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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
way you make plans, the way you think about the future. I mean, if you if you look at
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:51:10.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
your own personal rich experience, yes, you can understand, okay, eventually, I died as
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:51:15.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
people I love that have died. So surely, I will die and it hurts and so on. But like,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
he sure doesn't. It's so easy to get lost in feeling like this is going to go on forever.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah, it's a little bit like the people who say they don't believe in free will, right?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I mean, you can say that but but when you go to a restaurant, you still have to pick
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a soup and stuff. So right, so so I don't know if I know I've actually seen that that
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
happened at lunch with a with a well known philosopher and he didn't believe in free
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:51:46.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
will and the other waitress came around and he was like, Well, let me see. I was like,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
What are you doing here? You're gonna choose a sandwich, right? So it's I think it's one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of those things. I think you can know that, you know, you're not going to live forever.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But you can't you can't. It's not practical to live that way unless you know, so you buy
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
insurance and then you do some stuff like that. But but but mostly, you know, I think
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you just you just live as if as if as if you can make plans.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
We talked about all kinds of life. We talked about all kinds of embodied minds. What do
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you think is the meaning of it all? What's the meaning of all the biological lives we've
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
been talking about here on Earth? Why are we here?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't know that that's a that that's a well posed question other than the existential
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
question you post before.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Is that question hanging out with the question of what is consciousness and there at retreat
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
somewhere? Not sure because sipping pina coladas and because they're ambiguously defined.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Maybe I'm not sure that any of these things really ride on the correctness of our scientific
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
understanding. But I mean, just just for an example, right? I've always found I've always
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
found it weird that people get really worked up to find out realities about their their
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
bodies, for example. Right. You've seen them. Ex Machina. Right. And so there's this great
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
scene where he's cutting his hand to find out, you know, a piece full of cock. Now,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to me, right? If if I open up and I find out and I find a bunch of cogs, my conclusion
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is not, oh, crap, I must not have true cognition. That sucks. My conclusion is, wow, cogs can
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have true cognition. Great. So right. So. So it seems to me, I guess I guess I'm with
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Descartes on this one, that whatever whatever the truth ends up being of of of how is what
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is consciousness, how it can be conscious? None of that is going to alter my primary
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
experience, which is this is what it is. And if and if a bunch of molecular networks can
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
do it, fantastic. If it turns out that there's a there's a non corporeal, you know, so great.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
We can we'll study that, whatever. But but the fundamental existential aspect of it is,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, if somebody if somebody told me today that, yeah, yeah, you were created yesterday
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and all your memories are, you know, sort of fake, you know, kind of like like like Boltzmann
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
brains, right. And the human, you know, human skepticism, all that. Yeah. OK. Well, so so
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but but here I am now. So so it's the experience. It's primal, so like that's the that's the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing that matters. So the the backstory doesn't matter. I think so. I think so. From a first
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:54:31.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
person perspective, now from a third person, like scientifically, it's all very interesting.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
From a third person perspective, I could say, wow, that's that's amazing that that this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
happens and how does it happen and whatever. But from a first person perspective, I could
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:54:43.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
care less. Like I just it's just what I've what I learned from any of these scientific
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
facts is, OK, well, I guess then that's that that then I guess that's what is sufficient
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to to give me my, you know, amazing first person perspective. I think if you dig deeper
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and deeper and get a get surprising answers to why the hell we're here, it might give
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you some guidance on how to live. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. That would be nice. On the one
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
hand, you might be right, because on the one hand, if I don't know what else could possibly
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
give you that guidance. Right. So so you would think that it would have to be that or you
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
would do it would have to be science because there isn't anything else. So so that's so
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
maybe on the other hand, I am really not sure how you go from any, you know, what they call
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
from an is to an odd right from any factual description of what's going on. This goes
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
back to the natural. Right. Just because somebody says, oh, man, that's that's completely not
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
natural. It's never happened on Earth before. I'm not impressed by that whatsoever. I think
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think whatever hazard hasn't happened, we are now in a position to do better if we can.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Right. Well, this also because you said there's science and there's nothing else. There it's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's really tricky to know how to intellectually deal with a thing that science doesn't currently
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:56:03.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
understand. Right. So like, the thing is, if you believe that science solves everything,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you can too easily in your mind think our current understanding, like, we've solved
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:56:22.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
everything. Right. Right. Right. Like, it jumps really quickly to not science as a mechanism
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as a as a process, but more like science of today. Like, you could just look at human
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
history and throughout human history, just physicists and everybody would claim we've
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:56:43.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
solved everything. Sure. Sure. Like, like, there's a few small things to figure out.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And we basically solved everything. Were in reality, I think asking, like, what is the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:56:53.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
meaning of life is resetting the palette of like, we might be tiny and confused and don't
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have anything figured out. It's almost going to be hilarious a few centuries from now when
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they look back how dumb we were. Yeah, I 100% agree. So when I say science and nothing else,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I certainly don't mean the science of today because I think overall, I think we are we
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
know very little. I think most of the things that we're sure of now are going to be, as
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you said, are going to look hilarious down the line. So I think we're just at the beginning
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of a lot of really important things. When I say nothing but science, I also include
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the kind of first person, what I call science that you do. So the interesting thing about
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think about consciousness and studying consciousness and things like that in the first person is
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
unlike doing science in the third person, where you as the scientist are minimally changed
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
by it, maybe not at all. So when I do an experiment, I'm still me, there's the experiment, whatever
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I've done, I've learned something, so that's a small change. But but overall, that's it.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
In order to really study consciousness, you will you are part of the experiment, you will
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
be altered by that experiment, right? Whatever, whatever it is that you're doing, whether
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:58:10.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's some sort of contemplative practice or, or some sort of psychoactive, you know, whatever.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
You are now you are now your own experiment, and you are right. And so I consider I fold
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that in, I think that's that's part of it. I think that exploring our own mind and our
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:58:26.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
own consciousness is very important. I think much of it is not captured by what currently
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:58:29.960
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is third person science for sure. But ultimately, I include all of that in science, with a capital
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
S in terms of like a, a rational investigation of both first and third person aspects of
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
our world.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
We are our own experiment, as beautifully put. And when when two systems get to interact
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:58:50.300
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with each other, that's the kind of experiment. So I'm deeply honored that you would do this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
experiment with me today. Thanks so much. I'm a huge fan of your work. Likewise, thank
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you for doing everything you're doing. I can't wait to see the kind of incredible things
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:59:07.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you build. So thank you for talking. Really appreciate being here. Thank you.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:59:13.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Michael Levin. To support this podcast,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species. From the war of nature, from famine and death,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the most exalted object which we're capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:59:35.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
higher animals directly follows. There's grandeur in this view of life, with its several
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:59:41.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
powers having been originally breathed into a few forms, or into one, and that whilst
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:59:47.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed laws of gravity, from its most
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
simpler beginning, endless forms, most beautiful and most wonderful, have been and are being
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
evolved. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.
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