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[speaker001:] Okay. Um welcome to our second meeting. This is the functional design meeting. And I hope you all had a good individual working time. Okay, let's get started. Okay, here's the agenda for the meeting. After the opening um I am going to fulfil the role of secretary, take the meeting minutes. And we're gonna have three presentations, one from each of you. Then we're gonna discuss some new project requirements. Um gonna come to a decision on the functions of the remote control. And then we're gonna close up the meeting. And we're gonna do this all in about forty minutes. [gap] Okay. First I want to discuss the goals of this meeting. First we need to determine the user requirements and the question that we can ask ourselves is what needs and desires are to be fulfilled by this remote control. And then we're going to determine the technical functions, what is the effect of the apparatus, what actually is it supposed to do, what do people pick up the remote and use it for. And then lastly we're going to determine its working design, how exactly will it perform its functions, that's the whole technical side of [disfmarker] 'Kay I'll just give you a minute, 'cause it looks like you're making some notes. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] 'Kay. Oh, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] well let's go ahead and, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [gap] back, previous. So what I wanna do right now is hear from all three of you, on your research that you just did. Who would like to start us off? [speaker003:] I don't mind going first. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Okay. Um do you have a PowerPoint or no? [speaker003:] Yeah, it's in the [disfmarker] should be in the m Project. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Do you want us to do our PowerPoints now or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You know you could you could do it yourself actually. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] Did you send it? [speaker001:] Save it in the project documents. [speaker003:] Put it in Project Documents, yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. Mm-mm-mm. This one? [speaker003:] Sure. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. Great. [speaker003:] Okay. Um well, the function [vocalsound] of a remote control, as what uh we've been informed, is basically to send messages to the television set, for example, switch it on, switch it off, go to this channel, go to channel nine, turn the volume up, etcetera. Um some of the considerations is just um for example the what it needs to include it's the numbers, you know, zero to nine, so you can move to a channel, the power button on slash off, the channel going up and down, volume going up and down, and then mute, a mute function. And then functions for VHS, DVD, for example, play, rewind, fast-forward, stop, pause, enter. And enter would be for like, you know, the menus. [vocalsound] And then other menus for DV as well as TV, whether that means like um we can go and decide the brightness of the screen, things like that, all the more complicated functions of menus. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] And we can decide if that's what we want, [gap], um if we want to include that on the remote, if that's something that would stay on the TV itself, for example. [speaker001:] Okay. Okay. [speaker003:] These are two examples. Um and you can see on the left, it's got a lot more buttons, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and I don't know if you can read it, but it says, step, go to, freeze, um slow, repeat, program, mute, and so those are some of the buttons and so it gives you an idea of s one example. And then on the right, it's a lot more simpler, it's got volume, it's got the play the like circle set, which is play, rewind, but it's also what is [disfmarker] fast-forward is also like next on a menu. So you have functions that are d uh duplicating. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] And you have a mute button and then the numbers and the eject, and the power button. So that gives you two different kinds, a more complex and more simple version. Okay. [speaker001:] Ready. [speaker003:] And then lastly, it's just the questions that we want to consider like what functions do we want it to include, and how simple, complex it should be? And what functions it needs to complete. Uh, what are needed to complete insulation process, 'cause, you know, that's something that also has to be considered and it's gonna be hopefully a one-time thing, when you set it up it should be set to go, but we have to include the functions that can allow it to set up i in the first place. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] So that's it. [speaker001:] Alright. Very good presentation. Thank you. You speak with such authority on the matter. [speaker003:] Mm. Left. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. Who would like to um follow that one up? Now, that we've discussed [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I can go. [speaker001:] Okay. Do you want me to run it or you wanna [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, you should run it. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] Functional requirements. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Mm yes. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Alright. Now we have Courtney with the functional requirements. [speaker004:] Yes, okay so we tested a hundred subjects in our lab, and we just we watched them and we also made them fill out a questionnaire, and we found that the [vocalsound] users are not typically happy with current remote controls. Seventy five percent think they're ugly. Eighty percent want [disfmarker] they've [disfmarker] are willing to spend more, which is good news for us um if we make it look fancier, and basically w we just need something that really I mean there's some other points up there, but they [disfmarker] it needs to be snazzy and it [disfmarker] but yet simple. So that's really what we need to do. [speaker003:] [gap] Wait. [speaker004:] And we need we need it to be simple, yet it needs to be high-tech looking. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And that meaning what? [speaker004:] Like [disfmarker] They like I guess use the buttons a lot. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] I don't know. It's from my uh research. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay, what do you m [speaker004:] My team wasn't very clear. [speaker003:] Only use ten percent of the buttons. [speaker001:] Oh, I'm sorry. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] That's okay. [speaker001:] What do you mean by um the current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user, like they have to press the buttons. [speaker004:] I I think it's like the engineering versus user, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] whereas like the engineering she showed that the engineering ones are more complex [speaker001:] Oh, right. [speaker004:] and users don't really need all of the buttons that are contained on there, because they only use ten percent of the buttons really. [speaker001:] The buttons. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. Yeah. Okay. [speaker002:] We only use ten per cent of our brains. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Good point. [speaker001:] It works. [speaker004:] It's a necessary evil. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Ready for the next slide? [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [vocalsound] And so people say that they typically lose it, as you yourself know, because you probably lose your remote control all the time, [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] much like any small appliance like a cellphone, [speaker003:] Lost. [speaker004:] and they [disfmarker] we need something simple, because most people, well thirty four percent say that it's just too much time to learn how to use a new one, and we don't want to go [disfmarker] we don't want to vary too far from the normal standard remote, [speaker003:] S [speaker004:] but I mean they do need to be able to identify it, and RSI, I'm not very sure what that is. [speaker001:] It's okay. It's very important. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yes, it is important for the remote control world. [speaker003:] Wait, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] is that like your [disfmarker] ergonomics like your hand movements or something? [speaker004:] Sh [speaker001:] Could be, yeah. [speaker004:] Uh possibly. [speaker002:] Do we really need t to provide more information on what RSI is? [speaker003:] Like [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker004:] Uh yeah, that's what my web site said, I [speaker003:] Channel, volume, power. [speaker004:] don't know. [speaker001:] I think that's a pretty good guess though. [speaker004:] Yeah, I would assume so. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I think we're supposed to know it as remote control experts. [speaker003:] It's like if you're holding it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. It's okay. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] But also s so the channel, the volume and the power buttons are the most important on our company website you can find like the specific statistics concerning to how much each button is used, but those are the definitely the top ones. [speaker001:] Okay. Next slide? [speaker004:] Yes. And so personally I think that we need a modern eye-catching design, but it it really needs to be simple. So saying from y your slide, your presentation, the engineering versus the user-specified remotes, I think that we should go with something that's more user-friendly. [speaker001:] User-friendly. [speaker004:] Where the engineering ones, the boxes, tend to make it look more complicated than it really is. Um the functionality of the product really needs to be considered as to like what type of buttons do we really need on it. And it needs to be open to a wide range of consumers, so even though we need a small number of buttons, we also need to take in [disfmarker] like are most people going to be using it for a DVD player, a TiVo, what what exactly are we using it for, as well as the age range. So we need a hip, but not a corny marketing scheme for promoting our product. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] And also we found [disfmarker] our team found that speech recognition is [disfmarker] it's like an up-and-coming thing they really [disfmarker] consumers are really interested in it, and since our findings found that people are willing to pay more money for a remote for it to be more high-class we could consider it. [speaker001:] And so just to [disfmarker] just to clarify by speech recognition you mean they would say, channel five, and the thing would go to channel five? [speaker004:] I guess so, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] [gap] to just say, where are you, and thing beeps, you know. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh, that'd be lovely. [speaker004:] Yeah, I guess we can interpret it like, we can just try out different types of speech recognition within our remote programme. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Didn't they [disfmarker] um didn't our rival companies manufacture a remote that you would press the button on the TV and it would [disfmarker] the remote would beep so if you have lost it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's kinda like what the remote phone used to do. [speaker001:] Mm. Oh, yeah, that's true. [speaker003:] You know like go to the base. [speaker001:] We could definitely include that if we wanted to. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] If it's within our price. Okay. Are we ready for our last presentation, Amber? [speaker002:] Yeah, I'm just trying to move it. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] 'Kay. I think it should be there, working design. [speaker003:] Working design. [speaker001:] There we go. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker002:] 'Kay. Uh I didn't get a chance to complete this one, 'cause some of the tools that I was given were frustrating. [speaker001:] Oh my bad. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh that's fine. [speaker002:] Uh okay, so method method of our design, I think I just start listing th some of the things that we actually need to put into this. [speaker003:] Help me. [speaker002:] We need a power source, we're gonna need a smart chip if we're gonna make it multi-functional. Um extra functions will probably need an additional chip. Either that or the smart chip will have to be extremely smart. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] What exactly is a smart chip? [speaker002:] Usually a smart chip is just a chip that's been programmed and designed so that it can complete a fair range of functions. [speaker003:] Well, how much extra would the additional chip be? Is that gonna push us over our production costs? [speaker002:] I wouldn't think so, 'cause we could probably get it from like, in bulk, from a a newer company. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] And they tend to sell their chips pretty cheap. [speaker001:] Okay. Ready? [speaker002:] Um yep, nothing here. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] That's okay. [speaker002:] Um power source, I figured, batteries, 'cause they're easily available. Typically a remote has either two double As or four triple As, sometimes three. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] Uh it really kinda depends on the size of the actual remote itself. Um a large on-off button, [vocalsound] demographically we're moving towards an older generation of people, so a large on-off button would probably be good. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Selection button for various entertainment devices, so you want something that will permit you to select the DVD player or the TV or the stereo system. Um smart chip that perverts [disfmarker] uh that permits, sorry, universal application again, something that'll allow us to skip over between devices, and that's kinda it. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] Uh this is my fifty second design. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Power source over here. We're gonna have a switch obviously between the power source and the rest of it, and you're gonna need the switch. Um extra bulb could just be for flashiness, um subcomponent which would be like a way of diverting the power to different parts of the the device. Um the chip and of course the infra-red bulb, so it can communicate with the various devices that it needs to talk to. [speaker004:] So what exactly we are looking at, is this like the front of the remote? [speaker002:] This is just like a rough schematic. [speaker001:] So this would be the front? [speaker002:] So this is the internal workings. [speaker001:] So the red would be the front of the remote though, right? [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's gonna be what's communicating with the TV, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] but the other bulb, I think, is good to just to indicate, I'm doing something, it's sort of like a reassurance. [speaker001:] The l [vocalsound] the light up kind of [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Like that we know the battery's working. [speaker002:] Yeah, so you don't have to stare at that infra-red, 'cause you know when the battery starts dying in your remote currently, you have to actually stare at that bulb and go, okay, when I push this button, is it working? [speaker001:] Yeah. Hmm. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] It'd probably be lighting up the key too, [speaker002:] We can skip that whole thing. [speaker001:] right? [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker002:] So you can put it in the dark. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] The buttons. [speaker004:] Yeah, and that's good. We should make it glow in the dark. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. Yeah, definitely. 'Kay nex R Ready? [speaker002:] Yeah, that's it. [speaker001:] 'Kay, any p 'Kay? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm 'kay. [speaker001:] Anything you wanna add for personal preferences though, you f you said already that we needed a large on-off button, you think. [speaker002:] I think that that's a good idea, [speaker001:] Anything else? [speaker002:] because you know that's one of the most important buttons. [speaker003:] Just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Well, should it be larger buttons in general, you know like uh the examples that I had, they were swi quite small. So should we try and go for something that has l larger buttons? [speaker004:] I think we should. Like I think that would be in a as in [disfmarker] like in [disfmarker] for the design, sorry, um. I think we should definitely go with buttons that don't look like a normal remote, 'cause most remotes have small square buttons, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] I think we should do something like maybe bigger and round like bubbles. [speaker003:] Ovals. Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. Okay, let's talk about all of our [disfmarker] We'll come to decision later about all the components that we need to include, let's um wrap up this one, and [vocalsound] I'm gonna go back to my PowerPoint, 'cause we need to discuss the new project requirements which you might've already seen flashed up on the screen a bit earlier. [vocalsound] Wait, come back. Alright. Sorry, let's go through this. Alright. Here we go. New product requirements. First it's only going to be a TV remote. We're trying not to over-complicate things. So no DVD, no TiVo, no stereo. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker001:] It's not gonna be multi-functional. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] Hey. And we th need to promote our company more, so we need to somehow include our colour and our company slogan on the remote. We're trying to get our name out there in the world. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] Okay. And you know what teletext is? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] in States we don't have it, but um it's like they just have this channel where just has news and weather, kind of sports, [speaker003:] I know. [speaker004:] What is it? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] it's very um bland looking, it's just text on the screen, [speaker003:] Yeah, it's like black, black and white kind of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] not even [disfmarker] Yeah, just black with just text. [speaker004:] Like running along the bottom? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You can also get the kind of the TV guide so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It'll give you the sports. [speaker004:] Wait, is it like the Weather Channel where it's got like the ticker running on the bottom or something? [speaker001:] Kind of. [speaker003:] Except the entire screen. [speaker002:] It's the entire screen is just running information at random. [speaker001:] Yeah it's the whole screen. [speaker003:] You can pick sports, you can pick the news, you entertainment, [speaker001:] So anyway [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Seemingly. [speaker003:] you know it's like [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So it's like a separate channel from like what you're watching? [speaker001:] Right. Right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But it's becoming out-dated now, because of the Internet. Nobody needs to go to the teletext channel to check the news, [vocalsound] and we have twenty four hour news channels now too, so [disfmarker] Those are our new product requirements. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Okay. So, do we have to include the company colour within that? [speaker001:] Alright. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's part of the logo. Okay. [speaker003:] Company colour being yellow. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] What we're going to do right now is come to some decisions, definitive that we can all agree on, about um the target group and the functions and just definite things that we need to do and then we'll close up the meeting. So. Alright. [gap] Whatever. Okay. So our target group is [disfmarker] You mentioned um older people? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Would it just be universal for everyone, you think? Because I think even if something has large buttons, as long as they are not childishly large, like even technically [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's gonna make it nicer. Yeah. [speaker001:] non-technically challenged people are gonna use it. I mean they want something user-friendly, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm well, even if we kept the regular standard size of remote, if we reduced the buttons down to the ones that people are saying that they use the most often and a couple extra, 'cause they're saying they only use ten per cent of them, [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] then we should be able to accommodate fairly decent sized buttons. [speaker001:] Okay, so we want um for our target group would we say, I mean, young and old, all age ranges, all um, not kids obviously, right? Or kids? [speaker004:] No, kids need to know how to use a remote, I would think. [speaker002:] Most of them will intuitively pick it up though. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] They gotta change between Disney Channel, Cartoon Network. [speaker001:] Okay, so we're going to go anywhere from kids to adult in the age range [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, I think we need it all. [speaker001:] Um what about technic technical um specifications, like how how technically literate are these people who are going to be using our remote? [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] Um I would say we should say dumber than the average person. [speaker003:] We should go for the lowest denominator. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right, okay. [speaker003:] High school educated. [speaker001:] So so they need no technical experience to operate [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [gap] how 'bout little to no, because there is no way that you are gonna be able to make it no. [speaker001:] Okay. And we also need to determine the specific functions of this, just to get it all out on paper. So we said it needs to send messages to the TV, needs to change the channel, turn on and off, just basic simple stuff like this. So if you have something just say it and we'll add it to my meeting minutes. [speaker003:] Well it's channel, on-off button, volume, mute. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm, volume. [speaker004:] And channel. Yeah. Those are the most important ones. [speaker001:] Right. And we wanna keep um [disfmarker] I'll make a note here that we wanna keep the number of buttons down. Correct, because people only use ten percent. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Hey, what else? [speaker003:] Um. [speaker001:] Um. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Do we want this thing to be able to be found easily? [speaker001:] I think so. What do you [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Sure, yeah. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] A finding kind of device or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And [speaker004:] I need [disfmarker] we we need a like homing device. [speaker002:] like if this is gonna get lost underneath the coach, how are we going to accommodate the quick ability to find it? [speaker001:] Yeah, ho homing device. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Oh right yeah okay. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. [speaker003:] Tracking. [speaker004:] Because people really are looking for a remote that's more high-tech. [speaker001:] Okay. Right. [speaker002:] What if we gave it a charger? And on the charger, just like a phone, like you get a portable phone and it's got a charger, [speaker003:] But you got a base. [speaker002:] and if you d leave your phone somewhere, you push the button to find it, and it finds th the phone beeps for you. [speaker004:] Do you think people'll really go for that though? Because [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's useful for the remote phone. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Would that add to our costs at all, I wonder? [speaker004:] I would think so, because you'd have to develop a base. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Well, if you have the base, you could start putting in a charger and then you have a different kind of battery. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Rechargeable batteries are cheaper usually. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. I I think we can make a decision about that later. Uh we'll still put that as a point that we need to discuss. So that would include battery source [disfmarker] Power source rather. Is it going to have a charger, or is it going to be run strictly off batteries? And we also need to deal with the issue you mentioned of speech recognition, if we want that. [speaker004:] Right. Do w [speaker003:] Well, then we could [disfmarker] If we have the speech recognition then we can start aiming at a like another kind of more handicapped disabled uh demo demographic. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Well, th there's the people who desire speech recognition, there's the different demog demographics have different desires, I don't know if you guys ge [speaker001:] You could um [speaker004:] It wouldn't copy onto the the thing 'cause it's black, [speaker001:] [disfmarker] we could hook it up. Oh. [speaker004:] but all the different age groups have different desires for speech recognition. So [vocalsound] basically older people don't really care. It's really the people twenty five to thirty five. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] I feel those are the people that really watch a lot of TV though. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] They're the ones that get addicted to soap operas and [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And if and if we introduced it when they're this age, they're going to probably always buy a remote that has [disfmarker] [speaker004:] just sitcoms and stuff. Right. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well, then then do you put the voice recognition [disfmarker] do you put the r like receiver on the actual television, in the base, or in the actual remote, 'cause then you've already got remote in your hand, why you just gonna speak to the remote, [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] whereas if you just speak in general and you don't have to have the remote in your hand and like talk at it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [gap] and the speech recognition could be part of the lost and found device, too. If we said, find remote, locate remote, or something. [speaker004:] Right. [speaker001:] A certain phrase then it could beep. I dunno. Just throwing it out there. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Still [gap] fifteen minutes. Um. [speaker001:] Okay, anything else we wanna discuss? [speaker003:] Well, do we wanna include the numbers like zero through nine? Can we conceive of leaving them out? [speaker001:] Um. [speaker004:] Wait, on the remote itself? [speaker003:] Yeah, like you have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, zero. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] Well, we definitely need those. [speaker001:] How how, yeah, how would you leave those out? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well, I don't know, I mean, if you can [gap] like well [disfmarker] I don't know, [speaker001:] Unless you could say the channel. [speaker003:] if there's just a way of leaving them out? [speaker002:] I think people would find that too foreign. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's true. [speaker004:] You definitely need [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And also remember that in this day in age we need, you know, like a hundred button, too. I used to have a remote that did not even go up past like fifty. [vocalsound] So I couldn't [disfmarker] whenever I got cable, I had to get a new TV. [speaker002:] It's when we get satellite. [speaker001:] Mm. [gap] get your own remote, or digital cable. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Um. I guess, we're gonna discuss the project financing later, making sure that we can fit all of the stuff that we want to on our budget. Um. [speaker002:] Yeah, 'cause I don't have any material pricing information available to me at the moment, so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] 'Kay. And don't forget we need to include the colour of our company and the logo. [speaker003:] The colour being yellow? [speaker004:] Wait. [speaker001:] I'm guessing. [speaker003:] And how do we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I feel like a ye I feel like a yellow one would be too garish. [speaker001:] And the RR. [speaker002:] R the double R. [speaker001:] We could just have the logo in yellow, [speaker003:] Can't make it entirely [disfmarker] [speaker001:] or maybe a yellow light for the keys. [speaker002:] Or is the l [speaker004:] Or put like stripes, oh yeah, yellow lights. [speaker002:] Yeah, [vocalsound] yellow could be and it could [disfmarker] doesn't have to be huge. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well if you have like a [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Hang on. If you have this sort of strip kind of down at the bottom [gap] the base of it, just like yellow with the RR. [speaker001:] Right. So we've simplified, we don't need all those um play, fast-forward, rewind, [speaker003:] Right, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] or no menu buttons. So we've pretty much pared it down to on-off, volume, mute, channel up and down, um the numbers [disfmarker] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um can we go back to [disfmarker] I'm gonna look really quickly back at those [speaker003:] Two examples. [speaker001:] examples [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and see if there is anything. Which one is yours, technical functions [speaker003:] Oh, it's a [disfmarker] [speaker001:] or functional requirement? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah, audi audio settings and screen settings, we need those like audio settings mono, stereo, pitch, screen settings like brightness, colour, or do we just want that accessed accessed from the television itself? [speaker001:] The TV. I think that that's fine just for the TV. I mean how often does the average user need to do that kind of stuff? [speaker003:] Well, the other option is sort of like down at the bottom, like farther away, you just have this sort of box inset where it's like the buttons that you don't use as much, but occasionally you will use. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah, 'cause we need to [disfmarker] we definitely need to have buttons for like sub-titles and things like that. [speaker003:] and so it's like [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It's 'cause the foreign film market is expanding and stuff, and like on television like I know f k living in Los Angeles it's tons of Spanish network television if it has English sub-titles it's definitely helpful. [speaker001:] Couldn't we do that all through one button, something, a menu button, that pops up with a menu on the TV that says, you know, audio, video, whatever, language, [speaker003:] I don't [disfmarker] well, I don't know. [speaker001:] you know? [speaker003:] Right. [speaker004:] So we need up, down, and side-to-side buttons. [speaker003:] Well, that could be [disfmarker] [speaker001:] For the menus. [speaker003:] No you could just double up with like the channel or the volume buttons. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] That's true. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] Channel is just up and down. [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] And then add a [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Something that looks mayb you know. [speaker004:] Such as, yeah, the one the one over there on the left the engineering centred one. [speaker001:] Y right, right right right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That one? [speaker003:] So we just have it like [disfmarker] add a menu button then for the various things needed, [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] including v voice recognition if we have any like settings for voice recognition now [speaker001:] In the middle perhaps. [speaker003:] included in the menu. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker004:] Ooh, I just got an idea for a design. [speaker001:] [gap] good. Anybody have anything else they'd like to bring up in this meeting? [speaker002:] I had something, but I forgot. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [gap] get out of here. Let's go back to the meeting closure then and see what we need to do next. Mm. Alright. After this meeting we're gonna be sent a questionnaire and summary again which we need to reply to that e-mail. And then we're gonna have lunch break. And after lunch thirty minutes of individual work time. Um I'm gonna put the minutes [disfmarker] I put the minutes for the first meeting already in the project documents folder, if you'd like to review them. And I'm gonna type up the minutes for this one as well. Um here's what we're each going to do. The ID is going to work on the components concept, um UID the user interface concept, and you're going to do some trend watching. 'Kay. Specific instructions will be sent to you by your personal coach. And if anybody has anything they would like to add? No? Okay, well, this meeting is officially over. Thank you all.

[speaker001:] Afternoon guys. It's gonna be [gap]. [speaker004:] Rock and roll. [speaker001:] Oh. [vocalsound] [gap] 'Kay. [speaker004:] So do we need to re-train Mike on how to put his mic on? [speaker003:] Think s [speaker001:] We may do. [speaker004:] Okay, can he get it all by himself this time? [speaker001:] I dunno, I'm feeling like a big boy. [speaker003:] Mm. Pro [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] Probably not, 'cause he's 'S been listening to [gap] too much. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] He's getting retarded. Yay. [speaker004:] I believe I can fly. [speaker002:] Alright well we got some exciting stuff for you guys. [speaker003:] Or not. [speaker002:] Or not. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Just what I needed was something exciting. Remember, I'm an old man. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] 'Kay, ready to go? [speaker002:] All ready. [speaker001:] 'Kay so we've got our conceptual design meeting. [speaker003:] Apparently I'm old as well. [speaker001:] Hopefully we've all got exciting ideas now. [speaker004:] Thirty's really young, eh? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] We do. [speaker001:] Uh k exciting ideas. 'Kay so here's our agenda our agenda. Um [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I'm gonna open. I'm gonna talk for a bit about what we're gonna do. I'm gonna take some notes. We're gonna all do a presentation, and then hopefully we're gonna make some decisions now. [vocalsound] Yep. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker001:] Well when I say hopefully, we have to. So I'm gonna let you guys talk before we make decisions. And does anyone really want to go first? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I guess I'll go first. [speaker001:] You p two? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Component, I think. Yeah. [speaker001:] Components design. [speaker002:] Yep that's it. [speaker003:] Presented by name. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] My name is [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] Jose he man is. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Your name is name? [speaker002:] My name is name. [speaker001:] Huh hi name. [speaker003:] My name is Inigo Montoya. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You killed my father. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Sorry [speaker003:] Prepare to die. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I did this in a bit of a rush. [speaker004:] N name. [speaker002:] So so here's a look inside your really old-looking remote control. [speaker001:] Right. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Um you've got [vocalsound] a printed [vocalsound] a printed uh circuit board here, and you've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber [vocalsound] nubbies into these little holes that activate [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I've [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah we've all broken a remote control. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So you've also got um [disfmarker] you've got your chip here, your batteries here, and some sorta electronics. Um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I just love you tech guys, huh. [speaker003:] Yeah there's a thingy and a dingy and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] You press this and it does th [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah y do jabber [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] so you've got [disfmarker] here's here's a transistor, and this amplifies your signal, um you've got the LED here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board. Um you've got a couple diodes here for I don't know who and whatnot [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I dunno who and whatnot. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] exactly. [speaker003:] Nah. [speaker002:] So um we've got a [disfmarker] i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this example here, this is a eighteen pin um uh chip [vocalsound] I dunno. [speaker004:] P Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh it's two double A batteries. This is pretty standard remote. So here are options for our power sources. You can use a basic battery, which we've already discussed, um [vocalsound] th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or something like that. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] 'Kay. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I wanna change that [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] I don't know if that's really [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I I gotta I gotta flashlight, and uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I don't know we got some qu crazy guys down there in that department so [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] You shake it. [speaker004:] yeah but it's interesting 'cause you shake it like this [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] Like this [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So that's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy, [speaker004:] And that's on the camera [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] so it's like that flashlight where you have to shake it [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker002:] Uh we've got solar cells, which I don't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night [vocalsound] which doesn't make a lot of sense. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. [speaker002:] And finally we've got our cradle o our power cradle idea. [speaker001:] Okay so we basically have battery versus cradle here? [speaker002:] M battery versus cradle I think is [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] I like the kinetic. [speaker001:] So we have battery versus cradle [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I g I I figured you would. Yes. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] It could be fun [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] It's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty, just to be actually serious for a minute here, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you could [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well it is it is more uh [disfmarker] I mean it is more eco-friendly than the than the cradle 'cause you're still using power off the grid with the cradle. So um [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. [speaker002:] our case design. We have uh choices in materials and choices in the general shapes that we can do. Our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic, a rubber latex type thing, uh wood, or titanium. If we go with titanium we're gonna be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it's tough to shape the titanium, and uh [disfmarker] Yeah pers [speaker001:] Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche, wouldn't it. [speaker002:] I think wood i [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It it it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Nah. [speaker002:] I I can't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote, it's just anti-technology really, you know. [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker001:] Okay. Hmm. [speaker004:] Uh uh to me in a marketing sense it's not it's not relative. We can we can o we can uh accentuate whatever [disfmarker] whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it. [speaker002:] Right. And what we may be able to do, and I think this might be the best option is to combine some [disfmarker] a couple of these. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell, to make it um to mak uh like a thick plastic inner shell and a t um kind of a [disfmarker] to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable, and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than the plastic. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Do you get a good grip on the rubber? [speaker002:] Yeah um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah okay. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And if you make it from that super rubber, when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] You don't even need to lean down to get it. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is [disfmarker] w we we'll have a lot more um options just in terms of shape [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want. So um [disfmarker] and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] But basically these are [vocalsound] curved and double-curved I I believe that the tech department, in their um [vocalsound] in their [vocalsound] message to me, that they were referring to the number of th curves in the bottom. I have no idea exactly what they're talking about, but that's what they told me, [vocalsound] uncurved, flat, curved, or double-curved. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I would guess this like this pen would be kinda like a double-curved, where it's curved on m m multiple axes, right? I think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved in two axes [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] or surfaces. I have no idea. [speaker001:] I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because a double curve rather than a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm yeah that's [disfmarker] yeah that's what I see. [speaker002:] Oh okay oh like a wave, okay. [speaker001:] yeah that's what [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah that's what I see also. [speaker002:] Alright that makes sense okay. Um okay, with the interface we have the following options, we can u we can use push buttons, we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button, and LCD display, [speaker004:] Ooh. [speaker002:] or multiple scrolling wheels. Um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh [disfmarker] has at his disposal to put together a user interface. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] For electronics, we have these very technical um [vocalsound] descriptions here. A simple chip, which is the least expensive, but I have no numbers to give you, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] a regular chip, which is [vocalsound] like the medium porridge [disfmarker] the [vocalsound] medium expense uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] D do we have actually any concept of what the difference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip? [speaker002:] Yes the difference is, with a simple chip [disfmarker] a simple chip will operate [disfmarker] oh why doesn't this scroll up? Previous previous, okay. A simple chip is required to operate push buttons. Um [vocalsound] an advanced chip is required to to operate um the LCD display, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] and it didn't say specifically, but I I have a hunch that a regular chip is gonna be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So but yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah that makes sense. [speaker002:] That's the end of my presentation. [speaker001:] So presentation from [disfmarker] I guess design would go best. Next. Technical functions or interface concept? [speaker002:] I think [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh interface concept. [vocalsound] Very long presentation. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah that's it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yes, but it has your name on it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Well that doesn't bo bode well for it for it tats as well. Um so, somehow that thing's too big, but um [disfmarker] okay um our uh manufacturing division wanted the speech recognition. They say they could put it to work but um we don't think so. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] No. It it it [disfmarker] you'll be you know be affected by the by the other speech and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] If the TV is working, yeah. That's just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I mean it'll [disfmarker] if somebody says up in the middle of a television show, it's gonna change the channel. [speaker003:] Yeah and and fighting for the remote would not be fun anymore, [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] and I think that's one of the things we wanna keep. [speaker001:] But what if you actually had to press a button to make it recognize? So if you pressed it and went, up? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] That kinda would r d [speaker002:] Well then why don't you just press the up button? [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker001:] Man yeah. [speaker003:] That would kind of lose it. [speaker001:] But if it's just one thing with a button that you can just go [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's right. [speaker002:] Even still there's gonna be interf th there's there still will be interference from the TV. [speaker001:] Up. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It might not be it might not be completely confusing, [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. [speaker002:] but I think you'll still y it's still [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I don't think it's practical at all. I think it's a bad idea frankly. [speaker003:] Yeah so um taking that away, our uh [disfmarker] the the the rubber but rubber buttons are the more reliable [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. You guys know your stuff. [speaker003:] it's the the ones that would al would allow us to to market our product as being you know less prone to damage and more resistant to things like spillage of liquids over it or you know mistreat misuses as it happens to remote controls. Um as for the point that we making about losing it. Well, we wanna small r remote control one side because uh we want it to be cool and uh designed, but um apparently um market shows that bigger s bigger um remotes get less lost, [speaker002:] That I would believe. [speaker003:] about [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] But um yeah I think we we need to compromise between those two and somehow we'll do that. Somehow. Um so [vocalsound] the the [disfmarker] what I would propose is something more or less in the uh direction of what is to yo the right of that slide uh but without [disfmarker] with a l a less complicated um design, so the numbers, the volume control, and channel control, and teletext access. Uh the volume and channel control can just become those the the four button array as in if it was a round dial. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] And um if you just think about it as the one to the right but with the numbers and the four buttons plus maybe a centre one with teletext. [speaker001:] So we're suggesting doing a sorta scroll wheel thing for the volume? [speaker003:] Ye no it's not [speaker002:] That's not a scroll wheel. [speaker003:] i i it's just four buttons that are on a cross, [speaker001:] Nah. Oh okay okay. I see. [speaker003:] so that you ba basically can control all of the important tasks from that [gap] alone. [speaker002:] Right. Instead of play, stop, rewind, and fast forward there, that's up, down, louder, and quieter. [speaker001:] Uh, okay. Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah um yeah so I think we w we go for something mid-sized, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] so something looks good and uh is not too prone to get lost. That be it. [speaker001:] 'Kay. So on to [disfmarker] Y functional requirements or trend watching? [speaker004:] I dunno. [speaker002:] Trend watching has a later date there. [speaker004:] Trend watching I guess. Trend watching I believe. [speaker001:] [gap] forty six nineteen fifty seven. Yep. [speaker004:] See what it looks like. It's been so long. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker004:] Well [vocalsound] I don't know what to say. When I s when I see the [disfmarker] when I see the product I I I I don't wanna buy it. I see so many of 'em out there. There's nothing about that product that makes me wanna choose that product over other products that are out there. [speaker002:] Are you talking about the picture? [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker002:] That's not our that's not our b design, that's just a [disfmarker] that's just something he a a graphic he used to show you the layout of what the layout of the buttons might be like. [speaker004:] Okay. Okay. Okay 'cause 'cause right now I don't have too much to say about how to market this product because we don't have a product to market yet. And uh from from talking to Mike is that we have we have uh we can market a more expensive product now. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] That's what I understand so, [speaker001:] Upper management said yes. [speaker004:] hello. [speaker001:] Uh e excuse that, that's a bit of spam. [speaker004:] And and so [disfmarker] yeah I'm a I'm a little bit stuck right now in that what uh w what is it that I'm gonna market? Uh without special or increased marketable features I don't believe the product has a consumer demand. Uh I like the idea of of the scroll makin [vocalsound] there are so many people making these products at this price right now. What are we gonna do to make this one special and unique? [speaker002:] What's special and unique about a scroll? [speaker004:] Uh [vocalsound] well I don't [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's cool. [speaker004:] yeah it's [disfmarker] I I just see it as different. I don't say it's specially mm [disfmarker] I don't say it's special. Uh I say that it's different I [disfmarker] what I'm looking for as marketing is m give me something different. I give me a lower price, give me a higher price, give me some new technology, don't give me the same thing that everybody else is putting out there on the shelf it's f at the same price. I need something to market about this thing. We're we're a new firm. [speaker001:] I'd I'd say though that we [disfmarker] if we did make the decision to go with the cradle though, the then we have that as well, [speaker004:] What i [vocalsound] if when when we have [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but wi with a similar [disfmarker] [speaker004:] yeah when we when we have something like the cradle or or something give that's [disfmarker] as as a marketing standard [disfmarker] I need something to market, to make this product unique. [speaker002:] Well right I think the two big th points that we have so far are the [disfmarker] having the cradle and also having uh the um the actual design of the uh case itself having like this like rubber shell maybe with a plastic interior, [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] having it look really nice um and also be really durable. [speaker004:] Mm 'kay. Just remember when I made up this report I didn't have the information that we're discussing here. [speaker002:] Right yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Course. [speaker004:] And and so so uh yeah when we have a cradle, when we have some kind of design, so what I'm saying is, from my perspective, I don't have a product to market right now. Um uh my personal preference is that we make some adjustment in the cost, either lower or develop an integrated new technol technology. That's that is the next step, there's technology and then there is technology, which we're moving into the next phase. [speaker001:] Yeah 'cause that's [gap]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And so uh we're gonna have some new technology to enhance the marketability. Yeah uh again I'm not sold on the product because we don't have a product in my opinion yet. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] So I need a product. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. [speaker002:] Well let's get a product then. [speaker004:] I need a product to market. And I just [disfmarker] whatever product you guys put together, we'll find a way to market it. Tha that I'm not concerned with. [speaker001:] So now [disfmarker] [speaker004:] If you if you give me [disfmarker] if you give me a cut-out of what everybody else has then I need to I need to find a lower cost. [speaker001:] So our big [vocalsound] questions here really are cradle or not cradle? Do we go basic or do we go for features? Uh d does anyone really wanna do anything with the scroll wheel or should we ditch that off-hand first? [speaker002:] Well my question is what would the scroll wheel do? Function-wise, what does that do that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh but that was in your presentation [vocalsound] so wh what would you imagine it doing? [speaker004:] Yeah wh wh what's the [vocalsound] wh [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Well it's it's just another way to do the exact same thing that the buttons do. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Mm 'kay [speaker004:] Okay now what I see with the scroll wheel is everybody has buttons. [speaker003:] But would we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So from a marketing standpoint I have I have another door to walk through when we have something that's unique. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] If it creates something more complex or more expensive, then I don't know if that makes it uh a marketing necessity. But again, from a marketing perspective I want as much new and different about this thing as possible because we're we're co [vocalsound] it's a very competitive market. [speaker001:] What I understand about scroll wheels is they're they're quite expensive to to make. [speaker002:] Yeah. Th they are gonna be more expensive, [speaker001:] So I d [speaker002:] but on the other hand, I mean, it [disfmarker] I mean it is an alternative if if you think that's gonna sell some some uh you know [disfmarker] if if we're gonna make up the extra cost by extra sales I think maybe it's worth it to do it, but I mean I would just use [disfmarker] if I was gonna do this I would just use the scroll wheel for s channels up and channels down. I don't think volume [disfmarker] or do you think volume would be [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I dunno. I'll bet first in volume maybe. I dunno. [speaker002:] No we can [disfmarker] we can do multiple scroll wheels but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well I d I like the idea of basically focusing the [disfmarker] [vocalsound] my personal preference is focusing the p the product on the idea of the uh the case the the [vocalsound] uh dock to put it in [disfmarker] to to charge it. We can target like environmentally friendly ideas, that sorta things. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] It s i m makes it easy to market, [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] it's easy to differentiate the product, yeah so. [speaker004:] I think it's [disfmarker] that's right. I think so. [speaker001:] And if we we keep the rest in a format that is durable because th th the whole product's gonna need to be more durable th thus [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] because you're not going to be ditching it as often. It's gonna need to be more expensive because of the cradle. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] So if we can market it in terms of that [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker001:] and yeah well [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think we got some exclusivity in that, you know, we got something that nobody else has right now, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and and that means we can we can make some adjustments in the retail or wholesale price if we need to and it also can create it's own demand from it's uniqueness. [speaker001:] So our big decision then is like how do we do um like [vocalsound] [disfmarker] we have to decide on the details and we have to decide on well n not exactly the details, but d do we have uh [disfmarker] What type of casing? I personally like what you were saying about the plastic with the rubber. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. I'm thinking [disfmarker] yeah something like kinda almost like these pens, you know, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] where there's [disfmarker] you have plastic bits and then it's not really rubber but just kinda like a fused [disfmarker] the plastic with rubber on the outside. [speaker001:] Okay. Just a very thin sorta sheet for a a grip, sorta thing or for [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Well no ma yeah maybe a bit more then th is on here but ju just as a kind of an inspiration, these pens I think are are kind of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. So then if we [vocalsound] [disfmarker] d d do we want to do anything more basic with the [disfmarker] uh more advanced with the user interface in terms of do we want to go for [vocalsound] um buttons, or do we want [disfmarker] if we're ditching the scroll wheels do we want to go LCD? Do we want to give [disfmarker] do we want to have anything else on it? [speaker003:] It's only a TV. [speaker002:] Or from from my perspective I think LCD is a mistake because this is a universal remote and all you're doing [disfmarker] I mean it's [disfmarker] you're not gonna get any information back from the television, so the only information you can display on this remote is what channel you [vocalsound] just sent it at last and there's just not a lot of information, you know, there. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] It receives no information. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So I I don't see any reason for having an LCD 'cause it's an increased cost. Unless you can think of something interesting to do with it. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah right now there's [disfmarker] right now there's nothing coming out of the TV to receive, so you know unless technology changes and information starts coming out of the [disfmarker] a cable box or something there's no s I don't see the, [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] I don't see the necessity of an LCD either. Don't see it. [speaker001:] Okay so the question is now I guess we need t to decide on [disfmarker] well y you guys basically have to now go and figure out the details of this thing. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, what we need to know in terms of marketing and uh project management are are there any other questions that we need to answer now before you guys can go and build this? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] What what overall things have we not decided on? [speaker002:] Well we have to [disfmarker] I think for me it's still not exactly clear exactly what the inter user interface is gonna be. There's the scroll wheel, in or out? What do you guys like in the user interface? [speaker001:] I think maybe in terms of marketing, is that gonna make enough of a difference to justify the cost? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Again. Well I think it's it's [disfmarker] the more uniqueness you can bring to the product, the easier it is, I believe, for me to market. Uh again the push-buttons I I see are are everywhere. And so we can go with the same thing, but we're gonna be com competing in a in a broader market than if we go with something unique. You know the other thing I thought about was you know, do we go to something like this? Make a remote that doesn't look like a remote. It's just another [disfmarker] it's just a an idea, and I don't know [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well I dunno about like the flip-phone idea, because [vocalsound] I think, as far as durability th it's not a big [disfmarker] well maybe when it's closed. [speaker004:] I mean what I see [disfmarker] one of the things one of the things you brought up in an earlier presentation is, when you got children, [vocalsound] their their stuff gets inside the circuitry, they get dirty, they get messy with drinks and stuff. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] This [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] And what I keep throwing out there [disfmarker] I just keep throwing out ideas to try to make this thing look or act or in some way identify itself as unique or different. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] But you guys are the ones that have to c ultimately create the product within cost. [speaker001:] Yeah and I guess th th the question th [vocalsound] th that you're being asked right now is whether [disfmarker] is the dock enough of a unique feature to be able to go out and sell that a a as a a very different product, or do we really need the scroll wheel as well? Because the scroll wheel comes at quite a cost. [speaker004:] Oh okay phew. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I think you gotta g get into cost effectiveness. I think if you can have the base station with a with a locator, I think those are two very strong features, if that's something that can be integrated without a bunch of extra cost. [speaker002:] Well [disfmarker] The [disfmarker] [vocalsound] The locator's gonna require a radio transmitter, which will [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] That's gonna n is that gonna need a better chip as well? [speaker002:] Um [vocalsound] we're probably gonna have to go with a like a medium chip, s I would imagine. [speaker003:] No it's just different. [speaker002:] But we I we will need a receiver, an antenna. [speaker004:] Integrated, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So it's just uh I I think that's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It should be a really simple signal though so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I know personally that would be a very attractive feature, is to have a uh have a button I can push to find my remote control. [speaker001:] And it's presumably gonna need a little speaker in it or something like that as well to beep. [speaker002:] That's true yeah. [speaker001:] But I guess a little tiny speaker is gonna be quite cheap, it's not gonna need q quality, is it? It's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Oh yeah yeah. It'll be really cheap. [speaker004:] Or maybe you can like have a a smell-o-rama, you know you push a button and it s puts out a stink. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] You can [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Maybe not [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Makes your living room more fresh as you watch [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay we're doing well for time here. [speaker003:] S [speaker001:] Um we've got about another ten minutes. I think that uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So the scroll wheel, in or out? [speaker001:] Mm pr my personal preference is out. I don't think the cost is justified [vocalsound] for a little bit more uniqueness when we already have that, and I don't s think it's obvious and natural how it would be used. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah I think we have [disfmarker] like and it's not very usable and it will bring down the robustness of the whole thing, 'cause it's it it breaks down easier. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] For me I think the scroll wheel actually might not be so bad. I don't know exactly what the increased cost is gonna be, but I think he does have a point, i it might push somebody over the edge when they're looking at our at our remote versus something else, when they see this one has a scroll wheel to go up and down on the channels. I think it might be kinda neat to be able to do it like that. [speaker001:] But then that that surely d depends a little on the TV [speaker004:] W [speaker001:] because some TVs are quite slow at changing channels from like so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Sure. [speaker001:] if you've got a scroll wheel and you s you have to scroll scroll it really really slowly just so that you're actually keeping in pace with the TV's ability to to change channels. Or do you have to go through and you wait for it? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] You scroll it a bunch of times and you wait for it to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well I think wh what it would be is like like the m like this, where it's maybe you know a digital wheel, right, where it's where it's quantized into you know certain [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] Uh I see I see. That's where you [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That was that was my my intuition of what the scroll wheel would be. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Ah I see I see what you're talking about now. Okay. [speaker002:] It's just [disfmarker] it's basically [disfmarker] it it's just a f look and feel thing. It has the same exact functionality as two buttons. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I I think there's [disfmarker] you know that uh there are so many people today that are that are surfing [disfmarker] are television surfers, and I see the scroll as a as a great mechanism for surfing. Instead of going button-to-bu you just [vocalsound] j you'd j j j j j j. [speaker001:] Yeah if you're just sitting there going [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I really I really think that's a really cool thing for surfing. [speaker001:] That's kinda cool actually. I like that. [speaker002:] Now just just so you know though uh you did bring up a point which is very valid, is a lot of TVs won't re the TVs won't respond exactly the same. Some of them are gonna be kinda slow switching, so you may like queue up like fifteen channel changes, and it'll be like flip, flip, flip. [speaker004:] Well there's ano [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well not n necessarily. You could basically make it so that it'll [disfmarker] I mean it's just gonna be sending a signal to the TV yeah the TV's ge so if you send about five flip channels, if you did that it's gonna flip once. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] That's right. [speaker001:] If you do that. [speaker002:] Yeah it just might be frustrating where you can't make it go as fast as you want, [speaker001:] Other than click click click. [speaker002:] but I think once people get used to it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I I do like the idea of the scroll wheel though. [speaker001:] And if we're marketing it as a high niche product, then we're gonna be selling it to people who are buying good TVs as well, yeah, presumably. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah I think so. I I think so. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Primarily. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker004:] Now the the only thing I I [vocalsound] [disfmarker] on the interface side of it, is that [vocalsound] I I I see the dilemma. [vocalsound] But if we have the option of of scrolling [vocalsound] at any particular speed, or the option of jumping direct, okay. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So I can go uh [vocalsound] presuming I have, on my television, something that tells me what channel I'm on, I can scroll direct from channel five to channel thirty two. [vocalsound] I know what [disfmarker] because it's on the television. The television tells me what channel it's on when I change it. So [vocalsound] I don't know that really that's that's gonna be a a d problem, 'cause the television can go automatically from channel five to channel thirty two with the push of a button. Okay? [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So ca can we can we create that kind of interface within a scroll system? You understand what I'm saying? [speaker002:] I think I know what you might be getting at, or or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh I see so if [disfmarker] maybe if we had an LCD up the top that just did a number on it, right? [speaker004:] Oh no [speaker001:] And then it [disfmarker] that basically [disfmarker] [speaker004:] we could read it from the television. [speaker002:] Well, what about this [disfmarker] what about if you can programme in your favourite channels into this scroll wheel and you can just like roll through your favourite channels, [speaker001:] Mm. Well that's quite cool. [speaker002:] and it c it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You'd need a display on the th the thing. [speaker002:] Why? It'll tell you when you flip the channel on the TV. [speaker004:] Yeah the the television can tell you. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Can. [speaker001:] Oh yeah yeah no I see what you're talking about. Yeah that's kinda cool. How would you program it though? [speaker002:] Well you just [disfmarker] it's one extra button. You say programme start, and then type in [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Put [disfmarker] [speaker002:] 'cause you still have the typing you know you'll still have the keypad where you can type 'em in manually. [speaker001:] Okay okay. [speaker002:] So programme start, zero, one, enter, zero, five, enter, [vocalsound] thirty eight, enter, programme end. [speaker004:] And then. [speaker001:] Okay and yeah and that just basically flips between it and it'll go [disfmarker] it sends out zero, five, and then thirty six, and then zero, one again. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah that's kinda cool. I like that. [speaker004:] And again we have another another great marketing tool. We have about three [disfmarker] we have three or four things here. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] That's not gonna be too expensive because that's gonna be [disfmarker] you're gonna be able to nab that off of computer mouse manufacturers really. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] You could basically [vocalsound] come up with a partnership to be able to produce that quite cheaply. [speaker004:] I dunno and an maybe we maybe even have this as in-house technology. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] This may be something that's available through our own uh through our own services. [speaker001:] Might be, but tha that's not gonna be such a costly feature. The problem we're gonna have is making it robust. [speaker002:] Oh well we also have to determine in some manner how to switch between modes, between going through your favourites list and just hitting up one, up two. [speaker001:] Making it last. [speaker004:] Or we go directional up [vocalsound] we go we go this we go this we go this way for one, we go this way for the other. [speaker001:] So if there's a button [vocalsound] for each type. [speaker002:] No because you wanna be able to go up and down through the channels. [speaker001:] Yeah people are gonna have their favourite sorta, whether they do that or whether they [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Ah-ha okay. Okay, okay, well then you just have, you have a diff you have a mode switch. [speaker002:] Right. I think we'll need a [vocalsound] we'll need a mode switch, [speaker001:] Yeah yeah the mode switch. [speaker002:] but then if we have a mode switch we're gonna need some kinda indicator [speaker001:] Just the lights behind the buttons. [speaker002:] to which, an LE an LED [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You could have back-lit buttons maybe. [speaker002:] okay. [speaker003:] [gap] Yeah. [speaker001:] Would that work? Is that [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] okay we have five minutes. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So right details th [vocalsound] that we've talked about here are that we want a scroll wheel. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We want [vocalsound] a mode indicator. We want [vocalsound] back-lit buttons. And if we're making back-lit buttons period, do we want that just for the mode indicator or maybe to indicate what button you're pressing at the time, so that you know if it's actually pressed or not. I've seen some remotes do that. [speaker002:] Okay. Just so you know I think [disfmarker] I mean it was my understanding that before we were gonna stay in the mid-market range. It seems we're kind of approaching a higher-end range. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] I think we are yeah. [speaker002:] I wanna make sure everybody's okay with that. [speaker004:] Well you had acknowledged that we have more money for this. [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker004:] Didn't you say so? [speaker001:] well we don't have [vocalsound] it's not that we have more money, we can push up the the price. [speaker004:] That's what I mean. We can increase the cost. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] So I don't know I don't know whether having [disfmarker] [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker002:] I just wanna make sure everybody's on board with it. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. So we really need to be sure as to what we can push the cost up to, though we haven't got to a stage where we're ready to pin down the price of components. But I'd say what sorta price are we looking to be able to sell something like that, and what sorta price can we make it for? [speaker004:] Well I think th I think the design and technology has to come back and say, okay to create this product we see it's gonna cost us this much for this volume, because we do have a volume target of of fifty million profit. [speaker001:] Yeah no I I think that's where we really should be more flexible than anything else because as we said in the last meeting, our management is really looking for us to push our brand. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] We're entering a new market here, so I think the the profit expectation for this one product is maybe not as important as being able to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay I'm I'm okay with that. I guess what I just want [disfmarker] to me the next step is for these guys to come come in with the design proposal w with the cost estimate attached, and then we have to take this to the next level. [speaker001:] But th what's our ballpark as to what we'd be able to sell something like this for? [speaker002:] Well y yeah. Let's let's try and think now, how much would you pay for [speaker004:] We have to find cost. [speaker002:] [disfmarker] with all these features [disfmarker] how much would you pay if you went to the store, and you were in the market f to replace your TV remote, how much would you pay for that? [speaker001:] But you've gotta think who our target market is because I I'm not our target market. [speaker002:] I'm just asking you. [speaker001:] I'm a student, but on the other hand I would think, mm with my Project Manager salary, I would think [disfmarker] yeah I could probably afford this [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] If [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Then you could probably afford this [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] uh would I buy it? Maybe. If I had a cool new TV and this was r looking really slick and it had the dock and it had the scroll wheel, which I think's a really cool idea, that would sell me on it a little. Then maybe you know. I do I don't think I'd go over a hundred Euro certainly, [speaker002:] Oh no no. [speaker001:] that would be way too much, but the [disfmarker] I would be happy paying over forty for it, I guess, but not much [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I would say thirty five to forty. [speaker004:] Yeah, I was gonna say thirty five to fifty. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Thirty five to fifty Euros is our sales bracket okay. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] So the question is what we ca we make it for. [speaker004:] Because one of th one of the things we're marketing about this product is that this is the last one you will ever need to buy for your television. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] It's one of the marketing features in this. [speaker001:] That's why the scroll needs to be really robust. [speaker003:] Okay so we'll come up with something between thirty five and fifty that is rug rubber, robust, with scroll wheel, with the new facilities of the scroll wheel like favourite stuff, favourite channels, and and with a cradle, and yeah and the locator. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] With a cradle, radio transmitters, and back-lit buttons. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] And it's gonna look sexy [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Or not [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] Or not. It might look like clay [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Okay so you can market pe depending on that? [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. Bas th that's that's easy. That's that's not a, it's a [gap]. 'Cause we have about six, six, seven features in that alone. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker004:] Under the title of uniquenesses. [speaker003:] Cool. Hmm. [speaker001:] Okay. The next meeting starts in thirty [vocalsound] minutes, although does it? It starts at three twenty one, the next meeting. So we've got more than a thirty minutes. Um [vocalsound] we've got more like fifty. [speaker004:] Well I have [disfmarker] Is my [disfmarker] three twenty one is the next meeting? [speaker001:] The the ne next meeting is three twenty one yeah. [speaker004:] That's that's almost uh fifty minutes. [speaker001:] Yeah that is. Uh they've they've changed the times from the presentations. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] You guys can [disfmarker] You guys you guys can uh create a [disfmarker] All kinds of things. [speaker002:] Probably. We'll let you know when we're done, if we can go earlier. [speaker004:] [gap] Thanks, yeah. [speaker001:] Okay so you guys will be getting your modelling done now and uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay are there any other questions with regards to what this thing's gonna do, look like, how it's gonna work that need to be addressed before we really look at this in a lot of detail? [speaker002:] I don't think so. If we have any questions we'll just email you I guess. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah I think it [disfmarker] pretty much everything's covered. [speaker001:] Okay. This one was quite easy. [speaker003:] Coulda been worse. [speaker004:] Still. [speaker001:] Always the optimist. [speaker003:] Yes I am. [speaker001:] 'Kay thanks guys. [speaker004:] Thank you. I don't have any emails. This means I can go home. Oh, we all leave. [gap]

[speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] It's not saved yet. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Our beautiful drawing. [speaker001:] So just f um [disfmarker] So this is our agenda. You're [disfmarker] F You're going to show your pr prototype presentation after me. [speaker004:] Oops. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Uh I didn't [disfmarker] Oh yeah. So these are the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh, okay. Yeah. [speaker001:] So these are the um last notes we I made. If anything doesn't look right, just say it to me then. I don't have to put it in the report. [speaker002:] Are we doing the the speech recognition? Because we didn't have enough time to uh de um design the inside as well. [speaker001:] Okay, but it's still possible uh uh financially. So if you want to, it's okay. [speaker002:] Okay yeah. Well then then we're gonna put it in. [speaker001:] Okay, just [vocalsound] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, just uh we have to design the inside then, but it should be uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, and [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Or are we making a slide open, like underneath? Or fold open? I don't know. [speaker001:] Slide open is uh quite usable for remote controls. [speaker003:] It's probably better. Yeah, s Like underneath uh you can slide it open and you [gap] other functions. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] It's may maybe uh a bit stronger as well. [speaker001:] Maybe that's better. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's that's a very good point. [speaker002:] Okay, so when you have a lot of room inside. [speaker003:] Think that's better. [speaker002:] So you can make it very easy to use. 'Cause you can write a lot of comments besides it. [speaker001:] Yeah. Okay. So this is okay? [gap] [speaker002:] [gap] No. Yeah, we're gonna use the advanced chip then. [speaker001:] Okay, so that's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] The [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh I'll just have a look how much that is. But um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Advanced chip was for uh spee Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, for the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, I I think so. I don't know. [speaker001:] Okay. No, you have a different chip for speech recognition. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Ah okay. [speaker001:] So I already calculated that and it's still in the budget. So it's okay. [speaker002:] Good. [speaker001:] So you can show your prototype if you want to. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Together? [speaker003:] Yeah, it's [disfmarker] Let's do it together. [speaker002:] I'll give comments. [speaker003:] Okay. Yeah, we just made a Word file with the basic elements. Uh the look-and-feel model. Uh well the form, the case um as drawn there. Simply a square with uh round corners. So that's basically it. [vocalsound] Uh the material should be hard plastic. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Uh colour changeable, and also transparent. And colour and transparent, or just transparent, I don't know. Um then the elements. Uh we have [disfmarker] The functions are just basic. Like uh I've pointed them here. Mute function, on-off function, text functions. This uh switch channel. [speaker001:] Okay, cool. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And this is the the num-pad. And the logo is over here, and the mic. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] And the scrollwheel, no? You operate that with your pointing finger. [speaker004:] Means [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So you hold it like this in your right hand and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. So how many functions do you need for for uh the microphone? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Speech recognition. [speaker001:] Yeah, speech recognition. Just [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Um I didn't have a specification of that. But um I can imagine that you have to input your voice or something. [speaker001:] Only one button to say it's on or off. [speaker003:] Uh I dunno. [speaker002:] Um so I've [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, maybe maybe uh you have to configure it. [speaker002:] Yes, you need options to configure it, and after that you don't need 'em anymore. [speaker001:] So you can put it on the back as well if you want to. [speaker002:] Yeah, you can [gap] put 'em all on the back. That's for sure. [speaker003:] Yeah, or or on the slide function, I don't know. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] That's uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] Well we haven't had time to design that, the slide pad. [speaker002:] We also don't know how many buttons are required, or what kind of buttons. But [disfmarker] You have a lot of room if you can slide it open. [speaker001:] Yeah, you can put it separate. [speaker002:] You [disfmarker] Yeah I know. I can imagine you need at least four buttons or something. So [disfmarker] But it's enough room. [speaker003:] Yeah. Um the position? Yeah, you write uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh well [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You wrote this, so. [speaker002:] Well the main, the main zap buttons are most central. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] That was the the most important thing. So uh the best [gap] place, the best reach place [disfmarker] Um on-off buttons, text buttons, mute buttons are together and at a place they easily are, easy to find. Um the on-off button is a bit bigger, uh so it stands out. That way you don't have to make it red, 'cause it's will uh will show up. Uh scrollwheel is on the left side. It's [vocalsound] basically the be standard place for scrollwheel, as far as I know. [speaker003:] Yeah. But it's not uh impossible to use it, if you're left handed. So y Because you can use your thumb then. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Just just one thing now. Um y you need to have more uh one two th You've got one two three four five six seven eight nine. [speaker002:] Okay yeah, they [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But you missed the no uh the zero and uh the two stripes. [speaker003:] Mm yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah okay. That's that's below that then. [speaker003:] Yeah, okay. [speaker002:] It's uh twelve buttons. [speaker003:] [gap] just so you get that. [speaker004:] Okay, but [disfmarker] [vocalsound] It's rather important. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah okay, just we just missed that. But um I'll just uh [disfmarker] I'll get back to later. F the form well, we've taken that from the iPod, other popular technical device. So um should be popular. Um [disfmarker] The f uh the buttons creating? Uh if you [disfmarker] [vocalsound] That or all round shapes, not uh rounded corners. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So that, you know, you get a bit round feeling. Um we'll use hard plastic. Since that allows us to use uh two D buttons, uh non-rubber buttons. Colour changeable. Well and um the backlight thing, the thing that lights up. We have decided uh [vocalsound] in the the channel buttons, there's a little uh colour around it. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] And also in the num-pads, there's also colour [gap] light behind it. [speaker001:] And do you still can, do you still can choose what colour, kind of colour you want? [speaker002:] So when you pre Yeah. [speaker001:] How do you want to implement that? Just on the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We're going to implement. [speaker001:] Maybe on the second level as well? [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm just a little [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Ah. [speaker003:] Yeah, these are just basic functions, so [disfmarker] All the non-basic are in [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, just draw draw the second level, because we need that as well. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. Um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay, there is one uh function I use uh daily, and it's not on the basic functions. It's uh to switch to uh uh your Scart. Play Station or uh DVD player. That function must be [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, maybe we use this button for the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, maybe [disfmarker] Or you can uh i uh lay it uh beneath in the uh other uh functions. [speaker002:] Yeah, I um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, as well. Just make make a [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] To your video device. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Just just draw a second level one and say all options that are still left or something. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] A second level? [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Like a a new blank one or [disfmarker] Or just here? [speaker001:] No no, just on [disfmarker] Down there. [speaker002:] Is i Ah okay. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] So uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] And h how does the second level come out? [speaker001:] Just uh if you s [speaker004:] Uh it slides uh along? [speaker002:] Um slides I think. [speaker001:] Yeah, y Maybe, yeah. [speaker002:] It's [speaker004:] From from the uh beneath? [speaker001:] For the bottom. [speaker002:] You can do it that it claps open, but I think that's not solid enough. [speaker001:] No, you gotta slide it. [speaker002:] If that breaks then you're screwed. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's right. [speaker002:] So it do doesn't even have to slide all the way open. Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So what do we need? [speaker002:] Uh i the the speech functions buttons. [speaker003:] Yeah, just [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Menu? [speaker002:] Menu button. With uh maybe uh arrows. So you can uh [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] scroll in the, navigate the menu. Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] God damn it. [speaker004:] Scart? [speaker002:] [gap] I think we can even put a [disfmarker] [vocalsound] We have one for the zero and one for the for the more digit uh channels. [speaker004:] Uh yeah. And so y you keep you keep one, you have one left. Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So you have one left for the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So this is the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Right, the video channel, Play Station, etcetera. That's used pretty often. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] If you have a Play Station, mm you use it every day. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It's a f [vocalsound] basic uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Extern or something. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker001:] You want to save that file as well? The drawing? [speaker002:] That was it. [speaker003:] So here are multiple speech buttons, I don't know how many. [speaker002:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Doesn't really matter. [speaker003:] I don't know the functions. [speaker001:] Just just uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It doesn't really matter. That's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah well we don't have any uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] What else? [speaker002:] Hmm? [speaker003:] What else? [speaker002:] What else? Uh menu buttons with arrows. [speaker003:] Uh menu. [speaker004:] Yeah, to navigate. [speaker003:] Uh [gap] With arrows. [speaker002:] S Just uh like [disfmarker] Um I think it's best if we do. Mm where do we have [disfmarker] Or there. [speaker003:] Like a normal um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Like on the normal uh [disfmarker] Like this. [speaker003:] Yeah, with in the middle um a menu button. [speaker002:] The menu button, yes. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well we don't have any, anything on how many buttons speech requires. So you can't redesign it. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Mm okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Maybe one button to switch the colour of your uh LEDs? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker004:] Uh and and you can hold it, [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] you can hold it, and then the colours switch or mm multiple multiple buttons. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Just press it once, the colour should uh switch. Press again, the colour switch again maybe? [speaker004:] [gap] okay. [speaker001:] Or we just make it three buttons, all the colours on it. Just red, yel uh red, green and [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. Th Yeah. If we have enough place, uh then we can do that. [speaker003:] Yeah, okay. [speaker001:] That's that's very easy, yeah. [speaker003:] We can put those here. [speaker004:] Colour buttons. And then we choose green, uh blue and red or [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [disfmarker] Okay. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. That's uh [disfmarker] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So did we miss anything? [speaker002:] Yeah, maybe some uh some text next to the scroll wheel, that it is volume. [speaker004:] It [disfmarker] Some text uh buttons. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, but [speaker002:] I just uh [disfmarker] The volume logo. [speaker001:] No, ma on on o on the on the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] there's one there's one text button I [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh wh Here? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [gap] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Just make it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] There's one text button I prefer. [speaker003:] Yeah, or th or the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's the one uh that you use if you search for a page, uh like seven hundred, uh and it's counting from one hundred to two hundred, you will switch to your television and back to text. [speaker002:] Yeah, we have that on the the text button. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Do you do you [disfmarker] Did you think of that? [speaker003:] Yep. Yeah, but then you can switch back to normal telete teletext. You just switch it off and then [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh why not? [speaker001:] Yeah, just put it on those extra f extra function as well. [speaker004:] Ex Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] No [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well w we thought of a text button. [speaker002:] Whoa [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And if you press it again, you get the the the [speaker002:] I think um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The sta the state you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh just three stages, [speaker003:] through view. [speaker001:] you [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, the three stages. Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's okay. [speaker003:] Yeah, b but but if you're in the second stage, the third stage is switch teletext off. So you can switch back from second to w first. [speaker002:] No, it doesn't have to turn it off. [speaker004:] No. Just remember where it was. [speaker002:] Just don't [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It it doesn't uh uh clear the the page. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] If you if you turn teletext on, you you set the seven hundred, and you turn it off, then the next time you turn it on, it still stays on seven hundred? [speaker001:] Yes, that's to remember. [speaker003:] Okay, okay. [speaker001:] Yeah, but that's that's uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But maybe it's not the way [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I dunno if [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] That's a functionality for the television. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, I think as well, but [disfmarker] Uh yeah. [speaker004:] Mm. That's maybe one thing we can discuss about. [speaker003:] Yeah mm nee uh [disfmarker] No, if i [vocalsound] uh the remote can send like the the code for seven hundred, page seven hundred to the television. Th th th if you switch it on. [speaker002:] Yeah, in thi the the remote control in the [speaker001:] Okay. Yeah, but you have to search every time again. [speaker003:] Th i [speaker002:] the chip. [speaker001:] That's what what happening if you do it like that. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's true. [speaker001:] But it's still the television that has to do that. [speaker003:] Yeah, I dunno. Okay. [speaker002:] So yeah. Um do we need to fix that or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm [vocalsound] most new TVs do uh collect all the pages. [speaker001:] No, that's what the television does. [speaker003:] Yeah, those memory functions. [speaker004:] But uh not not every every television, so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, it's cool. [speaker003:] Was uh this logo for uh volume? [speaker001:] Yeah, that's fine. [speaker003:] Okay. So that's it? [speaker001:] Is this prich pretty much it, yeah? [speaker004:] Yeah, I I thought about one thing. Uh the buttons? Uh from which material are they now? [speaker003:] Mm. No no [speaker002:] Just like your telephone, hard plastic. [speaker003:] Yeah. Just hard plastic. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. Because um if you use it a couple of years, some uh sometimes the numbers on the on the buttons are slide away, [speaker001:] It's too expensive to make it from a different material anyway. [speaker004:] are uh [disfmarker] And maybe we can write the numbers below or above? Or shall we just turn it on on the buttons? [speaker002:] I think just on the buttons. [speaker003:] Uh I think just um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] If you do it abo above or below, it takes uh more space. [speaker004:] Well yeah. That's too much place. [speaker003:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay, just leave it. Just leave it. [speaker002:] I don't think the space is worth it. [speaker004:] Yeah, and i [speaker003:] I think uh you have that problem more often with rubber buttons. [speaker004:] The most time [disfmarker] Yeah, with rubber buttons. Yeah, okay. [gap] Okay. Fine. [speaker001:] Yeah? Okay, cool. Mm mm mm mm mm. Yeah, I don't know what this means. But I think we just evela evaluated this one. [speaker004:] Yeah, I made some criteria uh, so we can uh ev evaluate our model. [speaker001:] Oh okay, you made some criteria. Okay, cool. Okay. [speaker004:] I d d d I don't think if it's right. [vocalsound] That shall show it. [speaker001:] You have some usability criteria or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Uh no, uh all criterias we just argue about. Uh [disfmarker] Oh. [speaker003:] In the bottom. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Look-and-feel? [speaker004:] Evaluation crit [speaker003:] No, evaluation is [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, evaluation presentation. It's not in. Uh d it doesn't matter um [disfmarker] It only had two pages or something. [vocalsound] Um well I looked in the reports um from the marketing strategy, or uh of uh the the the the the the new needs and uh the market. The Italians uh, how they think about it. And [disfmarker] [vocalsound] The research uh about uh the the comp uh the the the users and that kind of stuff. I made some criteria, and we have to test the criteria from one to zero. We sh we we we can give it uh a number, and then we can give ourself an average for our [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] um [vocalsound] model. And this [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] These are all I I I found, or I wrote down. And um [vocalsound] we have to discuss about [vocalsound], if we give it a one or a seven. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh I think uh if you have a kind of iPod idea. It quite beautiful. It's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] We are actu We are the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, the the the difference be between uh beautiful and fancy uh look-and-feel is uh the the the outside uh beautiful uh like the iPod or something. And fancy's more like the mm uh f the flashing lights and the colours and [vocalsound] and that kind of stuff. [speaker001:] Flashy. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay. Well I think we do [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The LEDs. [speaker002:] If it's really uh, if you can if you can get the iPod look, then it's beautiful, I think. [speaker004:] Yes. And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours uh were you thought uh of? [speaker001:] But uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah beautiful's is also a matter of taste. [speaker002:] Hmm? [speaker004:] The basic colours are black or green or yellow? Or you haven't thought about [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Um basic colours, um yeah. Well you didn't say. [speaker004:] Ho how do we make uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Maybe um company colours? [speaker001:] It's black. [speaker004:] Black and yellow. [speaker002:] Black. [speaker001:] Yeah, yellow light. [speaker002:] A bit a bit of yellow. [speaker004:] Can [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Do we have yellow light? No, not really, but it's possible. [speaker002:] Not not not yellow [gap], but just a bit of light yellow. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Black white, maybe? [speaker002:] Like white, also ni or uh always nice. [speaker003:] And what colours should the buttons be? [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] Because um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, different colours. This is [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Just um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh, the same as th th the cover. But also th the light behind it. [speaker003:] But can you change those too, with uh the switch? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] No, no. Make them [disfmarker] No, just make them black or grey or something. [speaker002:] Yeah, grey. Just dark grey I think. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay, so what uh number do we give uh a beautiful? Beautiful is uh really subjective, uh because it has to do lots with the colours. [speaker002:] Well we have changeable fronts, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Changeable fronts, so ev for everyone for everyone it's something beautiful. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, just give it a one. It's okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's perfect. I think it's just what you want. Or not? [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It's hard to decide for us, but yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. It's ju so subjective. [speaker002:] It it's [disfmarker] At least it's a lot better than uh current remote controls. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, just give it a two. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] A two. Okay. The fancy look-and-feel. That's about our uh flashing lights and the background uh lights uh from from from the buttons. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. And we can change the colours, so that's uh really fancy I think. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] One more thing. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Are w are we changing uh [disfmarker] Or are they there uh backlights on the slide panel too? Or n no back light? [speaker004:] Slide panel? [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Mm. Not needed [gap]. [speaker001:] No. No, it's only on the number, behind the numbers [speaker002:] Yeah, not needed I think. [speaker001:] and uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And and the switch channel is uh [disfmarker] There is a back light too? [speaker004:] Oh, you mean th this here? [speaker001:] That as well, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, but that's unnecessary. [speaker002:] What do I think is necessary necessary item? [speaker004:] It's pretty cool. If you slide it open, [vocalsound] it lights up. That's that's really fancy, but [vocalsound] I don't know if it's reachable. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Of course it's reachable. [speaker001:] It doesn't make [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Then we do it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay, maybe just some light uh to to light it all up. So you can see what's really there. Not just not re on the buttons or something. [speaker001:] No. Yeah. [speaker002:] Just a green light or some blue light. To light it all up. [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] Yeah. Mayb Okay. [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, just backlight. Not not the buttons. And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons, but behind the buttons. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So the buttons are just grey. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Well yeah. Uh semi-transparent. [speaker001:] Yeah, just only [disfmarker] Yeah, that's right. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay, fine. So I I think it's very fancy. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Yeah, that's how I think. [speaker004:] So I'll give it a [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, w we've done a a lot of detail in light, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, and you can uh also choose your light, so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Ye Yeah, this [disfmarker] It is a one. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's okay. It's cool. [speaker004:] I think it's one. Okay, next. [speaker001:] This is a difficult one, because we we don't [disfmarker] Yeah, we don't know it about the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Learnable? Easy to use? Yeah, we shall test it [vocalsound] But uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh [vocalsound] it's it's very easy to use, but uh the second layer is not easy to use. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] That's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, but you don't have to use that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And you on don't have to pay attention to that second layer. That's th that's the main thing that's so good about it. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] So I think it's easy to use, but [disfmarker] And learnable is a bit [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Learnable? It's not not as fast as a usual uh uh remote control. [speaker003:] Well, I think it is. [speaker004:] Because because I think I think the scroll wheel, uh it's very handy, but the first time you get this thing in your hands, it's not to use the scroll wheel. [speaker002:] Well y just uh f [speaker004:] I think uh you must uh seek for it, and up or down or [disfmarker] Uh then the re [speaker001:] But the rest of it is very easy, because there are so so n [speaker002:] Yeah, I think it's very clear what it all does. [speaker003:] So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Yeah. Okay. [speaker002:] But the second parts, uh like speech, etcetera, that will be harder to learn. [speaker001:] So it is learnable um f i i In the first place it's very easy to use. [speaker004:] Okay. But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] It's [disfmarker] Yeah it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And I think its scrollwheel is u easy to use as well, if you have ever used uh a different kind of uh of uh device. [speaker004:] Yeah. But we we've got the two so two uh two or three uh new things, huh? [speaker002:] Device. [speaker004:] And maybe we uh maybe learnable is in uh compare of old fashion uh remote controls. So we h we have speech, uh the scroll wheel, and um the the the slide. You must slide it. And that's not normal at the uh normal remote controls. 'Cause I think learnable is a l a less than um [vocalsound] easy to use. [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker004:] Because easy to use comes after learnable. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay, just [disfmarker] Easy to use is very cool, [speaker004:] I I think it a three or something. [speaker001:] so just give it a two. [speaker002:] Maybe three then. Learnable's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, but definitely better, much better than uh than uh than avera average, yeah. [speaker003:] Mm uh. The normal. [speaker002:] Yeah okay. Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] And the one you showed is just all buttons and you don't know [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yep, true. Then a two. [speaker004:] Oh. Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] New features. Techno technological innovative? [speaker003:] The speech function and the colour. Colour. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] The speech function is new. [speaker002:] And the scrollwheel, backlights, slide. [speaker004:] The scrollwheel and the slide. Uh I think the slide is pretty new. [speaker001:] Slide is not n is is not new. No. I already have a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Uh I only saw it in a telephone, not in an remote control. [speaker001:] Uh I already have a VCR and it's about from nineteen eighty eight. And they all have a slide in it. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] So that's not new. [speaker002:] But also slide that buttons come out, as well? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay, and the the the lightning? [speaker001:] That's cool. [speaker004:] Is that new? [speaker001:] Yeah for a [disfmarker] Uh for a f [speaker004:] The lighting's new. [speaker003:] Mm it's pretty new, I think. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Scrollwheel. Speech? [speaker003:] Speech is new. [speaker002:] Different colours, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, different fronts for a remote control, I think that's new too. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So we have a pretty new uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] There are no games on it, that's that's [disfmarker] It's not a one, it's a two again. [speaker002:] That would [disfmarker] And we didn't uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It's it's it's not not LCD or something. [speaker002:] But then we also have the the home station. [speaker001:] If you have [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We are forgetting about that now, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh yeah, that's right. Rechargeable. [speaker004:] Uh-oh. Home-station. [speaker002:] We don't [speaker003:] Yeah, we didn't draw that too, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] recharge. But that's more like uh now. [speaker001:] Yeah, just draw it afterwards. [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah, that's just a normal th s simple thing. [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker001:] If you [disfmarker] Can you save it on the same, in the same map as the other ones? In the the project uh map? [speaker002:] Uh [disfmarker] Just save, save as? [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh save as? No, that's not in the project. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well it's a already in the folder. L like number seven. [speaker001:] Oh yeah, okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Smart board. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah, but this one. This one is not yet in the [disfmarker] Oh oh. [speaker003:] I think it is. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, it is. [speaker003:] No, I think it is. [speaker002:] Uh untitled? [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah, it doesn't matter. Save. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Uh all [vocalsound] the the seven, uh all the seven. [speaker001:] But you still have to draw the resi the recharger. Okay. And new features, so we give it a two or also again a one? No, I think i if you have games on it, then then you give you have a one. [speaker004:] No, we are not extraordinary new or something. [speaker001:] But not [disfmarker] No, just so it's still a two. [speaker004:] Tha tha that [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm two, I think. [speaker002:] N [speaker001:] Targeted audience. Uh we are the targeted audience? Do we like it? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] No, we we we searched for uh um [vocalsound] a young group, audience, beneath f forty. [speaker001:] Yeah, but l younger than forty. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] So we we are exactly the targeted group. [speaker004:] Yeah, but did we reach, um [vocalsound] with our uh style, the targeted audience? Th that's my question. [speaker001:] I think so, yeah. You get the fancy things for younger people. And you get the the aesthetic things for older people. [speaker003:] Yeah. We've got a one for fancy look-and-feel, and that's what attracts the young audience. So [speaker001:] So you want [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. Um the only point is that we don't uh have uh uh [disfmarker] [gap] That's [gap] that's [gap] [vocalsound] That's this question. [speaker003:] think that's a two or a one. Yeah, but s it [disfmarker] That's basically not not handy. And [vocalsound] I don't thi I don't see [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, this. So we targeted it? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] But we didn't follow the latest trends. [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] No. Yeah, you could make a a front [speaker002:] Mm. I think we followed the latest trends. [speaker003:] a front that's that's like uh like a banana, [vocalsound] or something. [speaker004:] Tha these are the only latest uh trends I uh [vocalsound] get on my computer. [speaker002:] Oh right. Well uh fruit and vegetables, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, you get different colours. [speaker002:] You can different front uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Uh yeah, th So we had we uh have uh a fruit uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Like a a f banana kind of front. [speaker004:] Oh yeah. But spongy will never be. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] No. [speaker004:] So we give ourself a three or something. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] So that's eleven. [speaker004:] That's uh [disfmarker] What's the average? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Eleven divided by six. [speaker001:] Yeah, it is one point eight three. [speaker004:] A perfect score. [vocalsound] No, I don't know. [speaker003:] We're not too hard on ourselves. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] This is a a power indicator. So you can see how far it's charged up. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] And and you need n uh a button to call it, to let it beep. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] To call. Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh yeah, that's still [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Call [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, but uh we have to make a speaker then too. If you want to make it beep. [speaker001:] Yeah, maybe we have to skip that one. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] That's [disfmarker] Yeah, but it [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] No no, I want that in. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But we can we can do it uh underneath the logo. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] No, we need that. That's usable. That's really usable. [speaker003:] If you do uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah, th the speaker is very small as well, right? [speaker003:] Yeah, okay. [speaker004:] It's [vocalsound] uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So I just got a financial um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yes uh. [speaker001:] [gap] You s [vocalsound] saved it or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. I did save it. [speaker001:] No. Okay, let's have a look at this one here, the production cost of it. If I forgot anything, just say it to me. It just is a battery. Yeah, there are some that they didn't mention, because recharge is not on the list. But okay. So I think we are pretty much in the right direction, because it's twelve point three Euros. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Mm [vocalsound] okay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] That's fine. [speaker003:] But uh is uh uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] So that's both. [speaker004:] Come on, it's perfect. Uh twelve point three point three. [speaker001:] Yeah, and single curved curved. [speaker003:] But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, that's not on the list. But that shouldn't be [gap]. [speaker003:] Can we make that for uh h twenty cents? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, we can uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Probably. I just [disfmarker] The b the button supplements, I didn't I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Um [vocalsound] different fronts, but standard front won't be, yeah. [speaker001:] I'm not sure. See it's [disfmarker] I think it's okay like this. [speaker004:] Special form, yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It's hard to say. But maybe we have to um [disfmarker] Yeah, [gap] okay. Special colour, you can skip this one, because it's all quite normal. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We get different ones, that's all. So you can put a recharger in it as well. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] But this is expensive, the sample speaker. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] This? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, it's four. [speaker004:] Four. It's four Euros. [speaker002:] Oh, them. Is that uh included? In the twelve Euro or [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] So we are [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, that's included. [speaker003:] It's kind of weird that we [vocalsound] we get this information now, afterwards. [speaker002:] Okay, then we then we need to use it. [speaker003:] Because [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, no. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay, so this is uh pretty much it this [gap]. [speaker002:] Damn, solar cells are uh expensive. [speaker001:] So [gap] I just want you [disfmarker] Yeah, we just made it. So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for uh for everything together. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. We can do some discussion about this. Was there room for creativity? [speaker003:] Sure. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Paul, was there room for crea creativity? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Beautiful. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm uh i Yeah, I think so. I think uh everyone uh [gap] already. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah m If we got a high mark for um uh innovativeness or innovativity [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Or a different style. [speaker003:] then there [vocalsound] we probably have been creative. [speaker002:] I think we uh discussed a lot of things about it. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. We could make a lot of different uh remote controls. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So it's creativity. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] Okay, so the leadership [disfmarker] Was there a leadership and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Of course there was. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. What do you have to say about that? [speaker003:] No, I think [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Who was the leader? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I dunno. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Just normal discussion, I think. Not [speaker002:] Yeah. [gap] [speaker003:] one leader or something. [speaker002:] One leader to check the time, etcetera. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. And make notes. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, I know. [speaker002:] So more like a secretary. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay, next one. Uh team work um [disfmarker] The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard. We were not all [disfmarker] We were not um agree with every not agree with [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. We were not finished. [speaker003:] Yeah, w we had so much information, that we get through email and just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We're not finished. [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker002:] Uh I think we [vocalsound] we got wrong information at the wrong time. I think that was the m biggest problem. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Like uh the prices. If we knew that before, we could have uh had discussion really uh s really quicker. [speaker003:] Yeah, th that's weird. [speaker004:] Yeah, because the prices uh could be twenty Euros or something now. [speaker002:] Yeah, and if you had uh fifteen Euros, then we would [gap] it. [speaker004:] And then [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] We had to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm hmm yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, finance. [speaker003:] So we're bacal basically just lucky to uh get the price right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But the teamwork was okay. [speaker004:] Yeah, uh everybody could speak their uh opinion. And uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I think uh everyone listen to each other. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design. [speaker001:] Yeah. 'Kay. Yeah, what I have to say about uh means. The smart board is okay. Digital pen is horrible. I dunno if you use it. But if you want to download it to your computer, it's doesn't work. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It was [disfmarker] Just doesn't work. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] Well uh smart board would be very uh nice to work with, if it worked really well. [speaker004:] Digital pen or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] Yeah. Yeah, i if if it would be faster, it would be great. [speaker002:] Just not work too slow. [speaker004:] Yeah, the drawings are are hard to make, I think. [speaker002:] Yeah, more accurate. Yeah, it's i It should be more accurate. [speaker004:] Precise. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And uh I think it would be great if you could edit it from, just with a mouse, from where you're sitting. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Not just pointing out on it. [speaker001:] It's the same for the presenta for the presentations. You can do it from here. That's much easier than standing there. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And so you've [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, and p just point with a mouse. [speaker002:] No use to draw on the board itself. It's just slows down. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] Just old fashioned kinda blackboard style. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But you might as well do it in normal computer style. [speaker001:] Yeah, like [gap]. [speaker002:] Yeah, even harder to draw like this than black board style. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. And it's far too slow this way. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] You cou You could draw on it, but not as main function. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] [gap] I think [disfmarker] Yeah, okay. [speaker004:] Digital pen. [speaker001:] So we made it in time. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] And we made a remote control. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] We did it. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] In the budget, yeah. [speaker002:] New ideas found. [speaker004:] New ideas. [speaker003:] What's that? [speaker002:] Oh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] For for for [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I don't know what it mean. Just [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I just think if we uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] To gather, or to uh work together, uh or new ideas for [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I dunno. [speaker001:] For remote control probably. No, for the project. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] For remote control, a favourite for your text. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] No, for the prototype. New ideas. [speaker003:] Yeah, but still, you couldn't make a fancy a f you couldn't make a a prototype out of this. Because we don't have any sizes and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. But it's for the next team. [speaker003:] Yeah, but it [disfmarker] You can't possibly do that in such a short time, I think. [speaker001:] We don't have to do that. [speaker002:] That's for [gap]. Yeah, this this is just the idea phase, the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, just brainstorming basically. [speaker002:] Yeah. Details uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So are we finished? [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Yes, I think just [disfmarker] I just write a final report. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Quite early. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No, we have only four minutes left. Uh it's okay. [speaker003:] Oh okay. [speaker002:] Oh, what do we have to do now. Do we uh [disfmarker] I thought we were done at four o'clock? [speaker003:] It's now quarter past three. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker004:] [gap] I should take some pictures uh. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Mm we can do it afterwards, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Let's play minesweeper. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I found it as well. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Ti-din ti-din. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] One two three four five six seven cameras. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm not bad. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So that was it. [speaker003:] Yeah. Now we can look at this. [speaker002:] This is [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We're probably not supposed to look at this, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] The old versions. [speaker003:] Yeah, from the previous group. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] They went for uh for a universal device. [speaker003:] The touchscreen, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, but also a different device [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Then an LCD uh would be handy. [speaker003:] Hmm. Here are the basic functions in here, the selecting dev devices. [speaker002:] Yeah, and touch screens for all our stuff, yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] I do agree with that. Yeah, tu-dum. English is not so hard by the way. [speaker003:] No. [speaker004:] I'm breaking a world record here. [speaker002:] Well, leader? [speaker004:] Oh shit. [speaker002:] Project Manager? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] We've got a problem, Paul. [speaker002:] You do? Yeah, you have to make a choice. [speaker004:] Yes. No it's your choice. [speaker002:] Wow, that's pretty quick. [speaker004:] Tu-dum. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh uh um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Just pick one. [speaker002:] You have to decide. It's the lower one. [speaker004:] What's this? A bomb or not a bo [speaker002:] No no, the upper one is the bomb. [speaker004:] This the bomb? [speaker002:] Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Wrong. Shit. [speaker002:] I knew it. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I knew it. [vocalsound] Four in a row. [speaker002:] No. [vocalsound] That's too much work. [speaker004:] Uh. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Come on. [speaker004:] Is that previous work? [speaker003:] Yeah, this one. [speaker002:] I challenge you. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh, that's so stupid. No, that doesn't work. [speaker002:] No, you gotta use the magic pen. Hmm. What if I put one there? [speaker004:] That's stupid. [speaker002:] We'll see. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] I don't agree. [speaker004:] Mm. [vocalsound] Sorry. [speaker002:] Yeah, you had two choices. That's gonna be draw. Or not. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Too bad. [speaker002:] I'll put it here. [speaker004:] Yeah, then I put it there. [speaker002:] You are going to put it there. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] No one wins. [speaker002:] It's a difficult choice, either here or there. [speaker003:] This is a very interesting design. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Ugly. [speaker004:] It's just the same as normal. [speaker002:] Oh [gap] a pen. [speaker003:] Well it has a LCD, I think. [speaker002:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Then do it correctly. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Stupid design. Stupid. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap] And what else do we have? [speaker002:] Stupid, the LCD screen. [speaker004:] 'Kay wait, I'm going to draw something and you must y [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] What? Okay, I'm going to guess what you're drawing. [speaker004:] Okay, blank. [speaker002:] No no, the new one. [speaker004:] Oh. [gap] [speaker002:] Uh they just don't save it. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] I know uh. [speaker002:] A house? Yeah, you have to use the pen s stupid. [speaker001:] You have to save everything, you know that, huh? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] No, not everything. [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker003:] Yeah, everything. [speaker002:] Pen, select select pen. [speaker004:] Pen. [speaker003:] It wants to know what we do in our spare time. [speaker002:] Okay. It's a house. A plant? [speaker004:] No, it's [vocalsound] Only you can know it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah, I can know it. It's a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It's uh very hard to draw. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay, that makes it easier. I think I know. No, wrong. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] I think I know what you're trying to draw, but it's wrong already. [speaker004:] It's [vocalsound] very [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, you missed the right side. [speaker004:] Fuck. F [speaker002:] [vocalsound] No, you're wrong, you're wrong [speaker004:] [vocalsound] A little bit maybe, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] See where you're wrong now? The entrance. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Warning. Finish meeting now. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker004:] Okay, the entrance is uh more to the left. [speaker003:] Warning. Warning. [speaker002:] You're correct. [speaker004:] Okay. But but but I think this part [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah, but [disfmarker] [vocalsound] I think [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh no you [vocalsound] made another mistake. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh. Yeah, there are a lot of mistakes, because the walls are thick like this. [speaker002:] No I w Okay, I'm not that whiny. But uh there was a big hole here as well, and there as well. [speaker004:] Oh, that's true. Uh here. Yeah, they're walking behind the walls. [speaker002:] That's a kinda big mistake. [vocalsound] Warning, finish meeting now. Guys, I think we have to finish the meeting. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] 'Kay this is a hard one. [speaker002:] Uh? [speaker003:] Boom-boa-ring-bing. [speaker002:] What does it say? [speaker003:] Fill in the questionnaire. What now? [speaker002:] Come on. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] No more chit-chat. [speaker002:] Oh you gotta finish [speaker004:] Che-che-che-che. [speaker002:] over there? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] In your own room? [speaker004:] Tu-dumm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I'm gonna be so lonely. [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker002:] Mm I'll clean that up later. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] This is [disfmarker] That's my new interface. [speaker002:] What's that? [speaker004:] That's a uh edited smiley. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Tom-ti-dom. Uh. [speaker003:] Okay.

[speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. Good afternoon again. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of [disfmarker] detail design of the product of the remote control. Um [vocalsound] So here is the agenda for today. Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a p presentation of prototype of you two, sounds interesting. And we'll have um [vocalsound] presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts. Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the of the cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro. [vocalsound] Okay. So let's go. Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting. [vocalsound] So we went through th uh w we took this following decisions. No LCD, no speech recognition technology, okay, we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control. We went through the use of wheels and but buttons. [vocalsound] And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost. Okay. Um. Good. So guys let [gap] this uh wonderful thing. [speaker003:] Okay so we can go to the slides. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah. Sorry. Um. [speaker003:] Yeah. Number three. Oh number two sorry. [speaker001:] Which is [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So final design. Final design. Okay so Michael you can go ahead. [speaker002:] Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow [disfmarker] well to make a banana [speaker001:] Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe. [speaker002:] remote [disfmarker] okay so we actually have a [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You can pull it out first, maybe. [speaker002:] We've [disfmarker] well first first of all we made a an attractive [vocalsound] base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uh [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] bana sit [disfmarker] the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself, it's kind of it's it's ergonomic, it fits in the hand uh rather well. We've got the two uh [vocalsound] uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath [vocalsound] we have the uh the turbo button which is in like a nice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally. [speaker001:] What's the use uh of the t turbo button already? [speaker002:] This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh [disfmarker] through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you [disfmarker] quickly rather th [speaker001:] Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops. [speaker002:] Yeah. Well when you stop scrolling the wheel it stops. But normally with uh [disfmarker] it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture. [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker003:] And we we do have one more functionality. If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button, so it switch ons the switch ons the TV. [speaker002:] The TV yeah. [speaker001:] Which one? [speaker002:] The s the turbo button. [speaker003:] The turbo button. [speaker002:] So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use the turbo button. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Additional button. [speaker004:] What this button for? [speaker002:] This is a teletext button. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So once you press that then you get teletext and you can use the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] To navigate it through th through teletext. [speaker004:] But if you want to go to page seven hundred? [speaker002:] To navigate yeah. [speaker003:] That's right, that's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] with the wheel it's easy. [speaker004:] How man [speaker002:] Well then you can you you have like a little uh number selection thing, you press the [gap] the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go [disfmarker] you scroll to seven and then zero zero and then you can uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I don't understand it. Can you repeat it? [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Well you can you can press press the teletext button [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and then you then you can you can f [speaker003:] So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing. And you can tele [speaker004:] Ah okay okay. Okay. Okay okay. [speaker003:] yeah, once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext, they are no more for channel or vol volume. [speaker002:] Mm uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. I see. I see. Okay. Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] And this is the uh the infrared uh port. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] Also the top of the banana. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Excellent. [speaker002:] So. And then we have in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the front for uh for calling the uh the banana. [speaker001:] Calling. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Excellent. And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas? [speaker002:] Actually they do. That's that's [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker002:] yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object. [speaker003:] Yeah. So it always means, whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected and then you are having a better coverage. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It's like antennas. [speaker002:] Yeah. So. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] But yeah that's um that's just like [disfmarker] that's an attractive um base station. [speaker001:] Great. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So. Okay. [speaker001:] So, what else? [speaker003:] And for the power source we are having solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Is it really weight? Is it light or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It is very light. [speaker001:] Yeah, they're light. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] You know, to give you the correct look and feel. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Ok [speaker003:] And we have put these different colours so that people don't mistake them mistake it as a banana. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah, I see. I under I understand. [speaker002:] I think a child would try to eat it anyway, so maybe we should [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] consider that. [gap] maybe health and safety aspects. [speaker001:] Ah yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker003:] Oh we didn't think of that yet. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So for the power source, apparently you still [disfmarker] you you want to use both solar cells and batteries. [speaker003:] Oh yeah that's right. [speaker001:] Uh you mean [disfmarker] okay. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessary any more if you have a recharging base station. [speaker001:] Yeah, where are going to [disfmarker] where are you are you going to place them? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm mm-hmm. It'll It'll be always at top somewhere at there. [speaker002:] If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bit [speaker001:] You have enough surface? You [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore. [speaker003:] Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteries [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] so that that is [gap]. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] What will be the autonomy? Roughly? [speaker002:] The what sorry? [speaker001:] The autonomy. Autonomy. [speaker002:] What do you mean? [speaker001:] Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station? [speaker004:] How long the [disfmarker] how long the bit the batteries long. [speaker002:] Ah. Ah. A long time. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] No no no, [speaker003:] Eight to ten eight to ten hours. [speaker001:] A long [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] it can [disfmarker] it should be weeks. [speaker003:] N most [disfmarker] no most of the time it's not being used. [speaker001:] Yeah, so it's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the time people leave wanna leave it on the couch so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So when when you are making it on [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's used only when you [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. Mm-hmm. No eight or eight or ten hours of working. If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer. [speaker002:] Ah, okay. Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. F weeks. [speaker003:] Yeah. That's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Next slide? [speaker003:] Yeah. And we are having the speakers regular chip for control. Pricing is [disfmarker] was a factor so that's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip. And uh that's it. [speaker001:] Okay. [gap] Okay. Those really sounds very good. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Nothing else to add? [speaker002:] It seems to be falling over. [speaker004:] I l yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I like I like it. Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the [vocalsound] the multifunctional buttons. Looks a bit [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You want to have more functional buttons? [speaker004:] Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say [vocalsound] that. You [disfmarker] the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You are not convinced. Not not many, we we want to keep it simple. So that this button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case, that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that, the channel buttons, they baco become the scrolling buttons. [speaker004:] And the volume button will will become [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's up to you, means. Now that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well in fact b both will be [disfmarker] could be useful, navigating through teletext. [speaker003:] Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits. [speaker002:] Or can move between positions in the in the number. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker004:] And what about people who want to use digits? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Butto real buttons? [speaker001:] Wow. [speaker003:] Yeah. So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which we have on this banana on one side because of the shape. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing, they they don't care about the buttons any more. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] And anyway [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff? [speaker002:] It's all automatic. [speaker004:] It's all automatic. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] Okay yeah it's fine. [speaker001:] Very good uh yeah [disfmarker] [speaker004:] W we are living in a wonderful world. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] you th yeah. [speaker002:] Uh. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Bananas everywhere. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay, so [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Automatically configure [gap]. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So we have to go through now evaluations. [speaker003:] Evalua yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So your slides are ready? [speaker004:] S [speaker001:] Uh you're four I think. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So this is one, which one is this one? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay. I [vocalsound] I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements. And each criteria is [vocalsound] will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is [disfmarker] or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven. [speaker003:] Why this strange factor of seven? [speaker004:] Because i I'm sorry. Sorry. [speaker003:] Usually I have seen that scales are from one to ten. [speaker004:] Ah yeah. It's from [disfmarker] sorry, it's from one to seven. It's from from one to seven sorry. Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale, [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Num number [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and five is too short and nine is too long. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I'm a I I'm [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay fine, got the idea. [speaker001:] So to have [disfmarker] in order to have enough granularity [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Sorry? [speaker001:] it's in order to have enough granularity in the evaluation. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] The variance is mi it's is minimal. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Okay, okay, great. [speaker004:] I'm um answering your question. [speaker003:] Okay. Yeah yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] Go ahead. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] And that's the criteria I I found more useful. I think I sh I [vocalsound] I could write the criteria in the on the whiteboard? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Sure. [speaker004:] And we all four could range [speaker003:] Okay. Yeah yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] could evaluate the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] So you can say fancy, handy. Handy. [speaker004:] Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, it's fancy, according to me. [speaker004:] Seven but [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, six. [speaker003:] Seven. Seven by me. [speaker001:] S seven. Six. [speaker004:] I would say seven. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] It's quite fancy. [speaker003:] So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No, wait. [speaker002:] Yeah uh five. [speaker001:] What do you say seven? [speaker003:] Five. [speaker001:] Five? [speaker002:] Five, maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, six point five. [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker001:] Handy? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Again I'll give seven. [speaker001:] Seven. [speaker002:] I'd give it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote, 'cause of the scroll wheels [speaker004:] Six. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] but maybe loses the point for not having you know the extra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote. [speaker001:] So seven, seven, [speaker003:] Seven for me. [speaker001:] six, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Six. [speaker001:] six point five. Functional. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'll give five. [speaker001:] Four. [speaker004:] I would say [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well it depends when you say functional, do you mean it does what we want it to do, or d does what it does, you know, can it make you coffee? [speaker004:] Everything ar [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Uh for a remote control, does he have all the [gap] [speaker002:] You know. [speaker004:] Mm everything [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Yeah. [gap] [speaker001:] you could expect. [speaker004:] It's compared to the all [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker004:] remote controls. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] That's before [disfmarker] [speaker003:] The standards. What is available in the market off the shelf. [speaker002:] Yeah. I have to say four. [speaker004:] Actually I don't know what are the r the real specification of a of a universal remote contro [speaker002:] Well it's not a universal remote. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on TVs. [speaker004:] Ah it's not an univer but it's for all kind of TVs? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well all TVs but only T [disfmarker] only TVs I guess. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So it's universal but for TVs. [vocalsound] So s uh four? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Five. [speaker001:] Five? [speaker002:] Four. [speaker001:] Four. [speaker004:] Four. Four. [speaker003:] So four point two? [speaker002:] Just four. [speaker001:] Four. [speaker003:] [gap] four. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So four? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Obviously there are some outliers so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Okay cool? Cool device. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] There I'll give it seven. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] It means cool features, like new features actually. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Which [disfmarker] [speaker003:] For a TV the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature. And then the scroll buttons are again cool features. We don't have LCD for it but that we decided we don't want to have. [speaker001:] Yeah. Seven. [speaker004:] I would say five. [speaker002:] I'll say five. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Six. [speaker003:] Seven. [speaker001:] Plus six, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I say [disfmarker] I said seven. So it's six. [speaker002:] S yeah. [speaker004:] You said seven? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] 'Cause it's five five seven seven so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Uh, okay, definitely easy to use. [speaker003:] Definitely seven. [speaker002:] Seven. [speaker001:] Seven. Seven. And you? [speaker004:] Five. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Outl you are not lik outlier. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Seven [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Okay okay okay okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] Sorry, I have them [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Alright, now here's the sixty million Dollar question, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] well, twenty five twenty five Euro question. [speaker001:] Of course I'll buy the [gap] banana. [gap] [speaker002:] What do you what do you guys reckon? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'll say five. [speaker001:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I'll say five. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Twenty five Euros. [vocalsound] Cheap. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I find it quite cheap [vocalsound] actually. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I dunno. If i i it depends, if you live in in Switzerland or you live in [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, so the target price is for all Europe, or only for rich countries? [vocalsound] It's more targeting UK or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I don't know. Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So this is selling costs, not production costs. [speaker004:] Yeah this is the the initial specifications. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah sure. Um [disfmarker] Five. [speaker004:] I would say six. It's quite cheap actually. [speaker002:] I'd say two. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Aw, should be nice in your [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Why? [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I don't want a banana on my [vocalsound] living room table, a banana remote. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No but it's really handy actually if you see. [speaker002:] It is handy, it's handy, but it it's terrible. [speaker003:] It's it's so handy. And then [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It's kitsch. [speaker003:] Anyb anybody who comes here [vocalsound] [disfmarker] anybody who comes to your home he'll at least ask once what is this. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Yeah, but it's not a positive thing. [speaker003:] It's a very positive thing if you see like that [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] Well, you know, it's it's handy, it's ergonomic, but it's a banana. [speaker001:] Well, don't forget well, don't for don't forget who we're targeting also who are f f who are wh [speaker003:] Youngsters. [speaker004:] Actually maybe [disfmarker] [speaker001:] yeah, youngst youngst [speaker002:] Yeah but it says I, I would buy this, so. [speaker001:] No [disfmarker] well [disfmarker] yeah [disfmarker] I [disfmarker] if you would be young. [speaker004:] Yeah [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Not telling that you are young. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] No, it's I. I would buy [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Li li like a teenager for instance. Okay you're you're crazy teenager and you like fun things. [speaker003:] You want to flaunt. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You [disfmarker] with your girlfriend or something. [speaker001:] Yeah, you want to show the beautiful banana you have. [gap] [speaker002:] S s [speaker003:] Or might be it does some other kind of thing but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Still I I'd say two. I don't think I [disfmarker] at any stage in my life I would want a banana remote control, really. [speaker003:] Uh yeah, crazy. [speaker001:] Okay so you s you give [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I can say, maybe there is a market for it, I dunno. [speaker001:] oh yeah yeah I know I know. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So you say two. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] I say five. [speaker001:] F I d I say five. You say? [speaker004:] I change the question. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So what's the new question? [speaker003:] And you have saved it? [speaker004:] So yeah upload the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You'll have to reload. [speaker001:] Uh yeah, I think so. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Okay, so, it depends if uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah it's two different situations If you really need an universal remote control or if you would change your remote control for a n for a new one. [speaker001:] Yeah that's two different question. [speaker002:] If I had t if I had to spend twenty five Euro, if that was like my limit, maybe I would buy it. Because the other twenty five Euro remote controls are probably gonna look [speaker003:] They're not going to be as [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Ugly. [speaker002:] worse than a banana. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And they they might not be a as easy as this [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And it [disfmarker] yeah this is gonna f you know handy to use. [speaker003:] yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] So? What now? What range? [speaker003:] S [speaker001:] I stick to five. [speaker003:] I go slightly up. [speaker002:] Although it still has it still has the word of course at the beginning [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Six. [speaker004:] Six. [speaker002:] so I dunno. Um. [speaker001:] W we have six, five [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I'd give it I'd give it a [speaker001:] Three [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I give it a four now. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Six? Six? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So we are [speaker003:] Six, five, four. [speaker001:] six, five, four [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Six, so it's uh five point five, or less. [speaker001:] Yeah. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] So and last question, will I change my rem change my remote control from Mando banana. Um, zero. No uh we can't. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So one. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Actually yeah, I [disfmarker] we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well if [gap]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] No uh let's say I'll put two. [speaker002:] I'd say three, I mean my remote control is kinda [disfmarker] at home is pretty terrible. If it was [disfmarker] change my remote control of my DVD player for a Mando banana then I would be more inclined to [speaker001:] It's for the TV. [speaker002:] but uh [disfmarker] 'cause it's really bad but uh [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I'd say a three. [gap] [speaker003:] I'll still give it five. [speaker004:] Five? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap] You are romantic, really. [speaker001:] Two three five two three fi and two. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So it's somewhere three point five I think. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I would say two. [speaker001:] So it's r Yeah, three point five. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Who is the outlier? Wh wh [vocalsound] you said five? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] No no you say five, he is the outlier. [speaker003:] No I said five. [speaker001:] Okay just just do a sum. [speaker004:] I don't know if [vocalsound] it's a [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's not very promising but you know we're not young trendsetters. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No because there are more [disfmarker] yeah, we shouldn't sum like that. [speaker001:] Well maybe we should we should uh have a look globally glob [speaker004:] Because the the last two questions is much more important than the rest actually. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Otherwise we wouldn't [disfmarker] we will not sell. [speaker002:] Is there some some formula you're using that says you have to sum them up? [speaker004:] Uh no I didn't [gap] anything. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well just leave it at that then. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oops. [speaker004:] Yeah, the uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So maybe maybe w we can we should stick to general feeling. We can had uh have a [disfmarker] out of these numbers, which which is that well we should go for it. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Problem with connectors? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Do you want me to sum o I think it's not [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah it's it's funny. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] No. I think it it kind of you just lose information if you sum it, so. [speaker001:] Okay So let's move uh let's move on. [speaker003:] Yeah, sure. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay, [gap] now now we have to mm to estimate [vocalsound] uh the cost okay So I prepare an Excel sh uh an Excel sheet. Um well we are going to calculate the production costs. We should we should be below twelve point five. So I already uh put some pu some numbers here, okay. We are going to go through [vocalsound] [disfmarker] so this is the number the mm number of components we need for this thing. So it appears that there were things that we didn't thought about. Uh and also things that I uh I d I forget to uh to put like solar cells. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Well we decided against the solar cells so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh yeah finally we say no. [speaker003:] Solar cells, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, we said no to that. [speaker001:] Okay so let's let's go let's go let go through all the lines. So hand dynamo. This something we didn't thought about. But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] You mean, charging it by shaking the banana. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I think rechargeable batteries will take care of the power thing. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. To bring the cost [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay so we we stick to battery, one. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] No kinetic also. I don't I don't see the difference between kinetic and dynamo. [speaker002:] Well maybe dynamo is like you have to actually [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Ah you have to [disfmarker] ah okay I see so kinetic is really uh shaking the banana. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] S [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Crazy. Okay. So those banana is falling. Let's go ahead. So we we st only have one for battery. Uh then for electronics um so I didn't put anything for the [gap]. [speaker003:] So we have the regular chip on the print, which is one. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] And that's it. [speaker001:] Okay. No [disfmarker] so we hin [speaker003:] And we have sample speaker. [speaker001:] Yeah so one. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [gap] the cost of that is very high. [speaker001:] Ooh ye ye ye the cost is increasing. [speaker002:] Well actually that that [disfmarker] no that sample speaker is not [disfmarker] we we're not using that, [speaker001:] So we are [disfmarker] [speaker002:] we're just using the the very beep [disfmarker] simple beep, [speaker001:] The beep. [speaker002:] that s that sample thing is like the voice recording and everything. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. [speaker001:] That's what [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Okay so I'll remove it. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] Yeah. I say that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] S [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And we have sev [speaker001:] So don't we need a [disfmarker] Oh there is no listing for r radio frequency thing. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So we we'll put some extras, if there is something. [speaker001:] Yeah maybe. We'll see later. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay so in [disfmarker] for the case um [vocalsound] I put single curved. [speaker003:] Okay. To reduce the cost, it's okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Well, wait a second, [speaker001:] Because we have two things. [speaker002:] no, it's it's double curved, it's got a c, it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh it's got all the directions [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] so don't worry. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well d yeah it's monotonic [vocalsound] but [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It's got a [gap] direction. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] it's got [disfmarker] but if you hold it if you hold it that way that's two curved, one on this side, one on that side, but they're opposite sides. [speaker001:] Well. [speaker004:] Actually what's the differen [speaker001:] What a [disfmarker] what i if I put one here. [speaker002:] This is actually [disfmarker] I mean this probably this probably actually costs more than three [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] if you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] so let's put one here in the [gap] then instead of single [speaker003:] Okay. Okay. [speaker001:] oka all right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So we stick to plastic, it cost nothing. [speaker003:] Yeah. That's right. [speaker002:] Well [gap] [disfmarker] no didn't we say we wanted to do a rubber [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, it's too [disfmarker] no. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Too expensive. [speaker002:] [gap] if you drop it? [speaker001:] It's too expensive. [speaker002:] Well when [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We're already at eleven. [speaker002:] okay. Well we we'll come back we'll come back and see if we can fit it in. [speaker001:] Okay so I put rubber one. Okay so special colour, yellow. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Uh for the interface we have [disfmarker] [speaker003:] We don't have any push buttons. [speaker002:] No, we have two push buttons. [speaker001:] We have three. [speaker003:] No that is a scroll wheel itself, it'll be put in that. [speaker002:] Huh. [speaker001:] No no. We have two scroll, and we have three push buttons. [speaker003:] Ah okay, okay. [speaker002:] Uh. [speaker003:] Okay, okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Actually whe whe when you wrote regular chip you should put two, because there is another chip here. [speaker002:] Okay it's gonna have to be plastic. [speaker001:] And [disfmarker] No it's [gap] no chip. This is just radio frequency [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Th This is no chip. [speaker004:] Yeah but [speaker003:] No. There's no chip there. [speaker004:] you need [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It just emits the signal. [speaker001:] It's just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And the receiver accepts it and that's it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Fo i it does nothing actually? [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] Just se sends the signal, that's it. [speaker001:] Just [disfmarker] only [gap]. [speaker002:] It's a recharger thing and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay w we didn't think a thought about uh integrated scroll wheel push buttons. [speaker002:] Well I actually did um think about it myself [vocalsound] but I thought you know [disfmarker] because you could potentially you know you could be pushing it down as you scroll it for a [disfmarker] instead of a turbo button [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] but you know the turbo button does add that extra class. [speaker001:] so [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know. So I mean if we're if we're over budget then maybe we could we could rethink that. [speaker001:] Okay. So no LCD, so for [disfmarker] we have no button supplements, [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] right? [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] Uh [vocalsound] well in fact could we could not we consider this button as a button supplement because [disfmarker] oh no, these are these are for colours, co and special forms, special colours and special materials. [speaker002:] Yeah. No we're not [disfmarker] we don't need anything special for the buttons. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Okay so we are over budget. [speaker003:] Yeah. So first thing which we should take care of is, [speaker002:] Make it plastic instead of rubber. [speaker003:] instead of rubber, let it be plastic. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then we're basically o on budget except for you know ten cents. [speaker003:] And uh that much money will be required for the base station, which is not there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] So mayb in fact n we have to put two here because it cost nothing. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah well pl the base station is made out of m many units of [vocalsound] plastic. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. That's right. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So might be ninety centimes for the the remaining things which [disfmarker] the cord and everything which'll go [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Exactly exactly so we have margin for that stuff. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker002:] Does that include charging circuitry and everything? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah maybe. Okay good. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Wha Excellent. [speaker002:] So what do we do with the extra profits? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um we'll invest in R and D. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] The next fruit. [speaker001:] Yeah. So well we're under the the the cost. So we can go to [disfmarker] through to project evaluation. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay so now we have a product which nobody would would buy. Would [disfmarker] yeah, would buy. [speaker001:] Sorry? [speaker002:] No we have a product which none of us would buy. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah because th th the evaluation project [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Which is different. Which is different. None of us will buy it. [speaker002:] No it's people in in in Milan and uh in Paris that are gonna buy it. [speaker004:] Ah would buy, yeah. Massively, yeah. [speaker002:] We're n yeah. We're not in Milan or Paris. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. Okay. Uh you have been in Milan a couple of times, so. [speaker002:] Actually there were a lot of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] This is a battery. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] And you said the lowest [gap]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] This is what we [disfmarker] which you can mm [disfmarker] [speaker003:] S Detachable battery. [speaker002:] That's 'cause I'm sick of Milan. [speaker001:] It did [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, for the batteries [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Extra battery, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay so um [vocalsound] project process. [speaker001:] Exac [vocalsound] Well in fact I I did not know [vocalsound] I didn't know really what to say here. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] If uh if you have any ideas of what we can we can say. So I don't I don't I don't understand what what they mean by satisfaction um and for and for example. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker001:] Should it be more like um like a status of of the [disfmarker] these meetings in fact. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah well in fact uh we we use a little bit the white board and the digital pen, not that much. [speaker002:] I dunno I think we had a fair bit of creativity. [speaker001:] Oh yeah it's really creative. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] And uh but I think one thing we m missed out of this whole process was a um [vocalsound] like a focus group with the actual people we're targeting. We needed some of these kind of young trendsetters to come in and play with the banana and you know see if they [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] They like that. [speaker002:] see if they like it. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah maybe we should go through, yeah an uh evaluation. [speaker002:] Because yeah the evaluation for us is is kind of [speaker003:] Biased. [speaker002:] pointless. [speaker001:] So maybe you should we should do a kinda evaluation [vocalsound] in the streets like asking to young peoples well, do you like to have a banana as a remote control. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Because it it would also be interesting to uh you to know find out if we have a market in really young children as well, to see you know how to how to market this thing. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] 'Cause you know if [disfmarker] well I mean maybe you don't wanna give all your kids their own remote because they'll be changing the channel all the time but you know maybe in some households where there is you know a TV for each kid, then you know, banana remote control could be fun for them as well. Might have to draw a face on it. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So but I think that's something we need to to work on next time is really finding out more about the target market. [speaker001:] Yep. Any any new ideas we could uh we could investigate next time? Dunno, oranges? [speaker003:] Yeah. The cost of the thing can be made more than might be. Because I think it's just the optimal, what we have done for the cost which we are looking forward to. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. I think there are ways we could maybe simplify the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Interface. [speaker002:] Well just the the the circuit board that we're using inside, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] I'm not sure really how complicated our um [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] our needs are. I mean all we have is two push buttons and two scrollers, do we really need an integrated circuit to [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] you know to process that. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So more general remote control instead of just focusing on uh on TV. [speaker003:] That's right. [speaker004:] The complexity shouldn't be much higher. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] For [disfmarker] you said if it good for DVD then I would [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And also fo you know for mood lighting and and stuff, that would be rather cool. I think that's actually something that should be in version two, is the ability to you know to control things other than the TV [speaker003:] Integrate. [speaker002:] and not just electronic equipment but you know the whole environment of the room. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] Very good. [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] What else? [speaker001:] Well done. I think we we can go [speaker003:] Okay. Home? [speaker001:] home. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Happily satisfied. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Maybe maybe we can hassle the the production department to to make a a real prototype that we can use at home to to evaluate. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [gap] Okay so thanks very much. [speaker002:] Yep. [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] Thank you. [speaker001:] Bye. [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker004:] Bye.

[speaker001:] Wait for the marketing director actually, so. Anyways. Uh. See, shall we wait? I'm not sure if he's late or delayed or whatever, so I'm gonna start soon, we have now [disfmarker] don't have much time anyway. [speaker002:] Oh, there he is. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] Okay, [speaker001:] There you are, [speaker003:] we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Sorry, [speaker001:] okay. [speaker004:] a little bit of pl little problem with computer. [speaker001:] Uh no problem. We're about to start, so have a seat. Okay, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker001:] welcome again. Today, functional design phase. I'll take you over the minutes of last last meeting. Okay, that was just to get to know each other, [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker001:] have a little thoughts on what your vision is and [disfmarker] on this project, so [disfmarker] I put the minutes on the [disfmarker] I made on the on the p the the project share, so if you wanna review them, they're there. I will do so after every meeting, so if you have some information you wanna take back you can find it there. Anyways, um today three presentations, from every one of you. Um after that I got some new project requirements from project board, so we're gonna go af go after [disfmarker] over this later. But I wanna start with uh stuff you did first, so we can see what everybody came up with. And after that we can have the new requirements and share some thoughts, so. Who would like [disfmarker] wanna go first? [speaker004:] Yeah, sure, no problem. [speaker002:] Go ahead. [speaker001:] Take it. [speaker004:] Um there was a little problem with my computer so not uh the whole uh presentation uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Anyway, let's see what you have. [speaker004:] Yeah. Um [disfmarker] Okay, [speaker001:] Uh it's still a bit open. [speaker004:] I want to open the my s oh no. [speaker001:] You should close it on your own notebook, I guess. Yeah. So there? [speaker004:] Oh no, that's okay. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Uh slide show. Yes. The functional requirements, it's uh [vocalsound] uh very important for uh the user, he he wants to [disfmarker] yeah. The the method we used uh it it's not m not a slide, because it went wrong, but the method we use uh, um [vocalsound] we tested it w uh with uh a hundred uh men, and we asked them to w uh what the remote uh f feel uh like and uh what what's uh important. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If I can cut in, is it people or men? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] People, sorry. [speaker001:] Is it people, okay. [speaker004:] Both women and men, [speaker001:] 'Cause I thought it was only men, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] yeah. Okay. Uh [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker004:] the findings um uh [vocalsound] seventy five percent of the users find most remote controls ugly. Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] That's pretty shocking uh. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So we have to s we have to do something about that. [speaker004:] Yeah, and [disfmarker] yeah, most th th they want to spend money for a better system, for better remote control, so we can do uh a l a little uh nice things with it, and um they use [disfmarker] yeah, they use zap a lot, um uh fifty percent say they only [disfmarker] So that's the most important things. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] oh yeah, not all of it is it on mine on my PowerPoint presentation, [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker004:] but um uh the relevant buttons are the power, the channel selection and the volume selection. [speaker001:] just talk ahead. [speaker004:] It's uh the most basic buttons that a user wants uh [vocalsound] to use. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Uh less important is tel teletext, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] uh um they use it, but it's not uh very uh important uh on the scale of zero to ten they six and a half uh [speaker001:] Okay, that's okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and [disfmarker] but not important is the channel selection, the the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] hmm? [speaker001:] That's a little weird. [speaker004:] Oh, [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Which channel selection? [speaker004:] the the [disfmarker] no no no no no, that's very important, but uh w and not important in the audio settings, display settings and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, we can we can hide those under a menu or something, [speaker002:] Oh, okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] okay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Um new preferences preferences. Uh um um beep to find your control, was [disfmarker] that was [gap] in the test, the the most people uh f find it uh irritating uh when they cannot find a rem their remote control, [speaker001:] That's like a button on your TV? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Remote, okay. [speaker004:] so uh I think it's a bee beep to sound it and uh you can find it. And another thing uh they want was uh speech recognition um so they can say uh what they want to [disfmarker] let's go to channel one and uh that's uh kind of things. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] And they want maybe an uh LCD screen um to to look it um wh what's on every channel uh and uh what do I want with it? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We wanna have a little preview on the remote control. Preview what's on the channel. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Is that manageable? 'Cause it sounds pretty expensive too. [speaker001:] That sounds too [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's possible, but uh I think it's expensive, but do continue. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. Um [disfmarker] Uh my personal preferences is uh a button for my favourite channel, so I can uh I dunno, so I can zap to my uh f uh quick uh to my favourite channel wh what I uh [disfmarker] so, the remote mu must see or um must um [vocalsound] see wha what mine preferences are for which channel, [speaker001:] Okay, you don't set it yourself, [speaker004:] so I can zap t to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] it just remembers the channel that you are on most, for example. [speaker004:] What? [speaker001:] You want the [disfmarker] you want it to be programmed, for example [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] y programmed f or you want it to recognise your favourite channel? [speaker004:] Yeah. Recognise [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Let's see, you you spend twenty minutes each day on that channel, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so it recognises your favourite channel. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's uh what my personal preference like. [speaker001:] Okay, so it's it it does [disfmarker] it recognise itself, you don't have to set it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] No, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] itself. Maybe it's easier to [vocalsound] to sell it, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] I don't know it's manageable, but we will uh we will see. [speaker001:] I see. [speaker004:] Yeah, it's a little bit uh it's the end of it. It's a little bit uh I lost it, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] the computer uh crashed, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] No problem, it's it's okay, [speaker004:] so. [speaker001:] that's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Shall I go? [speaker001:] Yeah, go ahead. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So, some technical functions. [speaker004:] Darn computer. [speaker002:] Basically I have some issues which you discussed earlier. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Uh let's just start with the method. [vocalsound] It sounds really easy, what does the user do, what does the th remote control do, but there are quite some issues. So the things I'm going to concentrate on are the user aspect, because the technical aspect, that's pretty much covered. We can do that. What goes wrong [vocalsound] at the user. Gets the remote control. Where is the remote control? We've all had it once, I want to watch some television, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] where's the remote control? That was one of your ideas which you posted in the network folder, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That seems very good. [speaker002:] a really good idea. Uh these are just the issues. I come to some uh personal experience, findings, possible solutions later. Searches for the button. There are many buttons on a remote control which are not clear. Uh so either we lose those or we try to make it a little bit more clear. [speaker004:] Mm uh. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Uh also symbols tend to fade after a while. There's nothing more annoying than faded symbols, because you don't know which channel is this button, so possibly we could find uh something for that, [speaker001:] Okay, so have it more [disfmarker] make it more durable actually. [speaker002:] yes. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Uh covered that. Oh yes, user presses the button. Um usually when you have a lot of buttons, buttons are small. So you press more once remote control goes kablouey or something like that, [speaker001:] Okay, so the buttons should be [disfmarker] [speaker002:] so we have to pay attention not to put too mun too many buttons on uh the remote control. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Yeah. [speaker002:] And possibly also the size, so more important buttons, bigger [speaker001:] Wow. The s Yeah. Make it [disfmarker] make them bigger. [speaker002:] si [speaker001:] Even more durable uh. [speaker002:] So this is basically what I h had in mind in the [disfmarker] fade-proof symbols, locator, a sound, uh so clear we should stick to existing symbols, but maybe we could do a little uh investigation to see whether some symbols are uh [disfmarker] need to be replaced by others. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] This I pretty much covered. [vocalsound] So what we want to go to is not this one, but more [disfmarker] less buttons, easy, some bigger buttons. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's true. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So that's basically uh what I had in mind. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's clear. [speaker002:] This is not the final design, this is just a general idea of how I'd like to see uh basically the general idea. [speaker001:] No, of course uh [disfmarker] Yeah. I must say that it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] that was it. [speaker001:] That was it. Okay, that was good. So we agree on the the part that we need to get something on the on the remote to find it somewhere [speaker002:] Yeah, I think it's a really good idea. [speaker001:] and increase it [disfmarker] the durability of of the thing, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] The other aspects, we'll just see how [disfmarker] what you came up with and what's possible for that budget. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Okay, that's fine. Um. Okay, now work a little with me. Okay. Well, let's start it as it is. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay, uh the method. There are a few questions that need to be answered, uh you already uh talked about it a little bit. Which buttons are wanted, uh is our remote control universal or should it be programmable. Uh if it should be programmeab grammeale then we need um something like a mode that you can switch it. Because then the buttons have to send out a different signal then they would normally do. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] And uh how big is the remote control uh going to be? I'll tell you why that's important to me. Um there are a lot of technical parts in the remote control, so uh uh that's [vocalsound] why I also would like to say uh go a little bit easy on the designs, uh I heard ab uh you talking about beeps and about uh video screens, but uh the material inside and the technical aspects are quite complex already. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] So keep in mind that everything that you keep uh [disfmarker] think of, it has to b to be built. So it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Of course, hmm. [speaker003:] that's not as easy as it s might look like. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Uh material study, I'm working on that um for the the costs. I have to check out how far I can go with that. Normally, a circuit board is made of fibreglass uh and the wires are made of copper. Uh that is how it is done and all the remote controls work that way, I think we can just go on with that. Um then I've read more integration of materials means less cost for the production. The more we can make uh at once uh in one piece, uh that is cheaper. [speaker001:] You mean integrate them all into the circuit board. [speaker003:] Exactly, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] so if we make a circuit board with the the connections already on it, then that's cheaper. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] So we have to [vocalsound] make something that's not too difficult in design again. [speaker001:] So you have [disfmarker] [speaker003:] This is what look like uh looks like if you press one button, so this is not the entire thing. You have the the power coming in, then you have like a switch. The switch uh uh [vocalsound] uh if you p press it then some electrical charge goes into the processor, that thinks over a Morse code, that's how you should see it. The Morse code goes to the amplifier, then uh the signal is sent to two uh light bulbs. You have infrared and an interv um [vocalsound] uh how to say it? Uh a light in indication, light that you know that it's functioning. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Uh here again, that's my story about the different modes, if you do want to make remote uh universal, then the processor has to uh make up a different Morse code when some button is pressed. That makes it much more complex, so we really need to have a look, do we want that or not. Uh I don't have any personal p uh preferences uh so far, except for uh the materials to be used uh light, that they are light. [speaker001:] Okay. Okay. That was it? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] That was it. [speaker001:] I'll get back to my thing then. Uh [disfmarker] Okay, back this up [disfmarker] to the screen. So I got some new information on the project specifications are changing a little. Like you said uh teletext is not not very popular anymore because the uh the internet, nowadays people don't use the teletext anymore or hardly, so it can either [disfmarker] Well, I don't think we should remove the button, because there are always people who are using it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But I don't think it should be [vocalsound] very [disfmarker] it should be one of the big buttons for example. Just put it somewhere or under second option or whatever. It's not important anymore. Um we're targeting young people now, because our um [disfmarker] [vocalsound] This is a new product and with this new product we want to appeal to younger people, [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker001:] which are [disfmarker] um the younger people were defined under forty. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I so I think it's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] B [speaker001:] that's also good with the fashion and everything, so yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, and they want to pay for it and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] They want to pay for it, people are willing to spend money actually to buy a um remote that they like. [speaker004:] With more [disfmarker] Where [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If they like the way it looks, the way it functions, so they're actually gonna spend uh spend money on it. [speaker004:] with more technical specifications [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] in the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap] [vocalsound] see how far we can go with it anyway, so [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [disfmarker] And one thing that should be important is that the corporate l colour and slogan are recognisable, which is apparently [vocalsound] black and yellow, but [disfmarker] I'm not sure if we [disfmarker] I think we should keep the the logo in mind, because with colours you can uh have a lot of uh fashionable colours and everything on it, which suits everybody's taste. So [disfmarker] With that concept I started thinking, so why not just steal Nokia's idea and just make changeable covers for your [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] I mean those cost hardly anything I think, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and people could even spend extra money on buying a cover and so have an entire new remote control that they like to see. Or we can sh for example we can make a different [vocalsound] [disfmarker] a basic design. And sell the covers separately, for example. That's just a little marketing idea that could be applied, so you can p it appeals to really everyone. So you don't have to [disfmarker] I think you don't have to make entire remote controls. We make a basic one and manufacture this cover separately. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So that was that was my idea on what we could do to appeal this product to everyone. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So just [disfmarker] I'm not sure if you came up with anything in the meantime, after making a presentation. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Would you like to share? [speaker003:] No, I think this is a good idea. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] oh? [speaker002:] Is it manageable? Is it easy? [speaker003:] Go ahead. [speaker004:] Yeah, with with an LCD screen you can [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh yeah. I think we should lose the LCD screen, [speaker003:] Y Yes, I think so too. [speaker001:] like you said. [speaker004:] Why? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think for example it's it's huge [disfmarker] I think the LCD is huge, [speaker004:] Nokia w [speaker001:] it consumes batteries like hell. [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker001:] I think it takes up a lot of a lot of power. [speaker002:] And it costs too much to fabricate, [speaker001:] It costs a lot, I think. [speaker002:] so we're on a tight budget here. [speaker003:] Okay, uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] What we could do, what could be possible, is maybe not an LCD screen but with a preview, but y I'm not sure if it's even possible [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] For example, a little TV guide. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Like you have a little [disfmarker] just just a text only, not colour, just a little text thing [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so you can use your remote as a TV guide. I'm not sure it's even possible, [speaker003:] Hmm. I have to check that out, [speaker001:] but maybe okay, make it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I'm not sure. [speaker001:] Yeah, find a little compromise in that, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What did I write down? I think the p yeah, the beep is a very simple thing to imple implement, just make a button on your TV [speaker003:] That must be possible. [speaker001:] and just hit the button, it beeps somewhere. I think it's easy to implement, [speaker003:] Ja. [speaker001:] we should go for that. [speaker003:] I'm sorry, whe where do you wanna hit the T [disfmarker] you wanna [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh speech recognition. [speaker003:] we want a button on the television. [gap] [speaker001:] I thin [vocalsound] Yeah, I mean where else should you put it? [speaker003:] In th okay, but that rules out a universal remote control. Because that's not possible uh. [speaker001:] Yeah, but [vocalsound] how are you gonna use that if your [disfmarker] I mean if your remote control is lost, how are you gonna press [disfmarker] where are you gonna press the button? [speaker003:] Uh. Yeah. Exactly. [speaker002:] Maybe just a slap-on sticker with a button which sends out a small signal. [speaker001:] A slap-on sticker. Oh, you mean as like a separate thing you can attach to your TV. [speaker004:] Mm uh. [speaker002:] Yeah, exactly. [speaker001:] Yeah, that could be possible. A little little box you can attach to your TV is fine then, okay. [speaker003:] Okay, then uh I'd I'd like to know now if we want the uh universal remote control or not, because that's uh determines everything I'm gonna do. [speaker001:] I think it's universal. I think we should go for universal, [speaker003:] If not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because apparently we're a separate company making separate c remote controls to sell to a lot of diverse people. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think universal remote control should be possible. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, [speaker004:] Everyone uh wants to buy it, [speaker003:] then I go for that. [speaker004:] so we w [speaker001:] Yeah, I think we're targeting everyone, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker001:] so remote [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. No, it's fine with me, but then I know what to look for. [speaker001:] Okay, universal is good. Speech recognition, I think it's very hard, because we're selling across multiple countries. So I think implementing speech recognition is such a small um apparatus, it's very hard to do. [speaker004:] Yeah. Or one. Or when you say one two uh i it uh it's enough, [speaker002:] And it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, but I don't see Arabian people speaking one, two uh whatever. [speaker004:] right? But [disfmarker] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] Besides that, the technology isn't really super yet, so that [vocalsound] is a problem in implementing this. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. It's not a mature technology, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker001:] I think it takes a lot of memory and everything in in a remote control, [speaker002:] It's a good idea, [speaker001:] so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but it's just not [disfmarker] I don't think the market's ripe for that yet. [speaker001:] I don't think it should be implemented in a remote control yet uh. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What else do we have? Um well you should you should look into the in into the materials that are real durable. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So the the the symbols won't fade, maybe a little harder plastic [speaker003:] Exactly. I already noted that. [speaker001:] or especially li we don't [disfmarker] maybe we don't have have to do all the buttons, but especially the ones that are um the popular buttons, [speaker003:] Mm, okay. Okay. [speaker001:] so those always fade first. Mm the thing is the most important things that we have now. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Let's see. [speaker003:] If we uh make a remote control with changeable covers, then we can also make uh a cover for every language area. That's fo [vocalsound] is [speaker001:] For example? [speaker003:] uh especially for older people, that they can read it read it in their own language. [speaker001:] Well, we're not we're not targeting older people, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] we should remember that. Everything we target is under forty, [speaker003:] That's [disfmarker] okay, okay. [speaker001:] so. You assume that that they read correctly and I think they're [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] The most important thing about young people is that they're really sensitive to to trends that are passing through the world, [speaker004:] But b [speaker003:] Uh okay. [speaker001:] so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But should the exchangeable covers include the buttons themselves or just the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, of course. No, I think it's just something you you put over them, because [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah we c Yeah, you ca Well, [speaker004:] But every [disfmarker] [speaker002:] C [speaker001:] tha that's not a that's not a bad [disfmarker] that's not even [disfmarker] [speaker002:] that's a problem with the with the text then. [speaker001:] it's not even a bad idea. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I mean, for example, if you're if you're into the durability issue you could [disfmarker] For example, if your buttons are faded, after [disfmarker] I mean if you make a durable remote, they are faded, you can just buy a new cover. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Uh I'm not sure it's it's hard to make. [speaker003:] Okay. [vocalsound] Uh but I know that the buttons are like a Nokia telephone on uh one sleeve, [speaker001:] So it's a good and a bad idea. [speaker003:] so you don't have to change your whole cover. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Uh we can make something that you can only remove the sleeve. Know what I mean? [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker002:] Oh yeah, I know what you mean. [speaker003:] It works the same as a Nokia telephone, it's it's in my uh [disfmarker] 'kay. [speaker001:] Yeah, I know, it's just just a one one piece of rubber for example, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Exactly. [speaker001:] okay. Yeah, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] that's what I [disfmarker] something I have to look into. Either either change both the buttons and and the cover or just the cover, I'm not sure which which is easier, [speaker003:] Hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] so [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Um anyway, yeah, this is what we're gonna do afterwards, just lunch break and have more individual work after that, so let's see what we [disfmarker] let's see we [disfmarker] So you have to come up with a components concept, yeah. I want some [disfmarker] you should do some trend-watching, because even if we're if we're gonna do those covers and everything, what people really want, that's what we need to know in this phase, [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] because that's gonna be the essential final design that we're gonna come up with. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] Yeah, I think user interface is fairly obvious. I mean it should be very intuitive, [speaker002:] Pretty straightforward. [speaker001:] s Yeah, it should speak for itself. Uh for example I bought a remote control last week with a new TV, it was it l it's like all buttons and you have no idea what it does at first, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and I'm [gap] total TV new, anyway. So I think it should be [disfmarker] have less or l very little buttons and maybe a second [vocalsound] second level menu for the advanced things. Or maybe just stick 'em under a menu, like you said the um [vocalsound] the sound options and the surround and whatever, they're more complicated, just stick 'em under one menu and uh give it a [disfmarker] just put it in in s in a software piece, you can menu and you can uh select everything you want to to set on your TV. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Is it techni technically possible to uh [vocalsound] send a signal to a television and then pops up a menu, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because we're working with different types of television, so we're going to work with that? [speaker001:] That is true. [speaker003:] I don't think so. [speaker001:] No, that's true. [speaker003:] No, I don't think so. Because the television needs to respond to the signal, [speaker001:] Yeah, that's true. [speaker002:] It's an in-built menu, [speaker003:] and if it doesn't know how, it's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] isn't it? Yes. [speaker003:] Exactly, that's not possible. [speaker002:] So basically we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm not sure if it's impossible, but uh there's a chance it's not, so. [speaker002:] Or we could use a double-sided [disfmarker] for [vocalsound] less used functions you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] A double-sided remote control? [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] I don't think that's useful. [speaker002:] with the cover. [vocalsound] I it's basically an idea to overcome these issues, because [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, but then you're gonna have a lot of wasted buttons. For example you have a Sony TV and the half of the buttons won't function if you have a [disfmarker] for a Sony that won't [disfmarker] for a Philips TV. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] No, but basic functions [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but functions which are not frequently used. Because if we use a universal remote control, we're going to have to have most buttons on it, [speaker001:] I don't think we should [disfmarker] Yeah, for exam [speaker002:] so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm yeah. [speaker001:] I'm not s yeah, for ex you have to make it a little decision between the part if you want a universal remote control that [disfmarker] it should do what people usually do with their TVs, not not the very complicated settings [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] that you can usually do that with uh either a old old remote control if they really hate that thing, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] but you can't you cannot take into consideration all the different brands of TVs. [speaker003:] But that might be broken. [speaker001:] I think there's I think there is a standard for example between uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] Hmm. [speaker001:] because usually the the menu is [disfmarker] the menu button is is usable between different brands. Especially the big ones, the big brands, [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] so. 'Cause everybody [disfmarker] I have a universal remote control and it can use the menu button, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] so I think [disfmarker] I'm not sure, if you can put some research into that, if it's possible. Uh I think just a b [speaker003:] Mm okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and the navigation is very basic, [speaker003:] Mm. But I think there must be a way uh to invoke the more complicated functions of a television. [speaker001:] it's usually the same thing. [speaker003:] For instance, if your old remote control is broken and you buy ours, then uh you should be able to get everything out of the television that's in it. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I think so [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Because otherwise you'll lose functions by buying our [disfmarker] [speaker001:] uh we need to put some research into that if if we can open the menu, I think it's possible, [speaker003:] Okay, [speaker001:] just the way how to. [speaker003:] I thi I think so too. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, then then you could do everything I suppose, because usually the TVs have tha that inside in this other little piece of software, so it's okay. [speaker003:] And I think that our r remote control should not look like uh any other. For instance uh Sony makes all their remote controls exactly the same for all their devices, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] and you always grab the wrong one because formatting of the buttons is exactly the same, only the labels are different. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah I think it should be a little distinct from everything else, [speaker003:] We should not do that. Exactly. [speaker001:] because it's [disfmarker] either it's both [gap] mayb [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, I have some ideas. I have some ideas. [speaker001:] maybe the shape can be a little different. Maybe it's a little more curves or whatever. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] Mm that's your uh division. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And uh with different colours uh. [speaker001:] So um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I'll put some on paper and present them next time uh the ideas that I have. [speaker001:] Yeah, this [gap]. Not sure what [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] because we have forty minutes, I'm not sure how much time we have left for the meeting anyway, so. [speaker002:] I heard a beep go. [speaker001:] Yeah, but it wasn't me, it was him closing something. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So anyway, yeah, we could do some i do some work now on on the design for example. I mean what do you want, do you want [gap], but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, but we like some some curves or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, may maybe something like this. But though smooth inside. So you have the transmitter here for example. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Let's see that you [disfmarker] what would be handy. [speaker004:] Uh. And a light uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I think that the [vocalsound] the buttons should be [disfmarker] the channel buttons should be [vocalsound] uh on their own. Let's see one, two [disfmarker] God damn it. [speaker002:] Oh, we get the general ideas, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. [vocalsound] Another one here. Let's see what [disfmarker] I think this should [disfmarker] these are always on top of the of the control, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] so they should be here. [speaker002:] Yeah, and since you're holding it like this, I suggest you put the channel up channel down and volume [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Think it's like this. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Volume. [speaker001:] Withi within the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] yeah yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, just take it. [speaker002:] So you have the up channel [vocalsound] the down channel [disfmarker] the volume, do we want that horizontal or vertical? [speaker001:] Do you take triangles or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Uh it's it's fine, I think. [speaker001:] Um I think it should be I think it [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] This is basically what people are accustomed to, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Maybe we should make 'em bigger or whatever. [speaker002:] Yeah, but this is just a g general idea. [speaker004:] Oh d [gap] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Uh maybe the menu button can go i in the middle. [speaker001:] Yeah, in the middle. It's it's usually uh there, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Whoa. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Perhaps we should also make uh something like a flash on it, if you [disfmarker] if it's lost, for people that are deaf. They they won't hear the the beep. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, but for example if it's lost in your armchair, we'll not see the flash. [speaker002:] You won't be able to find it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And flash takes up a lot of batteries again. [speaker003:] Uh. Yeah, it's true, but it's it's only has to do so when you press the button that it's lost. [speaker004:] Just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] We could make a combination that it goes beep and that you [disfmarker] that some light lights up. [speaker003:] So. [speaker004:] And LED uh on it. [speaker003:] [gap] deaf people? [speaker001:] Yeah, I thought about for deaf people for example, so. We could do that. [speaker004:] Just a light on it [speaker001:] Uh let's see. [speaker004:] or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So we have the basic channels we've got here, uh the power button somewhere over here? [speaker001:] Oh yeah, it's true. Um that thing should be central. [speaker004:] Very important. [speaker001:] You shouldn't be [disfmarker] you uh shouldn't press it by accident, but it shouldn't be stacked away somewhere. [speaker004:] Oh, [speaker002:] I usually press it on top. [speaker004:] that's [disfmarker] It's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] At least that's what I'm accustomed to. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I have another idea, [speaker001:] Yeah, like that's gonna work. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'm not sure if it's possible. [speaker004:] And [disfmarker] [speaker002:] What would you like to [gap]? [speaker001:] Yeah, I thought maybe we should move the buttons down [speaker004:] But you r [speaker001:] and put it here for example [speaker004:] And you are reading from the t [speaker001:] to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] you always read from the top to the the bottom of it. [speaker001:] From top to bottom. Yeah, that's true, [speaker004:] Yeah, so it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] you should [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] I think the bu the power button should be on top, 'cause it's the first thing you do [vocalsound], turn it on. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So power button on top. Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay, mute button. Is that somewhere here? [speaker001:] Mute. Do we hardly [disfmarker] I think it should be at the bottom somewhere. [speaker002:] Is that used often? [speaker004:] So i it's [disfmarker] sorry? [speaker002:] The mute button? Do people use that often? [speaker001:] Mute. Turn the sound off. [speaker004:] No, it's [disfmarker] no. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] 'Cause uh I'm pretty much accustomed to it [vocalsound] right over here, at least in general, [speaker004:] Uh. Hmm. [speaker002:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I don't think it's important, [speaker002:] It's not that important, no. [speaker001:] [gap] but I think it I think it should be [disfmarker] you c you could put it somewhere here. [speaker004:] Or or with the volume selection. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No, because it [disfmarker] Yeah, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Around uh not uh not at top at the [disfmarker] around the volume selection. [speaker001:] people are accustomed to that, it's [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Can I have that? [speaker004:] I don't know where exactly, [speaker002:] Sure. [speaker001:] That's j [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Take this out and here see [disfmarker] Uh are we gonna take triangles anyway? I'm drawing triangles, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] That's pretty much what people are accustomed to, aren't they? [speaker001:] Yeah, it's maybe a bigger lesser than thing. So anyway, I think this is [disfmarker] should be the channels and [disfmarker] or sh [speaker004:] Wha [speaker002:] Well, I'm accustomed to the channels being on top. [speaker004:] No. Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Here, [speaker003:] Yeah, me too. [speaker001:] okay. Okay, [speaker004:] Yeah, that's better. On the right. [speaker001:] should we chan okay, [vocalsound] this two, channel up and down. [speaker003:] Shall we uh also look if it's possible to make a rechargeable remote? That you don't have to buy new batteries if every [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well, for [disfmarker] that is it's on one part it's um it's a good thing to recharge it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Maybe it's more ex expensive. [speaker003:] Mm, yeah. [speaker001:] Maybe we should [disfmarker] what what could be possible is one with rechargeable batteries for example. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker001:] You have [disfmarker] just put Penlite batteries that are rechargeable, [speaker003:] But that's already possible. [speaker001:] because it's an it's it's it's very annoying. [speaker002:] But isn't that expensive in the entire package? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm not sure y [vocalsound] I'm not sure it's [disfmarker] if it's expensive, but just take a look at it, because it might be a very good idea. Because if [disfmarker] it's it's uh useful to have it rechargeable, [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] but at the same time, if you don't want recha if you forgot to recharge it and you wanna watch TV now, you wanna be able to put different batteries in it, use it now and not in half an hour. [speaker003:] Yes. Okay. Uh you could make a device, but I'm not sure how that uh is possible with the costs, that you can put in normal batteries, rechargeable, but it [disfmarker] you're [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I think I have a nice idea. [speaker003:] the remote also can act as a recharger. So then you can choose, you have every decision. Know what I mean? [speaker001:] Not exactly uh. [speaker003:] You can uh put in normal Penlites, rechargeable Penlites, [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker003:] but they can also be recharged with the remote, with a wire. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] I think it's uh it's a pretty good idea [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] to have uh like sort of a [disfmarker] maybe a base station that you put on the TV. Could be flat, you could insert your uh remote into it. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's g [speaker003:] But I think that will cost a lot. Uh a normal wire would be better. [speaker001:] I'm not sure. [speaker003:] Like a like a PDA, a hand-held. You can uh just put it in the electricity and it charges itself, [speaker001:] A what? [speaker003:] you don't need basic station. [speaker001:] Well, we were talking about the fact that we wanted to insert either a beep or a flash into the thing with a little separate signal [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] or [disfmarker] So you could put that on a TV for example. [speaker003:] That is possible, that's true. [speaker001:] It could be very flat, [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] Which [disfmarker] [speaker001:] could be very small. It's a very small [disfmarker] Yeah, I'm drawing it big now, but [disfmarker] So you can put your remote on flat for example. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And at the backside of remote just just just a little hole [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] for example um you just [vocalsound] put it down, it recharges for example. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I don't think it's very expensive. [speaker002:] But again, isn't that too expensive? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] 'Cause that means that we have to implement rechargeable batteries, a docking station [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm not sure if it costs a lot, that that's what he r [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] That's that you [disfmarker] that's what you buy yourself. [speaker003:] Yes. I'm going to try to find that out. I'm not sure if there's information available on this, [speaker001:] It's just an idea, [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] we have to find out if it's possible. [speaker003:] but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And do people actually want that? To pay extra [disfmarker] they want to pay for rechargeable? [speaker004:] Yeah, they want to pay for it. [speaker001:] Do they want [disfmarker] but they want a rechargeable one? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm not sure, you should find out if it's [disfmarker] if rechargeable is important. [speaker004:] Th uh there was not a el ask esque [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. These are uh comfort issues. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So I think people will pay [disfmarker] they wanted to pay for comfort. Well, this is comfort. [speaker001:] They want to pay for comfort, we just assu we we could either make a separate station which just sends a signal to the remote control to either beep or flash to find it, [speaker004:] But f hmm. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] um and [disfmarker] Yeah, we have to [disfmarker] either that or make it integrated with a with a docking station. [speaker003:] Hmm. Yeah. Exactly. I think this is a brilliant product. I would buy it myself. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I think it would be good actually. I like the beep part [vocalsound] anyway. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker001:] So um [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] let's go through the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I like the covers. That's a brilliant idea. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Can can we save this or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I never thought [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Covers is covers is good. Yeah, it's [disfmarker] Oh we can save this. Up and saved. We even saved the ant. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [gap] Um [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Okay. So [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] what we have is [disfmarker] you have [disfmarker] I think you have [vocalsound] to do a lot of work on if it's possible for the cost. [speaker003:] I hope if I have information about that, [speaker001:] Maybe [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I'm gonna [disfmarker] [speaker001:] yeah, or [vocalsound] maybe you can find out i what people are willing to pay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We are going for twenty five Euros sales price, [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. [speaker001:] but just try to find out what they're willing to pay for it, [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah. [speaker001:] because if they're willing to pay more, we could lose a little profit and maybe attract more customers, [speaker003:] Mm. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] uh we just have to see what it looks like. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I would like to make a decision [gap]. What it costs and what kind of materials that we can uh choose what we want in it [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, if you have some financial information that that'd be nice, [speaker003:] and [disfmarker] exactly, I need it. [speaker001:] so. Hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Could you post some [vocalsound] other essentials of what people want, so that I can work with some buttons, where to put it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You seem to have information on that, I'd like to uh see some of it. [speaker003:] Was it not possible to uh send emails around the office? [speaker001:] No, it wasn't wasn't allo [speaker002:] No, it's not. No. [speaker003:] Not [gap]. [speaker001:] it was possible, not allowed, so. So that's um why I'm not sure that [vocalsound] you're allowed to share documents on the on the draft. [speaker004:] Yeah. My computer crashed, so uh [speaker003:] Yeah, okay. [speaker001:] I don't care. [speaker004:] I lost my uh presentation, [speaker001:] I haven't heard any complaints yet, [speaker002:] Oh, your computer. Okay. [speaker001:] so. Um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] but I have the uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, I have your PowerPoint presentation, I can get some inf information out of that. [speaker004:] Yeah, but I Here I have the the s the homepage of uh our internet, [speaker002:] Let's see. [speaker001:] Yeah, the oh, they inc uh [speaker004:] and here is my [speaker001:] they include the new one. [vocalsound] Or just for you. [speaker002:] Oh, where would we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] here is my marketing report, maybe you ca you can look at uh [vocalsound] that [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh no, I didn't have that. [speaker004:] and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Where would we want the uh teletext button? [speaker004:] Ah yeah. [speaker002:] Because we decided that it's n not that important. [speaker004:] And one [disfmarker] [speaker001:] All it tells [gap] just [disfmarker] let's make make a new [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Do we put it somewhere over here? [speaker001:] tick the new one. [vocalsound] Um other side. Yeah, let's increase it a little because [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And uh wha what people want, I've uh [speaker002:] Or maybe this is something for the next meeting, I can draw out some ideas. [speaker001:] Yeah, draw us up some some designs of of possible [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I have another thing uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] just keep in mind that the important buttons should be on top and either big, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so the more [disfmarker] less important [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, we have decided [vocalsound] more or less the basic structure. [speaker001:] More or less. [speaker002:] I can put the other buttons in [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Just play a little with this, put l shift a little up or down [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and we'll see what looks best. [speaker003:] What uh what did you wanna say? [speaker001:] Or just po post your designs from time to time on the product share. [speaker004:] Yeah. Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh what I al already said is the the uh the remote controls are always lost, [speaker002:] Maybe another idea uh. [speaker004:] but it it's also for people, [vocalsound] they want to learn it fast, not uh [disfmarker] they want to [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah, so we don't want [gap] we want very little buttons, just the buttons you use a lot. [speaker004:] No [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] It's [disfmarker] yeah, it's easy to learn [speaker002:] Yes, but it should cover all the functions, [speaker004:] wi and uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] so possibly, just an idea that popped in [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well what [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] we had function that what people do, so. People change channels, people [vocalsound] [disfmarker] they change the volume and they they change channel, they turn TV off and on, for example. That's the basic fu that's what you do [disfmarker] I'm not sure who present that again, but those are the basic function that people use it for, so those should be very well represented. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker004:] And [disfmarker] The [disfmarker] If [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but we could go a step further, because some TVs have the uh possibility to adjust brightness, that kind of menus. [speaker001:] That's true, but that's what we stick under the menu button. Everything is [disfmarker] you say in every TV that's configured under the menu. [speaker002:] Yes, but it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But that's the question, [speaker002:] Because we're making [disfmarker] [speaker003:] is it? [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Because it needs to be configured in the television under the menu. [speaker001:] Yeah, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] If it isn't, then we cannot reach it. [speaker002:] We need to adjust to the [vocalsound] technology. [speaker001:] But I think most modern TVs have it in their menu. [speaker003:] I think so too. I think so too. [speaker002:] True. [speaker003:] Uh isn't there a possibility to do research on that, so we know that for sure? If you rule out functions, then uh [disfmarker] and that gets known, then people are not gonna buy it. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] Then the consumer bond or something says uh you cannot do this and that with it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] No, I thi [speaker004:] If um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] That's a bad bad com [vocalsound] commercial [speaker001:] Uh we'll we'll see what we can come up with. [speaker003:] for [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Another thing I want to say is that uh we are looking at the market for the age uh [vocalsound] younger than forty. [speaker003:] okay. [speaker001:] Under forty. Yeah? [speaker003:] That's true. [speaker004:] Um on my report, [vocalsound] I didn't uh [vocalsound] ish I didn't show it in my uh presentation, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] because my computer crashed. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. [speaker004:] Um they want to pay for an LCD screen and speech recognition. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] The want to pay for [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Did they really said it like that? Those two things. [speaker004:] i yeah. Yeah, and [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Do they realise how much that costs? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh shall we? [speaker003:] That's almost undoable. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Oh, we're not going to be able to sell it for twenty-five then, with an LCD screen. [speaker001:] Younger, age sixteen and forty five. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] That's all here, here it says [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No, that's that's [gap]. Even if i if we have this lost unit, then we cannot do it for that price. [speaker001:] Yeah, age sixteen forty fi interest in main features more critical. [speaker004:] If if they [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, so we're not focusing on this. Um [disfmarker] All the interest in features, not really the LC [disfmarker] oh here. Would you pay for uh speech recognition in a remote control. Hmm, okay? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that's true. [speaker004:] So uh [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] we can [speaker001:] Speech recognition is quite [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We can look at the possibilities for an uh LCD and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, just look at the possibilities then, [speaker004:] I dunno. Yeah. [speaker001:] because if [disfmarker] apparently it's what people want, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] How much it will cost [speaker001:] it's supposed to be a luxurious remote, [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker004:] and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] maybe it's not even that expensive. Or find a compromise, maybe just a black and white or [disfmarker] for some extra information on it, on your programmes. [speaker003:] Uh I [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well I doubt it, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But I really need finance information. [speaker001:] Me too. [vocalsound] I mean we all do. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It will come uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] We all do. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Right. I think it's something we should put into consideration. Apparently it's what people want, so. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] We should see if [disfmarker] what it costs, if it's possible. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Yeah, we should do a little thing about design, because it looks boring really to me. Even if you put it [disfmarker] even if you put a different cover on it, it looks [disfmarker] still looks boring, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Different colours maybe. [speaker001:] so. [speaker003:] Hmm. And the design, it should differ. [speaker004:] But all [disfmarker] [speaker003:] This is Philips, huh? Philips has this. [speaker001:] I have no clue. [speaker002:] Well, [speaker001:] I just drew something what [disfmarker] which would fit into your hand easily. [speaker002:] I had basically [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. Hmm. Uh. [speaker002:] Something like this. To make it kind of futuristic. [speaker003:] Mm. Oh, I realise if we make it small, then it needs to be a little thicker, [speaker001:] I think it's a very [disfmarker] [speaker003:] because I need to put all the electronics in it. [speaker001:] Sorry? [speaker003:] If we make it s uh smaller, uh less wide, then we need to m make it a little thicker, [speaker001:] Yeah? [speaker003:] because I have to put all the electronics in it. [speaker001:] Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but you have to j just keep in mind it shouldn't be too heavy. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] I mean we can stick it in in there, I think. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] Huh [speaker002:] So what kind of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] even if [disfmarker] in the worst case we can even [disfmarker] Could you give me the pen back? [speaker002:] Yeah, sure. [speaker001:] So let's say that people would want an LCD thing. Let's take take the basic design again, what we [disfmarker] oh, crap [disfmarker] uh came up with. I'll just make it a little bigger now. So a transmitter here. Anyway. We could [disfmarker] let's say we have an LCD screen, people want an LCD screen. So then we should probably put it here. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It doesn't have to be really big, but just just have to be [disfmarker] has to be there. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Think it's a good place, people don't [disfmarker] [speaker004:] If you're reading from top to bottom, I think it's better to put it uh at the top. [speaker001:] No? It's not that uh [disfmarker] it's not the most important function, [speaker003:] Me too. [speaker004:] It's j [vocalsound] [speaker001:] it's just an extra thing, [speaker003:] Ah [speaker001:] it just [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh. But i if you if you are going to uh put the LCD on it, [vocalsound] I think it's very important to use it, [speaker001:] you press the buttons on top, [speaker003:] but [gap]. [speaker001:] because your finger is on top. [speaker004:] uh because it's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] use it uh [speaker001:] How can you use an LCD screen? [speaker004:] But nee the function of it. [vocalsound] So you can use it maximum, because uh it's a lot [disfmarker] it costs a lot. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, but why I [disfmarker] I'm not sure. [speaker002:] Now it's pretty much tucked away in your hand. [speaker001:] Uh if you t if you press a button, you can see it, [speaker003:] Hmm. No. [speaker001:] ri I'm not sure wha I'm trying to imagine myself what it would look like. [speaker003:] M I personally would prefer it on the top. [speaker002:] I'm [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You would prefer it [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] n Okay. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] So we have three people saying it should be on top. Okay, [speaker003:] But it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but then you would would s have to stack away your buttons somewhere else. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Anyways. [speaker004:] It's expensive to build it, so [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Uh this looks a little [disfmarker] [speaker004:] you must use the maximum of it. [speaker002:] I'm still not convinced of the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] About the LCDs thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Well if it if it's if it's possible wi if it's not too expensive, we should include it, [speaker003:] They want it uh. [speaker001:] because it's it's cool. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We should just try to make that if it's possible. If it is possible we should really do it, but we need that information. [speaker004:] Huh. Uh. But uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Also keep in mind again, the LCD screen is very flat, but it needs transistors, resistors, I don't know what more and that needs space. So I have to look if that's possible. [speaker004:] Yeah, I know uh. [speaker003:] But if we [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So basically [disfmarker] can I [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Uh we have green now uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] what we have to decide now is uh what goes on top. Do we put the volume control and the channel control here, or do we put it on he Would we like to press it in the middle? [speaker004:] In middle of it. [speaker001:] Or maybe we should m we could uh draw draw something a bit [disfmarker] that has it on on on the bottom. [speaker004:] In the middle. [speaker001:] Maybe in a circle for example, like we [disfmarker] like in this example. I think this is not good, but for [disfmarker] we could make circular buttons for example. For up and down, ma make it a circle on it, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Yes, but we do agree that we [vocalsound] keep this at the centre, [speaker001:] because it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] because it's basically the most important function. [speaker001:] I think the channel button should be in the centre. [speaker004:] It's the most import yeah. [speaker001:] Channel button should be st stick together, for example here in this section. Because it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, that would make them quite small. [speaker001:] We're not sure about the size anyway, [speaker002:] So maybe you'd put them here. [speaker001:] just a general design. You can make it as big as you want. For example if you take uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yes, but a big remote control probably not something which people would like. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] No, let's see. For example just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] If we have a a space issue, we can also lose one battery. It is rechargeable, so we can stick with one instead of two. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker003:] That might be an option. [speaker001:] I don't think if we if we even use an LCD screen, we need to, definitely. [speaker003:] Yeah, but if we need two batteries and an LCD screen, that means a lot of space that we need. [speaker001:] Yeah, but we have to see what the si what the size is. [speaker003:] But it has to be a little bit heavier. Okay. [speaker001:] The LCD doesn't have to nee doesn't need to be very big. [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, but the things behind it. [gap] space. [speaker001:] Mm let's see. [speaker003:] Like a process uh. [speaker004:] Finish meeting now. It's on your computer. [speaker001:] Finish meeting now. Okay, we will. [speaker002:] So would we like this [speaker001:] So either [disfmarker] [speaker002:] or would we like the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We either we have to decide what what people want. [speaker003:] I like this one more. [speaker001:] Either this one, this this could be the luxurious one. So we have channel buttons here. I'm just drawing something uh. Uh [disfmarker] I think this would this would look cool. You could have it for example [disfmarker] small buttons here for some extra functions, [speaker004:] Uh. [speaker001:] so if your basic function's here, we should [disfmarker] like we decided before, programmes up and down, and volume here. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Let's see what we have here. [speaker004:] Or [disfmarker] And uh what about speech recognition uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well you can just [disfmarker] no, I'm not sure if we can do that, [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, [speaker001:] but we could put a microphone in here for example. [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] or or an LCD or an uh speech. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] I think it's [disfmarker] LCD is better now. [speaker001:] Just to do research into both, w what it costs and what it takes for space. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I'll try to. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But let's cut the meeting for now yes. [speaker003:] One more uh thing I'd like to say, uh let's give this uh a name, and not like some vague serial number that no one understands, like with cars. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay, yeah, [speaker003:] Shall we all try uh to think about a name? [speaker002:] So I think of a name. [speaker004:] that's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] yeah, that's okay. [speaker001:] Yeah, let's think of a name, okay. Uh okay. [speaker004:] Oh, good. [speaker001:] Okay, at anyways, [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] the the minutes will be on the on the web shortly, so there we go uh. [speaker002:] Yes, go and finish up and I'll see you at lunch. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Good luck. [speaker001:] Yeah, to all. [speaker004:] Same. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah, I've [disfmarker] Do we uh save the [gap]? [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] [gap]. [gap].

[speaker001:] Uh 'kay. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So so so. [speaker002:] Put on your mic. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So you forgot how this works again? [speaker002:] Boss. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] [gap] Boss. [speaker004:] Maybe. Maybe maybe maybe. [speaker001:] Okay so we're here to talk about the detailed design of the product, 'kay? [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] And here's the agenda for this meeting. Uh I'm just gonna open, say a few boring words to start with again, and start taking minutes afterwards. You guys are gonna give us a presentation of our wonder product that I can see some demonstrations of over there. Looks cool. And then we're gonna evaluate it. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Bra [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Then we're gonna talk about finance, and I've got a lovely Excel spreadsheet that I knocked up in the last five minutes for this. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Hmm you knocked it up? [speaker001:] And uh yep. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] And [vocalsound] we're gonna evaluate the product and close. Got forty minutes to do this in. We should be fine. Let's try and keep this one on schedule. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Your thing is in [disfmarker] where is it? [speaker003:] Thi third third third. [speaker001:] Is it in [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Three, three. [speaker003:] The end product thingy. Yeah. [speaker001:] Who wants it? [speaker002:] Pedro can have it. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker002:] I like [disfmarker] I'll help talk. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um yeah so what we ended up with. Production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department, which is us, is uh fifteen point eight Euros, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] someone forgot the [vocalsound] units there [speaker002:] Unit price. [speaker003:] yeah, uh unit price [disfmarker] unit production price cost thing. Um we implemented the basic functions, which is just TV functions plus the locator, which was one of the marketing things, cradle, scroll wheel for uh the [vocalsound] the channels, and uh we implemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping, your favourite channels functionality, in the scroll. [speaker001:] Zapping your favourite channels, eh? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Scrolling through your favourites list. [speaker001:] Oh okay okay. [speaker003:] Zapping you know zapping. [speaker001:] Ah 'kay okay, that's favourites. [speaker003:] Maybe it's just a Portuguese thing [vocalsound]. And um yeah that was the result. [speaker001:] Ah 'kay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I like the the the the logo on there as well. [speaker002:] It's very prominent [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] It is very prominent. So this is the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So [vocalsound] here I'll give you the [disfmarker] so this is the cradle unit, and this is the actual remote itself. Um so the scroll bar is [disfmarker] or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here, um and then the volume controls are here and here. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Uh you've got the keypad which is the numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten. This is the power button. Uh we have our um [vocalsound] we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here? This is the teletext. [speaker003:] Start s the the start uh to to to [speaker002:] The programme button, [speaker003:] programme yeah. [speaker002:] yeah the programme button. [speaker001:] Ah, okay I see. [speaker002:] So this bl this button will be used both for the favourites and for programming [vocalsound] your uh the um the type of television you wanna use. So um the plastic is the white area of this [disfmarker] of the model here, and the red area is like a rubber covering. So you can see that when it lays like this or like this [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's pretty cool. [speaker002:] and the buttons are all gonna be rubber, so it's pretty hard to actually damage it um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Is that [disfmarker] could that be easy to [disfmarker] for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it? [speaker002:] Yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem, but if you drop it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Not helping [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] yeah [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it. [speaker002:] Yeah and it depends on if it's sliding, but I think it's pretty ergonomic. You can feel it. [speaker001:] Mm. Feels good. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I take it that this is gonna be slightly lighter in the final design as well. [speaker002:] Yeah of course. Well this is clay [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah it's kinda cool. You have to reach a little bit don't you. [speaker002:] Yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach, but I think we might scale down the final model a bit. [speaker001:] Ah yeah that wouldn't make sense. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] These [disfmarker] this is a bit larger than it would be, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's cool. I'm impressed. [speaker003:] Don't have no one to handle that. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm that's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And hold it so [vocalsound] [disfmarker] wh what's the marketing perspective? [speaker004:] oh that's [disfmarker] oh I like it. I mean you guys gave me more than I was asking for, so I'm happy because we've got some really marketable features in this. Yeah I think it's good. Good good good job. [speaker002:] Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability. [speaker003:] Yeah. So you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where's my remote. [speaker002:] Beep beep beep. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh pla [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] The locator function. [speaker004:] I'm ha [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] It's great. That's great. It's a great feature. [speaker002:] Um beep beep beep [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm it's impressing. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Wicked isn't it? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So let me get it, [speaker002:] so [vocalsound] [speaker001:] if I press this button [disfmarker] [speaker002:] beep beep beep [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I see. That's pretty cool. Hang on. [speaker002:] beep beep beep [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] be shut up. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he'll be across town [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Beep beep beep [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] I plan to do that as well. [speaker002:] okay. Um no no no tha that's alri [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So the the two blue [disfmarker] are are those for the the it to charge off of [disfmarker] in? [speaker002:] Exactly that's exactly what those are for. [speaker001:] Ah okay okay. [speaker002:] And um there's one other feature that we were debating, but we decided to go against it, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] is um [disfmarker] you could beep beep beep [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah [vocalsound] it's the right shape isn't it? [speaker002:] it it's it kinda feels like there should be something there, but we couldn't figure out what button is important enough to put there. And we we don't wanna accidentally be hitting the power button like that so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling, [speaker002:] Mm. Right. [speaker001:] 'cause then it would need to be hit on both sides [gap]. [speaker002:] So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Uh, I can see that. [speaker001:] But it's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that, [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] hasn't it? [speaker004:] Yep I like. Good job. [speaker001:] So is that the the final colour scheme as well or? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] No no. [speaker002:] Oh no this is [vocalsound] just what we had to work with at the time. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So we'll leave the colour scheme up to the marketing people. [speaker001:] The [disfmarker] hmm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Careful. [speaker001:] It came off. The scroll wheels, [gap] a problem with them not being sort of [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Well I mean of course, I mean [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I don't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] My my s my suggestion is we're gonna go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] You know some blend of silvers and blacks. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Beep beep beep. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay enough of that. Well i it's cool guys. 'Kay so are we done with the this presentation? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Ja. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Now now. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So you're not gonna find my uh my folder up there I gotta do mine up at the board. [speaker001:] Have you? Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. So [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now? [speaker004:] No it's not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I couldn't create it. [speaker001:] Oh I see I see. [speaker004:] I couldn't create it in the PowerPoint, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and I think I've got this really strange cable. So what I had, basically going from the PowerPoint format, is that uh yeah yeah I like this a lot. Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Nah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So what we had is we had the method. That's not how you spell method, is it? [speaker002:] No way. [speaker004:] No A [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap]. [vocalsound] So this doesn't go so fast this way. And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh. And uh to me with this product we got uh [disfmarker] we got [vocalsound] basically three things to market. We've got the features, we have the uh characteristics, and we have the [vocalsound] I I don't know what we would call the other part [disfmarker] what we call you know the the [vocalsound] the corp corporate [disfmarker] Help me. The the corporation stands behind the product, okay. So the features I think [vocalsound] we got the scroll, we've got the uh the locator, we've got the durability, we've got the dependability, [speaker003:] It fell off. [speaker004:] we've got you know the features that make this a unique product. Um [speaker002:] Beep beep beep. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] the characteristics I talk about, we have reliability, we have comfort, we have ergonomics, we have environmentally s sensitive. Uh and the corporation, we're talking about [disfmarker] we're we're a new we're a new company. We're wanting to make a name for ourself. We're wanting you to uh find our product so we're gonna give you a good product at a fair price. One thing I would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on this product, a normal use guarantee, which means that this product, for the for the life of of [disfmarker] the life use, if it should have a technical problem, that we could re replace it at no cost? That was something I would be interested in. Um so [vocalsound] yeah without uh going into great details, we have a we have a product, it has the features and the characteristics, and the background, I believe, to make it marketable I believe at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros. We're gonna be competitive, and we're gonna we're gonna have a market niche. Um w [speaker001:] Do you [disfmarker] would you a argue that that we're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could, but lowering our profit margins? [speaker004:] That that would be uh that would be I think a decision best made by corporate um I I m for my evaluation, based on what our competition is, I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Mm 'kay. [speaker004:] But I'm sh I'm sure open to to market this in either direction. But you guys came up with a great product, and at that cost I think it uh [disfmarker] there's nobody else that's putting this this combination of of ingredients together. The only limitations I see to this is that we're focused on television only. Uh that's the only that's the only drawback I see to this. But with all of these other features I think people c [vocalsound] one thing I'm I'm hoping for is people are not gonna even notice. There's gonna be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing doesn't work for my DVD and my [disfmarker] but I like these other things, so they keep it, they don't take it back. [speaker001:] And we're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway, aren't we? Th there's no fundamentally different technology to do that. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable? You know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] W we need we need we need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm, but you follow what I'm s I'm s [speaker003:] We we w yeah we could get another version of it that actually works. [speaker004:] Yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we're [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] But uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] yeah but then we talk about changing the warranty concept and everything, but that's that was just an idea I had. Uh to me the only additions [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, the plus there's the the risk of making it unusable as well, or making it less [disfmarker] b because at the moment it's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons, you know what they do, it's very simple, and it just works. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yep. [speaker001:] Mm there's a risk of that. [speaker004:] But anyway that's uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay so we can talk about finance now. So I have a little spreadsheet for us where [disfmarker] I I was wondering, you [disfmarker] when you talked about the fifteen point eight Euros, I was wondering how you came up with that figure? [speaker002:] Well, that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this. [speaker003:] Very co very colf colourful. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Now [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] I've made a f few assumptions here in that I'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Uh-huh. [speaker001:] equivalent to solar cells, which I think is probably fair considering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already. [speaker002:] Uh-huh. [speaker001:] Uh [vocalsound] and I'm assuming that the locator beacon, the you know the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] beep beep beep. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Can be made for [disfmarker] it sounded different that time [disfmarker] uh can be made for a similar price to uh an LC display, [speaker002:] Oh, sorry. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] uh an uh [gap] [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Uh do you think that's fair coming from a [disfmarker] m the manufacturing? [speaker002:] Yeah um I do think we that we we [vocalsound] uh don't need the events chip on print, we only need the uh the regular chip on print, [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker002:] so there may have been a m miscalculation in there. [speaker001:] Okay. Yep. Okay. So we're down to sixteen point four, yeah. [speaker002:] And we and we have a single-curved uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved? [speaker002:] Uh I think that [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] We've got a we've got a curve and a droop. [speaker001:] We're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-cur [speaker004:] I don't know whether that [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] It's single-curved, [speaker001:] You think? Okay [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker001:] I'm [gap] convinced. But we save one Euro that way, yeah? So we come [disfmarker] bring it down to [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Fifteen point four. [speaker002:] See it's a little bit more than f single-curved. So yeah it's fifteen point eight, that's where we came up with it [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well hang on. Do don't speak so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] it's in here, in that [vocalsound] w do we have any [disfmarker] we have special form don't we? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah we do. [speaker001:] So that's [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] Ah. What do you know [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] But the the the [disfmarker] we haven't talked about any special colour though uh I don't th [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Oh it's [vocalsound] a that's not very special, it's pretty [disfmarker] [speaker001:] if we're going for greys and silvers then I don't think we're [disfmarker] [vocalsound] O okay so we're [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] If th [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Push-button, scroll wheel, we're [disfmarker] basically we have uh th [speaker003:] We don't [disfmarker] [speaker001:] is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll? [speaker003:] It's a scroll. [speaker002:] That's a scroll. [speaker001:] Just a scroll? It's not one of the scrolls where, for example, with this one you could push it down to be a button? [speaker002:] Uh no we just use it as a scroll. [speaker004:] Ooh. [speaker001:] Okay then we have fifteen point eight Euros. [speaker002:] It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It wasn't bad. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] We're wicked. Awesome. [speaker001:] Okay so we're on to the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] S 's kind of s frighteningly accurate [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation, where we have a look at the criterias th that Paul [vocalsound] the criterion criteria that Paul has has given us [vocalsound], and we can use that to tell [disfmarker] How's it going? [vocalsound] Anyone got any thoughts? [speaker002:] What? [speaker001:] How how have we done today? [speaker002:] I think we did pretty well. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think we did pretty well too. That looks pretty spectacular. [speaker004:] No, I think we come up with a with a attractive marketable um product and and concept. [speaker001:] Any other chang uh thoughts? Okay so th th what about um room for creativity? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That was mm-hmm [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Is it the [gap]. [speaker002:] Sh I think there was plenty of room. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I [vocalsound] I think we we ended up being quite creative there. [speaker002:] We got a couple innovative i [speaker004:] Yeah well we we we kinda broke [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Couple innovative ideas. [speaker004:] we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they gave us because we d we still have the the teletext capability in this thing right, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] we raised the price of it, we've added two t new technology to it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So you know you know if this thing flies then we've we've adjusted or broken every every idea they gave us. [speaker001:] Not every idea necessarily, [speaker003:] Basically. [speaker001:] it's still a remote control [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [speaker001:] Uh no [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] yeah but [disfmarker] we did we did break with the specs a little bit I guess, but the uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But I like [disfmarker] I mean when I say we have we had [disfmarker] I believe we have room for creativity 'cause w this is [disfmarker] we did it. [speaker001:] 'Kay leadership, what do we report back to the bosses? No th th I think they were r reasonably flexible with us over the whole changing the specs thing. [speaker003:] It was more of a teamwork thing then really leadership based project was [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] I agree. [speaker003:] Teamwork. [speaker004:] Cohesive yeah. [speaker001:] Synergy. [speaker004:] Yes synergistic yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] There was a lot of synergy. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Teamwork, yeah he is uh. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What did we think of the meeting room, I guess is an important thing here. [speaker002:] These cables suck [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah, this falls off [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and uh the white board worked really well without any pro [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] And that's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] D you must have very long shirts. That's way far down lapel mic. [speaker001:] Mm-mm, lapel. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Lapel lapel lapel [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Wha okay, oh, alright [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] Lapel. [speaker003:] That's almost a crotch [vocalsound] mi cr [vocalsound] [speaker001:] That's it's down, it's quite close. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] You know you know what they're gonna have on the recording in there from that microphone is your lunch digesting you know th [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Keep it, keep it calm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Oh dear oh dear [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh dear [vocalsound]. No more pizza for me [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So yeah the the pen came in alright and it's a little uncomfortable to use but I guess it works. [speaker003:] 'Cause this is [disfmarker] you were using it o upside down. Still that [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] That's our boss [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Nah, I'm I'm not convinced of that at all. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I've been wor I've been wondering about that all day, but see these look like they're [disfmarker] that looks the oth that looks like it would be that way around, [speaker003:] Use them like that. [speaker002:] Pedro's right. [speaker001:] but it feels more comfortable, wh what you call upside-down. [speaker002:] Pedro's right. [speaker001:] I don't care. Uh okay so that data might be slightly invalid. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] What new ideas have we found? [speaker002:] Oh wel [speaker004:] New ideas f uh for the product or for the the the the environment or [disfmarker] what are we ta [speaker001:] Well let's do both then. Uh for the product? [speaker002:] Well we had the favourites list, and the scroll bar, and we have the cradle, and the r uh remote call feature. [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker001:] Yeah we came up with quite a bit. [speaker003:] Bunch of new ideas. [speaker001:] And for the meeting room, Has anyone got any more [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah comfortable headsets would be nice. [speaker001:] Yeah less sore on the ears. [speaker004:] Well I I mean [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] clearly remote control microphones would be the would be a nice solution to all these cables, but I'm sure that there's there's some justification for these things that I don't know about. And of course I did not have so much fun with my computer this afternoon. It's not been uh it's not been cooperating so well, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] but [vocalsound] I don't think that's the that's avoidable. [speaker003:] Coulda been worse. [speaker001:] Okay [vocalsound] so [disfmarker] Are the costs within the budget? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Mm n [vocalsound] no. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] Nope. Oh hang on it really [disfmarker] that's something we [disfmarker] that the costs were under twelve fifty Euros. No requirements are changed. We're still under twenty Euros to build, so we're good. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] And the costs within the budget? Not the original budget, but they are now. Is the project evaluated? Mm I think so yeah, then celebration as it says. [speaker003:] Hooray. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] Free coke provided at the cafeteria. [speaker002:] All right. [speaker001:] Oh I don't know how that got there. Uh anyway. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Who wrote that one? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Thank [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So we need to close this meeting, [speaker001:] Thanks guys. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] yeah bravo. Congratulations. [speaker003:] Cool. [speaker002:] Good job guys. [speaker004:] S I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on so let's close this and come back and [disfmarker] 'kay. [speaker001:] Yeah, I've got a lot of paperwork to catch up on too. Oh.

[speaker003:] All hooked up. [vocalsound] Okay, so now we are here at the functional design meeting. Um [vocalsound] hopefully this meeting I'll be doing a little bit less talking than I did last time 'cause this is when you get to show us what you've been doing individually. The agenda for the meeting, I put it in the sh shared documents folder. I don't know if that meant that you could see it or not. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Did anyone? [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] No. Oh well. Um I'll try and do that for the next meeting as well so if you check in there, there's a shared project documents folder. Um and it should be in there. [speaker004:] Mm. Um um wi on on a what? Oh project project documents, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. [speaker003:] Project documents, yeah. So I'll put it in there. [speaker004:] Oh okay, yeah. [speaker003:] Is it best if I send you an email maybe, to let you know it's there? [speaker004:] Yes, I think so. [speaker003:] Yep. I'll do that next time. Um [vocalsound] I'll act as secretary for this meeting and just take minutes as we go through, and then I'll send them to you after the meeting. The main the main focus of this meeting is your presentations that you've been preparing during the time, so we'll go through each of you one by one. Um then we need to briefly discuss the new project requirements that were sent to us. I just sent [speaker004:] Yeah, the last minute, yeah, [speaker003:] at the last minute, [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker003:] I'm sorry about that, but we can see how that affects what you were you were doing. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Um and then we need to, by the end of the meeting come to some kind of decision on who our target group's going to be and what the functions of the remote control [disfmarker] that's the the main goal is to come up with those two things, target group and functions of the remote control. And we've got forty minutes to do that in. So I would say [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You said uh targ target groups, [speaker003:] yeah? [speaker001:] what does that mean? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] As uh who it is that we're going to be trying to sell this thing to, [speaker001:] Uh okay, 'kay. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker001:] So are [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So we need to [disfmarker] yeah, we need to have a fairly defined group that that we want to focus on [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] and then look at the functions um of the dem remote control itself. So with that I think it's best if I hand over to you. Does anyone have a preference for going first? [speaker001:] Alright. [vocalsound] I can go first, [speaker003:] You wanna go first? [speaker004:] Okay. Hmm. [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker003:] Okay, so we need to unplug my laptop and plug in yours. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I assume we just pull it out? [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Right. Um [vocalsound] so f from the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Just before you start, to make it easier, would you three mind emailing me your presentations? Once we [disfmarker] you don't have to do it now but when [disfmarker] once you go back, [speaker004:] Okay, yeah, afterwards, yeah, okay. [speaker001:] Right sure. [speaker003:] just so that I don't have to scribble everything down. [speaker001:] Uh okay. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] So n uh with uh with regard to the [vocalsound] uh working design of this uh uh remote control uh I've identified um [vocalsound] a few basic uh components of the remote and uh [vocalsound] se uh from the design, functional design perspective um w I c we can now uh know wha what exactly the components are and how how they work together with each other. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] So [vocalsound] [vocalsound] this is the method that uh I'll mostly be following in my um [vocalsound] in my uh role. Um the identification of the components, uh and uh since since I'm dealing only with the technical aspects, I would need feedback from the marketing person uh and [vocalsound] uh from the user interface person. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Uh we'll then integrate this into the product design at a technical level and uh basically update and come up with a new design, so it's a cyclical process. [vocalsound] Okay, so [vocalsound] these were the basic findings from today. The last three bullets have been integrated from uh the last minute uh email. Uh I just quickly jotted them down. Um [vocalsound] so basically uh the [disfmarker] as I told you the identification of how the remote control works and what are the various parts to it uh and what are the different processes um [vocalsound] and how the parts uh communicate with each other. Um [vocalsound] okay, so e the mee email said that teletext is now outdated, so we need to do away with that functionality of the remote control. Um also uh the remote control should be used only for television, because incorporating other features um makes it more comp complex. And the reason why teletext is outdated because uh of internet and uh the availability of internet over television. How however, our our remote control would only be dealing uh with the [vocalsound] the use for television, [vocalsound] in order to keep things simple. Um [vocalsound] also the management wants that um our design should be unique uh it [disfmarker] so [vocalsound] it should incorporate um colour and the slogan uh that our company um has it as its standard. [vocalsound] Okay, so he he here is a functional overview of the remote control. Um [vocalsound] there's basically an energy source at the heart uh which feeds into the chip and the user interface. The user interf interface communicates with the chip, so [vocalsound] I'll basic go over to the [disfmarker] Okay. [vocalsound] So [vocalsound] if uh if this is our energy source and this is a cell, uh it communicates [disfmarker] uh it feeds energy into the into the chip, which basically finds out h uh how how to do everything. There is a user interface here. [vocalsound] So whe when the user presses a button, it feeds into the chip and the chip then generates a response and takes the response to an infrared terminal, um which then [disfmarker] so the output of the chip is an infrared bit code, which is then communicated [vocalsound] to the remote site, which h has an infrared receiver. Um the there can be uh a bulb here or something to indicate whether the remote is on or communicating. Um so these are the essent so a all the functionality of the remote control, whatever new functions that we need to do, um make the chip more complicated uh and bigger, basically. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] Um so [vocalsound] i in my personal preferences um [vocalsound] I'm hoping that we can ke keep the design as simple and clear as possible. This would uh help us uh to upgrade our technology at a future point of time. And uh also if we can incorporate uh the latest features in our chip design, so that our um [vocalsound] uh remote control does not become outdated soon and it's compatible with mot most uh televisions. [vocalsound] That's about it. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Thanks. [speaker001:] So anything that you would like to know or [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. Do you have any um i idea about costs at this point? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] No, I don't have any idea about what each component costs. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Br [speaker001:] Um yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. 'Cause that's something to consider, I guess, if we're if we're using more advanced technology, it might increase the price. [speaker001:] Yeah. Certainly, yeah. So so tha yeah, [vocalsound] we definitely need to operate within our constraints, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] but um [vocalsound] unfortunately I I do not have any data, so uh I just identified the functional components for that. [speaker003:] That's fine. Are there any more questions, or shall we just skip straight to the next one and then we can discuss all of them together at the end? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I think we need like some general discussion at the end probably. [speaker003:] Yeah, I think that will do. [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay, so do you want to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, I think since since we were discussing some um design issues then I I I would like to continue [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yes, shall shall we pull this up? [speaker004:] okay, yeah. [speaker003:] I think that has to come out of there. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm 'kay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Thanks. [speaker003:] Yeah, I thought those last minute things, they're gonna hit you the worst. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh i [vocalsound] Okay, I hope [disfmarker] wait. Should it just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I it'll take some time. [speaker003:] It ta takes a little [disfmarker] [speaker004:] There's just nothing. [speaker003:] Oh, and have you [disfmarker] you need to then also press on yours, function F eight, [speaker004:] Oh right, right, right, um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] so the blue function key at the bottom and F eight. [speaker004:] Okay. Nothin okay, something is coming up. [speaker001:] Oh, there it is, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Now it's coming, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It'll come up, it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] computer no signal. [speaker001:] um uh no signal. [speaker004:] No signal? Why? [speaker003:] Maybe again? [speaker001:] Yeah yeah, it says something now, [speaker004:] Oh. My my computer went blank now. [speaker001:] adjusting [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, adjusting. [speaker004:] Adjusting. But [vocalsound] I don't see anything [speaker003:] There we go, there we go. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] I don't see anything on my computer now. This is the problem, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh, that's strange. [speaker003:] Oh, if you press if you press function and that again there's there's usually three modes, one where it's only here, one where it's only there, and one where it's both. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Um [gap]. [speaker001:] And one more time. [speaker003:] Okay, so one more time. [speaker004:] Uh now it's [disfmarker] okay. No? No. [speaker003:] Should [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] yeah just wait for a moment, adjusting. [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay, that's fine, that's good. Okay, let's start from the beginning. So I'm going to speak about technical functions design uh just like some [vocalsound] some first issues that came up. Um 'kay, so the method I was um adopting at this point, it's not um for the for the whole um period of the um [vocalsound] all the project but it's just at th at this very moment. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Um uh my method was um to look at um other [vocalsound] um remote controls, uh so mostly just by searching on the web and to see what um functionality they used. And then um after having got this inspiration and having compared what I found on the web um just to think about what the de what the user really needs and what um what the user might desire as additional uh functionalities. [vocalsound] And yeah, and then just to um [vocalsound] put the main function of the remote control in in words. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Um so the findings uh were [vocalsound] um that the main function of the remote control is is just sending messages to the television set, so this quite straightforward. And uh w some of the main functions would be switching on, switching off, uh then the user would like to switch the channel um for example just m changing to the next channel to to flip through all all of the possible channels, or then mm [vocalsound] uh the other possibility would be that um she might just want to choose one particular channel, so we would need the numbers. And and also the volume is very important. Um [vocalsound] um [vocalsound] I als [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Sorry, cou could you go back for a second? [speaker004:] okay. [speaker001:] Uh switching on off channel, uh volume, [vocalsound] okay, that's great. [speaker004:] 'Kay. Um um among the findings I found that m m most of the curr mm presently available remote controls also include other mm [vocalsound] functionalities um in their design, like operating a VCR, but they don't seem to be able to deal with DVD players, but then [vocalsound] there are [disfmarker] surely there are many other functionali functions that could possibly be added to them, but according to the last minute update um actually um we do not want to have all this complicated functions added to our design. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So my personal preferences would be uh to keep the mm the whole remote control small um just like the physical size. And then it must be easy to use, so it must follow some conventions um like whereabouts you find the on off button and maybe the colour tends to be red or something. Um then [disfmarker] [vocalsound] yeah, the must-have buttons would be on off and then [vocalsound] the channel numbers and then um [vocalsound] the one that allows us to go to the next or the previous channel, and then volume has to be there. But then um other functionalities um [vocalsound] could be just [disfmarker] uh there could be a menu button and you could change things on the screen then, um for example brightness and mm similar functions could be just um [vocalsound] done through the menu. And yeah, the last question I had about whether we wanted to incorporate n uh more functionalities, the answer was already no because of the last minute update. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So at the [disfmarker] for the time being that's uh that's all. If you have questions [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. If [disfmarker] I mean that was the the directive that came through from management, but if we had a a decent case for [disfmarker] that we really think it's important to include video and DVD, I could get back to them and see. It's w it's just whether it's worth arguing about. [speaker004:] Yeah, and also it's it's um [disfmarker] other question is uh because there are so many different [disfmarker] And there are so many different things that could possibly be included [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] because besides video and DVD there are the mm um video CDs and whatever, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] so it might be problematic to to choose between all these possible things. [speaker003:] Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Are there any questions for clarification of Maarika before we go on to the next one? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So in the u user interface requirements uh uh uh we we have been able to identify what are the basic buttons that we do want. Um but um [vocalsound] so so at this stage, uh how we go about implementing those button we will not identify or [disfmarker] I mean in [disfmarker] we can completely do away with buttons and uh have some kind of a fancy user interface or something like that. But uh is is there any uh uh any thoughts on that? [speaker004:] Um well, I think the buttons are still mm kind of the most um easy for the user to use, I mean um what other options would you have? [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] A little screen or something, but this would be really kind of I think a lot of learning for the user [speaker001:] Yeah, and it'll make the costs [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker004:] and and I mean the user just wants to get um get a result um quickly, not to spend time in like um giving several orders um I dunno. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] I think I th I would I would think the put the buttons, but if if you have other mm proposals um. [speaker001:] Uh I think the co costs will also play a big role when we come to know about them. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] So well we can probably wait until t we have more knowledge on that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Uh i if the if the costs allow, we can have like an LCD display and uh with um [disfmarker] because we do want something fancy and fashionable as well. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So yeah? Cool. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker003:] Sure, we can discuss that maybe after the next one. [speaker002:] Cool. [speaker003:] Do you want to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Do you wanna give me the little cable thing? [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker004:] Uh am I going in the right direction? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] No. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Wait. Okay, here it comes. [speaker003:] Oh, I'm getting hungry. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay, here you are. [speaker002:] Cool. Ah, that's why it won't meet. [vocalsound] Okay, cool. [speaker003:] You set? [speaker002:] Yep, cool. Okay, functional requirements. [speaker003:] Uh we need to do the function key thing so that it comes up on here. [speaker002:] Alright, yeah. [speaker003:] Hello. [speaker001:] [gap] try to press [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Is it plugged in prop [speaker002:] It's working. [speaker001:] oh, okay, [speaker003:] it's working? Okay. [speaker001:] yep. [speaker003:] Excellent. [speaker002:] Cool, okay. So what I have, wh where I've got my information from is a survey where the usability lab um observed remote control use with um a hundred subjects and then they gave them a questionnaire. Um so it was all about, you know, how people feel about the look and feel of the remote control, you know. What's the most annoying things about remote controls and um the possibility of speech recognition and LCD screens in remote control. Not that they actually gave me any answers on the LCD screens, so I should have taken that bit out, but anyway. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Um okay, so. What they found is that people don't like how current remote controls are, so you know, definitely you should be looking at something quite different. Um seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly. [vocalsound] Uh the other twenty five percent have no fashion sense. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh eighty percent of users would spend more to get um you know, a nice looking remote control. Um current remote controls, they don't match the user behaviour well, as you'll see on the next slide. Um I dunno what zapping is, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's um switching between channels, sort of randomly going through. [speaker002:] Oh, right. But you have that little thing that comes up at the bottom and tells you what's on. Um okay, fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] so that's going back to what, you know, we were saying earlier about, you know, do you need all the buttons on the remote control, [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] they just make it look ugly. Okay? Cool. Um so this is my little graph thing. [speaker003:] Ooh, that's a bit difficult to see. [speaker002:] Mm k [speaker003:] If you explain it to us it'll be fine. [speaker002:] Okay, well, I can send it to all of you. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] What it is is um it's cones, 'cause I thought they'd be more exciting. Um but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I liked the, I liked the litt [speaker002:] ooh where's it go? [speaker003:] ooh come back. [speaker002:] Back. Oh. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Oh yes, cool. Okay, I'm gonna stop playing with the little pointy thing. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Um okay, so like what it shows is how much things are used relatively and what you can clearly see from that is the thing that's used most is the channel selection. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] What you can't see is volume selection, it's a little bit higher than all the others. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm, that's the next one along, yeah? [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, so what the graph shows is that, you know, power, channel selection and volume selection are important, and the rest of them, you know, nobody really uses [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] and so that's the the numbers along the top represent their like um their importance, you know, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] so on a scale of one to ten, how important is that and, you know, channel selection and volume selection are absolutely essential, and the power, well it's not quite so essential, apparently, although I don't understand how it couldn't be, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] um and everything else, I think, you know, you can forget about having those buttons on the remote control, 'cause they're just not needed, and they're not used. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Okay. This is the bit that the email messed up for me and that's what I was fiddling about with at the beginning of the thing. [vocalsound] Okay, cool. So um okay, so this is what people find annoying about remote controls. Uh that they get lost, that the uh you know, they're not intuitive and that they're bad for repetitive strain injury. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] I think if you're watching enough TV to get repetitive strain injury from um you know, watching TV, then [vocalsound] that's the least of your problems, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] The remote control. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but you know, [vocalsound] it's up there. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Um that [disfmarker] yeah. Okay, so um I mean the the RSI thing would be that, like when you have the computer keyboards and you keep your wrists up would be something that encourages [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] you want something with an ergonomic t design that encourages good use of the remote control and you know, not straining your wrists watching TV [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yes. Okay, cool. Right, um [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] sorry this is pink because I was copying and pasting the table, and I didn't have time to white it out again. [speaker003:] That's alright. [speaker002:] Um okay, but that shows how people [disfmarker] whether they would pay more for voice recognition software. So you can see from that that, you know, younger people to the age of thirty five are quite likely to pay quite a lot more f well quite [disfmarker] are quite likely to pay more for voice recognition software, whereas as people get older, they're a bit more sceptical about it and they're less willing to to try it. Um so clearly voice recognition is something to think about, but um you know I d I do wonder how well that would work given that a TV, you know, tends to be people talking [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] and um, you know, how are you going to stop it from just flipping channels whilst watching TV. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Um okay? Cool. Um okay, so these are my personal preferences. [vocalsound] So you have sleek, stylish, sophisticated, you know, so something that's, you know, a bit cool. Um you know, functional, so it's useful, but minimalist. Um there's a there's an important thing that, you know, people use when, you know, when you're filling up your home, you know, a lot of people fill up their home with bits of crap, basically, you know, and you've got all this stuff, and you're just like, what the hell is that, who is ever gonna use it? You know, so things should either be functional or beautiful or preferably both, so I think we need to aim for both. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [speaker002:] Um okay, then a long battery life, like you were talking about earlier and um, you know, I was thinking that solar power would be quite cool because, you know, your remote control just sits there, and you could just sit it in the sunshine and save the environment a bit. Um and then like a locator, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] so you know, kind of like you have for a mobile phone or [disfmarker] not a mobile phone [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. Some kind of a ring, [speaker003:] Keys and things like that, [speaker001:] some [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, that's it, you know. [speaker003:] yeah. Whistle and it [vocalsound] screams at you, yeah. [speaker002:] I know, it's weird. My flatmate and I were talking about this on the way into uni this morning and I was like I need to get one for everything. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So yeah, so maybe something where you clap and then it beeps, something [vocalsound] [disfmarker] a kind of sound that you don't often hear on the TV, you know, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] 'cause you don't want your remote control beeping every five minutes, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] 'cause you you'd then deliberately lose it by throwing it out the window or something. So okay? [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Cool. That's me. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That's you, excellent. [speaker001:] Okay, that's great, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Um that's very good, [speaker001:] thanks. [speaker004:] very interesting. [speaker003:] Um. I'm just gonna tick yes. So, we've got about ten, fifteen minutes to discuss [speaker001:] Mm. [vocalsound] I think one of the very interesting things that came up in um [vocalsound] uh Ka Kate Cat Cat's uh presentation was um [vocalsound] uh this this issue of uh uh like voice recognition being more popular with uh younger people. [speaker002:] Cat's. Ca [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] So if we need to have a target group um then uh [vocalsound] I think as far as the m motto of our company is concerned, if we want to have something sleek and uh you know, good looking uh we are better off targeting a younger audience then um you know, people who are comparatively elderly. Um. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah, I mean that's the thing is that it didn't say in the survey, you know, whether, you know, these are the people that will pay more for a more stylish remote control, [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] but I'm assuming, you know, yes. [speaker001:] Right. Bu but but the survey did say that f things like voice recognition are more popular with them, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] so if you want to put in something stylish, then uh th it'll certainly be more popular with this i ye with the younger people as compared to older people, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Yeah. [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker003:] Then again I guess the th where it was most popular was the fifteen to twenty five bracket [speaker001:] Right, [speaker003:] and the [disfmarker] I don't know how often they're buying televisions. [speaker001:] and [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Right. [speaker002:] Well, that's when you go to uni, isn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So, you know [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, but you don't have much money, generally. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah, [speaker003:] I would've thought it's it's more that twenty five to thirty five, when people are really moving out and they've got their first job and they want their nice toys and [disfmarker] [speaker004:] you share a television or something that [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But uh still, if if you can go back to that slide and uh, how popular was it? [speaker003:] O oh it's on [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Oh, I've unplugged it. [speaker003:] sorry, we unplugged it. [speaker002:] Do you want me to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh, oh, okay. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Here, let me [disfmarker] [speaker001:] That's alright, if you can just look it up on your computer, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] wh uh um people between twenty five to thirty five, uh how popular was [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Seventy six point three percent. [speaker004:] It was seventy something, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] so it was sti still still quite popular amongst them. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So even they are seventy six percent, is that high amount? [speaker002:] Yeah, I kn I mean I know what you're saying about the fifteen to twenty five year olds, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but I mean it has been proven that that people of that age group have a higher disposable income because they don't have like [disfmarker] I mean, you know, if you're at university, you're paying your rent, [speaker003:] Yeah, they've got no commitments and [speaker002:] but you don't have a mortgage, you don't have a life insurance policy, [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker003:] usually not a car and all of those things. [speaker002:] you don't normally have a car, yeah, so. [speaker003:] Kids. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You're still learning to drive actually, [speaker001:] So you're more likely to b [speaker002:] so that just costs more than a car, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] but yeah. Um so I mean like it is an age group to target, really, I think. [speaker003:] Yeah, and if we're if we're talking twenty five Euros as a price, that's not unaffordable, even for young people. [speaker002:] No, I mean that's what, that's like fifteen Pounds? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You know, I think [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah this this is not [vocalsound] unaffordable, [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] but the problem is whether people need it, whether they do have a TV [vocalsound] to use its full [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I d I don't know many people without a TV. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But do they [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We didn't have a TV last year, and everyone thought we were off our heads, you know. [speaker003:] But the TVs are often kind of someone's old TV that's blah blah [speaker004:] Common, the students [disfmarker] yeah, yeah. The s the stu [speaker003:] and be a bit strange to have a fancy [vocalsound] rome remote. [speaker004:] yeah, and the remote control might not [disfmarker] yeah, it might not even function with the old TV. [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Bu but even even in the case of twenty five to thirty five it's quite popular, right? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, I d well we've we've got quite a d decent TV. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah, we're still [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker001:] So mm uh are are are [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Or w maybe we can just kind of uh uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. I think I think the fact that, you know, ninety one point two percent of fifteen to twenty five year olds are saying yes, I would pay more for a voice recognition remote control, does say quite a lot really. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] You know, so I mean that and the disposable income and [disfmarker] I don't think it's something to ignore, you know. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, but at the same time I think maybe we can we can just decide to to have both of these groups as our target, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] because actually I mean they're all still re young people. [speaker002:] Is not a massive difference, you know. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, if we ta if we take fifteen to thirty five, [speaker002:] No, do totally. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] but that then does imply that we should try and incorporate voice recognition. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is that gonna have a [disfmarker] an implication for the technical specs? [speaker001:] Um [vocalsound] I was having a a general outlook on um m most like sophisticated features, but voice recognition itself I'm not very sure about, because one of the p uh things that Cat pointed out was uh uh how do we go about implementing it? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Uh and uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] You do have it in your mobile phone though, don't you? Because you have like [disfmarker] I mean every mobile phone now has like call this person and it calls them. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. But how frequently do we use it anyway [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and um uh h ho how good is it, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you know uh voice recognition softwares are still quite uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker003:] Yeah. With um [disfmarker] but with a TV remote it's gonna be quite limited if we're t saying the main things people want to do is on off channel five, [speaker004:] An [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] louder, [speaker002:] S so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] tha that should be relatively simple. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [speaker002:] y you'd maybe need a code word. [speaker001:] O [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Do you know what I mean? [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] So like when you say change, except that's [vocalsound] being said quite a lot on TV, so maybe like, you know, remote. I mean how often do people say remote on TV? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Although I only watch Charmed, so really [vocalsound] I wouldn't know [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but like so you'd just say remote five, you know, remote ten, remote one two nine. [speaker001:] Right. Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Okay, so it seems like a feasible thing to implement uh for for a limited [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, but maybe if you wanna look into that just to just to check. [speaker001:] [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] Um, so if we go for the the fifteen to thirty five age group [speaker004:] Yeah but uh um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] and then of course we're going to get th anyone who's older than thirty five who wants to look young and hip and trendy and has the money, [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah sure, yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] then they'll they'll still go for the same advertising. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I don't think there's a lot of uh voice recognition remote controls. [speaker004:] Yeah, w well now the v the voice recognition if if it works wonderfully w we could possibly do away with all buttons, but I think this is not really the right moment yet, because people are just so used to buttons and um, yeah it's it's kind of safer, so we we need both, [speaker003:] Yeah, I think we need both. [speaker001:] Mm. W What uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] so the voice recognition would be just an extra, it wouldn't really reduce the size of the remote. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] What wh uh [vocalsound] what I was thinking is that there is this uh separation between what the channels are on TV and how they are numbered on the remote control. If we can do with [disfmarker] away with that, our product can be really popular uh in the sense that uh a person can say, I want to watch uh ITV one instead of saying that I want to go onto channel number forty five. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. Uh-huh. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Yeah, so if uh if something like that can be incorporated, [vocalsound] [speaker002:] that would be another way to do it. [speaker003:] So that if that was in the the voice recognition, that would be great. [speaker001:] some kind of [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, but then the code word would be even more important, because [disfmarker] I mean Sky advertise on every channel, don't they, you know, [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] so then it would be [disfmarker] you'd be watching Charmed, and then the Sky advert would come on and it would change to Sky. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Watch Sky and [vocalsound] yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker002:] and that would be really annoying. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, that's [disfmarker] Right. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. But that's definitely a possibility. [speaker004:] Yeah but m but on the other hand, remote control isn't [vocalsound] as close to you you probably might just just uh speak into it [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] and and the TV would be already further away, so it might not pick up the other things coming from there. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. Do you not think that defeats the object of having voice recognition on a remote control though? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So that you can yell at it, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, you know, so you have to have the remote control. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker002:] It's more like if you lost it and it's down the sofa sometime, you can yell at it [vocalsound] and it'll just change it, you can look for it later, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Alright. [speaker004:] Yeah, but then the remote control I think [disfmarker] I mean [vocalsound] um the idea is kind of [disfmarker] it's it's not that it's sitting there on on top of the television, because then you could already yell at the television and you wouldn't you you wouldn't need the remote control, so the remote control is still something you keep n near yourself. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, I suppose nearer to you but a b like if you have surround sound then [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] yeah and it might become very difficult from a distance for the television to understand what you're saying because of the noise factor for the remote control [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] being cl I mean it'll it'll [disfmarker] mm. [speaker004:] No, but I I I was just defending the [vocalsound] the fact why why we want to keep the remote control close to us, a and uh not to yell at it from the distance. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So uh [vocalsound] wh another thing uh that can be used is that uh there can be a beeper button on the TV, so you can go and press that button and um and the remote control, wherever it is, it'll beep, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] so we we can probably come to know where it is. [speaker003:] That's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] but then if you're buying the remote separately, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but y [vocalsound] you could have something, but i if it was something that you could like stick onto the TV or something, [speaker004:] Oh yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker004:] Okay, yeah, mm-hmm. [speaker003:] some [disfmarker] like a two p if you bought it in a two part pack, so one part attaches to the TV. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah, 'cause it's it's quite important that you don't lose the the bit to locate the remote control. [speaker003:] The l Well that's right, [speaker001:] Alright, yeah. [speaker003:] but it solves the problem of having different noises. [speaker002:] Yeah, definitely, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. Okay, I think we're gonna have to wrap this up um. But if we go away with that that kind of general um [vocalsound] specification in mind that we're looking at fifteen to thirty five year olds, we want it to look simple, but still have the buttons so it's easy to use, but only those key buttons, the major buttons and then one sort of menu one, and then voice recognition included as an option [speaker004:] The major ones, yeah. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] um but that obviously needs a little bit more working out as to whether it's really feasible and some of those problems we were mentioning um. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] What we have to do now is to go back to our little places, complete our questionnaire and some sort of summarisation, which y you'll get immediately by email. Send me your presentations so that I can use them to make the minutes, and then we've got a lunch break [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] and after lunch we go back to our own little stations and have thirty minutes more work. Um I'll put the minutes in that project documents folder, but I'll send you an email when I do it, so that you know. [speaker001:] So where exactly is this i [speaker003:] It should be on your desktop, so on the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Ah, okay. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So I'll put it [disfmarker] I'll put them there as soon as I've written them. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Did you find it? It's just [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah in that one, [speaker004:] yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] right yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, and email them round. [speaker002:] Oh, so y you want our um PowerPoint presentations in there, hey? [speaker003:] Yeah, that would be great. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Oh so so we'll just put them i there, [speaker003:] Oh yeah, put them in there. Yeah, [speaker004:] we we [disfmarker] yeah, w we won't even [disfmarker] okay. [speaker002:] There you go. [speaker003:] then you don't have to email them. [speaker002:] But is everyone's called functional requirements? [speaker003:] No, [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] they're all called something slightly different. Technical requirements and something something, yeah. [speaker002:] Okay, so that's good. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] That's me done. [speaker003:] So, if you put them in there, we'll all be able to see them and refer to them if we need to. [speaker002:] Okay, cool. [speaker003:] Um [vocalsound] as to where we're going from here, you're going to look at the components concept. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Yeah? Whatever that means. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I guess I'll find out. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You'll be looking [vocalsound] you'll be looking at the user interface concept, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Uh something conceptual, yeah. [speaker003:] on something conceptual and you're watching trends to see how we go and surely voice recognition'll fall off the map or something that [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] um we'll keep keep our options op hmm? [speaker001:] Wha what was it again that I was supposed to look into? Con components, oh. [speaker003:] Components, [speaker004:] Hmm. [vocalsound] Sorry, but um the next meeting um are we going to have it um right after lunch [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker004:] or [vocalsound] shall we prepare our [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, we have we have [disfmarker] after lunch we have thirty minutes to ourselves to prepare, [speaker004:] To prepare, okay, yeah, that's good. [speaker003:] so that's fine, w before lunch we just have to complete the questionnaire and some sort of summary. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] Okay? Right on time. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Cool. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay, [vocalsound] so you can [disfmarker] I guess we'll see you for lunch in a sec? [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay, see you.

[speaker001:] Okay. So, now um, [vocalsound] last time. Can you uh [vocalsound] push the button? [vocalsound] One time please. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] I'm still the secretary. Now uh, I ask you to presentate the prototype. One of your [disfmarker] you two. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I don't care. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh this, you mean? [speaker003:] Huh? [speaker001:] Yes. The prototype. [speaker002:] Yes, well uh this is it. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] This is it. [speaker001:] Well, thank you. Uh, now [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's uh it's uh it's yellow. And uh, this is rubber. And and and this too. The [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] the sides. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] And the rest is hard plastic. And uh [disfmarker] We uh we had some uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] We had a new idea [vocalsound] that that this can uh can be uh uh turned inside. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] And then it covers the [disfmarker] these buttons [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] until here or something. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] And then you can still use the the power button and the mute and the the joystick. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So, you can still operate uh all the things. Because you don't always use the menu. And then it can break. [speaker001:] Okay. And the buttons? [speaker002:] Uh, well uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Big. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Big buttons. And everything is blue, except the power button. And the mute. Of uh [disfmarker] yeah, and the mute and the the other button. [vocalsound] Yeah. Channel higher channel button. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And the joystick is for the volume and the channels. [speaker002:] Uh, yes. Yes, [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] that's uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Very obvious. [speaker003:] Up is channel up. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Down is channel down. To the right is volume up. To the left is volume down. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, so if joystick and LCD. What's the RR [gap] d [vocalsound] [speaker003:] The RR? [speaker002:] RR's the l the the the the company uh logo. [speaker001:] Okay. Very good. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, we have [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's on the rub rubber part. [speaker002:] Uh, yes. Yes. That's about here. [speaker001:] So, what they say on the side is put fashion there. Yes. It's good. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] So, that's it. That's prototype. [speaker004:] Yeah? [speaker001:] Now, the finance. [vocalsound] We don't know if it's [disfmarker] th it [disfmarker] if it's okay. [speaker004:] Alright. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, I'm gonna look. [speaker004:] Do we [disfmarker] Do we change the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We have [disfmarker] Sorry? [speaker004:] Do we change the the order? Or are we going to uh ev evaluate it first? [speaker001:] Finance is um [disfmarker] Yeah it's [disfmarker] No, first uh [disfmarker] Yes. We have to evaluate the product yet. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Sorry. [speaker004:] That's uh um [disfmarker] [gap] That can be none. Um, we gonna do the evaluation now, together. But I have uh a introduction how it works. So, it will come up. Uh-oh. Okay. Um, yeah. Well, we uh [disfmarker] uh, I have um thinked a few evaluation uh criterias, uh based on um our marketing strategy, on uh the latest trends, on user preferences. Uh, we have a seven point scale from uh true, as well. To false, seven? And on base of each c uh criteria, we need to um give a rating. We can uh [disfmarker] Well, it look like this. But we gonna uh do it here, they said. [vocalsound] So, you hope found out how to do it with a Word document. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Um, well uh we have the Word document [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Criteria. [speaker004:] You [disfmarker] [gap] So we open up that blank here. Um [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Think I can [disfmarker] Uh, what this just an example. So, this not very important. But um, if I can get a number in here. Hmm. [speaker001:] No, it's okay. [speaker004:] Well, uh we can't do that. [speaker003:] I'll get it. [speaker001:] Oh, it's okay. [speaker004:] Um, so uh you have to think of it as uh the remote control is techno technologically innovative. Uh, and then we have to uh agree on the rating together. And in the end, we will c uh count an average of all rating. The first uh on each item. [speaker001:] What do you think? [speaker004:] Yeah, I think it's uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Uh, well technologically using, it's not uh [disfmarker] it doesn't contain many new features. Only the LCD. So, it [disfmarker] Um, I think I will give it a [disfmarker] yeah, yeah, yeah [gap], a four. Hmm. [speaker003:] I think the scroll-button is something also uh new. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] What uh [disfmarker] not anoth uh, not a lot of uh [disfmarker] a lot of uh remote controls have. I think technologically I'll give it an seven. Si six six. [speaker001:] [gap] Yeah. [speaker003:] Sorry, six. [speaker004:] So now i I think you uh see it [gap] um its statement. And you [gap] true or false. [speaker003:] Oh, true or false. Oh, uh I'll I'll give it uh a t a two. [speaker004:] And true is one. So, yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Two. [speaker003:] Sorry. [speaker001:] You? [speaker002:] Three. [speaker001:] Me too. So it's a three. [speaker004:] 'Kay. Um, well [disfmarker] It's a one. [vocalsound] The first item. So, okay the second item. Um, this product is for all sorts of customers. [speaker002:] Mm [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Well, it's a statement which uh I disagree with, because we uh really aim uh at at young market and I think the way it looked uh c uh totally in yellow, it's not uh really aimed for all customers. It doesn't look like that. [speaker001:] So it's a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's uh a six. [speaker003:] Five. [speaker002:] Mm, four. [speaker001:] Yes, it's for the younger g group. [speaker002:] Yeah, but it's it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So it's uh half half of the people. So I think it's four. [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean it still has l large buttons and not m many buttons. So [disfmarker] I mean, the colours are for young people, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] but [speaker001:] Yes. So, I think it's four. [speaker002:] older [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Maybe version uh three point O uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] has other colours. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Maybe. [speaker001:] Okay. Give it a four. [speaker003:] Four. [speaker004:] Four. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker004:] Uh, okay. Mm. [speaker001:] We put the fashion in electronics. [speaker004:] That's uh the motto of our company. Yeah, well do we do this with uh this product? I um [disfmarker] Yeah. I think if we do this, as it's uh uh c uh it's really orientates on the design. Um, so I would give it a two. [speaker003:] Me too a two, because only the battery is not uh techin uh technologically high standard. But the rest of it is. So, I think a two. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yes. Two. [speaker004:] Two. [speaker001:] Uh, I say uh a five. It's not fashion, it's new. It must be a fashion. But it isn't. [speaker003:] It [disfmarker] it will be fashion. [speaker001:] Yes. It w If it's not a fashion we can put it in it. So, it must be a fashion. I think it's a five. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker002:] Then make it th three. [speaker004:] Okay. Yes, I'll think of that too. [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] 'Kay. Three is okay. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker004:] Yeah, agree? [speaker001:] I use my feet though. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Oh, we'll wait outside. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] A three. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] The next element um is the product looks good. Well personally, I do not prefer a um remote control that's fully in yellow. So, I would give this a five. [speaker003:] I give it a one. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [gap]. Yes, a one. I like it. [speaker001:] Well, I say three. So, counting then is two and a half. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] We have to do our uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Say two. [speaker004:] Two or three? [speaker001:] Okay, two. [speaker003:] Two. [speaker004:] Two. Okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So, well we gonna do the next part. Uh, yep. Uh uh, the next statement. It has not too much buttons. Um, yeah, I I have uh said is not because uh a low number is better. And in the end we calculate an average. So, um that's why it's a negative in it. Um, well this one of our aims not have too much buttons. So, um uh did we uh do that? Well, uh if we go to [vocalsound] uh this fashion, I [disfmarker] We still have caused uh a lot of uh buttons for the numbers. But you can you can go for that. And um that way, you don't have a lot of buttons over. So, I would give this a two. [speaker003:] One. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] You? [speaker002:] One. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Me too. One. [speaker004:] One. [vocalsound] Um, but [vocalsound] where where is the [gap]? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Next, six. It does not get lost easily. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] Yeah, did we implement uh the sound? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Just a small thing. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No, we did not. [speaker002:] Yeah, but uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So, but can it get lost if it's such a thing? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Ah. Yellow. [speaker001:] I don't think so. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Looks like a pistol. [speaker001:] Yes. Not a not a normal shapes. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] It won't get between uh the pillows uh on the couch. [speaker001:] No. It won't get lost. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It won't. [speaker001:] A one? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah, o one. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, a one. [speaker004:] One. [speaker001:] Next. [speaker004:] Okay, um well we aimed for the younger market. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] Uh yeah, did we achieve that. I think with the way it looks and um it is designed, I will give it a two. [speaker001:] Yeah me [disfmarker] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah. Me too. [speaker001:] That was our target. Two. [speaker003:] Two. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. There's a fancy look-and-feel. [speaker004:] Uh, yes. That that was uh, yeah, one of the most important things that uh Trendwatch said. I didn't uh say it in my presentation. But um, well does it have that? I would say yes. So um [disfmarker] Well, let's also give this a two. T [speaker003:] I gave this a one because of the rubber. It feels soft. Uh, it looks like a l uh uh b uh, a bit like a joystick. It's [disfmarker] Yeah. Yeah, f very fancy [gap] trendy. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yes, a one. [speaker001:] I say a two. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It's a a bit personal. If it's fancy. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So I think s two is better. [speaker002:] Yeah, okay. [speaker004:] Okay. Two. [speaker003:] Two is okay. [speaker004:] And um, then the last one I could think of, [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] uh it goes with the latest trends. [speaker001:] No, it's new. Innovation. [speaker004:] If we looked at the latest trends for the uh younger people, and they ate uh fruit and vegetables, well it has a um a nice colour, uh well compared to food but we didn't uh [disfmarker] We did not paint any uh fruit and vegetable on it for something like that. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker004:] So, I would [disfmarker] did not give this uh a one or two. I [disfmarker] We'll go for a three. [speaker003:] I go for two because uh the the shapes are still round. [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker003:] Uh, the latest trends are soft things, you know, like uh I said in my presentation. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] But the the colours are um basic, like yellow, red, um blue. Something what also younger people want. It's also a trend, so I'll give it a two. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Mm, three. [speaker001:] Me too. Three. [speaker004:] A three. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. So um, come back to the presentation now. So, we find yourself there, and now we have to calculate an average rating. So, we will do that. [speaker001:] Effort is three, ten and twelve. Thirty, forty, fifty, [gap]. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] Twenty one. So, it's uh two and three nine two and one third. [speaker004:] By nine. [speaker003:] Two. [speaker004:] Yeah. Um, uh okay. [vocalsound] Two. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker004:] Come on. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh, nah. Okay. [speaker004:] So uh, that's a pretty low rating, I think. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yes. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, it's good. [speaker004:] So, according to our uh own evaluation uh we did a good job. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Thank you. [speaker003:] Yeah, I think [gap]. [speaker004:] Oh. Nah. How am I doing? Yes. And I closed your slide-show. [speaker001:] Okay. Back to my uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Which one was the last for you? Uh, dreaming. [speaker001:] Yep. Next please. [speaker004:] Next. Finance. [speaker001:] So, now uh we have a product. Very happy. But uh, is it cheap enough? Um, so if uh [disfmarker] I'll have a look. We have a battery. One battery. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Cheapest there is. [speaker001:] Okay, one battery. Electronics. Advanced chip. [speaker003:] Expensive. [speaker001:] Yeah it's the most advanced. Chip-on-print. We have that one. [speaker003:] Well, it's the most advanced. [speaker001:] We have the simple, regular and advanced. [speaker003:] Advanced. [speaker001:] We have the adva advanced. 'Kay, so uncurved or flat. Nope. Single curved or double curved? We have double curved. [gap] [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Then we have plastic, wood, rubber. [gap] we have half rubber, half plastic. [speaker002:] Mm, yes. [speaker001:] No titanium. Special colour. Yes, yellow. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Uh, yellow. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm, yeah. [speaker001:] Interface, push-button. Scroll-wheel, integrated scroll-wheel push push-button, or LCD display. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, we have the LCD We have two scroll-wheels? Or one? [speaker003:] One. [speaker004:] One. [speaker001:] And it's not really a s [speaker003:] Joystick uh thing. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's this one. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Now, uh button supplement. Special colour. We already [disfmarker] Uh, that's the [disfmarker] from the [disfmarker] for the buttons. The buttons are regular colour. [speaker002:] Mm, yeah. [speaker001:] So, then uh [disfmarker] then then then then then then [disfmarker] Then [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We're not gonna make it. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh, no. It's too expensive. [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Wh [speaker001:] So, we have to change something. [speaker003:] What what are the costs? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Fifteen Euros. [speaker003:] Fifteen. [speaker001:] Yeah, well uh when we lose one scroll-wheel, it's okay. 'Cause we can't lose the battery. We can't lose the advanced chip. We can't lose the double curve. We have rubber, special colour. [speaker004:] [gap]. We would have uh n [speaker003:] A special colour. Uh, I don't think it's a very special colour. [speaker001:] Oh, no, we [disfmarker] No, it's uh [disfmarker] Sorry? [speaker003:] Yellow? Uh, is it a special colour? [speaker004:] For a remote control. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] What? [speaker004:] I've [disfmarker] For a remote control, I think it is. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] If we would have uh uh normal buttons instead of uh the joystick. For up down left right. [speaker001:] Um, then we uh lose two Euros. Then we have thirteen Euros. Half a Euro too much. Exactly the special colours. [speaker003:] And what if we use only one sort of um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Um [vocalsound] just only plastic or only rubber? [speaker001:] That's one Euro. [speaker003:] One Euro discount. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, I don't think that's good. Mm [disfmarker] I think we have to keep the LCD. If [disfmarker] [speaker003:] If we change the joyst uh the joystick thing into a button up, button down, button right, button left. [speaker001:] Yes. Then it's only thirteen Euros. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] And then we'll lose fifty cent in what? [speaker001:] So uh [disfmarker] yeah. Yeah. Then you have [disfmarker] Or you have to cut this off. [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] uh-uh. [speaker001:] Then it's not good anymore. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] So, wait. Okay. I'll have a look. [vocalsound] We [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And if you say it's just a r uh normal colour [disfmarker] it's a normal colour, wh [vocalsound] No one will see it. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yellow rubber. Yeah, normal. [speaker003:] Normal colour, and the the joystick away, and put the button up, button down, right, left. [speaker001:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And it's twelve Euros, I think. [speaker001:] One minute, please. Uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Is it maximum. Um [disfmarker] Yeah, it's normal colour. But if you lose the joystick, it's still uh an advanced chip? [speaker003:] No. Uh, no, no, no. [speaker001:] Or it's then a regular? [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] Oh, wait wait wait. [speaker004:] The advanced chip was for the LCD wasn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] So, the advanced is for the LCD and the regular for the joystick. [speaker003:] Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] And what if we lose the LCD? [speaker003:] If we lose the LCD, then we have an uh regular chip and no LCD. [speaker001:] Yeah, regular chip. But [disfmarker] Is it a good design? [speaker003:] Uh, yeah. Then you'll have to m uh see the menu on the television. And you don't have the LCD. [speaker004:] If uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So, the TVs has to uh [disfmarker] have to be up-to-date. [speaker004:] If we have the n no buttons [disfmarker] If we have we have uh not a joystick but buttons, we would have [disfmarker] uh, we have thirteen Euros? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm, yes. [speaker004:] And then uh we move the the colour. What will that be? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Then it's okay. [speaker003:] Huh. No knew that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay, so no joystick. Oh no, but we [disfmarker] then we get push-buttons from half a Euro. [speaker003:] Yeah, then it's twelve Euro fifty, then it's okay. [speaker001:] Uh, yes, yes, yes, yes. No joystick. Push-buttons. No special colour. Twelve and a half Euros. Then it's okay. So, we have to change that a little bit. And you cannot use the red and green button. Because if you give them a s uh colour, [speaker002:] Okay. All the same uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] you have to pay point two Euros. [speaker003:] So, all the buttons has to [disfmarker] have to be the same colour. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] But then the print on it will g um change it. Make it uh for everybody to see what button it is. Uh l How you call it? [speaker002:] Mm, yeah. Recognisable. [speaker003:] Recognisable, yeah. [speaker002:] Like what [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm, yeah. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] [gap] So [disfmarker] Well [disfmarker] Now we have to change that, but that's okay. Rubber. What's the normal colour? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Oh, well that's clear. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] And [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Where's [gap]? Yeah. So, now it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And the joystick away. And its buttons. [speaker001:] Yeah. It is. But then it will be just that ones. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now it's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] still, he waited at the [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Very good. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] Now, uh project eva evaluation. Well [disfmarker] What do you think of it? Uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] About the [speaker004:] Project. [speaker001:] About the project. [speaker003:] process. Went good. Uh [disfmarker] I think uh the creativity uh [vocalsound] was good enough. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We have a gun instead of a remote control. Um [disfmarker] Uh leadership. Yeah, you were the project project manager, and uh had the final vote. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] yeah that was clear. Team-work okay. Everybody uh has something uh to say about it. And uh [disfmarker] no, uh o only the [disfmarker] [vocalsound] the drawing uh was very difficult. But, nah. New ideas found. [vocalsound] Nope. [speaker001:] Okay. And you. [speaker002:] Yeah, well the same. I I espe I especially uh liked the the means, the the SMARTboard and uh [disfmarker] Yeah, it uh [disfmarker] It brings up new ideas when you work with uh with it. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, I think you have to compare it to if you would have a normal um normal project without laptops uh and without these devices. I think um [disfmarker] Well, the laptops if you have them out front of you, you sometimes looking at that instead of the presentation. Um, well uh the draw-board, well you can draw things. But it not really going very convenient. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Uh, maybe it will be easier if you have a smaller monitor [gap] and uh you would also see there. And with a normal mouse. Um, and uh the project. Yeah, I agree on what was said uh mainly. Uh, yeah but you always have that some people are talking more than others. And maybe is then um the task of the the project manager to also uh ask more to the people uh less talking. To tell their opinion. [speaker001:] Okay. Well, what do I have to say. I think it was good. Not too many discussions. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No. [speaker001:] So, it's good for the speed. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] So, I think we're ready. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Good price. Evaluation ready. Ready. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Beer. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] That's it. [speaker003:] Yeah? Okay then. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] [gap].

[speaker001:] Right w welcome to the the first meeting of uh Real Reaction's uh um development meetings for our our new television remote control. Uh this follows our very successful entry into the the consumer market over the last year or so um which we want to to build on, taking advantage of the uh the the latest developments in in technology and the uh the latest uh [vocalsound] uh feelings in in consumer design and and demand and uh we want to make this the the very best product th that's possible for everybody, uh one that everybody wants, uh at a good price for the consumer and at a good price for the company. Uh and to that end we need all to work together uh to do that. Um and uh b in no particular order because ev everybody is uh [vocalsound] just as vital to this project [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] um [vocalsound] I'll just go round th the table, Andrew, marketing, um m Kendra with the uh um [disfmarker] designing the the the User Interface uh uh and Kate with the the industrial design. Um. [vocalsound] What's uh [disfmarker] the the th th project is is here to do, is is to to get this this project up and moving, ev everybody is is free to uh say wh whatever they want, uh everybody has a contribution to make and uh [vocalsound] everybody feel free to interrupt me at any time to to say what you want to say. Um in in terms of the immediate meeting the uh um [gap] everybody knows everybody else, everybody's worked for the the company for a while, if if an anybody feels that they need to say more about themselves please do, if if if anybody wants to b briefly give their their background so that everybody's quite clear what everybody uh [disfmarker] uh everybody's experience is please do so. Uh in fact I'd I'd I'd welcome anybody to uh say something briefly about themselves, in fact we will do that by by going round the table quickly and and saying what what contribution you [disfmarker] you're looking to make. So we'll start with Andrew. [speaker004:] Oh my name's Andrew I'm a [disfmarker] I'm the Market Research person for this uh for this meeting and this uh project for creating this new remote control and uh yeah I'll be uh presenting information statistics on what people want to want to uh get from this new design, what people want to [gap] like [disfmarker] and from a fashion point of view and the practicality point of view. [speaker001:] Right [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I'm Kendra [speaker001:] Kendra. [speaker003:] and I'm the Us User Interface Designer and um [vocalsound] I haven't had a whole lot of experience in this kind of thing before but I'm m so I'll be [vocalsound] working on the design. [speaker001:] Right at least means you haven't got any preconceived ideas so. [speaker003:] Right. Yep, I'm just open to being creative. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Uh I'm Katie, [speaker001:] Yep, good. [speaker002:] I'm the Industrial Designer and I'll just be I guess presenting about the the inter workings of our little remote control and uh [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, very very quickly, um [vocalsound] this [disfmarker] I don't want to make this meeting too structured because the the whole idea is that it's a um you know a think tank. Everybody says what they [gap] what they want to say, uh and we don't want to be constrained by uh kind of convention or uh uh slides on screens or or anything else um but um briefly um th th this is what we want to do. The the remote control needs to be original, there has to be something about it that uh other remote controls don't have so that as soon as people see it they think um yes that's different, uh I want one, um and that goes along with being trendy, uh uh you know the I want it uh scenario. User-friendly as as we all know, remote controls can be uh uh very user-unfriendly so we want to make ours one that people can pick up [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and think oh yes that's [disfmarker] it's obvious how that works, uh and they also want to look at the price and think oh yeah that's something that [disfmarker] I may not need another remote control but uh it's such a nice one I'm gonna have one. And last but not least, or indeed first of all, it it must make the company money, and we make the company money by producing what the consumer wants. The uh the further work to be done is i the um the functional design, uh what it uh what it must actually do, the uh conceptual design, uh how we actually present that to the consumer and th the the detailed design i is uh how we get that into production. Uh now th the main design tool that we have available to us at the moment is is the white board and uh uh [vocalsound] let us very quickly do what i what it says in the in the in the prompt slide here, um [disfmarker] In fact I suggest to avoid everybody untangling themselves from the uh the the wires, that we don't do that, um So I I [disfmarker] everybody knows what whiteboard is so we'll um uh we'll do a virtual drawing on the on on the whiteboard of of your your own uh uh favourite animal, but le let's go round the table, your favourite animal. [speaker004:] Um, badger. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm and why? [speaker004:] Uh it's it's got nice contrast with black [vocalsound] and white and uh [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker004:] I feel they're [gap] underdog kind of status and they're, the [speaker001:] Oh right uh my my wife says my beard looks like a badger's arse [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] 'cause of the the white streaks in it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um probably a duck [speaker001:] Kendra. [speaker003:] I just [disfmarker] I li I like the way they look and they're just nice animals and I like how they can fly or swim or walk around or whatever. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. Right, okay. [speaker002:] Uh 's horses, no particular reason why [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh-huh, [gap] fair enough yeah. I'm not sure that I've got any favourite animal to be quite honest, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I think homo sapien because of their [disfmarker] their uh overall ability to uh uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Make mobile phones and TV remotes [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Sorry? [speaker004:] to make TV remotes [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Indeed absolutely yes, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] tha that's um [disfmarker] Okay and uh w we need to keep in mind here that the uh [disfmarker] we want to sell this for for twenty five Euro um, we want to m make an overall profit for the the company of fifty million Euros so we're we're looking at selling a lot of these um ag across the the entire planet and and we're looking at a gross profit of fifty percent. [vocalsound] It needs to cost twelve Euros fifty to make. Um so we're not only looking at a a very trendy original product, we're looking at making it at a very good price. Um, okay, um [vocalsound] would anybody like t like to to start by giving their o um sort of quick views of of current remote controls. [speaker003:] Well I think [disfmarker] I find a lot of them really complicated to use with all the different buttons and uh it's handiest when you have one that works both the DVD player or whatever and the TV as well. Um, but that [disfmarker] it's easy to [gap] if you can switch back and forth instead of having to [vocalsound] press a bunch of different buttons [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] and [disfmarker] so I think it's is best when they're clearly labelled and you can see which buttons you're supposed to use, you know. [speaker001:] Any any thoughts about buttons or any oth other way of approaching the p the uh the problem? Or anybody else, strong feelings about remote controls? Are there you know, bad ones they've used or good ones they've used or ones that they've lost and never found again? [speaker002:] Um [disfmarker] [vocalsound] I think it's important that you should be able to [disfmarker] when you when you press the buttons it'll actually pick up the signals from kind of anywhere and you shouldn't have to like contort yourself and twist your remote control to get it [disfmarker] the TV to actually pick up the signal. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Think a lot of the time, remotes that come with TV players and [gap] TVs and DV players, like they aren't [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] like an area that's put a lot of effort into, they're very boring, very plain. Like it's very [disfmarker] a very [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] like um making a a stylish remote control would be a very like [disfmarker] Easily put us one step ahead of the current competition. [speaker001:] Um what so wh what's in in [disfmarker] what particular style features are you thinking about? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Um. Something that looks looks [disfmarker] doesn't look like remote control. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So if you want, [vocalsound] something that looks like uh [disfmarker] something that makes you think oh what's this? Like this pen doesn't really look like a pen, but it makes you think oh. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker004:] So, [speaker001:] [gap]. Yeah [speaker004:] sorry that's a bit vague [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] d no I mean do you think there's a risk if it doesn't look like remote control, [vocalsound] people won't see it as a remote control um and uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Uh I suppose suppose that's up to the marketing to to make make people aware of the product. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. Any other thoughts about um th the physical appearance of a [disfmarker] of remote controls? [speaker003:] I think something that's comfortable to hold because sometimes you get the remote controls that are just those big, rectangular things [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] and uh they're kind of awkward to hold onto, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] so something that's more comfortable that fits in a person's hand better. [speaker001:] I mean th the thing that i immediately comes to mind is computer mouses which um I mean y you get all sorts of shapes in the shops [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and s you know some quite fancy ones [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] um than the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] some from personal experience which look nice [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] but [vocalsound] aren't particularly comfortable. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Um [vocalsound] any thoughts about buttons or flat screens or uh uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Well from the mouse idea you could, [gap] remote is a piece of plastic with the big rubber buttons sticking out of it which you press, whereas if you want [gap] [disfmarker] could all be flat and the buttons are very kind of almost subtle that instead of being raised out of the device uh you push into device you see, like a mouse button. [speaker001:] Yes, I mean [vocalsound] the only thing is if if you're watching television in a in a a darkened room um you need to be able to uh [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I suppose. [speaker001:] fi find the button buttons easily. [speaker004:] Easily, yeah yeah. [speaker003:] But maybe they could be concave instead of sticking up to have them [disfmarker] be kind of down so you could feel them [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] better. [speaker001:] Yeah, that's uh [disfmarker] must admit I don't think I've ever seen one with concave buttons, that's uh [disfmarker] certainly be different. Um do we need it to uh [disfmarker] I can't think of any re remote controls that I know of that actually light up at all. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah. [speaker001:] Do we do we want uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm that would be good. [speaker003:] Like a like a mobile phone? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm, yeah that would be good. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay. So, Andrew have you had any thoughts yet about how we might market something which there are already millions out there and that we want to uh uh uh t take over the entire um [disfmarker] the planet with? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm, um [vocalsound] especially if we try to sell, what two million of them. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh sorry, four million of 'em, but uh [disfmarker] I think if w if we market it as as not as not [disfmarker] well this [disfmarker] you c you could either market it as the point of view [disfmarker] we could have the two [disfmarker] we could have parallel marketing s schemes where you've got one where it appeals to people that want to have the new device that looks cool, is fashionable [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and like you just [disfmarker] it's it's like uh it's one that rather than ra I wan I want rather than a kind of a need relationship with the device, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] but that might [disfmarker] considering the act what the device is for and the nature of some people might not like respond to having a device that they just looks nice, therefore they want it so [disfmarker] make it practical at the same time. I think it's [disfmarker] this is gonna have to appeal to people that want device that can enhance their living room uh but also a device that uh [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] is practically sound. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah, yeah, well [speaker004:] So um, I dunno we'll have to decide which which angle we're gonna go to or both. If you [gap]. [speaker001:] I d I think an any uh any facets that we identify w we aim [disfmarker] need to aim for for all of. [speaker004:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Um okay well first thoughts on um the the industrial design side. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Oh I think it's it's [disfmarker] remote controls are kind of a unique object 'cause it's [disfmarker] you depend on them so much, but you don't [disfmarker] i i it's [disfmarker] you sort of just assume they're always gonna work, you don't think of them as a comp like a computer can break down and you're kinda like oh well fair enough there's all these complex things going on, it's gonna [disfmarker] something's gonna get messed up eventually. They they just need to be very very dependable because people sort of take them for granted and then if your remote control breaks it's [gap] [disfmarker] God forbid you actually get up and manually change the channel [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Indeed. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] it just [disfmarker] it needs to be very effective, very [disfmarker] always dependable. Uh I don't think we should make it too small I [disfmarker] 'cause I think it needs to [gap] it can't be too big like you were saying big an and huge and um awkward, but also if you make it too small kinda like you know how mobile phones are getting smaller and smaller um, it's just gonna end up under a couch cushion somewhere and um yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] so yes dependable, and have a [gap] good medium range size. [speaker001:] Okay, and um colours, materials? Kendra, anyone? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Well, most [disfmarker] I think most of the remote controls now are either just black or grey, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker003:] so maybe we should go with something different or be able to [disfmarker] I was just thinking of um [vocalsound] what they're doing with mobile phones now how you can get the different um [disfmarker] what are they called? Like the face-plates [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm, mm-hmm. [speaker003:] that you change so we could have maybe [disfmarker] I don't know if it would be feasible to do something with that, where you can change the face-plates or have kind of a variety [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker003:] so people can get different different things. Have it kind of look how they want to, different colours, things like that, [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] probably just plastic because that's always the lightest. [speaker001:] Yeah. Okay that's uh [disfmarker] Again I don't think that's ever been done before, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] it's uh the sort of [gap] the sort of thing that would get people uh thinking yes that's something that I haven't got and uh might need so. Uh Andrew, any thoughts about uh how we might market interchangeable fronts on on the remote control? [speaker004:] Um, well we could either market it together by getting control in a set colour or with [disfmarker] like you buy it with several uh like you ge you get the f uh the face-plates with it when you buy or as a separate thing, but uh [vocalsound] maybe thinking of that, it's [disfmarker] considering the nature of the device, maybe a second thing [disfmarker] like a second campaign to market new facials for your [disfmarker] to your [disfmarker] might go a bit astray [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] since it is the kind of thing where y you generally get one [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and then forget about it. Unless you were trying to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well you could come up with like novelty ones, [speaker001:] I think [disfmarker] [speaker002:] like they've done with the the mobile phones, you can get like different you know scenes from different movies and stuff on the remote control [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh it's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] and sorta stagger the release of them [speaker004:] that's a that's a good idea. [speaker002:] and get people like oh I want that cover on it now and that'll keep them spending money. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] Right, okay [speaker004:] Yeah true. [speaker001:] I think we've got um a good idea now. We uh [disfmarker] meeting is uh [disfmarker] Needs to be k uh wrapped up fairly quickly. So uh um we've got thirty minutes to start looking at the um at the design in more detail. Um then we'll we will reconvene in in thirty minutes and try to get some of these ideas uh uh more formalised. Uh thank you very much indeed. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Thank you.

[speaker001:] Uh fourth meeting. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] We have to do what? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] W what? Alri alright. We'll see. [speaker001:] Some extra deciding. [vocalsound] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] [gap] I'll show you the notes again. Very interesting. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well you'll you two will uh present us your prototype. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Then um [disfmarker] I guess that's your bit? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I I didn't s see anything about it, so [vocalsound] I already uh thought you uh you were [gap] to do that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So the you're uh [gap]. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I'll show you how we're going to do with financing this uh design. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's important too. Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Bit late. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] And then we'll evaluate, after after we have redesigned it. Because uh well we'll see about the costs. Um we'll uh evaluate our p our uh production and then uh we can close. [speaker003:] Alright. [speaker001:] Well the finance uh we'll do later, so um firstly uh [vocalsound] I'll show you the notes. [vocalsound] I don't think it's very interesting. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I think it is. [speaker001:] Oh nei. Uh no. [vocalsound] Alright. This is copy paste. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] From me of course, yeah. [speaker001:] Of course. You had some very strange layout. [speaker003:] Well from us all, yeah, from all of us. Yeah. [vocalsound] It's a nice chorus, yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We ge we went through the agenda, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and well we had some uh some presentations from you three. And uh I summarised what you said to us. So uh I don't think it's very interesting and go through it again. [speaker003:] Repeat it yeah. Alright. [speaker001:] So uh [disfmarker] This is what we decided. It's also copy paste from what we made together. So we still know that. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] And then uh we can we can uh use the time better. Well uh next you two will uh present uh the pot prototype for us. [speaker003:] Alright, we both uh will? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Or one of us will? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Alright. [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No you go and I'll uh supplement you. [speaker003:] Alright. If I make mistakes uh you'll uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Correct. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Right. Uh well [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] this is our design. Uh it's pretty uh much uh like uh Mike draw uh drew uh the in the during the last meeting. With uh the different uh perspectives of it. Uh we'll begin uh with the front. We have of course uh the the round shape uh the round uh basic shape. Um with uh the upper part being the front. Th So there's this part um [vocalsound] which is made of hard plastic, the front. And uh we're we're using different colours. Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours, and later we'll put out uh more interesting covers with different patterns and pictures and everything. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] But basically, different colours, bright colours not black, too dark. Fancy colours. [vocalsound] Um then we have uh the lower part [vocalsound] of the of the device. Uh which is of course um part of the back actually, because it's also titanium. You can see it also on the on the on the side view, that only this part is the front, and the rest of it, the under uh the under side uh of it, yeah, the back side and the lower part of the front is of course titanium made of titanium, and has the titanium colour of course, the look. Um then we have uh on back on the front uh the logo in the upper corner, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] uh which is uh made uh which is also part of the back, part of the titanium uh titanium part. [speaker002:] Yeah, it's a double R, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah? [speaker002:] It's a double R. [speaker003:] It's a double R. Yeah the logo [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But [vocalsound] it's very difficult to to draw that in [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker003:] Uh uh it's difficult to draw so small, [speaker001:] Yeah, alright. [speaker003:] but it's our double R uh logo is in there. [speaker001:] Okay. Yeah. [speaker003:] Um so that's the logo in the upper lef uh right corner. Then we have the buttons. Uh it's difficult to draw again the little oval or round [disfmarker] I think oval will be better for the for the d for the different uh channel buttons. [speaker002:] Oval yeah. [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker003:] So [gap] uh oval, n those are here. And then we have the m The m [speaker002:] Channel up and volume? [speaker003:] Yeah the the con the the the, yeah, the t volume and the channel controls uh in the middle here. Um um with kind of arrow shapes, which makes it also a bit more exciting than basic round or um uh [vocalsound] uh square buttons. And also here are the two uh buttons we agreed on. We have the Okay button. Oh nei we uh the Okay button's here in the middle of the of the operators, of the channel and uh volume um changers. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] And then we've here the Menu button and the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker002:] Menu for the LCD screen. [speaker003:] And the video button. The [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm right. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. And of course this low part, this is the LCD screen. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker003:] Uh this is what we made of it. You can make uh suggestions uh if you want. [speaker001:] Well if I look at it, the side the side view [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, at the back [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Maybe we maybe we should finish first uh our talk [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and then you can add suggestions. [speaker001:] Oh yeah alright. Yeah [gap]. [speaker003:] Maybe I I don't want to [disfmarker] [vocalsound] I don't want to suppress you but n I'll uh finish this uh quick. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Um okay I've had everything I guess on the front? [speaker002:] No the back. With the logo and our uh l uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah the back. Yeah. [vocalsound] We thought about [disfmarker] Yeah, uh the back is of course totally titanium. [vocalsound] And we thought about the logo big in the middle. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Just so again the double R. We have then the logo on front and on the back. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Maybe that's too much [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] but you have to say uh say that if you think that way. [speaker002:] No I don't think [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And the company slogan, we thought in a kind of arc shape uh above the logo. [speaker002:] And the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] That's basically what we were thinking about, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] And about the side view um [disfmarker] This the front won't be as thick, [speaker001:] W [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but again th the the drawing technique makes it very difficult to to really uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well I see, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh and uh before I forget. Yeah the the voice, of course, [speaker001:] Well. Yeah I see it. [speaker003:] the voice recorder is uh at the bottom. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] And you can record it uh using, yeah, the the the back of the f w device. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] When I look at uh when I look at this side view, I think w when I have that in my hand, it's terrible. [speaker002:] Well, it won't be visible. Mm? [speaker001:] If if you look if if this this is thick, and this is thin, th th then it that it lies over your hands. But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Why? [vocalsound] Well it fits uh it it it it fits the hand, [vocalsound] mean uh the the the the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker001:] Well what what what I what I agree is that when uh when um you have such of uh an arc in the middle, so that the the a the ends and the fronts is a bit thicker, so th then it falls over your hands. [speaker002:] [gap] If y [vocalsound] If you handle a remote, you you usually don't have your hand straight like this. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] In the middle in the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] You you have it a bit uh [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker004:] It depends on the size. If it's kinda small, this is is great. But if it's it's larger, then you want to grab it. [speaker001:] And how large is it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's the question. [speaker003:] That's the question. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh well [disfmarker] Yeah. H What do you suggest I mean we do? [gap] This was Mike's prototype, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] and y you seemed to agreed on it. But now you have a totally different [gap]. [speaker001:] Well the sides I haven't seen yet, uh [gap]? [speaker002:] Well, they lay there all the time. [speaker003:] The size? Yeah well the size doesn't really matter w I mean [disfmarker] [speaker001:] They the the the the the side view, [speaker003:] Side? Uh oh the side? [speaker001:] we didn't uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] W we we he drew the s the side, [speaker002:] Yeah yeah. [speaker003:] but you d you weren't paying attention as usual. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well any case, we'll discuss it now. Uh I think uh this is a pretty good uh good idea [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree with the LCD screen. You have it in your palm like this, and you can watch uh watch the screen. And if you have it li in the middle, your hand might be over it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] But you you hold it like this. [speaker002:] Yeah you you don't you don't grab it, [speaker003:] You're not holding it like this or something. [speaker002:] you you [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You, yeah, y How do you call it? Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well y y y you don't have it like this. You have it more like this. [speaker001:] No no no. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap] You you you're using buttons this way, or if you're right-handed, this way. [speaker004:] Like you're holding your telephone. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So you [disfmarker] Yeah. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Because if you have a screen on it, you wanna look at your screen. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] That way, it it falls into your hand. I think. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree on this. [speaker003:] And maybe you can you can grab it a bit higher, so [disfmarker] Well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No, I don't think so. That's not uh the point [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No but but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well the the [disfmarker] Well that's a reason to to to put the LCD screen uh of course on the upper side, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Well f for as far as I can see, three of us agree and only Nils [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah well uh I think uh if you t if you three uh agree then then that's it. [speaker002:] But you're the Project Manager, you can make the hard decisions. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yes. So uh I c I c [speaker003:] If necessary. But uh are d Can you live with it? Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, we'll we we'll do it like this. [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker001:] Alright, if you think that that's the way it should [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Y Yeah, y y y y you said it was totally uh unusable. [speaker001:] No [disfmarker] No, [speaker003:] But do you [speaker001:] when I I my personal taste is that I want it to fall over my hands with a thick [disfmarker] But [disfmarker] In the market uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But d you don't think this is completely unusable I guess. I think. [speaker001:] No not totally. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Not totally, well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] For me, I I wouldn't buy it. Let's say it like that. [speaker003:] Yeah but of course y you are also human. We have to take uh [vocalsound] every everyone into account. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And you might be uh [disfmarker] You might be target customer. [speaker003:] Yeah. Well uh who who else thinks like you? [speaker001:] Yes but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] We don't know. Maybe a thousand people, [speaker001:] Yeah, we don't know, but that's uh that's that's that's more market research. [speaker003:] or a million people. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So [vocalsound] let it be like this at uh at this moment. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Let it be. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Alright. [speaker001:] Okay? [speaker003:] So that's that. Uh any other suggestions? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No, I think it's great. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But what about the redesigning? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Comes to that later. [speaker002:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Um you. Uh c You can uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Walter. [vocalsound] You can do the evaluation uh criteria on this? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] You're very personal again. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Alright. Great. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] That's more useful than just [vocalsound] speaking. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Well, this is just a short intro. I'm going to do uh the ev evaluation. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker004:] That's gonna be done at the end of seven point skill criteria. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So I made a [disfmarker] I made a few questions on the hand of uh uh the impor most important requirements and trends. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] And we have to look if our uh if our device uh is working correctly. Well, I put some questions in a Word file. See if I can find them. Uh uh uh uh mm. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker004:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] I uh think you have all seen uh this kind of evaluation, so uh I don't have to explain it. Uh the first question is, uh is the device good-looking? Because normal p uh most people thought that um earlier devices were ugly ugly. Seventy five percent of them. So what do we think? [speaker003:] Well d we designed it, so of course we are very [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah, we're we're not quite uh objective about this. [speaker004:] Yeah [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] No, I know, [speaker002:] Well we designed it to be good-looking. [speaker004:] but [vocalsound] I have to uh evaluate it. So I have to take this questionnaire. [speaker003:] So and we ha we have answer now? [speaker001:] To the customers? To potential customers who have to take this questionnaire? [speaker004:] Yeah [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah, but I can't can s [speaker001:] Nei. Oh no. I know, I know, I know. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker001:] But um [disfmarker] Well [vocalsound] we can go, uh because of the time, uh pretty quick through this. Uh do we find it good-looking? Well we think so. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I [disfmarker] Yeah, I think it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. We designed it to be good-looking, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, but uh, you know [disfmarker] We dis we di [vocalsound] we designed it to be perfect. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So [vocalsound] [disfmarker] But we have to be critic critical about it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And I have to uh take all these points and get a average at the end. So we [vocalsound] we know where we stand. [speaker001:] Well, one. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] 'Cause th there are some things we might have uh bi might have forgotten. [speaker001:] Well so it's point four. [speaker004:] Right, so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Easy to find t [speaker003:] Well l well let's start with the beginning, just one by one. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Right. Uh is it good-looking? [speaker003:] Well, I guess uh I think uh [vocalsound] it's uh it's it's um pointed towards the youth of course, uh if you look at the design and and the colours and everything. [gap] [speaker001:] Two. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That was our target audience of course. But it's also not completely um [vocalsound] uh u unacceptable for older people I guess. Uh it's it's not f a device that [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The titanium might be uh f for older people. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's that's uh for older people, it's it's more that classical look. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It you put uh put a black front on it or something. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] Uh no. [vocalsound] I think [disfmarker] Yeah they like black of course, but I think they'll uh they they think uh the the titanium look of it is also [disfmarker] Uh I think it's also good for them, so I think we both uh have uh consider considered uh the youth and also a bit older people. So I think it's very good-looking [speaker004:] Right. [speaker003:] and not only for youth uh young people. [speaker002:] I think we shouldn't discuss any points points that long, because I don't know how how many points there are but uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Right. [speaker001:] No. I totally agree. [speaker003:] Yeah, the fourteen yeah. [speaker001:] We we have to get get on, go through this. [speaker004:] Right, a number please. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Is it easy to t change channels? Yeah well I think so. [speaker004:] So the last one is seven. Easy to change channels? [speaker002:] Um, no it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, not false. It's one. [speaker004:] Oh, sorry. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, right. [speaker001:] Well uh two? [speaker004:] Change channels? [speaker001:] Y Well we have to go through it [gap]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I think it's uh as easy as uh can be made. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Right. [speaker003:] So I [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Yeah. You [disfmarker] How can you make it any easier? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] The power, channel and volume buttons are easy accessible? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] With two huge buttons. [speaker003:] Yeah, huge is a [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yep. Two. [speaker004:] Two? Alright. The uh device is easy to find if you lose it? [speaker001:] Well, no. [speaker003:] D we d we don't we don't have uh that s [speaker001:] We didn't implement anything about that. [gap] [speaker002:] Well it's easier to find than a a normal black one or something, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well six then. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] because of the colour. But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Six? Right. [speaker003:] Well we don't have the device that beeps uh when you lost it or so, [speaker001:] Are the functions easy to learn? [speaker003:] but um um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well w I we do want we have a l f f less of an [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [gap] We have so few functions, so [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker001:] And the device RSI sensitive? [speaker002:] Well, I should [disfmarker] I think two, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because [vocalsound] the voice recorder is n not self learning. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] Alright. Two? [speaker003:] Mm? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, but just do some [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [gap] We we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I th I th I think this is too time consuming. [speaker003:] Are we take too much time? [speaker001:] Uh not not towards you, [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. No. [speaker001:] but towards this all. Th this is [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Right, [speaker001:] We you have to put it to the customers. [speaker004:] R RSI sensitive? [vocalsound] RSI sensitive? [speaker001:] Uh well well a bit, so four. [speaker004:] Four. Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yeah, very much. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] One. [speaker001:] One. And features included also one. And [disfmarker] [vocalsound] One. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh those uh nine uh is the fancy-looking. Uh we still think so. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Device fancy feeling. [speaker003:] And I think fancy-feeling too, [speaker001:] Yeah, cool man. [speaker003:] because of the titanium back. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Right. [speaker001:] Are there enough technology? Yeah well also we have two. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that's great. [speaker001:] Is the device easy to use? [speaker002:] The [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yes we have [vocalsound] not many buttons. [speaker003:] So well maybe two [speaker004:] Well, with the uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] because of the voice recorder. [speaker002:] Two [vocalsound] two. [speaker001:] Two, three. [speaker004:] Three. [speaker002:] T [speaker001:] Are the trends about fruit and vegetables implemented? [speaker003:] F [speaker001:] Well in our covers, in our fronts. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So yes, one. [speaker003:] Yeah. One or two. Yeah. [speaker002:] One or two, another two. [speaker004:] Nah f four I think. [speaker003:] Four? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] If you look at this [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well, it doesn't really resemble any fruit, uh that's true. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] But but we have the the the the the sparkly fruity colours of course. [speaker001:] Oh okay. Okay [gap]. [speaker002:] Well three. [speaker004:] Three, alright. [speaker003:] And you can also have [gap] front with uh with fruit on it. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, that's true. [speaker001:] Is the material attractive? [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Well the titanium is strong, and uh the rest f uh the buttons feel soft. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So I would say at least two. [speaker004:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] This is the last meeting? [speaker001:] Yes, but we we have to design much more, [speaker004:] The average will uh come later. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because there was some irritating account manager coming to me. [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I knew things uh were going uh too smoothly. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] There had to be some kind of trouble along the way. [speaker001:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yes. Well, look at the costs at this point. [speaker003:] My god. [speaker001:] I had to fit it in. [speaker004:] It has to go to twelve, right? [speaker001:] I twelve and a half. [speaker004:] Twelve and a half. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Well what costs a lot? The sample spea costs four. [speaker003:] The what? The [disfmarker] [speaker001:] The sample speaker, [speaker004:] Out. [speaker001:] the s sensor. [speaker004:] That's easy. Kick it out. [speaker001:] Kick it out. [speaker002:] The what? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We have to go to twelve and a half. [speaker004:] The speaker. [speaker001:] The speaker costs far, by far the most. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker003:] Yeah w tha that's uh that's a bit an optional option. [speaker004:] That's some wrong info, man. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It it isn't worth it. [speaker003:] No. No, d th No. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] We could make two different versions, one with and one without. [speaker004:] It's uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But for this [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] It's just extra. Kick it out. [speaker001:] So, zero. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Then we go to fourteen point six. [speaker004:] What more? [speaker001:] Well the titanium I don't want to lose actually. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Batteries are uh quite [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] LC three? Yeah hand dynamo? Y t come on, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh no, no no no. [speaker002:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] w a remote control has a battery. [speaker003:] N Uh well we have a bit of a problem I think. Because uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well well why why why should we use a advanced chip? [speaker001:] Well be for the LCD uh you had said. [speaker003:] [gap] the LCD screen. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Can't we do that with a regular chip? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Why not? [speaker003:] Because uh that uh y [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well what what's the difference between simple and regular? [speaker003:] because my information says it. Huh? [speaker001:] What's the difference between a simple and a regular chip? [speaker002:] Yeah. Regular is normal. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And simple? [speaker003:] Uh well yeah I I read something about it, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Simple. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Nothing. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Elementary. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Yeah, [speaker001:] Well [gap]? [speaker003:] I I read something about it, [speaker001:] Your part. [speaker003:] but it wasn't very clear. I d I didn't in include it in my report. [speaker001:] What happens if we do [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Single [disfmarker] Well you have to use a chip. So [disfmarker] Well you have to use the advanced chip, if you have the LCD screen. [speaker001:] How much do we win? [speaker002:] We we we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] One. [speaker002:] Why? [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] We have very little options furthermore, for the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But if you have a regular chip, you can't have the LCD screen. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Uh well we have to put that in. [speaker004:] Yeah, we need to have the [vocalsound] the LCD screen. [speaker003:] That that's a fact. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, we could say, well this special colour, that isn't that that isn't there, [speaker004:] No [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] because the the fronts they will buy it. The special colour. [speaker004:] Yeah, but [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, but it's only one half. [speaker002:] Nah. [speaker004:] No, that's n It's not relevant. [speaker003:] Uh it d it doesn't [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Yeah, you must change the chip uh back. [speaker001:] then you s then you only have one half left. [speaker002:] You must change the chip back, Nils. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Uh yeah. [speaker003:] But we d Then we have to lose the LCD screen. [speaker004:] No, [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Then the whole concept is uh [speaker003:] Yeah, I know but that's what my information says. I di I didn't uh put uh the advanced chip in there for fun. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Hmm. [vocalsound] No [vocalsound] we oh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] You [disfmarker] You can make you can make it cheaper. [speaker003:] You have to use it. [speaker004:] But if you don't sell [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] You you we have an advanced chip-on-print, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and we have an LC display. I think that's a bit double. [speaker001:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Y we don't need both. [speaker001:] No, [vocalsound] the advanced chip is needed to have an LCD display. [speaker003:] For the LCD screen. Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Says [gap]. [speaker001:] Says, his [disfmarker] Uh that was in the second meeting, I think. [speaker003:] Well uh and what do they mean with curves uh again? Because we you have uncurved [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well I I did single curve to [disfmarker] Well you said s double curved, [speaker002:] I? [gap]? [speaker001:] uh he, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because uh I thought it's a b a bit cheaper already. [speaker004:] [gap] No [speaker001:] We can also make it flat. [speaker003:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker004:] no no no. [speaker003:] But what what did what do n [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Sorry, but [disfmarker] [vocalsound] What do they mean with the curves? Is th Is this a curve? [speaker001:] Curved? Yes, that's curved. [speaker003:] One curve? Yeah, this is actually two curves, yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] It's how you [disfmarker] It's how you look at it. [speaker001:] No, it's one curve. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] One curve. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] One curve, simple. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] Well then we have a huge problem I think. W t we can never get uh below the twelve and a half. [speaker001:] We have a big financial problem. [speaker002:] Well we make it more expensive to buy. [speaker001:] Well, then we have two dollars less profit. Come on, if we if we if we make this fifty million, they won't hesitate to uh congratulate us, so uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] If if you make people brand-aware, they are willing to pay more. But [disfmarker] Because we we use a brand at the front and uh I dun at the back. If you have uh lots of uh marketing people might buy. [speaker003:] But uh I [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah or we could replace it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] If you if you make it cool to have [disfmarker] [speaker001:] By the way, we also have this one. [speaker004:] Oh, that's just great. [speaker001:] Oh, costs nothing. [speaker004:] Oh, alright. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] That's nice. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Hey but uh I think you'll agree that uh that we that now we have this uh screen, it's it's very uh not practical to ha to consider this after we have designed the entire thing. [speaker001:] Plastic is [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] Yes, but I just got it. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Well that's pretty uh l [speaker002:] Why why don't we replace the titanium with uh plastic coloured titanium, [speaker004:] That is pretty stupid. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] N not very practical. [vocalsound] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] uh titanium-coloured plastic? [speaker001:] Who? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] You want to dump the titanium? [speaker002:] Yeah well if we uh we we have to get cheaper. [speaker001:] And make all plastic, then we ha then we're there. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But I'm n I don't agree. [speaker002:] But then we we've got to uh run through the eval evaluation process again. [speaker003:] I think [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Th then you have a ugly, stupid, l ugly looking, dumb remote that that no-one would buy. [speaker002:] Ah no no. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It's not ugly looking. The looks remain the same. [speaker001:] No, I don't think so. [speaker004:] Y [speaker002:] Well, I do think so. [speaker003:] I think the titanium just uh provided the the tough look and the and the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yes. And the feel, [speaker002:] [gap] feel. [speaker001:] and th that it is strong, and [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And also the the older people will like it because of that. And because i [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker003:] Alright it's not our target audience, but it's it's useful if it's uh important for old people. [speaker001:] We still [vocalsound] we had to focus to get more people from the younger group, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] but not lose the one [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I think the titanium is very important. [speaker002:] Yeah alright but then we we won't get there. [speaker003:] Yeah we have a problem, yeah. W But you can better, yeah, dump the LCD screen then. [speaker002:] We can dump the special colour. We l we use plastic. And plastic is already in colour I think. [speaker004:] I don't think you should dump the LCD screen. [speaker003:] Well what else? W I mean uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No, nothing. [speaker004:] Or you shou [vocalsound] It's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Amen. [speaker004:] Or change the titanium or dump the LCD screen. But I think you could better change uh titanium to hard a hard kind of plastic looking like titanium than lose the LCD screen. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Because you have lots of functions [vocalsound] in it too. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, well yeah. Alright. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Why can't I [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I agree with that. [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So we u we use uh [disfmarker] Unfortunately. Um. Titanium-coloured plastic. [speaker001:] I'll put in the report we that we think that fourteen point one is the l m lowest price you can make a remote for that's trendy d these days. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker003:] So titanium-coloured plastic for the back. [speaker001:] I I'll talk to the managers. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] No no no no. W Titanium stays there. [speaker001:] Titanium, I thi I think this this is this is e really good re remote. But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah this is good, [speaker004:] Osl [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] but it it's not good enough. [vocalsound] So we have to use the ditch the titanium, I'm afraid. [speaker001:] Ah those [gap] those account managers, what do th d what do they know? [speaker002:] Well [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Come on. Riot. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] What do we [disfmarker] Well what do we know? All we want is a is a fancy design but we don't really consider the costs. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yes, yes. [speaker002:] No because we did not know anything about it. [speaker004:] If you don't have the money, you can't make it. [speaker003:] Yeah al alright, yeah. [speaker001:] One and a half Euros. Hmm? [speaker003:] But we have to deal with it now. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So s If you don't have the money, you can't make it. So this is too expensive. [speaker001:] So? [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So we have to make it cheaper. [speaker003:] Titanium gone and add plastic. [speaker004:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah, but then we've got money left. [speaker003:] And on plastic times two and then we uh are there? [speaker001:] Well, no it's just uh all plastic. [speaker003:] No [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well alright. Huh. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No yeah well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Oh six. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It's just free, man. [speaker003:] A lot of plastic, yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Four. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No two for the to make it clear. [speaker001:] But then we can add the special colour? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] As we have money over uh left. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. W [speaker001:] And we still have money left. What do we want, guys? [speaker003:] I want gold plating. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah right. [speaker003:] No no um [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I want chrome. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well I think uh the case is double curved then. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We have we have to uh fill [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because you y have that curve and you have that curve. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Well, th that that is the problem. [speaker001:] Y Oh no. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] W we ha [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah well uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker003:] No no no, but th that's not f um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Safe. [speaker002:] Well y we have curves in all directions. [speaker003:] Well you can you can double curve, if you don't have titanium. And that we dropped, so it it can be done. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] alright. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But it's pretty funny. We we do want to reach twelve point five. But it isn't bad to to to stay at eleven. [speaker001:] Finance? [speaker002:] I mean, this this ain't titanium, but it looks like it. [speaker003:] We get more salary, if we make if cheaper than twelve uh twelve and a half. [speaker001:] Well, guys? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Guys? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We have to dump our titanium, [speaker004:] Shoot. [speaker001:] and we'll hate the managers for that, but now we're going to evaluate our project, of uh project, [speaker003:] Objection. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Pro project. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] project. [vocalsound] Well, [vocalsound] satisfaction on for example, are we satisfactory about our creativity? [speaker003:] Well I can't get no satisfaction, but uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I think it's uh [disfmarker] Well in in if we consider the costs then this is the best, yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think it's terrible that we got uh those costs at the last moment. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, me too. [speaker001:] That's really bad. [speaker003:] Its it's uh ridiculous actually, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But that that that's that, yeah that's a reason, [speaker002:] And uh unrealistic. [speaker001:] but also for our creativity. We had um nice design, and then you get the cost, and you had to dump all your creativity. [speaker002:] Well we we we used our creativity, [speaker004:] Right. [speaker002:] but we just had to adapt it to the costs. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Which isn't very practical, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] but [vocalsound] that's the way. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Nei. Uh no. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. Well, alright. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh leadership [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Terrible. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] next. Uh teamwork? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Leadership. [speaker002:] Leadership? Well [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Well it's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] It was very democratic. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh yeah well [vocalsound] I think so also. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] I al I I've uh filled that in in a the questionnaires uh each time, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well the managers were terrible. So, with their all their useless requirements. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] But o alright, the teamwork? [speaker003:] Well uh they they didn't think of the requirements. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It's the requirements of the user, uh I guess. [speaker001:] No they said, oh we won't d uh we won't uh use teletext, uh we won't use the DVD. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Yeah but they base that on on the user specifications. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Alright, teamwork? [speaker004:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well great I think. [speaker002:] Right yeah. [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah, think so too. [speaker001:] Uh well what do you, what did you think about the SMARTboard? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] It was a complete disaster. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I don't like it. Yeah? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No [disfmarker] Uh it it it uh it is uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No, that's a SMARTboard, and that's a digital pen. [speaker001:] It's also a It's both the SMARTboards. [speaker002:] Or not? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] No it's other way around. That's the SMARTboard. That's the digital panel. [speaker001:] I liked this SMARTboard, [speaker004:] This this this isn't a SMARTboard, right? [speaker001:] but I hated that one. Well it's both a SMARTboard. [speaker003:] That's that's the smart [speaker004:] Yeah right. B but you [disfmarker] This is just a large t large television. [speaker002:] Oh they're both SMARTboards. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No. [speaker004:] You u you use the [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] A televi Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It's both a SMARTboard, but this one is used for a desktop, and that one is used to to draw. [speaker004:] Yeah, but you ca This is just a beamer function. And here, on this one, you can uh draw the pictures and things like that. But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, wi w which one did you like? [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Left or right? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] That one. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] That one. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] That one isn't accurate. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It just doesn't work. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You can [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But I I think this is meant by the digital pen. [speaker001:] Yes. Th that is so. [speaker004:] Yeah, but I think there's a big distinction between the [vocalsound] these th [speaker003:] Well I didn't use uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We're now talking about the SMARTboards. [speaker004:] I don't need a SMARTboard. [speaker003:] Nei It it's much m [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [gap] Well we we used that one, [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker002:] and we needed it. I think. [speaker004:] but [vocalsound] give me a beamer. That's uh that's much uh much cheaper. [speaker002:] Yeah alright, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Or install a laptop to a beamer, or have this one standing here in an [disfmarker] I I like it. [speaker004:] Right. [speaker002:] Yeah I like that one, [speaker001:] Okay, alright. [speaker002:] but that one is terrible. [speaker003:] But uh you can uh [disfmarker] I I sent it about three times now. Uh [vocalsound] a green uh board with uh chalk is much more useful than that thing. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, it is. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] The simple uh sch school board. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I agree. [speaker001:] And uh the digi the digital pen? Did uh did you like that one? [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] I I didn't use it. I wrote things down but I didn't import it into my laptop. [speaker001:] I used it uh just to check it out, but uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] That's the [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You you can't send that to anyone, [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] because you you've scrabbled something on a page for yourself, [speaker004:] It isn't practical. Right. [speaker001:] and then you're going to send it, yeah. Well, no. [speaker003:] W [vocalsound] But also y you write things down. And i you can also bring your your your note block. [speaker004:] Your notepad. Yeah. [speaker003:] So what's the what's the th what's the point of importing it into [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's, no, it it's useless. [speaker002:] Well I I drew this. [gap] Mm. And I made a mistake. But it it would have been uh useful, if I I could show this on the screen. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah alright. For drawings, [speaker001:] For drawings, yes. [speaker003:] but not for personal notes. [speaker002:] Yeah for drawings. [speaker003:] I think that's not very [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [gap] N notes mm. [speaker003:] Uh I mean [vocalsound] you can bring your paperwork along and p Well of course if you have a lot of paper [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, it might be useful for drawings. I I agree on that. [speaker003:] If you've [disfmarker] If you've [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] But for notes, it i you you have to put that in a strict [disfmarker] Uh you have to put a name, standard date, and all those things. And notes uh for a meeting are very strict. So if you uh were to write them down for yourself, and then put that in your computer, you still have to type it over to Word. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, right. [speaker001:] So it doesn't d doesn't have any [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] That Stefan use. [speaker003:] Yeah I understand. But I think uh d this option is only useful if you've got a lot of paperwork. [vocalsound] You can't [disfmarker] It's not very uh ni [speaker004:] No, I don't think so. [speaker003:] Yeah well a lot of documents are [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker004:] It's it's only useful if you have to draw something. [speaker002:] Yeah. But then uh it's really useful, I think. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yep. Alright. [speaker003:] Mu Yeah right. [speaker001:] Um etcetera? Well uh the laptops? [speaker004:] Yeah, great. Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Of course great. [speaker002:] Yeah. Hmm. [speaker003:] Can we keep them? Uh. [speaker001:] Yeah. You can. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] B by my [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Wireless uh wireless things. [speaker002:] Thanks Project Manager. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Other uh things we used here? I hated the cameras, I hated the microphones. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Well these chairs, man. [vocalsound] Really great. [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] No [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well did you really uh [disfmarker] Did you really take uh take those in account? [vocalsound] I [vocalsound] half of time I didn't notice they were there. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No. No. I haven't looked w one time directly at the camera. [vocalsound] I don't care about it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But we shouldn't talk about that. [speaker002:] Well I did. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Because [vocalsound] this is a realistic environment. [speaker001:] Well w why not? Uh etcetera [gap] [disfmarker] We [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] Right. Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] N new ideas found? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] What kind of ideas for n a future schedule [vocalsound] [disfmarker] What? [vocalsound] For future um meetings [vocalsound] you have got? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well I missed uh the option to uh to email, [speaker004:] Communicate in between. [speaker002:] yeah. Email or chat or something. [speaker004:] Yeah, right. Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But yeah. W well th that's just the the environment they set us up f with. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Chatting and emailing. [speaker002:] Yeah alright, but that's one n new idea. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker001:] Well, new ideas found by this. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Not. Nothing. [speaker004:] Well, more more information in the beginning. [speaker001:] We don't want this. We hate this. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] That's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Digital pen is useless. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No it isn't. [speaker001:] Yeah, for drawings. [speaker003:] Well, for drawing for drawings. Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. So it isn't useless. [speaker001:] But uh two t But uh th then you have to have a lot of drawings, because if I had a company and I'm going to uh buy those expensive huge expensive uh things, I and I have to w pay those uh papers uh that are expensive, I'm not going to uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] For people who uh sketch th the whole day, I can imagine that it's useful. [speaker003:] No [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well th then still they they they should have a a nice graphics programme on the laptop. [speaker003:] But it's still an expensive uh expensive [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Because this is huge [speaker004:] Well [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] uh this v very very uh expensive paper. [speaker002:] Well you you can't you can't draw on a laptop like you like you paint of or draw with your hand. [speaker004:] Yeah, I agree. [speaker002:] With the mouse it is [disfmarker] No. [gap] [speaker003:] But if w Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well and if [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mouse is ju just isn't working if you're sketching. [speaker002:] Uh indeed. [speaker003:] And but what if uh maybe this this board uh SMARTboard is malfunctioning or someone. But suppose it was working correctly, what uh would it be useful then, if it wasn't off all the time? [vocalsound] A [speaker001:] Well no. I hated to draw like that. You you can't draw anything uh neat. [speaker003:] Really? [speaker004:] Yeah, but he's saying if it is correct, and you can draw very, [vocalsound] yeah, very precise [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Anything you want. Any b b Yeah. L li li [speaker001:] I if it if it would be perfect following. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well th th then still it's it's it's very expensive uh towards a a just a green [gap] uh [gap] school board. [speaker003:] Well it isn't, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, mu [speaker003:] but maybe that thing is uh is [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Yeah, board, a school board, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, but but then you can uh save it in instantly, and and and re-use it, and uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] I it has [disfmarker] It is useful. Yeah. [speaker004:] It saves time. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] This uh if it works correct, maybe this thing this thing is just malfunctioning. So uh if we get in uh if we get another one [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and you make sure it does work, [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] I think then it's pretty useful. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Because uh yeah you can draw t things quickly and uh clearly for anyone uh in the discussion room. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And then you can save it immediately. [speaker001:] Well, they are now. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Celebration. [speaker001:] It is. So, congratulations crew. [speaker003:] Did you type that? [speaker002:] Hmm. Celebration. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Se [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, we can go to the bar and uh with our [vocalsound] newly earned money. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Finally my beer. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well, that's it I think. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Um I don't know how long we still have. [vocalsound] I dunno how long uh we had for this last meeting. But uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Maybe till four o'clock or something? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well dunno. Yeah. [speaker001:] Well yeah, it is a bit uh [disfmarker] Well we still have to make the end report and uh all those things. [gap] I have to do that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] You better get started. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I [disfmarker] Di did you um save this one in the folder? [speaker002:] Oh. No. No no no no. [speaker001:] Can you do that? [speaker003:] No we must save this thing, yeah. In the shared map map. [speaker002:] But Nils you've got some work left. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I don't know what you have to do. [speaker003:] Map, is it a good word? The folder, yeah. [speaker004:] Huh. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I have to go to a physiotherapy. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh it worked. Two times quick. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Wow. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh, alright. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Cool. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So it is useful, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] It is handy. [speaker004:] Oh great, man. [speaker003:] No but uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] This is nice. [speaker004:] I'm gonna buy one buy one for my bedroom. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [gap] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Radical. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] D design. [speaker003:] Do you believe it yourself? [speaker001:] S Oh. He saved them all ten. Well alright. Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well they they wanted everything we produced, so [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] They also want to see my cat and his rabbit, and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] My big bird. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Your big beautiful bird. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Where is this [gap]? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Maybe the pen is just uh uh broken and the board isn't. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Of or the other way around uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Maybe you are broken. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah I think so too. [speaker004:] You know. [speaker002:] I think you have we have to make clear to her that we are ready. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I think she's listening. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I also think so. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Who is she you're talking about? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] She already knows. [speaker003:] Oh you mean our uh coach, our f personal coach. [speaker001:] She? Big brother. Our manager. [speaker003:] Is she also our accountant? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Is she responsible for sending that information so late? Oh. [speaker001:] I don't think so. [speaker002:] Close your laptop. [speaker003:] Because then we have to confront her with our [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So she can see we're ready. [speaker004:] I feel watched. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Yeah. Let's take this remote into uh production. [speaker001:] We put the fashion in electronics, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] but we couldn't because of the costs. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker001:] That that's the title of our uh end document. [speaker003:] That that's our new slogan. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I like that. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] We couldn't put the fashion into the electronics. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Blame our accountants. [speaker004:] Do that. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that's a nice title. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But we couldn't, yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Very catching. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] Well I th Yeah. [speaker004:] I'm sure management would like that. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] She's on the move. [speaker001:] I'm going to resign after this project anyway, so [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh, that's just great. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound]

[speaker003:] Did you manage? [speaker004:] Yeah, sh not quite. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You will see uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Ah. [vocalsound] Hello. [speaker001:] Hello. So, are you d what were j you guys discussing? [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, just uh ask if if he could manage. [speaker004:] Woah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. Did you find anything new? [speaker004:] Mm uh nothing special. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] I have a lot of new information. [speaker004:] Yeah, the [disfmarker] for uh the trendy uh stuff. A little bit. [speaker001:] Great, great. Come on. [gap]. [speaker004:] I uh now will show it. [speaker003:] Hey, everything alright. [speaker002:] Well, I had just a little bit of time, [speaker003:] Did you manage? [speaker002:] so [disfmarker] [vocalsound] I hope it's something uh we can work with. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] What's [disfmarker] uh here. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, I had the same. It just uh shuts itself down [speaker003:] Do you have a lot of new information? [speaker004:] and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Hmm? [speaker003:] Do you have a lot of new information? [speaker002:] Well, I heard that there was a new uh [vocalsound] component [disfmarker] speech recognition component, [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker002:] which was pretty much up to standard, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] That's true. [speaker001:] And there we are. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Huh. [speaker002:] so we might use that [disfmarker] I put that in my drawing, but again I didn't not have that much time. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Alright. I have a lot of new information. [speaker001:] What the f oh, yeah uh. [speaker003:] I have a complete list of uh everything that we can use, all the components that all av available. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It doesn't do what I want it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay, [speaker003:] I have no [disfmarker] [speaker002:] that's just super. Let me just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I still don't have any finance information, but at least we have a lot more to go on now [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker002:] [gap] uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay fine, that's too bad. [speaker002:] You need to start it up first? [speaker001:] Yeah, I have to start our [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] 'Kay. Okay, go again. Well second phase, conceptual design. It's fine, everybody knows what we're talking about. So, [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker001:] take you past the minutes of last meeting again. Again you get your three presentate to see what you came up with. So too bad we don't have any finance information apparently. So that's too bad. So then we'll just have to d uh have to go on, you know, the information that we have to make the [disfmarker] make final decisions on uh on a conceptual design. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Here we go. Anyway, last w last w what discussed last time, you all remember that, that we have to keep the electronics size in mind. Same goes for you. We have to have an easy design with big buttons which are durable and there are people actually spen willing to spend money to do [disfmarker] to get more features and uh among those features LCD screen and voice recognition are very popular. So we have to make a move on that area, I guess. S especially s when when the new uh component is applicable in our uh product, we'll be fine. Anyways, well teletext wasn't important [disfmarker] and that's [gap] what I took. And the consumer, yeah, we aim for young consumers, so that's fine. And well actually we [disfmarker] yeah, we did need some more data on finances, but w yeah we still don't have that apparently. [speaker004:] Mm uh-huh. [speaker001:] That's too bad. Yeah, we need to im de we are going to implement the beep and the flash thing to recover your remote. So [disfmarker] one of these interchangeable covers apparently which will make it a more fashionable product. So [disfmarker] [gap] anyway. Guess we'll have to do this after the after the [disfmarker] you give your presentations. So I'll just close this one now, and let's [disfmarker] uh let's see, [gap]. [speaker002:] Okay, [speaker004:] I bet [disfmarker] [speaker002:] what t [speaker001:] We have a lot to tell. You had a lot to go on. So uh how about you go first. [speaker003:] Yep, that's right. [speaker002:] Okay, yeah. [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Let's see where my presentation is. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay, um this I mentioned before. Every feature for our remote control needs [gap] [disfmarker] to have their own operating electronic devices. We need to take care of that. Then warning, uh there has to be a chip in our remote control. And the chip requirements uh needed for a normal button uh is just a simple chip, uh scroll-wheel, [gap] and LCD is an advanced. Of course this is more expensive than this. So we have to decide on that in a minute. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] The available uh components for energy are, we have a basic battery, a hand an uh dynamo, like in uh old torches. We have a kin uh kinetic provision, then you have to shake the remote control to get the energy. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And we have solar cells. [vocalsound] I suggest that we uh decide on that one uh immediately. Then I have all lists. So [disfmarker] My personal uh fav favourite is the kinetic provision [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] because uh I ha [speaker001:] Does it provide enough energy? [speaker003:] I think so, yes. [speaker001:] Also if if we were choose the the LCD option, would it give enough energy [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yes. Yes. [speaker001:] Okay, that's [disfmarker] the [disfmarker] just assume it takes [gap]. [speaker003:] Because I had the information uh you take uh the remote control, you pick it up at least two times a day. So then it's already shaken and gives energy. [speaker001:] Well, I'm not sure if it's shaken enough, [speaker002:] Is that enough? [speaker003:] [gap]. Or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because I don't really see people shaking their remote control before using it. [speaker001:] No, I don't think so, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] because uh watches can go on kinetic energy [speaker003:] Think [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because they move all the time. But I'm sure t I mean remotes lie still I think like ninety nine percent of the time. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] So I don't think that's a really good [disfmarker] the other alternative were solar cells. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I don't think that's applicable [speaker003:] Other options are solar cells, hand dynamo and basic battery. [speaker001:] because [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] I thin why [speaker002:] And what does the hand dynamo [disfmarker] [speaker001:] why shouldn't we take a basic battery? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] oh, sorry. [speaker004:] A rechargeable maybe. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Only basic battery? Okay, [speaker001:] Why not? [speaker003:] but I think this is not a r [speaker004:] Re rechargeable basi [speaker001:] I mean everybody everybody knows how to use that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker001:] It's it's common. So [disfmarker] and it's available everywhere. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So why sh mm I think [gap] better. [speaker003:] Yeah, but I think this rules out our unit [disfmarker] our rechargeable unit. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] This is really [disfmarker] a really basic battery, a normal battery. [speaker001:] Yeah, but it's [disfmarker] Yeah, uh it wasn't it wasn't in the options, a rechargeable m module actually. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker003:] Huh? Okay, that's uh [disfmarker] [gap]. Okay? [speaker001:] Okay yeah, [speaker004:] Yep. Basic. [speaker001:] b you c of course you could place re re-chargeable batteries. But that's up to the consumer himself. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, but then we don't offer a re-chargement function. That's what it says. [speaker001:] Well, mm it's not in the list. So we cannot choose from it. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Exactly. [speaker001:] Okay, will just take regular batteries. [speaker003:] Alright. Right. Yep. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] Next one is curving. Uh we can make a model that has one curve, two or three. And uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Curves being? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] uh th uh the shape. Of course uh the more curves the more expensive. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Of the remote control itself, [speaker003:] Exactly. Yes. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] But [disfmarker] It dep But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] okay. I was thinking along the line of one curve. I'll show that in my design. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Okay, we'll get back on that later. [speaker002:] So we'll get back to that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. I think one curve is uh fine. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But what were the implications if you [disfmarker] if put more curves it [disfmarker] it's gets more expensive. [speaker004:] Depends on the user. [speaker003:] More expensive. [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker003:] More difficult to make. [speaker001:] so I think with with the extras that we had there it's two curves I suppose. [speaker003:] Exactly. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] And I believe even that the r the number of options we have on putting things in it uh goes down with [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Also decreases, okay. [speaker003:] exactly. [vocalsound] Material. I have to offer a plastic, rubber, wood or titanium. Uh if we choose plastic, we cannot choose solar cells for energy. If we choose titanium, uh we cannot use more than one curve. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] But we don't have that so fast. [speaker001:] More than one curve, uh yeah okay. [speaker002:] Okay, I t [speaker001:] We'll just go uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I'd go for plastic because I have a couple of curves in my design. [speaker001:] 'Cause it [disfmarker] yeah, I'm not sure. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Well, g let's just get back to that. [speaker001:] We'll discuss that later. Okay, we have [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so I think we can rule out um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] I'm not sure we can rule anything out. We'll do that when y when you get your design. [speaker003:] No. But I think wood is not an option either. [speaker002:] No, wood's not an option. No. [speaker001:] No, wood i wood's not an option. Well [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] it [disfmarker] it's stylish, but we can [disfmarker] yeah, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] but you can change your covers anyway. [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] Okay. My personal thought was uh rubber because I had an email, I believe it was from you, uh f against falling. [speaker001:] Yeah, is it [disfmarker] keep in mind that it [disfmarker] it's it's [disfmarker] uh it fal uh remote controls fall a lot on the ground. [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So you don't want it to break. So either have rubber edges [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] or [disfmarker] a rubber remote control is very durable. [speaker003:] Okay. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Continue. [speaker002:] but it doesn't have to be unbreakable, [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] because we do need to keep selling these thing [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Don't have to be un-breakable, it's p it's a [disfmarker] it's not supposed to ju yeah, break after one use. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Okay, well [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean it [disfmarker] they [speaker002:] that [disfmarker] that's definitely true. [speaker001:] they fall a lot. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. I think we have to decide on this anyway. Uh because if we make removeable covers, it has to be one of those mat materials. We have no more than this. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] well, ru will rubber actually protect the remote control itself? Because it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, you have for [disfmarker] if you [disfmarker] if for example if you take hard plastic. If it falls it might crack. And rubber uh kind of softens the fall. [speaker002:] Yeah, but then you buy a new cover. But rubber [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm not sure if it's the it's the entire cover you change. Uh, it's could be. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Are are we focussi [disfmarker] focussing on on the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You know what, th we're focusing very much on the covers now. I think it's just w now we're going for the basic design. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] But [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If we wanna expand our options, f be fashionable, then we can get changeable covers. But I think the basic thing [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] let's just rule out wood for now and continue. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Not that but are we focussing on the uh younger people or the elder people? [speaker001:] We're definitely focussing on the younger people, [speaker004:] Younger, okay. Yeah, that's okay. Nah, that's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] 'cause that was our main goal. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Alright. Then I proceed, but I need to know after this meeting. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay okay, we will. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Interface, uh I have four things to offer, pu uh normal push-buttons of course. Um uh we have a lot of expertise on that one. We have a large history, our company, on push-buttons. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Scroll-wheels, uh those can be pushed as well, although that is more expensive. Um liquid crystal colour display and um [disfmarker] What is this? Okay, and if we use rubber, I already mentioned that, we can only use rubber buttons. So rubber can only match with rubber. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Which one of those are we gonna use? [speaker001:] Evident. Yeah, o of course we're gonna use. But I didn't I didn't go on the thought of a scroll-wheel actually. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker002:] of cour [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm still deciding on what what what could you use it for. [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] Maybe for volume control. [speaker003:] I think the channels. [speaker001:] Channel, I think that would be annoying [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker001:] because it might accidentally scroll onto another channel. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think a push-button for channel would be better. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker001:] I mean it [disfmarker] for volume control it's it's a smoother motion, [speaker003:] Huh? Huh. [speaker001:] you can just increase or decrease. But not sure. For channels will be good. [speaker003:] Hmm. But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, but there is a [disfmarker] is it really necessary 'cause a normal push-button can do that job. [speaker001:] I don't think so. I haven't I haven't taken it into consideration. [speaker003:] Huh? Oh. Ah so [speaker004:] But th the younger people [disfmarker] [speaker003:] but it looks cool. [speaker001:] I don't think we really need one. [speaker003:] Mm no. [speaker004:] my investigation turns out that the younger people want a little bit uh material that that is uh spongy [speaker003:] Oh. Ah. flashy and [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker004:] and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker003:] I think would be cool, scroll-wheel. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] A sc [speaker003:] It's not that much [disfmarker] uh if we take a normal scroll-wheel without the pushing, then it's not expensive. We can do that. Think. [speaker001:] But why do we need it? [speaker002:] Yeah, but why would we use it? [speaker003:] Ah we don't need it, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but it's [disfmarker] uh it's design [disfmarker] a design thing. [speaker001:] If we don't need it, why put it in your why put it in your in your [disfmarker] if it's if it's not something people are looking for or is useful. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, you get [disfmarker] [vocalsound] No. [speaker003:] I think they are looking for that. Of course we have uh a young target group. [speaker001:] Are they? [speaker003:] So they might find that attractive in a remote con [speaker004:] Scroll-wheel? Uh I don't know. [speaker001:] Yeah, but if it's if it's not useful, I don't think it I don't think it gives an extra function to the remote. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's it. [speaker001:] Anyway [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. So push-buttons we will use. Uh LCD screen? [speaker002:] Perhaps. I have t I have two different [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Is that s [speaker001:] What you [disfmarker] what [disfmarker] what'd you get on the LCD screen? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Is it expensive? Does it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh I only know that if we are using that, we need ano uh an advanced chip in it. And that is more expensive. [speaker001:] And how much more expensive is that? [speaker003:] I have no idea. I have no absolute numbers. [speaker001:] Or [disfmarker] No absolute numbers, [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] I only have [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] but it's just more expensive and takes more room I suppose in your in your design. [speaker003:] Yeah, but I don't think room is really an issue. [speaker001:] Don't think it's an issue, okay. Oh let's go for [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] let's say because it is uh very hot in n our target group I think, we should take it take it t to consideration to build an LCD screen in it. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker002:] I have two designs, one including uh [vocalsound] an LCD screen, wh which is basically the deluxe edition. [speaker004:] For the future. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And then I also have a standard edition, which wi we can also choose to develop too. [speaker001:] Which basically has the same functionality, but lacks the LCD screen. [speaker004:] Yep [speaker002:] Exactly. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] But we'll [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We'll pick a [disfmarker] we'll pick from uh [disfmarker] we'll just combine everything later. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Okay. Electronics, uh the first one is the chip. Uh that's no longer an option, it has to be an advanced one now. 'Cause we have the LCD screen. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] Then we have an infrared sender, I think that's basic, we cannot do without. [speaker002:] Basically, [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Otherwise it's not s a remote control. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] And we have the sample sensor and speaker, the voice recognition thing. Are we gonna do that or not? [speaker001:] Once again I was [disfmarker] would ask you if it's expensive, [speaker002:] Oh, I got [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but apparently you don't have any data. [speaker003:] I only have uh uh relative information. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Well what d what was exact what you got on the on the new component? [speaker002:] I got an email that it's relatively small. [speaker001:] That's small. So we can implement it. [speaker002:] Yes, let me just [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Get back. [speaker001:] So why why [disfmarker] if it's small and we can imp why shouldn't we? [speaker003:] Oh how did you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And there's um [disfmarker] [gap] get your mar marketing report? [speaker003:] That goes also for the scroll-wheel, by the way. [speaker001:] What was uh the last number of how many people were interested in voice recognition? [speaker004:] Um uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Although it's hard for different countries of course. [speaker004:] The most of them um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But you have to programme it yourself, I suppose, with your own voice. [speaker004:] Um uh more than uh sixty percent. [speaker001:] More than sixty percent of the people would like voice recognition. [speaker004:] Yeah. Mean of uh seventy percent I think. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Uh I'm [disfmarker] I have to look it up. [speaker001:] If it's small, if it's fits, if if people like it, why not? [speaker003:] Yeah. Hmm. But don't we have any w uh information about scroll-wheel? Scroll-wheel. If people would like that. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] No. No, [speaker003:] That's strange, because that's the same story. [speaker004:] only [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's it's not necessary like an LCD, [speaker004:] Ah. I don't know. [speaker003:] but it's just [disfmarker] it adds something to the design. [speaker001:] Yeah, but we got some data on people that actually are int [disfmarker] are interested in that, and I don't think a scroll-wheel offers new functionality, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] On the most spee [speaker001:] whereas speech recognition and LCD screen do offer new functionality in your product. [speaker003:] No [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh [gap] that's r [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But I think uh we now already have to uh implement uh an advanced chip. [speaker001:] Uh I think so, [speaker003:] So it's m [speaker001:] because if [disfmarker] I think we're specially w if you're going [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, for the future. [speaker001:] maybe uh if you have the two editions you wanna wanna give out, probably you have one with uh with speech recognition and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, they b they basically can have speech recognition. I mainly focused on the LCD uh aspect. [speaker001:] Um [disfmarker] Yeah, hold on a minute. Were were you [disfmarker] we're finished? Or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, but that's that's okay. [speaker001:] Oh. Because if there's something that [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] 'Cause you wanted to see them, [speaker003:] There is still time. [speaker001:] 'Cause have [disfmarker] [speaker002:] right? [speaker001:] did you have all the materials? Or everything that you desc [speaker003:] Yes, this was uh the last MS. I have a clear picture. [speaker001:] Okay, so uh just just go for design for now. Just m have a seat for a second. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We'll combine everything after this. [speaker002:] So this is basically the deluxe edition. [speaker001:] Why is it s why is it squared? [speaker002:] I j Why is it square? [speaker001:] Why did you pick square? Or uh not square, but why is it [gap] [disfmarker] yeah, sharp corners. [speaker002:] It [disfmarker] 'cause it's designy. It's basically [disfmarker] it has some futuristic [disfmarker] Potentially, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] yeah. I don't really know. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] But I just thought that uh in normal remote controls you have like smooth curves and this and that, [speaker004:] People [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Looks like a Star Trek phaser. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and this is something new, this is something different, something fresh. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It's true. [speaker002:] And basically what you can see here is that it has a little, yeah, let's say gap [speaker004:] Ri [speaker002:] which you can put your finger in. [speaker001:] Yeah. Or [disfmarker] Okay, so just [disfmarker] yeah, [speaker004:] So only r right-handed. [speaker001:] you can rest it on your finger. [speaker002:] So you can you can hold it really comfortable, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] that's basically the idea. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] But it [disfmarker] but it's only right-handed then. Not for the left. [speaker002:] Or left hand. [speaker001:] No, it just uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I doesn't really matter. [speaker001:] it's a curve inside a thing. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] As you can see, this is the remote control [speaker004:] Where? Wher [speaker001:] It's on the back. [speaker004:] Oh in the back, okay. [speaker002:] Uh you can't really see it that well, [speaker004:] Oh yeah yeah. [speaker002:] but this is the LCD screen. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So just imagine it goes that way. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think it's okay. [speaker004:] Oh yeah yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Then you can see you can hold it in your left or in your right hand. And I also made a quick image, 'cause I did not have that much time, of the standard edition [speaker004:] I thought it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] which has basically the keys are pretty much the same. [speaker001:] Keys are probably the n the number keys, I suppose. [speaker002:] Yeah. I had to do this really fast. So excuse me for the uh inconvenience here, [speaker001:] Okay. Well, [speaker002:] but as you can see, the keys moved. [speaker001:] you can work on the actual concept or actual design later with him. [speaker002:] Yeah. So these are basically the two types we have. [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So if we were to select the LCD screen, the transmitter here, you can see the light i [speaker001:] Well, I think what you have to keep in mind is that um you're moving the the the number keys from the top. Uh in the the simple design you have them at a top, and the uh complex design you have them at the bottom. So it would [disfmarker] that would give us a totally different design. So [disfmarker] which actually making a whole different product instead of two different models. I think it would be very expensive to produce two whole different products. [speaker002:] Well we can shift that. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But normally, as you can see there, we put the uh number buttons right on top. [vocalsound] Whereas because we had the LCD screen here, we had to move them downward, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, [gap] uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] so what you could say is that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] or for example, why did you pick the mm the numbers uh all the way below, and the and the channels and volume control [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because these are basically the functions you use the most. [speaker004:] Well it [disfmarker] it's [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] So if you hold it in your hand like this, you put your finger in the gap, this is the m most easy part. Bit. For zapping, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Hmm, I agree. [speaker001:] That's fine. That's fine. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] cau because people are zapping most of the time. [speaker001:] Just as long as you tak took it into consideration what people would prefer. Uh, okay if you all agree, I'm fine with it. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. So that's pretty much ha which I had in mind. As you can see here, this can be spaced for extra keys, which is the design thingys. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No it [disfmarker] maybe it's better to look uh what the people want. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker004:] So I can uh show my uh investigation. [speaker001:] I think we'll [disfmarker] I think we're going towards the deluxe edition anyway, because that seems to be what the people want. [speaker004:] Yeah, maybe it's better. [speaker001:] But let's see what's what they want now. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Especially for young people. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Um where is that [gap]? Where is th [speaker001:] That's mine. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, you should send it to the f to the folder first. [speaker004:] Yeah. Mm I forgot that. [speaker001:] Okay um, let's just assume we go to forty [gap] one. [speaker004:] Okay, now it must be there. Yeah, here it is. Oh yeah. Okay, uh the investigation turns out that the most appear [disfmarker] [vocalsound] uh people want um um uh look and feel likes is uh uh the s the same as before, but it must be w a little bit fancier than uh the the look of it. Um the second important thing is um the [disfmarker] it must be uh technol technological uh innova vative. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So that's the LCD screen is perfect, I think, and not uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Speech recognition. [speaker004:] Yeah, tha that's uh very important. And a third thing is [vocalsound] um [disfmarker] yeah, it's uh should be easy to use, so not not too much bu buttons and uh channel selection. I think that's uh [disfmarker] what you showed is uh perfect. And what the pe young people want [vocalsound] is uh [disfmarker] in Paris and and in Milan uh it showed out that the fruit and vegetables are uh are trendy. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Th they [disfmarker] you s you see it in the clothes and everything. And um the contrast uh of it, it must uh [disfmarker] the the buttons must a little bit spongy material. So uh rubber, I think uh th that's the best. [speaker003:] Hmm. No. Yeah, uh I agree. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Then rubber would be the best as a material indeed. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] I think so. [speaker004:] So we are uh [disfmarker] we were focussing uh on the younger people. [speaker002:] If that is the uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, agreement. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] So the elder, yeah, they wanted a little bit of wood in it and uh that's uh th that's not uh important now. [speaker001:] Okay, so we're definitely going for rubber. [speaker002:] It could be a c it could be a cover. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But [vocalsound] it's not. [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Our focus is the young audience. [speaker001:] Let's just go [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So let's stick to that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker004:] 'Cause uh n I I I I thought uh it makes a young uh classic remote with uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Nah, I think we're [disfmarker] in this case you're losing the the focus on the young group, [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker001:] because we're [disfmarker] that's what we're focussing on. [speaker004:] that's why I I d uh decided [disfmarker] With a fruit uh cover ov or something like that. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So I think the spongy feel gives us rubber. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah, apparently [disfmarker] yeah, maybe also [disfmarker] yeah, I tend to disagree with with uh with a sharp form. I suppose it basi if you're uh saying fruits and vegetables, maybe it's supposed to be a little little more round. [speaker004:] [gap]. Yeah, in in form of an uh vegetable or an uh fruit, maybe. [speaker001:] Yeah, for exa maybe like uh like a pear or something. [speaker002:] Yeah, but that's just more a se a seasonal, a trend thing. [speaker004:] And [disfmarker] Oh, where is your [disfmarker] [speaker003:] That's true. [speaker001:] That's what we're doing. [speaker002:] The idea now is is is that you can uh put a cover on it, for example, with fruit, like a shape or whatever. [speaker004:] A trendy [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I think shape is is important, [speaker002:] But not [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Here he here you can put a [disfmarker] [speaker002:] 'cause a n next year it will [disfmarker] it'll be something completely different. [speaker001:] because they s they really extend. [speaker003:] Hmm. Oh, that's true. [speaker002:] And then you have your apple-shaped remote control, which is not trendy anymore. So I think that's more something you can focus [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, but now you have your your [disfmarker] like your Star Trek phaser thing shaped control. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So I I th the edges are really really sharp. [speaker002:] Well, you can s [speaker004:] Uh maybe it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm uh not su [speaker002:] What you can do is smooth the edges indeed. But that will bring extra c expenses. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Or maybe just make it [disfmarker] make it up into into a low [disfmarker] a smooth curve instead of just [gap] less sharp twist on the outside. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] Yeah. All uh veg uh fruit and vegetables are round. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So it's better [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] I think I think there needs to be a little [disfmarker] I think it's too too sharp. The edges are too sharp. The bottom is fine of course if it's square. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But maybe just th make uh the top a little [disfmarker] round it off on the sides. So [disfmarker] I mean y [speaker003:] But I think, according to my information, this would be two curves. [speaker001:] That would be two curves. [speaker004:] Two? [speaker003:] We have one left and one right, and that disables [disfmarker] what was it again? [speaker004:] But it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's some it's something that we cannot do then. [speaker001:] One cur you could also make the curve go through of course. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] But that would make make the top round. [speaker002:] Well we've got we've got like one curve here. [speaker003:] Okay, that's not a problem. [speaker002:] For the gap. [speaker003:] That's only for the titanium. We don't have [gap]. [speaker004:] But it's that [disfmarker] that's for the comfort. [speaker002:] And we could have one here. [speaker004:] It's it's not for the trendy thing of it. [speaker002:] No, no no no no. What I'm just [disfmarker] 'cause you mentioned that more curves the more expensive, so I'm just taking that into account. [speaker004:] Yeah? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yes [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. [speaker001:] But let's see, titanium would give us only one curve. [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Then w yeah, but we don't have that. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] but we're not d we're not using titanium. [speaker003:] So we have [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So the [disfmarker] no. [speaker003:] We have no [gap]. [speaker002:] Well we picked rubber, right? [speaker001:] Right, we did. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But they uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We m [speaker002:] So basically what we can do is m make these edges a little bit less sharp. [speaker001:] Just doodle something on the board on the left. [speaker004:] [gap] form. [speaker002:] But the problem then is that it will start to resemble m the remote controls as we have them today. We were looking at something fresh, something trendy [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well actually, we're setting ourselves apart from [disfmarker] by technology alone actually. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So that [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] let's see what you're doing. [speaker003:] They th these wha are what they call the curves. This side, this side, this is how they count. [speaker001:] Oh, okay. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] I don't think like that. Not not really the curves on the on the side of the remote. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] No no. This is what they uh what they mean. [speaker002:] Okay, [speaker003:] Okay, that's not really a good [gap]. [speaker002:] so that's basically silly. [speaker001:] Okay, now I uh [disfmarker] of course now I understand why they have more uh like um [disfmarker] Why the curves [vocalsound] um decrease the the um [vocalsound] the size the electronics that can be inside. So [disfmarker] Okay. I don't think the outside would be called as a curve really. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It's like this. [speaker001:] I think it's for all the basic [disfmarker] well, looking from the side anyway. Well, if you see what [disfmarker] I have to come up with some designs fast anyway. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But you can make uh [disfmarker] if you want to use a fruit in uh in uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But isn't the f the fruit like a cover thing, [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] because we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, you shouldn't focus on the [disfmarker] mostly on the covers, [speaker004:] Hey, you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because lot of things we came up with, shouldn't be too [disfmarker] really too much [disfmarker] shouldn't be too focussed on the covers [speaker004:] You can make it like [disfmarker] Like this. [speaker001:] because it's kind of an idea of our own, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] No, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but we're not sure if we can actually make that. [speaker002:] But if we put that directly into the design, we limit ourselves extremely. Because it [disfmarker] that's just for one seasonal trend. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] That's the one thing I'm also afraid of with this one [speaker004:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because it [disfmarker] the edges are really um [disfmarker] they might stick out on the on the side for example. [speaker004:] Oh. As a example. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If you have a basic design, a little m a little smaller on the on the s on the edges, you could put more covers on it, y one one with square or um sharp corners if you want to. [speaker004:] I d [speaker002:] Okay, so that's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] well, that's probabl [speaker001:] M just round it off a little, I guess, because [disfmarker] so we have more options I suppose. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] [gap], you'd just like it to go a little bit more like this. [speaker001:] I think so because it looks leaner and we should just go with that. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Anyway, you have all the time in the world to make to make the final design in a minute with him. [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] So we decided on what what did you guys wanna know again because this is um [disfmarker] anyway, I'll fire up my thing. So [disfmarker] so [speaker002:] Did you present e everything you wanted to? [speaker001:] we come to a decision. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] So I can uh qui [speaker001:] Uh what the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] oh. I can quickly make a conclusion of what we have decided so far. [speaker002:] Uh we still need to decide on a couple of things you you needed to know. [speaker001:] Ah. Yeah. Okay, anyway. Uh energy, we choose regular regular batteries. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] The chip is advanced because we have the advanced features. The case, it will be [disfmarker] the material will be rubber, suppose. Wouldn't the b the design we talked about. Uh user interface, type. [vocalsound] Well I think we took all the components separately what we want. Um let's see um supplements. I'm not sure what they mean by that. Anyway, um apparently you guys, you should work together on the final design, both on internal and external design. So [disfmarker] Yeah, you should you should probably find out how the product will fall into the market, how uh [disfmarker] what's gonna happen with the final design as we have it now. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Yeah, of course you've got your specific instruction as usual. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Wanna spend some more [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] um I think we're in a [disfmarker] pretty much in agreement actually, which is good. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Are we all in agreement about the, well, the primary structure of the [disfmarker] of my design? Except for the edges. Like the keys there. [speaker001:] Lef let's see, where the pen go? Here. Yeah uh open your thing again. Let's see what [disfmarker] if you can come up with anything new. Um I'll just do a next one. So what would give us your ne your design would be [disfmarker] the lights would be on top, right? Uh one on each one on each side. [speaker002:] Yeah. To create a kind of disco effect when you [disfmarker] That was basically what w [speaker001:] Is it is it the lights for for [vocalsound] finding the [disfmarker] finding remote [speaker002:] [gap] [disfmarker] Light for the finding of the remote. [speaker001:] or lights that it [disfmarker] that [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We can also use one light for showing that the signal is being sent. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, I think that should just be a simple LED or something. Like [disfmarker] [vocalsound] that that's not that important of course. It just [gap] like a matter of a [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [transformerror] a beep if you pre that you just know that that there's context. So I don't think that's super important. But [disfmarker] Hmm. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So we have the teletext we have here, we have the mute. [speaker001:] Uh sh Oh. [speaker002:] LCD screen. This is the on off button. [speaker004:] And speech w recognition. Are we [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Speech recognition, I [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We [disfmarker] Little uh voice uh [disfmarker] Record and a uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] where did I imagine. I did that pretty much over here, so that you could use it like this and speak to it. [speaker004:] no. [speaker002:] Then you have the uh extra keys for teletext, mute, two buttons which can be pretty much anything or nothing. We can also just not use them. [speaker001:] Let's see, I'll just make [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Main controls and a key-pad. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] One light here. And just make it red now. But it could be any colour. So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Will be fine. [speaker001:] Okay, whatever. Fine, anyway. What do we have here? M I'll make it [disfmarker] um are we gonna use square buttons or round ones actually? Personally I would prefer round ones. [speaker003:] Me too. [speaker002:] Yeah, but that would [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Form of fruit. [speaker002:] this was just in the design. [speaker004:] It's better. [speaker002:] Because if you [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] I had a square design. [speaker001:] for [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So I had square buttons. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] But in that case the round buttons would be more appropriate. [speaker001:] Okay, I assume it for [disfmarker] so we take a r take a round power button right here. [vocalsound] Whatever. Uh back to black. Uh not too big though. See this would be good. Um let's see. Are these for any extra controls? [speaker002:] Yeah. The left one is teletext [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and the right one is mute. And these two buttons are [disfmarker] or not necessary or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If we go for for round buttons in general, do we want to [disfmarker] the menu key in the middle to be round? For example, if you [disfmarker] let's see, put it [disfmarker] this here. I think we'll go with the triangles that [disfmarker] Come on. [speaker002:] Yeah, the triangles would be best indeed. [speaker001:] Triangles are good. Yeah, they're a little too big now. But [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Anyway, okay. So do you want for example a round button in the middle or square one? [speaker002:] I personally think that a round b button looks bit silly, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'm not sure uh, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I just just came up with it. This aligns nicely. So [disfmarker] Okay. We'll just take the take the round button, suppose. Uh oh the square button, sorry. [speaker002:] Does everybody agree on that? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker001:] I suppose so. [speaker003:] I would prefer round. But doesn't matter, doesn't matter. [speaker002:] You prefer a round? Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] That's not a big deal, think. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So there's our numbers. Think we need an extra button here of course for [disfmarker] yeah, like you had for the higher numbers. And you could include a button here for the mute, I suppose. For something else, just to mirror mirror the effect with this. [speaker002:] Yeah, you can. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But it but it's not necessary, becau [speaker001:] That's not necessary because it [disfmarker] you can take this away, but there [disfmarker] it looks like there's a hole there, just to mirror the effect. Okay, so we have a few [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We could put our logo there. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Nah, I think it it would be nice to put the logo here, for example, if you have some buttons here. We could put a logo here because it's very [disfmarker] always in your field of vision. If you're watching it, the LCD screen, blah blah. [speaker004:] And what about [disfmarker] Oh. What about a button for your uh favourite channel? [speaker002:] Oh that could be that b [speaker001:] Well we could we could include either here or here, for example. [speaker004:] Uh yeah. With the extra controls. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But you think here or here? [speaker002:] Well [speaker004:] Uh one one set [disfmarker] [speaker002:] now it's getting a little bit too crowded up there. [speaker001:] I know. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] Is your [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, you have to put it up uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So it can basically be the button down below or one of the four buttons up there. [speaker001:] No, we could put this one as favourite channel for exam [speaker002:] Because [disfmarker] [speaker004:] One of the four. Uh, it's better than, I think. [speaker001:] What are these for? [speaker002:] One of the four is better, I suppose. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] It's a favourite channel. [speaker001:] What? [speaker004:] What? Nee, uh one of the four uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because it's a little bit confusing to have twelve buttons down there, [speaker004:] It's better th [speaker002:] because you're only accustomed to eleven, I'd say. [speaker001:] You're accustomed to eleven? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] My uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] okay, have it your way. I mean, think this looks rather like like there's something missing for example. [speaker002:] Oh, we still need an okay button. [speaker001:] I mean why wouldn't you include a [disfmarker] 'cause there is a um a piece of electronics under there anyway. So why not give it a function. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] Let's say I mean could be anything. [speaker002:] Well, you could also shift the two buttons to be nicely aligned. [speaker001:] But [gap] th No, I don't think [disfmarker] because this is a zero. But you want zero to be mis-aligned with the rest. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Anyway, so this is the basic design, we wanna have um on and off [disfmarker] what are we missing? [speaker002:] Oh, [speaker001:] If it looks um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] we're pretty much missing an okay button, but we have a button up there which is still free. [speaker001:] Okay, so we want the remote to be the s the side view actually, [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] what I'm gonna draw. So [disfmarker] Um probably think you want the curve to be here. [speaker002:] Yeah, pretty much. [speaker001:] Just gonna be sh [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah. Want this straight or what? Let's keep it at this. So it would be like this. Do we want something interesting with it or [disfmarker] see. Would give us a light here. Maybe it's boring. You want it curved or what? Maybe you want [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, I think it looks better curved. [speaker001:] Should like this? [speaker002:] But that's probably uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Will give us design problem [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] because we have [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It can be curved. [speaker004:] Why? [speaker002:] It can be curved, because that [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] yeah, it's a little bit more trendy to be curved. [speaker001:] It can be curved. Okay? I think so. That's why I asked you. Okay. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I would curve the whole actually. [speaker002:] Hmm? [speaker003:] I would curve the whole. Like um [disfmarker] like it hangs over your hand a little bit. [speaker001:] Oh crap. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Then it will bounce and you don't drop it so easily. [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh. Anyway, so you want to [disfmarker] a little more like this? [speaker003:] Yeah, something like that, yes. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. [speaker001:] And just s s [speaker003:] Yes, exactly. [speaker001:] Stop the curve here or continue it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I think continue like that. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker003:] Then there's also enough room for the electronics. [speaker001:] So we have our LCD screen. Let's see. [speaker002:] But it pretty much looks like a banana already. [vocalsound] Uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] In [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Let's make it yellow then. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Perfect. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Bana it's banana vision. [speaker002:] It's fruit. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, it's perfect. [speaker001:] So you have your LCD screen right here, suppose. [vocalsound] Um that would make [disfmarker] We use the colours now. But [disfmarker] Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Maybe once we can make a special edition in according with Chiquita. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Have ourselves sponsored. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] You got sponsor, now you get a free one with every pack of Chiquita. [speaker003:] Uh but it's a good trade-off for them if they can have their logo on it. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So it would give the buttons here. [speaker002:] Or they can design their own cover. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. They might wanna be the first ones to uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We could set up a a marketing uh agreement. [speaker001:] I suppose I suppose we can put [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] um [disfmarker] let's see. Um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh, perhaps they can use it. Or give a special edition uh with with [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh I suppose we can put the batteries in here because it has the most space, for example. [speaker002:] Won't that be a problem with the LCD screen? [speaker001:] I don't think so because it's the biggest part of the [disfmarker] uh of the uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah, but the LCD screen probably needs [vocalsound] quite the chip. [speaker001:] Let's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I think this is possible. [speaker001:] I think it's possible. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker001:] I think it's the best place [disfmarker] yeah, you could also put 'em here. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] But [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It doesn't matter. You can actually uh place a chip for the LCD screen and [disfmarker] at the bottom, and and wire it. Doesn't matter. [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker002:] Okay, that's not a problem. Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] so we put the batteries here. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] That's fine. Yep. Blah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I think we get the idea. [speaker001:] Um, any other com what what are we missing here? Something [disfmarker] a speech recognition. Um where do we want the microphone, for example, to be? On the side or on the [disfmarker] or, for example, on top? Like here. [speaker004:] Top? [speaker002:] Oh, basically [speaker004:] W On there. [speaker002:] the idea that I had was it to be pretty much in combination with the transmitter. [speaker003:] I think on top. [speaker001:] To be [disfmarker] [speaker002:] 'Cause you can talk to it like this. [speaker001:] Okay, I w thought maybe it's either be here or [disfmarker] [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] because it's mi it might interfere with the transmitter, I'm not sure. But [disfmarker] 'Cause transmitter would be here. [speaker002:] Well, the email said it was a quite a small component. So I don't see that. [speaker001:] Why uh [disfmarker] once again, like you said, the component can be somewhere at the bottom while we wire the microphone up there. Anyway. [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] yeah, it could be [disfmarker] either be here or make a double microphone. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] I wouldn't mind. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It is, I believe, also able to talk. [speaker001:] It's able to talk to you. [speaker002:] It's a [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I have a sample uh sample sensor and the speaker sensor. [speaker001:] A speaker sensor. [speaker003:] Uh the speaker sensor we already have, but s I don't know what they exactly mean by a sample sensor. Could it talk back? Like uh g uh give confirmation or something. I think it can. I think if you have a a speech recognition component, then a s speaking component is not that hard to to put in either. [speaker002:] Well, the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I think so, it [disfmarker] I think it could. Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] I mean it could be a [disfmarker] all this stuff could be integrated into the LCD screen, which you could navigate with this, I suppose. Navigate through everything. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] If you have [disfmarker] I think you sh I think the advanced options should be [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, but do you actually need the remote talking back? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Yeah. [speaker001:] I think it sh the advanced option could also be integrated in the LCD screen, of course, because you don't have to have a button for everything. You can just navigate through th m your menu that you have here for advanced options with this. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] Think that would be fine. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] So that's w m would be making use of the LCD screen. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] We already have a sound component, by the way, for the beep. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Beep. [speaker003:] beep. [speaker002:] Beep. [speaker004:] Beep. [speaker001:] Um, so the flashing of the beep, we have well anything. We could [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Yeah, but you could put a speaker or something [gap] on on the side for example. [speaker002:] At the back, yeah. Like that. Or at the side. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] For [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Which is [gap]. [speaker001:] how do you draw that again? [vocalsound] Uh whatever, looks stupid. [speaker002:] So what's basically edi the editi idea, sorry, now? [speaker001:] I think this is pretty [disfmarker] [speaker002:] We need to stay here and work out that. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'm not sure. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I think you have to stay here [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker003:] I should be getting new information, I guess. [speaker001:] because we are supposed to [disfmarker] five minutes to finish the meeting. Oh, like my [disfmarker] the info that I got was that you're [disfmarker] uh we're gonna work on our own because you're gonna do the market market uh analysing [gap] [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker001:] I'm supposed to do the little work on the year-end report. So [disfmarker] the project report. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Hmm. Okay, I think we're [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, I suppose we'll [disfmarker] [speaker001:] everybody satisfied with the with the current design we have? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] So we're s supposed to be rubber. [speaker004:] Ah, that's fine. [speaker002:] Pretty much. [speaker001:] I think [disfmarker] well, I think the the remote control is gonna be black [speaker004:] Round. [speaker001:] because we we forgot to talk about [disfmarker] I mean the the company colours are important apparently. [speaker004:] Wh Why? [speaker001:] So we have the logo up there. [speaker003:] But we have any company logo. [speaker001:] So are we gonna [disfmarker] base colour is black? [speaker003:] We have [disfmarker] yes, but [disfmarker] and yellow. [speaker001:] And yeah, of course we could use yellow buttons or yellow navigation or whatever. [speaker003:] I would change I would take a yellow remote control. [speaker001:] Yellow but yellow control. It's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] To have it flashy, to have it [disfmarker] it's for young people. [speaker002:] Yeah, but when you use covers, it basically easier to have a n have a neutral colour on the base. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Need do be different. [speaker004:] It's the colour of a [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, don't don't stick yourself on the covers right now. But don't stick yourself on the cover because [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] No, we're designing the remote control now, but taking that into consideration, it's better to have a neutral base colour than to have a flashy [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But we need to be different. [speaker001:] Nah. Yeah, but the info. I think we should go with uh with the company colour [speaker004:] But, the you [speaker001:] because what specific info that I got from the project board. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So I think we should go with that. [speaker004:] The young people want uh a trendy uh remote control. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker001:] They want something trendy. [speaker004:] So colourful uh is [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Huh. It's either black cover with yellow buttons or vice versa. And I would say take a yellow cover and black buttons. [speaker002:] It is more trendy. That's definitely true. [speaker001:] I think we should [disfmarker] th [speaker003:] To be different. [speaker001:] then take it [disfmarker] take yellow. Take what you c yellow remote control. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So let's see if if we can do the LED onto it. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You have the basic colours, blue, green, red. [speaker001:] Uh oh [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah, we have so many colours already. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You know what? [speaker004:] Oh, it's okay. [speaker001:] I'm not gonna do this. [speaker003:] Oh no, that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] That's up to you guys. [speaker003:] I think it's good thing to be different than [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You doodle a [disfmarker] doodle us a nice nice design for for the next meeting, [speaker004:] Colourful, you you [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well [disfmarker] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] we'll be done. I think we're all happy now. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker003:] I still don't have my scroll-wheel though. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Stupid scroll-wheel. [speaker003:] Uh that's [gap] [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh, where would you like to put it? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Nah, that's true. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] 'Kay I'm not sure uh [disfmarker] I really, I'm no I have no clue what we could use the scroll-wheel for. [speaker002:] Uh you could use it for the channels and for the volume. [speaker003:] No, forget it. [speaker004:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] But it's [disfmarker] has no real added value. [speaker003:] No look, [speaker004:] You can [disfmarker] [speaker003:] it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It takes space, a lot of space. [speaker003:] No, that's not my point. [speaker001:] And it could [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's not because it's functional, but it's just to add to the design, to have it flashy. [speaker004:] Ah [speaker003:] It it has no function, I agree. I agree. [speaker004:] may [speaker002:] Yeah, but if it has no function, [speaker001:] I'm not sure [speaker002:] then [disfmarker] [speaker001:] if it [disfmarker] if it has no function, why even put it there? [speaker003:] Oh, so many things have no function, just design. [speaker001:] And th that's just so much things that make it look flash [speaker004:] But uh uh scroll for a channel s selection or volume [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] I think channel selection would be annoying [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Ma [speaker001:] because it just c you could scroll past the channel [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Let's vote on it. [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker003:] Then we don't have to talk about it any longer. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker003:] What do you want? In or out? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Basically out. I don't see the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. You are out of course. [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker003:] You are [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Out. [speaker003:] okay, clear. [speaker001:] No r no scroll-wheel. Okay. Um [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I don't see anything missing really. [vocalsound] Yeah, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Do you have all your answers? [speaker001:] we should [disfmarker] too bad we don't have the finance. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I have all my answers, yes. [speaker001:] We could've [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's [disfmarker] I'm not sure if we're if we're gonna get finance anyway because I thought we cou I thought it was gonna be an issue at the first time we started. [speaker004:] I have to call this in a form. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I thought it was gonna be a cost issue which material we were gonna take relative to the advanced chips or anything. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. There is [disfmarker] I have one question. [speaker001:] So you just do whatever you like [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] and uh doesn't care what it costs. [speaker003:] Hmm. I only have one question with the material, but I don't have information that. We've chosen rubber. [speaker001:] I think we're [disfmarker] rubber is not expensive. Definitely. [speaker003:] No, but can we make yellow rubber? I think so [speaker001:] You can make rubber in any colour. In any colour. [speaker002:] Yes, you can colour rubber, yeah. [speaker004:] Ah. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] I mean you can't make yellow titanium, but you can make yellow rubber. [speaker004:] But we ha w [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] we don't uh use our reco uh we uh [disfmarker] removable cover? [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Uh yeah [speaker004:] No, [speaker001:] we can make uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] huh? [speaker001:] for example it's just something you can click on it like uh [disfmarker] that's [disfmarker] but it's not som not [disfmarker] apparently that's not something we're working with in the basic design. [speaker004:] Maybe maybe later, [speaker001:] So [disfmarker]. [speaker004:] maybe we can uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah, it could be. It can be done, for e

[speaker001:] Can I close this? [speaker002:] Uh we don't have any changes, do we? So no. [speaker001:] Oh, okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] There we go. Okay, here we are again. Detailed design [disfmarker] oh, come on. Well [disfmarker] Ah [gap] s Forgot to insert the minutes, but it's about the same thing we discussed before. Uh [disfmarker] Could open that anyway, think. Other design [disfmarker] anyway, we took as [disfmarker] we took w we took rubber as as the material last time. We also [gap] that you're just busy with it. Took the advanced chip to t uh implement the advanced features. Well, we discussed the design, no sharp corners, we rounded it off, like you see on the [gap] other screen, which is fine. Um [gap] we agreed that the colour should be b uh yellow and black. Yellow in the back because it's m trendy, more trendy than black anyway. So [vocalsound] then we ca yeah. We agreed that we would implement both the LCD and speech recognition, but I'll get to that in a moment. 'Cause some changes in the finances have left us implications anyway. So so, [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] like I said, we had no insight in finances, no prices, but we have 'em now, and it's bad. Anyway. We are Oh. Prototype presentation, well first you guys built the prototype. So [vocalsound] you could [gap] [disfmarker] could present that. But um let's see what be handy to do. Nee [disfmarker] no, you just go ahead and present the [disfmarker] w we'll scrap it later because [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I think it's more or less the same as we had. [speaker001:] [gap] What? [speaker002:] It's basically what we agreed upon, [speaker004:] Hmm? [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] but just a little bit more specified. [speaker001:] that's [speaker003:] No much s [speaker001:] hasn't changed that much, huh? [speaker003:] No no no, not at all. [speaker001:] I didn't expect anyway [gap]. You just coloured it. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh s Final design. [vocalsound] Basically in [gap] [disfmarker] what we discussed, cover and buttons will be made of rubber, yellow colour, black components, as you can see right over here. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] We chose a different type of colour for the menu. A bit darker yellow [speaker001:] I like the menu. [speaker002:] so that it com really shows in this keypad. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] If you put them all black, it's not really that good a contrast. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And I suppose the the the yellow is not printed on the on the rubber. It's it's part of the rubber, I suppose. [speaker002:] Probab Yeah. [speaker001:] I think that's more I think that's more durable anyway than printed on to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] That's the be [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] And it [disfmarker] I guess it's more easier to just paint it on the rubber [speaker003:] Yeah, of course. [speaker002:] than to uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm yeah. [speaker003:] That's uh the integration story again. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So we have it's a bit round shaped, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] that's what we had uh [disfmarker] We chose the buttons to be uh teletext, okay button, favourite channel and the mute. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So that's basically what we chose there. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] If you have anything to add, please interrupt me. [speaker003:] No, uh this is just a description of what we see there. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Oh. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Speaks for itself. [speaker002:] That's pretty much it. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. Now it's my time to ruin everything. Well, not ruin everything, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Oh sorry. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] no, nah. Finances, that's what we have here, what you drew. We have battery power, we have advanced chips and the sam the sensor. The sample sensor and uh [disfmarker] for speak recognition anyway. So which [disfmarker] you see the [disfmarker] which is de o one of the most expensive parts. So [disfmarker] well, we have sin one curve, [vocalsound] a design. Rubber design. And we had a special colour. Suppose yellow is a special colour. So just half a Euro for [gap] [disfmarker] You have pushbuttons and an LCD display. You have the total of seventeen Euros in production cost, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] which is higher than the twelve and a half that we are permitted to use. So, [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] easy. What do we scrap. Well [speaker003:] I d [speaker001:] think I had the best solution that I came up with is just to s take out the speech recognition. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I'd say that too. [speaker001:] Because the LCD has more support on customer side. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] There are ninety one percent of uh the people, or something like that. But ninety percent who favour an LCD display, and only sixty percent that favour speech recognition. I think it's also harder to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh we don't really have a extra function with the speech sample, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] which you can't do with a normal remote control, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] which people already do. [speaker001:] [gap]. So I ju [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I took that out. So [disfmarker] and so it's still stuck with thirteen, so I had to take out the special colour I suppose. And, yeah I didn't see anything else I could take out. Yeah, [speaker004:] Pushbut [speaker001:] I could take out the push-buttons, but we need those. [speaker003:] Huh. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So, generally what I came up with, in order to be cou to to have production cost of twelve and a half Euros, spe scrap speech recognition [speaker004:] Special colour, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and the separate covers can account for the [disfmarker] if people want it, we'll just [disfmarker] then we'll do it in black. We'll just deliver it in black, have the [disfmarker] it has all the function that it's supposed to have, and if you want it [disfmarker] if you want the custom design, then you can buy the separate covers. You make it d orange or whatever you want. [speaker002:] Well, I'd [disfmarker] I tend to disagree with you on that, because the trend issue was a big issue when we started designing this. [speaker001:] It was a big issue, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So can't we just basically extend it to thirteen? [speaker001:] I'll just go back. Uh let's just [disfmarker] let's see what [disfmarker] okay, let's just see what we [disfmarker] no, we we have to be under twelve and a half. [speaker004:] Yeah, it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It [disfmarker] it's not [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The p [speaker001:] uh the project is a no-go if we go over twelve and a half, [speaker003:] Okay, but there's another problem. [speaker004:] And the p [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] so. [speaker003:] But there's another problem. [speaker004:] What [disfmarker] [speaker003:] If we take another cover, for instance black, then we also need another button frame, 'cause black and black doesn't work obviously. [speaker001:] I think you [disfmarker] that's what you were ass assigned to do really, to to see how b th both those work together. [speaker003:] Huh. Huh. Yeah. [speaker001:] So I think [disfmarker] yeah, it's [disfmarker] I think it's y one of the [disfmarker] it's a good way to um to help people uh to make [disfmarker] to keep the product trendy too. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] Just keep [disfmarker] you just make new covers for the [disfmarker] for it, [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] like we agreed before. [speaker003:] I agree. [speaker001:] And everything that's left is is the basic function that uh that we want our product to have. Because the expensive parts are in either the advanced chip. But we need that for the LCD display. [speaker002:] Yeah. We do. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Then again, we have the LCD display, which is also expensive. B yeah, but those go together. And yeah, we could take out the curve. [speaker003:] Or say let's lose rubber, take plastic. [speaker002:] We could take out a curve indeed. [speaker001:] Could [disfmarker] we could take out the curve. Is that an option? [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] For you? [speaker003:] Although we are demolishing a little bit the style. [speaker004:] But uh the [disfmarker] and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I think the colour is more important than the really the curve, [speaker003:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because if you just end up with an entirely black remote control [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think it's [disfmarker] it it does ruin it, [speaker004:] The people [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but the fact that I t took that decision or t [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Took this example actually, not really decision, but the example is because we do offer the um [vocalsound] the possibility of adding your own custom covers. So you can change [gap] any colour you want. So it's just you deliver a basic remote control with a possibility to change you into whatever you want. [speaker003:] Can we then not also uh change the material? We take plastic for the basic cover [speaker001:] You can take plastic, [speaker003:] and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but I d it's something that's stuck into my mind is that [disfmarker] something that really came forward from the marketing research is that people like the the the the squishy feeling of [disfmarker] the spongy feeling of the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Spongy, yeah. [speaker003:] We can put those to the to the other covers. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and it really makes it [disfmarker] also makes it different from the existing remote controls, [speaker004:] And [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because they're all plastic. [speaker003:] That's true. [speaker001:] So which in in turn [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Rubber would increase durability [speaker003:] But [disfmarker] okay. [speaker001:] because it doesn't break. [speaker003:] But what do you then suggest we'd lose? Because we have to lose two things and [disfmarker] I guess. [speaker001:] I al like I said, I lost the speech recognition and I lost the special colour, [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] which would make this black a black and grey. [speaker003:] Okay, and that's enough? [speaker001:] Yeah, that's that that that's enough, [speaker002:] So black and grey is okay. [speaker001:] because I guess those are the basic colours. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Oh. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Which we can fabricate, okay. [speaker004:] The people want to pay for for it, [speaker001:] I think those are basic col They want to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] so why why uh [vocalsound] do we have to keep us uh uh um on the twelve and a half? [speaker001:] To ensure the profit. That [disfmarker] that's th that's the order. We're just uh [disfmarker] we're the project team and we got our our orders from the pro from the boss of our company [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] which say we don't wanna spend more than twelve fifty for this. [speaker004:] But we can take a risk. [speaker001:] But that's not for our [disfmarker] that's not our decision to take. [speaker002:] No, we basically [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We have a budget of twelve fifty per product. [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] We need to stick to that. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] Stick that. I don't think it's really bad either. I mean if we we have the the backup of [disfmarker] or the backup design thing [speaker004:] I hope the people will like it, but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] to have [disfmarker] I think they would do. Th I think they do like because yo we [disfmarker] you [disfmarker] we agree upon that the that the the the cover thing was a nice idea, [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because p you could have all sort of designs while at the same time just manufacturing one product, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] one basic product which you could turn into any any taste you want. So I think it's the best solution to make those cu custom covers for the design aspect [speaker003:] Perhaps we should make m [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] and keep the functionality between [disfmarker] of [disfmarker] within the th the boundaries of the your f uh your budget. [speaker004:] The first sheet. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Perhaps we should make clear to our customer that we had to do this to stay under the cost. And that's [disfmarker] uh they know that this is an option and that we had to drop the option to stay under the cost, that they know that. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Well I don't think [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker003:] Perhaps they decide tha [speaker001:] Is it worth [disfmarker] is it is it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But they don't [disfmarker] [speaker001:] does it mean anything to the customer? Like, it [disfmarker] like, we don't care [disfmarker] we don't care that you had to [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Of course. Perhaps [gap] they uh [disfmarker] no, but perhaps they think uh okay, the cover is such a nice idea, uh let's [disfmarker] that that then they uh that allow us to make some more costs. We ca we uh we can at least tell them that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] True, but we did we didn't get that. So I think it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You don't know that. [speaker001:] it should either be a pack, maybe we sh that should be sold in in the s in stores with with a standard cover or something. [speaker002:] Well [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Huh. No, I'm not uh talking about that cost [gap] [speaker001:] But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] but the one that g has given us the order to design this. We could at least m uh make it like this, like you said, [speaker001:] They could, but uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] and then tell them okay, we had to drop this and that, just that you know. It is an [disfmarker] still an option, but [vocalsound] not for this price. [speaker001:] It's an option, but [disfmarker] yeah, it's true. So actually uh it's not that much of an increase, but yeah. [speaker002:] And if we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We cannot contact them. It's just the order that we got. [speaker003:] Exactly, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So that's what we gotta go with. So it's either one fi just just to get it f just to get it through final, it's either [vocalsound] turned into plastic, drop the squishy feel, make it make it more breakable, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] um or turn it yellow. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] It's uh something we have to decide on. [speaker003:] I'd say lose the curve and the colour [speaker001:] I say lose the curve. Oh that's true, [speaker003:] and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] we could lose the c yeah, I forgot that, sorry. Uh the curve. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So which curve is that ba that's basically that curve. [speaker001:] That's just this one just d this is the banana curve. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's better. [speaker001:] So this would this would be straight. [speaker002:] So we could u still have the comfort. [speaker001:] No, uh [disfmarker] no, that would be a curve inside the thing, I guess. No, would ju then it would just be a straight remote. Just like [vocalsound] like that. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Which would, yeah, turn it into something far more ordinary. [gap] we could make it yellow then, [speaker002:] I second that. [speaker001:] but [disfmarker] You second that, you second that we lose the curve. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] No, that it would turn out to be a pretty straight-forward remote control. [speaker001:] Okay, yeah. [speaker002:] So that's not really that [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] So I think it would be a good idea to keep the curve [vocalsound] to separate it from the rest of the remote control world, so to speak. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So we keep the curve. So the only only solution is either to use the l y lose the yellow or lose the rubber. [speaker002:] I would [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And I'm in favour of keeping the rubber, because it has more more advantages than the colour yellow has. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Oh. I agree. [speaker002:] Yeah. I would say [disfmarker] I would agree with you on the colour, [speaker003:] No. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] because that's an extra option, an extra service we can deliver for a little bit of more money. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So we can always do that. [speaker001:] Yeah, um I guess people are willing to pay for that. So I think we can take that option and just [disfmarker] with uh with the idea in the back of our head that you can customise your remote control. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So I think that would still make it a nice product. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] Okay, we're final on that. So [vocalsound] it's too bad we can't make the whole super thing. But anyways we're here. Um yeah. [speaker002:] Which is basically what we discussed. [speaker001:] This we discussed just now. That's just now [disfmarker] just [disfmarker] we could just discuss how the project went. I mean, was kind of [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And I want to do that. [speaker001:] I sort of expected that everything would turn out this way, but because you [disfmarker] yeah, everything cannot be for free. We didn't [disfmarker] I think it was too bad we didn't have the financial info the last time. Because that was [disfmarker] I th [speaker002:] Yes, [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker002:] we could have [disfmarker] [speaker001:] it was really essential really to ma because we spent uh uh entire stage designing a product of which we had no idea what it would cost. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So we just put something [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think it's really nor not in stroke with reality actually. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Me too, I felt a bit blind throughout the project, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] because in the beginning I had no list of available materials, [speaker001:] Yeah, I think [gap] [disfmarker] would have been. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and then I d had not list of available c finances. [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Materials would be ok at least the last meeting I would have expected had to have that. [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So I suppose [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Let's um [vocalsound] see [gap] um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, let's see if it sells. I mean I suppose this sells, [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because it's very [disfmarker] [vocalsound] very extended. But [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well I hope it sells. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Let's [disfmarker] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I suppose it sells, because it's good. [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker001:] I mean it's got everything for the for the reasonable price, because we didn't know what it's gonna cost anyway. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Hmm. Okay, let's eval evaluate uh the product of us, our design. Um I have some [disfmarker] [vocalsound] uh a method, a requirements and scale of. I uh will pre present uh some statements and we will decided together wha what [disfmarker] if it's true or false and uh then we see uh if the requirements of the user are fulfilled or not. [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] Have been met, okay. [speaker004:] And I will uh make a new blank sheet [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] So so the buttons, the look and feel. I thought it was okay, but the advanced uh settings, um screen, audio and channel [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Which are basically accessible through the menu button. [speaker001:] They're stuck under menu. [speaker004:] We are not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] For the menu. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] I think those are totally met, because we we really took them for the [disfmarker] they have the feel they want, [speaker004:] Oh the menu button is it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Hi Oh, okay. [speaker001:] they have the simplicity they want. [speaker004:] Then it's all uh [disfmarker] S [speaker001:] I think it's very uh very well met. Either two or one maybe. [speaker003:] One. [speaker004:] it's true. [speaker001:] I think we took that [disfmarker] everything they wanted into consideration. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So it could either be a two or a one. [speaker004:] So d Oh wait. Uh pen. [speaker001:] One and a half. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Which is not an option. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] The p Oh yeah, it's red, [speaker001:] Just create our own option. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] okay, but [disfmarker] Look and feel is everybo it's true. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] Anyone? And the next one [vocalsound] uh [disfmarker] yeah, when it's lost uh you can find it. [speaker001:] It's perfect. Even for deaf people, [speaker004:] It's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] I don't think it's perfect, but we did everything possible to to get it back. [speaker002:] To make it that way, yeah. [speaker001:] Because if it's stuck in you couch, you can see the light. Maybe you can hear it. But I mean we tried, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so I think it [disfmarker] that's [disfmarker] that deserves a one. Definitely. [speaker004:] And it's and it's [disfmarker] yeah. To [gap]. That's okay then. And the next one. How is that? Uh w we had [disfmarker] we don't have an uh manual, [speaker003:] Manual. [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] But I think that's a part of it. [speaker003:] I think the LCD display could be a little bit more difficult then a normal remote control, [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I'd use an [gap] remote control. [speaker002:] Mm yeah. [speaker003:] but then again, it's for young people. So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, an LCD, it tells a lot about uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, I th [speaker002:] And it's pretty straight-forward, you have a navigation [disfmarker] no keys to navigate through the LCD menus. [speaker003:] Exactly. [speaker001:] It's pretty straight-forward, uh-huh. [speaker003:] No, that's true. I think it won't be a big problem. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So it's a one or a [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] One I d no, [speaker004:] I don't know. [speaker002:] actu [speaker001:] I think [disfmarker] but we didn't even [disfmarker] [speaker004:] For the advanced uh settings. [speaker001:] there was no issue on making a manual actually. We didn't [disfmarker] [gap] really discuss it, [speaker004:] No okay, that [disfmarker] uh that's true. [speaker001:] but I don't think it takes [disfmarker] no, it really does doesn't take time to learn, I think. We took it s it's so easy, [speaker002:] No, [speaker004:] Oh, [speaker002:] it it is pretty straight-forward. [speaker004:] so it [disfmarker] [speaker001:] we have so little button, everything speaks for itself really. So I think that's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Ah. Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] yeah, we didn't [disfmarker] it's either two or one, I guess. [speaker004:] Takes no ti [speaker001:] Maybe it's a two, because d uh the LCD is a little is a little new and there is [disfmarker] there are some option hidden under the menu button. [speaker003:] With the more important functions on. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So I might make this a two instead of a one, I guess. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] And the LCD, you have to see it. [speaker001:] So just make that a two. [speaker004:] Um mm [disfmarker] Oh, it's a little bit learning. Okay. Uh yeah [vocalsound] it's uh a little bit same. But it tells you or not? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] You can use the LCD in a good way. I think so. I think it's perfect, the w where it is, what it can do, if it useful. I think so. [speaker004:] But wha w [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] oh, yeah. What are we uh displaying on the LCD screen? Just uh only the channels and [disfmarker] or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] the menus uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] What uh? [speaker003:] Things like brightness and uh those kind of things we've put in the menu, because we have no buttons for those. [speaker002:] Well, basically the menu options indeed. But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Oh, in the LCD screen. [speaker001:] No, y I mean in the LCD screen, the small screen. What does it display? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker004:] And for a channel selection, uh [gap] [disfmarker] or that's not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well I thought it was I thought it was [disfmarker] I thought that people wanted previews on their [disfmarker] I'm not sure if that even possible, [speaker004:] Yeah, I thought I thought too [speaker001:] but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] 'cause it's [disfmarker] this requires a quite quite a bit of band-width. I don't think it's possible really. But the [disfmarker] they didn't really define in what should be used for. [speaker004:] Maybe a TV guide or something in your LCD uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No. [speaker001:] But I think in for example like TV guides, I think that's [disfmarker] that th that you can transmit through it and everything. Just for extra information on your programmes. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah, it must be clear then what [disfmarker] what what for we use it. [speaker001:] But also things like like like menus or p how about preferences of your [disfmarker] uh with configuring your remote control for favourite [disfmarker] your favourite channel for example, how do you configure that. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So that could be done by LCD display. I think it's good. No, maybe it's not a one because it's [disfmarker] we're not using it perfectly. We didn't give it [disfmarker] I don't thing over-discussing. Now we gave it enough thought though. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think we d should just lower this. Maybe maybe it's a three though. We could've used it more effectively probably. [speaker004:] Yeah, indeed. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So everybody's agree with an uh three on it, it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Yeah. Two or three. [speaker001:] Yeah, we are using it, [speaker004:] W [speaker001:] but it's not [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] it's not poorly used, but it's not efficiently used, I think. We could have ev even lost [vocalsound] the selection button and uh done everything via LCD selection. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] now it's just extra to illustrate im uh extra features, [speaker004:] Yeah, [gap] I [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but okay. [speaker004:] A three. [speaker003:] Nah, it's not really [disfmarker] only an extra. [speaker002:] You can [disfmarker] seven. [vocalsound] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Ah, nothing, that's [vocalsound] [disfmarker] A seven. Uh that's uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No menus. Think about [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Can you talk to remote control? [speaker002:] Or we could say it [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well, it can't talk anymore. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So we scrap that. [speaker002:] Or we could say neutral, we [disfmarker] 'cause we scratched the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh yeah [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Just to be a prick, [speaker002:] C [speaker001:] but of course you can talk to your remote control, it doesn't do anything. [speaker004:] [gap] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [speaker001:] But you c [vocalsound] you can talk to it. [speaker004:] Not with the speech recognition. Uh yeah, all the trends and no colours uh anymore. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well, we did take everything into consideration of course. Uh the shape i shape is i [speaker004:] Yeah, [gap] [disfmarker] uh um only in the curves. [speaker001:] I think we [disfmarker] yeah, I think that's okay. [speaker004:] But the colours, we don't have special colours on it. [speaker002:] No, we don't have the colour. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] So I [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap] special co but we took into consideration the fact that it's customisable [speaker004:] Yeah, but we [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] to the fashi [speaker002:] Yes, but the end product [disfmarker] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] yeah, [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] we don't have it, so d [speaker001:] We don't have it [disfmarker] we do have it, [speaker004:] In the end product. [speaker001:] it's just sold as a package. [speaker003:] But [disfmarker] M [speaker001:] It does [disfmarker] it's not part of the basic product. [speaker003:] Changing covers is also trend that we followed. [speaker001:] It [disfmarker] that that's what I call trendy. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I mean the shape is trendy. The the sh the the functions are trendy. It's just the colours that are not supporting the basic model. [speaker004:] Now [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Because you ha it's just not affordable at the moment. [speaker004:] But it's not a one. [speaker002:] Maybe we should go with a two then, because it's not perfect, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because we can't do it initially, but we [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] It's possible, but you have to pay extra for the for the possibility of having it in a f a different colour. [speaker004:] Oh well [disfmarker] Oops. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh it's a two, right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] On the last one. Uh that n that's all. [speaker002:] Overall score. [speaker001:] Overall score. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Overall. [vocalsound] It's um [speaker001:] One two three. [gap] sixteen. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] ten, sixteen three [disfmarker] uh two [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Two two point some two point something. [speaker004:] two point seven or something like that. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] I don't know why. [speaker002:] Ten, sixteen, divided by [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker003:] Six. [speaker004:] Six. [speaker002:] Is two two third. [speaker001:] Two and two thirds. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] So we can say it's it's [disfmarker] the product is [disfmarker] it's okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It's okay, [speaker004:] Y not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but [vocalsound] that's yo m [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] mostly it's it's influenced by the fact that we didn't have enough resources to implement speech recognition. [speaker002:] There's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] 'Cause yeah, that gives you a seven, which ruins your your average. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Without that it would be like under [disfmarker] it wouldn't [disfmarker] yeah, it would be under two. So I think we have [disfmarker] even with this it's reasonable. [speaker004:] Woah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, if we make it into a four, as in neutral, because we didn't implement it, so we can't say that we [disfmarker] [vocalsound] that it's really not well implemented. We come out on a average of two one eighth. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well I think it's [disfmarker] two is okay. [speaker002:] So which is pretty w good. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah, two is pretty good. [speaker002:] It's at least on the positive side. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm, of course. [speaker001:] Definitely. [speaker002:] We could definitely have done better if we've had more resources, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, I think it's probably [disfmarker] [gap] I [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I do admit that we d [vocalsound] did miss a little [disfmarker] or didn't sp didn't talk [gap] [disfmarker] talk enough about the possibility of the LCD display. We could have used it more efficiently, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] we just didn't think of it that way. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, [vocalsound] with [gap]. [speaker002:] True. [speaker001:] So [gap] [disfmarker] like I said, [vocalsound] changing channels, everything hidden in your LCD display, so you just need the navigation buttons to do everything. [speaker004:] The scale. [speaker003:] But I think for this price, this is [disfmarker] it's really a reasonable product. [speaker001:] I think we div I think we did very well, [speaker003:] It's a good product. [speaker001:] uh ev even if you look at this score, we did quite well. [speaker004:] Yeah. With an LCD screen [gap]. [speaker003:] Oh. Oh. Yeah. [speaker001:] It just looking for improvements what what you could have improved. So. [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But if pep people really want speech recognition, then they must be prepared to pu to pay more, because it's cannot be done for this. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] They sh they should get kids, and just stick 'em in TV and say change the channel. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, you can make 'em another one. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Ah but for this price uh you cannot ask that. [speaker001:] I don' think so. [speaker003:] You cannot th think of that [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh it's just not [disfmarker] it it's not affordable. [speaker003:] No, it's not. [speaker001:] Or your sh you should lose the LCD screen probably, but I think that's [disfmarker] I think the LCD screen is more worth than speech recognition. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Oh It's also more attractive. [speaker001:] Definitely. Okay, that was that. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] So that's the final product without the speakers, I guess. [speaker002:] So did you [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Let's see, what was left in the the [disfmarker] Another one. [vocalsound] Hmm. [vocalsound] Yeah, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] we evaluate the product. [gap] [disfmarker] General project, what's i in [disfmarker] For example, I thou I thought we were pretty creative in what we created. We took the whole new approach of making exchangeable cover for example, which I thought was pretty creative, because it was never never ever listed somewhere. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Favourite channel. [speaker001:] Well [disfmarker] Anyways. Yeah, leadership is up to you. I mean perhaps I screwed up because I d [vocalsound] put a put a speech recognition into it. But that's not for me to decide. [speaker004:] Yeah, I know. Yeah. [speaker001:] I think we did pretty well as team-work though. Because, yeah was very hard to work with one another if you cannot communicate in the meantime, [speaker003:] Yes. Hmm. [speaker001:] because when I got the when I got the input for the financial results, initially of course I wanted to contact you. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah, you're working separate. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Say, look, this is [disfmarker] you're doing the wrong thing, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] you're s you're wasting your time now, because we're implementing stuff that we cannot afford. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So it would be better if y if there was more communication between uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah. Direct uh communication with [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] And we could share information which we received. [speaker001:] because that's that's what would w you [disfmarker] what you would normally do, either call or email someone. So that was too bad [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] con was impossible here anyways. [gap]. [speaker003:] That's the same thing that I had in the beginning. Everybody was using materials that s I didn't have. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It didn't have [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] or didn't knew what they costs or whatever. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker001:] There was just too little information about what things actually cost and if you could use them. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So that was a little unclear I suppose. I think a SMARTboard SMARTboard is pretty cool. I think uh s especially for design issues, it's very easy just to give your give your thoughts a little [disfmarker] it's easier to share them. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] My handwriting is little bit [disfmarker] yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Although for actual design I'd say the response time should be a little bit higher, [speaker001:] It's a little less [disfmarker] it [disfmarker] the response time is le it's very bad. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker002:] because [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's good to visualise everything, but I think the response time should [disfmarker] could be a lot better. [speaker002:] The digital pen was definitely better to draw my ideas and to further elaborate on that. [speaker004:] But th that's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Definitely. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Yeah, it's true. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But there's uh also one problem with this I noticed. Uh you have to finish a page before going to a n [speaker001:] No, you don't have to. No, you don't. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] I jin [speaker004:] You can [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker001:] I didn't check the finish button. I just [disfmarker] you just ditch it [speaker004:] Done and then it's okay. [speaker001:] and you can copy it or whatever. [speaker003:] Okay, I saw that uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh only if you uh check the notes or [vocalsound] press done. Then it um [disfmarker] then you can [disfmarker] then it exports to Word automatically. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] But it's not necessary to check either one of those two. You can just preview your p you can just preview your page in the in the programme. [speaker003:] Yeah, but I made [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Oh, okay. [speaker003:] Okay, [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] but I made three pages and they were not finished. And when the third one was finished, I wanted to download it and then it was not possible anymore, because you have to close all the pinnits uh the pages before going further. [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, before starting a ne a new page. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay, that could be b. [speaker003:] Exactly. So we cannot work on more than one page at same time. That's not possible. [speaker004:] Oh. Hmm. [speaker003:] You have to finish it completely, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Oh can you? Okay. [speaker003:] then download it, it's [disfmarker] then start a new one. [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] That's not very uh handy, but if you know that, then it's not a problem. [speaker001:] That's [disfmarker] Yeah, it's understandable, okay. [vocalsound] Any new ideas? Yeah, more communication between [vocalsound] between uh [disfmarker] that's the thing I noticed, that communication is very um very important, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Important to mm [disfmarker] [speaker001:] because if you get new information, it's essential f for the other team-mates to know that as soon as possible, because you would avoid making [disfmarker] doing extra work, because you were doing extra work now uh m working on the on the speech recognition, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you have limitation both on the technical [gap] [disfmarker] on the d on the design side. So I think that could have been better. But that's [disfmarker] I think it's more of a a setting here that you cannot communicate than uh [gap] than somewhere else. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, well it could also possibly be [disfmarker] well, is it a more real-time information base, so we can all see [vocalsound] which information is available to one another. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think so. And l less p less spam probably. I'm not sure i I'm not sure you got spammed as well, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] but I get spammed like every t every two minutes there was a [disfmarker] there was another email about master classes or something. [speaker003:] Ah. Well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] which were totally useless actually. I thought I should probably look into them, [vocalsound] but they were all useless. So I just [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, I personally did not have that, [speaker004:] Mm [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Oh okay. [speaker002:] That's probably your l description. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But I also didn't [disfmarker] not really. But still, you had that as well. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker002:] Is that we finished up the design and then we checked the website, and then there was just extra information. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, after [disfmarker] After five minutes, uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap]. Yeah, [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] There was a little delay in the [disfmarker] [gap] bit of a c crucial delay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I didn't have any uh more information, it's just always the same here. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] So that's that's kind of a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Email uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It would change, but not for me. So I'd [disfmarker] I had no extra information to go on that one than what you give me actually. [speaker003:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker001:] I couldn't do any research myself or [disfmarker] I see, that's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] yeah, w I could have done a little extra work probably, then [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] it's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] But I was busy enough anyway. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Any new ideas found? Or is that a [gap] 'cause [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] uh yeah, it's [disfmarker] well, probably is. [speaker002:] How much time do we have for this anyway? [speaker001:] I have no clue. That's like [disfmarker] oh,but it [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker001:] Should i if the project is evaluated and it was it was in b within budget, we should celebrate. So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] bring out the beer. [speaker002:] Champagne. [speaker001:] Uh okay, [speaker004:] I want one for my own. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] think that's about it. Uh [disfmarker] I'm not sure what we should still do though uh t let's see what [disfmarker] all your tasks were finished, right? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] What you ha from your assistant. So let's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I have no more email. My coach is uh being very silent now. [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker001:] Okay, [speaker004:] my personal coach i [speaker001:] I should [disfmarker] I think I sh I still have the the total report to finish up. I think we took very little time now, because [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Yeah, we're in agreement, everything [disfmarker] the design is okay. The one thing we missed though, we don't have a product name. [speaker004:] What [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No, [speaker001:] How about you cook a [disfmarker] how about you cook up a product name? [speaker003:] we haven't think above [disfmarker] about that. [speaker002:] Product name. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, name. [speaker003:] Huh. It's better than thi I think than a serial number. Sony uh TR something uh f means nothing to me. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Or fruit name. [speaker001:] Just [disfmarker] oh, think of a catchy name. I'll be working on this until the beep [disfmarker] until it beeps. So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Like fruit names. [speaker004:] Fruit name or something like that. The banana remote or something. [speaker001:] What? Fruit? You don't want it to resemble a banana. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I don't know. Yeah, it's the form of it. [speaker002:] The bana [speaker001:] It's not yellow anyway. [speaker002:] 'cause it's not yellow anymore. [speaker004:] Yeah [disfmarker] oh, yeah. [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] It's not yellow anymore. It is curved, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Uh yeah. [vocalsound] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, uh I was going for the RC deluxe, but it's not really a catchy name or anything, it's more [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No, it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Uh at least it's not something with numbers. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] Numbers are so meaningless to the people. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Something with our [gap] company name, [speaker004:] That's true. [speaker002:] can we do anything with that? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker004:] Reaction, Real Reaction. [speaker002:] Maybe there's something on the website which will help us out. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Real Reaction. [speaker002:] The reaction deluxe. [speaker001:] Real Reaction future RC. [vocalsound] Step into the future of of remote controlling your TV. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Is that a name or a c campaign? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] No that's a that's a catchy slogan. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Or the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Control your remote control. [speaker002:] The real reactor. [speaker003:] Real react. [speaker001:] I go for future RC probably. Something like [disfmarker] It's short f [speaker003:] The Real Reactor, I don't find that uh that bad at all. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] Real reactor? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You should write it down as a [disfmarker] an option. [speaker003:] Because our name is Real Reaction. [speaker001:] Uh that that's [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker001:] That makes me think of different [vocalsound] products than a remote control really. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I'm not sure. Real reaction in a real [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Zapping. The [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So that's one option. [speaker001:] Real reactor. Didn't notice. [speaker003:] I'm looking for things in the name. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] So that the first three letters are s the same. REA REA. [speaker002:] Should I write the banana down or [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, sure. [speaker001:] I take f yeah, [speaker002:] Sure? [speaker001:] take a banana. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] The banana. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Remote. Banana recei RC. [speaker003:] The triple R. Real Reaction remotes control. Triple R. [speaker004:] Remote. [speaker002:] Well I [disfmarker] [speaker004:] R three C. [speaker002:] Uh do you mean it like [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap]? [speaker004:] R three C. [speaker003:] [gap] yeah. [speaker002:] You mean it like this? [speaker003:] Yeah, that [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Real Reaction Remote Control. R three C. Oh yeah. [speaker003:] [gap]. [gap]. [speaker001:] No, not like that. It should be it should be longer, because it's not a product name that you f print on a box. [speaker003:] I think [disfmarker] triple R. Doesn't sound [gap]? [speaker001:] Just write out triple, like a word triple RC, triple stripe [disfmarker] Oh. Triple dash R dash s s C. [speaker004:] Yeah, triple R. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Triple RC. [speaker003:] Ah. [speaker004:] The triple RC, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] R s R three C. [gap]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] R dash C. [speaker002:] Dash C? [speaker003:] I think I like it like this more. [speaker001:] Dash. Triple R or triple RC? [speaker002:] Like a C right now or a dash in a C? [speaker004:] Triple R dash. [speaker001:] How about do both? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Sure if it looks stupid. Uh I think that the the RC together takes away the the the image of [disfmarker] it's a triple [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Uh the first the first one looks like it's a triple remote control, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] That [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but it's only a single remote control. And it's especially on the triple R that's important. The Real Reaction Remote. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, [speaker003:] I would [disfmarker] huh. I would lose the C [speaker004:] this [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] and just name it triple R. [speaker002:] Is it triple RCs? No. [speaker001:] [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It sounds like uh thinking about two different things and combining it. [speaker004:] Triple remote. [speaker003:] I would just say triple Rs triple R [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah, triple R [gap] yeah, you can [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Well, that's another option. [speaker003:] That's also short, catchy. [speaker004:] It's okay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, triple R. [speaker002:] Okay, so which ones are we going to scratch definitely? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] The banana. [vocalsound] Banana. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Banana. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Banana remote. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I say this one as well. [speaker004:] Yeah, the deluxe. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker001:] I think we're all in agreement about the triple R. I think triple R is cool. [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker004:] The r triple R. [speaker002:] Triple R? Triple R it is. [speaker001:] And it looks cool when you print it in font, looks pretty cool. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap] did you do now? [speaker001:] Just like this [gap] just [disfmarker] and you just print triple R, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it looks [disfmarker] doesn't look bad, it's short, it's okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So have to write my report now, I guess. Um [disfmarker] Um [disfmarker] Yeah, so we have everything. We have the product, we have the costs, [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] we have the possibility of everything. [speaker004:] It can't work. That will not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. I think it's adjourned. Retire to my lair and finish the report. That was a short meeting. But efficient though. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. The boss is always the last one to go home. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Probably. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] See. Okay, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] goodbye. [speaker003:] See you in a minute. [speaker004:] Damn. I will write that one in a Word uh document. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Could you guys draw me a picture of the final design to put on the cover of the report? [speaker002:] Yeah, sure. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Can't we take this one? [speaker004:] Oh sh [speaker003:] Otherwise we have to do it all over again. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I don't really know whether we can save it as a picture or no. [speaker003:] Is it okay if I try? Is that okay with you? [speaker002:] Sure. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay, I will ask you when uh I need the information. [speaker003:] I'll put it back in a minute. [speaker004:] So it's [disfmarker] oh. [speaker003:] Okay, it has been saving something, but where to I don't know. [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] Oh. Merge. [speaker003:] Oh, can I say exp yes, I can. [speaker004:] Sucks. [speaker003:] Export as J PEG. [gap]. Okay, can I not put this wherever I wants. My document is the wrong one, huh. [speaker004:] [gap] [disfmarker] Yeah, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Network places. [speaker004:] I don't know. Smart [disfmarker] no. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] Ma it's maybe it's not on the network of uh the rest. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I don't think so. [speaker004:] That one is. [gap]. [speaker003:] Document and settings. [speaker002:] I wouldn't pick that one, no. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That's a pity. That means that we have to gonna draw it again. Are you gonna do that? [speaker002:] Sure. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker003:] That [disfmarker] Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yes, that's correct. [speaker004:] Yeah. Okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. No. Oh, it's export. [speaker004:] Oh yeah, [gap]. [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Can I see scores? Uh, [gap] one one, two threes, two [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh, of course. Sorry. [speaker004:] Okay, then we'll [disfmarker] overall, two points. Yes. [speaker002:] I see you later. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm.

[speaker001:] Okay, welcome everyone to our next meeting. I'm busy writing and busy leading the meeting, but um I've prepared a little presentation once again um or at least an agenda I think uh the biggest part of the presentation will be uh on your side. Um we are here at the conceptual design meeting, which is hereby opened. Um once again I will try to uh write some minutes which I just from the previous meeting uh placed inside our project folder, which was quite some typing. Um today we once again have uh three presentations, if I'm right, and after that we will take a decision on the remote control concepts. And just as the last time we have forty minutes to accomplish that. Okay, well [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I'd say let's start with the first presentation. [speaker004:] 'Kay. [speaker001:] Um in the same order as last time? [speaker003:] W sure. [speaker002:] Mm. Alright. [speaker001:] Okay. Well, take it away. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap] [vocalsound] Okay uh welcome you all. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Components design, um [vocalsound] uh first of all uh I would like to uh uh accommodate some of those uh things I uh uh [disfmarker] elaborate some of the things I did. I I elaborated on the concept. What should be um uh said about uh the components, uh its properties and what kind of materials should we use to uh to make uh one of those r remote controls. Uh well first of all I've uh d subtracted some of the components that is that are used uh are w w um [vocalsound] you know from what uh the remote control's formed. Uh first of all, the case, the case, the surrounding of the of the the remote control. [vocalsound] I would like to uh give you an idea of uh how I thought about. [speaker004:] Don't destroy my giraffe. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Giraffe's gone now. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay um the case was is made from rubber, I suppose. There's one of the [disfmarker] because when you use a remote control a lot of people uh will uh will uh drop their remote control [speaker004:] Drop it. [speaker003:] and they break uh [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] becau the uh titanium was also an option. But uh it's a very expensive material. Uh rubber is, I think, uh the best suitable uh material uh to use uh for our uh for our remote control. Um it's poss it's also possible to uh create fancy colours with rubber. Uh rubber l makes it easy to uh to to [disfmarker] it lets lets itself colour. Uh titanium uh you have to paint it and with that uh it's possible to scratch it or uh yeah make it ugly. Uh rubber uh the total uh piece of rubber that's sor uh that's that's used uh to make the case is uh the same colour, so if you scratch it it's still the same colour, perhaps uh it's a little bit damaged. But it's a very strong material. Um [vocalsound] I h I had an idea single covered uh curved, sorry, single curved. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh so it's t two dimensional. I think it's uh it's best to draw oh green. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] It's a colour. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Bright colour. Fancy colour. Forward. [speaker003:] Uh [disfmarker] New. Blank. Okay. [speaker004:] You have to go t [speaker003:] Let's make it uh black. Okay. I thought of an idea like this. Oh [gap] that. [vocalsound] Um delete. Blank. Okay. So it also looks nice when it's on your table. So you get [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker003:] uh it doesn't lay flat down on the table, but it's c it's stands. [speaker004:] Oh it's a side view. [speaker003:] Side view yes it's side view so uh I I'm not technically good at th three D modelling, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] but. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Um uh it's just an idea I had so it's uh it's very uh so its also looks nice when it's on the table. Um the graphical user interface and the buttons, uh we also thought about that already. Uh I thought about uh the LCD touch screen, which is uh is easy to clean too. One of the great uh advantages of the LCD screen you just use some [gap] or uh another uh cleaning uh uh cl some cleaning stuff. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And um it should be made of strong plastic and it should be bright. Well I already uh s uh explained some properties of that material and I think uh well we also we almost concluded about that uh this should uh be uh our uh button component. [speaker004:] True. [speaker003:] So uh uh that's all about uh the buttons. Uh the batteries, uh we also thought about that already, uh will be chargeable with uh uh an option for a mount station so you can uh put the uh [vocalsound] the remote control in a mount station so its charges itself up instead of uh plugging it in or something like that. Questions, [gap]? [speaker004:] No no no no no. [speaker002:] No. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Just looking. [speaker003:] And they should be long lasting, not uh not be empty uh in about uh two minutes or uh thirty minutes or forty minutes of use. And next step is the chip uh th the component that's uh makes or transmits the signal to the television. Uh there was an option to use s a rather simple chip but I think uh because uh of our uh highly uh requiring uh requirements, there should be an advanced chip in it [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] with uh also the ability to uh facilitate speaker speech recognition uh which unfortunately is still in a test phase, so uh there should be some more uh investigation on that side. Uh my personal preferences uh I also overheard in the last meeting that there shou we should use uh our own business colours. That was correct, wasn't it? [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Okay. I think they are rather boring for um for use with rubber. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well, business colours I thought it was the the slogan and uh the corporate image, so yeah, it needs colour, [speaker003:] Okay they should be m sh they should be in mind, wasn't it? [speaker001:] but I don't think you have to make the entire thing in the corporate colour. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay so it d it doesn't says uh to uh have the slogan? [speaker001:] It must be recognisable. [speaker003:] Okay okay. Well that's possible of course. We could make a little R and R [gap] on the top of the machine. [speaker002:] You can put the R and R. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh so they are [vocalsound] pretty boring, I suggest, because just the availability with rubber to make fantastic colours uh and also in a lot of possible colours, so it's possible to make very uh fancy uh remote controls which peopl uh who people in which people will find they're uh interesting. And uh will buy uh [vocalsound] them faster when they look at the same old grey or black uh colours. Uh s as I said uh before rubber is uh is impossible to damage severely imp instead of uh of course you can break it when you you when you break it in s for example with a pair of scissors or something like that, but i if you drop it it's not uh broken uh right away s instead of using uh plastic, hard plastic or uh titanium. And I personally liked uh the single curved uh remote control, because it yeah it makes sense. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. Well that's all about my uh my findings. [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker001:] Okay, thank you. [speaker004:] Mm mm mm. Next. [speaker002:] I will go next. [gap] [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] Alright so [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I thought a little bit about the interface. Uh how it should look. And uh [vocalsound] uh we uh determined that will not be no buttons, but only an LCD screen, so I had to uh look on that. And the design is therefore based on what we just uh uh thought of. Uh first there are some new findings and new technology for speech recognition. And this is that uh um uh uh you you ask you give a question through through the device and it answers you. And they already uh put this in an in a coffee maker. And so that it you say uh good morning, uh coffee maker, and it says t says to you back good morning Joe or what's your name. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] This uh and there's an easy way to uh program that uh you say record into the device into the speaker and then you say the question and three seconds later you say the answer and then when you say the question it gives you the answer. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Um perhaps it's useful, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] perhaps for because people um lose the remote, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] they can yell uh remote where are you and [gap] calls or something. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] It's true. [speaker002:] And perhaps we could uh implement that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] And then I have to go out of the presentation because I tried to make some kind of a a idea of how it should look like [speaker003:] Oh my God. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but I can't draw, so uh don't [vocalsound] make too much of it [vocalsound]. I tried to uh the LCD screen I tried to sort of to draw [gap]. I thought uh at least uh the icon for the volume. I don't know if there is an icon for the program, but [speaker003:] Not just a P. [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker004:] P yeah, just a P. [speaker002:] So uh [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] and then the buttons above and uh below [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] the and the and the mute button also recognisable as an icon. Um. [speaker004:] Where's where's the button for two [gap]? [speaker002:] I forgot that one. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I thought I forgot something, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but uh [vocalsound]. And uh and uh the numbers, that should be a bit larger I think it's not really on scale and and so forth. [speaker003:] Ah. [speaker004:] Doesn't matter. [speaker002:] Um an options button. And I thought the the button for teletext apar uh apart because it's not really options, I think. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] It's uh options is the settings of the remote and of the TV and that kind of uh thing. [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] So could call it settings or something. But this is a bit uh how I thought it. And uh the LCD uh somewhere on the remote. Perhaps we could be more curvy the remote perhaps should, so that it's better in your hand or something uh. [speaker003:] Oh okay, yeah. [speaker002:] But uh and and uh a microph microphone for the speech uh recognition if we want to implement that. Uh and then uh if you press the op options button, now we have an example of and then you should get the other options with what what you could do and that you could do with something like this this. [speaker003:] Oh yeah, [gap]. [speaker002:] And uh it's also uh I thought think we discussed uh earlier that uh older people don't really want to use uh these extra settings. And older people a also don't really want to use this uh th this kind of option menus. So they want to u use one button and then something happens, and not choose with uh this kind of uh [disfmarker] And you could put in a an a really s little scrolling device on the side of your uh remote, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] so you could scroll scroll uh across these uh things. [speaker003:] Mm. Okay. [speaker002:] That's an option. And that was my uh finding dinge. [speaker001:] Thanks. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Now our third [speaker003:] Go Danny, go Danny. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] team member with his presentation. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay, I'm going to tell you something about a trend watching. The trends from the past years, what the people like, what the youngsters like, what the elderly people liked about shapes, colours, material and stuff. 'Kay. The method I used was [disfmarker] Like I told I watched the trends from the past years about colours, shapes, material they wanted uh from elderly and young people. So we can keep that in mind for designing f uh the device itself. Findings I made. The most important thing people liked last year was that the remote control should be look look fancy. The second important thing that w should be if inv in innov innovative, okay, like the LCD screen that's [vocalsound] quite innovative so that should be great meeting for this. And the third thing is it should be easy to use. I think with only one menu, four button, channel, volume, it should also be enough for easy to use. The personal preferences for the young people, they liked fruity colours like uh banana yellow, uh strawberry red and stuff. [speaker003:] Fruity? [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Grass green. [speaker003:] Fruity. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. Like that. The round shapes, and soft material m materials like the rubber. [speaker003:] Mm. Okay. [speaker004:] It should be soft uh i it should feeling spongy or s Sponge Bob like things. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Let's build it into a sponge. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Th Elderly people like au colours which y are being seen in autumn like um woods um dark brown, red, deep reds and stuff. They liked square shapes with round edges. And hard materials like wood, um titanium. They those kind of materials they liked. This is a bit like the young peoples like the fruity colours, innovative, all the colours you see, the blue, the red, the white, the yellow, that stuff. And then I th I I personally thought the front side of the shape should be something for the youngsters like like [speaker001:] Oh y [vocalsound] [speaker004:] this or something. It's it's a bit like a banana. And the colour should be yellow, or something. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] And for the elderly people just plain old. Because we decided to have two kind of remotes, two designs, or was it two colours? [speaker002:] It was one remote, I think, [speaker004:] Different colours, yeah. [speaker002:] different colours. [speaker004:] We should decide whether it's going to be with round shapes. I think like my colleague, you said, is that's e better, or for the elderly people something like like the iPod or something, with round squares. Simple but [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] easy to use. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] So that's it. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] So for the older people, a more traditional uh form. [speaker004:] That is my [disfmarker] Yeah, like the older o older colours I can maybe [disfmarker] [speaker002:] You could you could uh change the colours, that was also the idea. I don't know which shape you should should take, [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Colours th the elderly people [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but. [speaker001:] Yeah, I guess changing colours will be easier than changing uh [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Changing just the shape of the uh remote control? [speaker001:] the shape of it. [speaker002:] Perhaps you could find something in the middle. [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Round but square. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] s round corners, but s but square, yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But maybe then both groups won't buy it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Uh i i if you do it uh uh square, with round corners but a little uh in the middle of it uh [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] i Do you know what I mean? [speaker003:] Yeah I know what you mean, kind of like a [gap]. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [gap] wait, like [vocalsound] like this [vocalsound] uh a bit. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So it's a bit square, but it's also a bit uh round. [speaker003:] Kinda like a beer glass. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] So but then [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I know what you mean. [speaker002:] Same sides. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It's also easy to to have [vocalsound] to to put in your hand. [speaker002:] But that's uh [disfmarker] Yeah but that's also how other remotes are shaped, so that's uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But perhaps that's a good thing, so that's easy to use. People know the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Will recognise that's as a remote control. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] Look something like that [gap]. Autumn colours like red, brown. [speaker003:] Uh when I saw your d Oh. [speaker004:] They liked the wood a lot. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So maybe we could give it like wooden loo look look or something in that colour. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, kinda like old cars, uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And a bit bit old school style renaissance, medieval kind of things. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Let's put it all together. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Swords. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Those kind of [disfmarker] Yeah, those kind of things. So you see the big difference between the young people? Fresh, exciting. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] And the old people, old and boring. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] But that's easily to do with the colour, I think. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] Sorry? [speaker002:] That's easy to do with the colours, I think. [speaker004:] Yeah I think it's it's easier to do in colour than in shape. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker004:] Because otherwise we have to [gap] get different shapes, [speaker001:] Yeah we think so too. [speaker004:] and colour [gap] way easier than yeah the shapes. In material yeah rubber, rubber is, like I said, young people like more soft materials and spongy ones [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and the old people like [vocalsound] plain wood. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So we have to decide if we're going to use real hard rubber, or soft rubber. Or something something between that. [speaker002:] Yeah think uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Soft rubber. [speaker002:] Also in between. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah [gap] soft rubber [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] which you can you can feel in it. [speaker003:] Yeah I know what you [disfmarker] Um. [speaker002:] I don't think you should be able to mould it, [speaker004:] Or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] No. Or or wh [speaker003:] It should shouldn't be [gap]. [speaker004:] what's something harder. No no no but but you have to like like like a a eraser or something. That's the bit you can press it in, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] or something harder. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] Bit like this kind of rubber. This uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, something like this, yeah. [speaker002:] But it's quite hard, this. [speaker004:] Yeah it's quite hard but you can press it in. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] It's feels kind s spongy. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Spongy. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Something. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I don't think it's rubber. [speaker004:] No. N n n [speaker001:] So we need a spongy feeling. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh did you have something about uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Are you going to invite Sponge Bob, maybe he can [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So we should first decide about shape, I think. [speaker003:] Ding ding. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah I think that's the better thing to do. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Which uh [disfmarker] Then you can fit the LCD screen in it, [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] and can decide uh. [speaker003:] Um I also s uh can't help but notice [vocalsound] that you uh used an [disfmarker] you had a remote control [gap] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and the LCD screen was uh rather small. Um. [speaker004:] Yeah w I think that LCD screen should be like [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah it it's supposed to be bit s bit s bit [speaker003:] This was your size, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but I think it should be larger. [speaker004:] Yeah three quarter of the of the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, three quarters. So uh so you don't have to put your [disfmarker] [vocalsound] oh. [speaker004:] Yeah the buttons won't get that small when the LCD screen is [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh new, blank. So uh when you get [vocalsound] this uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] Ooh [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh kinda like this. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Or should it be larger? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Larger I think. [speaker003:] Larger? Because you want to put your hands [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But if you pu [speaker004:] Yeah becau because you have [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Now you can put your hand there and then you won't touch the screen. [speaker003:] You want Yeah. [speaker002:] Perhaps that's best. [speaker004:] Yeah okay, true, true, true true. [speaker003:] Your thumb here. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] But not on the screen because [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah that's uh that's an idea. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Looks a bit like a Game Boy now. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Because when you put your f Yeah but if yo if you make the the LCD screen as large as the remote control itself, uh you'll [vocalsound] you'll always get some [disfmarker] You [disfmarker] [speaker002:] You always touch it, [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker003:] Going to be very greasy and stuff. [speaker004:] But it won't get that small because you have how much? Nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen buttons on the screen. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] One to zero, the two digit, [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah you don't want it too small. How yeah how large [disfmarker] [speaker004:] You have to you have to [disfmarker] Because some fat people with d thick fingers will press three buttons at same time. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah they have thick fingers [gap]. But if you wanna make it in international, Japanese uh people got uh rather small hands [speaker004:] Yeah true, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] and we got these large [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, we have we have the zoom option, right? [speaker003:] Zoom opt Ah yeah of course, yeah. You can make it larger to to uh to uh with accompanying uh greater fields to push the button. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And we won't include a a pen, or something to point, [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] hey, we we want to do it with our fingers, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] right? [speaker003:] Your fingers, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You don't want uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Y you could include a pen [speaker003:] Because if you lose the pen uh if you lose the pen uh you can't use [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Use a pen You you c you can lose the pen. [speaker001:] Yeah but I think people want to use a remote with with their fingers [speaker004:] Yeah [gap] the fingers, yeah. [speaker001:] because th they're used to that [speaker002:] Yeah o yeah [gap], if they think it's handy to use a pen. [speaker001:] and [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah I think this uh this is a good size for the screen. I don't know how how large the actual remote should be but a little bit like this, or something. [speaker001:] And maybe we have to add a tissue to remove the grease from all the fingers, huh. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah but that that can be [gap] with plain soft tissue. [speaker003:] You can do [gap] whatever uh any uh cloth. [speaker004:] Yeah, you can buy those at [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay well maybe, if I can interrupt you, maybe I should uh should show some points on which we uh should take a decision. [speaker003:] Sure. [speaker001:] So we can discuss these points. [gap] those points um energy question mark. How how should we uh supply the thing with energy and how [disfmarker] are we going to do it with separate docking station and then put [gap] in it. Uh chip on print and case. Those are points my uh coach advised me to discuss here, but I hope you have ideas about them. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I think energy were batteries and then uh and uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] The docking station. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. So that's the the the first point. [speaker004:] Maybe it's better to to include rechargeable batteries [speaker001:] We already decided that on the previous meeting. [speaker003:] W [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] which you can recharge through the docking station. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] if the badg the batteries are dead [speaker002:] Just like with the telephone. [speaker003:] I kinda like your [disfmarker] [speaker004:] then you can re you can uh change them. [speaker003:] Yeah you got some uh some of those uh uh wireless uh mice? Mouse. Computer mouse. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah like those. [speaker003:] Kinda like those kind of batteries. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] but it should be th I think normal batteries, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] not not like two or two uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, normal plain you [disfmarker] No normal plain batteries you can buy at the supermarket or retail shop. Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Simple rechargeable uh batteries. [speaker002:] Yeah. Um what was with the chip on print? [speaker003:] The chip on print? Um [disfmarker] Uh you gotta f Yeah. I think so. Chip on print with a with a [vocalsound] simple uh a sim not a simple but a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Print plate. [speaker003:] We also discussed that. Didn't we? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah but how did this how does that with a LCD screen? You still have a print plate. [speaker003:] Uh [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah. You always have a print plate. [speaker003:] Beg your pardon? [speaker004:] You always have a print plate, right? [speaker003:] Yeah sure, of course, yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Always, so [disfmarker] I dunno what w what we have to decide about that. [speaker001:] Yeah well it's a good question. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It just was in there [speaker003:] [gap] Well uh [speaker001:] and I didn't have any information about it, [speaker003:] chip on print, I think what they mean uh with the regular rubber buttons that you got, uh it's always clear for the remote control when you press uh a certain button. [speaker001:] but [disfmarker] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] But when you got a LCD screen, with no uh with not [vocalsound] [disfmarker] the buttons are not always on the same place, [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. But [disfmarker] [speaker003:] for example if you enlarge a button, or if you got several options uh appearing on your screen, uh the co-ordinations aren't always the same. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] When you got a regular button, th the button of stand-by is always on the same place [speaker004:] Yeah okay, but the p print plate of L LCD screen is more advanced than a normal print plate, [speaker003:] and you got on the and on the [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker004:] so that that's not of any discussion, I think. [speaker001:] Well [speaker003:] [gap] I suppose so. [speaker001:] you need some kind of CPU, I guess. [speaker004:] Mm, I don't I dunno I don't think that's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It is a simple CPU but it doesn't [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah yeah okay but I d I I don't know if nor o s it's quite a simple LCD. [speaker003:] Yeah because it has to uh b [speaker004:] Yeah, it's quite a simple LCD screen. I think they don't need that big of CPU. [speaker003:] Yeah but it the the remote control has to know whether you're in a settings menu or just uh you just want to turn up the volume. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay, true true. True. [speaker003:] So it has to have some kind of a calculation unit or CPU to know uh in which state you are [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and uh which button you are pressing in at the right moment. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [vocalsound] Because we're projecting projecting the buttons on the LCD screen. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker003:] And a touch screen makes it uh possible to uh to get the co-ordination of your finger on the screen. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And the case, yeah we already discussed the case, [speaker002:] It's rubber. [speaker003:] we wanted to make it from rubber [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] and uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] but but a hard rubber like this? Or softer rubber or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh hard rubber I think. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] That's the easy to ha uh to to uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It bounces back from the floor where you [vocalsound] throw it. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah sure, [speaker004:] We have different colours. [speaker003:] look [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah yeah this in different colours? [speaker004:] So the shapes is something between the square shapes with round colo corners and a round shapes? [speaker003:] D [speaker004:] No I don't think, I think it's more round than square. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah it's a bit. But I think it should be a bit longer, perhaps. [speaker004:] So it meets I think it meets more the young people than the older people. [speaker002:] Yeah. I think so too. [speaker001:] Yeah. But that's what we want, [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's our target. Yeah. [speaker003:] It's our main target. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Lower than forty years, I think [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] it was. [speaker003:] Well and how about my idea uh of making it um with one single curve? [speaker004:] Oh yeah that that [vocalsound] I think [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So i [speaker004:] I thought that was a quite good [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Because it's a gadget and you want to show it off, of course. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah you have a fancy design, then, right away. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker004:] You can put it on your table with the LCD screen, [speaker001:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Because it Yeah. [speaker004:] you don't have to put it [disfmarker] get it in your hand, you can put it next to you and then dive it in [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's a good idea. [speaker004:] and [gap]. Yeah. [speaker003:] It's a lot easier. [speaker002:] Yeah, alright. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So, so [speaker001:] Okay so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] you got uh [disfmarker] Did you write that down? [speaker002:] And then [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh got a single curved uh rubber f uh fancy coloured [vocalsound] remote control. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You can't you You can't [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] oh, you c you can draw it on your paper and then load it on the [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, you can uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] It's pretty easy [speaker001:] but I wrote it down. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And load it on the the user the server. [speaker002:] And [disfmarker] [speaker001:] What about the user interface, there are also some some questions uh about the concepts I think you have some ideas on that [gap]. [speaker002:] Yeah, I had what I just uh [speaker001:] You you showed your drawing. [speaker002:] I should [gap] again. I miss a few buttons, but. Well. At least uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] what we should also have on, I just remembered, um a menu to go back through the first uh [gap] if if you touch options, you can't go back to this uh right away now. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to go back. Yeah uh uh. [speaker002:] This [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Isn't it better to have the sound and the general buttons horizontal? [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker004:] With the minus and the plus. [speaker002:] I think it's [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think it's easier than [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I don't know. I I thought it was uh easier to handle this way, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but I don't know what they think. [speaker003:] Sorry? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Would you like the the buttons horizontal or v vertical? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] For sound and channel. [speaker003:] Depends on the screen. [speaker002:] Th [speaker003:] If you make the screen vertical it doesn't matter. If you make it uh in a rectangle [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Right well [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] if we make it like this, I think if you [speaker003:] I so it's it's it's it's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] put it like this [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Square. [gap] [speaker004:] I think it's it's easier to have it something like [disfmarker] Oh a button uh minus here, plus over here. A minus here, plus over here. [speaker003:] [gap] Oh, okay. [speaker004:] And on here. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] The other buttons and on here [vocalsound] the top. The options and then you have something like uh the P over here, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] But I think I wou [speaker004:] and the sound. [speaker002:] I think that's a matter of what you're used to. [speaker004:] Something uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I think I would put a plus and a min uh here. And then the P in the mid in the middle and the sound uh in the middle. [speaker003:] Uh. [gap] [speaker004:] Something like [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Sh [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Take your time. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Plus minus plus uh [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Almost. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] minus. [speaker002:] Yeah but I think when you are holding it, you could press the minus and the plus and with the other finger the minus and the plus. [speaker004:] Yeah I think you're going to s you're going to use it with one thumb. [speaker002:] Yeah but I think [disfmarker] Yeah I don't know. [vocalsound] Perhaps I have some examples. [speaker003:] W We'll leave that to the usability engineering then. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I don't know [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Who's the usability engineering? [speaker002:] That's me. [speaker004:] She is. [gap] [speaker003:] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But I'm going to look if I've got some examples 'cause perhaps you should choose what's most often used. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Oh. [speaker002:] The [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] 'Cause they can use that better. [speaker003:] Consistency. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Oh [gap] [disfmarker] I have that those s numbers. [speaker002:] I [disfmarker] Here is our [disfmarker] here are uh [speaker004:] Or a good watch. [speaker002:] I don't really know. [speaker004:] B [speaker001:] Everybody's searching in his data. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] Channel selection. Per hour one hundred and sixty eight. Volume selection four times an hour [speaker002:] Yeah but [gap] [disfmarker] But I mean if it's usually plus or min above each other or next to each other on a normal remote. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So not how much [disfmarker] n not how often it's used, but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] W what's what's usual or normal. [speaker004:] Yeah, that depends on on on the remote. [speaker002:] Yes I'm looking here. But here's it's below, [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] here also, and now here's here's next to each other. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] I think it's [gap] it's a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think [gap] because I have two televisions at home. One is horizontal, one is vertical, so it depends. [speaker003:] Yeah it does it doesn't really matter, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. Depends. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] I think the the the volume was usually uh above each other, because you go higher and down. [speaker004:] Yeah, lower. [speaker002:] And the the pay the the the program is next to each other, because you would go further and back. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] True. [speaker002:] That's how it's is usually [gap] when I look here [speaker003:] Okay, um. [speaker002:] that's what I see. [speaker003:] Let's cut to the chase. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It's got to change. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah well I think we have we don't have to decide about that now how where we will put the buttons [speaker002:] I don't know. [speaker004:] Yeah is it is user interface. [speaker001:] just the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] concepts. [speaker004:] Component. [speaker002:] This concept is in the actual design, but you should know where you would place a [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, well le Yeah. Interface, yeah. [speaker002:] And the speech uh shall we implement that? Or uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah well we just heard about the new uh technology, huh? [speaker004:] Yeah I think it's it's easy for that, [speaker003:] Technologies, uh. [speaker004:] where are you, but then it says I'm here. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Makes it possible to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But then you should also find a place [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You could if you do it like this you could put it in a corner or something. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] You can talk into the corner. [speaker004:] Yeah, a microphone, yeah. [speaker003:] [gap] Not even necessary, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] because a lotta [disfmarker] you can make a very sensitive microphone, so it makes it possible to uh [vocalsound] just put it arou uh underneath it or on the on the bottom of the uh remote. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah maybe at the bottom where you can can hel hold it with you hand that there's also a microphone uh [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah, that's also [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah. Right. [speaker001:] over there. [speaker002:] So, [speaker003:] But that's not import I think that's not im very important [speaker002:] in the middle or something. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] because yeah, it doesn't matter where the microphone is. [speaker002:] [gap] but you should uh decide where you want to put it. [speaker003:] Ah okay, sure, okay, [speaker002:] Right? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] well tha [speaker004:] Um I think where it isn't seen [speaker003:] Underneath? [speaker004:] the most. [speaker003:] [gap] Indeed. It shouldn't be uh very uh visible. [speaker004:] Inside. [speaker002:] You could p you could put it in a logo of the company. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah sure, why no [speaker001:] Well maybe just in the the spot you just pointed out [speaker004:] I i between the round of the R. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because I think it should be in a in an important position where people can see it, because it is the the unique uh idea of our remote, huh, the the speech control. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. [speaker002:] So where do you want to put it? [speaker001:] Well maybe where the one hand [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah but it doesn't makes it uh any more fancy because you get to see uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah actually it does [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] because it you can you can find it better if you use it. [speaker004:] Yeah bu but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's a way for you to uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] So it makes more sense just 'cause other remotes don't have that. [speaker003:] Yeah, okay. [speaker001:] But are we talking about the button, or about the microphone? [speaker002:] About a microphone, [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] there is no button. [speaker001:] because a microphone is very small thing, but you can make it look like it's big [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so as its its really an important function of the remote. [speaker004:] I think the left s under corner should be the best. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] Where isn't [disfmarker] i it isn't most in sight. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. Well put it there. I don't mind. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I think. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That doesn't doesn't really matter. [speaker004:] No. Actually doesn't. [speaker003:] Okay. So? [speaker002:] Alright. Any more uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So well uh [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Interface type. [speaker001:] type, supplements, anything. Yeah, well we already s discussed that, huh, the the LCD [speaker003:] The LCD yeah, uh supplements well the supplement is to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [gap] I think [disfmarker] I thought the, like you said, like scroll [vocalsound] next to the remote isn't that handy. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I think it's better to just [gap] up what you'd like to do on the screen. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] If you want to go back you have to back button go back, [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] if you want to choose audio settings you press audio settings and it goes to that s sub-menu. [speaker003:] Hey, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Um yeah. Yeah [speaker003:] [gap]. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] the the young people do like uh scroll uh [speaker003:] Use the scroll. [speaker004:] Yeah? You do like it? [speaker003:] Yeah I think so too. So why not, on on side. [speaker002:] Or at least [disfmarker] Yeah I don't know if it's really the scroll, but the menu [gap] they like most, and I think you can never get through a menu great with a scroll uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Fast, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah I think it is is faster. [speaker003:] So if you've got a settings, if you [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Becau I think the scroll's easier if you have a lot of options, [speaker003:] Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] but if you don't have a lot of option then [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But you have [disfmarker] it's f uh [speaker003:] You have a lot of options, [speaker002:] we have five or four or something. [speaker003:] because when you use [disfmarker] Yeah you get w when you use uh the settings menu for example to look up some uh uh some channels on your uh on your television, you should scroll scroll down uh on a menu which probably does not fit on your screen. [speaker004:] Y [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. Yeah, okay, true. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So then it's uh very handy to to scroll down, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] you make just a rubber just like uh on your mouse or. Just put it on the side and it's very easy to use. [speaker004:] [gap] Okay, no problem. [speaker001:] And I think I would it would make even more fancy because you have another interesting thing on the side [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] which you can touch [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's also different. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. Well there's our five minutes uh warning. Um any more uh questions about about the design or the user interface or different components, everyone? [speaker004:] Um. No, colours are clear, shape is clear, [speaker001:] Everybody think they can can [speaker004:] material is clear. [speaker003:] Okay, what's the standard colour? [speaker001:] work for that? [speaker004:] And a standard, yeah [speaker001:] Is there a standard colour? [speaker004:] we don't [disfmarker] no we have different colour. [speaker003:] I I [speaker004:] How many colours are we going to [disfmarker] [speaker003:] You got you got different colours, [speaker002:] You should you should have a black one [speaker003:] but you should have a standard colour. [speaker002:] because uh I think black is standard. [speaker004:] Black. Yeah, black I think is is the standard. [speaker003:] Black? With the with the yellow uh [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But if you want to be different, then uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Dark grey, something like this this colour or something. [speaker003:] Just a regular uh remote colour. [speaker004:] Yeah like like yeah. [speaker003:] And then have uh different covers uh to use. [speaker004:] Or or silver. I think it's better to have silver nowadays. [speaker003:] Silver, yeah. [speaker002:] Silver. [speaker004:] I think you see more silver than black. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You see a lot of t uh silver televisions. [speaker001:] But still silver and black are [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Silver rubber. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah the the silver black are our main colours. Yeah. [speaker001:] well silver is new but also traditional, so uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think we have silver, black and between those [vocalsound] is like I dunno s five colours between them or something. [speaker001:] Yeah w what about a yellow thing, I mean it [speaker003:] Yeah y I think it's better to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah it'll be a banana yellow, we have. [speaker001:] could be ugly, but it's definitely fancy. [speaker004:] R red. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] But [speaker003:] Yeah th yeah. That's right. [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker004:] Green, wood, brown. [speaker003:] But if you use uh silver, uh rubber s silver rubber isn't fancy. [speaker004:] Yeah. True. [speaker003:] When you use titanium, silver is fancy, but when you use silver rubber, it isn't fancy. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Silver has to shine, and rubber doesn't shine. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Especially when it's made of soft rubber like this. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You understand? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, I understand. [speaker001:] Yeah I would think about colours like uh red, yellow, green, blue, [speaker004:] Yeah o of course. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] just [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The fruity colours and the autumn colours, like red and brown, [gap] dark red and brown. [speaker003:] Fruity. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Just all kind of colour. [speaker003:] Fruity loops. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Maroon. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] And and do we have to have a normal black one, or uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Who's pinging? [speaker002:] Is it [disfmarker] [speaker004:] No [gap]. [speaker001:] You are pingin Okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You ping. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I thought we Okay, so uh that wraps it up? Everybody knows uh what to do? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well [speaker003:] Well [speaker001:] I wrote it down here. I wrote it down here what to do um. [speaker003:] not what to do. Not what to do. [speaker002:] Well I don't know what to do, but. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] The next meeting is once again in thirty minutes. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Um here are the individual actions, and especially notice that uh the Industrial Designer and the User Interface Designer are going to work together on a prototype drawing on a smart board, [speaker002:] Ooh. [vocalsound] Right. [speaker004:] S [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and of course to all four of us uh specific instructions will be emailed by our personal coach. [speaker004:] tough. We'll be available. [speaker002:] But do we have to [disfmarker] We'll work together, but do we have to stay here, or do we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well I I'd say just wait uh for email and uh find out. [speaker002:] Right. Yes. Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I don't know. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Thin I think we should work [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Okay well that was what I had to say, uh, [speaker002:] Yeah I think [gap]. [speaker001:] final thoughts from anyone, or? [speaker002:] No. [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] We're finished. Okay, well thank you very much. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Finished. [speaker003:] Thank you very much. [speaker002:] So we have to keep talking English now? [vocalsound]

[speaker003:] Um we are [disfmarker] So the meeting will have about the same format as the last time. So [gap] switching over I've just left uh my first two screens [gap]. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Um [vocalsound] mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time. [speaker004:] Okay. Cool. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you? [speaker004:] Mm um. No, I don't think so. [speaker003:] N No? Okay, cool. [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] Then we shall start with a presentation from Raj. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Hi, me Raj, again. Uh in this meeting I I'm going to discuss about the trend watching, uh how these trends is going to affect our market potential and how important is this. So we have to look on this. First of all methodology. The met methodology to find out the trend was incl uh was done in a way [disfmarker] [vocalsound] We have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey, but we also considered the latest fre fashion trends of the market, because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit. So what are our findings? In our [vocalsound] uh in our findings we have seen that [disfmarker] when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for tho fancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good, rather than having a functional look and feel uh good. So this sh this clearly indicates their preference for the design their outlook of the remote controls. So we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor, because this factor is twice as important, the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor. So this factor becomes the most important factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take [disfmarker] in designing our rem uh remote controls. [speaker004:] The last one is the most important one, is it? [speaker002:] No the first one is the [speaker004:] Oh, sorry. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] uh the outlook of the mobile, the it should have a fancy outlook, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] the fancy design [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good, it should have a fancy look and foo feel good. The second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative. We must have some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are. So it uh should be technologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition, something like that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So that indicates our technological advancement. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] And the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] like it shouldn't be too much co complicated, there shouldn't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remote control, it shouldn't be too complicated uh like this way. And it should be uh [disfmarker] and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy to understand in their local language, something. So that they could know how to use these remote controls. When we did uh f fashions uh, recent fashion uh [disfmarker] our recent fashion update shows that [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Sorry. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Ah yeah? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I was just reading fruit and vegetables. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Hard to know how we are going to incorporate that. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Y yeah uh yeah, we have to, because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes, shoes, [gap] and everything with fruits and vegetables, [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] because the g world is now changing it's trend towards organic, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] becoming more and more organic, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] becoming [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We should make a big sponge lemon, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and then it'd be it would be yellow. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Th that's very good. [speaker001:] It's [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. So something like that we we should do. [speaker004:] Glow-in-the-dark. Okay. [speaker002:] And people uh the f feel of the material is expected to be spongy rather than just having a plastic look, hard look. [speaker004:] Well, that's good. [speaker001:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] That's what we kind of predicted anyway. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. Yeah. So so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So that should also be taken into consideration. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So these are my views. [speaker004:] Okay. Okay, the spongy, not real spongy, [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] you can [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No it ca [vocalsound] y a [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Do you think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff? [speaker002:] The rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposable that we can take into co [speaker004:] Okay. Quite disposable. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] 'Cause we It shouldn't be have any harm to the environment also, [speaker004:] Oh okay. [speaker002:] because our company is very well [gap] for taking all these concerns into consideration, [speaker003:] Alright, okay. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. [speaker002:] so we don't want to have any harm to the society, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Fashion. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Cool. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Mm 'kay. [speaker002:] So that's all. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Fruit and veg, well there you go. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Just what I think of when I think of a remote control. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm. A remote control? Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker004:] And were there any factors that weren't important in the survey, that they said we don't want? [speaker002:] S uh we didn't find out any such point. [speaker004:] Or was it just [disfmarker] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh yes, there could be, but we couldn't find out any, so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-mm-mm-mm. [speaker004:] Cool. [speaker003:] Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. [speaker004:] F, what is it? Um. [speaker003:] Function F eight. [speaker004:] [gap] yeah. [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah. [gap] [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] No signal. [speaker002:] Oh no, [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker004:] Is that [gap]? [speaker001:] No, it's got it's got it. [speaker002:] Yeah, uh yeah, uh yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Excuse me. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] [gap] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay, and then F five, right? [speaker003:] Uh, yeah [gap]. [speaker004:] Okay. Um okay, so the interface concept um. Yeah. The interface specification, what people [disfmarker] um how they interact with it basically, I think. Um so the method, we looked at existing designs, what are the [disfmarker] what's good about them, what's bad about them, um I looked at their flaws, so we're going to look at their flaws, everything. Um and what [vocalsound] the survey told us and what we think would be good, so a bit of imagination. [speaker003:] Mm 'kay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh the findings, I've got some pictures to show you as well. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap] either. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay, so most remote controls use graphical interface, where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something. [speaker003:] Uh okay. [speaker004:] Um and we also found that there's inconsistent layout, which makes it confusing. So I think for our remote control [disfmarker] There is some inconsistency already in [disfmarker] ec existing in [disfmarker] between remote controls, but I think standard kind of um shape and uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something, I think, people find that important,'cause then it's easy to use. [speaker003:] Right, okay. Yeah. [speaker004:] And we've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls to show you. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Do I press Escape F five? Or just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Excellent. Uh no just escape [speaker004:] Escape, okay. [speaker003:] should uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Um, oh I still haven't got my glasses on. Yeah, okay. So these are the [disfmarker] some of the pictures of existing ones. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Wow. [speaker004:] I'll just walk you through them. This one is a voice recognition. And that's the kind of idea we're going for. [speaker003:] 'Kay. Looks pretty complicated. [speaker004:] There's um an LCD thing, which we thought could [disfmarker] I thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us. [speaker003:] Right, okay. [speaker004:] This one is [disfmarker] got a kind of scroll like a mouse, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm, like the middle button. [speaker004:] which [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Um and [disfmarker] But I'm not exactly sure how you'd use that, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] like would the computer come [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Ah it's kinda like scrolling [disfmarker] uh right, well, if I s if I'm thinking of the right one, I've got the same thing in front of my monitor, you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um [vocalsound] menu item that you require, you press the middle of the scroll. [speaker004:] Uh-huh, that's like the LCD one, is it? [speaker003:] Right, okay. [speaker004:] But the one below that has got like [vocalsound] a little scroll function on the side. But I presume that the functions must come up on the TV screen. [speaker003:] Yeah, presumably. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] I think that's what that is. So these are just a few ideas. Again that's just quite boring shape, grey, looks quite space-agey, but too many buttons, I think on that one. [speaker003:] Yeah, looks like uh looks like something out of a jet. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh it looks threatening. [speaker004:] Yeah, it does look kind of dangerous. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] It looks like [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Um this one I thought was really cool. [speaker001:] yeah [gap]. [speaker004:] It's w it's got the programmability function that we talked about. You can put it in there, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] it's for your kids, and it's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] And that's really easy to use, bright, so I like this one lot for our design. I think something like that would be good. [speaker001:] Wow. [speaker003:] Yeah, I m I mean the one thing I think about about these ones is um these kl uh secured areas um [vocalsound], I've seen a lot of them with the the cover missing. [speaker004:] Of course yellow. [vocalsound] Right, yeah. [speaker003:] So like have it hinge rather than sort of clip on or whatever. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Um so maybe that could be built into one of the things and it comes up on the TV or something. And this one, the over-sized one, I don't know about you, but I think it's a bit too gimmicky. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I don't think that will sell very well. [speaker003:] I mean is that not sort of to assist the blind or something, is it? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I guess so. I don't know. I think that's a bit [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Strange. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Then d blind don't watch TV. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah exactly. [speaker003:] No they do, they do. They listen to it. Yeah. [speaker001:] They do? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. And um this one [vocalsound] is just pointing out. I like [vocalsound] some of these things um the the raised symbols and everything, but [gap] pointing out um that this one the volume it is kind of pressing down, but it would actually go up, because of the shape. [speaker003:] Right, okay. [speaker004:] So that could [disfmarker] that's a bit confusing. Um but the buttons on this I think are [disfmarker] it's just showing you how you can have different different um buttons. They don't have to be all the same. So that's quite cool. Um. [speaker003:] 'Kay but people tend to recognise certain shapes to do certain things anyway, don't they? [speaker004:] Yeah, exactly. Um F five. Yes. So there are some of the findings. So we need to combine those ones um [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and I've just got [vocalsound] an e-mail from our technical department saying that they have broken through with some new speech recognition software that you can program in. [speaker003:] Brilliant. That's handy. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Um yeah it is, just in time, very handy. Um so [vocalsound] I think maybe incorporating that in our design would be good. It's [disfmarker] you program it like you say, record, um and then, play, and then, record, play machine, and stuff like that, [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] so that's [disfmarker] And it's much [disfmarker] Yeah. So that's quite cool. Uh personal preferences just some imagination, the raised symbols I thought were good, the LCD, it does look smart, but I think maybe for our budget, do you think that would be a bit too expensive to have the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] The LCD [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and the other stuff uh, I think. [speaker004:] And the speech recognition, 'cause I think we're definitely going for the speech recognition, are we? [speaker002:] But in our market survey we have seen that people are willing to pay more, but they want the quality, they want f fancy look, they want some new design, something new. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. But our budget, we've [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh yeah. [speaker003:] It's still it's still got to get within our twelve fifty, you know. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So even if we increase our cost little bit, within uh some limits, and we give something new technological advancement as well as new design with fancy outlook, I think we will meet the requirements and we will be able to have a good sales in the market. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. Okay. I'm not sure if the [disfmarker] if [vocalsound] for twenty five Euros uh per uh twelve Euros fifty m manufacturing cost, [gap]. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Ben bana [speaker003:] Yeah. I can't see tha Although, th I mean to be to be sure they have got [disfmarker] I mean they are going crazy with the LCD technology now, [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] The LCD. [speaker003:] so that you've got your LCD TVs and everything so maybe the small [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But I mean like I I [disfmarker] the black and white, I guess, it just doesn't look funky enough. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] Um but, I mean, like even mobile phones or whatever have [disfmarker] now have colour LCD screens, w I ju I mean [speaker004:] Yeah. S [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] I wouldn't know about the costs of them. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. [speaker001:] But uh price price not withstanding um, is it too complicated, is it gonna be too much just overload? [speaker003:] Twelve fifty. [speaker002:] And the [disfmarker] Uh i it will be easy because there will be, on LCD s screen, there will be different frent icons, they can just click ok okay, whatever they wa [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Possibly. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's the thing, because [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But but the thing is when you use a remote control, you never look at it, right? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] You're looking at the TV [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and and it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's true, yeah. [speaker001:] It just seems kind of like a a needless th [speaker004:] And one of the survey findings was that they want it easy to use, so I think I'm not sure about the LCD. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker004:] It's a it's great, it's a good idea, but for our budget and for the thing we're trying to go for eas easy to use, it's not the thing we should go for, I think. Child-friendly, I thought this was good, as you pointed out the um [vocalsound] the bit, it often goes missing especially with children, but it's a good shape and the organic is kind of [disfmarker] we could make a vegetabley kind of round shape, I think. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] So which vegetable? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well I mean we could make a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, I know, carrot [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Well, si since we're going for the uh the k the sort of company colours, I think your lemon wasn't that far s [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [vocalsound] The the lemon. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well what are the options? [speaker003:] And if it doesn't work you know, we've just made a lemon. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] But we don't want it to be [disfmarker] Yeah. Um the child-friendly, yeah. Easy to use, it seems quite easy to use. I like the d the different shapes of the buttons and stuff. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] I think that's a good idea to go for. [speaker003:] I like I like the colourful buttons as well. [speaker004:] Yeah. And the mouse one, I thought it was a good idea, because people use mo mice mouses now with the scrolling thing. Um. [speaker003:] Yeah. I mean we are marketing to sort of twenty five to thirty five, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] so most people will have come in contact with that kind of use. [speaker004:] S yeah. So they'd be able to use that um, as I said I think i I'd presume it would come up on the screen. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Um so there you go. [speaker003:] And that means tha that means you get to bump that bit to the TV maker, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker004:] So that's um the user interface [speaker003:] 'Kay. [speaker004:] design. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [gap] [speaker004:] So okay, I'll take this out now then. [speaker001:] Okay. Um so [speaker004:] There you go. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I guess there are a lot of options that we're gonna have to choose from among, [speaker003:] Yeah, looks like it. [speaker001:] and I'll I'll give you the uh, [vocalsound] I guess, technical considerations for those. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Uh [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] And I'm gonna use the whiteboard, just 'cause we haven't used it [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] Yeah, I was just thinking the self same thing. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Right. So, the way I'm gonna do this [vocalsound] is uh we're gonna take a look at some old remote controls, see how they work, uh reuse the the vital kind of um essential pieces of it, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and then we'll throw in our new innovations um [vocalsound] and keep it all within budget. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Magic man. [speaker001:] So uh yeah, looking inside a a very simple remote control. Um this is what they sent me. 'Kay. Here's uh the competition, I suppose. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Um you open it up, there's a circuit board inside, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] um [vocalsound] and there's a a chip, a processor, the TA one one eight three five, which um receives input from the buttons, [speaker003:] So this is a standard off the shelf kind of a chip, is it? [speaker001:] and ch Right, it's very [disfmarker] they're very cheap remote. This remote costs nothing, you know. Um so that takes a signals from the buttons and translates it into a sequence of pulses that it then sends to the to the amplifier, which is made of some transistors and amplifiers, op-amps, and then that gets sent to the uh to the LED light, which I can kinda see is that little red light bulb at the end, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] and that sends out the infrared uh light signal to the television. Oh here it is. [vocalsound] Um so this is kind of the the bear essentials that we need to have in our remote control, because it it defines the uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay. So can we make them to pretty much any size we like or is there a minimum or? [speaker001:] R Um no, I mean this is a very old one, so now with the new technology this is a a minimally small and cheap thing to make. [speaker003:] They gotta be [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Almost a key-ring. [gap] [speaker001:] Right. So this is what we need to have for certain. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker001:] Um. So you know, as we said, we got the outer casing, which we have to decide, you know, what's it gonna be, um the board we have to use basically uh the same set-up, processor, um we'll probably use the more advanced processor than they had, amplifier and transmitter are all standard. Um so for the casing, uh this an e-mail I got from our manufacturing team uh, you know, we have a bunch of options from wood, titanium, rubber, plastic, whatnot, um latex, double-curved, curved. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So lots of choices, [speaker003:] 'Kay. [speaker001:] what do we think? Uh or sponge, I guess, isn't on there, right. [speaker003:] Well. [speaker004:] Mm. I'm not sure about the sponge. [speaker001:] Organic sponge. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well, I mean like la latex has a kinda spongy feeling to it, doesn't it. Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh yeah, it's very elasticy for sure. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And that would k also give it kinda durability and [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Um. [speaker003:] and ther that's also f sorta relatively cheap to cast. [speaker001:] Yeah so [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Um [vocalsound] so maybe s uh a sort of uh plastic [disfmarker] initial plastic with a a latex kinda sheath? [speaker001:] Okay so, here are a a plastic, uh latex [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I like the rubber, the stress balls, I think, you know, that could be a bit of a gimmick like it's good to hold and [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh right, okay. [speaker001:] Oh right. [speaker003:] I don't know what that stuff is. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So something with give to it. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] And that might be quite durable and easy to chuck around. [speaker001:] And and the colour is yellow, right? [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker003:] Or at least incorporating, yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] y [vocalsound] yellow incorporated, yeah. [speaker001:] Yellow [vocalsound], okay. Um. [speaker003:] I mean I forgot i we're sort of uh [disfmarker] I don't know what other standard silver kind of [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think [disfmarker] Mm. [speaker003:] Other parts or uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, the buttons w like, 'cause there's gonna be the the cover the the rubber or the plastic casing and then the buttons in probably two different colours [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] or i if we're having buttons actually, [speaker001:] Mm' kay. So yellow for the body, [speaker004:] I don [speaker003:] Um. [speaker001:] and then what colour for the buttons? [speaker003:] Um I quite like the multi-coloured buttons myself. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So multi-coloured buttons. [speaker004:] You do have ones like um play [vocalsound] could be green or on and off is red, and stuff like that, yeah. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah or yeah a limit uh maybe even just a limited multi-colour so it it doesn't look too childish, perhaps. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Makes it easy to use. Yeah, that's true, because that blue one did look quite hardish. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Although I mean this uh uh also comes to shape as well. I mean if we are gonna make it a novel [disfmarker] I mean double-curved sounds good to me if we're talking about sorta ergonomic and easy use, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [speaker003:] a bit comfier, you know. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay so the shape we wanna go [disfmarker] Um how exactly? Maybe double [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Like uh [vocalsound] an hour glass kind of figure, is that what you're thinking of, or just like a [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah it's uh, yeah, that that'd be [disfmarker] that's sort of comfortable to hold, easy to hold so you don't drop it. [speaker004:] It's not [disfmarker] [speaker001:] What about a banana? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] We could make novelty remote controls. [speaker001:] Yeah? Okay, like we could have a big banana shaped remote control, [speaker003:] Well, yeah, I mean like [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] 'cause it's yellow fruit, [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] right? [speaker003:] Mm and a lemon might be a little hard to grip. Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. But then how would you point it? [speaker002:] Ah [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker002:] yeah. Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] How would you point it? [speaker001:] Oh i it doesn't matter which end you point, I guess. [speaker004:] What [disfmarker] [speaker001:] We could have a little LEDs on each end. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I appreciate this idea, [speaker003:] They only cost pennies. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] because then this [disfmarker] [vocalsound] this will help us in our advertisement also [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and we can relate with fruits and vegetables, the people's choices. That what our data shows that, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so this w this w [speaker004:] [gap] y I'm I'm not sure about the banana idea. [speaker003:] Huh? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um. [speaker001:] So a spongy banana re [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I mean that that th [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Rubber banana. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] does it does seem a bit uh again childish maybe. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay, okay. [speaker004:] I think maybe just draw on the kind of fruit and vegetable shape. And what else did you say about fashions? What was trendy? [speaker002:] Uh the fashion trend shows that fruits and vegetables, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] S [speaker001:] See [disfmarker] [speaker002:] like people uh now [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And sponginess. [speaker004:] And spongy, yeah. [speaker001:] So maybe an an unidentifiable fruit or fiable fruit or vegetable [speaker002:] Spongy. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] like so it would have a stem perhaps and a [speaker004:] Maybe, yeah. [speaker001:] maybe a [disfmarker] it'd be s axially symmetric. [speaker003:] Huh. [speaker004:] Like what's what's that [vocalsound], I don't even know the name of it, some kind of, you know where it's like [disfmarker] looks like a little snowman kind of thing. I don't know the name of that. [speaker001:] So it'd look like this kinda. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's what I was thinking. [speaker001:] Like a gourd almost, or a squash of some sort? [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker004:] Yeah, maybe that's what they are. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] 'Cause that you can hold it in like the bottom bit and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, and it has a a clear top and bottom so y so you could say, you know, it transmits from this end. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, why the hell not. [vocalsound] Let's [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I don't know. [speaker003:] that'll make us fifty million Euros. [speaker004:] What do you guy [disfmarker] What do you think? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Um. Well, I guess it's kind of dra uh you don't necessarily have to have it sort of clearly identified as a fruit just to have that kind of fruitish shape, [speaker004:] No. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] yeah? [speaker002:] Yeah, then only we can relate it with something. [speaker003:] Yeah, we can relate it by advertising or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. Exactly. [speaker001:] Okay, so double-curved, single-curved, what do we feel? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Or we can do something, we can design two three shapes and we can have a public survey, let the public choose what they want. [speaker004:] Uh-huh. [speaker003:] There's a good man. There's a good idea. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay um, I guess, since you're the marketing guy. [speaker002:] Yeah, sure. I will be happy to do that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] We'll uh [disfmarker] Okay, we could do that. Um. [speaker004:] Okay. And buttons would, did we say? Uh different shapes of buttons? [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Um I l I su I mean for the specific functions, you know, up and down, uh play, stop. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] Okay, so [speaker003:] They've got, I mean, they've got standard sort of intuitive um [speaker001:] so buttons. [speaker003:] things that are always used. [speaker004:] [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay, just like that. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] That's cool. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I like it. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Um. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] With the scroll-wheel or no? [speaker004:] Yeah, what about the scroll wheel and speech recognition? [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh speech recognition, I think, so we need a microphone presumably. [speaker001:] Okay uh I could put the microphone here. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Okay there's the microphone. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Where should I put the microphone? [speaker003:] I mean ho h h wel are we sure that scroll wheel does give ease of use? [speaker004:] Yeah, I'm not sure. Um I mean those ideas I saw were just for inspiration, I think. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Glad, we're not doing this for real. [speaker004:] Um yeah, I can [disfmarker] no I'm not sure. [speaker001:] Okay, well we can do some user test with scroll-wheels, right? [speaker004:] I couldn Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] And uh I think if this this new software for the sound recognition is [gap] the microphone [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. So should the microphone be just anywhere on it or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I would put it sort of sub-centrally, so it's [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay there's the mic. [speaker003:] So it can be sort of held and w [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] That's cool. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [disfmarker] We really need really gonna need to hold it, if it's gonna be voice recognition. [speaker001:] Um n well we can [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Whoops. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Oops. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Um. [speaker003:] Um. [speaker004:] So let's not use the whiteboard any more. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Upsidaisy. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Oops, sorry. Okay. [speaker004:] And uh so what else was there? Um the [disfmarker] What about the glow-in-the-dark thing, the strip around it? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Are we just gonna leave that? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I s I still like it. Um but that's me. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You still like it. 'Cause we've got the uh technological innovation with the speech recognition system. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker003:] Yes, or maybe it's just going a bit uh too far. I mean we are pushing it probably with funny fruit shapes. [speaker004:] 'Cause um it could [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker003:] Um don't wanna sort of overkill. [speaker004:] Especially with yellow [vocalsound]. [vocalsound] Mm. I dunno. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] 'Cause I mean like uh if we [disfmarker] I mean how good is the speech recognition thing? Do we want to go for buttons at all, do we want to just have a device that maybe sits and pretends it's a fruit? [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Then you put it in the fruit bowl? [speaker001:] [gap] [gap] [vocalsound] They can work from a [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, you know, and then you just tal I mean like everybody's got fruit bowl in front of the telly. [speaker001:] You don't have to hold it. Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I it could even encourage healthier habits for television watchers, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] you know they have uh fruits all round them. [speaker003:] Yeah. Make them make them think of fruit, yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Now just make sure they don't eat the remote. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean uh [vocalsound] some uh I [speaker004:] Yeah, do we need buttons? [speaker003:] l like think of a fruit that could sit sort of independently on its own like uh, I dunno, an apple. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] Then it's just apple so sort of [disfmarker] Uh, yellow apples though [disfmarker] Hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I quite like the shape. I quite like the design of that, uh 'cause that could sit on its own and it's quite [disfmarker] got a quite steady base. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah. Okay, yeah, that's good. Groovy. [speaker001:] Okay. But yeah [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Um and as we say we n we don't wanna be too ridiculous with the fruit things you know. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, [gap]. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker001:] But yeah, about the speech thing, it doesn't have to be hand held or close. It can sit at a distance and pick it up still. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] So [vocalsound] I mean like you could actually [disfmarker] Yeah, gives you the options. [speaker002:] Or we can [disfmarker] we can do one thing, we can just have a remote control and casings of different different shapes, different fruit shapes in such a way that a any casing can be could be fit into this mobile general piece. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So whatever people want, like if somebody want it in banana shape, we will put that casing onto that mobile phone, okay, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] So a selection of casings. [speaker002:] it will look l [vocalsound] Uh yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker002:] In that w [speaker003:] It kind of fi it fits with f fits with marketing um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] 'cause you said about disposable, didn't you? [speaker002:] S s sorry? [speaker004:] You said about disposable earli people want disposable things so we could do that, like have a choice. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker002:] Uh like if this is a like if this is a mobile phone uh we will design casing in such a way like half of, we need not to have a full cover, we will just have a half of cover, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] okay? [speaker003:] Like like mobiles, yeah. [speaker002:] If somebody wants it i in banana shape, we will fit banana shape casing onto that, so it will give a banana shape look. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] If somebody wanted in apple shape we will design that, we will put [disfmarker] we will put apple shape casing on that. It will give apple shape look. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] So in that way you can have any, that means whatever you want, [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] without [disfmarker] uh yeah. [speaker004:] We still need the buttons in the same places thought, [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker004:] don't we? [speaker002:] button will be on the upper side, buttons will be the on the upper side. [speaker003:] You can standardise those, I mean. [speaker004:] [gap] Oh, that's the other side. Oh, okay. [speaker002:] Yeah, buttons will be on the upper side, lower side we will just put the casing, so half of that will be look the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Oh, half a fruit. Oh, okay, okay. [speaker002:] Yeah, not not the upper side. So from lower you can, it means while you are holding of [disfmarker] from this side you c you can have banana look or apple look, whatever. [speaker004:] Okay, okay. [speaker002:] So in that way we need not to d have different different shape mobiles everything, we will just design casings fruit shape. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah yeah. [speaker003:] I think tho I think if you're gonna have a facia then you'd want to have it so that it does go over the buttons, [speaker002:] And [disfmarker] [speaker003:] 'cause when [disfmarker] if you think about it if they're wanting it, 'cause they want to look at it, if they're using it, and what they want to look at is facing away from them. It doesn't really [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm mm. [speaker003:] You know 'cause that'd be in the palm of their hand and they wouldn't be able to see it, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] unless you have sort of [disfmarker] you got the buttons options on one side, and you get the facia on the other side with a microphone so that you can place it face down. And you've got the facia, and you can just talk at the [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Maybe. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [gap] Okay, um so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So you've narrowed it down to half a dozen options. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] s I guess we decided on material, right? So that that spongy latex rubber everything feel, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and the colours we got down, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and the shape, maybe we'll just make it kinda mix and match type of shape or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Well, um because [disfmarker] Well, I I'm not sure if we should go so far in the whole fruit thing, because I think we should maybe just take the inspiration from the fruit and uh because [vocalsound] what [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay, so we stick with what we've got there. [speaker004:] Yeah, w I think wh wha would [disfmarker] we're trying to get to twenty five, thirty five year olds who want it quite trendy as well they said. They wanted something that looks fancy and I think maybe fruit could be a bit of a [disfmarker] too much of a gimmick, but something ergonomically shaped and organic, like good to hold, based on fruits and natural things like that, [speaker003:] Mm 'kay. [speaker004:] because al already we're going a bit gaudy with the yellow, you know. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I mean we could make it nice pale yellow. [speaker003:] Well, it's kind of gotta be our company's yellow. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] So again I mean like we could have, uh I mean, we could quite easily have the the main body be a different [speaker004:] Yeah. Maybe we could have that pale yellow and then an outside bit bright yellow with, you said, the logan the slogan. [speaker003:] colour, but have [disfmarker] kinda going round, yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Because [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Um I mean e even if [disfmarker] I mean not necessarily that the um the whole body has to be of the company colour, so you know um blue and yellow tend to go to we well together. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So you have the main body blue with the yellow logo and slogan running up one side of it kind of thing. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] W sort of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Great. [vocalsound] Um as for the energy source um, you know, almost every remote control uses just batteries, but we don't have to be limited by that. We can use a hand-dynamo. Um I don't know what that means, [speaker003:] Uh It's I think it's basically the more you move i it, it's got a wee thing inside that just kinda [vocalsound] powers it. [speaker001:] we crank it? [vocalsound] Right, it's like those watches that you c [speaker003:] Uh yeah. [speaker001:] So, this might be an idea for something that people really wanna grab, you can shake it if it's out of power. [speaker004:] Oh, a d a dynamo? [speaker002:] Yeah, [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I like that, yeah. [speaker002:] [gap] [speaker004:] Yeah, like with those watches that you kind of twist. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah that's quite cool. [speaker001:] Okay. So if it if it's not working, I guess people's natural reaction anyway is to just shake the thing. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] You shake it and scream at it. Yeah. [speaker002:] But but do you think that it will be a good idea to use dynamo, tha these type of cells? [speaker004:] Yeah, it is, yeah. [speaker002:] Because then people have to, well like if the cell is out of bat [speaker003:] It does leave them with an obligation to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, to [speaker003:] Especially if they want to use it uh uh sp uh specifically as um voice activated. [speaker002:] mo Yeah. Yeah, [speaker003:] Then if it's just sitting on the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] because most of the people [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] Yeah, then they have to pick it up and then activate it and then [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay, okay. [speaker004:] That's true. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Right um what are the other options? [speaker001:] Uh there's solar power. Um. [speaker002:] Uh, solar power will w also not be a good idea, because then they have to keep m their mobiles outside in solar energy, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and the days when there is no sola sunlight [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'm I'm with uh Raj on that, [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] I think, you know, [speaker001:] Okay, so probably just [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] I've got I've got no I've got a north facing house, there's not really ever sun coming in my window. [speaker002:] What we w yeah. [speaker004:] But w [vocalsound] like just normal light? [speaker002:] I think we should [disfmarker] a rechargeable [vocalsound] battery will be a good idea. [speaker003:] Oh that's true. [speaker002:] They can they can recharge it. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I mean I w I w uh that idea that I thought [vocalsound] um just on the basis of like ridding them of batteries and that kind of bother [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] And we're a very environmentally friendly company, aren't we as well? [speaker003:] is having a, yeah, having a rechargeable stand, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] so that not only it doubles as a stand, but um for using it as [disfmarker] uh recharging it, but also for using it as sound recognition. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker004:] Like like a hand [disfmarker] like one of those portable phones kind of thing. [speaker003:] Yeah that kind of thing. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's [disfmarker] Yeah, exactly. [speaker001:] Okay. So uh a rechargeable battery [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Rechargeable. [speaker001:] Um the user interface, the buttons, I guess we talked about this already. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] [gap]. What's chip on print? [speaker001:] Um. [speaker003:] What's [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Hmm? [speaker003:] Sorry, never mind. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Uh th the uh the electronics um, basically the more features we add um [disfmarker] Oops, this one. So the more features we add the fancier chips we need to buy and put in, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] which adds to the cost as you can expect. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Um. But uh I think we can keep it all under budget. So uh yes, so the speech thing you said our our techno our research and development department came up with some break-through. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So just in time. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker004:] Just in time. [speaker003:] and if we if we're just having buttons and the speech then we're getting our cheapest option of chipping. [speaker001:] Right, right. [speaker003:] That's good. Uh woah. [speaker001:] Yeah, [speaker003:] Okay, we're we're kind of uh we're kind of um [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and keeping the LCD screen out. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Excuse m I've just deleted that whole thing. Um we're kind of running out of time, so if you could [disfmarker] Uh. [vocalsound] Was that you? Um that was [disfmarker] your bit's covered, [speaker001:] Huh? [speaker003:] I just dele I just accidentally deleted what I was supposed to say next. [speaker001:] Oh yeah that was that was it. [speaker002:] Uh excuse me, Bri [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker003:] Um, yeah. [speaker001:] So control F eight, right? [speaker003:] Oh, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, mine seems to have turned off. I can't do anything. [speaker003:] And I just touch the pad. [speaker002:] You just touch the pad, yeah. [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] It's actually shut down. [speaker002:] No? [speaker004:] It's on, but there's nothing on the screen. [speaker003:] Okay, um now what we have [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Try uh flipping the screen down [gap]. [speaker003:] uh our next meeting's in half an hour [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker003:] and what I would like you guys to do is work on giving me a model in clay. [speaker001:] Oh, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I get to do it, too. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. It's you guys. Yeah. [speaker004:] Cool. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Oh neat. [speaker003:] So um, you know I mean, luckily we chose a nice simple shape. [speaker004:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Um and further instructions will be sent by your personal coaches. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] [gap] That's great. [speaker001:] Okay. Save everything to the shared documents, is that right? [speaker003:] Uh yeah, I hope I can recover this, 'cause I've accidentally deleted it. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Which doesn't really help me much. [speaker004:] I think, I've saved mine already. [speaker003:] Yeah, can you save that [disfmarker] uh send that last one again, please, Raj, as I still can't find it on the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. Uh it was under a different name. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I will show you, in shared documents. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker002:] Uh working components [gap]. Oh, you didn't get that. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] I will send new. [speaker003:] Okay, thank you. [speaker002:] Uh I'll put it in shared documents, again. [speaker003:] Um yeah, Project, Project Documents. [speaker002:] Project documents, sorry, I put it in the shared documents. [speaker003:] Uh right, that's that's the that [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh yeah. [speaker003:] it goes there automatically if you put it in Project Documents. Project Documents is on the um [vocalsound] desktop. [speaker002:] Right, that's great. But I cou can't open that, because it w asks uh for some username or password. [speaker001:] Oh [gap]. [speaker003:] Really? [gap] [speaker002:] [gap] I'll show you. [speaker001:] Uh these lapel mics are trouble. [speaker002:] Ts [speaker003:] Oh right, I think um [disfmarker] Hold on. [speaker002:] Sorry. Uh. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I don't know if y it it just ca it just came up on my um on my agenda. S [vocalsound] Um presumably there's clay somewhere. Um. [vocalsound] Four. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's great. [speaker003:] Whoops. Light, light, please. Light. [vocalsound] Right, there you go. [speaker002:] Yeah, th thank you. [speaker003:] Yeah, quite. And we're using this our basic chip set, so it's all good. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh sorry. [speaker001:] Are we done with our meeting? [speaker002:] Uh excuse me, Brian. [speaker003:] Um I think we're almost done, yeah. [speaker002:] You have to keep your pen separate, because I used your pen. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Oh oops. Sorry man. [speaker002:] S [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh okay, still didn't manage to get down all the last bits so we had rechargeable and [disfmarker] Uh. Apples. [vocalsound] Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. 'Kay, so we came up with that, that's okay. What's supplements? Supplements. Uh [vocalsound] uh. [vocalsound] See. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Cool. Fun. [speaker003:] I shoulda [gap] something like that. If I kn see I I knew that. I shoulda sort of engineered it so we k ended up making a diffi difficult shape. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Just for cruelty. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. Star fruit. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] I wonder if they mean like literally make it, sort of buttons and everything. [speaker002:] So sh should [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] Should we leave now, Brian? [speaker004:] Oh yeah, we can do buttons. [speaker002:] Or we are going to discuss something? [speaker003:] Um. Uh no, I think that's us our discussion over unless anybody's got questions [vocalsound] or confusions, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] No I'm good. [speaker003:] 'cause I'm confused. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Huh? [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Excuse me. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Um uh we'll probably get questionnaire in a minute, it's a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Sorry. Thank you. Yeah. [speaker003:] There we go. Warning, finish meeting now. [speaker002:] So. [speaker003:] I rounded it up far too fast. [vocalsound] Um [vocalsound]. Where are we going? My Documents, that's not what I want. My Project Documents. [vocalsound] There we go.

[speaker001:] [vocalsound] I'm proud of it. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay. This is our final meeting, the detailed design meeting. And again I'll take minutes. The [disfmarker] what we have to get through in this meeting is firstly the prototype presentation from you two, so you can show us what you've been working on so diligently. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Um then [speaker002:] It does look very cool. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] then Cat's going to present the evaluation criteria that we're going to be evaluating this against. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Then I need to say some st a few things about finance, 'cause we have to check that it's within the finance criteria. Um and then we'll be making sure that our product fits both the evaluation criteria from Cat and the financial limits. Um and then we uh will have a brief evaluation of the whole process of production and design that we've been through. So we've got forty minutes. S [speaker002:] And then do we get to make a remote control? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] 'Cause we missed out. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] So [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] it's now [disfmarker] I guess that we're supposed to start at fifteen thirty five, so we've got until four fifteen. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker003:] Is that right? [speaker001:] How how much do we have, forty minutes? [speaker004:] Yeah, about four fifteen, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] until about four fifteen. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] So yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay, so. [speaker003:] Go for it. Do you want [disfmarker] [speaker004:] So, you said um [disfmarker] are are we starting with the the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] Presentation. [speaker004:] so will you maybe start with like the mm the shape and things and and then I will explain the the user interface th uh things, like the buttons and the scrolling things and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Okay. [vocalsound] Okay. So um basically going with our trend of vegetables and [vocalsound] [disfmarker] we selected the colour and approximate shape of banana. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] You think bananas are a safe thing to use? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] It's a bit um phallic. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. Um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Well, but it's it's just an a approximation. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Dual use, perfect. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Dual use, perfect. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh, [vocalsound] [gap] your remote control Oh that's just bad. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Does it vibrate when you press the buttons? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Um so basically it's the it's the flip open thing again. [speaker003:] Sorry, sorry. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So now we we have the [disfmarker] okay, so Ma Maarika will explain you the user interface there. And it flips open on the side, so it opens like that. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] And we have the user interface o in here [speaker003:] Wow. [speaker001:] and uh [vocalsound] the the LCD and and the scroll are inside. Um well, everything else is probably user interface, so. Yeah, yeah. [speaker004:] Uh yeah. [speaker003:] And it's [disfmarker] the whole thing's made of rubber, is that [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh yeah. Yeah, it has, yeah. [speaker004:] Rubber. Yeah, [gap]. [speaker002:] Is it to scale, or do you think you can make it a bit smaller? [speaker004:] Um it could be made a bit smaller, and and of course it would be [gap] and [disfmarker] [vocalsound] yeah, but um one thing we actually kind of um forgot while designing, that one side was supposed to be rounder, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, [speaker004:] so we said the back side round, yeah. [speaker001:] well, but i since it's made of rubber anyway. I I think it's it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] It l does look like the [gap] curvy and then the whole shape's curvy, so I would say that this curvy does look quite like a vegetable. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. [speaker004:] And it's spongy as well. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I wasn't very keen on that, but yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So [vocalsound] so uh the user interface as as we discussed last time uh mm on on the [vocalsound] on the cover we just have the very basic things. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Huh. Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So we have that n uh channels here starting from um uh one two three [disfmarker] there would be numbers in in the [disfmarker] on the actual one. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] So it's four, up to four, up to seven, up to nine and zero, z zero here. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Six seven eight nine. I like that. [speaker004:] Yeah. And then, well this is on off button. It's it's quite standard mm place for it and and also the colour is quite often red, so it's it's kind of user friendly. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] And then these ones would be for flipping the channels back and [disfmarker] like the previous one and the next one. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. [speaker004:] And and we would also have a l little um thing saying here, previous and ne prevon prevon next. [speaker002:] So where's the volume? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] The volume is is scrolling. On the side, [speaker001:] It's on the side. [speaker004:] this one. [speaker002:] Ah, you did get that in then, [speaker004:] Yeah you just do it like this. [speaker002:] mm-hmm. [speaker004:] And and and it's it's on the back is mm cover or back lid, because if you flip it open, you can still do the scrolling here. [speaker002:] Oh okay, [gap]. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] See? So the volume is [vocalsound] you just scroll, but then once you flip it open, [vocalsound] okay, there there you have the screen [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and and you have the mm [vocalsound] spinning wheel with options to choose. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] You can move back and forth and then if you need to m choose something on the screen, you just push the cen mm the middle button. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Cool. Oh, the thing we forgot was like a mute button. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Uh no, we we'd not put [gap] [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] A mute button. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Well, [gap] we'll have this on the screen, on the display. [speaker001:] so on on the cover we have the the bare essentials. [speaker003:] Y or you could have it [disfmarker] so you [disfmarker] on the wheel if you [disfmarker] [speaker002:] On the wheel, like if you hold the wheel down then it will mute. [speaker001:] Uh on the LCD we r you know, the main menu will have various options. [speaker004:] Well, but the but the mute [disfmarker] yeah, the scrolling is kind of you have to scroll all the way to make it mute, right? [speaker003:] But if you hold it in, [speaker002:] Yeah, but it's a scroll and click, isn't it? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] if it's a scroll and click so you hold it in? [speaker004:] Okay, yeah, okay. [speaker002:] Okay, cool. So that [gap] that solves the whole mute issue. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] And okay, so i so the the voice recognition is also just part of it. You can't really see it in the interface. [speaker003:] [gap] no. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, it's hidden in there somewhere. [speaker004:] Yeah. And we do have the logo on it as well. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm, very good. [speaker004:] So I think it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And it's [disfmarker] [vocalsound] with the the black and yellow you're even in the right colours. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [gap]. [speaker004:] Yeah, I think um we could do l the logo in grey, as it is on the website. [speaker001:] Cool. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] We ran out of resources here, so. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] In the actual one. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So if you have questions. [speaker001:] You can have a look. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Very good, let's have a look. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Test it out. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [gap]. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Uh it's a sort of intermediate colour, I guess. [speaker002:] Yeah, oh, we hold the remote. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh, but it it does feel all cold and slimy. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I hate Play-Do, it's just minging. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But yeah, uh that's cool, cool. [speaker003:] Very good. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Okay, so maybe if we go on to evaluation cri criteria [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] and then we'll there [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, see the budget. [speaker003:] I suspect we're gonna have a couple of minor finance issues, but um we'll se I'm sure we can get around them somehow. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] We'll just send all of our manufacturing to some nice poor country and cut some of the prices that way. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Wales. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Wales, for example. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm. Cool, okay. Right, okay. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Fabulous, [speaker003:] Marketing Expert. [speaker002:] yeah. Okay, cool. So what we're gonna do is prefer [disfmarker] prepare the evaluation of the new design. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Um so we're gonna be using a seven point scale, so one is, you know, yes, it totally meets with that requirement and seven is, no, it really doesn't, we need to go back and start again. Um, you know. Basically, what I did was I went through all the like user requirements and things that we've done and we've worked on and like made a list of them. Um you know, so that we can evaluate each one and like [disfmarker] so it was about going back to the start and saying oh yeah, we did manage to do that, or oh no, we really forgot about that. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Okay? Cool, so these are what they are. Oh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So for each of these we need to give it a one to seven. Is that right? [speaker002:] Yes, I did have A, B, C, and D down here, but it seems to have turned into like just bullet points. [speaker003:] Mm dots, never mind. [speaker002:] Okay. But if you can imagine that they say A, B, C, and D, then that would be really good. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] I guess we'll give it maximum points in everything. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, the yeah, it's definitely attractive. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I agree. [speaker004:] Oh, the locatable thing we actually forgot. [speaker002:] Well, I thought we'd um kinda said that you'd have a little thing to stick on the TV? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, just prepare one now. [speaker004:] Shall I just prepare it now? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] It will be red, too. [speaker002:] Cool. Okay. So, be attractive to look at. That's this one. What do you all say? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] S seven was th the maximum, yeah? [speaker001:] So? [speaker003:] I reckon it [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I I go for seven. [speaker003:] Seven, yeah, [speaker002:] Oh [vocalsound] we're all so proud of the [gap]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yes. [speaker003:] it's terribly sexy. Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Okay, so that'll be a seven for A. Could [disfmarker] oh no, you can't whilst that's up there. Okay um uh what I've done on the next page is I've set it up so we just put the marks in. [speaker003:] Ah, okay. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Excellent. Except we can't [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] uh we can if we [disfmarker] [speaker002:] But that's alright. [speaker001:] But we can we can [disfmarker] [speaker002:] If you take a note of them, [speaker001:] I can I can take note uh uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] then yeah, I'll take a note, it's fine. [speaker002:] and then I'll put them in in a minute. Okay, so [vocalsound] we're all agreeing on seven for A? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Cool, okay. Does it match the operating behaviour of the user? [speaker004:] I would think yes, yeah. [speaker001:] Um the the only thing that we were considering was that uh this thing is kind of more for right-handed people than for left-handed people, [speaker003:] I think it does. [speaker002:] Yeah. I mean [disfmarker] [speaker001:] so if you're left-handed you're kind of left uh scrolling with your finger. [speaker004:] Yeah, so y so we we might do we might want to do like a uh another m [vocalsound] model another another version, which is like exactly the mirror image of this one. [speaker003:] Alright. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But that's gonna be a problem, [speaker001:] But then [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] 'cause you don't always have all left-handers or all right-handers in a family. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So bu it's it's not a huge problem, [speaker002:] I th I think it's not [vocalsound] it's not like it's a pen. [speaker001:] because i i it is operatable. [speaker004:] But then then I think left-handed people are already used to discrimination anyway, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] so they just [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean because it's not like it's a pen, you know, left-handed people can't normally write right-handed, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but they can normally do most things right-handed, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] so I would say it's not such a big issue. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] Yeah, because I mean anyway, right-handed people would be able to scroll with it, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] so i if the majority are right-handed, it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I mean you can you can use your finger to to scroll rather than your thumb. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker002:] So I mean that does kind of negate the whole RSI issue. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So maybe we need to put [disfmarker] that needs a little bit of investigation, maybe give it a five, I would say? [speaker003:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] What do you what do you all think? [speaker003:] Six. [speaker004:] Or maybe six, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] because it's just one one i one among the issues, [speaker003:] Yeah, I think I think for um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I mean. Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean most people are right-handed, so in [vocalsound] in terms of our greatest target group, I think it's pretty good, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but we might want to flag it for management, they want [disfmarker] might want to um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] One more thing is that i [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] It might be a little clumsy when when it opens up, right, [speaker003:] They [disfmarker] [speaker001:] so it opens on the side. So [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] No, yeah, but mm but we have it [vocalsound] nicely [vocalsound] with the hinges here [gap] yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah yeah yeah, [speaker004:] So it won't be a problem, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] So you guys can decide wh whether [disfmarker] [speaker004:] it will be [disfmarker] and it will be [disfmarker] it won't be heavy. [speaker001:] Oops. [speaker002:] I th I think the alternative is flipping from the top. [speaker004:] Yeah well yeah, [speaker001:] Yeah, but we [disfmarker] which makes it kind of really big, yeah. [speaker004:] but it's it's a bit long. [speaker003:] The length is gonna be difficu [speaker004:] It's a little bit long. [speaker002:] Yeah um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Well, I mean it can be opened like this of course and yeah. [speaker002:] But you were thinking about making it smaller, yeah? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Uh this this kind of uh makes it more [gap] [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Because [disfmarker] [speaker004:] S uh slightly smaller. [speaker001:] and two, it might interfere with the IR channel. [speaker002:] So you have to keep that side flat. [speaker004:] Yeah, but if we flip it open only as much as that. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So it works like a mobile phone flipping, but y you know, as long as that side's flat, than that will work. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Okay. Um [vocalsound] okay, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] so C. Are are we admitting defeat on C or are we saying we're gonna stick a locator on the TV? [speaker003:] No, [speaker001:] No, [speaker003:] we're gonna put it like [disfmarker] we've got [speaker001:] we have a locator. [speaker003:] th there's the locator dot. [speaker002:] There's a locator. Cool, [speaker004:] Mm that you stick on TV. [speaker002:] so that means you need a [disfmarker] that does mean you need a little speaker on it though, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] doesn't it? To make it beep. [speaker004:] Yeah well w [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Or a buzzer. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] but l but the speak sample speaker is included, so it it has some capacity to mm to do some [disfmarker] to make some sounds, so [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So that's two, so that's seven, yeah. It's locatable? [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] Fabulous. D. [speaker001:] Intuitive, completely intuitive. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. If [vocalsound] uh uh if this means intuitive, if it means the way people kind of are used to finding things and it's [disfmarker] I th I think it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. I'd say six, 'cause the [disfmarker] I mean the the standard layout for numbers is three three three and one, rather than the way you've got it. I really like the way you have it, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] but it's not the immediate thing that you're used to. [speaker001:] Intuitive. [speaker002:] Yeah, and I mean d [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] And uh even the scroll, it's a it's a new technology so m m might be a little more difficult for people to get used to in the beginni [speaker003:] Might be [disfmarker] [speaker001:] so it is kind of not very intuitive but uh it's a good technology, I mean once they get used to it. [speaker003:] But it [disfmarker] and it's something that they will be experiencing in a lot of different places soon. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So, should we maybe say f a five [speaker001:] So l [speaker003:] Five? [speaker002:] and say it is intuitive, but it's different, so, do you know, I mean it's obvious how to use it, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but you might have to think about it first. So we give that one a five, you think? [speaker001:] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] I'm happy with five? [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] I'm gonna give a seven in everything, so. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I'm glad you're accepting this. It has taken a little while, hasn't it? Um intuitive but [disfmarker] Sorry, it's really hard to write on those. I just went a bit mad, didn't I? [speaker001:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Um okay, cool, E, okay. Um I would guess this comes back from this whole B thing links in here, so possibly for left-handed. Investigate. [speaker003:] Yep. But otherwise it's superb. [speaker002:] So, should we give it a six? [speaker003:] Six. [speaker002:] Six? [speaker004:] Um uh the ergonom ergonomic design [disfmarker] well mm I mean I d uh I dunno, I mean the the repetitive stress things, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker004:] but then who would be really pushing the buttons so much on the on the remote control anyway, [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah, [speaker004:] yeah? See. [speaker001:] unless you are a all the time sitting. [speaker004:] Yeah, so it's kinda [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well we've banned them from [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah, I I think it is ergonomic. [speaker002:] I used to send fifty texts a day, you know, and I never got repetitive strain injury from that, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm yeah. [speaker002:] so I find it quite hard to believe to be honest. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And moreover it it has um [vocalsound] LCD and everything, so that uh you know uh we minimise the pressing of the buttons anyway. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, it's varied. Yeah. Six? [speaker002:] Okay, so we give that a six, yeah. Okay, F. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, [gap] [disfmarker] it does have [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Absolutely. [speaker003:] Voice control have seven. [speaker002:] Hang on, how come it's showing up with the things there but it only had bullet points there? That's just [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Ah, that's the second one. So you must have changed it on this one where it's got score, but not on the previous slide. [speaker002:] Oh okay, cool. Um [vocalsound] right, so [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] So it has voice control. [speaker002:] Yes, so that's a seven then. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker002:] Um, cool. [speaker003:] G technologically innovative. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Anyway it ha yeah, [speaker004:] Technologi [gap] well [disfmarker] [speaker001:] it's the most sophisticated remote that I ever seen. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But in terms of the actual technology, none of it is actually new. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. Well mm we have we have the sample speaker as well, which is [disfmarker] yeah, it's kind of new. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean you don't [disfmarker] [speaker003:] All of the components have been used in other things before. [speaker004:] But at the same time they are all they are all relatively new. [speaker001:] Yeah, but they've been brought together in a remote. [speaker002:] They're never been used i they've never been using remote remote control before I don't think. [speaker003:] But do [disfmarker] yeah, yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] [gap]. [speaker003:] What do you reckon, five, six? [speaker002:] Yeah, what do you all think? [speaker004:] Six. [speaker002:] Six? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] I mean how how far can you go with a remote control, really? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] Well, that's it, I mean [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It still has to do what i what it has to do. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean everything has been used in space before it gets to anyone else really, hasn't it? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So, I don't think many peop [speaker003:] Space remote. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] That's it, they can take it with them. [speaker003:] Put fashion in electronics. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Absolutely. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, isn't it fashionable? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, sure. [speaker001:] The carrot banana remote. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] It's the maximum fashion. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So, we give it seven, [speaker004:] Fruit fruit and vegetables are fashionable these days, so. [speaker002:] and we write [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] There we go. [speaker004:] So I think we've done very well, [speaker001:] I think that's a [gap]. [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Cool. [speaker003:] Very good. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] What's the assessment? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So, we need the average here, so we got [disfmarker] [speaker004:] The average is about six and something. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, one. [speaker004:] A little bit over six. [speaker002:] Seven [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Or a seven [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] There are how many sixes? [speaker004:] No, wait, [speaker002:] So we've got four sevens, [speaker001:] One, two, three. [speaker004:] a little bit under six. [speaker002:] so that's twenty eight, [speaker004:] No, wait. [speaker001:] Three. [speaker002:] three sixes, [speaker001:] And one five. [speaker002:] eighteen. [speaker004:] Oh, three sixes, okay, yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Fifty one, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. [speaker001:] Okay, twenty eight, thirty eight, fo forty six. Forty six and five, fifty one. [speaker003:] Six point point [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Fifty one divided by [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Six point something, yeah. [speaker002:] Two three four [disfmarker] Seven eight. [speaker003:] about six point five. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Six point five, yeah. [speaker003:] Close enough. [speaker002:] Okay, that's pretty good, I think. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Now wait until we [vocalsound] get to finance and then we'll see if we can afford it. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] That's all you've got at the moment, or did you have anything more? [speaker002:] Um no, that's it, [speaker003:] That's it? [speaker002:] yeah. [speaker003:] Alright. So, finance. And we'll see if we can unscrew this first. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Cool, there we go. [speaker003:] Sorry, this is [disfmarker] I'm just um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [gap]. There we go and there are the marks. [speaker003:] Beautiful. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Not anymore. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Computer no signal? [speaker001:] Mm I guess it'll have to wait for a bit. [speaker003:] Adjusting. There we go. Okay, so we've looked at the prototype presentation and the evaluation criteria. And now we have to calculate the production costs. So I've got an Excel spreadsheet to help us do that. Can you read that? Almost. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] More or less. Um I started filling it in, but of course these are provisional, so we have to go down. No hand dynamo, right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker003:] One simple battery. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] No kinetic energy, no solar. The chip, we're going for an advanced chip on print. [speaker001:] Advanced, yeah. [speaker003:] We also said the sample sensor and sample speaker. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker003:] Um single-curved surface, so that we can fold it. [speaker004:] Yeah, yes. [speaker003:] Case material we said rubber. [speaker004:] Rubber. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] I don't know what special colour means. [speaker001:] Mm anything uh I think which is not more [gap]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I think something coloured, yeah, probably. So I think this is probably special co no? [speaker003:] It could be [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, but rubber comes coloured, doesn't it? You know. [speaker003:] Rub rubber comes coloured, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] it's [disfmarker] I would [disfmarker] [vocalsound] maybe it's like if you want titanium coloured or wood coloured, it's different. [speaker004:] Or maybe maybe if you want some kind of pattern thing on it, [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker004:] [gap] yeah yeah, okay. [speaker003:] let's leave it as zero, 'cause it's easy. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, you might end up having to take off the sample sensor. [speaker003:] We we're definitely going to have to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We have pushbuttons, [speaker003:] so we've got pushbutton, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] and then we've [speaker004:] scro we have scroll wheel as well. [speaker003:] Scroll wheel with pushbutton we had, no? [speaker004:] S yeah, yeah, [speaker001:] No uh we we have uh yeah. [speaker004:] we had, for muting, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] And we have LC display and [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] And button supplements. [speaker004:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm no. [speaker002:] [gap]. No. [speaker001:] We don't have [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No. No? [speaker001:] we're not using any of that. [speaker004:] Yeah, but what do we ha we have LC display, but but the wh but the s spinning wheel [disfmarker] [speaker003:] But the the spinning wheel's not there. I have [disfmarker] think [disfmarker] maybe it's integrated with the LC display? [speaker004:] Yeah. Okay, let's [gap] yeah. [speaker002:] We've got more than one pushbutton though, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] haven't we? [speaker003:] I think the pushbutton [disfmarker] oh. [speaker002:] 'Cause then you have [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I don't know if that's one [disfmarker] [speaker002:] That means you can only have twenty five push buttons in total doesn't it? Not counting anything, we'd still be in budget. [speaker003:] Yeah. That seems unlikely. Push what uh [speaker001:] Huh? Wh wh what is the limit? Uh. [speaker002:] Twelve point five. [speaker003:] whether whether pushbutton means that p count by button or do we [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We have to count all of them, or [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker001:] Mm I don't think so, no. [speaker003:] I don't think that makes sense. [speaker002:] No. Well it doesn't, but it uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] No it says what what is the kind of interface, [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] if it is pushbutton then you got a zero point five, it's a scroll wheel [disfmarker] so we we've put it's pushbutton and scroll wheel and LCD display, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] And LC display. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] so that's that's the three kind of interfaces that we have. [speaker003:] Yeah. So, as we can see, that's way too expensive down here. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Wh wh what's our criteria? [speaker002:] This sample sensor [gap]. [speaker003:] Our budget's twelve point five. [speaker001:] Uh okay. [speaker002:] Yeah, the sample sensor will have to go, 'cause that's the most expensive thing on there. [speaker003:] Yeah, so that has implications though for the [gap]. [speaker001:] Uh it does not have for voice recognition, but it does have for the feedback speaker. [gap] when you say [disfmarker] when you press one it says one or it says hello. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] For the locator. [speaker002:] But that's a bit of a gimmick anyway really, isn't it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm [vocalsound] and the locator also goes away. [speaker002:] We can afford to get rid of it. [speaker004:] But it was very no innovative [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] So that means no locator, does it? [speaker004:] [gap] innovativeness [gap]. Well um [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker002:] I mean does [disfmarker] [speaker003:] What else does it need? [speaker004:] Well the speaker uh the sample speaker is is expensive, but we could just have some some very very easy device that just beeps. [speaker003:] Yeah, 'cause the sample speaker was, I think, more complicated then just a beeping thing. [speaker004:] This would be [disfmarker] Yeah, yeah yeah [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] there you record your samples your speech samples and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, okay, so we [disfmarker] [speaker001:] A also i in the case I'm not sure that you will evaluate this as a curved surface, because it's just rubber, so it's probably a flat surface rubber. Uh I mean uh um [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker003:] Uh-huh. [speaker002:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] Right, so we need one fifty off. [speaker001:] Um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] See, I was gonna say the scroll wheel pushbutton thing, 'cause [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Take it down to just a scroll wheel. [vocalsound] We could do [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So tha that [vocalsound] mean that we cannot press [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, then then we would be in the b budget. [speaker001:] how do we how do we make a selection in uh in the LCD? If [vocalsound] in the LCD we can scroll, right? But how do we make a selection if we d cannot push the button. [speaker004:] Yeah b no no, you can push this one, but we don't have a pushbutton uh we ca we don't have this muting mechanism for this scrolling thing. [speaker002:] But that's [disfmarker] well you would just have to to spin it down [gap]. [speaker003:] Yeah. You can have to scroll it straight r roll it straight down for for mute. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So that's point three. [speaker001:] No w w w but ha it's it's the scroll wheel and I thought we were referring to this as a scroll spinning wheel and pushbutton thing. [speaker004:] But I mean [vocalsound] we can put an additional mute button on the top as well. If you [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, I mean that wouldn't actually cost any more. That's the spin wheel though, isn't it? Didn't that come with the LC [disfmarker] [speaker003:] That's with the LC [speaker001:] That comes with the LCD? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] We decided, 'cause it's not on our list. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh so so the the this is [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] The scroll wheel is on the side. [speaker001:] [gap]. So [vocalsound] we're adding costs for [gap] right, okay uh I mean I think this is good. [speaker004:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] S so we're point three over. [speaker003:] We're point three over at the moment. It's nothing n [speaker002:] Unless we just take off the scroll wheel altogether and just have pushbuttons for the volume. Could b still put them on the side. But yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah, [speaker002:] I mean the scroll wheel's pretty cool, but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I have [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Instead of scrolling here we have two buttons here, up [disfmarker] for up and down. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] On the side. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm uh it sounds good actually, yeah. [speaker004:] Okay, yeah. [speaker003:] Rather than having three different things that people have to do. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [gap]. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] There we go. Oh look, we're way under budget and we'll make huge profits and we'll all get bonuses. [speaker002:] Yeah, well we could admit to the single curve [gap], couldn't we? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Or or that we have to have some sort of special colour. [speaker002:] Yeah, but [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker003:] So that's alright. We we'll leave it at that [gap] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and then I'll take [disfmarker] I can send it back to management and say we weren't quite sure about the colour, if that costs extra then we've still got some space for it, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] We have, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Excellent. Alright. So did we lose um on our evaluation criteria, as a result of doing that? [speaker002:] No. No, I don't think so. [speaker001:] Not really, no. Because we keep all the features, we keep voice recognition, we keep LCD display. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] We [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] instead of having scrolling we we just push the buttons. [speaker002:] We just got rid of a gimmick that was never [gap] anyway, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Um yeah. [speaker002:] and the scroll wheel is I mean essentially the two buttons that was [disfmarker] it's not a great difference I don't think. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Alright then. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] But we lose the locator. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Well [gap] we're going to have a beeping thing. [speaker002:] Really? [speaker003:] We're gonna have a beep. [speaker001:] So instead of speaker, [gap]. [speaker004:] But yeah, it's it's not like sample speaker, but it will just beep, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] so we still have the locate. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Cool. That's not a very exciting colour. I think you should make it more vegetable-like. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Tha [speaker004:] Which colour, the the colour of the phone or the colour of the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh the the beeper thing. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] But it can be yellow as well. [speaker002:] It [disfmarker] [speaker004:] It can come in the same colour as the the case. [speaker003:] 'Cause we we won't have run out of our pot of Play-Doh [gap]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, I think Jen wants it to vibrate. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, I know I know, my pen vibrates. [speaker002:] You know, your pen vibrates? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] But only for a very short time. Um okay. So looks like we've designed a banana. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Well done, team. [vocalsound] Um we need [disfmarker] we've just got about ten minutes or so left of the meeting, so it would be good if we could just have a little talk about the project itself and how it went, um so that we can feed back to the management for next time they're designing a product. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I think it mm [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Cool. [speaker003:] Feedback? Ideas? [speaker004:] Yeah mm, as far as creativity is concerned, yeah I think there was there was room for creativity. The only the only problem being that at the end we had to cut some things down because of the the budget we had. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I think uh n one thing that was lacking uh was that we did not know what the various things cost to begin with. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Um we kap kept a adding things randomly. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So, had we known [disfmarker] [speaker002:] If we'd had that sheet at the beginning [gap] should've been like, okay, so we can have that lot, let's just throw it together and do what we can. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that or not, yeah. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. So [vocalsound] d all the random decisions at the end could have been prevented. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] But in terms of the process of um going and working individually and then coming back to a meeting, that that worked in terms of. [speaker001:] Yeah, mm. [speaker002:] I think 'cause the meetings were so regular, you know. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] It wasn't like we were alone for very long, so you didn't [vocalsound] st go off and think, wouldn't it be great to have a vibrating [vocalsound] remote control [vocalsound] shaped like a banana, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Banana. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and then, you know, come back three days later and Jen's going look, look, it vibrates and it looks like a banana. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Um yeah, so yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, the m the means were very very good, the means we used. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm, the whiteboard digital pens. [speaker004:] And the pens. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Uh I like the pens. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] We like the pens. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I want one. That would just be so cool, to d do all your notes and s [speaker003:] Yeah, you could take it to lectures and just write stuff down [speaker001:] Yeah yeah yeah, [speaker003:] and have it printed out when you got back to the office. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] that's it's it's [disfmarker] [speaker003:] They great? [speaker001:] I wonder what one of these costs. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Do you think they'd notice if one went? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I don't think you should say that was the recording. [speaker003:] Oh okay. [speaker002:] Okay, cover up the microphone. Alright, let's take it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yep. Shh. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] But that worked well having having a whiteboard that we could draw on as well as having the PowerPoint, 'cause the [disfmarker] I find that the problem with PowerPoint often is that it's so static and you can't change it once you're in there, [speaker002:] It is a bit limiting, isn't it? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] yep. [speaker004:] Yeah, and and and this time also the time limits but actually preparing the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. The thing flew in, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] you didn't have the whole whooshing thing, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] 'cause there wasn't time for that, so yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. That's alright, that always irritates me anyway, yeah. [speaker002:] Not that you can do that on the board, either. We could make some little [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But yeah, but I mean already just just preparing the slides before before the meeting, yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, totally, I mean that was fairly tight anyway, [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean especially with that last-minute alteration. [speaker004:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [gap] back it, [vocalsound] this is [disfmarker] just had to be changed [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] And [disfmarker] yeah, so [disfmarker] cool. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Are we supposed to say nice things about Jen now? [speaker003:] And presumably you don't [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] you can say nasty things as well. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. I was I was satisfied with with the leadership, yeah. [speaker003:] I have no stake in it. [speaker002:] Yeah, definitely. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] You weren't like a a dictating leader, so that was always good. [speaker003:] You have to say that, 'cause I'm taking the notes. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] I'll leave the room and you can have another go. [speaker002:] I know you've got the pen, you might attack me with it. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Better than that than the banana. [speaker004:] And then the teamwork I think I think it worked quite quite nicely, yeah. [speaker003:] I think it worked quite well. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Did anyone feel that they were getting sort of covered up and not being able to say their bit? [speaker004:] To express them mm mm [speaker001:] Mm. I guess it was a fairly small group, [speaker004:] no. [speaker001:] so all of us got to express our opinions, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [gap]. New ideas found. Not quite sure what about. [speaker004:] Well it's it's it's pretty new, [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] pretty novel solution for a for a remote control really, all this flipping open thing and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] I don't know, I don't go shopping for remote controls that often, [speaker004:] Yeah, neither neither do I, [speaker002:] maybe somebody's already though of it. [speaker004:] but I've never seen anything [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and and none of my examples were was was like this, actually, so. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. I'll be looking out next time I need to write an essay. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's right. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] That looks boring, I'll see if anyone's made a [gap] remote control. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah maybe w maybe we could have a patent on this one. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Patent patent patent. Mm. [speaker003:] Banana remote. [speaker002:] I think we'd like to think the ideas were new, but we've got no way of finding out. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Or you can always go to Google and type in banana remote control. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] That vibrates [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Flip. Vibrate [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah, but that would just come up with like other things really wouldn't it. [speaker003:] And uh [disfmarker] yeah. [vocalsound] Nothing that you really want. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] True. Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Okay. So, costs are within budget, [speaker004:] Yes. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] well within budget, including a little [disfmarker] what have we got? One Euro left over for bits that we didn't foresee. Um we've evaluated the project. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] You've got the scores. [speaker002:] And it's fabulous. [speaker003:] Can you put that in the project documents file? [speaker002:] It's in the project documents [gap]. [speaker003:] It's in there already. And the process wheel didn't really have any major problems with. Were there any [disfmarker] was there anything that you found difficult, or anything that didn't go as smoothly as you'd hope? [speaker004:] And my main difficulty was the the time pressure. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Otherwise it's it's all fine. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] sometimes it's like a little bit rushed. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] I thought that was good though, because if you're given too much time then you got nothing to do with your time and um [disfmarker] yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [speaker001:] Although we could have made the Rs better had we had five more minute. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay then. Um I think we're still well within our time. [speaker002:] Yeah, we've got like five minutes left. [speaker003:] We've got about five minutes left, but if we've finished, then we've finished. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] We're just too too efficient and you should never drag a meeting on just because you have extra time. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] We certainly are, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] mm. Yeah. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] So I would say that's the end of that meeting. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, it was a pleasure working with you. [speaker003:] Thank you, team. [speaker002:] 'Kay. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Yeah, same here. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It was very productive day and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] We could draw animals on the board again. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Mm uh no. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm uh no. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I don't think so. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] You can make some animals. [speaker002:] I don't like Play-Doh, no. [speaker004:] Oh, you don't like anim [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It's just minging. It smells so bad. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] It doesn't? [speaker002:] It does. [speaker004:] Smells quite nice. Smells very sweet. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Right, so we have to complete the final questionnaire and meeting summary when they send it. [speaker001:] Was there a questionnaire already sent? [speaker003:] I don't know if it's already sent or not. [speaker002:] No, it hasn't been. [speaker003:] Um presumably I have to [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Do we have to go back into the other room or can we stay in here now? [speaker003:] I don't see why you can't stay here, really. [speaker002:] Okay, so the other way. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Did I save this one? Production costs. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] I made your animal for you. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] It was supposed to be pink. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, that's the one [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] But it was blue on the board.

[speaker001:] [vocalsound] Good to see you all again. Let's see if that comes up. This is our functional design meeting. Um. Just a sec while my PowerPoint comes up. Et voila. Okay. Mm um we put the fashion in electronics. Let's start. Okay, our agenda today um [disfmarker] just check the time, it's twelve thirteen. Um. I'm gonna do an opening, talk about um [disfmarker] did you all get the minutes? I e-mailed them to you. I'm also putting 'em [disfmarker] them in the shared folder. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] So um then I [disfmarker] we'll talk about our general objectives [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] and have your three presentations. Um I'll talk about the new project requirements I've just received, and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions. Finally we'll just close. We're starting this meeting at approximately twelve thirteen and we have forty minutes. So [disfmarker] First of all the functional design objectives. Uh we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification, what needs and desires are to be fulfilled, the [gap] functions design, what effects the apparatus should have, and the working design, how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function. Okay, three presentations, um you can go in any order you choose um. [speaker004:] [gap] Mm shall we go in the order that you just did it? [speaker001:] Sure, please do. [speaker004:] I dunno. How do I hook my screen up? [speaker002:] I think, you might have to disconnect Rose. [speaker001:] Yes I do. Yeah. [speaker003:] Well there's a wee a wee plug just just that one there [speaker004:] Where does it go? Mm-hmm. Hmm, I'm not supposed to move this, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] but [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Ah that's it, yep. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker003:] And then you have to press function F eight I think it is on your laptop. [speaker001:] Function, F eight, yeah. [speaker004:] Where's function? [speaker001:] The blue one, FN. [speaker004:] No signal. [speaker001:] Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Ah, wait, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] 's screw in. [speaker002:] I I think you just have to push it in really hard. [speaker004:] Push the screw. [speaker003:] That's it. [speaker002:] Oh, got it. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. [speaker004:] Mm alright [speaker001:] It's taking it a little bit [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I've never attached to anything. [speaker002:] Mm, neither have I. [speaker001:] 'Kay there you go. [speaker004:] Alright, so, [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker004:] I don't know if you guys are able to get access to um the report that was online or if I'm the only one who is. But, I don't even know how to play this. No. [speaker001:] Press the little presentation. It's the um [disfmarker] it looks like a Y kind of [disfmarker] over there above Draw. There, that one, there you go. [speaker004:] Alright. So we're just gonna talk a little bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked. Um I guess Real Reaction did some market research. They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched them watch TV and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had. What they found was they analysed people's desires and needs. Focusing on their desires, um people specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly [vocalsound], seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they [disfmarker] more importantly though, eighty per cent said that they would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote. I don't know anything beyond what fancy means, [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] but that's particularly of use to us, I think. Um also they did some questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age, so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition, whereas the older people in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions. Um people also had certain frustrations, [speaker002:] 'Kay. [speaker004:] that I think that we could try to take into consideration with our design. That being people k um frustrated with losing their remotes. I think, over fifty percent of the people mentioned that that was their biggest frustration. People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying before [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] just that there's too many buttons, it just needs to be easy to use. It also mentioned something called RSI and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what RSI is, because I don't know. [speaker003:] Repetitive strain injury. [speaker004:] What? [speaker003:] Repetitive strain injury. [speaker001:] [gap] [speaker004:] Ah. There we go. Wow. [speaker003:] So if you [disfmarker] [speaker004:] People do not like that. So I guess sort of the carpal tunnel type thing, people do not like that, um the repetitive use, I guess, caused a strain. Um looking at the needs people specified, the problem right now is that people's remotes are not matching their operating behaviour. People are only using ten per cent of the buttons that they have offered to them on their remote. And what people do most often is changing the channel and changing the volume. People also zap like to change the channel, about um sixty five per cent during an hour of use. So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings, the screen settings and the channel settings, because they're used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what's going on. So I think that some things that we might wanna think about, the idea of an LCD screen was brought up although they didn't have any details on what people's preferences on that were, so I dunno know if that's coming to me later, or something like that. But something for us to consider also just the phenomenon that less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we wanna make easiest to use, make sure that, you know, something like an audio setting isn't given as much importance and visibility on the remote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often. And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like, that it has a fancy appeal and that it's not ugly [vocalsound] and that it feels like the way they're gonna use it, so it doesn't give them any hand injuries or things like that. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Thank you very much. That was that was great. [speaker002:] Mm 'kay. [speaker001:] Um [vocalsound] 's move on to the next presentation um on effects. Was that you? [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Great. [speaker004:] Yeah, have I unscrewed it? [speaker001:] Push. User interface, right. Interface. [speaker004:] Here we go. [speaker003:] Cheers. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. And I think that's in the shared, if I did it right, if anyone wants to look at it. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay, [speaker002:] Okay, [speaker001:] thank you. [speaker002:] great. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] Here we go. Right so I'm gonna talk about the technical technical functions design of the remote control um. We need to start by considering what a remote control actually is. It's a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television, so i it's basically a communication device. We we tell the remote control what we want to do, it sends a message to the television saying change the channel, change the volume, uh yeah, adjust these settings, adjust the brightness. Um how do we actually go about designing a new television remote control? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications. We need to know what our final product is gonna be like, so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this product does, uh how it works, and what the end-user is gonna want from this product. Um. Oh, a way I'd suggest that we could go about this is by designing uh several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product, um and then uh trying to get some feedback uh about [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] h how well these particular prototypes work, uh sorta find out what people think of 'em. Um using a remote control is is quite a subjective experience. Um, [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] and different different people sort of prefer different things. Um we should remember that remote controls are a a fairly standard piece of equipment. When a users using a remote control, he or she expects the buttons to be in certain places. So in some sense we're gonna we're gonna have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design uh so that we're not completely shocking people. But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas uh and to make something that's that's perhaps a little bit different, something that stands out. Um also in in designing the user interface we need to consider practicalities. Uh the first of these is is technological ye uh what can we do with the current state of technology as it is. The second is is economic, uh we need to find a balance between features and price. So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price uh but it would also im improve the design of the product. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] So I had a look on the [disfmarker] on the web uh to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls. In analysing these we can consider what what things [disfmarker] what's good about them, uh what things do they get right, what's bad about them, what's wrong with 'em, um how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out from from the large majority of remote controls. Here's two examples uh probably at the extreme ends of the spectrum. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Um on the left here we've got uh an engineering-based design for a remote control, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] so it's one that's got lots of buttons, it's it's fully featured, everything you might possibly want to do is there, you know, it's got forward, backwards, up, down, channel numbers, volume, uh freeze frame. Yeah, it's it's fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it, but once you've learned it you can [disfmarker] you can do whatever you want with your TV. The one on the right is a lot more basic. It's just got the essential functions of the TV changing the channel, play, stop, volume. It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it, but again th it's it's swings and roundabouts. There are disadvantages, you can't use it say to to freeze the television picture. Uh there's a lot of features that are missing from that remote control. So we've got to to find our [disfmarker] find a way of striking a balance between the two. Um as I said before, remote controls are subjective, different people want want different things. Um personally wa what I want from a remote control is a device that's simple, it it's easy to use, uh it's got big buttons for doing the things I do most often, changing the volume, changing the channel. It it does everything that I need it to uh, as I said before, I'm quite lazy, I don't wanna walk across the room just to adjust my television. I also want something that that looks cool, um and that that feels good, that's ergonomically designed. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. Thank you very much. That was very useful. [vocalsound] It's funny to see the [vocalsound] drastic difference between those two remotes. [vocalsound] Um. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker001:] And neither of them were very pretty, you know? [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. I think that could be our selling point. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] A fashion fashion remote. [speaker003:] I think there's there's certainly a market for technology that looks cool. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] And I think that's that's why companies like Apple've 've 've made a lot of progress. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Right, I really can't see what I'm doing, so does anyone have a [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You [disfmarker] there it is. [speaker002:] Ah-ha, look at that, showing up already. [speaker001:] Lovely. [speaker004:] So wait, did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see? [speaker003:] Uh that was just on the d on the company web site, yeah. [speaker004:] Okay. 'Cause I was like googling [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and then I'm like wait [vocalsound] it won't let me google. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Alright um [disfmarker] No, how do I play again? [speaker001:] Um the [disfmarker] it's right above Draw. There are three thingy if [disfmarker] it's way at the bottom. Under three icons [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker001:] and it's the one that looks like a desk. Yeah, that one. There are Ys [gap]. [speaker002:] Okay. So this is our working design presentation. Um I had a bit of [disfmarker] some issues with this, because I wasn't able to find everything I needed, but I guess that's [disfmarker] we're still in early stages. Um so, yeah, this is this. Though th the thing about working design is the [disfmarker] what we're trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function. Um one of the examples that kept coming up for me is that a coffee grinder. It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out, and then you get coffee at the end that's nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work. Don't know if I'm explaining that very well, but [disfmarker] how do I get to the next s ah. So h the method as um working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function, what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen. So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy is converted tsh towards this practical function. And then I think the easiest thing to do is gonna be work on each task separately. So um [disfmarker] Uh. Uh. [speaker001:] You just press [disfmarker] yeah, just click. That'll be fine. [speaker002:] So the findings that I got uh very [disfmarker] just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to the receiver and in my opinion infra-red is the best way to do that 'cause you don't need a sight line. So that's one thing we're gonna work on. Um the user interface is critical here, because a lot of the things that happen in a remote control happen through the chip that controls [disfmarker] that converts the electrical energy into data, which then goes through the infra-red, so the the chip that uh I think Ian is designing, is gonna be crucial. And really it all comes down to the to the user, because they're the one that's controlling most of the working design. So the components that we find here are the energy source, you know the battery or whatever that's gonna m make it work, then the chip, which converts the data, the user that's controlling the chip, and the infra-red bulb that's gonna let us move the data to the receiver. So you have four main components and they are designed sort of like this. You have your energy source right there which then um brings uh energy or information to the chip, which is also controlled by the users. You have energy going to the user who's controlling the chip [disfmarker] ooh 's not what I wanted to do uh uh. [speaker001:] Um yeah use that thing [gap] you can go back, previous. [speaker002:] Previous. Sorry about that, guys. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Pardon. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Oh, well. [speaker002:] No, no, no, no, no. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Okay, let's just get back to my schematic here. [speaker001:] Ye Double click on it. With the right [disfmarker] with the left hand one. [speaker002:] W yeah, yeah. I think it's frozen. Here. Don't show me that tip again. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] There we are. [speaker002:] There we are. Sorry about this, guys. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I'm kind of pathetic with things like this. Um alright. So you have your energy source, your user interface who's controlling the chip, the chip also uses the energy, and the chip through the use of the user interface is gonna control the switch which will work your infra-red bulb, which will then bring the data to the receiver. So hopefully that makes sense for everyone in my kind of garbled way. This is the the parts of the working design that need to be figured out. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] And [vocalsound] personal preferences, besides the fact that I can't spell, we need a long-lasting energy source, people don't wanna be changing it a lot. We need a chip that works well with the user interface, that isn't too complicated. We need a straightforward interface, like Ian was saying, simple, not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infra-red signal, so that you're not waving your remote around and having to get frustrated [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] and go do it by hands. So that's pretty much it for the working design. [speaker001:] Excellent. [gap] So, um. [speaker002:] Rose, do you think you can give me a hand with this? [speaker001:] Yes, absolutely. Ah I can never tell which way to turn these things. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Lefty loosey, righty tighty, right? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] What's up? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Lefty loosey. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Lefty loosey, righty tighty. [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Never heard that before, [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Oh yes. [speaker003:] that's good. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I'll think of that every time now. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It's gonna stick in your head. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's a good one it'll stick with you. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. Um I have nothing on my screen. Just a sec. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Here we are. [speaker002:] Ooh, no signal. [speaker001:] Okay, yeah, it's fine. Okay, requirements. We have a couple new requirements that I was just e-mailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in um in mind as we're creating this. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] We didn't bring it up yet, or at all in the meetings so far, but we're not gonna work with teletext because um [disfmarker] well it [disfmarker] that's been taken over by the internet, so we're not gonna worry about um [disfmarker] we're not gonna worry about that. [speaker004:] What's teletext? [speaker001:] Um. [speaker002:] Uh, it's a British thing. [speaker004:] Oh. Oh, [speaker003:] You don't have it in the States? [speaker004:] so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] No. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] It [disfmarker] no. W d could [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Oh, I didn't realise. [speaker001:] would you care to explain it? [speaker003:] Um yeah, it's like a [disfmarker] I suppose it's kind of similar to a very very basic web browser. Um you have like you have uh numbers on your remote control, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] uh y and you type in the page number you want, so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it. And you just type numbers to go to different pages and it gives you information, mostly rather boring stuff like what's on TV next and share prices and that kind of thing. [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] S [vocalsound] Lottery numbers and sport scores. [speaker003:] Yep, news headlines. [speaker002:] But if you ever see the TV saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now, that's what they're talking about. [speaker001:] How? [speaker004:] Oh. [speaker003:] It's earl it's pretty old technology. It's like nineteen eighties. [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] That explains a lot. [speaker002:] I have no idea why we don't have it, but [disfmarker] [speaker004:] That's good. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Interesting. Okay um, well, we're not gonna [disfmarker] the management has decided we're not gonna work with that. Um [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay um and we're also gonna w like your question earlier um whether this is going to be t for television, video, or etcetera. Just for television. That's what we're focused on. [speaker003:] Right. [speaker001:] Um otherwise becomes to complex, we wanna get this out um very quickly. We only have a a short amount of time. [speaker002:] 'Kay. [speaker001:] Um and finally there's more marketing, I think, um, our corporate image has to be recognisable. So while we're gonna make it look pretty we need to use our colour and our slogan i in the new design. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] So what's our corporate image like? It's [disfmarker] It's kind of yellow colour with uh we put fashion in electronics. [speaker001:] Looks like, yeah, kind of a yellow and black and we have that [disfmarker] the emphasis on the Rs in um [disfmarker] [speaker003:] It's like double R. [speaker001:] mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But it's, yeah, we put the um fashion in electronics. So we gotta keep that in that in mind. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Okay, so we want something that looks good [speaker001:] Yep. Yep. [speaker002:] and is yellow. [speaker001:] Yeah, or [vocalsound] ha maybe some buttons could be yellow. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] Like, we can we can play around with it a little bit. Um. Okay, we need to talk about our functions and our target group. We need to decide who our target group is. You um in your analysis of different market um [disfmarker] of the marketing, you identified that different groups wanted different things [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] or had certain preferences, for example that um that older people didn't really care for um voice recognition, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] but younger people did. Um and so who are we aiming this at? [speaker002:] Well if we're gonna say that function um fashion [disfmarker] we put the fashion in in electronics then you [disfmarker] automatically, I think, a sort of younger group that [disfmarker] that's [disfmarker] who's gonna be attracted to this. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yes, I do think, who's gonna have the money to buy that also, that one? [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. It's gonna be twenty five Euro remember, so um it has to be avai marketable to um whomever it is. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Is it [disfmarker] is it something that's gonna be sold separately from the television or is it something that comes w with a television? 'Cause that would affect the way that we market it. [speaker001:] Well at least right now what we're doing is um deciding on just the remote itself, so it will probably be sold separately, twenty five Euro by itself. [speaker003:] Right. Right, okay. [speaker004:] The only break-down that I was given in terms of age was the voice activation and basically there's a big jump, after thirty five people don't really care if it has voice, so it's like basically fifteen to thirty five that think that that's a good idea. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] I dunno I'm gonna be given any other numbers broken down in terms of age later, but if that's sort of the only quality that we have that is divided into age then we would wanna stick between the fifteen and thirty five range. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's probably uh a population w quite a little bit of disposable income for use on technology anyway, so that might be a fairly good target group for us. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Now, those are [disfmarker] that's all specific for speech recognition. Are we gonna use that as one of our functions? [speaker003:] Um. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] I I would say no, because it's gonna add too much to the price. Especially if we are marketing it as a separate product, people are gonna be paying [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] uh, well, uh we've got a price limit of [disfmarker] was it twelve twelve and a half Euros for [disfmarker] to produce it? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] To produce it, yeah. [speaker001:] To produce it, yes. [speaker003:] And I wonder if we can get voice recognition into that twelve and a half Euros without having to make too many other compromises. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] But what else are we gonna put, I mean not that I'm really gung-ho about it, I don't know what else you can put in a remote to make it technologically advanced though. So like other than just making it look good, how is it [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] I mean it can look really great and still have the same up-n-down buttons [speaker002:] But [disfmarker] [speaker004:] and why's anyone gonna buy a new remote? [speaker002:] right. Well but why are we why are we aiming for a technological advancement? Everything we're talking about is ease of use and simple and that doesn't necessarily mean more technology, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] in fact it could use [disfmarker] it could mean, not. [speaker001:] That's a good thing to keep in mind. [speaker002:] If [vocalsound] [disfmarker] they might be overwhelmed with with remotes that have too many buttons and too much technology. [speaker004:] If someone's looking to buy a new remote, don't they want like an upgrade? I dunno. [speaker001:] Upgrade? Well, we can look for [disfmarker] we can look at upgrade or we can look at um user-friendly. [speaker002:] Yeah, simplification. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Simplification, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] They could have a crap remote [speaker001:] so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] that came with their TV that's just impossible to use, or maybe it broke, or maybe they're just missing it. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Uh-huh, mm. And we also need to talk about if we're only gonna have the very simple ones or also have the other ones just separate somehow or [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Can you like [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I mean this may be too complicated, but, I wish I had something to explain it, like if it was just a simple, either this way or this way, that had like the main buttons and then you could like pull something out, kind of and like you got the rest the buttons, [speaker002:] Ooh. [speaker004:] but the rest of them like went in. [speaker003:] The remote [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Do you know what I'm saying? [speaker003:] There are remote controls like that, [speaker001:] Kind of pull out of the side. [speaker003:] yeah. Like some TVs they have a sort of uh a sliding screen on the remote control of it [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] that hides all the complicated buttons. [speaker002:] Ooh. [speaker003:] So if you wanna do something complicated like programme your television or re-tune it, then you you open up this little hatch or or slide the screen down [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] and there's all the [disfmarker] all the special buttons. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] 'Cause then 's like people who don't wanna ever look at them, never even have to see them [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and if you like get the instruction manual that comes with it and you just don't even read it then you'll never even know that those things can pull out. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] And you're a happy person and everyone else doesn't have to have like two remotes, one that has the easy ones and one that has [speaker002:] Yeah, that's a good idea. [speaker004:] more complicated ones, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] but 's all still in one. [speaker003:] I think that's a good idea, yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Um we have to be careful that that that doesn't impede um the chip transmitting information, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] but um that's gonna be mostly technological thing. Um. [speaker002:] Good point. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Okay um, so what are we emphasising? I [disfmarker] what in this project? [speaker003:] Si simplicity and fashion. [speaker004:] I think simplicity, fashion. [speaker001:] Simplicity and fashion. [speaker002:] Yeah mm. [speaker001:] Okay, those are very good goals, I think, um that we have to keep in mind in [disfmarker] with everything we do. Simplicity and fashion and, yeah, [disfmarker] or usability speci however you wanna say that, which includes um an emphasis on making the infra-red very functional, [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] so that you don't have to travel around a lot. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker004:] What can you do to like make the infra-red more functional, [speaker001:] Um. [speaker004:] like why would it not be? I'm just wondering. [speaker001:] I think it's a lot [vocalsound] to do with battery, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] but that's just my [disfmarker] [speaker002:] The battery and that [disfmarker] I think that the chip takes the data and presents it well, without sort of scattering. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So 's just the quality of the chip. [speaker002:] Yeah. I think so. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] The quality [vocalsound] uh quality of all the components really, I mean, we can't really do anything [disfmarker] shoddy work, 'cause it's [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] gonna be visible down the line. [speaker001:] So our target group, we're saying, fifteen to thirty five? [speaker004:] Well, I dunno how useful that number is if we're not doing [disfmarker] [speaker001:] S voice recognition, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] which I kind of I kind of feel like voice recognition is not necessary in a remote control, [speaker004:] Yeah I don't. [speaker001:] like it might be necessary for a TV but not for the remote c, you know. [speaker003:] It's, yeah, it's pretty it's pretty high-tech. [speaker002:] Mm-mm. [speaker001:] Seems a little bit [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it might be too expensive. [speaker003:] [gap] [speaker004:] And if the whole idea is you're using a remote then why would you have voice, like you know what I mean and then it's like you wouldn't need a remote [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] you'd just talk to your TV. [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] It's for, like, the ultimately lazy people, [speaker002:] Ooh. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] who can't even be bothered to pick up the remote. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm yeah. Maybe [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I [speaker004:] I mean if I get m more numbers, I'll e-mail you before the next meeting in terms of ages. But this doesn't divide up anything and there was only a hundred subjects also, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] which isn't, I mean, really isn't that representative, especially if it's a hundred subjects that th they then can subdivide into age groups that means there's very few in each age group, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker004:] [gap] [speaker002:] but I th I think regardless we're we're aiming for the under sixty five or something. [speaker001:] Under sixty five, okay, [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] that's a good start. Um. I'd say we're [disfmarker] uh can we narrow it down to maybe um teenagers and families? 'Cause that would go up to like fifty? [speaker002:] Or like single professionals or something. [speaker004:] Twenty to like fifty five. [speaker001:] Okay, single [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I dunno. [speaker001:] It's it's hard to narrow it down. [speaker002:] It's really hard to figure out right now. [speaker003:] I think the product appeals across a quite a broad range of ages. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] I mean, we we said simplicity is is one of the features, so it's going to appeal to people, maybe people who have problems with technology, you know, people who get scared by having lots of buttons, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker003:] and that might be older people, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] but then we've also got fashion, which is something that definitely appeals to younger people. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Well maybe we don't have to defi define the target group by the demographic of age, maybe we can define it by like the demographic of [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] like h t how much money they have to spend or something like that, [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah aim for a [disfmarker] an income group. [speaker004:] like, well [speaker002:] That's a good point. [speaker004:] obviously it has to be someone who owns a television, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and like how recently have they bought their television like that sort of thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker001:] So maybe it's more useful to d d to define objectives like fashion and simplicity than to find specific target group as far as age is [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, t probably. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] because, yeah, things so different will appeal to different people, but [disfmarker] Okay. Um oh, there're a couple functions [disfmarker] do we want something so that [disfmarker] do we want some kind of thing to find it if it's lost? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Like a button on a TV you can press and it'll ring or something, I don't know like [disfmarker] or beep? [speaker004:] H I mean, like I said before, fifty per cent of of the fru f like frustration someone can have that was the biggest one and half the people said that happened and we all mentioned it before we knew about it. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] And if we're talking about making something easy that sort of goes along with it so it wouldn't be like a random thing to sort of add in. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] It would be relevant to like the overall goal I think, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yeah, that'll probably be good. [speaker004:] so [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay, we have to [disfmarker] we have about four minutes left to define our functions. So let's do that quickly. Um so we want something to keep it from getting lost. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And [vocalsound] we want um we want large buttons for the essential things. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Large, accessible buttons for the essentials. We want a possibility to um to get um a possibility to get the extra functions. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Which are kind of hidden away in some way or well not hidden but they're uh they're not as prominent as the main features. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Um, yeah, hidden way. And we also want it to be fashionable, which I'm not sure if that's a function so much as a um yeah [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [gap] on your coffee table, it's not like an eye sore, that kind of thing. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Yeah. Alright. [speaker001:] Okay, do it. Any other essential functions that we need? Battery? Do we need a long-life battery? [speaker002:] Battery battery use. Yeah, but I think that goes in with simplicity and ease of use really. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But we might as well. [speaker004:] So you never have to change the battery. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] We should maybe investigate whether it needs a battery at all. I suspect the remote control does need a battery, but [speaker001:] Yeah, I would imagine. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I dunno if you can [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Just 'cause it is an electronic device, the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. It [disfmarker] I think it does. I don't I don't think of a way you can operate a chip and convert that much data without without one. [speaker003:] Yeah, without the energy, yeah. [speaker002:] But you could maybe have it in a little charging station like a mobile phone, or like a little cradle for your iPod. [speaker003:] Yeah, that's that's possible. Yeah. [speaker002:] You could [disfmarker] we could maybe do that instead. So you don't ha you got like a rechargeable battery. [speaker001:] Charging. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I dunno, that might contribute to less people losing it too if it [vocalsound] it stays in one place. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] We have to think about um space in living-rooms, too, like 'cause they're [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I mean, would you put it on top of the TV? I don't know, just think [disfmarker] okay, that's [vocalsound] that's a good idea, we'll keep it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Think it's [disfmarker] [speaker002:] That's just off the top of my head. [speaker001:] And maybe fun. Okay. Um 'kay we're gonna conclude now, has everyone said their functions and [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker001:] 'kay. Um after the meeting we're gonna each complete a sks um a questionnaire and a summaries [disfmarker] summary. I don't know what summarisation. Um and then we'll have our lunch break. After that we have thirty minutes of individual work. Um I'll make sure to put up um the minutes and the project documentation and including these PowerPoint slides. If everyone could do that as well, that'd be great. Um you each have individual actions, I um ID Industrial Design you've your components concept, User Interface, the user interface concept, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] market trend wa watching. And as as per last time you'll get specific incrat instructions from your personal coach e-mailed to you. And hopefully, I hope, next time you'll be able to access more of the web site that they they seem to tell you that you could. [speaker002:] Yeah, [speaker001:] It's kinda frustrating, [speaker002:] who knows. [speaker001:] but um [disfmarker] Be sure to note any frustrations or any um issues that come up in your um in your um summary. [speaker002:] Okay [speaker001:] Mm 'kay? [speaker002:] Sounds good. [speaker001:] Great seeing y'all. [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] It's good. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Did you um [disfmarker] were you able to like put yours in the group folder? [speaker002:] Yes, I just did that. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Hopefully it is there for people. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker001:] Looks like there are um [disfmarker] looks like there's a second one kind of of mine that's [disfmarker] that I didn't do, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] it's from like an earlier project, I think so um [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Where is that? Yours is [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Under the shared folder, I don't know it might not even be under yours as well. [speaker002:] Technical. So in there we have technical functions presentation, working design presentation and the functional requirements. [speaker001:] Projects. [speaker002:] At least that's what I have in. [speaker004:] I only have three, I just have like our three. Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's what I have as well, R Rose [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] So. [speaker001:] You don't have mine? [speaker004:] No, but that's 'cause I think yours is in the e-mail separate, like it's not on the server. [speaker001:] S [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] But if I open it and then save it, probably will be there. Oh wait, never mind you can't save it to the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. Well I'll figure that out in the meantime. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay.

[speaker001:] Right first time this time. Nu There we go. It's not that complicated, but I get it wrong every time. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew [gap]. [speaker001:] For Matthew, yep. [speaker002:] Mm. Uh [disfmarker] So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Mm 'kay. [speaker002:] he's uh obviously late for some reason. [vocalsound] Good. Um. Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design. I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Um this will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh [gap]. Uh I will take some minutes uh again. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members, [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented. So and that uh will uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready? [speaker001:] I have a presentation, I'm just making this [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah I think [disfmarker] [vocalsound] yeah the [disfmarker] Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] because it's really a a team uh project with a team [speaker002:] Ah there is Matthew. [speaker004:] and if someone is not here then we cannot [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Sorry. [speaker004:] but it's okay [vocalsound] it's good. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay I'll just email you this file, my presentation. [speaker002:] So. Good. Do [gap] presentation ready? [speaker001:] Mm-hmm I'm just emailing it to you. [speaker002:] Oh okay. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] So did you manage uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah I sent you the slides, you didn't see them? [speaker002:] Oh yes I see him, good yes. [speaker003:] Okay. [gap]. [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] [vocalsound] 'Kay. [speaker001:] Okay it should've gone through to you. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Okay mm yes I have it. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment. Um can I just put this on? So we have to work out a way [disfmarker] what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it. Um. This is [disfmarker] to do this I will not remove my microphone. [vocalsound] We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time, the main results of that, and um some research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] and as part of this [disfmarker] The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really. The most important by far was the look and feel of it. It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there. It needs to stand out [vocalsound]. It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment. Most people find remote controls boring at the moment, we need to have something that looks interesting, that looks exciting, that will stand out. People will wanna buy it. Um [disfmarker] That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative [disfmarker] has to have something else, apart from just the look of it. People have to then think about it and say [gap] got something there that I want. That's a really cool feature, and it has to make them wanna buy it again. Third on the list, and again innovative was twice as important as this last um aspect, it has to be easy to use. So they have to be able to [disfmarker] be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um. Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment, uh fruit and vegetables um. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] This is basically talking about just the the feel of it, so probably not the smell of it, but the bright colours, um eye-catching, really bold designs, and a spongy feel. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Um I had a talk to the design people about this, but having a remote that's tactile, that feels different, that would be really cool. That would make it stand out. Um. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said? [speaker002:] Spongy feel? [speaker004:] Uh about the feeling yeah uh yo [speaker003:] [vocalsound] You can [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Well ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing. Spongy is the current texture, but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all, so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something, that'll be something that sets it apart, [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker001:] So as far as the design goes, the very most important aspect was the design, to the customers. So going with the fruit and vegetable idea, we've got the bright colours, so makes it stand out, the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours, part of the fruit and vegetables um. Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones, they've all got those [disfmarker] a lot of them have the changeable covers, so they can choose what colour the outside is. That's one way of looking at it um. Textured feel we just talked about. Maybe it's another way of doing that. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture, a spongy one or a soft one or something like that. So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe [disfmarker] to fit in with their decor in their living room, or just what they like, their sports team or whatever. [speaker004:] Yeah that's a very good idea, yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Um and yeah, still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality, the way the mobile phones work, the way the keypad looks. Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment. They're big selling items. People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that, and we can start using some of their ideas. Um back to technological in in innovation, not quite as important, but still a big issue. Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost, uh that's one thing we could look at. There are other aspects like LCD screens and speech recognition which weren't [disfmarker] I don't think, in my personal opinion, gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] I think we're better doing something basic like this which is very important and very [disfmarker] will be a really cool feature to put in. And [disfmarker] [gap] use. I had no real specific ideas for this, maybe we just, the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe, by themselves, [speaker002:] Mm. Yes well maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] and then [disfmarker] yeah [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [disfmarker] and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Voila. [speaker001:] Yep [vocalsound] and that's the presentation. [speaker002:] Okay good, that's very clear. [speaker004:] Yeah very clear. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] 'Kay. Um. Uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that? I think you [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Maybe we yes well we maybe [vocalsound] can decide later on um [vocalsound] the l the the look and feel of uh I've [disfmarker] it was a good idea maybe to to [disfmarker] [speaker004:] To let the people choose, [gap] you mean? [speaker002:] Yes the the the there are changeable covers, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because [vocalsound] you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Well we're selling so many units of this. This is gonna be a mass marketed product, [speaker002:] Hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] we can afford to have two or three different designs at least. [speaker004:] Yeah a range of uh yeah, a set of three, four different aspects. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Sure that fits the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yes [gap] and of course it will be a we we get a [disfmarker] if it works we can get uh after-sales [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] I mean that would [gap] would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three, five Euro [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's a very good idea um [disfmarker] And then uh maybe uh we can go a th Matthew's presentation because [speaker003:] Yeah s [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] then we could discuss later like [disfmarker] we can put all ideas together. [speaker002:] Together indeed uh, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah I agree. [speaker002:] because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use, [speaker003:] It should be easier with that. [speaker002:] what you were already mentioning. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah. And your part is very related to mine [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside. [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah so [vocalsound] I'll I'll go with that actually [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] so um [vocalsound] [disfmarker] Okay so m so [vocalsound] then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures, different forms, and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other, and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button. So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] So what I have found was that uh currently uh the [gap] they are mostly that the TV, VCR, music system operated ones actually, and they are very specific to each other, but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the VCR and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] and uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information, names, like [disfmarker] You can basically [disfmarker] if you have a multiple functionality, say TV, VCR or something I say it to the TV and the [gap] TV, and you can programme the keys if you want to, certain keys are even the channel information [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like BBC, rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad. [speaker003:] Yeah yeah [speaker001:] That's a good idea. [speaker003:] so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly, [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] even if you arrange it by [disfmarker] however you arrange it, you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Hmm. Mm. Yeah I really like that idea. [speaker004:] So what functionalities do you suggest for that? For facing this problem? [speaker003:] So it it it's like it [gap] limited one. In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for [vocalsound] eighty word thing, eighty word, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement, like eighty to hundred word. Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] you want to st store your favourite channel. [speaker001:] Maybe ten channels, yeah at the most. [speaker003:] Yeah some ten twelve channel information. You know [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with LCD display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie, and uh uh you are [vocalsound] having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is [gap] now, so I am using the TV so every time I use it, it could be like, for example I can use a simple toggle switch, and a display, so I press it so the display says, okay, I'm in TV or DVD or whatever it is, instead of having three keys separately for four keys, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. Oh yeah yeah yeah mm. [speaker003:] to model the functionalities will increase actually, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] and for you and you might want [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] you don't want separate keys for all of them. You can't. And uh well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them, and you can operate them. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present. I personally would look at [vocalsound] things like having a u universal remote, is uh um is a good idea, like instead of having [gap] unusual ones for all of them you can think of having, um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine, [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] and so if you say hello coffee machine, it say hi Joe, or something like that, [speaker001:] Mm b [speaker003:] you know, and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] But a coffee machine, there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah you you won't be using it, so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing, and very isolated word [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] and it's uh it is interesting, and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys, on the display for the browsing [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. [speaker003:] which is again [disfmarker] and maybe having something like a blinking thing, like uh it could indicate you're uh [disfmarker] it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote, the blinking. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] At the same time, if it's a dark room, it can be used to locate the remote also [vocalsound] [gap] or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And you want okay [disfmarker] for coming back to one point [speaker001:] Two thirty five supposed to finish. [speaker004:] y you want to let the user to programming the keys? Some of them? [speaker003:] Yeah you can let them to do that. [speaker004:] And uh isn't that too difficult for the [disfmarker] we want w I don't know if we still want the um RC to be easy to use, [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] that's the [gap] compromise. [speaker003:] N no but the [disfmarker] if you give [disfmarker] it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way, so if you want to give the full freedom to the user [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think you can do it both ways. [speaker003:] So it de [speaker001:] You can have it so it's easy [gap] they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it, [speaker004:] A standard. Yeah. [speaker001:] or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features. [speaker002:] Um yes [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] but but I do [vocalsound] [disfmarker] maybe you can [vocalsound] give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] I'm sorry to have [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Every time I have to come down on this price again [speaker001:] Hmm. Hmm. [speaker002:] to [vocalsound] so this might be a little limiting for your creativity, but it's it's it's the real [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] We have to consider it. S so [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] do we think these ideas [vocalsound] an and my uh sp speech recognition, I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uh uh the the the furry uh [vocalsound] uh case of the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm yeah like [vocalsound] I would say that for programming uh keys, you said, uh it could be uh easily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] but for the ASR system, uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this [speaker003:] We well we can still look at [disfmarker] [speaker004:] We [vocalsound] [speaker003:] we can talk with the coffee unit and you can uh check how much how much they [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented, [speaker003:] yeah yeah [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker004:] and w how much it's cost, maybe with a f cheap chip. [speaker003:] Maybe we can come [vocalsound] we we can talk to them, and we can come with that, [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker003:] you know. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And also well you can think of having uh since you have a [disfmarker] you know something [gap] maybe if you added little bit of [gap] display, you might need the [disfmarker] to che keep checking the battery, so you really need a some [vocalsound] kind of indicator, so it could be a blinking option of LED [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] it could actually be used to detect also. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] If it's in a dark room you can basically detect it also. [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. [speaker004:] Yeah [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker003:] So [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] I like the idea too of being able to use the remote in the dark, so either having the buttons so you can feel the difference between them or if they if they light up or something. [speaker003:] No actually [vocalsound] i if i it is like [disfmarker] you know it tells you um, it can be for two purposes, [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] like if you have an LCD display and all those things it's not going to be the standard remote, [speaker001:] Mm. Hmm. [speaker003:] which is having uh which need just uh six six volt uh th sorry three volts um of DC. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] It may need more actually, so y you you may need to check your battery usage it [disfmarker] and then you need that, some functionality to indicate the battery limit. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] It's true. [speaker003:] And then if the battery limit is indicated, if it could be ind indicated through a blinking something [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] and it can change the colour depending on your uh [disfmarker] how much is the battery, well that is good enough to even locate even if you want to. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] You know. [speaker004:] [gap]. [speaker002:] 'Kay good. [speaker003:] Yeah so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I don't know how if if I have time to talk about the [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm yes um [speaker003:] You you have time some more? [speaker002:] I would [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] Yes yes you can you can still. We have time. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Sure you can you know [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] So what I'm gonna present here is very uh um yeah basic knowledge about the all the the components that are inside a a RC a remote control, and how is it manufactured h what is the process, just to explain you. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So the method is [disfmarker] ther there is a a set of components in a in a remote control like [gap], and uh what cost [disfmarker] the the components in themself do not cost a lot but the the way to assemble everything costs obviously, and I will uh show you my preferences uh uh at the end. So there are two uh different types of uh um [disfmarker] Two different ways of using the the components for making a a remote control. [speaker002:] Nice. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Hmm. [speaker004:] Uh the basic way is to use a an integrated circuit and some uh transistors with an [gap] that aims at communicating uh uh the message and to to send the message to the um to the led that will uh transmit to the receiver. And uh yeah the other components and the circuit board [gap] buttons, infrared [vocalsound], led, etcetera, for the components um. So you [gap] finding, just to say that the chip can detect uh when a key is pressed, and then it translate to the key, to a sequence, something like morse code, as you know, uh with a different sequence for each key, [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and uh uh that's, with the components we will use, we will have different uh messages, different sequences, and the chips sends that signal signal to the transistor that amplify to make it stronger um. So electronic parts are assembled onto uh printed boards uh because it's easier to mass produce and assemble. And uh so I think [vocalsound] for our design we want some b uh programmable uh you know V VLSI or FPGA uh high technology, [speaker003:] Yeah mm mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and this is important, and also we'll use uh yeah like in any uh high-tech uh devices a chip of fi fibreglass to [gap] them and connect them. [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So my personal design [vocalsound] we need to find a solution what um what is the material of the cover we want to use. If it's plastic or you said that yeah you had some ideas uh like fruit, veg or [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] I dunno. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Well well [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] m m maybe m maybe we can give the uh the uh the case a very uh uh normal a v very normal case but, with the changeable covers to fancy it up. [speaker004:] Yes. Yes. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] So like a normal cheap plastic case which can be covered up in, for instance, a wooden case. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] Mm just have a yeah [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah like they do in with cars I think. Yeah inside the car [speaker001:] Just the veneer on it, [speaker004:] yeah. [speaker001:] yeah. [speaker004:] So they also emailed me that uh they have [vocalsound] available a bunch of different buttons, a scroll wheels, integrated push buttons s such as a [gap] computer mouse. And uh very cheap LCDs, so liquid crystal displays, [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] so I'm wondering, I think we might be able to integrate LCD into our RC. And the final point okay is um we have [disfmarker] yeah there are some uh compromise to to do. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker004:] So we have to know that the push button requires a simple chip, but the scroll wheel uh and that kind of higher high-tech stuff needs more money um which is a higher price range alright. And the display requires an advanced chip, which in turns is more expensive than the regular chip, but [vocalsound] I think uh with twelve Euros um and if it's uh uh made for mm four million uh items, then I think w we could be able to handle that. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] So to [vocalsound] to sum up um we need [vocalsound] yeah so I I just said that the components uh the list of components uh has to be uh yeah listed and um and um assembly is a an important process that has to be taken into account. And uh for the designing of the cove uh uh cover layout then it's better to to to maybe see that with uh the the UR exp URI Expert [speaker003:] Sorry. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] so that we can [disfmarker] it's really a team-working uh. So [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I I cannot design something without your agreement, [speaker003:] Yeah so [speaker004:] right? [speaker002:] No of course. [speaker003:] of course for example uh I wanted to know like if you want to have a a fo if you want to have the LCD display over there, [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] or if you want to store a programmes with a keys [disfmarker] What kind of things you'll need inside your thin inside [disfmarker] W wh what [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah it's kind of um simple [gap] pro progra programmable device, and we have to insert. [speaker003:] W what [disfmarker] Okay. [speaker004:] I think we could insert one that could underlie several functions [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] of [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Okay so in that case you can even look at the technology what the mobile phone is trying to use with the [gap] card. [speaker004:] Exactly yeah, for customizing and yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah where they do all the wi with with them actually. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] How f cost effective it would be to put that car chip into it and do the programmable things. [speaker004:] Yeah. Yeah good idea. [speaker002:] So [disfmarker] So I f I think we we should come to some decisions now uh a about this. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Um so I understand uh when we want a display we need a expensive chip, but when we want a scrolling wheel w we also need the expensive chip, so can we use same chip, so with one expensive chip we can uh implement several complicated uh or advanced features. [speaker004:] Exactly yeah that's a very good idea, [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] we could have uh one main chip uh that could handle, uh it's called FPGA chip, that could handle both uh like scrolling wheels as well as uh LCD [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] and yeah. [speaker002:] So when the more expensive chip you mentioned there is is possible in the in the given budget, uh maybe we should go for for the more expensive chip, so all features uh which you mentioned can be implemented based on the same chip. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] D well [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Do you think that's feasible? [speaker003:] Well I don't know if it'll fit into our cost of twelve point five Euro you know. [speaker002:] Uh [disfmarker] You th you think it's possible. [speaker003:] Is it possible to fit in to that? [speaker004:] Yeah also thinking, I think both uh [disfmarker] if we had a budget of twenty twenty uh Euros, it will be okay, [speaker003:] Sorry. [speaker002:] Hmm. [speaker004:] but uh [disfmarker] [gap]. [speaker001:] Well maybe we need specific costings then. Actually do maybe two designs and then cost them out and see which one is gonna fit in our budget better. [speaker004:] Yeah that's an excellent idea. [speaker002:] Mm yes wh when you make a [vocalsound] a design ca you can [vocalsound] [disfmarker] next meeting you can give an quite an exact cost price. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah. Yeah [speaker002:] That w that would be a very good idea. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] because right now I don't have [gap] price in in head but for next meeting I'm sure yeah be able to do that. [speaker002:] Mm. Good good. [speaker003:] Yeah that's uh that's something which I wanted to ask you also, like what will be the each individually the cost of it. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] For example if f if you want to put wood [disfmarker] I wouldn't suggest for wood [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] uh [gap] 'cause it's [disfmarker] I think it's m much easier to use a plastic or a rubber [gap] rather than wood. [speaker004:] I agree on that. Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] It will be much ch much expensive th though it's the most natural thing, but [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yes but I can I think uh I think we can just use more cheap plastic for a kind of basic edition, and then people can fancy it up with with more expensive materials [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah it's uh [disfmarker] [speaker002:] which which come with a with another price. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah we we can give a preference to them, but it is [gap] but with plastic or the rubber or whatever it is [disfmarker] it's much better with that rather than going for [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Do do you agree? [speaker004:] Yeah but i it's a detailed uh yeah yeah uh plastic versus uh wood, [speaker001:] Mm yeah sure. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and we need maybe to centre our description on uh the the really the what buttons what uh functionality we want to offer to the user, and maybe with uh [vocalsound] graphs or I don't know uh [disfmarker] [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] User Interface Designer you could maybe uh help us on that. [speaker002:] Ma I I think uh for next meeting we c [vocalsound] you two can present a real design. Uh so drawing it on the board. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yea [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker004:] Perfect yeah. [speaker002:] And then we now sh only have to t to decide the general function uh. So um [disfmarker] Let let's say next meeting w [vocalsound] you produce two designs, one one one less advanced and one more advanced and with the cost price. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah sure. Yeah we will uh [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Uh furthermore we go for the for the uh basic plastic case [speaker003:] Uh. [speaker002:] which can be later uh fancied up with uh with addit uh additional uh, how do you call them, these like like mobile telephones you can put a cover over it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But that that that that can be done later. [speaker004:] Yeah customized. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker002:] We now can concentrate on the on the basic remote control. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Um. [speaker003:] Okay [vocalsound] [gap]. We can give them smooth keys, you know. Smooth keys with bigger s uh [disfmarker] So that you know [disfmarker] The the problem most of the time we've seen, the keys is that it's small, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] and every time we have to be very [disfmarker] but if i the [disfmarker] if we if we go to a different ways of designing those keys, then you can merge them together [speaker001:] So is there any of these that you're looking at particularly [speaker003:] to [disfmarker] [speaker001:] or is this just ideas? [speaker003:] Oh you can actually, for example, if you see, they are they are they are quite small over here, [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] and uh [vocalsound] now you can, for example, as I was [gap] if you make them big, it may change the look of the thing also to the people. [speaker001:] Hmm. Mm. [speaker003:] At the same time, it is m more uh like it would be more interesting for people who are having this RSI and all [gap] problem. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Mm yeah. [speaker002:] Yes yes yes bi big keys is is good thing I think. [speaker003:] Uh big keys may better [gap] for them actually and uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You see? [speaker004:] I agree yeah, and not too m too many keys of course yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] No no. [speaker001:] Mm well [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] one I've had before, a r r remote control we have at home is one that's actually got a cover on the bottom so the bottom bit is just, covers half the keys most of the time, [speaker002:] Mm mm mm. [speaker001:] and then you can slide the cover back to get to the the more advanced keys. [speaker002:] Mm w but then you have still have uh [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] when you don't [gap] use it you have such a a an extent of your remote control which you don't use. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So maybe it's possible uh, I don't know whether you can can indicate this, that you can elsewhere open your remote control and on the inside are uh buttons you don't use that much. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. Um yeah I've seen that before too. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Anoth another like b it flips up and then you've got another layer of buttons underneath. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes. Yeah so it's something like this, the model here s [gap] you can put the keys [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker001:] But I've seen also with keys and buttons on the top of here as well. [speaker004:] That's what you mean? [speaker002:] Yes I I th that's what I mean [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] so I mean something like like a book. [speaker001:] I like this one. I like the shape of this one. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] Can we have [disfmarker] can we think about maybe having a a non-recta non non-rectangular one, so with not just the straight little box [speaker004:] Yeah I like also this one. [speaker001:] that's a [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Yeah, [speaker001:] maybe curved or something. [speaker003:] Yeah, mm. [speaker004:] the point is w maybe we need to also to make a decision on how how how big we want to be and how many buttons like n we should [vocalsound] dec decide numbers or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm mm 'kay. [speaker003:] We should make a [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Is this for the next meeting though? I think we might be out of time out of time for this meeting. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah that [disfmarker] yeah next meeting we should be [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Ju just make two designs, [speaker003:] Yeah that would depend upon us actually. [speaker004:] Yeah yeah yeah. [speaker002:] and the we we can decide decide between th those designs. [speaker001:] Yep. [speaker003:] Yeah okay. [speaker002:] I think that would be a good idea. [speaker004:] Perfect. [speaker002:] So anyone uh any questions for now? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] No no. I don't have. [speaker001:] No. So is this [disfmarker] is there anything else I need to do from a marketing point of view for the next meeting? [speaker002:] Um yes I come to that uh uh [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Maybe it would be interesting if you could look um for the cost inventories of other devices, if you're using speech recognition or something like that. [speaker002:] Yes well m maybe uh, I don't know whether that's possible, maybe you can start evaluating uh their work somehow. [speaker001:] Mm. Okay well is this [vocalsound] me designing a way to evaluate it so [disfmarker] Thinking about how to set up test groups and things? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I don't know whether that's possible uh in the given time [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] but a as far as possible. [speaker001:] Okay. Yep. [speaker002:] So uh you two will be together w working on a o on two prototypes [speaker004:] Exactly. [speaker003:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and further instructions will be uh will be sent to you by uh by email. [speaker004:] Two or three prototypes? [speaker003:] Two. [speaker002:] Two. [speaker004:] Two? [speaker003:] One for like cost and the one with like higher-end [speaker002:] I [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] Mm [gap] and then [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] so that then we can be easily comparing them [speaker004:] Yeah [speaker003:] or you know find a compromise between both of them, [speaker002:] Hmm. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] and find maybe a compromise. [speaker001:] Hmm. [speaker002:] Yes okay. [speaker003:] yeah that's how it is. [speaker004:] Perfect yeah. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] Okay let's call this to an end. [speaker001:] Mm 'kay. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] Thanks guys. [speaker004:] Thanks. [speaker003:] So we are done for now. [gap].

[speaker004:] Is this okay? [speaker001:] Uh yeah. Fine now. Oh, it's not liking us, it went that-a-way. Computer adjusting. Oh. Uh. Okay. [vocalsound] So. Right. You ready back there? [vocalsound] Uh okay. Welcome everyone. Um this is the kick-off meeting for the day. Um we're the new group uh to create a new remote control for Real Reaction. As you can see our agenda is to open up the meeting, um become acquainted with each other, um have a little training on tools, uh create a plan, discuss things and and we only have twenty minut twenty five minutes total. Okay. The new remote control is to be original, trendy and user-friendly. That, Steph, is your part, is the user-friendliness. The originality um is gonna take all of us. Um the trendiness we'll probably go look at [disfmarker] for some marketing research information from you, Sarah. Um and we'll get on with it. Okay, so we'll have a functional design individual work um with meeting and then conceptual design t and then detailed design. Okay? Right. Everybody's supposed to try out the whiteboard. Kate, why don't you try it first, if you can either bring your things with you, I guess [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Uh yeah, if I can pick up with all these bits and pieces, hang on. [speaker001:] And while you're doing that we'll try and figure out how to hook these things on as well, 'cause we're all gonna have to be able to walk around. [speaker002:] Uh right, so you want an animal and the characteristics of that animal. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Do you have to be able to recognise what animal it is? [vocalsound] Um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh I do not think so, [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Are we all gonna draw a cat? [speaker001:] I think it's just to try out the whiteboard. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Only animal I could thin I could draw [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] I know. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Ah [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] Its a sort of bunny rabbit cat. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] You can tell it's not a bunny rabbit by the ears. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker002:] Um I suppose it should have a mouth as well, sort of [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] Right, yeah. [speaker001:] Great. And the characteristics? [speaker002:] Um the favourite characteristics of the cat um [disfmarker] the whiskers I think, um because they're the easiest to draw. [speaker001:] Uh-huh. [speaker002:] In fact, I'll give it some more [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Oh, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker002:] and the tail [speaker001:] Fantastic. Since you're handy as well, why don't you do yours next, Steph. I think it's to get us used to using the pen. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yes. Um sure it's not to test our artistic [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Uh no. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] It's a mouse. [speaker001:] A mouse-y? [speaker003:] That's not a mouse-y, no. [speaker002:] No it's not a mouse. It's a wombat. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] It's a ratty. [speaker001:] Argh. [speaker002:] A what? [speaker003:] A ratty. [speaker001:] Rat. Not a mouse, a rat. [speaker002:] A webbed foot. Webbed f [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] It's clothes. That's it's clothes. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Oh right [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] It's a ratty with a with a with a very long tail. [speaker001:] And your favourite characteristics of that animal. [speaker003:] I love whiskers. Uh they're intelligent and they're cheeky [vocalsound] and uh fantastic pets and very friendly. [speaker001:] Oh. Okay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And they sit on your shoulder [speaker001:] Kate? [speaker003:] and whisper the answers to your homework in your ear when you're doing your homework. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Oh, a fish. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Gosh, [speaker003:] A shark? [speaker002:] why didn't I think of fish? That's even easier to draw than cat. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm [vocalsound] this is very representational fish. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Oh, okay. Fine. [speaker004:] Um I like them because they're sleek [speaker001:] Favourite characteristics? [speaker004:] and they have a lot of freedom but they also do n uh swim in groups, so. [speaker001:] 'Kay. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] So [speaker004:] Do you have a favourite one? [speaker001:] they have team elements. [vocalsound] I'm afraid I'm with Steph. And I think your pen's running out of whatever. But I'm afraid I take the coward's way out, and the cat's looking the other way. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] He's hiding. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Um cats are sometimes very independent. My parents had cats. Uh and they can mm decide for themselves what is best. Okay. Now um [vocalsound] we have to get down to the nitty-gritty of how to make this and this remote control has to be sold [disfmarker] um we're to sell it for twenty five Euros, with a profit aim ultimately of fifty million Euros. That tells you something about how many um we have to sell on an international scale. Um would be an awful lot of these, would be like what, a hundred million of them um to make twenty five Euros on each one and to make a total profit of fifty million. Um the production is to only cost twelve and a half Euros per item. Now if they cost twelve and a half, you're selling it for twenty five, you're making twelve and a half Euros each. Um and we're to make a profit of fifty million, that's t uh [disfmarker] can you do the maths and how many are we selling? [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Uh yeah. [vocalsound] I was just wondering if that's the um [disfmarker] If fifty percent is normal [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mark-up? [speaker004:] B yeah. Um I would think would be more like sixty percent. But um let me [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] I have two thoughts. One hundred, fifty percent. And and your question is how many do we have to sell? [speaker001:] [gap] Yes, 'cause our market um is international and your problem is [disfmarker] has to do with marketing of [disfmarker] you know, you gotta know how many we're going to be selling to know how big a market you have to target and who is that. [speaker004:] At twenty five. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's um [disfmarker] [speaker001:] To give you a pretty good idea of where you're looking. [speaker004:] So that's four million of them? [speaker001:] Something like that? Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That's fifty million Euros. In order to make fifty million Euros, and you're only getting twelve and a half each [disfmarker] [speaker004:] And if we make [disfmarker] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] That's a lot of selling. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Two four [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Four million. [speaker001:] To be fifty, be four million. You'd have to sell four million. [speaker004:] Hmm. [speaker001:] Okay? Right. Experience with a remote control. Any of you use of remote control for a television or DVD or something? [speaker002:] That that that's the sorta product we're talking about, one that will work for a [disfmarker] in a home environment, for a TVs and [disfmarker] [speaker001:] You're both nodding, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] all three. Well I've seen some remote controls that are for more than one device at a time, but I also have heard about them not working well or not well co-ordinated and you wind up working with this one for thi this three and then this one over here for another. [speaker003:] It is true that you always sit around [disfmarker] you know, you're sitting on your sofa and you wanna change something, there's five different remotes, and one for the DVD and one for the video and one for cable and one for whatever else. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Mm-hmm. Y yeah. [speaker001:] And they don't always talk to each other. [speaker003:] But I presume this is t I presume this is just for television. [speaker001:] Don't know. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Okay. Are there any um ideas for the remote? What would it be for and what group would be be for? We have to think about that one. [speaker004:] We could make a Hello Kitty [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] themed remote. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] I think one in b bright colours would be good. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I think one that works would be good. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] We could totally go for the Japan-a-mation. Well I mean there's also the cachet that um uh the Japanese make great [vocalsound] products. Electrical [disfmarker] their industrial design is very good. [speaker003:] I think one that doesn't have lots of superfluous functions. Like I've got one at home that has well, apart from the obvious, channels, channel up, channel down, volume, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] you know, subtitles, mute, there's a lotta buttons that I've got no idea what they do, like [vocalsound]. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Well, that's a really good point, because I think one of the things that [disfmarker] being somewhat computer literate, we tend to um go to menus and then make choices, [speaker001:] Okay. [speaker004:] you know, so if it's like an uh volume button, you know, you can go in and say mute or or volume. We don't need to have like the l the numbers if we also have uh uh channel up channel down. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] Mm. We can make it smart like an iPod, you know, make everything menus. [speaker003:] Ooh, closing the meeting. [speaker001:] Yeah. Um I know this sounds like it was very quick, [speaker003:] That was quick. [speaker001:] but the I think that's the industrial design is the first one, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] that's Kate, for the working design. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] And user, that's you S Steph, for the technical functions design, and for marketing the user requirements specification. I think there's going to be a lot of [disfmarker] we have to help each other and work through this as a group, and I think we all, you know, [vocalsound] we like our kitty-cat and our rat and our fish, but I think we all have to like each other um to get this done. Uh as it says, we're gonna get individual instructions, but uh I don't think they allowed a lot of extra time, so I think a little bit of less of this and more at do will set us in good stead. Do you all agree? [speaker003:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Alright. Um then I don't see any reason to prolong it and f we should finish this meeting at ni right now and go into other things. Alright, so this is the end of the first meeting. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] 'Kay. [speaker001:] Thank you all.

[speaker001:] So we come again for the the second meeting. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker001:] Uh for the aim of this meeting now is to to make presentation about uh the work for each one. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] And [gap] take the the decision about the the design and the functionality of the the remote control. [speaker002:] Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] And we have [disfmarker] think I got a new project requirement. So I think uh teletext becomes outdated. So the popularity of the [disfmarker] since the popularity of the internet, [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] and I think we don't need lighting adaptive, so the remote control should be only used for the the television. And of course we should have our image [gap] in the in the design. So, let's start with the the industrial designer. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yeah, alright. [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker003:] So uh [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Or y you can use the whiteboard if you want. [speaker003:] Well I have a PowerPoint pr presentation stored in my in my personal folder [speaker001:] Here. [speaker003:] so I I I think you can reach it from here. [speaker004:] Just go to explorer. Or open. [speaker001:] Oh okay. [speaker004:] Participant two. [speaker003:] Participant two. [speaker001:] This one. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Open uh. [speaker003:] Uh open. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Do you want to open [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because it's open you mean. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Right, so um I will talk about the the w working design and [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] F five. [speaker004:] Slide show, view slide show, [gap]. [speaker001:] Ah. [speaker003:] And um well I I will present my my first idea on how to build the [disfmarker] our new remote control for television. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So uh can you go one page down, please. So I think the first things to do is to define the hardware components neededs to achieve uh what we want to do. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] So uh mm I'm thin uh [vocalsound] I think uh I I'll do a survey about what is uh what is available on the market and what what is the the cheapest possible [vocalsound] things we hav we can use. Then uh I will try with the technical team to to build a prototype and to see uh with uh h how this little box [vocalsound] would uh look look like. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And how an and we can uh start troubleshooting first uh com communication problems or things like that. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And when we are ready with this first prototype I I think we can add some software functionalities on a programmable chip like browsing by content or um things like that. Okay so can you go down uh [disfmarker] So, wha what I think [vocalsound] for now [vocalsound] is [vocalsound] we don't want to have a remote control w which is wired [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] so uh I think we u we can use a battery for the [gap]. Then two programmable chips for both software functionalities and communication. And the communication with the TV set is uh made through uh infrared communication So uh this is the [vocalsound] the schema of the [vocalsound] o of the future uh remote controls [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Did you draw it? [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] Wow. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] so uh you can you can see the components, uh battery and uh the two chips goes to the infrared uh connection to the TV set. [speaker002:] This [gap]. [speaker001:] This [disfmarker] [speaker002:] What is the other chip for? The one on top. [speaker003:] The one on top is for the um [disfmarker] well the functionali the functionalities [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] One is a communication. [speaker003:] and the the th red um [disfmarker] sorry the green one is is to [disfmarker] well, putting things together, um f transform the data into uh qu into the format to to [gap] uh to communicate with the TV set. [speaker002:] For men. To the [disfmarker] in [disfmarker] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker003:] And, that's it. I think we should use a FPGA for [vocalsound] for the functionalities which is easy to to t [speaker002:] Mm. What is FPGA? [speaker003:] It's field programmable uh something array. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Gateway arrays. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker004:] It's a field programmable gateway arrays. [speaker002:] So why's it [disfmarker] how is it different from the Bluetooth? [speaker003:] Well, uh a FPGA is just a chip you can uh you can [gap] pr programme it uh wi with wh whatever you want. [speaker002:] Yeah. Programme it. [speaker004:] Yeah [gap]. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] And uh well the Bluetooth chip is just responsible to uh make the communication uh between uh the two devices. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Uh [disfmarker] So this are the [disfmarker] they have to work together? Or? Do they have to work together or two separate choice [disfmarker] [speaker003:] No. Well, th the FPGA will produce the the data to send. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Or it's something like [disfmarker] isn't hardware the first one? And the second one is for the software. [speaker002:] Is the is the software par [speaker004:] Yeah to run th to make it run. [speaker002:] alri okay. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] That's it. [speaker002:] Okay, okay. So you can control [gap] if you want, right? [speaker003:] Yeah [vocalsound]. [speaker004:] No. [speaker003:] Alright and that's it for the working design. So if you have any questions? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Mm. [speaker004:] Okay, and how about the battery power? Uh you mean that battery would be somewhere there and the remote contro the power to the battery comes through infrared? [speaker003:] Uh no no no no, I think uh we have uh to to uh have uh embedded uh b batteries in in the [disfmarker] [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker004:] Into the [vocalsound] [speaker003:] yeah into the t. [speaker004:] more compact and uh [disfmarker] okay, [gap] [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] And uh I I don't think it will need um [vocalsound] very uh much power to make it run, so [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Mm. Mm. [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah. Okay. [speaker002:] Mm. You can put it on the charger when uh you when you don't need to use it. [speaker003:] Yeah. It's a good idea. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's right. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Having a charger rather than putting the battery cells always. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] People don't like it to have to buy the batteries when they run out. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker004:] We just make a small charger [speaker002:] Uh [disfmarker] mm. Y yeah, yeah. [speaker004:] and put it [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Because you are using because you are using Bluetooth, if some people have PDA they can use their PDA to control the TV if they want to, right? [speaker003:] That's a good idea. [speaker001:] You can i yeah. [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Ma [speaker003:] Also, but but [vocalsound] I I I think uh the the goal is to sell our remote [vocalsound] control. [speaker004:] Bu [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I dunno. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah we can change the b [gap]. [speaker004:] Our remote, [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] we do not want to make it PDA. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] S [vocalsound] okay, so charger for [gap] is the [gap]. [speaker001:] Um. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So is mine. [speaker001:] It's mine. [speaker002:] Oh. [speaker001:] Participant one, no? [speaker002:] Yeah, this your [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. Oh we have [gap] so let's move to to user interface design [gap]. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] So you can open uh [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Participant [disfmarker] [speaker002:] three. Yeah. [vocalsound] So [disfmarker] So I'm working on the technical functions design. [gap] can you show the next slide. So the the purpose is to to find uh the important questions to ask is what effect should the apparatus have. So [vocalsound] so I found on a webs on the internet [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] During the weekend. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [disfmarker] yeah. [vocalsound] I spent a lot of time searching [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] That's good. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] and uh and I found that uh the function of remote control is to send messages to television set. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] G [speaker002:] [vocalsound] For example switch on, switch off, switch the next channel and so on and so on. So I found two very good prototypes for [vocalsound] for this interface from our competitors [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] so can you [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] This are usual functionality [gap]. [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ours is a bit uh different. So these are two example. One is from [vocalsound] [gap] the other one is from, yeah, uh engineering centr yeah. [speaker001:] Tasks. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] This is the most competing prototypes I've found [vocalsound]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] But then uh loo but then I found if you look at [disfmarker] you see on the left one there are too many buttons [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] And they are small [gap]. [speaker002:] Yeah. O on the right I tried to play with [vocalsound] the problem is that uh if I have hundred channels I have uh I have to choo press the other button to choose the hundred channels and I have to compose the number [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] so it's very lousy. [speaker003:] Of course. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So you [vocalsound] so you move to the next the next one. Yeah, so I talk about the problem. And then I I look at the user manual they are a hundred pages thick, so we don't want that. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] So I propose the easy to use uh prototype. You can navigate on TV screen and we can [gap] the user's preference and we need to have the TV connected to internet so we end [disfmarker] in order to access the TV programmes by XML and we need some [disfmarker] to do some preprocessing. From the technical aspect, the processing should be done on the TV set than on the [vocalsound] on the remote controller, right? [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] And then we [disfmarker] the speech recognition as uh Harry says we may just put in [disfmarker] we may KIV. [speaker001:] What do you mean by the pa pa processing will be done on the TV [speaker002:] Yeah, all the processing is done [disfmarker] the TV is a compu has some processing power the [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] than the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] So we have to t [speaker001:] So we should have specific TV? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Or? We can use this. [speaker003:] We have to sell a TV with the remote control too. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, we don't [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Yeah because [disfmarker] [vocalsound] are you just wondering what controller [disfmarker] okay. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think so. [speaker004:] Yeah, not the TVs. [speaker001:] J j just the remote control. [speaker003:] I think there there is there is al there there is a a technology like show view who is already available on most of the TV set on recorders or thing like that [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and we can try t to get this information on to the remote control to to do the processing on the remote control because [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's right. [speaker002:] So i the processing on on the remote controller [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah, [speaker002:] so it can u be used in any TV, any conventional TV sets? [speaker001:] we [gap]. Yeah. [speaker002:] Mm. Okay. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Speech recognition. [speaker002:] N yeah, that's all. The next one? So I come up with a simple design, just keep the v navigation buttons. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Yes, that's a good idea, I think. [speaker001:] Keep the navigation [speaker003:] We d we don't we we don't need really much buttons to [disfmarker] i if we have a screen to navigate on on the TV so uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] but [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well, f four five buttons, it's sufficient. [speaker002:] Yeah. Mm. [speaker003:] It's easy to build, [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Yeah, that's right. [speaker003:] it does not consume much power. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [gap]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay, that's all. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] Oh, but you have a catch there, um assume that um if you want to go to [disfmarker] if you are watching channel two and if you want to go to channel ninety nine, then [vocalsound]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] Well, then y you you go to the main menu and uh you have uh go to channel and then uh you [gap] can [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. No, because you choose by channel, so [disfmarker] you choose by TV program [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Uh-huh huh huh huh. [speaker003:] Maybe you [disfmarker] [speaker002:] so you don't have hundred channels to choose from. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] Mm-hmm hmm hmm. [speaker002:] If you go by channel, you don't have to do that. [speaker003:] [gap] but uh I I think i i [gap] if you if you want to to make uh [disfmarker] well a a big jump [vocalsound] [gap] but uh well you you have to to have a a a device when you could you could [disfmarker] [speaker004:] But [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So you are [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Ah. Ah, a big jump. [speaker004:] Yeah then yeah that's right. [speaker002:] A mouse or [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well, not a mouse but uh something that that says more clearly that uh right, left, up, down, [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mm hmm hmm. Okay. [speaker003:] well, the to have the ability to to to write something to the navigator, maybe directly, or [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker003:] So, [speaker002:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker003:] we can think of buttons like in the telephone to send messages or things like that. [speaker002:] Mm-hmm. [speaker003:] But we'll see. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] How the [gap] this remote? [speaker002:] Uh it's gonna be small. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah, of course [vocalsound] small. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] Yeah. So it'll beep if you wanna find it [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [gap] too small that it goes under the sofa and we can't find it. [vocalsound] [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] you just uh shout [disfmarker] y h just [disfmarker] it just has to re respond to you when you look for the device. [speaker004:] Yeah, that's [gap]. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] I dunno how bu [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [gap] just [gap] give it a name and we call him. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] And [gap] responds to you, and [gap] [vocalsound] [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. [speaker003:] Okay, so uh next presentation [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Participant four. So Harry. [speaker004:] Okay, after having the inputs from [vocalsound] industrial design and user interface, I think most of the points which I want to are already covered here. [speaker003:] Mm. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] And to find the most interesting features what the users would be interested, then what we have done is we have put a feedback forms in all the magazines, and the users send the feedbacks, and based on that [disfmarker] These are the findings which we got and [disfmarker] yeah adding of a speech interface is always good for a TV remote but the technology [disfmarker] We already know that [disfmarker] as discussed earlier [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Well I I think it will be a, yes, a bit complicated to um make a speech recognisers runs on the small uh ts [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] An [vocalsound] it does [gap] how feasible it is. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] I- [vocalsound] mm. But I think if you [gap] to recognise numbers it's a well-studied problem. I if you just recognise uh numbers is a limited [disfmarker] you have limited vocabulary [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Oh we can put an limited vocabulary as in the mobile phones. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] We just have the [disfmarker] [speaker003:] And this can allow to choose the the program, for instance without uh adding uh buttons [speaker002:] Mm. Yeah. [speaker003:] so it's a good idea. [speaker004:] [gap] it's not going to take much space also. It's going to be very slim. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] And next one was the size of the remote control. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] It has to be of course a very slim and small one. And of course most of the people are interested in if it's less expensive, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm-hmm. [speaker004:] so this is an important criteria here is [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] But [disfmarker] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] But do you think what they sug suggested s possibility [gap]. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I mean we have to look for a trade-off. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] The features and the cost. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] I no [disfmarker] I I think that uh i if we go for quality people may tolerate for high quality and of course comes with uh reasonable cost. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] Yeah. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Maybe not less, but they may be willing to pay little bit more for comfort, [speaker004:] Little bit more if it's with extra features. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] It [disfmarker] Yeah. [speaker002:] yeah, extra features. [speaker003:] Yeah, s s speech is a important extra feature I think [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's right. [speaker002:] Mm. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker001:] But is it useful or not u [speaker003:] Well, uh [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker001:] I don't know. There is [gap] in the [vocalsound] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I mean, for a lazy guys they could say nine and the nine channel comes. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] Or they say movie name [disfmarker] or I don't go for movie names but only for the numbers on the channel, or volume up, volume down, brightness, contrast. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker004:] So, I think this should be a good idea, to put this features. And the fourth one was the teletext in various languages. [speaker003:] we we just have to find a mean how to to add a m a a a microphone or uh well [disfmarker] yes a microphone into the the remote control, so [disfmarker] [speaker004:] Mm, I think [disfmarker] [speaker003:] I [disfmarker] well [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker001:] I think i [vocalsound] [speaker003:] it will be alright. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] What is the teletext? [speaker001:] [vocalsound] If it's necessary can [disfmarker] you can do that. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] We can integrate small microphone in the remote [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so it's not really a problem. [speaker003:] Okay. [speaker001:] What about lighting adaptive options? [speaker004:] Yeah as discussed in the earlier meeting, but [vocalsound] I think uh not much people are really interested in this point if it's not really required. [speaker001:] According to the re to the new requirements I think we don't need that. Yeah. [speaker002:] It is interesting but we are only concerned with the remote controller. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] So you need s special TV sets to do that? Or it's it's done via this remote controller? It's very complex. [speaker004:] I mean [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, I think it's a bit complex too [disfmarker] [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] I mean [disfmarker] yeah, it's for the um industrial design and users interface designers to decide if it's going to be working or not. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] For our next product, our new TV set with uh automatical uh sound adjustment [vocalsound] light [gap] [disfmarker] [speaker004:] I think [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Yeah, then we can conclude that. [speaker001:] [vocalsound] [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah, but it's quite possible but maybe not in this project. [speaker001:] So we have [disfmarker] I think we have s still we have couple of minutes. Mm-mm. [vocalsound] So any things to to discuss? [speaker004:] I think as I discussed th that four points would be good for um marketing. [speaker001:] Or any suggestions? [speaker002:] [vocalsound] [vocalsound] [speaker004:] The speech interface and uh less uh reasonable uh cost. [speaker001:] Expensive. Price. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] And the lighting adaptation and the teletext. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] And regarding the teletext uh these are the subtitl these are the text information which you got on the televisions. [speaker002:] [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] If you are watching an foreign movie, you get [gap] subtitles sometimes. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Okay. [speaker004:] And uh if you are a French guy watching an English movie you would like to have it in French. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] [gap]. [speaker004:] And if I am a German then I would like to have the [disfmarker] my options in German. So, the remote [disfmarker] it should have some [disfmarker] it should give me some flexibility of choosing the ch languages. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Function. [speaker004:] That should be a good uh point. [speaker003:] Yeah, but well what about the the new project's requirement? I I I think we should give up with teletext, no? [speaker001:] I think we we can we [disfmarker] [gap] is the [gap]. [speaker003:] Yes. Well, so maybe we we can j we can already think uh [vocalsound] about a way to to access the internet via the television. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Because if [disfmarker] [speaker002:] Using the TV to access the internet? Or what? I didn't quite understand [disfmarker] [speaker003:] Yeah, but uh we can think that in a few years there will be TV set that can access the internet. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah, okay. [speaker003:] So it's a good idea if i i if we i if if we uh think about how to to to build up our remote uh control w with this functionality in a [disfmarker] w which will c which will come in a few years. [speaker004:] We already have some [gap]. [speaker003:] So if we already have it in our remote control [disfmarker] [speaker001:] So you have to anticipate the the future? [speaker003:] Yeah. [vocalsound] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. [vocalsound] The future demand, market demand. [vocalsound] [speaker004:] [vocalsound] Yeah, that's right. [speaker003:] Yeah, to desi well, not not to implement it, but to [disfmarker] well, to find a way to to add to add this functionality in a [disfmarker] yeah, in an in an easy manner, if is possible. [vocalsound] [speaker002:] The functionality in the future. [speaker001:] [gap]. In future. [speaker002:] Alright. Yeah. Because all the TV sets will be digital, right. All the programmes, everything will be in digital than analog. Th the system will change and we have to anticipate for those change. [speaker003:] [vocalsound] Yeah, yeah. [speaker004:] Yeah, [gap]. [speaker003:] Okay. So [disfmarker] [speaker001:] Okay. So let's go for the the lunch break, and we will meet after. [speaker003:] Okay, thank you. [speaker004:] Okay, thank you. [speaker002:] Okay. Thank you.

[Don:] Aha... and that gets rid of it from the front page. Sorry Rod, do you want me to [speaker002:] No, it's okay... er, just carry on cos I'm just looking for a piece of paper to write it on. [Don:] the was that the first one was... was more or less science orientated an I I, I looked at it and thought how how I could... how I could make it... such that it was common [speaker002:] Yep. [Don:] er, so that Angela could use it you know. Erm... and I came up with this bit, sort of the middle bit, national curriculum levels... would be... er... your own thing... right? That wou tha that bit would be... erm... different for each subject. The middle bit [speaker002:] Yeah. [Don:] whereas [speaker002:] These? [Don:] the top bit and the bottom bit with the at all [speaker002:] Mm mm. [Don:] and the format would be the same and you just have different... names on the top here [speaker002:] Yeah. [Don:] so it would be the same sort of format. And if you didn't want to... do national curriculum levels or it wasn't appropriate... then you could continue your staff comment now... or you could... draw a wee picture there or something like that, you know? [speaker002:] Yeah, and comments. [speaker003:] Er, the first thing is I put on the top of my draught that I'd rather the pupils weren't involved at this stage... I'd rather they were involved in the over view with form tutor. So I, I wouldn't have taken, make a pupil comment on that section. I'm not very happy with my box! [speaker002:] Why what's wrong with it? [speaker003:] Well, the first one [Don:] You mean, you're on page two now? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right. [Don:] Well can we not talk about page one first? [speaker004:] Can can we to some [speaker003:] Yes, alright then. [speaker004:] ignore page two because it's the next stage on, in fact,yo because it's a summation sheet isn't it? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Alright? We're actually at the moment the the the brief, the focus is to actually on what we, look at what we would send out as a report to parents. That performs a second function [Don:] That's, that's the report at the end of. [speaker004:] Right, it's [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] if you like, that summate sheet [Don:] Correct. [speaker004:] alright? So can we just ignore that for the moment and focus on... the first sheet deliberately [speaker005:] It's not difficult [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] Because I think it gives us... er... it's got a lot of common things in, it gives us a baseline to work on [Don:] Mhm. [speaker004:] as opposed to be airy fairy! Cos that was the problem last time wasn't it, we weren't quite sure [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] where we were starting from and I think it would be valuable to do what we started doing... and actually to look at this as the baseline and decide how we might amend it... to keep common factors in... that we can all use, because we need something that has... a common denominator level [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] in. Is that, is that [speaker003:] I did that, I did that with. [speaker004:] Right. [Don:] You [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] one of the things you said, Angela was that there wasn't enough... comment on the original one, wasn't [speaker003:] Aha. [Don:] enough room... so I the size of that because of that [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] more room [speaker003:] But I've, what I'm saying Rod is I've done the same thing [speaker002:] Sorry Angela! [speaker003:] because [speaker002:] Yeah, I'm trying to put the excuse [speaker003:] I haven't been I haven't presented it as well Don has. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] But I've done a generalised thing that could be adapted. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] I think this is very good one! [speaker005:] Ah oh... yeah, I like that, I like it, yep! Erm, just picking little bits, I mean... er,we when we say actually what it is... erm, annual report do we say the annual report to parents, or is it annual report just... I know that that's minor... but... at the actual top what do we actually call the thing that we're presenting? [speaker006:] I think, I, I would actually prefer to leave the word annual out and just put... I dunno what you wanna call it, I'd I'm always edgy about the word report [speaker004:] Well Ralph Gardener [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Community High School, yeah. [speaker006:] It will be Ralph Gardener Community High [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker006:] School that's the first thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Do we need to put on what it is? I mean, is it not almost explanatory? [speaker002:] Yes, we... we do need to put it on. [speaker005:] We do need to put it on. [speaker002:] I'm looking for Bill, is he around anywhere? [speaker005:] Bill? [speaker003:] P E. [Don:] P E. [speaker002:] And they're in room one which is down past Okay! wherever something! [speaker005:] In the past we've used different... terms haven't we? [speaker006:] We we we went to statement to parents! [speaker005:] Refuse and this,tha you know! [speaker006:] To deliberately move away from the idea of the old reporting format that's why we've used the word statement to parents. [Don:] I mean that box on the left hand side there could be Ralph Gardener Community High School... and where it says science or maths or whatever [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] above that could be... report for... and then... science... you know? [speaker004:] What's wrong with just a title, science or [Don:] Oh okay then! [speaker004:] It seems quite clear I thought [Don:] I wo I understand that you preferred the word report to be there? [speaker004:] Well ah, no! [speaker005:] Didn't say the word report [Don:] Sorry! [speaker004:] No, he didn't say that, no. [speaker006:] I think that an indication of what the sheet is [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker006:] for the benefit of [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] whoever might pick the sheet up. [speaker004:] So, Ralph Gardener Community High School, hyphen... and, I would say annual out because [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] it might well be [speaker005:] May not be annual! [speaker004:] Right [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] and we either go with the word report or we look for an alternative word... or words. [speaker006:] What is... what is the, what is the, is assessment not the word to use these days? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] No, it's not a report is it? [speaker005:] cos if we're reporting, we're not assessing. [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker004:] It is a report to parents and I mean, under legislation we have to... report [speaker002:] report [speaker004:] to parents. [speaker005:] Well I mean I I was [speaker004:] That's [speaker005:] just looking at that one where we said... well report to parents [speaker006:] Annual report to parents, yeah. [speaker005:] you know, and is that... is that satisfactory? [speaker002:] Well that [speaker005:] Or do we want to call it something different? [speaker004:] In that case should call it... subject report? [Don:] Subject report instead of annual... got enough space in there... only make it small. [speaker002:] Do we need subject report in if you're going, I'm sorry if we're spli, if you're gonna have a box with you're subject name in? Cos it's obvious Mhm. that it's a subject report, if you've got report [Don:] Yes. [speaker002:] right, says science or art and design or whatever [speaker003:] Well just put report! [speaker005:] Report will do. [speaker003:] And leave the title next to it. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] okay. [Don:] But will the [speaker006:] Altho, although if one is... eventually going to talk about the report... one could... to make it clear to the parents that... what one is a... subject report and the other is a... summate report. [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Er, therefore... make a... distinction between the two... parts of the report, [Don:] You mean rather then the, the report? [speaker002:] No, I think [Don:] Mm mm. [speaker006:] Ah! [speaker002:] We a we no we agreed, we agreed a on a fi [speaker005:] We need to shift to... to the procedure that we would probably have... and a... tell me if I'm wrong... I thought there was a sort of... general agreement without it being... sort of firmly agreed... that we were going to go for a format of... subject specific reports... still coming to form tutor who would complete some sort of general report, is that [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker005:] not what we had in mind? And that general report would be in a sense a summate report or a form tutor report or a... er, pupil management report, whatever title [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] it is we're gonna [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] use. [Don:] Mm. [speaker005:] So is is that the context of the word report Andrew, er, that you're using. [speaker006:] Well... my feeling was that we had agreed... that the parents would sent the subject reports [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] where they never have been sent before [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker006:] as well as the summate report. [speaker005:] Oh yes! Yes, yes they would go as well I'm not [speaker006:] Yeah [speaker005:] saying [speaker006:] alright, yes [speaker005:] that would go as well! [speaker006:] Well I think that's... certainly [speaker005:] And on that basis... I'm not sure we need subject report in just a report and subject in the box. [speaker006:] Perfect, perfectly logical that! [speaker005:] Yeah? [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] But as a necessary [speaker005:] But we would still have a form tutor input i.e. a summation [Don:] Yeah, but [speaker005:] some chance for the youngster in a [Don:] but yo [speaker005:] with records of achievement i.e. [Don:] But do you agree that... that everybody in each subject should fill in that? [speaker002:] Something like that. [speaker005:] Oh well wait till you get round to that, we sti [speaker003:] Really? [Don:] Yes, oh yes, I think that should [speaker005:] I mean, it's a, it's the [Don:] be summarised in the form of some sort of [speaker002:] Giving what we're being asked to do we do need to have something that focus on general skills and abilities, we've gotta decide what they are. [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] But, yes, I agree we need something like that. [speaker005:] But the big problem at present is that that form tutors get loads of information sent to them... and then they [Don:] have to [speaker005:] summarise it, and an awful lot of what has been done by the subjects [speaker006:] It's wasted, [speaker005:] It's just wasted the form teacher! [Don:] Right, if this is going on [speaker005:] just keep it! [Don:] we said the last time, did we not? That if this is going home then that sort of thing doesn't need to come from a form tutor, other than a sa er... a sort of generalised one as well, if you like. [speaker005:] Aye, it's the form tutor one needn't [Don:] Mm. [speaker005:] needn't be, I mean once they've got all of this... the form tutor one needn't be anything. [speaker004:] The form tutor can well can build in a lot of good practises that have been built in [speaker002:] The the form I se [speaker004:] over the years. [Don:] I'm I'm [speaker002:] I see the form tutor one... as being... now we've got hold of record of achievement as being part of the developmental process of a record of achievement, now our youngsters know what a personal statement is, form tutors are happier with a joint statement... it's taken us... four years [speaker004:] Three or four [speaker002:] three four years to get there... but it strikes me that we can actually start moving towards that process, not a full sheet of a personal [speaker005:] No. [speaker002:] statement, but we can start moving towards a personal statement [Don:] You can [speaker002:] right the way across the school so we've actually got a standardised... format and everybo everybody's involved in it all the way. [speaker006:] And there's still no reason why in that sa... er, joint statement that our subject reports [speaker002:] No. [speaker006:] to them... needn't be a, er a starting point, a key... for discussion between [speaker002:] Absolutely! [speaker006:] the child and the tutor. [Don:] I mean you could have, if you have basically what we're saying is that you have a whole load of of subject reports and on the top of it you've got form tutor report [speaker006:] Yes. [Don:] which is basically... er... a summary of... [speaker003:] A positive comment, an overall positive comment... based on all [Don:] Su sa [speaker003:] the other reports. [Don:] summarising wha, the same sort of thing as they're gonna get in the fifth year of the [speaker006:] That's right! [Don:] to build up maybe... you know, individual statement, joint statement... perhaps on on the sheet [speaker004:] But it allows [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] in keeping with, it allows that opportunity as you know [Don:] [cough] [speaker004:] as a form tutor, somebody's been on... a a a residential weekend [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] to include... the other things that we've done, so all I'm trying to say is, it's in keeping with the philosophy of records of achievement. [speaker006:] That's right,, yes! [speaker005:] Their, their, their out of school activities [speaker004:] Yeah! [speaker005:] anything like that. [speaker006:] But but, you should also be be sure that the form tutor... pro can clarify things for parents because... although, no no matter how hard you try to make this... erm, a clear and easily understandable document... it's only clear and un easily understandable to us. [speaker005:] Yes, but all form tutors are gonna have to become aware of each subject's [Don:] Cos they're gonna be [speaker005:] you know they're gonna be [speaker002:] they are [speaker005:] they're gonna be summarising them... a... all the [speaker006:] They are. [speaker005:] time [speaker006:] That's right. [speaker005:] and hopefully it's not gonna change! [speaker006:] No, and it'll make it a lot easier for... the form tha these are the same format [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] So that they can do that quickly and easily [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and make it easier for the parent to understand... whether this is good or bad. [speaker005:] Ah yes, it's just gotta the [speaker006:] Well I don't think, they don't [speaker005:] that choose [speaker006:] but sometimes [speaker005:] that change. [speaker006:] parents have come to me and said... so and so's only got a C, it's appalling! [speaker004:] I think, I think that's very well laid out, I think that's quite... self explanatory to [speaker006:] Er, for us it is, yes but [speaker004:] I think I think it's [speaker002:] Oh yeah! [speaker004:] reasonably clear for parents actually. [Don:] I I think... one of the other points [speaker004:] Makes sense. [speaker006:] Quite a lot of parents. Quite a lot of parents. [speaker004:] Yeah, okay. [Don:] One of the other points about it is that it will erm... er, in in the minds of the parents the they will see this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten... er being used, poor, satisfactory, excellent and it will get them into the idea of what these levels [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] are. [speaker003:] Yes. [Don:] And they will therefore be able... providing it's... it's used in that format [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [Don:] it will be able to interpret for them what these numbers mean in the middle bit. [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Don, do you envisage the er... the general skills and abilities being done by pupils or... pupils and staff together or [Don:] I thought, I I well, I don't envisage anything but I mean... I would of thought that kids could fill it in in pencil and then we do the same as we did before a and and that the staff in some way put in their own. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Ca can we just look at a... I don't know which way to to be specific or to look at the general first, can I just a make some general comments about... the, I mean I like that... we talked about that before, I like the ten levels [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] I think we need to bla, talk about what the general skills and abilities are. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I wonder about the pupil comment being divorced from the staff comment... I wondered whether they... one should follow the other. [speaker003:] I would rather not have that on the subject reports but if it's going to be on i for the sake of coherence the comments should be together. [speaker002:] Mm... you see I I it's it's trying to find the balance isn't it? I I'm... er ah... I like to think that the youngsters have actually got some input into the report, I think it's important [speaker003:] Yes, I'm not saying deny that [speaker002:] but at the same time... I would want to afford er, you as heads of departments... er er everybody's heads of department a little bit of leeway what i what if, what... wa wa we have to be careful about this that we set a standard... but allow a little leeway... because all departments are slightly different and want to approach things [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] slightly differently and... what I'm trying to say is I don't want the leeway to weaken the strength of the reporting do you know what I mean? [Don:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And if you don't feel that you can fit in a pupil comment, you have to be very careful here because some people will take it as a cop-out and not do it... and a that worries me and it has happened... and I think it is important that the youngsters are actually given some guidance and the opportunity to do it. You're Yes. saying you're not in a position to do that in the moment or you wouldn't want [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] to do that? [speaker003:] No, I'm not saying that, I've [speaker002:] Have I got the wrong end of the stick? [speaker003:] I'm not saying it like that, what I'm saying is I would pref, yes, I would like them to be involved in it... a as far as my subject reports are concerned I would like our reports that we do, we do involve the kids, I pass them out, we discuss them and I'll re-draft... but I would not, rather not have their written sample on that piece. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] I think they get fed up and I don't think that a that language-wise they have the vocabulary in the school to be able to pluck out meaningful comments and... you know, and go right across the curriculum there... I think dif... let me finish! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Er, it's difficult for them. Erm, I think you should involve them but I think it'll be preferable if it was one to one with the form tutor... i that time and the form tutor has taking an over-view [speaker006:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and they were taking over-view as well right? Now that's what I'd prefer, but in every, you know the majority go against me and they want it in... a as I say I I would, I think that it'd be better placed at the top. [speaker002:] Guidance? [speaker004:] I prefer the pu pupil comment to be honest. [speaker002:] You would like the pupils to to make their own written comment in there? [speaker004:] I'd also like the national curriculum levels to come straight underneath course one. Yes. [Don:] You see I felt [speaker002:] Can we no,ca [speaker003:] Yes, comments together. [speaker002:] can we just come back to the pupil comment business, one thing at a time for a moment and can we try and get... how people feel [Don:] the reason [speaker002:] about whether they want a pupil comment in. [Don:] The reason I'd put pu pupil comment where it is, is because... so far as I was concerned the top half of that I was gonna, was gonna be filled in by staff... it is a report. [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] That's the top part... the bottom part is open to negotiation... and that's why I've put them altogether at the bottom. [speaker003:] Well [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Don... the staff comment one could come under the national curriculum levels... if you [Don:] Yeah, you mean out [speaker004:] Yes. [Don:] outline... then that [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] bit then staff comment? [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] Can I come back to my original question, which was... yo [speaker003:] Pupil comments. [speaker002:] you you want pupil comment [speaker003:] Yes or no? [speaker002:] Paul? Andrew, your thoughts? [speaker006:] Yes, if we didn't have pupil comment we would miss some absolute pearls like Mr is a lying git! And, you know... only I couldn't live without that! [Don:] What was that word? [speaker006:] Git! [speaker003:] You've convinced me Andrew! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Was that [speaker002:] Is that [speaker004:] Bet he then! [speaker002:] is that, but you [speaker003:] Has it? [speaker002:] but you do have to remember as I say [speaker004:] I've got one I'll give you my book later on Angela! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you do have to remember at the same time that these documents would be going home and [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] there is... a a a level of er oh [speaker004:] Propriety? [speaker002:] yes... that when you [speaker003:] An appropriateness! [speaker002:] yes, that [speaker003:] and [speaker002:] we need to follow. [speaker003:] Oh. [speaker004:] I would hope that if, if a parent saw er that er somebody had had that sort of attitude towards the staff that [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] the parent would have the opportunity of making an appropriate [Don:] Mm. It's not only that but if if if [speaker003:] No, it's not only that [Don:] if they if they did this i would it not give them practise at... at being able to do the [speaker004:] Mm. [Don:] you know, the the report at the end of of, of five years? You know [speaker002:] Angela's expressed a view. [speaker003:] I'm I'm saying the but not just stage [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] that's what all [speaker002:] Chaps! Oh, er erm... Alan, sorry? [speaker005:] Erm I'm... half and half I I I go along with Angela in the main that... the the kids in, generally speaking the kids that I've talked to... don't want to put their own input... a lot of them don't want to because, as Angela says, they cannot find the appropriate words... and some of the others just write some... some stuff that... I would look at and say I'm, you know I'm not very happy having that written on this. [Don:] I've had [speaker005:] But it's [Don:] science this year. [speaker004:] But with all due respect is some of that... not to do with the guidance their receiving from us as teachers? [speaker002:] Certainly, I I've told you [speaker003:] Absolutely! [speaker006:] I have spent [speaker003:] But [speaker002:] a great deal of... effort and time... in enabling the children to write something meaningful [speaker006:] I... I've let it in [speaker005:] Sure [speaker006:] you know im im improve their English language. [speaker005:] Sure. [speaker002:] Okay, Paul? [speaker004:] Surely we've working from er statement banks for pupils for quite a long time... and why [speaker002:] Can we [speaker004:] can't we, why can't we be picking out... guiding, guidance as far everything [speaker002:] Alright, I [speaker004:] should be [speaker002:] I don't have to look, if I can just [speaker003:] It's all mechanistic to say that! [speaker002:] I don't have to look [speaker004:] It's all what? [speaker003:] Mechanistic you know [speaker004:] mechanistic [speaker003:] Oh yes I feel... oh stop! [speaker002:] I don't have to look too far back in there when we started this whole process, four or five years of throwing it all up in the air... to say that... I felt every pupil could comment in some way, something that they had enjoyed, something they felt they'd been successful at, something they felt they found difficult, something that had pleased them, surely every child... could comment on wo, if it's just one of those things [Don:] Wha [speaker002:] but i it has then [Don:] And that's on every subject, that's the what Angela's, the point [speaker003:] No. [Don:] Angela's making [speaker002:] Yes [Don:] I think [speaker003:] it it be it becomes repetitive [speaker005:] They... they get a [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] bit sick of this [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker005:] you know! Yo your [speaker003:] It becomes stale, they say I like this... it was good! [Don:] Yes, I I I I [speaker003:] And things like that. [speaker002:] But is that not part of our job to get them to think and? [speaker003:] Yes, absolutely, I agree with you! Obviously I agree with you that we should be putting the kids in challenging situations where that they've gotta rise to the occasion and use language in an effective way, but I don't know whether this is the best way, these er er er, you know, a series of how much space of you got? Whereas, if they were involved in the end where they sat with the form teacher [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] read the lot, I mean, look what they doing language-wise, they're reading, they're evaluating, they're projecting... I mean,the that, they're doing quite complicated things there, and also hopefully there will be enough space where they... have the opportunity to put something that is meaningful... and they're involved in the dialogue with the form [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] teacher. [speaker002:] Paul? [speaker004:] I I, for pupil comment you could ea, quite easily have a joint statement there, or a joint comment... whereby the [Don:] Or just statement. [speaker004:] there's no [Don:] Or just [speaker004:] real reason why [Don:] comments. [speaker004:] once a year that er... a subject teacher and a pupil cannot sit down an and come up with a [Don:] Could [speaker004:] I take sometime. [Don:] Could we get round with that? Could we get round that by, instead of saying staff comment and pupil comment... make the space [speaker003:] Join them. [Don:] slightly larger and just say [speaker005:] Just say [Don:] statement? [speaker005:] Just say comment actually. [Don:] Comment. Comments. [speaker002:] Mm. [Don:] Comments. [speaker005:] That's what [speaker002:] But I have to put back to you that the onus then falls on you and head's of departments to ensure that that space is used properly. [speaker003:] Oh it will be. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] Yes, that will. [speaker002:] And I have to say my experience it leaves me to doubt, I know I'm a cynic sometimes, that the space will... not be used effectively... and [speaker003:] Well [speaker002:] because people get under pressure and it's oh Christ I ain't got time so I won't bother! I'm sorry [Don:] Well that's [speaker002:] if that's very cynical and I know it's unfair in some context. [Don:] It is [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] unfair! [speaker004:] Erm, I think that is unfair [speaker002:] We [speaker004:] Rod, yes I agree with Don, I think... if you look at er what the work has gone in er... in the fifth year for the last two or three years and the way that subject teachers are now approaching ranks of achievement... I don't see yes it's. [speaker002:] It's not a process wi, that's not a valid comparison in the sense that in [speaker004:] No? [speaker002:] fifth, in fifth year and year eleven it's a different ball game altogether. [speaker004:] But why shouldn't staff... put the same process into operation lower down the school? [speaker002:] I think beca I think because some don't actually transfer the skill, if I might, say that. [Don:] Yes but I mean, in some cases I've gotta say in some cases it is inappropriate to make a lot of comments with [speaker002:] Mhm. [Don:] a lot of pupils... you are giving a lot of information [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] here and here on the pupil [speaker002:] Mm. [Don:] in some cases it may be appropriate... but if you're forcing people to make comments just... because there's a space to do it [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] then it loses a lot of it's... values, yes. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] But can't we think about re-phrasing that... so we get this idea of this joint statement, some sort of dialogue on [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker003:] on there. [speaker002:] Co, more comments then? [Don:] Right. [speaker002:] I think that's a point to pick up on actually. [speaker005:] Mm, I [speaker002:] Andrew? On this? [speaker006:] I'm never never one for for making work... but... on an a on... although this isn't going to be called an annual report... for most children it will be an annual event... and... I do feel... quite strongly that... for the child to be able to... have the opportunity [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] of doing this... and the opportunity is one where they are told to do... and they will not miss the opportunity. [Don:] Well they're gonna [speaker006:] Is [Don:] be told to do that when they're doing this bit aren't they? [speaker006:] Mm. [Don:] When they're going to look [speaker006:] Mm. [Don:] at this bit and tick these boxes [speaker006:] Yes, but ticky boxes, and expressing themselves in other [Don:] Yeah but [speaker006:] ways... the ways perhaps that... are not [speaker002:] Sticky! [speaker006:] erm... you know the, what they wish to express is not available on the [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] ticky boxes... erm [speaker002:] That sho sho should be there. [speaker006:] I know that... our children by enlarge... er... their vocabulary doesn't extend to... erm... what er, polysyllabic words which which might really sum up... for an adult what they've been going through, how they've enjoyed it... but... what is the terrible form we... had last year in seventh year, was it seven G? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Erm, George and I had that class shared between us, he took them for an hour a week and I did... and i if there is a class that any of us had ever taken that would be unlikely to be able to write something meaningful of this kind [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] that would be the class and yet they all did... cos George and I insisted! But we helped them by suggesting [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] words... and er, they didn't lose it... they, they they they went along with it... and they, they actually, some came [Don:] Yeah. [speaker006:] up with some quite good descriptive language with some aesthetic terminology... which we guided them with, but we didn't put the words in their mouths [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] each one... came out as a very personalised and individualistic comment which reflected that child. [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] Some of them very negative, and how much they hated doing what they'd been made to do... er, and others... very surprisingly... made it known that they had thoroughly enjoyed it. Erm, but the, they were totally honest they didn't feel [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] made to do anything else. [speaker002:] But [speaker006:] I would not have known that children who said they enjoyed it, were enjoying it [speaker002:] [cough] [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] cos they behaved so badly! [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] And I hadn't enjoyed it []! [speaker003:] Maybe that's why they enjoyed it Andrew? [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Perhaps it was, in fact, one or two of them said, you know... we like ripping the [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] piss out of Mr! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] I think you've also gotta look at it from the kid's point of view and perhaps I'm wrong here but, you know when you think, I mean,the these are going to be done very, you know er i i we got a sort of time limit, and kids are going to be told during perhaps a two week period [Don:] Mm. [speaker005:] right, science, right come on then let's get down to this! Then they'll now go into a maths lesson... let's go into this, they're gonna perhaps do that eight times, then they're gonna get a breather, then a few days time after that the form teacher's saying right, let's do it again and summarise it, I think it's too much! [speaker002:] Right, well I I... part of me says,the the there are two aspects, the other side of the coin a little bit, if we talk about recording achievement and not recording failure, we here have an opportunity to point out to youngsters, encourage youngsters in that they are all capable of achieving in some way and to get them to write down... that they have achieved, that's the other side of the coin.... I know it happens in individual subjects and there's the element of repetition but, you are at the same time making them reflect over a certain period and say I have not entirely wasted my time, there maybe some youngsters for whom it will be extremely difficult, and I except that but my thinking is... that is you look hard enough you can find something that everybody has done at whatever level... that they can take some pride in. [speaker005:] Aha, and they can do that in the summary! [speaker003:] I agree with you but they can achieve that in a different form, if that's your purpose it doesn't need to be achieved like this. [Don:] Yes. [speaker005:] There is no reason why, why the teacher and the pupil shouldn't be discussing this bit of it! [speaker003:] You're going to give them more of a ri, a more of a resource bank, if you like, right to pu pluck these, er these comments from [speaker002:] How will we class [speaker003:] if they take an [speaker002:] if [speaker003:] over view. [speaker002:] Right, if we don't do it that way how will we pass that information, which a a as I understand it you want passed to the form tutor? [speaker003:] Well it's go, it's all going to be there in the reports and surely the kids are going to able to form everything. [speaker002:] No it won't be on if if we use this as the document [speaker004:] reports. [speaker002:] for science [speaker003:] No I don't... mm, yeah. [speaker002:] we're immediately saying now, well we need another sheet of paper because the information [speaker003:] No! [speaker002:] that we're talking about [speaker003:] No... do that, right? That's the only thing that's gonna be off, okay? And then we as the form teacher sits... why can't the kids look at the reports as well? [speaker002:] But will the form teacher be able to do as you would do in English and say, but look when you did... that written piece on so and so it was goo, the form teacher will not have that detailed knowledge that you will have [speaker003:] We'll give the kids some prompts... you know, what have you enjoyed? What have... bla bla bla [speaker004:] Angela I would have thought [speaker003:] er and involve that in part of the programme, you know, where they're, where they're involved in the whole report and assessment. [speaker006:] For for si for the six subjects? [speaker004:] Angela [speaker006:] Form teacher wouldn't have time to do that! [speaker003:] No, no you do I'm not making myself clear! [speaker006:] That's why it should be done... in the [speaker003:] No. No, what I'm suggesting is [speaker006:] lesson. [speaker003:] that the kids erm... as an alternative, the kids could get some help on how to, look at all the reports and extract a couple of positive statements that's what the emphasis should be, not that he's a git! Right? No nothing on that, that sort of line but you [speaker004:] I think you're taking one example there actually Angela! [speaker003:] I think you're interrupting [speaker004:] A [speaker003:] me! A, take a couple [speaker004:] Yes, I am. [speaker003:] positive statements right and they need a little bit of help on how to do that and then make some sort of generalised positive comment about themselves, that's what I mean. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] So [speaker003:] Or, or if that, if you disagree with that well, put pupil comment there, hyphen or whatever... upon... but lead that on, give them a bit of a leader into it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [Don:] Can I summarise? [speaker002:] Go on then. [Don:] We're getting nowhere fast [speaker002:] Well I ca [Don:] I mean can we [speaker004:] I think we are! [Don:] could I, could I make a suggestion? [speaker002:] No, that's important. [Don:] Could I make a suggestion? Taking into account everything everybody said... the formats as it is, course outline... after course outline goes... your individual bit, right? Subject, but national curriculum levels on this one [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] sta sta staff comment comes out of there... and that bit goes up... then you have general skills and abilities... and then below that you have a wider box... which just says comments... which will include... a staff comment... and may include a pupil comment as well cos because it's signed by both at the bottom. [speaker003:] Can I just check what you were saying there? So, take the staff comment from there and instead of putting staff down put a generalised comment on this? [Don:] Just put instead of having staff comment and pupil comment, you got one box, comment. [speaker004:] Double the size of the box [Don:] Comments. [speaker004:] down there. [Don:] Comments. So that [speaker003:] That would [Don:] that comes out [speaker003:] instead of being there [speaker004:] Can I have a word please? [Don:] Mm mm. It's down there. [speaker002:] Paul? [speaker004:] I'd like, I think as it is at the moment is erm... is superb! And I think, instead of pupil comment it should be some sort of joint say. But I think that's perfectly adequate. And I think kids should be encouraged... to erm... think about themselves rather than just tick boxes... and I think er, er er a group of sentences down here written by the form teacher, by the... subject teacher and the pupil... erm, as it's been done for about, for a few years, a good... habit to get the kids into, erm... especially as a record of achievement should start from year seven. [speaker002:] Mm. Can I just ask then, if you're saying to be it should be a joint statement, but you [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] think that format's alright, is that not a contradiction because... if it's a joint statement and this format's alright you've got staff comment... divorced from pupil comment? [speaker004:] I want the staff comment and I want the, a joint statement at the... at the bottom. [speaker005:] But I want your opinion, I mean the sa, the the staff comment is going to be [speaker004:] Well you do exactly [speaker005:] repetition! [speaker004:] you do exactly the same on the erm... on the record of achievement don't you? You've got a a staff comment and then you have er... a pupil comment which is really [speaker005:] Well [speaker004:] written in as a [speaker002:] No. [speaker004:] joint sort of [speaker002:] No... no... you have a pupil statement... personal [speaker004:] in the [speaker002:] statement. [speaker004:] in the sa in the form, in the form... when the form teacher does it. [speaker002:] You have a personal statement then the joint statement. You don't have a staff comment and a joint statement. [speaker004:] But the staff comment is in the statement [speaker002:] I, in the subject specific. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker006:] So you wo you would like to have it in a format... similar to the... the very final [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker006:] thing that they're aiming at so [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] they get used to... the format? [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] That's sounds very reasonable but I... I er I I ha... not having been at the level, form... tutor [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] but er... you know [speaker002:] Yeah, I think [speaker006:] for some years, I've never done one of those. [speaker002:] I take what Paul's saying, I think [speaker006:] I'm not really with it. [speaker002:] I think there's a scale element... cos we're talking one sheet here and it's a... it's a much bigger exercise. [speaker004:] Okay right. [speaker002:] But I I I agree what you're saying, it's very valid. Guidance then Paul? [speaker003:] Can, yeah, can we... can we vote on whether we're going to improve pupil comment? And then when that's decided let's decide [speaker002:] Well let's [speaker003:] upon the format. [speaker002:] get dead clear about what it is we're go actually gonna vote on [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] because it's... we've gone a bi [speaker003:] On the [speaker002:] a bit round the houses. [speaker003:] Either in principle [speaker002:] Am I right in saying then... i i is the first thing we need to agree on whether we're gonna have a staff comment, and a pupil comment... on there... is tha, is that the first decision? [speaker003:] I think everybody's in agreement about staff aren't they? [speaker002:] There's no question about staff comment on there? [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] Right, fine! Right. [speaker006:] Er, what do you mean there's no question? [speaker002:] Everybody accepts there should be a staff comment on. [speaker006:] Er, okay [speaker002:] and it's sold! [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Fair enough, well, that's the point I was making. [speaker004:] The... the the... in order to get by... pupils writing these er... rather immature things that they write on the [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] bottom of these reports why can't you make it into a... a pu er er... a a joint... teacher pupil comment, it isn't just a, it isn't in the same form it's just the same that the pupil writes that with guidance with teacher guidance, sitting next to the teacher. [Don:] I think we're losing track... of what this actually is Paul, there are, you're trying to do two things at once what you're trying to do, I think... is use it as a learning process for children but... this is an annual report for parents... and I think that part of it a at least surely must be a report... by the sa member of staff, by the department on how the child has done, by the member staff. By all means give the, give the kid a chance to, to put his side of the story if you like, but there must be... er [speaker004:] Well we've got all that there haven't we? [speaker002:] Right. [Don:] Yep. [speaker004:] Yeah? [speaker002:] I know. [speaker006:] The the form that we have currently... the er... sta statements are they called at the moment? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Erm, I know that the way that I do it every time it looks rather like a... is what we use? [speaker005:] Is that the one you want as a form tutor? [speaker006:] Er, it's subject [speaker005:] Oh. Then I haven't got a front have I? That [speaker006:] Er [speaker005:] one? [speaker006:] Yes, it is there. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Er, the comment here... the way that I have been used to doing these... I found... that I I like it and the kids can [Don:] You write yours and they write theirs? [speaker006:] I I invariably do write something [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] So do I. [speaker006:] and the kid invariably writes something down. [Don:] Well that's what I suggested ten minutes ago! [speaker006:] And I like that form. [Don:] Yes. [speaker002:] Whilst you've suggested everybody else has a right to their opinion and doesn't make yours... the solution! [speaker006:] And I think having, as a separate issue, the staff comment as a [Don:] ! [speaker006:] a separate box... er, you know, er is is is not necessarily appropriate. Sometimes, if the child writes in there first... I say, I concur with what so and so has said, Well done or something like that. [speaker002:] Would [speaker006:] Sometimes the child isn't really very good at writing and I will write something encouraging... and the kid says I have liked my art... well, yeah [speaker002:] Can I, can I [speaker006:] that's all they can do [speaker002:] can I then... put to you [speaker006:] in fairness. [speaker002:] I think, what Don's saying is [speaker004:] It's got differentiation though. [speaker002:] that we have a comment area [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Testing, testing, testing []! [speaker002:] that we have a, differentiation he said,differenti [speaker003:] Differentiation. [speaker002:] we have a [speaker004:] Differentiation. [speaker002:] comment area... when we, these go out there would be guidance which would say their staff must make their comment... in that space [Don:] Yeah. [speaker002:] how... the other part of space is used could be left to individual departments on the basis that [speaker006:] Of discretion. [speaker002:] discretion or... it is hoped that pupils would be afforded the opportunity to make their own, if [speaker003:] Involved in the process. [speaker002:] you wish so, they must certainly be involved in the process [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] or it could be an agreed... joint statement and written by the member of staff. [speaker006:] Whichever way you are. [speaker003:] Oh yeah. [speaker002:] So it allows [speaker005:] So what does that mean? [Don:] What you're saying is [speaker002:] basic comment [Don:] yo you're gonna put comment? [speaker002:] We will put [speaker005:] No then [speaker002:] comment [speaker005:] call that statement then. [speaker004:] It's gotta have something before it though. [Don:] It's qui, comments! [speaker002:] Well [speaker004:] Comments by who? [Don:] Well [speaker004:] Comments and statement? [speaker002:] Well, if you put comments... and [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] a me a member of staff writes the comment and signs it it's obvious who has written the comment, i.e. the member of staff has written it, you could then have something underneath if you wish to, that is the pupil's, that will be obviously the pupil's from the different writing, or the style of the writing... er... or you could open it up with we have agreed, if you wish to one... make it a joint [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] statement. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] And we would put that down... as basic guidance to staff when completing reports. [speaker006:] Yes. Yes, yeah. [Don:] In other words it leaves... the... format open to the department concerned? [speaker002:] Let the cat in Alan [speaker003:] But [speaker002:] would you and I'll get the food, I'm a bloody expert cats [speaker003:] and that's, sorry, and they acted immediately there. [speaker002:] ! Terry, thoughts? I mean, we've not sort of included you [speaker007:] No I've... I mean, I know that in the primary schools nowadays they do allow, or do let the ki the children actually write their own reports as well. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] Cos they're actually coming up from this year [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] I mean, they [speaker002:] It's the records of achievement. [speaker007:] so they're doing it from the age of possibly eight or nine some people, certainly down right the way through [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] the bottom of the school. [speaker003:] I've [speaker004:] But I, I I still agree with [speaker007:] It's young to be doing it. [speaker004:] what somebody said that the, sometimes the pupil's comments are kind of as Andrew pointed out earlier that er [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker004:] It's not the sort of things that [speaker003:] but [speaker004:] you wanna see on a... on a [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] on a report, on a [speaker002:] But I mean but with guidance [speaker004:] Yeah, yeah [speaker003:] You see I [speaker002:] That's right! [speaker003:] I agree with what you're saying but when I've done it before and involved the pupil in such a report I put it on a separate sheet, so that [speaker007:] Yes [speaker003:] there's been [speaker007:] Yeah well that's what the primary school's done. [speaker003:] ma, this is prior to all this you see [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker007:] Yes. [speaker003:] and we had all this we've got [speaker002:] Ha I have to go along here some, to some of you with a bossy statement of you know, this inclusive as opposed [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker002:] to exclusive bit [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] and it allows... the opportuni it affords the opportunity to be inclusive and I think that's important. [speaker003:] Well a po what about the reverse? [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker003:] Put it on the reverse of the sheet. [speaker002:] We then get into all sorts of photocopying production problems, I mean this is why I was asking did you want another piece of paper? I know it's a bit penny-pinching [Don:] Mm. [speaker003:] Oh! [speaker002:] but erm, because [Don:] Mm. [speaker003:] that's very [speaker004:] But Rod, I I sti I think it is also is good preparation for year eleven. [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] Oh yes! [speaker004:] that's a they should be thinking about it right from the word go. [speaker002:] Oh absolutely! [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Absolutely! [speaker005:] As long it is joint, I mean there's no way that yo that you could... have something sent home to parents [speaker004:] Right, [speaker005:] with a kid's comment, maths is crap! [speaker004:] You know, yeah [speaker005:] You know you would tear it up wouldn't you? [speaker006:] Ye well I would, yes. [speaker004:] Yes! But so and lo, on the other hand though I'd [speaker006:] But I I... go on sorry Paul [speaker004:] a lot of the the statements these kids make are quite reasonable, well written comments [speaker002:] Yes! [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker004:] so wha what Andy's done, and what other people have done have pitted, picked out a few great examples, but I would say that erm... the majority are quite reasonable comments, if, if perhaps a little bit simple at times, I don't know. [speaker003:] Does seem. [speaker002:] Andrew? [speaker005:] I would, I would tend to say the majority aren't, aren't interested in their, in their own comments. [speaker004:] Erm, well [speaker002:] But [speaker004:] that depe, a lot of, sorry Rod! A lot of that depends on on the, on the staff input [speaker003:] Mhm. [Don:] Mhm. [speaker004:] and how they... motivate [speaker003:] In school [speaker004:] the kids, as Andrew has pointed out that, as as he and George operate. [speaker002:] Last comment from Andrew and then we move on cos we've got a a an agreement in in what we're gonna put in, we haven't got an agreement as to where we're gonna put it but... Andrew comment? [speaker006:] Well I'm prepared to say th th that I that I think that we do do good practice... in that we do sit down with the children and help them, each individual along with the... with our joint statements. Never the less, it is the child speaking we don't... put the words into their mouths... and as such when they speak and when they write it down, it's one of the, possibly one of the few chances of having primary evidence of how the child is at... er, writing... er, on an official document [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] er, progressing through the years... I doubt whether samples of the child's work... are kept officially in any other form or anywhere else [speaker003:] They are. [speaker006:] their handwriting and so on. [speaker003:] They are. [speaker006:] Maybe they are in English but [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] but not an official document as opposed to a subject, I mean, I keep all their pictures, you know that [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] they do. But it's a central a central [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] easily accessible [speaker003:] Yeah, that's fair enough. [speaker006:] by anybody... form... so, here we have each year, six examples of the child's... writing and thought processes and opinions... at least, well I, I said six because I ca don't really know how many subjects a child will be... taking or writing for [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] but it is primary evidence and I think as primary evidence it has an extra value to the child's records, and to the school's records, over and beyond what [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] we have ever had or thought about, practically. [Don:] On the other hand... each time they get a report they're going to have... ten pieces or their work... on each report [speaker006:] Right! [Don:] which I'd never have thought. [speaker006:] Tha, that is what,i isn't that what I just said? [speaker004:] Yeah. [Don:] Mm. [speaker005:] And then they're gonna have an eleventh one when they, when they do it with the form tutor. [Don:] The form tutor and. [speaker003:] Are they going to do with the form teacher [speaker006:] Yes, once a year. [speaker003:] tutor as well? [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] Well once a year but they never [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] have to be a little parcel won't it? [speaker002:] Because we need to go through that [speaker006:] An example... [speaker002:] summation joint statement process. [speaker003:] Can we run through this again then so we [speaker002:] Right. [speaker003:] can decide? [speaker002:] Let's come back to it then, so we've agreed a basic heading, although we need to play with that a bit, name, year... tick indicates end of end of key stage [Don:] Ooh mm! [speaker005:] No, I'm not too sure about that! [speaker002:] We well [Don:] Yeah,tha that that's just [speaker002:] Let's just leave it for the moment, let's just leave it for the moment. Course outline... I think we're all agreed, should be at the top... er, that is important... we've now agreed a heading and comment... we've got a... e enough agreement that says that, it will be just called comment, but guidelines will need to be produced to go to staff... erm [speaker007:] Rod, is that national curriculum levels or... is that staff comment after course outline just there? [speaker002:] Well that's what I want to get from you now if I can. [speaker007:] Oh sorry! Carry on. [speaker002:] We've agreed comment, where would the comment be placed, given that, I think we all agree we want national curriculum area in, we need a general skills and abilities in, where would the comment be situated, at the bottom underneath everything, between the two... or what? [speaker003:] A at the end of the main staff input. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker003:] So that should go... there. [speaker002:] So are you saying [speaker003:] with the suggestion [speaker002:] so as it sits now between national curriculum [speaker003:] No, I'm asking you there but I'm asking you when's the me, end of the main staff input? That's there isn't it because that's [Don:] Mm. [speaker003:] supposed to be a joint activity there? [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] So I would suggest that it would go there. So I would [speaker002:] Between national curriculum levels and general skills and abilities as it sits at the moment? [speaker003:] Yes. [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Course outline... national curriculum levels, staff comment. [speaker006:] Erm... I would differ er, with that opinion because I would say that the comment... as a joint comment... would erm... have to deal with the general skills and abilities [speaker002:] Mm, oh yeah. [speaker006:] which the child er... erm, generally speaking does with, they're getting teacher guidance. So, the comment, joint statement [Don:] Which refers to what? [speaker006:] Will be about everything, not just the top bit but would include comment of the whole [Don:] for that. [speaker003:] Right, I... I'm sorry I didn't understand I thought that you [speaker002:] That's okay. [speaker003:] that was gonna be a se separate [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] staff [speaker002:] No. [speaker003:] if it's a joint comment, yes it should go at the end. [speaker002:] So com wi th... but we've agreed, I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive and boring and the rest of it but... comment, there would be a staff comment, how you use the rest of the space, assume there's a double space... is now left with you given the guidelines are issued. [speaker006:] Well we're gonna say staff comment are we? [speaker003:] Are we? [speaker002:] No, it would just be comments. [speaker006:] yes [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] And the first part of it that would be staff comments. [speaker002:] The first part of it must be a staff comment. [speaker006:] Right. [speaker004:] And [speaker002:] And [speaker006:] it will be double the size [Don:] Well it won't be double the [speaker006:] it'll be [Don:] size it'll be [speaker006:] it'll be staff [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker006:] comment plus, pupil comment [speaker004:] Will it? [speaker006:] so it'll be like [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] that. [speaker002:] we will just put it as a space. [Don:] one big block. [speaker004:] So it'll be left up to the [speaker003:] A space with [speaker004:] individual [Don:] That's right. [speaker002:] It'll be as a space. [speaker004:] Okay. [Don:] So [speaker005:] And is this, are are the I know this again just minor, but if the staff produces a comment... are they going to sign that and also sign the bottom or are we just gonna leave it that the parent will be able say [Don:] I think it's pretty obvious who's written what. [speaker004:] That's what I'm saying! [speaker005:] Well is it? [speaker004:] I say,Ro Ro... Rod, there's gonna be [Don:] Yeah. [speaker004:] sorry, there's gonna be some people who don't even ha have no pupil comment on at all then? They have no pupil input? [Don:] Course they will! [speaker004:] It will have [speaker002:] Well no [speaker004:] pupil input on that bit. [speaker002:] There's gotta be a pupil input, there's no way you can do this [speaker003:] Why, why do you say that? [speaker004:] I'm just er interested, that's all. So the [speaker002:] No,the they'll be a pupil input, it might well be that as a department there's a decision that the pupil would not write Yeah. on the report. [speaker004:] Right, okay. [speaker002:] But it does, you are not precluded from allowing a youngster to write on a report. I'm I'm er er being a little naughty and trying to steer a middle road, if you like [Don:] In other words it could be... correct me if I'm wrong [speaker002:] I, what I don't, if... Andrew obviously feels he's got a strong process that suits him and I don't want to knock that on the head. Alan, I'm sorry if I'm sort of trying to put you at the end and continue and I I don't intend it like that. [speaker005:] I don't mind, I just know [speaker002:] Alan [speaker005:] exactly where I stand on this! [speaker002:] Well Alan sort of has a feeling that he doesn't want that to happen... and I want to fi, I, what I don't like, I I mean I go, personally I go with Andrew's feeling but I don't want, so I don't want to exclude that again [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I want, I want if [speaker003:] I want to do both. [speaker002:] to afford the opportunity [speaker003:] I [speaker002:] at the same time, there are people who sit in the middle ground [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] and I think it's perhaps important to start with that we go with something that's a little bit open-ended that we can review in a years time er, perhaps a little bit later and say well look... we have shown that we can do it valuably er... the proof is in the pudding, it now beholds everybody to do it this way. [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker002:] Is is that, is that reasonable? Yeah? [speaker003:] Agreed. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Right? Grand! [speaker005:] Er, well I I don't want you to feel that that er maths department [speaker002:] No, I'm not saying [speaker005:] don't want [speaker002:] no. [speaker005:] pupils involved... because every piece of work that a kid does is discussed with the pupil... the only thing that I was... a little wary about was a pupil actually putting down... Mr is [speaker002:] Right. [speaker005:] a so and so, er maths is crap and so on and... you know, that's that's going to make... this into something that we wouldn't want [speaker002:] Right, I I I'm I'm [speaker005:] anyone to go, you know to see. [speaker002:] I do apo I wasn't trying to put you as the bad boy... on that end of the continual, I wasn't Alan, I'm [speaker005:] No. [Don:] We could be here for about [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] He's a bad boy []! [Don:] So, so we're saying that there will be a staff comment, then there maybe nothing else... or there maybe a pupil comment... or there maybe a joint statement? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] That's right. So that's every system incorporated. [speaker002:] Staff comment followed by one [speaker004:] It's very vague though innit? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] Well it's not! [speaker003:] So we'll leave it and down three formats... possible. [speaker004:] ... mm. [Don:] And that's going at the bottom we're saying there right? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Don:] Right at the bottom? [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] So that bit that goes there and that bit goes rou, put that back in again that's right [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] bottom, it's gonna be called comment? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Are you gonna issue guidelines or just leave it? [speaker002:] Yep. No, there will be guidelines... and you're in the know anyway so you'd be telling at your curriculum area meetings, you'd be saying [speaker003:] Cascade [speaker002:] as opposed to [speaker003:] Cascade [speaker002:] Ca, oh! [speaker004:] But you're not going to [speaker002:] Ca cascading! [speaker003:] Cascade! Cascade! [speaker004:] But you're not going [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] You're no, not the sweat pouring off my brow! [speaker004:] No, but you're not going to... you're just gonna leave it open? [speaker002:] Yeah, for the reasons that I've said to [speaker004:] You're going to [speaker002:] we can evaluate it later on a [speaker004:] Okay. [speaker002:] without... you know, having to [speaker005:] Well it's not that open because we're saying there must be some... staff... something written by staff [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] or are we not? [speaker003:] Oh yes we are aren't we? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker002:] Staff have to write their comments [speaker003:] Ah [speaker005:] Something [speaker002:] there is then an option after that [speaker003:] and involve the child. [speaker005:] as to whether it's a joint [speaker003:] and involve them... they must be involved mustn't they? [speaker002:] I... I'm sorry I just take that as automatic, I don't even think about it any more. [speaker003:] I think you should write that down okay, that means pupils [speaker002:] Well [speaker003:] must be involved in in some form [speaker002:] I I do and I don't that's your job is, can I be naughty, it's your job as cacs to insist that that's happening. [speaker004:] So you would advise, Rod that, you would [speaker002:] I I, no it's go er er... youngsters are involved in it, I mean that's just my assumption, it's our rationale, well it [speaker004:] at the moment. [speaker002:] I don't know where the rationale is but it's written [speaker004:] I'm [speaker002:] that's it's everybody's responsibility. [speaker003:] Point the finger Paul, come on! [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker004:] I'm not into that Angela, I couldn't do that! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] I can't honestly [speaker003:] Why? [speaker006:] They they are meant to do it and don't do it, they should be told to do it. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] By? [speaker006:] Exactly! [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] Yes, but there is still the the the thought that... [LAUGHTER] a me, I'm sorry []! A a a member of staff may feel that they want to say something about a kid, and it does not necessarily have to agree with what the kid [speaker004:] Here here! [speaker006:] That's right. [speaker005:] You know, I mean, I might be saying Jimmy has wasted his time this year [speaker003:] Oh yeah! [speaker005:] then he will have... under me have to say, Jimmy does not agree with this [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker005:] he feels, and so on, but there has got to be something that is obvious staff comment. [speaker003:] Er [speaker006:] Yes, absolutely! [speaker003:] Well yes I, I put down comments like that [speaker006:] and that is, that would be exactly the right way to do it! [speaker003:] that the kids don't agree with [speaker002:] You say Jimmy [speaker006:] I think it's this [speaker003:] the I sa I put my reasons forward [speaker006:] because Jimmy could then sign that [speaker003:] and they're, they're they're still involved aren't they? [speaker006:] Aye? [speaker003:] Disagreement's involvement [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] isn't it? [speaker004:] Yeah, I'm [speaker002:] I mean the number of times, Alan, I've read quite a few [speaker003:] Got your facts right! [speaker002:] I've come across... we agree... er, or Jimmy feels... now once somebody writes Jimmy feels it's, it's almost intrinsic that, is that the word I want? That, there is da, yeah it's a word, there is disagreement. [speaker005:] I might be to you but it's this is going to a parent! [speaker004:] Yes. [Don:] I I I'd agree with Alan, I'd [speaker004:] Yeah, that's right. [Don:] I don't see that that pu that the the staff comment, which is gonna be the first thing... need have anything to do with the child at all there is ample place [speaker002:] Oh [Don:] if you think [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] within [speaker004:] Shoot that man! [speaker003:] Jesus Christ! [speaker002:] Well in the sense that... they've been involved in it. [Don:] No [speaker005:] No but the [Don:] I don't they need to be involved in it whatsoever! [speaker005:] They've read what you've said... and then say well I don't agree with that and you can write down that. [Don:] Absolutely! A staff comment is [speaker003:] But surely that is involvement, I'm not understanding what you're putting forward! [speaker002:] No I think [Don:] No. [speaker002:] it's the way the words have been used that we're interpreting wrong. [Don:] If I've got to write a comment for a start [speaker005:] What sort of weasel word then? [Don:] then I want to write a comment, I will not necessarily involve the child with [speaker002:] No. [Don:] what I'm writing... he will [speaker002:] Er [Don:] then see that, or he will have [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] already seen it because he will be involved in that bit. [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker006:] Mm. [Don:] Well [speaker003:] But if she does see it [Don:] Well if she does see it, yes. [speaker002:] Yes, yes, she! [speaker003:] subtle ah? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker003:] If she does see it and disagrees with it [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] that's involvement isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] Yes. [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] We're agreed then. [speaker002:] Okay [Don:] Might not agree with this [speaker002:] I I I think we've... I think we've covered that. [Don:] Right. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I think... we've flushed that one haven't we? [speaker002:] Well I think so [speaker003:] Well there you are! [speaker002:] I mean... I don't know how you [speaker004:] It's hard work this isn't it? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I need some tea []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Anyone need a cup of tea [speaker002:] I I think [speaker003:] on the []! [speaker005:] It's only half past two! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] We've only been here three quarters of an hour []! [Don:] [LAUGHTER] Well we've got ten pages to do, we're only half way through the first page man []! [speaker002:] No, we haven't, no we haven't we we're okay... because [speaker004:] that have been there for years haven't they? [speaker002:] But it does need cleari, unless we get some sort of consensus, and it behove you to say look this is it's my belief but there are beliefs, I mean it does behove you to present [speaker003:] Yes! [speaker002:] what other departments feel to your... to your people, because wha, you do have to be careful about the... indoctrination, this is what I believe so it's right, we've gotta... we do have to strike a balance. I mean I've got my own thoughts, I have to be careful here that... you know... I've got to try and pull together what you think because at the end of the day it's it's very important that it reflects the way we work in school, not the way I perceive I we work in in school because you're the people at the chalk first. [Don:] I think a, that there's another point that we should all remember... and that is that it shouldn't just be our opinion either, we are... sort of told from high... certain things [speaker003:] By who? [Don:] that we have to do in a certain way, in a certain format and certain things have got to be included and we've got to take that in hand as well. [speaker002:] But we've done that in the brief that we've we've worked on. [Don:] Yeah, Oh no, I know, I know, I know! [speaker002:] We've already got past [Don:] Yeah. [speaker002:] that stage. [Don:] Yeah, alright! Fair enough! [speaker002:] I think haven't we? [speaker005:] But after what she said [speaker002:] Sorry, I'm being defensive, sorry! [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] Right... so we got staff comment, it will either be a pupil er, statement written by the member of staff... or written by the pupil themselves or a joint statement, they were the three [Don:] Or... no on both. [speaker004:] On all three. [Don:] I it will be staff [speaker002:] Did we alter it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] it could be staff alone, it could be staff and pupil, it could be staff and joint. [speaker006:] Okay [speaker002:] the only thing it can't be just [speaker003:] But they're going to be [speaker002:] no comment. [LAUGHTER] [Don:] See. [speaker002:] Right, we will make, move progress. Thank you for that, er it's not, it's not easy ground and I do appreciate with which it's happening... and the lack of sarcasm that is occurring. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Ha! Ha! Ha! [speaker006:] See this, this bit here... this, the whole... presentation... this this part of it here [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] which has got to be this [Don:] Is that the next bit? [speaker006:] the national curriculum [Don:] which we [speaker006:] cor! [speaker003:] We're going onto to know. [Don:] I assume [LAUGHTER] that's where we're going onto now []. [speaker006:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay? [speaker003:] Er [speaker002:] We've then got two areas to look at... national curricular levels and general skills and abilities. Can I assume that we sort of are happy with the format that there should be a national curriculum level and there should be a general skills and abilities? I can make that assumption? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker005:] We canno, we cannot disagree about this next little bit can we? [speaker002:] Right, the national curriculum levels... I am nearly o... of the opinion to be almost glib and say... there will be a space that is about a third of a sheet of A four, it's down to every department to do their own... I nearly said, I don't care, I often do care [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but that's down to the professional expertise of dis departments. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Is it or isn't it? [speaker003:] No, it's all [speaker005:] No, no, no, they're all exactly the same! I mean, there are four attainment targets, there are three attainment targets [Don:] That's right. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker005:] they are these and tha [Don:] You're obliged [speaker005:] it's just the number of boxes that you're gonna change! [speaker002:] Is everybody happy with that layout for that? [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker005:] Yeah! [speaker003:] Ecstatic! [speaker006:] Mm mm mm. [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] Nearly. [speaker002:] Go on Andrew. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] God []! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] We nearly go agreements! [speaker002:] No, it's important! What time does this [speaker004:] Erm [speaker002:] session end by the way? [speaker004:] Half three. [speaker003:] I dunno,i... is there no tea there? [speaker005:] Half three. [Don:] It's called [speaker002:] We'll we'll have a [speaker003:] Cup of tea! [speaker002:] Hang on Angela! [Don:] Half past three today. [speaker006:] There's an awful lot of information that I've... put in there which I've photocopied and much reduced from the official documents [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] which gives a great deal more information about the attainment targets than the... er, two or three words [Don:] But ha they have got headings though haven't they? [speaker006:] Yeah they have. I could have put the headings on as you have [Don:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and [Don:] to take the whole bloody lot out! Ha! [speaker006:] Right [Don:] Oh! pages. [speaker006:] you you, absolutely, we'd go on forever and ever and ever... and er, therefore, I I, I withdraw all of that stuff... but, in a way I feel that it would be helpful for parents, probably who haven't seen this information... and might like maybe a sample [Don:] You mean you would like to present it in a different way? [speaker006:] some somewhere, yeah, maybe not on here [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] not on each subject... but, maybe on the inside cover... of... er, a presented... re, er set of sheets... but wha wha, you know, however it's gonna be sent... or on the back of the summate sheet or something. You know, for your information the attainment targets have... quite lengthy descriptions... here are one or two examples, here's a maths one, here's an English one, here's a [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] a... science one, for instance because, I don't suppose many of the parents... will have... seen o all the thickness of the document will [speaker002:] No. [speaker006:] they? [speaker002:] they they've only had the taster because I sent home the erm... a map of... of D O S, D E S whatever I'm supposed to call it now. [Don:] D S E. D S E. [speaker003:] D S E. [speaker002:] D S E. I sent home the the that document in with the national curriculum's er report. Which [speaker006:] S [speaker002:] I've now lost! [speaker006:] So in other words, some suggestion that... these headings [speaker003:] Are indicated more. [speaker006:] have a lot more, yes [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] indicator... of of quite a rich scene... and, that the [speaker003:] That's a nice image. [speaker006:] Yeah, thank you. Anyway, [speaker005:] But you're in great danger there because you'll you will beco, it will come like this [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker005:] and a parent will say, level four maths? No, multiplication tables... find and average... and know how to work out an area, that's a doddle! You know, I mean, there's an example of what they're saying. [speaker004:] I think [speaker005:] Level four, this is what you do in maths [Don:] But that's only one bit of it isn't it? [speaker005:] you know, and that is a little piece of maths and tha, I mean, that is absolute rubbish! [Don:] It's only a very small part of level four. [speaker005:] Because they they've condensed it and just put in a few little bits and pieces! [Don:] Mm. [speaker006:] So you're against that because you think it trivialises it? [speaker005:] You cannot, you cannot give them the the national curriculum book! [speaker002:] I think there's an element, Paul comment? [speaker004:] I think we could all do what Andrew's... suggesting... quite easily... er... I could do it for Geography, erm, I just think it's making a lot of extra... work. [Don:] Garbage. [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Mo more than it needs? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Can I just say then we seem to have agreed that that standard... Andrew points been taken on board and dismissed out of hand [speaker004:] No, I'm not cos I think it's quite a valid [speaker002:] No I'm being [speaker004:] point he's making [speaker002:] I'm being mhm. [speaker004:] Erm [speaker002:] Don [speaker003:] It's whether we've [speaker002:] I know you carry a lot of valuable stuff in your briefcase. [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Can I borrow your briefcase? [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] Thank you. [Don:] Ca, can I make a point about the tick now? [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] Since we're at that point. I put that... inversely i i he's put down inversely fro from what we will... we are obliged to do... we're obliged to say that these levels... ha er... have been... erm... have not been checked by... SATS [speaker002:] Mhm. [Don:] if they have been [speaker002:] Mm. [Don:] but I thought to th this way... it was [speaker002:] Mhm. [Don:] you know,we we're obliged to put that little bit in... you know, there's year seven, year eight, year ten... the there won't be a tick in there and so the the these levels will be whatever you've decided they are... in the way that you... asses... but at the end of the key stage... this report will go out in Au i in September now... following SATS. [speaker002:] Mm. [Don:] Or it'll go out in July... God knows how we're gonna do it after SATS... in er a a ye at year fourteen. So we've got to have that statement in... and we've got to differentiate it some way or from the [speaker002:] But if you had your name and year at the top you could actually put a simple statement along the bottom... because you'll only be issuing it for year nine [speaker004:] And eleven. [speaker002:] well, will you because year eleven is automatically... confirmed by... levels [speaker003:] G C S E. [speaker002:] at G C, G C S E? [speaker005:] But it is end of key stage four. [speaker002:] But we will have a record of achievement, this system will not be used for years [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] year eleven, will it? So we wouldn't need it, so all I'm saying is... you could put in one simple statement at the bottom, year nine de dun de dun de dun... and will confirmed by SATS external test. [speaker004:] This will not be used at er... end of key stage four or something? [speaker002:] Well you use this reporting system in year ten... but year eleven [Don:] We'll have record of achievement. [speaker002:] you'll have a record of achievement and prob... this this yo you'll have your own format, your amended format [speaker005:] but aren't we obliged... to to produce this... erm, in [Don:] September. [speaker005:] September [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] of of of the [speaker003:] Yeah. [Don:] Following year, yeah. [speaker005:] end of that key stage four? [Don:] Yes, but it will be... it will be... this bit of it that... you know, the bit that comes [speaker002:] Right. [Don:] from the from the boards... that we'll get, cos there'll be thousands and thousands of bloody numbers! [speaker005:] Oh! [Don:] That, that you're gonna send out to parents, they're gonna look at all these numbers and oh [speaker004:] The end of key stage form can be different, different format. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] That [Don:] Mm. [speaker004:] the the bits of that tie into [Don:] Let's wait to, wait till [speaker004:] Yeah wait. [Don:] the thing arrives before we [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker002:] So what I'm saying is this will... appropriate for year seven, eight, nine and ten [Don:] We're obliged to [speaker002:] and a [Don:] say... sorry! [speaker002:] Go on [Don:] Right. [speaker002:] Don. [Don:] We're obliged [speaker004:] What's that [Don:] to say that if... er, it is not a SAT year, we are obliged to say these levels have not been confirmed by SATs... so the only in year nine... we, we don't need to say that. [speaker002:] But I think i it also... would highlight if you put it as a sentence [Don:] Right, fair enough. [speaker002:] that [Don:] rather we kept it in. [speaker002:] for year seven, eight parents it is coming, if you like, that at the end of year nine it's the end of the key stage and it's an important time de dun da, they're warned for two successive years. I know it seems a little bit i idealistic, don't know what the word is I want... but it is for warning that what's happening that the end of... ninth year is an important time in terms of er er measuring... er their pupils er relative success. So I'm suggesting that that, we could take that box out... er er and this be re-phrased as a sentence, either at the top [Don:] So, [speaker002:] or underneath I don't mind which. Okay? [Don:] How about this then, these levels have not been confirmed by SATS except... in the year nine report? [speaker003:] Well, [speaker002:] I I don't think you need the first [speaker004:] No I don't. [speaker002:] part in. [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] It's... negative. [speaker003:] well indi individual levels will be confirmed by external tests [speaker002:] For year nine pupils these levels will be confirmed by [speaker004:] When do they get the results for SATS? [speaker002:] SATS. [speaker004:] Don? [Don:] Mm? [speaker004:] When do they get the results for SATS? [Don:] July. [speaker004:] So [Don:] You mark them yourself. [speaker004:] right, okay. [speaker003:] Send a report in don't you? [speaker002:] Cos we've gotta report on... year nine at the en, in... before [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] September or... sorry, in July or [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] immediately we come back, which... is something else we have to sort out with our heads now. [Don:] The end of August I think it is in, which means then in July doesn't it? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] For year, so the sentence will be Don, for year nine pupils... er, these... levels... er... what did you put? Have been confirmed by SA [Don:] Will have been... future perfect. [speaker005:] And yo and you wouldn't be indicating that that's end of key stage three? [speaker002:] You didn't put it there! [Don:] Well... for, you know,the these levels will have been... confirmed... by... external tests. [speaker003:] What about year nine? It goes year nine pupil [speaker002:] I think you've gotta put SATS in, sorry. [speaker003:] The levels of year nine [Don:] Alright, external test bracket SATS! [speaker002:] [cough] [Don:] Right? [speaker002:] You're an awkward bugger you! That's another technical term! Yo you didn't put will have been confirmed in there but you want it in there now and then you put SATS bracket external test,extern, I can't even say it, and now you wanna put external test bracket SATS! [speaker003:] He's tired! [speaker002:] He's gorgeous! There's another technical term. [Don:] Right, so we don't want that one, we want this one? [speaker002:] Have been confirmed by SATS. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] They've been confirmed []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Been confirmed by SATS []! Okay. [speaker005:] Would you not be... indicating... end of key stage three somehow? Or... do the does everybody [speaker002:] Alright, for year nine pupils... brackets, end of key stage three. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Okay? It's important... these categories are set set out for us. [speaker003:] Mm... [Don:] So [speaker004:] Er [Don:] so we don't want this box any more then? [speaker002:] So [speaker004:] What about this then? [Don:] This box [speaker004:] Yes [Don:] can disappear? [speaker002:] That box will go and you'll have name and year [speaker003:] That's home. [speaker002:] spread out more across [Don:] No, I've put report down there. I've put report down there, cos then you have science, report... math's, report... and I put Ralph Gardener Community High School cos then I need space for community. [speaker002:] I would put Ralph Gardener Community High School report on the heading, I would put name, year and your subject there or, subject whatever... I would tighten that up [Don:] Right. [speaker002:] a bit. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I think that that [speaker003:] The lettering will be thinner [speaker002:] needs to stand, it's awful! [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Ralph Gardener High School, Community High School [speaker003:] It's a [speaker002:] needs to be, in my opinion, on it's own above the rest. [Don:] Report [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Andrew's... a a little bit better on layout than me and I'm [Don:] What... yo you want Ralph Gardener High Scho, Community High School by itself? [speaker002:] I bi I just thought it was [Don:] Where do you want report then? [speaker002:] Well Ralph Gardener Community High School hyphen report. [Don:] Have I got space you see? [speaker002:] Will that not go on [speaker003:] Community School. [speaker002:] the top? [speaker003:] Don't see why not. [speaker002:] I'm going back a step but I think it's [Don:] What do you mean? [speaker002:] important. [Don:] You're gonna tr er, well no nothing else will fit in that page but... no eno... not the package that you use [speaker002:] Ralph Gardener Community High School report. [speaker006:] Well we won't necessarily be using your package... for doing this. [Don:] Mhm. Fine! Right, you use yours cos I'm not there! [speaker005:] who whose gonna do it then? [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Well [speaker003:] I vote you! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm I'm... I was gonna come to, Andrew's made an offer but [speaker004:] volunteered a long [Don:] Right. [speaker004:] time ago. [speaker002:] that might, might er er erm... it's... we can be your system, what I'm saying is [speaker003:] Is it yours? [speaker002:] . [speaker005:] Don't even know where it is! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Oh Terry you mean. [speaker007:] Oh no, just [speaker006:] That's alright [speaker007:] sitting outside the kitchen. [speaker003:] Ah! Those two [speaker002:] A yes or a no? [speaker006:] It's It's tonight's supper! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Does... Ralph Gardener Community High School hyphen report is the heading at the top. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] Yes? [Don:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Okay. Then below it you would have da da, year... and somehow the subject fitted in on a line across, below it? So you'd have [speaker004:] What for? [speaker002:] name, year and subject would go in there... in that box that's been left free. [Don:] Do we agree that it should be big like that? [speaker002:] I think it, I I like the [speaker004:] Yeah! [speaker002:] idea of it [Don:] Yeah. [speaker002:] the su the subject [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] stands out. [speaker005:] Yeah, that's right. [speaker003:] Er, do you want the subject... er, lettering the size as that? This was Andrew's [speaker002:] No, I I I would like [speaker006:] I'll sort that out. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I like it like this. [speaker002:] I I think probably we'll be in a situation where Andrew will do a knock up [speaker003:] Well I think we need it smaller. [speaker002:] there will be several formats... that we can agree on at a later date. [speaker004:] Nice and big. [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker003:] wallpaper Paul? [speaker004:] Yep. [speaker002:] Lovely jubbly! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] Thank you very much, we've knocked that on the head. General skills and abilities we're down to now. [speaker005:] Which is gonna be a... debatable one I would of thought. [speaker002:] Can we agree er the layout? Ten point scale [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] poor, satisfactory and excellent, scale and ability... what we need to agree on is the skills and abilities that we want in there. [speaker005:] Would you use excellent rather than good. [Don:] Well no ten, level ten is bloody good! [speaker004:] Excellent, yeah. [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Okay... right, bloody good then, okay! [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Right, bloody good []! [speaker004:] And can we have crap instead of poor? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Don:] Crap, crap and bloody good, yes and er... middling! [speaker003:] Why do you always have poor? [speaker005:] Weak? [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I want to convey that meaning but I would rather not use that word. [Don:] It is poor. [speaker003:] Yes, I know... but we're sensitive [speaker002:] I've seen some words... we we [Don:] Not me! I would really call spade [speaker002:] On on the ten point scale Alan [Don:] a spade! [speaker002:] wha what's written? Is there not something, not poor something written... [LAUGHTER] ha, not W []! [Don:] Working towards [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] []! [Don:] You can't be working towards there! [speaker002:] No the... I tell you what Andrew's saying about poor [speaker005:] Weak... doesn't fit in. [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] Doesn't fit in, how do you mean? [speaker004:] Doesn't fit in with satisfactory and excellent. [speaker006:] Mm, no. [Don:] No, it's gotta be poor. [speaker005:] Aye. [speaker003:] Now hang on [speaker004:] Pathetic! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Crap! Shit []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] The boy is shit []! [Don:] Altogether, mm. [speaker006:] Un un unsatisfactory instead of poor [speaker003:] [sighing] Oh []! [speaker002:] Oh! [speaker006:] another word instead of satisfactory. [speaker004:] Safe. [speaker006:] Oh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Aye, we're going back to [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] The norm [] [speaker005:] making fair progress now aren't we []? [speaker006:] Yes, that's right, yes. He's making fair progress. [Don:] One in two, one in two! [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker004:] There's in somewhere. [speaker003:] I'd like to think of something. Let's think of something. [Don:] Hey, come on let's cause, one, level one and two are national curriculum scales for somebody in our school is poor! [speaker003:] There's no value in it, don't start it off in that position as though there's an integral in it, all the [speaker002:] Longman's Dictionary of [speaker003:] all the same! [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Life's a little bit more complex than that [speaker004:] Is it Longmans? [speaker005:] Is that a Longman's one? [speaker003:] that's merely an over-view. [speaker002:] Yes it's Longmans! [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is that a Longmans dictionary? [speaker006:] It certainly is. [speaker003:] That I see before me? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Could I call for [speaker006:] Massination, a plan for doing harm. [speaker002:] Can, can we leave that word alone for for a moment cos I think it's a bit of red herring... er, to some degree. [Don:] Pretty awful! [speaker002:] It will stand unless er... somebody can come forward with a very positive suggestion the mind's [Don:] [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker002:] blank at the moment. [Don:] [LAUGHTER] How about pretty awful and pretty [speaker002:] Can [Don:] []! [speaker002:] Can can, can we look at the skills and abilities? [speaker004:] Yes sir. [speaker002:] Cos... you know this list is as good or as bad... you want to make it. Erm... effort... we have that in probably [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker002:] everybody accept [Don:] Mhm. [speaker002:] effort? [speaker006:] There yeah. [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Angela? [speaker003:] Yep, that's fine, mm. [speaker002:] Yeah? Er... we don't have concentration at the moment... erm, I'm not sure [speaker004:] Question mark. [speaker006:] Does that fit [speaker005:] Yes I'm not sure about that. [speaker002:] what we mean by concentration... er, myself. [speaker004:] Mm. [Don:] Actually [speaker002:] Ju [Don:] I made them up just in the spur of the moment. [speaker002:] Well that's fine! [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] That's no no sweat. [speaker006:] Sorry I haven't [speaker002:] Behaviour? [speaker006:] it up. [Don:] Yep. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Mhm. [LAUGHTER] Yes []. [speaker002:] Er [Don:] I wrote following instructions because I wanted... to somehow or other impart the ability to actually... er, do something other than just... er, to do something on their own, you know... to actually work on their own. Ability to actually do something... rather than just copy something... to follow instructions means they've got to actually... do a ste step-wise thing. Right? [speaker002:] Yeah we I must admit, would a, would a parent, I mean I was at a very simple level, following instructions, go and get that ruler Jimmy? [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] In other words... you know i... in a sense vidable [speaker005:] Do doing as doing as [speaker003:] Vidable. [speaker005:] they're told! [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] Doing as they're told. [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I I know what you're saying and it's different to the way I'm interpreting it. [Don:] That's it, we need to follow a set of step lies, instructions becoming more difficult as you go on... that what was intended. [speaker003:] But you don't want to give the impression that our children are not. [speaker004:] That's the old one. [Don:] Mm. Yes, active right, okay. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] Involvement. [speaker004:] It must be there cos it's [Don:] Involvement. [speaker004:] underneath that Longman's [speaker002:] Alright. [speaker004:] dictionary look. [speaker006:] Right. [speaker002:] What about, what do you want Paul, sorry? [speaker004:] Sorry, can I some of the old... can have some [speaker002:] Oh they're there yeah. Yeah, I'm. What about a word like involvement? The other thing Don is what are the gen, what are the the erm... skills and abilities, you see there is a mathematical theme, what are the, literacy, we're supposed [Don:] Yeah, we've got, yeah that [speaker002:] to be addressing those. [Don:] yeah that's got to go in there I think. [speaker005:] Have you got to say mathematical skills? [Don:] No. [speaker004:] No. [speaker005:] No. [speaker004:] I can't remember what that one is. [Don:] I don't think [speaker005:] Aye not subject [Don:] I think, I think [speaker005:] a specific [Don:] I think, yes, no I ju [speaker002:] No... there [Don:] No [speaker002:] are general skills [Don:] Yes. [speaker002:] there are six or seven [Don:] Mm. [speaker002:] they're in the bottom of mind they've gone completely! [speaker005:] But would we not be calling [speaker006:] Yes, and I can't remember [speaker005:] it numeracy rather than mathematical [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker005:] skills? [speaker002:] Alright. [Don:] Alright,no no if you say numeracy then they'll know what it means but... erm... I fe I felt that numeracy and mathematical skills would not be applicable to all, I mean, I don't think it might [speaker005:] No. [Don:] be applicable to you, but Right, right sorry! [speaker003:] ? [Don:] [whistling] Okay! Er, it might not be applicable to talents or erm... hand spans or things like that but... I certainly would want to include it, it might be very important in, in my subject. And I would like to be able to include it. [speaker002:] Er, I think we would, oh! [Don:] See, I think we're obliged to... to now say something about... erm... these general skills, I think... in light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks [speaker003:] Mm. [Don:] there should also be in there something like... grammar and spelling. [speaker003:] No, I totally disagree with that! And certainly not in the light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks... that's [Don:] Why? [speaker003:] extremely questionable! [speaker002:] What are the hell are they [speaker006:] What [speaker002:] What is that? The [speaker003:] I mean if we're gonna discuss that that needs to be, you need to go over that in more detail. [speaker002:] Is is is is there not an element that hinges round... orally... to do with the [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] ability to [speaker003:] orally [speaker002:] speak? [speaker003:] yes... er, and literacy that's something different. [speaker004:] Mm. [Don:] Oh come on now! I mean the government is pushing... er... spelling a as as something which is very important... spelling is going to be part of all course work as well as all examinations now! [speaker003:] I'm not denying that. [Don:] Well... therefore, it's important to everybody! [speaker003:] I'm not denying that. [Don:] Therefore we better comment on it! [speaker003:] Well, no what I'm, what I'm denying is I'm questioning your assertion on what's been happening in the last couple of weeks... that we should react to that... on a pa... on er er report that hasn't been released, right? That's been partially responded to... some people suspect for political... reasons... and rushing to that on report and I think we need to... consider that in a more way. [Don:] But don't you think that spelling is important for everybody to? [speaker003:] Of course I do! I think spelling's [Don:] Well why not? [speaker003:] important. [speaker004:] Angela I seem to rem [speaker003:] The wrong one. [speaker004:] remember that just a few weeks ago that you were de, almost denying that we'd have to do this sort of thing! [speaker002:] What? [speaker003:] Do you, a few weeks ago? [speaker004:] Yeah, actually at the end of, end of [speaker003:] I can't remember saying saying you [speaker004:] last term yeah. [speaker003:] Oh! [speaker004:] When Don first actually... broached this whole thing. [speaker003:] No,a no [speaker002:] With all due respect is tha is that re is that relevant? [speaker003:] No, hang on here misrepresenting what I'm saying there. [speaker004:] No, all I'm saying is that... I'd like to support Don and what Don's just said there... and I think that er, we a that is what we are gonna have to do. It might not be, be down as black and white [speaker003:] But, no wait a minute cos they're two issues! [speaker004:] at the moment. [speaker003:] I, no, those are two i issues. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] First of all you're misrepresenting what I'm saying about those figures [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker003:] right? And, whether you believe that or not... that is not effecting what I'm saying today and whether it's accurate or not! [speaker006:] That's right! [speaker003:] I I agree with you that those are concerns... but I would not like things like grammar to be isolated out from other language skills [speaker005:] No, not grammar but but basically, maths and English are the tools that the other subjects [speaker003:] Oh yes, I agree with you. [speaker005:] are are are working [speaker002:] Could [speaker005:] with. [speaker002:] Could we work under a more general, how would you feel about if we put something down like, I dunno, written work... would, is is that [Don:] I've got written work. [speaker002:] Does that not... writing and neatness. [Don:] Writing and neatness, no... spelling is a, to my mind, spelling is important. [speaker003:] Of course it is, I'm not denying that! Are [Don:] I I to [speaker003:] you repeating yourself? [Don:] No. [speaker003:] If we put, what about orally and literacy? And that includes all. [Don:] We are obliged, I'll say it again [speaker002:] No, we're not [Don:] we [speaker002:] obliged! [Don:] We are obliged now... to write [speaker004:] G C S E? [Don:] to to to re to report on, er in all course work... to take five percent of our [speaker004:] Yeah. [Don:] er [speaker004:] That's right. [Don:] course work... and base ma ma ma er do do something along the lines of spelling. Sorry, I'm not putting it very well. [speaker003:] Yes, but that's assessed in English underneath the attainment target of writing. [Don:] No, it's a separate! [speaker004:] But we're obliged every subject! [speaker003:] That... but anyway that doesn't ha hang on that... that doesn't approve what you're saying, what I'm saying as far as English is concerned... that's assessed underneath the attainment target writing [Don:] Mhm. [speaker003:] what I'm concerned about is put things down like that, er like that... it encourages erm... an appreciation of language skills that are bitty, partial, they can be pulled apart and it's not the model of language teaching that I would like to promote. [Don:] Right. [speaker003:] I'm not saying that spelling [Don:] Mm. [speaker003:] isn't important, obviously as an English [Don:] Mm. [speaker003:] teacher I'm not going to argue that but what I'm saying is that in this report I don't think that's necessarily the appropriate format. [Don:] Well how am I going to report... to parents... our spelling? [speaker003:] Well... reporting them un underneath the writ li literacy... that is, that it's a literacy skill! [speaker004:] But I think it's a bit more specific than that isn't it? [Don:] Right. [speaker003:] If they don't, if they can't spell they're not literate! And if they can't write in sentences they're not literate! [speaker004:] So you would just put in something for literacy? [speaker002:] So [speaker003:] Well what I'm sugge, but as an alternative I'm suggesting that as far as that's concerned you put down [speaker002:] Well we [speaker004:] No, I don't think most of parents would have a clue what you're talking about! I'm sorry! [speaker003:] Don't you? [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] But we've [speaker003:] Don't apologise! [speaker002:] But but you haven't argued with that mathematical innumeracy and I think it's a comparable situation! Is it not? [speaker005:] Yes, well I I would object to [speaker002:] I'm not su [speaker005:] somebody talking about mathematical skills. [speaker002:] I think we're saying the same thing. [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I'm trying to take an overview [speaker005:] Yeah, yeah. [speaker002:] I think Angela's saying exactly the same [speaker003:] I'm trying to take an over-view. [speaker002:] that Alan's saying and I think we'll have to respect that with all du [speaker005:] Mhm. [speaker002:] with all due respect. [Don:] Ah, but at the same time we don't have to comment on mathematical skills... at G C S E. [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] No, but the ar, the previous argument was whether there would be an un sa understanding of it, we won't understand literacy. I think we have to recognise Angela's concern if er... a subject area that she's trying to present, present and she is not precluding you from doing what you've got [speaker003:] [yawning] Oh no []! [speaker002:] to do, she's just offering a different way of doing it. If you like, a different heading under which to do it. [Don:] Well [speaker004:] So she would put wha in... you would put in what, sorry? [speaker002:] Just literacy. [speaker003:] I would put literacy. Because it involves more things. [speaker004:] No no I disagree with that. [Don:] Yeah, I disagree, I think I would still like to put [speaker004:] Yep. [Don:] spelling grammar... punctuation [speaker003:] Yeah but [Don:] whatever. [speaker003:] but these [speaker002:] Is that not all part of literacy? [speaker003:] Yeah. If, you see if you put down literacy the the whole show's in there, I mean if you're going to put i, put isolated spelling it i it encourages a very limited view of what English is about and success in using language. [Don:] It's nothing to do [speaker002:] Angela? [Don:] with English! [speaker002:] At that... Oh! Andrew, comment [speaker003:] That's [speaker002:] on that? [speaker003:] course it is, it's language is a [speaker002:] I mean,a you sit outside it I [speaker003:] medium of learning! [speaker002:] any axe to grind? [speaker003:] , it's not English subject area I'm talking about. [speaker006:] Erm... yeah, the the the axe... to to to grind is is... yes, I pick up the the the political stick here... er, that was... you know, that that, you know from the other the other end to you and yeah, yes I also think we're being beaten with a with a with a stick here... for three R's... er, if we're forced into the corner of having to use an ignorant white hall idiots er [speaker003:] Inadequately educated. [speaker006:] inadequately [LAUGHTER] educated persons []... er, view of what it is to be well educated i.e.... we've got to comment on the spelling... as if it were important [Don:] But I think it is. [speaker004:] I think it is, yeah! [speaker006:] ah, in the way that they [Don:] I agree with what they're saying! [speaker006:] in the way that they're saying it [speaker003:] I agree with it, I [speaker006:] in the way that they're saying it [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] then... no. But if... as educationalists... taking full account the subject specialism... and our own knowledge of it, we would care to make some comment then that is a different thing altogether. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker006:] So that if we deal with it er... er... in a way that we can find... a professionally acceptable [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] then I think that we ought to comment on it... but if we are doing media response [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] then I don't think... that we ought to go along with, for instance, just using a term like, spelling to [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] summarise [speaker003:] It's [speaker006:] something which [speaker003:] it's more complex. [speaker006:] is more complex than that. [speaker003:] Yeah. that's my... I'm not saying it isn't important [speaker006:] Professionally, if we did that we'd be cheapening ourselves. [speaker002:] I I I think [speaker003:] Absolutely! [speaker002:] with all due respect here we have to respect the wishe, Angela's wishes, er, I mean, on the one hand we're respecting Alan's... er er and I I [speaker005:] No, I I'm gi it's not my, I I would just look at mathematical skills and saying that you're not really... yo you don't really mean mathematical skills. I mean, for most of you [speaker006:] Aha. [speaker005:] yo... you know, I mean i i i if Andrew were saying... he's... he's he's pretty limited at maths... you wouldn't really be meaning limited in maths, you'd be meaning... lim, limited in [speaker003:] Certain skills. [speaker005:] numeracy... because Andrew wouldn't have been testing algebra... or... things like that, you'd have just been looking at the numbers. [speaker003:] Oh! See [speaker004:] Oh!. [speaker003:] and that's what I'm saying. [Don:] Mhm. [speaker005:] So you're wanting a general [speaker003:] Yes... that doesn't exclude... but includes... all of that, but at the same time... although everybody that's going to read it may not understand the intricacies of it all... as professionals we're giving more than a passing nod, so that was something else, er er and something more involved than English teacher than making them jump through loops [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker003:] and cross t's and dot i's! [Don:] But that,a a that's what I said [speaker002:] If it's just a [Don:] to you! [speaker002:] No, if I may... aye, I er, something's just occurred to me and we are looking we are looking, the other heading here of general skills and abilities.,. and se spelling [speaker004:] Spelling is very specific. [speaker002:] is specific. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] And on that basis I would [speaker004:] But [speaker002:] go along with literacy. [speaker003:] Li literacy and [speaker002:] And I think I'm I'm always inclined to do a Colin and say, you know [speaker003:] Right. [speaker002:] I've made my mind up and that's the way it's gonna be! I hate [speaker003:] But [speaker002:] doing things like that but... I I I I believe quite strongly what Angela's saying... er, if you came to me and presented something ba ba, a total... er, conviction that it might be in a sense... damaging... er the er the the... the concept people have of your subject, or might have... I would listen very carefully to that, and I also ta, I remember Gordon saying... some time ago and... whilst Gordon drove me crackers... he talked about the government saying you've gotta do this, you've go and he said there are things that we must believe in as educationalists ourselves, and professionalists [speaker003:] I agree. [speaker002:] ourselves... despite what the governors [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] er, the government say to us. And I believe personally in this context it would be foolish, at the moment, to go down a narrow road until such time as we are ca

[Andrew:] A teacher needs a kid needs to have a teacher comment about its progress in some... specific area of literacy... such as a syntax [Angela:] Mm. [Andrew:] or its spelling or its grammar... then... you as its subject teacher should make a [Angela:] Opportunity's there. [Andrew:] comment to that effect [Angela:] Mm. [Andrew:] specifically... and tailored to that child. [Paul:] I'm sorry I don't like the... the term literacy, I don't, I think it's too er...... I think right, you need their spelling [Rod:] Er, literacy is... it's one of the general skills, I'm sure it's down as literacy... numeracy's the other one [Paul:] It may be but, yeah. [Rod:] but, but then we are con, if the argument on the one hand is we should conform to what the government's saying and I'm saying that's what the government says as one of the general areas we should address... I can't be wrong both ways if you follow my drift? You can't have your cake [Angela:] Mm. [Rod:] and eat it! [Angela:] Well on the attainment targets for English they, what they've done is they put the spelling and punctuation underneath presentation [Don:] Mm. [Angela:] they talk about surface features but I mean that's gonna be e even more for people to understand. [Andrew:] Well jus just to lighten the mood for a moment and to go along with high-falooting words... here are some [Angela:] Ha! [Andrew:] high-falooting words for... weak, oh poor rather, poor... here we go, atrocious, abominable, execrable [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] Oh, execrable, yeah I like that []! [Andrew:] there are better one's [Alan:] That's crap! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] there are better ones to come. Unredeemable [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] flagrant, egregious [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] abysmal, lamentable, excruciating, deplorable, disreputable [Angela:] is nice. [Andrew:] unsavoury, louche, diabolic [Alan:] Louche? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Listen, listen, listen, listen [Angela:] What's this? [Andrew:] flagitious! [Angela:] God, that sounds rude! That's [Andrew:] heinous, illiquidous [Don:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh ah []! [Andrew:] navarious, pernicious, and finally odious and obnoxious! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] Oh well []! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] Ah yeah []! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Can we settle for odious stroke obnoxious and then move up the. [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] I'd love to [Rod:] Thank you for bringing a little bit of light in. [Don:] Execra [Angela:] Mm. [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] That's great that one []! [Rod:] Right... erm [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] That's disgusting []! [Rod:] To... how we doing? [Don:] [cough] [Angela:] Are you, are you seriously saying to me right, as a parent you choose a qualification, you like... pulling out your personal C V, and as a educationalist that literacy is a high-falooting word? [Paul:] To... some people it might be, yes. [Rod:] I I [Angela:] Bloody hell! [Rod:] Well I think, you know [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] That's... that's not very good English! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] I I [] If today, it is perfectly [Rod:] but [Angela:] appropriate [Rod:] with all due respect we will meet that more and more once we have to put descriptions of levels down, there will be words [Don:] Mm. [Rod:] there that they don't understand and it's [Don:] But that [Rod:] going to be educational programme. [Paul:] But I think this is this is something the kids will use as well. [Angela:] The, they make it so obvious. [Alan:] Yes, but the ki, if the kid's gonna say well... what's literacy? And you say, you know [Andrew:] That's right. [Alan:] and you say well [Angela:] Reading, writing and spelling. [Alan:] You're a, you're a... it's all, you know [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] And all that stuff []. [Alan:] your English! [Angela:] Yeah! [Andrew:] Yes. [Rod:] Or or or language, not English [Alan:] Yeah. [Rod:] but... language. [Angela:] Language. [Andrew:] Yeah. [Alan:] You see because if you start doing it like that... I mean, you could say... th th the mathematical skills, you could say well he's good on number, but his graph work is poor and... you know, he di, you know, you cannot... you can't [Don:] Yeah. [Alan:] you can't be that [Don:] Alan me for me, mathematical... but I accept what you're saying that you mean... numerical for most of that alphabetical as as opposed to No, I said that. [Rod:] Wi with with with all due respect... you know we we we're talking about the precision of the word and when you actually come to a ten point scale there will be some imprecision anyway in the... is it a six? Is it a five? Is, d'you know what I mean? [Angela:] Mm. [Rod:] So I I I think there's going to be some balancing anyway. [Don:] You you're discussing this and that instead of putting presentation I put and neatness. [Andrew:] it's possible... then [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] [Angela:] Pardon? [Andrew:] then [Don:] instead of putting presentation I put and neatness. [Paul:] It's like you know, do we read them though [Don:] Mm. [Andrew:] Mm. She does. [Don:] Well it's a that's [Rod:] Right. [Don:] just a fact. [Paul:] Mm. [Don:] Instead of presentation I put writing and neatness [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] Ah, yeah []! [Don:] to make it easy. [Andrew:] It's our duty anyway to get these words though... the last minutes of discussion have been possibly the most valuable... cos if we cannot... use language accurately [Angela:] It's about language, it's important! Yes it is! [Andrew:] then we're not doing our job then are we? [Angela:] Yes! You're absolutely right! [Rod:] That's right, but the trouble is using language accurately... with all due respect... is is to some degree [Don:] That's a [Rod:] from where you're standing. [Don:] terrible expression with due respect! [Rod:] With limited respect [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Is it it depend on where you're where you're standing doesn't it? [Don:] [LAUGHTER] When really it means with no respect []! [Rod:] Oh that's unkind! [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Wouldn't be sitting here going through this process if I if I hadn't got no respect for your! [Angela:] Could we have punctuality down there? [Rod:] Well I was goi [Angela:] I would quite [Rod:] T [Angela:] like that. [Rod:] Right. [Don:] Colour coded pencils for the classes! [Rod:] Ca can we just go through [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] at the moment we've got effort and behaviour acceptable, we've got numeracy acceptable and we've got literacy acceptable... with reservations but, tough cookie! We've got attendance... I was going to suggest that we made that attendance stroke punctuality [Don:] Mhm. If you get that all in. Be in on time. [Rod:] Yes? [Paul:] Yes [Don:] Mm. [Andrew:] I agree. [Paul:] Yes. [Don:] So so ca can I... effort, what about this concentration bit, that was a query? [Rod:] Er [Paul:] Mm. [Rod:] what was on the orig, what did we have on the ori, I'm not saying the original list is like, is right Paul, I had something in there about homework, whether people wanted [Paul:] No. [Rod:] The the premise on this was... what... what do parents, and I know the words are wrong but at least it moved people along way... er er er what do parents want to know about their youngsters? Er, very simple... and [Don:] It's hardly our authority [Rod:] that was my feeling? [Don:] is it? [Rod:] Sorry? [Don:] Hardly. [Rod:] No, well I'm I'm saying to you the same sort of things, in general skills and abilities there are certain things that we required to put in... the er... numeracy the literacy... er, to some degree attendance and punctuality, although we don't have to do it on a subject specific basis... erm... we, everybody wants... to know about he young,ho... whether their youngsters are trying i.e. effort... ha, whether they behave in lessons. Erm... do we want... areas like working with others, do we want homework? I mean, that's what you're saying [Paul:] Not on skills. [Alan:] Not those two. [Rod:] You don't [Angela:] You did. [Rod:] want homework? [Paul:] No [Don:] Yeah. [Paul:] I don't want homework. [Don:] No, I don't want homework. [Paul:] No [Rod:] Nobody seems to want homework in. [Don:] No. [Rod:] Why's that? [Andrew:] It's spontaneous... doing it off their own back. [Don:] Well how do you make a comment... on how the kids done a homework? [Angela:] [whispering] [] [Don:] It's very difficult on a ten point scale [Andrew:] [whispering] [] [Don:] wha what's ten for some kids [Rod:] Sorry? [Don:] may be three for another. [Alan:] We have a homework policy that is accepted in the schools. [Don:] We don't need comments! [Rod:] No, I'm just asking I'm not [Alan:] Yes. [Rod:] I'm not trying to be [Don:] Mm mm. [Rod:] I'm just asking [Angela:] Testing us. [Rod:] why? Well I haven't, I haven't got an axe to grind! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Andrew, homework? [Andrew:] I think that it isn't a general skill it at needs to be commented on, I think that it needs to commented on I think that it ought to be commented on in the... comment box. [Don:] Yeah like... he never [Rod:] Right. [Don:] handed in a piece of homework [Andrew:] Yes. [Don:] all year! [Andrew:] Yes. [Rod:] Would yo would would [Andrew:] Yes. [Rod:] I, when I do the comment thing... put in... would we, I say I, that's conceited! Would we put some guide lengths on on things [Andrew:] Yes. [Rod:] that might be commented upon? [Don:] To give [Andrew:] Yes. [Don:] people starters [Andrew:] Yes. [Don:] for five. [Angela:] Mm. [Don:] Yes. [Rod:] Mhm. [Don:] Homework, things that might be commented on in this [Paul:] Yes. [Don:] section, art, colour of your socks [Andrew:] Yes. [Angela:] I have put on my er, general skills and abilities, working with others... I wanted some social [Don:] Could we not [Rod:] Is this [Don:] summarise that [Rod:] is this [Don:] and put the collectively [Rod:] are they [Don:] put a collective noun for that which [Andrew:] I [Don:] is what Paul was saying [Paul:] It's [Don:] a minute ago isn't [Angela:] Mm. [Don:] it? [Paul:] It's [Angela:] It's, what did you say? [Rod:] Paul. [Angela:] Pardon? [Don:] Horrible! [Rod:] It's it's got to be ca... often work sideways from working with this door open? [Don:] No [Paul:] No, I just [Don:] No. [Paul:] opened the door... about a minute ago. [Don:] No, I think that... so social skills [Angela:] then. [Don:] perhaps [Angela:] Yeah, some... some of it in. [Don:] Social skills. [Rod:] We are required in the same way as we require numeracy and literally... literacy, literally! to have something that indicates how the youngster gets on with others, I'm sure that's one of the general skills and ability. [Don:] Social skills, yeah... I think summarises the whole lot together. [Angela:] Mhm. [Don:] How you get on with other people. [Paul:] What about listening skills and... and speaking skills? [Rod:] Well hang on, social skills. Cos these'll have to be clarified to some degree. [Don:] You're gonna have a great deal of. [Paul:] Body language! [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] But, but the words will be in, the clarification needs to be for as a as an addendum for for staff doesn't it? [Alan:] Yes, a clarification is for the staff not for the parents! [Rod:] Oh no! [Paul:] Well, obviously not! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] Ca can I [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] Or we'll be writing the whole books for them! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] So concentration's there, okay. Could I, can I say something about [Paul:] Have faith in our prayers! [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] I think that we should be aware of what these levels... [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] mean. I think that we must... whe when we're, we we must come to some sort of consensus in the staff as to what the levels mean... in inverted commas. [Angela:] Can I... suggest belo, below average... rather than poor? [Paul:] I'm afraid I don't like that average. [Angela:] I know it isn't ideal [Paul:] Ooh no. [Angela:] but it's... er it's... a little bit better than poor. [Paul:] I prefer poor [Don:] I like poor. I like poor. [Paul:] Mm. [Don:] Let's have a vote on it. Below average? Execrable? Poor? [Angela:] Oh not poor, come on! How, how can you possibly like poor? The negative connotations of a word like that, come on! [Don:] But some of them [Alan:] Well [Don:] are bloody poor! [Alan:] well wo well one out of ten is indicating that they're poor! [Angela:] I ye yes... and I agree with that, but we're supposed to be communicating with the little bastards right [Don:] No, no I'm sorry! [Angela:] in a sensitive way right, emphasising the positive [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] [Don:] No, no we're supposed to be communicating with the parents! [Paul:] Parents [Angela:] Exactly little bastards, that's what I said! [Alan:] But we're not pandering... it's not pandering to the kids! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Angela:] [shouting] I agree with you... but you, I mean, if, well you might as well say shite! Levels one, two and three are shite []! [Andrew:] Can I... Can I [Angela:] I mean if you're going to take that to the ultimate lengths [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [Angela:] the way that you lot are going on [Don:] Why Shite, you know, the word is shit! [Angela:] It's bloody John Wayne's version of educational terminology! [Rod:] With all, with all, with all due respect [Don:] Oh [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Sold to Angela's er... mini outburst [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] I I... can we leave the word poor and below alone for the moment... so that [Angela:] Right sir. [Rod:] Angela can reflect [Angela:] Yes sir. [Rod:] upon it [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] and come up with other alternatives [Paul:] What [Rod:] we get what you're saying but at the moment... er... can, can we stick on skills and abilities and try and [Alan:] Right. [Rod:] get in here. [Angela:] Sorry! [Andrew:] I'm I'm stuck for a word I've I've asked... Angela, I can't explain to her what I mean... it's awful when you, when you got a word at the back of your mind... it's one of those words where... ki, a kid ham... anybody, any person... can... er, realise that something needs doing and do it without... being told to do it. Er, they have... er, a se se [Paul:] Independence? [Angela:] Sense of responsibility. [Paul:] Some sort of a level of independence. [Alan:] Responsibility. [Andrew:] No.... None of those things. More creative than that. Er... you know, perhaps if... Baden Powell might have appr approved it, of it you know it's it's [Angela:] Weird? [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] [LAUGHTER] [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] I'm being []! Go on, carry on. [Don:] I don't know what you're getting at, what what [Andrew:] You don't do you, no? Never mind, as an extra skill. [Rod:] O okay. [Don:] Oh as an extra skill? [Andrew:] As an extra skill, yes. [Don:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Perhaps it's so rare amongst [Rod:] At the moment [Don:] children that er, this [LAUGHTER] it seems unlikely that er [Angela:] Stickability? That's a Brownie [Andrew:] No! [Angela:] term. [Rod:] At the moment [Don:] [LAUGHTER] Dib, dib, dib, that's a [Andrew:] , no. [Don:] scout term []! [Rod:] I think, I think you're all getting a bit tired are you not? [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Well the cab firm said we could. I'm sorry to have brought this down to! [Rod:] At the moment we have [Angela:] What have we got? [Rod:] i effort... behaviour [Angela:] Yeah. [Rod:] literacy, numeracy, attendance, punctuality and social skills. [Angela:] Right. [Alan:] Well [Rod:] Is [Alan:] writing and neatness can just be called presentation. [Rod:] Right. [Alan:] Er [Angela:] Give us again what you've got, I want... effort, behaviour [Rod:] Effort, behaviour... literacy, numeracy... attendance, punctuality, social skills and... presentation. [Alan:] And have we not gotta take care that we don't... we don't have such an enormous list [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] Oh yeah []! [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] that people are gonna be going []! [Rod:] Well, all that, all we've got at the moment Alan is a list of things that we feel should be in there [Don:] But [Rod:] it may well be that you'll say well, we want to put these in a specific order [Don:] Aha. [Rod:] or or that we want to leave some of these out. All I'm... trying to do at the moment... is to sort of get [Angela:] Is do like a shopping list. [Rod:] ideas of er [Don:] Aha. [Rod:] a shopping list [Don:] on there because I I I I, this following instructions I remembered why I put it now... we are, but one you were saying that [Paul:] Pardon? [Don:] we're obliged to report on social skills and so forth [Rod:] Mm. [Don:] one of the most important things that bias report on is problem solving, and that was my... attempt at... problem solving. [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] Is it []! [Andrew:] The word that I'm looking for... is [Don:] Problem solving? No? [Andrew:] No! That's two words! [Don:] Ah shit! [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] One word which... includes problem solving [Rod:] Can fo, can we for the moment you have a a specific task Andrew which is to come up with a word can we put... can we put problem solving in for the moment? [Andrew:] Mm. [Rod:] Do we agree that we want something that that that that says [Don:] Well you see following instructions... isn't really problem solving... but it's sa... partly a long line and the kid's would know... what it means... mm, that they know [Angela:] I mean I would put that under... group work and social skills and no er... the way I would approach it but it may not apply. [Paul:] I quite [Angela:] D'you see? [Paul:] like problem solving. [Rod:] We... I'll have to [Andrew:] Alright, well go and [Rod:] go bu [Andrew:] do some then! [Rod:] I'll have to back through my [Don:] Instead of [Rod:] general skills [Don:] alright, problem solving, at last! [Rod:] So at the moment we've got one, two, three, four, five six [Don:] There's only an extra [Rod:] so seven eight [Andrew:] Fine. [Don:] There's only an extra one there! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven [Angela:] We could leave literacy, numeracy no? [Don:] there's only an extra one there. [Rod:] Literacy, numeracy, we have nothing [Don:] Fo... nothing for co, concentration's out... and literacy's in... following instructions is out, problem solving's in... er, mathematical's numeracy... er, social skills is extra. [Rod:] And presentation I've got. [Don:] Presentation is writing [Angela:] Yeah. [Don:] and neatness. [Paul:] Yeah instead of writing and neatness. [Rod:] Any further comments? [Angela:] Ah, isn't behaviour in, in social skill... and then we could drop that as a separate one? [Alan:] No, I think the behaviour [Paul:] No. [Alan:] is very important. [Angela:] You want to, want to see that separate? No I'm not saying? [Don:] It may well be a social skill but I think it's [Angela:] aye [Don:] worthwhile [Alan:] It's a one that's [Angela:] You want it identified separately? [Rod:] We... we would [Angela:] Yeah. [Rod:] have to... er er I'll I'll try and come up with some talk of, some sort of definitions, guidelines of, I mean, effort's effort, I do, do you have to explain effort? Not really cos [Angela:] No. [Don:] Cos I come back to what I said about five minutes ago? [Rod:] Yep. [Don:] These levels erm... they've got to be in the context of the levels... of the national curriculum or fail to to be valuable.... We canna have everybody... putting... eights, nines and tens... and nobody putting ones, twos, and threes because then it it becomes meaningless... er, in relation to the section... it's got to bear some relation... to what sort of standard you expect from a child at at such [Paul:] What's this? For what? [Don:] at such an a [Paul:] It's for [Don:] Well these, these are te, it's a ten point scale [Rod:] Mm. [Paul:] This effort thing? [Don:] Yes, the the the all these [Paul:] Oh I didn't know that. [Don:] have have to be at... that's why it's a ten point scale [Paul:] Yeah but... I don't see how that might have to relate to national curriculum er [Rod:] Well that was one of the reasons for doing it on the basis that there's a sort of uniformity and that we're trying to set a consistent standard. [Alan:] Yeah, you've got a ten point scale but with effort we can hardly say... hey, there's a class there and you haven't, you haven't put anybody down as poor! [Rod:] Oh no! [Don:] No no! [Rod:] Ah, we don't have to [Don:] I'm not saying [Rod:] apply that [Don:] I'm not saying that... what I'm saying is that... that we must all have... at the back of our minds a a sort of considered opinion of what's [Angela:] Aye consensus of what [Don:] a consensus of opinion of of what levels [Angela:] Yeah. [Don:] are, yeah. [Angela:] Right. [Alan:] Well hopefully we already have. [Don:] Well I think i, I think it's, I think it's it something that should be [Angela:] Emphasised. [Don:] emphasised at a whole staff meeting [Alan:] Yes. [Don:] that we should [Alan:] Yes but the, that we needn't worry about at this stage I think. [Paul:] What for these? For these here? [Don:] Yeah, because invariably somebody's gonna put... erm, behaviour eight... and, everybody else is gonna put behaviour two and it's gonna become meaningless. [Alan:] Well no! [Paul:] It's gonna happen. [Angela:] Well no, cos some classes [Alan:] Not necessarily [Don:] But eight... no but eight... in terms of in terms of behaviour [Angela:] Aha. [Don:] er, is... very very good and if you, it's it's level A at G C S E... in the area. [Paul:] Well it shouldn't be like that! [Angela:] Ah oh ha no come on Don! [Paul:] no it shouldn't, no I disagree with that! [Angela:] You can't quantify their [Paul:] You can't [Angela:] behaviour [Paul:] no! [Angela:] I can see, I can [Paul:] I me [Angela:] see the point of having [Paul:] Yeah. [Angela:] coherence of, er [Don:] Mhm. [Angela:] like that, but not... not to that [Paul:] Mm. [Angela:] fine point, it's classifying the kids too much! [Don:] No, I alright, I, yeah [Angela:] And in some class rooms the kids are gonna go down for a variety of reasons, they're gonna... they're gonna work their ticket... and in other class rooms they won't! And the gi, that's gotta be reflected. [Don:] Oh yeah I I ca... yeah, I I accept I'm I'm being [Angela:] What d'you mean? [Don:] finickety but I [Rod:] Well I tho though I I take what Don's saying in a general [LAUGHTER] []. [Don:] In a general way, yes. [Rod:] Actually I wouldn't mind it staying open cos I'm a bit hot. [Don:] Right, leave it open. Yep, leave it open. [Rod:] Is that alright? Andrew could you come and hold this door? [Andrew:] Certainly. [Don:] It's still [Andrew:] I'll put head in [Rod:] Erm [Andrew:] close it. [Rod:] we we've gone over... er, I mean are we basically happy at that? So we need to re-draft it... we... it needs to be sort of re-drafted in in a format [Angela:] Yes, it's thanks very much [Rod:] that, that we've got [Angela:] for doing that. [Rod:] and if I didn't say it strong enough, as Angela's done, it has given us a real basis to work on Don and it is appreciated. [Angela:] Mm, it is. [Rod:] Yep. We, pupil, teacher, date... does that still apply? Yes, it does doesn't it? Yes. I was just thinking about whether people sign but it does, no it still applies. Oh Andrew it doesn't ma [Angela:] No I mean this guff... that was... you know, or stuff... erm, we've got more categories than we originally started with. [Rod:] Well you would just need an extra space or two spaces on the bottom. D'you want to look at whether... you put them in any particular order? [Angela:] I think you should yeah. [Alan:] Yes, I think or I, and things like effort and behaviour [Don:] Behaviour. [Alan:] are important. [Rod:] Well we [Angela:] Individual as opposed to things that are hard like. [Rod:] We we we finish in five minutes I feel that [Paul:] Mm. [Rod:] I asked Terry to come along because one of the things I tho I tho... I hope we might get round to spending a few minutes on was about... Alan's raised it before about... records coming in... er, and what the state of the game is in records coming into us... and how we're transferring that information, or not transferring that information onto dep onto department's national curriculum... er... material [Don:] Mm. [Rod:] is starting to flow into us. [Paul:] Yes. [Rod:] Er er and there are i implications for you in as much that... my simplistic idea would be that... everything in terms of a subject would be on a separate sheet... so that [Don:] Mhm. [Rod:] maths information we had a, a child would go straight to the maths [Alan:] Yeah. [Rod:] department etcetera etcetera. [Alan:] But would it? [Paul:] Yeah. [Alan:] Whether [Rod:] Well [Alan:] you would [Rod:] the point I'm making now is we've got Terry here [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] just to give you some background information cos... we do need to address that, I know it's a side issue from this... are we fairly happy with that? [Angela:] Yes. [Don:] Other than [Angela:] Poor. [Don:] poor. I'm strongly thinking that at [Rod:] What else [Don:] some stage you've got to say... to a kid [Rod:] Right, whilst [Don:] you are not good! [Rod:] you have that on disk how much... how onerous is it [Angela:] I agree. [Rod:] for you to do [Don:] No I can I can move it, I can, yeah. [Rod:] Right, so would you do that for us so we [Don:] Yeah. [Rod:] can at some point get together and then [Don:] I can't do it here! [Rod:] Oh no! No [Don:] No. [Rod:] no! [Don:] I haven't got a dictionary. [Rod:] Well... you've got Friday night don't be so silly! [Don:] Mm. [Rod:] Erm [Alan:] All over your place on Saturday [Rod:] we can we can review that again. [Don:] Right okay. [Rod:] Aye Saturday morning! Is that okay? [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So tha, thank you very much for that, a little bit heated on occasion but we've got there. [Angela:] Good though wasn't it? [Rod:] No, I get very offended and upset [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] and agitated cos I like... smoothness and light. Go back to what I asked Terry... about, just so that you're in the picture really. [Paul:] Yeah. [Terry:] I think... one of the biggest problems we've got... or I've I've had in the last couple of years is that we've got so many primary schools that we get children from... Spring Gardens and Western... are now producing national curriculum information for which Marian has... got. It's come in in different ways, maths, English and science... from Spring Gardens is separate... separate sheets which we can actually take out the files and give... to each department, there's no problem there... Saint John's... again, is separate sheets, Collingwood isn't, it's actually on... photocopiable sheets, we either cut them up and give them out separately... in some form or whatever, and what I've, what we hope to do over the next... maybe this year is to ask them for a... sheet each, for each subject that we can actually take out of the file and give to each department, so that is has arrived, it ha did arrive last year... but it arrived in such hotch botch that... we didn't actually give it out, but we certainly have it this year and Marian and I... certainly, Marian anyway will get that together and give it out to departments. I know Paul's been down to Percy Saint John's and they are quite far ahead... believe it or not they have got separate sheets for most subjects and we'll able to do that... English at pri Spring Gardens is good, so it maths because that was actually dealt with by erm... Barbara [Rod:] Barbara. [Terry:] who is now left, but never the less it's been taken over by [Alan:] Yes well the the ne the new girl's very [Terry:] Yeah and [Alan:] very good as well. [Terry:] Yeah to, yeah she's okay, Janice, but there is somebody specifically in charge of each of the areas within the primary schools, they keep changing because they keep leaving but I mean obviously the there is... it is going on. The problem I have is putting them into forms and last was a was a specific example because we ended up with our seven G N, and I took the i, the information from each of the primary schools... and put them into form classes. Now this year what I've done is actually going to see the form teacher... and look at the classes and they've actually given me a lot more information this year and hopefully, keep our fingers crossed, the classes are very varied and we have good, we have middling, and we have the not so good and we've tried to keep those like that. [Paul:] [whispering] Yeah we are, not so [Terry:] It is [Paul:] good []! [Terry:] it is [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] well not saying tha, I mean I... and again I, I think what I need to do is get a sheet again, obviously working with yourselves and Rod... to get you more information to make sure the classes are not... and don't get same situation as last year [Rod:] Are we in a position Terry then... for every child... t to... for example with years, with with with seven or eight etcetera to say to Alan [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] right... there's a sheet er, that indicates... er, what we are aware of the mathematical ability... sorry, the, aye, the mathematical ability o o of every child at... i.e. from Spring Gardens it will be a separate sheet [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] but from... wherever you said, if they're using one sheet for all three... we would need [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] at the present time to photocopy a couple of extra ones so Angela can have one [Terry:] That's right. [Rod:] and Don can have one. [Terry:] That's right. Yeah. [Alan:] I don't I don't know that you need to do all this... I mean, we would like ac... I mean as far as I'm concerned we would like access to this information... but I I don't particularly need some pieces of [Don:] To keep it. [Alan:] paper to keep. [Paul:] I think that's very well sa I mean if they can be put in a room or [Alan:] You know if the [Don:] In the [Alan:] if there's somewhere that that we can [Paul:] secure room for the staff to just to [Alan:] look at. [Paul:] look at and browse and take the information that they want rather than putting... what sounds to me a lot of work on some [Alan:] Because in actual fact I would I would be interested [Paul:] Mm. [Alan:] in not just the maths you see. [Paul:] Yeah, yes. [Angela:] Mm. [Alan:] I would I would want [Angela:] Mm. [Alan:] to nick the whole, I want to know English as well. [Don:] Like English, as well! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Paul:] Look what I'm saying [Angela:] What about the small staff room? [Terry:] secretary that could be got that way [Angela:] Can all the tables [Alan:] There is no need for you to do [Paul:] Right. [Alan:] an enormous amount [Paul:] Yeah. [Alan:] of work. [Terry:] Right, so in other words, we just take it out of the files, keep the... children information in the tutor's office and just extract what you want to put in somewhere else? [Rod:] But you would put it in alphabetical order [Terry:] Order. [Rod:] not form order because [Terry:] Not form. [Rod:] they'll obviously be moving about and tutors can't be faffing round every two minutes if something goes wrong. [Paul:] Have to be secure? [Rod:] It could go [Paul:] Yeah. [Rod:] mm [Andrew:] With respect, will these... people not be getting SIMS soon? [Terry:] They have, all our have got SIMS. [Andrew:] So won't this information be on SIMS and can it ju not just be transferred? [Rod:] I'm not sure Andrew. [Terry:] Erm [Rod:] I suppose it must be. [Andrew:] Wouldn't that be a better way of keeping anyway? [Terry:] Well, possibly. [Rod:] But what about the current situation? [Andrew:] Fair enough but... in the future so as not to have to [Don:] Why can't just simply pass it round people? [Paul:] These people won't be on si... the the... some of these primary schools are on? [Rod:] Well they are, yeah! [Terry:] Spring Gardens and have got SIMS. [Rod:] Everybody's had SIMS training now! [Terry:] Yeah, they've all got it, [Rod:] Er [Terry:] all our primary schools have got it. [Rod:] Bob was down with his secretary at [Paul:] Last time I went in everyone got called! [Terry:] Yep, they all that [Paul:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Yeah. [Paul:] You're kidding me! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] Extract it, but keep it in your room alphabetically... then if the maths department say, hey look, can we have a look at that during the [Terry:] Have it there for the first month or something. [Alan:] Yeah go [Terry:] Well as if, I mean I've got a draw in my filing cabinet, so as Marian that says [Rod:] What er that [Paul:] But filing cabinets tend to put people off. [Alan:] No! We we will ask, I mean it's not gonna be something that's vital [Don:] I've used a filing cabinet and it's put me off! [Paul:] Yeah. [Alan:] but at the minute [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] We no it'll go [Alan:] We will just ask you can we have a look at it for a few days. [Rod:] it'll go, it'll all go as it's individual sheets in a box file will it not? [Terry:] Mm. [Rod:] In a single box file with cap on. [Andrew:] Oh well a box, yes. [Rod:] It can go in a box file. [Paul:] I've got a box file. [Terry:] Ah. [Rod:] Can we have the box file, if you could bring that in? [Angela:] That's saves me bringing it. [Paul:] A box file yeah. [Rod:] That could be kept in tutor's room with [Don:] Oh. [Rod:] national curriculum... AT's on [Don:] Mm. [Rod:] it and it's [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] there [Alan:] Mhm, oh yeah! [Rod:] sheet on the top so if somebody takes it away [Paul:] Yeah. [Rod:] they [Angela:] Oh [Rod:] sign and leave the sheet. [Angela:] that's a good idea. [Alan:] Yeah. [Rod:] And [Don:] Here here! [Alan:] Yeah. [Rod:] But when you [Don:] Jolly good! [Rod:] when you did make the point about not having information I was concerned about that [Paul:] Oh yeah! [Rod:] it was an oversight [Paul:] Yeah. [Rod:] on my part... that didn't get passed down... and it is important that's. [Paul:] But we [Don:] Execrable! [Paul:] Yeah! I mean we were [Angela:] ! [Alan:] If we cheated about not having it back... you know, when parents came in June... but we don't need it immediately... you know, it doesn't have to be photocopied so that we all [Rod:] But the [Alan:] have it within the first term. [Rod:] but for the from a tutor's [Paul:] It is! [Rod:] point of view when the information's been com... when so it's coming in and being sorted... it is better that it's done at that particular time [Terry:] Oh yes otherwise, yeah [Rod:] rather than filing everything away then having [Terry:] Yeah. [Rod:] to stop and go to files and taking it out. It's one [Alan:] Yes [Rod:] of those jobs [Alan:] but [Rod:] you're better off doing [Alan:] but Terry has enough on his plate without having to... to separate them into maths and this that and the other and photocopy bits and pieces! Because we don't ne, we don't [Terry:] Yeah. [Alan:] them permanently, we [Terry:] Yeah. [Alan:] just need to look at them! [Terry:] That's right, yeah. Yeah. [Andrew:] The be all and end all! [Rod:] Right, mine is a [Alan:] Cos I will copy down anything that I think [Terry:] Yeah. [Alan:] is important! [Rod:] Angela? [Angela:] Yes! In the va, in the various schools that I've worked in I I've [Rod:] Right. [Angela:] made a list of all [Don:] Is that two? [Angela:] er, six... erm, I've made a list of all the different words that are used for crap on reports right? Special needs, cause for concern... inadequate, unsatisfactory, below average and weak [Don:] Unsatisfactory? [Angela:] and does, do any of them sort of leap out and you think yes, yes I love it? [Don:] No. [Rod:] In a sense I like below average, I'm concerned about getting the two damn words in, isn't that pathetic really! Below average is the best of [Angela:] Can't we just... back it along a bit so that Andrew can... you know [Andrew:] Certainly. [Rod:] Could you call it beverage? [Andrew:] Yes certainly... tha that can start there, finish there [Angela:] I thought it was er? [Andrew:] and they'll be loads of room to fit in [Angela:] Below average. [Don:] I shall leave poor in when I do it because I can't get it in! [Andrew:] That's fine. [Don:] Mm. [Andrew:] I I... I know a good doctor [Rod:] I take what you're saying. [Andrew:] by the way! [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] It's in the spirit of trying to be positive... I'm [Angela:] Aha [Rod:] Yeah. [Angela:] it's important, all those sort of things add up. [Don:] [LAUGHTER] [Terry:] Certain people missed that joke. [Paul:] No, I didn't miss it! [Rod:] Thank you very much [Paul:] I just ignored it! [Rod:] just gone a couple of minutes over, let's go and. [Don:] [LAUGHTER] Chose to ignore it []! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] What did you say []? [Don:] [LAUGHTER] []! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] Angela would you like to put a couple of kisses down. [Angela:] [kiss] [Rod:] Thank you very much. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] You tinkers! [Paul:] I'm backing it, am I backing it? [Angela:] I'm mi I'm not gonna stay here [Andrew:] You're backing it, you're backing it! [Angela:] listening to all this guff! [Rod:] What the hell am I doing now? [Angela:] God! [Paul:] Ask Terry, what are we doing [Terry:] Er [Paul:] next? [Terry:] we're doing controller [Angela:] Oh [Terry:] next, the programme [Rod:] Oh I see! It's quite intense this isn't it? [Paul:] What are doing? [Angela:] Yes it is. [Terry:] Well yes, you're doing something on your own aren't you? [Rod:] I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed this morning [Angela:] Have you gotta stay SATS now? [Rod:] well I was... not lost but... and then this afterno, it's quite dif [Paul:] Initiative. [Rod:] mentally draining. [Paul:] Initiative. [Angela:] I quite enjoy myself doing these. [Paul:] the word I'm trying to think of. [Angela:] report. [Rod:] Ah, but I get I get embarrassed because you people are so cruel! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] [Rod:] So rude to each other! [Angela:] [LAUGHTER] You little li

[speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] Well you took [speaker003:] apologize. But do you know who's following on from cos I'd take it upon myself Seems reasonable Ian. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Aye. Well just for the tape purposes I'm not actually from Northumberland. I'm... I'm from the north east... if that's good enough [speaker002:] You're from Darlington or somewhere. That's [speaker001:] Darlington yeah, on the [speaker003:] that's the deep south thought innit? [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Durham... Durham stroke Yorkshire border. So I'm not [LAUGHTER] Northumberland [].... Erm We haven't I don't think got minutes of the previous, I don't think we were keeping minutes of these meetings. [speaker003:] Mm. Erm... [speaker001:] But now that we're getting... or going to get presumably more involved in... union matters it might be advantageous if we could have a minute taker.... Er Lisa's there. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Don't know whether she's [speaker004:] I'm just putting a t-shirt on.... [speaker001:] A volunteer for... taking and compiling of the minutes and... producing of them. [speaker003:] Would it be handy er to, to reproduce to give to anybody who... either say NALGO or NUPE who was discussing them.... [speaker001:] Well I think it's going to be essential isn't it? We're going to be meeting more regularly in the next er few month and we want to know what... [speaker004:] I think, yeah [speaker001:] we discussed at the previous meeting. [speaker004:] Thr through you chairman I think also it's erm... it would, er apart from it being er... erm... a minute for, for us here... erm in relation to, you know, what we're looking to er to er... apply, er it also would be useful er in relation to the Regional Liaison Group... er of the tripartite er unison unions erm... so as to er actually circulate it to them and... that's, that tends to be made up of... of er... officers, full time officers... er and, and er the three... kingpins that's [LAUGHTER] [] Gill and er Phil as well so it er... it lets them know er [speaker003:] As a progress report [speaker004:] Yeah that's right. What, what, what, what you're, what we're doing erm and hopefully seek their support on, on some areas that literally falls within the Regional er Liaison Group's remit anyway. So [speaker001:] Does that mean you are volunteering Lisa? [speaker004:] Well I thought it was done like the army, army volunteer line so let's get on [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] let's get on with the business. [speaker001:] So you, you've now become secretary of the Northumberland Liaison Group. [speaker004:] Do I get paid? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No. You don't get any to do it. [speaker004:] Right. Okay. [speaker003:] Well you, you're on that... Regional Liaison Group in fact then [speaker004:] Yes I am, yeah. [speaker003:] Lisa so you're, you're the natural person [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Oh thank you Don, it's really [speaker001:] Good. [speaker004:] very [speaker001:] Well I think what we'll, she'll have to do erm what we'll have to do, I, I'll put this attendance... put an [speaker004:] I was just [speaker001:] attendance sheet [speaker004:] Yeah I've [speaker001:] You've got one have you? Good.... Er good, from memory of the previous meeting, there, one of the items I recall at er... I was left to do was contact the... our Education Officer erm namely Keith er to see if er... a one day seminar or a one day school or whatever you'd like to call it, er could be held prior to the, the ballot. Well I've had a word with Keith and he will be available and, and very willing to do a one day seminar of that nature... basically on... why unison... how we should go about... convincing the, the membership at large how we should er conduct the free ballot campaign as it were. Er he will be quite will willing and happy to do that on behalf of the three organizations... erm here in County Hall one day in the first week in October... well any day barring Thursday of that week.... So we're in your hands as to what date you would prefer to hold it... and who we would want to invite.... Erm probably a larger group than... those assembled here.... So [clears throat] I have undertook to do that, I've done it and er... I mean it's up to you as to which date you choose.... Erm we're talking about week commencing the... fifth, fifth of October. So it could either be fifth, sixth, seventh or ninth [speaker003:] What's the fifth? What day is it er... offhand? [speaker001:] Er Monday the fifth... of October.... But I would suggest er Wednesday the seventh.... I don't know whether anybody would disagree with that. [speaker003:] Of October? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Wednesday the seventh.... [speaker001:] Would that be... everybody happy with that date? [speaker004:] It's the feast of Yom or whatever way you pronounce it, [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Would you be having that at County Hall? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Because I think you'll have to check availabilities for accommodation in here... before you made a... decision because the [speaker001:] A firm date? Mm. [speaker003:] Yeah because the erm [LAUGHTER] it's very difficult [] to get rooms at the minute. [speaker001:] Right.... Well can, can we leave it that erm [speaker003:] Well I mean I'll check now if you want [speaker001:] Can you? [speaker003:] cos [speaker001:] Oh that, that would be [speaker003:] That would wouldn't it? [speaker001:] That would be very useful. [speaker004:] Chairman could I just ask as the minute taker to er clarify the, the remit of the er educational seminar? [speaker001:] Yeah. Er any day ba barring Thursday the eighth.... Er the remit [speaker003:] Wednesdays between now and Christmas. [speaker001:] I, I've just suggested Wednesday, it could be any day now [speaker002:] No I'm saying that it's, it's between now and Christmas Wednesdays, gotta keep them clear. [speaker001:] Oh that's right, aye, yeah. [speaker003:] So you're you're [speaker001:] That's right I'm a bit dodgy on a Wednesday, yeah. Anyway we'll see [speaker003:] See what date [speaker001:] see the availability of rooms and then we'll make a firm decision. The remit with regard to the er one day seminar, it was suggested at the last meeting er that it would be useful if the activists of the free union actually got together... held a one day seminar or training course... whatever terminology you like to put on it... er to actually educate ourselves on how we should be conducting the campaign basically. Erm how we would go about going outside into the workplaces in the various parts of the county convincing the members er to vote yes. Erm what kind of publicity material we require, and we'll come on to that later because we did elect a publicity sub... group I remember. Erm and how we would generally distribute all this stuff that we're going to get from the respective head offices, which is now filtering into our office, we've got leaflets... er car stickers... question and answer booklets, that kind of stuff. Er and obviously if we've got thousands of those coming to each three regional offices we've got to find some method of distributing them, we don't want them left in the office do we? So I think the, the whole idea of the, the seminar was to kind of basically get ourselves organized... but have it in a kind of er... seminar format.... Does that... [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker001:] that's about the remit isn't it? As... far as I recall from the last meeting.... Er that [speaker003:] I think the intention if I recall correctly was to give er stewards Yeah as the key people Aha [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] the the sort of arguments really Aha for, for er... cos they're, they're the key people that in of workplaces and getting the arguments across. Erm well our branch secretaries are, are the main people who pass on to stewards, who would in turn pass all this literature and things like that on, on the NUPE side [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] as far as we're concerned. We, we distributed cos we're lucky we've just got schools in and around you know? I mean the members who... [speaker001:] Mm. I think a as far as this group is concerned it will be up to each respective union, er I think of who they invited to that seminar. I think, I mean some unions might want the branch secretaries but some might want all branch officials, some might want all shop stewards or senior shop stewards or... convenors or whatever terminology we have, have in the respective unions for, for their positions. I mean I think as far as NUPE's concerned we would want our branch secretaries or a branch official... and probably senior... senior shop stewards I would think. [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] Wouldn't we? [speaker003:] ? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You know? [speaker001:] Er cos we're talking about, you see we're talking about nine branches aren't we in er Northumberland? Far flung... throughout the county as it were. So from our point of view, certainly from NUPE's point of view it would be a good thing.... In fact if we weren't doing it as a unison group we'd probably do it ourselves anyway because of the fact that we've got nine separate branches... and we'd want to have a bit of... erm common, common strategy if you like between the branches anyway. [speaker004:] Erm chairman could I just ask a question in relation to that? Er we're talking about er for example er NUPE have nine branches... erm i i is that all Local Authority, Health Service... er and the, the er... Educational [speaker003:] They're all [speaker001:] Well no we're just talking purely and simply about Local Authority here. [speaker004:] Just Local Authority? [speaker001:] Yeah. Right. I just wanted... to clarify that. Basically our branches are based on the district but... with a... slight variation or two, not... [LAUGHTER] exactly district []. [speaker003:] The only thing that's different with the branches is the health segment.... [speaker001:] The health?... Yeah, well we're not concerned with the health yeah. [speaker003:] I mean the health different completely but the rest, everybody's incorporated, each branch to what area they are.... Irrespective of what they work at. [speaker001:] Mm. I thi I think they're, the... the NALGO COHSE and NUPE health branches are making their own arrangements in Northumberland as far as I know. They're not part of this liaison group.... So they'll be doing something similar I should imagine... Er [speaker003:] We we're, we're, we'd be likely to invite all of our stewards really I think... from the point of view, the County Branch up to now with these meetings it's just been our County Branch... er that's been Mhm well the County Branch initiation... er but I think I'd be inclined also to spread that to our six district branches as well. Because our organization is... entirely employer based. Er you know, one in each of the six districts at the County Branch. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] And I, I, I'd be inclined from point of view to invite all of our stewards, not just in the county, but in all the district branches as well. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] To make it fair Can I make it fair Mr chairman that erm obviously with all ours being mainly caretakers, it would only be fair... to, to the actual caretaker... erm person who looks after caretaking, to only invite cos otherwise you've gotta get stand in for school which will cause problems. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Say four or five people come to that meeting [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] from one area, you'd have to find four or five caretakers, which is impossible. I mean [speaker001:] Ah well [speaker002:] schools have still got to be covered. [speaker001:] that'll be the next hurdle, I mean we haven't got to that hurdle. [speaker003:] No I'm just saying though it's [speaker001:] Nor the hurdle of getting paid release. I hoping we'll will get it [speaker003:] Aha. Well there's no problem [speaker001:] without any problem but you never know, do you? He's nodding, we, we might not get it.... [speaker003:] Can I ask question chairman? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] What is the situation with, I know they're private now, but er the situation with the River Authorities, the Water Authorities? Cos we have a tremendous lot of NUPE members. [speaker001:] Not er not so many now but it's [LAUGHTER] er we've still got members but I mean we... well we're... you know all about that you're the front [speaker003:] Yes I, yes I know all about that [speaker001:] front runner erm but I mean er all I know about from the NUPE point of view is that since the kind of... can we call it, semi, semi de-recognition? Or can we call it totally de-recognition? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm... er our membership slid somewhat and we haven't got a very big membership in er Water now. We've got a hundred members [speaker003:] Well er in the River's... we we've got a Rivers Authority Branch which is well a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty strong... that's not a Northumberland branch, it stretches from the... Tweed to the Humber I think but [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker003:] certainly the Tees. [speaker001:] So the, the Water membership wouldn't concern us here. [speaker003:] So it wouldn't involve us, that's right yeah. No I think we should stick to local government branches in the county of Northumberland. And you know I think if we can, that's a big enough task for us to take on here. Oh yes I appreciate but I were just wondering what... branches they were in, you've explained that, that. So it's like a national branch, forget it. [speaker001:] as far we're concerned this day's seminar that we're organizing, it will be purely and simply local government branches of the three organized regions in Northumberland. [speaker003:] That's it. [speaker001:] Is that? That's it, we won't widen it anywhere beyond that. And I think we... it was poin pointed out that we've got enough to do er sorting out the local government situation in Northumberland... and I don't disturb the other... other industries as it were. [speaker003:] Did we get a date? The only room available is this one on Friday the ninth. [speaker004:] Of October? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] Well it's, it's going to need th this size of room anyway I should imagine [speaker003:] Oh If everybody we invite turns up. [speaker001:] Mm. Friday the ninth. Everybody happy with that? [speaker003:] No, sorry can't make it. [speaker001:] Can't make Friday the ninth. [speaker003:] Friday the ninth.... [speaker001:] Well [speaker003:] At?... [speaker001:] At ten A M. [speaker003:] Ten A M.... [speaker001:] Ten till four?... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's a full day's work [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Ten till four Council Chamber... [speaker003:] What time, ten to what? [speaker001:] Ten A M [speaker003:] Till four. need access to the room before that? [speaker001:] Will we need access? [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Well only for the tutor to come in with his er... overhead projector or whatever he's got. [speaker003:] I'll try and get time for that.... [speaker001:] Would we need, we'd also need some kind of refreshments and er... we'll have to make a decision about lunch.... [speaker003:] Can I put in excellent restaurant that exists right here in County [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Yes exactly [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Er no I mean... normally when... most organizations when they call members together for a seminar, or a training course provide subsistence for lunch and... we usually have tea and coffee don't we? [speaker003:] Could I, could I just raise an issue [speaker001:] Are we going to have that? [speaker003:] erm in, I mean obviously there's gonna be some of our... some of our members I mean... if I identify one Ros from, from COHSE, but I daresay other, other... unions er have erm... have one or two members who actually work night duty.... And Ros was just saying I mean sh on that, on that Friday she's due to be in work on that Friday night and it comes on a day she'll... paid time off... aspect. Erm she's due in at work on that Friday night... er we've encountered problems before... whereby we've asked for I E the Friday night off because there's been an educational seminar on... on the day as it were er and that, that's been, that's been de er Refused. refused... as it were. So I mean [speaker001:] In the past it's been refused? [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] That, that might be a problem area particularly where we've got reps who work night [speaker001:] Well [speaker003:] who work nights. [speaker001:] it'll, it'll apply to nights and days that won't it? I mean we might find that we've got a problem with members generally getting paid [speaker003:] I'll be astonished if we get paid time off for this. Our, we haven't got a problem. As long as we can possibly get someone to replace them with. Yeah somebody trustworthy to replace them or... erm they will allow so many... in actually erm be off at one given time. I think yeah.... but erm I, I think chairman... in relation to the time off, I think erm... I think that's, that's one thing we need to... as area organizers, to actually try and er clarify I thought er as soon as possible. I thought this was supposed to be I thought this was at the last meeting? [speaker001:] No all, all that, all that was going to be done was to see about... as far as I'm aware, the feasibility of get getting one of the Education Officers and one of the [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker001:] to actually put a course on. Details of... when and where will be discussed at the next meeting as far as I [speaker003:] Ah in my notes here I've got paid leave [speaker001:] Oh [speaker003:] But there, there is an agreement actually er with employers stating that they, they will give time off for... erm that's what [speaker001:] Training courses. [speaker003:] But for training courses and, and, and meetings. Er they recognize the unions so... the,the,they there is an agreement Yeah. [speaker001:] Well, well i if [speaker003:] Yeah but if they're if they're, if they're at work during that period of time Aha? my argument is I'm not at work between the hours of ten to four. [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] No that's a point. I start work at night [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] and I'll be... you won't be qualified for paid time off. Well what's, what's your gaffer like? Is he... sympathetic or is he...? [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well th they follow the rules laid down by er Mm [speaker001:] I mean it, we may find yet, we don't know we haven't applied, we, cos... the reason that we haven't applied cos we didn't know until today exactly who we were going to invite and... when we were going to hold it... er so it would be ludicrous to apply for time off when you didn't even know the date you were holding it and who you were going to invite. Erm... so, and we will do that now but I mean it may transpire that the employer might say no to paid time off... er for the people who are on days as, as well as [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker001:] Er and I would guess then we would have to switch it to a, a Saturday. If, I mean if we can only, if we can only invite the, the people that are he I mean the, they allow us release for this type of meeting mind you. So I can't see why they shouldn't allow [speaker003:] But er er sorry I mean I'm, I don't deliberately want to labour the point in relation to the night staff, right? But then the same problem applies because you'll have had the night staff working all day Friday night, come off duty about seven, eight o'clock in the morning. Erm... [LAUGHTER] they're gonna be bushed Yeah. [speaker001:] Well I [speaker003:] to say the least. [speaker001:] well personally I've, I've never had a problem getting members who are on nights their night off to go on a training course, never. [speaker003:] Well all I'm saying is mr chairman is [speaker001:] Because they've always said it's exactly the same as a day worker and yes you have either the shift off before... the night shift off before you go on the course or the one after. [speaker003:] I think with regard to er I mean the, the general rule of things with regard to educational er... issues and time off for them, erm... they tend to be let's say reasonable... er about it... er but that's been literally on educational issues. I think the subject matter of this seminar is slightly away from that and therefore we may... we may find some er some er problems in that. I mean then we might not. All, all I'm saying is that we need to, before we literally start dotting I's and crossing T's in any literal sense is to sussed out whether... that's gonna, whether they're going to be receptive to the subject matter. I can't see the problem here. You see the, the employees... recognize the unions, they ask, they join the unions right? And wh whether it's NUPE, COHSE erm erm NALGO... it is a union... unison which will be one if it, if it comes about. Now if they recognize the unions it doesn't matter which one it is, they didn't erm differentiate between any unions do they? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] I mean they recognize COHSE, they recognize NUPE... NALGO... they've got to recognize unison. Because it's, it's the [speaker001:] I think, I think the point Ronnie was making before was that er there is an agreement for shop stewards to have paid release to attend training courses. That is agreed isn't it? [speaker003:] Aye. Aye. [speaker001:] Somebody nodded and s that way and said it wasn't agreed but er it is actually... anybody who's going on a bona fide training course organized by their respective union, the T U C... er a local college or whatever, a shop, a shop registered shop steward does get paid release for that er training. So what we've got to say to the County Council I would suggest is that this is a training course similar to those we always got release for... branch officials and shop stewards so why should you turn your nose up at this training course? [speaker003:] I think in the past the, the response from the County Council would be that it wasn't directly related to industrial relations. [sigh] Because we, we had this when, when we carried out a political fund ballot erm and we asked for time off for stewards to go and talk to members and we asked for time off for a seminar, for a one day seminar. And which we, we weren't granted the time off, we were granted time off without pay but not paid leave.... [speaker001:] Yeah. Well if we were granted time off without pay then, which is, this is a distinct possibility yeah, er would the respective unions present here be reimbursing their members for loss of earnings?... [speaker003:] Well it's, it's for their benefit... in, in the long run. I mean we're not doing it for our own good. [LAUGHTER] Are we? [speaker001:] Would do that? [speaker003:] I, I s I can't, I can't make that decision. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] I'd have to, I'd have to erm... I'd have to raise it er and I think to be quite honest... the er... I mean fortunately as I said earlier on Mr chairman there is a Regional Liaison Group meeting on, on Monday... er and I have a captive audience of three budget holders, Doug... Gill and Phil, erm and raise this with them. Er and obviously we'll, we'll... we'll get the response erm a a as it were but erm... that's something I couldn't, I couldn't answer at this particular time. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] It's a last resort but then again we might not need it but if we do... [speaker001:] Well it looks as if what we're doing now, we're having a discussion, we're like counting chickens before they're hatched, we haven't erm actually had a refusal. We haven't even applied yet er for, for release. Er we've got one month in which to do it... basically... erm so what I would suggest is that the officers of the three unions represented here... apply for paid release first of all... to or, presumably it will be Geoff the Chief Personnel Officer.... Erm... whether we want to add something on to the agenda that would make it more acceptable to them like... health and safety or... whatever. And that [speaker003:] Local government finances [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] one of getting round er the problem we seem to have.... You know you can, you can work a bit of a flanker and put something on that's more or less acceptable to them. We could say, we could entitle it industrial relations in Northumberland? [speaker003:] Yeah. Changes in their industrial relation's seat in the county. Changes. Mm, changes Changes. I think with regard to that Mr chairman if, if, if local representatives [speaker001:] There's a hand up at [speaker003:] are going to actually apply, sorry [speaker001:] there's a ha hand up at the back. [speaker003:] Yeah I mean you, you could do that. I mean I, I, I think that's a good tactical ploy even though it's tongue in cheek. The only other difficulty that you've, you've got a need to know what sort of numbers we're talking about. I mean are you talking about a hundred and fifty? Which is I think the capacity of this room. No Because it's all going to come out of their budget isn't it? It's, I mean they're, okay you're applying from three different standpoints but it's coming out of one... well budgetholder's erm kitty. I think, you know, you say you've got a month, I think you're gonna need also to try and find out from your membership as to whether in fact they're prepared to turn up on a Saturday as well. Because I think you could, you could come back here in three weeks time and find that you, you've got, you're not gonna get time off on a Friday, you haven't got enough and then you're going to have to start all over again. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Ah. So I think you've, both those questions have gotta be addressed by the, the unions that the s, that the, the second one in terms of turning up on a Saturday. Mr Chairman the, certainly with they'd still have a problem with... a Friday night. time off.... Because if you work Friday night you know they're not going to come in on [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] the Saturday are they? Realistically are we looking at Sunday? Rather than Saturday. Well there's, no I mean surely the same will apply on a Sunday? I mean night workers situation So Friday night's not your normal [speaker001:] I don't think we'd get many members turning up on Sunday. [speaker003:] No. Well let's stick to Friday then and let's [speaker001:] Well let's let's [speaker003:] chairman. Two things. Firstly... NUPE has never had difficulty with Northumberland County Council getting time off... for anyone. [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] In all the years, and I've been it's secretary now for fifteen years and I haven't had any trouble. And neither has my stewards. Dennis years ago did a deal with... by we had so many days a year and any extra you applied for them, there was never any trouble. And the second issue is... in my experience if you have a seven hour on a Saturday... or a Sunday you get a poor turn out. You get no-one Always been the same, so if we're gonna do this, let's do it right, let's have it through the week. [speaker001:] Yeah.... I think, I think yes, I think the consensus is that we hold it on Friday the ninth erm and we're going to apply, the three full time officers will apply for those in their organization that they want to attend, apply for paid release. The three officers will agree the terminology of... the request. You know, industrial relations or whatever... is going to be on the agenda. Er it's not just a unison liaison... seminar. Er we, we'll agree that between the three of us and make sure we have the exact wording, cos we wouldn't want three... three subjects would we? [speaker003:] Well Just, can I just remind you that the request for paid time will need to go to seven Authorities in the county.... [speaker001:] They couldn't go to central personnel? [speaker003:] No, no. There are six district councils in the county and we're proposing to invite our own [speaker001:] Oh yes district councils, oh yes. [speaker003:] district branches to, to send people as well. Er... I, I think the, the way the request is presented to Northumberland might be different to the way it's presented in or Tynedale or somewhere like that. Er I'd prefer to tailor it maybe to er suit each employer and to ask permission from er the other six branches as well first. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Mm.... Well can we [speaker003:] But er er going beyond that, I think it would be wise for us to assume that we will not get paid time off for this even if we do attempt to disguise it as something else. And you know I'd prefer not to do that. I, I think that we should assume that we would not get paid time. Er I think we should also assume that the regional er budgetholders will not make a contribution to any costs we might incur cos I don't think any budget they'll have will be intended to cater for er you know, paying people's wages for them getting unpaid time off. I think it will be intended for things other than that.... And as somebody mentioned earlier, again I think it would be wise to, was it Steve? To, to make contingency plans... to hold it on... a day when we don't need the cooperation of the employers in terms of time off [speaker001:] Er are we all agreed then we'll put down that there's a third [speaker003:] Can I just point out though you see... this, the difference between NUPE and NALGO and that, we haven't got a problem. [speaker001:] With time off? [speaker003:] We definitely have not got a problem. Cos we, we will get it, we know we will cos it's an agreement you see. Your only problem it seems is... erm you're not sure whether you're gonna get paid or time off or not. You know, all this is... I mean we've got a month actually which is a good thing but erm... surely you must have some sort of agreements with the union and your and We have we have an agreement relating to time off and time off with pay. Mhm. [speaker002:] And our agreement does not provide us for time off with pay for an event such as this. [speaker003:] And yet they recognize unions and they ask you to apply your, er to yourself. And you're trying to amalgamate all the unions together to make it easier for them. They're not prepared to... er to make allowances for that? disgraceful. The agreements that we have will not provide us with time off with pay for this purpose. Well I appreciate what you're saying but your agreement may be different from ours Aye aye but well it is erm [speaker001:] Right. So I think we seem to be agreed that there, we'll attempt to hold a seminar on Friday the ninth here in this Council chamber. Each official will apply for time off their me members that they wish to attend. Er if we find that we get a, a, a no answer from the employer in terms of paid release, er the first reserve date will be Saturday the tenth and we'll switch it to Saturday if we... if we can leave it in the hands of the three officers to get together on that without calling another meeting of the group, I think might be better. [speaker003:] just to make you again so it's not just the counties that I'll need to ask [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker003:] it's the other six district councils as well. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker003:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] So it's going to be erm... you might only get a week's notice if it's going to be switched to the Saturday then I would guess. Cos it's gonna be three weeks before I get the replies from some of them isn't it? [speaker003:] There is another small point. Even though the county may say that staff can have paid release, governors at schools can say no. And there's nothing the county can say about it.... [speaker001:] Oh a school out on it's [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] oh under L M S? [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] That's individuals, yeah.... individual school management isn't it? [speaker003:] Yes. But in our, our circumstances erm they wouldn't say no because obviously they're covered. There's somebody in there [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] doing the job I would be doing. I mean I'm not saying that... would happen in every school cos they, they wouldn't, they wouldn't get it anyway. I've never been to the head, I've never been to the governors. know and she says okay Ron, yeah. No but caretakers at the moment are in a different position. Mm, there's too many. The rest of the staff are still under the er auspices of the governing body [speaker001:] Can you switch it off? Are you on or off? Oh. [speaker003:] Why don't we leave this? You know I think we've gone over it long enough and leave it to see the er [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] leave the three officers to sort it out [speaker001:] Anyway I don't think we, it's, we don't get any, anywhere debating the, the why's and wherefore's. I mean we haven't actually had a knock back, we haven't actually put the request in yet so if we can proceed on that format... of applying [speaker003:] Yes that's what we're saying Mr chairman, we, we needed to, we, particularly would Tentatively test the water on that? [speaker001:] Yeah.... Er this week. Tentatively. [speaker003:] I think it would have to be some time this week. [speaker001:] Yes. Right. [speaker003:] Chairman could I also mention that the county council has a conference centre down in Havstock Park which I think is probably bigger er than this particular room... erm may well also have catering facilities. The other aspect is of course catering facilities here on a Saturday may not be the same as what they are... during the week. [speaker001:] Yeah. That's true. [speaker003:] It may involve additional cost if you're going to have the er chefs coming in... for a Saturday. [speaker001:] Specifically yeah.... That, that's a good suggestion. So, I think what you're suggesting, if we, if we are moving it to Saturday which er... is likely erm we could switch the venue to Havstock Park But [speaker003:] I'm not suggesting you know the switch just because of the weekend, I'm suggesting it may be bigger. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It may accommodate more people. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Er... facilities er exist for parking and so on and the only thing is, er I'm talking about catering in the sense of a Saturday whether it's here or there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Er I don't know what the catering facilities are on, on, on a weekend.... In either location. [speaker001:] Yes. Yes. [speaker003:] Er I mean I, I mean have we really thought this through because er if we're an anticipating having hundred, hundred and fifty people here... which I suppose is of course about what we would hope for, the response that NUPE... er as you know they would need to actually achieve the yes vote, I mean we need this sort of room full... er wouldn't it not be more sensible to split up between co or not, would it not be normal for the tutor to expect the group to split up... to address specific areas like, I don't know, Labour Party membership, erm... finance, I don't know, whatever [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] Now you've got a real problem here because you just... er you know that this is the only room available. There's no other committee room available on that Friday. Er admittedly they'll all be available on the Saturday... but perhaps we would need, you know, we've perhaps a little bit more [LAUGHTER] more work to be done. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] And that would be a s severe limitation... if you're gonna have, you know, hundred, hundred and, hundred to hundred and fifty people in here from ten to four... I would [cough] the suggestion you're not gonna get the benefit that... you know those who not particularly wanna come forward or... those of us who shout our mouths off... will get the eye of the chairman [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] but there are others who won't. [speaker001:] Yeah er very good point that, yeah. I... I hadn't thought of that but er I mean it will be the group kind of... er lecturing I mean it won't be lecturing to er a full meeting all day. So on that basis maybe Havstock Park would be a better venue... cos there would be... rooms adjacent I, I should imagine, I haven't been in to Havstock Park. Is there? Rooms adjacent to the main [speaker003:] So I'm lead to believe, I haven't been to I've been to it. Yes there are plenty of rooms. [speaker001:] And it would be more fitting for group work would it? [speaker003:] Yes I think so. And they do catering there. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] But whether they do it on a Saturday I don't know.... [speaker001:] Right. Right, well... we're not there's nothing firmed up [LAUGHTER] as it were. Well it could, it could be [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [] [speaker001:] either the ninth or the tenth, it could be held here it could be held at Havstock Park. We might get paid release we might not... erm and I think we're gonna have to leave it and make some further enquiries and get back. [speaker003:] And the commercial services group here are hugely expensive for putting on Saturday lunches. [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker003:] We may be better getting outside caterers. [speaker001:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER]... Oh dear. Right I think we'll [speaker003:] They are hugely expensive [speaker001:] Yeah. We'll leave it, we'll leave it at that. I mean there's nothing firmed up but... [speaker003:] Yeah two obviously we, we, we... we do need to, to clarify before the end of this week is, one is in relation to the paid time off... a and two is the... accessibility stroke suitability of the particular venue. Er and that also envelops the would it be a Friday or would it be a Saturday set up. I think that, those need to be clarified by... I would say, I'm saying well it's Tuesday today, definitely by the end of this week. [speaker001:] Mm.... Right [speaker003:] Does it have to be in? [speaker001:] Mm? [speaker003:] Does it have to be in? Because for some people it's as easy to get into Newcastle as it is into.... [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It's a six and two threes we've had a number of times. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah. I think that... I don't mind [speaker003:] I think better for parking Well check check all the options open to us and then [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Well it's just, it's just something to bear in mind. [speaker001:] Er yeah. I think, I think I just had the feeling that the Northumberland Liaison Group yeah meeting in Northumberland you know? More... more fitting. Erm I mean we'll put that down as a third reserve. If we can't get Havstock Park we'll move [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] We'll be on that boat up and down the River Tyne at the finish, that's were we'll end up I think. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now the, the other thing I recall from the previous meeting, Rod seems to have minutes I think, well he was looking at them before. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Yeah [LAUGHTER]. Erm was that we did elect, I recall, a local publicity group, one representative from each union didn't we? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Has the group met yet? [speaker003:] Well we were supposed to meet after the last meeting which was cancelled. Yes that's right. [speaker001:] Oh. [speaker003:] That was cancelled because of the holidays. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] It was too close. So we haven't actually met yet. [speaker001:] Right. So I mean I think what we envisaged though was that the local publicity group erm would meet and see if the... well first of all I suppose was there a, a necessity having seen what we've got from national level er... necessity to produce a kind of newsletter, a joint... unison newsletter... specific to Northumberland, that's what the... group was going to have a look at wasn't it? So probably we can widen it out and have a discussion here this morning... now that we have seen some if not all of the stuff that's coming from the respective head offices. Would it be necessary and would we want... er to supplement that with something No with Northumberland... in it or on it. You know like a Northumberland type newsletter from the three organizations. [speaker003:] Well I, I think there is still some, quite a number of questions that members are asking. As the ballot papers are going out on the twenty sixth? Mhm. Distribution of ballot papers... on the twenty sixth of October, about subscription. And nobody seems to be, give us any answer... to that. [speaker001:] Subscription level? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Contributions, yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Well [speaker003:] Johnny John? John. [speaker001:] Mm.... John? [speaker003:] no he's not here, I think he's on the sick. [speaker001:] He's not... here? [speaker003:] I think he's on the sick. [speaker001:] Oh.... Er I think that, that... my recollection of the last meeting was that if we could just knock together a Northumberland newsletter... a unison newsletter that's quite clearly coming from the three organizations that represent the membership in Northumberland it would be better than th this national stuff has one union on it, as I see it at the moment. I haven't seen anything that all three... erm may maybe that's yet to come. Erm but... I mean there's nothing in, in that that we get from national level that has anything at all appertaining to Northumberland in it or on it, has it? And I think that that's what we were envisaging. We needed something to go round the various workplaces in Northumberland that actually appertained a bit more to Northumberland than the stuff we're going to get from national level. And from the branches of NALGO, NUPE and COHSE within Northumberland had produced it... under this kind of joint format. So, I mean what I would suggest is... er I don't know is John... anticipated to be off for some time do you think? [speaker003:] I don't really, he was o he went off on Friday. [speaker001:] Right.... Erm... wh what I would suggest is the three that are on the group and if John's going to be off maybe somebody else from NALGO would, would er step in to the group, get together over the next two weeks or so and er try to... jointly produce a Northumberland newsletter? I think that's... would be the only call on the publicity group really, cos we'll have enough, enough stuff from national level for the rest of the distribution won't we?... I mean correct me if I'm wrong, that's the way I look at it. [speaker003:] I've drawn that up from the information I was given, I don't know whether... could you pass that on to ... But again the u the information is... is erm needs to be updated.... [speaker001:] These are all the same, we hand them round can we? [speaker003:] No that's, there are just [speaker001:] Oh they're all different. [speaker003:] three sets because [speaker001:] Oh, oh yeah.... [speaker003:] But I, I didn't know whether that was something that you were looking for, something more local.... [speaker001:] Well I like that on the bottom. COHSE, NALGO, NUPE working together in Northumberland. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] That's good. [speaker003:] It personalizes it. Yes er yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah that's exactly what... we're looking for isn't it?... Very good these, yeah.... Unfortunately everybody hasn't got one.... Oh we've got [speaker003:] I can alter them quite easily you see [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. Erm... have we got the facility [speaker003:] I, I've got the I, I do, I've got a desktop publishing [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] package at home you see. [speaker001:] I'm just thinking for this meeting if we could photocopy some [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker001:] everybody can have a look at them. Any... we've lost our secretary. [speaker003:] That would be a start.... I isn't there a danger of us becoming a committee, a publicity committee you know? I'd hate to try and work out a leaflet in a committee this size. Impossibility. [speaker001:] Oh yeah n no we're just more or less [speaker003:] Oh I see [speaker001:] for information today [speaker003:] just for information, right. [speaker001:] I mean one member of the committee has produced something which I rather think you might all like to have a look at it. As opposed to just three of us looking at it. [speaker003:] Yes chair in, in relation to publicity I mean th there's one sole objective... and that's in relation to the ballot concerning unison. Mm. And I think if we concentrated on that, otherwise even with the publicity group, you'd end up with them saying well what [LAUGHTER] Yes, yes [] what use can we put all this Yes. you know? And it, it becomes... you'd never actually get the thing printed and you'd never actually get the thing distributed because you, you, you're wondering what to put in, what not to put in as it were and sticking to the specifics er... at least it's getting... it's getting something out and I don't, personally I don't see any, any real problem in personalizing it further and as much to indicate, right, without obvious prejudice to the new union erm to indicate er... in, in some... general or specific sense, if that doesn't sound like sort of like contradictory, on... on the, the, the betterment of, of representation for members within, within Northumberland come unison. You know, bring that in as, as Mary's put in, in this stuff there. She's talking about improved representation and personalize that in relation to the Northumberland area, which wouldn't contradict what, whatever flows from structures and branch structures in the transitional period... er which is you know... good six months to a, a, a year away as it were. Yes but I've got a thousand members in my, I'm district secretary, I've got a thousand members at least [speaker001:] Mhm? [speaker003:] who don't really know what unison is. Yes well yes it's They'll just think it's a pair of boots... er haven't got a clue what, what unison is or what it's gon... they know they're gonna try and amalgamate the unions to strengthen... that's what I never managed to get through. Very good Mary. But they're not prepared to, to leave NUPE, let go of something... you know unless it's better than what... they've had. And the past few years have been good years of course Erm since we've got we, we are... on top of the world. You know erm we've recruited more, we've... we've enjoyed it more. Erm and they're, they're more inclined to listen shop stewards and believe the lies we tell them, you know? And a lot of kids just think oh... erm well they're not... full lies but they're... it will be, will be better cos we don't even know ourselves do we? Can you erase the lies from the [LAUGHTER] tape [] [LAUGHTER] I, I mean in some respects this, this, this is very good Mary. I mean I th I think in some respects Some of it's, it's... some of it is out of date. Yeah. Yes. Yeah well I, I think er of more value would be... just to people here present going away, and between now and the seminar on the eighth or ninth... is actually trying to get the negatives. Because if we actually can address th those real concerns, you know, you know... the point that brother just made about why should he leave you to join unison... try and crystallize that out in a Northumberland way, if that's possible, it may not be, it may be difficult on, on a short punchy A five leaflet... it will probably service because I mean it c it can be photocopied, there's nothing wonderful, I mean it doesn't have to be sort of the most wonderful printing techniques and giving them desktop publishing. All, all, all I was doing there Steven Yeah was to try to see how things could be reduced and enlarged. Right, right, yeah that's fine. But I mean I think if we can actually feed some information through on that, on that weekend Yeah that Friday or that Saturday yeah that could be as valu those issues which have come from members could be addressed... I think we might achieve what we're after.... You know things like uppermost in people's minds, I don't know whether... I suppose this question of fees might still be, I don't know, it depends what the national executive say, but I mean I think it's those issues and the fact we can respond quickly... is, will be an advantage. I mean then, we've then have what, two weeks to produce a leaflet which... which should be quite easy to achieve. Well yes because thanks, thanks... to Mary we've got the erm... we've got a, a good backcloth Mm. which just would need to be... you know, as I call it, personalized a little bit more. Erm you know, hopefully by that time will be clarified. But we could easily It's it's something that's better than nothing you know, er briefly er a amend er on to using this as a backcloth as it were. So mai you, you're main, you're main work's actually done, isn't it? Aye I think we've go... I think we've got to get through to the members actually that together as a, we're gonna be a cohesive force for the benefit of the members. Cos let's face it, the [speaker002:] the, the authorities are, or the employers, are gonna gain from the fact that we're gonna be... a new union that at first we're gonna be trying you know to... you know you've got to walk before you run, haven't we? They're gonna gain from that or they're gonna be seeing that they think they gain from that and all you've gotta get over to the members... we're gonna be a cohesive force and that... we're going, we are going to fight some day together for them. [speaker003:] You see Donny suggested at that last meeting that we had just small leaflets that we could give to all members.... You know... the publicity from us would be like a small... I don't know what size, just a small leaflet. A five. A five... that you can give to each individual member.... Well that would be better I think, this approach wouldn't it? But the point is at the end of the day they've got to be approached in a... just giving them a bit of paper Right to run away. I think, I to be quite honest, correct me if I'm wrong, with regard to the publicity group, that the publicity group really was to get something out that was going to act as an icebreaker... to the members. I mean you identify ones who... never heard the word [cough] etcetera. Right erm... now that's understandable... er even, even members who get stuff posted directly such as, you know, we've had a direct mailing system for quite a few years now, when you meet them you say what about... I don't know what you're talking about? And you know they've had the book! yeah. You know I mean you... er er it's al I, I think the same would happen if you put a five note in... inside it would get thrown out with the rubbish but erm... the thing is that obviously some, some... early day, if one can say [LAUGHTER] in inverted commas [LAUGHTER] early day publicity [] erm... from the Northumberland side of things... could a and I mean my view when, when Ros was telling me what happened at the last meeting erm... was that was gonna be acting as an icebreaker... as opposed waiting till the last minute somebody's gonna and they think... [LAUGHTER] erm as it were,a and build up from, from that because there's obviously gonna be one or two other things coming directly from national level. Not a lot, but one or two things direct from national level. Er but... as I say if, if we can do it on a personalized basis er personalized geographic basis, it gives it more identity er then what, what you produced certainly i is halfway there to the issues that Steve mentioned... earlier on. We could slot in... our ag our agreed words erm... that wouldn't, wouldn't have to wait till the Regional Liaison Group met because we've just got the three kingp king kingpins hopefully er and, and try and er you know circumvent that. You see most of us er in the union have got a, like a branch meeting next Wednesday right? It's an ideal opportunity to get people, right? Or you know whatever turns up. I'll pass on this information I've received which I normally do. Then I'll call a district meeting where I'll get other branches together... erm shop stewards and that, and I'll pass this information, I've let them know there's such a thing as. I've let them know it's, it's going ahead erm and that the vote is coming off. But it's up to us now to sweeten it before the actual vote otherwise they're just gonna throw their ballot papers away, they're not even gonna bother voting. And the ones that do that voting against. Cos that would, that would be the hard part Mm? the hard part would be sweeping up after Mhm because if you have... a group of workers, or individual workers who are immediately faced with a steep rise in contributions Oh yeah without any tangible benefit starting at the same day... that is your, that is your problem. But you see the, the way we, the way I look it see, the way we've been cut and slashed, and I'm not just talking about high schools and first schools or anything right... we've been destroyed, we've been literally... thumped into the deck. And the union, I mean I'm not... blaming just NUPE I mean every union but we seem to have stood still and nothing's happened and th and, and the m, and the members are actually sick of their lies about what, what am I paying all this money for then? Now I would approach it on the lines of... here's your opportunity, it's not just erm NUPE mind, NALGO's joining... er COHSE's joining and we're gonna be one hell of a force. had one at a time to contend with before. Now it's got the three and we're batting for each other, you know playing on the same side. Erm conditions cannot get worse now, they'll only get better. And that's the way to look at it, that's the way to put it to them. And to the normal layman... that sounds better than not say nothing at all. Now you can say to them well we're gonna be struggling we we well we must be, we've got three voices. will be. We will be bigger, we will be stronger. Well that's it, you've got to be def aha Therefore we will in future be able to negotiate better. But it's always will, will, will in advance but you're asking them immediately for more money. Well no not er not in the cases of er, Lisa mentioned there, because quite honestly some of them will be paying less especially Some will yeah but I'm thinking about the people who A lot of your caretakers might be Well a caretaker gets a hundred and ten pound a week, he's not gonna pay more than a hundred and twenty one pence which he's paying now. And I mean to say that's... in all honestly, that's what'll happen, they'll pay less... I should imagine. Can't imagine somebody on a hundred and ten that will be paying more than a hundred and twenty one pence. I mean I can understand the point of will, will, will Mhm. you know etce but you... erm... you, you, you can't use the word now, now, now. It's, it's the same in the majority er of, of... major issues in life like er... erm... like when you get married... you're promising I will [LAUGHTER] always [] love... drop the honour er [LAUGHTER] and it's, it's the same at a general election or local election, you know, when we get into power we will. So you, you, you... I, I know what you're saying but I mean it's, it's plain I mean is it Ian? Is it Ian? Ian, yeah. Ian said that... judging from the basis of the that some of the nurses there are gonna be paying a hundred and twenty percent more, whatever it was, in contributions. That's based on each individual er at the, at the moment. Right, good. H how would you go to somebody like that and say well yeah... we, we'll be able to negotiate for you better in the future and... we might be able to get more... er be better conditions of service than you've got now but as of now you're gonna be paying this much more in contributions. You haven't anything tangible to give them back in return on the extra money, straight away. This is gonna be the hard part, to get it You see you're... you're all talking about contributions... in or an ability to pay... but based on what? Where, there has to be a starting figure... and it's never come out. And I'm asked every... well not say every day of the week but most weeks I'm asked somewhere well where are you gonna start from? Are you gonna take the figure starting from one twenty and take it up from there and down from there? Or...? There's nobody. Er... quite right, the people want to know. This is what we're talking about, forget about all, everything else, that's basically want to know. Plus they want to know how the branches is gonna operate. Nobody's said how the branches is gonna operate. Are the branches gonna remain the same way, the same set up? They want to know. And [LAUGHTER] they don't get the answers. And this is gonna a big no. natural and I'm and I never was, but I like to know what I'm voting for and I like to tell the people who I'm responsible for what they are voting for. And so far it's. I think that [speaker001:] Yeah I think [speaker003:] we're just running round in circles. [speaker001:] Yeah I think on the er i it isn't for us here to decide the level of contributions. Er and we... I thought we'd agreed earlier [speaker003:] [cough] [speaker001:] we are going to get from the three national executives erm... a list of what the contributions are going to be. It's in their hands at the moment er as far as I know they are going to let us know that in the very near future, certainly long before the ballot papers are actually distributed to members. So we will know what the contribution levels are going to be. It is er as I see it they've gone back to the drawing board with where the bands are actually... how it's banded. And I, I recall seeing the lowest contribution I think was fifty pence, wasn't it?... You know for a part time worker on on low earnings. What... ranges from fifty pence to two pound fifty... a week. That's, that's what they were weren't they? [speaker003:] Well they were sort of like rough, rough figures given in relation to er You s you see you cannot deal with rough pending discussions but the whole thing Mr chairman... really hasn't erm hasn't been decided to you know... er a few colleagues point er... I mean there's nothing we can... actually start and... you can put pencil to paper on... at the present time. Erm... I think what we have to do in particular as, as, as... full time officers is, is probably try and er and erm chase things up although they they're within the realms of the respo the respective LEC's but to try and make sure that... they do get some clearer, if not confirmed, insight into re in relation to the contribution aspect. Erm... so as we could possibly erm lend it to er a pending news... newssheet that, that would come out in relation to Northumberland. I think and that really is about as much as any of us can say. I mean we could all spend all day discussing that particular issue but up until the decision... is made and which road they're gonna go down... we do know it's gonna be banding... but on what... on what basis is it gonna be? [speaker001:] That's the thing. [speaker003:] You know we, we, we could spend, we could spend a month... I know there's a lot of figures floating around No, no you know and various things like that but... none of them actually mean any... concrete decision on that. [speaker001:] Mm. Well I think if, yes? [speaker003:] As important as the, the erm subscriptions in the new union will be, I think we need to also address the fact that we are saying... we're gonna fall for members aren't we? We can't say now, now, now we can give you these new services and we can't say we will give you the services as, as we're just promising. I think we're gonna have, we've all got and face the fact that we've gotta give them increased union activity before the ballot. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker003:] To, to high, to give them high profile anyway. Cos you know [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I mean can anybody answer that? I don't know and I'm Er Phoebe er [speaker001:] Who? [speaker003:] It's Phoebe? The thing is yes, we we've got a ballot out on, on a pay increase.... Now, now we actually here and we've only got erm a short time to get round these people, very very short time, erm and get this back in... otherwise the ballot will go... against... or for... with no members voting. Now we've got to race against time again, this is not just happening in NUPE it's happened all over and it's gonna... it's happening in this union before it starts. The protection clause will. There's nice little things like that, sick... pay... er major breakthrough and all this. You know that this is telling the members, it's reassuring the members before they sign it, you wanna accept that pay rise or not. It's a pittance, four percent... but you've got to try to get them to accept... training and and consultation. And it's exactly the same with joining this, in fact it's more important... joining this union... as it is a different union altogether. It's more important than just one, one year's pay rise. It's your future. It's your defence. [speaker001:] Mm I think er what this stuff that I'm er knocking together here into a pack for each of you... is a step in the right direction, I think Mary's done a, a good job here on this er [speaker003:] But some of it's out of date, you know. Yes but it's a start. It's a start. [speaker001:] Yeah. I mean this is exactly the, the type of material that we, we're going to need to put out in Northumberland. I mean p and if every leaflet I think has that slogan on... COHSE NALGO and NUPE working together in Northumberland, that gets the message across to the members. You'll be, you'll be getting a copy of this in, in the minute. [speaker003:] Can, can we... Mr chairman can we not suggest erm the fact that, to the three executives, that the subscription stay the same for three or six month period until unison and members are balloted on subscriptions. er everybody stays as they are for three or six months. Well we, we can't because the thing is the, the national decision... has been made and within the final report to, to all the conferences this year. Erm... and it's been accepted and endorsed by three conferences, right? So it's too late. I mean I don't know, I mean somebody er... our respective conferences could have raised that er and the debate's gone ahead and it's been voted on and said no, I mean I don't know. Erm but it's too late for that. I it's too late for that. I think in addition to that erm well I wouldn't want to... say too much other than in that respect it would erm... it would reduce representation to mem members... I would say by about forty percent at the present time... before structures etcetera etcetera were sorted out. I mean I may have been being a bit naive... as a general sort of, just a rep within NALGO, I'm not... I'm not, although I've had all the publicity, and yes I'm, sometimes you do not the course. And they're all genuinely things apology or or whatever reason, there are things that I genuinely don't know. That's what I think. And I think you've gotta address my doubts because if I have doubts how am I going to stand in front of members and say... hang on a minute, I can give you all of these answers, I can tell you what unison's going to be like and this is what's been decided, now come back to me and give me your fears, give me your doubts and I'll go and take them on to represent you. How can I do that? How can I stand up and do that? I don't know I think that's one of the purposes Mr chairman also of the, of the educational seminar that we're in the throes of... organizing, to actually... to do that. To, to educate, advise [speaker001:] Th a after the seminar [speaker003:] the, the activists who then can go out... I, like the disciples [LAUGHTER] in a sense [] erm... to, to the, to the new membership. If you don't mind me saying I think it's a little bit late in the day. I said this all along unfortunate fell holiday time I'm sorry to say but... I think that we're talking about this education day at the beginning of October... and I mean god knows we've known this is coming for, it's almost as if we've got to the brink of, you know like lemmings just about to throw ourselves off the cliff and we don't know why we're going to do it. We, we can't stand there in front of members and put ourselves in the firing line if we don't know the answers to their questions. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well [speaker003:] Th this has been foisted on you by a group of activists sort of Mm and, and [LAUGHTER] the problem has not been a lack of information... the problem has been a saturation of information NUPE and COHSE but certainly in NALGO Scandinavian forests have bit the dust [LAUGHTER] er and it's written in a language that hardly anybody can understand anyway. Yeah. Er you, you know it's, it's not plain English, it certainly wouldn't [cough] and I think the task really is to try to translate some of that stuff into English Mm er... you, you know er Northumbrian perhaps er or, or whatever. I mean There is a further diffi difficulty is, as an erstwhile activist [LAUGHTER] jaundiced, jaundiced activist shall I call myself... I mean a point of view mentioned recognition of the River Authorities, I mean erm the latest pay awards... I mean we haven't had too much to gloat about have we? this, this is what the m this is what we can do for the members. I mean we're up against a wall. I mean increasingly small authorities are effectively... opting out of the national negotiat now we can't ignore th

[speaker001:] Erm John and Jonathan sit down but when I I want you to read your essay about your home. Simon... I want you to read about your home as well [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] and as Martin is still giving out I think I'll have you Christopher please to read yours about monster, so I'll have the two monster ones first and then the two home ones. Right, just sit down for a minute and let's, Michael read his first. [speaker002:] [reading] The monster from the marsh. I saw the monster arrive from the marsh he looked at the... when I saw him I ran [] ... [reading] The monster from the marsh. When I was walking past the marsh one, one night, when I was on my way back from school I heard a rus rustling noise behind a bu bush, when I went up the, went up first to the bush a big dragon-like thing jumped out from behind the bush, it gave me such a fright I nearly fainted. I started to run up, straight up the hill, erm lucky the monster was running straight at me and sticking out of the crowd and he tripped over and after the end []... [reading] My home. My home is near the trees and I live there... in, in my house there is I have lots of places in my and I have one... one pigeon and a dog. My home is made of wood, and the roof is made of tin and the colour of it is grey. It has two doors, one, four windows, I, I don't have the garden or, oh, in my house there are six rooms and one of them is er, one, one of them is my, is my room and a picture and a my... my, and room and er... ... [] [reading] My home. I live in a tree so does my mum... tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and dad live there. Our house is made of wood and is dark green. We have four windows and four doors, we have got a there is a big hill in front of it and it is good, but if it, if the tree house... because we find the, the trees and then... and then we were, we play in the tree house sometimes with the dog. Inside our home we have a lot of furniture, we have four rooms, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in the lounge... and one in the kitchen []... ... [speaker001:] Right then. I like erm, Christopher and Simon yes I know, take your books and show right, erm, Jonathan here right John has written a story about his home... right it's a good descriptive story on how people live until one day they couldn't think of any way that you could may improve it. [speaker002:] [reading] My home. I live in a tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and my sister. Our house is made of wood and is dark green, we have a four windows and four doors. It has got wooden roof. There is a big hill in front of it and it is good but erm because we climb the, the tree and climb it and we play in the tree house today with the dog. Inside our home we have a lot of furniture we have four rooms and one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in and one in the lounge... and one in the kitchen here [] [speaker001:] Okay, right [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] So if we cut out the one they might it might flow a bit more easily might it. That's good, it was alright apart from that you describe where John and are living well [speaker002:] Yeah, I didn't see which sort of [speaker001:] No, did he describe the house though? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Yeah, I think his description of where he was living in the tree house was very clear I think he could improve it just a bit Jonathan and then it might flow a bit more evenly, might it then, right Michael bring yours out now please. Just a minute John, right Michael I want you to read yours through once more for me please. Do it about the monster... [speaker002:] [reading] Monster from the marsh. When I saw the monster from the marsh, one night, I was, I was, I was frightened, I, I, I, I was he looked liked a... when I saw him I ran back to camp and I felt frightened, I hid under my sleeping bag the end [] [speaker001:] Right, see Michael was describing that how he felt [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] How did feel then? [speaker002:] Frightened [speaker001:] You think that he came out quite What Christine has said then do you think? [speaker002:] Well you said he went under a sleeping bag [speaker001:] Aha [speaker002:] and just, I hid under my sleeping bag, er, then, I thought er the mon what would happen to the monster and so he might of stayed there on, you know, all, all night [speaker001:] John Well he did say that the monster was rather large, he looked like a bird with some feathers plucked out What else could you bring in his bag? Anything else he could of put in the hat Liam? [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] He vaguely saw the monster and then he ran back to the camp where he was camping, but he didn't describe [speaker002:] Where, where Yeah, where [speaker001:] So he could of put a little bit in about how he ran back [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] and what he went through in, in that couldn't he? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Right, the people who have not read an essay out yet, I want you to sit, just a minute Michael, next to somebody and I want you to read your essay to them and see what they think about it and how you could maybe improve it and I want Michael and John to go and show Steve your books as well now please, right boys do that now then, yes, could you take yours to show please [speaker002:] ... Do we have to show both? Not sure... it's still working. It's still working The thingy Is it recording us? Is it recording? Yeah ... My dad's got all this ... [children reading essays in class room all together] [speaker001:] Sorry Steve, erm, that you're not going to read your essay and and that isn't essay, either work your book or, and get it er, yes, well it has to be up and when you've finished it you can then do a picture about your

[speaker001:] The disaster, what other emergencies that they might harmful effects to the environment [speaker002:] Right, now can you think of a particular example of where that has happened fairly recently, Alison? [speaker001:] Erm, the Rio hurricane [speaker002:] The hurricane, yes and you, were you there? so do you know anything about it in particular? [speaker001:] Well it's not just that it destroyed [speaker002:] and what's, what's happened since, do you know what's happened since? [speaker001:] Well, erm, of course it took them quite a while that the people [speaker002:] I thought he flew down there to actually offering aid or whatever, and what's, what's he done then since that week, has he actually [speaker001:] He's ceased fire [speaker002:] He really is [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] because you see once it's gone out of the news, erm, we don't hear any more about it, the, the immediate distress of the people isn't obvious [speaker001:] Yeah because of the [speaker002:] that's going to be long term then isn't it the water [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] How far is in, in order to help, do you know? [speaker001:] A couple of hours [speaker002:] Right, and how big this will be, bigger than our pack full is it? that's brilliant, yes. Tom can you think of another match got anything to say about this one? [speaker001:] In, in Russia when we had that, that [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] that er nuclear, nuclear [speaker002:] yes it's Chernobyl, he was looking for the real word there, a nuclear what? [speaker001:] A nuclear power station [speaker002:] Alright, no, but the actual ray of the, of the plant, the nuclear reactor, right what, what happened? Do you remember what happened then? [speaker001:] Well the, the [speaker002:] that's right [speaker001:] It's still, they, they can't afford to shut it down but should they shut down cos it's very, a lot of the works safety standard. [speaker002:] Yes, what's a good word for a safety standard becoming an make certain that it's safe. What happened to the surrounding area, don't you know? yes and yes, er those that were willing to go [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] they made the area around the reactor a non living area, the problem is of course people that have lived there for a long time don't want to move and so over intended to stay, because the immediate reaction to something like that happening isn't necessarily erm, all bad, I mean people are quite glad that they are still alive and they're quite prepared to put up with the possible fallout of the consequences of that so that they can stay in their own homes. The reactions after Hiroshima, er when the bombed had dropped were erm, somewhat strange, people with documentation say that people even though they were injured didn't actually want to move away from their home early, erm, and so that possibly the same sort of thing happened in Chernobyl. What about letting the rest of the world know, did Chernobyl have any effect on, on the rest of the world with that explosion? Damage anywhere else right, if so what happened to that then? [speaker001:] and, erm acid rain [speaker002:] Well that's slightly prospect, yes, there's something else. What would the world do erm to find out how much damage Chernobyl had done?... Well then did we all just sit there and say well you know don't rot there's nuclear sort of fallout and er oh dear erm what we going to do about it and decide should we get on onto it [speaker001:] They did put over and see how much there was and what could we do about it [speaker002:] They actually did send teams of people erm, nuclear scientists to Chernobyl to try and get just how much damage was being caused and going on being caused, but there was, I think you probably don't remember because it went right by hurricane has gone out of the news now, once something like that has happened there's always another disaster coming behind that actually takes over the headlines, so, about six months, a year, two years afterwards they were still finding that in parts of Europe the general level of nuclear activity was higher than it had been before Chernobyl, why would that happen? [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] Welsh Wales, in Wales and in the Lake District they found that the er level of nuclear activity on the surface of, of the field as it were and therefore reached the animals is higher than it has been, how would they manage to do that? [speaker001:] Well if doing an explosion I'm not really sure the nuclear reactor materials [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] put into the clouds [speaker002:] The atmosphere [speaker001:] and in the atmosphere and they would be blown over [speaker002:] That's right Yes exactly, the Government [speaker001:] with the er man with no in the world [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] and it was because of, of a nuclear explosion [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] and all the sheep had died and [speaker002:] Yeah, and what did you get you see, you get mutations going on in plants so that you get at the moment when the plants themselves are altered, it doesn't necessary, necessary mean that they're killed off, it doesn't necessary mean that they are killed off, it means that the actual genes alter, that they go on breathing so you get ginormous sort of cabbages, you know, cabbages that'll normally be about that size, suddenly become that size [speaker001:] that they're the biggest in the world [speaker002:] Now why? [speaker001:] I'm not sure, but I, I [speaker002:] no well that in itself that's not another problem [speaker001:] but er, the cabbages is like, is huge and [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] like twenty [speaker002:] Where, why might it be that if, if we're actually talking about this mutation and things have changed it? How do they test nuclear weapons for instance? Well not, not to, no, no they, they test that for but they actually have controlled explosions and what sort of places would they need for those? [speaker001:] In the desert [speaker002:] Yeah not in the middle of Manchester or London or wherever they use they use er, a very sort of sparse unpopulated area obviously and so you do get erm plants and animals having to, well change it so that they, er you take as it were that the genes changed, some does mutation probably alright, some probably not. [speaker001:] Wasn't it that the Australians who, who about twenty odd years ago had Britain test all of their erm nuclear weapons Yeah [speaker002:] Mhm [speaker001:] in er sort of Scarborough [speaker002:] that's right yes and it used to be Christmas Islands where, where literally they, they did the first of nuclear protection and the people that were involved in doing that have actually mutated themselves in as much as it seems to be that which is a mutation itself actually is more is course it is, have been associated with nuclear activity. Right, can we leave that one then, the other one that I, I thought about is probably an oil disaster, here we have an oil tanker, what was that one off the, the north of America, do you remember where it was? Yes that's right, and what happened to that? Yes an enormous amount of oil and what was [speaker001:] Well all like fishes and they would destroy them and yeah [speaker002:] And the, the animal life that was destroyed there, in fact that amazing picture of the oil slick that looked liked the sea, remember it [speaker001:] Yes Yeah [speaker002:] and said that it in the same sort of way, salt water there was a kind of to the whole thing, can you remember it? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] I mean it was in a sense beautiful, but really okay can, er Nicholas go ahead and read number nineteen please [speaker001:] [reading] States shall provide prior and time timely notification and relevant information to potentially affected States on activities that may have a significant adverse trans transboundary [speaker002:] Transboundary [speaker001:] environmental effect and shall consult with those States at an early stage and in good faith [] [speaker002:] Right what do you think it means?... Now take it sentence by sentence, what about the first one? [speaker001:] I don't know whether if you think there's going to be a nuclear fallout and you have to inform all the other countries in Europe and the world or whatever [speaker002:] If we were talking about testing weapons or if we were talking about testing new equipment which involves that then you would other states as a country and inform other people, what about the next bit?... Take the last phrase [reading] at an early stage and in good faith [] [speaker001:] country in Europe so they think they're going to be testing their weapons and for the tell the rest of Europe that they [speaker002:] Yes, you've got to have an agreement haven't they? And so that and, and this is how erm states, countries actually learn to get on together and trust each other. The underpinning thing is it for is that er we learn, we learn terribly slowly to actually trust each other rather than be enemies. Can you do the next one James please, thank you. [speaker001:] [reading] Women have a vital role in environmental management and development. Their full participation is therefore essential to achieve sustainable development [] [speaker002:] Right, that's a very one isn't it? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Right, [reading] Women have a vital role in environmental management and development [] [speaker001:] Well it shouldn't just be men, men, you know, it should be women as well. You can get in there and er children will grow up [speaker002:] Right, now what do we call when you say doing it, what do you actually mean? [speaker001:] Erm, helping to clear up [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] what up all the time? [speaker001:] Well erm, it's sort of that erm, there should be, there, there are a chair, they are a chair of women that erm, that still knows the chairman Yeah and called the chair person [speaker002:] Yes, so we put, we, we will be becoming politically, politically correct, yeah [speaker001:] We shouldn't erm offered more sort of more [speaker002:] If we actually, very quickly, which round the world was meant to be, erm, those of you which are familiar with other countries, what about women in, say America, Ashley, are, are they, do they participate in the same way as they do here? For instance you've got a, you've got er staff here, half of them are women, would that be the same situation in schools in there? [speaker001:] No, probably more than that really [speaker002:] Right, why would you say that? [speaker001:] I can't, I can remember having a games teacher [speaker002:] Being, being a man and, and the rest, but then he would be wouldn't you, and women are naturally alongside young mature has anyone got any comment on that, do you think that it's, a, a sensible thing to happen or do you think men ought to be infants' teachers. [speaker001:] Well er, at our school it's just like that and then, then three or four years into the school [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] be a games teacher and all that [speaker002:] Yeah, you don't know my [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] still in, in one way, in European and North American situations women do seem to have the same sort of job opportunities as men do what about somewhere like Africa what about the West Coast of Africa, we talked about Nigeria and West Africa quite a lot, what about women involved in there? [speaker001:] Erm, erm [speaker002:] Anybody idea of what, what that is? Or [speaker001:] and, erm they sort of work and most of it, some of them walk, sometimes walk ten miles just to get two bottles of water [speaker002:] Yeah So you're gonna go and live there Tom erm, yes, when I, when I was living in, in Nigeria the women were the one that, at the lower end of society, they were the ones that lived they were the ones that organized the mini markets, run the town, they, they would have a minimal allowance of vegetables or meat or whatever to sell, it was the women that did the bartering, it was the women that actually got enough money to feed the family and, and the men were really quite an lot, they, they thought that lot was set below them, that the women had to sort that side of things out and they erm really set a great put in a great deal of their time erm going to work and that could be working for er a European or an American right, er some sort of help in the house, or in the garden or whatever, so you had the men doing the same sort of tasks the housework as it were for Europeans and Americans and the women looking after the, the economic development of that little do you see, completely different to work, I mean I tried to imagine my husband, me coming in here to work and he going to erm the little sort of erm the maid in was actually, it isn't right, it doesn't feel right, does it? Cultures are different, what about India? What happens there? Any idea there? [speaker001:] Erm... [speaker002:] I think it depends what members of society we're talking about, right, if people are educated and they have a way forward to improve their understanding, then they become less and less involved with a day to day tasks, right. Here when they're talking about women, I think James was right, women do have a vital role at the beginning in all cultures, what I'm trying to say is that they have a vital role increasingly as they become more and more educated too. Nick. [speaker001:] I think in India anyway, I think there's more of the man that do the work because the women, or the men makes the women stay at home, and sort of, sort of make themselves look very beautiful and [speaker002:] How do they do that? [speaker001:] and, and bring the children up very well, become great business men and women [speaker002:] I think of it when we make these great generalizations that is they do all sorts of combinations of things in India combined to make their lifestyle different but they would, some people in if you're rich enough, if you have the wife that you want and you've got the children that you want and you've got enough money, then you can live that sort of lifestyle, if you were obviously quite er you may never of had a house at all and yet you still got your family a different lifestyle in fact. We're going to go, go around actually looking varied situations in which that sort of lifestyle as possible, but the absolute opposite happens within the same city as well. Could we just go on to twenty one and we might just sort of stop this part of the lesson there. Could you erm read that for us erm Adrian would you [speaker001:] Which one? [speaker002:] Twenty one [speaker001:] [reading] The creativity, ideals and courage of the youth of the world should be mobilized to forge a global partnership in order to achieve sustainable development and ensure a better future for all [] [speaker002:] Right, that was a very big statement, the youth of the world and you happen to be the youth of the world, there's a lot of you, so how, there you are, you're in charge of the world, how are you going to do just that? The creativity, has anyone got a definition of creativity? [speaker001:] prospect of, of they're not too many people, over population for our supply of toxic fumes, oil, gas and coal, they might run out so creativity is the erm inventing finding out the [speaker002:] right, good, right, now what about the ideals that you, what ideals have you actually got? Come on you've got to live somehow or other good, right, now what do you mean by a good life? [speaker001:] Well you see things, go places have like out in the car or around [speaker002:] So I have the going to do anything to anybody else? [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] Adrian what's, what's your comments, serious comments on that? [speaker001:] I don't know, on what? [speaker002:] On having ideals, like as you grow older, I mean you're quite an ancient person already, within the next ten years you'll have to choose the sort of lifestyle you want and you really have to choose as well whether you're going to involve other people in it for good or for have you thought about it at all? [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] Can you think about it just off the top of your head? [speaker001:] Don't know. [speaker002:] How do you see yourself, you've, you've actually left you've got yourself around the what's going to happen next. Your own team, you've got three A levels and they're all ace, what you gonna do? [speaker001:] Erm Go to Oxford Yeah [speaker002:] Go to Oxford, yeah, right, what you going to study when you get there? [speaker001:] I haven't thought about that [speaker002:] What are you particularly good at? [speaker001:] Erm I'm alright at maths [speaker002:] You're alright at maths, so it looks as if maths might as a scientist possibly might be there you are, you're, you've got your first class honour degree, you're going to do your P H D [speaker001:] Right [speaker002:] and er Adrian, Doctor Adrian has just got his er ticket for life, now are you going to do anything, er can you imagine what you might like to work at? [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] You have a little think about it, I'll come back to you in a minute, Anthony [speaker001:] Well I'm gonna be a lawyer [speaker002:] You're gonna be a lawyer? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Right, and how is that going to help the world by Anthony being a lawyer [speaker001:] Erm to stop too many criminals, be safe, and innocent people [speaker002:] right, so there's your loyalist family are you going to work in there or are you going to work in [speaker001:] No [speaker002:] you're going to work in there, you've just been given a, your, your standard value which is gross, thousand and thousand of dollars, now how are you going to spend that money that you've got for bearing in mind your lifestyle is finished, bearing in mind what the sort of thing your father is doing, erm, where, where are you gonna live? tell us about being [speaker001:] well, erm, I put a majority of erm I'm not sure, you can get, can get in a big office [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] and then [speaker002:] right, and are you, what sort of fee are you going to charge us? would it depend on the circumstances of your client? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] Okay, there was a little bit of doubt in there there you are, you are an idealistic person [speaker001:] Ha [speaker002:] you're a great expense in English and also in where, where you got to eighteen, chosen your A levels, you've just finished your A level, you got your results and the best way, they go to what? all As and what subjects are they going to be in? Are they going to be the ones you er like and that means the ones, those are the ones that you do well... [speaker001:] Erm, a scientist [LAUGHTER] erm [speaker002:] and then you, after you've you've got your degree, what you gonna do? Bearing in mind this is the world's question here I am world, what's the attitude to the world going to be?... [speaker001:] Er, I'll certainly pull a few changes and [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] so I'll have to think of someone that may need, need help in better, better changes for the [speaker002:] right yeah I think what, what has happened at the moment is that he would be almost helpless because there are so many things that are wrong with the world that it seems to be because we get so much information as a if you watch the news, watch the nine o'clock news tonight and try and sift out how many things you could put into a negative pile and how many you could put into a positive pile and I think that you would find that the negative pile seventy five per cent way up, now there's something in the human spirit that actually says I would like to change that, but we really don't want the children to die in Somalia do we? We don't want the children from Columbia on the streets etcetera, because there's sort of an awful helplessness about us, because we think we're doing one person, how on earth can we actually do anything, you see if enough people think together that if possible the change happens, then it can happen, right, and you [LAUGHTER] are actually [] the ones that are going to have to be considering that you are a world's visitor, you are not just Tom and you're not just Anthony right, erm, you've really got to think, what about Jayne, there you are ideal Jayne right [speaker001:] and I'm not really sure about [speaker002:] what about your life, do you see yourself just really do you think that's the sort of thing you'll like? [speaker001:] Erm, that's [speaker002:] yes so you think that [speaker001:] Yeah I don't really mind [speaker002:] no I know it's a bit early erm, but it's not too early to start thinking that you are a world citizen, you're not just Jayne and you've got a contribution to make, because if you've got this opinion that you've got this you're not just giving it just to James. What about you Adrian now, have we got you into any, any particular situation, are you going to follow dad's footsteps do you think? [speaker001:] Well, erm [speaker002:] yes yes are we saying that that's us? [speaker001:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I mean would you like to, I mean dad works from home doesn't he, he has link ups with London but he's basically got all his equipment at home. Do you see yourself having the same sort of lifestyle now like James [speaker001:] No I couldn't, too complicated [speaker002:] Right, you don't think you couldn't, you're not at [speaker001:] I don't, I don't think I'd be able to put things together [speaker002:] Right [speaker001:] or in, in this case [speaker002:] right, but on the other hand it's early days yet. What about your involvement with anything that might help the world [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that might be very useful as long as you didn't er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] right, well we've not got very far erm, what I wanted to do with you next week is going to go immediately onto this programme, which I promise I'd let you see, and the first one is actually funnily enough it's er... you get film of erm a Third World where the population is far in excess as the and you then get more film at a modern somewhere in Mexico, the central part of it where it's still falling to bits and Okay, right, good morning to you.

[speaker001:] [reading] set this to right, we must stop so we establish the rule never have the by a gr by a grumpy process in [] [speaker002:] Well what choice did he what choice has he got? [speaker001:] In the, there was a workhouse and [reading] With this view they can trap to lay on and then supply of water, and when a and half an orange Sunday [LAUGHTER] they named a great many of [] ... [speaker002:] Anything else that [reading] they make great many other wise and humane [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [] [speaker001:] [reading] This is a, this is [] [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] [reading] The room was inseparable from the worker and the [] [speaker002:] Okay, so make the, what's going on in England at the time? Paul yeah The, the people in charge see that the work are an excellent idea, so if you Workers were only used people who could actually work, if people can't do a job then [speaker001:] they go off to an [speaker002:] They could do but then again of American people could be lost and [speaker001:] Would they get out of very easily? [speaker002:] Erm they do what you do [speaker001:] yeah... [speaker002:] and then again the old people would join the sent to Australia... There's certain ways that [speaker001:] Would you give ... [speaker002:] No But they were criminals anyway if you treat honest poor people like this then criminals are lower than, you'd take better care of animals than you would Er Nick carry on [reading] from the first six months after Oliver Twist [] you can read [speaker001:] [reading] For the first six months after Oliver Twist the system was full, was in full operat operation. It was rather extensive at first and consequence of being and a necessity of taking in clothes of all the paupers who, with, which on a, on a waste of after a week or two the number of the workhouse inmates got thin as well as the paupers and the board were in, were in... and then in which the boys got back, were, were a large was a cop was a copper at one end, after which the master dressed in an apron and assisted by one or two women and they ladled the gruel at meal times. Of this festive composition each boy had one [speaker002:] corinder [speaker001:] corinder and no more except on occasions with great the bowl never wanted washing, the boys polished, polished them with their spoons till they shone again and when they, when they had to form this operation, which never took very long, the bowl, they would sit staring at the copper with such eager eyes as if they could of devoured a of which it was composed. Employing themselves meanwhile and sucking their fingers most assid [speaker002:] Assiduously [speaker001:] assiduously [speaker002:] Carefully [speaker001:] with a, with a the view of catching up any, any spare splashes of gruel that might be cast there thereon. Boys with generally excellent appetite, Oliver Twist and his companions suffered from the tortures of slow starvation, starvation for three months, at least they got so for ferocious [], is that right? [speaker002:] Ferocious, greedy and wild [speaker001:] [reading] and wild beyond er, that one boy who was and hadn't been used to that sort of thing, for his father had kept a small cook stock his companion that unless he has another basin of gruel he was afraid he might, he might some night happen to eat, eat the boy he slept next to, who happened to be a weakly youth of tender eight and they, and they impeccably believed him. A counsel was held lots were who should walk up to the master after supper that evening and ask for more, it fell Oliver Twist [] [speaker002:] What is actually er... the boy is, could eat the boy next to him erm what was it saying that was [speaker001:] Well erm, it's a bit, he was he was just trying to scare him, trying to scare him [speaker002:] Were you right when the worst thing that this he had big pies it proves how desperate people get and then he treats them like animals and this boy said I think Er [reading] the evening arrived then [] er David [speaker001:] [reading] The evening arrived, the boys took their places, the master in a cook's uniform stationed himself at the copper. His four assistants behind him. The gruel was served up and a long grace was said over a short the gruel disappeared, the boys looked at each other and went over, while his next neighbours nudged him, tired as he was he was desperately hungry and he rest on the table and the master with his hands he said [speaker002:] Yeah that's [speaker001:] please sir, I want some more, the master of the but he turned very pale and then he what, said the master at in a stern voice, please sir, replied Oliver I want some more, the master glare at Oliver's head with the ladle in his arms and treat and Mr Bumble rushed into the room with great excitement and addressed the gentleman in the high chair said I beg your pardon sir, Oliver Twist has asked for more, there was a for more said compose yourself Bumble and do I understand that he asked for more after he'd eaten supper he did sir replied Bumble, that boy would be hung I know that boy will be hung [speaker002:] this boy is a trouble maker and [speaker001:] and the boy would next morning would pass on the outside of the gate offering a reward of five pounds to anyone who would in other words five pounds for Oliver Twist I never in for this in my life said the in the white, white coat as he locked the gate and he went to the next morning. I never want to... [speaker002:] I had always [speaker001:] anything in my life and then I am that boy by the white waistcoat the gentleman [] [speaker002:] So what's he got against the yeah, erm, he's also, what's his attitude to what he yes, but is he, is he terribly serious about his job? [speaker001:] No, he's very sarcastic [speaker002:] Yeah, erm you're right, as I first show in sequel whether the white waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should have just yet, whether like Oliver Twist Later Oliver Twist was very near getting a in other words Sorry [speaker001:] It could not of been easy [speaker002:] you'll find out actually why in a moment [speaker001:] [reading] A week after the had asking for more, Oliver remained greater prisoner in the darken solitary room which he had been consigned by the wisdom and mercy of the board, but it appears that at first sight not unreasonable disclose that for a particular gentleman of white waistcoat. It was established that individual pathetic character once and forever by tying one end of his pocket handkerchief to a hook on, in the wall and attaching himself to the other to the performance, to, to the performance of this feat however the pocket handkerchief inside had been all he, he only cried bitterly all day and when the longest nights came on he spread his little hand before his eyes to shut out the darkness and crouching in the corner tried to sleep, everyone drawing himself closer and closer to the wall [] [speaker002:] It's most that any prisoner you could do, but then again [speaker001:] yeah... ... [reading] Let it not be spoke by of the system that during the period of as for exercise it was nice cold weather a public warning had been and so far this uses the same apartment every evening at prayer time and there selfish mind work a general publication for boys contain a special clause by authority of the board in which they repeatedly made good, virtuous, protected, obedient as regarded to a the powers of wickedness as an article direct from [] [speaker002:] What is his crime? [speaker001:] He asked for more [speaker002:] He just asked for more... erm, one thing that is disturbing, what he does very causally mention is what is going on all the time [speaker001:] ... [speaker002:] Well maybe not, but what is going on is [speaker001:] Fear [speaker002:] fear, all the time, if anybody to steps out of line or as I was going with the fourth year to what lies have been used? how can they justify what they do? yeah, they they're being fed, they're still kind people taking care of them, they're very lucky people and what do and so we presumably, the little children well I suppose you get in a gutter or something, this place would be better, as long as you get fed, the stuff you get there is horrible, but at least it's food and er, these kind people are taking care of it. In the outside world there's people waiting to exploit children and er Anthony do you want [speaker001:] Erm [reading] with chimney sweeper was waiting down in the high street he was waiting there whoa said Mr to the donkey, the donkey was wondering probably whether he was so without listening to a word of warning he jumped on him [] [speaker002:] What makes you a bit disturbed about that? [speaker001:] He's trying to smash [speaker002:] Yes if he keeps the donkey like that [speaker001:] How's he treat children [speaker002:] how he treat children, yeah [reading] The gentleman with the white waistcoat [] [speaker001:] [reading] The gentleman with the white waistcoat was standing at the gate with his hands behind him after having delivered himself having witnessed with the donkey he smiled rejoicedly when that the door, he saw at once it was Mr Mr smiled as he pursued the I am said the gentleman in the white waistcoat [] [speaker002:] Erm... what is a erm, you say the young boy was [speaker001:] Erm, where they, where they work as giving five pounds and Oliver Twist or did they want five pounds for him? [speaker002:] Er I gather they and er... the workhouse, the gentleman in the white waistcoat, why does he think that this [speaker001:] would feed the child regularly in a [speaker002:] That's it, yeah, he's that beats the donkey, I mean all the donkey does is he hits the donkey while he pulls the reins, hits the donkey again and he finds out later that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [reading] Well the man in the white waistcoat followed the gentleman with the white waistcoat into even if he gets stuck in a chimney, worse thing that he the gentleman in the white waistcoat appeared his only chance he has is [speaker002:] Okay, now... erm now what's he supposed to be assessed by the board have they just said er, why are what's he doing? Yeah, it's all religious, hypocrisy okay, humane, it's humane to slog these boys down the chimney, yeah, it's humane giving them a good beating isn't it, right then.

[speaker001:] [reading] Erm a farmer bought a new tractor yesterday [] [speaker002:] A farmer bought a new tractor yesterday, good, right can you read the next four out, er Trevor [speaker001:] [reading] Bother, winner, winter,dr driver [] [speaker002:] That's okay [speaker001:] [reading] The river was very cold [] [speaker002:] The river was very cold, right, can you do the next one four... Charlie [speaker001:] [reading] Never, number [] [reading] The blazer was very warm [] [speaker002:] The blazer was very warm, right, yeah, erm [speaker001:] ... [reading] Erm, I have a, a warm jersey [] [speaker002:] I have a warm jersey, good [speaker001:] [reading] Remember, Jack, helicopter, er the helicopter was very big [] [speaker002:] The helicopter was very big, good, so you've all had a chance to use one set. Can we have a look at the ones underneath, in the orange block and will you do the first one Heather? [speaker001:] [reading] The bomber opens the gates to attract the driver [] [speaker002:] Good and the next one, Charlie [speaker001:] [reading] When spinning its web a spider makes a clever... pattern [] [speaker002:] Good... [speaker001:] [reading] My brother does a paper round and delivers a hundred newspapers every morning [] [speaker002:] Good [speaker001:] [reading] A crossing the road always remembers stop and [] [speaker002:] Go on [speaker001:] [reading] Ca camels in, in a desert [] ... [speaker002:] Yes without water, right, Edward [speaker001:] [reading] In the... modern [speaker002:] Hold on [speaker001:] travelled by helicopter [] [speaker002:] Excellent so you've already got percentages sorted out there, can we just look at the next block of words, and [phone rings phonecall starts] hello, hello, right, no, yeah... well I, yes I... I think it all went great, unfortunately erm, so I really can't really consider on, on that. But that details of that actually has a but I don't think it's a total story okay so I'll, I'll put it all down on, on paper and then we'll take it from there, okay, thanks, bye [phonecall ends]. Right, sorry about that, so shall we start this time with Charlie, first four Charlie, what's it say? What's A R E saying there? [speaker001:] There [speaker002:] Yes, what sort of there is that? [speaker001:] It's erm, nothing [speaker002:] There, nothing [speaker001:] there are [speaker002:] There are yes, you've got nothing on like your, there, your body is there, you're running around right [speaker001:] You can't bear it any longer [speaker002:] You can't bear it any longer, does that act as the same? [speaker001:] Yes No No [speaker002:] No it doesn't does it, it's spelt in a different way isn't it? What's that bear it any longer That's right B E A R that's right [speaker001:] Same as the animal [speaker002:] it's also the animal so that you're actually left with three er words that sound the same, two of which are spelt differently and the third which is the name of an animal, okay. They did, do then, put a pencil to there, mm... you've already done it haven't it [speaker001:] [reading] There was lots of bare people on the beach [] [speaker002:] Oh dear me, there are lots of bare people on the beach, right, what about fare, what are you going to do about that? What sort of fare is that? [speaker001:] Er for hair [speaker002:] No this is fare [speaker001:] Oh, oh yeah [speaker002:] How do you spell, how do you spell fair for fair haired? [speaker001:] F A I R [speaker002:] F A I R yes and this one is F A R E no... that's spelt the other way F A I R... anyone help him? F A R E what does it mean? [speaker001:] Is it, it was a fair idea [speaker002:] No that's the same as [speaker001:] erm was it like erm you gave me a fair amount of [speaker002:] no, that's the same thing, you're going on a journey no... oh you are slow, come on... you're going on a journey, not in a car [speaker001:] Fairly long time [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Ah, no []... [speaker001:] journey [speaker002:] Journey, we're going to travel, right no, you're getting warm, no, no [speaker001:] a fare ticket [speaker002:] A fare ticket, yes a ticket. What is the fare? How much does it cost to get there? And that's how you spell fare for that F A R E, alright, okay? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] The next one then er hare, now what sort of hare is that? [speaker001:] Rabbit [speaker002:] Yes, it's, it is the same sort of family as a rabbit a hare. How do you spell the other sort of hare? [speaker001:] H A I R [speaker002:] H A I R and that is the hair that's on your head, I've got long hair, dark hair. Now what about, what's the next word? [speaker001:] Scare Scare [speaker002:] Scare, now put that in a sentence [speaker001:] Erm,... [speaker002:] What sort of word is scare? [speaker001:] Erm a kind of, when you boo somebody it's scare [speaker002:] Yes so it's a scare, so what kind of word is it? Come on get it right [speaker001:] Is it, er, can I put it in a sentence? [speaker002:] No, would you tell me what sort of word it is remembering what we did at the beginning of the week yeah, but that's the, what it means, I want to know what kind of a word it is... Yes I know it's spelt [speaker001:] Is it a verb? [speaker002:] No it's not a verb, come on, what is it [speaker001:] A noun [speaker002:] Yes it's a noun, it's a name of something isn't it? Because we were doing that at the beginning of the week, a scare, you could actually get right, so can you put it back into, into a sentence again then Shirley? [speaker001:] You've got a scare on, I saw Dracula [speaker002:] We've got a scare on, we saw Dracula, yes, that was it. Right what's the next word? [speaker001:] Share [speaker002:] Share, what does share mean? [speaker001:] You share out [speaker002:] You share out, can you put that in a sentence? [speaker001:] I like to share out my sweets [speaker002:] Oh that's lovely, I like to share out my sweets [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] digging [speaker002:] Digging, they're going onto double Gs now, why would it be double G? [speaker001:] One put dig and then and then -ing [speaker002:] Yes, but there is a rule isn't there [speaker001:] Oh yeah [speaker002:] Ah yes, Trevor [speaker001:] because, because, is it cos of erm, if you put D [speaker002:] no, not quite, you're nearly right, come on [speaker001:] Is it because the I sounds like [speaker002:] yes you would actually get, a magic E right, or a magic I making that vowel right say its long name, so it would be quite difficult to say dig giding [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right, lets try the next one, what's the next one? [speaker001:] er bigger [speaker002:] bigger that's for the same reason, there you've got an E, and so because you've got the E we can double the G to make the I go on, go on say short for [speaker001:] It would be beager [speaker002:] It would be beager, but what is G and E say itself G isn't it? Yeah, so you've really got to protect, you've got to protect that I, okay, so can you put bigger in a sentence Trevor? [speaker001:] Erm, er er the man was bigger than the boy [speaker002:] A man was bigger than the boy, good. Charlie the next one [speaker001:] Erm parents [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] I love my parents [speaker002:] Oh I am pleased, I love my parents, good, spare, spare I let someone borrow my spare pencil, I let someone borrow my spare pencil [speaker001:] Prepare [speaker002:] Prepare, what does that mean? [speaker001:] Erm, you prepare something [speaker002:] Can you put it in a sentence for me? [speaker001:] I prepare for my music exam [speaker002:] I prepare for my music exam, if you're going to do prepare, what are you going to put on the end?... Yes I would care for when I had to do something, rather than just go straight into that, good [speaker001:] Giggle [speaker002:] Giggle, mm, we know all about that don't we? [speaker001:] I giggle when somebody [speaker002:] I giggle when somebody [speaker001:] erm [speaker002:] no if you say giggle you're actually saying the present tense, so giggles [speaker001:] Giggles [speaker002:] giggles would be better, because it sounds as if they've already chosen we all have a giggle, yes it can be a giggle until, if you're using giggle and a giggle what sort of word is it? a noun, yeah, if you use giggles, then Ashley what sort of words is it then? [speaker001:] What, oh dear, oh [speaker002:] It's not an oh dear word, no [speaker001:] It's a verb [speaker002:] Thank you, it's a verb, right, to do something, so it's the same spelling that can be used in different ways. What about the next one... [speaker001:] Goggles [speaker002:] Goggles [speaker001:] I wore my goggles in the swimming pool [speaker002:] I wore my goggles in the swimming pool, good Right, the next one [speaker001:] Erm, trigger [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] A man pulled the trigger on his gun and shot him [speaker002:] yes absolutely [speaker001:] Luggage [speaker002:] Luggage [speaker001:] Erm, I had to have my luggage checked at the airport [speaker002:] I had to have my luggage checked at the airport, you see what's happened to the end of that word, look at it... right, you've got age at the end because what rule is working there? [speaker001:] Got a double G [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Got a double g [speaker002:] No have a look, you're only looking at the beginning of it... here try again [speaker001:] It's got the E on the end [speaker002:] And what sort of E is that?... [speaker001:] Not the magic, magic E [speaker002:] Yes it's the magic E, isn't it, and what's it making that A say? A as opposed to U isn't it, so it's really like lugg age so if you say it quickly together it becomes luggage, yeah, okay, the next one, oh sorry put it in a sentence [speaker001:] Suggest [speaker002:] Suggest [speaker001:] erm, I, I have to suggest that the erm the had er [speaker002:] mm, that's right, I had to suggest the captain's orders. I suggested how, what would you put on the end of suggested? [speaker001:] E D [speaker002:] E D, even though when we say it, it sounds like if you said I made a suggestion, what sort of word would that be? Come on, you're all asleep, now a suggestion what would that be? [speaker001:] A nou [speaker002:] Yes come on Charlie be brave, a noun, yes, a something isn't it, a, if you write a or the in front of a word it's usually a noun, okay, so just keep listening for the a and the. The next one, Trevor [speaker001:] Erm beware [speaker002:] Beware, right and a sentence please [speaker001:] Beware of Frankenstein [speaker002:] Beware of Frankenstein. Charlie [speaker001:] Erm... [speaker002:] third one down [speaker001:] I had a nightmare last night [speaker002:] You had a nightmare last night. What happened in your nightmare? [speaker001:] Don't know [speaker002:] Come back to life again because when you woke up this morning and the next one [speaker001:] Juggle [speaker002:] Juggle [speaker001:] Erm, I know a clown that juggles [speaker002:] I know a clo a clown that juggles. Why couldn't you actually have J U G, one G, L E? why couldn't you have the spelling J U G L E? [speaker001:] Something would happen to the L [speaker002:] [phone rings] Something would happen not to the L but to the vowel. [phone conversation start] Hello... I'm terribly busy Norma actually, I've got a full lesson at the minute, erm, I'll, I'll try and, and sort that out as soon as I've finished this lesson okay, thanks for telling me Norma thank you, bye [phonecall ends]. [speaker001:] Jugle [speaker002:] Yes because what happens when you've got just a very thin L, the magic E can even work through it, U, right, so it will be jugle, yeah, jugle, that wouldn't be the right pronunciation at all, okay, let's go on to the next one [speaker001:] Erm struggle [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] I had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum [speaker002:] Well done, I, very good, I had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum, right [speaker001:] Wriggle [speaker002:] Wriggle [speaker001:] Erm... I had to wriggle out of the scrum [speaker002:] I had to wriggle out of the scrum, right, good [speaker001:] Farewell, is that farewell I have to say farewell to my [speaker002:] yes cos what's happened to him? is he really, is he really? [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Oh I didn't know that, I thought the army was [speaker001:] no he's going to Gloucester and then he's erm going to erm [speaker002:] Cheltenham and Gloucester is the poly that he's going to? [speaker001:] Yes polytech [speaker002:] Oh right, I see when you said that I thought he was going to an army regiment that they put up in Gloucester Oh I got that mixed up, sorry about that, right when does that happen then? This October [speaker001:] Erm, the twenty first [speaker002:] Right, and what's he going to do there? Oh is he? Oh good, oh I, I'm rather pleased about that right, can we do the next one, the last one [speaker001:] It's a boggin crash [speaker002:] It's a boggin crash [speaker001:] What [speaker002:] Yes, that's what you're going to do today Well that's perfectly alright. I've tried to make them a little bit longer.

[speaker001:] Oh did they? I must just jump up and down on Mrs when I see her at lunch time. Emma, is Emma here today? Oh she's with Mrs is she? I see... now we've got lots to do this morning, you're going to need to ignore what's going on behind me, ah, it's not happening, right, as I said to you at the very beginning of September I'm the star, so you pay attention to me. That was the correct thing to do, very well though, you saw the look and you decided. On the board this morning we're going to have a bash at thinking about some targets, we're going to have a bash think about, how you think you've done so far? One of the two tasks that I've set you since we met in September, what are the two big tasks that we've concentrated on? One should be in your file already and it should be finished and the other one you're going to give to me today. [speaker002:] Our passport and our diary [speaker001:] Your passports and your graphs. There the two big pieces of work that we've done together so far, in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet... [speaker002:] We had to do, do jobs [speaker001:] so you owe me ten minutes and normally when you come into my room you say I'm sorry I'm late. [speaker002:] I'm sorry I'm late [speaker001:] You don't look as if you mean it, sit down please because my lesson started ten minutes ago... there's one over there Now in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet and it's going to ask you how well you think you're doing. Have you been able to complete the survey on belief, have you been able to get it done by a deadline. What does the word deadline mean? Let's have hands up, what does the word deadline mean? [speaker002:] The time when it has to come in. [speaker001:] Yes, the time when it has to come in, the day I say I want to collect it, now you might need to say to yourself, oh dear, Mrs said the deadline was, have I met it? No, or yes I'm mega brilliant, yes I did meet the deadline. Now I'm going to help you with it and what I suggest we do this morning when I give you these sheets will you please write your name and today's date at the top of the sheet and I put the date on the board, and then can you please resist the temptation to start, start writing over the rest of the sheet until I've gone through it with you. You can certainly have a read but please resist the temptation to write on it. Right the sheets are coming round, when you get yours, your name on it and today's date on it please, that's all, I've already punched holes in it so it's ready to go in your file... Now is there anyone who does not have one of these sheets, it says at the top year seven, module one, survey on belief. Is there anyone who does not have a copy in front of them? Please write your name and the date. The date is on the board... Oh, we'll do that later that one, get you another one... good, most people seem to of done that. If you have a look at the sheet you can see there are six sections and then on the right hand side there are two columns, one is headed up pupil the other is headed up teacher. In a moment when I've explained what each of these sections mean, I'm going to ask you to put your signature in the column says, that says pupil. Each time you think you have succeeded in accomplishing that task. Now when I sign my name... that's what I do, they're my initials, that's all I need you to do. Now you might decide that you want to put, I don't know F B, Fred Bloggs like that, that's fine, you do not need to write your full name. A simple signature is fine, and then I, when I'm satisfied that I have seen that work in your file done in the way you say you've done it, I will sign the teacher column on your sheet... Okay, let's start going down these six sections. Section one says, now for this everybody we're thinking about the survey you did in the form room, from which you did your graphs, saying to people do you believe in god, have you visited a place of worship, is everyone clear about the piece of work we're thinking about, speak to me. [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Yes, good. [speaker002:] I didn't do it [speaker001:] You didn't do the class survey? Really [speaker002:] because I was away [speaker001:] You were away for all of it? In which case it would be pretty silly to fill that in wouldn't it? Pretty silly, because you haven't done that piece of work, so perhaps what you would like to do if you would like to follow it with us, then I will give you back, I think I might have your survey here, and you can at least see what we've been talking about and then on that we can write absent for this piece of work, does that make sense, good. Everybody else then, number, section one [reading] Can you collect information for use in a class [] Now we've got several ways of doing this, first of all, were you able to collect information for the class survey, whoever's fiddling with a pen please don't, it's driving me nuts. Could you collect information for the class survey? Were you able in other words to go round and talk to people to get their answers and record your answers on their grid, if you think yes you did do that, sign your name now, in section one, where it says survey. If you don't think you can do it, then I'd leave it blank if I were you, cos otherwise you're telling fibs aren't you?... Who thinks they were able to collect information for the survey? Hands up, oh brilliant, boys you not sure? [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] Not sure, okay, hands down everybody. What are you not sure about? [speaker002:] I didn't get all the names [speaker001:] Right, so you had a problem getting everybody's name, what problem did you have? [speaker002:] The same as Malcolm [speaker001:] You had the same problem as Malcolm, so, would it be fair to sign that or would it be more sensible to leave it blank? [speaker002:] Leave it blank [speaker001:] Why? [speaker002:] Because we didn't finish it [speaker001:] Right, that makes sense, good, sensible. [speaker002:] I, I, I, I did it, but I only missed out the two people that were away. [speaker001:] Right, so, it wasn't your fault that they were away was it? So did you do the survey? [speaker002:] Did it. [speaker001:] So what you gonna do? [speaker002:] Sign it. [speaker001:] Brilliant, you're gonna sign it, brilliant. Right next part of section one, [reading] did you collect the information... by the deadline [] which means were you able to complete it in your form time with your form tutor and bring it to the lesson so that you could start on the s on the graph. You have a think about it, if you think yes I did, I spoke to everybody, I got their answers and I was able to bring that sheet to Mrs lesson, sign it. Did you think mm, no, I had one or two names I left off, I was too busy doing something else, I was away, then you can't sign it can you? Because you did not meet the deadline and you've just told me that deadline means the day I said I wanted it. Everybody okay with that? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Speak to me [speaker002:] Yes I was away, but I completed it, so [speaker001:] By the deadline? Sign it. Okay, third part [reading] did you collect the information after the deadline [] if you did, sign it. If you didn't, if you met the deadline leave it blank, only you know the answer to that. Next one [reading] I did not complete the survey [] not because people were away, if people were absent that's not your fault, what reasons might there be for you not completing the survey, hands up... [speaker002:] I didn't get time to go round all the people [speaker001:] You didn't get time to go round to everybody, that's one, you were too busy chatting the girls up, yeah [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] others [speaker002:] I was away [speaker001:] I was away, I, I was absent, so sign it. Any more [speaker002:] I done most of them but I left the sheet at home in my coat. [speaker001:] I did most of them but then I left the sheet at home, sign that bit. Right, yes, so you weren't able to complete it because you left the things at home, you weren't very well organized, okay, so sign that part. [speaker002:] Shall I sign it, er cos I didn't get all the names?... [speaker001:] Yes, anybody else not sure, please don't write on your pencil case. Anybody else not sure? Okay, we've done section one, well done. Section two, oh big word here, collate. [reading] I can collate information and present the information as a table []. What on earth do you think the word collate means? It's a very sort of secondary school type word isn't it? [speaker002:] Is it to collect all the information you've got [speaker001:] It does mean collect, sort of, er, you're talking to me everybody, it does sort of mean collect, anybody else? Collate... means not only collect together but organize it. Do you remember the tallies we did? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] We were collating, so I can collate the information and present the information as a table, how many of you were able to do the tallies?... Brilliant, sign it.... Number three... [reading] I can present information in graph form []... who's been able to do a bar graph? [speaker002:] I've done a bit of one [speaker001:] Who's been able to do a bar graph?... Brilliant, sign it... who did pictures to go with their bar graph? Sign it, so there should be two signatures in that little bit of number three. You did a graph and you did pictures, if you did the graph one signature, if you did pictures another signature and shall we say, what are we going to call pictures? What are we going to call that, illustrations, is the word, what are we going to say is acceptable as an illustration? Hands up, give me some suggestions... no ideas [speaker002:] Decorate them [speaker001:] Decorated accounts for illustrated, pictures, patterns, colours, you filled in all the space, that's illustrated as far as I'm concerned.... [reading] Did you work as a member of a group [], now what do you think that means? Oops sorry, bash you on the bonce, no it's my album [speaker002:] Did you work in a group? [speaker001:] To do what? [speaker002:] To do the graph [speaker001:] Mm... some people decided they were going to work as a, as a group on their table, to gather information and when you were doing the tallies last week, you helped each other didn't you, some of you helped, you were talking to one another to help make sure that you got the right number of tallies, if you worked with some other people to get the survey questions and do the tallies, sign it, if you did everything on your own, leave it blank... is anyone not sure what to do there? [speaker002:] I helped you. [speaker001:] Oh I don't want the arguments of about who was helped, okay you carry on, you argue, that's alright... number five, read it and then somebody tell me what it means. Read it, number five, and someone [speaker002:] What [speaker001:] tell me what it means, you've got some secondary school type words there as well it says [reading] has been co-operative and helpful in the classroom []. Co-operative, have you worked with other people, as a team, as a pair, have you been pleasant and helpful, have you been a pain in the neck? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Now if you think you have been pleasant and helpful, you've shared things with somebody, if they asked you a question you didn't bang them on the head, you helped, sign it... now we come to the real sixty thousand point question, are you ready for this? Are you really ready for this? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] I'm not sure, [reading] has produced all homework, all homework on time [] if you think yes I have, sign it, if you think no I haven't, there's a bit sitting at home and I'm gonna give it in tomorrow, no you haven't have you? You haven't, if you've got it all in on time, you've brought it all to this and you haven't come out to me saying oh I'm really sorry can I bring it tomorrow, oh I really wasn't sure, oh... [speaker002:] Miss you know the graph we done where we were if it wasn't completed and we still bring it in can we write it down or? [speaker001:] Well would you say then that you had finished the homework task on time? [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] You've answered your own question. [speaker002:] Miss [speaker001:] I didn't set a deadline for that though did I? Any more Andrew [speaker002:] Miss I done it, but I left it at home. [speaker001:] So, have you done it for the deadline? Have I got it in my hand today? You've answered your own question... okay, you're doing well, now, on the board, can you all look at the board please, shh, lips together, er... thank you, look at the board, not this bit, that's not for you, this bit, this is your bit this morning. Targets, give me another name for a target, hands up, another name for a target. [speaker002:] Er, aim [speaker001:] Aim, that's a good word, aim, more [speaker002:] Achievement [speaker001:] Achievement, I think you might say an achievement is when you reach the target, that's been an achievement, yeah. Another word for a target, we have aim, goal perhaps is one we could use. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Now at the bottom of your sheet, shh, shh, I, there are two boxes, one is for me to scribble in, the other one is for you to write neatly in, I'm the only one here who's allowed to scribble. I would improve this work by, in front of you this morning, most of you have got your graph. The bar chart that was the result of the survey we did... you need to look at that piece of work and ask yourself a question, is this piece of work the best thing I have ever done? If the answer is no, then you need to think about how you could improve that piece of work, somebody is speaking... now it's bad enough you owe me ten minutes... if it's not the best piece of work you've ever done, why isn't it? Now have a look at the work now, hands up and see if you could tell me, just looking at your work, is there some way you could of improved it. If I said right you've got a second chance this morning, how could you improve that piece of work in front of you now. [speaker002:] Handwriting. [speaker001:] Handwriting, I could make my handwriting neater, larger, I could try joining my handwriting have the letters joined, some people are still more comfortable printing in year seven. [speaker002:] Illustrations. [speaker001:] Illustrations, I could put some illustrations in, I could use more, I could use colour, I could make more detailed illustrations, yes... [speaker002:] Spelling. [speaker001:] Spelling, I could have improved this work by checking the spelling carefully with a dictionary. I could of improved this spelling by engaging my brain when I did my homework doing it on my lap in front of Neighbours. How else could you improve that piece of work? [speaker002:] By colouring [speaker001:] You could use far more colour, make it bright and cheerful, make it yell at me, come on Mrs mark me, I dare you. [speaker002:] Erm you could of underline down by the bottom [speaker001:] Did you underline the dates, titles? Did you put your name on it or have you done an anonymous piece of homework? Now, on the board I have listed some possible targets. You are going to decide now, by looking at your graph how you could improve this piece of work and I want you to write the target you decide on, it could be more than one, in the space that says [reading] I would improve this work by [], you're to write that now please, off you go... and while you're doing that let's get the register done, shh, shh... shh, shh... Sarah [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Malcolm [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Dawn [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Shaun [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] David [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Rachael [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Emma [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Emma [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Eleanor [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Ian [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Joanne [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Aaron [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Heidi [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Paul [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] David [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Carl [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] John [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Kylie [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Jodie [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Jonathan [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Sara [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Gemma [speaker002:] Yes Miss [speaker001:] Sabrina [speaker002:] Miss [speaker001:] Hannah [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Andrew [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Keith [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Nick [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Ann, Karen [speaker002:] Here Miss [speaker001:] Shaun [speaker002:] Here Miss... [speaker001:] Has everyone done that then?... [children talking amongst themselves] Right... [children talking amongst themselves] Is that a word you want on the board? Concentration, here we go, okay [speaker002:] Long word [speaker001:] Long word, big word, secondary school word... [children talking amongst themselves] [speaker002:] How do you spell demonstration Miss? [speaker001:] It's on your chart... Can I just write this on the wall, then I'll come back... Right, pens down everybody then please, pens down... who's feeling very brave this morning? [speaker002:] Me [speaker001:] You could live to regret this, hands down, hands down. Right, you're feeling very brave would you like to read out for us what your targets are [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Go on, big voice [speaker002:] Not crossing out, spelling, getting my homework in on time, asking for help when I'm not sure and presentation [speaker001:] They're biggies to go for, how many was that altogether?... [speaker002:] Five [speaker001:] Five, ooh five, and you've got witnesses now and it's been recorded. Who else is feeling brave? Who else is feeling brave? Oh suddenly we're all cowards, go on go for it, what's yours?... Big voice [speaker002:] More tidy illustrations, and better handwriting I could underline my titles. [speaker001:] Right so you're only ask that you didn't underline and that your illustrations could be better as well and the handwriting is a bit spidery, right, good, brave, right, go on [speaker002:] I could have wrote better [speaker001:] Oh shout at me I'm a bit deaf over here [speaker002:] I could have wrote better, I could of done much better illustrations [speaker001:] Right, so you could of written, when you say you could of written better, what do you mean? [speaker002:] Hand write better [speaker001:] So you could, the handwriting could of been neater, fine and then you want to pay some attention to your illustrations in the future, that's good, come on then shout at me, it's the only time you're allowed. [speaker002:] None of the crossing out, handwriting,org organizing my homework so it is handed in on time... [speaker001:] So homework hasn't, always in on time, okay that's very brave cos you know that's the death penalty hand, having hand, what do I do when, when you don't hand homework in? I'm gonna jump up and down on you aren't I? [speaker002:] Throw us out the window [speaker001:] Out the window, absolutely, right come on then, shout, shh [speaker002:] Do better illustrations and colour it, colour it in a lot neater [speaker001:] Right, so, better pictures, more colour, good, one more [speaker002:] I put down more concentration [speaker001:] And getting my homework in on time [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker001:] Mm... yes, well I think they sound like good targets, is, has anyone looked at their work and said I worked my socks off for that, I could not have improved it, I've left that section blank... so everybody thinks they could of improved that piece of work, good, that's what this is all about, getting better. Right, will you please put your... assessment sheet, which is what we have done and your graph together... and put them in the centre of the table, at the end of the lesson I'm going to have those in... centre of the table... no I don't want those, they go in your file. Ah, I don't need you to come out, put the things I'm going to have in the centre of the table... Right, let's have you quiet again then, shh... shh, I want you to listen... shh, I want you to listen... Big boys will you read that first one, big boys, loudly, I want everyone to hear it. Now, sit down, pen down please, you want to listen, now to do this, no fidgeting... pens should be down and you should be concentrating... there are going to be three pieces of writing done by people your age and a bit older, that you are going to listen to. Later you are going to have an opportunity to do some writing similar to the pieces you have heard, however, if you have been fidgeting and not concentrating, you won't know what to do... big boys. [speaker002:] [reading] I wonder why people are here on earth. I wonder why they haven't burnt. I wonder what is the point of living. Why are we talking, taking and why are we giving. These are the questions to the puzzled men, man. Why the world's here, why it began. Why are there wars and why do we fight. Why are there things wrong and why are things right. These ultimate questions have puzzled us so, what are the answers does anyone know? Why is there living and why is there dying, why is some people laughing and why is some, some people crying. Why some countries rich and some countries poor, what is this thing life and what's in it for us and what's it all for. Is there a heaven up in the sky and wh why, where do we all go when we die [] [speaker001:] Thank you [speaker002:] Paula [speaker001:] Thank you, [speaker002:] thirteen [speaker001:] Thank you, and that's written by a thirteen year old... pretty good ah, let's have a male voice amongst all of this. Get yourself here... big boys and that one. [speaker002:] [reading] If I ruled the world everyone would sing and shout, war and bombs are the things I would throw out. Little children need to starve no more as I would give them a big food store. A house for everyone to live in is something else I would give them. Rain and cold weather would be sent away I would order it to be a hot sunny day. Christmas, Christmas would be twice a year so we could have lots of good cheer. There's lots of things I wouldn't like to do if I ruled the world how about you []? [speaker001:] And who wrote that? [speaker002:] Justine eight. [speaker001:] Eight, thank you... eight... [reading] I believe in love, it comes from above, I believe in Santa Claus, every year he does his chores. I believe in fairies, they flutter like canaries... I believe in make believe and I believe in... what do you believe []? You've had two and a bit examples, a thirteen year old with their questions about life, what's it all for, who put us here and what on earth did they put us here for. An eight year old, if I ruled the world, if I was in charge this is how I would organize things and then and I believe, what I believe in. What I want you to do between now and the end of the lesson, ah, wait for it, in your rough books, ah... I want you to start writing down ideas of the things that are important to you, but before we do that, let's just have a few starters on the board, let's have some hands up. Put your hand up and give me an idea of some of the things you think are important... what do you believe... I believe... do you [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Okay, so would it be fair to say some people would want to put that down? I believe in god... are there any other things, what do you believe? I believe that Mark Hall is the best school in Harlow [speaker002:] Yeah Yeah No [speaker001:] Well okay, some people were a bit iffy about that... What else do you believe in? Shh... Steven doesn't believe in anything... shh... well you're silent [speaker002:] Being silent [speaker001:] Is nothing important to you, don't be smart with me... is nothing important. Is there nothing you would like to organize, is there nothing you would like to change about the world, the planet, think... [speaker002:] People don't have enough food [speaker001:] So what would, how would you like to say that? How can you I believe if, we make an effort... we can give people food. Did you get this, by, by the way did you get the information yesterday about collecting the bar codes? [speaker002:] One and a half million [speaker001:] One and a half million saves a six year old little boy's life in a London hospital. I believe everybody in Mark Hall is capable of achieving that target. There's my box see if you can fill it. Okay let's go back to the I believe, what other things would you like to alter to sort out? [speaker002:] I believe the children should have their way once in a while [speaker001:] Once in a while, once [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] in a while [speaker001:] once, no once, I'm not buying that at all. I believe children, I'm not, I don't like writing this, children er should have, say it again [speaker002:] Have a fair trial [speaker001:] er [speaker002:] a fair trail now and [speaker001:] er, no, a fair [speaker002:] trial now and again [speaker001:] trial or a fair try? Trial [speaker002:] trial [speaker001:] Trial of what? [speaker002:] Always, a fair trial now and again [speaker001:] A fair trial now and again [speaker002:] Every day [speaker001:] No, no [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No, every day, every day [speaker001:] Once er, any more, shh, shh, I'm not writing every day, if you want to alter it you might need to [speaker002:] Children should be able to drive [LAUGHTER] Yes What did he say? Children should be able to drive [speaker001:] What did he say? He said I believe children should be able to drive, I think we are now getting [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah [speaker001:] into the realms of fantasy... erm... just shh, shh, I won't add any more [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I won't add any more to the board because I think you're starting to get the idea, but one or two others I want you to think about, I believe animals should not be experimented upon for make-up, I believe everybody should be treated with respect. That seems reasonable doesn't it, for a Wednesday it seems reasonable. I believe... I believe Mrs when she says she'll jump up and down on my head if I get my homework in late. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I believe... children shh, should not be abused, I believe teachers should not be abused, mm. Now in your rough books please, start listing all things that you would like changed that you believe are right, that you believe [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Shh, shh go on now, start writing... How long have you got to do this? [Steve:] Well I [speaker001:] It's a heck of a time isn't it to let How many of you are involved in doing it? [Steve:] It takes [speaker001:] But it's not your job then to start really so why, why does it go to the next and, so, so these are clear words [Steve:] What, what the aim [speaker001:] Yes, you're never gonna get to college, you're never gonna get A, you're never gonna get your A levels No, no, it's the necessity before, you know, the university of life is a great teacher, you know, but erm take it while you need it, but in the meantime erm there's a great deal more out there. [Steve:] Mm [speaker001:] And while we're on about it why haven't I seen you somewhere oh make my I always think this is February Yes being ill, come back to work until he's [LAUGHTER] So, so, when... [Steve:] Erm Friday [speaker001:] I knew yesterday morning yes and what, what have you got? Those who you're going to I know that when the person who was doing this it wasn't going to be appropriate [Steve:] Yeah that's why it got probably [speaker001:] Mm, it might be that she's got [LAUGHTER] [Steve:] Then when [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It's daft isn't it, yeah [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] How many have you got girls? [speaker002:] One [speaker001:] One, what is it, it'd better be a good one pollution, drug abuse, theft, murder erm the way you're treated by adults, the way we treat one another, equality, no racism, violence, riots, everybody should have a right to an education, everybody should have the right to have their, their teeth filled when they need it, and teachers deserve more pay and more, it's only for instance one... no he left erm he left about two years ago, he's at which I think is that way [Steve:] He must of left just after I did [speaker001:] Yeah and then she left... I think he works part time in a sixth form college [Steve:] there's nothing he can get out of it [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] No that's right, but erm, if you want a coffee [Steve:] No that's alright [speaker001:] Shh, shh, erm I can hear squealers, I believe squealers are working... [speaker002:] Miss... David... [speaker001:] A course but I know that quite often they whenever they hear about they automatically no, not in the least, good, fine, that's lovely, there's no, it's not a... pardon [speaker002:] ... [children talking in class] [speaker001:] Er, judging by the noise I can hear some people have finished, some people have extremely short statements of about what they think is important and some people have got no statements. Who's got... five different things they think they are important, they would like to change, they would like to stay the same, who's got more than five, more than five? Not many, hands down, not enough. Planners out... [speaker002:] Miss are we doing this?... Miss [speaker001:] Yes... this is brilliant my goodness, you come to school and you're doing something brilliant, we can't have that up to fifty, my goodness, you'll be working for a fortnight [speaker002:] No, let David, he, [speaker001:] Right planners, now according to me... this is for... Thursday, next Thursday week t week one Thursday so homework... for Thursday... finish... writing... a list er whoever's giggling will you calm down... of things... you believe... are important... do this in rough... and I think we'd better underline the next bit, bring it to the lesson... now, quite seriously if you have only managed to get five or six items at the moment on your list that you think are important, that's not enough, you really do need to be going for a minimum of ten, and if you can't then the next piece of work that we're going to do in the lesson next week is going to be quite difficult. I'm going to bring in some illuminated medieval books for you to have a look at, because what you're going to do is to write this out in best on special paper using illuminated letters and if you're very good we will try to get them laminated so that we can keep them as an example of what year seven students can produce as their best work, to say to everybody, hey look at this, this is very good, now we can't do that if I give you a sheet of A four paper and you manage to fill less than a quarter of that space, so you're going to need a minimum of ten different things that you would like to say you think are important, you believe are important, you believe they're valuable and your homework over the next week is to finish that list... if you want it to rhyme, well yes you can work on it to make it rhyme, if you want to have what we call rhyming couplet, [shouting] er just one moment []... I haven't said clear away. I have not said clear away, it is not the end of the lesson... and some of you have not worked hard enough to make the end of the lesson... now if you don't want to make the whole poem rhyme, what you might want to do is to put two lines together at a time and have those rhyming, paired rhymes, rhyming couplets, you can do that. And what you might need to start thinking about as well is how could you illustrate some of these, already around you in the room, going up, work from year nine where they have started writing that as a complaint to god, moaning about Hurricane Andrew, about earthquakes and floods and so on and they've decided that they're going to illustrate the work they're doing with these paper cuttings of disasters and problems in the world, there's one up here about a gorilla that's been taken from the wild and is in captivity in London Zoo and they said that they think it's wrong. You need to have a think during the next week about how you can illustrate the lists that you're drawing together, are you going to use newspaper cuttings? Are you going to do your own drawings? Are you going to do photographs? What are you going to do? If you've said you've, that you think you believe... whales and dolphins should not be hunted then perhaps you can find a photograph showing those creatures swimming in the open ocean, something to think about. Are there any questions about that homework?... Is there anyone who doesn't understand what they have got to go home and do?... Are you sure? Speak to me [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Okay, right, one person from each table, will you please bring me the homework graph and the sheet that you filled out, the assessment sheet. One person from each table... yes, thank you... are there any more?... Right can one person from each table please bring me the red files... Boys can I have your red files please... What was that? Was that one of your I believes? What was that?... Er, right, shh... shh... er right people, shh... er you might find that once you start thinking about what you actually believe, it gets quite complicated... I just want you to listen to this. [reading] Dear god, everything is so wrong, look, it took you six days to make the world, but does it say in the bible that it took you fifteen days to design it, oh no you just got up and decided to make the world. When you saw what a disaster you had caused, you could of started again and taken some time, oh sorry I forgot that's not godlike, you probably didn't want to know or is it that you enjoy what you made, a sort of entertainment, better than Home and Away, watching wars and diseases and things. Here are but three mistakes of your career, you would of at least think entering the world would be safe enough, but even that has its dangers. You could be born disabled, diseased or dead. If your so called parents decided to have an abortion that's it, you're history, you never got a chance or a choice. A nice night's sleep seems like a nice change, but nightmares have habits of popping up, once when I was five I had a dream that my friends and I were being ripped apart and eaten by a giant, now when the time comes to go into that great big C D tea room in the sky, could you change something? What have drowning, suffocating, bleeding and being run over by a steam roller got in common? They're all painful [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Could our bodies glow red when we only have a day left so we could all sit down and wait comfortably and then when we snuff it we could just disappear []. And it goes on. Now some of you were nodding there and some of you were smiling, it might be that you actually would quite like to say you know that I believe it's wrong for people to be born disabled, handicapped. That year nine student has got quite a lot to say, has written a very nice letter of complaint to god, bending god's ear, say just one minute god. You need to have a think about those things as well. You did very well this morning, will you quietly stand. [speaker002:] [children standing up] [speaker001:] Okay one table... two table... [speaker002:] David wait up...

[speaker001:] Want me to record already done? [speaker002:] No I'll talk about that in a minute, hello [speaker001:] Do you want a razor blade Jo? [speaker002:] You need a razor blade and a white tail. [speaker001:] Miss this is dead, look at him. [speaker002:] No you'll still be able to do what [speaker001:] This is dead [speaker002:] So this is for What do you want Peg? [speaker001:] A magnifying glass please [speaker002:] Microscope If you use a slight sawing action you You see erm, a hole in the middle and there's like a the smallest lens, and start with it as close as you can to the stage [speaker001:] Miss can you help me set up a microscope please? Where is, where am I? In there In where?... [speaker002:] Start with that as those lens, make sure it's in the right place then look down and then put your thing on there and it should be just the case of turning it off [speaker001:] Okay [speaker002:] Look you just move that round there Gavin remind me to use the lamp, it's in my [speaker001:] Miss Miss are you checking homework? [speaker002:] I will [speaker001:] Testing, testing one two, one two. [speaker002:] I need er to [speaker001:] Is that it? Is that all you've got to do now [speaker003:] I might just do that [speaker001:] Oh it's horrible [speaker002:] You can see the darker red blobs can't you where the, where the water's gone try and get before you do your drawings... [speaker001:] It's still the wrong lens, right lens Is that alright at the sides? I didn't cut this one [speaker002:] When you, when you use the microscope [speaker001:] Miss what shall we call it? [speaker002:] I don't know, but it's not going in [speaker001:] Laura No just do your focus for me [speaker002:] If you look down at it's all round the outside of [speaker001:] Oh Miss I need to talk to you It's a different boy now its not Eddy, Eddy's well under the thumb Miss what's the title? Miss violence [speaker002:] Er, if you're gonna perform you will go out, there is no need [speaker001:] Come on Gary, come on [speaker002:] and what we're doing is collecting like the of all sorts of different places schools, meetings, business meetings to have a record in the English language is right, and to put it all back together to have some sort of record [speaker001:] Dave have you done your er homework for er English? Yes, I done it last night Tony what's this stuff we're using in that one? Miss what's the we were using? [speaker002:] It's the cow parsley [speaker001:] Parsley [speaker002:] I say I usually use celery but I say that grows wild in the school, so we use that [speaker001:] Oh it's raining Is it? We've got netball after school Practice, what? I ain't doing it

[Ken:] So, one final technical point... election expenditure.... Erm... in local elections as again in, in parliamentary or general elections... there's a limit as to what a candidate can spend.... At the moment that limit's a hundred and fifty pound per ward or division.... Plus three pence per vote [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] Er which you might think that again sounds odd and finicky but by the way note I said between w er er it applies to both ward and division. We're aware of that... distinction are we not?... What's a ward?... [speaker002:] Well that's what somebody stands be elected [Ken:] To s for what, to be elected to what? [speaker002:] To the council. [Ken:] What council? [speaker002:] District council.... [Ken:] Good.... What's a division?... [speaker002:] It must be county [Ken:] Correct.... You represent a ward at district council level... or metropolitan council level. You represent a division at county council level. A division is a grouping together of wards.... We have the example in Harlow... I've forgot, how many councils are there in Harlow, thirty six, thirty eight something?... Yeah, it's thirty six isn't it? Got to be because of the election. Erm... they all represent an individual ward. There are I think it is what, four county council Harlow so wards group together to become county council divisions. Yeah? [speaker002:] Where does that word come from, ward?... [Ken:] No-one's ever asked! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Ken:] it's probably Anglo-Saxon. [LAUGHTER]... Okay erm... further election expenditure. Election expenditure is the responsibility of... the political agent.... Oh agents exist in different forms really, erm I'm gonna be, we'll be mentioning the... notion of political agents in central government later er in, in, in ce in general elections later on. Erm but there is a similarity in both er... elections yeah. Anyone standing for election at local government level has to have an election agent.... However you can be your own agent.... The agent has to fill in the financial returns... has to... send in a report of financial expenditure. Normally of course a party will appoint a single agent. In other words, at local election, at local election time... the Conservative Party will have... X candidates standing. There will be a, a Conservative Party appointed agent who will act on behalf of all those candidates and simply fill in the election expenses...... The accounts are submitted to the returning officer. It's an offence to er exceed the er... expenditure.... Okay, now here's something coming up that is... not only conf it's confusing to students, it's even more confusing to er er the general public. And this is what we can... entitle er the electoral sequence.... Big diagram coming up....... Okay at the top of there, eighty four and ninety four, they're years believe it or not.... And down here we've got the... names of the different types of council. At the top, county council... second... metropolitan councils, that is all metropolitan councils... that is of course if you remember, a metropolitan council in the area, in, in the area of the old former Mer Merseyside county council, the metropolitan councils would be Liverpool, Sefton, Wirral..., Saint Helens, Southport, now they're examples of metropolitan er councils. So metropolitan councils, and here's where the confusions begin to creep in... metropolitan councils and some... non-metropolitan councils, I E district councils... so they're in a separate ca separate category with this electoral sequence. Then we have... most... non-metropolitan district councils.... And finally... London boroughs.... Right... before I fill in some of the details on this... again an important point to grasp coming up.... In general elections we, we don't normally know... for sure until a few weeks beforehand what the date of the election is going to be. All you really know about general, about the general election is that it's gotta be held before the end of parliament's statutory life of five years. Yeah? And we had an example of that, a good example this year of course with erm... that in that, in the spring of this year John Major erm... had to call an election before June twentieth I think the date was because by that time then parliament would have automatically been dissolved. Yeah? And John Major chose to er erm... call the election, dissolve, ask for the dissolution of parliament last year and the election took place in er in, in April. [speaker002:] Why does it have to be on a Thursday? [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] It doesn't. [speaker002:] Oh. [Ken:] The general elections? [speaker002:] Mm. [Ken:] It doesn't. [speaker002:] I... I thought it did because that was the only day that wasn't a [Ken:] No. However it just so happens the last time an election wasn't on a Thursday was in er I think it was nineteen thirty one when it was held on a Tuesday. But there is nothing laid down in law whereby it has to be a Thursday. [speaker002:] That was one of the questions on our entrance exam... was [Ken:] What? [speaker002:] what day's general election... held. [Ken:] Mm well the correct answer is... is that normally a Thursday but there is no statutory er obligation that it is Thursday. And indeed in the early part of this century and the nineteenth century elections have been held on Monday, Wednesday... Tuesday... never a Friday, never a Saturday, never a Sunday.... Yeah? It's just one of these common... That's general elections we're talking about by the way. We've slightly digressed but I take your, I take your point. It doesn't have to be a Thursday. It just so happens that for the past sixty years it has been.... No erm it's, it's more recent than that... I think in nineteen fifty the election was on a Tuesday. I think it may, may even be more recent than that. Not that I was there in person.... Well I could have been but I couldn't have voted. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Erm... I was two, that's why. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Ken:] But anyway we've grasped the point that the general elections... it's really down to the prime minister to er er... to ask for the dissolution of parliament and the prime minister will normally a will normally ask for the dissolution of parliament when he or she thinks they've got the best chance of winning. Major's ex example was rather, was rather a good one because he was running out of time. He didn't want local elections held before the general election. He feared what the results might have been from the local elections and he's, he's an example in fact of a prime minister who went into the elections trailing in the opinion polls. It doesn't you know, it's not something you would normally do. Not when you do have a choice.... However let us return to local elections.... Every councillor is elected for a fixed four year term of office.... And we can predict with certainty the date of local elections... because local elections always take place in May.... And they normally occur on the first Thursday in May.... They don't if that Thursday's May the first then it's the second Thursday... but it's normally the first Thursday in May. So we can, we can... you know exactly when a local councillor's term of office is up because it's fixed for four years.... However... and this is why we've got this big diagram coming up... however different councils are elected at different points in the electoral sequence. Each council's elected for four years, but councils aren't all elected at the same time.... I can illustrate... County councils... a dot blank here in eighty four... eighty five an election year for county councils I E Essex County Council... dot dot dot... eighty nine an election year... dot dot dot... and ninety three you'll all be er happy and delirious to know is a county council election year so next May... Thursday... county council elections will be held.... Metropolitan councils, the big city ones... with the exception of London of course and some non-metropolitan councils, out of interest Harlow is amongst those some non- metropolitan councils, this is where the confusion often creeps in.... I'm writing figure ones there... dots blank year... one third... one third... one third... dots, blank year... one third [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] One third [] [Ken:] one third... one third... dots... one third. You'll be amazed to know that the system for this, for elections to metropolitan councils is called the system of election by thirds. What does it mean? It means that one third of the councillors are elected in each of three consecutive years.... Yeah?... And there is a blank year which coincides with county council elections.... Harlow's an example of that. How it's done in practical terms is this... each Harlow ward returns three councillors... yeah? They've all been ele these three councillors have been elected at different, in different years... okay? And so a Harlow councillor who was elected in nineteen eighty eight, yeah? Was up for re-election in May this year, nineteen ninety two. That's one third of them... got it?... [speaker002:] Why do they do that, is it...? [Ken:] Well I'll come on to that in a sec. [speaker002:] Okay. [Ken:] Yeah. It's a good, very good question.... But do we grasp that?... I mean some people are looking at me as though I've just revealed some dread secret [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] the world was gonna [LAUGHTER] end tomorrow [].... Grasp it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Ken:] Like a, a good example the, the the ninety three one, the ninety two one rather this year was a good example because... there was erm a titanic battle in Old Harlow... where the leader of the council Richard was up for re- election. And as you may be aware... that er in, in, in... in the local elections this year, in May, the Conservative Party did dramatically well, much better than it did in the general election... yeah? And so therefore... Richard was, seemed to be... he would be in, he was gonna be in very very grave difficulties in getting re- elected for Old Harlow. Old Harlow's a very interesting ward. Erm it's Old Harlow and Churchgate Street it's in therefore, it's in the wealthiest part of town... but many of the denizens of Old Harlow and erm Churchgate Street are, are sort of st are, are, are I suppose, you know, bourgeois liberals, bourgeois socialists yeah? It's a bit like Hampstead, yeah? It's got two Labour councillors and one Conservative councillor, used to have three Labour councillors. But there was a really big party struggle there... and in Old Harlow erm... Conservatives of course very very confident. Er there was a titanic party battle... but I think the turn out, the local election turn out was over sixty percent which is dramatically high... for local government elections. Erm scraped home by a, by a, by a... small number of votes... yeah? The liberal vote there almost collapsed to nothing... erm while the liberals obviously voted labour tactically in order to prevent the Conservatives from A grabbing the ward, and B erm removing the leader of the council which would have been, which is what they were obviously angling for.... Erm it comes back to the point which has just been made about the er, about the erm... why have this system of election by thirds and almost backfired on, on, on, on the leader of the council... yeah? So that's er that's the system by thirds. One third of the councillors in each of three consecutive years are up for re-election.... And there's a blank year in county council here. Of course it's not a blank year for the hard pressed voters of Harlow... because they're all voting in the county council elections then for the, for the number of, for the, for the er county councillors who represent at Harlow erm at County Hall... in Chelmsford. [speaker002:] Have there ever been surveys done erm to see how many people actually understand [Ken:] Yes. [speaker002:] the system? [Ken:] Yes. [speaker002:] And how many do? [Ken:] Not many. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] It's not surprising. [Ken:] Mm. People get very confused by it. [speaker002:] Mm. [Ken:] And they don't figure... they, they get more confused when the county council elections come up in ninety three. Yeah? It's even more confusing cos some systems of... by thirds I think they go, they go on wards... there's some wards don't have an election... one year, when the neighbouring one does. Do you see what I mean? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Yeah.... [speaker002:] Are there any limits to how many times you can stand... for councillor? [Ken:] Well, apart from death [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] I mean my erm... my, my uncle... getting familiar about this, yes? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] My erm... my uncle Jo yes? After whom a huge block of flats in Liverpool is named after, yeah? Morgan Heights, yeah? Not to be confused with [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] He er, he stood down as erm as a, as a er Labour councillor in, in Liverpool in Walton er ward... what are we in now, nineteen ninety two... in nineteen... ninety... or ninety one, yeah ninety one... at the age of eighty... six [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] and he'd been a Liverpool councillor off and on for over fifty years.... Twice refused the offer of the parliamentary seat at Walton.... Anyway... most non-metro district councils... oh by the way, sorry... and parishes... I always. We always forget about the poor parish council don't we?... They, like the county councils, go in for what's known as the poll council system as opposed to the system of election by thirds. That is, just as a county council in eighty five, all the councillors are up for re-election... just as in a parliamentary general election, yeah? In eighty seven all the councillors of most district councils are up for election. So if you go up the road to Epping... their elections take up all the councillors that are elected together.... Eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety... ninety one... There's a, again a possibly interesting link here with general elections... erm eighty three of course was a, was a er... an election year for non-metropolitan... er... district councils yeah?... It's just, it's just off our little chart there.... Those elections take place in May right? In May eighty three and again in May eighty seven... Margaret Thatcher chose to go to the country the month after those elections.... June eighty three and June eighty seven. Four in, in both those occasions she was four years into her term of office. Elected first in seventy nine... and then obviously in eighty three. And what happened in eighty three and eighty seven of course was that the local elections take place... the Conservative party managers analyzed the results, fed them through the computers... and you could come up with the fact that you would, looked like you were set to win a general election. And so therefore the local elections were seen as a pointer to the general elections. Why? Because it also happens, it happens to be the case that in local elections people tend to vote on national issues or perceptions. They don't vote on local issues. Local elections just tend to be national... reflect the national concerns, issues or reflects the unpopularity of the government pa of the governing party or whatever, yeah. You don't tend to vote on purely local issues. one of the reasons for introducing the community charge that and it's ironic that it was just possible, especially in nineteen erm ninety erm that the community charge was meaning wa was bringing about a change where people were voting on local issues, the prime local issue of course being what would be the level of the, of the community charge.... And that was one of the justifications of bringing it in, that it would raise a sense of er it would raise erm the actual percentage of people voting in elections and it would make local issues er... more pertinent at local elections. We will never know how that would develop because community charge has been abolished but anyway... You will note of course as well that last year in nineteen ninety one, the Conservative Party managers looked at the local election result and decided not to go in June ninety one, cos they figured they would get beaten.... [speaker002:] Surely if the erm turn out is er erm doesn't really [Ken:] It's much big it's a, it's it's a, it's an incredibly... wide sample opinion poll. Because we're talking millions of voters... yeah. If you get a forty percent turn out... in a local elect within England yeah? If you get a forty percent turn out in England and Wales, we're talking many millions of voters. And when you think that the biggest opinion poll samples are what... five, ten thousand? So it's pretty, it's, it's a much more accurate guide than any opinion poll.... Erm again I, I can't help but s er er getting slightly digressed but it is rather interesting... that... John Major this year decided to go for a general election before the local elections. The advice was was not to hang on and see what the May elections er looked like. Couple of reasons, one was on a much smaller sample... yeah? But B of course if you did badly in those elections [LAUGHTER] in May []... the government might have done badly in May, then morale would have been rock bottom of having to go into an election, he would have had to go for an election six weeks later or they'd run out of time, yeah. But the real... the real glorious irony I think that cheers up erm psephologists like me, political analysists, is that in those May elections... the Conservatives did dramatically well compared to what they'd done in the general election. In the general election they'd won it, but their majority was down. In the local elections... their share of the vote was and they did very very well. Why?... Anyone possess any theories about that? [speaker002:] They were reflect they were reflecting national issues erm like the... [Ken:] Well... did it really have time to do that? [speaker002:] just on a, were just on a general high anyway after the election results. Yeah. [Ken:] There's that fact that the Conservatives were on a high of course.... I mean these local elections only took place what, erm... four weeks after the general election, the Conservatives were on a high and conversely therefore you could say that what?... [speaker002:] Labour voters are gonna be disillusioned [Ken:] Labour Labour voters were er to say the least dis [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] disappointed I think is more the, is the word rather than disillusioned isn't it? Disappointed.... [speaker002:] Gutted. [Ken:] Yes, possibly gutted is the better word, right. But there's another interesting fact that as well erm and it's borne out, I know opinion polls had a rather bad erm er er got a bad press in the general election er because they weren't very accurate and it was odd this because their, their accuracy levels had becoming er had, had, had been becoming... frighteningly er accurate... say in eighty seven... you know? But... they take opinion polls all the time, I mean shortly after the recent general election they were taking opinion polls a week later. They d they do it all, they do it throughout the year we just, we just don't... there's just not so many of them, and we don't read about them so much as we do before big elections.... The point is this, after a general election... the party that's won, it's share of the vote in the most, in, in the, in the opinion poll taken most immediately after the election... it goes up, it's higher than actually what it gets in the general election. Why? This is just purely a human... fact. [speaker002:] People want to be associated with a winning team don't they? [Ken:] A cigar and a coconut over there, yeah. There's a tendency to associate yourself with the winning, with the winner.... Yeah? And people who might even have voted Labour, or Lib Dem at the general election, at the first opinion poll they'll say they vote Conservative.... So it's strange but it's er... [LAUGHTER] maybe it's not so strange [] [speaker002:] Why do you think get it so horribly wrong this time round in the general election? [Ken:] I beg your pardon? [speaker002:] How did, why did the erm... opinion polls just get it so horribly wrong this time round? [Ken:] Well they've come up with a lot of theories haven't they. Erm one the reluctance of many Conservative voters to reply to opinion polls for s some reason. Two erm erm in some areas erm people are just bloody minded... and say they're gonna vote one way the oth the other. There's n it's an interesting fact that as well that erm opinion polls are very often, it depends what the question you're asked and... when, when, when during elections people are asked... are you prepared to s to have either A lower taxes or B spend more, higher taxes and spend more on the national health service, well people always say oh yeah, oh yeah fine. I want every possible penny spent on the national health service, they don't want to be thought like Attila the Hun, yeah well, something like that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] So when you're asked... do you believe that the entire gross national product should be spent on the N H S people say yes... yes of course [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] cos they don't wanna be, cos it seems bad but when, when they're in the, when they're in the ballot box, when, when they're in the voting booths and then they're faced with the question then, do they want [speaker002:] Yeah. [Ken:] pay more, when it comes to the crunch Erm so th that's a factor. The other factor as well was the high turn out in the election. The turn out in the recent, in the, in the April election was very high. It was what, seventy eight percent over all, and in, and in a large, very large individual constituencies you were seeing turn out in the eighties. Eighty six percent in a couple, eighty four percent. And if you think about it you can't get a much bigger turn out than that. Cos if, if about eight percent of the people don't have to vote anyway... some people aren't gonna vote.... You can't really get much higher turn out than about eighty four percent, eighty five percent... in practical terms. Lot of people aren't there and they haven't bothered to get a postal vote cos they're on holiday or whatever you know.... So the high turn out was a factor I think in, in, in the opinion polls. It galvanized lots, lots of Conservative voters quite simply thought they were gonna lose... so they went out and voted. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [Ken:] Well I, I mean now that doesn't sound, that's not such a... an Irish statement as it sounds, actually. In eighty three, when it was obvious that the Conservatives were gonna win... because then if you, if, this is history now, but the Labour Party was led by Michael Foot then, it was... it was in no shape to win the election in erm... the Conservatives were, were led by Thatcher, she was on a high after the Falklands War, the Conservatives... romped home. In fact er they should have done a lot better, but a lot of Conservative voters didn't bother going out to vote cos it was a foregone conclusion.... Yeah.... Sounds remarkable but it's erm... it's true. Okay and finally erm are London boroughs erm... yeah... blank blank, eighty six election... and the next London borough elections will be in nineteen ninety four so they've been in nineteen eighty six, nineteen ninety... and nineteen, they will next be in nineteen ninety four.... So... it's argued of course that this... electoral sequence, especially... election by thirds... is a reason for public confusion about local government.... It's also a reason for the public confusion about who does what.... Again especially in conjunction with our system of election by thirds. The people in in, in districts like that, they seem to be perennially voting, forever voting... and in the blank year they're voting for county council elections.... Or they're voting in county council elections.... Now the question was raised earlier... what is the justification of this system of election by thirds? By the way erm... for non-metro districts they can choose... whether they can have election by thirds or not, and you do occasionally get r you do occasionally you can get, get very occasional examples of a, of a dis of a district council opting to switch from one to the other. Again I've forgotten the entire erm... it's not easy, er th the rather complicated rigmarole about this erm er... the great man comes to my rescue as usual... Burn.... He says [reading] a local authority can apply to change the electoral system at any time [] I E a district council [reading] but not more than once every ten years. And there must be a sixty percent majority vote at the council meeting in support of the proposal []. So you can vote to change, Harlow could vote to switch to a whole council system.... But it would need a sixty percent vote on the council, and once they'd do made the switch, they couldn't switch back to a system by thirds for ten years.... Yeah?... As I say I, a couple of years ago an authority did do that, it swapped. It does, does occasionally happen.... So... what is the justification of the system?... Well its supporters say that it's... it's justified on the grounds of democracy.... What they mean by that is... is that the council is in close touch with public opinion.... They also argue in favour of it on grounds of continuity... s so the two arguments here are one, democracy... and one... continuity.... On the continuity point their argument is that under the system of election by thirds, you don't see a dramatic... switch in the party control of the council. Or a dramatic switch in councillors themselves as you sometimes get in whole council elections.... In a whole council election... er if... if the ruling party is massively behind in the opinion polls, then large numbers of them will be swept out of office and the opposition will get in, and the argument is that then you see a a... you see a suddenly see then a reversal of policies. Whereas a system by thirds means that it's unlikely that the council... or at least a lot of councils, will suddenly have a quick switch around and you'll get a greater continuity of policy. I think it's a rather confused argument but perhaps [speaker002:] If you, if you have elections every year and it's a quite tight one you could get a different party in power each year, you could change it each year couldn't you? [Ken:] You, yeah... er er yes I'd er... you're quite right, at the moment I'm just in a sense presenting the the pr you know the arguments of those in favour, we, we'll, we'll, we'll make this point in a second, yeah. This, these are the arguments they present, I mean I... I'm not inclined to, I'm, I'm inclined to think they're somewhat bogus these arguments... but the argument of continuity is there. On this er er further to this point about continuity they make the point as well that a system of election by thirds makes it more difficult for the officers of the authority to dominate the councillors.... Because you're not gonna get such an influx of new... councillors, yeah? People who haven't been on a council before.... This is the argument that suggests that senior officers are rather like Sir Humphrey figures in Yes Minister, who take the view that there's nothing wrong with the government except for all these elected clowns that clutter the place up [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] and get in the way... and if only the Civil Service could run the place then it would be a lot better. And you get a similar view of that very often by senior officers in authorities.... One, one suspects with some authorities they, they've got more justification for referring to these elected clowns that get in the way.... [speaker002:] What proportion of councils opt for a third system? [Ken:] Thank you, good question, I forgot to mention it didn't I? Yeah. Erm the figure is... there are, as we all know... how many district councils are there?... Non-metropolitan district councils... [speaker002:] Hundreds. [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Yes, there are hundreds, about how many hundred?... [speaker002:] Several hundred [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Several, mm. [speaker002:] Three hundred and thirty [Ken:] Three hundred and thirty three [speaker003:] Oh of course. [Ken:] yes.... So there are three hundred and thirty three non- metropolitan district councils. Erm of them... two o five... opt for the whole council system. And therefore by a mighty feat of arithmetic we come up with the figure of what, one hundred and twenty eight... go for the system by thirds.... [speaker002:] It is a third. Yeah, [LAUGHTER] it's a third []. [LAUGHTER]... [Ken:] The argument against the system of election by thirds of course the arguments against are roughly these... one, an obvious argument, is that it is conf it, it's confusing to the public... the system of election by thirds is confusing.... It's also argued as well, rather counter to the... proponents of election by thirds... that it's undemocratic.... Good example in ninety two... if Harlow council had been a whole er whole council election in nineteen ninety two... it's highly likely the Conservatives would have taken control.... But they couldn't do that because only one third of the councillors were up for election.... Do you see what I mean? So it's argued that it's frustrating to the er... to the electant... It's also argued as well that the frequency of elections tends to produce lower turn outs.... Yes I, I, I'm inclined to go along with that to some extent, I remember once er I think it was eighty four, because in eighty four... or was it eighty four?... When were the last European elections?... [speaker002:] Eighty eight. Eighty seven [Ken:] No. [speaker002:] eighty nine. [Ken:] Eighty nine. It was eighty nine wasn't it? Yeah. Eighty four yeah. I remember in eighty four erm there'd been a general election in eighty three erm... there'd been one third elections in Harlow in, in, in erm... i i i in eighty three, there was er a gen the general election and another system of election by thirds in eighty four and then the European election... being told by one el elderly lady that there were too many bleeding elections and [LAUGHTER] therefore she wasn't gonna vote []. But there is that again a confusion... So a target that perhaps election by thirds reduces public interest, possibly reduces turn out. It's, it's not, perhaps it's no accident... er maybe those or other factors that you do tend the lowest turn outs in metropolitan... districts... the big city districts.... And there's a not inconsiderable point as well that exp it's expensive.... Because these elections have to be organized... three years running.... And who pays for it? The community charge pays.... There's a tendency erm... as well to suspect that one reason why many non-metro districts have election by thirds is that they are generally more urban ones... and the reason why they go for it is to keep the party machine in a permanent state of electioneering readiness.... So we could, one c er the argument there is is that the party political argument in favour of election by thirds.... By the way er we may er be gratified to know that erm... thankfully Labour lost the ninety eighty seven election but in, in it's manifesto in nineteen eighty seven Labour proposed annual elections in local government. [speaker002:] Hm. [Ken:] I don't... recall, well in fact I'm being sarcastic because I know for a, we know that it wasn't in the [LAUGHTER] manifesto [] for nineteen ninety two.... What the impact of annual elections for local government would be on turn out is difficult to say. I suspect disastrous.... But I might be wrong, perhaps I'm being too cynical.... Two very brief points here, voting turn out... and voting patterns. We can make a very simple point here, voting turn out in local elections is lower than in general elections, yeah?... Turn out in local elections is approximately forty percent,... that figure is covering all local elections.... And it's a U K average figure as well, but we're talking about forty percent. You've got variations. You get higher turn out in non- metropolitan districts than you do in county council or in metropolitan district elections.... You get low, you get low turn out in, in, in... in inner city areas where the metropolitan districts tend to er tend to be.... So the average vote in local elections is round about forty percent. Turn out in general elections... mid to high seventies. As we've said the most recent election turn out was what, seventy eight percent... highest for twenty years.... Erm... voting patterns, not much to say really on this erm if you want to read up on this there's a little sect rather interesting section in Burn on this... in his chapter on local government elections. Who is most likely to vote in local elections? Well the people who are most likely to vote in local elections tend to be the people who in greater numbers, if you see what I mean, are more likely to vote in, in general elections. Or, to put it another way, the people most likely to vote full stop.... The person most likely to vote is a white, middle class, middle aged male home owner.... I suppose conversely from that you might construe then that the person least likely to vote... would be a black... female... working class... tenant.... There's some truth in that.... Owner occupation seems to be a factor in more greater readiness to vote. That may be significant because of course owner occupation has increased quite significantly in recent years... to the great regret of many [LAUGHTER] many of the home o of the occupiers I mean.... And whichever way we look at the figures though, there is an unpreparedness to vote in local government elections. There are exceptions to this... I would suggest that... very high turn outs... in the er local election, local elections in Harlow... almost certainly because there was a lot of interest in it... press interest... because of the great battle in Old Harlow and that appears to have had a spin off effect on turn out in the other wards as well. [speaker002:] What exactly do you mean by unpreparedness? [Ken:] By? [speaker002:] Unpreparedness. [Ken:] Well, the fact that... in a general election situation, people will go out and vote. In local elections they won't. If, er if I was... to further refine that I would argue quite strongly that a lot of people see it as their duty to vote in general elections... mm? Erm... they don't take that attitude to local government elections.... By the way it's not just local government elections... European elections as well.... I mean turn out in the er in, in... in er er European elections was er... in nineteen eighty four it was thirty two percent... and in nineteen er eighty nine, thirty seven percent. So less people vote in Euro elections than vote in local elections.... The question is of course why? You get much higher turn out in local government elections in western Europe,we western European states than you do in Britain.... Why are people less prepared to vote in local government elections than they are in general elections?... Let's throw it open.... [speaker002:] Well people don't understand the system... and they don't think that things will affect them. [Ken:] Yeah.... Yeah I think that... yeah. They're both good points, especially the latter one that people don't particularly think that, that a change in local government will affect them.... Could we go further and suggest why they think that? [speaker002:] got enough power. [Ken:] Yes... I think there's a tendency to take the view that basically local authorities simply administer... and does it really matter who's in power at the town hall.... Now erm... well let, let me start again... people think okay, if... the Conservatives win, win control alright it might be another fifty pence on night class at the er at the, the college you know, something... something like that... erm it might mean... erm a few redundancies in the town hall and a greater level of privatization... but s but people tend to think well so what... so long as the bins are getting emptied. Mm? And after all, much of what local authorities do is what?... Well perhaps I've phrased it wrong, much of what local authorities actually undertake... is what? [speaker002:] What government wants. [Ken:] Or even more... you're on the right track, yeah. But it's more than what government wants [speaker002:] Dictates. [Ken:] it's more than, it's what the government dictates. Most of what local authorities do is in a sense not really party politically controversial because they've got... because most of the things they do they've got to do, they're mandated to do.... In other words, you couldn't stand for office in Harlow and say for instance erm if... erm if we er win the election we're gonna stop the sale of council houses.... Yeah? This is say Labour speaking. Or we're gonna... we're gonna spend on house building all our capital receipts, cos they can't do it.... Yeah? Essex County Council, the Conservatives couldn't run for office there and say if we're elected we intend to er privatize the entire education system and stop financing it. Because they can't. At the moment the law makes the, the law obliges them to do A B C and prevents them from doing X Y Z.... So the spin off on the electorate is perhaps well, does it really matter?... Now community charge may have made a difference... but... what, what did government do about that to s in a sense ironically to go against one of their... one of the, one of the most basic principles of bringing it in?... I mean community charge was a factor in the nineteen ninety London borough elections, but in nineteen ninety the Conservative Party was doing very badly in opinion polls. This is just a few months before the overthrow of Margaret Thatcher. But in nineteen ninety in London not only did they hold on, they won dramatic victories in a number of London boroughs.... Wandsworth where they only had a majority of one, they they... they they destroyed the Labour Party.... Cos there they had a stark choice then... of voting for erm a very low... community charge and potentially voting for a very high community charge. And most people chose a low one.... But what did, but the government in a sense... even... even ended that as a viable choice by doing what?... [speaker002:] Erm rate capping [Ken:] Charge capping, yeah, yeah. One, charge capping which prevents authorities from putting their community charge to over a certain level and two, Lamont's famous budget. [speaker002:] Well he, he took it down by a certain amount by putting onto VAT. [Ken:] He put it on VAT. So in a sense community charge was being watered down as a factor... by the state taking over payment in a sense. [speaker002:] I don't, I don't I mean I don't quite agree with what you're saying cos you seem to be saying whatever party's in power in local government it's gonna be exactly the same [Ken:] No I'm not saying [speaker002:] same sort of direction continue to do the same sort of things. [Ken:] Yeah I I I'm acting as devil's advocate in a sense. I mean these are factors which are given... which are trotted out as reasons. It's, look we've got a problem haven't we, the problem is there's low, there's persistently low turn out in local government elections. You've got a couple of, you get blips... you got a blip in nineteen ninety... on the community charge when you got a high turn out in London boroughs especially, yeah? [speaker002:] Mm. [Ken:] In other areas where community charge is not such a factor you don't get it. But we're still, we're still stuck with the problem, if it is a problem, of persistently low turn out for local government elections. And what I've said is I, I am in a sense acting as devil's advocate. It's it's it's... in giving reasons for that. And you're quite right, I mean it might be argued that there are big issues in local government still. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Ken:] Whether they build... a new recreation centre... whether old people have free passes. It might mean, it prob er I suppose in a sense that doesn't matter very much to me... but I suppose it might matter if you're [LAUGHTER] sixty yeah []... yeah. But nevertheless, agreeing with you to some extent, there are issues in local government, there are issues... but s even so people don't vote. [speaker002:] Well it's, it's probably in... tory newspapers not to marginalize local authorities. [Ken:] [LAUGHTER] But it's always been the case [].... You know I mean we, we look, I mean it's inter one of the reasons for the nineteen seventy two reform you know... one of, one of the er... factors in it was to attempt to raise levels of participation in local government... by making it more understandable. [speaker002:] Hm. I mean what are the essential differences between European local erm county systems and and [Ken:] Well... yeah and there's a couple of factors, one is a good they may er er some of them have got more power, yeah? Some of them are on a bigger level. There's another interesting factor as well, there's a greater participation of national things... in local government in, in, in... a number of European states. Erm for instance er Jacques Chirac leader of the erm,o of the erm U D F in France... what is he also? [speaker002:] Mayor of Paris. [Ken:] Yeah, yeah. And you'll find even Mitterand is actually the... the mayor of some little arrondissement somewhere you know, some little of housing. Yeah.... There's a more, there's a greater link... between national figures and local government. Ditto in the United States of course.... You know, I mean a, a springboard for running for er president is being... being governor. Ronny Reagan was governor in California, Bill Clinton is governor of Arkensaw. These are in a sense, [LAUGHTER] although they're pretty big [], they're in a sense local government type... positions.... So you know I mean... erm... you've got evidence from the Widdicombe er survey which produced the Widdicombe report. These are just examples of er of of... of question of answers to questions... Burn asks the question which I've just asked, why then does low turn out persist, cos he's just made the point above... that there are big issues in local government. There are issues of spending, there are issues of building... there are issues of direction of the pa of, of the, of the authority... yeah? Erm Widdicombe quotes some people... they're all the same so what's the point?... Erm... sixty six percent of people believe that the people you vote for say they'll do things for you but once they're in they forget what they've said. Others blame the complexity of the system.... Confusion caused by the voting system.... Of course, to wrap this up, I suppose there's one other fact that perhaps... the low votes in local government could be seen as w either two things depending on whether you're an optimist or a pessimist I suppose it's, it's a bit of the argument like if you've got a half gla and is your glass half empty or [LAUGHTER] is your glass half full [] you know? Erm one argument is is that people are making a deliberate and adverse comment on local government by not voting.... They're in a sense voting with their feet, or not voting with their feet you know they're not, they're not voting, yeah. Erm... course on the other hand... the optimists could say well the reason why people don't bother voting is cos they're all pretty happy with local government. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] Wonderful art politics isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm. [Ken:] These are these wonderful arguments where you pays your money and you takes your choice.... Mm. Both could be true.... Both could be true. But... it would be ala I think people would be alarmed if turn out for central government dropped to forty percent.... Turn out in general elections.... I mean the lowest turn out in any of the constituencies in, in the general election was much higher than the turn out in local government, I think the lowest turn out in any individual constituency was about fifty four percent in the general election.... And that's significantly higher than the local government turn out. [speaker002:] If we become like, like more part of Europe, if Europe gets more power than er then parliament would have less power well the same thing could happen in the erm central government elections as well couldn't it? [Ken:] Could well be yeah, yeah. If yeah that's an interesting point. If say for instance one moved headlong down the road to European political union and Westminster ended up with something like the powers of... Puddlewick District Council [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] then... possibly turn out in general elections would be low. Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ken:] We'll wait and see.... Okay...

[Danny:] Did I tell you what's on my desk downsta, I told you didn't I?... I didn't take did I?... What's on my desk downstairs right at this moment? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] You'll like this! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Is that sealed? I bet you're right.... What is on my desk at this moment? Two Abel Barder's books. [speaker002:] Oh yeah. [Danny:] Isn't that sad?... Isn't that sad?... And I'm actually admitting publicly that there are two Abel Barder's books on my desk downstairs!... And I had a.... And you think... it's sad?... I'm a bit worried you!... You've gone over all quiet!... [LAUGHTER] I don't think [].... Just not sure of.... [LAUGHTER] I thought of Christine []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] making it []! [Danny:] Oh, I meant to bring that with me! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Which has a complication.... And. [Danny:] We'll do the questions and answers today children! [LAUGHTER]... Right!... Stuart!... Mister!... You're very quiet there Stuart!...... Chris [speaker003:] Yeah! [Danny:] as long as your enthusiastic about being here! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] That's why I like!... Actually that might spring better.... Tracey. [speaker003:] Oh! Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Get it right!... Ann. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] Hello!... Good!... Daniel! [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Danny:] Congratulations! Sooner or later! Jonathan! [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] He's scra... you sa, you said that without moving your lips!... That was brilliant! [speaker003:] I know,. [Danny:] And Jason. [speaker003:] Yep. [Danny:] And Matthew.... Matthew without a voice!... Kenton...... and Joe! [speaker003:] Yeah! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] And Steven. [speaker003:] On holiday. [Danny:] I'll fool them, I'll lock that door! [speaker003:] Oh! [Danny:] He always comes in that way doesn't he? [speaker003:] Ha! [LAUGHTER] []! [Danny:] Right people!... Two things to... do with you today mainly... one is to... whip through... at least part of the isomers work... and, I say part of it because... you'll be coming back to other parts of it a bit later on... when you've, for example,... we'll coming back to erm,... isomers work.... And at various stages during the organic you'll also be coming to... what we call optical isomers.... What I need to do is to go through them with you and make sure you fully understand what they... what their origins are etcetera... because isomers we base the questions are very very common... so I'll be able to talk about marks.... And what do marks make? [speaker002:] Prizes. [Danny:] Prizes, yes... a prize of that little envelope says... whoopee you have passed! It doesn't actually say that, it just gives a... but if you say whoopee I have passed. Not me, cos I've already passed, but you.... Yes. [speaker003:] Are you... gonna do passing? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, I want to go through isomerism and then go straight onto the... erm... e, go strai... glad you made, a bit late but er [speaker003:] I thought it was?... Sorry. [Danny:] You think it might be?... Actually, actually it's a good one!... Michael, now that is a superstar! [speaker003:] Mm. Mm mm. [Danny:] Er... some of you won't understand that.... Are you a superstar? [speaker003:] I don't think so but.... [Danny:] He's fa, he's famous!... Fame, he's on the poster!... Quite genuine! [speaker003:] You are serious? [Danny:] Absolutely ge, Stuart is that true? That, Stuart never lies!... He's going to Cambridge so never lies! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Is that true? [speaker003:] No. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Sorry!... Right, so, let's go over isomers and then start on the hydro-carbons in some detail and pi... the first mechanism, we're talking about mechanisms general as well.... As far as mechanistic is concerned you haven't got to do an awful lot.... There are only about six mechanisms you actually need to know.... One of those... you've already met in detail in terms of kinetics as that was the idea of reaction... wasn't it Chris? [speaker003:] Yep. [Danny:] Yep!... The other one also came up in kinetics... and that's this business of... nucleus... [LAUGHTER]... nuclear filmic substitution. [speaker003:] That's. Yeah. [Danny:] Sorry? [speaker003:] . [Danny:] That side you get the filleca take that's right, [LAUGHTER] Yes []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] More. [Danny:] sume, assume.... Erm... alright, it's alright Chris... it's alright! It's all beyond you Chris, I know! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It would be easier, be easier [Danny:] It's all beyond me at the moment as well!... Right, so, if I just start on... isomers across the board.... Now, you must remember, in the link sheet... make sure you back up whatever you're getting here. Make sure you back it up with the exercises.... And, of course, you do have to log it, one of those various exercises and so on.... If you don't log it... I'll assume you haven't... and can I point out to you there's parent's evening coming up very soon, thank you very much!... And I'll have a chance yet again, to talk to your mummies and daddies before yo... you actually take your final exams. [speaker003:] What happens if you kill your mummy and daddy? [Danny:] Pardon? [speaker003:] What if you kill your mummy and daddy? [Danny:] If you kill your mummy and daddy I'll have to talk to you Peter! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] You better resuscitate them. [Danny:] It's far better to erm... keep your mummies and daddies live... or at least, you know, do a psycho job!... With the stuff that we! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Ma... already []! ! [Danny:] Right... children!... First of all... Tracey... you can have the first opportunity to show how little you know. [speaker003:] Sorry, this, it on here. [Danny:] Sorry.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right yo [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Oh no, mustn't!... How your knowledge is in millimetres, no I mustn't use millimetres! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Makes up the usual thing []! [Danny:] She's had a lot to drink!... She's had a lot of off me today.... That's, ah, she's she's took it well!... She's not talking to me mind, but she's took it well!... Right... if I put the word [speaker003:] Shit! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Erm... thank you! [speaker003:] The word.... [Danny:] By the word I describe what does that suggest to you Trace?... Er... speak nicely cos [speaker003:] Because [Danny:] you're being recorded! [speaker003:] It's a like er... using the same components but... put together in a different way.... Like different No! different ways of [LAUGHTER] putting... it's hard to explain.... []. It's this Karma Sutra that is! [Danny:] But no [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] that was a good try Tracey! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] That's a good try! Emma.... Let's get the other half of the female... vote.... Don't suck your thumb dear!... It's so! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Erm [Danny:] What's an isomer? [speaker003:] It's something about Haven't got a clue! [Danny:] No this is quite serious now! [speaker003:] No... I don't really know.... Erm [Danny:] Choose somebody... Emma. [speaker003:] Daniel. Oh shit! [Danny:] Danny, I was right.... Your turn Daniel, what's an isomer? [speaker003:] It's... it's got the same nuclear format. [Danny:] Right, first of all... they're compounds... make sure you take these down please. Compounds with the same molecular formula.... And obviously therefore, cos they... obviously therefore, they've got the same improvements on here as well. They're the same molecular formula... but... now what's the but, Chris?... Daniel's done the hard bit... for you... what's the but? [speaker003:] You've got imperfect ones... that doesn't match... erm [Danny:] I just said they had the same molecular formula [speaker003:] Oh right. [Danny:] Christopher! [speaker003:] Er... [Danny:] The same molecular formula but let's put a word in for you.... Different [speaker003:] Structures. [Danny:] Er... yeah, okay.... Let's, let's say different structural formulae.... In other words, the atoms are actually arranged... in a different way. They're bonded together in different ways.... Now, there's two main classes of isomerism... and don't just exclude... er, or don't just include... organic... isomers... cos we ge... get organic isomers as well.... You get occurring in yo, in your organic.... Especially actually.... And you'll meet some of them... when we actually do that area.... But generally there are two... main... classes of isomerism that we deal with... and very much like, like the classification on hydro-carbons that I did, there's a whole variety of ways they can be classified... that you've seen. This is just one model. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] This seems to work well... most seem to fit into it nicely.... First of all, we have... what we call... structural isomers, a whole group... of structural isomers.... And then we have a group of two... which are described as... stereo isomers.... Now, the thing about those two words... what do you think, stereo isomers is all about, without actually saying a specific type of isomer? What does it tend to suggest? [speaker003:] What is it. [Danny:] Nope! [speaker003:] Two forms at once.... More than one form of... isomer. [Danny:] Well that's for the isomers anyway isn't it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] I know what you're saying.... You're getting close... cos you're concentrat, or you should be concentrating on the wo, on the part of the word, stereo. [speaker003:] Oh! . Simultaneously. [Danny:] No, not really.... It's all about space.... If I stereo isomers have a similarity... in that... they exist because of spatial... aspects.... And you'll come to understand exactly what I mean by that... it's all about three dimensional space.... Where structural isomers are literally what the word suggests... they have different structures... different ways of linking the atoms together........ But the stereo isomers are all about... three dimensional space, that's how they tend to differ... as you'll see.... Let's start the structural isomers, and we can use this as an opportunity to... look at some aspects of the.... Now, you should all still be working through the... on a continuous basis.... I am aware... that, I am aware of actually two people in the second year who have never used it so far.... Now, those two people or others who haven't used it much... you really must get into this disc! It's the easy way to learn... or it's easy, it's easy way to understand... and then learn the megiture.... You have to have a stu, a good familiarity with organic momegiture... if you don't, you could be throwing marks away... even before you get in that exam room!... Cos there will be aspects where you will have to use momegiture.... That they ask you specific questions of that naming... it's a multi-choice... more importantly in your written answers... you will have to... in, you are expected to include... and correct systematic ohms for any organics that you deal with.... Plus, of course, it means you're gonna go back in that direction... so if they say... something like erm... two chlorapropane active with... you need to be able to get structural formula from that name.... So you really have got to get to grips with it!... They're something you should be using right the way up to the... to the actual exams.... And, there's at least eight discs available at the present time, and more could be made available.... Not for your own use I hasten to add!... They've set up, increased the numbers of discs in the library... in the workshop... er, there's no increasing them up here cos there's, we need to buy a computer, but certainly up and in the workshop... and in the library.... You must hit it on a regular basis!... It's the easiest way to get to grips with it.... And those of yo... you who've been doing it for some time... will now realise... how easy it has made the momegiture.... You learning without even realising you're learning it.... Right, so let's start the structural, now there's a whole range of different types of structural isomers.... Position... positional isomers... branch chain... functional group... and there's one other odd one which has a very peculiar name... and the name it normally goes by is a fairly old name, now I'm not sure at this stage if that name is still used... but what I'll do is to describe... the form of the isomerism first... and let you decide what you would... prefer to call it.... In fact,i it does suggest... one of these other types of these isomerism... depends how you view... a functional group.... But I'll tell you the name that is used, or was used afterwards, but I don't know if that name is still used... I certainly haven't seen it in a text book in years!... But it is a genuine form... of isomers... but you may like to include into one of the others.... Well... that's entirely up to you, but... we'll see how we go with that.... Right, let's start with position isomerism. Now, position isomerism is all about the position of the groups... or the position of functional groups... so it's not just necessarily groups on their own... it could be functional groups. Now, I've made a distinction between those, in other words... a group maybe a methile group... now, methile group is not a functional group... it's not something that dictates the properties of a compound, necessarily.... And the influences... that doesn't dictate... and a functional group does.... Where as a functional group might be, for example, a no age group... which does tend to dictate the properties of that compound.... So there is a difference between using the word group and functional group.... Also... now I tend, as you've... probably come to realise... I've tended to include... specific types of bonding arrangements... as a functional group... for example, I call... a carbon carbon double bond, I call that a functional group... for the simple reason that that arrangement of bonds dictates... the principle properties of those compounds... and in that context I'm then using the word group a bit more liberally... instead of saying it's a group of atoms... which dictate... the properties... I'll say it's a group of atoms or... it's a special grouping of electrons, which dictate the properties.... Yeah?... And so did yo, can you see the difference between those?... So there's all those sorts of possibilities.... Now, let's look at some examples and... get you to name some of them as well.... Positional isomerism is very obvious... the only thing you have to watch out for, if the give you structural formulae... especially multi-choice papers... they're buggers they are when they, when they do this sometimes!... They... they may draw the same compound... but making the same structural formula, but drawn slightly differently!... And I tend to draw, most o, most of us tend to draw them as straight lines with branches coming off... they may actually... show the chain as a twisted chain... or zig-zag chain or going in to form a square or something!... So, you really do need to understand the megditure in order to be able to say, oh yes, those two compounds are the same!... Just been drawn differently.... You really have to watch that!... So, let's start with... position isomers and some examples... and try and select examples using these.... What I'm gonna to, what I, what I intend to do is just show the skeleton... in other words, most times I'll tend to do... right?... Just a quick and easy way of doing it.... Let's take this example here... I've got a carbon chain there and I'm going to put... a methile group there... and I'm going to put... a methile group there... two, three... that....... Identical chain again... let's have a methile group there... and one there... let's do one more of those... a methile group there... and a methile group there.... Now, in terms of naming these... always you go for the longest... straight shape that you can, by straight... straight really is in inverted commas... what we should really say... the longest continuous chain that you can find... in other words, you'd have to go back on yourself.... Now, if you look at all of these and find the longest chain we... you can actually get in that respect... is a six chain, isn't it?... There's nothing longer than a six. Do watch these examples I'm putting up, by the way cos I muck these up [speaker003:] [cough] [Danny:] sometimes!... I find this a bit tedious to keep doing this, so I tend to... you know, slip up sometimes [speaker003:] [cough] [Danny:] please check what I'm doing.... It's called thinking!... I've got this... I can't that one!... Erm... let's just take that chain... in each case because it's... it is a [speaker003:] [cough] [Danny:] chain... and we tend to read better, write horizontally... left, right, up a bit, down a bit... across, down a bit, up a bit... and so on.... Let's pick someone completely at random,, now we've had... Tracey... figuratively speaking! And Emma.... So we've... done our... what we should do, now we're giving the ladies full consideration first with the gentlemen. Haven't we Matthew? [speaker003:] Baa ah ah ah! [Danny:] John...!... Would you like to name that compound for me there please?... I mean that's not that's not a request.... As long as you understand that's an instruction!... What would you call it?... Obviously it's gotta be based on hexane isn't it? [speaker003:] Two comma five di-methile hexate. [Danny:] You want... two... comma... five [speaker003:] Dash. [Danny:] dash [speaker003:] Yeah... I was gonna say that! [Danny:] Yeah, you were just testing me to see if I [speaker003:] Ah well! [Danny:] get it!... Dire methile probate, is that what you want? [speaker003:] No I said hexate. [Danny:] Di-methile hectate? [speaker003:] X! [Danny:] Dire methile hexate.... Er, let's see... Daniel... silver glinting... from his eyelids! [speaker003:] dash dire methile [Danny:] We, I haven't asked you the question! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Let me ask you the question first!... Will you explain why that's correct?... If it is correct, do you agree with me? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] Alright. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Why is it correct? [speaker003:] The two's there cos... the mephile groups [Danny:] Mephile, what's mefile? [speaker003:] Mefalle! Methile. [LAUGHTER] Well one of them's on the second one, and one's on the fifth one... it's cos it's ta, it's. [Danny:] What you should be starting from is the longest chain. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] Longest chain is the sixth chain so it's gonna be based on a hexate. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] There are two methile groups... one in position two, one in position five. Does it matter which end you start Kieran? Hello! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Kieran? [speaker003:] No. [Danny:] Oh no I go... sorry that's the answer?... Is that, that is your answer? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Is that your ar, no, you're answer was no? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] It doesn't matter which end you start from cos either way it, it'll still be two, five.... Er, Chris you s... suddenly become extremely interested in what he's writing! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Do his ostrich impression! In other words, if I put my head down low enough... he can't see me! [speaker003:] No, I'm trying to write... my down. [Danny:] Yes Chris. [speaker003:] Was is he gonna [Danny:] We'll wait, yes we will wait, that's fine! [speaker003:] I'm writing. [Danny:] I'm, I'm going to wait. [speaker003:] I think we've waited long enough! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Well that's alright we'll come back to Chris. [speaker003:] No, it's okay I've done that now. [Danny:] Oh good! You're, you're ready to [speaker003:] Well I'll try and do that. [Danny:] oh that's... awfully good of Chris, thank you!... Erm, what would you call that one Chris? [speaker003:] Er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] You don't need any help Christopher. [speaker003:] Okay. [Danny:] This is not a difficult [speaker003:] Two [Danny:] one! [speaker003:] and then a three dash... die [Danny:] Three dash die? [speaker003:] Yeah, three... dash die methile [Danny:] ... sounds like a bush! [speaker003:] Er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Come on look, I'm listening! These are not, but I am! [speaker003:] Erm.... Oh ha! [Danny:] No, no! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] No, see I, see I, alright, alright, no! [speaker003:] Alright, okay, hold on, I know! [Danny:] What?... Erm... Jason! [speaker003:] Er... I'd say four three... four comma three... no, that'll be [Danny:] Fine, thank you Jason! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Jonathan! [speaker003:] Three, three die methile hexane.... In between [Danny:] Well let's [speaker003:] the threes [Danny:] let's get the grammar in as well.... Three comma three [speaker003:] Yeah, dash... die methile [Danny:] dash [speaker003:] hexane. [Danny:] die methile hexane.... Yeah, you're longest chain... is a six... so it could of been clearly based on hexane.... And the two methile groups... so it's gonna be a die methile.... It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a die methile hexane... of some description... now, to indicate the positions... it's either three... or four, we take the lowest number... both are on... carbon number three so it's three comma three dash... cos you have to indicate... because you've said die methile, you have to indicate where both of those groups are... not just one.... Alright?... That's good!... Which means I should have the last one doesn't it?... Emma, you were smiling... or grimacing one of the two! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... Erm... three comma... four comma dash die methile [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] What? [Danny:] Yeah [speaker003:] And comma! [Danny:] Yeah, you've got this right, yeah! [speaker003:] [whispering] [] [Danny:] Three [speaker003:] No! [Danny:] comma [speaker003:] they're laughing at me! [Danny:] four comma [speaker003:] I ain't done nothing! [Danny:] dash... Carry on Emma, you're alright! [speaker003:] die methile hexane. [Danny:] die methile hexane.... Anybody agree with that? [speaker003:] Missed one out. Missed the last one. [Danny:] Anybody agree with that? [speaker003:] No comma. [Danny:] The alternative could be... start from this end... is still three four... so it doesn't matter.... Now, these are examples of positional isomers just using ordinary groups... they only differ in the position of those functional groups, sorry, of those groups.... Now, in terms of functional group isomerism... I'm gonna take a slightly different example... right... let's take this one here first of all... I've now started to do what the examiners will do... now I'll make them identical structures there somewhere... and you really do need to be able to name them in order to see where they are... or if they are.... Matthew... no aliases today!... Would you like to name that one please Matthew?... And again, that wasn't a question!... Always start these off by considering what they would be if they were alkanes.... So if that was an alkane... that would be what? [speaker003:] Dunno. [Danny:] Four carbons? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] []. [Danny:] Yeah alright.... Read these propenes........... If that was an alkane... that would be a butane... four carbons........ This is an alcohol... it has an O H group... so it is a... butanole... but you have to indicate where... the O H group actually is... it's either on four... or it's on one. [speaker003:] Oh yeah it is. [Danny:] So you'd name this as... butane... in other words, you're saying it's a butane chain... you take off the E... you will add O L... and if there are positional isomers possible... you have to indicate the position... one O L... butane one L... one O L... butane one O L. [speaker003:] Butane one O L? [Danny:] Chris! What's that one? [speaker003:] Butane one O L. [Danny:] Exactly the same, right!... Er... Kieran... that one there? [speaker003:] Butane two O L. [Danny:] Butane two O L. Stick with the question Mark! [speaker003:] It's an O L. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] You say it as though you mean it!... Not [speaker003:] Butane two O L? [Danny:] Not, Butane two O L, no... you see, you yourself. Why is it Butane three O L Kieran? [speaker003:] Because you have to take the last number off it. [Danny:] Take the last number, right.... Erm... Tracey... that bottom one, can you [speaker003:] Ooh er! [Danny:] see it from there? [speaker003:] Sorry [Danny:] Sorry! [speaker003:] I'm not sure. [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry,a tha, that was ac, that was completely []! [speaker003:] Pick somebody else! Stop picking on me! Do you want your sticks? [Danny:] And that was completely unintentional! [speaker003:] Pick on [Danny:] But can you? [speaker003:] Pick on somebody else! [Danny:] Tracey, talk at me! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] She is []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] That [LAUGHTER] I am []! [Danny:] Where's the pu, let's put it up there.... No, I mean, quite seriously we're gonna have these things removed... cos lose er... a third of the... anyway.... Let's write it up here a bit. [speaker003:] I can see it really. [Danny:] Oh we, I wasn't sure if yo, if you could. [speaker003:] ... Oh!... Shall I just look past Matthew instead of trying to look through him! [LAUGHTER] Oh []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I just look past Matthew []! That wasn't called for was it? What's Matthew done to you lately? [Danny:] Right come on! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right... longest chain... longest chain you can find.... Now with this little compound you've got to choose the chain that carries the functional group. [speaker003:] Three,. [Danny:] Right, listening children? [speaker003:] No. [Danny:] You've got to choose the chain that carries the functional group... in this case.... So [speaker003:] And it [Danny:] you're looking at this chain here.... So, that's gonna be based on propane, three carbons. [speaker003:] Yeah I know. Pro, is that propane one O L?... It's the one [Danny:] It would be [speaker003:] next to the C. [Danny:] propane wo, it would be propane one [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] O L... but it's a substituted propane one O L... because... you're choosing this chain here... it means that you've got this group as... the substituant... and you've replaced one of the hydros with a methile group. [speaker003:] Oh! [Danny:] So... we start off by saying it's based on propane... there's an O H group so it's a propanol... the O H is on carbon number one of that chain so it is a propane one O L.... Yeah?... But, you've also got a methile group on carbon two... of that chain.... Right? So it's gonna be two methile... propane one O L... agreed? [speaker003:] Dash methile... is it three dash methile? Mm. [Danny:] Two dash methile.... Well... yeah, you're right, yes you're right, no I shouldn't say that!... Yeah.... Two dash methile... propane... dash... dash O L. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Dash dash dot dot. [Danny:] [LAUGHTER] do that get an SOS []! [speaker003:] How do you join the erm... the methile and the propane together? Is it a comma, is it a dash or what? Or is it all one word? [Danny:] One word. [speaker003:] Right. [Danny:] Right... now what would you call this?... And clearly these... two here... let's get rid of... let's get rid of that.... These two here are clearly position isomers.... They only differ in the position of that O H group. What would you call this? [speaker003:] Branched out. [Danny:] I mean where would you put it [speaker003:] Mm. [Danny:] in terms of it's classification? [speaker003:] . [Danny:] Would you call it positional?... Or... and can you call it positional? [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [Danny:] Not really, can you? Well [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] It is... if you had... the other compound where this O H group was on carbon number two as well then those two... would be positional isomers... cos their carbon skeleton would then be the same... and all they would differ is in the position of the O H functional group.... Yeah, so if you had... if I try and draw it much the same... if you had that... and let's choose... let's choose er, well le, let's keep the same... let's keep to the same carbon chain... if you had that... the carbon skeleton is exactly the same... the only way it differs is that the O H group here is on carbon one... of that chain that we've chosen... where as here, it's on carbon two of that chain. So, those two would be positional isomers. Yeah.... But... either one of these... and what we've already put up... you can't really call them positional isomers... cos the basic carbon skeleton is different.... Can you see the difference between those? [speaker003:] What's this? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] If I got these two... they are positional isomers... because the carbon chain is the same... and the only way they differ is in a position... of a functional group. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] These two here are also positional isomers, there carbon chains are the same... the only way they differ is in the position... of the functional group.... Yo, but you can't say that... either one of these... and either one of these... are positional isomers... cos their carbon skeletons are different.... Yeah?... It's a bit subtle.... Right, finally... something like a carbon carbon... just do a simple one... they balance for the carbon skeleton... these are true positional isomers, no other problem with them at all er erm!... Kempson... what would you call this one?... Don't cry!... I'm sorry to ask you a question Kempson. [speaker003:] Can't you be nice for once? [Danny:] I couldn't be nice if I, I've been an absolute swine today! I really have been evil! [speaker003:] Then you confuse him [Danny:] I can have one of these now... I've been the worst I've been for about six months... I really! Ain't I Trace?... If you think about this... it's based on the four carbon structure... so you've gotta have a few in the name... there is a carbon carbon double bond... so the basic structure we've got is the Butane... but as... there is more than one position you could have that... carbon carbon double bond... now, to indicate this position... and so this one would be called... futes... it would normally be a... butane... but to indicate it's position... bute one E... and again you're taking the lowest number... so instead of it being a bute three, it's a bute one E... you start at the appropriate.... So this one would be called bute... two E... and so again, these are true positional isomers... same carbon skeleton... they differ in the position of the principle... functional group, which in this case, has to be a special... electrons.... Yeah.... Right!... Branch chain isomerism... What do you think branch chain isomer ber la la isomerism is Tracey? [speaker003:] Why me? [Danny:] I'm not picking on, I just... this is to help you!... I like to help you. [speaker003:] Don't be dirty Matthew! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It's where you got the... er... the branch chains coming off of different positions. [Danny:] different branch even! [speaker003:] Oh! [Danny:] Yeah, try to use the word position. [speaker003:] Try not to or try to? [Danny:] Try to use the wo, try not to use the word position. [speaker003:] Oh alright. [Danny:] Cos that takes you backwards.... It's things like this... er, five... my father's getting excited! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right... they are typical alkane... branch chain isomers.... They're the same molecular formula... the only way they differ is in the way the basic chain is structured.... They're all pentate.... This one you would just call pentate.... This one, your longest chain is a four chain so it's based on butane... and you have a methile group... on carbon number two, taking the lowest number... of carbon number two of that butane chain.... So this would be a two... methile... because if that's... butane... the methile butane.... This one here, your longest chain... is a propane chain, a three chain... we've now got two methile groups as substituants... what would you call that Matthew? [speaker003:] Oh. [LAUGHTER] Methile. Oh God! [Danny:] Robin? What on your nose? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] No! [Danny:] Yo... you were looking at me Matthew... how can you be writing something down! [speaker003:] ... that's the erm.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] What do you think Matthew? [speaker003:] Say it again cos I wasn't listening. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] What do you think Matthew? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] []! [Danny:] Let's ask somebody else shall we? [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Danny:] Do you think that's a good idea, let's ask somebody ask somebody else let's ask Kieran. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Why doesn't he ever ask? Right, Oh God! Is it er Two two dash two methile [Danny:] Two da, two comma [speaker003:] comma... methile [Danny:] So, what do you say then? [speaker003:] Two comma, two... dash... methile die die methile [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Die methile [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right... you got it wrong! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Longest chain? [speaker003:] Methile [Danny:] die methile.... prop... pan [speaker003:] melthane You know you put an E under the first one, do you have to? [Danny:] No... you don't! You cannot put an E in front of this one!... That is not systematic momegliture... that has gone like that for ten years... universities still use it!... That is just called pentate... it is not called E M penta any more... equally you don't have sec... butile alcohol... turk... turt butile alcohol... they've been out for ten years! [speaker003:] It looks good! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Alright?... Right, now that is just pentate... these are all pentates that is specifically... pentate. [speaker003:] Phew! [Danny:] Right, so that's an example of branch chain isomers.... Now, functional group isomers... what does this suggest Emma?... Don't you swallow that goldfish! Finish that up! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Penny saw them first!... Then, when you've done that. [speaker003:] cruel! [Danny:] Unless it's the golden wish! [LAUGHTER]... Sorry!... Emma! [speaker003:] What was the question? What is fu fu functional group? Have a guess. [Danny:] Well wha wha wha what do you think we mean by functional group isomerism? [speaker003:] Erm... it means... they have the same functional group. [Danny:] Er they do not, they in fact, have different functional groups. [speaker003:] Okay, different functional groups. [Danny:] Same molecular formula [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] different functional groups.... Yes.... So, for example this one here, very close to Keith and Trevor... this one here, the best possible thing we can give to... Matthew.... What do you think [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Uncle John... what's that top compound... what type of compound is it?... Aunty Tracey... that bottom compound, what type of compound is that?... Tricky actually!... [speaker003:] Mm. [Danny:] It's neither one thing or the other. [speaker003:] Either one thing. Yeah, it's me, methile. [Danny:] It's methile... yes [speaker003:] methile [Danny:] absolutely right! It's a methile. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] So here we have... this what's, this what Stevie likes... it gives him his... his classic way of getting back at me! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] This is an alcohol... this is an ether... now... while we've got the opportunity we'll talk about the naming of ethers... before we get onto this... this last form of structural isomerism.... This... if that O H group was not there... the ethile...... it's an O H group so it's an alcohol, so you take off the E, add O L... and your positional number... is not required.... So, it would simply be... ethanol... for vodka, whisky, bacardi [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Ha []! [Danny:] meths... Matthew! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Generally... industrial meths... is ethanol [speaker003:] And it's got methanol in it as well. [Danny:] Industrial meths is ethanol! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] What you're thinking of the pink stuff... has the methanol in it! [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] That's why you go blind if you drink it and that's where the term blind drunk comes from.... What is called industrial meths is... ethanol. [speaker003:] And. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Because that's the old term that's been used for... however many years, and it's still used by industry.... Cos I did say earlier... that universities are behind in terms of this momegliture and so is industry.... So you still... you still buy it... it's actually butile alcohol.... But they're now ca, they're now catching up... they're now putting on the label... its proper name.... But Customs and Excise still call this industrial meths... unless it's pure etha, completely pure ethanol... in other words, no water in it... and then they can call it absolute alcohol... but they don't specify which alcohol it is look! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Got some... they've got some old terminology still around the organics, still in use around organics, it should be. [speaker003:] And omit wherever you go. [Danny:] Right, now... this thing here... what you have to e, do, have to do is to imagine... that it's an alkane... with... this oxygen containing group... butane.... Now, in this case, it doesn't matter which one I use because they're both exactly the same.... This... group here... the general group, if I put O R... and that R represents an alkyl... the general name is alkoxy.... If we specify what the R group is... in this case, it's a methile group... this would be called... methoxy... so there'll be methoxy group... is the substituant.... In this case... without it... this would be methane... so this would actually be called... methoxy... methane.... Some are chloro- methane is an... sort o, an analogy.... Methoxy methane.... That's where Stevie gets his oxy oxy ethane bit from.... Those of you who do biology, who does biology here?... Yeah, there's always one or two.... Those of you who do biology and have Stevie if you're ever ever bored... silly... right? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Like us [Danny:] When you're bored bored at other times, let's put it that way... if he starts doing any bio-chemistry at all start as, start asking him about the proper names of... the systematic names of things... and you watch him bristle! [speaker003:] He was talking about you yesterday. Yeah he was He said he thought had you behind him. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Really? [speaker003:] What... what did he say?, he says zappy! He said dappy slappy! [Danny:] No, I was trying to say was [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Oh no! [Danny:] I, I'll talk to you about that later Emma actually. What I was trying to say was, if you're really bored with him... and he's doing is, any form of bio-chemistry start asking him about the correct names, what are they? Say it, you say it like that, what's the correct name? Cos straight away,yo, you're implying that he's wrong! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] And he really bristles!... His hair always stands up on end! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] It's brilliant!... And he starts going oh oxy oxy methane, and he stamps his feet! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] It's ever so funny! It really is comical! [speaker003:] So you should do it? [Danny:] That's right.... You have to get him wound down a bit, you have to do it, you know... of a... about half an hour or so... ask him for the proper name!... It's absolutely brilliant! He goes mad! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] He's you see,bu but after... about twenty minutes or so he loses touch with what's... what you're actually doing... and if, if you catch him just right... he goes berserk!... It's really funny! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Stamps his little feet! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] stamping feet [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Anyway... he's actually a good friend... he knows I say these sort of things about him... but erm... it's good! [speaker003:] I'm gonna tell him! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, so this' ll be called [speaker003:] Yeah,. [Danny:] this will be called methoxy methane.... Okay?... Now, that's and example of... functional group isomerism... what I'd like you to do now is to try and decide what these two things are called I'm gonna put on the board... and try and decide what you would call them in terms these general labels... under structural isomerism.... If I just draw the carbon skeleton.... Oh no, I, I'll put the hydros in for you as well because I'm... I'm helpful like that!... It says so in my C V! Right, now they're both ethers... try and name them first... in naming them... take the biggest hydro-carbon chunk that you can find... and pretend that that was an alkane... so the smaller chunk then becomes the substituant.... So, for example, in that first one... the longest chain you've got is a three... so it's a derivative... it's an oxy derivative of propane.... Once you've got the names... then decide what you think... what type of isomerism you think it actually is.... It's really weird!... And I'll give you the old name for it.... Alright? [speaker003:] methoxy... pro propate. [Danny:] Yeah... exactly right!... The first one is methoxy propate... in other words... you're saying, effectively, this group here wasn't... the longest chain you can get is a propate.... So... you got a methoxy group... so this one [speaker003:] Page six. [Danny:] is methoxy... propate.... Now what about this one? [speaker003:] Mm. Ethoxy ethate, exactly right!... Exactly right, well done! [Danny:] These are some of the most difficult, well it is... compound that student's don't... are extremely difficult to name!... And the, they're effectively fairly easy, don't do much on them... you won't, oh yeah, you meet ethers very much at all.... There was a time, I can remember I was at school... Cor! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Yes I can think that far back! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] So can Adam []! [Danny:] Yes! No, I think I find it easiest, I remember when I was at school and you can't remember when you were last at college on time! [speaker003:] Ooh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Exactly!... Erm... I can actually remember making ether as a practical... I mean it's something you wouldn't dare even think about doing now!... Cos the stuff's actually lethal!... You know what I mean, it's a narcotic... it'll send some of you... more asleep than you already are!... Also it's [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] it's so inflammable... you go anywhere near a naked flame... sorry... flame [speaker003:] What? [Danny:] you don't even use... you don't even need to use a naked flame, you just need a hot surface... like Matthew's kneecap! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] And it ignites all on it's own!...... a terrible state!... Also... any of you go to university to do..., course you all will to some extent... cos you love chemistry so much!... It sits here.... We never ever distil ether without checking first that it doesn't contain incompoundable peroxides, organic peroxides which contain this and single bond... cos things explode! [speaker003:] Yeah.... [Danny:] But yo, but luckily we had to check our bottles... to make sure there's no peroxides in them.... That's lethal stuff! Anyway now, what would you call it... Jason? [speaker003:] I'd call it functional group isomers. [Danny:] Justification? [speaker003:] Because erm... the actual functional group on the end... it's only just... it's only just been moved [Danny:] What is the fu ah, but what is, it's the wrong word! What is the functional group? I'm not having a go at you, don't be so sluggish! What is the functional group in ether? The functional group is a singly bonded option to two carbon atoms. [speaker003:] Mm. [Danny:] Which you've got in both. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] The methoxy and the ethoxy are not functional groups.... It's that arrangement of saturated carbon... oxygen... saturated carbons... that's the functional group.... Irrespective of ho, how many more carbons are attached... to those two carbons.... It's tricky!... Erm... uncle Stuart, long time no. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] What do you think Stuart? What would you call it? [speaker003:] Well the only thing is [Danny:] Speak up! [speaker003:] The only real thing that seems to be changing... in... is the compound in position of the oxy [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Is this how you spoke in your interview then [LAUGHTER] Stuart []? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Yes, I'm awfully glad to be here! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] God I'm so excited at being able to come to study and [speaker003:] That's right. [Danny:] do my degree, I can hardly wait! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Oh my God! That's not fair! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] That's not fair! [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Why, do you speak and jog around [Danny:] It would help! It would help! Calm down! [speaker003:] Should have told him to his face. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Shut up! [Danny:] Yes... go on what you were saying. [speaker003:] Er... well you've totally made me miss my train of thought!... Er [Danny:] That wasn't what you saying! [speaker003:] Well you made me [Danny:] You were saying, you were talking about positioning, about. [speaker003:] You are moving the position of the oxygen... and although it isn't a er... a er... well no,... functional group? [Danny:] No.... The function group is the fact that it's simply bonded to two carbons. [speaker003:] And er [Danny:] Which doesn't really help. [speaker003:] Would it, would it influence... the er... compound by the. [Danny:] That's right Stuart. The influence is the physical property but not the chemical one.... Ethers are ethers are ethers. [speaker003:] Would a methile influence in the same way? [Danny:] No. Yeah, as I've already said. [speaker003:] Well then... the carbons you get is [Danny:] What he's really saying is that he doesn't know the answer to the question! [speaker003:] Well I've eliminated it's impossible [Danny:] I know you're eliminating... yeah... and al... and also eliminating half the brain cells in the room! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] This is still Is that it? [Danny:] Yes. [speaker003:] he did actually say that. [Danny:] Yeah, it is over now! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Back to normality!... No, I know what you're saying... er [speaker003:] So it's not a positional isomer. [Danny:] It's very difficult!... You can't really call it a positional isomer as such [speaker003:] What about the bonding arrangement? Is it an isomer because... sort of [Danny:] What? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Thank you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] He's doing A level maths right [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] there's three there! [speaker003:] Well there's four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hydrogens... right... [Danny:] Brian [speaker003:] No! [Danny:] Daniel [speaker003:] Do it on your own! [Danny:] Daniel, alright... Daniel can't add up to ten! Look I said [speaker003:] Right wha Any of them could add up to ten! [Danny:] Look, you see there... ah... he's got two different numbers of hydrogens up there! [speaker003:] Yeah, well put me down!... Cos I'm in the right! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Well, there you are, that's it! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Who can count up to ten? Me. Without a calculator! [Danny:] Without a calculator! [speaker003:] It told you! [Danny:] Right then [speaker003:] That's what told me, [Danny:] A level maths [speaker003:] you could. Oh I don't really! A level sums! [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, sums, the answer is The answer is... Matthew! [speaker003:] Do you wanna keep it? [Danny:] Is that, you can't really call it any of what we've seen up to now... not with any with full sort of... real... erm [speaker003:] B F D it's called.... ain't the first diploma... B F D. [Danny:] There is a word that's used, there's a term that's used for this sort of effect... this is the term it used to be called [speaker003:] .... [Danny:] Metamerism. [speaker003:] It's a worm.... A worm.... [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] What's a, what's funny? It's a label that's all!... There's no joke there Chris! [speaker003:] Yeah, these people will laugh at anything today! [Danny:] Well they're su, they're stupid boys that's why! [speaker003:] Say that again Can you slap then! all of them! [Danny:] Can I slap all of them? [speaker003:] Mm. [Danny:] You only have to slap this end... and it passes along anyway! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah, do it! [Danny:] It won't do any damage cos Chris is in the middle!... You're like a buffer! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Buffer. hair. Well.... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Anyway, by the looks of it... there won't a, there ain't much longer... at least I kept mine for forty six years! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Mine's [Danny:] Jus jus just brush it back, let's have a look see if there [LAUGHTER] is anything in there []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Can't you brush it back together come on!... Good grief! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Cor!... It's like looking at the mirror innit? [speaker003:] A receding hair line is a sign of intelligence. [Danny:] Thanks Al! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Obviously...... obviously it's a genetic throwback with Chris, it's not worked with him! [speaker003:] Oh! Ha ha!... Throw up, yeah! [Danny:] Right [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] an used to be called... metermarism... and I say, it's not a word... it's not a term I've seen on for many many years... and you don't seen it many... erm... modern... organic texts. I think it's still around... and they've gotta call it something... if erm... if you think [speaker003:] word. [Danny:] Right now!... Stereo-isomerism next... exhausted... icuma [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] You ought to []! Not a lot! [Danny:] We've exhausted the structural side of isomerism, now we can look at the stereo isomerism.... Now the stereo isomerism... is all about spatial chemistry, much more than... just the way things are attached.... Yes?... It's not just the way the things are attached together, joined together... it's more about the actual space... how they're arranged in space but.... There are two... forms of stereo isomerisms that we recognise... and don't forget, these labels are purely arbitrary.... The first one... is called geometrical isomerism... in some books... not that you ever read, will read any chemistry books... but just in case you stumble over one day... and fall flat on your face... and there happens to be a chemistry text book open... and you ha, just happen to read one or two of the words as you... go unconscious... and in Matthew's case if you wake up! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Geometrical isomerism is sometimes, or has sometimes been called... cis trans-isomerism.... It's not the right term to use... not really.... cis trans... c i s... and t r a n s..... They're laughing again are they?... If go like this to Daniel... you can slap them [speaker003:] Don't be like that! actually! You're not allowed to slap! [Danny:] You're not allowed to slap them? Why's that? [speaker003:] My mum told me it was nude! [Danny:] You're mum told you [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yeah that's... that's naughty! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Bet he's gonna take! [Danny:] Your mum told you what? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Yo, your mum told you to do it in the nude? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I meant rude! [Danny:] I was gonna say, when can I come round and see your mum? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Why is it rude to slap people Emma?... They deserve it! They're boys! [speaker003:] slap you. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Maybe I should see behind! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right... geometrical isomerisms results when... you have... rotation... about a bond axis... prevented.... If you draw a normal carbon carbon single bond... which is a sigma bond... what's a sigma bond Daniel? [speaker003:] It's where two [Danny:] E T impression! [speaker003:] Yeah... like that. [Danny:] Yeah... end on overlap, lookalike Daniel but... I I'll take... I could be quite insulting but there you are!... End on overlap of the.... Now there's free rotation about that carbon carbon axis.... Now, the other type of overlap is lateral overlap... where the is always o, overlapping that way... and you try and rotate about that bond axis... you'll break the overlap.... And any double bond... will consist of... a sigma bond... and pie bond... and because you've got the pie bond there... it then restricts... rotation about that carbon carbon bond axis... and providing... you have... different groups here... different groups of, at each end... or just one in there at both ends... you can get two different isomers.... When the groups are attached on the same side... of the double bond, that shows... we use prefix cis dash... in front of the name.... So you've named it systematically... and then looked to see where the, the various groups were... and put cis in front... if you had that arrangement.... If they're opposite to each other the same type of idea, you've named it just one in... If you draw is [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] it used to be a rom of... calcite... or or a prism of calcite... which will do the job.... Nowadays, they have, obviously sca synthetic polymers... which would be er much more easier... the same sort of thing as they have in sunglasses.... So the light that actually comes out... will be vibrating... in specific planes, but not all planes... every plane in.... It will then go through a container... now that container, ultimately, will contain... this is why it's called a container!... Will ultimately go through the solution that you're looking at, in terms of optical activity... it comes out t'other end, cos light tends to do that, you know... it'll come t'other end... and at this end, after going through a length system etcetera, will be a an eyeball. [speaker003:] Just one? [Danny:] Just one.... Very difficult to look through to... through a lens with two eyeballs at the same time! Unless they are pre-mensile eyes you know, they sort of they come out, sort of go down together and be just above the... actual eyelid. Thank you for that... philosophical thought. [speaker003:] It's alright. [Danny:] Now, the way you use it, it varies... one way to use it... is to start with this empty... and you'll find that this... end here, the actual eyepiece... can be rotated, it has a scale... like as in fish, Stuart. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Sorry!... You know the lines. [speaker003:] Or as in weighing... you could have picked weighing scales as an example couldn't you? [Danny:] Weighing scales. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Weighing scales! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Don't you the balance Stuart? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Weighing scales... ah well that's sad! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] That's really sad! [speaker003:] Can I just talk to you about them ones? [Danny:] I'd... don't do that again!... After I've heard their conversation for God's sake... you know, have a bit of heart!... Yes, that's what it means, it means weighing scales.... What he meant was a balance. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Erm... right if this... [LAUGHTER] you're enjoying this Mark aren't you?... Dunno why, they'll start me off now!... There are various ways of using them... one way, to look through... [LAUGHTER] which yo, which you have to to see the light, you know, otherwise you won't see it []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Yes, Daniel it's true! Don't gasp in surprise! You do actually have to look through to see the light coming out! You look through and you rotate that eyepiece until you've either got... maximum brightness... cos you got a second polaroid system in there as well you see... you either get maximum brightness or complete... darkness.... What you then do... make a note of that... all that, as I read it to you... what you then do is to put your solution into that container... you have to otherwise it comes out the ends!... Put your solution into that container, that solution... is of a known concentration... this path then... is also known... Matthew!... This path then is also known... and in terms of accurate work, they also know the temperature... now I'm not sure if there's a temperature effect... on rotation, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was.... Anyway... you then look through it with the solution in and you'll find that if, for example, you started off with it... completely dark... you'll find it's then grey... cos the plane of light's been rotated, now it's... where there was no light getting through... now some of it is actually getting through, cos it's been rotated.... And so you then rotate the eyepiece, Christopher! You then rotate the eyepiece [speaker003:] I was trying! [Danny:] Yes but Danny's talking! It's Danny's turn! Well shut up then! Oh God!... You then rotate, oh look at this!... I really hate you Danny! Listen to this! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] He's totally []! [Danny:] You then rotate the eyepiece so you get back to the condition that you had before.... So if you started off in complete darkness... you rotate until you get complete darkness... or the opposite.... And you measure the angle through which you've had to turn... to get to that position, and which direction you've had to turn it through... or rather, which direction... the light had been rotated... through.... Yeah?... And that gives you, something called, specific rotation... which will be a constant... for those conditions indicated and for that substance.... Now, one of them will rotate to the right, one will rotate to the left... what you need to be able to do is to identify the condition that will give... that give rise to optical isomers, in other words, to be able to say... yes, that molecule will have optical isomers.... Optical isomers are sometimes called... inentiamorse... if you have trouble with language... then we'll call them... inantipas... if you're a biologist you call them optical isomers. [speaker003:] Actually we was just saying that. [Danny:] That was just malicious! [speaker003:] Slander! [Danny:] Yep! [speaker003:] What does it mean? [Danny:] What... slander? [speaker003:] No, inantiamorse or whatever it's called? [Danny:] That's the name for optical isomers.... It's the posh name for... it's the one that chemist use! You know, optical isomers, alright? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] methane is punity [Danny:] Right now you must be able to recognise in, either a structural formula or a condensed formula... you must be able to recognise existence of what is called... and asymmetric centre... if you are a chemist... kiral centre... if you are a super chemist... if you are a biologist... an atom bonded to different ones.... [LAUGHTER]... That's assuming there's biologist and chemist!...... [LAUGHTER]! [speaker003:] Ha ha ha ha ha ha! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I'm a bush. Aye? That is a bush. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Does look strange []! [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] so... what you're looking for in any formula... shush daddy's talking Matthew!... What you're looking in any formula... say from... a carbon compound... you would be looking for that was bonded to four different groups, it doesn't matter what the groups are, it doesn't matter how big, how small they are [speaker003:] And that one as well? [Danny:] but they're bonded... to different groupings... so, for example, if one had something like this... er, let's call that see three, page seven... if I had something like that... that central carbon there... and when they draw these things at an exam paper, don't expect it to be the central one.... I could've actually drawn this quite differently... and maybe one of the carbons of on the side... yeah?... That carbon that I've got in the centre now... and the convention is to use a little star. [speaker003:] Ah! [Danny:] That's definitely bent! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Put two in here... er, I get that sort of Christmassy spirit... building up [speaker003:] Brandy... vodka Brandy? On the Christmas pudding! I thought it was a fairy! [Danny:] Pardon? [speaker003:] Get the. [LAUGHTER] I never []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] He said brandy []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] little heart, bless her!... What's the, oh! No I won't ask! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Don't... so we use a little star... on the atom, and it may not always be carbon, cos we don't get... this sort of isomerism, indeed, like compounds as well.... Use a little star to indicate which is the asymmetric centre... which kiral centre... and all it means is that... if you were to dra, if you had a... a kiral... molecule... in other words, it had four different groups attached to it... what it means is that... it... and it's mirror image, this is the way you actually draw it and answer the questions... you draw... you draw it as if there was a mirror image.... That's why it's damn tricky to do it!... You draw it... to show that... it has a mirror image... so what you find in practice is that it... and it's mirror image are not superimposable.... In other words... like your hands... and feet... etcetera... they're mirror images... you can't... thank you...... they're mirror images that you can't superimpose.... You can't even superimpose to that extent... cos they're slightly different... can't even superimpose that my fingers... can't superimpose cos they're slightly different.... You actually make up a structure like this... tetraneedle carbon... we did have another one... but er, obviously there's some students... have erm... decided to do... something different with the er... things... that's all that's left! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Not funny Kieran!... Here I'm holding... hand, model, model hand!... Here I am holding... a model of a tetraneedle carbon... in four different groups of ten... and here is it's mirror image. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] It's been a! [Danny:] It was!... Honest!... That was it's mirror image! [speaker003:] So that's been changed out of that. [Danny:] Pardon? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, and there's... not really enough! I mean... gotta pretend there's another one of these there!... But there would of been!... There's it's mirror image... and what you will find is that you can superimpose... side by side... and two, any two of those atoms there... those groups... but then, straight away the other two are out of position... the other two have reversed.... So if I take this one and put this one... I can superimpose the red... straight away I've superimposed a group, but look... the blue and re, and the white... are out. [speaker003:] Ah! [Danny:] Watch, see it goes.... Can you see that? [speaker003:] No. [Danny:] It's sad innit?... Or I can superimpose the green one [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Notice now that the white one... the two white ones are superimposed but now look... the two reds and the two blues are now... not superimposed any longer.... That's what we mean by non-superimposed. Tracey's trying to work out how a, bless her!... I know I've only got one left, yeah. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] But it would have been a. [speaker003:] Yeah, shut up! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Oh, I'm tired! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] So... optical isomerism results... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Optical isomerism results... when a structure and it's mirror image are non-superimposable.... Right? This takes us to four fifteen.... I know that cos it says so on here. [speaker003:] It might be wrong! [Danny:] What I wanted to do today was to start to talk about... mechanisms... but I think I've exhausted my erm... what's the word I'm looking for? Pardon? [speaker003:] Ooh! [Danny:] What was that? Pardon? [speaker003:] Gangrene. [Danny:] I didn't hear you then!... What we'll do is we'll leave it at that, that doesn't mean your going anywhere!... Now, are there any aspects about the isomerism you want clarifying apart from the whole lot? [speaker003:] Do that one again. That last one you just did... I didn't understand a word No. of that! [Danny:] Well the thing to do... maybe I should have a word with him. [speaker003:] Well I understand where you got that [Danny:] Now be subtle about it! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Your explanation was a load of crap mate! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] No, Danny, I want to know about it right? But I don't understand what you just said then. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Ooh, now you've made him mad! Ooh ooh ooh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I needed some! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Tones really with his shirt! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Can he turn greener than his shirt! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Can you specifically make a different erm... er... optical isomers. [Danny:] You can... to some extent [speaker003:] What about [Danny:] When you When the chemical reactions very often the two that are produced... erm... well usually, when you ca, come into reactions and materials that are produced... are a mixture of both isomers.... In other words, usually the chemistry is non selective.... Yeah?... If both isomers are being formed.... Tha, that by the way, is called a racenate... or the [speaker003:] Is this [Danny:] racemic mixture. [speaker003:] A what a... r racenate? [Danny:] A racenate, r a c e n a t e or racemic mixture. [speaker003:] What about this though? [Danny:] Hang on!... That's, that's geometrical. [speaker003:] Said, yeah, but you can have.... [Danny:] To some extent you can, yeah. [speaker003:] It's a mixture of the [Danny:] But with optical you try to produce a particular isomer, what you normally [speaker003:] Have you? [Danny:] get is the racemic mixture... in other words, both are there... but it has no... ah! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Both are there... but it has no effect on plane polarised light, for instance, like, as if one of them is trying to rotate it to the left... by so many degrees... and the other one is rotating to the right by the said the amount.... So that they, they can only... twenty. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] What we can do now... we can use systems to, once we've got the racemic mixture... we can use systems to... separate that racemic mixture.... We can also use biological systems... to separate them... because biological systems, like protein synthesis and things like that... are very selective... in terms of the one they... the, the isomer they will pick up.... If they do happen to pick up the wrong isomer... erm, these isomers by the way, you'll find things put in front of them like... you often find a little d... or a little l... in front of the name... it means dextarosatory... rotated to the right... and leverosatory [speaker003:] Lever? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Alright, I'll get out the way then []! [Danny:] leverosatory... rotating to the left... you find these... this prefix appearing in front of a name if it's... the compound is optically active.... If it's a racemic mixture... you sometimes find... saying that both are there.... Biological systems tend... to normally pick up a particular isomer... in most cases, if they pick up the wrong one... it will affect, for example the protein chain... it will affect, ultimately, its three dimensional structure... and therefore, it's function.... Now, it may or not me noticeable... if it's a minor alteration in the surface geometry... then... it may be so slight as to make no difference in the way it performs... so if, for example, it's an enzyme... it may not affect it at all.... But in some cases the... having a different isomer can affect the three dimensional properties in such a way... that it will no longer function efficiently... as an enzyme... as a catalyst... to the reaction it's supposed to catalyse... then you start to get problems.... So some genetic problems are a result... or a, shown to be the result of a wrong... amino acid being incorporated into the protein chain... and therefore repricated... and on and on and on.... But we can now use biological systems to actually separate them... and actually select... particular... isomers.... But normally... chemically speaking, when a particular reaction takes ta, careful of those Emma!... [shouting] Emma!... Take the pen out of your nose [] dear, thank you! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] She's now sucking the end of the pen! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] At least it wasn't stuck up the bum! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Erm... chemically speaking, if you carry out a reaction... which can produce an optically active compound, you would normally the recenate... and then you have to separate by either chemical method or the physical method... and it's usually not very easy.... If you're gonna separate chemically, say for example, you produced erm... an organic acid which is optically active... the things you would normally have to do... is to use a base... to make the salt... of, you know, you make the two optically salt... and then separate them by a thing such as fractional crystallisation... and then we generate the acid afterwards... very very tricky!... Not as tricky as the original one... this effect was discovered, I think, by Pasteur... in tartaric acid... and he happened to notice, he had a proper tartaric acid crystals.... That's the sort of question to ask Stevie, by the way... he says tartaric acid, ask him for it's proper chemical name. [speaker003:] What is it? [Danny:] I dunno. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] It loops... it goes down a bit.... Anyway... he happened to notice, God knows how, like, cos this cry, the crystals you used were quite small!... He happened to notice that there were crystals which appeared to be mirror images of each other.... And so, it goes beyond the actual molecular stage... if you can have this compound in crystallised form, as you can most... though you might have to reduce the temperature or whatever, but then... all is gone... gone crystalline eventually... you'll find their crystals are also mirror images... and what he actually did, he painstakingly picked out crystals... which were of one particular shape as opposed to the other, he actually separated all the crystals physically... by using tweezers... and then found that they ha, you know, the two had a different affect on plane polarised light.... Incredible!... Now, in answer to your question Christopher [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] I've now made... single handedly... cos I'm like that... single handed! [speaker003:] You didn't have one ready or anything? [Danny:] I did, but some students... took it bits!... [shouting] I now have []... a molecule of this... there it was... there again, now it's back in again...... and out... now they're gone... now they're back! [speaker003:] It's magic! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] [shouting] What I have here []... is... are... mirror images... alright?... Complete mirror images, yes? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] Now, you find that those mirror images are not superimposable... so I can... in order to superimpose the red and the white... if only I can... on doing that, straight away the blue and the green... are non-superimposable.... So those two things would be optical isomers... one would rotate the plane of polarised light... to the left... the other would rotate the plane of polarised light... to the right. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Cor,! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Trying to up it. [Danny:] Yeah? [speaker003:] Yeah... I think I got that. [Danny:] Any other questions?... Price of fish, meaning of life?... When you've finished the class? [speaker003:] What is erm... erm, the meaning of life? Can we do it? [Danny:] Thirty eight and half.... Thirty eight point five. [speaker003:] The meaning of life? [Danny:] Yeah! [speaker003:] No, it's forty two. Forty two. [Danny:] Thirty eight point five. I have it on... good assurance... [speaker003:] It's thirty two. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] He thinks your mad! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] actually! [Danny:] Any other... er, dunno where you're going, it's not time yet! Let's spin this out to the last possible second. [speaker003:] It means, like thirty eight point five. I know! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, any other questions about what we've done today? [speaker003:] Oh! Nuclear cis trans... can you have, say, with two b's and one carbon? [Danny:] Can what? [speaker003:] Can you have the two b... b's and one carbon? [Danny:] No, because then you won't get... isomers.... That won't be ota, they won't be erm... geometrical isomers.... Now if you, and if you rotate one [speaker003:] oh yeah it's in [Danny:] you get the other one. [speaker003:] positional innit? Yeah. You keep changing the carbon. [Danny:] Anything else? [speaker003:] I must just say to yo, you're dying to ask, like what he's doing over the corner? Not a lot! [Danny:] I, I feel sorry for you, you mis, obviously a second time being in contact with Daniel! [speaker003:] Yeah, he is quite a shock! Kenton knows [Danny:] Kenton's a real [speaker003:] He still does nothing! [Danny:] That's right!... He was talking about you before you came out actually. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] He was! [speaker003:] You should have been here early Kenton I missed your presence! [LAUGHTER] Excuse me []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] Right, anybody else at all? [speaker003:] What's that noise? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] That's on B B C one. What's that noise? It sounds like a cat when it plays up! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] I worry about you sometimes Emma! I... I really do worry about you!... Who saw the Mary Whitehouse Experience? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Danny:] Who saw Kermit... vomiting in his pint glass! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I didn't []! [Danny:] Really... the only thing I was disappointed about is that he didn't drink it again! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] If that had been a true man he'd have drunk it again afterwards! [speaker003:] But he's not a man! [Danny:] Waste not want not! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Danny:] That's very true! But he thinks he's a man doesn't he? [speaker003:] Kermit's a transsexual. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Emma knows that!...! I think we leave now. [Danny:] I think that's probably a very good place to leave!... Thank you for allowing me to.....

[speaker001:] Here, sign the minutes... of the... the last meeting... and the special meeting for... the, the special meeting thing but it doesn't matter. And er... are there any apologies? Yes, Celia and John.... John... who? ... and I Ah yes! Yes!... And er... they got , right. And him?... Erm... one of those er... that I've got two er, points to make, one is to, to, there's a recording... somewhere... going on... er... er... it's erm... not anything really to do with er... us, but we have agreed or someone's agreed on... our behalf but er... the person can do... the recordings but it's er... of an educational nature to er help students with their language, but er we shall be... completely anonymous so... if Is that... rough language? [LAUGHTER] so we'll er... just erm... behave yourselves this evening! [LAUGHTER] And er and speak coherently... and erm... and and then forget that er, anyone's here. That's the first one, the second er... point is, that we have on our agenda on eleven D... er, the Three Hills re... er, redevelopment... and er... we have er... the er association here to... erm... to make a presentation. I wondered if you'd... agree with me that we, if we do that first and so... then we can get on... with our business afterwards. Would that, I hope that will... that er, you will agree to that, because we don't want... people hanging around waiting for us to go through... all our items so... I hope you'll agree with that. Yeah. Yes. You know I suggest Make it, just a minute er er Bill. Simon. Thank you. Could you ask... who, that is making the recording?... Are we allowed to know who who's making the recordings? It's Longmans. They're doing it for a dictionary for... erm... sch... for... students. So are getting his copyright are they? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, but is, is it, if it's for commercial... er, enterprise? Is it a... well I suppose they're not going to... make a loss out of it!... But I don't [LAUGHTER] they'll make a erm... they won't make a su, a surplus, I don't like the word profit so I'll say... surplus... out of this er... little gathering here tonight. I don't think that it's all, all that er... important. When you're in public life you have to put up with er... cameras and er... things going erm... around so... and we're going to be er, completely anonymous in er... that, so I think Simon's suggesting that we might benefit in terms of. [LAUGHTER] Well erm... er, well yes of course, I didn't think of that. I never think of er... you know, commercial things, I'm just thinking of we, well providing a service, but then Oh yeah. we don't all work on the clone do we?... However, coming back to er Bill wanted to say something. Same question, I just wondered who it was that was all. Oh! Right!... Erm... we can er... now... er... get on with the er... Three Hills er... er redevelopment. Does any of the officers want to say anything Yes I would. Er Paul? Do you want Yes, thanks Joan. Er, the reports on... Three Hills redevelopment... er, next phase... starts on page a hundred. Erm... and includes an appendix... one, the proposals from Moat Housing Society with erm... Nick... from Moat... and some of his colleagues are going to... er, run through a bit later. Erm, also we will see,u up here... er, displays erm... of the proposals. Erm, these are the same... displays which were shown... to... er...... the tenants meeting public at Three Hills. Or in anyway, can't be made at the meeting. Erm... we both feel you've had a chance in detail... and they'd been quite blank in design. Er, just to take you quickly through... er... the first part of the report and then hand over to... Moat. Erm... as... part of the agreement... on the demolition of the four remaining blocks of Three Hills... erm... Moat... er... became our partners... for the rest of our development... of Three Hills. As you were aware, they had been involved in Three Hills... in er... developing Ayletts Field... and successfully with us... on our... our most recent one. This... scheme has almost been seen as our... joint number one priority... in terms of social housing projects... along with, obviously, getting social housing on to er, Church Langley. We are... we are very close now to completing the final... lease agreement with Moat... erm... as we're not quite there yet I'm... I'm gonna be suggesting... if it's possible to... er, amend er one of the recommendations... er, recommendation B, er, to take note of the facts that we quite... er, finalised the agreement yet... erm... I wanted to try and get in line with the... er, programme for the recommendation... which came out of Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee. And I think it should read erm... as it does, but without the final full stop... it will then go on... er, when in a form... satisfactory to Council's Legal Officers.... There is a separate paper which has been circulated as well is the comments on... on financial liability of the scheme... which you should have as well. Erm, as I've said there is a display there... and... Moat are here to ask... ask... ask as many questions obviously as you'd like and hopefully they'll be able to clear up any... er, issues on the. Erm... this has been to Great Parndon Committee... so it's been through the neighbourhoods er, community cycle... and there has been an exhibition following that committee... on Three Hills, which was very well attended by... by tenants and residents... and main feelings coming out of that was that erm... the residents were keen for this to happen, certainly wanted something to happen... erm... er, on the estate particularly demolition of the four... empty blocks. At the Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee... members requested that our building control service being used... er, the developers throughout the scheme, and that has been taken on board and Moat are perfectly happy for that to happen. There is one further complication... which has arisen, and that is, that we... er, need to apply... have applied for a high waste... er, the roads on the estate... are, in fact, adopted... erm... so we do need to get that through. Erm... fi, finally what I say on, is, that we do... need... er, some firm indication this evening... erm... in order to enable Moat... Housing Society to... draw down the housing association grant... for the housing corporation... erm... and to enable us, obviously to... sign... a... er, the legal agreement with them. Perhaps it's best if I... hand over now to Nick to... run through the proposals... there are some amendments... to the one that you had as appendix one... erm... I don't think any of them are too substantial. Perhaps if I just... quickly point out the main ones... erm... they have been amended in... er, a later version of the document. Er, I think the main ones... really, are on page one o six... the... final two lines of the... first paragraph... which says [reading] the two vacant blocks []... now really, there's four... it should just read, [reading] and does now read the demolition of the vacant blocks []. On page... one o eight... paragraph two point two... er, [reading] the society proposals of the... er, in accordance with the... objectives [] we've taken out overall, it wants to be... clear that it must mean it's... in total, the objectives. Page one o nine... the second paragraph then... we've taken out... erm... first... from first priority, so it should read... [reading] in agreement with Harlow to place a notice through the scheme... as it's priority with the housing fund in the future years as required []. And, the next paragraph down... we've taken out... best... now, so it'll read erm... the legal technicality we will substitute reasonable, which er... erm... has a al... altogether different meaning to... term. Which paragraph is that, Paul? On this one? That's paragraph three, on page one o nine Oh yes. first line. Mm. Finally... on page one one four... the anticipated start and completion dates are different. It should be spring nineteen ninety five... to spring nineteen ninety six.... Okay, with that, I'll le... I'll hand over to Nick to take you through the... their present proposals.. If you don't mind I'll stand up cos I'm gonna have to shoot over there to... the plans in some stage in the, in the presentation. I'm Nick and I'm the development director for Moat, responsible for all of our new development activities... and I have with me tonight Sally our assistant development manager... for Essex, who'll be responsible for this project... and also two of our consultants dealing with the scheme, Alan from Anglian Design... who are acting as architects on the scheme... and Howard from Space, who have been acting as our employer's agent... and consultant and will administer the building contract for, for all the phases of this, this project. If I give you some background to, to Moat and to the project itself,an and how we're gonna approach the scheme... I'll then hand over to Alan who will talk about the design issues... and the master plan... and we'll price the Three Hills and how they'll... they can meet... that subjective. Moat put considerable store in this scheme at Three Hills as the... the next stage of our partnership... er... with the Council... and erm... we are committed to doing the scheme in accordance with your overall master plan that you've adopted for the Three Hills area... er... our proposals will com... complete the re-development of the vacant sites at Three Hills... providing a further a hundred and nine... properties for... for social housing... both for rent... and for low cost home ownership. The scheme will meet the local needs of the area... those needs being identified by... the district council. If I say a little bit about Moat... er, we are a registered housing association... who are obviously monitored by the housing corporation... responsible to a committee of management. Er, we've been going for twenty six years... er, and we now manage around about three thousand properties... and are building er... and... selling around about seven hundred properties a year for, for rent and low cost home ownership. Er, we've been working in Harlow for a couple of years now... and as you may know, we... as Paul said, finished the first phase of Three Hills which is the Ayletts Field scheme... which provided sixty six properties for a low cost home ownership... and two special needs properties... and we'll also be starting in the next couple of months... er, on providing low cost home ownership in Church Langley... erm... it's funded by yo, yourselves. We currently have a small office in Harlow, staffed by full-time member... er, and we'll be opening in late November... er, an of, a fully staffing housing management office... er, with with three members of staff, it'll be located in the town centre. We're committed to Harlow... er, as an area... we put considerable resources of our own into the first phase of... er, the Three Hills... and you'll hear tonight... we'll be putting in a conditional... er, two hundred thousand odd into... into this... phase from our own reserves. As I said, our proposals fulfil commitment to... er, the Three Hills area and the overall master plan. The hundred and nine properties that we will provide will be split between seventy one... er, rented units... some of which again, will be for special needs... and thirty eight low cost home ownership units. These will be shared ownership properties... whereby the purchaser will buy a percentage... usually forty to fifty percent... but then pay a rent on the remainder... and they will... er, be able to staircase to buy further parties into an outright ownership. So again, it's a low cost option for people to to... to get their own housing. We've currently been allocated... just over one point three million... from the housing corporation... which represents about forty one percent of the money that we need to do the scheme. We need... two million pounds more from the corporation... er, and obviously we will be making that our first priority for investing into Essex... er, and to obviously... erm... as Paul said... er... you're prepared to make that a priority as well and through the housing corporation. Our consultants for the project will be for, for all three phases... er, Leonard Space Partnership an and Anglian Design... who were involved in the initial master planning of... of the... er... Three Hills area... so we feel that gives continuity... er... to to the overall planning of the scheme. We're also committed to... tenant participation... and er... we've done a couple of exercises already on the scheme... and we've secured some funding from the housing corporation... to employ Anglian Design on our behalf... with the... the... housing association... er, to involve the tenants as fully as possible... in the... er, development process. The properties that we're building will be available... er, the initial lettings... a and sales will be one hundred percent... er, to council nominees... subsequent lettings and nominations will be at seventy one percent... which is the maximum level that we can agree under the housing corporation rules. Er, however... we have agreed, and we're perfectly happy... er, to have an undertaking... which, obviously you can't enter into within the... a, a legal document... cos we wouldn't qualify for a corporation grant... to make the remaining twenty five percent... available to the council as well. You're the statutory housing authority... you identify the people in the greatest housing need... our aim is to house people in the greatest need... so, you identify the... the tenants. In return for that... you're providing a to, to the society. We will be entering into a legal agreement with the... er, the council to... basically erm, set the criteria for the scheme... this will establish the mix and the tenure... er... of the, of the... er... the scheme... and to ensure that it... it adheres to the, to the master plan. And we've written into our arrangements with any contractor, in the tender documentation... that they have to adhere to the... er... requirements of the master plan. The development agreement requires that we complete the scheme... by the thirty first of March nineteen ninety seven... er... obviously subjective to your support and funding i in the corporation. Er, if not, then we return... er... the... the elements of the site we've now developed to yourselves... er,... and we get reimbursement for the cost that we've... incurred in the demolition of the blocks. The legal agreement requires us to demolish er... the the the blocks that are on the site... er... and this will cost approximately, including interest... etcetera... over two hundred thousand pounds to the society... er... so obviously it's a... a reasonably substantial commitment from ourselves... tying up our own... our resources in... in Three Hills. In return for us putting that money into the scheme... er... straight away er... as Paul said... the council will be agreeing to, to make us priority for handling corporation funding... and if that's not successful... er... to use your... reasonable endeavours... to try and find... the remainder of the scheme yourselves. As I said, we've already got forty one percent of the the the main funding required... er, for the project... and er... we're... relatively... erm... confident that with our own money going in... and yourself putting the... er... the loan... in for the nothing... er... that a... our bids are gonna be successful in future years. If I just nip round to the drawings... I'll just give you an indication of of what exactly we're, we're doing. This development here is the first phase... called Ayletts Field which we've already completed, the sixty eight units for... er, rent and shared ownership. We've got funding already from the housing corporation to do twenty four category one sheltered flats... on this part of the site... and we'll looking to start that in... late... er... Novem... November nineteen ninety two, this year. We've got all the approvals we now need from the corporation... er... and the tenders... are out... and erm... we're awaiting their return. The next phase will be... er... this phase, site three... er, which we will be providing... twenty one... er, flats to rent as your nominees... er... three units for the special needs... and for those... like I told you, it's about twenty four rented to nominees... we've had the funding for that pre-allocated by the housing corporation so they are... er, committed to, to funding that. And we anticipate starting that scheme... er... in spring nineteen ninety four... latest... and the completion... is nineteen ninety five. The balance of this site... we'll be doing, as I say, twenty five shared ownership properties... and that's subject to a bid... er, in... for the next financial year... er... which again is obviously subject to, to your support, but as I said, it will be our first priority. We then move over to the... er... jus, what is called site two... and, on that we'll be doing another twenty one houses for rent to your... your nominees... with a further two units for... special needs... and the balance of the site... can be made... er... available for shared ownership, which is another thirteen properties... and the timetable for that is set to follow on... after this site's been completed... so that's why the phase has been... er, changed to nineteen ninety five... in your reports. So... I think Alan can talk in a bit more detail about the design of the master plan issues and then... be perfectly happy to take any questions you may have. Thank you. I think it might help if I... stand near the drawings. I thought that I was gonna have to er, talk about phasing but I think that he's dealt with that quite adequately but... I certainly will be happy answer any questions afterwards if... if there are any. Erm... before we started this drawing... which... so if I co, perhaps if I stand here everyone will be able to see... which is... probably fairly familiar and... in, in most respects it goes back about six years to the first master plan that was... produced for the estate... erm... to provide a combination of regeneration... and new build. and in essence... it's been our, our prior aim to... keep to that which was agreed by the council... back in nineteen eighty six. Er, in a number of ways... I think everybody will agree that it's been improved... by er... the er... demolition of... the terrace blocks, rather than refurbishment... and the opportunity has been taken to... create... erm... perhaps a... a more comfortable relationship between bungalows that are about to be refurbished... and the new houses, because the new houses are designed in such a way as to... keep the scale down so... whereas the... terraced blocks were anything up to four storey, the new houses will only be two storey... and... in... a number of cases they will... they will be a relatively low two storey so that erm... I will just point out on the front elevations that... the roof comes down fairly low... relative to the... first floor windows... so that it's not too much above... the, the roofs on the bungalows, we're not talking about compromising people's heads on the internal though!... So, the other things that... had... erm... we've endeavoured to incorporate... is to try and not divide the estate, one of the... one of the aims of the master plan has been to... seen to integrate bungalows and any new housing together... and... in... a number of respects the demolition of the terraced blocks and... the... er er, putting back of more conventional two storey housing... has allowed us to do this by... rather than having... a access road running the whole length of the estate and similarly the that are running... past the length of the estate away from the houses... we've... we've put the houses where the road is... and the road where the house, where the terraced blocks were, erm... to form more of a conventional street scape so that people can look out... on their cars... and... that we, you actually got the new houses facing the existing ones. Erm... generally, the er... design of the houses compliments those which have already been built... at the er, Southern Way and the side of the Ayletts Field, and the extension to... Fern Hill... er, in terms of their materials... in terms of the landscaping, and they will... er, as close as it's possible to do... match... the refurbished bungalows... in terms of including features such as block paving... and erm... car ports. I think one point that erm, I wasn't sure if you were gonna mention it, is that... the proposals do actually encompass the allowance for additional parking for... erm, the residents... and proportion of garaging as well, and that's something that Moat are including within the... er, within their... construction contracts. Erm... so in in broad terms the master plan is is... unchanged in concept but we think improved in detail... the... is the other thing at each end... erm... represents on the left hand side... er, what is currently Honey Hill... I believe the name may be changed in due course... erm... and those behind me here are... the houses on the Fern Hill side... and then, although some of you will have difficulty seeing it at the moment, at the bottom there are... detailed drawings showing the internal arrangement of the houses and flats... and, and detailed drawings of the elevations... with dimensions, so one can have a... have a bit of a feel for the... the sort of space standards that we've aimed at, but there are in fact, furniture... plans shown on the drawings. Erm... Nick has obviously talked about the er, the phasing of the estate... erm, just to point out that... the reason for it, perhaps seeming a bit of long drawn out er... affair, it's, it's a, a minimum time as far as... erm, all the... people who have been negotiating feel it's achievable in... if we are to make sure that... the estate doesn't remain a building site... as as a... as a total entity fo, at any time, so... this site here will not commence until this site is completed so that there will be some... er, rest bite for the... bungalow residents and... of course, somewhere to park their cars in the... in the interim. Erm... I think that in in broad terms that covers the architectural aspects... we we have of course, as er, Paul mentioned at the beginning... erm... talked... the these designs through with the... Clark Hill, Honey Hill and Fern Hill Resident's Association and... they have erm... been, been shown the exhibition on the estate... and er... we believe that they've been well received... towards seeing what [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] the co, the confirmation on that [].... Erm, but certainly we... we're, we're happy to answer any, any questions if there are any. Thank you. Right, er, members, any questions to... the speakers?... Yes, Bill? I'd just like to ask er... if it's not to start on the... er... phase three before... the spring of ninety five, it seems a long time... two and half years... time... before they a, they make a start! Would it not be possible to... make an earlier start... in view of the great need for a... for homes, it seems a long time to wait? Er, for the, for the phase three, which is the one that we've got, the one's that are rented already... the, the money doesn't actually become available until... er... that date, spring ninety four. We're currently negotiating with the... er... the housing corporation to bring it forward, we wanna bring it forward... er... and we're, we're asking them if we could do that. We will also be taking a decision ourselves... er, as to the... the tender... part [cough] of it as well, because obviously... we could take advantage of the cheaper prices now to... to do it. As I said, spring ninety four is gonna be the latest date for the site... we want to start that phase as early as possible so that we can then get onto to the other phase... as early as possible because we obviously don't... particularly want to wait until... nineteen ninety five... ninety six... to, to finish the whole thing. Er, so our intention is to do as quickly as we can. Okay Bill? Any... body else, Ann? May I ask a question on the... this... er, the speaker said er erm... that it will be... down so that they on er er... or no particular help... on his accordance but... o on these here,o on the ones this isn't the case. Yes i, on, on the side which we believe er... matters, if you like, the side that faces the... er, the road, and faces the bungalows we we've sought to achieve that... erm, on the rear elevations it's perhaps a less important issue so... looking at any of the... erm... large coloured... elevated sheets... the upper drawing represents the street side, the side that faces the bungalows and the side where... scale issue becomes... er, more important and the lower drawing erm... where there's er... an eaves and gutter above the first is are actually the... the back garden side that erm... will be seen perhaps less. Do you know how many...... two bedroomed... one of the others. Also, are, are this lot, are on this Speak up! lot... er... pulled down? it's a... [cough] but... is there... a particular one? Er Yes, yes. ... this one here is it?... Is this, is this it?... That one here That one is the same both sides but I think that Yeah.... More of them. These ones Yeah. that's don't know this one. that particular on there... actually only occurs the once, it's in this position is... er, a cluster of... four houses together...... that erm is, if you like, as a, as a signature at the end of this particular So this one, this er, access road. is the main design? Tha, that is the one that occurs the most frequently, yes... by, by far. Thank you very much. Okay? Yes, Bill? On this question of priorities here I understand that... if we go along with local presses, to the housing corporation that this is a priority... and then they, they... can see to that... make the money available... when can we go along again... with another priorities? Erm... really it's an issue about the amount, what little amount of hag that... housing association grants are a... comes into... Harlow via the housing corporation... we don't have a lot to play with on any. Since I've been involved in... er, in the partnerships we've always... tried to have... a joint number one... with Three Hills and Church Langley as I explained before... and it's always been a very difficult balancing act... you know, to keep both going along. I'm sure you will agree that there'd be nothing worse than to start into a... erm... er, regeneration... idea on an estate and then... have a... a year or two's hiatus where nothing can happen because we're... er pushing the hag funding... elsewhere... in the town. Erm... by saying it's a priority we're not saying it's our only priority, we have... a number of priorities and it's... it's up to us to... in debate with the housing corporation... er, to come to the best agreements for Harlow. Jim?... Anybody else want... yes Tony? we'll be able use...... where are they going to go? Right... Well garages... the there are already some... here... and here, both in here and here that have been built as part of Ayletts Field. Are they entangled with the, the house, are they? No, the the... well some of them are, those particular ones some of them are joined but they are to all intents and purposes separate in that they can be... er, rented out separately... they're not tied to the house... erm... in that they are... they go with it but... the... housing department... have the opportunity to rent them to... whoever applies for them. And what would the rents be, any idea? Tha, that [LAUGHTER] I can't tell you []! That's probably Considering the er a question for housing department really. on what the county council are gonna Erm erm... then... we've got some more... erm... here in this position... and some more down here... and in fact, I think that we've managed to squeeze a few more into... erm, this position for the... bungalow refurbishment, that's obviously... an aside it's not part of... erm... what, what Moat are... proposing. So there's a few on each side of the estate. Where are the parking spaces? The parking spaces for the erm... bungalow residents... erm... are... are generally spread around in in a, in such a way as to... be as close as possible to the bungalows that they serve, they're not if you like, specific car park, but on this drawing they're, they're identified... it's simply that... the proportionate parking that the planners require for a construction of new houses is there... and then over and above that... there is further parking... which, if you like, will satisfy the need of the bungalow residents, though... they... may not necessarily be identified specifically. Er, as you can imagine if you try and tell somebody to park in one place that somebody else has parked already, you could end up with some... some misunderstanding, so there is... erm... a generous amount of parking to... bring the total parking to the whole area up to the level that was... erm... put forward in the first master plan. An and what about the disabled parking? Well... there are a number of spaces that are in positions which could be used by disabled, in other words, they are not sort of, sandwich tight against other spaces... and what's happened in the past is that erm... when a need has arisen... an and when perhaps there's been er... generally a bungalow that has been... er, occupied by somebody who's disabled then the housing department have... erm... modified that space... I mean,wha what we've actually done is we've er, taken a certain amount of block paving out but put back... some block paved logo, sort of, standard white er symbol that erm... that identifies disabled space... and... and, and that space is actually earmarked for that person, and it could happen in a variety of different locations... erm... it's just that... there's probably... not so much point in doing it until you know that there is... er... a specific need. Okay? Do you think they're wider? They're wider, yes. Oh good! Yeah... yeah. Right. Anyone else?... Thank you very much... I've Oh sorry were you trying to get attention? I I know the question about rent was mentioned... but, I'm just talking generally now, I asked this question to another housing association... how do you justify... rents of sixty pounds and above for accommodation and social housing? I mean, I know it's something to do with funding but could you just explain that for me? Yeah. Because we, I do not understand... how I All average rents on our... stock... across the whole of the south east... is twenty seven pounds a week... erm, I think is, is the figure now... the bulk of that funded down to the old... er regime that we had from the housing corporation... where we got... er, a lot more grant and we had the residual line and the money we've had to borrow ourselves for the scheme was actually from the corporation themselves... that all changed in the ninety eighty eight housing act... and we now get a fixed... er, sum of monies, it's fixed percentage of local cost... from the housing corporation... and the balance has to be borrowed from a private lender just like anybody else going out and... and buying a home, if you like... er, from a, a bank, from a building society or somebody like that... and we have to charge a rent... er... to the property that will repay that loan... and, the way in which we actually do it is, is we charge a lower rent and actually who pays the rent quite substantially below that... er, because erm the rent on these properties if we i if we charge what the the housing corporation's grant as it's set would be round about ten, twelve pounds more expensive than that. Er, it's not a funding system that er... that we would choose to... to work under, we would want to keep the rents as low as possible... er, but it's one that's set by... central government through the housing corporation... and that we have to live with. What we do do for our residents is employ a welfare benefit service... so that they can... maximise the er... the housing benefit section that that they're eligible for... to to make the po... properties as affordable... as as they can be. And obviously, we're, we're concerned that people... erm... will rent our properties... who will then be reliant entirely on housing benefit er and and and if they... increase their income they may be worse off!... Er... the fact of the matter is, it's the system that we as housing associations gonna have to live with... er... if if we're going to build new homes. Thank you. Alright secretary? Anyone else?... Right!... And can I then er draw attention to... the recommendation on one o threes... on er... one... er, sorry, on er... [LAUGHTER] []... B... the amended notes... that er... came... from... er, the area committee... er... and er... C. Are you all in favour of those? Oui! Oui! Mm. Do you want to... show... a a raising of... hands so that we can assure your agreement. Okay. Anybody against?... No. Right. Thank you very much. Then sit down now. Right... erm... we'll come on to item... three... er, with the questions from the public and er... Becky is going to... talk to... about er... questions. Thank you Chairman. Erm... on the supplementary paper sent round you will see at... I think it's page one and two, a letter received from the Carters Mead Resident's Association... erm... I hope you've all had a chance to read that as it was circulated to members in advance. Erm... this matter was raised at committee and I'd like to explain the item of committee that prompted the letter... from Carters Mead Resident's Association. Can I just say a few brief things to this, firstly, I share their concern entirely and totally... and I don't think there's an officer round this table who wouldn't agree with that, and I also believe, having met with all the board members this morning, I know that the board members similarly agree. Erm... we have taken various steps immediately, one is that the vandalism that taking place over the... erm... we have immediately re-secured, I have to say there's been about fifty erm... tickets out to re-secure those... those, that site over the summer but... they have been re-secured and tomorrow morning... there will be the commencement of bricking up... of the doors and windows of the ground floor of block D, block. Can I also say that the... erm... the fear expressed about Woolwich, I believe to be fairly well founded... Woolwich building, a Woolwich er, Building Society... had been on... erm, entered into a long time ago on this... erm... and the letter that was read out at Potter Street area committee from Woolwich indicated that they hadn't yet decided whether they would proceed... and er... I think is... I've talked to the publican since they have promised us an answer this week... er... we are intending, we have spoken, Dermot's also spoken to our managing director... we are confident we will have an answer from this week... and I have to tell you that I think the answer will either no, or it will be so hazy that we'll need to take some action and make a decision. I sa, as I say, I met this morning with the three members from Potter Street... erm... we do have various alternative proposals... for sa... ways forward should the village back out... and what I can say to you at this stage is that we have another meeting scheduled for next week, we will be meeting with the Resident's Associations keeping them fully informed... erm... we will ensure that the letter goes back to Mrs who... and the other Resident's Associations who expressed concern there... and that we will be taking, I hope, I hope because I'm gonna have to say if Woolwich back out we're going out we're going have to move very fast and do some quite... erm... in-depth work. We hope we will be able to take new proposals to Potter Street on the second of November... if nothing else, we will certainly take them... an honest indication of where we've got to so far... and what proposals will be taking place, and what we will be proposing... erm... for the future. But, I mean the concern Carters Mead Resident's Association I think is well founded, I think there's been a lot of problems... and er... I think it can come upon us all to keep talking with them and to improve the situation should... the should Woolwich back out. Thank you Melanie. Er, I noticed Mrs is in the audience, is there anything you'd like to say referring to what the officer Erm has said? just to... to verify the fact that we are making so many, you said about pulling out as well is there a possibility of that? Erm Well hm... you can see that er, members are also very concerned about it... and er... we've er,i there are external circumstances that... you know, we have to look into first. But erm... Mrs, said she will keep you informed of... will discuss with the er, residents and the board of councillors. . If I could just say one other thing, that is that... I've had a... an initial of, of the blocks done... and... pending the outcome of Woolwich... which I expect to get tomorrow... erm, if they are backing out then I will be getting a full structural, engineers structural survey... within a couple of days, this is the actually meeting plan. Mm. Yes. Er er anybody got any questions to put to Melanie, er about er... yes, er yes er Norma? Yeah, I'm... rather concerned that this kind of thing seems to be happening rather a lot, I mean this is so reminiscent of what happened in the, the four maisonette in... in Fern Hill where we had empty blocks left for a long time... erm... becoming a magnet for... vandalism and all kinds of everything! We've also seen it happening, to an extent in properties in Bishopsfield as well erm... I really think we need to get to grips with... what we seem to be doing, which de-counting people prematurely early... er, in response to, to housing developments which we are planning to undertake in in partnership with other people... and leaving ourselves open to this and not [whispering] Well what could we be doing you tell yourself, []. not only can pose as a danger but it presents... er... the unsightliness... erm... an and all the other problems associated with that. It seems to be happening far too often, and I wonder i I wonder... what's actually going wrong that this happening so often and in so many places, seems to be something that... you know, perhaps we need to address it... far more generally as a problem of housing management as a whole. Er... well if I can er... answer some of those er, points. Er, first of all, I ensure that people are not de-counted unless they have er, wished to go... and maybe that their... their dwellings are er, in er... a state of er, disrepair... or there's something structurally wrong that they feel unsafe er, in them... and then er, they are, I don't like the word de-counted, but... then they er, are offered er other accommodation. I would agree with you that if the... if we have gone along and said to people, well er yo, we've got alternative accommodation for you... and they haven't wanted to go then, well I'm sure that we hope not to give them that er... er, alternative accommodation... er, and it's not in our interest at all to er, keep er, places empty, and further more we haven't really got er enough... er, alternative places to put er, these er... tenants in... so I'm that it's as the result of the sort of dwellings that er... we've er... we now find ourselves with... as a result of the er... initial buildings... in the first place. But we won't go into that, that's history! But it would be very interesting if er... you had a positive er... proposal or something constructive to make which we might be able to examine, but I can tell you at the end of the day... money is required and this government won't allow to spend er, the money that er... we have got er er erm... at the moment that we could, er use but they won't let us. And further more, they don't come up er, with the er right amount of money for our needs... er, but er it is er, duty bound er... to us. I'm not disputing that, I'm simply saying that perhaps we have a management problem here where we could be doing things differently and I'd like to hear some positive suggestions from housing officers as to how you can address that. Oh!... Well now er, if you've got some... critical comments about the management of it perhaps you could write and we have a look at them. Alright?... Any other members want any... comments on Carters Mead... indeed other?... No. No. Right. Thank you. Well thank you for your comments anyway erm...... we'll get er back to our next er... item er, on the agenda. We've got a couple of erm... er, oh that was the only one from the er... questions is it? Yes, that's the one from there But it's right. Er, unfortunately Perhaps Bill could contentious items... I've suggested five D and eleven... eleven Got it here. ele eleven D yes. five hundred copies. five. Oh yes, that's right we... right yes, five... and er... eleven D. Er, eleven is B. the same. B... B., yes. That's right. Sorry about that!... Er, then erm... er, we come to... er, museums... er, spoken. Right, thank you very much June. If I could draw members attention to the supplementary papers... erm... and it's page three... which is the second report... and it will become... I will make it clear with regards to the er... linking up of the two reports, both museums and Essex committee... linked up to the museum registration. Erm... members will re... ma, will be reminded the report was requested at the last personal services committee with regards to the council's involvement... in the current museums and Essex committee... er, I'm also requesting... er, the financial contribution that this council actually makes to that committee. Erm... the report identifies the history... of the committee... and outlines the benefits that Harlow has achieved through membership. I'd like to highlight the er... a quote by the county museum's officer... with which the predominately the amount of er contribution which was agreed by this council on the twenty third of March ninety ninety... er which actually relates to the size of the population, I will actually point that the thousand pounds... has actually increased to one thousand three hundred, this year, because of, population has actually increased since then. We've already valued the use of free displays or whatever... erm... if I could point out the recommendations that the members agree in the report, the members agreed Harlow Council's continued membership of the museums and Essex committee. Right. Are there are any members any... comments to make on these? Agreed. Are they Agreed for it?... Does anybody oppose the recommendation. No. Thank you. The, the actual link is... linked to museum registration... which I'm sure members will remember erm... with regards to the long running saga of... the additional storage facilities. And going through on page... sixty five... in the main agenda... this outlines the current plan... to achieve registration for Harlow's museums... in order to achieve... to achieve the a... the a a and tangibility to grasp... to to obtain aid from the museum's national bodies. Agreed. Agreed. Right. Thank you very much. Erm... seven, neighbourhood er welfare candidate. Rejected. Yes, at the last meeting these committee members... did ask that er... he produce some... details of... help and... and a number of cases dealt with... have been apparent... and the details are... presented for, for amendment.. Thank you. Who was it who wanted to know something on that? Yes I It's it's me. Yeah, I would like to do is just mention that... it's so surprising really that er... the resources used are... out of all proportion to... what we used to er... do on it, on the other central panel. We've had ten meetings and only thirty cases, and that'll be the three cases where... each meeting spread over a... five different locations, which er... doesn't seem a very good way to use our resources!... So what I was wondering was er... the scheme is in it's infancy this... and I'm all in the favour of the... decentralising... in principle, but... I think we ought to perhaps look at it... a bit closer, and I would suggest... that we have an up-to-date report... at the next meeting of this committee... so we can compare... it over a longer term... so, as that we might then... reflect on a... if we're doing the right thing or not. But it seems a waste of the resources to er... have er, ten different meetings for thirty cases we... that's, that's my view but, I would like to see another report at the next meeting... so as we can compare. Right... er Frank have you got any comments er... to make on that? Yes, I I... Councillor is quite right, I mean it is a new... new departure to centre these panels in the neighbourhoods, it was always our intention to come back... after a... a period had elapsed... er,we, with the new system to... bring to members attention the success or otherwise of the neighbourhood panels. Erm... and certainly... I think... I think in going to neighbourhood panels it was... it was to serve a democratic process of... tenants being able to panels local to their... that area... and... I think in that sense erm... it has been successful... and certainly, I think as far as we were concerned... er, it avoids the... perhaps intimidating nature of, of tenants appearing in a large... centre of the various panel... which er... I think was... er, certainly one of the members wishes when we started... on a neighbourhood basis... but, yes it was our intention and, I would think that it's quite reasonable to ask us to bring the report to the next meeting... er... with a better explanation of how the council works so far. Yeah. May I ask... er, another question is... of the thirty cases... in the neighbourhood... the tenants don't need. No, I haven't that information,tha that... that detail was asked... for, but I do know that er... that certainly in a majority of cases... because they are local... erm... the attendance from tenants was... certainly substantial... and I would of, but certainly far more than you would expected if the panel perhaps had been... inside a.... . Er, just a minute, I'll ask Ann and then Lesley. Ann? I wa I wanted a a point that er... respond... er neighbourhood and the manager I spoke to said that the areas that were the case... since er,de decentralisation... because er... people are... er er in coming to... neighbourhood offices and that of the... of the managers... arrange er er... er... aims or er...... either run in in two neighbourhoods er... er... I I feel personally it's been very worthwhile because we were able to... talk to the... er, they they they were never able to go and and and they came to the... er, the neighbourhood offices international conducive er er... er... or er er ah i i in areas they want to talk to..., so I I, I personally would would like to see... this continuing er for... perhaps a... it isn't the best value for money i i i it certainly far better for for for can come to their neighbour office... Speak to Thank you. . Thank you Ann. Les? Thank you,. Er, as you know, I haven't been exactly an enthusiastic supporter of neighbourhood erm... areas, but I have to confess Some never attended them! [LAUGHTER] I have to confess... that on that, in so far as those that I've attended, and I've had a couple in my area... I have to confess my surprise at the efficiency of them! And I really see that the public now... certainly... they give... certainly for the benefit of the a ten, the tenants that A are presented Yes. there... in comparison with the archaic way of old Bill's seventeen round this table... [cough] Oh that's quizzing people... don't go back to that way, that old system! The people there are... that's going to the neighbourhood are getting... a fair crack of the whip... and they're being the centre of that every week. Er er, I wish the man wo wouldn't put words into my For what it's worth mouth Chairperson! No. I understand. I say I think that's quite No. wrong! I I Interpretation was You're not archaic and the and the er... the me er the meeting to be called not And we archaic cos we have the... Don't take it personal Bill! It wasn't meant Well er, he meant it, you meant it personal! Yes, alright, yes. Do breakdown Could we do it Come along! of Councillor conversion, decentralisation Yes! [LAUGHTER] Yes! Yes! And I think that'll be gone on very late, yes. Jim? Yes Chairer, why don't we pat ourselves on our, on the back about this... it would it be useful i in in the the report, a further report that's gonna come forward... if there could be some indication as to actual format that was... adopted... when a person goes to one of his welfare panels, cos I've been to three and there doesn't seem to be any consistency whatsoever... in the way that things occur or whatever!... I don't think Right. it's entirely fair! Yes, I think that's up to the Chairer so Oh, I think it's up to the council Chairer to say what, what procedure should be so, in fairness,. Yes, yes. There is one other... point, although... erm... you know, it's good that they are... in the er areas which the tenants... er, live so it's er... not very difficult for tenants to come and see their councillors... but er... er, there is a difficulty at times... when er... the er... air... the housing manager... has to ring around to get the er members, who are able to... sit on that panel... and sometimes that is difficult because we have just three members... and sometimes they can't all fit in... the, whereas when you have a larger group... if one member can't attend, there's invariably sufficient there to... be able to come to a decision so I think that that's on the other... side of the balance sheet. But, altogether yo, er... sorry, you wanted to say something on that? Yes, I do sorry!... I, I don't often agree with Jim about anything, but I really do agree with him about this, that there has to be some... clear guidelines, I think, as to how these are fixed, they are not going be... have the potential of being very unfair to people because people operate in different ways in different areas and I would... suggest that it would be a good idea if this community were to ask for... erm... guidelines to be drafted for this committee to agree so that there is... a more even... fair, laid down procedure for dealing with the cases coming before the panel. Right, well we'll look into... we'll look into that. Any other members got any comments on this? If it's a problem with numbers and... why don't we extend the numbers on the panel? I mean No!... Couldn't put the numbers up! Well I think that that is the problem is with... how... the is conducted... who gets the first bite? Who puts their case first? Who Yeah. that that type of thing. I understand that but what I'm talking about. Three people on the panel is that right? Well t... yes, and it has Well no I haven't got a problem I I have feelings about it, I I I mean, my, generally my experience... I don't know I haven't discussed... with other members but er, when I... the panel that I... er, allocated to erm... and I was telephoned, could a make, and certain dates were made and I finally made one then I was told, oh no that's... not convenient! At the end we er, of the day... I had to opt out because it wasn't possible for me to fit in... and someone else a, I'm just thinking of the time... taken for er, er housing manager or one of his... er, staff... to erm... er, you know, to do that practical thing that's all Oh yes that I'm of course it should! saying. But we'll look into er... the format I think. Can we have a further report please? Yes, there's going to be a procedure and a report er... is er... and and we're going to have another... report Frank, yes. Thank you... er, very much. Right, now we get... er back to... the er, and we've got er, item which is... er, the council's er response the proposed merger of the health er... authority. Erm... er, it's Vince.... Thank you Chairer. Erm, the latest round of erm... proposals to come before you as part of the N H S reforms are the consultation document that we... we received recently... and proposals to the merge the three existing... area health authorities in North Essex to form... one merged unit. We've attempted, Chairer, to... assess this proposal and then to set a criteria... I think it's... important for members to understand that currently there is a consortium... that er, is in operation, fully operational... that is carrying out the tasks erm, that are identified in the consultation document... mainly... erm... the consultation document itself does erm... show exactly what the health authority is doing... erm, the proposal now before you is to extend that erm... to one merged unit of health authority... with one executive board... erm... based with three local health clinics... erm, to provide the service. We've... made an assessment on the single reports, yeah... and we're asking members to... erm, give us guidance on the principles it and your response... in order to, to get a response to... the regional health authority by this Friday. Erm... I do apologise for this but er... unfortunately we have no choice I suppose.... Right... er, any comments from members er, from this er, report?... Anyone Yes Chairer er... I think Vince's report is a... very fair summary of the er... the... the issues which face us... erm... truth is, is what we've been as... in this... proposed consortium which no doubt will go through with it's... most of the reforms of the N H S... despite the er... consultation mechanism which they've gone through you know, but... largely these are beforehand given the unaccountable of the... N H S management!... What we're actually lo doing here is... those of longer members who remember... we used to have a thing called the area health authority... which was proposed in a three tier structure... by... a corporation called the McKenzie corporation at great expense charity governed by three quarters of a million pounds... to invent structure of the National Health Service nineteen seventy two... some years later they came back and said, well give us another million pounds and we'll go back and look at it again, and say actually we were wrong, and they abolished the areas, and produced districts! And what we're getting here actually is a recreation of the area health authority... they're actually gonna be situated in the same office block... where the old area authority used to be in Witham... erm, and the community health council which I represent this authority on... has certainly been... er, raising a number of questions about this... for fear of centralisation in Witham, erm... with perhaps... the lack of accessibility to local needs of West Essex... and in Harlow particularly,. The question that the senior, the middle management staff... will propose the authority, has been drawn almost exclusive, exclusively from North East... and the Mid-Essex health authorities and not from... West Essex. Cos, of course, the West Essex management staff... have been co saddled with another project which is to provide a trust... for the East Herts and West Essex... health providers, i.e. P A H and associated health services providers... and surprise surprise! in this council chamber... Chief Executive of the West Essex Health Authority has become the Chief Executive of the provider trust... despite that, it's not gonna be approved by the Secretary of State, but certainly a conference which she's speaking at in, she is named as the Chief Executive! Actually, I didn't see the job advertised, I must admit, I was going to apply for it myself of course! [LAUGHTER] Ah but, surprise surprise! It seems she's been appointed without any advertising which... would seem to flow... equal opportunities promises here, the government and the health service really believe in it! So... because they don't like the sound of this... the other two have drawn off their magic stone and got them into the top jobs in... er... consortium! Er... now it claims, of course that this is a more efficient purchasing mechanism... on behalf of the patients and the community of this area... the problem is, of course, it depends what you mean by efficiency... and the truth is, that we may get... increased our purchasing in terms of frugal as they put it delicately our patients!... But actually it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the care which they're purchasing... and the evidence that we are getting increasingly from the community health council is the experience of people of the health service... is that actually the quality of the care is getting worse... and this is not due to the staff in the health ee the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the e the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the for an operation... er, four years, it should to be said... er, she's been waiting despite the government's claim that all operations are done within two years... er... for very severe varicose veins and... surprisingly enough she got them because of course most varicose have been removed her, the north-east Thames region... erm, and er... she turned up on the Wednesday and... the operation had been postponed twice previously... er, she was er... gone through all the er, various tests which took her four hours cos she had to... find all the places herself, there was nobody to show her to X-ray and various other places... erm... she was prepared for the op and then was sent home because there wasn't a bed available!... And told to turn up the next morning, waited another four hours, finally... a patient who'd had an operation... for a serious gall bladder operation two days before hand was kicked out of his bed and sent home... so that she would be put in the bed, given the operation! This is actually the state the of health service... and the truth is that all of these organisational changes... are really not gonna solve the basic problems of the health service which is under- funded and under-resourced. So, I think we should say... we are sceptical, and I think the paper puts it correctly... er, we are sceptical of whether the reforms of the first consortium in fact, is going to meet the needs in terms of new health area... and I know that time will come, they're talking about the lot, it's gonna wonderful and that the... our economies should get... all I can say is that the likelihood is... the only f the area committee... er, so that residents can... comment managers, but since we've already had... a nine hundred percent increase in senior management in the health service in the past five years... up from nine hundred to... over ten thousand... at a cost of fifty to two hundred and fifty million pounds... I'm rather sceptical about that one as well! So, in general, I think we should be... as sceptical er and critical of any of these proposed changes... and the key point of course was the... at the lack of accountability, but there'll be even less accountability... one suspects... in the new consortium. Final question perhaps we should raise... is... well... is there actually gonna be a need for it in two three years time down the track? If all providers going into trusts... and if all... er... purchasing gonna be done by fund holders, the majority of whom are confident at this stage... they'll become fund holders... what actually is the role of the purchasing consortium that be... and role of the health authorities, as such... er, other than perhaps to collect statistics in the future of our time... the climbing and quality of the health service in this area? Thank you Hugh. Anyone who wants to Yes,? Thanks. Erm, I really feel that this consultation is coming... more than a too late because we started on the slippery slope when the consortium was er... first dreamed of o, you know about a year ago and set up in April... and that really this is the sort of the inexorable... next move, and this consultation is far far too late!... Erm... I think that... Vince has raised of very personal questions that we have ask about this... erm... the question of local accountability... of the... health authority... board that will be created by this... the... to service this new... joint health authority, would in fact, be the size of the existing one for West Essex and we would ha, have only a third of the representation that we currently have the whole of West Essex... we'll only have two non- executive members on the... health authority board and I don't think that that is terribly accountable but certainly... a considerable reduction on what we've got at the moment. Erm... not only will people have to travel a lot further for treatment, as was admitted at the public meeting... erm... last Monday, here in Harlow... but... er... if people want to is maybe they'll one or two less senior f the area committee... authority... they will have to travel to Witham or Colchester or whatever, by absolutely execrable public transport if they don't drive a motor car... to actually attend those meetings and that's not democratic or accountable either!... Erm... on the financial side, I don't think savings of a hundred thousand pound or the pay an non-executive out of a budget of... two and hundred eighty million for the total of the three health authority is actually... a heck of a big saving to justify what's happening!... Erm... what this is really about, I think we all recognise this... is... the... erm... purchaser aim to increase their leverage in the contract situation as against the providers on the other side of contract... and in fact, I think we ought to tie this very much more in with what... this authority has been saying about the proposals of the trust on the provider side because... I think that this is an argument against the whole district N H S trusts that we're getting, but it is... encouraging the situation in which health authorities have purchasers on the other side of the contract are going to want to band together and merge to create a larger block in which to negotiate with their whole trust providers, I think this is a... a very dangerous situation and think we needed to tie the two together... as an argument there. Erm... and i also need to be concerned that... the health authority I think is claiming that this merger will actually give them a better... erm... size population for research purposes for... for purchasing, however, I think that it may well be that particular health needs, people in West Essex and Harlow in particular which has, for example, a rapidly ageing population and therefore needs facilities had not been planned into the town... by way of health... erm, that those statistics, those pockets of need are going to get overlooked in a much more large and vast disparate... statistical picture, stretching from Hertfordshire right across to the coast... I think it's too big a sample and we need to make sure that our specific needs aren't going to be overlooked in all that. Erm... it's quite clear there's going to be no more... new money for patient care and... without that I don't think we're going to get the increase in quality of service but... that we actually need. I think also in those... very tough times ahead I think it's a very difficult decisions to be made about what services are provided... erm, and what operation people are actually going to be able to have done... and I wonder how much local people are gonna have a chance to say anything about that in the situation in which their health service... their health authority is based so far away. Erm... I've... mentioned accessibility, I would raise that again, I'm a non-driver... erm... it's easy to hop in a car and get from here to Chelmsford, if you want to do it by public transport it is a nightmare... erm... the meeting here on, on Monday which was very poorly attended, and I understand that's been the pattern right across the area, and I don't think the health authority is that interested in finding out what people have thought to be honest!... Erm... it is admitted that people are gonna have go much further to get their treatment... ah, that was quite clearly stated as part of the the down side of it, and I don't think we can tolerate that until we've got... a decent public transport system that's going to allow patients... to get by public transport from here to Colchester or Witham or Clacton or wherever and er... and their, their relatives and friends... to be able to follow to visit them if... you know, as necessary. Erm... so that's a a whole of responses to... to this, I think we need to be far more clear... in our opposition to this, I think it's a very dangerous situation it's one that's happening... across the country, we're not the only sufferers and I think consortia have been very dangerous things from the beginning, and are leading... inextricably to the merger that we... we put before us as a proposal tonight, and I think we really should be quite strenuous in our position to it. Thank you. Any other... comments?? Simon? Hello. As you saying to us all only to be said interest in the matter... i in the... erm the merging matter to.... The problem I've found with... paper... erm... it was... confusing, misleading... and erm... very misleading. Throughout... visions of, people who also come out tonight there's... there's been obviously er, a potential saving of a hundred thousand pounds on... on members... erm... I... I'm not gonna... I don't that's right. That's your salary Simon! Yes. [LAUGHTER] Yes. too closely... I don't actually recall seeing in the... er... in the actual wo... consultation documents... erm... funding... is not one of the issues... being addressed by... the merger with. You went to the public meeting Simon, that's the problem! I'm sorry? You went to the public meeting, that is what They they said! They actually quoted a hundred thousand pound Er figure did they? can we just have er... just one person talking please? Simon will you continue. They were. Sorry? What... what the government, what the erm... the consortium and... paper's about... er, is improving... the, the identification band that was hanging over of of health care, once that recipe is will get much larger consortium... er, it's much widespread of... er, devotion, expertise... er, er... professionalism in in assessing health needs... er... think about one of those areas that have been... saved from in West Essex over the last... over the last few years... and by going into a much larger group with more resources erm, there will, they will be able to... actually... er... work... er... far, far more effectively in... sorting out what's actually needed. One of the other things I found that people are conflicting in the paper... erm... is of people having to travel further... erm... if I can just... yes, on pa, on page three, paragraph this is the choice that seems of the area... and the travel... and on page four, paragraph one... the version says that local people will still get a choice of... i in the London hospitals. We could only...... er... er, in... it's not quite clear whether... erm... we're in favour of sending people all the way down to London for their health care, but we're not... in favour of sending... anywhere,anywhe where more local... for... the the... erm, you know I, I'm not quite sure what you want... you know what what... point the lady's trying to get across there. In Er In a minute Vince if but recent problems on . . I know they propose Then o on page... five... I found... a quote that... there was nothing... particularly in the consultation document for... merger... referring to finance apart from the... increase coming from the changes... and that question... er, the, I take your points... er, in fact referring to the... and provider unit. Well... in... when you're considering... the the possible merger of the three health authorities, they haven't positioned any one particular private... er, provider unit is, is not really the crucial issue at hand!... If you wanna make a point about that well... well we'll point about them... erm... there is... er... a comment... erm... in this erm... erm... yeah on paragraph, paragraphs four and five, page five the first of we will buy them... including all the legislation that will reduce... and if you got up to page three, paragraph six... there's a claim that levels are eight percent higher on the same money!... But... you know,the these people ha have hardly been treated... erm... and a, a contract for obtaining more health care year by year... so, you know... if yo, if you're saying that... erm... these wi will will reduce or that the action has already taken place, it can't reduce... erm... so, then again it's, it's not really relevant to... erm... the... proposal of running a, a health authority, you know, these people should talk. Erm... I've, I I think I'll... erm... was talking about... people attending the health authority meetings at the moment... but the local health authority do move meetings around, Saffron Walden... Bishop's Stortford, Harlow and and and one over at... erm... and this apart from it's... was only us coming from Harlow at the meeting last week... and the health authority met in Harlow... er, you know... the me... the meetings are moving about, they are there for people to come to... but if they're not coming to... to the meetings while they're o on on the doorstep... then, then really what else can the health authority do... to me, to make people come?... You know I... erm... Hugh was talking about erm... somebody being thrown out of hospital after gall bladder operation after only two days... well fortunately... these days there are... one or two strives in er... in in health care... erm to...... erm... which is very much easier to... er, operate on people if you're... if you... if you're going to put them out... cos the operation's more er... simpler... it's far less stress on patients and and, and they they're becoming a lot quicker... er, clearly if faded out... er, the way is completed then er... obviously things are serrated with... with the... chief executive of the... health authority... and... I'd like to give you this... October when... when the Chief Executive was.... ! Yes. Best person I think, you know. [LAUGHTER] Erm... there is... just one, may I just... er, make one final... point... erm... paragraph on page four refers to improvements in services of minority groups... and... also on... page five and six... [reading] the need for sa input, input into priorities shall not be able to for this []. One of the main purposes of o of a consortium is actually looking at the health needs... erm... it's... impressions that I've... I actually got o on a number of occasions that I've er... I think involvement in... assessing health needs... but I've actually answered anywhere... er, and I'd very interested as to how... or what kind of... input erm... we will be looking to... on that? Thank you, er Simon. Er er... if they want to come back on anything... Hugh? Do, do you, no? No, no, I mean No, right. I could come back and then Yes. can I say to Simon that Er, but is, are there any other questions before er er... on the report... that er... Dermot and Vince has I think we ought to have a... an adequate response Chairperson to the Yes, well just a minute! I want... er, I'm just asking if er, anyone's got er, comments to make to Vince... and then Vince will reply to them, that's the point, he's got to reply to... some of the comments er, that er... Simon has made... and then we'll come to... what we want... our response to be. So as there's no other comments... er, Vince would you... have you got any? Yes Chairman, the figure of a hundred thousand as we said did, was erm... a figure quoted on by account chief's executive of the purchasing consortium... erm, that was spoken at a public meeting held here in Harlow last week... erm... the issue of the the transport around the area... erm, was accepted by the the chief executive of the health authority... erm... or of that of the consortium... erm, and the and the view that... it would be much more difficult with the lack of public transport to get to the more relo, remote areas of Essex... the... the reason that the erm... reduced use of London was put into this report was also... erm, clearly stated by the chief executive,i it's their clear aim... to provide more of, to purchase more of the services from within the north Essex area, and that was stated in a major part of the conta, of of their... erm... achievements... and that automatically means a reduced amount of choice for those people who would... otherwise for, to London. Erm... it is er fair to say that London's far easier to get to... er, from Harlow than certain areas in Essex are... erm, those are direct comments from... the chief executive of the proposed... erm health authority. The financial position of the provider, this was erm... well in the report because... the consultation document that was...... it quotes a figure o of... erm, in the amount of... patient's treated... erm, with the same amount of money. However, one has to bear in mind that at the last meeting of the West Essex Health Authority erm... they are saying that they can't carry on treating the same amount of people... erm, because they're overspend already this year... and that they will not treat these er, extra contractual referrals... without prior funding being approved... and that was co, that was actually stated at the meeting last week. Erm, so that that was put in the meeting to show a balance, if you like, between, yes they've achieved an eight percent but over last two years... the providal unit have run deficit... and erm... one interacts with the other... and that was, that was also something that er... that's Erm not true. The last thing I would say Chairer on the erm, what else can the authority do? Health authority meetings can't, they aren't very well publicised... erm... and in fact, sometimes we have go over and, and get our own agendas... and er... I would suggest that perhaps... would it be possible for them to be much better publicised than they currently are? Yes. Thank you Vince. Now, er erm... are there any members who want to add to er what's... er, has been written in er this er... response? I think that er Vince has has raised a point about er... erm, informing er and consulting local people and to let local people... know... erm... when the meetings are then local can't go, I'm sure that... if they really wanted people to come they'd make it much more... er, in... erm... with the advertising so clear that er people would be able to... and also if they had it at the times when... a their meeting... at the times when it was... mostly convenient to... er, the general public. Hugh, do you want to comment? Yeah I was gonna move erm... on a suggestion that we had not been convinced of the need for this consortium by er, so far... and and that certainly we as an authority... er, have remained opposed to it on the grounds that we've stated the terms of accountability... in terms of the er, sensitivity to local needs in terms of transport issues... and in terms of the clear intention to restrict patient choice... erm... which I think is a key think which should be emphasised Yes. the evidence that we've found out already from C H C... is that the operation of the N H S reforms has restrictive patient choice... because... crucially those referrals to London teaching hospitals which used to made as a matter of course if treatment is unable er, unavailable in Harlow... have actually been largely stopped, I got the detailed figures from the purchasing director... erm... er, recently in the C F C minutes... and it shows a miniscule number of patients being referred to London teaching hospitals... erm, and this is clearly the reason as this points out in this paper that London teaching hospitals are in serious financial problems and... four of them, indeed are being threatened with closure by... the Tomlinson report... and I think many patients in Harlow would much rather... as er, people have pointed out, go to er, Middlesex and U C H, should they still exist... than to go to Colchester... and er, but this is this a key question, so... on the the basis of the this consortium doesn't meet those criticisms indeed, make the situation worse I move that we oppose it in principle that Vince reports on that line. So seconder for that? Seconded. Seconded, yes but Lorna? Erm... ya, I mean I've already... had what, I've had what I've had to say about the... the the content of the thing I was... merely going to ask where we go from here? I'm aware that our backs are up against the wall as regards time because the response is meant to be in by Friday... erm... I don't think actually that this is... the the paper that Vince is presenting, although in fact, surely raises issues, I don't think it is actually response as it stands, I think it is a paper which raises... items of issues for... this committee to consider, I don't think in itself it serves as a response. Erm... I wonder how substantially it's going to re-written, first, in order to make it a response rather than an issue raising paper... and ah, secondly, in the light of what we've all had to say this evening... and, if it is to be re-written... I wonder... erm... who is going to actually see it and approve it [LAUGHTER] before it goes off [] in time to get to the health authority by the day after tomorrow? Well that's er cos normally they a matter will be er... that we going to fight er, easily... er... so... I mean i, it meant that the er, that er... er... some... more should be brought out so that it er... does er... adhere to... what er these er... er... government departments er... expect as a response rather than er er as this considered issue raising er, we can er... facilitate that er... quite er easily but er... I think er... the... the main point is what... Hugh has said, that er... we opposed it because it's not going to help... in my view... it's not... going to help er the patients, the patients are not going to come off any better as a result of er, these er... er what I would say and I feel... and er... the, I I... I'd like to know what er the GP's think about cos GP's usually... erm... er, advise their patients if they have to wait a long time... from one hospital, they would advise them to go into London... and er, if that's been stopped as been er... that's been stated... erm... then erm, er the GP's are not going to feel very happy about their patients... er, getting er... erm... a lesser service. So, the patients and our residents are our main er concern... and er, if we all... er, oppose it in principle and er, er er then er let us see how... we'll erm... er, revamp this er... response. Alright?... Jim? Yes Jim? ... considering, I mean, there is a closing date quite quick Mm. well may I propose that... we put all this along of the lines with flexible that they expressed the committee tonight and use? Exactly!... We use Right, thanks. Er, I don't know if you... er, meant er er er... the various plans to achieve... er, i in that order but I certainly... want obey patient's choice... er, er er a a at first that's the reasons I've found. Well yes, that will come out er.... And and you mentioned GP's, I mean, this is one way of almost perhaps forcing some GP's to become er erm... a fund holders, because then they can go an an an and buy their er er... patient care from wherever they the they want to! But this er er er if they're not fund holders that they er er er and then it's a way out for... er. Yes. Yes. Right, thanks er, Ann. Right, we agree with erm Agree. . Thank you very much. On the next er, item er, the er... erm... an elective member to represent the council on the purchasing strategy group ee er er... you would I would... like the move. Well, I was going to say we're take it to council... alright? Alright.... Yeah, okay. Erm, can I? Yes. And I've kept. And now last week. erm... on the next er, item... er we have er on item ten we've got the welfare... rights and er advice and we've... got quite a long report which I hope you'll agree... is an excellent report, er and er... Sue is here to present it. Sue... please? Page seventeen to ninety four. Erm... because the report is er... quite a long report... mainly the er part of the report erm... I will pick out the most important comments... and... if I could take the first part of the report first... erm... this concerns a new staffing structure between... er, newly emerged welfare rights and advice service. Erm... the council erm, the welfare and associate advi advice centres since nineteen seventeen eight... however, until March of this year... erm... the staff... the counter staff within the advice centre were divided into to two departments... er, the information and community services department... reported to committees... and, as a result of the general move within the council and the service department to er... neighbourhood... erm... offices and called the support services. We were asked to erm... come up with a new structure... erm, and... and it, the purpose of this report and to put that. The... I think the erm... the main point that I'd like to make is that erm... the structure... as it's posed... erm...... is for... the same number of staff... erm, however, the three, what were supervisory stroke managerial posts... erm... have... changed, we feel, as a result of the merger... and therefore, and there are three... er little posts... mainly, a head of, people called a head of... and a head of the support, support... a support services manager... and a support services officer... and erm... the appendix details the main... er, functions in each post, er those posts. But erm... certainly they... er... if they are... er, graded as we anticipate... there will perhaps be a small saving, in fact, as a result of the merger. And I think they are graded... slightly higher than the as, they they will come out at the same cost, same overall costs. And the new structure... erm... moves towards... erm... team working across the advice centre composes of three teams... er... and also, takes on the critical self managing team... so that erm... in terms of the... this work and technical support that er, has in the past been offered by a team leader, er, team leader and advice centre manager... that will be, in the future will be offered by a senior member of staff... erm, for each other and for less experienced staff.... The teams will er, in the service part, which is the second part of this report is, is who? Erm... the the service channel will be divided into the three teams... and the teams will be expected to deliver... erm... an agreed level of service within the... which ever is available.... So chaired... the first part of the report I recommend that the structure as outlined... erm, be approved... and that the necessary recruitment take place as soon as possible. Er, I understand that if that... those recommendations are approved this evening... that that will then go to erm council staffing... erm, which is currently erm, decided... the overall... er, priorities intended. Okay, I don't know whether I repeatedly... er, members of the council like to ask questions about the structure so they can ask, and I can move on, so The next, well I'll give them tha, er ja, er Jim, yes? Yeah, I I will take only part of this debate as my daughter works in. Alright Jim... Okay. Er, Ann, yes? Now personally I understand that the benefit shop is o er er er will be moving to the advice... dispensing of centre shortly. Er, what... co-operation or a ar ar ar ar you,? The these could of been [LAUGHTER]... yeah, they were bringing er er an, I'm bringing it in because I Ann I'd rather you keep the reports if you don't Yes. mind! An and perhaps for that, I've never heard that one before! [LAUGHTER] . [LAUGHTER] Or or jumping up the council's face! The the the the the the of the Benefit Shop, I make people advice... and several of us were set on, on on on er er... that you handled recently... er er er er i it was the. Am I allowed? Yes, you can. Yes, but er... we're really dealing er... with Yes. the advice centre and what has happened to... with erm... er, I've er, if you've read the reports you'll see that er, that had been working er under er er er a considerable amount of er... er stress and strain. Erm... there's been a reduction er, in the... er, staff er because er er people have moved on... and er, I take Sue's point about er if it weren't for the fact that erm... they'd got fully e e experienced staff who've been there some time, they haven't, not used to this churning over o of, and therefore, that has paid off in er... in er... in erm so far as being able to deal with the problems that have arisen... and er, you'll see further on... er, addition profiles of the work that's been done with er... in this area over the town. Er, the, so something must be done quickly, I fear, about the er, management er... of er, er the, the new structure... and I hope you would agree to it unless anyone else has got, yes? Er i i is Harry? council gonna... erm... pose it in the areas closer to it? Well, er that's been, that's been outlined in er... er,i in the er, the report! Yes, but I think. All, all I wanna ask really is that erm... er, is the staff happy with it? I mean... that's the main thing,i in... that staff. As long as you that situation, I mean that's the main thing. Well that it means that we've got, there's going to be... er, a certain amount of extra staff though required, that's what's in... in the report. Well you can start by not depending on the structure er er... the structure of which Susan's speaking Yes. Yeah. seems to me is a very sensible... organise the system... most effectively... er... whether there's any... but that's not affecting the structure. bit And the the structure. I've just asked Sue, I'm sure you wrote this with the full support of your staff? Yes. Yes. Well I'll second what Peter said. What did you say again? Erm, structure. [LAUGHTER] And very... system Just a minute! structure is the the the er... Sue wants to write it down what you've said... are you moving... that we Yes, that er, the recommendations that er..., presumably our service approved which has got structure in it, does that er Yes. Bu but Chairer it's not a practised little structure... it's a guaranteed performance and what's it committee. They do that with this recommendation. Sorry? The the It's not the practice, the... questions of structure guarantee performance erm... P and Q committee. Er, yes but er... er, I under... stand that this is going to Yes, you've said that I mean to er another panel isn't it? It's going to be... erm In actual fact, Jim is right it's slightly complicated. Service plans... come... with... relevant committees, being this one in this case... but structures and structures strictly speaking, are still the remit of P and Q, so I think it might be a courtesy to let me have a look at the structure... because they are simply right, guardians of the organisation P and Q Yes. As I think Shaun would phrase it. [LAUGHTER] Yes. Erm... but I think it would, really be a courtesy. Certainly the request of staff then could turn into of the panel... erm... but but... I think at the same time if people want to look at the structure so that they have a complete view of the structural organisation Yes? That would be erm that would be a part of it. in Okay? We agree with that? Agree. Agreed! Nobody against that? No. Right! Thank you very much. So that er... finishes er... er, and erm... the page. Now we go on to er... housing er, issues. Er, and this is er... Paul is it not? Yes, thanks Chairer. Yeah. The report on... ! Oh sorry! Sorry! Sorry! There is the second part of the... Oh! But I thought we erm just explained that? to service the service clan... which, I don't think will be controversial but erm... I did just... seat for the first part of report, the little bit about.... Yes. Did you... want to, er well Well I thought that members had... raised Yes, I thought, but then there's, but briefly er... Sue, I was going to... wanted to point out in fact er... you just er... if you don't mind Paul I'll just go back Mm. to... Sue wanted to point out that er... erm... how well your staff had er... worked on er... that what they... had done er er... all over the town i... in some instances er... enabling people to get to their... rights by... you know, taking them to tribunals which is quite er... time er... er... exercise. I, I certainly don't erm... propose to go through the service requirements to approve it but I did say that to start with, I just wanted to clarify that... all the policies have been [speaker002:] [cough] [speaker001:] by the people... and Yes. that I don't.... Yes. Yep! Moving straight up there Mm. Right. Thank you very much. Right er... Paul, we're going over to Yeah, page ninety five, ninety Yes. six... report on Field development. Erm... members will remember at the last... er, personal services committee on the twenty fourth of June... er, the option... to put forward by the Environment Trust and Widdings... er, builders was accepted as the one that er... officers could pursue... and to... actually get some... final proposals worked up... and bring back to both the neighbourhood committee... and this committee. Erm... at that erm... meeting members did er bring up a number of points... er, the comments and questions which have been put to the Environment Trust... and the answers to them... are... there on page ninety five under progress to date... and, and on... onto page ninety six... er, the main ones really... are the question as to whether... er, any... rented housing could be provided... erm, in the scheme... is dealt with there... the Environment Trust only develop for sale... or for equity share... er, they're not a housing association, they're a charitable body... erm... so they didn't feel that they were able to... er, take on the... role of er, provided rented housing in the scheme. Erm... the other main point which was raised by planning... if you remember, was that erm, they wanted... officers to evaluate a two block scheme... er, because they wanted... er, good access to the land... to the rear of Franklyns for... er, perhaps some future development. When this was put to the Environment Trust... erm... they were... er, unaware before that stage that there were... erm... may be proposals of developing that land... and expressed an interest in being involved... if that ever came to fruition. Erm... now we have, as an authority... to negotiate... er, to put that land together... erm... the Scout's hut is on some of that land... at the moment, and we've failed... er, to do that in the past. Where, the environment trust, since our initial meeting have spoken... er, both with Essex County Council... and community groups in the area... and have made substantial progress... erm... on the idea of... er, using some of the land to the rear... of... er, the existing Franklyns block... er, so they... do want to come back with some... wider proposals for a larger scheme... which will... be much the same as regards the Franklyns block... but will include nine... er, additional homes... erm, and they will be two three bed houses... and seven... er, two bedroom houses. Erm... it's... it's quite an interesting... erm... er, addition to the er original proposal but clearly members will need to take a view as to whether... er... they want... erm... the Environment Trust to do that... but erm, er what I would suggest is that we bring back... er, some final proposals from Environment Trust at the next meeting... er, for members to have a look at.... The... er, other recommendation really is just a member's note... the outcome of discussion so far, it has been to the... erm, we did take the paper to the Hare Street, Little Parndon... er, committee... er, in this cycle and there were no comments that came... er, from that committee. Right. I don't remember... maybe I've... got a poor memory but er... I can't remember you mentioning that the erm... area committee but er there was erm... going to be another block... there and that er, the er... this er trust, er Environment Trust had... let one of the Northbrooks er... and consulted with the Northbrook's people? Okay, at that point in time they hadn't actually... er taken Ah! that consultation, they were waiting to meet with the county... er Oh! to. Yeah. Er well erm... I'll be very interested to know whether... er, what sort of consultation with the Northbrook's... er, people that they've had and erm... when er, I recall asking about erm... er, some of these er dwellings being... for rent and erm... I thought that, you said er... i it was a possibility. But then you come and tell us well they're a charitable trust I would of thought that a charitable trust would of been very er, happy to have seen the... some rented accommodation? So er... but er, that's just... maybe a bit Yeah. bit of a. Yes yeah, I, I'm also very disappointed that er... er, in the negotiations that they didn't er... er, come up with any sort of housing... erm... I think the, it's mucking any future negotiations with other partners or developers, speculators whoever they may be, I think it's important that we have, er we strike a balance between bu houses for sale and rented accommodation... because, I mean they need to now the building... er, this house for sale... and each time we we we... we knock down flats or building... and ga gave the land free of charge to the speculators... we have to de-count people, those people are moving th the existing te er people on the waiting list and they're getting moved further and further... back and er... I think i i i it's a very worrying situation where we are continually giving land free of charge and they're getting no rented accommodation. I mean... well if I remember in Harlow... er,we we i i in in nineteen seventy eight... we had twenty thousand er, social er, council housing... and about nine thousand owner occupiers... the situation, that ratio's been reversed where we, where i by the end of the century we practically have about three thousand social social housing and about twenty two thousand er... er, owner occupiers! Erm... but er... I hope you're not going to way that er... Westminster Council has gone, for each er er er, er er th their property into disrepair... they bought it up, do it up and flog it on the open market... when a few yards away there are people no a er now sleeping under bridges and canals! Now I think that's disgusting! And er, we'll be a part, I know as councillors, Labour councillors we are caught in a trap... because due the financial constraint that the government has placed upon us there is very little we could do but, oh I'll get I I er crumbs of comfort from the speculators who may decide to to give us a few social housing. I'm concerned for the people who are waiting for housing, I'm concerned about young people who are living in i i in ten er, on the tenth floor of high rise flats, these people have been waiting a very very long time... and each time er, the er these... they are, the properties are... er, de-counted... they are going further and further behind. So I think any future in and negotiations with the er, there has to be provision for social housing. Well I think that when yo, we're going to get a hundred percent nomination there. Yeah perhaps I could... erm, reply to one or two of those points. Yes, as you pointed out we... have been offered one hundred percent nomination rights... to er, these equity share units... the er, partners which members have shows as... erm... er the Environment Trust are a charitable trust, they're not... they're developers, they're not speculative developers. Erm... the point that they were at pains to make as well was that erm... that because of the low cost nature of these homes... erm... the charge for a mortgage would actually be less than... er, is... is common in a charge for most association properties with similar... sites... erm... in terms of rent. Erm... members may also remember that er... for the schemes that came forward on Franklyns were a result of a... er, an advertisement being placed... three of the schemes put forward... erm, were for sale of equity share, one was put forward which came... er, to the last meeting in this committee... which was a rented scheme... erm, but was for people for members took a view the... erm... the Environment Trust scheme er... would prove a better option... er, in Harlow. Chairperson. Yes erm... Hugh, I want to ask you as erm... the Chairer of the... area er committee erm... if you're happy with Yes I mean, I think... that we had a big discussion at the last area committee on the scheme and the problem was of course that the... detailed plans... er, for the consultation erm to the, I'm at, I'm a bit worried that... at this late stage there's this new idea of of building on the green wedge at the back... and I wouldn't like to think that the scheme should be delayed... the important thing, it seems to me, is that it should... press ahead and... [cough] and, and Northbrooks ever since it was built right next door to me when I was living there... er, many years ago and er... get the, the new development done, and so that I don't think we should hold on. Erm... I'm rather sceptical about the notion of building on that green wedge at the back! It's does smack to me a bit of... in-filling... and er, Northbrooks is quite a dense area already, a ve, a very dense area... erm, and erm I'm I'm, you know, I'd like to see any detailed plans on that before we even... look at one in principle. I don't think we should hold up this one because of it, er... so I would like to see the... more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the area committee... er, so that residents can... comment on this. Yeah, but isn't that going to be incorporated in as one... package? Well I wasn't sure whether Paul was saying it's gonna be held up because of that? No, erm We no, I've I've had a meeting wi with colleagues around the table with the Environment Trust in the last couple of days... and er Yeah. just that issue was raised that we would not want to see demolition of Franklyns... that block held up by this. Mm. We would not want to see the scheme a... held up... or at least, the timetable that we could set down. Right. Erm... the assurance from the Environment Trust is that... i it need not happen... erm, it may not hold things up Mm. erm... providing they could get some planning applications... at the next... er, committee cycle. Mhm. erm, yes this is part of the planning process in any case the... er... the suggestion proposal all being.... Yeah. Okay, thanks Paul. Yes, you wanted to say? It was the thing about... er, my understanding is that people in the area... and it's probably the most densified area... in the whole of the town... are very very cagey about this! I think in general term they will go along with the... erm... the de-furbishment or the destruction of the... er but... my understanding is they are reserving their judgement until they've seen some version of the plan. Mm. but er... any attempt to put anything on at the back... to the extent, right up to the Scout's hut in Beech Hall... will, I think, generate... a lot of feelings about Mm it in in, in the area. Something like, I think we've seen before, so er Mm. Yes. Right, so Yeah can I just Sorry? Oh Annabelle! wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa, thank you. Paul was saying that I mean, they're a hundred percent nomination housing the people who need the housing most are aren't the ones who... who'll be able to er, to use the...... and there's no housing strategy on on er... o o on the equity part,the the there might be, only a tiny bit, on on on the rent side but it doesn't homes fo for the people who... really need it, even if they've got a hundred percent nomination flats! Okay, could I actually say something here? Erm, listening... both to what Anna and Terry are saying here, I think er myself and and the colleagues in housing are very well aware that what this council doesn't have is a pre-developed strategy of social housing. Erm... we've we've actually developed social housing really rather... as it's been an opportunity we've grabbed it and we've done it, you know, some of it's been very very good an and nobody's knocking that but I think it is time that we took stock and actually had a... a proper policy and a proper strategy on sa on social housing. Can I just say to you that that's already been developed and worked out... we're intending in the next cycle to bring you proposals for a housing strategy, er on social housing, and within that we're intending to run a series of short seminars for members to give members, all members, not just members of this committee but members of all area committees until everybody has that information... background information on things like, social housing, partnerships, housing association grant so that everybody's in a position to actually er, see and make a decision on what this council wants out of social housing, but all of that will take place in the next cycle Chair. Mm. So that I think the sort of questions that are being raised here will be addressed and will be able to be put within that complex, that overall strategy which I think now is sort of pretend, it doesn't exist at the moment. And I think it is important so that decisions like this can be made within a... er, a framework that we've all, you know, been part of, and na are happy with agreed to. Though I think that that will be happening in the next cycle. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's very helpful. So could we get back to the recommendations. Agreed, the recommendations? Agreed. Thank you. Next er, item is er... on er... the consultation paper on the gypsy site policy... and illegal camping. Thank you Chairer. Erm... It's on page ninety nine. Yes, page ninety nine of this er, thank you Chairer. The er... consultation and on the eighteen of August erm... was circulated to many members on the fifth of the September, a thirteen page document... erm, it was true to say that the er... consultation paper... contained some fairly radical proposals for... changes in dealing with er... gypsies and travellers. Give them! Erm... amongst other things erm... ceasing the responsibility of local authorities to provide sites... erm... have the new powers to move er... illegal or unauthorised erm... on, from... the land including... er, season caravans in certain instances... erm... the curtailment by the government of er, grants for local authorities to provide and construct sites having... spent fifty six million pounds... erm... doing just that since nineteen seventy eight according to the report. Er, various changes in... planning proposals... erm, and indeed... erm... encouraging travellers who are perhaps no long travellers, those who are resident on the sites to move progressively into government housing. Er, a particular concern at the time of writing the report was the position concerning the long outstanding proposals to develop... to redevelop the two sites in Harlow... erm... to date we have no information from the county, er, there was scheduled to be... erm, the... meeting... due to take place on the twenty second of September... but the county er... cancelled that meeting so it's impossible at this stage to... give any further comment on that... erm... although I believe that matter's being taken up. Er... comments are required in to the by the thirteenth of November... er, and the Associations of District Councils have asked us to comment indeed by next week... er, so member's views on the consultation paper are. Chairer? Well, er... I've got quite a few comments but I'll ask [cough] first, Bill? The Yes, but... On the last comment that er... Chris made er... bringing us and the letter to county about the... the failure of the meeting on the twenty second... cos we feel that they are just lying down... to the situation and not pursuing a... pursuing the D A P about... whatsoever... and erm... we are, certainly in John's letter... probably get it signed tonight... complaining and asking for a... a meeting as soon as possible because... we feel that that they ought to be pursuing... the question of these two sites, they're dragging their feet! On the question of the government's proposals... I'm entirely opposed to the er... the idea that they should wash their hands of their... er, obligations er, the nineteen sixty eight act... as as... a number of members know... er, gave it as they are... the duty of a local authority to acquire some sites for gypsies... some local authorities er, obeyed that and er... they actually provide the sites, like Harlow, other authorities just ignored it! Completely ignored it! So if they, if they removed the local authorities judging... we'll be in a terrible position! An absolutely diabolical situation because... then the the... the local authorities that have continued to avoid doing what they ought to have done will... be rubbing their hands with glee... while the others who have a... a social conscience, a moral social conscience will be put under tremendous pressure! So, we must oppose that... and er... also they're asking for new powers... er... to move illegal travellers from land... this is just another device... because of their failure to provide sufficient sites throughout the country... and if the of Essex County Council do their job... er... they they don't need these new powers, what authority... ought to be ha, er having... are powers to provide some... er, camping places for people. And er... the question of the grants as well, I'm opposed to... the fact that they... they're going to... if we don't hurry up... er, these two sites in Harlow will not, never be completed! If they stop the altogether we have to act very quickly. So I'm against all their proposals, I think they're... an absolute disaster! Chairer? Thank you Bill. Er Could I just ask a question? Yes. Could you tell er... could... I mean, have you got any information about the grant here? Er, because... er... our submission for a grant... regarding these two sites were submitted prior to all this coming forth Yes. so therefore, it must be granted. Now, will,tha I had hoped that we'd have an information... that we'd have information at this meeting, it's the thirtieth now! Mm. Right? And I had hoped we'd... get the information, have we got any information on that? Well, it's a hundred percent grant that the D of E gives to er... the er county council, so then it's... really it's transferred to us isn't it? Except the payment of... er, the erm... th the manager of the sites... or the warden of the sites. But Chairer I have spoken to officers at county... in the last few days to Mm. try and get some information on this... they felt that they were confident that at the end of the day... that erm, approval would be given... but erm... I I I asked for it in writing and they said we wouldn't be getting that. Oh! Well [LAUGHTER] We would be getting it? Ah we wouldn't, you wouldn't. We wouldn't be getting it. [LAUGHTER] Well... I ca, I'll ask a question then so that will have to be... answered. But, in reply to er... Terry when... yes, of course, we should get it if it was prior to their new act [cough] er but er the there's no morality with this government I'm afraid Terry, as you and I well know! Lorna? Right, thanks Chairer. I've already put in our comments in writing on this to... to Chris and I'll just... sort of draw some of them save me repeating them. Erm... certainly, as a group we... we welcome the fact that there is a provision for... travellers in Harlow on the two permanent sites and we also welcome the upgrading er, of the to... to happen, although I very much hope it doesn't. Erm... I'll go through the... consultation paper and pick out sort of paragraph by paragraph... and any that we particular agree or disagree with. Er, certainly in, in the first paragraph we would say that we have drawn attention over the years... to the nuisance of illegal parking... erm, by travellers particularly in Stewards... erm... while travellers have the right to live their own lifestyle we also believe that other residents have the right to live... free from that kind of nuisance and problem and that it does need to be addressed somehow. However, this definitely isn't the way to do it! Erm... we will continue to say that Harlow should have applied for designation years ago... erm... it's very Sorry can you repeat that? Harlow should of applied for a designation a long time ago... if Harlow had been designated... then... surrounding councils would have had to live up their responsibilities to provide adequate sites for travellers which they have not done... and successive governments have also failed to apply the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight adequately. If they'd done so, if they'd insisted that local authorities did provide the sites they are supposed to provide... I believe there would now be sufficient pitches for all travellers... and that they wouldn't be used for illegal parking... erm... at the level that there is at the moment. Er, on paragraph nine the government's own figures show that there is a... shortfall of glee... while the others who have a... a social conscience, a and that they've mixed, the site provision isn't keeping pace with the growth of the number of caravans... and yet, what it's proposing to do in this paper will... make the situation worse by removing any incentive... erm... and any requirement on local authorities actually to provide the sites that are needed to make up that shortfall... and it's quite clear that what this is about is actually what it... is happening in housing in general and that is shifting provision from the pri, from the public to the private sector. Erm... there's also a very strange statement in paragraph which says that the nineteen sixty eight act is intended to provide a network of sites to enable gypsies to move around or settle, but in practice many gypsies are settled on permanent sites... and it seems to me that that is the logical result of having insufficient pitches in that if th you know there aren't enough pitches for you, you are not going to get up and go from a permanent that you've been living on and move off in case you can't one somewhere else and that seems to be the inevitable... logic of the government's own failure to make sure that there is adequate provisions in local sites. Erm... the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight... er, paragraph fifteen did actually, I think address the provision government sites quite well, or it would have if it had actually been properly implemented in that there was... a carrot and stick, there was stick or requirement [cough] for a site and the carrot is actually being able to apply to designation... whether you lived up to that. Now... it seems... that successive governments have... just haven't lived up to their obligation to wield the stick, and Harlow council just haven't had the sense to reach for the carrot in that... that local people are caught in the middle! Erm... on paragraph twenty... erm... the government's proposals will penalise all the camping which takes place outside recognised sites while at the same time... I've already said, removing any incentive or obligation for local authorities to provide enough sites anyway so... i it's, it's a a total squeeze that on the one hand the government is restricting the number of pitches and then penalising everybody who hasn't got one! Erm... paragraph twenty one, we'd certainly oppose any move to give local authorities the right to cease homes of travellers... erm... especially in view of the shortage of the good pitches I... that is just totally and I don't think that that's on, I hope we can oppose that. Erm... I don't think the... on paragraph twenty three and consequently the suggestion that that kind of permission really are realistic at all, erm... I think this government is totally obsessed with owner occupation at the expense of all kinds of housing, whether it's permanent, rented or... or anything else! Erm... and this seems to be the whole kind of class of which the government is coming to this... this document. I

[speaker001:] Morning. Morning. Morning Sir. There are some licensing applications George. Is there? Application er... question number fifty three please your honour please. Send that to all at the Crosskeys... at, the Chester your worships. So that at all? I am. Licensee of the Crosskeys at the Chester. That's right, yeah. And you're making applications for an occasional license... for Saturday the twenty ninth of October... to run the bar at Nell Gwyn... village hall... on behalf of the... the village hall committee is that right? No, that's the way it is, yes. The hours you're asking for is seven thirty pm to eleven forty five pm? That's right. I think you did send this is... intending it to be a postal application... Mr? I did, yes. But er, your worships to do it by your colleagues until today... because er... Mr... indicate on the... application form... that er... he will not be... in fact, operating the bar himself but it would be somebody else. In fact they, your colleagues wanted more information about Yeah that's a Who will be operating bar Mr? Well... I'm I'm on er Mr Martin. Actually I did... operations between the village hall and the Crosskeys and Mr Martin is on the... pub for the last sixteen years you see. Well that concerns this this gentleman to extend the licensing. Oh yes sir, definitely. I'll I'll be going to the village hall... but I me I have to The Crosskeys that's why I put Martin, perhaps I've put the wrong thing on you see. I'll be in charge of the bar actually. So physically you will be exercising something degree of supervision in the Oh that, yes! Will you be there when it's time to close Mr? I will, yes. You see there... in particular to young people. You are aware of that? Oh yes, that, that's why! Then this application be granted. Right, thank you very much. Thank you. Er Thank you, thank you very much. Application number fifty four your worships, the... a temporary authority in respect of Quick Save Supermarket. . Jacqueline is the applicant your worship.... Are you representing? Right. Could you take the oath please? Hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card. I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give is... shall be truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Okay. Now full name and address could you? Jacqueline,. And er, what is your date of birth? Thirteenth of the twelfth, sixty four. [cough] And you're making application for temporary authority to... operate the licensed [cough] premises... known as Quick Save Supermarket That's right. at er Station Road, Wetherall is that right? That's right, yes. Is the outgoing licensee present? Pardon? Is the outgoing licensee present? No. Why? Don't know. Not had a You don't know? Well, somebody's handed these documents in, have these come with you today? Yeah. The present license holder is Susan. That's right. Right. Sir, there is a letter simply saying er... she consents to the... er, application, but there's no indication to why she's not here. Is that lady now at that Qui... Quick Save? Yes. She's at work for the company too? Well What's your normal there? Supervisor. In this depot in Wetherall That's right. Are you there permanently? All Yeah. day every day? Yes. The premises? Yes. What er, experience have you got in er... the sale of intoxicating liquors... Miss? Well I worked... for the past two year really Where, at the? I used to work in Oldham and then then I come over here. [whispering] []. So how long have you been at these particular premises? Er... about a month ago. Mr... Mr. [whispering] [] [cough] Well no she says, she said er... she said [cough] it is responsibility. Cos she's just given up her... her er any... er,... possibly?...... And er... Miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this license? Yeah. Has an application been submitted... for that purpose? Yes. To the, which transfer Oh!... Er to er I'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway your worship! Do you see what I mean, see most of this has been done for the convenience of the Quick Save Supermarkets... on that er, I should say. Mm. Well, practical purposes at this stage sir she maintains insufficient... I've no doubt the licensee will want to know a lot more about... the situation, it's very apparent... it's not long ago that they last ta transferred... to their present holding. You are aware Miss that any persons working in that... department have got to be of age? Yes. Can you undertake that that will apply? Yes. And you aware of the restrictions on drink for young people? Yeah. And the sort of concern about that? Yes. And we're going [cough] to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep the premises open... and I must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted... that the transfer is specialist. And we're ordering that the other person, if possible, attends at that. [cough] If she's not in the district then it'll be difficult. And if it is possible, if she is in the district we order that she attends the transfer sessions... the outgoing licensee. Fifty eight. Have you got the license er... Miss? No it's.... Well, but it will not be effective until er, you have produced that license to this court. Erm, I assume it... that this er, if the licensee has left those premises... wi... she's physically left has she there? Yeah. Er, when did she go? About a month ago now.... She left the company then did Mm. she? I see, well I would of expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquor sir, they've obviously not had a license for a month! That will also be er... considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing!... You must produce that license otherwise it's not effective er, Miss!... See, as licensee you have responsibilities! It's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do... it's yo, you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws! Your whole application's not been very satisfactory Miss!... And the fact that the license is not in... puts you in in in difficulty! We are aware now that you're operating without a license and it's up to you to get that license here as quickly as possible! Right.... Okay. ... To do with application as number forty four your worships, please. It's in respect of erm... temporary authority... for the your worship. Your worship please... I'd like to make to application on behalf of Mr... for a protection order in respect of Vigitalle Er, Mr... Mr, Mr. Your full name is James? Yes sir. And you have resided for the last six months at the and at er...? Yes. And are you this morning applying for a protection in respect of the Vigitalle Yes. Er, would you, would you... tell the, your worships what experience you've had in the licensed trade. Er, yes sir my current position... er, at the moment I'm at the licensed house trainee manager for... Boddingtons Brewery and I've held that position for... five and half years. Er... previously I've had, held... the license of Three Fishes at Lyddon... er, for three years... er, previous to that I held the license of the Mason's Arms, with... for three years previous to that... and before I've been connected with the... catering and licensed trade... from be fifteen. And you're there for quali qualified rather than just the licensed trade would that be? I hope so, yes sir. And are you applying to, but,ar are you proposing to apply... for the permanent transfer of this license? Yes sir. Thank you. Er, Mrs please. Mrs, your full is Margaret? Yes. And are you the current licensee? I am, yes. And do you support the consentants application this morning? I do, yes. That is the application your worship. Thank you. A protection order be granted? Your worship please. Right....... Er, application [whispering] []. Yes, [cough] [whispering] []? Yes. But But er [speaker002:] [whispering] []. [speaker001:] Excuse the long. [speaker002:] [whispering] [] [speaker001:] Page fifty seven please your worship, Robert James, he is in the cells your worship sorry! So it will take a moment for him to be bought up. There are apparently further charges to be put to him your worship... the charge of theft... and we charge him with handling stolen property. He's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment. Right..... Fifty five sir, fifty six. Are you Robert James? Yes sir. And what is your home address Mr? . Is your date of birth the fourth of September nineteen fifty four? That's correct. Are represented by a solicitor today? Should be. Was it Mr? I have given the... you have all the documents in front of you. Well... I think Mr got represented on a previous occasion that's why I'm asking you that! Well I don't know sir. My solicitor's in Birmingham! My, my records sir that Mr was the duty solicitor on that day. Oh!... I think he's represented you on more than one occasion. But don't he know that his solicitor's gotta be here for the today? I haven't a clue what's happening!... I didn't know, I mean I could of spoken to. Well you're the defendant, one would of thought yo yo yo know what'll happen to you! I haven't. As, as far as I know I have a committal today. That's right. But I would of thought that your solicitor was... to be here... to represent you. As far as I'm aware my solicitor... has been in contact with Burnley prosecution to have the case... transferred to Birmingham Crown Court. Well... he has been a bit if you tried there. Did you recognise... the chap? I'm afraid sir, I have... no knowledge, I haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody... with regard to that, I would of thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed... to Preston Crown Court and for the Crown Courts thereafter... to sort out the final venue. I certainly have no knowledge of... of any contact... with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file. Your worships, legal aid was granted er... on the thirteenth of September to affirm... of burglary. Well obviously they're not here your worship. Well all I can suggest is the case is... adjourned for the week we'll just have to arrange a solicitor to be here. I wish for the committal to go along please sir? I've been stuck up in this place In that case of the day sir because the statements have to read out in full. He doesn't want to be represented is that what you're saying? What I'm saying sir is to save the inconvenience to the court... is that if I could have my committal... cos I don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country!... I have a Crown Court appearance in Birmingham... and as far as I'm aware my solicitors... have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure... and as far as I'm aware... the committal this morning was to be committed to Birmingham Crown Court with other offenses. Well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows nothing, she Well I don't, I wouldn't have said I don't know sir. Oh! I mean, that case then can I take my... my committal to Preston Crown Court, and when I go to Birmingham If you're committed to trial in this court you will be committed to Preston. Well I'll take it If now then sir. if it is to be arranged... and that you're dealt with at another court... Crown Court will have to arrange that. Well in that case sir can you... get the committee then please? As of now. As I say sir we put this matter down till later in the day, the defendant wi will not appear to be represented therefore the committal will have to be... dealt with by re reading out all the statements. It can't be done... simply! Then we'll probably put this case back till later in the day. Do you see that Mr? Because you're not represented Well I don't know what the situation is! Well I'm te, that's what I'm trying to tell you! You'll have to. But because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out! Which will er... take quite some time and er will and certainly will if you're reading to the court which was something you were concerned about. I'm not.... I don't know whether you can help that man with that. Because Mr has represented him, Mr said before that he he thought it was as duty solicitor... that he, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor... but, he is represented under legal aid though this defendant... by a firm of solicitors in Birmingham... and he's anxious to be committed for trial... today. If he was represented we could do it er, on the section six two. Otherwise Are there any solicitors present today? Not at present, but he doesn't know. Oh I see. He's given certain information to the court which... isn't correct anyway! Have a word with him. It might help everybody concerned if you could have a word with. Yes. We'll have a word with. Could you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six your worship? Shaun David, Mr represents him. Are you Shaun David? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr? Twenty fourth of the seventh sixty seven. What is your address... Mr? . Well you're charged with two offenses, the first of which is that at Clitheroe... on the twenty sixth of August nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse... you damaged two stained glass windows... a picture frame glass and twelve glasses of varying descriptions... belonging to Whitbread Breweries... intending to damage that property and the being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged... contrary to section one of the criminal damage act in nineteen seventy one. I understand this value, value has been mentioned on a previous occasion, I think three hundred and ninety five pounds? Yes it is. Yeah.... To that charge Shaun David do you plead guilty or not guilty? Worships if I may interrupt the the this erm dispute about the... damage... which was... allegedly caused... I have mentioned it to Miss this morning and she has... undertaken to make further enquiries. Erm... briefly, the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels... and Mr denies that he broke... the second of the two, the one at the front door he says was broken... at some time earlier... on the evening on which he was involved. Unfortunately Miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries... er, to... apportion the damage... and to take instructions as to the... the residue of what I've just said. It is suggested er, by both myself and er... my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week. Well it, it was adjourned last week for him to... with instructions your worship. Yes we we've adjourned this case for one week... other enquiries can be made. So he doesn't have to, on conditional bail today? Well bail will be extended for one week. Well you know what that means Mr, you were told... this last week you will be to surrender yourself to bail... next Tuesday at er. Hopefully the matter will proceed next week. Can we go your worships? Yes, you can leave the court. Case number one your worships please... Peter John.... Are you Peter John? That's right. What's your date of birth? Nineteen of the first sixty three. What's your home address Mr? . You are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the road traffic act in nineteen seventy two... in Wallby on the ninth of September... drove a motor vehicle... on... the A six seven one... Wallby by pass... having consumed alcohol... in such a quantity that the proportion of it, in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit. Do you understand? Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Have you got your driving license with you Mr? I haven't got it actually, no. Why? Because, well I told the police at the time... that er... I've misplaced it... and er... my is. What are you doing about getting er, a replacement? Well I haven't done anything at the moment because I di... I didn't think it was worth it actually. Well, it says on the bottom of the, your copy of the charge sheet, production of driving license... you must produce it, failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended... and it also means you've committed yet another offence... by not having... a driving licence here to produce Mr! Well I wa... I wasn't sure... whether to, whether it would go through in time for the case... and that's why I haven't What's stopping you? send off for it. I wasn't sure what the situation was. Unless... the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having... a computer printout of your driving... er le, holding your licence record... the case won't be able to proceed today anyway. And your worship, regrettably there is no printout of the driving licence. Well the case can't go ahead today without... your driving licence. Sorry? The case cannot go ahead without your driving licence. How many weeks do you want to? Your worship, I would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout... for the computer to be able to And this case is adjourned for three weeks in order that a computer printout will... can be obtained. Does that mean I don't have to apply for another licence? No, but er ee i, I suggest you don't apply for the licence now. No, you've left it too late!... But er... I would urge you to try to find your driving licence... because No, I I I don't think I'll be able to because. Right, well... you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted. Yes. What, the offence... the... drink driving offence? Yes. Yeah. Do you understand? I realise that. You've pleaded guilty to the charge anyhow, it's a fair cop!... The point is that when you are disqualified you're... not just disqualified from driving you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence. So if you've got one at home... you're committing an offence... by being in possession of it. Do you understand?... Do you understand that? Yeah. Right. Do I No... when you're disqualified. But don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime. Yeah okay alright. But er... you'll be in a far... safer position... if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of October. Right. Can I go sir? Yes, you can leave the court room. Er, so yours is better Mrs. Er number twenty one sir, the January. Sorry... twenty one? Yes sir. your worships, John Graham please, twenty one. Now, are you John Graham? John Geoffrey. John? Geoffrey. Thank you.... With a G? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr? Twenty ninth of the eleventh sixty nine. What's your home address? You're stood up for a number of offenses, the first of which... is that on the twenty first of June nineteen eighty eight... you, on the public road way in Accrington Road Worley... used the mechanics of the vehicle when there was an excise licence in force, it's an offence of the vehicles excise act in nineteen seventy one. Do you understand? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you... be the driver of the motor car having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to the police officer, failed to do so. To that, do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks... a contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the road traffic act... to that are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also, that on the twenty first of June you've used the motor vehicle... at Worley on Accrington Road when there was no test certificate in force. Are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also, that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. And, finally that you failed to produce a test certificate. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Has he produced these documents to you Miss? No sir. Have you got the insurance with you? Yes. The test certificate with you? Everything my solicitor was outside. What? I give them to that solicitor that, I were talking to. Which duty solicitor? His duty solicitor's Oh! Mr. . ... likely to receive custodial sentences.... in this instance.... I can't see any harm.... Would you like me to show the the prosecuting solicitor? Well perhaps it'll save time. [whispering] []. Mm?... Knowing business effects it. No... take them off. Yes, may please your worships I am satisfied that those documents... to cover the... defendant for the date in question... and will therefore offer no evidence... in relation to the protest to these premises... but to dismiss them. Could I ask sir Yes, stand up Mr we listening to those three charges... and maybe you'll no test certificate in those two.... Er Now unless there's a prosecution we have the facts for the other offenses I understand. Yeah so please your worships it was the twenty first of June in the morning when the police officer was on duty... on the Aces... Accrington at Worley... he had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by Mr... and he noticed that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact, expired at the end of March. Mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own and he was therefore given an H R T one to produce those documents... but you will appreciate from the matters that he's pleaded... pleaded guilty to this morning... he in fact, failed to produce... his insurance... driving licence... and test certificate within the required period. Your worships, those are the brief facts, I would ask you consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence... at being called a month of... May. I think you'll find He says. I would like them both to go back from the month of June. I know. I'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds. [whispering] []. He could have the li... you can have your licence back offenses to endorse it with. Yeah... and er... [whispering] []. You're able to help him anyway. Yes, I wonder if I may Can I just say before we start but... er... why that he doesn't call... June... and his licence for seven months. Sir, I apologise, I was... going by this figure made by which indicated... that it expired on the thirty first of March, I think and in fact, that is a... an error on the officer's part... it would appear... from... the licensing authorities... in fact, it expired at the end of May. Yeah. Yeah. . Your worships er, these offenses arrived out of er... what was, initially a road... traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of June... er, when... er, Mr 's vehicle came into collision with... er, a vehicle that was... erm... stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right. No... er allegations of erm... concerning the... correct, his driving... er, are made by the pro prosecution... er... as a result of the incident but... er, as a result of the... officer's enquiries... er, it came to light that Mr... was... er, in breach of some of the... er, other regulations regarding road uses and... so the summonses which are to deal with this morning have er... have been issued against him. Erm, and you will... be aware that... at two of... er, three of the er... summonses that are now left here to de deal with, that's three of the four... er, do in fact, relate to clearly produce the documents. Er, failure to produce his driving licence... failure to produce... a... test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance documents... and what Mr says... in respect of er, those three offenses is that... er, the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station... but he says that... he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident... and er... he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time... and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before... er, he had never... er no, known that that was a procedure that had to be followed... and in the circumstances... he didn't pay any attention to the print on the H R T... er, one form that was issued to him and he... didn't produce the documents. It was completely ignorance on his part... in that respect. Er your worships, the one remaining summonses, the one relating to the fact that his vehicle... er, wasn't taxed at the time of the accident... and, I think er... he he will be aware his tax... er, did run out at the end of May... and this accident happened on the twenty first of June. I've asked him about that and what he said is that... er, he was saving up and he was going tax the vehicle as soon he... was able to do so... but he didn't have the funds and... er, to do so at, at that time. Erm... he is obviously aware that er... by not having the vehicle taxed... it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er... taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time. Your worships, Mr works for Wallbank aerials in Worley... and he works for them as an engineer... his vehicle was... erm... something that he did use for work, but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to... er, replace it and so he's having to be erm... er, chauffeured by... the company to do his er... his work. Erm... he... was using at that time an R registered Ford Escort... er, which was er, only insured third party, fire and theft. He receives for his employment a take home pay of... seventy three pounds per week, he lives with his parents... and pays a board of twenty pounds per week... he's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening... and... at lunchtime on Saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty. He hasn't any other commitments and he would ask... that... erm... he be allowed to pay the fine at the rate of twenty pounds per week. Your worships, those are the circumstances I would ask you to bear in mind that... this man... a ha, has four summonses against him purely as a result of... really ignorance as far as purchasing documents is concerned... they were in order... and... erm... he would of produced them had he... realised what the officer was saying to him and... er, that he would of... realised had he not been suffering the shock, but he was actually sufferance... suffering at the er... at the time of the accident. I don't think your worships. Well Mr... er... pleading guilty to these offenses... and we've listened to what... the solicitor has said on your behalf... the main offence... of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds... and be willing to pay eighty pounds thirty three back duty... and ten pounds costs... and for the offenses of failing to produce you'll be fined ten pounds for each of those three offenses.... We will order the fines and costs to be paid at a rate of twenty pounds a week. So... I make that a hundred and thirteen... a hundred and twenty three pounds, and the costs are... thirty three pence? Erm... a hundred twenty six... thirty three. Sorry, you're right! One, two, three ... a sa hundred and eight One two, three three three sir. So do, you understand that er... Mr? Yes. You pay out twenty pounds a week the officer of the court is agreed and the address will be given to you by the court usher before you leave... it is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week, the first payment is due by next Tuesday. Erm... I'm off sick at the moment... from work so so... I won't be able to pay the first payment cos, you know... ain't got no money. Don't you get any... sick payment or Well erm, I've just come up... and... and the accident so... I'm only entitled to money for the first four days. I see. And when you are likely to be earning again? Erm... perhaps anywhere next week. Well I do think give fourteen days for the first payment sir. Yes. You have you fourteen days the first payment... will be twenty pounds a week thereafter. So by... a fortnight today... there's gotta be a payment in? Yes. . Alright. May we go sir? Yes, you can leave the court now. Thank you. Back to case thirty one. Miss apparently you represent Mr... er well I... I notice from the documents with the er... summons it was adjourned... because erm... their solicitor wrote to say that he will be claiming not guilty? Oh yes. Is that the case? Yeah, your worships I understand that the... the prosecution are... are making application... I don't that you should go on with this. So is it? If if it's not going to trial When they were we'll do it now we'll take it now. I wonder if I can insist, it isn't a matter where... and they have spoken to me about this... particular case... and Go to forty five your worship. Sorry, I forgot the The view of the prosecution that this is matter... could be dealt with... quite satisfactorily by the way of in the court... were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action. I understand that Mr would be... willing to be bound over. Does that compare with that? Well obviously Miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds... why they should bind him over... they will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future... otherwise they will not bind him over. I appreciate that sir, but you may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear... conducts from the case and if he is still present obviously... whatever the court wishes to do. I see, well in that case then I will leave it alone, I'll deal with this a little bit later on, obviously... it could take As you want. possibly. Who else is present Mrs? Er... number forty one sir,. Do deal with that your worships... please? Forty one. Are you Sylvia? Yes. What is your date of birth please? Ha? What is your date of birth please? Er twenty ninth. And ... Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Yeah, er guilty. Right. And you're also summoned that on that same occasion you... not having given your name and address to any person requiring it at the time, you failed to report the accident at a police station, or to a constable as soon as reasonably practicable and in any case within twenty four hours of it happening... again, that's an offence under section twenty five of the road traffic act... to that effect do you plead guilty or not guilty? Yeah. You're pleading guilty? Yeah. And finally, that at Worley on the twenty fifth of July nineteen eighty eighty, you being the driver of a motor car... you failed to afford precedence to a foot passenger on the carriageway within the limits of uncontrolled zebra crossing on King Street... that's an offence under the pedestrian crossing regulations... and the road traffic regulation act of ninety eighty four... to that... do you plead guilty or not Yes. guilty? Yes, guilty. Right, now listen carefully to the prosecution. Do you have difficulty hearing? Yes, I'm aware that be needed. Alright, well perhaps... lu... turn, turn that way... listen to lady speaking here. Just stand as close to her as you like... as long as you can hear what's she's saying that's the important thing. your worships Mrs appears before the court today as a result of an accident which occurred on the twenty fifth of July at about four thirty in the afternoon... it was on King Street at Worley... and... there was only her vehicle involved... and a young girl who was using the pedestrian crossing. Apparently at this particular time... there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road in question... and... traffic from one direction had halted... in order to allow that the young girl and her friend to cross the road... they began to cross on the zebra crossing... but, as she reached the centre of the road... Mrs was driving her vehicle in the opposite direction and she failed to stop... the young girl, in her teens, was unable to... take, avoiding acci... action... and she was knocked down as she crossed the road. Apparently she then... picked herself up and in fact... ran from the scene... but... Mrs didn't stop and didn't make... enquiries as to who the girl was... and neither was the matter reported by her to the police in due course. However, the whole incident was witnessed by another driver who took a note of the car number and in turn, of course, reported it to the police and eventually Mrs was interviewed on the eleventh of August of this year... she agreed that she was the driver at the time... and she replied... it's okay, but if the little had stopped after the accident... I would of sorted things out... I couldn't do anything after she ran off. And that it says, the brief facts, I would ask to consider cost of ten pound. Alright then, yeah. You heard? Ya, you did alright. Mr was going to speak for you now. Yes, your worships I wonder if I may assist the court o... on behalf of er... M Mrs... erm... Mrs... er... has told me that she thought at the time of the incident again was in fact, nearer to five o'clock than... than, than four thirty... and... she was... driving... from Billington... towards Clitheroe... she had come through the traffic lights at the bottom of Accrington Road in Worley and she was proceeding along King Street... in Worley er, towards... towards Clitheroe... and sh she has told me that at the time there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road and yo... i in fact had that confirmed to you by... er, my friend... er the... the traffic was... sufficiently heavy that in fact, the the traffic travelling in the direction of Blackburn... er was wai... was backed up to the traffic lights as far as the zebra crossing and beyond it... and so... as Mrs... erm was travelling towards Clitheroe her view of the children on the footpath at the... opposite side of the road was obstructed by the cars that were... er, travelling towards Blackburn. And so... erm, it wasn't as though these children ran across an open zebra crossing and she could see the children travelling... er, walking or running all the way across the er... er er er the... pedestrian crossing... the two children one was... estimated by her to be about six years old, and the one who was actually knocked down was estimated by her to be about... er, nine years old... and... she wasn't travelling at any significant speed at all, she was travelling slowly because of the amount of traffic... and she says that er... the first she saw them was... erm, appearing from... the... behind a car and dashing across the front of her car, and in fact, it was only the the... the... one who ran first the... the older of the two children that she actually hit, she hit hit her with the... near side front of er... of her vehicle. She... hit her and at the same time as she hit her she virtually came to a... er, a stop... because of the fact she wa she started to brake as soon as she saw the... the children appear... er, but... ne never the less contact was made but... thankfully for her and for the child the the contact was a a at no significant speed, the child was just knocked off her feet... and... she got up... and... waved to Mrs and said I'm alright and she ran off... and she was away before Mrs had time, even to undo her safety belt to get out of the car. She accepts that she then... was confused, she didn't know what to do... erm... she didn't think there was any point in getting out of the car which is what sh she should of done, she should of... tried to make some enquiries about the child... er, but she... er, she looked around shrugged her shoulders and... and then carried on her journey because she didn't think there was anything else... she could do about it. And then again, ignorance... er, at what she should subsequently have done... er, then took over because she didn't realise that by having had... er... made contact with an individual... erm... it was necessary for her to report the matter to the police and she just... didn't realise that that was something... that she should have done. Your worships, er, there's nothing at all more sinister in the failure to stop and failure to report than... than that,i th that is a a... true record of the er... er er of the... incident as far as Mrs was concerned... erm... and it is something which... erm... comes about... an accident which came about... probably through the inexperience of the children... er, running across the pedestrian crossing thinking that they have priority... erm... and not having regard to other road users... er, and Mrs... was travelling at slow speed but it was... she was put in a difficult position by the... the way in which the children ran across the road. Erm... your worships as far as the personal circumstances are concerned... she is fifty nine years old, she hasn't worked for the last three years she's in receipt of invalidity benefit... similarly her husband who hasn't worked for the last ten or eleven years... er, is on invalidity benefit. Erm... she... would ask that and fine that impose today... er, could be paid by her... at the rate of five pounds... per week... erm, she... er... runs a car... her... invalidity income... amounts to forty six pounds fifteen pence per week... and she also receives... a super annuation payment from her former employers Goldeson's Hospital at the rate of a hundred and three pounds per month... but she and her husband... do have to er... to run the home and er, and run the house... er, run run the car... and she would ask that... she'll be allowed to pay at the rate of five pound per week. Yep.. sit down and watch Mrs. Oh thank you. Sit down there. Well Mrs you're pleading guilty for these offenses... and we've listened to what Mr has said on your behalf... and we're going to be as lenient as we can in the circumstances. For the offence of failing to stop you'll be fined fifty pounds, you're licence will be endorsed with five penalty points. For failing to report you'll be fined twenty pounds and your licence will be endorsed... and for failing afford precedence on... the pedestrian on a zebra crossing you'll be fined ten pounds. You will also be required to pay... ten pounds costs. That's ninety pounds... and we will... order it be paid at a rate of five pounds a week. So Mrs the court will endorse your licence that means that the fact that you have these offenses er... against your record now... will be entered onto on your driving licence by the court, the court will then send your driving licence to the driving licence centre at Swansea... so that they can er... also record on your driving record. You'll get your licence back in about three weeks time from the driving licence centre. You must start paying five pounds a week... by next Tuesday... the court usher will give you the address... of the court... but you must make you send that money every week. Yes. Alright? Right. You can go now Mrs. Thank you. Take care of it. Mrs? Mr sir. Is that all? Yes. Oh fine. Would you deal with an additional matter please your worships... er, not on your list he's only been brought in... almost at the start of the court of this morning. Carl Robert. Is he outside or is in he cells? He's in the cell sir. I think he'll be m

[speaker001:] Morning. [speaker002:] Morning.... [speaker001:] There are some licensing applications Your Worships.... Application that, listed as number fifty three please Your Worships.... Mr of the Cross Keys.... At Ribchester Your Worships.... Mr at all? Licensee of the Cross Keys Ribchester. And you're making applications for an occasion licence... for Saturday the twenty ninth of October... to run a bar at Norbury village hall... on behalf of the... the village hall committee, is that right? That's right Your Worships, yes. And the hours you're asking for are seven thirty P M to eleven forty five P M? That's right. I think you did send this in... intending it to be a postal application... Mr? I did yes. But er Your Worships the matter was adjourned by your colleagues until today because er... Mr did... indicate on the application form that er he would not be... in fact operating the bar himself but that it would be somebody else. So I think your colleagues wanted more information about that so Yes. Who will be operating the bar Mr? Well I... erm er er Mr Roger. Actually I'll be... operating between the village hall and the Cross Keys and Mr Roger has the pub for the last sixteen years or so. Well our concern is does this gentleman understand the licensing laws? Oh yes. Definitely.... I'll, I'll be going to the village hall but I might have to go back to the Cross Keys, that's why I put Roger, perhaps I put the wrong thing on you see? I'll be in charge of the bar actually.... So physically you will be exercising some degree of supervision during the evening will you? Oh yes, yes. Will you be there er when it's time to close Mr? I will yes.... Oh yes definitely, that's right Your Worship yeah.... Then this application be granted. Ah thank you very much.... Right thank you. Thank you very much.... The application that's before Your Worships is a... a temporary authority in respect of Kwiksave Supermarket. Jacqueline is the applicant Your Worship.... Are you represented by a solicitor? Alright so... Could you take the oath please. Hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card.... [reading] I swear to almighty god that the evidence I shall give in this court shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth []. Yeah. And tell the magistrates your full name and address could you? Jacqueline... And what is your date of birth Thirteenth of [cough] sixty four.... And you're making the application for temporary authority to... operate the licence in respect of premises... known as Kwiksave Supermarket? That's right. At er is that right? That's right yes.... Is the outgoing licensee present? Pardon? Is the outgoing licensee present? No. Why?... I don't know. You don't know? Well somebody's handed these documents [cough] today. Yeah.... And the present licence holder is Susan. That's right. But... sir there is a letter simply saying er she consents to the... er application but there's no indication as to why she's not here.... Is that lady down there from... Kwiksave? Yes. She doesn't work for the company at all?... What's your role in Kwiksave? Supervisor. In this depot in Clitheroe? That's right. Are you there permanently? All Yeah. day Yes. premises are opening? Yes.... What er experience have you got in er... the sale of intoxicating liquors... Miss?... Well I've worked... for the past two year really... Where? I used to work at and then... And how long have you been in these particular premises? Er... about a month. Mr Sir?... [cough]... Well no, it's just that she said And er Miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this licence? Yeah. Has an application been submitted... for that purpose? Yes.... transfer Oh...... Well I'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway Your Worships. It would appear to be most of this is Kwiksave Supermarket. ? For all practical purposes at this stage sir she may appear to you to be a fit and proper person... I've no doubt the Licensing Committee will want to know a lot more about... the situation sir. If I recall rightly I think that it's not that long ago that the licence was transferred... to the present holder.... You are aware Miss that any persons working in that department have got to be of age? Yes.... And you undertake that that will apply? Yes. And you are aware of the restrictions on drink for young people? Yeah And the sort of concern about that aspect? Yes. Well we're going [clears throat] to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep your premises open, but I must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted permanently... and the transfer stands. And we're ordering that the other person if possible attends [cough] If she's not in the district that will be difficult... but if it is possible if she's in the district we order that she attends at transfer sessions... the outgoing licensee.... Have you got the licence for... Miss? No Well that it will not be effective until er you produce that licence to this court. Erm I assume if that this er if the licensee has left those premises... w... she's physically left has she now? Yeah. Er when did she go? She left the company then? Mm. I see. Well I would have expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquors you've obviously not had a licence for a month. That will also be er considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing.... You must produce that licence, otherwise it's not effective er Miss. See as the licensee you have responsibilities. It's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do, but you, you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws.... The whole application's not been very satisfactory [cough] and the fact that the licence is not here... puts you in, in, in difficulty. We are aware now that you're operating without a licence and it's up to you to get that licence here as quickly as possible.... Er, she can go for now.... To deal with application listed number forty four Your Worships, please. It's in respect of a... temporary authority... for the Edisford Bridge Inn Your Worships. Your Worships please... I'd like to make application on behalf of Mr James Henry for a protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel. Er Mr, Mr, Mr.... your full name is James Henry? Yes sir. And you have resided for the last six months at the Railway Hotel and at er? Yes. And are you this morning applying for the protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel? Yes.... Er would you, would you... tell the... Your Worships what experience you've had in the licence trade? Er yes current position er at the moment I'm the licence training manager for... brewery and I've held that position for... five and a half years. Er previous to that I held the licence at The Three Fishes at er for three years. Er previous to that I held the licence for The Mason's Arms at for three years previous to that... and before that I've been connected with the... catering and licence trade from being fifteen. And you're therefore quali qualified to have a justices licence length of time? I And are you applying to, are you proposing to apply for the permanent transfer of this licence? Yes sir. Thank you. Er Mrs please. Mrs, your full name is Margaret? Yes. And are you the current licensee? I am yes. And do you support and consent to this application this morning? I do yes. That is the application Your Worships.... protection order be granted? Worships please.... Excuse me a moment Your Worships while I write the out.... Case fifty seven please Your Worships, Robert James. He is in the cells Your Worships take an order for him to be brought up. There are apparently further charges to be put to him Your Worships. A charge of theft and a charge of handling stolen property. He's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment.... Mr? Fifty five sir. Fifty six.... [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Are you Robert James? Yes sir. And what is your home address Mr? Is your date of birth? That's correct. Are you represented by a solicitor today? Should be. Is it Mr? I haven't a clue. You have all the documents in front of you. Well... I think Mr represented you on a previous occasion, that's why I'm asking you now. I don't know sir. My solicitor's in Birmingham Mr was duty solicitor on that day. Ah.... I think he's represented you on more than one occasion in fact hasn't he?... But don't you know whether a solicitor's going to be here for the committal proceedings today?... I haven't a clue what's happening.... I don't know, I've no If, you're the defendant, one would have thought as, as far as I know I have a committal today. That's right. And I would have thought that your solicitor was... to be here to represent you. As far as I'm aware my solicitor... has been in contact with prosecution to have the case... transferred to Birmingham Crown Court.... Well it hasn't even been committed for trial yet. Do you know anything about this Miss? I'm afraid to say that I have no knowledge. I haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody with regard to that. I would have thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed to Preston Crown Court and for the Crown Courts thereafter to sort out the final venue. I certainly have no knowledge of any contact with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file.... Your Worships legal aid was granted er... on the thirteenth of September to a firm called of Birmingham.... Looks as if they're not here Your Worships. All I can suggest sir is the case is adjourned just have to arrange for a solicitor to be here.... Do you have anything to say about that Mr? I wish the committee to go along please sir. I've been stuck up in this part In that case put it back to later in the day sir because the statements have to be read out in court. If he doesn't want to be represented, is that what you're saying...? What I'm saying sir is to save any inconvenience to the court... is that if I can have my committal... cos I don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country. I have a Crown Court appearance in Birmingham... and as far as I'm aware my solicitors have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure... and as far as I'm aware the committal this morning was to be committed to Birmingham Crown Court with other offences. Well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows Well I She knows nothing about that. I don't sir. Yeah Well in that case sir can I take my... my committal to Preston Crown Court and when I go to Birmingham If you're committed for trial from this court you will be committed to Preston. Well I'll take it now then sir. If... if it is to be arranged at another court Crown Court that arranged that Well in that case sir can you... give the committee the funds. As of now. As I say sir we need to put this matter back to later in the day. The defendant would not appear to be represented, therefore the committal will have to be dealt with by the way of reading out all the statements. It can't be done... Therefore we'll put this case back till later in the day.... Do you see that Mr? Because you're not represented Well I don't know what the situation is Well I'm telling, that's what I'm trying to tell you. That because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out... which will then take quite some time. And they will if you to court which is something you were concerned about. ... I don't know if you can help that man or not. I'll have [LAUGHTER] a word [] with him Terry Because Mr had represented him. Mr said before that he, he thought it was as duty solicitor. He, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor. But he is represented under a legal aid order, this defendant, by a firm of solicitors in Birmingham... and he's anxious to be committed for trial today. If you would represent him we could it section six two. Otherwise solicitor present today? Not a clue, but he doesn't know either. Oh I see. He's given certain information to the court which isn't correct anyway. It might help everybody concerned if you could help him. I'll have a word with him sir. Yes.... Would you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six Your Worships, Sean David. Mr will represent him.... Are you Sean David? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr? ... What is your address, Mr? ... You are charged with two offences, the first of which is that at Clitheroe on the twenty sixth of August nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse you damaged two stained glass windows, a picture frame glass and twelve drinking glasses of varying descriptions belonging to breweries, intending to damage that property, for being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged... contrary to section one of the Criminal Damage Act of nineteen seventy one. I understand Miss the value has been mentioned on a previous occasion of being three hundred and ninety five pounds. Indeed sir yes. Right. To that charge Sean David do you plead guilty or not guilty? Worships if I may interrupt that though, there's some dispute about the... damage which was allegedly caused. I have mentioned it to Miss this morning and she has... undertaken to make further enquiries. Er briefly the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels and Mr denies that he broke the second of the two. The one at the front door he says was broken at some time earlier than the evening on which he was involved. Unfortunately Miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries... er to apportion the damage and to take instructions as to the veracity of what I have just said.... It is suggested er by both myself and er my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week.... Well it was adjourned last week but er... instructions Your Worships.... ... Yes we agree to adjourn this case for one week enquiries can be made. ... Sir he does answer on conditional bail today. Well bail will be extended for one week.... So you know what that means Mr, you were told this last week. You're surrender yourself to bail... next Tuesday at ten o'clock. Hopefully the matter will proceed next week. Can he go Your Worships? Yes he can leave the court... Case number one Your Worships please. Peter John.... Are you Peter John? That's right. What's your date of birth? What's your home address Mr? You are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two... that you at Worley on the ninth of September drove a motor vehicle on the A six seven one Worley by- pass having consumed alcohol in such a quantity that the proportion of it in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit. Do you understand?... Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Have you got your driving licence with your Mr? I haven't got it Why? Because, well I told the police at the time that er I've misplaced it... and er... What have you done about getting a, a replacement? Well I haven't done anything at the moment because I didn't... I didn't think it was worth it actually. Well it says on the bottom of er your copy of the charge sheet production of driving licence... you must produce it. Failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended and it also means you've committed yet another offence by not having a driving licence here to produce Mr. Well I wa... I wasn't sure whether to... whether it would come through in time for the case... That's why I didn't send off for it. I wasn't sure what the situation was Unless the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having... a computer printout of your driving... er record and your licence record... the case won't be able to proceed today anyway. regrettably there isn't a printout of the driving licence. Well the case can't go ahead today without... your driving licence. Sorry, the case can't go ahead without your driving licence.... How many weeks do you want er Miss? Your Worships I would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout... from a computer to be obtained.... This case is adjourned for three weeks in order get a printout can be obtained. Do that mean I don't have to apply for another licence? No, what er y er I suggest you don't apply for another licence now, now you've left it so late. But er... I would urge you to try to find your driving licence because Oh I, I don't think I will be able to but I'll have a look. Right well... you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted? Yeah. What the offence... er the drink driving offence? Yes. Yeah. I realize that. You pleaded guilty to the charge anyway Mr.... The point is that when you are disqualified you're... not just disqualified from driving, you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence.... So if you've got one at home, you're committing an offence by being in possession of it.... Do you understand?... Do you understand that? Yeah. Right, from now on you mean? Yeah. When you're disqualified.... Don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime. But er you'll be in a far safer position if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of October. Can I go sir? Yes you can leave the court now.... Right Mrs? Er number twenty one sir. John Graham Twenty, twenty one? Yes sir. Could you deal with that matter Your Worships? John Graham please. Twenty one... Now are you John Graham? John Geoffrey. John? Geoffrey. Geo with a G? Yes.... What's your date of birth Mr? And what's your home address? You're summoned for a number of offences the first of which is that on the twenty first of June nineteen eighty eight you, on the public road namely Acrington Road Worley, used a mechanically propelled vehicle when there was no excise licence in force. That's an offence under the Vehicles Excise Act of nineteen seventy one. Do you understand? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you... being the driver of the motor car, having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to a police officer, failed to do so.... To that do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks... in contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the Road Traffic Act. To that are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty.... Also that on the twenty first of June you used a motor vehicle at Worley on Acrington Road when there was no test certificate in force. Are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. And finally that you failed to produce a test certificate. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty.... Has he produced these documents to you Miss? No sir. Have you got the insurance with you? Yes. And test certificate with you? I've given solicitor What? I've given them to that solicitor that Well who's your solicitor? It was duty solicitor sir. Oh. Could you tell Mr that he's wanted please, wherever he is.... ... I certainly have. Would you like me to show them to the prosecuting solicitor? Well if that will save time.... Nine present offences....... please Your Worships I am satisfied that those documents... do cover the defendant for the date in question and I would therefore offer no evidence in relation to the no insurance and no test certificate offences those. Right. Did you hear that sir? Mr those three charges... driving a motor car without insurance and a test certificate, those two charges are dismissed. Er... now let's have the prosecution, have the facts for the other offences then Miss. may please Your Worships it was the twenty first of June in the morning when the police officer was on duty... on the A six eight, the Acrington road to Worley. He had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by Mr and he noted that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact expired at the end of March. Mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own, and he was therefore given an H R T one to produce his documents.... But you will appreciate that in the matters that he has pleaded, pleaded guilty to this morning, he in fact failed to produce his insurance, driving licence and test certificate within the required period.... Your Worships those are the brief facts. I would ask you to consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence, that being for the month of... May.... This says June on here. I beg your pardon. it is in fact for the month of June. Right. I'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds. You're able to help him now are you? Yes Your Worships in fact I wonder if I may Just a minute before we start but er why are you the back duty for... June when his licence finished at the end of March? Sir I apologize. I was going by a brief statement made by the officer which indicated that it expired on the thirty first of March. I think in fact that is a... an error on the officer's part. It would appear... from the licensing authorities in fact it expired at the end of May. [speaker002:] ... [speaker001:] Your Worships er these offences arise out of er what was initially a road... traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of June er when er Mr 's vehicle came into collision with er a vehicle that was erm stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right. No er allegations of erm... concerning the correctness of his driving er are made by the pr prosecution er... as a result of the incident but er as a result of the officer's enquiries er it came to light that Mr was er in breach of some of the... er other regulations regarding road users and... er so the summonses which you are to deal with this morning have er have been issued against him. Erm and you will be aware that, er two of... three of the er summonses that are now left for you to de deal with, that's three of the four... er do in fact relate to failure to produce documents. Er failure to produce his driving licence, failure to produce a... test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance document. And what Mr says... in respect of er those three offences is that erm the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station... but he says that he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident and er he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before, er he had never er known that that was a procedure that had to be followed. And in the circumstances, he didn't pay any attention to the print on the er H R T er one form that was issued to him and he didn't produce the documents. It was completely ignorance on his part in that respect. Er Your Worships the one remaining summons is the one relating to the fact that his vehicle er wasn't taxed at the time of the accident, and I think er you, you will be aware, his tax did run out at the end of May... and this accident happened on the twenty first of June. I've asked him about that and what he said is that er he was saving up and he was going to tax the vehicle as soon as he was able to do so, but he didn't have the funds er to do so at, at that time. Erm... he is obviously aware that er by not having the vehicle taxed, it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time. Your Worships Mr works for in Worley and he works for them as an engineer. His vehicle was erm something that he did use for work but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to... er replace it and so he's having to be erm... er chauffeured by the company to do his er his work. Erm... he was using at that time an R registered Ford Escort er which was er only insured third party fire and theft. He receives for his employment a take home pay of seventy three pounds per week. He lives with his parents and pays board of twenty pounds per week. He's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening and a at lunchtime on Saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty. He hasn't any other commitments and he would ask that erm he'd be allowed to pay the fine at a rate of twenty pounds per week. Your Worships those are the circumstances, I would ask you to bear in mind that this man ha has four summonses against him purely as a result of... really ignorance as far as production of documents is concerned. They were in order and erm he would have produced them had he realized what the officer was saying to him and... er that he would have er realized had he not been suffering the shock that he was actually shuff suffering at the er at the time of the accident. I don't think ... Now Mr er... you pleaded guilty to these offences... and we've listened to what... the solicitor has said on your behalf. The main offence... of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds. You'll be ordered to pay eight pounds thirty three back duty... and ten pounds costs. the offences of failing to produce you've been fined ten pounds for each of those three offences.... We will order the fines and costs to be paid at the rate of twenty pounds a week. So... I make that a hundred and thirteen... a hundred and twenty three pounds with the costs sir... thirty three pence. No... a hundred and twenty six... thirty three.... Sorry, you're right. One two three eight. [LAUGHTER] One two three three three sir. Under do you understand that er Mr? Yes. You'll pay that at twenty pounds a week. The officer of the court is agreed the address will be given to you by the court official before you leave. It is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week. The first payment is due by next Tuesday. Erm I'm off sick at the moment from work so... So what? So I won't be able to pay the first payment cos you know I... ain't got no money. Don't you get any sick pay at all? Well erm I've just come off holiday and... so I won't be entitled to none for the first four days. I see. And when are you likely to be earning again? Erm... perhaps the middle of next week. give fourteen days for the first payment sir? Yes. You'll have fourteen days for the first payment and twenty pounds a week thereafter. So by a fortnight today there's gotta be a payment in Yes. Mr. Right? Thank you. Miss apparently you represent Mr... I... I notice from the documents from the er summons it was adjourned... because erm their solicitor wrote to say that he would be pleading not guilty? Yeah. Is that the case? Yeah Your Worships I understand that the er the prosecution have erm an application. I don't know if you wish to deal with this So who's it for? Is, if it's not going to be a trial Well Your Worship I'll do it now but if it I wonder if I can assist. It is an... a matter where Miss has spoken to me about this particular case and it Forty five.... Case forty five Your Worship. It's the view of the prosecution that this is a matter that could be dealt with quite satisfactorily by the way of bind over if the court were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action. I understand Mr would be willing to be bound over. Yes I confirm that that's correct. Yes. Well obviously Miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds... why they should bind him over. They will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future... otherwise they will not bind him over. I appreciate that sir. You may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear from the officer of the case and he is still present obviously in case the court wishes to I see. Well in that case I, I will leave it till, I'll deal with this a little bit later on. Obviously it could take possibly half an hour or so, so... who else is present Mrs?... Er number forty one sir, Sylvia.... Could you deal with that Your Worships... please? Yes. Forty one.... Are you Sylvia? Yes. What is your date of birth please? Pardon? What is your date of birth please? Er And what is your home address? Thank you. Your summoned that at Worley on the twenty fifth of July nineteen eighty eight, you being the driver or a motor car... on King Street and an accident occurred where injury was caused to you failed to stop in accordance with section twenty five of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two. Do you understand that? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Well I did stop because I tried to avoid him. Well... I'm sorry... are you Miss or Mrs? Pardon? Are you Miss or Mrs? Mrs. Mrs the court cannot enquire into the circumstances at this stage. All the court wants to know is are you pleading guilty or not guilty. Mr has handed me your driving licence. Mr as duty solicitor have you seen this lady? Yes I have seen her sir. Have you been able to... advise her? Well I, I have advised her that erm... er implications of the erm... er of the offence. Possibly I could just have another word with her Right it, it might help her.... Now I'll ask you again Mrs, to that offence of failing to stop in accordance with the requirements of the Road Traffic Act... do you plead guilty or not

[speaker001:] How long has he lived in Harlow? [Mrs Druce:] Thirty two years. We came here... on the ninth of June... nineteen fifty. [speaker001:] What did you... why did you move to Harlow? [Mrs Druce:] Well my husband... had a job here... we moved from Highbury in in London... because his firm moved... from Highbury in London to... here... and erm... got so... we had to move with my husband because of his job, you see? And er... but my husband was down here... er... a good year before we moved down here... because... there wasn't accommodation available... for us to move with i... him you see? So erm... he travelled... backwards and forwards for... a year prior to us... coming to live here permanently. [speaker001:] What did you think of it when you first moved here? [Mrs Druce:] [LAUGHTER] Well []... it really was so different from... a built up place... but er... um, when, but the day that we came in... it was... mm, pouring with rain... everywhere was muddy... and er... of course,i i... there were only erm... one part of this town... this area, rather... that... had been occupied because all the other parts were all fields. There was just the erm... Broomfield Staffield... Tanys Dell... erm... Glebelands... and that was the... all the area that was built up when we came here. Our children... had to go to Chingford to school. My daughter was of er... grammar school... erm... tuition... but we couldn't put her into anywhere here because there were... no schools available... Loughton wouldn't take her... neither would... er, Bishop's Stortford because they were the only two grammar schools available here and erm... my dau, other daughter... with many other children er, well all the, children of the residency in Tanys Dell and the Glebelands... had to travel... to Chingford every day to school. Then the infant school... the first class of the infants... we had in a hut... on Netteswell Road... and then we went, they came from that hut there to the servant's quarters of Mark Hall. The o, the Mark Hall... only Mark Hall wasn't there because it had been previously burnt down. So... that was our first... se... good school, as you may say then... and then within about four years... they built Tanys Dell... and erm... we just... you know, we formed a... quite a a... a very good community here because we were all people from different areas... we all had the same problems trying to... re-adjust in a new place... and I think then, we had... more... relationship with, with our neighbours than people are having today. Because [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] yo you know if we had problems we'd each... talk to them and we had of course, we had, we formed a resident association and we took our problems to the resident's association... and... and we wo, you know, if we had problems which could be ironed out... the man, general manager of the development corporation, Mr... would come and listen to our complaints... and... we seemed, you know, we we got along very... very well really for... such a small place with nothing... because the only shopping facilities were in the old town... or we had to go to Epping... or Bishop's Stortford... you see? [speaker001:] Mm. How did the people in the old town feel? [Mrs Druce:] They resented us in the beginning... but I think as the years have gone by... and they have seen the facilities that... a new town has brought to their advantage... I think they're more acceptable now, but they did resent us in the beginning. Well I think everybody would, that had had their privacy... erupted like... they had been because they'd been a small community... for... well through the years you see... and for strangers to come in, I think it applies... in every place that you go to, new places, you know... that are built up... after it just being a little country village people do resent you... but I think now that they, they are... really... erm... accepting us for the fact that we have brought things that they would never have had... had the new town not been er... sta, you know started here. [speaker001:] So have you always lived in this house? [Mrs Druce:] Yes. I came down when my husband was working on the factory site then... as I say, prior to us coming to live here... this was... hadn't been even built... so we've seen it grow from... the floor... to what it is today, you know? I it really was... an adventure... it was really was an adventure. [speaker001:] What business was your husband in then? [Mrs Druce:] He was an engineer... and erm... he he was... he made co, he worked on conveyers and things... and then he changed his occupation... became a civil servant... and he worked at the Admiralty... down on... Templefields... until it... closed... about ten years, cos my husband has been retired about five years now. Er [speaker001:] How do you feel about Harlow now? [Mrs Druce:] I think it's a wonderful place! And I think... the council... are trying their utmost to... make facilities for all ages. I mean, when we came here, as I say, we had nothing, our children, if they wanted erm... any entertainment... we had to make our own entertainment, which we did. My son started a youth club... in one of the common rooms and... we as residents we got together... we really enjoyed ourselves in... our way, you know? But er... I think, [LAUGHTER]... people that have got so much now... feel they haven't got enough. [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] They want more! But... they've got to realise that... Rome wasn't [LAUGHTER] built in a day []! And I mean, through the years which this town is about... thirty four years old? That's including Chippingfield... if you had seen it as we saw it when we came here... you would recognise how much work has gone... into... building the town... because I was on the... the council then... I was asked if I would stand for... the council... which was then... only a parish council... there was no... urban district council... that wasn't formed for... four or five years afterwards... and... of course, we had to fight for... lights... everything that, er that we needed we had to fight for... because there was... no... lighting on Netteswell Road... where our children were going to school, and there were little ones. We had to fight for... parks... swimming pools... everything that we wanted, we had to fight for! But people now are coming in... and they're expecting everything to... be here.... They don't realise that... it has taken many years to bring the town up to the standard it is now. And, very hard working people have had to do the fighting for what we have got! [speaker001:] Did you have erm, any special job on the council? [Mrs Druce:] Well... erm... I had different kinds of positions. I was er... Chairman of Public Health... and... various chim, I was Chairman of the Road Safety, which I was very interested in... I was very road safety conscious... and... we each were given a job... which we tried to do the best we could with... and then... we... well, whatever we were asked to do we began to make... a good town, you know? This is what we, we were aiming for... we were trying to make a town for the people. And for, our children... when they grow up... cos I had three children... nearly every one that had come into the town had little ones... so you see we were trying to build a town... for our children to benefit... which I don't know whether you think... that... it's a town worth living in... but I think that we have done... very well... and it's a town that is caring... for... such as the elderly... they really do care! Cos, lots of towns and... even... good towns that yo you would of thought that are better off than Harlow would have been... would have been... don't do half as much... for the... pensioners as Harlow does. I think they are very caring! If o, people would only appreciate the fact that... you can't have everything, you just can't have everything! I mean, schools... the only thing I was, I'd been governor of a... a school for thirty years... that was... used to depress me with the fact that we couldn't get... for our schools... the things that we needed... because to me and to all the people in Harlow who have children... are concerned... that we are... being stopped so much money on education which is the most vital thing... in our children's lives! Without education what kind of a country are we going to have? It's so important! So important! [speaker001:] So do you use the Leah Manning? [Mrs Druce:] Dame Leah Manning was my very best friend! She... came to me one day and asked me if I would stand for the council, which I did. I have her book here. She... ro... did an autobiography of a... education... and she was the most wonderful person... that you would ever wish to meet! She fought for... the working class... she fought for education... she fought for everything to benefit the community... she was a wonderful person! She really was! [speaker001:] Do you think that erm... any of the town's been... badly designed for the old people? [Mrs Druce:] Well I don't se... I don't think that it has been badly designed for the old people, I think the object of building the town as it has been built... is to... integrate the... erm... the old people... with the young, perhaps the young people... resent that... but I think we have got to have a... mixed community... in as much as we have got to... be aware that old people need... attention... in as much as they need... companionship... and if they are... not integrated with the community they are going to be... I really se, just left out on their own... which in lots of cases there are very, very many lonely people, old people... but if they are... put within the community... I think the community will look after them, in as much as giving them companionship... whether the people, some people resent it or not, I don't know, but I do think... that they should... not be segregated. [speaker001:] When you were a councillor was there anything so, erm that you did definite to... help the old people? [Mrs Druce:] Well, there weren't so many old people then... when we came here... [LAUGHTER]... we were classed as one of the oldest people because er... they were all very young people... and... you were talking about Dame Leah Manning... and she came to me one day and she said we're going to have a problem on the town because it's a very young town. She said, what do you think of us starting a family planning clinic? Because we had people coming into the town... that had come out of rooms... one and two rooms... in Har, in wherever they came from to Harlow... and... there were so many things that they required for their home... that they couldn't afford to have... big families... and... pay their way. So, we opened... a family planning clinic at Nuffield House... with all volunteer workers, nobody was paid! The doctors gave their services, the nurses gave their services, all the lay workers give their services... and from one clinic... we went to seven clinics in a week! And I was in charge of the clinics. [speaker001:] Mm. Erm, how did you get involved with the Barnardos then? [Mrs Druce:] Well... one day, I had a knock at the door... and... it was a Mr from Stepney Causeway that is the headquarters of... Barnardos. Erm, I mean... headquarters as from adminis, the administrative erm... part of it... I don't know whether you saw the... Barnardos This is Your Life lady [speaker001:] Yeah, I know. [Mrs Druce:] last night? [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] Well, Barkingside was a big home... they also have one out at Ware... they also had one at Upshire... but the Upshire one were for disabled children. So this gentleman came and he was i, said... would I be prepared to... run a fete... in aid of Doctor Barnardos Home? Well at that particular time I was already on the council, I was doing family planning... which took up an awful lot... of my time. So he said... it wouldn't involve much, but to run a fete does involve a lot of work. [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] So we talked and... I said well we would think about it and we would let him know... so we collected all the friends that we thought would... like to help... which were many... people were very good to help! And... the following... visit he made here he brought with him Miss Virginia... she was one of the personnel at Stepney Causeway she was the Miss Virginia, the niece of the line... and she came... and she said that she would help... in erm... doing some organisation and and... giving us some insight as to what we had to do, because we had never run... a fete in all our lives! So... we got everyone together here... the bank manager, was Mr then, Barclays Bank... we got two or three of the industrialists... all of the members that were prepared to help... and... we started from there. We wrote to... oh I don't know how many stars... for articles that they wish to give... so that we could raise money by them. The... catholic school... which was the only... school available then to us... fo with the field that was... we which we needed. The Sister Constance, who was the then the principal sister there... she let us have the field... so we got... entertainment laid on... we invited a celebrity, I think our first celebrity was erm... I think it was Lord and Lady...... and... then each time we had a different one, we had entertainment the whole time we started, about half past two and then we had entertainment until six... then we had an interval... then we had entertainment till twelve o'clock... I even took my piano down onto the field so that we could have music. We raised quite... a good sum for the first time... and that went to the Barnardos home. Then the following one... we had... erm... Lord and Lady... they came as guests of ours. Then we did another one... and Tommy Cooper came! And... we've, each time we had someone... of importance to bring in the people. Now, Tommy Cooper he never charged us one penny! All we had to do... was to pay the expense of the helicopter that brought him in... because at that time he was appearing at the Prince of Wales and it was a matter of him... fitting his time in with his performances, you see? Which we did. We brought him here... ou, he changed his clothes from his... own suit into the pied piper... and erm... then we got him back to the Prince of Wales Theatre. Well the money that we raised from there... and also from another one was about three thousand... nearly four thousand... three thousand something... and we presented... er... Tommy Cooper with the cheque on the Prince, the stage of the Prince of Wales Theatre, but that cheque was to buy... a special ambulance... for the children of Upshire, which is the home of the disabled... and this special coach had erm... places where you could... wheel the children into the coach... in their chairs with the clamps and those children that could be taken out of their chairs and put on seats... put and had their belts put around them... and that was the only way that these children were able to get out! Then on our next project we... raised money for... the swimming pool that they required. Then, for the following one... we bought the first meals on wheels van... so that with all the money that we've collected for Harlow day we bought something out of the money. And we really had a wonderful time doing it! We took the children, when we had the bus... we took the children to Southend... that was the first time they had all been out together... and the owner of the Kersal... and the person responsible... on the council for... the erm... maintaining of of Southend, such as the Chairman, they put... the Kersal at our disposal! And before the children left... they were given a carrier bag with... all sorts of things that you could think of... and to see the delight on those little children's faces!... It was worth all the hard work... that we had put into it... because... it got that we used to use the town park towards the latter part of Barnardos day... and all the men that we had gathered together... used to have to erect... every piece of fence... to enclose... like it is now, the park, is enclosed now with with fencing... the men that were helping us did that all voluntarily! And mis the the constructors here... they loaned us different equipment and we worked from Monday to Friday getting the... things ready... we worked all day Saturday doing the show, and we worked all day Sunday clearing the field! It was very hard work but it was worth it. [speaker001:] When did Barnardos day become the town show? [Mrs Druce:] I can't remember... erm... they took... I just can't remember when they took over from us. But erm... I don't think that the town show... [LAUGHTER] perhaps I was []... I'm prejudiced to the fact that, that we'll be losing money rather than making it... but... it wasn't... anything like we put on for entertainment! Nothing at all! They put it on a bigger scale... but the entertainment... far below ours! I may be bragging [LAUGHTER] but []... it er... we had a wonderful day! We had the American band, we had the horse guards... from London... we brought them all up on the train, the horses and the guards and... we had wonderful times! [speaker001:] What other entertainment was there in Harlow at the time? [Mrs Druce:] Well... not very much unless you made it yourself, you know, if you were, the factories used to have their own erm... dances... and... the... Embers, it used to be the Embers then, that's the place in the Stow, they had danci, yes, they had dancing there... and they put on competitions for different things... and my son, with lots of others er, did erm... a rock and roll thing... which needed thirty six hours. And... we... made our own entertainment... that is the thing about it, you know? There wasn't much laid on for you because er... I think with new people you've gotta get them... into the spirit of doing something... otherwise you sit here, all sitting down doing nothing! This is... how we felt. And we had so many good people... in the beginning, as I say, that really... wanted to help... for to make... entertainment, you know? [speaker001:] Erm... do you take part in any of the entertainments now? [Mrs Druce:] Not now... no. I resigned from the family planning about... seven years ago when my husband retired, as I say... because he used to help me very much... and... when he retired... and my children had all... married... I felt it was time that I should retire too. I'd done twenty years... in the family planning... and I'd done twelve years... on the council... and I'd done thirty years... as school governor. So... now I'm sitting back doing nothing! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mrs Druce:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh is, looking back, do you think that Harlow's been a successful project? [Mrs Druce:] I think so. [speaker001:] Oh. [Mrs Druce:] I think so. But, you see the thing about it is... we have got a... take towns... for what we make of them... you see... we could just all sit back, people say they're bored! There's nothing to do! But if you look around... there is so much to do! And there's so much voluntary work to be done... if people have got spare time... to go and help... but, I don't know whether it's the... sign of the times that people only want to... do jobs... for monetary gain. That maybe... the idea, but... there are so many things to be done... by voluntary workers... if people would only... say well I've got half an hour... an hour... it could be... so much... of an advantage to... whoever they're giving their services to... because we're having to cut costs on this and costs on that... an hour or two given voluntary... would... cover those jobs that we... can't get the money to pay for. [speaker001:] Has your view of Harlow changed over the years? [Mrs Druce:] My view of Harlow? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] It hasn't changed, no... because... we er haven't gone back... we are going forward all the time. I mean, we've had the facilities as we have now in the town centre... I mean, it has improved this town immensely! We're not only catering for Harlow people... we are catering for people... outside... which is bringing... money into Harlow... helping the finance of Harlow... and... I think we are just progressing... with the times. We're not going back. If we had more money to spend I'm sure there would be far more things that the councils would like to... do... but without money you can't do it! And things are... very expensive to do. When we say... and we've often said it, well we could do with this, we could do with that... like we used to say, we wanted the swimming pool... well... that cost an awful lot of money! To do the town park... that cost an awful lot of money! People think oh, you can do this, you can do that! We could do a lot of things... but without the finance you just can't do it! [speaker001:] Don't think I've got any [Mrs Druce:] Aha. [speaker001:] more, can't think of any more questions. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? [Mrs Druce:] Well... the only thing is that I hope that... the next generation that is coming along now... will appreciate... what has been done... for... their generation... because... it took a long time for us to... get what we wanted for our children... and now with our grandchildren are coming along... I hope the town will improve... with their growth. As the town has grown... with our children. And, if people would appreciate it... and keep it... as it should be... cos to me, I think... there's a lot of error in people neglecting their places. Which is detrimental to the town... and we are trying to keep this town... as... we think it ought to be kept. [speaker001:] Do your children still live in Harlow? [Mrs Druce:] Yes... not all of them. I have erm... one daughter living here... and a son living here... but my eldest daughter is in the United States... and... my granddaughter is just finishing her last year of law. So... what just i, well my... eldest daughter away... and she's been away this... month... twenty six years. [speaker001:] That's a long time innit? [Mrs Druce:] It is a long time. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] [LAUGHTER] Seems like a life time []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... Have you ever been over to see her? [Mrs Druce:] Yes... we were... there last year because my granddaughter got married. We go quite frequent, my daughter's you know [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] wants us to go over as often as we can... and we try and... and often as we can. The only thing about it it's not... [LAUGHTER]... very inexpensive to go there [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mrs Druce:] it's not just like [LAUGHTER] going... going on a bus and []... but erm... my daughter's very generous and... seeing that we... we get to her... and we spend about three months... with her. Cos you can't go and say well I'm only going for a couple of weeks! [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] [LAUGHTER] Stay for the weekend []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []! We would like... we would like to go every week you know Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] but erm... she phones us and... you know... oh I had a... car, erm letter from her yesterday with er photographs and things like that. [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] And she was saying how well my granddaughter was getting along in the University. She has... just this last year to go... and er... we hope for her sake everything goes well for her because she's... brilliant, and as you see I have to fly the flag for her because she's [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] she's so Americanized you see? But erm... we have to fly the flag! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mrs Druce:] [LAUGHTER]... But as I say... what do you feel as... as students... do you feel that you have... the facilities here that... could be improved on... or... or [speaker001:] Well [Mrs Druce:] are you satisfied with what... you have? [speaker001:] I think that wha what we've got [speaker003:] Well [speaker001:] is very good! [speaker003:] Yeah. I just can't believe that... that just things that are ha, going to be happening [speaker001:] Yeah exactly! [Mrs Druce:] Out of the sixth... from the sixth form that you're [speaker001:] Yeah, that's right. [Mrs Druce:] going to... Yes, we've tri [speaker001:] The school have [Mrs Druce:] we... been trying to fight that but [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] the ones above us are... stronger than we are, as I say, finance comes into it again you see? [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] And the thing about it is... such as erm... well not only Tanys Dell... that... biggest part of school is here... the population has decreased... so much in the last ten years... that we having now to close schools [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] where we were trying... desperately to have schools... because... we had no schools when we first came here as I say. But... now they are closing them... we've got so many good teachers out of work... where... ten years ago we were fighting to get good teachers... and smaller classes... but now... you see, we've got smaller classes [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] but... we haven't got the... children... to... engage the teachers, you see? [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] What do you think about the comprehensive schooling? [speaker003:] Well [speaker001:] I think it's good. [speaker003:] yeah, I think it's good! We've never known anything different you see. [Mrs Druce:] You haven't? [speaker003:] No. [Mrs Druce:] You haven't known anything different? Well as I say, my daughter was a grammar school tea, er pupil... but erm... my so, grandsons... I have one now at... he'll be twenty two this year, went to Burnt Mill... I have another grandson in Burnt Mill [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] I have a granddaughter now... going up to Burnt Mill... and I think... myself, they couldn't have done... any better... in the grammar school. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. Well [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean, my sister's school they have right from the start... and er... they don't... I don't think you get a wide enough circle of friends really. [speaker003:] Yeah. Instead just [speaker001:] Like, stick to your own type. [speaker003:] And your social assets... just develop so much better at a comprehensive. [Mrs Druce:] Too much segregation [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] at school? Yes, well this is, this is what the intention of the comprehensive school was in the beginning... was to... ha, let every child... have the same opportunity... which I'm sure they're getting... in the comprehensive school. People do say that... erm... there are far too many pupils... but if you've got the stuff... and the accommodation, which our school provide... they're not overcrowded. If the if they're provided with the right kind of teacher... then I think the pupil... will be... given that opportunity if it's, the potential is there... to... bring it out, but you some of the children don't want to learn... well that's not the fault of the school! [speaker001:] No. [Mrs Druce:] That's the... the child themselves... you see? I mean if you don't, think, oh well I'd... I don't want to be... well it's not the teachers fault cos you don't get on! But the thing about it is the school gets the bad name! [speaker001:] Yeah. [Mrs Druce:] You see? It isn't the child, they say oh oh oh! They're not doing this or that... but... in lots of cases, and I've known of lots of cases where children just don't want to know! [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] You see? So you go... are you... going now from your sixth form... into the college this time? [speaker001:] No we'll have finished. [speaker003:] No we'll have finished then. [Mrs Druce:] You're finishing [speaker003:] But [Mrs Druce:] now? [speaker003:] Yeah, well next [speaker001:] No. [speaker003:] year after we've done our A levels. [Mrs Druce:] Af, you're ow, you're doing the le the levels now? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] That'll be it. And that'll be end of the school [Mrs Druce:] And what what are you erm... qualifying in? [speaker001:] Well [Mrs Druce:] What levels are you taking... for what? [speaker001:] I'm doing English, History and Chemistry. [speaker003:] And I'm doing... Maths, Physics and History. [Mrs Druce:] Very good! [speaker003:] Oh well. [Mrs Druce:] Well, I wish you... every success! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you []. [Mrs Druce:] And I wish you every success in your project too. [speaker001:] Mm. [Mrs Druce:] And I hope that I've been of some assistance. [speaker003:] You have [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker003:] yeah! So [Mrs Druce:] I, I can't think the there's anything else you you'd... like to ask me? [speaker001:] No, I don't think so. [speaker003:] Can't remember. [Mrs Druce:] That erm [speaker001:] Turn the tape off.

[speaker001:] So tell me about when you first moved in, Mr isn't it? [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm, in nineteen fifty one to... can you remember what it was like when you first moved in? [speaker002:] Yes, there were er, I think there was one, two, three, four houses, four or five houses that were occupied before we came in, they were still building The Chantry incidently and er... you know it was a... it was quite a shock to us and the wife was a bit upset you know when having to, we came from Plymouth actually, Devon, and er the wife was a bit er down you know all the night travelling all night with the children [speaker003:] Oh [speaker002:] with three of them [speaker003:] I remember that [speaker001:] You remember it? [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] yeah, cos didn't you [speaker002:] and of course we arrived in Harlow on the train and we couldn't see any new buildings anywhere, you know near Harlow Mill [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] and er, they were coming up and went across to get a drink of lemonade and it was a bloody hot day, really, you know a midsummer day and erm, we went across to this kind of cafe place that's opposite the station and I saw two men with rubber boots on so I went over and ask them where the New Town was, and they told us where, walk up the road till you come to the lights, turn right, follow the lane and you'll come to the New Town erm [speaker003:] And that was the old Netteswell Lane wasn't it? [speaker001:] Did you come by car? [speaker002:] No by train [speaker003:] We never had a car [LAUGHTER] had we? [speaker001:] So you walked? [speaker003:] We walked from the station yeah it's Harlow [speaker002:] Yeah we walked as far as the lights [speaker003:] Harlow Mill as it was then [speaker002:] on the what was then the A eleven [speaker003:] Oh that was Harlow Town Station then wasn't it? [speaker002:] It's called Harlow Town [speaker003:] Called Harlow Town and Burnt Mill but now it's the other way round [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] and erm, we'd got there and a young lady came along delivering milk you know with a big milk float and she put the, the twins Brenda and [speaker003:] No I thought, no [speaker002:] er no mother, you and [speaker003:] mum, I didn't [speaker002:] mum sat next to you in the front, this, she sat you two on top of the [speaker001:] On the float? [speaker003:] Yeah, cos we had [speaker002:] and Keith and I walked [speaker003:] and mum couldn't walk any further could she? [speaker001:] So you had three children? [speaker002:] Yes, mhm [speaker001:] And your age's what nine, and you have a twin? [speaker003:] Yeah I have a twin brother and erm [speaker002:] Another nine and a brother fourteen [speaker003:] and Katie was five years old [speaker002:] well he was fourteen the following August [speaker003:] yeah he was five years old he was [speaker002:] that August we arrived, mm and er when we got here of course it was just, we went down this lane [speaker001:] Eh [speaker002:] of course which is now Netteswell Lane and [speaker003:] But didn't you come up a few days before us? You were here before us weren't you? [speaker002:] No, no, no you've got it the wrong way round, I went, I brought you here and then I had to go back cos I was in the Royal Marine Police [speaker003:] Yeah, but, but didn't you when you got here they'd given you, don't you remember? [speaker002:] Ah, no [speaker003:] and you went to and somebody was living [LAUGHTER] in there [] [speaker002:] no, no love, because wasn't built then [speaker003:] It was dad, that bit was built [speaker002:] Oh well, no what happen was [speaker003:] don't you remember you had to go to the housing office [speaker002:] just before we left Plymouth they altered it to, I knew it was the [speaker003:] Oh [speaker001:] It was [speaker003:] A hundred and eleven [speaker001:] A hundred and eleven [speaker002:] That's right [speaker003:] it was right opposite the pub now, but that was all fields then weren't it? [speaker002:] That was all fields, yeah [speaker001:] So your wife hadn't seen the house [speaker002:] Oh no [speaker001:] before you actually moved in? [speaker002:] no we didn't know what we were going to [speaker003:] No it was a long way to come from Plymouth you know so we didn't know. [speaker002:] We came on a, I think it was on a Friday or Saturday morning and I had to go back Sunday night, cos I was on duty on the Monday back in Plymouth, and I did a month in Plymouth, er, a month or five weeks no longer, and I came up each weekend to see them, my wife was left there then. [speaker003:] Didn't [speaker001:] It must of been, it must of been very difficult for her? [speaker002:] She had everything to do really [speaker003:] Yeah, I think, I think she's [speaker002:] exhilarating shop hours [speaker003:] marvellous really, you know, to do it [speaker002:] and all our shopping was down at the Old Town, you had to go down this lane to the Old Town if you wanted a stamp [speaker003:] Yeah, the nearest shops was the Old Town [speaker002:] or anything [speaker003:] but we got [speaker002:] The nearest shops and that of course were Epping or Bishop's Stortford [speaker003:] Yeah but with Bob and I, Bob and I went to erm Mark Hall House [speaker002:] That's right [speaker003:] it isn't there any more, beautiful old house like Moot House, similar to Moot House wasn't it? [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] And they converted that into a school infant's school [speaker002:] remember the old servants quarters for er [speaker003:] Yeah they made a, built a playground that's all they did, just had a playground [speaker002:] for the original Mark Hall [speaker003:] the rest of it was just the original house, you know, it was a beautiful place, why they pulled it down [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah [speaker003:] I suppose, I suppose it was falling down [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] but, it seems such a shame cos er big double gates you went in, you know, it was lovely, erm where did Keith go to school then? [speaker002:] Newport Grammar school [speaker003:] Oh yeah, yeah, he didn't go to school in Harlow [speaker002:] he passed his eleven plus as it was then and er he went to a school called Regent Street Grammar school in Plymouth and when we moved in here... I had to go to Holly House, I think they call it [speaker003:] Yeah at Loughton [speaker002:] to the Council Education Offices to see what school I could get him in, you see I wanted a good school for him because he was showing the ability, you know, er, and er eventually I went to Harlow Grammar school that's what it was called then [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] and it was er a kind of public school [speaker003:] A boys' school [speaker002:] a boys' school and the headmaster there advised me not to put him there, he said send him to Newport Grammar school it's the best school in Essex, best grammar school in Essex and he said that my two boys go there [speaker003:] Poor Keith had to go to this, he had to go the station every day on his bike [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] and go all the way to Newport didn't he? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] To school every day [speaker001:] It sounds like a long way? [speaker003:] Well it's, it is quite a long way [speaker002:] Well he had a, Newport was on the line, er Cambridge line so it wasn't too bad [speaker003:] He didn't have to change, no, but, how, how far's Newport then? [speaker001:] Move to Harlow? [speaker002:] Well I mo moved because promotion was in the line for me, I was in the Royal Marine Police in island depot in Plymouth and er I'd been put on plain clothes work and I'd been doing acting sergeant you know when the sergeant was off sick and all that business and er... I'd put, been put in for this to move because we had a two bedroom bungalow but the twins were getting big and I realized that we'd have to have another bedroom you know, very soon and er [cough], this seemed an opportunity to get a house and also in Plymouth, that Plymouth was a naval town, you see, there was still those days there was still kind of a, a lower deck of sons, what they call lower deckers, in other words you know people in the lower deck of the navy, their sons didn't really have much, ever have much chance of getting into places like Dartmouth College or Cramwell to do as cadets, well the headmaster at Regent Street School had said to me that Keith was very keen on flying, he was aeroplane mad you see, and, he wanted to go in the Royal Air Force, well he said to me he said oh no put him in the Navy and as a chief art as an artificer, so I said oh no, I said if he goes in the Navy or the service I want him to go in the front door not like me the back door, I had ambition for him anyhow that made me feel there was no future in Plymouth for that, so this opportunity came, I came and when I got here they didn't carry any sergeants so I would of had to move again if I wanted promotion, which I wasn't prepared to do for this, mainly for his education, unfortunately the didn't get much thought then like [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] cos they weren't showing any exceptional [speaker003:] Life always good enough for us [speaker002:] abilities at school [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and er [speaker001:] So you can, so you got a promotion and you were working in the Navy when you came [speaker002:] I'd left the Navy [speaker001:] Oh I see [speaker002:] I'd left my pension from the Navy, but I'd gone into what was then known as the police, er familiarly dockyard police. [speaker001:] So you didn't actually work in Harlow? [speaker003:] Yes, you, you came with the Admiralty didn't you? [speaker001:] I came with the Admiralty here but, they, they had a factory here [speaker003:] There was an Admiralty factory in Harlow [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] a research laboratory in West Road and [speaker001:] Cos everybody who moved into Harlow moved because there was a job here [speaker003:] Oh that's right [speaker002:] oh yes, yes you got your job really through the [speaker003:] you got the house through the job [speaker002:] you got the house through the your job I should say [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] And you were allocated this house in The Chantry? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker001:] You were allocated the house in The Chantry [speaker002:] That's right [speaker001:] you didn't choose [speaker002:] Before we came here, no [speaker003:] Oh no, no, no, but we moved, how long we, were we at a hundred and eleven dad? Cos we moved to ninety five, wasn't built when we moved into a hundred and eleven [speaker002:] That's it [speaker003:] a hundred and eleven was a three bedroom house, then we moved into a four bedroom house didn't we [speaker002:] That's right [speaker003:] at ninety five, but I don't know how long we were, how long were we at hundred and eleven? [speaker002:] Oh a matter of months four, six months [speaker003:] So it wasn't long, no it couldn't of been very long [speaker002:] Oh it couldn't be much longer than that, my father, my father retired he was a publican in the village [speaker003:] Oh that's right yeah [speaker002:] in the North Riding of Yorkshire and he retired and he went and er lived in a bungalow belonging to er it was then Sir Ever Everard [speaker003:] retired, retired [speaker002:] who had an estate and there were St Trinian's incidentally er,inciden that's where the name came from for the books and friend of theirs and relation of his wrote the book I don't know, something like that, and anyhow eventually I got [speaker003:] They came [speaker002:] worried about them being so far as they've the only child, and talked them into come down and live with us, so then I applied and got a move to just after it was built, which was a four bedroom house. [speaker001:] So that your father could come to live with you? [speaker002:] So that my father could come down and live with me. [speaker003:] Yeah, and we lived there for a long time didn't you, you stayed in that house for a long, long time [speaker002:] Oh yes [speaker003:] till after I was married [speaker002:] mm I think you were all married from that house [speaker003:] Before we'd all, we were all married, yeah yeah in ninety five and er [speaker002:] We've been in this house for about twelve years [speaker003:] We moved into a two bedroom house, but it's only up the road at you know, [LAUGHTER] you're really not very far away are you? [speaker002:] No, well we had a four bedroomed house and they were all married, mother and father had gone back to Yorkshire [speaker003:] Yes, yeah [speaker002:] my father was dead, died in the Yorkshireman and er, he missed his cricket and what have you. [speaker001:] Well tell me what it was like for you, from your point of view, erm, erm coming to a New Town with a teenage son because most of the couples who came either didn't have any children or were just about to have baby [speaker003:] That's right [speaker001:] so what was it like, you know, from your point of view and, and first, yes [speaker002:] Well to tell you the truth I wasn't very keen, I er, I felt that we made a mistake [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker003:] Neither of them did want that did you? [speaker002:] You felt it ought to be because the feeling I had nobody for at least another generation would really have the roots in Harlow, that was looking at my children [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] you see, and I felt myself well they're, they're Plymouth, they were all born in Devonport and Plymouth [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] the oldest boy Devonport and that's where their roots were [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] do you follow? [speaker001:] Yes, of course [speaker002:] So coming here it felt as though we'd uprooted and, they would never get their roots down because they weren't really [speaker003:] Yeah but I've always felt, I really feel as if [speaker002:] Oh you've always [speaker003:] Harlow is [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] you know, where I belong, I, I don't quite honestly don't really like Harlow New Town any more, I al I did up until about oh eight or nine years ago I thought it was a great place and all, all the cockneys that said, you know, oh I'd love to be back in London, I thought they were barmy, you know to live in London the di the difference is, I mean my husband's a cockney and he wouldn't, would never, well now he would never go back to London you know, it's a dump, he, he likes Harlow, but er I think I don't like it now because it's expanded so much, you know when we, when we were first here, mind you when we first moved in it was ever so difficult for us kids because, there, there was the Old Town kids versus the New Town kids and they hated us, they really [speaker001:] Really [speaker003:] didn't like us, oh no, no, no matter where we went there was always, there wasn't trouble like there is now, I mean there was no violence as such you know, but we thought it was at the time, you know, they weren't very nice to us at all [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] and of course we was, I suppose we weren't very nice to them. [speaker001:] Did you mix in the school or was it just [speaker003:] Erm [speaker001:] er New Town children in the school? [speaker003:] no it was really New Town school children, because there was Forbert and Barnard's school down the Old Town and that's where the Old Town, all the Old Town people went, children went, so really Mark Hall was just New Town children you know, and then when, when we were eleven and had to go to another school we, er there was no comprehensive school in Harlow then, er we had to get on a bus and go to Chingford that was, didn't we? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] We used to have to catch the bus every morning and go to Chingford to school until Mark Hall was built and, erm and there was only one part of Mark Hall school built when we went there, there was only a few classrooms and er, it's all grew up, the school grew up around us you know it's a bit [speaker001:] How did you feel, cos, you said that you can remember the first day that you arrived [speaker003:] Yeah I know [speaker001:] can you recall that? [speaker003:] Yeah, oh yeah I remember it quite well I, I can remember that I, the only parts of Harlow I liked were the country lanes, I didn't like all the new houses, but then I'd been brought up in the country [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] you know [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] Excuse me... [speaker002:] This came from the parents of the children in the Old Town, because of far as I can gather from talking to the people in the Old Town that er, oh course, like everywhere else, like the building of Stansted Airport or the, you know, there was people who were against, I mean the beautiful countryside spoilt by a New Town, so they had these committees and brigadier and these people, you know, er... had a deputation and all this business and I think some of that rubbed off on the children and, and you've [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] got this er, not, not hate, it was just a kind of [speaker001:] Resentment? [speaker003:] There was, there was a resentment [speaker002:] resentment to the new children, that I should of [speaker003:] I suppose I can understand it now, I mean it must of been a lovely place, and then to have all these new houses going up you know, but erm, I mean there was some lovely, lovely lanes [speaker002:] Oh yeah often used to get up in the morning and look out of the bedroom window and see a pheasant in the back garden [speaker003:] Yeah, which you don't see now [speaker002:] and rabbits you know. [speaker001:] So you've still got a feeling of the countryside then? [speaker003:] Oh it was yeah, yeah it was nice, I mean yeah I mean you had to go across fields to move house didn't you? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] You used to have to go across fields [speaker002:] Oh yes [speaker003:] to Moot House [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] and yet you know now it's just up the road [speaker002:] First Avenue was, First Avenue was built [speaker003:] it seemed a long way away [speaker002:] er, all of this side, er you know First Avenue do you? [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] Well all this side of First Avenue of course was all country all this was fields and corn fields and what have you [speaker003:] Most of the other side was as well [speaker002:] and woods, copse, odd copse here and there [speaker003:] Yeah there was just the church there [speaker002:] beautiful, we used to go for some lovely walks didn't we? [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] Walk down to the river, it was all countryside [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] from where we lived from there apart from the fact they were building a few factories then [speaker003:] A few factories yeah [speaker002:] the other side of the factories was all country [speaker003:] but you [speaker002:] down to the river you know [speaker003:] you could walk down Netteswell Lane to Burnt Mill Station, it was lovely down there [speaker002:] Little Burnt Mill Station [speaker003:] Burnt Mill Station [speaker002:] of course, yeah [speaker003:] all the lanes around it, you know, of course they, cos Mrs next door to you lived in [speaker002:] She lived in those [speaker003:] one of those houses [speaker002:] Yes, oh yes she [speaker003:] by the station, her husband worked on the railway there. [speaker002:] He was the signal man at Dartmoor was [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] Alf, yeah. [speaker001:] If you can go back to the first day that you arrived [speaker003:] Mhm [speaker001:] when you first saw the house for the very, very first time and when your wife saw the house, what was the reaction? [speaker002:] Well it wasn't er [phone rings] the wife it was a bit of a setback, we had a bungalow you see, a small bungalow which was in a very, very nice part of Plymouth, well on the outskirts of Plymouth actually, almost in the country and er, to come and find this, well to her it'd be like a, a terraced house, her mind went back to the old days in Manchester where she came from with the old terraced houses and I think she visualized that then to go in a house that had a, a square room, do you follow? And that, er it was kind of and the garden was small cos we had it, a quite big garden and you know things like that, I think, and the travelling and everything I think got her down a bit, I know she sat down and had a cry, yeah. [speaker001:] And how long did it take before you felt settled in? [speaker002:] Oh a long time, er, matter of years really before I could settle down at, as I say to me it was roots [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] that's what it amounted to [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] and you see then I started thinking what I should of done when I, like everyone else, thinking what I should of done [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] which is ridiculous really, you don't live for the past, but you did think, I think everybody did [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] you know, thought back to, if I'd of only gone to Yorkshire, gone back to Manchester, I'd of felt my roots, see I was born in Manchester, and [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] Yorkshire prairie on a Yorkshire farm and you know what I mean, and now I go to Manchester and say thank god I didn't come here [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] er, because to me it's a filthy city [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] and, even the village, Farnham village, it's all new houses around it now you, it, it, it's all altered, it's, everything's altered. [speaker001:] Do you feel different, did you, do you feel differently about Harlow now in retrospect? [speaker002:] Oh yes I can put up with Harlow now, I'm not er, I'm not over the world, over the, you know... [speaker003:] That's probably cos we were brought [speaker002:] you like it [speaker003:] we were always brought up in the country, you know [speaker001:] Yes [speaker003:] I mean it's, it's, it's expanded so much innit? I mean erm Sumners and all that over there, Staple Tye [speaker001:] Mm. What was the accommodation like in The Chantry and in the four bedroom house in which you spent most of your life, what, what was that, what was that like? [speaker003:] Well it was nice [speaker002:] Biggish house innit? [speaker003:] a big house [speaker002:] There's four bedrooms [speaker003:] an end house [speaker002:] it was quite a good [speaker003:] but [speaker002:] family house, but I mean for space and that sort of [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] thing, but to me it always looked like a barracks [speaker003:] Some of the neighbours are still there, Mr and Mrs is still next door [speaker002:] Next door people who [speaker003:] you know that were in it when they were still brand new [speaker002:] who moved in and just about the same time as we did [speaker003:] Yeah they did when it was new [speaker002:] and they're still there, their family, mm [speaker003:] It's got, it's got a block of flats at the side hadn't it? [speaker002:] And a maisonette [speaker003:] It was an in-house, but it wasn't [speaker002:] Yeah they were building them when we got there weren't they? [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] Was the block of flats, erm, what was that called? [speaker003:] Er well I don't know, isn't that, they're maisonettes, they've got that big eye on the front [LAUGHTER] I don't [] I don't know if you, I don't know if it's still there, I mean [speaker002:] I don't know [speaker003:] it's a dead end road so [speaker002:] it's called night and day isn't it? [speaker003:] The eye is it? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] Is it, it's like a big eye, and it was black one side and white the other side and the black side had a white pupil and the white the other side had a black one [speaker002:] Night and day [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] that was [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] the idea [speaker003:] And it was sort of quite a thing when that was, went up, and ooh it was so awful they had some terrible things in this town didn't they? the statues and things you know, but something, they've got some nice things now, they had that big statue outside the church [speaker002:] That was [speaker003:] that was moved weren't it? In it in the, in the, in a museum or something now isn't it? [speaker002:] They vandalized it it's up the town centre somewhere I think [speaker003:] No it's, I think it was taken away to a museum wasn't it? [speaker001:] I know the one you mean I can't think of the name [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker002:] It's the [speaker001:] a Greek name [speaker003:] Yeah, but I don't know what it was called [speaker002:] child, man or a woman holding a child [speaker003:] Oh yes, that's the one [speaker001:] Oh that one's just outside the library [speaker003:] Oh is it? [speaker002:] I thought it was [speaker001:] Mhm [speaker003:] Getting mixed up [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] but to me all all that was there was Mark Hall House, wasn't there, the, the church and the vicarage and erm Moot House, you know there was, there was nothing else, it was just fields everywhere else [speaker002:] It was all fields [speaker003:] it was really lovely, but then [speaker001:] The, the house that you come from had a bathroom and had all the conveniences [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah [speaker001:] so really you weren't coming into accommodation which was a step [speaker003:] Oh no, well [speaker001:] up for you like a lot of them here? [speaker003:] well, no, probably mum and dad didn't think so, but [speaker002:] No, no you see that [speaker003:] but Bob and I did, I could, I could remember the day we moved in to a hundred and eleven er we'd never, never been upstairs in a house before you see we'd been brought up in a bungalow and we'd never ever been upstairs and the thoughts of going upstairs to bed, you know, was fantastic [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] and, all, all we kept saying on the train coming down Bob and I oh I hope we can slide down the bannisters [speaker002:] Bannisters [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And could you? [speaker003:] No [LAUGHTER] cos they bent round and we had a tie, we did but it was only a little bannister you know, we tried it [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] What do you think was so particular about having stairs? [speaker003:] I don't know, it was just a novelty, we'd never ever, I remember an, an aunt of ours that lived in Plymouth near us, she had a house with an upstairs, but she had a downstairs toilet, so we never got to go upstairs [LAUGHTER] you know [] it's just one of those stupid things I suppose, I, I thought it was great and another attraction was I think one of the main reasons you got us to really want to come to Harlow was the fact that we'd have a television [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] we'd never, like I mean, I can remember in Plymouth dad saying when we get there, erm we'll buy a television, we'll have a television and we didn't know what he was talking about and he said it's a wireless with pictures, you know, and our minds were boggling we just couldn't understand it, and then of course that was another bit of bribery got us to come. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Anything you remember when you first saw a television? [speaker003:] Yes, yeah, when you had one delivered, that's the first time we'd ever seen one wasn't it? [speaker002:] Oh yes we'd sat there [speaker003:] and didn't mum have a new cooker? [speaker002:] Mum had a new cooker yeah [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah [speaker001:] Was it gas or electric? [speaker003:] Gas [speaker002:] Gas it was [speaker003:] Yeah, she was over the moon with it though, wasn't she? [speaker002:] What? [speaker003:] She was over the moon with it [speaker002:] Oh yes, aye [speaker003:] she'd never seen anything like it, but I think we had quite a lot of new furniture didn't we? [speaker002:] Yeah quite a bit [speaker003:] We'd brought some with us [speaker002:] odd things, well of course bed linen, a lot of bedrooms and that to furnish and [speaker001:] Well tell me about the furniture that you brought [speaker002:] Oh we've got [speaker003:] You've still got your suite haven't you? [speaker002:] Pardon? [speaker003:] Still got your three piece suite [speaker002:] We've still got the same and the dining one [speaker003:] and the dining one and the sideboard, yeah [speaker001:] When did you buy it? [speaker002:] Nineteen thirty seven, thirty, thirty seven, bought it in Plymouth and our dining room suite, I'll always remember this, cost twenty eight guineas, not the dining, I'm sorry the three piece suite [speaker003:] Three piece suite [speaker002:] twenty eight guineas, and when we got to Harlow I had it recovered by firm in Sawbridgeworth, twenty eight guineas [speaker003:] To have it recovered, mm [speaker001:] yes the same price [speaker003:] But it [speaker002:] and we still use the same dining table, sideboard, chairs, dining chairs, mind you they, they that kind to of thrown out, reluctant to do it [speaker003:] They wouldn't, no they [speaker002:] we had a lot of affection for it really and, I mean we've had it so long and it was the first furniture we had when we married [speaker003:] You wouldn't do that now, would you? [speaker002:] And er what else [speaker003:] Do you remember when we [speaker002:] we've got a bedroom suite as well apart from the gentleman's wardrobe cos we had them during the blitz and that, burnt all my wardrobe [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] and side of the bed, but we get [speaker001:] In Harlow? [speaker003:] No [speaker002:] No, no this was in Plymouth [speaker001:] Oh [speaker002:] and during the, I was away actually I wasn't there, but er, it was all burnt so I did away with that and we managed to do the bed up somehow [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] it's still going, we've still got the dressing table the big wardrobe [speaker001:] Can you remember what the make of the furniture was? [speaker002:] Well I don't know what make it was but it came from the house, the furnishing company of Union Street, Plymouth [LAUGHTER] I can't remember the shop. [speaker003:] Do you remember when you got rid of one of your armchairs last year or the year before, they bought two new fireside chairs and one of the armchairs nearly had it [speaker002:] We had to get rid of them they were nearly collapsing [speaker003:] and the men came, delivered the new ones and erm, one of them, er oh you said would you take the old one and they said, yeah, fine you know, dad said well it'll take both of you, oh no, no, I can do that, he couldn't even lift it you know cos they were so solid and two of them had a heck of a job didn't they? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] Getting it out and that was just an armchair don't know what they'd do if they had to move the settee, but erm, that's the difference in [speaker002:] Well we had to higher, higher seats really, well these, these are alright but when you get to my age [speaker003:] Can't get in and out of them so easily [speaker002:] have a job getting out of them and er you know more or less the higher chair's [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] better for us [speaker001:] And the dining room suite is it oak? [speaker002:] Oh it's veneered, veneered oak [speaker001:] Mm [speaker002:] it's not er solid oak, it's veneered, mm, it's oak yeah [speaker001:] And when you came to Harlow you said that you bought some new furniture [speaker002:] Yeah we bought a new bedroom suite I think that's about the first thing [speaker003:] I had a new bedroom suite didn't I? [speaker002:] Oh yes [speaker003:] and that cos when I got married I took it with me didn't I? [speaker002:] That's right [speaker001:] Do you still have it? [speaker002:] And then my mother and father came down in the four bed when we moved to ninety five in the four bedroom yes, they brought their bedroom suite down with them. [speaker001:] And did you buy the bedroom suite in Harlow? [speaker002:] Erm, just trying to think where we bought it [speaker001:] Sheratons? [speaker003:] Er what Sheratons in the Stow? No I bought my dining room suite, this Ercol dining room suite in there, I've still got it, yeah that was a long... Oh yeah the shops have changed quite a lot in the The Stow haven't they? [speaker002:] Yes when we came of course the Stow was er you know [speaker003:] Yeah it was just a little [speaker002:] had a little trees weren't there to make The Stow. We thought it was quite something when we got the shops weren't it? [speaker003:] I remember it happening, but I can't remember somebody came to open it, did somebody come to open The Stow you know [speaker002:] Forget now somebody came to open I remember there were invitations given out to go to it, sherry party, I had an invitation but I didn't go for some reason [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] I was working or something, but erm, two of Mr went, you know that neighbour of mine [speaker003:] Mm [speaker001:] So when you bought the bedroom suite, erm, can you remember if erm, what the purchase tax was on it then? [speaker002:] Oh I couldn't, I'm sorry [speaker001:] Can you remember, it, obviously it wasn't rationing any more, there wasn't utility [speaker002:] No, no [speaker001:] any more at that time was there? [speaker002:] No I think utility had more or less finished then [speaker001:] It finished at the end of fifty two [speaker003:] Yeah, I remember, I remember having a ration book for sweets [speaker001:] That went on for quite a long time [speaker002:] Oh yes, oh yeah, oh yeah [speaker001:] but the actual rationing on furniture ended, at the end of nineteen fifty two but they brought in something called schedule T [speaker002:] We must of bought that suite before then [speaker003:] Before then, yes, we must of bought it when we moved in cos I, I mean I wasn't without a bed [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] We did, we bought it as soon as we moved in because er [speaker001:] You must of had [speaker003:] Must of had one straight away, yeah [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] you, I'd of told you mum should of come up, she wouldn't come would she? [speaker002:] She'd probably remember [speaker003:] She'd remember things like that [speaker002:] I tell you [speaker001:] yes I'm very interested in that particular period just before, just, when you get the after maturity of when they had this strange very schedule D and er the tax, the purchase tax [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] Mm [speaker001:] and all that sort of thing and how it affected people buying furniture because there was a very high luxury tax [speaker002:] That's right [speaker001:] highly expensive furniture [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] sixty six and two thirds [speaker002:] Yeah but the single bedroom suite I remember that [speaker003:] I wouldn't know that... [speaker001:] And you can't remember where you bought it? [speaker002:] It must of been... fifty one, June [speaker003:] I bet mum's still got the bill somewhere [speaker002:] it must of been at the end in the autumn at, at least of fifty one [speaker003:] I wouldn't be a bit surprised, I'll try and find out for you [speaker002:] I wonder if I know [speaker003:] sixty one weren't they? [speaker002:] Mm, mm [speaker003:] You know and the stuff we had that, cos we've changed it all. [speaker001:] Can you tell me about the light fittings that you bought when you first got married. [speaker003:] I'm trying to think I got, oh god, that was Pennymead cos we lived with mum and dad for three months until we got a maisonette in Pennymead [speaker002:] Mm, mm [speaker003:] erm, I can remember the three piece suite it was that uncut moquette stuff, you don't see it now do you? It was grey and, and mustard, it sounds revolting but we, we were a bit, I suppose it was the time we had a purple carpet, we had an orange wall, do you remember that living room? [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] You needed sunglasses to go in it, erm oh you didn't really actually it looked, it looked alright but it was very modern, my mum and dad didn't think it was up to much [LAUGHTER] you know [] we thought it was great. [speaker001:] Why did you cho why did you want to have modern? [speaker003:] Well I don't know it's just what we liked at the time you know, we liked anything that was considered a bit way out then, you know [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] and we had er, I mean we had a bright orange swivel chair and when that came out it was called the Orbit or something, something really weird and it had a big back on it and we thought it was great I mean, I think it's awful now, some of the things we had, I'll have to try and find some photographs cos I've got a case full of photographs upstairs [speaker002:] Yeah I've got a lot of [speaker003:] I've got lots of them inside that maisonette you know when [speaker001:] That would interest me very much [speaker003:] with my er eldest son's nearly nineteen [speaker002:] Oh yes, you've got those [speaker003:] cos when he was a baby we took loads of photographs inside. [speaker001:] And you said that you had an orange wall, only one orange wall? [speaker003:] On one orange wall, yeah [speaker001:] Which wall was it? [speaker003:] I can't remember what was on, it was a plain, well, we, we had er french windows with a balcony, it was an upstairs maisonette and the wall that end was orange and my father-in- law made us the cocktail bar, do you remember that cocktail bar [speaker002:] That's right, yeah [speaker003:] you made us with white quilting on the front, oh it sounds awful now, but [speaker002:] did, got rid of that about a year, twelve, eighteen months ago [speaker003:] Oh and I had sort of marble on the, formica marble contact, that contact stuff on top, purple carpet, er mustard and grey suite, that was an odd shape that suite wasn't it? It had sort of round chairs [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] you know those round chairs with, everything had those legs, those screw on legs, everything the coffee table didn't it? The suite, everything had screw on legs and we bought erm a radiogram, that was a Pye, beautiful thing it was, it was ever so expensive then, I might even have the bill for that somewhere, we bought that at the town centre in Laytoners was it? Erm [speaker002:] Yeah, Laytoners [speaker003:] that was my twenty first birthday we bought that on, so that was before Gary was born and er, that had black screw on legs as well, the televisions had black screw, oh we didn't have a television we had a second hand television about a year after we were married and I remember Coronation Street starting, that started about when we got married. [speaker001:] What year did you get married in? [speaker003:] Nineteen sixty one, er, our anniversary was a few weeks ago, twenty one years we've been married, but er [speaker002:] Have you er [speaker003:] we were, we were furniture made, you know, all we thought about was the home and in fact once we couldn't afford any wall paper we were decorating so George painted the wall white and we got saucepan lids, and even the dustbin lid and with er, er, a black pen, felt type pen I suppose although felt pens weren't out then [speaker002:] I don't know that [speaker003:] I don't think but that sort of thing, but he drew black circles and triangles all over this white wall it looked, I've got a photograph of that [speaker001:] Was that [speaker003:] that looked fantastic and everyone said oh god he's so artistic you know and he's a butcher [LAUGHTER] he wasn't really but we just used to sit down and think of all these ideas you know [speaker001:] Where did you get these ideas from? [speaker003:] Well they, er nowhere, we didn't get them from anywhere we just used to think them up and everyone thought we were potty didn't they? [speaker002:] I bet John liked it [speaker003:] John, George's brother [speaker002:] George's brother, yeah, he's quite a bit artistic ain't he? [speaker003:] Yeah, well I think George is actually [speaker002:] George is [speaker003:] I mean when he does his window displays you've never seen anything like it, you know, [LAUGHTER] so, I think he's got quite er, he's quite good at things like that, but erm, we've tamed down a bit now. [speaker001:] So you were considered daring were you? [speaker003:] Oh yeah, yeah, where the furniture was concerned yeah, we only liked it if people came in and said oh my god what have you done now, [LAUGHTER] you know []. [speaker001:] What kind of curtains did you have? [speaker003:] Oh, I, I can remember when fibreglass curtains first came out we bought some of those terrible things they just went in holes, you know if you touched them too much they just went in holes. [speaker001:] They were brittle? [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] and if you washed them you mustn't put clothes pegs in them cos the pegs would make holes in them [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] fancy having stuff like that [speaker001:] Was it a sheer or a solid material this fibreglass? [speaker003:] I don't know what you mean [speaker001:] Was it like a see through, like a net kind of curtain, no [speaker003:] Oh no, no, no it's the big curtains, I think one we had great big green leaves on [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] do you remember those? [speaker002:] Terrible [speaker003:] Well I liked them when we bought them [speaker002:] Mum and I used to go in and say why it looks alright and when we got outside [speaker003:] Ain't it awful [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] ain't it awful [speaker003:] living with that and then when we got rid of that purple carpet [speaker002:] We got [speaker003:] we brought a bright orange carpet, do you remember that bright orange er, when that first came out? With the, with the erm that big white cat on it, what make was that? They used to advertise it with a big white fluffy cat [speaker001:] Not Sue and Lord [speaker003:] Oh it might of been [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] don't know, but we had this bright orange carpet, mind you even we couldn't live with that for too long. [speaker001:] So that was after the purple carpet? [speaker003:] Yeah... oh we loved all the gold furniture and, that's all we used to do was walk round looking at furniture and things [speaker001:] Where did you buy the furniture? [speaker003:] Oh mainly in Harlow [speaker001:] Mm, mm [speaker003:] I can remember we went to erm, oh cos we moved out of Harlow didn't we when Nick was eleven months old so that's about fifteen years ago and lived in Hatfield for three years, so, and we used to go to Welwyn Department Store then and, and look at stuff. I can remember one standard lamp we had, it was really weird and people used to say that'll be alright if you were landing a plane [LAUGHTER] cos it had spotlights, I mean now, they, erm, in fact you can still buy the same sort of thing, but then it was so way out [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] it had sort of round shade with a bulb and the bu but it looked like an eye you know because the bulb came out and you moved these three things around, you can still buy them now, but er, then they were a bit way out. [speaker001:] And this was when you were living in Hatfield? [speaker003:] Yes [speaker001:] So that would of been [speaker003:] that would be about fifteen years ago [speaker001:] Yes, nineteen sixty eight or so [speaker003:] Mm [speaker002:] A very nice house in Hatfield weren't it? [speaker003:] Yeah, it was a lovely house yeah but we wanted to come back to Harlow you see, so... we did like, well we always liked Harlow, really the only reason we went to erm er Hatfield was the fact that Harlow Council no way would move us out of that maisonette, we had two boys and we lived upstairs and Gary had all sorts of accidents on those stairs, in fact we all had because they were outside, erm so in the winter they iced up [speaker001:] Mm [speaker003:] concrete stairs and, George nearly killed himself on them one morning, but er, and we tried everything to get out of there you know, no one would exchange a two bedroom maisonette for a house and of course I longed for a garden, but, and er George got a job in Hatfield and they offered this three bedroom house The Commission for The New Town, rent was cheaper than here, so we moved over there, but er, as I say we were only there two, three years and we came back again, we were over here, we used to come over here three times a week, when we lived there didn't we? [speaker002:] Mm, mm... [speaker003:] So... we got back to Harlow again [LAUGHTER]... That wallpaper but erm what was it called again Francis Henry's in this style [speaker002:] Yeah [speaker003:] erm, cos Mary that still works in there she, her husband worked for either Mr Henry, I can't remember his name, the man that owned it, and I think, I think perhaps they were brothers or something, she, her husband owns it now it's Freyers or something now [speaker002:] Yeah, do it yourself there's new [speaker003:] yeah, but we used to buy all our wallpaper [speaker001:] At The Stow? [speaker003:] in there, yeah [speaker002:] They use to sell all the paper and all that business then [speaker003:] to do erm wallpaper and we, we loved and wallpaper and you, is there, you couldn't see the book anywhere, er probably in London you could, but erm round here you couldn't, but they had the book down here. [speaker001:] Er how did you know about it? [speaker003:] Well only because we'd seen it in the shop [speaker001:] From the shop [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] And it was only in [speaker003:] Well Dave worked in there, George's friend worked in there as well, yes it was, it was expensive wallpaper for then, it was so way out I mean we had red tartan wallpaper in the bathroom, you know you just don't see, er actually they'd be really nice designs now, you just don't see them now and we had er, a bright blue wallpaper that had big circles on it, do you remember that one? [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] That cost us a fortune [LAUGHTER] well we thought so then [speaker002:] At that time [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] Was that in the living room? [speaker003:] Yeah, I'd have to try and er see if I've got any of those bills anywhere, I know that that book's upstairs cos erm, we did that cupboard out the other day and I found all the photographs all our old photographs in a box, but the box had fallen to bits, so [speaker002:] Mm [speaker003:] I'd put them all in an old suitcase and erm, cos I couldn't just put them in there I had to have a look, they're sentimental and that book was in there so I can definitely get you that, but I wouldn't go up in the loft I'm afraid, I'm so scared of creepy crawlies [LAUGHTER] so er, you know, if you, if you want to come back some time when my husband's here... I mean he can tell you more about the wallpaper and decorating, and I'll get him to get that out. [speaker001:] Can you remember what kind of paint you used? [speaker003:] Oh no, he'll tell you that [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker003:] I wasn't allowed to touch [speaker001:] But did you, did [speaker003:] a paint brush I tried [speaker001:] No [speaker003:] painting the kitchen once and I got into so much trouble it took him so long to rub it all off and start again, he made me promise I'd never touch a paint brush again [LAUGHTER] but he I mean, he would definitely be able to tell you what paint he used and [speaker001:] Mm, mm because there was a change over to the emulsion wasn't there? [speaker003:] Yeah, yeah

[speaker001:] Shall we start from the beginning? [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] Right, mm, completely fresh start? [speaker002:] Yes please. [speaker001:] I was born in Wapping in the year nineteen hundred and six, my father was a docker, one of my earliest recollections is of the dock strike of nineteen hundred and eleven, in which I played a part lining up at the soup kitchens to get soup for the family. My father died when I was quite young and at ten years of age I went into a poor old orphanage where I stayed four years. I came out of the orphanage to go and live with my mother and I found myself one of the family of six living in one room, the house was a four roomed house plus a scullery. Each room was occupied by a separate family, there was one cold water tap for the whole of the four families and one outside toilet. Conditions such as those were quite common to many thousands of people and I think it was those conditions which helped to formulate and develop my political thinking. When I was eighteen I came in contact with the Catholic Crusade which was a rather left wing Christian Socialist Organization and I found that their attitude to problems contained the answers for which I had been searching for a good many years... tell me when you want me to raise something. [speaker002:] Yeah, I'd like you to tell me about erm, what the house was that you left before you came to Harlow and why you came to Harlow? [speaker001:] Yes, [cough] if we skip all the intermediate years with, after the war I came back from the army to find we'd been bombed out and were living in requisition accommodation, after a time, the, we were moved into a new flat over some shops. My wife was working for Cossors the electronic company and they moved to Harlow and er, it, in order for her to retain her job, we had to move to Harlow as well. This proved very difficult because, between the time of the decision being taken to move Cossors to Harlow and the time that my wife, my wife's department actually went, the Development Corporation had changed their policy and would not have married women as tenants. This resulted in a great deal of correspondence between myself and the Development Corporation and at the end of it I told my wife the best thing to do was to hand her notice in as there was no chance of us ever getting a house in Harlow, fortunately her services were much more seriously in demand then we imagined and the company nominated us for one, a house which is allocated to one of their executives, the house that we're living in now and have lived in ever since nineteen sixty three. The vast difference between Stroud Green Road, Islington and Harlow. For one thing Harlow is the sort of town which I'd been agitating for both before and after the war... whenever I was speaking on behalf of the Labour Party both at street corners and at public meetings on the type of life we vis envisaged for a normal person in the land. To leave Islington, to leave Stroud Green Road, to leave a flat which was over a shop overlooking a main shopping centre, overlooking a completely noisy main through road to come to Harlow was a difference between chalk and cheese. The accommodation differed in, in one respect and that, that was that in the flat we were on one floor, we had one bedroom, we moved into a house with two toilets separate bathroom and three bedrooms, which enabled us to spread our furniture around, enabled us to have visitors to receive members of the family. I think this is one of the essentials in Harlow and something that people should not forget, that is that, although there is a great deal of criticism possibly of the standard of building that went on over the years of the Development Corporation, compared with what most people came from, there was a very great elevation both in quality and in ideas. Perhaps today the general public take too much for granted, the, as a local Councillor I have to interview many people who come to me with housing problems, to be as patient as one can is essential as a politician, but after the complainant has gone, one is very conscious of the fact that their problem is so minute it is hardly worth mentioning. But nevertheless that's human nature and perhaps it's also a reason why life should not stand still, whatever progress we make both in housing and in quality of housing and the quality of life, once people are used to that, to that they expect more and this is what progress, what forward thinking is all about. [speaker002:] Could you tell me about the house, of which you were bombed out? Was it, were you married at the time? [speaker001:] Yes... I think that over the course of our married life we had a number of moves for various reasons, generally to improve the accommodation, erm as standard of life increased so the desire to have a better house to live in or rather in those days a house was out of the question, we generally had rooms in a house, erm, they, the flat for instance that we were bombed out from was a basement flat, erm according to the estate agents it was a garden flat, erm and it meant that you had access to the front garden and the back garden, but as for being a garden flat it was below the level of the garden in the front and at the back it was on the level with the erm green grass at the back of the house, it was also along side of the trolley bus depot, so there it was considerably noisy, nevertheless it was a self contained flat, the first one we'd had, no the second one we'd had and we were perfectly happy there although of course it did have minor difficulties, the fact that you used the front door with people who had flats on the other remaining three floors, but nevertheless it did involve you in a certain amount of community living, you were aware of your neighbours, you had to be very conscious of them and they were very conscious of you. That I think perhaps is one of the striking differences between that and living in a house in Harlow, where you may or may not know your immediate neighbours. Perhaps you know them over the garden wall to speak to you, you might even know their children by name and you know their christian name, but beyond that I think it's true to say, even making allowance of generation gaps that you don't know your neighbours in the same way that you knew your neighbours in London. [speaker002:] Whereabouts was the basement flat, was it in Islington [speaker001:] No, that was in Islington but it was in the district called Holloway [speaker002:] Oh yes I know it well [speaker001:] Mm Penventon Gardens [speaker002:] Penventon Gardens, is the hou oh of course it's not there [speaker001:] It's not there, mm, yeah [speaker002:] if it was bombed out yes [speaker004:] You were in the army weren't you? [speaker001:] Oh I was yes, I was [speaker004:] Army [speaker001:] I was enjoying life in the army while my wife was enjoying the bombing. [LAUGHTER] She was actually in the house when the bomb dropped on the other side of the road and she was flung down two flights of stairs and the piano on the other side of the room here bears the scars of the bombing. [speaker004:] And that curtain went from the window right across the room and pinned itself into the piano, pinned the curtains into the piano. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And it also managed to chip some of the woodwork, curious to think that I was offered as war damage compensation five pounds to re-case the piano, you couldn't of had it repolished for five pounds, but thinking was working class people shouldn't have pianos, I'm certain that was at the back of, of the gentleman whose job it was to evaluate war damage, he certainly raised his eyebrows every time we told him, what either a piece of furniture or crockery or cutlery which had been destroyed had cost and he was so foolish after er the house had been almost flattened as de demand bills as proof of evidence that your figures were correct... [speaker002:] Mm, so when you left your, when you came back you said that you went into a requisition property [speaker001:] Yes, erm, we found ourselves in, rather to go back. After the bombing my wife was housed with an with another family [speaker004:] Who had been bombed [speaker001:] in the top flat, they, they were rehoused in a flat in a block of mansion flats and when I came out of the army this was the accommodation I found available, er for me and I objected strongly and after a great deal of fuss erm the Islington Borough Council's Housing Department found us rooms on the first floor in a Victoria Victorian villa in Penventon Gardens, which erm, were comfortable [speaker004:] Not Penventon Gardens [speaker001:] Er not erm [speaker004:] was that [speaker001:] Sunnyside Road [speaker004:] Sunnyside Road [speaker001:] Sunnyside Road Sunnyside Road, and erm, it were... it was good accommodation we had our own bathroom and toilet er but again accommodation was cramped, we had no spare room [speaker004:] And we weren't proud, there was people came [speaker001:] and er the people in the flat above us had to pass our door to get to them in the same way that we had to pass the people, tenants below doors to get to their accommodation. Erm from there we went into this purpose built flat above a grocers shop, it was meant for the manager of the grocers shop, but he had better sense and so the flat became available for letting to the Borough Council who at the insistence of the owners of the house we were in, erm, were anxious to get their property back and so we found ourselves in a brand new flat, the first tenants, although this was not very highly to be recommended, you approached your flat up er stone staircase, er from the outside so you exposed to the elements er you then walked across the roof, flat roof over the shops until you came to your flat door, erm, Islington at that time was just beginning the, to see the influx of immigrants from the colonies as they were in those days and er, they in turn created much heavier demand on what little vacant property there was, so that the district rapidly deteriorated and... for many people who were not in the fortunate position that we were found it necessary or desirable to leave because they were sharing rooms or sharing houses with people whose ways of life were different from theirs and this is something I think that housing authorities learnt to appreciate over the years that the differences between people's ways of life are one of the major causes of social distress. [speaker002:] What year was that when you moved into erm Sunnyside Road? [speaker001:] We moved into Sunnyside Road in nineteen forty five and we moved into erm Stroud Green Road [speaker004:] Fifty three [speaker001:] somewhere about nineteen fifty three, yes [speaker004:] in our town house [speaker001:] and we left Sunnyside Road in sixty three to come to Harlow. [speaker002:] So you've only been in Harlow since nineteen sixty three? [speaker001:] Twenty years yes [speaker004:] Yes [speaker001:] it'll be twenty years next March [speaker002:] Mhm. Could you explain to me a little bit more when you said that erm a married woman couldn't be a tenant. [speaker001:] Yes, erm, when Harlow was designed, it was appreciated that its, the, its purpose was to house workers in the factories and the offices and also to act as an overspill from London, and in nineteen sixty when Cossors were bringing their workers by the hundreds [speaker004:] Fifty eight [speaker001:] Fifty eight was it? When, in nineteen fifty eight when Co Cossors were bringing, started bringing their workers here the Development Corporation were very anxious to let houses and, so that it, it didn't matter whether the worker was male or female, he or she was accepted as a tenant, by the time we came to move in Harlow in nineteen sixty three the Development Corporation reneged on its promise to house my wife. At that time erm, I was a commercial traveller and Harlow was part of my district and they reluctantly accepted the fact that because I was a commercial traveller working in Harlow that I actually did work in Harlow which was stretching a point, but I really think that the Development Corporation's officials were getting a little tired of my being able to talk their own language and to write letters in the same vein as they could write, they weren't used to this, and, at any rate, as I said earlier we got here. [speaker004:] We were offered some awful things though, in the first place [speaker001:] Erm, I've always been interested in housing and it did appear to me that however delightful Harlow may be, when the architects were designing properties, they designed a property without any consideration for the people who were to live in them. We were offered a flat, which would of mea if we'd of accepted it would of meant we would have to of sold every stick of furniture because the rooms were not large enough [speaker002:] Can you tell me the name of the block of flats or the address of it? [speaker001:] That was er a flat in Plumtree, we were offered a flat on the first floor and when we examined the kitchen it was extremely obvious to me that our gas cooker wouldn't fit in the, the place where it was designed to fit, when I asked where do we put the washing machine I was informed that most tenants kept the washing machine on the balcony, when I said well where do we put the refrigerator, well most people keep the refrigerator either in the hall or, or rather not a hall it was a passageway, in the passageway or in the living room, now it does seem to me with hindsight that if that's planning I, to use an old fashion London phrase, I'm a Dutchman. [speaker002:] Was the living room a com a com combined sitting and dining room? [speaker001:] Combined everything except bedroom, there was one separate bedroom [speaker002:] Only one bedroom? [speaker001:] Yes... erm, it was very obvious from the word go that they didn't want us. [speaker004:] It was for a single person really wasn't it there? [speaker001:] Well I would of thought so, although today it must be admitted that single people, don't get offered one bedroom flats, but then in those days there wasn't the shortage of accommodation that there is today... [speaker004:] Next question [speaker002:] Erm, could you tell me erm something about how you felt about the change of coming to this house, you know whether you enjoyed it? [speaker001:] Well I suppose at the, one of the best things, best examples of the difference was that my wife when she saw this house, knew that it was a house in which she could be happy, in which her tastes and, could spread themselves, erm rather than her tastes having to be curtailed by lack of space and lack of accommodation, erm, the fact that I had a garage which was essential er next to my house instead of some er quarter or twenty minutes' walk away from where I lived as happened in London also made a terrific difference to comfort, erm the fact that there was a garden instead of a few windowboxes and a couple of tubs, all these things I think made one appreciate the fact that you'd come, not only into a new town, but into a new way of life... probably the fact that we had a staircase inside the house, which was the first time that we'd had a staircase between our bedrooms and our living rooms [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] so in all purp in, in always, the fact that you'd come into this house made one realize that there'd been a distinct change in one's circumstances. [speaker002:] And did you feel that it affected your lifestyle? That you could do, you mention that you could now entertain [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] your friends [speaker001:] well we always had entertained friends but we'd never been in a position to put them up so that erm... most of our friendly visits were from people who didn't live very far from us, it meant that families, nieces, nephews etcetera were difficult to accommodate because they had to sleep on a couch or a settee in the living room with all its diff difficulties, especially when it meant in the morning for breakfast you had to get them up and dressed before you could start thinking about breakfast, and I think that those sort of things are things that er people ought to take into consideration when thinking about new housing. One of the beefs I have about accommodation for elderly people is the fact that by, that the purpose built, very excellent, bungalows and flats for elderly citizens are restricted to one bedroom which, to which but is by government decree to keep the cost down, but it does seem to me to be very heartless because elderly people's children are unable to come and stay with them except to the great deal of discomfort and perhaps as society grows a little more considerate for the fact that the percentage of elderly people will get even greater as the years go on, then they should make allowance and provide them for the facilities to enable them to be visited by their children and grandchildren. [speaker002:] Did you erm leave family behind when you came away from London? [speaker001:] No we never had a family so we were entirely foot free and foot loose. [speaker002:] But apart from children I meant sisters or brothers [speaker001:] Oh yes [speaker002:] or parents or [speaker001:] yes, erm my wife came from the Midlands, from Coventry and... her family roots were in Coventry at the Midlands, in fact there she still has numerous nieces and nephews and great nephews and great nieces there to this day, my with the exception of a sister who moved, who, to Basildon, erm I have two brothers and er they still live in London, still live in East Ham, er the distance is not too great erm and, but obviously as we get older the amount of visiting we do will be constricted by the difficulties of getting from Harlow to East Ham especially when one is compelled to stop driving a motor car... [speaker002:] Did you bring furniture with you when like when you moved into Harlow? [speaker001:] Oh yes, yes, we, the... we had an extremely large rooms, I don't know went, what, what, what went wrong the architect but we had two enormous rooms which could of been quite easily divided into three, but we could of had two bedrooms instead of one and the conse [speaker004:] Er, sorry to interrupt you are you speaking about this house? [speaker001:] No, the flat [speaker004:] The flat, right [speaker001:] the flat in, in London, the flat we came from and so we had accumulated a little more furniture than one would usually have in two rooms and the kitchen and we got here and were allowed to spread ourselves, if there's one criticism that one could say about this house, is that the... size of the rooms... confines you to what you put in them, they're square, that the, the division between the living room and the dining room is through a pair of glass doors, where perhaps that could of been arranged with either sliding doors or some other feature so as not to separate it yet again into two square boxes... and erm... [speaker002:] Are you in favour of open plan? [speaker001:] er, it depends on one's own tastes, I personally don't like the open planned that I've seen in very modern houses where, erm I, I don't quite know how to express it but it does seem to me odd to be on one floor level and then two feet up you're on another level and er, that's one aspect of the open plan that doesn't appeal to me and I don't quite understand why it's necessary to have everything that's going on in one room with pieces of furniture designed to act as barriers between the different functions or purposes for which you give parts of the room. [speaker002:] So how do you [cough] how do you see the ideal way of arranging a room? [speaker001:] The ideal way, way of arranging a room as I see it would be that you could have your separate rooms but have sliding doors, after all there's nothing new in sliding doors, er, but doors opening and closing erm are restrictive, that's only my own personal view, my wife doesn't necessarily, necessarily share that view... ideally if I was planning a house, the main room the main living room would be much larger than the one we live in, it would certainly be a different shape, erm when we had our golden wedding erm our visitors were so numerous that they were standing shoulder to shoulder in these two rooms and the kitchen whereas if it had been a reasonably designed house maybe we could of spread them around a little more, but they're minor, minor defects that are not really serious. I think today that if someone was designing a house one would incorporate all the modern additions which have suddenly become fashionable such as double porches, doubleglazing and er patio windows, I think that these things are perhaps a development from, in the same way as this house is a development from the rooms and the flats we lived in in London so that the modern conceptions of the things I've mentioned could be incorporated as normal in the house certainly would be cheaper to incorporate them when building the house than adding them on. [speaker002:] When was this house built? [speaker001:] Well I don't know the exact date but I believe this house is some thirty years old, so it was built about nineteen fifty three, fifty two, fifty three [speaker002:] Does it have central heating? Does it have central heating? [speaker001:] No it has central heating now, but it didn't when we moved in. [speaker002:] Did you own the house? [speaker001:] No... [speaker002:] Erm, did the Council put the central heating in? [speaker001:] Council put the central heating in when we got... advanced in years and when it became necessary in the doctor's opinion for me to have central heating because I had a heart complaint. [speaker002:] So it's, the, the Council doesn't install central heating as a matter of course only if it's a special case? [speaker001:] The Council has a policy now of bringing all its properties up to date, but priority because they're, bringing the houses up to date will take some eight years, priority is given to elderly citizens and people with medical needs. [speaker002:] Do you like the orientation of the house? Do you feel that it's pointing the right way, bringing the sun in through the right windows at the right time of day?... [speaker001:] That's a little difficult to answer, if you're watching television, the sun can be a nuisance [speaker002:] Yes of course [speaker001:] when it comes in, pours in those, the house faces west er consequently although it's very pleasant in the afternoon and evenings when you're not watching television erm, it has its drawbacks on the other hand the garden is most unfortunately orientated... alright? I think that's a minor problem but perhaps architects now pay a little more attention to and that is that, in the afternoon when you like to sit in the evening when you like to sit in the garden in the sunshine you are sitting in the shadow because the house er is between the sun and the garden... [speaker002:] I can't think of any more questions for the moment [speaker001:] Alright... [speaker002:] So do you think I could ask you something about what you please tell [speaker001:] No we're alright [speaker002:] please tell me when you want me to go because [speaker001:] Yeah [speaker002:] if I over st don't let me over stay [speaker001:] No, no, no, no. [speaker002:] Er I liked to ask you erm about if you, if you think that Harlow lives up to the ideal of the New Town?... [speaker001:] It could be asked what is disappointing about Harlow, and I suppose that the first thing that strikes one is the design fault so far is the road work, the road network is concerned and er, and the inadequacy of the road, for roads for modern traffic. Very obviously when this town was designed and laid out and nobody foresaw the growth of the private motor car, er today private motor car is accepted, but in a town which was built perhaps the idea that one in twenty would own a motor car and we're now faced with the probably... one in three have a motor car, we're now faced with a problem which can only detract from life in the town, also the fact that huge lorries are passing through what were envisaged as quiet residential neighbourhoods with a consequent breaking of curbs and of paving stones where the lorries are compelled to mount the pavings in order to get round parked cars and things of that nature it detracts from the life in Harlow I do, I think a considerable extent, erm, the other factor is that there's become a lack of pride in the town by the people who live in it, this is seen from the amount of rubbish, and refuse that is dropped from the minor vandalism that goes on the graffiti, er particularly in underpasses where people are walking to the town centre and that, those are the things where the town has lost its way, when we first came here you never saw bits of paper and packages from sweets and cigarettes and things, perhaps maybe because the package industry has developed over the years and that er... whereas whenever we had responsibility for taking a small child out, if it had sweets it was encouraged to put the wrappings in its pocket until it got home, now of course it's encouraged to drop it just where it wants to and er this not only applies to children, some of the worst culprits are the adults who leave the, leave the public houses with a can of beer to drink on the way home and drop it just when they've finished the last drop of beer or the fish and chip paper's just dropped. I think this is detracting, I think it's inconsiderate, it certainly shows a lack of respect for one's neighbours or indeed for the town one lives in and yet very often I'm fully aware of the fact that the people who do the dropping are the first to complain that the Council doesn't keep the town clean. [speaker002:] What, do you think that there's any connection between what you mentioned before about when you claimed for er bomb damage erm that working class people about being, supposed to have a piano, do you think there's a connection between that sort of idea and the idea of people that lived in Harlow in Council houses shouldn't have cars? [speaker001:] No, I don't think that had a great deal to do with it, erm it was question that when the town was designed... the, there hadn't been this sudden burst in living standards. If you compare when we first came to Harlow, which is only twenty years ago, the possession of a television set, erm was only just becoming the normal thing [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] the possession of the motor car was just becoming the norm, but the town had been designed fifteen years earlier... [speaker002:] And what do you think of the idea of ways that the, that the way the house types were graded, the fact that some of them were in fact meant to be executive or managerial classes and others were meant to be for people with less income, do you think that this is again recreating this sort of class system within the planning of the town? [speaker001:] I think that what we've got is the acceptance by the designers and the planners of the class system that they knew [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] they had no vision of a classless society, erm, personally while I've no desire to see uniformity, I see no earthly reason why some people because they have a lower income should be compelled to live in inferior and perhaps crowded conditions, whereas the man with five or six or seven times their income can choose a larger house in a much more delightful district and I think it is things like that that make the difference between what I as a young socialist agitator was advocating and what we find today. I find too that circumstances compel a socialist Council like Harlow to be constrained and constricted when building, there are too many laws and regulations which are based on the fact that, for instance, today's government thinks that people who rent houses are second class citizens. [speaker002:] Can you give an example... when you say that the law is designed? [speaker001:] Yes, erm, let us take one little factor, this question of the agitating the media and the, today, and that is the reduction in interest charges. Now when interest charges fall, the person who is buying the house benefits from the reduction in interest charges, but the person who is renting a house in local authority and then in this case nobody, nobody else in Harlow to rent it from, is faced with, not with a decreased monthly rental, but with an ever increasing one because as more and more Council houses are sold the cost of maintaining that there, the superstructure of the town, the cost of maintaining Council houses goes on increasing and so the burden is laid on the tenants and the tenant can find, will find himself that pound for pound increasing his rent while the house owner is decreasing his mortgage charges and at the end of the day the tenant is paying increased rent, increased rate and with nothing to show for it, erm, I've always been in favour of a sale, of, of property er owner occupiers, but not at the expense of the people who cannot afford to be owner occupiers, ah, to my mind, the present housing system is designed to maintain the existing class structure because even with the large discounts that one gets and nobody's ever yet convinced me that why you should get a discount because you buy a Council house, but if you buy one privately owned you can't get a discount and it, there's, this, this is so utter nonsense, but it is throwing a much heavier burden every time a house is sold on the remaining houses which are for rent, and so you that, although the idea is to make it a classless this society with more and more people owning their own properties the mo the mere fact that the majority of people in the town cannot afford to buy even the reduced priced Council house, is an example that the, the system, the class system a division by income still exists. [speaker002:] Yeah... may I ask Mrs some more questions? Would you mind answering some questions? [speaker001:] Well she's a bit shy, but I'll help her. [speaker002:] I wanted to ask you about the furniture. Can you hold it, if you just hold it about, like that, yes. Erm, do you mind answering some questions about your furniture? [speaker004:] Oh, well, what do you want to know? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Erm, you seem to like modern furniture [speaker004:] Yes, yes [speaker002:] Why did you choose modern furniture? [speaker004:] Well

[Hugh:] Number twenty two You er you need to tell the assembly thank you. [Mr Malloch:] one one four nine... Moderator... is it possible or legal at all to insert a completely new twenty two?... Simply in light of the... the vote that we've just been held?... I'd like simply to ask the assembly... to simply reaffirm that we are indeed a christian church, a christian trinitarian church... to father son and holy ghost, the gods whom we adore... why do we sing this every time if there are a number of members in this assembly who are no longer able to completely agree with such a sentiment Moderator? I move that the [Hugh:] Mr... Mr I think it's implicit in our own nature and in our own character and a known fact that we are constituted here as a general assembly and we indeed ascribe to that and I don't think we need to affirm it on a lower level of what is in fact the very standard of our existence here... er in a general assembly. I can assure you of that. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] Number twenty two... approved. Number twenty three... thank you... Yes Bishop... please come forward. I'm delighted to welcome you... I'm sure you'll be at home with one accord being sung on Sunday night.... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] one two eight nine. I have arrived, I have been given... a number by the Church of Scotland [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [speaker004:] I might suggest that you too have arrived, I have answered your roll call. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker004:] And indeed it's a sign of the times that I speak not with a mitre metaphorically upon my head but perhaps the glengarry of the convenorship of the Central Council of ACTS and therefore I am in part your servant here. And it really is to... to promote... a couple of the initiatives of your instrument that I stand here.... First of all I would like to... bring to your attention the regional ecumenical teams. At every stage of the interchurch process we were hearing voices saying to us... it is not sufficient that there should be... fellowship, agreement, companionship, cooperation at the highest levels but it had to be found at every level, it had to be found at grass roots level. And the meeting of the ACTS'Central Council has recently had a report from its local and regional unity... er committee... proposing that a network of regional ecumenical teams should be established throughout Scotland to further the cooperation and joint commitment of congregations and church members in each area.... This proposal was enthusiastically approved by the Central Council of ACTS and has been well received by member churches which are appointing local representatives for each of the forty six areas. These areas as you might... recognize, are the presbytery areas of Scotland... as these areas seem to be most closely allied to natural and civic boundaries.... Now the Presbyterian Church as the Church of Scotland enjoys a unique place in Scottish life... and its structures... it has a privileged place but I would suggest to you it has also therefore... a number of responsibilities and one, I would suggest in this case, is to try and ensure that these local regional teams are in place. I think it would be most appropriate for the local representatives of the Church of Scotland, since the areas are presbyteries, to take the initiative or to give that encouragement without which these... local teams will not find a place.... The second thing that I would like to recommend to you on behalf of the instrument ACTS is the Scottish christian gathering which will take place this year... from Friday the twenty sixth of June to Sunday the twenty eighth of June at Saint Andrew's College.... It is according to the book, which is our sort of bible on the matter, for celebration and vision, for fellowship, exploration and discernment of opportunities and tasks with broad participation from all member churches and others to amplify and strengthen the whole movement of ACTS.... You will notice it is a yellow card also er it is somewhat larger than the other one which was flaunted earlier before us... and the good news is that you've got, each one of you, a copy of this in your cubbyholes. Could I just conclude Moderator by saying that those who are engaged in ACTS... the churches which are participating members of this... action of churches together in Scotland... are engaged in a journey together.... The imaginations of each church and indeed s of the several members perhaps shape differently the goal... that lies ahead.... But we must be sure that, however shaped in our imagination that goal is, it must be inspired by our lord's own will for his church... praying that his disciples would be one as he and the father are one. And it seems to me that that oneness, that that unity is pneumatic in character. It is based on the holy spirit. And it is for us surely to open ourselves without... prejudice to the shape that it will take... in the future.... I think we can say that if it is pneumatic in character, the shape will be organic. For the moment we move forward believing that we are going in a direction to which we have already been prompted, and in the confidence that the holy spirit is working among us. Thank you. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] I'm delighted Bishop you took the opportunity to so address us and it underlines our benefit in being able to have our delegates participate in our debates and discussions. Thank you for your contribution.... I put to the assembly deliverance number twenty three... approved. Deliverance number twenty four... thank you.... [Mr Holt:] three three five. I am s one that has just been recently appointed to one of these er regional... ecumenical teams and at a meeting that was held for the three presbytery areas in the sort of west coast of Scotland, around the Greenoch area, erm... it was, it became apparent that all these people who are being appointed er through their, their churches are... in the main... clergy and the convenor of the local committee himself a ruling elder of the Church of Scotland expressed concern about this, that there is no real er and I would just put it to the, to the assembly, there is... there is no need for these members to be members of the clergy, in fact it would be good if presbyteries remembered when making a nomination... eh that it, er it needn't be, it could be a, a an elder or indeed er a lay person holding no particular office within the church. That would sustain what eh Bishop has just referred to, the grass roots of, of this movement.... [speaker003:] Twenty four approved then?... Thank you. Twenty five... local involvement number twenty six... twenty seven... yes?... [Mr Mckweon:] Reverend eleven twenty six.... I've read number twenty seven says draw attention to the possibilities for church members to take part in overseas and exchange visits and I would simply like to do that. Yesterday a minister from an urban priority area... er while er welcoming the thought of a an urban priority area fund or urban and rural priority area fund, said that people were at least as important as money in many situations. None of us can doubt the economic plight of many of the countries where our mission partners work... but the relationship of people is every bit as important and visits play a large part in that. A small group er... from my own parish went to India two and a half years ago to visit our missionary partner. She had visited us many times over a nu number of years and said it was our turn to visit her and we just laughed. Us go to Darjeeling?... But eventually she persuaded us she meant it and we went and it was an invaluable experience... meeting not only our missionary partner but the people among whom she lives and... and works and has done for many years. The warmth of the welcome from the girls in the school hostel... would have gladdened anyone's heart. They were not well off and they didn't welcome us because we had brought gifts... they simply welcomed us because we had had the interest to go and see them and talk to them. We enjoyed their music and shared their worship and we came back changed and enriched and I commend number twenty seven to everyone's attention. Thank you Moderator. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] Number twenty seven approved?... Thank you. Number twenty eight... approved. I've got a new number, twenty nine, and you'll find that on the pale blue papers... page number sixty five... the first notice of... I put number twenty nine to the general assembly... is that approved?... Number thirty... approved. Number thirty one... approved... the deliverance as a whole and as amended, approved. Now before we... move further I'd like to take this opportunity of expressing on your behalf... our thanks to Hugh here for the service that he's rendered our church to this point in time but particularly as the convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. Hugh you've been minister of the parish of Inverleith here in Edinburgh for the past seventeen years, and I understand you were one of the very first vice convenors of the Board when it was set up eight years ago... having already served the church on the former Interchurch Relations Committee.... You were born in India on the mission field... and through your family's experience and your own you've brought to the convenorship of the Board a great personal interest in the overseas church and in international affairs. For several years here in Edinburgh [clears throat] you have been the presbytery's World Mission and Unity convenor and then you became the convenor of the Board's local involvement committee which links our congregations to people who work overseas in churches there with whom they serve. As the convenor of the Board since nineteen eighty eight you have visited the European work of the Board in Rotterdam, in Paris, in Budapest and in Prague... also in Israel and Egypt... and you have represented the Board at meetings of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches. Hugh you have shown throughout all of your work a deep concern for the people working abroad... for our partner churches... and for our ecumenical relations... and the need to keep these matters to the fore of the church and also of our country. Hugh you and I share the gift of a very unusual christian name. I understand it's the only way in which these letters are arranged in the anglosaxon language and is often used as an example of such. It's a very difficult name at times to live up to I'm sure because the word Hugh literally means mind or soul... and it is important that we seek indeed to live up to what our names mean. You have certainly applied your mind to the work of the Board and you have encouraged its vision and its direction through your intellectual gifts and perceptions and insights. And you've also brought your soul to bear on the work of the Board and the work of the church. Within the assembly council I personally valued your contributions... the very courteous and thoughtful way in which you presented these... and the courage with which you expressed at times the stand that you had to take for the interest of the Board. And yet above that and beyond that what you were seeking to do was not just to serve the Board of World Mission and Unity, it was to serve what you believed was the good and right for the church of god which you have sought to serve and to support and to take further. For that contribution, and for that depth of spirituality within yourself which you have brought to bear for the benefit of the work of this Board and for that of our whole church, we want to thank you very much indeed this morning. [speaker003:] [applause]... [Hugh:] I'm delighted and I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear the advice of the business convenor that we suspend at this point in time. And we, we recons we, we, we... we come back to continue our meeting at two o'clock this afternoon. We adjourn until two o'clock.

[Hugh:] I call for the report on the panel on doctrine on page one hundred and eighty five to be presented by Dr Stuart. Dr... [Dr Stuart:] Moderator I have the honour to present this report on behalf of the panel. Our report this year covers four matters though to the first there's really only passing reference. The working party on the theology of marriage is finding its task stimulating but arduous and it will surprise no one that it's taking a long time. We hope however to report to next year's general assembly. The second matter covered in the report is eligibility for infant baptism. Commissioners will recall that the story here begins with the presbytery of Hamilton's dissatisfaction with the act currently governing eligibility for infant baptism. This is act seventeen, nineteen sixty three which basically requires that parents, one or both, of a child to be baptised be or be prepared to become full communicant members of the church. Hamilton tried to convince the assembly that this act was bad and was being disregarded by many. They also held that where it was observed it was unduly restrictive. The presbytery of Hamilton's proposed solution was a repeal of the nineteen sixty three act and a reversion to the nineteen thirty three act which required from parents only a profession of faith.... The assembly of nineteen ninety could not agree on an immediate response to the presbytery of Hamilton's overture and remitted the matter to the panel. The panel brought to last year's assembly a modest am amendment of the nineteen sixty three act which it believed was theologically sound... pastorally sensitive and which would provide a degree of flexibility. Our report on this matter was sent to the presbyteries under the act, but it failed to win acceptance.... In the comments that came from some sixteen of the presbyteries who were against the amendment, two things are significant... as our report points out. The first is the lack of any uniformity in the reactions to our report. This suggests to us that there's probably no advantage to be gained from further tinkering with the law. The second significant thing in the comments is the absence of any desire to follow Hamilton's advice... and revert to the nineteen thirty three act. The panel recognizes however that there was substance in the presbytery of Hamilton's claim that the nineteen sixty three law can cause pastoral problems. Ministers can experience difficulty when they find themselves in a situation where refusing the baptism is their only option and parents can take grave offence. We therefore ask the assembly today to authorize the panel to prepare a leaflet explaining the church's position to parents who are not communicant members and who are not willing to become such but who neverth s still which baptism for their child. We have permission to incur the cost of such a leaflet if the assembly approves.... The third matter on which we er report is the place and purpose of confirmation. Last year's assembly remitted to us the task of working out the consequences for the service known as confirmation if children are admitted to the sacrament of the lord's supper. After all the title of the service in the book of common order is... confirmation held... admission to the lord's supper. To be fair to the youth education committee, they had already gone some way in answering the questions raised. For example, they distinguished between a response of faith from a child seeking admission to the lord's supper and a profession of faith. The first, the response of faith from a child, would be identified in... private consultation involving minister, parents and child. The second, profession of faith, would, as now, be public and preceded by a course of instruction. The panel has however endeavoured to ref to fulfil its remit by analyzing the whole confirmation service in the book of common order... and we come to the conclusion that really the admission of children to the sacrament of the lord's supper would necessitate only minor adjustments to the service as we now know it. That's because admission to the sacrament of the lord's supper is... one element only... in the service. There are three other elements which have as we say their own very considerable spiritual and liturgical validity, purpose and usefulness. These other ele elements are... profession, public profession of faith... after instruction in a class... prayer for strengthening and commitment to service. Instruction in the faith given in late teens or early twenties is essential, essential for young people, both those who've received communion in earlier years and those who have not.... Prayer for strength is appropriate at any stage of our lives and might well be made daily... but that does not invalidate the usefulness of marking one day in our life when someone prays over us in public and asks that out of the treasures of his glory, God may grant you strength and power through his spirit in your inner being that through faith cast may dwell in your hearts in love. Commitment... offering oneself to the lord in the service of the church and the world is the third and quite prominent element in the service of confirmation as we have it, and as we say... in a day when emphasis is being laid on the ministry of the whole people of God... there is surely value in a definite act of commitment on a definite day. An a an act of commitment and commissioning to that ministry. All in all therefore, the service would not be noticeably impoverished were the element of admission to the lord's supper to be removed from it, or were adjustments to be necessary to cover, cover some in a class who had communicated in earlier years.... Finally this year we report on the statement of Christian faith.... In our report tribute is paid to Dr Sheila for her work in collating the results of discussion in forty presbyteries, and four hundred and sixty four kirk sessions. And that tribute is well justified and well deserved.... The assembly will note that we propose to drop the commentary which did not prove as useful as we had hoped it might. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Dr Stuart:] [LAUGHTER] Happily, happily [] the statement of faith does seem to have commended itself to a much larger number of presbyteries and kirk sessions and many... indeed hundreds... hundreds took the trouble to offer amendments and improvements to it. Note has been taken of these and some of them appear in the panel's revision. The interest shown in the chur by the church in the statement of faith emboldens us to ask the assembly to authorize publication of the reworded statement for use in worship and teaching... in confirmation classes, study groups and so on. What is envisaged is a simple card and the possibility of inclusion in the new book of common order. Again permission has been given to the panel to incur the expense if the assembly approves the relevant deliverance.... It has been gratifying to learn that the panel's work stimulated so much discussion and presbyteries and sessions have been generous in their acknowledgement of this. The panel hopes now that this statement of faith can be seen as... a useful and fairly accessible indicator to outsiders as to what the faith is all about, and at the same time... as a ring of words which at least the majority of us within the church can happily affirm. Moderator I present the report, and must ask the clerk to move the deliverance as I am the corresponding member. [speaker003:] the deliverance. [Hugh:] Is it seconded?... Thank you.... Questions to the convenor.... [Ian:] Ian number three two six eh... question relating to eh a mention in the report eh in connection with the statement of faith, the panel say in the report on page one eight nine that they recognize the statement does not fully satisfy the concern for a modern confession of faith which was the background to the remit given by the assembly of nineteen eighty six. Eh my question is three parts, does the panel propose to bring er a future er report to an assembly with a... relating to this er matter. If so does it actually propose to bring a confession of faith er in modern terms... and if so, can the panel give any idea what form that might take.... [speaker003:] Dr.... [Dr Stuart:] Moderator that's a helpful question I, I'm sure. But I must er be cagey in my answer to it. I, I think we will see how things go. See how this, if the statement is approved today erm... er if the publication of it is, is approved, we'll see how it er is received in the church as a whole, how it... used in practice... er and we'll have to s see when the time is right to bring forward any confession of faith. As you know there have been... the history of it is, is well known to most commissioners I'm sure, there have been... m there has been more than one attempt in the recent, in the last decade... to bring something to the assembly er along these lines. And there is no doubt that a confession of faith perhaps is, is needed sometimes. We're extraordinarily elusive about what exactly we believe in the Church of Scotland, we say, you know recognizing liberty of opinion always, and such things as do not enter into the substance of the faith, and then we don't say what the substance of the faith is. Er... so we are elusive and maybe the time will be, will come when we really must put it all down. But I think we must be given freedom to choose the time and not commit ourselves to any timetable. The statement... just as a... as a useful instrument will er... I hope it will be a useful instrument... er is a step in probably the right direction and we just... wait and see.... [speaker003:] Any other questions? [speaker005:] Are you accepting questions on the statement of faith at this point? [speaker003:] We're taking questions on any aspect of the report from the panel on doctrine. [speaker005:] I accept almost entirely the... oh two six two.... I accept almost entirely the statement of faith except for one phrase... accepting that God is love... I have difficulty in reconciling he who created the universe, who is love, with the tempest, the earthquake... the great white shark and the crocodile. Could the convenor of the panel on doctrine help me with this one. Thank you Moderator. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [Hugh:] I'm glad I'm Moderator now and no longer a convenor. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [Dr Stuart:] The panel on doctrine is the fountain of all wisdom of course. [clears throat] The problem of evil I... who am I to er start... embark on an explanation of the problem of evil and el elements of chaos in the universe? All I can say is that the yes of God's love is stronger than the no of his judgment and that I do believe that despite all the shadows and elements of chaos in the world, in the universe and in life, God's love is stronger and he is a God of love. [speaker003:] [applause] Any other questions?... Sorry?... Come moment, thank you.... [speaker006:] Er four hundred and ninety. Erm would the convenor say erm [clears throat]... what he understands from the statement of faith and the statement of faith alone... erm to be the teaching on the atonement that is,wh what are we taught... about the atonement... from the statement of faith?... [Dr Stuart:] Moderator the beauty of the statement of faith... er the beauty of, of a statement of faith that wins support or, or can be accepted as useful in many quarters is that it doesn't... er try to be too specific perhaps. And er this has always been the, the marvel of liturgical words, that they... they pointed to the truth without being too definitive about the truth. And therefore... people with different nuances of opinion could er unite in affirming these words which point to the truth. And so I wouldn't want to be er asked to interpret any one line of this in particular, or to put any particular nuance on it because then you would say aha... but that's not what we believe. Er if, if there is a sufficient... er indication in these words... an indication, a pointer as I say, if there's a transparency in these words which enables us to see through to the truth... then our formulation of it doesn't matter all that much. And then as you know, no statement... our, our Christian truth can never be encapsulated in any one statement. Another way of putting that is you'll never please everybody but... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Dr Stuart:] but less superficially it is a fact that Christian truth is not to be equated with our formulations of it... and we must always satisfy ourselves with pointers to it. And I think what the questioner was asking for is, is probably adequately covered in the Christological section where we talk of giving hope and declaring forgiveness of sin. And I would not want to be pushed further.... [speaker003:] Thank you. Question from the young lady. Moderator one five eight. Moderator between the eligibility of infant bap fo infant baptism and the confirmation service I find myself unclear, what do we do with children who are unbaptised say between the ages of three and twelve, whose parents are not ba themselves church members and who are not prepared to take the promises for them? I myself my previous have had this case er where an eight year old wanted baptise and in the event the parent was prepared, though not herself a member of the church, to take the promises. Who takes the promises of a, a child of... immature years and yet erm articulate? I, I find I don't know what to do in this situation between the two. ... [Dr Stuart:] Er Moderator I'm sorry I, I've not quite caught the, the question there. Could I be er helped... could the, the s speaker just repeat the question? [Hugh:] Mrs [speaker003:] Thank you. Sorry. Case given, you have a child who... to ask for baptism, him or herself. The parents are not church members, the child is not baptised but wants baptised, who makes the promises?... And that I have personally already found a problem. [Dr Stuart:] If there's a legal question here I'll happily field it to the [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [applause]... [Dr Stuart:] I if i, if it's a pastoral problem I, I think probably the child er should take er such... vows as they can. [speaker003:] [applause] [Dr Stuart:] But I, I place great er importance on the job of the elder.... The job of the elder to stand by that child and, and see to its Christian nurture thereafter. And I think we these... er [speaker003:] Can I ask which promises? Is it the promises merely for baptism or the promises for confirmation in that the child is articulate and intelligent enough to answer? [Dr Stuart:] It must surely be the promises for baptism [speaker003:] Just for baptism. [Dr Stuart:] As far as [speaker003:] Which [Dr Stuart:] you know as far as they're [speaker003:] now admits to the sacrament?... Yes. Thank you.... ... [Hugh:] Moderator nine hundred and ten, a question concerning the statement of faith. And again perhaps to follow up a previous question... and the question is this, that in the first draft of the statement of faith which was presented two years ago, there was a very clear statement which said that Christ died for our sin... in connection with the cross... and I was wondering what the reasoning was which took away that very specific meaning of the death of the Christ into a much more general and ambiguous one in the statement before us today.... Doctor?... [Dr Stuart:] Er again that's a very specific question to which I can't give a specific answer. You know we have had, as you saw, hundreds and hundreds of amendments and the thing has gone through an enormous process of... of er consideration. Erm so I don't honestly remember at what point the line that er Mr Bruce refers to er was removed or was transformed into what we have here. Er... it became... by his death on the cross and has triumphed over evil.... It's a question of... [LAUGHTER] we were told always to be brief, it has to be brief, you can't say everything. Erm and again we must rest our case that we've done our best with it. Er the... Christ died for our sins, triumphed over evil, is er i is our effort at covering v many aspects of that great event.... [Hugh:] Moderator, can I ask a second question? If it's in a different subject from what you've asked already. Er no it isn't.... [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [Hugh:] Any other questions? Moderator one six nine. I, I have a quandary here cos I'm not quite sure whether I should be asking a question or proposing something against the deliverance but I have attended and er listened to a number of debates arising out of this matter of er the baptism of children... and time and again it's struck me that it starts off about baptism but it turns out to be a discussion about the parents.... Now I don't detect in the work of the er panel on doctrine up to the present time anything which tackles I'm sorry but I, I want to be... fair to everybody, yeah and I also want to be fair to the debate that's still to come later this afternoon, but I've called for questions and I'd like everybody to start their statement with the question which they're going to put to the convenor. It gives him Well it gives him, in fairness, time to think out the answer rather than hearing the question at the very end. And therefore I'd like everybody to well the preface their statement with a question. There's ample opportunity in the debate to make contributions. just questions. The question is this Moderator Thank you. erm... has the panel on doctrine really tackled the question per se what is the theological position of children from their birth onwards, and put that in a concrete, orderly statement, or are they intending to do so?... [Dr Stuart:] We, we believe Moderator that the statement in last year's blue book did really cover that pretty adequately, that's our response to Mr.... [Hugh:] Any other questions?... I then move to the deliverances on page one hundred and eighty five.... Number one... approved.... Of course, certainly.... Bishop of Newcastle.... [speaker007:] Moderator I, one two eight six, I wondered whether a word from south of the border might be in order because in recent years in the Church of England we've been busy discussing the theological foundations and the practical discipline in respect of several matters which fall under the general heading of Christian initiation and indeed we have been experimenting a bit here and there. Erm [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] and these matters relate to sections two and three of the panel's report and indeed to yesterday's debate. There are three points which I should wish to make.... First with regard to infant baptism and its general availability. Our general synod has been reminded of two thorough reports produced by the Church of Scotland on the subject of baptism in I think nineteen fifty five and nineteen sixty two... with their clear emphasis are that the person of Christ and the work of Christ are central to the understanding of baptism. Indeed the covenant is important... but it is Christ who holds the key to the understanding of baptism and I thought that you would like to hear how your work has helped us to see our way in this respect.... And then second... er the meaning and practice of confirmation has been much debated among us. There's an ecumenical consensus nowadays surely that it is by faith and baptism that one is made a Christian or becomes a Christian... and we've also inherited, many of us, another rite, with its origins in the New Testament, valuable in the making of a christian... and the three strands in confirmation set out in the report before us would certainly be owned by all of us. But our house of bishops has decided that we should adhere to the order traditional for us, of baptism, of confirmation, first communion, and our general synod has endorsed this decision. We treasure confirmation and we fear that any alteration in the pattern might lead to confirmation ceasing to be observed. And we also had a fear that, with different disciplines and different dioceses and parishes, that could be a recipe for chaos and confusion. There will therefore be no further experimental schemes in dioceses and parishes whereby children are admitted to communion before confirmation. The bishops will be prepared to confirm children at a rather younger age so that they may be admitted earlier to the communicant life. As a consequence, the note of lifelong commitment will be less prominent in the confirmation of these candidates. And this leads to the third point, namely that we have asked for various new rites to be prepared. Rites which can be offered and used when occasion demands. For instance a rite of lifelong commitment for adults or of young people on the verge of adult life who have been confirmed at an earlier age.... A rite of reaffirming vows made at baptism and at confirmation, a rite particularly intended for those who have subsequently experienced some sort of dramatic renewal of their Christian life which makes their previous experience of it seem as nothing. And then a rite of reconciliation for those who've lapsed from church membership, or from the practice of their religion, and want to start again in a purposeful manner. I mention this variety of rites, which are in process of preparation, because the main route whereby people are introduced to and grow in the light of the church, baptism as infants, confirmation in early teens, leading to faithful communicant life, that route is no longer followed by quite a number in our fellowship. The scene is much more complex than it was say a generation or two ago... and Moderator we in the Church of England should be much interested to learn in due course whether you too will feel a need to make liturgical revision for these various paths to faith.... [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] Number one approved.... Number two [speaker008:] Moderator... four five nine... Moderator I... welcome the number two in the deliverance but I would make a plea to the... er panel that this leaflet be a very simple leaflet and it not be brief, but in fact be quite lengthy. My reasons for... eh urging the eh panel to do this are that... many areas of our church are in deprived areas. Many er areas of our church are in areas where the education, educational standards are not as high in other areas, and a lot of the leaflets that we bring out are quite er unable to be understood by many people in these areas. So I am pleading that the panel really take a great deal of effort in this leaflet so that it is going to be easily understood by even the... people who are less well educated than some of us. For instance most of this debate would not have been understood by many people in my parish. And I would urge the panel to send out their proposed leaflet to the ministers in various areas where the educational standards are not very high that they may look at them and put forward suggestions so that the leaflet that eventually comes out will be understood by the whole of our people and not just by the most educated. Thank you Moderator. [Hugh:] Mr... [speaker003:] Moderator two seven eight. Moderator I have a counter motion to deliverance two... in the following terms. Instruct the panel on doctrine and the board of practice and procedure to hold area conferences with presbyteries to see if there is a need for new legislation on eligibility for infant baptism.... Moderator I am not convinced that in rejecting the legislation that went down under the Barrier Act, presbyteries were merely endorsing the status quo. I suspect from what I heard in conversation from others in other presbyteries is that many of them were in favour of change, but simply did not feel that what was proposed was an improvement to what we have already. And I fear therefore that we're in precisely the same position as we were when the presbytery of Hamilton brought their overture to us. And because I fear that that is the position, I cannot help but feel that before long we will have yet another attempt to amend Act seventeen, nineteen sixty three... and that we will go round the circuit, the same circuit once again with I fear the same result. My hope... and at this stage it can only be a hope, is that if consultations are held with presbyteries, a consensus will emerge as to the nature of the changes to Act seventeen that are required and that that consensus will enable the Act to be successfully amended. Moderator I would simply cite as an example of what I have in mind the conferences organized by the assembly council which successfully resolved the problem of necessary buildings. Moderator I move. [Hugh:] Mr before we can ask for a seconder on it I'd ask the clerk to make a de definition about expenditure that has not necessarily been costed beforehand. [speaker003:] Yes Moderator I think it was Mr who drew my attention yesterday [LAUGHTER] [applause] to standing or order nineteen fifty four about new or additional expenditure which says that any proposal which involves new or additional expenditure etcetera must be in the hands of commissioners and printed in proper form. Now the Board of Practice and Procedure has a budget and w which we have already negotiated, and we're hoping to be able to hold our presbytery clerks conference but there is nothing in the budget that could possibly cope with these additional conferences and these would therefore be new and additional expenditure, and this motion cannot therefore be treated as competent.... Hoist with one's own petard. [LAUGHTER]... [Hugh:] You may make a comment Dr. Yes, number two is still before the assembly.... [speaker009:] Moderator it is said that... a passion for consistency is the mark of a small mind... which probably explains why I have a passion for consistency. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] It seems to me that we are inclining to be very inconsistent in regard to two matters which have recently been very much before us. In the, when we dealt with the matter of children and communion, we based the whole case upon the doctrine that nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of the grace of God being available for all and sundry. Nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of that. Children, if they mu must be... allowed to come forward and... share in that grace at the lord's table and so on. When we come to deal with infant baptism... we take the view that the failure of parents to measure up to certain standards is to be allowed to stand in the way of the grace of God being available for their children.... This is particularly difficult in view of the fact that it is just their children who are probably far more in need of that grace of God just because of the attitude of their parents, than those of parents who measure up to all the standards that we impose. Now I'm aware that many parents bring their children for baptism from reasons of superstition or custom or anything you like... I'm reminded of a certain tax gatherer who, inspired by sheer idle curiosity, climbed a tree... curiosity maybe took him up the tree but it was the grace of God that brought him down. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker009:] And I care not what may be the motive of the parents who bring their children and want them offered to Christ in the sacrament of baptism... it is the grace of God that is available for them there and I think we should be very thoughtful about these matters and try to take up either one position or the other. Either... the grace should be available to all or there should be a right to impose restrictions. Thank you. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] this gentleman, thank you. [speaker003:] one six... one six seven. Erm... it's with a view to in fact er Dr 's point that I want to speak. Erm this whole problem does give ministers erm a great deal of tension and heart searching erm and er we're in the throws of, of, of looking for a leaflet that's gonna help ministers faced with er parents who come and have to be turned away because we feel embarrassed, we feel erm the weight of our, our turning away people and our inability to minister the grace of God to them, although I'd of thought gravity of but er anyway erm er but we have this problem and erm it seems to me that one way out of it is to pick up on what our brother from the Church of England said and look at new rites, and new ways in which we can open our arms to a public out there which is desperately in need of rites of passage. And the only erm body with any integrity and any standing in the eyes of the people of Scotland is the Church of Scotland. We have the rites of passage and the public out there, whether they are pagan, agnostic, unbelieving or Christian, want rites of passage. Unfortunately our rites of passage are specifically designated for Christians and that is quite clear. And you look at the er the preamble in the, in the order er the book of common order for baptism and it is designated for Christian people, that particular rite of passage. The rite of passage of marriage is not, interestingly enough, if one looks at it carefully but baptism certainly is. Erm and er what I would like to see, and I've long wanted to see this coming out of the church, is a rite of passage that I with integrity can offer to any parents who come to me with a, a, a lovely little baby in their arms saying to me parish minister can you give us something that would satisfy us, and they're not saying it like this, but they want a rite of passage. I would erm love to be able to offer them something that had the sanction of the whole church and the weight of the church behind it erm which could satisfy the longing for me to do this. Erm and I would see that in terms of a service of thanksgiving, some kind of service of thanksgiving where I could pray with them, we could pray for the child in their arms in the face of the congregation and ask God's blessing on the life of that child and see that as a celebration of thanksgiving and a, a prayer of blessing for, for that child. And we would not be asking the parents to say things they didn't believe or make promises that they had no intention of fulfilling. Erm and we could offer this to the whole er er t to anyone who came to us and therefore be seen to be a church which was very accepting and outward going and missionary minded because all too often we hear ministers talking about erm using bapti baptism as an evangelical tool er c talk which I greatly resent and resist. So erm the point of my remarks is to, to add to number two the following er the following words... erm and urge the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth.... And I so move. [Hugh:] Is that [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] is that seconded?... Thank you. Any discussion on this new er on this amendment? On this addendum?... [speaker010:] Moderator I tell you what the convenor would say six four O... is it for the panel to bring forward a rite... or is it for the... er committee on... worship to bring forward rites? Erm I think we're asking the panel on doctrine to do something that is not really within their remit at the moment.... [Hugh:] This is not your summing up, this is only answering Mr 's point Dr [Dr Stuart:] Er I think Mr is probably right [LAUGHTER] correct [] er that rites [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [Dr Stuart:] er this is probably a job for the panel on worship. Nevertheless, in case I seem to be just er avoiding the question, er I would have to say that this has been asked for before and we have resisted time and again, that's the history of the matter, on the grounds that what these parents are really asking for is baptism and it's our opportunity to... to er, to speak in these terms er and... it's a gold golden opportunity if they actually come to us.... [speaker003:] one O six five. I would resist that addition to the... er... paragraph in the deliverance. It seems to me that the New Testament says very clearly that many people came to Jesus asking for a sign and he pointed to himself. We are a Christian church and we should be speaking of things of Christ.... [Hugh:] thank you.... [speaker003:] seven one seven. Moderator [clears throat] I too would want to resist th th the addendum that has been proposed for number two because it seems to me that we're concerned as a church with the issue of baptism and initiation and we want to keep our mind and our ideas firmly fixed on that however unpleasant and uncomfortable it is. It seems to me that however attractive this addendum is, it's taking us away from the real issue which is about the baptism one which the bishop er also kind of brought up er and which we've been exercising ourselves over. Sadly Mr 's proposal fell on a technicality, but I think he put his finger on something which I felt the assembly was, was responding to, that we are not finished with this issue... and although it fell on a technicality about money, perhaps without making any addendums and motions we might er refuse this addendum... and keep our minds on the baptism issue and hope that the Board of Practice and Procedure and the panel on doctrine will pick up the substance and the, the essence of what Mr was asking for and pursue this matter until as a church we can get it sorted out to the satisfaction of all the groups within the church. Let's not go go down a side road however, as it were, appealing it may be, let's stick to the main difficult one and keep chewing it until we can get an answer. I hope that, that the assembly will not take this addendum and then I hope the two boards concerned will take on the issue as Mr suggested.... [Hugh:] Thank you. [Dr Stuart:] Er one two three five. I feel that not a enough emphasis has been put on the vows that er parents take and the responsibility the minister has in administering those vows... and therefore I support er the new amendment because of this, that it offers er... a form of evangelism without the risk of having the parents taking vows that they do not... er... that they cannot keep.... [speaker003:] Moderator might I ask a question? [Hugh:] I'm sorry but that that lady... [Ian:] J A one six one. Erm I would like to formally second Mr because I followed a situation where the previous minister had baptised anyone... and when I arrived I discussed with the session what our policy on baptism was and we concurred that we should follow the nineteen sixty three law but apply it... under grace and... with the spirit of God in mind... and we had some very difficult situations when people said to me no I have no time for God in my life but I want you to baptise my baby.... And they could not understand why I refused... to baptise their baby. We need something else that we can give people that still shows them the love of God. Sh that th the people were willing to make promises that they did not wish to keep... that they would not keep... and I in all sincerity could not let them do that, and they went away extremely hurt and that particular situation unfortunately became extremely tragic later on. I don't wish that to happen again. [Hugh:] Thank you. Mr [speaker003:] Moderator might I ask a question... er perhaps a supplementary?... Is there any reason why the conference... which is budgeted for... might not be used to reflect the mind of presbyteries on the proposal that Mr was putting forward? And in the event of that answer being yes, will it be done?... [Hugh:] I think Mr you've anticipated a, a, a... a statement that was going to be given shortly by... Mr Yes I think so. [speaker003:] Er Moderator er there isn't any reason in principle why this sh shouldn't happen that er this subject couldn't come up at the presbytery clerks conference. It has to be said however that the presbytery, presbytery clerks... er write their own agenda for these meetings er for these conferences and er it would be up to presbyteries to instruct their clerks that that had to go on their agenda.... [Hugh:] Mr Mr is a presbytery clerk so I think your point will be well answered. [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] four four seven. Unless I have missed it earlier in this debate, I think there may be a point of clarification which may need to be made er with the result of yesterday's decision, and that is that section two, which we're now discussing, speaks of the position of parents who are not communicant members. Do I take it now to mean that that means parents who have not been baptised? Because it is the... grace of baptism administered to an infant which allows them to receive the grace of communion and therefore they are in essential, as well as being universal members of the church, they're membe they're communicant members of the church. And therefore the requirement is simply for a parent asking for baptism for their child to have been baptised. Is that?... [speaker003:] Moderator... the erm overture which we passed into an act er in the last sentence of section three says the names of such children, that's those children who have been admitted to... erm communion as children, shall be admitted to the communion roll of the congregation when they have made public profession of their faith... that is, when they reach the point at which they make that normal statement and the... my understanding would be people whose names are on the communion roll. [Hugh:] Would it be the, the will of the general assembly that we take a vote on the amendment that has been, the addendum that has been made to number two at this stage?... Are you withdrawing your addendum then? [speaker003:] Moderator er listening er three double three, listening to Mr 's point er about bringing this in in conjunction with the, the section on baptism erm... I think we're in agreement that it would be more appropriate to raise this as a new section.... [Hugh:] Mr you're withdrawing your addendum then to number two? I'm sorry, I'm asking for an answer really, yes or no. [speaker003:] Yes, yes [Hugh:] And er you can't, I I'm not asking er I can't allow you to again [speaker003:] Well I think I, I think I'll stick I'll stick, stick by the issue then... yes. [Hugh:] You're staying, you're s [speaker003:] I, I'll stay with it. Aha [Hugh:] You're staying with your addendum. That's fine. Could I [speaker003:] Moderator... c could I ask, is this really in order? I, I mean should it not belong on the panel on worship? Well this is It, it might, I was going to suggest Moderator that if, if the thing were amended to, to delete the word rite er and, and... and perhaps have, you know, the whole issue rather than th the rite it could perhaps go to the, the panel on doctrine and be perfectly in order.... Yes Mo Moderator the precise words are ask the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth. Er it is not asking the panel to n you know to draft a rite that would used and I, I would interpret this to mean that it's asking the panel to look up the theological propriety if you like of such a rite... and bring forward suggestions which would then be passed for implementation, if so decided, to the panel on worship. [Hugh:] I if that is understood and that is accepted that would meet Mr 's point in that it is, it is in fact in order... and, and is not interfering with another panel's responsibilities. Therefore I ask the assembly now to vote o sorry, yes Dr you have the right to reply, of course you have. [Dr Stuart:] Moderator I, I feel I'd still want to resist this and hope the assembly would not accept it. I think it's significant that on page one eight six of our, of the blue book, we report four sentenc for er lines from the top... two presbyteries expressed a desire for the whole practice of infant baptism to be re-examined, only two presbyteries. Er... I I I I th I doubt if really we, we need to go into all this matter again. We have really answered these questions in the course of our work and er I think any rite, any consideration of a rite of passage such as was, was er asked for, is in a sense detracting from the significance of holy baptism and I doubt if there's any future in this. [Hugh:] Could I then ask the clerk to read the words that have been proposed to be added to number two as it stands on page one eight five. And we are only voting on whether we will accept to add these words or not, we're not voting at this stage on deliverance number two.... [speaker003:] Moderator to add at the end of er that deliverance these words... [reading] urge the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth []. [Hugh:] Those who wish to vote for the addition of these words to deliverance number two would you please stand.... Thank you. Those wishing to vote against please stand. I declare it's been carried against and so we come back to deliverance number two as it is in the print. [speaker003:] Moderator [Hugh:] Yes. [speaker003:] ... one one eight nine.... Moderator the convenor in his introduction and in the deliverance... says that the church's position is that it offers baptism to parents who are not er who, who... is seeking to explain the church's position to parents who are not communicant members or intending members of the church. I think I, I should say that the current law of the church offers baptism to those who are communicant members or intending members of the church or who are adherents.... And an adherent of the church is understood in the highland region, the largest single... local government area in the European Community... to be someone who attends worship regularly. There are a great number of adherents in the highlands. There are also a large number of adherents er to my knowledge in Edinburgh, people who have moved from the highlands for work. I think of a lady who, now seventy, has attended her parish church in Edinburgh... regularly year by year for forty years. She is not a communicant member because she doesn't find herself worthy to come to the lord's table. This is a traditional and most unfortunate highland practice... but nevertheless it is something that is currently accepted by the church... and I would hope that the convenor in drawing up, or the panel in drawing up the leaflet, would take account of this. Otherwise I would wish to move that the word o adherents or intending members be added to the deliverance.... [Hugh:] Dr could you give clarification or confirmation please. [Dr Stuart:] Yes certainly confirmation. We undoubtedly respect the position of the... of the adherents as you describe them, undoubtedly. This was really just shorthand I suppose, but we undoubtedly er respect [Hugh:] Could I now put number, deliverance number two to the general assembly. Is it approved?... Thank you. Deliverance number three. Approved? Sorry, you wish to... you wish to make a comment to it? Yes please come. Thank you.... Moderator two hundred and fifty five. I found this section, number three, of particular interest because surely it's dealing with the very kernel of our relationship to what we call in language that ought to be so real and... preserved from romanticism, the body of Christ... membership... limbhood... branchship, whatever you want to call it, if whether you take your figure from John fifteen or from the Apostle. It seems to me that this is something on which er not en passant but within the flow of his report Dr Stuart mentioned something of great importance and I was jotting down for myself, by way of aide memoire, membership, Madagascar, ministry of the whole people of God, three Ms as it were. The reason is that erm the question of membership seems to me to relate essentially to the ministry of the whole people of God. And therefore I, I would like to tell you an experience I had in Madagascar because it's one of the things that will be in my memory on my deathbed. I visited a college there in, in that offshore island in the Indian Ocean and met the principal of that theological college and I said to him, I asked him how the college was going and he gave the same blandness to his answer as to my question and then he said... of his theological college... we are still training an aristocracy for the church and ensuring the inertia of the people of God. And I had to say, inside myself, that's awful like the kirk. Cos in a very profound sense this is true, and I was so glad that it was... I think a very serious part of the flow of Dr Stuart 's report that he mentioned... that the er s sense of the... ministry of the whole people of God as being much more than a distant objective for us, but something of absolutely essential, vital importance to the whole life and service and outreach of the church. And what worries me, if I may say so in this matter is that, that I find... er in my retirement, a sensitivity among some of my fellow ministers about something that one of them described as a threat to status... a feeling that there must be a protection of prerogatives. And it seems to me that this is so profoundly tragic because surely if we talk about the body of Christ there is not only a relationship of every limb and member to the head, but of every limb and member to every other limb and member. And my plea would be that we... do everything we possibly can and that's why I found the quotation from scripture in this section so apposite, that we do everything we possibly can in grace and love and truth to help people to enter into a commitment to the ministry of the whole people of God. And not to that kind of limp... posture that was summed up by the princ principal of the theological college er with the word inertia. There is a profound inertia and part of that in many places surely with it there is a profound inertia on another matter... Dr Stuart referred to, in an answering a question he said I would see this as the, the role of the elder. Can we not do more even than we're doing at the moment to restore to the centre of the life of the church the glorious concept of a team of pastoral care and a high command of power strategy in which dominance by ministers will be reduced to the minimum in order that together we may be ready to let the lifeblood of Christ flow through us in such a way that we will be better able to welcome the twenty first century in his name. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] May I bring the assembly back to deliverance number three. Is that approved? Number three... before we come to number four... the business convenor please?... [speaker003:] I simply wanted just to intervene at this point Moderator er there, before we get into a debate on section four, just to remind the assembly that we have a heavy volume of business still ahead of us this afternoon. We do hope to take the board of social responsibility report this afternoon as well and that people might just keep that in mind er because we have still three notices of motion on the panel on doctrine before we reach that. Thank you. [Hugh:] When we come to number four I notice a notice of motion in the light blue papers this morning on page sixty five there is an addendum to this in the name of Mr. Would it be the mind of the assembly we hear Mr now and we deal with this addendum?... Mr... [speaker007:] Moderator... one six two. The panel on doctrine are to be congratulated on their wise handling of the response of presbyteries and kirk sessions to the proposed new statement of faith.... However I would like to commen comment in my name in terms of my amendment on page sixty five of the blue paper... to deliverance four... on what seems to me their very seriously limited expression of the work of the holy spirit as guiding us only in our understanding of the bible.... While one takes into account the concern of Calvin and the reformers for the balance between the light of scripture and the inner light and direction given to individuals... an experience vouchsafe for... countless times in both the Old and New Testaments... also remembering our lord's own use of silence in prayer and I believe the increasing use of silence in modern worship... and may I also say how very impressed I was by Dr 's prayer at the opening of this assembly in which he asked for the guidance of God and indeed your own equally eloquent prayer on Sunday evening Moderator... open to the prompting and leading and guiding of God's spirit. And my comment would be that the spirit guides us in our understanding of the bible, needs to be augmented by the words... and in our daily lives... before the words renews us in the sacraments and calls us to serve God in the world. And I would move accordingly. I haven't arranged for a secondary. [Hugh:] Thank you Mr, is this seconded?... Thank you. Any comments or discussion on this amendment... or this addendum?... Could I then ask the convenor to respond to it please.... [Dr Stuart:] Moderator it may seem a little strange to resist this er addendum but I do so really because er it's never a good idea to er to be amending what is in a sense a liturgical piece of work on the floor of the house. Also more particularly because this particular bit of work has had such thorough examination by the presbyteries that it doesn't seem to er justify further tinkering with it at this stage. Er I don't think there's any limitation set in our statement on the work of the holy spirit. He unites us to Christ, he gives life, he renews us, he calls us to serve... I think these are all variations on the theme that Mr has in mind, and so I would resist this and hope the assembly will. [Hugh:] Thank you. We come now to vote on this addendum to deliverance... n number four and, since it is in print, we don't need to ask the clerk to read it out for us, so therefore as, ask those who wish to vote for this addendum would you please stand. The addendum to deliverance four.... Thank you. Those who wish to vote against this addendum would you please stand.... Thank you very much. We now come back to deliverance four as in print. Yes certainly.... [speaker008:] four eight two. Moderator I should like to move that a full stop be placed after the word commentary... and that the remainder of the words in the deliverance be deleted.... Moderator when the general assembly of nineteen ninety sent down the draft statement of faith, I and others were unhappy with it on a number of counts. It did not teach that men and women are made in the image of God. It excluded any mention of the virgin birth. It did not say anything about the fall. It did not unambiguously affirm the uniqueness of Christ. It did not do justice to the biblical doctrine of atonement. There was no clear teaching on faith and repentance. It did not define the authority of the bible in relation to the life of the church. It was weak in its doctrine of the holy spirit... and perhaps heretical in arguing that sanctification was by means of sacraments. It did not properly highlight the nature of the church or the church's mission to the world. On the doctrine of the last things it seemed to imply universalism. After two years of debate in the church, during which and many other points such as these have been raised, I confess to being deeply disappointed with the statement before us today. The statement before us is defective in almost exactly the same points as the draft statement, with only marginal improvements in these areas. Indeed I think we can say that it is worse than the draft statement because some of the good points in the original have been removed. For example reference to God's creation by his eternal word and spirit... removed. The idea that God directs the universe... removed. The notion that the incarnation was to fulfil the promise to Israel and to reconcile the world with God... removed. The fact that Jesus was obedient to the father's will... removed. The fact that Jesus bore the sin of the world, removed. The teaching that Jesus triumphed over all the powers of evil... removed.... The ascension and mediation of Christ... removed. The reference to justification, removed. The reference to the inspiration of scripture, removed. The promise that Jesus will return in power and glory, removed.... As we stood to say the apostle's creed during the communion service yesterday... a statement of faith which we share with every part of the Christian church throughout the world... I concluded that this statement was unnecessary. Not only do we already have such a statement in the apostle's creed, but theological it's in a different realm. Not only so, but I believe this statement to be deeply theologically inadequate and that various points to be at variance both with scripture and with the Westminster confession of faith... the standard and the principle subordinate standard of this church. Moderator we are in a day of theological confusion and disagreement. That surely has been testified to today when the very convenor of the panel on doctrine admits that he doesn't want the statements to be too clear so that they can be understood and used by people of radically different persuasions. If we do not know what we believe and cannot agree on what we believe, then is it not better to wait until we can and do. I urge the assembly to accept this amendment... to depart from this statement, to commend to our churches the use of the apostle's creed and to wait for a day of broad theological agreement which in the providence of God and by the work of the holy spirit will surely come... and then agree upon a statement of faith which we shall all agree and be able to commend enthusiastically to the church but until then... to depart from this one. Thank you Moderator. [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] Is... is that seconded?... Seconded. Now... Mr you called what you have just s spoken to... an amendment.... I have had my own opinion confirmed with the advice from the business convenor and the vice convenor, and that is that we determine that this is in fact a counter motion that you have spoken to because it is against the spirit of the deliverance. And since it is a counter motion, I will take it at the very end with any other counter motions, and therefore I am not asking the convenor to reply to it because if we had a vote on it at this stage, we'd either be... we, we would therefore be sealing completely this deliverance number four as it stands. And so therefore if anybody has amendments that they wish to make to the deliverance as it is, we will take them if necessary one by one and vote for them as they are presented to us, and then we'll come to any other counter motions that may be on hand. And you've been very kindly waiting there, come forward.... Amendments or addendums to number four. Thank you Moderator. nine hundred and ten. I have... I think it's an addendum... erm... to rewrite a particular phrase in the statement to become... he died on the cross for the sins of the world... and by his resurrection... as already in print.... I'd like to... I'd like to thank the panel for the work which they have done on this very difficult issue and, although the convenor has said that it is... perhaps a difficult thing to alter the text of such a document on the floor of the house, I think we also have to point out that this is our only opportunity to comment upon this particular draft... which will become a definitive draft if passed by the general assembly today. One which is going to be published and placed in the hands of people at large for their help in understanding the faith. And therefore it is only because I believe this particular phrase is quite literally to do with the very crux, the very cross, of our Christian understanding that I bring it before the general assembly. In the communion service we state quite clearly that Jesus died for the sins of the world. Not just because of not just because certain men at a certain place were sinful and crucified him unjustly... not just because of sin... but he died for the sin of the world, taking our sin in our place. A significant change has taken place in the wording of the statement, on this particular issue, from the original nineteen ninety draft... of which was produced by the working party of which I was convenor. In nineteen ninety, as indeed Mr has pointed out, there was a clear statement... a sta a clear phrase which said that Christ died for our sin. In the version here in nineteen ninety two, the death of Christ is coupled with the resurrection, and all that is said in this connection is that he overcame evil. Now this to my mind is just not clear enough on the very central feature of our faith. Is this referring to a moral triumph over injustice? Is it referring just to a triumphalistic idea of atonement... in which everything is just alright in the end? What we have to see is that Christ died not just as a self sacrifice... not just because of injustice... but he died as the atonement, to pay the price, for our sin. The statement does have a phrase in it in which it says that Jesus declared the forgiveness of sins... but there is an immense difference between declaring forgiveness and making forgiveness. An immense difference indeed. It was not just enough for God to declare forgiveness... but God had to do something in Christ for that forgiveness to come to be. If I could illustrate from two medieval theologians, the two traditions following them... in the Tomas tradition... righteousness and the moral law of God is seeing... is seen as being part of the very being of God himself. In the Scottish tradition, following upon our Scottish theologian Dun Scottas although not representing him properly, it says that righteousness and moral items are just to do with the will of God. God just decides that such and such is correct or such and such is wrong. And on the Scottish understanding, it is very easy for somebody to come along and say well jo God just now declares that we are forgiven. But we have a much deeper understanding than that. God had to do something on the cross, in Christ, in order that his love which he has for us as sinners might become forgiveness for us in reality. Paul in second Corinthians said that Christ became sin for us, a glorious exchange took place, something happened on the cross which was necessary. And this is the real reason why I feel that we must include a specific connection between the death on the cross and the sins of the world. I remember once the late professor G S Stuart reminding us that, in relation to the death of Jesus on the cross, we do not know how deep were the waters crossed, or how dark was the night that the lord passed through ere he found the sheep that was lost. We do not have any neat theory of the atonement, but we know this... that on the cross Christ died for our sins and for the atonement of the world.... [speaker003:] [applause] [Hugh:] Mr that's, Mr 's addendum is seconded?... Thank you. Any discussion on this particular... addendum?... Can I ask the convenor then to reply please. [Dr Stuart:] Moderator I I... as before I'm resisting this. I think the statement should really just be judged on its merits today as it stands. It's been through the presbyteries, it's been discussed and we report on what the balance of opinion is. Er I I would prefer not to be involved in elaborate discussion of the theology of involved. Er remember the emphasi it is a statement... a statement. A reform church should constantly be producing statements. It's not in any way in competition with... ni with er apostle's creed or anything else, it's a quite different er er er er animal. It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm... er er is erm... out of a different background and

[speaker001:] not in any way in competition with ni with er apostle's creed or anything else. It's a quite different er er er er animal. It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm... er er er is erm... out of a different background and that er... compiled in a different context altogether, it's polemic law so often, this is doxological. These are, we are saying here things that we rejoice to say and which we give glory to God. It just has that particular slant, that particular emphasis. So I would prefer to let you be the judge of it as it stands today. Any discussion, if we enter into any discussion, we start tinkering with it and er we don't know where we'd end. I leave it as it stands. [Hugh:] May I ask the clerk to kindly read the addendum since we don't have it in print.... [speaker003:] It is in the erm... statement of faith to substitute for the phrase by his death on the cross... the words he died on the cross for the sins of the world.... [Hugh:] Those who vote for that addendum would you please stand. Those who vote for.... Would you please sit. Thank you. Those who vote against would you please stand.... I declare it has been carried against.... Any other contributions on deliverance number four?... [Mr Boyd:] Ian number three two six. A, a, a brief amendment Moderator er... to the deliverance, not to the text of the statement. I have sympathy for the view of the convenor that it has been er revised er enough. Er it reads er to add to, an addendum to section four... further instruct the panel when addressing concern for a modern confession of faith, to give consideration to the difficulties involved in common confession of faith... today. Er I think the panel have er... admirably completed a difficult task in drawing together the, the statement of faith they have presented. Er I'm impressed that they are willing to er potentially consider a, a further difficult task in drawing up a confession of faith. Er... perhaps we have not, up until this point, considered just how difficult that task is. I think there are aspects of the world in which we live and, and er, in which the church lives which make common confession of faith particularly difficult er today. We tend to conceive er generally of faith very much in personal terms, we see it as personal faith. Er we think of the mission of the church very largely in terms of personal evangelism. Er I think in an age of such individualism er the whole natu nature and possibility of common confession of faith becomes difficult er and I'd simply ask that, if it's going to go ahead and consider possibly a confession of faith, that the panel er might give consideration to the difficulties gen gen generally involved in er the, the question of common confession of faith today. I move the amendment. [Hugh:] He now informs me that he's willing to accept that addendum. Is it the will of the assembly to accept that addendum?... Thank you. D Dr... [Mr Torrence:] Number sixty, G F. Moderator this is a, a new... er for a new five. [Hugh:] haven't approved of number four yet. [Mr Torrence:] Oh I'm sorry [Hugh:] We've still to, we've still to come to [Mr Torrence:] I'm sorry [Hugh:] the gap between four and five.... Thank you.... Any more addendums and... Are you making an amendment or an addendum? [Mr Forrester:] I just want to make a very brief comment first of all. [Hugh:] Yes certainly. Thank you. [Mr Forrester:] Number eleven, the name is Margaret. I should like to congratulate the panel on doctrine on the very difficult job they did in handling all these responses from kirk session. Our kirk session was one which objected very strenuously to the use seven times of the male... pronoun in the section on the holy spirit.... I think what they have done reads beautifully as English... is very profound theologically... and it uses language that is not gender specific. I congratulate them on that and hope that in the future they will carry on that practice. Thank you. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Now I'm going to come now, I think, it will be the mind of the assembly to take the vote on, for deliverance number four and Mr 's counter motion. And as I've indicated, I'm now going to ask the convenor to sum up.... You have the right of reply to Mr 's counter motion.... [speaker001:] Well Mr took a terrific swipe at us and I think I couldn't possibly enter into [LAUGHTER] the detail of controversy involved there. I th stick to my former line I think that... we've all had a look at this, er we, I believe it's a useful, serviceable instrument and I rest my case.... [Hugh:] Thank you.... Now could we just hear Mr 's counter motion again please Mr. Then I'll call a vote for the deliverance or against the counter motion.... [Mr Mcgilvery:] Moderator the counter motion is in section four as it stands to stop... in the second line after the word commentary. Delete all the words after commentary.... [Hugh:] Thank you.... Now we have the deliverance number four before us in print as the motion.... Could I ask those who wish to vote for the motion, deliverance number four as in print on page one eight five, to stand please.... Thank you. Those wishing to vote now for the counter motion in the name of Mr to please stand. Thank you. I declare that the motion has been carried, that is the deliverance as in print, number four on page one eight five. Now we've quite a... we, we have first of all, in the light green papers... notice of motion from Mr Ainsley of moving a new five. I've also heard Dr wishing to move a new five, Dr I think yours will be five B, and I call first of all on Mr. [speaker001:] Moderator [speaker008:] Mr six four eight. This brilliant piece of oratory which I have in my hand here, in addition to many other valuable insights, contains three alternative definitions of faith, two gentle digs at Professor, and one definitive statement of when the third millennium begins. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] However I am not so enamoured of the sound of my own voice that, bearing in mind what er Dr has said about the amount of business, I would insist on inflicting it upon it if someone would be prepared to second it and the convenor and the assembly be prepared to accept it. Accordingly I formally move it, but if the a that acceptance is not forthcoming, then I would have to deliver my speech.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Mr I really should say Ainsley, it's just like being back [LAUGHTER] in Trinity College [] with you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Could I have a comment from the convenor.... Simply to indicate... what your mind is. Not just [speaker001:] I think we'd be er prepared to accept this at, what's asked for is a feasibility study, no more than that in the first instance and I think we'd be prepared to accept. [Hugh:] Is it the mind of the assembly that we accept this? Thank you Mr for arranging your argument that way. Dr [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Dr you've a new number five.... [Mr Torrence:] Sixty, [Hugh:] So you've a new number six now [Mr Torrence:] This... very brief motion I've discussed with the convenor who will accept it and also... with the general secretary of worl of the board of the world mission who... was ready also to co-operate with it. The... my... proposal is simply this... consider the feasibility of a theological examination of anti-semitism.... Just like that, without any, any restriction. Now I do this sir, because last week... in the council of Christian and Jews in Edinburgh we had one of the profoundest meetings I've been at, in which very distinguished people, Jews... and er... er Christians... were concerned with the fact that anti-semitism, at the very bottom, is... anti-God, it opposed to revelation. And behind all... the ethnic and... sociological and other religious elements, there is something very deep, and this struck a deep chord with me. When I was a student in Germany... and encountering fierce anti-semitism... and a fierce anti-Jewish relations... I, I soon realised that at the back of this was a direct attack upon the concrete revelation of God in history through Israel and the church, which called in question German nationalism, German blood and soil. Now I believe that the time has come for us to think again about the theological side, the theological... er and I make this proposal... consider the feasibility of a theological examination... anti- semitism... and the convenor is ready to accept it... Thank you sir. [Hugh:] Thank you. Dr do you accept? [speaker001:] Yes, may I just say a word here [Hugh:] Yes you may.... [speaker001:] Moderator we, we do accept this but maybe I could er say just a word to the assembly about the workload as it were of this panel on doctrine. If you look at er... the erm... the er... papers, what's the book called, the order of proceedings, you'll discover that we are quite a small body of four... a convenor, vice convenor... four ministers... four elders... four others... and one representative from each of the four faculties erm of divinity.. from those members of the faculty who are members of the Church of Scotland. Now that number is small and decreasing it seems to me. Er furthermore er so the number upon whom we can draw is, is really minimal, and we do depend heavily on the help of the professional theologians, though we're all theologians you know I, I subscribe to the idea that we're all theologians, I won't listen to these people who say I'm no theologian. We're all theologians, but we do obviously depend heavily on the help of the professionals. Er that help is, there are fewer to draw from,i it's also far more difficult for them to spare the time, the pressures on the academics are considerable nowadays. So... er as I say we do accept this but we have to er be careful just how much we undertake, and mercifully on this case there is no time limit,a and also I think we have the assurance from the board of world mission and unity, that they and any others who are, have something to offer, will help us. So on that understanding I accept. [Hugh:] Is it the will of the general assembly so to accept... and approve?... Do you wish to speak against?... [speaker001:] I wish to suggest an addendum. [Hugh:] To Dr... 's... thank you.... [speaker001:] four four two. Moderator I declare my interest as a member of the panel on doctrine... but I wanted to enquire whether Professor would be willing to include... not only the problem of anti-semitism... but what seems to me to be the opposite problem which also exists today, which is the problem of Zionism. And I wonder if we do not need to enquire into the theological basis of both.... [Hugh:] Dr, would you include that within your statement? [Mr Torrence:] No... this would, this would be mixing up two very different things. [speaker001:] that's right. [Mr Torrence:] Like oil and water. [Hugh:] S so [Mr Torrence:] has to be done, I wouldn't agree with it. [Hugh:] I'm just asking... Professor for my own clarification at this stage, and it is that he does not agree to accept Mr 's addendum. And so... therefore I have to ask now... is there anybody willing to second Mr 's addendum? It is being seconded. Any discussion?... Then we have a vote as to whether to accept or not to accept Mr 's addendum. Could I ask the clerk to read it please... or to recall... oh sorry, the convenor, yes indeed.... [speaker001:] I tend, Moderator, to Professor 's view that this complicates the issue and we'd be better to deal with anti-semitism by itself first of all. [Hugh:] Shall we, shall we still, we... w w we still have the, the, the issue of voting now for or against Mr 's addendum. And I wonder if one of the clerks could just put it before us please.... [speaker003:] The... this amendment Moderator is simply to add to what we've already agreed... the er feasibility of a theological examination, not only on anti-semitism but also Zionism. [Hugh:] Those voting for Mr 's addendum on Zionism would you please stand.... Thank you. Those voting against.... It is carried against, and so I come back to the new... erm... section being proposed by Professor on anti-semitism and concurred by the convenor, Dr, and put it to the assembly. Is that approved by the assembly that that is then given to the panel as a new responsibility?... Now we come in the er blue papers page sixty five to the notice of two new sections six and seven in the name of... Mr, and I'd ask Mr to speak to these please.... David one six three. Moderator... I'm going to ask the general assembly to turn their mind to quite a different subject now. We've had baptism, we've had statement of faith, we've had anti-semitism... we're going to think now about intercommunion... all under the umbrella of the panel of doctrine. Moderator I refer commissions t commissioners to appendix two on page one hundred and ninety one of the blue book. There we read in line seven of the desirability of retaining a bilateral contact between our two churches on matters of doctrine... a desire express, I'm glad to note, by our Roman Catholic friends and that's good. Then in the last two lines of the appendix I read... the panel on doctrine seeks permission for the joint commission to meet twice yearly... as necessary... to study documents of doctrinal interest. I don't think that's quite so good and why... because of its evident ab absence of the note of urgency and its lack of specifics. Moderator... all the main line churches have recognized a divine call to unity throughout this century. But the century is fast running out. While there are glimmers of light... the establishment of ACT two years ago... increasing ecumenical activities at grass roots level, some referred to by Bishop this morning... I believe that the times require a note of urgency in our response to God's call. And God's world in its great need requires a visible sign that we are all truly united and no longer divided in our allegiance to Christ as lord.... Growing together is a step by step process. I say real progress has been made... but today I am asking you to think about the next step... a step that I am sure we all feel is at the heart of the matter... a transforming step... perhaps the critical step that will guarantee ultimate success in fulfilling god's loving will for his church. The next breakthrough to my mind... centres around the lord's table. Our Roman Catholic friends already recognize our common baptism into Christ. They recognize also that we are together the body of Christ in the world, I hear them saying so now. So it would seem logical that the invitation to the lord's table should be reciprocal, and why is it not? An Archbishop in the hierarchy has said to me recently... oh I feel the pain but Rome does not permit it. You've all heard that and I've heard it for about thirty years now. Now that reason without large expansion cannot satisfy fellow Christians. And is that really the case? Vatican two, in the decree on ecumenism number eight, certainly says that sharing in the sacrament should not be indiscriminate. I quote further... it should only be used to signify the unity of the church... and it should provide a sharing in the means of grace. The gaining of a needed grace sometimes commends it. Now all that from Vatican two and its decree. Now with that statement as guide, discretion is left to the local bishop. It is happening now not just occasionally but increasingly on the continent, but not yet here in Scotland. There is also the oft repeated argument that we should not sit down together at the table until after unity is accomplished. But I repeat... if we are united in a common baptism... united together as the body of Christ in the world... the primary union in Christ is acknowledged. Unity of organization which by its nature will be a very longterm matter... and unity in doctrines not of the substance of the faith, and we all know of significant divisions there, do not affect the central doctrine. And here I come to the crux of what I want to say.... What really matters is whether or not we all believe certain essentials about the sacraments. That the Lord Jesus is always the host at his table... present in our midst as we do as he commanded. That in and under the bread and wine, as Calvin put it, set apart from common use to this holy use to represent his body and blood, he feeds us with his very life... I in you and you in me, I the vine and you the branches. No chemical change takes place in the bread and the wine, nor in ourselves. Now that is accepted by all and I've discussed it recently I say with one of the Roman Catholic hierarchy.... Transubstantiation... now listen carefully... I have discovered this in conversation to be a matter of semantics... of words. I've said to my brother Roman Catholic... if what you are saying is that the substance of the godhead is in a mystery transferred into our substance... that is to say that we are recipitents... recipients in the sacrament of the divine life... then we go out in faith together believing the same essential. If that is so, and it does seem to be so, is it not time that we rejoice together while we are being nourished together at his table. I am asking today that our commissioners ask the Scottish bishops, in accordance with the permission granted in Vatican two's decree, to allow an open table on ecumenical occasions. Now note I'm not asking at this point in time for a general opening. Our own reform in the matter needs... clearer definition and our people need a lot of teaching and the panel could help us there. My fi five minutes are now just about up so I finish moderator [bell ring] by affirming that [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I'm allowed one more minute after the bell. I finish Moderator affirming that if we are in communion with Jesus Christ... we are necessarily in communion with one other. All other doctrines are very secondary to that, and the question is... are we to express that reality... or must we continue to obscure it.... We must express it for the world to see and to believe. I plead with our commissioners and their counterparts in the Roman Catholic side to concentrate on this issue and not to dally... for this I believe is the golden key to that greater, completer, richer and more effective church that is surely coming under God. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Is this seconded?... Thank you. Could I ask the convenor just to make a statement. It's not, it's not his summing up, it's just a point of clarification to indicate whether he may or may not accept this.... [speaker001:] Moderator I think I'm wholly in sympathy with this. One thing er pu puzzles me a little and gives me a little difficulty, that is... erm the addendum refers to an invitation to all baptised members. I imagine communicant members would make this a little easier.... [Hugh:] Mr any comment? I'd be happy about that. You'll be happy with that, thank you. And so we [speaker009:] Moderator [Hugh:] Yes? Of course you can, you're a delegate and entitled to speak Bishop at any time.... [speaker009:] one two eight nine I think. Er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] Twelve eighty nine sounds more historical. [speaker009:] Twelve eighty nine. I'm sure there's some awful battle where we got... er knocked about but still [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker009:] I hope that's not a... presage of what's gonna happen now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] I'm rather unprepared for this one admittedly, but it seemed to me that if you're quoting a member of the absent hierarchy, you might as well hear er from, from a present member. Erm... certainly I will carry back to my fellow bishops... what is expressed here, concern about the... question of sacramental intercommunion. I would like to say one or two things which might help in understanding. One is that it isn't all just a question of the Scottish hierarchy being thralled to Rome in such a way that it cannot do what it wants. Nor is it a question of our seeking a dispensation from the holy see... to accede to some request locally. The question that we are looking at is a question, not simply of discipline, but a matter that depends on our understanding, not just of the eucharist, but of the nature of the church. And so we're talking not just about sacramental communion, but ecclesial communion. And these are matters that we are, and will be for the future... the immediate future and perhaps for the more distant future... thoroughly engaged upon... because there are very deep questions here... and the sacramental one hinges upon the ecclesial one. Now as regards the actual... well perhaps I should add to that, that there are two principles if you like in the theological field which govern the practice of the church. One is the principle that given ecclesial communion, that ecclesial communion is represented, is signified, is sacramentalized, is celebrated... in, at the lord's table.... Now that is not to deny that it is in effect surely of bringing Christians together, but there are certain questions. At what point do you, in all honesty and sincerity... er... celebrate a sacrament which is a sacrament of giving unity as well as bringing unity forward. The other principle is the principle of particular need. In other words, sacramenta procta hominas the sacraments are for the good of men and woman, of course the hominas in Latin includes both, it's inclusive language for the sake of er well of certain persons who will be picking me up [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] And that is why there are occasions, particularly on the continent, when Christians from other denominations are positively welcomed at the table. Because the local church recognizes in the person of its priest or bishop... their need for the sacrament, and the unavailability of the sacrament within their own communion. And those two principles are the governing principles at present in the practice of the Catholic Church with regard to admission to the sacrament. Let me finish in a very positive note in saying that I'm as concerned as the speaker to which I reply that that day will be reached and reached soon, please God, when we can sit down together and share fully in the sacrament of the lord's supper. Thank you. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Any other... any other discussion?... Mr... [speaker003:] Moderator, thirteen forty two and convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. To remind the assembly that this is a matter which was raised I think by Mr a couple of years ago and when a very similar motion was accepted by the Board er asking us to raise this matter with the... the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Scotland, which we did... er we know that there has been attention paid to this by the, the hierarchy.... About six months ago, our deputy general secretary wrote to Monseigneur, the general secretary of the bishops conference, and er... told him that we hoped progress was being made, referred in particular to the degree of consensus that had been... a arrived at in the baptism eucharist and ministry document and er also to the difference that had been made by the coming into being of ACTS and its commission on unity faith and order... and we had a reply to that er a letter from Monseigneur assuring as that the hierarchy were taking this seriously, that they were discussing it er [clears throat] amongst themselves in Scotland and were also in discussion with Rome on the subject as well. Er and as would have been noted in the... in our report to this general assembly on page four hundred and nine, we say at the end of er the paragraph in the middle of the... the page in which we are referring to ACTS and its commissions, in this connection it should be noted that the church's approach to the Roman Catholic bishops conference of Scotland on the question of intercommunion is under discussion in that conference and in the ACTS commission on unity faith and order. So although there is not as yet any definitive question, any definitive answer to this same question which was raised by Mr a couple of years ago, it is under consideration and we would hope that the sort of answer which he is hoping for might be forthcoming from that source. [Hugh:] If the convenor is willing to accept this and I'm aware of the time, if anybody wishes to strongly speak to a new point or a new angle on this matter, I'd really prefer to call on the convenor to sum up. Would that be the will of the assembly? Thank you.... [speaker001:] Moderator it's a great joy to hear Bishop speaking in this particular context on this subject. He and I enjoy very happy ecumenical relations and personal friendship and we've argued this out in our respective cathedrals before now. Erm I, he has these two principles and we respect them. I think there are other two principles though which I hope you would feel we er should respect. One is that erm in this matter, especially the matter sacramental, we are always anticipating... when every time we celebrate the lord's supper we anticipate... the marriage feast of the lamb. We don't wait till the kingdom comes before we celebrate, we celebrate now in joyful anticipation. Our lord taught us to pray er er give us this day our daily bread but we all know when we've read our commentaries that the word epusios means of tomorrow, give us today the bread of tomorrow. And therefore I think this principle of anticipation i is also an equally valid er er principle that we, we should er er look forward in faith to the day when we celebrate, and on occasions we should be able to anticipate that unity. Furthermore, we believe that the very celebrating of the sacrament does bring us more speedily on the way to that longed for unity. I think it's quite proper for us to be importunate and hammer on the door and say it again as, as the deliverance would have us say, and I'm sure our Roman friends will understand our importunity.... [Hugh:] Now to the assembly these new sections six and seven, is it the mind of the assembly to accept these? Thank you. Is it the mind of the assembly to accept the deliverance as amended as a whole now? Thank you. Dr before we pass to other business, I would like to thank you very much indeed for all the work that the very small size panel on doctrine has carried out for the good of the assembly and the work of the church. Thank you. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] A call for the report on the Board of Social R Responsibility.... [Mr Boyd:] Moderator four hundred and seventy five.... Moderator I reported to the general assembly last year that the Board of Social Responsibility had planned a deficit on its operation of thirty eight eventide homes... amounting to a little over two million pounds. At that time I explained that although the Board's weekly rate on these homes was low, due to our policy of not charging any element for capital in the rate we calculate, the Department of Social Security made available to elderly people in residential care in the community an allowance in that year of forty pounds and in this present year of fifty five pounds per week... below the cost of such care in any of our homes where the cost is already artificially depressed. The Board's policy of completely absorbing all capital costs and charging nothing for income on capital amounts on average to a subsidy of ninety six pounds per resident per week. And the Board thinks there's a reasonable subsidy to offer to its elderly residents. It is with considerable regret that I now have to tell the general assembly that although other parts of the Board's work, and the Board's investicl invested capital have performed well from a financial point of view, the anticipated deficit on thirty eight eventide homes has been sustained. Representations have been made and are being made to her majesty's government. We see this underfunding of eventide care as limiting the choice available to people who have come to that point in their lives when they're making decisions about the sort of care that they will next require. It is our hope that the Department of Social Security will move in keeping with the findings of the all party parliamentary select committee on social security to correct this underfunding before the responsibility for meeting the cost of residential care in the community is transferred from the D S S to local authorities a year from now. In the meantime, the Board is looking for ways to fund the deficit should it continue, but has decided not to charge the deficit as an additional burden upon those residents who are able to pay their own way from their own resources, and not to move from its established principle of offering care to those most in need towards a degenerate policy of offering care only to those who are most able to pay. Needless to say, needless to say this deficit has not involved any additional call whatsoever upon the mission and aid fund of the church... from which the Board receives an annual contribution of around four hundred thousand pounds towards its overall budget of twenty million pounds. Moderator that works out at a contribution of seventy five pence per minute towards the actual cost of our operation of forty pounds and twenty three pence per minute. The Board has met the deficit entirely from its own resources and has had to budget, as I've said, a continuing deficit into the current financial year. All other parts of the Board's work have been budgeted within acceptable limits. And I should say to the general assembly that the Board's four homes for people with senile dementia are differently funded and any deficits there are made up by grants from health boards and social work departments which are prohibited from making up the deficit in eventide care. During nineteen ninety one the Board has been delighted to open new areas of work in Inverness where our first designated place and associated hostel was opened on a most happened happy day by Sir Russell. In Elderslie near Paisley... where Lady the wife of last year's Lord High Commissioner opened our fourth senile dementia unit. In Haddington in, in East Lothian where Tyne Park House now offers a mental health service within that county. But while new projects were opening, the Board was forced to depart from its Shetland Islands project which had been undertaken at the invitation of the Shetland Islands Council and the Island Council Charitable Trust. This work was undertaken on the assurance from the Council and Charitable Trust that those bodies would resp would, would respect the Board's employment policy. In the event, although both... Charitable Trust and Council had given assent to the first advert on the policy agreed, they baulked at the second wave of recruiting, and sought to change the basis of our agreement. Even going to the length of alleging in the public press that it was the Board which was in breach of its contract. As we indicate to the general assembly in the printed report, the Board could have insisted on its rights under contract made with those bodies and the Board was confident that it would have won any action in the courts. But to pursue this matter would have delayed for some years the opening of much needed services. It is nonetheless a matter of deep regret that the Board has had to depart from this project... and that the first of these care centres on Whalsay, which would have been opened in November nineteen ninety one had the agreement been left unaltered, was still not open at the beginning of this month. Nonetheless, we take some satisfaction from the knowledge that the involvement of the Board did break the logjam at the earlier stage of this project, and we're able to report that the Shetland Island Council Charitable Trust has recognized the work of the... done by the Board in its final settlement of its account with us. Last year the general assembly decided nem con without demur... on the advice of the assembly council that the Board of Social Responsibility should move away from the church's office in George Street. And we now report that the arrangements towards this move are well on track for execution this year, some time ahead of the timescale that we indicated last year. This will liberate much needed space in one two one, and enable the Board to bring together its central administration in one place for the first time ever. In this time of new opportunity, as the Board is making arrangements to move to its new home and looking to developments in every area of service, we've also recognized that opportunities abound for local parish initiatives to attract funding from a variety of places. For this reason, the Board has sought to liaise with such local initiatives and to ensure that wherever possible, the expertise and experience of the Board will be made available to them. One area in which local initiatives within the church have proved invaluable has been in the delivery of service to people with H I V or AIDS and to their families, and to their loved ones. Last year the general assembly gave to the Board of Social Responsibility a task of coordinating the work of the church in this field and we are proud now to be able to report to the general assembly that the work done by the assembly's various Boards and by numerous local initiatives make the Church of Scotland the nation's leading provider of services to the victims of H I V and to their families... delivering both the most extensive and the most comprehensive service to these people within Scotland.... Although the church has traditionally been reluctant to expose those to whom it delivers this service to public attention, the general assembly ought to know of the scale of the kirk's response. And I pay tribute now to all those parish and local church initiatives, to all the work done by the major Boards of the church and of course, to those who deliver the service... on behalf and in the name of the Board of Social Responsibility.... In the field of addiction to alcohol and other drugs, the Board has been glad to see the wholly responsible position taken by the National Union of Students in its response to the pressures on young people to drink. The Board has been delighted to congratulate her majesty's government er in its insistence that factors such as public order should be taken into account in the fixing of a Europe wide alcohol pricing policy. And in response to the growing number of women presenting with problems associated with alcohol dependence, the Board in its report this year makes some moderate and practical proposals about the way in which alcohol might responsibly be marketed. It is... in its work on health and healing, the Board of Social Responsibility has for some years now been concerned with the provision of training conferences for ministers and others involved in this aspect of the church's commission. When this particular work was added to the Board's remit, it was our intention to offer the church advice under our social interest section and important reports were prepared and submitted to the general assembly and accepted. But the Board now asks the general assembly to look again at this part of our remit and to form a judgment about where this work should be most effectively done in future. We ask the general assembly to remit to the assembly council to give attention to the placing of health and healing within the overall work of the church and to report to next year's general assembly on where they think this remit should most effectively be discharged. In nineteen ninety... the general assembly instructed the panel on doctrine to consider anew the question of the Christian doctrine of marriage, and to undertake this work in consultation amongst others with the Board of Social Responsibility. This consultation has been effected through the Board's own study group on family matters, whose work the Board reports to this general assembly. The Board is happy to commend this work to the church and directs the church's attention to the contemporary statement of the Christian ideal of the family contained within that report. In making these statements the church is not standing aloof from the unconverted... instructing them on how they ought to live their lives... rather the church is speaking to itself, holding before all its members the id the ideal of what we believe God has taught in his word about the way in which people ought to live. In that sense, our failure to measure up to that ideal can be seen, can be measured, can be understood, and the strength of the holy spirit can be sought as we all strive in his power not to fail in future. And in saying this sort of thing to its own members, the church also invites the rest of the community to find for itself, people within the community to find for themselves, the positive benefits of living in obedience to the word of God. In addition to this major report on the Christian family, which is the Board's contribution to the twin track work with the panel on doctrine, the Board also offers an interim report on young people in the media, and its final report presaged at last year's general assembly on ritual abuse. Moderator in commending these reports to the general assembly and in particular, in presenting its work on ritual abuse, the Board is conscious of its deep indebtedness to those who have looked on its behalf at the mixture of evidence and conjecture on this most disturbing area of modern human depravity.... Moderator it's hard within the space of these few minutes to give a sense of the breadth of the Board's work. And in focusing on some problem areas it's possible to fail to give an impression of the enormous privilege it is to serve the church and her lord in social responsibility. But I would not be true to myself if I did not record my own thanks to all who serve on the Board... for their hard and devoted work... and at this time, to take a moment to thank the retiring vice convenor Bill for his work, his prayers, his support, his wisdom and his fellowship over the many years that he and I have served together. Moderator I submit the report and I move the deliverance. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Is it seconded? [speaker001:] Seconded. [Hugh:] Questions to the convenor? Yes? [speaker001:] ... [Mr Torrence:] nine hundred and forty. My question concerns the Shetland Island project and the question is this... how much has the withdrawal of the Board of Social Responsibility from the Shetland Islands project got to do with the Board's policy on... social responsibility appointed staff being sympathetic to the Christian faith, and how much has it got to do with the fact that the Shetland Islands Council no longer need the Board of Social Responsibility to be able to spend charitable trust money, in other words oil money, without jeopardizing community charge support grant? I was six and a half years the, the minister of Whalsay and Skerries where the first... er... centre h ha has been built and there was rejoicing in that community that the... that social responsibility had been invited by the council to join in this work. And er at that time when it was being mooted the, the council could not spend this charitable trust money without putting into jeopardy vast sums of money from revenue grant [Hugh:] speaker that you've put your questions... and I think they're sufficiently clear for the convenor to reply.... [Mr Boyd:] Yes Moderator Mr is known to the Board and his support was greatly appreciated erm when these projects were being mooted. Erm I don't know the answer to his question but I think he's put his finger upon a point.... [Hugh:] Further questions? Thank you. [Mr Forrester:] seven three two. I have a brief question and one comment. I look with pleasure to see that the asse [Hugh:] Please may I ask you sir to... limit yourself to your question. [Mr Forrester:] Yes well... the, the question is that I notice in the assets that investments at cost were twenty five million, the present market value is twenty eight million, indeed since that's been written it may even be more... and when I looked down to the other side of the accounts, I noticed interest on capital of twelve hundred and four pounds... and I wonder where the interest from the twenty eight million has gone to. Erm I s suspect that it's er the one million two hundred and forty two thousand transfer from general operating reserve... is that figure... but may I make one comment [Hugh:] your question... only [Mr Forrester:] That's the question [Hugh:] ... Convenor will reply. [Mr Boyd:] Yes Moderator the commissioner is mistaken, the investments at cost were seventeen million nine hundred and ninety seven pounds two hundred and ten. Erm the market value he's right to say is now twenty eight million two hundred and twenty four pounds er two hundred and twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty four pounds erm and that's what's happened to the interest. It's, it's, it's marched with the capital and that's why erm the capital value of our investments is so much higher than the cost. [Hugh:] Thank you. [speaker001:] one comment [Hugh:] No questions only at the moment. There are a great many deliverances in due course to consider.... [speaker010:] Five four eight. Er Moderator you'll probably not let me speak either [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] but this is a quite serious problem and er I don't, I don't apologise for it because... this is what's known as a donor card. Now this assembly... can I get a couple of minutes please? [Hugh:] Can you put your question. [speaker010:] Yeah I, but I mean I've... but I've got to give you a small... area of background. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Well it's a very important subject. [Hugh:] Let er me hear the question and I shall know if a background is required. [speaker010:] You won't understand the question without a [speaker001:] Moderator Mod Moderator [speaker010:] a wee [speaker001:] Moderator questions are asked for clarification of points in the report at this stage, they're not asked, it's not general questions that we're into. [speaker010:] I, I mean I can understand all this but I'm, I'm just asking [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] I'm, I'm asking, I've been here since Saturday [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] now I've sat here [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [speaker010:] I've sat here patiently, and I've lifti I've listened to all the briefly's... and I think I'm due a brief word to the assembly [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] on this particular item which to me is very important. There are people on waiting lists, and I just want the chance to say something on this subject which will take two minutes.... [Hugh:] You you're chance will come in due course sir when we're making comments but at the moment it's just [speaker010:] But I'm just now Moderator. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I mean [speaker010:] If I don't g [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I [speaker010:] I just [Hugh:] I think having... I think having waited so patiently for so long that you can wait a little lo further. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [Hugh:] I must as ask [speaker010:] What [Hugh:] you to... retain your seat meantime sir. [speaker010:] Could, could you give me a shout when I'm due? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [Hugh:] I [LAUGHTER] I er [speaker010:] This is really this is really just in case I fall asleep. [Hugh:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I couldn't possibly forget you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Thank you. [Hugh:] Further questions. Yes [Mr Mcgilvery:] three one four. I'd... I'd like to know the, the, the Board's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Mr Mcgilvery:] [LAUGHTER] I'd like to know the Board's position on fostering. I ask this question purely and simply because of all the children's homes that are being closed, and these children need a caring and a happy home life... and could the Board encourage church members to become foster parents? [Hugh:] An answer will come, yes?... [Mr Boyd:] Yes Moderator. Erm it's now some years since the Board departed from most of its work with erm in children's homes, I think we have only one children's home now operating in Stonehaven. Erm at that time erm we did erm report at some length on the question of fostering and exactly what the commissioner's asked for was the burden of the advice that we gave.... [speaker008:] Moderator [Hugh:] Yes? [speaker008:] Er eighty seven. Er this is a, this is a question concerning something which is not mentioned here, which I think should have been. Erm... the complete absence of any emphasis... er in the deliverances on erm... child abuse... er child sexual abuse... which is a most horrible sin. This was er reported on... a couple of years ago but we've heard nothing since, is there any action? [Hugh:] The convenor will answer, yes? [Mr Boyd:] Yes moderator, erm last year, two year's ago the general assembly a very major report from the Board of Social Responsibility on the question of child abuse. Erm we have produced a study pack which has been extremely well used within the church erm and is still being extremely well used. It also contained erm guidelines erm er from Lord the then procurator now Lord Penrose erm on the way in which ministers ought to respond in cases of child abuse. Erm having produced that report and having erm er done the follow up on it, it doesn't seem to me that it would be reasonable for the general assembly to expect that the Board would come back year after year with repetitions of what we've already said, and that's why the commissioner notices that erm we don't report this year on child abuse. [Hugh:] Thank you. Someone here I think? Yes please... [speaker001:] twelve thirty three, and if you look you'll see I'm from Orkney. I, I'm a general practitioner and I would like to back up initially what the convenor has said about the study pack that has come on child abuse but I have a question. [Hugh:] Could you put the question first please. [speaker001:] The question is why is there no mention in the paper on ritual abuse... er of the use of general practitioners to assist ministers in areas of difficulty?... [Hugh:] Thank you.... [Mr Boyd:] Yes Moderator I'm grateful to the commissioner for the, for the question. Erm again this is something on which we've already advised ministers and in the context of the, the report on ritual abuse, specifically refers to the as,a as, as the context in which it's offered, to the c erm report on, on child abuse.... [Hugh:] Any further... questions?... Yes? Please... Er I'll call you next, yes? [speaker001:] one O six O. Moderator could the convenor tell us why the Board wishes to be discharged its remit on health and healing when it's been so successful in bringing this to the notice of the whole church?... [Mr Boyd:] grateful to Mr for his very erm generous en endorsement of the work that the Board has done on health and healing. As I said in pre presenting the Board's report, when this matter was first given to us, we were invited to advise the general assembly on matters relating to health and healing, and that we did. At that time the general assembly didn't remove the remit from us and so we were emboldened by being allowed to continue erm to run some training conferences for ministers and others in the church who were involved in sharing this ministry of healing within the nation. However th th the fit of that training work for ministers and others within the church has sat less and less easily with the Board's commission to advise the church, and that's our social interests commission, to advise the church erm on matters of social, ethical or moral importance within its remit. And so because of that sense of ill ease of fit, we decided that perhaps it would be appropriate for the assembly council to look at where this work ought to most comfortably go. If the assembly council decides to report to next year's general assembly that the Board of Social Responsibility is the best of all possible places for this work in training and advising ministers and others on health and healing, then we'll happily accept that.... But I don't think that will be the finding of the assembly council. [Hugh:] Thank you. Yes? Please [speaker001:] er eleven ninety. Could I... ask a couple of questions about the section on family matters Moderator? Erm... I'd like to thank the er... the Board for this er helpful part of the report. First of all I'm looking at page three hundred and fifty in the blue book.... At the end of paragraph four three two.... Er where the report has been pointing out the cost, not just in financial terms, but in terms of, of hurt and unhappiness of a home breaking up, a family breaking up. I'd like to ask the convenor erm how would he have... er replied to a young woman who came to me fairly recently whose husband had just left home by mutual... agreement, and for the sake of their children... and er she said to me after he had gone er that the home was a much happier place now that there was, they had been freed from the tension that they had been going through in a very difficult time. The children are no longer worried about dad coming home drunk or arguments between er husband and wife. Erm I appreciate the point that the Board's making about... the hurt caused by broken families but how pastorally would one respond to this case? [Hugh:] Thank you.... Yes reply.... [speaker001:] Moderator nine eight O, the convenor of the... study group on family matters. Erm... naturally that is a problem that er exists and er people presumably divorce because of the pressures and problems that are there. If I could lead you from that paragraph on page three fifty over to page three six four... page three six four, one two three, four paragraphs from the top... it's ab it's the second of two paragraphs that begins the Board affirms the church's th that Christ teaches that marriage is special and divorce is not the way he would wish for his people and then this sentence... no-one would wish to condens condemn someone to stay in a marriage which is beyond redeeming. We are not trying to say that divorce is never the answer. What we are trying to argue for is... to try to prevent the cost, the pain, the hurt that is experienced after a divorce by alerting people to the fact that a divorce won't solve all their problems, it will transfer one set of problems for another... and our great concern in this report is to go back one step, not just to speak to people who are experiencing hurt, but in the hope that we can say something before it reaches the stage that it had reached when they came to you. Thank you.... [Hugh:] on the se separate part of the report please Moderator. Erm... looking now at page three hundred and fifty seven... er paragraph seven three two... oh seven three one and seven three two, page three hundred and fifty seven... where the report makes the point that er... when... legal proceedings are entered into they tend to create further barriers and make it m less and less likely that th there can be conciliation between estranged partners... erm and paragraph seven three two points out a growing need fo or speaks of a growing need for conciliation. Erm... what place... erm... does the convenor see being made in the legal processes to make available to estranged couples the opportunity for erm... voluntary conciliation between the parties? Erm i is there opportunity in our legal system at the moment or are there movements that way? [Mr Boyd:] Moderator I think er Mr wants us to go back to the words reconciliation. Conciliation is used in this technical sense when the couple have reached the stage where they've agreed there is no possibility of reconciliation and they are now seeking to make arrangements, for example, about er the children and about money. Er and so you you're question is a good one, what about reconciliation? And our great concern is that people in Scotland should know that the possibility of reconciliation exists. They don't about that when they're in the middle of a dramatic crisis and they've fallen out and perhaps the only thing they know about is... how to go about getting a divorce and you see a lawyer and so on. Well we want to say there is hope. As Christians we've discovered about reconciliation in our own lives and we know the need of it in lots of areas in human relationships. Erm in terms of er forcing people to have it, well you can't... er somebody has to want to, to look at the possibility... so that we would er er let people be aware there are, there are secular organizations like er... er in England it's Re er er it's Relate, er marriage guidance, Scotland, still called that in Scotland. The there are parish ministers who are willing to listen and long before it reaches the stage of lawyers and divorce. Does that answer the question?... Thank you. [Hugh:] Thank you very much. Yes?... [speaker003:] Eric one one O two. I would like to ask the convenor, with relation to one three on page three hundred and forty... concerning the Christian ideal of marriage... why not mention is menti is made there of the importance of the family worshipping and praying together.... [Mr Boyd:] Erm if I knew the pages in the report as well as I... try to know my bible I could point you to another place Moderator where er

[speaker001:] oh I'd suggest, with respect, that it should be included in a footnote to that affect so that the simple minded like myself when they see... well... cost value of, as... almost eighteen million and a present day value of twenty eight million and over and look again at twelve hundred and four pounds I say where is the money gone? I think if there's, if there's a reason for not showing it there I think I comment to the bottom would satisfy most people. [Hugh:] Thank you.... [speaker001:] Yes Moderator the Board's erm published accounts are prefaced by some comments on the accounting conventions that are used.... [Hugh:] Thank you. Number three.... Number four.... Number five.... Number six. [speaker003:] Moderator... [Hugh:] I was going to call you now because of the national health [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] but you've preempted me. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] I'm awake. And [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] I'm still five four eight. Right.... Now don't be too surprised if this sounds like a question. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [speaker003:] Now... I've learned, I've been since Saturday as I told you and I've, I've learned how to make a good question.... Now what you've got to do is use the correct words and phrases... and these are... finally [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] briefly [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] now I thought I knew what that word meant until I came to the assembly. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] [speaker003:] It seems to me... in conclusion... important... Right a wee bit of background will help the assembly understand my being here. Now I had a kidney transplant in nineteen eighty four. The assembly made a very good decision in nineteen ninety to support the transplant programme. The assembly passed it to presbyteries and they in turn passed it on through their billets to ministers who in turn were supposed to pass it to sessions and it was supposed to be discussed at session level and turned down to ordinary congregations. Now unfortunately, that's how it should of worked... but the message got lost down the line somewhere. Now these messages remind me of the old Tarzan movies, now you were all old enough now to remember the old Tarzan movies. In the old Tarzan movies they used drums, and they also used natives... and the warriors carried a stick, they called it a forked stick... and it looks like the assembly might need a new set of forked sticks [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] because these messages keep getting lost between here and the congregation.... The kidney transplant waiting list could have been reduced remarkably if the Church of Scotland had done their job properly. Now that is a good story for the press. It's not a bad one it's a good one. So finally, briefly and in conclusion [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] This is where my question was coming... I ask the convenor why the committee failed to follow up their good work by not promoting the kidney donor cards through ministers to the congregation. Now we, let's say for instance we've got five hundred thousand members of the church, and they in turn have a circle of friends and relatives of ten... now you don't need to be a mathematician to find out that's five million. So that everyone in Scotland could have been covered and given the opportunity to carry a donor card. Now all churches should carry a supply of cards,t at all their functions... even the general assembly. And I'm not just quite finished because I was gonna put a wee P S in, why don't we have the assembly at the S E C C? Because you've no stairs, you've got no hills and you've got bags of wee places to put your motor. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [applause] I, I'm looking to see if Dr 's there because if he were me, or if I was him, I would say what the commissioner alleges is neither known nor admitted. Erm the Board has not failed to follow up its very good work. In fact it has followed it up with an absolutely excellent study pack which has been very widely used within the church. It has followed it up because I personally and other members of the Board and er and members of our staff have accepted invitations to go and speak to presbytery conferences on human transplants. I've been as far a a places as far apart as the presbytery of erm Annandale and Esdale which is to, what to south of Scotland, erm and I can't think of any corresponding place erm in the north but there have been places in the north that I've also gone to, and this is my donor card. And I... I, I, I commend this to the church and I, and I'm glad the commissioner had a chance to come back and speak again about his concern about erm the waiting list for transplants. Please carry a donor card, please discuss it with your relatives, please discuss it with your congregation, please ensure... that in the event of tragedy overtaking you... your relatives know... your views in advance on transplant surgery. And if it is your, your view that y y your, your organs may be used in, in advance, and if that's known to your relatives it'll make a very very difficult time for them a great deal less difficult than it might have been otherwise. [Hugh:] Thank you. Thank you very much. [speaker001:] [applause] [speaker003:] Moderator I'd just like to thank the convenor. [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I hope you feel your intervention has been worthwhile and has borne fruit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Hugh:] I was proving to the convenor that I'd made a mark opposite that deliverance on which to call you. So he can prove it's true. [LAUGHTER]... Can we pass then to number seven? On number eight Dr has erm... an addendum I think.... [speaker004:] Er fifty five. Moderator I've asked for this new clause to come in immediately after seven because of what in accepting seven we've just done. We have welcomed what the Board are doing, and we've encouraged them to find new ways of doing so more in meeting the needs of the elderly who increase in numbers here in Scotland. Now they cannot possibly do these things without becoming painfully aware, as I am sure they are already, of the problems arising through lack of financial... er er financial sufficiency or poverty among the old people. Now let me read the words for the s benefit of those who don't have them... add new section eight and rem renumber eight urge his majesty's government to give continuing and careful concern to the many situations in which lack of financial resources are still causing elderly people grave hardship. Having read that I immediately repent me in dust and ashes for having committed a dreadful grammatical error. I was so caught up in my plurals or situations in hardship that I didn't notice that the subject in more senses than one is a singular lack, and the verb should be is and not are, therefore I must ask the indulgence of the general assembly to change the verb. I don't think it needs to go down under the barrier act. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker004:] Moderator... it can't be very often that a young minister contradicts a giant of the church in open assembly... but it did happen several years ago. In fact if the previous speaker has complained about waiting in patience, I have waited forty years to tell this story in the assembly... because a young minister flatly contradicted a giant of the church, Dr John, the protagonist of national church extension. What happened was that he was a giant of the church indeed, and he behaved as one. I remember wickedly making a note at one assembly of the number of times he spoke and believe it or not the total was sixty seven. And I'm not setting that up as a record to be broken or a [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] or a target to be aimed at because when I saw the sixty seven I remembered it's the number of the song that begins lord bless and pity us. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Now how did a giant of the church get himself into such a position? In presenting the report to the national church extension committee, he made the astonishing statement that there is no longer any dire poverty in Scotland. Now how on earth did he say such a thing? He was falling into the trap of the enthusiast of overstating his case. It was a good case... he wanted us to remember that there's a hunger for the word of God... and that what we should be worried about was... poverty in the things of the spirit... but he made the blank statement... and it shocked one young man called John who at the time was the minister of a church extension charge in one of our deprived housing situations. He went straight out, went to four families, whose names immediately suggested themselves to him, checked his facts and figures, got in while... discussion was still on and flatly contradicted the great John and gave him the facts and figures to prove it, to tell him that he was wrong. What on earth has this got to do with my motion? Simply this... that any government of any colour, at any level, central or local... and any organization charged with the responsibility of meeting the needs of elderly people... which proceeds on the tacit assumption or makes the blatant assertion that there is no longer any poverty in Scotland is requiring to be contradicted because it is not true. [speaker001:] [applause] [speaker004:] I haven't used the word poverty... I've used a phrase about lack of financial resources because it relates more obviously and directly to many of the concerns of the Board for example almost certainly the real reason why there was no room in the inn at Bethlehem is that the income of a village... carpenter didn't go near the exorbitant prices being charged by mine host when, to use the good Scots phrase, the cow calved and there was this boom over the crows for the census. In other words, lack of financial resources can contribute to homelessness and it does. And in all our consideration about homelessness to which the report rightly refers, we must remember that lack of financial resources is a contributory factor and how many in the assembly know that while we naturally think, in homelessness, of our tragic young people, five per cent of the homeless are elderly. Like the exiled Scots sitting up in bed with his cap on in Sidney Royal Infirmary, asked by the retired sister who visited people like him who had no friends how old he was, he says ninety two. Oh where do you live? Central station, platform six. Contributing to homelessness. Moderator if... the Board wanted a patron saint, my sole nominee would certainly be the good Samaritan cos he got it right. He was faced with a situation where he had to deliver a service, to use the jargon of social work which has dropped into their report. He went not to collect particulars and feed them into a computer, he went to get down on his knees and get himself covered in mud and blood. He did not qualify him for income support, he supported him on to the back of his ass, he took him to the inn. He took care of him and the Greek verb means that he literally took total charge of his case, in other words he probably stayed up all night nursing him, and so he made the inn into temporarily a nursing home and we're back into another area of the Board's concerns. But he gave two pence, how miserable can you get? But put the two pence in their contemporary context. We know from the parable of the labourers in the vineyard that one penny or one donarius was an accepted whole day's wage for a twelve day in the heat of the sun... in the great harvest, so the two pence was the equivalent of two days' wages. Now bring it back to the modern time of the five day week, what is two fifths, or what are two fifths of the wage? At the end of last year the national average wage in the manufacturing industries would give you, for two fifths, one hundred and fourteen pounds. [bell ring] What does a pensioner get?... Now a pensioner, over eighty and in poor health, possibly requiring special food that costs more, certainly requiring extra heating in cold weather, will get sixty three pounds twenty. And if anybody thinks that with reasonable budgeting you could manage on sixty three twenty, I challenge you to do a little personal budgeting. You've got no... savings... you've got no relatives you can fall back on, you have no other source of income... and you've got to pay for everything off of sixty three twenty. So what in fact happens? I'm not going to leave you with statistics, they don't get me any longer, I've developed an immunity to statistics, thank God. There are a hundred and seventy thousand people in Scotland who qualify for income support, whether they get it or not is not the point, but that's the size of the problem. And what happens in actual human situations which are what get me, and I'm going to give you three... and I guarantee their genuineness... you will doubt them all I have not the least fear... but I guarantee you their genuineness, they come from the records of Age Concern Scotland of which I am the president. Here are a couple who are doing very awkward cooking over an open fire... because their cooker has packed in and they can get a new one only in terms of a loan which is compulsorily payable by deduction from their, from their pension every week and they've a Scot's dread of debt. Here are a couple who must be just rejoicing in this kind of weather because when it's cold the only way they get warm is to take their shoes or boots off and go into bed in the early evening with all their clothes on.... Here is a little old woman in her upper eighties, never been married, no relatives, outlived all her generation. Her boon companion is a cairn terrier called Sandy and Sandy's leash is her lifeline. Sandy takes her for walks, not the other way round. And because she happens to live reasonably near a park, she walks Sandy or Sandy walks her in the park, she meets other dog... walkers and they are her human contacts. Sandy means an awful lot in that old lady's life and she does occasionally reach the point when she's got so little money left that believe it or not she has to choose between buying food for herself and buying dog food for Sandy. Now don't say it's a silly, sentimental story, that's what poverty means in real terms to actual people. Three years ago when the new regulations came into force the then Secretary of State for Social Security said this means the end of the era of poverty.... Now... John was not afraid to tell somebody as great as John that he was wrong... and I see no reason why this general assembly should be afraid or inhibited about telling the authorities that they are wrong. If and when they work on the tacit assumption or make such a blatant assertion as that, that there is no longer any poverty, because it is not true... and unless and until it is true neither they nor we have got any right to be content. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Is that seconded? [speaker001:] Seconded. [Hugh:] The convenor I think is willing to accept this.... [speaker001:] Yes Moderator. Erm er I'm very grateful to Dr and I'll offer him another story, a woman who's now died whom I used to visit who sat with her coal fire set but not lit until someone would come to the door. She'd always say she'd just put coal in the fire. That kind of situation, Dr is entirely right to say to the general assembly, that kind of situation is utterly unforgivable, it's utterly unforgivable. Next year I'll report to the general assembly erm, if all things are equal, that the Board will by then have set up a scheme to allow care workers to go out from our... erm residential establishments into the community to extend the kind of professional service that we're able to give in our establishments to people who live in the community. That's something that will need to be financed and it's something which the Board will need to find the money to do. I, I in no way want to resist Dr 's erm er addendum, I hope that the general assembly will simply erm accept it by acclaim. [Hugh:] Will the assembly accept it?... Thank you. [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Then we pass to number nine. Yes... please.... [speaker005:] thirteen twelve. Visitor... delegate from the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the U S and Canada. It appears that there are many points at which er we can identify with one another or I have found that I can identify with the church and its social responsibility in this country because of our experience in my country. The cut back of social services by public agencies has meant for us, and I'm sure for you, er the church becomes more and more important in helping people survive and live more fully.... In erm our situation dedicated persons on the front lines have found themselves overwhelmed by increases in human needs and dwindling resources with which to meet those human needs and so we've tried to get innovative and do something about it. In our particular ministry in St Louis Missouri... we are trying to use the vast technology that's available to us in linking up with other organizations such as Catholic charities, Salvation Army and others, so that when persons are in need of help they can go to one organization and tell their story and they don't have to keep going from place to place telling their story over and over and... we're beginning to look toward the use of computers and what they are capable of doing in order to help resources stretch. And I think the, the kinds of er ministries expressed in item nine erm in which service delivery and the changing needs of individuals and the regular personal crises demand that kind of er linking and working together. There is also technology available which can link organizations throughout the world and so that when er the church in one place discovers a resource or a way to work with people around a particular need, they have the opportunity to share that and I would be interested in talking with persons who might have an interest in that. A man came to us for food recently, but he also needed spiritual counselling. He was on the point of taking his own life because he was depressed over his ill health... and at the, in the church one can find spiritual food and physical food together, and in our country that's about the only place where you can find those two together. Later he said to me... that we had been very helpful to him and he said it's bad enough to be depressed but when you're depressed and hungry, it's really bad. I think that the church has the responsibility to continue to find new and innovative ways of reaching out and doing a better job and that is er testimony to the fact that we can continue to reach out to persons who are suffering in many ways, and I would appreciate and look forward to learning better from you how to do that and would be happy to share.... [speaker001:] [applause] [Hugh:] Thank you very much. Pass to number er ten... eleven... twelve... thirteen... fourteen Please.... [speaker003:] I wish to inject an addendum... in deliverance fourteen... after the words each other, helping each other to continue to mature... add the words christian worship together is seen as a priority.... Moderator... in the course of my lifetime I believe one of the big changes within a family has been the fact that grace is no longer said at meal times. In so many of the homes that I visit that is patently clear. Perhaps it's a small thing but it's a touchstone of other things and a reflection of the importance given to God and christian principles in the home. I believe christian worship within the home and with the family together should be seen as a priority and therefore I'm not satisfied with the convenor's comments earlier on in answer to my question. I believe if this is indeed a statement about the christian ideal of marriage, then we should put worship at the very centre of it.... Shared worship, moreover, increases the trust and security which the words that follow my suggested addendum make clear. In this context of trust and security they engage in sexual relations. I believe that christian worship together is a vital and important place where such trust and security and the togetherness can be built up. The only christian element of this ideal, this christian ideal, is the mention of the word God in the promises made at marriage. How regrettable it is that so often in the marriages that we come across, those are the only promises that seem to be made, and the only mention of God within the family. My contention is that God and christian principles need to be set explicitly and overtly at the heart of this declaration of ideals. We heard the other day from Professor about the importance of a godly mother. I would add to that the importance, I am not a sexist, of a godly father. I think it's very important that we should make clear

[Melvin:] Could you also... for your passports just note the following information. Country of issue, whether it's a five or ten year passport... expiry date and your passport numbers. Again we can, we use that information when we go through various customs and border points. If... if we can give the lists in it just makes it easier. So if I could ask you just to complete that. [speaker002:] forms? [Melvin:] Yes Er there's some more over here, they're on their way round.... Right, has everybody... got one now? Are there any spare green forms anywhere? [speaker002:] Here. [Melvin:] Thank you. Can you, if you can let, simply let me have those in at the end of the session or if you can give them to Eleanor at the end of the session.... Right. Okay wh what er I'll give you time to fill that in at the end. Erm... what we're gonna do for the second part of the morning is to look, if you like at the tourism application for the determinants of demand. I'm gonna start by going back to that graph we looked at first thing this morning which is trying to explain what had been happening to the pattern of tourism, both visitors to this country and visitors moving away from this country in the period nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty two.... And if you wanna look at this graph... the period we're talking about is indicated with these dotted lines and you can see the green line here representing U K residents holidaying abroad. You've got a very sharp increase and then after nineteen eighty two it stabilizes a little bit. Er it moves up again in eighty five to eighty six and the general trend you can see is still upwards though it's certainly not repeating the growth in this period. At the same time, you can see the domestic holidays... the pattern's less clear, but certainly there doesn't appear to have been any growth. Now what I want to do is look at what was happening at that time and then try and explain using the determinants of demand... what the patterns actually were.... And so... if we look at what happened generally between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two... the general picture is that the number of total holidays taken actually fell by three percent.... And the number of U K holidays taken, domestic holidays in this country, that figure fell by seventeen percent and yet we can see here that holidays actually taken abroad by U K residents rose a staggering fifty seven percent over the four year period. So clearly in this period... the U K holidaymaker moved from being someone who primarily took their holidays in the U K... very definitely into someone who was now taking their holidays abroad.... Now furthermore, if we look at what was happening to the population itself, remember that under the economic basis of looking at determinants of demand, we saw that income was a crucial factor. And so if we look at what was happening to income at that time, we find that the disposable income, meaning the amount of money we have to spend on other things after we've bought essentials, that figure rose by only one and a half percent throughout this period. However, holiday expenditure rose by twenty four percent and spending on overseas trips rose by fifty percent.... So quite clearly we were experiencing a major change in tourism patterns in this country. Now the other thing we should remember is that between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two, certainly in the early nineteen eighties, eighty, eighty one, we were in the midst of a recession and so that should tell us that really people should have less money to spend on holidays. At the same time, we know that unemployment in this period was rising rapidly. And so if people had less money in their pockets and they were losing their jobs, what factors can explain why more and more people were actually going on holiday abroad? It doesn't, if you like, make sense and the key year, as I say, is nineteen seventy eight because that was the first time that spending on overseas holidays exceeded the spending on U K holidays. So from nineteen seventy seven, seventy eight... the U K holidaymaker... now became an overseas holidaymaker in the main.... And we can conclude that some form of revolution had taken place in overseas holiday participation... despite the high unemployment and the recession.... What we're gonna try and answer now is the reasons why this happened.... Because on the basis of the economic models and the way which we look at determinants of demand in economics, this shouldn't have happened, we should have had the reverse, we should have had fewer holidays being taken and certainly fewer overseas holidays. Can anybody s like to suggest what reasons could possibly explain why so many overseas holidays were being taken?... Or where the money was coming from to actually pay for these holidays.... [speaker002:] Is it to do with the package industry revolution? [Melvin:] Right. Er certainly within package holiday companies itself, competition was intense during this period... and price being the major factor in determinants of demand, all the tour operators try to keep price down to a minimum and over this period you would find the average price for a package holiday would barely have changed one year to the next. In fact if you look at the average price of a package holiday since nineteen seventy eight, the increase in prices has been absolutely marginal. Certainly well below the rate of inflation. An illustration if you like of how competitive the package holiday industry became. So in fact prices were good. Where would people have got the money from?... Any ideas?... Okay people could well have been using savings.... [speaker002:] Redundancy. [Melvin:] Right good. It's thought that a lot of the spending money for these would have come from redundancy payments when people lost their jobs. And that might seem a rather odd way to actually spend some of your redundancy money, but perhaps this leads us on to another area influencing the demand, and that's to do with, if you like, psychology. Er making yourself feel good even if it's only for a short time. If you can imagine someone losing their job, the depression that actually causes, perhaps both within them and with their family, the idea of being able to take them away for a holiday to forget about things might be a good thing at the end of the day. The other thing is that of course, going back to the competition with price, these holidays weren't that expensive. We're not talking about vast sums of money necessarily here. Are there any other factors which can explain... the taking of these holidays?... [speaker002:] The rising cost of holidays in the U K. [Melvin:] Er okay, it could be the rising cost of holidays in the U K. Possibly not so much the cost, what other factors in the list of, of determinants could come into play now? [speaker002:] Weather. [Melvin:] Right, climate is always a major consideration. Er... in nineteen seventy six for example, we had... the long hot summer as people call it. I think we had something like eight and a half months without rain and... there's the feeling, quite often, that when we get a good summer in this country, people assume that the next summer will be just as good. And so you can imagine all the people in nineteen seventy six thinking well... you know, there's definitely been a climatic change, we're gonna holiday in the U K in nineteen seventy seven. Nineteen seventy seven's summer was a total washout and that would tend to push people perhaps more towards guaranteed sunshine in the Mediterranean. So climate is a key factor. Anything else?... Okay well let's look at some of the main possible reasons for this in more detail. The reasons I'm gonna give you were supplied by a guy called Tony. Tony is actually a consultant. He used to be the marketing director of Butlins and obviously these trends were important to him when he was at Butlins because Butlins was actually losing... the market. So the reasons why. The first thing... we can say is definitely the strength of the pound. The pound sterling was very strong against the dollar and relatively strong against currencies like the deutschmark.... Now bearing in mind what we were saying about exchange rates before the break, if the pound was strong that obviously implied that people wanted to buy sterling, but what goods did they want to buy off us?... What major good were we producing or did we start producing around nineteen seventy seven?... Which brought a lot of money into the country.... One major good.... Output.... Okay it begins with O... oil. Okay? Very good. North Sea oil. North Sea oil came on board and suddenly we had a product which people wanted to buy. In order to buy the oil off us, they had to pay sterling and so hence the demand for sterling goes up and suddenly we were viewed as a very rich economy. Ironically the price of sterling went up so high that it made it very difficult for us to sell our other manufactured goods and many people are now of the belief that because of the North Sea oil price rises, this had an adverse affect on our economy, making it more difficult for us to sell manufacturing goods... because the pound was very strong against other currencies. So the strength of the pound caused through North Sea oil was a major factor. It meant it, it was very cheap for us to go to places like Florida for our holidays. Secondly, there was relatively low inflation abroad, certainly in the main holiday destinations in Europe. Prices were not going up too fast and again this made it economical for us to visit.... There was also a decline in real air transport cost.... And by this we mean in terms of things like the cost of fuel, although it did go up again in nineteen seventy nine, but also with respect to new services being offered. Er... Laker with his Skytrain, the people's express, we had a lot of new airline operations starting up which offered cheap seats so that the relative cost of flying was coming down. And the net result of all of these things together is that it narrowed the cost value differentials between U K and overseas holidays. Overseas holidays now started to look cheaper than actually going abroad. Sorry, than actually holidaying in Britain.... Right, the second factor which Tony outlined was what was happening in the population and again we've already talked about this. Basically there's a decline in the number of children during this period, people under the age of sixteen, by around about eleven percent.... At the same time, there was a growth in the age group between sixteen and twenty four... of about seven percent.... And finally, again we've already talked about the elderly... er age groups, there was a growth in the sixty plus age group of about five per cent.... [speaker002:] Sir is that children? [Melvin:] Yeah. Yeah sixteen, under sixteen, then sixteen to twenty four, and then sixty plus.... Now in this particular period if you were looking at these figures just like this, what would be your automatic reaction in terms of the type of holidays we ought to be providing?... What sort of holidays should we now start providing during this period?... Which age group?... Right, sixteen to twenty four. So can you think of any... er brochures or any companies which were around at that time to take advantage? Probably the most famous one Right, Club Eighteen to Thirty. Okay so Club Eighteen to Thirty was doing good business around this period because of this situation. Now what we have to do however is look at it in more... in more detail than just simply the age of people. We're also gonna look at where they live, remember what they're income is etcetera and the important thing is... because of these increases here... and because of the recession in general, it dictated to us that there were gonna be more one and two person households. Households without children in other words.... And this implies greater mobility both physically and financially.... If you picture a, for example, a typical couple perhaps living in London, erm the price of property... is such that you maybe start with an apartment. If you want to have children you've gotta offset that against, for example, having a car or a new stereo, things which affect your lifestyle. So the pattern would have been perhaps towards marrying later, or certainly having children later and then perhaps moving out of London. So this in a sense tends to reinforce the idea of these households with just one and two people living in them. As the recession's gone on through the eighties and enters the nineties, we can see that the number of single households, households with just one person, is increasing rapidly. It's a major market and the tourism industry has really been very slow to wake up to this factor. Because if you look in any package holiday brochure, you'll still see that, in order to get a room, you need two people. If you, if any of you, you probably haven't, seen any brochures specifically geared towards single people. Very, very few. And yet that's a major growing part of the market.... A third area will be social factors and here you've already mentioned the weather. Climate obviously is a major determinant of demand, attracting people to if you like the guaranteed sunshine. Ironically, now we're probably moving into a new era where sunshine is actually seen as something harmful giving things like skin cancer, er certainly in the Australia market it's the case at the moment. And so ironically, although climate will be a factor in er this century and into the next century, it could be well to escape the sun. The direct reverse if you like of this period here.... The second factor is of... is the whole question of holiday entitlements. The number of weeks paid holiday... that a worker will get is increasing rapidly so as today we have the norm of twenty days plus public bank holidays, giving more time if you like to engage in a package holiday abroad. Another social factor is the whole thing about foreign holidays being seen as somehow superior. Remember we keep talking about tourism as being fashionable, it's fashionable to say you've been to certain destinations. Saying you've been to those destinations in the U K doesn't actually hold the same appeal or esteem. So the foreign holidays, because you're guaranteed sunshine, cheap alcohol, everything else, somehow being seen as better than the traditional British holiday. At this time remember the traditional British holiday was seen as staying in a boarding house with a landlady. You had to be in at a certain time... you know, you had very standard cuisine, it was, it had become if you like, ridiculed in jokes and things of this nature.... And yeah another one connected to this whole lifestyle, aspirational argument... the image the brochures give us of a couple si sitting on a terrace with, you know, you can almost hear the music in the background, the sun setting over the sea. If you like, giving us the Hollywood image that we can live that lifestyle for two weeks. Very difficult to imagine British resorts somehow trying to capture that. I mean you simply can't, you can't guarantee the sunsets for one thing. A fourth factor, education.... Er around this period we have the widespread... use of things like colour television... which has now started to appear in everybody's homes... and the beginnings of various holiday programmes. So that again, once a week you have a visual image of what different resorts look like, but this time in colour. And again we talked last week about the use of colour in photographs in brochures and things, if you like, to reinforce the sunshine element when you're sat in the snow in the winter watching Wish You Were Here or one of the holiday programmes. Video is probably also an important factor. A lot of travel companies starting to introduce video. Very commonplace today... go in to Thomas Cook's there'll be a video running continually with one destination or another or an activity holiday etcetera. And a fourth factor, third factor rather, school trips. Now again I mentioned this last week, the idea of introducing schoolchildren at a very young age to different countries and different cultures... so that in fact when they come to go on holiday on their own or with a partner... it holds no fear for them... unlike, if you like, senior citizens might do. And it's plain that this in fact is one of the major reasons explaining why more and more people are actually travelling overseas now.... The final thing is to do with marketing... and here we've got, in particular, the convenience of the ITs, remember the inclusive tours. You go to a travel agent, you pay a cheque and that will cover your accommodation, your meals, your transport, your insurance, it can even cover your entertainment. Very very easy to purchase. If you contrast that with holidaying in Britain, even today relatively few people will be a buy a package holiday in Britain because somehow we think we can do it better ourselves. We don't need to buy a package, we can simply lift up the telephone, book our own accommodation, use our own car. And obviously that you can do, but it takes time, it's quicker just to walk into a travel agent and pick up a cheap bargain. Ease of purchase.... Again the fact that you buy a single package very often when you go overseas.... The tour operators recognizing that people had different demands at this period, were developing specialist markets. Club Eighteen Thirty, activity based holidays, holidays to exotic destinations.... And with, these destinations, you can u use strong promotion. If you go past any travel agent's window during the winter, look at what they've got on display. Invariably it will have palm trees and sunshine. It has maximum impact when we're trudging through the snow and the rain. And the final thing, a factor we've already mentioned, price competition.... Now these are the reasons that, why Tony claims the revolution would have taken place around this period. And these are all re really valid but what I want to do now is start looking more into how a visitor actually thinks. What influences them inside their heads to actually go for a certain destination. And how do we actually use this in marketing. Now we started the morning... by looking at the determinants of demand. And what I want to do now... is to look at two elements. I'm gonna split the determinants into two. On the one hand I'm gonna say you've got the enabling factors, these are things which enable you to actually participate in taking a holiday overseas. And then here we've got the motivating factors. If you like the psychological influences.... So we might in fact simplify this by saying these are the enabling factors... if you like, to leave home... these are the motivating factors... pulling us to a certain destination.... And, go through the enabling factors first, they're very very straightforward, it's the motivating factors which are more complex. So what are the things which enable you to leave home? Firstly... if you've got a supply of holiday products on offer. If you've got travel agents round every street corner then it's very easy simply to walk into them and buy a package on the spot. You don't need, for example, months of preparation and planning in terms of perhaps where you're gonna go.... This is particularly true in recent years, because more and more people nowadays book holidays at the last minute. Very often it's to try and take advantage of price deals, but also it's because we now know there perhaps isn't the urgency to buy a holiday in February because we know there'll be plenty around still in June or July. Increasingly as well many people are making their own holiday arrangements. Er some of you I suspect are already into things like bucketshop flights. How many... how many people are aware of bucketshop flights?... [speaker002:] Tried it? [Melvin:] Well not necessarily tried it but you're aware that they exist.... Yes, well it's a few people. These are very very cheap discounted tickets er usually using what we might call the dodgier carriers of the world, not necessarily those which have got a bad safety records or crash records, but where the cuisine isn't quite as good on board, or... you don't get an inflight movie. Erm... just to digress, you've got well known airlines er such as Tarob of Rumania where you can get cheap flights with them virtually anywhere except ironically to Rumania [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Melvin:] erm... you've got other airlines erm... such as erm... er Geruda of Indonesia er Imam of Bangladesh, there's a whole sequence of them. And if you wanna go somewhere in south east Asia you can pick up flights which are very very cheap. Less than half the price of, for example, a standard British Air Apex ticket. So the supply available is very important. Likewise when we go to a country, we need somewhere to stay and over the last decade there have been more and more hotels built in virtually every place in the world. Secondly, you need disposable income, obviously.... A third factor concerns, if you like, the demographic situation, if you've got children erm if you've got elderly relatives to look after, that will obviously determine whether you're enabled to travel and perhaps where to.... You've also got geographical factors... the journey time.... Again last week we talked about the feasibility of going to Australia for a week and the impact it would have on you after things like jetlag.... You've got things like socio-cultural factors in terms of paid holidays.... How many paid holidays do you get a year and when are you likely to be able to take them. For example, many people have four weeks' holiday a year, but not many people can take that four weeks all in one go, there are usually restrictions that you can only take maybe a maximum of two weeks. Hence the socio-cultural factors are important erm and another important one at the end of the day is your own personal mobility. Your own health and fitness. Now this can become an increasingly important factor because of all the activity holidays around today. For example if you go for a Peter Stuyvesant activity holiday, you have to have a medical first. Erm unless you've got a doctor's note saying that you've passed the medical, they won't allow you to actually go on the activity holiday. Now that's a drawback in many respects, but it's also if you er think about it, a very good selling point. It makes it sound really challenging and adventurous before you've even bought the package, the mere fact that you have to go through that beforehand. Motivating factors are more complex... and the sort of things we'll be talking about here... something we call income elasticity.... And in fact we'll come back to look at this and Bob will also be looking at er with you environmental analysis as well. Erm the whole question here is if you have more money in a sense, what do you spend it on? In general we find that, for a very small increase in, for example, wages, we tend to spend a lot more, proportionately, on holidays. It's almost as if we think subconsciously well we've got that little bit extra, let's go for it. Even though in effect you're using more of your income proportionately than you would have been doing before. The other thing about holidays and elasticity is the question of what happens when the price of a holiday goes up. Now we looked at the graphs and that should dictate in general that demand will go down. But it doesn't seem to work like that. In general even if the price of a holiday goes up extortionately, the number of people going overseas tends to stay about the same. W we haven't noticed, if you like, a very big change in it. If you at the statistics over the last three to four years, you'll find the number of U K people travelling abroad has always stayed round about the thirty million mark, despite what's happened to the prices.... A second factor... motivating people... again... it's the demographic situation, the fact that if you haven't got children, you're free to do what you want. You don't have any, if you like, responsibilities as such.... Geographical factors can be a motivating factor, er we've talked about the sun and the influence of the sun.... You can also have geographical factors again, as we said last week, to do with things like scenery and obviously geographical factors are very important if we consider skiing er with the classification of the ski slopes between difficult and suit beginners. Or the pistes as we call them. Socio-cultural factors... these relate to things like our beliefs and notions... and our aspirations. But probably the key one here is the belief that somehow if we go on holiday, we're gonna come back totally refreshed. Again we talked about this last week, fifty weeks of the year you toil... and you look forward to your holiday months in advance, you then take your holiday and somehow it recharges your batteries so that you're ready to do battle again for the next fifty weeks. It's claimed by many people that we live in a cycle where, if you like, we struggle to get through fifty weeks of the year to live for holidays... recharge the batteries, then you go into it again.... Incidentally on this one you've got the lifestyle aspirations. If you think of what you do on a holiday, it's a totally different lifestyle to when you're normally working and obviously people desire to have that sort of experience more and more, and you've got the rise of things like short breaks. So again the trend today is towards people having at least one overseas trip a year and possibly two or three short break weekends as well. Er increasingly, we're also looking at a new market which has a holiday in the summer overseas and in winter goes skiing. Again trying to get more of this lifestyle into their day to day existence.... Comparative prices are gonna be a motivating factor. Competition, the price of alternatives etcetera... and then you only have to look in any travel agent's window to see that that's an important factor today. Windows covered in prices, lots of talk about discounts, vouchers, all sorts of things to try and get you to part with your money.... Personal mobility. Here by the main we're talking about the motor car. The advent of the private car has made a greater percentage of the population mobile, we can reach many different areas today by private car.... And then we've got some factors which I wasn't sure where to put, government regulations... erm... again you'll come on to this later in the year... deregulation of the airlines allowing free competition between airlines and low prices.... Issuing of passports, currency exchange controls... these can be both enabling and motivating factors.... And finally, the big one, the impact of the mass media. Everything from newspapers to television... movies... the lot.... And so while these things here enable us to leave home, if you like, these things are buzzing round in our head and in marketing these are things we have to look at... in order to, we have to be able to make product and then try and assess how will the... tourist or potential tourist respond to this. What will they think about it. And so... just gonna do a diagram now, just look at buying influences.... What are the things which actually are going through someone's head when they buy a product.... You don't need to list all of these, just the headings are fine.... We've got both, if you like, cultural motivations in our head.... Cultural beliefs, values and lifestyles.... [speaker002:] say at the top [Melvin:] Er that's just buying behaviour. Patterns of buying behaviour.... So the first things going through a buyer's head, or that will influence them, will be the sort of lifestyle they're actually looking for. The value they're attaching to this holiday, is it an important element for them? Is it the one thing in the year for them. Are they just doing it quickly as a one off? What do they expect to get out of the holiday? Now so far we've talked about things like recharging the batteries. What other things is people likely to get out of a holiday though?... Imagine when you go on holiday, what other things are you hoping to get as a result of it?... [speaker002:] A sun tan. [Melvin:] Right, a sun tan. Well you're probably only doing that though in order to impress people when you go back. So you're looking for attention probably more than anything. So attention seeking's one thing. [speaker002:] Have a good time. [Melvin:] Sorry? [speaker002:] To have a good time. [Melvin:] Okay, you could... what, what would you be hoping to achieve during that good time?... Have a few laughs, what else though?... What other things do you hope or do you think might happen shall we say? [speaker002:] To meet some nice people to go on holiday with. [Melvin:] Right, meeting people. Things like romance are very important with holidays. I mean, you all know about the image the cruiseliners have with wealthy widows and things like that. The Club Eighteen Thirty idea is much along similar lines, and if you look at a Club Eighteen Thirty brochure, the sort of activities people do together, bringing people together. So this is all an important element. [speaker002:] Cuisine. [Melvin:] Right, cuisine could be an important motivating factor. Er basically stuffing yourself to excess for two weeks. Drinking yourself to excess for two weeks for peanuts. Again, that would be something. But in general the people who are doing some of those things, a lot of it's probably escapism... certain type, complete break from their work. What other things do you think you would hope to get as a result of your holiday? [speaker002:] Time to relax. [Melvin:] Right. Okay time to perhaps to relax, to reflect.... [speaker002:] see various water sports [Melvin:] Okay, so you can improve your prowess at windsurfing. And certainly there's the fitness, activity side, that can be an important motivating thing. What else will you do on holiday? All we've talked about so far is drinking and lying on a beach. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Melvin:] Sorry? [speaker002:] Sightseeing. [Melvin:] Right, sightseeing. So what do you hope to get out of sightseeing?... [speaker002:] Increase your knowledge. [Melvin:] Right, increase your knowledge.... [speaker002:] See different cultures. [Melvin:] Right, see different cultures.... Anything else?... [speaker002:] Take photographs. [Melvin:] Sorry? Okay. Look at nature, get back to nature. Certainly that's the appeal of Central Parcs. Anything else? [speaker002:] See how it feels, the way that they live there. [Melvin:] Okay well that would again tie perhaps more in with culture. I mean you can, you're starting to get, if you like, a big list now of motivating factors. Er for example all of us in this room, if we went to one destination, we'd probably all come away with a different combination of things that we'd actually got from it. It might be education, it might be knowledge, interest can be another one... er relaxation, romance, having a good time... there are a whole se sequence of different reasons. There are other reasons as well, things like peace and tranquillity... er time to reflect... er and yeah there are other motivations as well which you, if you like, are kind of negative. For example the desire to escape your humdrum existence... back here, er the desire to escape the family, er to have someone moaning at you continually, these are all important factors which add on. So in effect there are kind of like negative motivating factors which is basically all to do about escape... where you don't care where you go as long as you get away from here. And then there are the things you get when you actually go to a destination. So... again if we look at all of these things across the top... we've got other things influencing across here... when you go on holiday you, each of you in this room, you'll probably have some idea beforehand of what you want to get out of that holiday. For example if you go on an overland trip trekking in erm South America, you're clearly looking for something totally different than the person who goes on the sort of typical Club Eighteen to Thirty type holiday. Other things which will influence, it's claimed, are things like social class... er again used ex er extensively by marketing people in this country. Now you'll be doing this before Christmas, and what it is is there, there are lots of different categories we can use but the standard one is dividing the population into six distinct categories. By and large it's according to people's occupations and you start with A which will be professional people, surgeons... solicitors etcetera. You have B which are managers. C one which would be office workers. C two... skilled workers. D unskilled workers and E, that would be everybody else. Okay? And as students you're in E. So this will actually influence you, because you'll be able to look through the brochures and see which of those groups it's being targeted at. Erm to give you an example... let me show you this brochure here... this is Page and Moy... high prices and clearly that is aimed at A and B.... Looking at this one... you can see that the whole format's totally different, like the cartoon on the front... and the layout. And that... who would you say that was aimed at?... Well it's young people, what sort of occupations?... Would it appeal to you?... Do you think?... Er there... [speaker002:] Mm yeah I think it would [Melvin:] Yeah. So we're probably thinking perhaps partly students. Er because people in this age group haven't yet become managers and certainly not professional, we're probably thinking more in terms of the Es and students and perhaps C twos C ones. These are not cheap holidays so it probably rules out the D category. So the social class structure is important. It's also the question of mixing between these groups as well. It's claimed that people feel uncomfortable if they're plunged into a group of people who are perhaps from a different social class or background say. In particular in this country and it's also the same in France and Germany. We tend to be fairly what we might call gregarious, meaning we like to stay with people of our own type. People speaking our own language, people who do similar things to ourselves. The final one here again, simply economic. Again we're back to price and things of that nature. And then we have the individual psychological factors which go through our heads.... And the things that actually go through our heads we refer very often to as cognitions. Cognitions.... Our thought processes.... For example if you went to Nepal, one of your motivations for going there might be to meditate or relax and that would be a cognition. It's something you would know within your own head.... We have the various learning processes, how do we learn?... That's quite an interesting one, if you consider as students how do you learn... erm... in general you probably don't learn that much in lectures because for example we know from experiments that we all have a limited attention span. Basically you will listen for maybe... seven minutes then you switch off for two minutes... then you switch on again and then you try and think well what was I listening to... seven minu well you know, three minutes ago... what was probably said in the last two minutes. By the time you've sussed that out, you've missed another five minutes, your brain gets confused so you then switch off again for another three minutes and try and clear everything. And you're doing this the whole time. But how do we actually learn?... [speaker002:] Taking information through your senses. [Melvin:] Okay you take in... right reading, listening [speaker002:] From experience. [Melvin:] From experience... and there are also the occasions very often when you're, if you like, force fed. When you've got exams you have to learn. You have to be able to hold it up there and perhaps put it down on paper or apply it. We also learn from things like television. Most of you here, a great deal of your knowledge probably comes from watching television. Possibly more nowadays than, for example, from reading as would have been the case in the past. This is an interesting one, the interpersonal response.... How do you interact with people when you go abroad? Are you the type who wants to go up to, you're on holiday in Spain, go up to a Spaniard... go hola [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Melvin:] you know, and actually try and hold a conversation with them. Are you the type who thinks god there's someone from Spain over there, oh it's alright there's a load of people from my nationality in the bar... and stick with them. Are you looking for the interaction where you learn something about the culture from talking to the people or do you want minimal interaction where simply you visit a place, and you stay in your little bubble... or ghetto... with people of your own tour company, you do everything together and you never come into contact with local people. Erm... two if you like extremes and there's a lot of things in between. It doesn't incidentally mean that one is good and the other is bad. Er a lot of people give the impression that we should all be more interactive, that we should go abroad and speak languages to many of these people, but the people you come into contact with when you go on holiday in Spain, the only Spanish people are likely to be the waiter who served you... and he's serving you as part of his job. His job is also to be friendly to you, to smile at you, you know, when you want it, so it's not really an equal relationship. It's very difficult, if you like, to develop a true friendship and exchange of ideas. The waiter very often will tell you what you want to hear. Yes? If you think about that, it's a very difficult situation. Attitudes are important, what attitudes do you hold. In particular, what prejudices.... Do you have a prejudice against for example eating oily food?... Do you have a prejudice against the French? Which a lot of English people do. Erm prejudices come from all sorts of things, some of them are historical, some of them are generated out of things like football... and arguments in the evening about good teams. Prejudices, we're all born with them, they're if you like perceptions which are only changed very often through experience. We've then got general motivations themselves, which we listed.... It's cheap price, good deal, that sort of thing. And finally... perhaps your own personality as well. Are you an extrovert person... outgoing, willing to take a chance, willing to take a risk or are you more introverted perhaps?... [speaker002:] What is traits? [Melvin:] Traits means characteristics.... Just to show you... how this has developed, you don't need to copy this down, it's something that you'll do in the second year of your course, but we mentioned in particular here how you interact with people... and what goes through your head. And this has actually been categorized into two tables... and... by, they claim that you can define different types of tourists according to, firstly, the way in which they interact with the local people. So at one extreme you've got the explorer who simply goes off into the unknown. The, the last thing the explorer wants on holiday is to meet people from their own country. Th they wanna get far away from it. They don't really like being called a tourist in many places. Many of them will use the term traveller because somehow it's less derogatory, it sounds more impressive. And these people here will learn languages, they will eat the local food, they will do anything the locals do, they will dress like them, the lot... in order to try and get as full a experience as possible. At the other end, you have what we call the charter tourist. The person who goes there and basically they want to take their home with them. In the case of an Englishman they'll want to take their beer, steak and chips, everything over to simply a hot climate and they live in their bubble. So you have these two extremes. In between you have elite, offbeat, unusual, mass and so on but they all lie somewhere between these extremes in terms of totally interacting and totally ignoring in many cases. The second type is the cognitive normative. In other words, defining tourists according to what's actually going through their heads. And here for example you might have the recreational... mind, healthy mind and body... the existential, the person who as much as anything may be looking for an experience based on meditation, er religion, this sort of thing. Er you've got, also down here, experimental... the person who experiments if you like with different cultures, trying to think of a different way, who's interested in religions. Now you may think that the number of people in this category here is very minimal, but there's increasing numbers of people around the world travelling now who are motivated by things like this. You only have to look at the number of visitors going to places such as Nepal er to see the increase there, to see how important this connection be.... Now for our purposes, the kind of thing we're gonna do, is look at a much simpler breakdown of tourists. And this is gonna introduce you to a new word called psychographic and psychographic, you think you've got, you can break it in two... you've got the psychological aspects and the graphic or mapping, the mapping of the psychology.... And this has been translated by a gentleman by the name of Stanley Clog [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Melvin:] but we don't usually refer to it as Clog's theory or anything like that.... And Stanley Clog identifies four different types of tourist and these are the main ones which we're gonna use. Two of them you'll of heard before I'm sure. The first one you won't have done. Psychocentrics are the first one. If you're a psychocentric tourist, you're the type of person who's self inhibited. You're perhaps a little nervous of change... you haven't got really a desire for adventure or anything too challenging. You prefer well packaged routine holidays in popular tourism destinations and you're looking at the three Ss or four Ss we should say.... So you're looking at a package holiday resort in Spain... in the main.... Okay, psychocentrics. Again, like to be in the crowds. The alternative are what we call alocentrics, these are outgoing people with varied interests. They're keen to explore, to find new things and they're likely to want independence.... And in between these two... we also have something called midcentrics who do bits of both, but these are the two extremes. So all of you in this room are either a psychocentric or probably an alocentric.... The type of person who goes on this holiday is almost certainly gonna be a psychocentric. The type of person who goes on this holiday to destinations for example want somewhere unusual... perhaps to India, is more likely to be an alocentric person cos they're getting away from the crowds. Okay so psychocentrics and alocentrics.... So this is what Stanley Clog produced, now we're gonna add two more to this, two that you're all familiar with I'm sure, firstly, sunlust people. People who chase the sun... beach holidays and there's a lust for a tan.... So for example w I can't remember your name... who's the girl next to you? [speaker002:] Michelle. [Melvin:] Michelle is obviously a sunlust person in that respect and depending on whether she goes to a main package resort in Spain or perhaps a beach in India, she can either be a psychocentric sunlust person or an alocentric sunlust person.... And the alternative to this is wanderlust. The person who wants to explore, keep on the move... and typified by some form of touring holiday.... Okay so now whenever you look at a package holiday brochure, you should be able to identify the market just using two words... sunlust alocentric, wanderlust psychocentric and so on. So if you're looking at a touring holiday in Europe... it's wanderlust probably, and if it's an, a coach tour round Europe it's almost certain to be psychocentric. If you're looking for a tour around... Borneo and Indonesia, that's away from the crowds so we can say it's an alocentric wanderlust. So it's a very simple way, if you like, for us to define markets fairly accurately. Okay can everybody understand that?... Sunlust, wanderlust, psychocentrics and alocentrics. Right well you'll be doing a lot more of this in your marketing. Er I've got two handouts which I want you to pick up er now. One is something sp specifically written on the demand for the tourism product after nineteen ninety one. Try to highlight those factors or the determinants of demand which were gonna be important in buying the tourism products in nineteen ninety two. And the second is something on tourism decision making. This simply gives you, it's only a two page handout, it gives you some idea of the sort of motivations... from what people have written about them. What I also want you to do on this is if you can refer to Adrian Bull's book, the Economics of Travel and Tourism, and just go through the relevant chapter on demand.

[Joey:] Birmingham Polytechnic offer all their facilities absolutely free of charge to us so get yourself down in the entertainment bar in Aston. Er make full use of all their fields... as well as their indoor gyms, leisure centre, swimming pool etcetera. Birmingham University don't let us use their stuff free of charge. Er it's thirty six pound a year to be a member there but if you are a keen sportsman their facilities are well worth using because it's a... very very good sports centre indeed. Aston University haven't got an awful lot of good stuff in the way of indoor facilities. They've got a good seven a side outdoor astroturf pitch which we can hire fairly cheaply. But er I wouldn't recommend that too highly. Sporting teams, you all look a sporting bunch to me... specially that chubby chap there in the middle... er I've got contacts with not only all the local football, rugby, cricket clubs etcetera, but also the teams that sort of how do I put this... represent people in er... the city on, on a, a good sporting level, I E Mosely Rugby Club, Aston Villa Football Club, so whatever your standard is in any sport come and see me and I shall sort out exactly... what you want. Of course the college has its own teams as well. Er football, rugby... basketball are popular ones. Er any team that you do want to join, there is also a team available. If you actually want to set up the society yourself, find ten little friends, come along, ten people giving the number you need to form a society... one pound each for membership, I shall give you all the er relevant data and you can start up your side in whatever it be as long as it doesn't contravene union policy on sexism, racism etcetera. And I'm sure you wouldn't. Er that's briefly enough on sport, I'm gonna move on to entertainment facilities now. The bar, the guild bar downstairs... currently not open at the moment I grant you, but hopefully, with a bit of luck, tonight is the grand opening tonight. And what a wonderful place, what more can be said about the bar? Free with your guild card which you will carry with you everywhere I know, cheap beer, brilliant atmosphere, incredibly good DJs [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] erm we're always looking for people to come along and have a go so if you wanna put your name down you can have a Saturday night and spin those wheels. excellent atmosphere, friendly barmen [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] He's alright your friend there. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] He's just a bit grumpy, he's a bit grumpy at times, excellent barmen er I'm usually down there s sampling the, the Diet Coke or some such wondrous thing like that. Er and you will definitely get to know lots of people down there and it's a good focal point for the Guild. I must point out about isn't just the Guild... a lot of people think it is but it is a good focal point to find out what's going on and meet people. Er on a slightly bigger scale entertainment again as we're only a small college, we do tend to liaise with the bigger education establishment in the city, I E Birmingham University, Central England... University formerly Birmingham Polytechnic and Aston University. They have fairly regularly staged, what you might call bigger bands who play the university circuit as such... and they're always, you know, dying for people to come along so there'll,th there'll be lists published at what time, what events are on at these places... if you wanna go and do that and if you wanna go to the top notch bands, Birmingham's a good venue for that with the Leisure Centre, the M I A... the N E C, the K G B etcetera etcetera... all that stuff there so there's always plenty to do, don't, don't feel restricted just cos we're in er the middle of the city centre in this college and there doesn't seem a lot to do, there's a lot going on. A free legal service is offered by the Guild. It's a, a firm of city centre solicitors, they're very very good indeed er I recommend it thoroughly. It er doesn't have to be a problem related to college, any problem you've got... er come and see me, it's as well to take advantage of it cos those of you who have been involved in legal wranglings before will... it's quite an expensive business, so [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] I mean you'll have to come and see me about that because it's fairly confidential so but they are very very good.... Er what else can I go on about? Representation. Now there's a long word for you.... Erm... my job, I, I'm employed by the Union of Students which you have all paid your subscription to so therefore, in effect, you're all my bosses.... I'm here to represent you basically as, as your voice with any problem you have, as I mentioned at the beginning. a problem is a, a lecture, a lecturer, other students, anything of the college... er I'm the person who takes your voice. Now you're... you're welcome to register a complaint yourself but I, I'm a representative on the Board of Governors, the Academic Board Committee etcetera etcetera so I can get these points right up where they belong. I can also, if I erm come across the same problem a few times I could hopefully work on that and then probably eradicate altogether. So do come and see me if it's a problem you've got that you think needs sorting out. Er again on the national level, if you think there's a, a campaign you wanna be involved in or wanna get started I'll put that on to the area N U S who will, if it's a credible case, will put it forward to the National Executive. But I'm really the person to come and see and I liaise with all these bodies as such. The annual general meeting our A G M is next week where, where we, we elect all the officers, the Guild officers, who will serve with me, and help me on the forthcoming year. There are eight positions up for grabs which are vice president, sports officer, entertainments officer... publicity officer, welfare officer, women's officer and minorities and overseas officer. If you're interested in standing for any of those or wanna put someone forward to stand for one of those, come to the elections in room six two three, six two four... Friday the twenty sixth at two fifteen... twenty third, I'm sorry, at two fifteen and er not only will you get all the, the general info about what I've done so far this year, what I intend to do, what next year's budget's going to be etcetera, that's when those elections are actually held. So... do come along to that. I'll leave it at the moment, I know you've now got a very busy day ahead of you... lectures to attend and such things like that... but er has anybody got a question or two they'd like to ask me concerning anything?... Don't all rush at once. This man here. What's your question sir? [speaker002:] Do the Guild offer a typing services? [Joey:] Not free of charge. There are, though, numerous students on certain of the third year and degree courses who are trying to earn a little extra income shall I put it and far from the majority of traditional methods they are to do it legally and set up little typewriting agencies etcetera and if you keep your eye on the notice boards you'll see various. For instance, you know, contact Carol H N D three F... er for typing servi they're not free,th they're dirt cheap, about twenty P a page... for A four. That's quite a bargain. Why, don't you like typing? [speaker002:] No.... [Joey:] rugby. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. [Joey:] Where can you play rugby? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] I shall, shall get in touch with Mosely Rugby Club for you. [speaker002:] Thank you. [Joey:] It's taken me long enough god knows but [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] I'll get in touch with them for... oh dear... I'll get in touch with them for you. round the corner no doubt I'm sure. [speaker002:] Indeed. [Joey:] Any other questions ladies and gentlemen? Okey-dokey.. A boring society. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Joey:] we haven't got one of those. No I'm only joking. Erm thank you very indeed for your time boys, girls, ladies and gentleman. Er I shall let you get on to your lectures or what other pursuits you have... and no doubt see you around. Any problem you've got do come and see me. Thank you very much indeed. [speaker002:] [clapping]

[Pat:] Right then! Leading on from last week... we were looking at... menu planning... and I actually asked you to bring in some menus.... Who actually managed to get a menu? [speaker002:] Yep! Yeah. [Pat:] Right, let's have a look! Well... that's a shame innit? What? Somewhere. It's only you! You might want to use those a little later. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Right, hold on to them cos you'll want them a little later right?... Right!... Can anyone tell me what the... four most common ones are? Yep! Yep! Yep! [speaker002:] Er, plat du jour. [Pat:] Right! Okay then. What do each of those mean? Suzanne? [speaker002:] Erm... the... table d'hote [Pat:] Shh! Shh! Shh! Shh! [speaker002:] is er... a choice out of the main course is a choice out of two... and everything else... is set. Or is it a choice of two for each course? [Pat:] Your telling me? [speaker002:] It's a choice out of two for each one. [Pat:] Right. [speaker002:] Erm, the... er... cote du jour is a set menu. [Pat:] Yes it is, can you expand on that? [speaker002:] Er... er No. Set price menu. [Pat:] Yes, the price would probably be set. So, I gave you two examples... and I said that it was often [speaker002:] Chef du jour. [Pat:] Yes! Good! Well done! And [speaker002:] Set budget. [Pat:] It was set which to er... and it looked different. It usually the chef's speciality. Okay. Erm... Gareth! The other two are? She's covered plat du jour... and table d'hote. [speaker002:] A la carte 's er... wide choice of... choice of food. Has to wait for food to be cooked and prepare to wait for it. [Pat:] Okay. Did anyone get er er an example of an a la carte? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Right! Okay. Hold on to those. I want you share those with the group shortly. And the other one is... please? Okay. And what exactly's that? What am I gonna get for my money for that? [speaker002:] Erm Continental. [Pat:] It is continental. What do I actually get? What is the way? [speaker002:] Oh accommodation. [Pat:] Accommodation, right! Can you just check that we took down the following. I think that we actually just had time to talk through these and you didn't actually make notes. [speaker002:] We did! Yeah we did! [Pat:] You've actually taken notes? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] And you did that? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Right! Wonderful! I was just a little curious and she seemed to be er [speaker002:] Oblivious to! [Pat:] . And you actually took that down. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah. [Pat:] Right! Wonderful! Okay then! Continuing... with the menu and... when planning a menu the points to be taken into consideration are... David! David. Okay? What things do you think you need to consider then... when you're putting together a menu? [speaker002:] They like a lot of food that's popular. [Pat:] Popular food. [speaker002:] Mm. [Pat:] Good! [speaker002:] Choice. [Pat:] Appearance and choice. [speaker002:] Nutrition Baked potato. [Pat:] Alright! Just one at a time! [speaker002:] Nutrition. [Pat:] No, time. [speaker002:] Go good balance. [Pat:] Who said balance? [speaker002:] Me. [Pat:] Okay. Balance in what way? [speaker002:] Well... I mean, well that's it, you know... selection of everything like the starch foods [Pat:] Is that balance or variety [speaker002:] plenty of Variety. Don't know. [Pat:] Okay. Oh [speaker002:] But you need a balance as well, like protein and [Pat:] If I put there... balance. Yes, you're quite right!... What else do you need to consider? Something that's very important... that you need consider. [speaker002:] Type of customer. [Pat:] Well done! You actually need to consider... this person... because, if you haven't got that person... i.e. customer... there's little point in having a menu... unless you're going to sit and read it yourself! Okay? So you need to consider that very carefully. So... first things first then... the people for whom the meal is intended. And it can determine certain things... Right! Type of food to be served... and type... and the number of covers. Why do we need to consider the type of food to be served? [speaker002:] So people they always keep, the customers that always arrive... if you're in a restaurant. You never know [Pat:] Yes. [speaker002:] what type of. [Pat:] Can I have a look at those menus that some of you brought in did i, cos we've got some with a la carte did anybody get sort of erm... a pub grub menu or... No, you all went for the... top of the range. Who's got the menu [speaker002:] I've got a Beefeater one. [Pat:] Right! Where's the have one?... Who had that copy er, a la carte? That's fine I'll give it you back I won't er... I won't take it away from you! Martin!... Who had the a la carte? [speaker002:] That was from. [Pat:] And that was a la carte? Right! You hold on to that and you and you can, sort of talk it through. With that, hold on to that. Right! Can you give us the prices of, have they got prices? A la carte? That's right! Are you listening? A la carte then? Just give me a. [speaker002:] In the erm... the starters, melon in four ninety five... avocado pear is five forty five... frog's legs, ten ninety five... and, that's the most expensive starter. [Pat:] Right. [speaker002:] Erm, yep! And then it's... soups starting at three forty five, five forty five... and then it's on to main course. Fish, twelve... salmon is twelve ninety five... Dover sole is twenty two ninety five. [Pat:] Okay, you can stop there, that's lovely thank you! Right! At Pizzaland we can have starter for... one pound thirty if we want! And, we can have... a main for... seven pound fifty- ish. Can you see the... the range of price, but also... obviously pizzas... and command a lower... price... than things on an a la carte menu. Oh right, this is a fixed one. Good! We'll use that in a moment. Now... so the type of food that you offer... will reflect the type of establishment. You wouldn't really expect to get... a la carte style food... in a pizza... establishment. Okay? What about the time, where do I put the time? Bearing in mind this is in relation to customers. [speaker002:] Time of day it is. [Pat:] Yes, the time of day... will depend of menu that you offer but... what else will it consider? [speaker002:] Time of year. [Pat:] Time of year. [speaker002:] Food that is sort of [Pat:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Things that are in season. [Pat:] Yes it will. But think of your customer. [speaker002:] The time people go out to eat. The time people go out to eat. [Pat:] The time people will go out to eat. If you were going for a MacDonalds how long do you think it would take? [speaker002:] Half an hour. Depends how much you eat, but assuming [Pat:] Alright, depends how much you eat. A Big Mac, some fries and a coke. [speaker002:] About half an hour. Half an hour. Half an hour at the most Depends if your [Pat:] Right! Half an hour at the most. If I went and had... a meal in the evening... a la carte, how would you... envisage it would take to go through that? [speaker002:] An hour and a half. About [Pat:] I it it virtually, you're virtually going to use the evening. Number of covers. [speaker002:] Depends how many people you're erm... chef's actually cooked for at the time. [Pat:] Yes. Why would that reflect what you offer? [speaker002:] Cos The time. How long it will actually be. How long the customer's actually sitting there for his meal. [Pat:] That's right! But also [speaker002:] How many. How many it's for. [Pat:] How many actual people in at any given time. Tha that will reflect what you can actually offer.... Right! All important... cost. The amount of money that people are prepared to pay for the meal... plus the overheads and the establishment.... And I think we actually got that, somebody said price. [speaker002:] Mm. [Pat:] David, a question to you! You said popular food... did you not? [speaker002:] Mhm. [Pat:] How, how would you find out what is... what food is popular? [speaker002:] Oh you gotta do it now? [Pat:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Depending on the amount of people. [Pat:] No. So you're just going to compile a menu and you're gonna hope that... Joe public... likes what you've put on? [speaker002:] No, you can put. [Pat:] Right. So you sort of do a survey? You do some research into it. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] If you put... if you compiled your menu and you then found out that certain dishes weren't being sold... what would you do then? [speaker002:] Take them off. [Pat:] Right. Good! Did I actually tell you last week about the feed back? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Yes? [speaker002:] No. [Pat:] It was the other group I mentioned. What you've got, you've got your customer... we've got your menu... feedback... and you got your products. Right, so... your customer... has the menus... you get some feedback, and the feedback you might need to modify your product... which is really what David's just said. The fact that you would need to change... your menu... if it wasn't... being used. That's quite important that you're aware of that.... Season. And I think se... several people did say that.... Use foods in season because they're cheaper.... Hot weather... dishes not always suitable to serve in cold weather. Although, this summer I don't think it would of had much of an effect. Yes? [speaker002:] Can I leave? [Pat:] Yes certainly!... That okay? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Right!... I've also said that you need to consider the staff. Why? [speaker002:] What type of restaurant it is. [Pat:] When you're putting yo together your menu why do you need to consider the staff? [speaker002:] They can. [Pat:] Yes! Exactly that! Whether or the, they've got the ability to cook what you've put on the menu. It's absolutely crucial! What else? [speaker002:] Serving. [Pat:] Yes, whether they can actually, whether they've got the skills... to silver serve, if your menu requires that it's silver served... then, then, yes clearly you would need to consider that. What else would I need to consider David? [speaker002:] Well I think when you have the customers then you know what type of things... once you've down you get type of people. If it's a high class restaurant then you prefer to... people who know what they're doing. [Pat:] That's right. What else do I need to consider... along with the staff? For the benefit of the staff also. We've looked at whether or not the staff have the skills... to cook... and serve, what else do I need the staff to be able to do? Who's worked in ki, sorry! [speaker002:] Explain all the dishes so that the customer has [Pat:] That's right! Yes, they need to have product knowledge. Who's been in... kitchen? Who's done... production? [speaker002:] Yeah ah! [Pat:] Right! When you actually went into the kitchen... what type of things were in there? The sink. What else is in there? [speaker002:] Equipment. [Pat:] Equipment! Did you know how all of it works? Did you use all of [speaker002:] Not all of it. [Pat:] it? [speaker002:] No. No. Yeah. [Pat:] Okay. That's something else that you need to be aware of. It would be no good... putting together a menu that required... certain equipment to be used... and staff didn't have the ability to use it.... And that is a summary of that.... Another point there... size and equipment of kitchen and dining room. It would be no good... putting together menu... and arranging to do two thousand covers if you've got... spacing for twenty persons, would it?... By the same token, if your equipment... is... small pieces of equipment... then you would not have the facility... to do a large volume of meals. If you think of it in relationship to the size of your cooker at home... and the size of the convection... ovens in... the eighth floor kitchen... or in... they're much larger... and therefore you are more able to cook volume.... It's alright. When I'm actually choosing the dishes that I'm going to put on the menu what things do we need to consider? [speaker002:] Er... special diets, like vegetarian or [Pat:] Er... yes, we would consider that.... What else wha might we consider? [speaker002:] You can take erm... of how much it's gonna cost. buy in bulk. [Pat:] Yes. What things do I? And that's one we'd look for in se, in season. But there's something else. We'll eat with our mouths but we also eat with what else [speaker002:] Eyes. Our eyes. [Pat:] Our eyes, yes. So what... do we have to think of when we actually compile a menu? Pardon? [speaker002:] Colour. [Pat:] Yes we do. The colours. The colour.... You need this information to do your exercise that you're going to do for me... shortly.... So, do not repeat the main ingredients. Avoid food the same colour. It actually gives you an example there. And think about the textures of food.... Over here. Is that better? Can you see now? [speaker002:] Yes. [Pat:] And... something that... you all mentioned... nutrition. [speaker002:] No. It's alright. [Pat:] If you were planning a menu... which would you consider first do you think? Proteins [speaker002:] Protein. [Pat:] vitamins, carbohydrates? When you're compiling a dish then?... What would you do? Select chips and plan it round the chips? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] No. [Pat:] No. [speaker002:] You'd plan it around the main course... the main... the main meat. [Pat:] Meat? Why meat? Suzanne? [speaker002:] Because... meat's the main.... . [Pat:] Gareth? Which would you plan first? If you're planning a dish, which would you... proteins, the vitamins, the carbohydrates. [speaker002:] Protein. [Pat:] Protein? [speaker002:] I say vitamins first. [Pat:] Vitamins, carbohydrates. [speaker002:] No! All that meat's got a [Pat:] Pardon? [speaker002:] All that meat's got a lot of [Pat:] Protein. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yeah protein. [Pat:] Protein? Protein. Does anyone know why protein? Yes? Oops! Steady! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Pat:] Why protein? [speaker002:] Erm... it's the most beneficiary to the body. [Pat:] Yes! [speaker002:] And also, you wouldn't want a piece of bro, broccoli! [LAUGHTER] No that's iron! No,. No, to me piece of broccoli. [Pat:] People do! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, but then it's [Pat:] Yeah. I... if you've ever dieted... then you'll be aware that... you actually... reduce the carbohydrates, but you need to retain protein and vitamins. Because those are essentials [speaker002:] Right. [Pat:] for the... the good order of the body. Basically. And... therefore... when you're looking at the nutritional value... you need to be... very aware... of that. [speaker002:] Yes. [Pat:] So you need to be aware of too many carbohydrates. Plan your protein first, vitamins and minerals second, and then your carbohydrates. Right, when you've completed that... you have a menu compilation exercise in front of you. [reading] From the items in the list below prepare to luncheon menus. One menu should be a four course table d'hote with two choices for each course... plus vegetables. And the other should be a set six course menu for a business lunch []. You can't... actually repeat any of them... when, in your menu compilation. There is adequate there in ar order to be able to do the exercise. Now, based on the information that you've just taken down... you need to give thought to the way in which you compile those. Off you go!... You can do it within twos... or threes. That's not fives and sixes, that's twos or threes! So David and Gareth and David and, I don't know your name. [speaker002:] Terry. Terry. [Pat:] Terry. Right! David, Terry and You'll be all up, Kieran, Kieran you've got somebody behind you. Two. Two. Daisy you can join up there. Three. Yes. Group threes isn't it? Group of three. This group's three. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] So you got to remem, you got to think of colour... texture... you can write all over the sheets if you want to. As long as you use the ones on the sheet... and you come up with... the two selection menus. Yes, put everything on it. [speaker002:] Make out a from both? [Pat:] Well you've got to make that, I'm going to tell you, you need to think about it. There isn't a list... so that you will need to sort of think it through. [speaker002:] Are we not allowed to use the same things twice? [Pat:] That's right. [speaker002:] Oh! [Pat:] And so if you use the... whatever... what is it you wanted to use in yours? Right... so have a look,. It's actually quite helpful isn't it, to have [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] two or three, you can have a look at what they... the way in which they're put together which why I. Right, well you, how you going to use it? Well I'm not going to actually tell you because I'll... ruin the solution to this. So, if I start to tell you... you need to think it through. Okay? So, it's,i it's not going to be as I. The things that you would get out. [speaker002:] Daisy! [Pat:] That's better. It'd be certain things you would have as starters and then. [speaker002:] How many, how many? [Pat:] Right! Do you think I about the? [speaker002:] Yes. [Pat:] Well, have you got some? [speaker002:] Oh you can't use, you can't use your [Pat:] No you can't use anything twice. No. Can't use anything twice. I,yo i, I mean if you use in one.... Well, I shall be interested to see what you can get. You've found a certain Paul? [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean. Can we erm... does it have to be all on here or can we use? [Pat:] Sorry? [speaker002:] Can you copy that and just what's on there? Can you put to it? [Pat:] No you can't! Right! No, we're not gonna take forever. [speaker002:] Can you put, add things? [Pat:] No! Copy it all down. [speaker002:] I haven't any. [Pat:] There is a solution! [speaker002:] We can't use... the same things twice? [Pat:] No, you can't use the same thing twice. You can't use the same thing twice and coffee doesn't count as a course! Just put it... you you'll need to get that... so what's the problem? Well then it'll be a course on it's own. Impossible! You've gotta get haven't you? You've got to think about it! [speaker002:] Cheese and biscuits? [Pat:] Cheese and biscuits can be a course. [speaker002:] Could we have, er? [Pat:] Can you? You tell me! [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] And don't forget you're thinking of colour... texture So you've got set menu and you've got table d'hote menu. Right! Well that's got a starter and it's How you doing? [speaker002:] Just the starter now cos she's. [Pat:] Let's see. What's it called? [speaker002:] Erm.... [Pat:] Pardon? Please worry about listing them. [speaker002:] Right. [Pat:] than one, two, three, four, five, six. Take a look at those. Well your table d'hote. That's not the choice is it? It, it actually says to you... two choices for each course. Read the instructions! Yes Colin! You had a six on table d'hote, you've got give me three choices. [speaker002:] As you long as? [Pat:] Yes you can. [speaker002:] Do you have to use all the vegetables? [Pat:] I think you'll probably be able to. Yes. Bearing in mind you're looking for colour and. It's possible to use... all the items. Keep in mind... one quarter. You got it? I'm glad there's! Right! Did you all manage to complete it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Pat:] Right! I want you to bring it in it's completed state to next week's lesson please? So, whoever you're working with... Shh! Shh! Shh! Whoever you're working with... you need, as a pair or a three-some to bring the solution with you next week please? Also, Shh! Shh! Shh! Shh! Also you will need to bring menus with you next week... for comparison. Right! If there's anyone in your group that suddenly reappears... they need to see Sally for their assignments.

[Tom Grundy:] I'll be available. Gentlemen, I'll take apologies for absence. I have Alan [John:] Yeah. [Tom Grundy:] ... and Ken. Are there any others? [George:] John. [Tom Grundy:] John.... Can I just say about Alan, apparently Alan has been in hospital. [John:] Oh! [Tom Grundy:] Had a slight operation and er... I didn't know about it until today so... erm... er... Paul 's going to... offer him our good wishes... and we're going to be, I'm told he's home again and it's, it's only quite a minor operation and he's quite well... and that er hopefully will be back again next week. Er, we have in fact... two non Rotarian visitors... as far as I'm aware there are no Rotarian visitors, am I correct in that? Can I then introduce to you... I'll introduce the speaker in a few moments, quite formally, but... Michael who's the guest of Roy. [speaker004:] [applause] [Tom Grundy:] And John, who's the guest of Bernie. [speaker004:] [applause] [Tom Grundy:] Are there any visits away? Silence is golden! There are no... erm, birthdays this week so... it's now [speaker004:] There is. [Tom Grundy:] my pleasure to... Ah! Are there any announcements by committee chairman? Any urgent announcements? John? [John:] Thank you president. Just to remind members of the club service committee that there is a meeting tonight... at the Green Man Hotel at six fifteen. [speaker004:] The same about community service... Wednesday, er seven fifteen at my place. [Tom Grundy:] Thank you Michael. Any other... announcements gents? Right! Well it's now my pleasure to introduce [speaker004:] No. [Tom Grundy:] our speaker... Donald... who's from the Engineering Council... and is here to speak on engineering. He was apprenticed as a toolmaker at Vickers Armstrong and has been thirty five years as the college lecturer at Colchester Institute. Including a, an exchange the United States of America... and prior to his retirement was Dean of Studies. Donald. [speaker004:] [applause] [Donald:] Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen! It's nice to be able to say that isn't it really? Anyway, what I really want to talk about is engineering for our future in a way because I mean most of you er, listen to the... doom and gloom and all the ni, all the er kind of statistics we've seen that come out of the... Engineering Prize Federation, the C B I, I wish somebody, for a change, would put a little bit of gloss on it instead of actually... bringing up the statistics which show how badly we're doing! But anyway, talking about engineering as a whole, quite obviously it's interesting to go back a bit because I'm always interested in the way the institutions actually started because er... there's a lovely story about er, the Stephenson brothers and tho,ju, having just come down from Scarborough on a mini-holiday we stopped at York and I went over a great big museum there, and quite obviously seeing the marvellous locomotives you realise that George Stevenson had er, a lot to do with that. The interesting thing of course was his ro, his brother Robert was a civil engineer... and the story goes, of course, they disagreed so much that in the end George said okay Robert you can have the civil engineers, I'll start with mechanical engineers! So, during the er, eighteen hundreds of course, you've got these two major institutions started up... and then of course we got the er Faraday when electrical started up, and they got the Faraday. So you really got the big three institutions, but unfortunately, like everything else, they grew and grew and grew and grew, and there's forty five engineering institutions! I bought along this brochure, you can have a copy if you like but I mean at the back there are forty five institutions... all virtually paddling their own canoe. So, quite obviously, everybody got a bit concerned because erm... anybody involved in engineering at all and you go to careers conventions, has everybody got a stand up? It's always a case of who gets there first gets the best position and things like that! But er... the government, a long while ago, actually decided they ought to do something about knocking the institutions' heads together... and they... drew up a plan called the Council of Engineering Institutes, where the idea was we get a little of coordination across the entire patch. Otherwise everybody, as I say, were pushing away and... discipline itself. Well the Council of Engineering Institutes didn't work very well! And, then that famous man who died just recently, Finniston was asked to er, present a report to the government about ten years ago, in which he was going to knock the heads together again and try to get some kind of er... organisation which would actually get the institutions to cooperate and coordinate their activities... and that was the beginning of the Engineering Council. Unfortunately, the Engineering Council ran into trouble with the fact that they did want to put some penal clauses in whereby engineers were responsible for a lot of their actions. You probably realise there are loads of problems, from a legal point of view, you've only gotta think of the... Piper Alpha, and most of the major disasters which do occur. It's very difficult indeed to pin people down, quite rightly so, I mean, you don't immediately want to see a scapegoat or something like that. But, if we had bought in some sort of penal clause, then I mean firms might be inclined to... look very critically at the qualifications their engineers have got. We know some of the major organisations in the country actually do look for chartered engineers with the disciplines of civil, mechanical, electrical... er, gas engineers, chemical engineers, energy engineers, as the case may be. So, the idea was that Finniston bought out this report which would then form another strata over the institutions... and form the Engineering Council, of which I happen to be a member. But unfortunately, again, we're goi, going back history-wise, the civils and the mechanicals and electricals, and you've only gotta go to London and see what palatial places they got just virtually adjacent to the Houses of Parliament you'll find mechanical engineers, and also the civil engineers in Bird Cage Walk. And you've only gotta go... if you go in the Savoy Hotel and just turn slightly left and you'll find electrical headquarters there as well, and quite obviously they are very powerful organisations! Electrical's a hundred and thirty thousand strong, mechanical somewhere about eighty thousand strong, civil's about sixty thousand strong. So when you realise it's somewhere about three hundred and fifty thousand chartered engineers in th... U K as a whole you'll see most of them belong to the three major organisations. Great progress was made! We did have committees and we began to coordinate activities and er careers conventions suddenly sprouted engineering council's banners... and the people all got together again under these banners and we went to these careers conventions and tried to obviously put across the image of engineering itself. But, as I say, this is about ten years ago but we're now run into another problem whereby... the erm... institutions are beginning go back again and want to project their own images, right the way through. So, as I say, that's what I call the erm... negative side of the Engineering Council whereby, we've still got problems with trying to er... coordinate the institutions. I suppose in a way it's a bit like the tail wagging the dog to a certain extent, whereby the er... larger institutions rather want to get their two pence worth, er rather than let the Engineering Council take over. But when we look at the positive side, and that's where we've got a plan... a cunning plan if you watch Black Adder at all! A cunning plan, to do something about organising the careers' conventions. And this is where we've decided that what we really need is young engineers, in other words er, people who have just entered the profession itself to talk to the school children. In other words, I mean I'm retired and I mean the point is that my erm experience goes back into the er... into the dark ages I can almost say because in these days, you probably realise, I mean if anybody buys a video you don't ask... you don't look for the book of instructions you ask about a five year old kiddy how to programme it! Cos I don't think there's many people in this room could probably programme a video itself. So technology has advanced considerably, and what we've done is to capitalise on the younger engineers and we've introduced another phase called neighbourhood engineers... and this is where we rely on the er goodwill of the firms to actually sa let their seconder engineers sometimes, but certainly let them out into the er... into the schools careers convention work places to talk to the actual youngster itself. It works like this, you get the schools involved and realise, I don't know how many have read the national curriculum, bit like the Maestricht treaty I suppose to a certain extent! But the national curriculum quite honestly, is quite wide and also expands over primary, secondary, and also higher education as well. And what we've tried to do is to look at the national curriculum and try to identify young engineers who could go in and help with design and technology and quite obviously, practice what they preach. So we er, schools can approach us as the Engineering Council... and say, we'd like some help, and quite obviously, they all want some help when they look at the actual syllabus of a design and technology itself! And er, we get a panel of young engineers and a panel of school teachers and they actually erm... go to a school, they sit down, look at the national curriculum and decide which parts they can actually participate in... and it's been so successful at the moment, realise the trouble is we're somewhere about five thousand, six hundred secondary schools in the U K you realise it's a mammoth task! You want somewhere in the region of about four engineers to each school so work it out yourself, it's quite a job to actually get the ratio right. But, in this area of East Anglia, which of course, includes this part of Essex itself we have got quite a tidy ratio at the moment of these panels of school teachers and panels of young engineers to actually look at a national curriculum and work out some kind of erm... time cycle... when a young engineer could come in and actually cross the t's and dot the i's on parts which obviously the teachers don't know about. Let me give you one or two specific examples, I'm always interested, having been in a college for thirty five years in adult education, I'm interested in the primary schools and I must admit I get more job satisfaction the moment we go in a primary schools than ever I had when I was in the college itself! And I was in a ca, er school... over the summer holidays and er, we were looking at the design and technology and the point was that they gotta design and make some components, and realise I'm talking about, you know, six, seven, eight year old, mixed... girls and boys theirselves, and it was ra rather heart-warming to see where the way these youngsters react. I must admit, some of you probably were brought up on Meccano, and certainly not in the mo mo more sophisticated technology we've got at the moment, but the point is, a lot of these haven't really seen this part of what I call the basic technology itself... and er, it was interesting because we were trying to build up some kind of game for their summer fair and the game was quite obviously er, you know er propel a ping-pong into a er... series of slots with er, bit like bingo to a certain extent, where you can actually er... give prizes for the various holes you could actually penetrate and things like that. And it was interesting because er, we were talking about propulsion, talking about all types of er mechanics and sciences, and the way they'd write up a report at the end which is part of the English part of it, and one of the youngsters said to me, he said, can I go home Mr? I said, I don't think you can. He said, well I only live next door you know in a, in a village school quite obviously they all lived nearby... and he was only gone about two or three minutes and he came back and once again, the young lady will know, but erm men might not know, I know, skirt hangers, you know skirt hangers, they're on springs aren't they? A, the glazed expression round here is fantastic! Anyway, skirt hangers are on springs and it was rather interesting because he came back with a skirt hanger and also a er... kitchen roll tube itself, he said I've got an idea Mr! And he drew it out actually, remember he's only six, seven years old... and what he'd done was to put this spring loaded hanger into the back of the tube and he'd made a kind of trigger with a little, little plastic peg, and he said here's your gun! And as pulled the peg the spring went out and the ball went like that! Now, that's really great to me because I mean, you're really stimulating the youngsters at that age, and quite obviously I could tell you loads of stories the way this neighbourhood engineers er er, scheme works at the moment... but as I say we are embarrassed at the moment because, quite obviously, loads of school want us to participate but we got a very shortage of engineers. You see, going back in my own experience and er... did mention that I was apprentice with Vickers Armstrong realise Vickers Armstrong re pe, recruited three thousand apprentices! Three thousand apprentices those days! And they knew full well that they didn't really need the three thousand apprentices but those large firms trained no no note my word, for the country's needs, not the company's needs! In other words, I C I, Ingaselectric, A E I, all the big firms, all the er coal mines, all the British Rail, well British Rail in those days, and these large firms trained large numbers of apprentices and then after the five years they tipped you out, I'm sorry I'm going back a long while, into what they call an improver status and then you could either come back to the firm or you could go, stay where you were. As it happened, as I say, I was apprentice at Vickers Armstrong and I moved on, quite obviously, to another firm who were looking for people like this. And quite obviously, adjacent to Harlow was one of the largest training schools ever, anybody trained at a Ford training school was made! In other words, I mean that was a basic kind of training you could get as a mechanical engineer. Now, I mean, I'm talking about Vickers Armstrongs' three thousand, let's get back to er my particular home base, Colchester. Colchester was an engineering base, there's no doubt about that, there was David Paxmans, you must all about, the great big diesel firm, they did some lovely er diesel engines for the high speed trains which, of course, obviously been superseded by electrics, they used to employ three thousand people and when I started in college we didn't enrol their apprentices on the college site, we went to Paxmans and we enroled one hundred apprentices every year... on a five year course, that mean they had a five hundred apprentices in a pool, didn't they, just like that! You guess how many recruited this year can't you? They've gone from three thousand down to eight hundred and th they've actually recruited five! But as I say, and then er, the other one which I can tell you was, which is absolute disaster! Colchester Lathe Company was started in Colchester, they just sold their site to Tescos! So once again, I'm on the gloom and doom to a certain extent, but it does worry me because you see... somewhere down the line, ladies and gentlemen, we shall need this skill, we shall need this pool of skilled people, and at the moment they're just not there at all! Cos I say, when you've got a pool of skilled people who can move about, quite obviously, other firms are gonna be very interested and gonna take them up. So at the moment we are really in a bit of a problem about the number of er... apprentices being trained, or shall we say trainees being trained across the U K, K at the time,a a at all! But, once again, let me be on the positive side because I mean there's no doubt about it there are firms which are doing extremely well in spite of recession at the moment, and they are training people as well, but they're not training in numbers we really need when we go across the patch as a whole. So, what the Engineering Council is trying to do is to stimulate interest. In a way, I'm interested at the Engineering Prize Federation... and C B I have also began to realise that we can't survive, and I'm sorry if you're retailers, can't survive on the service in this country, we gotta survive on a manufacturing industry in this country and the only way you can do that is by having, really a pool of trained people. But this kind of stimulus neighbourhood he engineers point of view is actually extremely interesting and give you a hell of a lot of job satisfaction because you are getting the youngsters really involved in what it's all about. And I mean we, quite obviously, we get them involved with er school trips, as a matter of fact, I've just organised a er... thing I've got here at the moment... organised a er trip... must be a good one mustn't it! Sizewell B... I mean you all heard of Sizewell, we're quite near our Sizewell. At the moment they've a very good training plant for... for Sizewell B, they show you the old erm... magnox station, but they also the pressure water reactor station, and course also we've got the very old one down at Bradwell if you know about, down on the Me West Merseyside, we got the old power station down there. But, firms are beginning to open up and give us an opportunity actually to take youngsters in and see what it's all about. And really, Sizewell B is really a reprovation because it gives you an idea... what the technology's like and how we're on top of that new technology itself. So, at the moment the Engineering Council, with the institutions at the moment are doing their best to stimulate interest into er engineering across the schools. And at the same time, lady and gentlemen, to improve the image, cos you'll still get the problem, you know, I'm an engineer, what do you do? I repair cars something like that! When you realise of course that there's a hell of a lot of erm... scope for well trained, well qualified engineers. And perhaps the biggest draw back we've got at the moment that to ge, become a chartered engi engineer you've gotta have a degree! And of course at the moment there's hardly anybody taking the A levels necessary to go into the engineering stream throughout the university itself. So, gentlemen, what I'm really doing is to show you a bit of the background and the fact that it's not all doom and gloom... there is... a hell of a light at the tunnel... and in matter of fact, we got another lecture on the channel tunnel [LAUGHTER] in a few days time []! In other words, there are marvellous projects going on which really stimulate the interest of everybody, and it's, the Engineering Council's still trying to push them along into the twenty first century itself. Thank you very much indeed gentlemen! [speaker004:] [applause] [John:] Thank you Donald. Could I ask er, Rotarian Alan to give us a vote of thanks? Oh, I beg your pardon! Any questions? [Tom Grundy:] Would anybody like to ask any questions? I'm sure somebody would. Yes Go, Gordon! [speaker004:] Yeah. I I was interested in you saying about the... doom and gloom which is [Donald:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []! [speaker004:] always spread... a and I I was listening to or or during a programme and it said er, we're always told how firms are going down the shoot! No one ever says... some have been created... and all the time they say there are lots of firms which have been created but they... they never give that publicity at all! [Donald:] No! At a matter of fact, it's rather interesting that because somebody actually had a go at Peter about this, he's a B B C er... and we er, we shouldn't enter into politics about this, but you know the background of Peter. [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Donald:] But anyway, the point is, he does actually bring doom and gloom! And you're [speaker004:] Yes. [Donald:] quite right, the statistics he was actually talking about, and somebody actually pulled him up on th, up on this and said, okay you're talking about the number of firms who went to the wall, but what about new firms being created? And, of course, the trouble is, and once again I'm back into a... a bandwagon effort of mine, is the financial aspect, if you actually examine the Japanese philosophy, then their loan system is totally different ours when it comes to regenerating the manufacturing industry. I mean, their loan periods are somewhere about twenty five years whereby you probably realise in this country if a young er person wants to start a firm and he's go to the bank they're not gonna give him much scope at all! But, it's no doubt about it, you're dead right! The number of people who are regenerating firms is quite interesting. And also, remember, the firms, which as I say, were dying on their feet in any case, and I me, I did quote the Colchester Lathe because I felt so... personally about that cos it was Colchester itself... they have actually moved their division up to Leicester itself. But I still say, it seems a shame that they... are prepared to make money by selling it to a... [LAUGHTER] Tescos of all people [] to er... really make money so they can move somewhere else! Which, no doubt there are people are regenerating theirselves, and once again, talking locally again, of course, realise Marconi's are in a bad way but they have got some marvellous er... er new stuff coming along, but the point is er, obviously in the defence industry, in the er radar works, quite obviously you're not getting that kind of demand. But on the other side, what we call space... space communications, and Marconi's have got a marvellous new product, it's well into the twenty first century! But they don't need the number of people they did before. But you're dead right! Okay? [Tom Grundy:] John. [John:] President, I I happen to be going on Saturday to the National Final of the Rotary... Young Inventor of the Years' er convention this [Tom Grundy:] Ooh! Yes! Mm. [John:] weekend. I just wanted to ask our speaker if he's heard of it? [Donald:] Oh yes, I have heard it, oh yes indeed, yeah! [John:] Erm, because I was rather sad, I I tried to instore the Rotary Club in the district... in taking part, or or encouraging their [Donald:] Mm. [John:] local schools [Donald:] Mm. [John:] to take part... and sadly, there weren't very many! And I think from memory, there was no one in the Colchester area so... quite [Donald:] Oh well! [John:] sad but er [Donald:] I must get in touch with er er [John:] Well I can give you some names to start with! [Donald:] Well you know who [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Donald:] the ex-President of Colchester Rotary is the principle of the college isn't he?. You know, John? [John:] Yes, well I have met him, yeah. [Donald:] Yes, I'll have a word with John about that! [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's very er th er... if you like, Rotary is is trying to do a a bit [Donald:] Yes, that's right! Yes I did know about it. And I'll have a go at John! [LAUGHTER]... Thank you! [Tom Grundy:] Yes? Alan? [Alan:] Do you think there are enough places in the Universities for engineers? [Donald:] Enough places? [Alan:] Yes. [Donald:] Well, that's quite an interesting point because there are enough, the only trouble at the moment is not enough people taking the necessary A levels to go into these places. I mean, my own al, local university is Essex, and they specialize in er, what we call, electronic systems theory, and also in basic engineerings themself. But I was talking to a Prof up there the other day, the actual A level, do you know, it's pathetic really, I mean when you're talking about law degrees you want about threes A's at A... and now even accepting C's... A, A level C's for engineering itself! There are enough places, but we haven't got the qualified people unfortunately! Perhaps some of those erm, five and six year olds I was talking about will get there eventually! [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Tom Grundy:] Any further questions? Er... further to what John said about the er, Young Inventor, we were fortunate enough last year to have... er our competitor, or we had a, we held a competition locally [Donald:] Mm. [Tom Grundy:] which I think there were four competitors, one of whom got through to the district final and eventually to the national final that John is going to on Saturday. [Donald:] Ooh that's good, yeah! [Tom Grundy:] Erm... we [Donald:] Mm. [Tom Grundy:] wrote to all the same places again this year... and the response we got back from the schools was that... this particular year they've got nobody coming forward who they consider would [Donald:] No. [Tom Grundy:] be suitable but [Donald:] Mm. [Tom Grundy:] do apply again next year because [Donald:] Yeah, that's right! That's right! [Tom Grundy:] there are pupils who will probably [Donald:] Yeah. [Tom Grundy:] make it next year. [Donald:] That's right! [Tom Grundy:] So [Donald:] There's hope for the future! [Tom Grundy:] Ah! Yes? Michael? [speaker004:] Mr er speaker... erm... finance always to a certain extent... and I... wonder about finance in your organisation. No doubt, all the... companies pay money... into their chartered unit and... you, they pay money to... your council [Donald:] Yeah. [speaker004:] to run the organisation. [Donald:] Yeah. [speaker004:] You mentioned about... training [Donald:] Yes. [speaker004:] and the lack of training... do you not feel that the government should put more money into the company to allow apprenticeship to take place rather than of thinking the company's gotta foot the bill every time? [Donald:] Oh he's got me a on a good band wagon now! Because the trouble is, I can go back to nineteen sixty four, Industrial Relations Act, which I thought was one of the best things ever bought out, whereby er... the erm... terms were levied to do so much training. The only trouble is, it's sporned so many, I think they got about twenty eight industrial groups! But, the major ones, I mean the engineer ones used to levy all firms two and half percent... and therefore, there is an incentive to do a certain amount of training itself, and the finance obviously was self-generation itself. Now, of course, we got problems now where they've all been abolished and is virtually on a voluntary basis, and I say, it'll be rather interesting to see whether Lamont actually is going to release some more money, cos you probably realise at the moment they're cutting back on that particular budget. But I mean, one of the major problems is a fact, these youth training programmes or Y, YP's as they call them, are alright but they're not really getting down to the basic er... training we need! And as I say, you can't really beat what I call the basic training apprenticeships which you're to come through. There's no doubt about it, the government should do a lot more... and... I'm sorry to leave on this kind of... basic note, the thing what really got was when they were talking about the coal miners... and I mean, I know that particular area quite well, where they, they said we'll put some money in for training! Training for what? Cos I wa, I was directly involved when I did a hell of a lot of work for Marconis, they sent me up to Glenrossi's cos they got a micro er, electronics factory up there doing... micro-chips, and one of the big coal mines up there had just been closed down and they said well, there's no doubt about it, you know wha what we gotta do is re-train the miners! But, unfortunately of course, with that type of work, their wives could do it, but the miners couldn't do it!. It's a different philosophy altogether! But I agree with you, more money should be made available, and we won't go into how much money they lost on trying to save the pound! [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Tom Grundy:] Gentlemen! I will now ask er... Rotarian Alan to... propose a vote of thanks. [Alan:] Mr President er, Mr speaker Donald [Donald:] Mm. [Alan:] thank you very much indeed for... a very informative talk erm... I am actually, myself, er a chartered structural engineer... so, what you had to say was of, of deep interest to me! Unfortunately I'm... rather pessimistic about the situation obviously at the moment! Erm, I think er... your idea of of getting the ins professional institutions together [Donald:] Mm. [Alan:] to work for a common goal is... admirable! But, I do suspect that erm... I think we're all probably guilty of guarding our own [Donald:] That's right! [Alan:] very [Donald:] Mhm. [Alan:] very,je jealously but, none the less, I I think er... it's admirable that er you're attempting to do this! Erm... again, you say that you're going round to all the schools and what have you, and again, this can only be... extremely good because, after all, this is where the future engineers ar are going to be coming from! Erm... ha! Regarding the current situation, recession,i it's... really hitting, particularly my er, my er business [Donald:] Mm. Yeah. [Alan:] in the construction side [Donald:] Mm. [Alan:] erm... er and... one wonders after all the training where the future jobs are gonna come [Donald:] That's right! [Alan:] from! [Donald:] Aha. [Alan:] To be absolutely honest! I think that er... quite honestly, if so if something doesn't happen shortly we'll all be making ping-pong [Donald:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] [LAUGHTER] ping-pong ball []! [Donald:] [LAUGHTER] [Alan:] Erm, and, and I think... sadly, as well the problem is that if this recession does go on for any length of time then we will be losing many of our [Donald:] Mm mm. [Alan:] erm... manufacturing [Donald:] That's right! [Alan:] skills! [Donald:] You will indeed! [Alan:] And which we will never get back! [Donald:] Mm. [Alan:] Er, as I say, I'm ra, I'm very pessimistic about it at the moment but [Donald:] Ha! [Alan:] none the less, thank you very much indeed Donald for giving us a very er... encouraging talk! [Donald:] Mm! [Alan:] Erm, informative and probably above all, a very enthusiastic talk! [Donald:] Mm. Yes! [Alan:] I'd like to ask all the members [speaker004:] Yeah! Yeah! [Alan:] to show their appreciation in, in the usual way. [speaker004:] [applause] [Donald:] I've got some brochures if you'd like to take them away. [Tom Grundy:] Mm.... How's that for timing! [Alan:] Yeah,! [Donald:] He was kicking my leg all the while! [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Tom:] Oh, just one little notice I do have that erm... several of us are going on Thursday to the, on the trip to Docklands by the erm... erm... Rotary Club of Sawbridgeworth... erm... I'm told that there are still one or two... odd seats if anybody wants to come at the last minute... er, he doesn't anticipate he's going to erm... fill them so even if, late Wednesday night you suddenly find you are available, by all means, contact and I'm sure it can be arranged. Er, it's seven fifty per head... coach from Harlow at nine in the morning... get back again about five, we intend to beat the rush hour... and it's a conducted tour of Docklands... and the city airport... with a guide, and also viewing of the visitor's centre at Docklands, and then about two and a half hours, probably three, to roam around the area yourself. If anybody's interested... contact me and I will be only too happy to... put you forward. I've also had a call from, you may remember... er, Phil of the er, the was to give a talk to the... Bishop's Stortford club in the form of a speaker evening. I understand that that, that has now been cancelled... erm, at least, the speaker has been cancelled but the evening still goes forward on Monday the sixteenth... and they've now got a jockey... whose name I can't remember, I'm sure John would be able to help me but er [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] [Tom:] he's one of several. Erm... er, who will giving the talk for them. Er, at the time, we had no response when this was announced by Jim... erm, it does in fact clash with our... council meeting... but in view of the fact that erm... our business meeting Se, in December is not until the second Monday, I would be happy to put the... erm... council meeting back to the following Monday if there was sufficient interest from the... members. But erm, if so, please get in touch before Wednesday as they've, he rang me up last night and asked for... a final figure from us... which he must [speaker004:] Right. [Tom:] have by Wednesday. Erm... eight pound fifty is the cost on that one gentlemen. It's seven fifteen for seven forty five... at... presumably their club meeting place which is the erm [speaker004:] Oh! school. [Tom:] Yeah. [Tom Grundy:] [whispering] Centre []. [Tom:] I can't see the name there. However... anybody interested get in touch and we'll sort things out. Gentlemen, the sergeant at arms! [speaker008:] Thank you Mr President! Next week we're going up the river! We're going with Mrs Gill on their canal boat project and our hosts... are Michael and Ken. [Tom:] Thank you gentlemen! I'll now close the meeting with the final toast... will you please join me?... The toast is Rotary, the world over! [speaker004:] Rotary! [Tom:] Thank you! Well done! [speaker008:] Okay! Any, [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker008:] they're five P gentlemen! Would you like one? [speaker004:] Yes I'll have one please. No thank you. Hello Mike! Alright? [Donald:] Would you like one? Yes, go on then! [speaker004:] Thank you. [Donald:] Yes. [speaker004:] Very good!

[Audrey:] To breathe? [speaker002:] A clear airway? [Audrey:] A clear airway... have some causes of the airway, right what could stop? [speaker002:] Tongue in the way Tongue [Audrey:] The tongue well done [speaker002:] Vomit Vomit [Audrey:] vomit [speaker002:] Foreign object [Audrey:] foreign body, what did you say sorry? [speaker002:] Hanging, strangulation [Audrey:] Hanging, strangulation, that's right you can, don't forget you can block the airway from the outside as well as in [speaker002:] Chest restriction Pressure of the [Audrey:] Right, that's the next one, right, we also need chest movement... right what, what can stop the chest moving? [speaker002:] Stab wounds [Audrey:] Thrush, er chest, er stab wound [speaker002:] restriction, weight on it [Audrey:] restriction, well done you're [LAUGHTER] doing very well [] and overriding all this lot what do we need to [speaker002:] Brain Brain [Audrey:] The brain, right. I'm not going to go on to the things of the brain because we are going to do them further down the list. Sight and systems of asphyxia, what, how's a person he going to look? [speaker002:] Blue [Audrey:] Yes, they're going to look very pale with a blueish tinge [speaker002:] Fingers [Audrey:] Pardon? [speaker002:] Fingers [Audrey:] Yes extremities, the fingers, toes Pardon? [speaker002:] Distressed [Audrey:] Very distressed, yes, they can't breathe and your treatment for asphyxia? make sure the airway stays clear if they [speaker002:] Breathe [Audrey:] if they stop breathing? [speaker002:] breath for them [Audrey:] Breathe for your casualty, if they are unconscious what would you do with them? [speaker002:] Put them in the recovery position [Audrey:] Recovery position, right. Now the M here is for mind... and that includes obviously brain... now we come on first of all to the head injuries... head injury... there is a brain, now a pressure, accident which involves the head. It could be a break, this is the bone here, supposing there is a break there, pressing down on the brain, that is a head injury, this part here is the bolt by the way and that is a injury to the bolt of the brain, just the top. The base of skull injury is here, when you get somebody with that base. Can you see how thin that is there? It's very thick on the outside but almost, you can almost see through some of the bone in the base there and that can be caused by as, a blow on the head if it's the bolt of the erm brain that's caused, got the injury, or from the base of skull is usually caused by er landing on your feet from heights, and [speaker002:] Jolts [Audrey:] it's, it's the shock comes up the legs, if it doesn't break the ankles or feet or these it can break the bottom of the bone, a piece here, or it can travel up and break the base of the skull. Now either way, obviously it's a head injury and must be dealt with, but we're going to do an overall thing here by saying right, now the next one on the list is concussion... now concussion is shaking of the brain inside the skull... now there's noth no room for anything but the brain inside that skull, so if that's shaken the brain hits against the sides of the bra of the er bone, and bruises... so what actually happens here is the brain gets shaken and the nerve cells get damaged... now you've all seen this con and it's so easily done concussion, you can go through a whole list of things which can cause concussion, road traffic accident, sport, construction working erm anything that erm, heading ball, football that's another one that erm you get quite a bit of concussion and of course boxing [speaker002:] Mm [Audrey:] [LAUGHTER] as we could, as I was talking to our group yesterday well, now that is the one game they set out to make a, your partner unconscious by shaking the brain inside the skull and that's what exactly what they're doing. A blow on the chin, don't forget the chin is part of the skull, blow on the chin, shakes the brain, your casualty gets concussion and they go unconscious... now how's your casualty going to feel? [speaker002:] Confused [Audrey:] They're going to be confused yes, very confused, I mean on the football pitch you usually get the trainer run man and they're talking to the footballer and it's looking at them all the time and he will ask questions, erm what's your name? Where do you live? What were you doing? [speaker002:] How many fingers? [Audrey:] That's it how many fingers? And all these are telling him whether the person is confused, concussed or what, whether he's able to go on, alright, erm check the memory... because that is a good indication. If your casualty, if you say to your casualty ooh what happened? How did this happen? And they say I can't remember it just happened so quick that I can't remember, they have been unconscious for a, it may be just a split second, it's affected the brain, they are concussed. So let's go through the signs and symptoms of concussion. They could have a headache depending on how it was caused, they could be confused, but not always and there could be that brief loss of consciousness and so you must check the memory recall... if they do know what's happened well then go back a little bit further to see if they can remember what they did last night or something but erm, make sure, on that memory recall. Now the face when you look at them... they're going to be very pale, cold and clammy... the eyes well, erm, unless they're really into concussion they're possibly normal. You see with these signs and symptoms remember you don't have to have the whole lot... a couple of them will give you an idea that this person is concussed. Their breathing will become shallow and the pulse rapid and weak... where's your casualty going? [speaker002:] To the hospital [Audrey:] Going to hospital... now concussion will lead us very nicely, have you finished that writing that yet? [speaker002:] No No, not yet... [Audrey:] Concussion will lead us very nicely onto compression and if anybody in your place of work has a head injury at all a knock on their head and they say, most people do don't they? Oh I'm alright don't worry about me I'm, they, the person at home, their family must be told as well as you making a note in your accident book that there has been somebody with a knock on the head however mi minor it is, it's got to be reported, because that knock could have repercussions, it could have broken a small vessel in the brain, it could still be bleeding and that is when compression takes over. Now a compression is, pressure on the brain, caused by fracture, bleed or blood clot... now if a person has been suffering from concussion and it's gone unnoticed, that bleed could be just carrying on and on and on and it could take up to four to five days before the compression shows itself... so perhaps a week later they're sitting down to breakfast saying ooh my head hurts, now the poor wife or husband, or whoever it is doesn't know about that knock on the head that they had previously, unless somebody's told them about it... mm, so your casualty now is going to have this headache and a beauty, they're going to be confused... their levels of consciousness it will deteriorate... face is very hot, dry... flushed... the pupils will become unequal and because of the pressure breathing becomes noisy... if you feel the pulse, it's going to be slow and strong... and you will get paralysis on the opposite side to the compression, what are, what are the signs and symptoms of? [speaker002:] Stroke [Audrey:] Who? [speaker002:] Shock [Audrey:] Stroke, stroke, not shock, what's the signs and symptoms of shock? [speaker002:] Pass the body for bad circulation [Audrey:] Yes, what's the signs and symptoms? [speaker002:] Pale isn't it basic [Audrey:] Pale, cold, clammy, yes, this is the opposite, you've got all the signs and symptoms here of a stroke, now if, this could go on with and erm if somebody, if something isn't done very quickly with this compression the person has still got this bleed, or clot in the head and eventually they just kind of all come up into the foetus position, literally all goes spastic, all these spastic movements... right, you finished writing? [speaker002:] No Hang on a second [Audrey:] Nearly? [speaker002:] Nearly [Audrey:] Nearly... [speaker002:] That's where it all comes confusing cos there is things in there which still ascertains the shock in that as well as the other... [Audrey:] There's the shock [speaker002:] Yeah, yeah [Audrey:] right [speaker002:] Right [Audrey:] Yeah, but you're going to look at your casualty [speaker002:] Yeah [Audrey:] now there's no comparison in the pale cold clammy position that shock produces [speaker002:] No [Audrey:] to the hot dry flush that, that the stroke and the compression... so there's the conditions there, your compression and your stroke will be identical signs and symptoms because you've got pressure on the brain... concussion you will get all the sign and symptoms of shock... okay? Does it make sense to you? [LAUGHTER] All in favour say aye, how's that? Right, let's go on a bit further..., so we've just done concussion, compression... er the next one is an illness, epilepsy... now epilepsy, two types, you get the petit mal which is the small fit and the grand mal which is the erm large fit or the full, full fit. Now anybody can have erm within the areas if you like our part, no you don't have to have all the signs and symptoms to say that person has had an epileptic fit. With petit mal, the small fit, it used to called vaguely, you could talk to somebody and then go on nattering away and then suddenly the person would switch off and then just stare and then after a while they come back and talk to you and it's, they pick up exactly where they've left off, so as I say it used to be called day dreaming, now that's the low end of the scale, now we go to the other end of the scale and remember please that... there's no set type for an epileptic, anybody, anywhere, any age at any time can have an epileptic fit, you don't have to be that type, don't. Now what actually happens, now as I say I'm going to the far end, your casualty may literally shriek as they go down, now this is the person that has no warning at all, they may shriek as they go down and it's the air that's coming out of the body, they will go rigid as every muscle clenches, the teeth clench, the muscles go rigid, erm and they're going to be very, very blue because erm, because er they've stopped breathing which seems like an eternity. Now at this st this stage usually the do-gooders who don't know any better and put and insist that something should go in the mouth and it shouldn't, you never ever put anything in anybody's mouth at all. Somebody's car alarm's gone off... no, right, now this where lots and lots of people used to really moan, the, the person that was having a fit would absolutely go through hell because somebody at some stage had said oh you must put something in a person's mouth that has epilepsy. The answer is once they've clenched their teeth there's nothing you can do about it, if their tongue is there I'm afraid it's just hard luck. Tablets control epilepsy very, very well now and you can go for probably years without an epileptic fit, then all of a sudden erm somebody will think oh I'll try leaving off my medication and of course they have a fit. Erm, er, now of course to get back to the ambulance erm if somebody comes out of an epileptic fit and goes immediately back into another one, then you must call an ambulance, it takes so much from the person, it takes so much energy that the person can't possible go into one fit after another, erm without showing some affects and therefore you would have to get them to hospital, if you don't and they have two or three fits one after another they can die, so they must go to hospital. Now if your person were to say come round, said it's the first time they've had a fit you get, call an ambulance, it may be epilepsy but it could be anything else, it could erm... be, be the start of er something else in the brain because that's all an epileptic fit is, it's an electrical impulse, nobody actually knows why or when or how it's caused, but it happens... erm, but above all be very, very nice to your casualties, they'll want to get up and they'll run away, they want to get out, especially if it's outside, because they're embarrassed by it. Now this is the time when you must watch them, because it can take from two to two days, two hours from two, two hours to two days to regain control of the brain, depending on the person and if it's, happens outside and they want to get away, stress the fact you get up and run under a bus and they don't mean to obviously [speaker002:] Mm [Audrey:] but they're not in control of their body, so you must watch them, talk to them and if, if you can walk along the road with them, talking to them... now the, there is the other type where you get the aura, they know they're going to have a fit, so if somebody at your work place comes along and says to you I'm gonna have a fit in five minutes, I mean don't laugh at them and think ha ha, take them to a room where they're safe and this applies to all epileptic fits, they've got to be safe, so you're going to clear a room of any danger, they're laying down on the floor theirself because they've got time they know they're going to have this fit, if they've got something to put in their mouth alright they will put it in their mouths themselves and once again they've got five minutes to do it in and then that person will go through their fit, you stay with them, you comply by their wishes, if they say to you right, well just leave me when I come round I, don't touch me I'll be alright, they know, so you, you comply by their wish wishes, erm... but only go in when you feel it is necessary, if they say right, erm I, I should regain consciousness in ten minutes and they haven't, you're there, you stay there in case make sure they're safe, there's nothing there that can hurt them, then they'll probably get up at the end of the fit and erm go into a room for a rest and say thank you very much and er, erm that's it. Right that's epilepsy. Any questions? [speaker002:] How do they, what sort of aura do they get that they know that they're going into a fit? [Audrey:] Erm, sometimes they get a certain er whiff of something er, you know an imaginary smell [speaker002:] Smell [Audrey:] erm, something may flash across the, the face you know eyes or whatever, it's er an aura that there is particular to them or peculiar to them. [speaker002:] My husband feels as though somebody is co chasing him [Audrey:] Yeah [speaker002:] and he says he's after me and he just puts his arm round me and then he's alright after that [Audrey:] Yeah [speaker002:] and then he has a sleep for half an hour [Audrey:] That's right, most people with epilepsy they're much better if they go to sleep and you don't wake them up, if you wake the person up from a sleep that's just had an epileptic fit they'll be vomiting, but if you let them sleep through it then erm, then they're usually fine. Right, next one is poison... must get a move on cos we're running a bit late... so as we're going to poisons later I'll just go on to say here that there's four ways poisons can get into the body. You can breathe it in through the lungs... you can swallow it through the mouth, you can inject it through the skin and you can also absorb it through the skin. Now breathing, breathing in erm poisons, we'll go over this in more detail erm, there's so many things as we've already gone through that can cause us asphyxia, one of them's poison in itself isn't it? You've got to get your casualty from the cause, but make sure it's safe for you, now if it is a, a place where you've got to get your casualty out and you haven't got a lifeline and I must express this really that there must be two of you and if you are going in you only go in if you think it is safe to go in and you must have a line attached to you and there's somebody outside, so that if you do get erm overcome by fumes or whatever, they can pull you out, you are safe, they'll see to you, if there is no hope, you don't try to be the hero, what you do is go and make a phone call and get the professionals in, because they don't want to come along and have to deal with two casualties, when there's only one. So make sure it's safe, take your casualty from the cause, you may have to resuscitate, now if a person swallows something by mouth, there's two types of poisons, one can go by mouth and one is er corrosive and the other is non-corrosive, but at the same time you have a liquid or tablets, now if it's a corrosive liquid that you have swallowed or somebody has swallowed, it's burning as it's going down, and may I say in first aid you never ever on any circumstances make anybody sick... er especially poisons, can you imagine if it's burnt going down it's probably perforated the food pipe and somebody comes along and overdoses on the water, because you can give sips of water for corrosive, well it's because you're trying to keep the airway open, if it's burning, corrosive is burning you'll get swelling, so this is why you give sips of water, but if you give too much your casualty will be sick and if it's burnt going down and perforated the tubes and they're bringing it up again it's gonna burn coming up and go into those perforations that and cause further damage. So what you're going to do with your casualty that's swallowed poison is, is sips of water while they are conscious, don't forget nothing by mouth once anybody is unconscious, and get them to hospital as quickly as you can. Now if, don't wait, if you know somebody has swallowed a poison whatever it is, get them to a hospital don't wait for the signs and symptoms to appear, get them to a hospital. Now if it's tablets they've taken... we don't do whatever Angie did years ago in, in Eastenders and, and then she's walked up and down and given gallons of coffee, what you do is keep your casualty at rest, nil by mouth because you, if you give them any fluid whatsoever it's going to dilate, dilute the tablets that are in the stomach, and once they're diluted they've gone into the system quicker, mm, so there's nil by mouth, now if you're going to get up and walk them up and down because come on you must walk up and down, what's happening to this per these tablets? [speaker002:] Going into system Being pumped [Audrey:] They're being pumped around the body even faster so therefore that's going to take hold of the person faster, so you keep them at rest, into recovery position if possible and get help, don't forget to er collect any evidence of what the poison is, it must go with the casualty. Now injection, two types of people inject, the drug addict and the diabetic. Would you know if you came across somebody and erm... could you tell the difference between a diabetic person and the, a per drug addict if they were unconscious? [speaker002:] Smell their breath Smell their breath Proof of identification perhaps [Audrey:] You could look for identification if, yeah [speaker002:] Pupils [Audrey:] Pardon? [speaker002:] pupils [Audrey:] Yes you could do but the point is the, it's where a person injects, a drug addict always injects into a vein so therefore they get these pin marks over veins, not necessarily, the veins go between fingers and toes and wherever, but they go into a vein where the diabetic goes into the muscle, into the arms, round the stomach area or the thigh. Now if you know that somebody is a drug addict and they've just had an injection you keep away from them, erm if they're having a bad trip, whatever they call it, because you don't, they become very violent, they can do a lot of damage, now the only time you will step in and help is when they go unconscious, but at the same time remember protect yourself, we're talking about needles here and probably shared needles, you must be terribly careful that you do not get pricked by a needle, especially if, they have a habit of sticking needles under lapels, so always be aware of this, if a person is a drug addict, in fact if you can find some easier way of turning them into the recovery position, do so, erm, you can then obviously either call the ambulance. Now the diabetic, I'll leave that for a moment because I'll do that in a moment, erm the absorption, usually gardeners, agricultural people that have, dealing with ordinary insecticides, pesticides, herbicides and all the other -cides that er, are about today, they're usually protected, but sometimes either you get somebody in a garden with and using all these things and they, they don't read packets do they any more? They think ah look there's a bit of drop of water in, there's a packet of something let's stick it in and stir it up, they never read a packet to see what it could do. Now if somebody has got a load of chemical open and it is being absorbed, you must protect yourself first, if they are still conscious well then they will take off their own clothing, you do not unless you have got protective clothing on. Once they've, you've got their clothing off they can probably stand in a shower, but remember to take their boots off or whatever or shoes of because if you don't they're going to stand in a, in a dilute solution of whatever it is that's being absorbed by the skin. Anybody working with chemicals should know, they are very silly to work with a chemical that they don't know what it could do, the first aid treatment, in fact, erm, anybody here work with chemicals? So you all know the correction regulations yes? And you know it from cover to cover? [speaker002:] No [Audrey:] [LAUGHTER] Well I think you should because erm, remember it's up to you... you should know. Now if you're going to put somebody under a shower as I say be care be very careful that you're not splashed and get the ambulance on the way. Some of these chemicals don't mix with water and this is why I did mention COSHH because they are working in er conditions and with chemicals that probably don't mix with water, but you should know what the buffer is, yeah? [speaker002:] Yeah you spoke to, you, you should be carrying the antidote anyway [Audrey:] Yes, erm... no I won't spend any more time on that... because we'll probably come back to that anyway. But, now let me get onto diabetes, the other, the other illness what injects... now diabetics are very, very clean, they know exactly where they're going to inject, in fact they alternate, because if they keep to one spot then it's, gets a bit sore. Now with diabetes there's two types, too much sugar and too little sugar... now diabetes erm, Irene said to you, erm is controlled by the insulin in the pancreas in the stomach, it throws out this insulin the liver throws out the sugar and I'm not going into actual detail, but if there is too little insulin then it is allowing the liver to send out too much glucose, so if, if the person has got this erm pancreas that isn't churning out insulin or too little then your person will have sugar diabetes. Now the one we are going to talk about first of all is the too little sugar... where your person has been stabilized and they're taking insulin injections. Now hypoglycaemia, hypo meaning too little, glycaemia sugar. This one comes on very quickly and this is the one you are likely to have to deal with. Now say your diabetic has stabilized as they have done for, a couple of years or so with their insulin injection in the morning and their breakfast and that's how they carry on then till their tea break or lunch time they know exactly how much they're taking. Now they've come out the front door and the bus is running er coming down the road so they're running for that bus, so they're using up their energy, the insulin level's there, but the energy level is going down. They get to work, it started off one of these days didn't it so the lift's out of order and they work on the top floor, so they've now got to run up all those stairs, the energy is being used up. Now gradually the energy level is so low that the in although the insulin level is there, there's no sugar for it to work with, so now your casualty will start showing signs of too little sugar. First of all they'll go very pale and they'll start sweating and the pulse will be very rapid and the breathing will be shallow, now what are they going into? [speaker002:] Shock [Audrey:] Shock, but after a while their limbs' ll start trembling and they become very confused, now a person, a perfectly nice person, oh, you know, always very helpful and kind can suddenly become aggressive and they really do become aggressive and, if they go to violence their strength, oh where they get it from god only knows, but they could literally throw a person across the room. Now if you see somebody going into this state, you must give them sugar, it's no good waiting till they've fainted or become unconscious because you can't give them anything then, can you? [speaker002:] No [Audrey:] You can't give anything by mouth to an unconscious casualty because they'll, you'll choke them, they can't swallow. [speaker002:] Do you have safety first, they'll be able to throw you across the room? [Audrey:] Pardon? [speaker002:] They'll throw you across the room [Audrey:] Oh yes [LAUGHTER] you'll probably have to get somebody else as well, mm. Now if you've had, if you know you're a diabetic and see this happening in the, in the... get this, getting this, the size the shock, go up to them and say you know, have you had your right amount or have you taken some sugar and very often they'll pull up and ah yes I've overdone it. Now if you've got sugar on you when you're out give them sugar, four cubes of sugar and they're marvellous, they come round just like that and erm then they'll got off and stabilize themselves. As I say if they've gone unconscious then, or fainted, you've got to call an ambulance. [speaker002:] See a chap at work he's sort of day dream, you'll be talking to him and he's miles away [Audrey:] Yeah [speaker002:] Yeah [Audrey:] Was that one of his signs of [speaker002:] Yeah [Audrey:] yes, but you knew [speaker002:] Yeah, but you had to sort of force him to go and take some [Audrey:] Yeah, oh you will yes, yes [speaker002:] cos he wasn't interested in taking any [Audrey:] no, no, but once he's taken it and then he's come round and erm he realizes what it's, what he's done, yeah. So once a person becomes unconscious, remember they've got to go to hospital because they can only get worse, right, there isn't any, enough sugar in that body to, to be able to work properly so they'll only get worse. They must go to hospital. Now the other side, the hyperglycaemia... that is too much sugar, now whatever one it is, if you don't know the difference, the treatment is the same, you will give sugar even though this person has got too much, but this one comes on very slowly and quite honestly the person should realize themselves it's so slow. Their skin will be very flushed and dry... you'll get deep sighing and this is the one you'll get the smell of acetone, not always, you know the nail varnish smell, the pear drops, and then from there they'll get, they'll go into gradual I've put coma there, but gradual unconsciousness... treatment the same sugar, if it's sugar they want they'll come round almost immediately, if it's, they've already got too much well you have, that little bit's not going to make them any worse, they've got to go to hospital anyway. If a diabetic is unconscious urgently to hospital... okay, now that diabetes by the way comes under the A of our coma here, which is an illness, okay? Any other and I put diabetes in there... asthma is an illness which erm you may come across, it's the clogging up, it's something irri irritates the tubes, the windpipe and the bronchial tube and the person cannot draw air in, well they can draw it in but they can't get it out and they're, and they're trying very hard [groan] and the noise, has anybody heard anybody with an asthma attack? [speaker002:] Yeah [Audrey:] You can hear them from a long way [groan] [groan] now what you do is you sit them down and let them take up their own particular position, you can, if they've got their medication their Ventilin or whatever, you can put it beside them, they will know if they need to take it or not, get them with the fresh air and let them take up their own position which is usually leaning forward so that it expands their lungs, talk to them about something different because sometimes well they've got to think of what to answer you, it's relaxing those tubes, now if they're taking their medication and it doesn't work within about five minutes get them to hospital, because the only people that really die with asthma are those that have taken medication and keep saying I'll give it a few more minutes, give it a few more minutes and if they're getting worse and worse they're leaving it too long. So all, as I say erm, never used to be able to die with asthma there was but very few, but now it seems to be more common because people are not going for help when they need it. Right, I think we've been going on long enough and I think you've been sitting there long enough, ha

[Elaine:] We need you in a semicircle and the best way to do that is to push your chairs roughly around that grey line... [speaker002:] ... There's a nice swivelly one... [Elaine:] Erm you pass those round in either direction, from now on it's, it's bandage time. Denise is going to do bandaging and I'm going to do bandaging and so are you, so you have these packs and these packs, if you'd like to take one pack each, I don't know if there's a pin in them, you might find a pin in there please look after them and bring them back each day, you'll find a bandage and a roll of bandage in there... and... so their your own properties... In your text book you've got quite a lot of information in there about reinforcing, what we're going to do in the practical session and it's always a help I think when you have a lot of the, thrown at you to know that you can just put it up and there it is if you get a bit confusing or can't remember what's what, so on page one six nine it starts telling you all about nursing and bandages and general hygiene which we've already talked quite a lot about but it's very useful for you to know, you can go there and look, and if you just go through the pages from there on one seventy, one seven one, one seven two, one seven three and then on one seven four it's got the general rules for applying bandages... apply bandages when the casualty is sitting or lying down, you always sit your casualty down and you work from the front of, I say why do you work from the front of the thing? [speaker002:] So you can keep So you can see how they're looking, see if they're going pale a bit or if they're going to fall off their chair and talk and reassure them. [Elaine:] That's right, erm always make sure that the injured parts are well supported... bandages should be firm enough to do the job and large enough to cover the wound all of this is the sort of thing which you need to be referring back to if you're in any doubt. On page one seven five you've got how to check the circulation, after you've put the bandage on to make sure it's not too tight, it's not stopping all the blood supply, press a fingernail if there's only a finger nail and the, it should go white of course if you press it, then the blood should go back and it goes back pink again or an area of er skin, always check your circulation after you've put your bandage on. Now when you've actually opened your pack you'll find, what you got your triangular bandage here. Now I'm going to show you now how you going to put it away again, fold it, afterwards, opening it up... [speaker002:] ... [Elaine:] alright, everyone open their bandage up?... Now when it's opened it's useful as a sling, two sorts of slings we're going to do, high sling and the low sling but also if you fold it, it's very useful as a bandage too, if you put it across your knee, then you bring the point up towards you like that... and then again, fold it the base up to the top... again.... and again face up to the top and there you've got a bandage, okay? One stage before that you've got a very broad bandage which is helpful for supporting things, we'll learn about how to use that later. When you've got it to the final fold there you've got your ordinary fold bandage and if you want, pack it away like that, you bring the end in the centre, there, so and again the ends in to the centre, just so that they meet like this, like this the centre, just so that they meet there, again, start like this, ends just to meet in the centre don't overlap them too much and again bend into the centre and you've got a nice little pad, if you ever need a pad for plonking on a wound quickly, there you've got a pad, or putting against an ear or anything you want it for and you open it up quickly and you've got a bandage, two of those and you've got a but it's a very handy way to keep. When you've got your bandage in your pack, I've explained to you before, you open it up in the first aid kit it's sterile, yeah, you open it up by the one hand goes one way, one hand goes the other, break it open, put the cardboard away and you need to be ready to try before you pull the next bit off don't you because as soon as you've opened that it's not sterilized any more, so you open that up... and you find, unwrap it unwrap it as I showed you before with the first aid kit, comes out first... and then you see how the padding because this wadding is stitched onto the back, and the front is the bit you put against the wound and you put it straight against the would without or touching it and that pad should be big enough to cover the wound, so you should something, overlaps, alright, and then if you find, if you unwrap the roll a little bit further, you don't want to unroll it completely, your see that if while you're using it in practice you need to roll it up again backwards towards the back of the bandage like so, we'll roll it up again, backwards and when you get to the bandage you just fold the bandage up around the long end and wind the short end round it firmly and there it's ready for use again in practice, you wouldn't of course do that for real would you? Put away, use another one. So that's how you look after your bandages and all these things that we're going to show you you'll find in those little sections in your first aid book so if you get confused or why you've only got to look up in the book. Let's do the sling first. I thought we'd do the sling first, high sling because it's very important to get it high and not pull it, everyone, anyone gets asked to do the high sling in their exam and if you can put a good high sling on you're halfway [LAUGHTER] to passing [] [speaker002:] Mm [Elaine:] and from that it can't be bad can it? So I'll be the casualty and at the moment we won't worry about all the various things you use a high sling for, we just want to make sure that you can actually do it, okay? Can you just come back a little further and then they'll be able to see, better if all round the side [Denise:] Okay? Right, now then, be like this I'll pretend that I've done something that needs to be, a high sling to support me in this fashion. [Elaine:] And I, I'm going to be working from behind Denise because you all need to see, but you would be working from the front as I've already talked about, so you need your triangular bandage, alright, and there's your long edge, and there's your point as we call it, a sort of elbow shaped, think of that as elbow shaped because it always goes towards the injured elbow. Now, that when you arrange your sling in the first place, it's crucial to the success and ease of which you finalize the bit round the elbow. You arrange it so that this long side is vertically up and down the body, right, in that direction. Don't let it come across like that, the temptation is to think that you've got to have all this bit up here, now you don't want this up here because it's very difficult to cope with once you've tied it round to get it round the elbow, you want the least amount that you can get, just cover the arm and then it makes it much easier to deal with at the end. The amount at the top that you need is just enough to tie a reef knot oh I've forgot to show you a reef knot didn't I? Tie a reef knot. We all use a reef knot in erm first aid and again it is in the book a very good illustration in the book reef knot and then nobody knows how to do it, I will show you in a bit, but that's enough to do a knot, the knot comes on just above the fingers, in the hollow of the neck, okay? So that's how you arrange it like that, the first thing you then do is to tuck the spare bit under the hand, cos the hand then there anchors it for you [Denise:] Okay? [Elaine:] and the hand doesn't sneak out afterwards and starts popping out and then it's useless, then the rest of all this stuff you just get it out of the way under the arm, it's all gone, right, this bit comes up between the two shoulder blades, don't make the mistake of bringing it across there, a lot of people do that, that won't do, you have to come round the back and between these two shoulder blades to get maximum support, you've got to hold this elbow up and then you tie it near the hand, now I recommend that you tie it and talk to your casualty, half tie it and say is that supporting you enough? [Denise:] It feels okay thanks, yeah [Elaine:] Cos then you can draw it up a little tighter if it's too loose, if it's like that and, most people do it too loose, is that tight enough? [Denise:] No it isn't. [Elaine:] Right I'll just draw it up a little bit tighter, is that tighter for you? [Denise:] Better, better [Elaine:] And now I'll do the other half of my reef knot, right, and tuck the ends in immediately, they don't like seeing ends because they're considered dangerous in first aid so don't forget to do it, do the knot, tuck it in all in one movement and then it's done, okay, how does that feel? [Denise:] That's fine [Elaine:] Of course you're reassuring all the time as you do this [Denise:] Mm, mm [speaker002:] Got a bit that's fall down [Elaine:] Hello we haven't finished yet, haven't finished. Now you're gonna want a pin, these are rather small pins, I recommend that peop people who have got large hands try and fit their first aid kit out with large pins, they're much easier to handle, but firstly they do not put pins in their mouths for obvious reasons, either, either have it on the table open ready or just pop it in the front of shirt while you do this bit, okay? So you're going to fold this around the elbow to give support to the arm and in this one you're gonna fold first of all forward... and then back, can you see that little neat envelope? A neat little envelope that's supporting quite firm, that's supporting the elbow, now pin it, again, now you can see how important it is not to have lots and lots of bandage up here, cos what will you do with it then? It's too much, if you ever have too much you can just fold a bit down, if you have a big bandage you can fold either of those edges down first if you've got too much and then you fold it forward and back, now your pin sticks in, but all the material and out of all the material and it goes in a straight upward direction, again it must go in that direction so that if per chance it comes undone it falls out and drops on the floor, whereas if it was sideways or downwards it would open and stick in your casualty, so that's why we have it done that way. Would you like to see that again or do you think you could manage it now? [speaker002:] See it again [Elaine:] See it again, right, I'll just do it this time without talking it through, and you can just watch [Denise:] Yeah [Elaine:] and I tell you what we shall do we shall change arms [Denise:] We'll change arms as well [Elaine:] you'll need to practise on both arms. [Denise:] And there's no use getting in the exam on Thursday and say ah well I'm afraid I've not done it on that arm so erm lost [Elaine:] Okay, so there you are you see, you're, you're a first aider and you come up to the person and you hold it the way you did last time and you think ah, now that's the wrong way round of course, there's my elbow point, there's my injured elbow, so I have to be that way round, mm, so you turn it round the other way, right, your elbow shape goes to the injured elbow and your long line goes straight up and down the line of the body, you arrange it so that you only just covering the forearm there, with just enough above the hand to tie your reef knot... that would be too little and that would be too much... just enough above the hands to tie your reef knot, the first thing you do is to tuck nice, big bit of material right under the hand and anchor it into position, just keep that resting there and all the rest of this goes under the arm up between the shoulder blades there and you tie your first half of the reef knot just above the fingers in the hollow of the neck here, now that's important because round the back here if you press on that bit of muscle there, there's a big band of muscle, if you've got a knot on that it gives a great deal of discomfort very quickly so you want to get the knots round in the hollow here that doesn't hurt your casualty, there, draw it up half the knot, is that tight enough? [Denise:] It feels fine [Elaine:] Yeah [Denise:] that feels fine [Elaine:] and then do your other half of knot, reef knot and tuck it in straight away, you get your pin ready, have it on, either on the table or ready like that, now if you've got too much material ever you just fold that down, there, if that's too much, which isn't too much with Denise because it's the right size sling, sometimes you have to improvise and then you fold if forward and back, firmly, take the pin and put it, put your two fingers down between the casualty so that your fingers are apart and there's a space between your fingers so you can stick the pin in and out again without any danger, if you put the fingers apart like that, if you do stick the pin in yourself and draw blood would you please throw the pin away, as a matter of automatic hygiene, it mustn't be used again once it's been stuck into somebody [Denise:] Or in your casualty [Elaine:] or in your casualty, it must be thrown away [Denise:] Do it up, discard it [Elaine:] Alright [Denise:] get another one from the box [Elaine:] would you please make sure that all through these practices that you deal with different people all the time cos in the exam and for real afterwards you'll have to bandage all different shape people and if you just get, work in pairs you don't get that sort of practice, by all means start of with somebody next door to you but each time you do one go across the room and find somebody you haven't done before. [Denise:] And if the gentleman having to put bandages on a lady and you want to put your hand underneath there just excuse me a moment, alright, because in the exam one row of you will certainly going to have a lady bandage okay, put slings on and to bandage so it's just as well not to get to you know used to bandaging up great big chaps and then you'll find you've got some little tiny five foot two or five foot nothing lady bandaging in exam, alright, so swap around, so get yourselves so you've got a partner and use your bandages and let's just see you do the high sling to start. [Elaine:] All got safety pins by the way? [Denise:] Yeah they had them in the little packs, okay? Right [Elaine:] How many people know how to do a reef knot for sure? [speaker002:] No [Elaine:] Right, so I'm not wasting my time a reef knot then? If, if you look in your books page one seven seven, you'll see a beautifully illustrated instruction on how to do it, which you can refer to yourself this evening or later on in the course if you forget but I'm now gonna show you how to do one as well, you, if you want to know it's there for you to look up... you take the bandage and fold it into your narrow fold band... and put it round your leg, you've got something to tie a reef knot round, okay?... if you know how to do a reef knot already fine, just do it, if you don't, follow instructions. Narrow fold bandage... you've done it correctly then. The doing it the same way each time and a reef knot is the opposite way each time, alright, undo it, once again, just once again to make sure you know... are you ready? Once again, now it doesn't matter which way round you start, you can start left over right or right over left, but the second time you do it opposite to the first time, so the first time I put the left one over first and the right one over that and then tuck it through, just like tying a shoe lace really, okay? And the next, pick the ends up, I put the right one down first and the left one across it and then put that one through and then that's a reef knot... no that's a granny over there anyone not sure?... That, that's the one... you have to remember which one you put on which, that was the left on top of the right, now the right on top of the left... yes, come on which one did you do first? That's the right on top of the left okay, right on top of the left, now you've crossed over again left on top of the right, put that through there... okay... yeah... [Denise:] All okay I think [Elaine:] mm, yes all okay now, right. I bang my head, I cut my scalp, yeah, everybody, I bang my head, I cut my scalp, not massive bleeding none of the bandages we're doing this morning are to do with massive bleeding, they're all to do with what we call minor wounds, right so small cut, but it needs attention, okay, so I cut my scalp [Denise:] Cor [Elaine:] okay so I've got my pad [Denise:] it's a bit tender [Elaine:] alright, so I'm going to ask my casualty to hold my nice clean sterile pad that I've got folded ready over the wound, there, gently, okay? [Denise:] Yep [Elaine:] Then I'm going to take another triangular bandage and I'm going to open it up and make just a little fold, this is going to go on her forehead and that little fold just helps with keeping it firm and stopping the bandage slip, now, just put it around the forehead like that, okay? Cross it over, round the back, and back up to the front again, do a reef knot here... and tuck your ends in straight away of course like so and then this little bit can just be tucked up where you've crossed the two ends and make it look neater with no ends hanging out, no that, all that does is keep the dressing secure, keep infection out, okay? The difficult part about this one is that people all have odd shaped heads, now and you find that if you put them on too high they squidge off like that, and you've got to think of bandaging an egg basically, if you had an egg with a little hole in one end and you've got to put a bandage round you'd have to put it very carefully round the widest bit wouldn't you for it to stay firm and that's the secret, everyone's heads different and as you put it round you've got to see where you can get it, where, sometimes it's over the ears, sometimes it's above the ears according to the peoples' shaped, different shaped heads everyone's different, anything else? [Denise:] Okay, have a go at it and we'll come round and correct what you're doing as you're doing it, alright, so you want to pad over the wound to keep infection out and then try to get your bandage on top of that to keep the dressing in place. [Elaine:] Right, well we want to make sure that you can get out to lunch sort of by, that's running a bit fast that clock, we'd like to get you out to lunch by about half past twelve otherwise you'll end up being late don't you with all the other people [speaker002:] right [Elaine:] Right, okay, what now, erm roller bandages so you can put those triangular ones away for a minute can't you [Denise:] Let's do the elbow [Elaine:] and we'll do the elbow and knee... okay elbow and knee then using the roller bandage [Denise:] And again here it is two pages further on in your book, if you forget how to do it, just look up, okay?... [speaker002:] Roller bandages [Denise:] Well I fell over, slipped over in the car park out there, all gravelly and gritty out there and I scraped my elbow and I've got a nasty graze all on the elbow and it's all full of grit and muck, help [Elaine:] Come and sit down here my dear [Denise:] help [Elaine:] let's give us a little now if we've got a tap handy probably the best thing would be to run it under the cold tap and that hopefully would take away any dirt and extra bits and pieces that are stuck around it. If there's anything embedded in it like gravel or something and it doesn't come away easily you mustn't, it comes under the categories of what you call foreign bodies, which first aider is not at liberty to poke about, you must leave foreign bodies that don't come away easily where they are and bandage them round and send them off to hospital or a doctor, but assuming it's just a little clean graze, if I haven't got a tap to put it under, then I must use little bits of gauze to wash, put in a bowl of water and just wipe, yeah, and you always wipe obviously from the centre of a wound towards the outside, otherwise if you start to wipe across the whole thing you take dirt from one side of the wound across and drop it off in the middle somewhere, so you wipe from the centre out and throw that piece away and you take another piece and wipe from the centre out and so on until you feel happy, quite happy. [Denise:] I mean, well if you haven't got gauze in your first aid box, but you could have something like a Mediwipe or you might be able to use, open up your bandage and you can use, you know, several pieces of this, just keep going down the bandage and then you know clean it and get rid of that bit, okay, another clean bit okay, so you can adapt with whatever you've got in your first aid box, yes, and you won't necessarily have scissors to hand so you'll have to do whatever you've got and the little Mediwipes are very useful for that, but don't use one Mediwipe for seventy five grazes, okay, one Mediwipe for one wipe and then discard, okay? [Elaine:] Okay, so I'm going to open up my sterile dressing now [Denise:] So I actually put my arm out straight for you now? [Elaine:] Do you think it'd be better if you had it bent cos it'll be easier for you after I've bandaged it [Denise:] It's better bent is it? [Elaine:] Yes [Denise:] Okay, alright [Elaine:] it would be better if you can manage [Denise:] alright [Elaine:] to bend if it's not too uncomfortable [Denise:] so I can bend it, I can bend it like that then? [Elaine:] Right, you can only bend, you can only put the arm in the position that your casualty will let you of course, but it is more comfortable to have it bandaged in that position, than having it like that. So you open it up and you find which is your sterile bit and you put that over the point of the elbow and you can bring that once around and you can ask her to hold it for you, if you like [Denise:] It goes in there [Elaine:] right [Denise:] yes [Elaine:] and then you take your long end and you wind above covering the edge and overlapping and then the low, then covering the edge and overlapping, there and again you keep working your way up and... down, a figure of eight until you get to the end of your bandage then tie away from the body in your reef knot, either you tuck your ends in or if that's awkward you can just put a sticking plaster over the ends to get them out of the way like that, so just tuck the ends in and I don't think your casualty's going to need a sling for a little graze like that [Denise:] Right, and so that she can still move [Elaine:] and as the same thing applies to the knee exactly the same thing, wound there you keep the knee bent a little bit and you can do exactly the same bandage like a figure of eight, okay? So one person will do the bandage on the elbow and the other person with the good looking knees, you'll be the casualty for where you've got to put the knee bandage on, cos you won't, if you don't roll your trousers up a bit you're not going to have much bandage to do much bandaging with on the knee, okay, so decide amongst yourselves who's got the good looking knee Everybody okay now? [speaker002:] Yeah [Elaine:] Yeah? [speaker002:] Excuse me I've got a circulation problem [LAUGHTER] [Elaine:] Now... All okay then? Yeah? A couple more to show you then you can practise these when you have a bit more practice time so we can get you out to lunch on time. If you have to bandage a hand for example, okay?... Somebody's slipped over and they've got all the grit in their knuckles in the part of their knuckles and you want to bandage the hand or there's a cut on the hand, even on the palm, we can do that one later when it's really, when it's really a gash, gushing blood we can do this afternoon, I repeat again none of these which you've done this morning will control severe bleeding, get it into your heads this is just to cover to keep infection out, alright, these are not to control severe bleeding just covering a minor wound or a graze, right? So she's got her knuckles grazed, you've cleansed it, put it into a drop of water,ra or else we've used the Mediwipes or the end of the bandage okay, now we just cover it, okay, so it goes over, can you just straighten out your hand for me, it goes over the wound, okay and you can take this one that she can hold it for you just up there, right, now the rest of this just winds round, the only thing you really need to do is to just make sure that you leave the thumb out, cover up the bottom right and then come up towards the wrist, cover up the top of the pad, come back down again, leave the thumb out all the time, got the idea? Right, cover up again, come up towards the wrist, if you've got any more bandage, go round perhaps one more time... okay and just make sure at the end of the day that you don't tie too tightly round the wrist, why not? [speaker002:] Stop circulation [Elaine:] Absolutely, so really we want to tie away from this pulse point here towards the back of the hand, good enough [speaker002:] Yeah [Elaine:] right, tie it off in a reef knot, if you've got bits that are left dangling they're too long and you can't go round again because it's gonna make it too tight, you can either tuck them in or else you can fold them down, a nice clean plaster and put it right over the top, okay? Now that would do, that would do whether the, whether the knuckles were hurt or it was just a minor cut in the palm of the hand there, that would do and you can use the same type of bandage on the foot... alright, so that's if the hand was damaged, now supposing we didn't have the hand damaged, but we had instead a cut up here, okay, again clean it and if you clean it with lots of water always remember to dry off around the wound because bugs love a moist skin to grow in, dry the wound before you apply the dressing okay if you can, dry it off the best you can and then you're going to place that over the cut, remember you want the pad to be long enough, big enough, okay, now she can hold this for you again, she can hold it above where the wound is and now when you bandage this one you always bandage from the narrow part to the fat part of the limb, you always bandage from the narrow to the fat, so you take the bandage down [speaker002:] Why? [Elaine:] Because that way it stays on if you do it the other way it'll drop off it's as simple as that, okay, cover the pad and as you spiral up the arm all you need to do is to cover about two thirds of what you've just done before, just like a spiral, you find the bandages, the more you use those roller bandages of yours the worse they get to control because they lose their, you know, nice and stretchiness, so you just do, cover up the pad at the top, tie always on the top of the arm never underneath here. Check with your casualty that it's comfortable, yes? and does it feel quite firm for you? Not too tight though? [Denise:] No [Elaine:] And those bits again, either tuck them in out of the way or better still fold them over and put a big plaster over the top to get them right out the way so no ends are left dangling, remember for most people you're doing this for they'll probably be returning to their place of work, okay, so they need to be safe to return to work, everybody okay on that lot? So let's just recap on the ones you've done this morning, you've done a high sling yes [speaker002:] Mm [Elaine:] you've used a triangular bandage to cover a wound in the scalp, it's not a chopping block wound right, it's not the chopper in its wound right, it's just a minor wound in the scalp, yes, and that came round and tied at the front, tucked at the back, you used these roller bandages to cover a graze or a wound on the end of an elbow or a knee or the hand, foot and then a straight one up the arm... okay, so a lot of your bandaging is using these little roller bandages with the lint pad and don't forget when you get into the exam do it, don't do it the wrong way round, remember that you look at your bandage and you put the lint onto the wound, not the other way round right, yeah, you put the lint face down onto the wound, okay? Any questions of anything we've done?... All alright on that, yes? [speaker002:] We get time to practise these again before the exam? [Elaine:] Oh yes, now if by any chanc chance you do have a question in the exam where you're asked you know instead of the wound being on top of the scalp, some clever so and so decides that you're good at improvising and you've got a wound over the top of the eyebrow, the eyebrow's split, okay, so there wouldn't be much good of me going... a minute, pull that there, trying like this round there [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elaine:] right, okay, it's not really in the best interest of the casualty is it, right, now what dressing would you apply to that do you think? [speaker002:] A plaster Plaster An eye plaster, an eye pad [Elaine:] A an eye pad won't really sop up blood will it? [speaker002:] A roller plaster [Elaine:] One of them, of course you will, you use a roller bandage won't you again? In this instance you can put it across the eyebrow, right, across the eyebrow, ask them to hold it and if you're doing a bandage like this the way to keep it on is to have one part of the bandage going above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear... right, go above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear... okay and then finally just tie it off, get the idea? Okay, so they may ask you to use something which you haven't necessarily had to do before so that they're really all that the examiner's testing is that you've got a little bit of nous, a little bit of savvy and with what you've got available you can improvise a dressing or use the dressing in a sensible manner so that your casualty's comfortable and you're doing the best you can for them, okay? Lovely. Anything else to add Audrey? [Audrey:] No that's fine [Elaine:] Everyone alright then, okay, it's time for grub isn't it? [Audrey:] Yes it is, quarter past one please [Elaine:] Quarter past one back here, okay? Anyone want coffee? Anyone staying here and want a cup of coffee? [speaker002:] Yes please [Elaine:] Yeah we'll do one in a minute for you then So you have the heart of the centre of it, two pumps back to back yes, the major pump or the stronger pump on the left hand side, why? That's where the blood leads by, okay, on that side of the heart the left hand side of the heart it's being pumped and therefore the muscle is a bigger muscle, that's doing the contracting, the blood push out and it relaxes back again and that allows the blood to be sucked back down into the heart, okay, and the next time it's shh, that goes out and then it relaxes down again and the blood sucks back down into the heart, okay so that's what it does, all the muscle can do is that, muscle can only retract and then it relaxes, contract and then it relaxes, that's what the heart's doing all the time, how many beats a minute? [speaker002:] Sixty to eighty [Elaine:] Sixty to eighty you can feel it at pulse point, can't you, here, here, we'll show you so more in a minute, okay? So you know how to check whether the circulatory system is working because if it's working you'll be able to find a pulse... pounding away, yes, that's how you check it, you know the respiratory system's working because if you want to check it what do you want to look for? [speaker002:] Rise and fall [Elaine:] Rise and fall of chest... breath on your hand or your cheek, circulatory system working, pulse, okay? And that's what you're checking, the other side of the heart, the right hand side of the heart with a smaller pump, where's that pumping? [speaker002:] Blood out The lungs [Elaine:] Back up to the lungs, okay, now in that little system there, there's just one thing that's interesting to note, when you spoke about circulatory system this morning or yesterday rather with Audrey, you spoke about the blood being always leaving the heart, yes, via the arteries, yes [speaker002:] Yes [Elaine:] and always coming back to the heart [speaker002:] By the veins [Elaine:] by the veins, there's always an exception to every rule and the exception to that rule in the case of the heart and the lung connection is the pulmonary artery and the pulmonary vein, you may not get asked anything about this, but just in case you do it's as well to know, in that instance the flow is reversed, in other words the pulmonary vein takes blood away from the heart and up to the lungs, and the pulmonary artery brings the oxygenated blood back down to the heart from the lungs, if you want to have a look at the diagrams for that and look at it yourself later on, there's no need for you to get concerned or confused about this at all, there's no need. You'll find the little diagram showing you where the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery are on page eleven, page eleven if you want to refer to it... right, if you want to look at it in a closer detail tonight that's fine and if you want to see what I'm saying now in a diagrammatic form look on page thirteen... now if you look at that you'll see some, the blue vein blood vessels it's coming out of the right hand side of the heart and if you look at the direction of the arrows, okay, they're going away from the heart, do you agree with me? They come out of the heart and branch like a wishbone, one to each lung, do you see that, now the arrow direction is away from the heart... and that's a vein and you'd expect that to be coming back to the heart wouldn't you? And that's the only time you're going to find it when you're linking the heart and the lungs, now look at those two areas where you've got blood coming back down into the heart, can you see those two wishbones there coming back down into the heart, do you see where I mean, yes? Now those are arteries, that's the pulmonary artery... but it's coming back to the heart... okay, that's the only time you're going to find the rule reversed, arteries leave the heart, veins come back to the heart, and the only time that rule is reversed is when you're linking the heart and the lungs through the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery, however, they are still carrying, the arteries are still carrying oxygen charged blood, yes, because it's come fresh from the lungs so it's still carrying nice red lovely oxygenated blood, yes, even though it's coming back into the heart, that is because it's come fresh from the lungs and the vein although it's going in the opposite direction the way you normally expect it, is still carrying the old rotten, you know, used up blood, because it's going back to the lungs to be recharged, do you understand it alright? That's the only time it'll be reversed [speaker002:] Can you just say that bit about the pulmonary in the vein and the pulmonary in the wee artery again please [Elaine:] The pulmonary artery comes back into the heart, the pulmonary vein goes away from the heart [speaker002:] Vein goes home [Elaine:] back up to the lungs, they are linking the heart and the lungs [speaker002:] Yeah, I've written that down [Elaine:] alright and if you look at the diagram on page thirteen and you look at the little arrow diagram you'll see that it gives it quite nice and clearly there... is that alright? Just wanted to clarify that little point, so you know the organs that make up the circulatory system, you know how to check it, you know the one slight difference than what you normally expect veins and arteries to be doing... okay? Now we need to talk a little bit about what happens when the veins or the arteries or the capillaries for that matter, the veins, the arteries or the capillaries have a leak in them, they become broken, now you already know that the circulatory system is a closed system and that the blood can only do its job if it's being transported within that system, once the blood comes outside of that system then it's lost the circulation and it cannot perform its proper function any more, in other words the body's losing its blood, okay, what condition do we call it when the circulatory system stops working properly? [speaker002:] Shock [Elaine:] Shock, do you understand the difference between the loss of pressure and loss of volume, volume would be when liquid was leaking out, coming out of the blood vessels, okay, pressure would be when the heart itself, the pump itself had failed or was not working properly, failed completely or was not working properly, do you understand the difference? Obviously eventually if people keep on leaking blood their pressure will fall... but you could have a situation where there's not a single drop of blood yet lost to the system and yet the person's in shock because the blood's not being circulated properly off the heart, not a drop of blood lost to the system, but insufficient pressure, so shock can be caused by either of those two things, failure of the circulatory system because the pressure of the volume drops dangerously low, okay, you did a lot of work on what the person looks like, yes... you as the casu you as the first aider will see this person in front of you, what will they be like? What will their face look like? Let's start there [speaker002:] Pale [Elaine:] Very pale, very cold and clammy [speaker002:] Cold and clammy [Elaine:] okay, don't say blue, because otherwise you'll get it mixed up with asphyxia [speaker002:] Put [Elaine:] very pale, if you saw somebody in a hospital bed who'd just suffered shock, they'd be the same colour as the sheet they're lying on... their face is absolutely white, okay, very, very pale, very cold and very clammy, now supposing the doctor asks you why are they cold and clammy? Why are they cold? [speaker002:] Because they've lost blood [Elaine:] No blood near the skin, no blood near the skin, okay, why no blood near the skin? mm? [speaker002:] Guarding er the vital organs [Elaine:] Right, because the body is acting in order to protect its vital organs and it's drawing the blood vessels near the skin, shut down, you're not needed there, you're needed here, in the core of the body, because your blood is what warms your skin up, it's taken away from the skin, then the skin feels cold and clammy, yeah, clammy because of course if there's no heat, we sweat all the time and especially if somebody's had an accident or is seriously ill they will be sweating, yes, then there's nothing to dry the sweat off... okay, what happens when we sweat excessively in the summer time? [speaker002:] Dehydrate [Elaine:] You get wet, sweaty, but there's nothing to dry the sweat off, not sweating and drying off, so they feel clammy, okay, so we've looked at their colour and we've felt their skin and we've felt that it's horrible and clammy and cold, what about their pulse, we've gone down to the pulse now [speaker002:] It becomes rapid Fast Faster [Elaine:] Fast, anything else about it? [speaker002:] Weak [Elaine:] Weak, so why is it fast? [speaker002:] The arteries are pumping harder [Elaine:] The heart is having to pump harder, why? [speaker002:] Try to get more air into the arteries Is trying to get more blood round the system [Elaine:] It's trying to do the same work with the smaller amount of blood as it did with the full amount, ten pints perhaps reduced down to seven, got to keep pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, because that little bit of blood has got to get round and do a lot more work now, okay, so the blood's rushing round and the heart is pushing faster... because it's having to, because it's not enough of the, not so much pressure there, that's why it feels weak, weak and fast, okay? We haven't got much blood now, it's working away like mad, so now what are you lacking? [speaker002:] Oxygen [Elaine:] So when you hear people who are in shock, they'll be [heavy breathing] okay and that's how they are, they're panting, breath, right, very fast and very shallow, they're not calm, they're panting for breath all the time, okay, so that's how you see them. What are they going to tell you? How will they feel? [speaker002:] Want a drink [Elaine:] Bloody awful, in an awful, in a word, now qualified, how they bloody awful tell me?... [speaker002:] Sick [Elaine:] Sick, could feel sick [speaker002:] Could have a headache Stress Cold Light headed Faint Cold [Elaine:] Faint [speaker002:] Restless to talk to [Elaine:] Restless, disorientated [speaker002:] Mm [Elaine:] Okay, all of those things, what are you going to do for them? [speaker002:] Lay them down [Elaine:] You've stood and looked at them you've listened to what they've told you, now what can you do? [speaker002:] Lay them down and raise their legs [Elaine:] If it's humanly possible, lay them down, raise the legs, how about if they're shivering? [speaker002:] Maintain their body heat [Elaine:] Supposing they start sweating? [speaker002:] Remove Take some off [Elaine:] Okay, you want the body temperature kept at an even level, don't have it too high, don't have it too low, cos if you shiver you make use of muscles and then the muscles will call on oxygen and then you'll shiver, you don't want them there you want the blood in here, if you make them sweat you'll bring the blood to the surface of the skin again to lose heat, and that's again precisely where you don't need, you want it in the core of the body so you maintain an even body temperature. Shall we give them a nice sweet, hot cup of coffee? [speaker002:] No [Elaine:] Nothing by mouth at all, no brandy? [speaker002:] No [Elaine:] Nothing by mouth... what else can you do for them? [speaker002:] Reassure them [Elaine:] Reassure them, time's going by [speaker002:] Check Get help Ambulance [Elaine:] Ambulance, thank goodness someone's remembered, patting this person's hand, and putting blankets on and reassuring them, telling them everything's alright, and blood all over the floor, thank god someone's gone to get the ambulance [speaker002:] Stem the bleeding [Elaine:] Right, and stem the bleeding if you can see where it's coming from attempt to stem the bleeding, bung the hole up, okay?... Right, so now we've got round to what we can do for the casualty, let's have a look and see what the body's trying to do here and then we'll say... how you'll help them a bit more. If the person's bleeding, not just a little tiny cut now, not like the graze this morning, this is real, this is serious bleeding okay?... First of all... you've got the blood pressure falls, the body does that automatically for itself... mm, mm, the body does that for itself... how can we help it?... Falls partly because it's shutting down the ends of the arteries, the arteries themselves can actually contract because they're muscular walled, yes, the arteries can contract and that tends to shut down and reduce the pressure slightly in that area, right and also the body itself is gonna divert that blood isn't it to the core of the body taking it away from other areas, damaged areas, so how can we help to reduce the pressure any more? Supposing I've got a cut right across my wrist here, or someone has [speaker002:] Direct pressure Elevate it [Elaine:] Hold it up, now you're reducing the pressure to the area because the heart's got to pump harder to get it up there... okay, so we hold the hand or the limb higher than the heart and that will reduce the pressure still further, the ends of the blood vessels contract so how can we help them to contract even more? [speaker002:] Direct pressure [Elaine:] Direct pressure over the wound, not your hand but the casualty's if they're still conscious... blood clots yes, what's helping it to clot is a special process in the blood [speaker002:] Plasma [Elaine:] Not plasma [speaker002:] Platelet [Elaine:] Platelet, right, it's the platelet that help clot okay, so how can we help it to clot even more? [speaker002:] Fibrous [Elaine:] A better, put a fibrous pad over it, so a pad, pressure directly over the wound initially, that's the first treatment done, see to casualty put pressure immediately over the wound and raise the limb higher than the heart, then the first aid equipment that you'll need is a fibrous pad to bind over it, to keep the pressure on. Pad, pressure and elevation in most instances will stem severe external bleeding, pad, pressure and elevate, okay, let's just reinforce that for you... pad, pressure and elevate, right... and that should control a severe external bleeding. How will you know if the blood is coming from er an artery that's cut? pumping, yes, if I, somebody had slit me here okay, blood from my artery, it's probably quite easy, the television set, then after that it'll drop off obviously because the body is pulling the pressure down all the time, it does, okay, but if it was a vein? [speaker002:] Blue, blueish [Elaine:] and it'll flow out, okay, now we know that's the difference in colour and I've already told you that the arteries have got muscles in their walls, what's the difference in between the wall of the muscle, muscular wall, let's put my teeth back in, the muscular wall of the artery and the wall of the vein? the vein has got the valve to it, but only the veins in these parts, the extremities, you see, the lower abdomen and legs, arms, you don't find those veins everywhere [speaker002:] Is that because of the distance they have to travel? [Elaine:] with the vein's with the valves in everywhere, yes, it's because they've got to somehow or other, you've got to somehow or other get the blood back up to the heart again, it's not under pressure is it any more, cos it's lost a lot of its pressure and the way it gets back to the heart of course that is it's lying alongside the bones and the arteries and as you're walking around, okay, the arteries are still having the pressure working, the muscles are still working and the vein lies next to it and the blood is able to be milked up, it's milked back up to a non return valve, that shuts off and it can't drop back down any further and the next bit does the next bit up, okay, and then that shuts off and eventually it gets back to the heart and the capillaries... what will that look like when it's bleeding? Their bleeding capillaries [speaker002:] Bright red Oozing [Elaine:] Oozing, not bright red, but mixed, it's mixed bleeding really you've got from capillary and very often in any injury you'll get mixed bleeding, but are you going to be too concerned and analyze too carefully whether it's blood from a vein or blood from an artery if it's pouring out? [speaker002:] No [Elaine:] It's blood that's being lost at a high rate, it's dangerous whatever ver vessel it's coming from, so you will stop it by pad, pressure and elevation, you will attempt to reduce the loss of blood and assist the formation of a clot, once you've assisted in the formation of a clot, by putting the pad on it, would it be sensible to have a little peak to see how it's doing? [speaker002:] No, no [Elaine:] It would not would it, so leave it in position and if you need to put another pad over the top, then do that, more pressure and a bigger pad, never take the original one off, okay, leave it on otherwise you'll open up the wound again and you'll have all that problem over again, so pad, pressure and elevate, what if it don't work? Why don't you put say another pad on top, more pressure, it's still not working and you've tried it again and it's still not working [speaker002:] Pressure point [Elaine:] then you can go to indirect pressure and try to control the flow of bleeding by using indeed direct pressure, away from the wound, but where an artery, okay, is running near a bone, so you can compress the artery against the bone squash it hard, and for the arm you'd use this one under here called the breaking... now press, move your biceps muscle away and press underneath there, you can perhaps try to feel it for yourself, did you do that this morning or not? Or yesterday? [Denise:] I did do it yes [Elaine:] Mm, okay [speaker002:] Feel the pulse [Elaine:] so you felt that and that pulse point there if you press on it hard enough you can actually stop the one in the wrist and of course that is controlling the flow of blood to the rest of the arm and you leave a pressure point closed off like that for no more than ten minutes, because if you left it on for too long that it means not sufficient blood's getting to the rest of the, the limbs and the limb must have its blood supply, so you leave the pressure on for ten minutes and then release it, say for ten seconds just so say that the hand comes back pinkish again and if it's not slowing down, back on with the pressure again for another ten minutes and that's how you use it, tap off, ten minutes at the most, tap on for a little while, if it's leaked again reapply, ten minutes at the most, tap on again, okay and that's how you'll control it, so if you do have a sit a situation where the bleeding was bad cos you've got a, a limb severed, you couldn't perhaps put sufficient direct pressure over that limb, this done, right, to control the bleeding then you could use indirect pressure, here, breaking or here, right in the, no playing now please, no trying to find this one right now, do this one tonight, in bed and the old lady said now what are you doing to me, never you mind, go to sleep [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elaine:] find time [speaker002:] Say they just going for a walk, yeah, and you come across this, say this young kid has been climbing up the trees and hurt his leg, you're the only person around, so you, you've got to get help yeah, cos he's losing a lot of blood, but you've got to stop his blood same time as you've got to get help, yeah, so what's the priority, you just stay [Elaine:] Stop the blood [speaker002:] you just stay with him? [Elaine:] mm, eventually, hopefully somebody will come along or hopefully the blood will, the blood will slow down enough [speaker002:] To slow it off [Elaine:] will clot [speaker002:] Yeah that's what I mean, could you put a tourniquet on just for ten minutes to try and get help? [Elaine:] You don't put the tourniquet on at all, don't mention tourniquet in, in first aid work, it's a no no area [speaker002:] Say if it's in such a secluded place you know if you're gonna be there for twenty, er for days, there's no help [Elaine:] Well if he was there and you came along well that's two people, so it's not that secluded, okay, so we have to look on the positive side, if at the end of the day you're going to get to a situation where, okay, you can see that the ordinary erm true blue course of events is just not gonna work, then it's down to you, you have then got to make up your own mind what you're going to do for the casualty and your own safety, okay, if somebody had been bleeding that long and you couldn't of got help for them, what would your priority now probably be? What do you think they'd be like by now? [speaker002:] Dead [Elaine:] They'd probably be unconscious and they may of stopped breathing, okay, so you know, your priority changes as your time scale changes and you have to be aware of what to do and what is possible to do next... okay? If you decide at the end of the day the thing to do is to pick up this kid and run like hell for somewhere you can gain, wave for help, or put him in the car and drive like mad to the hospital, then you might just do that, even though it breaks all the golden rules of first aid [speaker002:] That's what I mean, because if, I guarantee if someone was put in a situation with blood everywhere and that, with being the first aider they've got to stay calm, but I, I'd say fifty per cent of all people would pick that kid up and run like hell [Elaine:] Right, they probably would especially if you could [speaker002:] it's just a natural reaction, you know [Elaine:] but I mean how about little Mel, wouldn't pick him up [speaker002:] It'd break him [LAUGHTER] Start digging [Elaine:] You'll be needing a burial won't you? [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Seeing as you didn't buy me a pint today [LAUGHTER] [Elaine:] Yeah, you might just do that, as I say all we can do is tell you what is possible, okay, there are going to be in your own instinct about what is the sensible thing to do and the right thing to do in that incident and take charge, and you will just get on and do the very, very best that you can, you know what you need to do, you need to stop the bleeding, you know what the person needs, he needs medical aid quickly... okay? But if you're in a situation where that's not possible then you'll do the very best you can, but you're always going to be on the look out for the priorities as they change, cos once the person stops breathing they become unconscious, they stop breathing, their heart stops, then everything else has to wait and you have to try and get on with that, okay? [speaker002:] Yeah [Elaine:] So indirect pressure, that one then is the feneral and that's the breaking, they're the only two we worry about, okay, the feneral and if they ask where it is don't sort of put two hands over and hang on to your crutch like mad because that isn't really where the feneral artery is [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Elaine:] okay, it is where the trouser crease meets the line of the groin and it's skin deep, okay, so you'll pushing onto it you'd probably have to put your two fingers and a pad and your knuckles right in there, alright and you'll feel it yourself best when you're lying down and your knee just up like that, that's when you can feel it best because you can push in harder then, cos you've relaxed your stomach and that's another tip for putting pressure on it when you've got somebody who needs that, you need to relax the stomach muscle, but you manage to put pressure up there okay? Righto the abdomen muscles not the stomach muscles right, everyone okay so far then? Alright, so we've done all that lot and you've got your external bleeding under control... you've used indirect pressure and direct pressure, now's another topping, there's always is isn't there? You can see the person is in shock, there's no sign of any blood... [speaker002:] Internal bleeding [Elaine:] internal bleeding, right... so the internal bleeding sometimes shows itself externally, for example if I had damage to my lungs or severe damage to the inside of my lungs I'd cough up blood and that's in, what do you think? What colour? [speaker002:] Frothy red [Elaine:] Very red and frothy, frothy colour blood, okay, supposing I had er damaged the lining of the stomach, or perhaps I've had an ulcer that I've perforated, and I was coughing up blood from the stomach... what colour might that be? [speaker002:] Mm, the fluid's gran granuled [Elaine:] Grained, granuley, browney, coffee [speaker002:] Coffee [Elaine:] colour, browney, that's from the stomach okay? Supposing that the damage to the intestines was further down in, in gut area here okay, and there was bleeding in the gut [speaker002:] Motions [Elaine:] Motions, right, black and smelly, okay, and according to how the different colour of the motion be there, or the different colour of the grains were there would give an indication of how long this' d been going on or how far up the gut it was, and the damage was okay? Supposing then that there was water with bloodstain in it, when somebody went to the toilet, urine, pass their urine, where, where would the damage be then do you think? [speaker002:] Bladder [Elaine:] Bladder or the [speaker002:] Kidneys [Elaine:] kidneys, so it'd come out in there, okay, so those are the areas where damage int internal organs, but yet you still have some sign eventually of blood loss, but there are still some organs in the body where there is no sn nowhere at all an outlet, the liver and the spleen particularly, round here, and the liver and spleen have no outlet in, outside if they're damaged and they bleed internally, you will see the person as you say going into shock, okay, and there may be eventually, not immediately, bruising and swelling and tenderness round the area, bruising is only internal bleeding showing itself, yes, so what can you do with that person? [speaker002:] Hospital [Elaine:] Before they get to hospital yes all the treatment for shock, nil by mouth, all the treatment for shock and urgent need of aid, how else might you suspect that there was internal damage and possible bleeding going on? [speaker002:] High blood pressure [Elaine:] Well I'm thinking more of [speaker002:] The patient might tell you [Elaine:] The patient might tell you what if, if the casualty was still able to talk, they might be able to give you the history of how they became like they were, received a blow, got kicked, fell onto something hard, okay and so on and so on, they might be able to tell you themselves, give some indication, right, you would remove and loosen off all tight clothing, okay, loosen off the clothing for them and then treat them for shock and then refer them to urgent medical attention, nil by mouth on any account, okay? Any questions? [speaker002:] Just one point, you said er passing water through the ur er blood through the urine is two things er [Elaine:] It could be the bladder [speaker002:] it could be the bladder or what? [Elaine:] It could be the kidneys... okay... are there any questions there, is there anything that you want to ask?... No... don't forget again all the things that you recognize from somebody who was suffering from shock... right... don't forget how we treat them... okay... and we'll run a film for you now erm, no perhaps we won't we'll deal with the severe bleeding on the palm of the hand and get that out of the way [Audrey:] Yes, okay [Elaine:] we'll show you now how to put on a pressure bandage for severe bleeding and then we'll put the film on and you can see the whole lot again, okay, so just be in the room if you just push and push and push on the window and er the hand has gone through the window, right, and there's no glass imbedded but it's cut right across the palm and the reason that we show you this one is because the artery that feeds all these fingers comes and the thumb comes up in an arch like that... okay, so the artery comes down, up in an arch across the palm of the hand, so the fingers and thumb all get a blood supply, so when you cut the palm of your hand there is a lot of blood pumping out, okay, so what's the first thing I'd tell her to do? [speaker002:] Elevate [Elaine:] Yeah, what else could she do? [speaker002:] Put her hand on top Pressure on [Elaine:] Have I touched her blood at all? [speaker002:] No [Elaine:] And I have not, and I wouldn't want to unless she was in such a condition, can you manage to sit there like that for a moment while I'll manage to go and get a pad? You okay at the moment? So then I'll need to go and get my pads and my bandages so that I can put this right, you'll need two of these for this bandage, the first one, you open out so that the pad is going to go into the palm of her hand and that over the top and she is going to grab hold of the other one like that, okay, now we've got the wad in there and she's hanging on to it, but it was the sterile part of the bandage as I undid it that went on to the wound, there is no time for dressing here is there? No, okay so now we're going to actually put this bandage, sorry have I got that round the right way? [Audrey:] No think it goes round the bottom [Denise:] No, haven't, sorry [Elaine:] thank you, now we're going to bind this up, you take the long edge, sorry that goes down the long edge comes first of all over the two fingers and round the base of the thumb [speaker002:] Excuse me, we can't see [Elaine:] Can I, can we ask you to, can I move you forward, forward, that way or would you like to stand up, stand up and come round [Audrey:] Perhaps if you would like to go round the [Elaine:] come round yeah [Audrey:] Stand at the back or something [Elaine:] yeah, come round and have a look if you want to, come and stand up here close if you want to okay, round the base of your thumb, basically what we want to do is we want to clamp these fingers in so they can't come un unstuck, we want to push them together because she can't keep them shut like that, but the next thing is that you come round to the back where the little finger is, the next time you come round here, you're gonna come round to about the first thumb joint... okay and then you're gonna go over the top... okay and if you come round again the little thumb, by, by the little finger, you come round again to the thumb joint okay, come over the top again, round, we're just making really like the figure of eight, but all the time we're keeping off of this wrist here and I'm keeping her fingers in, are you alright still? [Denise:] Yes [Elaine:] Yes, okay and we're still coming round yet again and the last one cos she's got quite a large fist, I'll take it over the top, round the back and this one now I can tie, tie it off, sorry tie it off on the back of her hand now, I don't want to tie it off on the front cos in a minute I want to put this into a sling... not too tight? How are your fingers? [Denise:] Alright [Elaine:] I've left one thing showing, this if you, you'd got, you tuck it in at the top there if you've got some room, right, I've left her thumb out, so that if this is too tight I can check the circulation, if the pink comes back it's okay, can you get your fingers out? No they're all tucked well in, now she needs it still to be up here, right, so what's the best thing that we can do to make sure it stays up in the high position? [speaker002:] High sling [Elaine:] A high sling, now we can put on a high sling for her, okay, that goes up there and now, are you still alright? Still okay? We're just gonna put a sling on for you, and if the blood comes pumping through that what will I do? [speaker002:] Put another one on [Elaine:] A bigger pad over the top, there's the sling and towards your casualty and place it on the body... down the straight and the elbow and the point at the same side, tuck this hand under and tuck all this underneath the arm and bring the rest of it round the back, tie it up as close to the fingers as you can and try to remember how to do a reef knot, at least always make sure it's firm, is that alright for you? Comfortable and firm?... Once you've done the knot put the ends out of the way, straight away and then last of all just finish off this corner here, if you've got too much material okay, tuck it out of the way, you don't want it dangling there out the way and how does this one go?

[speaker001:] or the Open University [Chris:] Yeah but the Open University ones... cover all of the material and they're what I actually wrote the lectures from... erm but there's six of them which is why the o the only advantage of the other one is that it's one not six and so... but I mean the material is all covered text of which there are three copies of most of them in the library one on short loan and one on sort of a general loan so you [speaker001:] Yeah. What's the other one like? The [Chris:] Tha that's quite good for, for the biological stuff, it doesn't really contain much... sort of useful for the last three or four lectures, it doesn't contain much on sort of ocean circulation and... the physics, you know but it covers the biology interactions quite well. And also it's quite useful for the... Right then we, we'll leave some of the physics and stuff that we've been doing behind now and just spend one lecture looking at some chemistry which I know will be equally popular. [speaker001:] Oh good. [Chris:] Most of the ninety two naturally occurring elements, that's leaving aside the, the elements that have been created artificially in particle accelerators and things, have been found in sea water and it's quite likely that those that haven't yet been recorded from sea water will be recorded as our analeti er as our analytical techniques get better. So basically you can consider sea water as being a solution containing salts of all of the naturally occurring elements.... Can you just copy that down. Would I, would I do that to you? [speaker001:] Mhm... [Chris:] You will probably be relieved to hear that you're not expected to memorize that table and to regurgitate it in the exam.... What you should be aware of though is which elements are the most common in sea water... and you'll not be too surprised to learn that sodium and chlorine, as in sodium chloride, as in common salt... are in fact the two most elements in sea water... followed by magnesium, sulphur and calcium.... Now there is inherently a problem in carrying out any chemical analysis of sea water and that is the fact that sea water contains lots of lumpy bits.... These particles, this particular matter is generally given the sort of generic term seston... some of those particles are mineral particles... some of them are colloidal aggregates... as the iron tends, iron, iron, ions tend to come together to form colloids... in solution... and some of them are particles of biological origin. So there are a whole range of different origins to these particles but they're all floating around in the sea water. So if you come to try and analyze sea water you first of all have to separate the er aqueous base and those things in solution from this particular material.... For no real reason other than tradition... samples are normally passed through a forty five mu sieve... or membrane filter. [speaker001:] Is that seston or sestron [Chris:] Seston T O N... So sea water analysis then is carried out on the water which passes through the forty five mu filter.... Typically in the open ocean situation... sea water contains thirty fives parts per thousand of salt, usually expressed as that symbol, sometimes you'll see it written as parts per thousand P P T... and what that means is that there are thirty five grams of salt per... kilogram of water... and that's usually given the symbol S and is referred to as the salinity.... We can divide the components of sea water into three erm categories... firstly those things which we can consider to be major constituents... these are substances which are present... are concentrations greater than one part per million.... So if you look down your table you've got your concentrations here in parts per million and you can see that everything above fluorine would be a major constituent and everything below it would be a minor constituent. Major constituents account for ninety nine point nine percent of the material dissolved.... Minor or the trace constituents then are present in concentrations less than one part per million... they obviously count for less than point one percent of the total salts... They are useful as chemical tracers of particular waters. If we know a water has a particular site of, of origin then we can often use minor trace constituents as a marker of that water to follow its fate and its path through the ocean, okay? So minor constituents are often useful as chemical tracers.... Our third category then is substances which are, are nutrients, and this is nutrients in the widest sense. These cut across the major and minor boundaries in that some of them are in concentrations greater and some lesser... one part per million.... These are substances which have biological significance.... The principal ones are nitrogen, which is present as nitrate, nitrite... and various oxides of nitrogen... phosphorous which is present as phosphate... silica present as silicate... which requires silica? [speaker001:] ... [Chris:] And carbon present as carbonate which is used in skeletal material... or as carbonate or C O two or H C O three minus... which are all used as substrates for photosynthesis.... Because these are biologically active compounds, they don't follow the simple... chemical processes of the other elements in the water, their concentration at any given time or place is a function of the biological activity and history of the water. So for example in a region of high productivity you may find very low concentrations of carbonate because it's been stripped out and converted to skeletal material being used in photosynthesis.... Substances whose concentrations are not affected by biological activity you'll often see described as bio-unlimited... compounds... so you might come across that in your reading. Right? So that's substances whose abundance is not influenced by biological activity, okay? So that's the opposite if you like of those nutrients.... In addition to salts, ocean water contains dissolved gases.... All of the gases present in the atmosphere are also present in surface waters.... That occurs simply by physical processes, primarily gas being trapped as bubbles under the action of breaking waves.... Carbon dioxide is the most soluble... of the gases... because as it dissolves it doesn't just go through a physical solution it goes through a chemical conversion... such that carbon dioxide dissolving in water forms... carbonic acid... which, in water... will dissociate into a hydrogen iron and a hydrogen bicarbonate iron... which can further dissociate... this is why I've got a nice wide blackboard and you've only got a piece of A four paper... so you end up with a carbonate iron two hydrogen ions... This system is a dynamic equilibrium. If you put more C O two into the system the concentrations of all of these go up, if you take carbonate out, for example for conversion to skelet skeletal material, it will pull material in this direction through the, through the s through those equations. The actual point of the equilibrium, where the balance occurs on each of these, is a product of temperature and pressure.... Topically this system is extremely important. If you measure the atmospheric rise in carbon dioxide due to fossil fuel burning, you'll see that it's only about one half of that predicted if all of the coal and oil that had been burnt since the industrial revolution had gone into the atmosphere, we would probably have er an increase in C O two double what we can actually measure. The rest has entered this system and has been absorbed by the oceans. Okay?... So we know that so far about fifty percent of our anthropogenic C O two has been locked away in this system in the ocean. And at the moment there is considerable er research effort being directed to try and work out just how much more carbon dioxide the ocean will continue to absorb. [speaker001:] What does anthropogenic mean? [Chris:] From human sources.... For example can we continue burning fossil fuel and will half of it continue to be absorbed by the ocean or is the ocean reaching saturation... such that these equilibrium terms are being reached and future increases in C O two will be reflected in atmospheric build up, and it's only atmospheric C O two that contributes to the greenhouse effect. So the exact er nature of this balance and how waters between contact with the atmosphere are being mixed into the deep sea, cos remember this equilibrium can only be occurring in surface waters cos only they are in contact with the gas phase... how that turnover of deep water's occurring affects just how much capacity we've got for absorbing C O two in the oceans and therefore mitigating the greenhouse effect. [speaker001:] How can we work that out? [Chris:] What's that? [speaker001:] How can you work that out? [Chris:] Well that's what they're trying to do at the moment by measuring rates of turnover of deep to surface waters [speaker001:] Mhm [Chris:] which is actually poorly understood, we'll talk a bit more about that in the next lecture. Okay? But you can see if this lot gets converted to carbonate and then that water then gets mixed down to the deep water, it will be replaced at the surface with water which has a low carbonate concentration which will suck more C O two out of the atmosphere. So it's quite critical as to how that rate is turning [speaker001:] [cough]... [Chris:] It's then oxygen... surface waters are saturated, in fact they're often super-saturated with oxygen. In part this is the result of photosynthesis which is pumping oxygen into solution but again primarily it's down to the physical saturation due to breaking waves and air bubbles being mixed in to the system.... Below the photic zone oxygen is consumed by biological activity... so immediat from immediately below the photic zone you tend to see a decrease in oxygen with depth... reaching a minima somewhere between five hundred and a thousand metres depth [speaker001:] Re reaching a what? [Chris:] Reaching a minimum.... Below about a thousand metres oxygen concentrations are fairly static... down to the a minimum between five hundred and a thousand metres depth... so they're fairly static.... That's in the open ocean... in enclosed basins, for example the Black Sea, many fjords and sea lochs, the deep waters are not renewed by water masses moving in from other areas in the way that they are in the open ocean... and there anoxia can occur in the deep waters, that is the oxygen can be completely removed by biological activity... particularly in degradation processes of organic matter, bacterial respiration... so anoxic conditions can occur in isolated deep basins... but low oxygen concentrations are actually very rare in the open ocean.... [speaker001:] Why is that? Why is it... erm well yeah... er le less of a level of oxygen at erm medium depth [Chris:] Yeah? [speaker001:] now surely it's far more difficult to get oxygen down deep? [Chris:] Yeah. It's because... that's the sort of trace you get with an oxygen minimum around eight hundred metres. The photic zone is, this is percent saturation of oxygen... fully saturated... and what we're seeing here is oxygen being utilized by respiration. In general biological activity decr decreases with, with increase in depth so you see er respiration using up this material. But when you start getting down here you've got low biological activity [speaker001:] Yeah but sh sh [Chris:] but you've also got water masses which are being moved in... which are rich in oxygen. The reason they're rich in oxygen is because they were formed at the polar regions, alright? Where, because the water is very cold, it will absorb an awful lot of oxygen. We'll look, we'll actually look at the processes of deep water formation tomorrow, so you'll actually see how the waters are formed, but the reason why this is high is basically the act of A, low biological activity removing it and B, the fact that the source waters have not come from below, they've come in horizontally from an area where they were formed which was very rich in oxygen.... Now if you start analyzing the composition of sea salt, or the salt in, in sea water, what you find is that there is a remarkable constancy in the ratio of one element to the other. No matter where you go in the world ocean you find that although the total salinity may vary, the actual ratio of say silicon... no that's, let's say potassium to aluminium is the same er so there is a constancy of composition... there is a constant ratio between the elements.... That constancy of composition relationship breaks down in enclosed seas and bays for example where er addition processes, I E er salts which have been eroded from river water, may alter the composition. So may, you may have a bay for example that's in an area where all the rivers draining into it are rich in copper because they're running over rocks which are copper. So in enclosed areas like that this breaks down but in the open ocean system you've got this very strong constant ratio. Other areas where it may break down are areas of high biological activity... for example tropical reef flats... very high biological activity there, very high demand for calcium carbonate to build all those coral skeletons, so carbonate will be stripped out.... And waters passing through the earth's crust at hydrothermal vents etcetera will also have undergone chemical changes so again pool waters being emitted will vary in their composition.... So how do we actually go about measuring this thing called salinity?... Well if the definition of salinity is the amount of salt dissolved in a particular volume of water, perhaps the logical way to do it is simply to take a volume of water and evaporate it and weigh the amount of salt that's left... so that might be the simplest approach. There are however problems with that approach... of how much do you dry the salts, for example. Depending the amount of drying concerned actually alters the composition of some salts. For example magnesium chloride holds water within its crystal lattice and if you dry it that water comes out, but as it comes out it also strips out... the chlorine as hydrogen chloride gas for example. So that would be one salt whose actual nature and therefore weight and therefore your measurement of salinity will vary depending on the degree of drying.... Carbonates will combust at relatively low temperatures so if you dry your water in an oven you may find you're actually burning off some of the carbonates.... So that would be another source of error.... Well... our constancy of composition gives us a way round some of these problems. If we can establish through very careful analysis what the ratio are between certain elements and each other then that ratio also holds between any given element and total salinity, yes?... [speaker001:] Yes. [Chris:] Yes. So by measuring just one substance we can work out the overall total salinity. The substance that's most frequently measured is actual the chl is actually the chlorine content... and the salinity is one point eight zero six five five times the chlorine concentration. [speaker001:] [cough]... [Chris:] Chlorine is relatively easy to measure... I'm sure you'll all of done it at A level chemistry... titration, silver nitrate? Yeah? To establish the concentration of chlorine in a solution. And that was the technique that was really used up until the sixties for the determination of salinity. Whole research cruises where water samples were being taken at many depths, every sample that came back was titrated on board ship to get the silver nitrate to establish the chlorinity and hence the salinity. These days we can do it much easier and we do it electrically, so we can use a relationship between conductivity... which has to be er compensated for temperature and pressure at which you're doing your readings, and that gives us a measure of our chlorinity and then that gives us a measure back to our salinity.... And modern salinometers will automatically compensate for the temperature and pressure and do this conversion so you can get a direct read out from an electrical instrument of the salinity.... But one must still be wary... the fact that although we've got this nice electric gadget, that we drop the probe into a bucket of water and it gives us er a salinity... it is still entirely dependent on this ratio... and this ratio is based on the constancy of composition which is very good for open ocean waters but breaks down in coastal waters where erosional processes, where fresh water additions and the sediment loads of the rivers... may actually alter this ratio, okay? So although we've got a device we must use it with care when working in coastal waters.... Another way... of measuring salinity is optically.... This is an this is er another... this is a good one for use in the field, it can be quite accurate... it's, it's certainly a very easy one to use in the field cos all you need is a thing that looks a bit like a telescope about four inches long... and what tha the principle it's working on here is the fact that ref the refracted index... of water changes as you dissolve salts in it. So what it really is is a fr refractometer... okay? It's measuring a refractive index of the solution but, and giving you a read out in terms of salinity, okay. So a useful field technique.... [speaker001:] Do you have to sieve it first? [Chris:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Presumably you sieve it first? [Chris:] Well again all of these things should be done on water that's been passed through a filter to separate the water from the sestron yeah.... However again, in the field that's frequently not... and you do literally drop your probe in a bucket.... [speaker001:] As the actress said to the bishop. [Chris:] Exactly, I was just thinking the same thing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [Chris:] Well that's the sort of composition... which immediately begs the question where do these salts come from... and where do they go to? So sources and sinks of salts.... What do you think the most obvious source is? Yeah. Weathering of rocks... by rain water, by frost, by chemical action... which is then leaked into rivers and carried from rivers into [speaker001:] [cough]... [Chris:] However some salts are very abundant in river water but are very rare in crustal rocks. In particular chlorine... the most dominant element in sea water... it's quite common in river water but is extremely rare in the rocks that form the earth's crust. So the simple weathering model will not explain our distribution of chlorine.... Chlorine is an example of an element that is being recycled continually. The chlorine we detect in the rivers has actually come from the ocean. The chlorine is picked up as aerosols... droplets containing salt for example from breaking waves... taken up by the atmosphere, carried over the land, rained down again, gets into the rivers and ends up back in the sea. So chlorine is continually going through this cycle. Ocean to aerosol... into the atmosphere, carried over, deposited as rain, leaks back through the river system into the sea.... Looking in ballpark figures, river water is about three hundred times more dilute than sea water.... [speaker001:] How do you in the first place? [Chris:] I'll come to that in a second. [speaker001:] Ah right.... [Chris:] Sea water though contains proportionately less... hydrogen carbonate... silicate... and calcium than river water. So river water... is greater than sea water, proportionately, for those elements. Okay?... Which implies that these must be precipitated in some way out of the marine environment. They're obviously being continually carried in from the river water but are being taken out of the system somewhere in the marine environment. Looking at that list would anybody like to suggest what sort of processes those substances are all involved in? [speaker001:] Biolo biological. skeletal. [Chris:] Yeah, biological. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] Diatoms... calcium hydrogen carbonate... skeletal material... these things are probably ending up predominantly as deep sea sediments... pelagic sediments, yeah, remember? Diatomic oozes... regularian oozes and so on?... So that's a sink for some material. Let's come back to our chlorine then and think about... well if it's not being weathered out of the rocks, what's its ultimate source?... And the simple answer is it would appear that it's volcanic in origin. Volcanoes emit very large concentr very large amounts of hydrochloric acid as a gas... H C L gas... and earlier in the earth's history volcanic activity was much, much more widespread than it is now and during this period vast amounts of H C L were emitted. This is highly soluble, so it is immediately washed from the atmosphere by rain into solution. And since then this chlorine has been continually recycled through the hydrosphere.... Sorry... One of the other tables you've got... shows you a comparison between the elements which are present in crustal rock and in the sea and from that you can see which ones are a good reflection, I E whi which elements have been transferred to the sea by direct weathering, and which of them are undergoing other processes, either other sources or other sinks.... So for example you can see chlorine... the percentage of chlorine in solution expressed as a, a per centimetre solution is something like twenty four thousand but its percentage in crustal rock is nought point nought one three so there's this big excess of chlorine to explain.... Now arguments such as that in terms of composition of the sea relative to the composition of crustal rock [speaker001:] [cough] [Chris:] imply a steady state system... or over a long term and if over the long term... the rate of addition of material to the sea is equalled by the rate of removal.... If there's a continual turnover of material we can actually calculate its residence time, that is the average length of time a particular molecule of substance X spends in the ocean.... And that would be calculated as the total amount dissolved in the ocean divided by its rate... either of addition... or removal... so if we're assuming steady state the two will be the same, whichever is easiest to ma measure... and that would normally be expressed in years... [speaker001:] [cough] Sorry, what does R T stand for again? [Chris:] Residence time.... [speaker001:] So w w what rate of addition or removal addition or removal? [Chris:] Yeah, right. Ei either the rate of addition or the rate of removal cos if we're assuming a steady state the two will be the same and it's just a question of for some substances it might be easier to measure th the rate of addition, for others it might be easier to measure the rate of removal. You should get the same answer if you did them both. [speaker001:] Mhm.... [Chris:] There are some residences, residence times, we'll note that the units are actually millions of years.... Chlorine has a residence time of infinity, that's because it's being recycled round all the time so it's in the system forever,. Very low residence time for hydrogen carbonate... biologically active, and an intermediate time for things like sodium and potassium which are common in crustal rock and are also commonly being deposited through sedimentation and so on.... In general there's a good correlation between a substance's residence time and its concentration. The more important it is in sea water, the longer its residence time.... The principal removal mech mechanisms for salts are inorganic precipitation... a chemical reaction between the dissolved substance and a particle, such that it then becomes part of the particle... and obviously for biologically mediated substances biological processes such as skeleton formation... or conversion to biological tissue.... just want to look at the carbonate system in a bit more detail.... Calcium carbonate... is... teetering on the brink of solubility in sea water.... The surface oceans are actually super-saturated with calcium carbonate... so there's a lot in solution, there's more in solution than in theory is possible, in super-saturated condition and in addition there's a lot floating around in the solid form in biological material.... Spontaneous precipitation from surface waters is actually fairly rare because most of the carbonate a ions are weakly bound up with magnesium ions... in surface waters. So it's the presence of magnesium ions in surface sea waters that helps keep the calcium carbonate from precipitating. [speaker001:] Sorry, what's bound up with...? [Chris:] The carbonate is bound up with magnesium ions, weakly. Very weakly... but it is sufficient to pr prevent them pairing with calcium ions to form... precipitate.... [speaker001:] What's that? [Chris:] Er two plus and two minus.... Now as th this weak bou bonding's overcome by biological processes to actually produce solid calcium carbonate in skeletons, now as that skeletal material sinks down through the water column, it moves out of the region of super-saturation... and begins to dissolve. The region where it begins to dissolve... is known as the lysochine... okay? So that's the region where calcium carbonate is no longer super-saturated and so that skeletal material, as it floated down through the water column, would begin to dissolve.... If you go deeper through the water column you'll come to a depth where all of the calcium carbonate has dissolved... and that's known as the carbonate compensation depth, or C C D... the carbonate compensation depth.... These are, are not single depths, they're, they're more regions... and the actual depth where the two regions occur varies around the ocean. The depth of the lysochine is basically controlled by water chemistry.. the P H and the concentration of carbonate in the water.... The C C D is controlled both by the water chemistry, the P H and carbonate concentration, and by the rate of supply. So below an area with a very high biological activity, where there's a very large amount of calcium carbonate raining down, the C C D will be deeper because it will take that much longer for this material that's rained down to actually dissolve. Yeah?... So, okay? So the C C D will be deeper under biologi biologically productive regions.... [speaker001:] ? [Chris:] Yeah. So the C C D will be deeper under regions with high biological productivity.... And if you remember your distributions of deep sea sediments you will recall that calcium carbonate based deposits are rare in deep waters... because it's all dissolved... but are more common under regions where there is a high productivity because the C C D will have been depressed. So you can get calcium carbonate deposits for example, on the top of isolated sea mounts or mid-ocean ridges.... The carbonate system is also important in the control of sea water P H.... Typically sea water is alkaline around about eight plus or minus nought point two P H units... and P H is defined as the negative log... of the concentration of hydrogen ions.... Variations in PH away from this are typically controlled by the equilibrium we've already seen... between the hydrogen bicarbonate ion and carbonate and H plus. So this equilibrium... is the principal mechanism for maintaining sea water P H. If it shifts that way you get a greater liberation of, of ion, of H plus ions which moves the P H down, making it more acid.... How much chemistry can you remember? Equilibrium constants? If K is the equilibrium constant for that reaction... then we can actually redefine our terms such that the concentration of hydrogen ions will be K multiplied by the concentration of... hydrogen bicarbonate ions over the concentration of... bicarbonate ions.... In practice it's very difficult to measure the P H of sea water. Because there are so many substances in there an and the relative concentrations of many of these ion species are dependent on equilibrium reactions such as this, it makes it very difficult to measure using the traditional approaches. One way round that is to actually measure... the alkalinity of the water.... Alkalinity is not a measure of how alkaline a solution is, it is therefore a stupid name [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] but it's the one the chemists give it. Alkalinity is defined as the amount of hydrogen ions required to neutralize... the negative charge... on the anions, I'll go through it again Roly [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] in the solution. Okay? So that is the amount of hydrogen ions required to neutralize the char the negative charge on the anions. And therefore it can be found very easily, very directly, simply by titration.... And having measured the alkalinity... you can simply convert back... to work out the concentrations of the carbonate and bicarbonate ions and from that you can calculate the P H using that relationship. Okay? So in practice it's easier to measure the alkalinity and then back-calculate to get that and hence the P H... than to actually try and measure the P H directly from sea water.... Are you sure you wouldn't physics?... Right just to finish off I just wanna look at actual vertical distributions of... elements in the ocean.... We can actually characterize... three types of distribution.... Firstly those substances which increase relatively rapidly with depth and then become constant... and this group are usually referred to as the bio-limiting... element or a bi having a bio-limiting distribution.... Substances which are required... nutrients, micro-nutrients, copper and zinc are required as micro-nutrients by plant cells for example, would show distributions like this... de decreased levels in surface waters where er in the photic zone biological activity is high they'll be continually stripped out of the water column... there in the concentrations then increase as biological activity decreases and then becomes constant with depth.... We then have a group of substances which are bio-unlimiting... this is concentration and that's depth... barium, bromine, chlorine... iron... magnesium, potassium,, sodium, sulphate... will all be examples of bio-unlimiting substances.... And of course because this is biological oceanography it's not as simple as that there is a third category which is bio-intermediate.... These show some decrease in surface waters but not as severe as the bio- limiting substances... calcium, barium... carbon... would be examples of bio-intermediate substances.... [speaker001:] Why doesn't it tail off at the bottom then if it equals out at depth?... I thought you said with the bio- limiting it, it evened out at depth as a concentration [Chris:] Well it is, this is the concentration across here, this is depth. So that's a constant concentration.... Yeah?... Everybody happy? Follow all of that?... Good.... Do deep sea circulation tomorrow. [speaker001:] Radium... radium That's a washing powder. [Chris:] That's right, no that's Radion [speaker001:] Ra radium microbes sea water. Keeps all the fishes clean. [LAUGHTER] Keeps them sparkling white [LAUGHTER] [Chris:] You've, you've got... you've got a video which is scheduled for one thirty because you've got something else at two o'clock, but you can have it now if you prefer to have it now rather than one thirty

[speaker001:] Doctor 's obviously a more frugal character than me because he had this room and the radiator was turned off. I have turned it on and it is doing its little best... but our guests from the south are obviously [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... I'll, I'll [speaker001:] sequins, it sounds like [LAUGHTER] Come Dancing []. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh I don't know I'm sure say anything rude. [speaker002:] No... honest. [speaker001:] Do they? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] some voices aren't allowed to er appear.... Are you still in here? [speaker002:] It it's okay carry on it's alright I'm, I [speaker001:] Right. Okay I'm sorry I haven't had level three supervision groups before so this is a whole new experience for me [speaker002:] Well we're very high powered you know [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Chris has given me my instructions so [speaker002:] Oh no [speaker001:] I'm supposed to first say is th are you finding the course okay and to ask you about your projects. So course okay so far? [speaker002:] supervisor. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] So Mike have you got your project sorted out? [speaker003:] Well it's more or less in hand, yeah. [speaker001:] What what you're doing? [speaker003:] Yeah [speaker001:] With Stewart? [speaker003:] yeah. [speaker001:] So is it just a continuation of what you've done anyway? [speaker003:] Well more or less but he weren't amused at any of the results so [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Oh I see right. [speaker003:] I've [LAUGHTER] got to start again []. [speaker001:] That's rotten. So are y are you just do [speaker002:] No it's quite fair actually. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] are you just doing are you just doing one er sorry j er are you just doing one project... a t a two term project? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right so you're s you're sorted out. Charles what are you doing? [speaker004:] Er I'm doing something on wild salmon. [speaker001:] Oh right. Who, who are you er with? [speaker004:] Er with Gordon. [speaker001:] ? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Oh right, so what are you, tell us about it, what are you going to do? [speaker004:] Erm well... Alex and I are both doing it but Alex has got his own rivers [LAUGHTER] so he's doing it on his own sort of thing [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Alex [speaker004:] and er I'm [] I'm, think I'm doing mine more sort of related to er the eggs. [speaker001:] Right. So where [speaker004:] Well sort of looking in that, that s er on the Tyne. [speaker001:] Oh right. So I mean is this eggs that are put in by the, I mean I... [speaker004:] Er yeah I think it will have something to do with that, yeah. I've sort of er I've [speaker001:] So are you just doing a lit is it, is it a two term project as well? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] And you're just starting a research? [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker004:] I've started that, I've gotta, just gotta... I went and played on the computers yesterday. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You went what? [speaker004:] And played on the computers yesterday [speaker001:] Oh right, oh right. Have you all, by the way have you all tried this C D rom thing [speaker002:] Mm [speaker001:] in the library? [speaker004:] It's quite fun. [speaker001:] It's quite fun, have you tried that? [speaker004:] Yeah that's what I tried yesterday. [speaker002:] Has anyone got anything useful out of it yet? [speaker004:] No it's [speaker002:] Yeah I know but they're not exactly over run with them are they? in the library or down here we have to do [speaker001:] Have you got to be more specific with your requests? I haven't tried it. [speaker004:] Well probably but it do it s I mean it, you either put in... I, I mean I... most, most [speaker002:] You're doing [speaker004:] most of the things that I've done have been on Atlantic salmon and you put in Atlantic salmon and you get seven thousand eight hundred [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] and forty abstracts out [speaker001:] Right [speaker004:] forget that. And you narrow it down and you get zero. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh right, right. Right, so you've got to play about with the system a bit more? [speaker004:] I think so I think so. [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] ASFA I think it's more helpful I think than C D rom isn't it? [speaker004:] What's the difference between ASFA and C D rom? [speaker002:] It's spelt different. No but ASFA is just on the... scientific end

[speaker002:] Hello Chris We play games on it though. No Has anyone got a? [LAUGHTER] I don't think it's, I mean Good communication though. Mm. Try A two see if A two's on it. Yeah... absolutely nothing at all. what sort of resistance on that lot? Christina go to your lecture tomorrow Say again? ten o'clock drive down to North Shields with all speed. [LAUGHTER] What's this []? All speed Then you don't need to miss your lecture. Oh no, right. Shame, bad luck Chris. Can you drive over with either Christina or Edward? Yeah Where was that man that wanted [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Is he willing to pay for them? [speaker001:] [video comes on] [speaker002:] [shouting] Oh yeah whooo! Hurray []! Oh well done Lily. [LAUGHTER] Oh I just wanted to ask you how to work the machine but it's done now. Oh right. Good. Oceans and climate, it's not currents it's oceans and climate. Who?... We're missing out currents.... I might have to steal some more paper later on Mm! but I'll give it you back. Can I switch the lights on? Yeah.... [video on oceanography and the changing face of the sea] The highly productive waters off once supported one of the most bountiful fisheries in the world but in nineteen eighty three the which produced the fish failed and the fishery crashed.... Deprived of the which they the marine iguanas of the Galapagos starved to death. Arid equatorial islands were transformed by rainfall but their sea bird populations disappeared. had returned The climatic perturbations known as alminio seemed to occur every two to ten years. The nineteen eighty two to three event was one of the most severe on record and its affects were felt around the world. Large parts of Africa, India and Australia were ravished by drought... while the west coast of the Americas was lashed by storms and torrential rain. The nineteen eighty two to three event was also the most comprehensibly observed so far. The changing patterns of sea surface temperature were recorded by satellite mounted sensors and they showed a region of unusually warm water travelling across the Pacific. But why did this happen?... At the time a number of instrumented buoys were moored along the equator and were sending back information about the wind and sea conditions. In addition, large numbers of drifter buoys were launched into the ocean off Peru... and for several months they were tracked via the Argos satellite as they drifted with the surface currents. You can see the paths of the drifter buoys looking like comet tails... thin arrows centred on the equator show wind direction... while the thicker arrows show current direction. Watch the buoy drifting westwards just north of the equator, as it approaches one of the moorings it suddenly changes direction with the current. Normally we'd expect these buoys to move west in the south equatorial current under the influence of the south easterly trade winds but during alminio winds become weak and westerly and buoys putting off the coast of Peru seemed to wander about aimlessly. Other buoys previously moving westwards now changed direction. So it seems that the weakening of the trade winds allowed more surface water normally piled up in the western Pacific to flow back eastwards across the ocean. But it's not as simple as that. Sea surface temperature affects processes in the atmosphere... ocean and atmosphere form one system.... Our work proceeds by trying to model this ocean atmosphere system and initially we made these models to develop an understanding but it turned out that the models worked pretty well to make predictions.... Now in order to make a prediction of what say what's going to happen this year I would have to know the state of the system of the ocean and the atmosphere on January first... and in order to do that in an ideal world I would have a tremendous amount of data about the ocean and about the atmosphere and be able to put it into this model... but this data, by and large, doesn't exist. What we do have are some relatively scanty observations of the surface movements over the tropical Pacific based on volunteer observers on merchant ships. We need the winds everywhere and we rely on people in Florida state to take these very sparse observations and turn them into a map which covers the whole surface of the tropical Pacific. We then take those kind of and use it in an ocean to create the state of the ocean. Now we have the ocean and the atmosphere and we can go and we go forward and, in a good year, if we're lucky, the way the model evolves with the ocean driving the atmosphere and the atmosphere driving the ocean, mimics what happens in the real world and so we can make a prediction. Predictions have value of course because these are things which affect climate and affect people's lives, but also making a prediction is a way of trying to verify whether the understanding that we think we have about how the system works can actually be translated into equations which are put on a computer, and then when you let this go it in fact s does indeed do what the real world does.... With increasing success at modelling changes in the tropical oceans, oceanographers are now aiming to predict global changes in the world ocean circulation experiment, W O C E for short. In this experiment we would be making measurements of the entire world ocean looking at essentially a snapshot view of the behaviour of the ocean during a five year period. Crucial to these observations are satellites, satellites have the ability to make measurements at least of the surface layer of the ocean on a nearly daily basis. Also the observations in all parts of the global ocean from ships, from moorings, from drifters on the surface of the ocean and floats in the interior of the ocean. This data set, coupled with extensive satellite observations, will give us for the first time a... essentially a snapshot view of the behaviour of the ocean. Understanding how the global ocean works is important if we're to forecast climatic change. Pollution of our planet may already be warming the atmosphere and there's rising concern about what will happen at the poles. The polar regions of the ocean play a very crucial role in the global climate system. It's in these areas that the ocean heat is lost or vented to the atmosphere as this heat vent was... carried into the ocean in the lower latitudes. In polar regions, as the heat is lost to the atmosphere the surface water naturally gets denser and it sinks and it spreads at some level in the ocean into the rest of the world ocean. Even under the equator if you go deep enough you'll enter water masses that were formed in the polar regions. This has an effect of cooling the deep waters of the world ocean and it also has an important climatic effect in removing excess C O two from the atmosphere. The north Atlantic in particular is important in removing excess er carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Perhaps half of the carbon dioxide introduced to the atmosphere has been removed by the ocean, primarily occurring in the northern hemisphere in the production of north Atlantic deep water.... The southern hemisphere polar region may play a smaller role in carbon dioxide balance but it is primarily responsible for cooling the deep ocean. Until the advent of satellites in the nineteen seventies we knew very little about the sea ice cover around Antarctica other than the northern fringes. The satellites revealed a rather remarkable feature in the Antarctic sea ice in that there are persistent open water areas even in the middle of winter... when the area should be frozen over, the atmosphere is cold enough to freeze the ocean and yet, in these areas, the ice does not form. These are called poleniers There are two kinds of poleniers one occurs along the coastline of Antarctica and is essentially formed as the strong winds blowing off Antarctica just remove the ice exposing the ocean, and the ice forms in this now exposed ocean very rapidly and then it's removed by the wind. Within these coastal poleniers an enormous amount of sea ice could form and then is removed to the north dumping enormous amounts of salt into the shelf water making it very dense and setting up the stage for the deep sinking associated with Antarctic. The ocean er poleniers were also revealed by the satellite images and these were even more remarkable and perhaps more unexpected. In these areas the surface water is convected deep into the ocean and deep water then comes up to replace it. Now the, the elongated convection cells which carry the heat of the deep ocean into the surface layer and prevent the formation of ice. These are called sensible heat poleniers in that they're maintained by the sensible heat of the ocean. The most remarkable of the ocean or sensible heat occurred in the mid nineteen seventies, what's referred to as the Widdell polenier An area of about three hundred thousand square kilometres was ice free for each winter for three consecutive years. The amount of ocean heat that was lost to the atmosphere during the Widdell polenier events in the mid nineteen seventies was absolutely enormous. We have temperature measurements before the polenier event and we have temperature measurements of the ocean after. The ocean cooled by about one degree down to depths of three thousand metres, an enormous amount of heat was extracted from the ocean. However, although the polenier event is associated with cooling of the ocean, it may not have had a very large impact on the carbon dioxide balance. The speed of the overturning does not allow er an equilibrium to be reached between the ocean and the atmosphere C O two content, and this is probably true throughout the southern ocean. It appears that the main extraction of excess C O two of the atmosphere is accomplished in the northern hemisphere, associated with the north Atlantic deep water. And then the southern ocean's primary role in a global climate system is to very significantly cool the ocean. So how fast do the deep water masses carry heat and carbon dioxide through the oceans?... Fall out from nuclear explosions has provided useful for water masses especially as the radio active nucleons are effectively time coded. Another group of artificial substances which can be used to track water masses are the fluoro fluorocarbons, C F Cs or freons for short. Water collected from the deep ocean contains gases dissolved in it when it was last at the surface and the relative proportion of these gases depends on their solubilities and their concentrations in the atmosphere. Denise has used a ratio of two C F Cs, freon eleven and freon twelve, to work out where water several kilometres deep in the ocean was last at the surface. The concentrations of freon eleven and freon twelve dissolved in surface waters have both increased dramatically since nineteen fifty but not by the same amount... and so measuring their ratio in a sea water sample will tell us how old the water is. This equipment can measure freon concentrations down to just a few parts per trillion.... Bubbling inert gas through the sample removes the freons which are condensed in a cooled coil. When all the C F C gas has been collected the cooling flask around this coil is replaced with one containing boiling water. The volatile freons quickly evaporate and are analyzed by a gas chromatograph.... These twin peaks on the chromatograph are directly in proportion to the amount of freon eleven and freon twelve in the water sample. If we analyze lots of water samples taken at different depths at the same we can then plot a graph of concentration versus depth and get a profile that looks something like this. This profile is for samples that I just north of South Georgia in the south Atlantic in nineteen eighty six. The red line represents freon eleven and the green line freon twelve. There are high concentrations in the top fifteen inches, but when we get below the next layer, the concentrations become very much less and the ratio of the two concentrations doesn't change very much. As we go deeper, there is a slight variation at three thousand metres which we know corresponds to Antarctic intermediate water. As we go even deeper to five thousand metres the concentrations begin to right again and the ratio begins to change.... If we now look at the curve which shows the freon ratios in surface water and look for a ratio of two, and lining this up with the nought degree curve because we're working with Antarctic water which of course is very cold, we can see that a ratio of two corresponds to the year nineteen fifty nine. These samples were collected in nineteen eighty six so we can calculate that the water is seventeen years old. Now we know that Antarctic bottom water is formed here in the Webber Sea and the samples that I've been talking about were taken here in the South Georgia basin, so we can see that it has taken seventeen years for the water to travel from here to here.... It's not just water sinking into the deep ocean that carries information about conditions on the surface. The tiny alga cochilicus amenianarxia multiplies in the spring forming enormous milky blues.... On death their placed as aggregate and rain down onto the sea floor where they dissolve if the water is deep enough. But scientists at the university of Bristol have discovered that, even where sediments contain no skeletal remains, two rather special organic are being preserved... molecular fossils if you like. They're very similar except that one has an extra double bond.... How we stumbled on this was that when we grew some of these algae at Plymouth... with our colleagues there, we found that when we grew them at one temperature then these two molecules were present in a certain ratio but when we changed the water temperature then the er ratio changed. So we, we then wondered could this actually be a sort of thermometer for the water temperature? And we were absolutely amazed when, in going round the ocean floors, we found that indeed these molecules in the sediments showed a, a relationship to the surface temperatures above them at the present day. And what we've done now, and with colleagues from Germany, is to take cores off north west Africa, say about twenty metres down into the sediment, we sample them in the lab here and took the small amounts of sediment and examined them for these long chain compounds and we were extremely excited to see that as we went down this core, back through the last few hundred thousand years, we could see our signal on sea surface temperature oscillating about roughly in the same way that er has been found with other methods of getting at the past history of the climate. For example, where the last ice age was taking place in Europe, then you can see the signal of the lower temperatures in the oceans off north west Africa in the form of this sediment signal.... Well so much for the sea surface temperatures of the past, but we've been looking at our records of the compounds in the sediments even more carefully and what we've seen in there are molecular fingerprints which do not match those of the marine organisms. So where are they coming from? Well we've fortunately been able to track them down to the waxes which er occur on land so what we're seeing here is a, an input from the land carried on the dusts which are blown in the winds from the Sahara and other regions out into the Atlantic Ocean. So this indeed looks a very exciting new development for us. But anyway, the whole problem we face now is how to do more samples because we're only looking at intercourse in the cores of, say, a thousand or two thousand year spacing, we've got to get down to a few hundred year spacing to really see some of the changes in climate that we know have gone on. How are we gonna do this? Well the only way we can see is to turn to the, to the physicists and the computer experts and to remove the chemical steps from our analytical scheme and use the speed and precision of the newer types of maschotrometer We already use auto-samplers for gas chromatography but now we need to bypass chemical steps.... One device we are testing is an advanced maschotrometer system with three small maschotrometers coupled together in a series. This device should give us a single analysis in about five minutes rather than ninety as at present as we don't need to separate the mixtures, we can do the analysis directly.... Really detailed molecular records at a spacing of a hundred years or less will be necessary to predict the climate change in the future and we'll really need that information if we're going to live safely on this planet. Now geologists have a maxim that the present is the key to the past... but what we need to do is to use the past to predict the future.... In the tropical oceans reef building corals have been responding to climatic changes for hundreds of years. They act as living tape recorders of the past.... When we five and a half years of life of the coral from Isabella Island in the Galapagos... the remarkable thing about this coral record is that it represents nearly three hundred and eighty years of continuous coral growth. Now corals grow under the sea but we didn't collect this particular specimen there. This specimen came from a reef that was uplifted virtually overnight in nineteen fifty four during volcanic eruption. This photograph taken several years before the uplift shows the dark oceans to the left and the grey volcanic land to the right. The has a small beach. This photograph, taken several years after the uplift, shows the beach now one kilometre from the present day shore line. This uplift brought with it many large colonies of corals one of which, this massive colony of, we sampled and brought back to the lab. So what can we learn about the oceans from this coral slab? If we look at them carefully we see a faint band in it but we can't count the bands this way, we can see them much better with X- rays. We placed the coral slabs on film, illuminated with them with X-rays and when we develop the film you see band patterns like this. The alternating light and dark bands form as coral growth responds to seasonal changes in the water temperature and cloud cover. Each band here represents one year we can age the, the coral by counting its bands just as trees can be banded by counting.... We know very precisely the age at the top of the coral when it was uplifted and died and what we've done is counted these bands back through hundreds of years, back to the time when the coral first started growing... and that was in the year fifteen eighty three. Now in the bottom part of this coral, the bands are quite widely spaced and are very regular. Now corals are very sensitive to changes in water temperature and these regular bands tell us that the water temperatures didn't change very much. Now if we look forward through time we see regular bands like this occurring through the mid sixteen hundred to sixteen forty, on up into sixteen sixty... sixteen eighty... still broad regular bands, conditions very conducive to coral growth, and in the early seventeen hundreds... on up into the mid seventeen hundreds one can see a remarkable change in the character of the growth bands. If you look carefully at this level you'll see two dark bands and in between the growth. At this point the coral was extremely stressed, in fact large parts of this colony died at that time. This tells us water temperatures were changing and we believe this represents a major almenial event which occurred in the year seventeen forty seven. Well so far we've just been looking at the record of growth bands in this coral skeleton, but we can acquire a great deal of additional information by sampling the skeleton, and we sample the skeleton using a small drill and we can analyze the, the powders that we collect for the stabilized of oxygen. The oxygen isotonic ratios of the coral tell us the water temperature at the time the coral was growing. Now remember this coral is from the western side of Isabella Island and at this location water temperatures are primarily controlled by the of cold, deep water as the trade winds blow from east to west across the islands. If you look at the oxygen results and plot them against the year of coral growth we see cooler water temperatures and hence stronger trade winds during the little ice age prior to nineteen hundred. The coolest water temperatures occur near seventeen hundred and eighteen hundred A D which also correspond to periods of. The period between eighteen sixty and nineteen hundred is especially important. This was a time of very rapid warming at the end of a little ice age and if we can understand how the climate changed at this time, we're much better able to predict future climatic perturbations as the earth warms up due to the addition of greenhouse gases. A rise in sea surface temperature will lead to an increase in the frequency and severity of tropical hurricanes. Parts of the world now outside the hurricane belt may soon experience their destructive power. There will be more almenial events in the Pacific. Climatic perturbations in general will become more frequent and more severe. There will be more floods and more droughts.... All these inter-related events result from the powerful coupling between ocean and atmosphere which controls our climate. [video ends]...

[speaker001:] You are here, still going out? [speaker002:] No [speaker001:] You're not now, oh right okay that's fine, the er, what I want you to do instead of writing, I mean two hundred words is, is probably feel nothing, but in fact because we want er it to be absolutely right, what I'd like you to do this time is just write an appraisal, the contents thing er that we had last time we had if you like, content and appraisal and audience, but audience was only er, a sentence or two, I'd simply like a, an appraisal, what your view of this is, if you're writing that part of the review, so we're only thinking in terms of a hundred words now, er what I'd like you to do is to distribute yourselves over the laboratory, erm go wherever you want but don't start talking with people, it's not the, not the Cribben thing I just want to get on with the exercise that I'm concerned with and write your appraisal, but obviously put your name on it and er... if we meet back here... thirty five minutes is that long enough for under a hundred words of excellent quality?... Between er, er the best, the best end of the scale ones which I would of thought if they'd been submitted to something like a general were almost erm okay... just like that, I mean there were one or two very good ones, I think there was one that was just about like that with the odd word and when an editor receives something like you, you know, it's usually going to be something he wants to change very slightly, erm that, those were the best ones, there were in general however you haven't yet got used to the idea of editing. I, when I took them back and looked at them, there were lots and lots of, of re er, errors if you like that if you had really looked at them you could of picked out yourself. I mean if you're honest a lot of these were really first or second draft erm manuscripts I think and er... er you really got to get, if you're going to submit something like this it has to be er... it has to be absolutely watertight and you have to say exactly what it is that you want to say, erm some of the criticism I've, I'm not gonna mention people's names, but I'm just remind myself er, a whole lot of you for some reason erm,con construct things in sort of note form I suppose this being undergraduates that helps this and, and, but you construct things with single sentence paragraphs so that actually you get a whole list of sentences without any linking between them and that is terribly disjointed reading and with an account like that, when you've finished reading it, you sort of have to shake your head and think well what did the person actually say, and when it's actually looking for er a little bit of prose, the in addition some of your con your sentences are in, extraordinarily complex, you start off in a sentence and you actually lose your way in the middle of it, I mean the simple sentence's much the better thing, I mean I seem to remember being told by subject, object verb, in a sentence, they must have those, those, those things, well very often you'll have a sentence which starts with er a particular noun and as, as a subject and then finishes up with the same no noun or, or, or subject or, or maybe it's become the object of the sentence at the very end or maybe the sentence has totally lost it's way. And these are the kind of things really that you should be able to pick out because they just, if you like, they just sound wrong forgetting about how poor our knowledge of grammar may become over, over the years. Er use of slang erm often comes into these, er these things, the, the sort of well footage er referring to the video isn't such a bad one because it's, it's in quite common use, but an awful lot of slang words, erm that people introduce er maybe I'll come across some in a moment. Erm, thank goodness for er modern technology I got them... please don't, don't all fax them up to the department, er these faxes are very hard to read [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Some of the sentences there are extremely long, some of you use capital letters indiscriminately, every sort of fourth word, they're in capitals, I don't understand why that should be. One or two of the excellent ones was spent, was spoiled by a little bit of er need to erm edit very carefully... introdu introduction of concepts you must be careful not to, if you've got a couple of hundred words only, but don't introduce er concepts diversity of design must of been er a phrase picked up from the video itself because it appeared in two or three of them, but it's no use talking about diversity and divine is it,de design as if, as if it's a concept which everybody else is going to understand. The teacher that reads your review that wants to know shall I buy that review,hi hire that video rather or, or what, am I going to use it for my class, they are going to er want that information and they don't want er concepts introduced which they don't understand what is meant by it, so be careful in that... er... erm, we have species of bird, the brambling, which I, I think is a pub in [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Rare bird [speaker001:] this is very swift, some of us when er [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] I put on, on large number of them more editing is needed I, I think probably now going back, oh change of tenses obviously something you have to watch out for. Anyway since editing is the main problem, what we're going to do this afternoon is, actually, I'm going to show you another video and again it's a very controversial one, again it's used in, in teaching situations, again it has a biased point of view in the sense that it's produced by National Power, er clearly as a P R job for introduction into schools erm and I want you to do the same exercise, but this time I want us to edit them among ourselves and... what I'm going to do is to get you to wri write your reviews and then we'll divide into small groups, while you're watching it I'll co I'll count how, however many people we've got here, we'll copy the reviews and in the same groups I want you to edit one another 's reviews and then er discuss them within the groups once you've, once you've marked them so we'll get into the small, we'll do the review... we'll write the review and then we will er, I distribute the, you can go and have a cup of coffee while we copy them, then we'll distribute them, you can mark them, er individually on your own and then we'll get into a group and you can criticize one another 's reviews, we'll take them one at a time, we'll probably be in groups of four, okay, but I'll see, I'll see how many, what the most suitable number is, okay so, if you, would you be kind enough to... that It's the brambling [speaker002:] The brambling [speaker001:] rambling is the word ramble Well if you'd put the sound quality was poor, I thought it better than rambling when it was, when it should of said brambling. [speaker002:] Rambling isn't that what old fogeys did in the weekend? Yeah [LAUGHTER] It didn't work very well did it Stuart? [speaker001:] What's that? [speaker002:] That, didn't come out. [speaker001:] The faxing? [speaker002:] Er? [speaker001:] The faxing? [speaker002:] No, it didn't work that well [speaker001:] No, and er, I mean I can do, I could read it so er... but I did [speaker002:] It's a bit poor. [speaker001:] It's a bit blurred, yeah... Sorry you were given [speaker002:] What, what are you carry on doing today? I mean do you want us to hand another one in? [speaker001:] No, well you founded the, the projects, but apart from anything which are [speaker002:] Right, right, right. [speaker001:] Yeah, I realized that er, my handwriting may not be desirable, but er, pardon [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [speaker001:] Okay, are, are you ready then with whatever notes you want to take? [speaker002:] What's, what's the video called? [speaker001:] Okay the video's called Electric Ecology... it was actually produced by er the Cen er Central Electricity Generating Board which doesn't actually now exist... it's become the National Power and Nuclear Electric hasn't it? Erm and what it says on the blurb on the cover is that the power stations of England and Wales are surrounded by larg large areas of land which are often remote, uncultivated and undisturbed by man. Electric Ecology looks at the surprising variety of plants and animals that have co colonized this land and that the efforts that are made to monitor and foster this wild life. The running time is twenty six minutes, we might as well get that right, we had er, er several people commenting on the running time of the other video, but er people had different of estimates, anything from fifteen to twenty five minutes. Sorry you [speaker002:] No I was about to ask how long it was. [speaker001:] Yeah, er right... [speaker002:] [video titled electrical ecology] Power stations produce electricity for our homes and industry, they're surrounded by thousands of acres of wild land... [music] This wild land has developed into some of the nation's most remarkable nature reserves... [music] For seven days a week, twenty four hour a day routine at the power station can provide unique and also surprising cover for all kinds of wild life. Power station fitter Bill They're, they're built in remote places so you've got all the, the er wild life around them and then you've got er farmland which uses pesticide and stuff like, which kills off the insect life and to birds all young and stuff like that. Erm, by having know that the land grows the weeds and no pesticides not disturbed, there's no shooting, they're never shot around here, the birds can come in sheltered, you know, they, they're just like a little nature reserve, protected area, game park you know, nothing shot at just left and er they like it obviously, I mean it's like anything once it learns that er it's gonna be left alone it comes again and again. It's, it's living in harmony I suppose will be the word you know the, the environment sort of moves in to the power station and doesn't get attacked, everywhere else gets attacked you know, people scrub up the weeds in the garden and things like that, here they're allowed to grow, the butterflies come in, insects, great you know just, just love it.... And Bill loves the wildlife, he's a dedicated bird- watcher although he hardly looks like it when servicing the huge polarizers that turn coal into a fine powder for burning. This powderized coal is the fuel for the power station. Like great coffee beans these machines must wind fifteen thousand tons of coal each day.... Seventy five per cent of Britain's electricity is generated by coal fired power stations [speaker001:] Not for much longer. [speaker002:] Ash is produced when the coal is burnt and has proved to be something for the salvation for many plants and animals... the ash is so fine that it has to be turned into a slurry and put into the to settle out... these can be up to eight years during which time it becomes none the less but an artificial mud flat quickly colonized by weeds, pioneers crucial to the complex way of life in our natural world... But for bird-watchers it is the bird that attracted to these artificial mud flats that are the most exciting development within the boundaries of these power station nature reserves.... It'll soon be better for the power station management Bill has built a hide to monitor the bird population The reason we built it on this particular spot is this is the ash flurry from the boilers from the bottom there of the er power station and er it's contents of slurry dried out, dried out and graded, well once nice and flat like this it gives the bird an ideal opportunity to at high tide and they can see around, there's no vegetation, it's very bad ground, and er, that is load of ducks, a good numbers of er oystercatchers, they don't sometimes, which is really nice and so easy to count them now cos when the tide is out and you've got the, the mud flats of course they're spread out, now they're nicely condensed down here, so it's great, great little position for us you know, that's all courtesy of the bottom of the boiler, you know, you know, give us this nice... Hardly the oystercatcher isn't all that fussy about its nesting site. This one has found a cosy hole in an insulation, covering a disused pipe to an oil fired power centre. Such oddities can often been spotted, because to the birds and animals a power station is simply a secluded often borne refuge from a hostile world... When, one, one of the changes I'm trying to do at night is, is to make the nature reserve more attractive to all species. If I, if I get another species next year nesting, that hasn't nested before and I know it's because of the effort of putting in reeds, trees, whatever I've put in there, we're, we're trying to get to nest here, if they nest that'll be really, er that'll be a great thing because er they feed on the apple erm I thought somebody said er who said there was a hundred a seventy five here er a week ago and that'd be great to get them to nest, be really good.... As the ash dries hard it is dug out for sale for the construction industry, yet another habitat is created... With the layers of rock compacted over millions of years, this soft ash forms perfect artificial gifts for burrowing animals like rabbits... For this young fox, what better place to practise digging than a soft cliff of ash, watched nervously by potential lunch... Another predator not necessarily fond of the ash, but very keen on the animals that it attracts, is the polecat ferret... Once used by poachers many of these agile hunters are now wild and range freely over the rough ground near power stations in search of prey... Round at the top of the ash are the nest borrows of one of Britain's rarest bird, the sand martin... the monitor of this power station has ensured special in there so the birds can find ideal nest sites. He's even arranged for holes to be drilled into the ash to give the sand martins a head start... These days secured nest sites for these beautiful birds are increasingly rare. This artificial ash cliff is perhaps one of their last strongholds... have also found refuge around our fire stations, protected from tramping feet and sheltered from chemical sprays these rare plants thrive in the damp salty margins alongside the ash lagoons... all this within the boundaries with just a few of the country's coal fired power stations... but the need for sea walls of other coastal stations merely intake pipes to the coaling system, another world teams... this is not a plant, fan worms have flowerlike mouth parts used to filter food from the sea water... other worms use just two sticky tentacles to catch food... shrimps forage over closely packed sea the delicate bodies of these printed vertebrates work as tiny water pumps, pulling water in one hole and pumping it through the other... here two barnacles feed in the gentle flow of water over the cooling pipes from the station... Marine life quickly packs the underwater structures and is about to become too thick and sometimes affect the performance of the machinery... barnacles belong to the same family as crabs and lobsters, but being in their adult life standing on their head which is fixed to the concrete... they use their feet to filter the water and kick food into their mouths... but if they can't move, how do they get there so quickly in the first place? The answer is that after mating they produce a tiny mobile larvae totally different to the adult... this might drift for miles on ocean current before settling into the fixed adult form... Down Norwick power station in North Wales, generates the electricity by pump storage, in off peak hours thousands of gallons of water are pumped from a lower lake to an upper lake, when the demand for electricity is high bowels are opened and water falls back through turbine to the lower lake again, this generates the power... To ensure that the lower lake would never flood the was diverted through mile long tunnel in the mountain side, no one knew for certain how the salmon, the trout and even rarer that used to migrate up the old river would cope with the tunnels, pitch darkness and slow flowing water. To find out a new research programme was started, fresh water biologist Doctor Alistair. A lot of people, some, some people well you should of and... and er many other people say that this wouldn't go through, particularly them the going through the tunnel. The research team have travelled two kilometres into the tunnel to net the fish close to the intake... checking the catch is an exciting moment... Oh there's a char, there's a lovely char here, these lovely chars er actually spend most of the time in big cold lakes and they're a, they're a population in they normally respond in December from about December the second to the fifteenth and they've probably been isolated since fourteen thousand years ago, with that every population has gone slightly different to, to the next one. Later the catches are surveyed in detail Well here, here are char for example, this is a female, you see the, the white line on the fins and the very pale pink spots, this will actually get gradually more highly coloured until about December when they will be quite bright red, and, and in my opinion not a question really, but might be that some of these other ones are pretty nice as well here's quite a, quite a dark little trout, probably been in the light for quite a long time, right now nevertheless... that's a female as well just a couple more famous small ones here, that's a young salmon, that's really a beauty. These little thumb print things along the, along the sides are called the marks and the down to the sea those marks disappear and you get this silvery appearance, so it's very plain if you've got these that the salmon has been up there just in the upper which is exactly we had, hope we had happened... Female shark and then thirty ... As part of Doctor 's research the char is painlessly tagged before being released back into the lake. When in the future later recaptured the tab will help scientists piece together the life history of these ice age relics... Doctor is to find out whether the migrating salmon are actually producing young in the upper reaches of the river Nantpose. To do this Doctor and his team use specially made apparatus that momentarily stuns the young fish... the research programme is continuing, but the results so far are revealing just how well the salmon co-exist with the high tech world of electricity production There's some that are going up at the moment to this pond, they develop them for the next three years to spend their life in the fresh water feeding, and what we're trying to do here is to see just how many there are in, in the river er as a total. Well what we do is we patch up all we can't a hundred yard stretch. We then mark them and release them again because we, the electro thing doesn't harm them in any way... This deluge of warm water produced by the cooling towers of the power station is as close as we'd come in Britain to a tropical monsoon. It's a vital part of the process of generating electricity. The water is nearly gone from a local river and of course is filtered before it passes through the tower, fish as fry or eggs inevitably get through, craving in the warm oxygen rich pond under the tower.... On the rare occasions when the cooling towers are for maintenance, the staff wait eagerly to see what the pond reveals.... Today the catch includes chub and fish associated with clear oxygen rich water now moving towards the maintenance. Eventually a time of fish will be landed... so the intricate work of life moves itself into the most unlikely corners of our power stations. But when the time comes to close, this delicate balance between gleaming efficient machinery and the secret world of nature can relent the man made, now nature takes over, unfettered by schedules or the relentless hurry into the night shift, it creeps into the bare workings of the place and then it's not the rest of the world within a world. Now echoes of the great turbines has faded and new a workforce starts to earn its living. soon find their way into the building and settle down to rear their young within the of pipes.... The droppings they create will need to contact flies which in turn will be to the spiders whose garden of webs will soon bale the windows.... The flat roof becomes like any piece of bad a potential home for pioneering weeds and grasses. More weed and a seed quickly becomes established in cracks on the asphalt... In future years even willow trees will be in a foothold... to these doomed power stations stands firm and proud as it slips and silently into decay That's them go in there. But the circular life is the start of natural history As the years turn towards migrating birds will give a clue to the success of the fledglings hatched earlier in the year. This nest set up on the flat lands beyond the power stations on the south east coast will provide the evidence to Bill and his bird watching colleagues...... It's not only the owls that fly at night, waders will feed at any time, but the rising tide will force them to leave the mud flats day or night Bird in the bag, a hundred and nine... take her out... right ring plummer, time? Time now, time is Ten, ten past two, what is it two at ten? Ring number Er, O five [LAUGHTER] Yeah, it's been there for quite a while. His job is so delicate that to ring birds like this Bill has had to train for two years under the watchful eye of a certified ringer. Well er a possibility innit? Oh yeah Quite possible... a wedding ring for the bird...... A hundred and thirty. This is quite a nice bird Yeah and er a nice white belly on it, on the wing, we'll put him back into the marsh shall we? With that we'll see if we've got any more [LAUGHTER]... it's er, have to go down here which has got a bit of light, still some birds moving around and the birds calling, go and check the nests now. We're gonna let this one go down the slide, until it runs off, there he goes [LAUGHTER], the light's gone... [music] It was only now that appreciate what nature has known all along. The plants, birds and animals, here in solitude and stable environmental conditions to fly. do not care whether the pipes, in our power stations help generate power to support human civilization. As far as they're concerned these places are a home, safe and free of danger. [video ends]... [music] [speaker001:] Okay, well now, what I would like you to do please er because we've only got a limited amount of time, er incidentally some of you still haven't divide collecting er a small group going with Peter I [speaker002:] We are still going.

[speaker001:] Words of wisdom. What we need to do now is... make them look interesting... and we do that... using the... what is called formatting options. And those are actually... listed on page eight. So essentially, what we're going to be doing are going through er the lessons that are actually outlined in page eight... and page nine of your booklet. Now one of the... features of Microsoft Word is that a only lets you work with text which is what is called selected... and if you actually move the cursor down a bit so that it's not at the beginning of a document... and then we'll follow our way through these various selecting text keys which are outlined in that paragraph, section three six one. So we u, if we use function key F seven we move through the document one word at a time... backwards... and F eight is the complimentary key to that... we move... through the document one fa word at a time. So, just try that. So as we go through we're acc... we er accepting one word at a time. Now F nine doesn't do what it says here actually, that's a... an error on my part. If you hit F nine... it selects the current sentence. I've actually lost the middle bit of my book! There it is! Right! So, F nine selects the current sentence that you're in. F ten... takes you through the document one sentence at a time... so you can work your way through the document one sentence at a time. So it's not actually a next paragraph, it's one sentence. [speaker002:] Unbelievable isn't it! [speaker001:] So you're okay so far? [speaker002:] Well mine doesn't seem to go through the. [speaker001:] Does it? [speaker002:] Yeah. For F nine. [speaker001:] Yes, true! It is one paragraph at a time, so it is correct. [speaker002:] I hope so. [speaker001:] I was having a job to recognise what was a pa... er, a paragraph as far as Microsoft Word is concerned is the space between two... hits of the return key, okay? Whereas a sentence... is is the space between er the beginning of er er between two full stops. A new way of using the English language when you're word processing is absolutely another world! Okay. Erm... if you go shift F nine, or shift F eight... it goes through the document, I think, one sentence at a time. Yep! And shift F seven takes you back through the document one sentence at a time.... Shift F nine selects the current line, we've not er stated I think.... Yeah, shift F nine... er... accepts the current line where the cursor is, is located. And probably the most useful key of all... when you're doing global formatting, is shift F ten and you select the whole document. So if you wanna select all the text you've written,she shift F ten selects the whole document. And essentially, you only will change the appearance of the text which is appearing in your vers video. So if you actually want to italicize something, you want to make it bold, you le you have to select it first and then you can carry out the... tha, the function. So, if everybody selects the text that they wan of their document and we'll just play around with it... show you what a mess you can actually create using these formatting keys! So everybody have document and hit shift F ten... and they're on page nine now... if we go, hold down the alt key and type B... and you'll just see er a shimmer go down the screen... an... then you don't actually see anything, but if you alt U, everything appears underlined... alt K... converts everything into small capitals... alt S, strikes through everything... and alt I... italicizes all the words. If you don't press your arrow... you'll see what a mess you've created in your document! You've made the text bold... capitalized, struck through, underlined, and totally illegible! So you've now actually taken all that nice typing that you've done and rendered it totally illegible! Fortunately, this is not permanent. So if you select all the text again, shift F ten, and press the alt space bar, then all of that formatting is removed... and it takes you back to your text as it was. So, from basically making it totally illegible you're back to where you started. So what we've been doing is we've been taking words and we've been changing their appearance. We've underlining them, italicizing them, whatever... this is what is called character formats... and these are eliminated or removed with the alt space bar. The next set of features that are actually mentioned erm... relate to... the way in which paragraphs are laid out. So, if we actually have everything highlighted again and we'll actually not follow the list as in the book we'll, if you type in alt C... all your text moves to the centre... go alt R... everything moves to the right... and alt L again it takes you back to left justified. So now we're altering the space... the words actually placed on the page. Go alt N... and you can see what's happening is your text is actually being indented one tab stop at a time... so it ends up as a narrow thin ribbon of text skating down the page... and if you do this really crazily you can end up with a document that is only just one word wide! It's a great way for producing long banners or waste paper but... And if you wanna actually reverse this process alt M takes it back... the other way. And if you get fed up of moving text one tab stop at a time... if you go alt P... you then actually remove all of the paragraph formatting that you add and it takes you back to your starting position. So when you got paragraph formatting... you can [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] eliminate paragraph formatting with alt P. Now has anybody actually got themselves in a total mess? [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Few... few hoots of laughter from the back! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Let's try another one, is it, go in text highlighted... try alt T [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] do you know what happens there? You wha, create what is called hanging indent. Your text and your paragraphs are indented by one tab stop but accept the first line. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So we have, looked something like our in our conclusions, you'll find the alt T is actually quite useful [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] because you can go down... in your first line move to the... first letter o, after the number, hit the tab key and you've actually lined up the first line along with the rest of your paragraph. So you produce nice numbered lists, looking very neat! Okay? Everything is lined up underneath the tab stop. Now this kind of ordering text on a page if you're using a typewriter takes quite a lot of skill... but if you're a, with a word processor it's actually quite easy. Honest! Right! [speaker002:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Have you got yourself into a total er [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker001:] Right! Okay. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Go shift F ten or select... now go alt P and cancel all paragraph formats. If you will just wait it takes a bit of time to get back where you want. [speaker002:] Ah! Yeah! [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So however a big a mess you make of things... however big a mess you make of things everything is usually retrievable. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] So rarely can you actually mess up a document in such a way that is totally irretrievable than the way in which things look. [speaker002:] It's not coming right over. [speaker001:] Yeah. Right, fine! [speaker002:] Can't get anyway. [speaker001:] Go alt space bar... should be it.... So this is fun learning to format! If you got mice i, you can also make things easier by actually moving that arrow around until you get to the individual word that you actually want to find and actually then you stop your cursor there. So, if you've got a mouse you could actually help speed up a lot of this editing but, I said, I've not written in the mouse commands into this schedule because we didn't actually have mice on all work stations when this was written. So, as I go round I'll show you erm, how to use the mouse... er a as as and when it becomes er appropriate. So what you'll have to do now is go back to erm... page... eighteen I guess, no haven't got page eighteen have we? I keep on losing bits of my document! Yeah, I should get one that... yeah page ten, it says return to your letter... and essentially i it tells you all the various formatting... options that you want to apply to your document to make it look neat and tidy. So, just go through pa, the er... commands on page ten and follow the instructions. And you should actually then produce a letter which is neat and tidy and worthy to send to... to Doctor... and not to your cat!... And just to prove that some students have got the hang of this... this is a letter that er... David... produced... and, it actually looks quite good! So, he's only had the same length of time doing this as you have so, by the end of the afternoon you ought to be in the position to print out a really neat... final version of of of the letter. One that you'll be proud, proud of. [speaker002:] Can I borrow a book, please? [speaker001:] Yeah sure. Also, if anybody's not actually paid me for their book... that they actually purchased last week, I'm open to accept... payment today. So is anybody in immediate problems at the moment or you're o... Okay, so, I'll, it's your chance now to do some work then for the next... twenty minutes or so. [speaker002:] Can you accept payments next week? [speaker001:] Yes. I'll go on accepting payment until the course finishes okay? I'll keep reminding you. [speaker002:] Oh, is it possible to Sir! Copy one disc onto another disc, how come I've done that? And why is it? [speaker001:] You want the file off? [speaker002:] No, why? I seem to have gone into this... exactly the same somehow. [speaker001:] Well if you copied all the files over. [speaker002:] Well I haven't though. I ju I jus I haven't been asked to. But I wonder if I've done something... copied one to six. [speaker001:] I bet that has.... If you go into DOS... right! So you go into A... cos we've got that disc in. [speaker002:] Yeah, that's the one that I keep. [speaker001:] Oh. Then just ask it to list all the files on that disc. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah? And then... there's the next one. [speaker002:] Oh right! [speaker001:] And that... now will list the same files on that disc [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] and in fact... it... is more or less the same but you check if some of them are missing. [speaker002:] But then I've lost my. I've lost [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] all the other things that were on... this disc originally. Ee! [speaker001:] Yeah, originally! [speaker002:] work. That one is now on this one, there's nothing on this. [speaker001:] And you just used all the... just did that? [speaker002:] Yeah I just did it as you said. I did a few of them.... [speaker001:] Right. [speaker002:] Well that's alright [LAUGHTER] I did that. Yeah. [speaker001:] I mean... some of your letters are there aren't they? [speaker002:] Erm [speaker001:] There's some of there. [speaker002:] Yeah but... that's and a couple of ones like that, and that one. That one, but I actually got onto the... the server. [speaker001:] Yeah, but that's what's on the server isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But, then, that's all your files that are available now, I think you've lost [speaker002:] Some of them must have been on there. [speaker001:] Have you done your boot? [speaker002:] No, but that's... on that one. This one here Oh yeah! [speaker001:] Well... I think that's happened, it's not like they dis, totally disappeared. [speaker002:] Is there any way you can delete... like the whole the at once? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] I mean, if you want to say delete... a temporary file... press del for delete [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] then star... that stands for a wild card, that'll do... all files which have got the... back up. [speaker002:] Oh right! [speaker001:] You better go and get some tea Margaret I haven't had a chance yet! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh right! Have you not done your bit yet? [speaker001:] I've done my bit. Yeah. [speaker002:] Oh! Right! Come and have a cup of coffee then?

[Cathy:] Natasha? [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] Sarah, I've seen Sarah [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Susie [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] yes, Aysha?... Natasha [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] Claire, over there, Brea oh yeah, does anybody know if Brea is still in hospital? [speaker002:] She's, she came out last week, but I still think she's feeling a bit [Cathy:] Jane Melanie here? Kate here?... Susie's here, Sarah [speaker002:] Haven't seen her yet, she might be here [Cathy:] Janice [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] Holly I've seen, Kerry's not here yet is she?... Right, shall we make a start because the time's pressing on. I've got some erm announcements for this morning, Vicky, erm first of all I'd like to introduce you to Anthony who comes from Longman's Dictionaries... why did, why did you do that Melanie? [speaker002:] Er cos I think you just told us that man you know last count didn't we, ask me [Cathy:] Yes [speaker002:] Good morning [Cathy:] Hello [speaker002:] I'm from the Evening News you're, you're recording [Cathy:] Oh good grief [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] sorry I've been all round the [Cathy:] yeah carry on [speaker002:] Right [Cathy:] take a picture of the recordist [speaker002:] never mind [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] Erm... Anthony is taping, he's in the college today, he's taping erm, the, the sounds that we make, the vocabulary that we use, not for the content of our classes that's right isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm [Cathy:] But for the way we actually use and pronounce our English language. [speaker002:] Oh no [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] And Anthony and his, Anthony and his colleagues are going around, is it just England or are you going to Scotland and Wales as well? [speaker002:] The whole of Great Britain, so Northern, Northern Ireland as well. [Cathy:] The whole of British Isles, right, erm in various sort of settings, different places, you're going to a school aren't you tomorrow [speaker002:] Mm [Cathy:] is that right? Various other places too, so they get a good idea of the English language as it's spoken in the nineteen nineties. This is for pros posterity [speaker002:] Smile [Cathy:] posterity, is that right?... For the future for erm, for record, we've not been able in the past to know how people spoke only from books, dictionaries and try to describe how people said things, erm, but this is a living record and I'm getting more and more embarrassed as the minutes go by [LAUGHTER] and those of you who are doing drama this afternoon, anybody doing drama? Erm he's going to be recording Frances' session [speaker002:] Oh right [Cathy:] as well, alright? Okay? So that's that, but he's not going to interfere with us talking, let's carry on, at about ten o'clock Graham is coming who is, I'm, as you know I'm doing erm, er a teaching course, I'm not a teacher you see, I'm a, I'm a nurse, he's coming to assess me on er, this is a teaching practice for me, alright, so he will come in and I think he'll sit over there and we'll just get on. Right last, last week we did erm cold injury in the new born didn't we?... We'll just recap briefly on what we did.... Thank you, fine... now this is [speaker002:] ... [Cathy:] Is that clear? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Right... did we actually do the susceptible babies? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Alright Jane?... Is that alright? [speaker002:] I don't know it's engaged, er Jill's trying to phone the school as well and that's engaged, so I don't know... [Cathy:] The bab the babies who are susceptible to getting this cold injury are, what did we do last week? What did we cover? [speaker002:] Erm cold [Cathy:] what type of babies did they cover? [speaker002:] Low birth weight [Cathy:] Pre-term, premature and small babies, there that, are you alright Kate? There are other reasons why babies might be susceptible, and there are a list of things that you may well know about from babies you're looking after. Where after they've been born, they might have had delayed breathing, not breathed immediately, so that type of baby might be at risk. If the actual delivery or the birth of the baby had been difficult, traumatic for example a forceps delivery or a very long labour, where the baby and the mum got very tired and exhausted... If there's any, if there's any congenital amalgamation we can discuss it we just have a recap, okay, if there's any congenital amalgamation particularly in the central nervous system, things like spina bifida, hydrocephalus, problems like that and any underlying infection or feeding difficulties and the feeding difficulties could be cause or effect, we've got a baby that's erm, who's temperature is dropping, it's getting more sleepy and erm it's difficult to feed and if a baby's not feeding properly it won't be able to warm itself up. If you're, if you're outside and you get really cold what do you do? [speaker002:] Warm yourself More clothing [Cathy:] Yeah, what else might you do? You'd go inside and have what a hot? [speaker002:] Drink [Cathy:] Yeah or a hot meal and that would really warm you up wouldn't it? So you can see that the last, this is a vicious circle. Kerry would you like to sort of sit over there or something? [speaker002:] I can see it's okay. [Cathy:] It's alright Kerry it's just that Graham has come to do, to observe my teaching and he'll be wanting to sit there, is that alright? [speaker002:] Yeah Kerry get a chair... Oh, erm could you leave that up Cathy for a minute?... [Cathy:] We need to think that why new babies are so prone to cold injury... and a lot of the reasons, can I take that down, are very obvious if you think about them... cold injury is the same as hypothermia. What other group of people get hypothermia? [speaker002:] Old people [Cathy:] Old people that's right, why do old people get hypothermia? [speaker002:] Because they don't move about very much. Cathy did we write this last week or not? [Cathy:] Erm [speaker002:] This one [Cathy:] I don't think we did [speaker002:] Right [Cathy:] I just want to go through it with you and recap. Old people because they don't move around, what else don't they do?... They perhaps don't eat much. What might be where they're living? It might be quite [speaker002:] Cold Cold and damp [Cathy:] Right their environment's cold... babies actually have a very large surface area... in relation to their weight. If you look at a baby they're totally out of proportion and they have huge heads don't they? Compared to the rest of their body and they don't have much hair, if any, to keep them warm. They have very large bodies and little limbs, so the heat lost from their heads and their bodies could be quite great. That makes sense to you? [speaker002:] Yeah. What does it say at the end in relation to what? [Cathy:] Weight, W T [speaker002:] Yeah, that's what I thought [Cathy:] abbreviation, weight [speaker002:] ... [Cathy:] When babies are born, erm what are they? Er are they dry or [speaker002:] Wet Wet [Cathy:] If you come out of a swimming pool and stand at the side what happens to you? [speaker002:] You get cold [Cathy:] Mm and shiver. Right the body surface at birth is wet and therefore cools quite rapidly... so they've got big surface area and they're born wet and they have to be dried off. When they're, when they're inside their mums, do they have to control their temperature? [speaker002:] No because the mother does that for them [Cathy:] That's right, well it's in a, they're in a, in a very warm environment aren't they? And it's con the temperature is constant, it's like being in an incubator. Body temperature is ninety eight point four isn't it? And it stays like that throughout, so the baby does not use its mechanism to control the temperature, it's kept at that constant degree of warmth and it's only when the baby comes out that it has to start looking after itself. So what I've written is babies prior to birth do not control their temperature, they have the ability to control their temperature because that's a little space in the brain, but they don't need to use it. They're kept warm... When you saw those little babies last week that were born very, very premature, apart from being very small, if you looked at those arms and legs and their bodies what was the noticeably different about them than a full term baby? [speaker002:] Colour of their skin. [Cathy:] Colour, yeah, something else... [speaker002:] The way they breath, breathing [Cathy:] What was that Sarah? [speaker002:] breathing [Cathy:] Breathing, no something to do about their physical appearance [speaker002:] They're really curled up more than like a normal baby aren't they, they're all sort of, you know, foetal position. [Cathy:] No it's to do with they don't have that much fat on them. A new born baby can be really quite chubby and these little premature babies have very, very little fat under their skin and fat insulates us doesn't it? It keeps us warm, so pre-term and small babies have very little fat to insulate them, therefore they're gonna get cold aren't they? And these are all reasons why these babies might get cold.... If you come out of our, out of a swimming pool and you're wet and you stand on the side and you're beginning to get cold, what's your body reaction, what do you do? [speaker002:] Shiver Shiver and you get goose bumps [Cathy:] Shiver, right. Have you ever seen a baby shiver? [speaker002:] No they can't shiver They don't shiver And they [Cathy:] Babies, babies actually can't shiver. They're unable to do it and shivering is a body reaction to being cold to make you warm up because it's rapid movement... and babies can't do that, this isn't very clear, hang on... that better? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] That's better, top goes, but... right so babies cannot shiver which is a temperature raising or maintaining mechanism.... We've said that when it's a baby inside its mum, doesn't have to control its own temperature, and in actual fact it's several days after birth, after the baby's born that it can effectively produce its own heat... and its metabolism functions efficiently. Metabolism is the process by which you take in food, use it and convert it into energy and heat, er several days, so there were several days after the baby's born when it's really very much at risk of getting cold injury.... it's an enormous adaptation that the baby has to make from being cocooned inside its mum to actually living outside, it has a whole host of new things to do, it's gotta breath, it's gotta eat it's erm, it's excretory system has got to work, bowels and bladder, it's got to control its own temperature.... When a baby's born, er you wrap it up and you put it in its cot and it's very inactive isn't it? They're not very active are they? [speaker002:] No [Cathy:] And in the first day of life they tend to sleep an awful lot, right, so newborns tend to be sleepy and inactive... and the things that, that wake babies up and warm them are feeding, crying, limb movement. So within, your very new born sleeping all the time it, its body temperature can begin to drop without you knowing.... the older the baby gets the less common it is to find the cold injury.... Can I take that down? [speaker002:] No... [Cathy:] Move up?... We're going to go on to the effects of chilling and what damage does that do? [speaker002:] Chilling? [Cathy:] We did, chilling, yeah getting cold, last year we did, in your first aid course you did hypothermia didn't you? What's the normal body temperature, can anybody remember? [speaker002:] Thirty seven degrees [Cathy:] Or [speaker002:] Ninety eight Ninety eight Thirty six [Cathy:] What, what is it in fahrenheit? [speaker002:] Ninety eight [Cathy:] Thirty seven or ninety eight point four [speaker002:] Oh [Cathy:] round about... okay?... If the body temperature falls to, sorry we're not clear again are we?... Falls to thirty two degrees centigrade or ninety degrees fahrenheit... the following can occur and that's a big drop, that's a drop of five degrees... in this country we're very used to rapid temperature changes in our environment... in the spring you can have frost in the morning and it can get really quite hot by the afternoon, sometimes up to about seventy can't it? And then the temperature drops down rapidly again. Right, what do you think might happen if a baby's getting chilled, what signs do you think might you notice? [speaker002:] Blue Cold to the touch. [Cathy:] Yeah cold to touch [speaker002:] Blue Blue [Cathy:] Yeah [speaker002:] Crying Pale skin [Cathy:] Pale skin, right, what about its behaviour? [speaker002:] Crying [Cathy:] They may not cry actually something else that could be quite actually misleading... might sleep, be very sleepy, difficult to wake, so if you've got the baby and you think your baby's due for a feed and it didn't take very much at the last feed, you can't wake it up... you shouldn't think oh well I'll have to wait for another four hours, beginning to get worried... so if the baby's difficult to wake... if it's difficult to feed... not sucking very well... if the baby's cold to touch and then there's something which is very, very misleading, these babies can have bright red cheeks and bright red hands and feet and if you look at them you think oh they must be warm because they're red... don't be fooled by the healthy appearance. Always touch a baby, its hands and its feet... and the feet are a better guide to my hands, because babies' hands can often be cold. If you've got cold feet at night can you go to sleep?... [speaker002:] Depends how tired I am. [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] Who, who if they've cold feet lies awake, till they warm up? [speaker002:] Got socks [Cathy:] So that's very, very important because it can be very misleading and you could be fooled into thinking that there's nothing wrong with the baby, then there'll also be swelling of the hands, feet and the eyelids might swell up, the medical word for that is oedema which you may well see in books, which means swelling... occasionally the overlying skin is [speaker002:] Cathy [Cathy:] hard... and these babies can look really serene and peaceful... so serene and peaceful that next time you go they're not there any more, well their body's there.... Okay got that down?... Serene... it means peaceful and calm, erm... Treatment, you should, if you think back to your hypothermia, what are the very simple practical things you can do if you find a baby that you think, suspect's got cold injury? [speaker002:] Give it hot, oh not hot [LAUGHTER] a warm drink or You have to warm it up cuddle it and [Cathy:] You may or may not be able to do that because it may have lost consciousness, alright, but we'll put down warm drink if possible. [speaker002:] Raise the temperature of the room. [Cathy:] If it's unconscious you can't do that, you'd choke it [speaker002:] Raise the temperature of the room Mouth to mouth don't you? and cuddle the baby [Cathy:] You would give it mouth to mouth if it was dead, if its heart had stopped beating. If you find a baby er you'd pick it up, it's sort of very erm sleepy you can't rouse it and it's got bright red cheeks and feet and you realize that it's cold, what are you going to do immediately? [speaker002:] Cuddle it [Cathy:] Cuddle it... right, it's wrapped up in about six layers of erm whatever, are you just going to pick it up and cuddle it or are you going to do anything with all those layers? [speaker002:] Take Take into the room temperature and take the covers off. [Cathy:] You've got a number of things here, you would take off the outer layer and you would bring it close to your body, if you, if you just pick it up with lots of layers around it you're insulating it aren't you, to keep it cold, so you cuddle it close to your body... right, and you remove outer layers of cloths... Melanie said something about room temperature, right... you raise the room temperature, okay? What else would it be a good idea to do if you had something to do it with, about the temperature? You'd want to know [speaker002:] Take its temperature [Cathy:] Yes... take the ta baby's temperature... that, this way you know whether the temperature's falling or going up, don't you? And you can report that because this baby's going to need to go to hospital... right so those are the three things you do, you raise the room temperature, erm you cuddle the baby close to your own body which should be warm, removing any excess layers, you can then wrap a blanket around yourself and the baby, if you can, give it a warm drink but you, you may, may not be able to do that, you take the baby's temperature and you seek medical advice... right... Is that quite clear? That's very similar to the straightforward hypothermia that you'd might find in an old person or somebody who's in a, in a snowy field all night, have you all got that? [speaker002:] Yeah... [Cathy:] But of course, better than treatment we have prevention don't we?... What can we do to prevent this situation from arising? Quite a lot of things, right Melanie what, what temperature would you like? [speaker002:] About... [Cathy:] Shall we say seventy degrees fahrenheit [speaker002:] What's that in normal [Cathy:] What's that in [speaker002:] We're asking you [LAUGHTER] Twenty five, no [Cathy:] Is twenty five a bit hot? [speaker002:] Yeah No cosy [LAUGHTER] Isn't it eighteen or twenty? [Cathy:] Yes I think you're right actually, shall we put, shall we put twenty? [speaker002:] Go on then. [Cathy:] Er it's important to keep that constant twenty four hours a day... there's a danger area when new born babies are actually put into their own rooms, particularly in the winter, if they're in the room with their, with their parents and the room temperature falls very low, the parent's likely to notice and get cold themselves which means they'll pay attention to the baby, if the baby is far end of the house, up the north end where the wind's blowing, right, er what else can we do to keep the baby warm? [speaker002:] Blankets and clothing. [Cathy:] Right, what, what about blankets and clothing? [speaker002:] Well not too much [Cathy:] Right [speaker002:] not one big thing Yeah lots of small things Not one big thing, lots of little layers... [Cathy:] Several layers, lots of, fairly thin layers, why is that warmer than one thick layer? [speaker002:] Because it insulates the it traps air between each layer. [Cathy:] It traps the air between the layer, the layer and air, air is a good insulator, alright. So several layers' warmer than one thick one.... What else about the fabrics that you use? Celia, what about the fabrics that you might use for a baby?... Which are the natural fibres? [speaker002:] Cotton [Cathy:] There's another one to keep very warm [speaker002:] silk [Cathy:] Silk... in actual fact mixtures of synthetic and natural fibres are very, very good because they give the warmth of the natural fibres plus the erm enduring properties of the manmade fibres which wash and last well, okay, but natural fibres are much, much warmer.... What else might you do? What should you do? What other things is the baby exposed to, it might make it cold? [speaker002:] Draughts [Cathy:] Draughts, very good... make sure the baby's not in a draught... can you think of anything else?... [speaker002:] Damp Keep a baby in like a warm baby-gro... [Cathy:] Babies should have their nappies changed regularly because when they become wet they give off heat don't they? [speaker002:] Oh yeah [Cathy:] Right, the the same way as when they dribble and they're, maybe a little bit sick, their clothing gets damp, it acts as a conductor of warmth so it will cool them and it will make them sore as well, so keep the baby dry as possible.... Now these are all things that you should be doing with the baby all the time anyway aren't they? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] The good care... there's one other thing that we talked briefly about in the signs and symptoms and what happened that you could check for... you look at a baby, what else do you do? [speaker002:] Touch [Cathy:] Right, what would you touch? [speaker002:] The feet The feet... [Cathy:] Right so you touch its extremities... and if you feel that its little feet are lovely and warm you know that it's alright, okay? You touch the extremities, the hands and feet... you can keep the head covered as well particularly when you take the baby out.... Other things you can do, when you put a baby into its bed you can make sure the bed's warm can't you? You could have warmed it up with a hot water bottle or a heat pad... don't leave it there with the baby in it, but you can certainly warm the bed first, you can warm the baby's clothes, keep them in the airing cupboard, or lots of houses around here have Agas don't they? You can warm them up on the Aga, okay?... Obviously... cold injury is far more common... when would you expect cold injury to be common? [speaker002:] In a temperature of maybe erm [Cathy:] er right, what about seasonal? Right, winter babies are more susceptible... and small okay?... Do you want to pass a chair up Sarah and Tasha?... Sarah you'll need to get all this information from somebody else. [speaker002:] Right. [Cathy:] Are there any questions about that? Does it worry anybody?... We're going to go on to what used to be called club foot... which is a fairly gross word... word... Right... [speaker002:] How do you pronounce that, talipes? [Cathy:] Talipes [speaker002:] Talipes [Cathy:] the er main word for that is club foot, what does that mean, does anybody like to tell me? [speaker002:] We saw it at the hospital [Cathy:] did you? Right [speaker002:] ... [Cathy:] What did, Melanie, can you tell us what you did then? [speaker002:] It's when the foot's twisted round, it won't stay square. [Cathy:] It can be, it can be two types of, what can it be do you know? It can either be fixed or it can be mobile, we'll go on to that, I've actually drawn you four pictures, not very good pictures [speaker002:] Aargh [Cathy:] There you are... you think of that as your foot, this one is where the foot, erm goes inwards, can you see? That one, that's the big toe, is where the foot actually is twisted outwards... this one is where the foot is curved under, and that I've put in... red because it's the most common sort, very common, that is where the foot is forced up... and that one is where it looks as though it's standing on its toes.... Those are the more or less the five variations on a theme. What problems do you think club foot talipes might cause? [speaker002:] Shoes Delays walking doesn't it? Can't walk Difficulty walking Delays growth and walking doesn't it? [Cathy:] If you have, sorry? [speaker002:] Delays growth and development and walking [Cathy:] Certainly delays walking, that earlier development. If you had this type you wouldn't actually be able to walk properly at all would you? [speaker002:] Wouldn't be able to walk... Oh no... [Cathy:] Want to draw them all do you? [speaker002:] Oh yeah No Yeah Can you quickly stick it up please... [Cathy:] is a foot deformity, present at birth... right, present at birth, it doesn't happen afterwards, it happens, it's caused before the baby's born... and it's more common in boys... can be one or both foot, feet. How do you think it might be caused?... [speaker002:] If the mother's had mumps or something Bad feet posi positioning in, in the stomach. [Cathy:] Foetal position, yes, what sort of foetal position? [speaker002:] Wow Breach If it's been, if the baby's sort of squashed... The feet have been bent up, the feet have been squashed and bent up. [Cathy:] So it's caused by foetal position and there's something that can make it worse, you know the mother erm inside erm the womb there's a bag of fluid that the baby floats in [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] right, if there isn't very much of that fluid, there's very little fluid, there'll be more pressure on the baby won't there? Because the fluid acts as a kind of cushion. So I've written too little liquor for them, a wonderful word which is actually the proper word, called onigohydromonous [speaker002:] That's wonderful [Cathy:] Amniotic fluid, you all know what that is don't you? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] If I write this on the board, I'll break it down for you because it's a word you may well see, sorry about that... [speaker002:] Cathy [Cathy:] Yeah [speaker002:] what does that say too little? [Cathy:] Liquor [speaker002:] Pardon? [Cathy:] you know that word [speaker002:] It's liquor [Cathy:] liquor, liquor, yeah, that's erm the fluid that the baby floats in, amniotic fluid, liquor [speaker002:] I've never heard of that [Cathy:] Have you not heard it? [speaker002:] No... [Cathy:] Pe, if you haven't heard, you've all heard of amniotic fluid, put that then. [speaker002:] What's the other one? How do you spell that onigohydromo [Cathy:] I was going to write it on the board for you [speaker002:] What's the other one?... [Cathy:] it's all one word, but I'll write it [speaker002:] What one? Onigo... [Cathy:] That is water isn't it? Hydro is water [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] amnio amniotic fluid, and onigo means not much [speaker002:] Oh [Cathy:] and that's the medical word for it, draw, write it in a line [speaker002:] not much amniotic fluid [Cathy:] Sorry I've left a bit out [speaker002:] That's what it means... [Cathy:] Can you see that?... It's quite a common event in, and it can be two types, it can be either fixed or flexible, if it's fixed it means the foot is in a position that you can't move out of if it's flexible it means that the baby has its foot like that but you can actually rotate it [speaker002:] Aargh But it will go back to the same position as that? [Cathy:] Yes, would they go back to the same position, quite right Sarah... when do babies start to walk? [speaker002:] It could be er [Cathy:] Between what ages? [speaker002:] Nine to a year [Cathy:] Nine months, yeah, to what? [speaker002:] Eighteen months or eighteen [LAUGHTER] Behave [Cathy:] Right, if babies actually don't walk normally until they're between nine months or eighteen months to two years. When you walk you wait there for the first time don't you? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Until that time a baby won't hurt its feet in a walking position, they'll be fairly mobile won't they if you think about it, and how does a baby hold its feet when it's crawling? When a baby's crawling how does it hold its feet? [speaker002:] Like that. [Cathy:] Right, they go out behind don't they? yeah [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Cathy:] Have any of you been on, on placements where mums have been really quite worried about their baby's feet and asked questions? [speaker002:] No No [Cathy:] lots of mums will ask about their baby's feet, do you think there's anything wrong with this, and they'll sort of be holding their feet sort of wiggling them around, doing this, that and the other [speaker002:] That's disgusting innit? [Cathy:] and they'll get very worried, and it's quite a difficult area because you have to be on the look out for something that's not right, but you don't want people to get er very worried because those feet are going to be very mobile and doing non walking thing until the child walks, they're also very fat and podgy aren't they little babies' feet? And they have very short toes [speaker002:] Stodgy... [Cathy:] What I would say, if there's any doubt, if a mother has any doubt about her baby's feet she should see the doctor and he will refer if he thinks necessary... so... most babies' feet can look quite odd at times and they will hold them in strange positions. [speaker002:] What's pigeon toed? [Cathy:] Pigeon toed is where you actually walk with your toes like that, isn't it? [speaker002:] Move over a bit I can't see [Cathy:] What would you do for pigeon toes Kelly? [speaker002:] Do what? For pigeon toes [Cathy:] What's the best treatment for pigeon toed? [speaker002:] I had that and my mum sent me to ballet classes [Cathy:] That's the answer, ballet classes [speaker002:] Really, yeah that's what my mum did. [Cathy:] because er train trains them the girls and the boys to turn their toes out, which is what we require in our society I believe. Right keep notes, er we're not talking about pigeon toes, we're talking about club foot, which is a real problem, if we don't treat this the baby when it grows up it's gonna have difficulties in walking. What do you think the treatment might be? [speaker002:] They [Cathy:] That's right, that's one treatment [speaker002:] Have physiotherapy done... [Cathy:] If the foot... Melanie could you give us of the Jenny in the plaster room? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] How old was the child? [speaker002:] Some of them were like babies the little babies Yeah some of them and some of them are quite like about seven or [Cathy:] Really that big? alright, fair enough, if, if the, if the deformity is mobile that means you can move it, you can actually do a lot of manipulation and physiotherapy and that can work very well. What would happen is that the physiotherapist would actually train the mother to do it, she would show her what exercises need to be done and they have to be done almost constantly, several times a day and whenever there's a spare moment, so therefore it's not feasible for it to be done in a hospital is it?... And then the mum would bring the child back up regularly for assessment, to make sure that it was satisfactory.... If it's fixed that means that you can't move it or it's very problematic, it's not going right, they do strapping, splints and plaster of paris as some of you have seen. How do the children react to having these plasters put on their feet? [speaker002:] Some of them They don't like it coming off was the worse They thought it was gonna cut through their leg. [Cathy:] If, for instance, if extremely problematic strapping, splints or plaster of paris treatments are used... and treatment should be started as soon as possible after birth, so the sooner you notice these things the better... You've all had your hospital experience, has anybody not actually seen a child with erm club foot? You all seen one? [speaker002:] I haven't. I don't think so. [Cathy:] Does anybody know whether they had one when they were a child? [speaker002:] I, I had, my foot was in that way. I had one that [Cathy:] What treatment did you have? it sort of sorted itself out did it? [speaker002:] No I had a few things done, but [Cathy:] You probably had the physiotherapy and the your mum [speaker002:] I don't, I'd have to ask her [Cathy:] Well you wouldn't remember would you?... Can you take one of these each and just read it through.... [speaker002:] What does it say after [Cathy:] What does it say after what? As soon after birth as possible. [speaker002:] Cathy... [Cathy:] Right have you, have you read that? [speaker002:] No not yet. [Cathy:] Just read it through... Are there any question?... Right so that's looked for at birth, what's the other thing they check for at birth? Well they check a number of things, but... Sarah do you know what they're looking for? [speaker002:] Erm, where the ball isn't in the socket properly or it doesn't clicky hips [Cathy:] Right, clicky hips, right... does anybody know what the proper name for it is? [speaker002:] Genital dislocation Genital dislocation of the hip Hip dislocation [Cathy:] that means you're born with it right? You all know what dislocation is... of the hips... and this is another condition which should be spotted at birth, soon after. I've drawn some pictures just to show you what happens. [speaker002:] Are we gonna get a leaflet on this or not?... Cathy do we need to draw these? [Cathy:] Well if we... genital dislocation of the hips... [speaker002:] Cathy, Cathy do we have to draw these pictures? [Cathy:] Erm... I think I've got a picture for you, no you needn't, but you need [speaker002:] Right, thank you [Cathy:] you need to look carefully, alright? Liked to pull that down... that's a normal hip joint, this is your bony pelvis with the socket joint, right, socket, this is your leg bone the femur, with the head of the femur at the top and it looks like that and they fit into one another and it forms a very good swinging joint you can do all sorts of things with your hip joint, can't you? You can swing your leg round, move it outwards... it's a simple ball and socket joint and it's used in engineering quite a bit isn't it? Is it? Oh, so... the head of the femur locks into this socket, this groove, this hollow and it's held, what's it held with? [speaker002:] Cartilage Tissue [Cathy:] Yeah, what sort of tissue? [speaker002:] Well erm Cartilage [Cathy:] Muscles and what else? [speaker002:] Cartilage [Cathy:] Not really, no it's held by muscles and ligaments, hello Graham, I have told them that you're coming, this is Graham [speaker002:] Morning [Cathy:] right, he's coming to learn about dislocated hips, so this is a normal hip joint and you can see that the socket is well into the grooves, isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Right, this red thing here is just the lining of the socket joint, right... is that clear? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Happy about that? The one underneath shows us what happens if... the hip is dislocated or loose [speaker002:] Urgh [Cathy:] right, got your socket joint the same, but you can see the head of the femur is not inside it... is it? [speaker002:] How does that happen? [Cathy:] That's a very good question, there's a number of reasons for it happening, erm... it might be that the groove, the, the socket bit is very shallow, like a shallow tea cup and the hip, the leg bone doesn't stay in it properly, does that make sense to you? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Big one, it might be that the muscles and ligaments are weak [speaker002:] Cathy surely if it's like you know said that would be too big to go in there anyway [Cathy:] No not [speaker002:] you said that was too shallow, so it didn't fit in, how can it be mended? [Cathy:] Erm well what I, what happens, I think that's good, it's act it's not, it's not inside because it's encapsulated, it's not inside because it's held in there by the socket joint... if I draw, draw you a picture, it's not because the socket joint is so tight it can't fall out, is that what you're saying to me? [speaker002:] No, no, you said that it was, you said that because it was not always in there maybe because the socket's too shallow So how can it be fixed if that's too small to put it in so how can you put it back in if that's too shallow? [Cathy:] Because it would, it would slide back in and it's actually held in by muscles and ligaments, right [speaker002:] So it doesn't matter that it's too shallow [Cathy:] It makes it easier for it to fall out, when a woman is pregnant, in the last few months of pregnancy she produces lots of hormones which relax the muscles in her body don't they? [speaker002:] Mm, mm [Cathy:] Do you remember doing this? Muscle relaxants during pregnancy, these get into the baby as well and it relax the baby's muscles and they would relax these ligaments and muscles around the hip joint which means that the hips can be not as they should be, alright? So the causes are, the socket might be too shallow... or the ligaments or muscles might be too loose [speaker002:] Is there writing on the sheet as well? [Cathy:] Yes [speaker002:] Should, no do we have to write it? [Cathy:] I would write it down if I were you, yes, right... and things like a breach delivery, what's a breach delivery? [speaker002:] Feet first Bum upwards [Cathy:] If you think about a baby coming out bottom first, it can't do very much for its hips can it?... Really gives them a good old yank and a push [speaker002:] Ooh [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] and then somebody comes and grabs it by the legs and pulls it. [speaker002:] Ah [LAUGHTER]... [Cathy:] There are various types of breach delivery... you can come out one foot first, two feet first or you can come out with your legs actually up against your face, in which case there's terrible traction on the hips, alright, and all that will cause dislocation... so you, you can see the difference can't you?... That socket inside of the hip joint held together nicely with er muscles and ligaments and this one not in at all properly.... All it is, is where the head of the femur is not correctly positioned in the hip socket and the proper name for the hip socket, you'll see in your books is acetabulum... This is definitely a condition which is familiar as a fam a family tendency and if you think about it if you have a, a, a big hip socket your children are likely to have big hip sockets... it's a family family tendency, it affects more girls than boys, many more girls than boys, having said that Lord Byron had erm congenital dislocated hips. [speaker002:] Who's he? Is he?... [Cathy:] It's about one in fifteen hundred birth... and as we've said before it is often found in abnormal presentation like a breach, bottom first.... To spot this what procedure is carried out?... [speaker002:] Examination and physio Yeah [Cathy:] Do you know what they do? They rotate the hips, all babies are routinely examined at delivery and they'll find quite a number I would, of babies with slightly clicky hips, the reason for that is because of the hormones that have, er are in the baby's body to relax all the muscles, those will go away after a few days, so when they're re-checked at twelve days a number of the clicks they heard originally will no longer be there.... And what they do, I'm going to try and show you on this doll in a minute, the hips are abducted which means they're brought right up against the chest and then they're pulled round and they're rotated in the socket and you feel and listen for a click... [speaker002:] What does it say in green Cathy? [Cathy:] Feel and listen [speaker002:] No the above one [Cathy:] Observe... talk about that in a minute. There are other signs that might lead you to believe that there's things not as they might be, the legs may not be equal length... particularly if only one is dislocated and that's fairly obvious isn't it because the, the, the ball joint's not in the socket and there's a bigger gap so the leg hangs down longer... and you've all changed a baby haven't you and you see that they've got little creases in the insides of their legs and across their buttocks, and those creases may not be a mirror matching... they are normally, so those are clues.... Can I turn that off?... I've brought a doll to show you if you'd like to see what they do when they rotate babies' hips, would you all like to see that? [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] One doll out of the cupboard. Do you want to come up round? I'll explain it to you, if you've got to stand in a circle because you can't see from over there you won't actually ever do this yourself, but you may well see it being done, in fact you probably will. People who do this are actually given a training, this doesn't hurt the baby, they don't mind, their bones are very soft... you'll look at your baby, all of you can look at babies that you're caring for and you hold them and you see well is that leg longer than the other? I think this one is definitely longer than the other, right, so hold its legs down. You look for the creases, if you look at this doll is lov beautifully creased and you can see that the creases almost match each other, you turn the baby over and there's lots of little creases and they match, can you all see that? [speaker002:] Can't see. [Cathy:] Right... you then get your baby, you'll see the midwives doing this, you stabilize the baby pelvis, because otherwise it will just sort of go all over the place won't it, and this doll is, is fairly fixed, it's not a very soft thing like a baby and you, with your hand you put your finger which is about the same length as the baby's finger isn't it? If you think about it, you slide it into where the joint would be along the line of the femur bone, you bend the knee up, and you pull it right up and you rotate it [speaker002:] Ouch [Cathy:] and you bring it down, and if there's anything wrong you'll feel it slowly so that it may click, you do one side and then the other, right... the old fashioned treatment for erm dislocated hip was double nappies, er do you know what that? [speaker002:] Give it more support [Cathy:] you're actually splaying the legs out aren't you? Right and if you splay the legs out like that [speaker002:] Ouch [Cathy:] you're actually [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Doing yoga there [Cathy:] you're actually pushing the head of the femur back into the joint and the modern treatment is they put babies in splints, they lay them on like frames from splints and they're strapped into them and they stay in them from anything up to a year, and babies don't mind, but if you, if you think about it, if you do a double nappy... [speaker002:] Very absorbent [Cathy:] you're actually putting a great thick wedge between the baby's legs [speaker002:] Cor [Cathy:] and you're [speaker002:] got a bloody innit? [Cathy:] and you're actually partly doing that aren't you? [speaker002:] My sister had it when she had [Cathy:] Oh did she? What happened to your sister? [speaker002:] Oh she's alright, she just had double nappies on for a very long time [Cathy:] and they weren't disposable were they? [speaker002:] No, no they were terries [Cathy:] Right, so the terries, terries are the best things... any questions about that? You'll probably see that being done and you may well see some babies in a splint.... So the treatment is double nappy if it's not a very er serious one or if they notice a click just after delivery they would immediately put the baby in double nappies. If it's diagnosed as erm leaving treatment there's a variety of splints that frames that you lie the baby on, strap them in and they remain in that position with their legs [speaker002:] Alright don't do it again Cathy [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] like that [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] okay, that's how they are. They're not uncomfortable, they get used to it. [speaker002:] Used to it, god. [Cathy:] You all see six month old babies putting their feet in their mouths haven't you? they don't, it doesn't bother them at all right, they're used under supervision... and they're used until the head of the femur right, the head of the femur is fixed back into the socket joint and the muscles and ligaments have tightened up so that they hold the bone in place... and treatment can go on until they're about a year... the consequences of not treating this condition are... quite severe, the child will grow up with a very odd gait. [speaker002:] Gait? [Cathy:] If you, if you are standing like this and you pick up one foot you will slightly raise your pelvis on the opposite side won't you? Do you want to try that? [speaker002:] No, not particularly. [Cathy:] Stand up pick up, pick up your, your right foot... what happens to your pelvis, does it go up a bit? [speaker002:] Yeah. [Cathy:] Right, somebody with congenital dislocation of the hip, the hip will sag down... it will cause them great difficulty and they have a waddling gait, and they'll walk like this... and if you look at African women a lot of them have congenital dislocation of the hip when they waddle [speaker002:] Cathy [Cathy:] because it's not treated [speaker002:] what does erm, that blue writing, the third line down? Last word [Cathy:] Right [speaker002:] keep going [Cathy:] this is used until the femoral head, head of femur, femoral head and the acetabulum which is that socket joint have grown, because they will grow, they both get bigger and the muscles and ligaments hold them firmly together, right, so that the hip no longer slides out of its joint.... it's essential that that's treated. [speaker002:] Can we have another look at it please. [Cathy:] You have a sorry... I've got a little handout for you with bits of information and there's also a picture of a breach presentation and this baby has got its feet right up into its high socket.... Can I take this down? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Are there any questions about that? Is it quite clear what happens, why and how it's treated? [speaker002:] Yeah Sorry I missed the whole, what did she say? Cathy when I was in hospital in er a physiotherapy bit, where they, where they brought children in, erm there was this little girl and like she was riding round on a little bike, you know, so she's quite, quite old and she had er, in, in brace, but her legs were like out at the side and her feet were pointing down and they're pointing up, I'm just a bit confused. [Cathy:] Well this is a fixed doll isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah, well they would go down wouldn't they? [Cathy:] And she might well hold her because, but when you say quite old, what do you mean? [speaker002:] Well she is [Cathy:] Was she seven or was she [speaker002:] Oh no about three something like that, she wasn't a baby what I meant [Cathy:] She, she's about three right, fine, okay, she's got past toddler stage, if, you see, if, if she was three and her feet were in splint, did she wal she didn't wait there did she? [speaker002:] No it was in er, in was in like a plaster of paris thing [Cathy:] Right, so she couldn't actually walk [speaker002:] No, she was riding a little bike [Cathy:] She could pedal? [speaker002:] No she was had her feet on the ground [Cathy:] Oh right [speaker002:] they were straight Her feet Her legs, she couldn't bend the legs Her legs were out to the side like that [Cathy:] Yes [speaker002:] and when she walked they were sort of [Cathy:] right, so she was like a frog? Like, like that? [speaker002:] Oh no, you're talking about I can't describe it, she had, her legs were out to the side, but they were pointing down like that [Cathy:] Yes that's right, right well that's a baby, that's a baby that will be like that, but she's older, so her legs would be, she would be in that position wouldn't she? Because she's an older child. [speaker002:] But is it because they left it too late or something then? [Cathy:] Erm, it sounds a bit grim if she's three and she's in a hip plaster, yes or a splint [speaker002:] Yeah it was a plaster, it was a plaster [Cathy:] Yeah, yeah, but every case is different, you don't, I mean she might of been in some car accident or something like that you see, mightn't she? [speaker002:] Mm, she might of been, I don't think she was, but [Cathy:] There are, you know, there are, yeah, occasionally they, they aren't diagnosed, very unfortunate. Look at this position... my rubber, when... about six days after baby's born they take erm blood erm don't they from the heel, do you remember that? What's it called? [speaker002:] The birth blood test [Cathy:] Named after a person by the name of Guffbry... it is initially used to diagnosed what? Can you remember? Do you know? [speaker002:] Brain damage or something... Spina bifida isn't it? [Cathy:] Somebody mentioned this to me the other day [speaker002:] P K U Penal [Cathy:] P K U, have you all heard of P K U? [speaker002:] Yes... What is it? [Cathy:] we're going to find out. [speaker002:] I've said it about four times What is it? [Cathy:] The proper word is, come from a very long word, a real mouthful, phenylketonuria, known as P K U for short P U, and Mr Guffbry developed this test specifically to diagnose this condition, but in nineteen ninety two there are other conditions which they diagnose at the same time with the same blood test, do you know what they are? no that's obvious, because this is after the baby's born [speaker002:] Oh right [Cathy:] Something that you may not notice at birth [speaker002:] Is it brain damage? [Cathy:] this will cause brain damage [speaker002:] Oh that's right [Cathy:] another dis another disorder [speaker002:] Diabetes? [Cathy:] An awful word which is used in the English language cretinism have you heard of this awful word cretinism? [speaker002:] No, it's horrible [Cathy:] Cretinism is used as a term of abuse isn't it? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Right, in actual fact cretinism is a medical condition where there's lack of thyroid... and this is found, this is tested for at birth as well so we don't have any cretins in our society because they're all treated, the other thing they check for, do you know what it is?... Cystic fibrosis, you've all heard of that haven't you? [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] A very nasty disorder, which causes so after these tests, and we did this last year, check the P K U, cretinism and cystic fibrosis, we're going to look at P K U today, right, erm what it is, rub that off? [speaker002:] Can I just, can I just erm that please, write it rather. Is that done at birth then that blood test, is the blood test done at birth? [Cathy:] It's done at six days [speaker002:] Excuse me Cathy, excuse me. [Cathy:] The proper name for... cretinism is hypothyroidism, which means hypo is not enough as in hypothermia, thyroid means thyroid, -ism, it's the three things they check for, can I pull that down? [speaker002:] Yeah.... [Cathy:] Does, does anybody know what P K U is caused by? [speaker002:] Don't know. [Cathy:] Has anybody got any idea? [speaker002:] No... [Cathy:] It's actually caused by an inability in the digestive system to break down an essential food that we eat, so there's one type of food that the body cannot use and this body, this, this component, this food substance turns to a, a poison and causes severe damage to the individual who's affected.... Do you remember doing your, your di nutrition assignments last year? [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] And protein is made up of a number of what, can you remember? [speaker002:] Amino acids [Cathy:] Yes lovely, amino acids, right, it's one particular amino acid... there are eight essential amino, amino acids and it's one of these and it's called venial alanine you don't have to remember that, it's very difficult to, to remember. The body cannot use it [speaker002:] What was it? [Cathy:] but it's essential to the body to have it... [speaker002:] The result is a what a rise in it or [Cathy:] Right, this results in a rise [speaker002:] A rise [Cathy:] of the substance venial alanine... it, the level rises up in the blood, it's a bit like overfilling a jug, if you have a quarter pint jug and you have a pint of milk, when you get to the top you don't stop pouring, it spills out the edge and in the body it actually goes into the body tissues, nowhere else to go... and it causes a devastating result, it causes abnormal mental development, it causes gross retardation.... It causes abnormal physical development, now you've all seen a Downs Syndrome person haven't you? [speaker002:] Mm, mm [Cathy:] And you know they have a very distinctive characteristic don't they, they have round faces and they're short and they have slightly slanting eyes, etcetera etcetera, well these children have very marked physical erm appearance... they're fair haired and blue eyed... the reason for that is that this substance venial alanine is responsible for the production of pigment, so if that's interfered with they're going to be fair haired and blue eyed, they get eczema a lot, they have small heads and they have very widely spaced teeth, sorry down a bit, is that what you want? [speaker002:] No I thought you was you were reading them off as you [Cathy:] No I'm not I'm just telling you [speaker002:] Oh right [Cathy:] so they, they, their physical appearance is very marked, they're fair haired, blue eyed erm they get ecz they have small heads and very widely spaced, spaced teeth, a bit like a cartoon... and they have, they have general ill health, they're not very well people... [speaker002:] [sneeze] Oh excuse me. [Cathy:] Now when they're born there won't be any problems at all and that's to do with the way they feed before they're born, how's a baby fed before it's born? [speaker002:] From the placenta [Cathy:] It gets all its nutrition, all its oxygen etcetera etcetera through the placenta from its mother's circulation and the mother has no problem whatsoever... in her body functions, right, otherwise she would be a mongrel, so the food is going straight into the baby, it's like being drip fed, there's no problem. When the baby is born what is the baby fed on? [speaker002:] Milk [Cathy:] Milk, after the baby is born the first time the baby actually has to digest its own food... it has to process the food that it takes in, what's in milk? What nutritional substance [speaker002:] Calcium Calcium [Cathy:] Calcium, protein [speaker002:] Iron [Cathy:] fat, right [speaker002:] Fat? [Cathy:] A lot of fat in milk... so there's protein in milk and in protein you will find this amino acid that the baby can't metabolize, can't use.... So it's only after several days that this will build up in the blood, does that make sense to you, do you realize now why tests is not done until six days? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] If you do it at birth you won't find anything wrong [speaker002:] cos it hasn't had a chance to [Cathy:] you do it after six days when the baby's been taking milk, you may well find something wrong. If the baby's fed on water or for some reason does not take food normally, you may not find the problem, but a few days after milk feed this substance will begin to rise and it can be protected... so the diagnosis is made by a test, does anybody know how the Guffbry test is done? [speaker002:] The heel [Cathy:] Stab the heel and they drip the blood out onto a piece of blotting paper and it dries and they send it to the laboratory and they punch it out and they examine it and they test it. Right, so diagnosis, Guffbry blood test at six days when milk feeding is established. The incidence is one in ten thousand so it's pretty rare... but untreated these children will grow up very seriously, mentally retarded, very, very poor quality of life and enormous stress on their families, when they could of been nearly normal, right... so the cause is one of these essential amino acids which is powdered protein, so what's the treatment? [speaker002:] Give them some [Cathy:] Eh? [speaker002:] Give it to them the amino acid [Cathy:] Give it to them, give them what? [speaker002:] Whatever it is that they're deficient in. [Cathy:] If this, if this erm essential amino acid is found in all protein what foods do we have that have got protein in? [speaker002:] Fish [Cathy:] Fish [speaker002:] Vegetables Dairy products Dairy products [Cathy:] Eggs, dairy produce, meat, pulses, right. If everything you give them that's got protein in and it's going to make their condition worse, what, what have you got to do?... [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Don't give Don't give them anything with protein in [Cathy:] Right, no protein [speaker002:] How they gonna grow? What do they do then? [Cathy:] How they gonna grow? [speaker002:] Yeah With great difficulty [Cathy:] We've got a problem haven't we? Eh? The aim of the treatment is to keep the blood levels of this substance venial alanine as low as we possible can. And the treatment is very simple, it's by diet and if these children are given appropriate diet they will grow up entirely normal... as intellectually able as anybody else. So the diet is to restrict the protein. There is a problem because this, this amino acid is essential and it's necessary for life, so you've actually got to have some of it, but if they have too much it will cause severe damage. So the diet is quite simple. When these babies are diagnosed there's a mad panic everywhere I can tell you, phone calls everywhere, people rushing round. Treatment has to be started as soon as possible, between two two e too much itl doolb eht peek ot si all?id [speaker002:] Mm Doesn't their immune system cope with it or [Cathy:] Sorry Sarah? [speaker002:] Doesn't their immune system cope with it or not? [Cathy:] Their immune system would be quite normal, right, if they're not given the protein, they're actually going to run into problems aren't they, but we have to overcome that by other, other ways. There's nothing wrong with their immune system, they're perfectly normal they just can't metabolize this one particular type of protein, so they have no milk, no fish, no meat, no cheese [speaker002:] Oh [Cathy:] very boring isn't it? They're allowed to have unlimited amounts of cornflour [speaker002:] Urgh [Cathy:] [LAUGHTER] vegetables [] jelly and they have specially prepared flour, pasta, biscuits, bread and this is all erm provided on prescription. What would happen is the prescription would be written and they'd either get it from the chemist who would constantly have a stock coming in or the hospital. [speaker002:] Jelly, urgh. [Cathy:] Very costly business all this, but it's infinitely preferable than having a severely mentally retarded child. [speaker002:] Do they survive for a long time? [Cathy:] Yes, they will grow up, we will go onto this, they grow up totally normally, and when they stop growing, when do we stop growing? [speaker002:] Twenty [Cathy:] Sixteen to eighteen years, they can actually have a normal diet and they can begin to eat all these wonderful things, okay? So this has to be continued until maturity is reached, sixteen or seventeen years. It seems to be that only during the period of very rapid growth. So they go on like this till they... get to late adolescence and then they can have a reasonably normal diet, having said that, they need constant monitoring... and they would also be very used to a diet with not very much of milk, egg, fish and cheese etcetera. They wouldn't be able to have pulses either, just put that in there. [speaker002:] Are, they healthy enough then? [Cathy:] Are they happy? [speaker002:] Healthy [Cathy:] Healthy, oh yes, perfectly healthy. It would be very carefully calculated and they'd be given the right amount of the proteins that they could use to grow, because in the first years of life there's very rapid growth and development isn't there? Body repair, and then they're given minute mediastinal amounts of the essential amino acid which would otherwise poison them, they're given really tiny amounts of it to keep them healthy.... Are there any questions about that? [speaker002:] Cathy, Cathy if they got some disease like, I dunno something like I dunno cancer or something like that, would they be more ill than normal? Susceptible yeah [Cathy:] Not necessarily, no. Just as ill as anybody else. In the past, in the past these children would be so severely mentally handicapped that they couldn't lead a normal life, but if, if your able to control this disease and bring them up intellectually normal so that they're like everybody else, they're going to have the same life expectation and hopes and aspirations as the best, that's the best of us, and what do women do when they get to the they have children don't they? Do you think that these women can actually have children? [speaker002:] Yeah, but they might pass onto what they had to the child. [Cathy:] That's a good question and that's quite interesting, yes, they can actually... if a girl has this and she becomes pregnant she has to go back on to her low protein diet while she's pregnant in case her baby is affected... right.... [speaker002:] What does that say? In female [Cathy:] Normal life, I'll read out to you, normal life is possible if diet during childhood is adhered to, in the female, if the female suffers, when she becomes pregnant the protein intake has to be monitored so as not to affect her developing baby. Now in the past, any child with P K U would of grown up mentally handicapped and would not of reproduced itself, wouldn't have children. Today although there's still a problem area it's not a straightforward pregnancy... today, the boys are able to father children and the girls are able to have children which means you're actually going to increase the incidence of P K U into the community isn't it?... Alright? Does that make sense to you? [speaker002:] Is it not erm, does the baby get all what that it should get from the mother? Is it hereditary Cathy? [Cathy:] Yes it is, and underneath here I've actually written down, you alright? P, P K U is definitely an, an inherited genetic disorder, do you understand these charts? Have you seen these charts before? [speaker002:] No No [Cathy:] Right, not very complicated, mum, dad, right... mum and dad have got a normal gene and a P K U gene, right, normal gene and P K U gene which means that they are carriers, they carry the disease but they don't actually have it [speaker002:] That makes sense [Cathy:] do you understand that? Right, who's got brown eyes here? [speaker002:] Yes [Cathy:] Who's got brown eyes but has got a mum or dad with blue eyes? [speaker002:] Got one blue one and one green one. [Cathy:] Right, okay, what we're saying here is that the mum and the dad are normal people, they don't have any problems, but they have got each of them have got abnormal gene and they're going to have a family, the first baby that they have gets two normal genes, one from each parent, you only get one gene from each parent, fuses so that makes two genes so the baby has two genes, right, the first baby gets two normal genes, right and that baby is normal, which is very clear... right, so here we have written... this baby is not P K U affected and is normal and doesn't actually carry the gene any more, does that make sense to you? Right, second baby has a P K U gene from his mum and a normal gene from his dad and he is not affected, but he is a P K U carrier, right, third baby gets a normal gene from his mum and a P K U gene from his dad and he's the same, or she's the same P K U carrier, but not affected, unfortunately the last baby gets a P K U gene from, from mum and a P K U gene from dad and this baby has got P K U and that is a simple, simple sort of exercise of how genetic disorders sometimes appear and sometimes don't... [speaker002:] Can I just write that yeah, you're not just gonna take that down? [Cathy:] Does that make sense to you? [speaker002:] Yeah [Cathy:] Or is that just... [speaker002:] Ask her to start again [LAUGHTER] [Cathy:] So having four children, one of them will have P K U, but all the others won't, they will be normal. [speaker002:] Yeah, but you can't say that because I know someone with six children and they've [Cathy:] You're right Eileen it, you could have really bad luck and have all four children with P K U or you could have really good luck and none of them have P K U, or you could have half and half, that's just an example, with each successive pregnancy you stand a one in four chance, those are all the possibilities, but like throwing the dice it comes up at random.... [speaker002:] Is that it then Cathy? [Cathy:] What do you mean is that it? [speaker002:] We have a break now [Cathy:] Oh fine, yes, then you go to is it isn't it, ten past, on Friday [speaker002:] Ten past? [Cathy:] I was going to do, I was going to do rhesus blood disease with you, but we'll do that on Friday. Shall I turn that off?

[Francis:] We'll wait two more minutes till class... turns up. [speaker004:] I don't think hers is coming, let's just face it! [Francis:] Can I ask you to do something for me today please? And that is when I, when I call the register... for the purposes of me assessments and things... I need to know your particular course tutor. So when you... say yes you're here could you call up with the name of your tutor so I can the tutor down so I [speaker001:] Our course tutor? [Francis:] er course tutor. You know, you let That's one of these problems that the modules system's actually created for itself. [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker001:] ! [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Did you show us? [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker004:] Because we haven't got a. [speaker006:] ? [speaker007:] You did! [speaker008:] Yes you did! the other day! [speaker007:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker001:] Who? Do you live close to your teacher? [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Francis:] I say... have you got the student number yet? [speaker001:] Yeah, it's with, I've got it. Nikki! Melanie's got one., she's lending me one cos I haven't [Francis:] You haven't got one? I'm scene five... there was line eight [speaker001:] Line eight. [Francis:] line eight. Okay? Is Nikki here? Cos I don't think. No, can I next week? Right, we'll do the register now please and if you could just erm tell me the... [speaker001:] Let's have a look! [Francis:] name of your course leader. [speaker007:] Do you want me to do the? Or can I just [Francis:] Sorry! [speaker007:] I've learnt Nikki's? [Francis:] Please? What's your name? [speaker007:] Claire.... Do you want me to do them? [Francis:] Oh yeah. [speaker007:] It's only... one or two. [Francis:] Oh yes we last time. Right, tell me Claire. [speaker001:] I didn't do it! I told them. I didn't do anything! [speaker007:] Nine two five [Francis:] Nine two five [speaker007:] O two [Francis:] O two [speaker007:] O nine six. [Francis:] O nine six. [speaker007:] That is the right one this time. [speaker001:] No, isn't it? [speaker007:] No! What are you gonna say, sorry? [speaker001:] What? [Francis:] Alright. Can we have a little bit of hush please! Are we ready? Here we go! Sarah. [speaker004:] Yeah! [Francis:] Course tutor? [speaker004:] Esther... erm Esther. [speaker001:] Who's that? [Francis:] Yes. [speaker001:] Esther. [speaker004:] Esther. [Francis:] Nikki? [speaker005:] Yeah I've got erm Esther. [speaker001:] Did you have to make that? [Francis:] Lisa? [speaker007:] Esther. [Francis:] Melanie? [speaker008:] Yes. Julie. [Francis:] Ginny? [speaker009:] Erm, yes, Julie. [Francis:] Julie.... Jonathan. [speaker006:] Julie. [speaker001:] I think I can sir. [Francis:] Sarah? [speaker001:] Yes! Julie. [Francis:] Julie.... Victoria? Nope! Nikki? Karen? [speaker006:] Look out there you could multiply them. [Francis:] Lisa. Judy. Rachael. [speaker010:] Yes, Julie. [Francis:] Sharon. [speaker003:] Yep! [Francis:] Could you tell me your course leader? [speaker003:] Pardon? [Francis:] Your course leader? [speaker003:] Oh, Suzanne. [Francis:] Suzanne? [speaker003:] , I think. [Francis:] ? [speaker003:] Yeah. [Francis:] is it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I think the course leader... is. [Francis:] Paula. [speaker004:] Yep! [Francis:] Course leader? [speaker004:] Suzanne. [Francis:] Zoe? [speaker005:] Yep! That'll be Esther. Sorry, it'll be Esther. [Francis:] Be Esther? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Francis:] What, for both of you? [speaker005:] Yeah. Science. [Francis:] Okay.... Right. Zoe, did we get that? [speaker005:] Yeah. [Francis:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Esther. [Francis:] Esther.... Claire? [speaker007:] Yes! [Francis:] Who? [speaker001:] Course leader. Esther! [speaker007:] Oh Esther! [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Nikki? [speaker006:] No! [speaker008:] Esther. [Francis:] Christine? [speaker001:] Yes!. [Francis:] Dianne? Christine? [speaker001:] We don't know. Hang on a minute. [Francis:] Amanda? And Steve? [speaker001:] No! [Francis:] No, right. Okay? [speaker001:] Pardon? [Francis:] Right! Right. Has anybody actually started... their assignment? [speaker001:] No. [Francis:] doing course work. [speaker001:] I haven't! We've got too much workload. , I got loads of observations here. [Francis:] I know you have. I know. Erm [speaker001:] I shan't be doing it? [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] to help you... for the ones that are going to do it... and I hope you are. I know you've got a lot of work to do. [speaker001:] Haven't got time! [Francis:] Erm... we'll have to go through some extra things in relation to it, today... so that you'll be able to [speaker001:] Ha? [Francis:] have some more information. [speaker001:] You give them in, they have be in next week! [Francis:] Well, yes is next week. [speaker001:] I don't think we've gotta make to get through next week. [Francis:] Well [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] do your best. If for any reason [speaker001:] Well! [Francis:] if for any reason it would help if you had an extra week [speaker001:] Yeah! [Francis:] and bring it [speaker001:] Good! [Francis:] on the last session. [speaker001:] Yeah that'll be alright. It's better. [Francis:] Good! [speaker001:] Everything, everything [Francis:] Also today [speaker001:] everything you do that day! Yeah, observations, that's good! [Francis:] Alright? So if it helps don't bring it back. Right! The one to one today... altogether now... room! [speaker001:] Room! What? [Francis:] The one to one today. [speaker001:] Oh! Oh good! Help me do it, just. [Francis:] Right! The one to one subject today is in fact the City College [speaker001:] The college. [Francis:] where you are. [speaker001:] And the audience is [Francis:] And... why you are here... do you like it? [speaker001:] No! No. [Francis:] Have you met interesting people since you've been here? [speaker001:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] What do you think of the facilities? Can I have some hush please! [speaker001:] John! [Francis:] What do you think of the facilities? [speaker001:] Pretty interesting! [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] What kind of social aspects are there at college? Are there enough for you? [speaker001:] No. [Francis:] And how would you improve them? Has it been a pleasant experience? And how does the college equal generally from your point of [speaker001:] A dream! [Francis:] view? Okay? That's the subject... have we got equal twos? Yeah, two, two, two, two. Yes we have. [speaker001:] Can't do that! [Francis:] Right! Don't matter who speaks first? So when your ready... off you go. Right, you two, ready? [speaker001:] [cough] [Francis:] Quite everybody! [speaker008:] This is Jane. [speaker001:] I'll start again! [Francis:] Right. Good! [speaker008:] This is Jane. Jane for two years... she's enjoyed the course so far... but she thinks [speaker009:] Yeah. [speaker008:] but she thinks there could be a lot of improvement around college... like... the mobiles... they could be... in better... condition. more like the tables and chairs and [speaker009:] And the curtains. [speaker008:] and the curtains we could have those in. And, the thing that she er... the subjects, there should be more... different variety of subject she said [speaker009:] Mm. [speaker008:] taken in college. But she's enjoyed it so far. And... with us, she's met loads of people and she goes out with them a lot... through college so [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] and she really likes, she does, she likes it so far. The only thing that she would change, she doesn't like all the work! [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] But erm... enjoyed it so far. [speaker009:] You said that! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You said [] [speaker008:] Stop it! [speaker001:] Yeah,! [Francis:] Okay. [speaker001:] Yes. [Francis:] ? This is Rach, she went to college... Ealing... it's a bit of a hole! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Some people are okay. Erm, hasn't really been an unpleasant... experience [speaker010:] Yes it has! [Francis:] Which has been. Okay. Next two. [speaker007:] Right, this is Melanie. She thinks the college is a complete hole! [speaker008:] Oh! [speaker007:] And... that it's very disorganised... and... you never know where you are... regarding rooms. And that erm... she thinks tutors don't converse enough... er... to find out what's going on. Erm... but she thinks... she's made [speaker008:] Aha. [speaker007:] lots of friends... and it's... a really nice friend! Me! [Francis:] Erm right, okay. Next two. [speaker004:] This is Sharon... and... she's doesn't mind college, it's a bit of a dump! [speaker003:] Oh! [speaker004:] She'd change it. Erm... by starting all over again... really. Put everything... organised. Erm [speaker003:] That's about it. [speaker004:] that's about it innit? [speaker003:] Mm mm. [Francis:] What would you do Sharon? [speaker003:] What would I do? [Francis:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I'd put all the rooms in... erm [speaker004:] order. [speaker003:] order. [LAUGHTER] That's it []! [Francis:] Order? [speaker003:] Yeah, cos they ain't in order are they? [Francis:] No. [speaker003:] Well that's what I'd do. [Francis:] Do you think it's actually the planners? Okay, next two. [speaker006:] This is Ginny, and she doesn't really like college. She thinks it's very disorganised. The facilities are okay. She's met lots of really, very interesting people. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Apart from one! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Thank you! Erm, an improvement to be made... in the mobiles. There's not much time for socialising... as it's a long day until five, plus work at home. And that's about it. [Francis:] Alright. Next two. [speaker007:] Oh erm... this is Zoe. Mm, and she's doing a B-Tech first diploma in. Erm, she thinks this college is alright and she enjoys coming. Erm, she thinks our course would be better if it was spread out over four days and not three. [speaker005:] Mm. [speaker007:] Erm, she's met some nice people. I mean, she's made a lot of friends. But she thinks... the college is disorganised but the facil, facilities are okay. [Francis:] Right. Next two. [speaker004:] This is Nikki. She's here to do a course care and. She doesn't like the course... they think the college is alright. Met quite a few people... and she uses the town centre for... erm... she thinks the, they could improve on the mobiles. [Francis:] Oh right. And the last two. [speaker001:] This is Dianne, she's doing an apex course for one year. She's met a lot of friends here... and... and likes to meet them in the canteen. Erm, she enjoys staff here and thinks they're friendly. And she doesn't think it needs improving. [Francis:] Right. And... change over and off you go. Go to your pair. Right. Off we go! [speaker010:] This is Lisa. [speaker001:] Shh! Shh! [speaker010:] She... first... in... Kent. She likes college. Would be better if... spread over four days because she... cannot [Francis:] Socialise. [speaker010:] socialise so much. Mobiles could be made... smar... ter... as there's no exams at the end. Could have... shorter hours cos of the.... [Francis:] Right. Fine. Next two. [speaker003:] This is Sarah. She had one year of and she thinks... erm... it's boring, bit of a dump!. Erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] she thinks college is alright... and she's met quite a few people... and she likes loads of. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] But... she thinks sho could be improved, but it's okay. And er... she thinks the er mobiles should definitely be removed! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] And improved. [Francis:] Right! Next two. [speaker009:] This is Nikki. She thinks that the college is alright but it's a bit of hole! And the facilities are alright. And it's... totally disorganised! She's met loads of really nice people and doesn't know where to put her eyes while the blokes walk past! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] And, the canteen could be larger... and erm [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker009:] could be a wider range of. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Francis:] Right. Next two. [speaker009:] This is Jonathan, he's a, he likes the [Francis:] Quite, the rest of you please! [speaker009:] he likes the college most days. The organisation is getting better. The facilities are quite good. I'd like to see... a bar. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] More... more canteen facilities, all that queuing for food! Lots of people who meet him... who he likes and he goes out with them. [speaker006:] That's not nice! [speaker009:] You said that! [LAUGHTER]...... they're to put up more... was it? [speaker006:] Trees. [speaker009:] More trees. Better classrooms. Fag selling machines. A bigger car park for John's little metro! m [LAUGHTER] Better computer facilities. [Francis:] Right. I agree with the last one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Next two. [speaker001:] This is Paula and she don't mind college. Made a lot of friends. Erm... it's very organised. Can't se, that's about it. [Francis:] Okay. Next two. [speaker001:] This is Sarah. Erm... she doesn't think the college is particularly special. Er... it doesn't look very nice. [speaker006:] His influence. [speaker001:] Erm... she said, she didn't like the course too well and . And erm... [LAUGHTER]... er... good place to make friends but at any college you make friends and from the Exea, Exeter [LAUGHTER] College [] where she... first knew me, so [LAUGHTER] that's about the size of things. [Francis:] Right. Are you dedicated to terms? [speaker001:] Am I? [Francis:] Yes. [speaker001:] No. [Francis:] Because shouldn't be! Okay, next two. [speaker008:] This is Lisa. And she thinks the college is a disorganised. Erm... the course is too jam-packed and she doesn't enjoy it.. Erm... she could make plenty of improvements, make it look nicer, more organised... better rooms... the people are okay, but that's the only good thing about college is meeting people. The rooms are badly heated, the facilities are okay and... and... it's been, it's been an okay experience so far. [Francis:] Right. [speaker008:] Erm.... [Francis:] And the last two. [speaker005:] This is Claire. She loves the college! She's on the B tech first diploma on caring for a year, then she's gonna go to a two year national. Erm, she thinks it's quite a good course, she likes the tutors and, she likes going out with friends who, who she meets at college. She has a day off a week. [speaker007:] Aha. [speaker005:] Erm... she [speaker007:] If I'm lucky! [speaker005:] a bit bad! [LAUGHTER] No []! But she erm thinks that the way it should be only four days... rather than three. And [speaker001:] Ha! Lucky! [speaker005:] And it could be improved. The college could be improved a lot. [Francis:] Right! I've all those feelings. Seems to be all about stop and go! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Right! Let's now talk for a little while about the assignment. Maybe, give you... extra help, extra information. We'll hand out some paper... this is not to make one of these long lists or anything, it's basically to help you to make some notes if you wi, require to do so. [speaker001:] Right. Yeah. [Francis:] Would you like to... hand that for me round Claire? [speaker003:] Yes. [Francis:] Thanks. I want to go through the process... of... what we really have to do and consider... to build up the story. Not just the basic elements but let's... put one or two things down on paper for yourselves. Now, as you know... i when you [speaker001:] Oh yeah! [Francis:] when you paint a picture... when you paint a picture you put all the information in the picture that you need... to present the idea to other people.... The same thing applies... when you build up a story... in words. You have to build that picture... in the mind. Now, if you want to make any notes read them through now, it may be helpful to you if you think can just remember then that's okay by me. But... I always find, and I think you probably do, if you write things down you remember them easier and far longer. Right! Now what I said to you approximately two minutes to the side... that's fine... if you want to know how many words, who kno, who knows roughly how many words in two minutes? Right! I'll explain to you. It is based on... three words per second... as the spoken word. [speaker001:] Oh! [speaker006:] Oh yeah. [Francis:] Alright? That is the spoken word. And three words per second is... the way that television presenters make er, their scripts... for presenting to the public... in a news bulletin. So... for a minute you have obviously got a hundred and eighty words... and for two minutes it's double that amount. [speaker001:] I see. [Francis:] Okay? [speaker001:] Mm. [Francis:] Now I'm not going to be pedantic and say... anything under two minutes is unacceptable... two minutes is the guideline just to give you an idea of what... would be a good idea. Right? Okay. Now... we're talking about whether it can be a story... about human beings... or animals. It can either be... looking at the animal as an observer, in which case... you can talk about the animals and what they are doing. Or, you can take the point of view of the animal and have the animal speaking in a human tongue. The same as... I did mention last week,. A simple structure... for the plot... interest... and also, or possibly it's quite nice to include a little bit of humour. So straight forward, there's something to create a smile about. Now, apart from a colourful er, magic of the story line... you also need a colourful character... or characters. To build up a character... you need to know something about that character, what sort of person that character is... or what sort of animal that character is. Is it happy? Is it unhappy? Erm... you need to set the scene. Now, by setting the scene... we'll take an example, just a straight course statement, alright? A girl goes for a walk. That is... just a few words... in your mind you can see a person walking along. As a story line it's not all because it doesn't say anything about the girl, it doesn't say where she's going, where she's come from... and what's happening on the way. So, that's the starting point. That's the basis of the structure. From that point on we need to give a name to that person... we need to give the environment, that is to say is she inside? Is she outside? Is she walking in a park? It is good to know, if it's outside, what the weather conditions are like. Is it sunny? Is it cloudy? Are the skies blue? Or is it about to snow? It'll be interesting to know where the girl was going to. And perhaps where she'd just come from. Is she doing anything apart from just walking along? Now, you start that building that information into the first statement of the girl goes for a walk. You then begin to build up a story line, a structure... and something which could be called interesting... and could be the start of interesting idea. So, using that idea, using that information [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah, that's. [Francis:] would someone like to tell me how they would actually... incorporate... that, that additional information into the first statement? Who's got an idea? Who can tell me? I'll start you off if you like. Right. First of all, someone give me a name for the girl. [speaker006:] Mildred. [Francis:] Mildred. Mildred it is! Mildred has hereby been born!... One day, Mildred was walking along in the park... it was very, very hot... and she was very, very tired! Okay. We've established certain things there. There are other things we can now add to that. Who will now add to other elements to that story? It's hot. She's tired. She's in a park. Her name's Mildred. [speaker001:] The bird's were singing and the [Francis:] Right. [speaker001:] . [Francis:] Yes. That, that sort of thing's important... because it gives, it gives, it then builds up original ideas and part of the story as well. Right! More things please? [speaker001:] Mhm. The park was crowded. [Francis:] Right. The park was crowded. What else? [speaker001:] And say what the people were doing, like you know, there's people... playing. ? [Francis:] And, the story line could go... and over the horizon she could see all sorts of very colourful kites flying in the sky... that other children were flying in that lovely afternoon! Right. What other things could... what could she be doing... apart from just walking? What does something that one does sometimes if you're... contented, maybe happy? [speaker006:] Hum? [Francis:] Hum. Right. Hum or whistle. [speaker001:] A whistle? [Francis:] Okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] So she was quietly humming to herself. She seems quite a contented li er, girl, lady. [speaker001:] Have to stop and sit down because she's tired. [Francis:] Yes! She could stop and sit down. [speaker001:] an ice cream. Get a drink? She was [Francis:] Right. In the distant she heard... the sound of an ice cream van... with it's... with it's jingly little tune playing... and she thought... oh, I'd love an ice cream! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Yeah, I, you may laugh but you see if you're writing stories for a, for a young child... then you've got to be explicit, you've got to be colourful... and you've got to talk in a basic language that that child will talk that... like that at that age. So, one has to take that on board. So, that is the idea of building up the structure for a story of that, of that, of that kind. Now, if you can... once again, for those who are going to actually do this assignment for me, I hope you are! Base the idea and structure building on that... and then increase the incidentals as you go along. The incidentals being part of... if you want to incorporate some sort of... plot sequence or some sort of intrigue... erm... that's entirely up to you. Okay? The other thing that we mentioned last week as well is the moral... message... erm... be it, safety factors... to deal with, with children. [speaker001:] Do it as well. [Francis:] I mean you know how a lot of, a lot of these stories end, and the moral of the story is, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera!... Okay?... The people here, do you actually like er, telling kid's stories? [speaker001:] Yeah! Yeah. [speaker006:] Yeah. [Francis:] It's great innit? [speaker001:] Mm. [Francis:] Cos you get a lot of feedback and th and there's a lot of excitement. Do you have a chance to do it much here? [speaker001:] Yeah, a lot. Cos Yeah. our, our are expected to do it. [Francis:] Yeah. [speaker001:] To like of children. [Francis:] Good! And th the stories that you read are all, all for children are they ones that you're reading from a book, or are they ones that you're inventing at the time, or what? [speaker001:] Well most are from a book. A book. [Francis:] From a book. [speaker001:] Normally. [Francis:] Normally. Right! So, what you need to do is, is, is expand on what you've read... and then start to invent things yourself. You will not always have a book available to you. But it's nice to be able to invent the stories as well. It's interesting for you apart from the child. Right! We are going to do some miming this afternoon. [speaker001:] Oh! [Francis:] Which is er... going to excite our friend here! Trouble is [LAUGHTER] it's a []! [speaker001:] Yes. [Francis:] Right! So split up into... four groups... as wi with... we did once before. [speaker006:] It goes er [speaker001:] [sighing] Wah []! Oh! [Francis:] Sixteen of us... so it's four in a group. [speaker001:] Are we playing the miming? [Francis:] Are you happy to take groups in that direction... four, four, four, four? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Francis:] Yeah? Okay? So... the first four there [speaker001:] Watch what we do. [Francis:] okay? They'll be group A. [speaker001:] Oh no! That's us. [Francis:] The second group... there, including yourself... will be group B. [speaker001:] See this Yeah I know. [Francis:] The four in the corner... including Zoe [speaker005:] Ha! [Francis:] will be group... C. And the last four up this end will be group D. [speaker001:] That's fi... that's five in that. Five. [Francis:] So... five what? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Don't know! [Francis:] What is five? Tell me. [speaker001:] ... is there five people? [Francis:] One, two three, four, five. That's right! One, two [speaker001:] Your [Francis:] three, four. That's one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, five. Alright? Use a five, yeah that is, you're right! [speaker001:] I'm going! What the hell are you doing like that? [Francis:] Just thinking of the role plays. [speaker001:] She'll be death of me! Yeah. What? That. [Francis:] One, two, three, four, five. [speaker001:] You will have used them all. . [LAUGHTER] Just one over. [Francis:] Yeah, I'm putting the extra one in the appropriate place for the role play that's all. [speaker001:] . [Francis:] You keep, you keep a volunteer. [speaker001:] Right? [Francis:] Okay? Right. Before we do the role plays I'd like to discuss them to sort of, so we know exactly what we're gonna do. The subject for group A, will be... purchasing an outfit against... your partner's wishes. [speaker001:] . Oh yeah, [LAUGHTER] don't look []! [Francis:] Purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes! And this, at least, mime. But before we start we'll talk about controlling. [speaker001:] Oh I've done this before! Oh yeah. [Francis:] Group B [speaker001:] teacher now. I've done this. [Francis:] Group B... is something totally different. Erecting and decorating an Xmas tree, a Christmas tree... and putting the presents on. We'll discuss that. Did you hear that group B? [speaker001:] Yes. Yes! [Francis:] Right! Group C... different once again dressing in a dressing room for a play or any kind of stage production. I will not tell you what the production will be [speaker001:] We got... we got a good then! [Francis:] but doing it in mime [speaker001:] Yeah I know. [Francis:] will be interesting. And group D, and the reason I've allowed the extra person in your group is... Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I know there are not eight of you! [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] It doesn't matter. [speaker001:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] It doesn't actually matter that much if you leave out Sno Snow White. The idea of the seven dwarfs thing is... you've got the seven dwarfs and I'm sure you can sort out who they are. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] And what I will do is, they are all... presents... on Christmas day. [speaker001:] Oh! Your opening presents on Christmas. [LAUGHTER] Oh! [Francis:] Right? Okay, let's go back to the beginning. prepare you now.... Body language... is the most important thing in mime. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Now, what's a typical, who can tell me what the typical body language is... that you would prese present or portray if you said... I don't know? What would you, what would your body language... be? [speaker001:] Shrug the shoulders. The shoulders. [Francis:] A shrug. Yeah. Right, okay.... Group A, purchasing... an outfit against your partner's wishes. Now, as near as possible you can do that.... You can go into a shop and start purchasing this item... not knowing your partner is there... and the partner suddenly appears and then... the confrontation starts... bearing in mind you are not speaking. This is mime. Now, what I would like [speaker006:] That's very good! [Francis:] you all to try and do this time is to avoid if you can mouthing words, mouthing dialogue. Mouthing dialogue in mime is an easy get out! Because you just stand there and hope someone's gonna read your lips so you don't have to do anything with your body! But this time can you concentrate more on what you are going to do with your body... to actually tell people... via your body... or give them a good idea of exactly what you mean [speaker001:] Yes. [Francis:] to say. [speaker001:] Yes. [Francis:] Try and remember what you had originally on your... on your gesture list. Try and remember what certain things mean. What nervousness means... or what it can mean. And also... what things like, folding your arms means. [speaker001:] Right. [Francis:] What talking behind your mouth means. Looking up and looking down. If you're not sure of anything... and you haven't got your things here... please ask. [speaker001:] Oh could I have one? [Francis:] Mm? You wa you wanna have a look? I haven't got the for a moment so you'll have to use this one. [speaker001:] Thank you! [Francis:] Right, Group B [speaker001:] Have you? [Francis:] erecting and decorating a Christmas tree... and putting on the presents. Now, I would suggest you start that... physically bringing in the Christmas tree. Let's say it's a fairly tallish one. If it's a fairly tall one then obviously on it's side it's gonna long. Try and think, work out how heavy that tree would be... and how difficult it is actually to get a large tree into... a lounge, living room, dining room, call it what you will! [speaker001:] Call it a! [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Erm... let's say that the family... are involved in decorating the tree. Now, when you're putting on the presents... there are little, there are other areas within putting on the presents that you can possibly include... like... a present's going on the tree, you happen to see your name in it... on the tag, right? And what does one do... one picks it up... start rattling it like the devil to find a... work out... what it is! Now, these are basic ideas, I want you to add to these ideas. Right! Group C... dressing for a play or any kind of stage production in the dressing room. You're all in the same dressing room. Now it's quite important... to be very specific about how you do this because... it's not just a matter of putting on clothes [speaker001:] Oh! [Francis:] I mean for one production you may need a wig... another production you won't. I mean, if you can imagine what the process of a dame in pantomime goes through... to get all that gear on... then that is the sort of thing you've got to try and do in mime. A few weeks ago... we were talking about lifting objects and the size of the objects. If you lifted a large laundry basket... think about the size of a laundry basket, think about where the hands would go... then down, lift it up... and if it's full of laundry then it's obviously going to be heavier than if it was empty... but that's the size. The difference being, that if it's a saucepan then obviously a saucepan you lift it with one hand... and... if it's full of hot water or something then you'd have to be careful. Think about the, think about the sizes, think about the weights and think about what it's gotta be used for... and that... is really got to relate to the dressing in the dressing room because there's all sorts of things there, there's jewellery, there's hats. Right! Going on to group D... the dwarfs, the seven dwarfs. Happy, Grumpy [speaker001:] Dopey. [Francis:] Dopey. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Sleepy. [speaker001:] Sneezy. Ah. [Francis:] And then take which, which one [speaker001:] And there's isn't there? [Francis:] you want to use. Now... and I said... alright! Opening presents on Christmas morning... it's not just a case of opening presents is it? I mean, one opened a present, yes but but... are you happy when you're opening it? Are you hapen ha are you happy when you see what it is? Or is it one of those presents which [speaker001:] [yawn] [LAUGHTER] Take the []! [Francis:] and you can't think of an anything that you would like less! [speaker006:] Handkerchiefs! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] For the, for the, for the tenth year running Jonathan has just got a pack of white handkerchiefs! [speaker001:] Yes! [speaker006:] What have I got this year though? [speaker001:] Not white, just green! [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Right! So erm one can in interpret... one's attitude in relation to opening the presents... in different ways. [speaker001:] Their faces. [Francis:] Did you do it happily? [speaker001:] What do you do [Francis:] I mean you must still be half asleep in which it could be... himself. Okay? Now, this time... we'll think about it [speaker001:] Oh! [Francis:] carefully before we do it. So can you get in your groups now to discuss exactly what you're going to do, how you're going to do it. [speaker001:] Very, sort of slow. Pardon? [Francis:] Don't just take the basic subject today. Think of... really think hard about you're going to do. Include something in it which... no one else is expecting. Quite difficult wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Francis:] If you take a facial expression... anyone of the seven dwarfs... and you want to try and give a dramatic idea how to present that face or that attitude... to do it just by standing there without curtains opening on you and all that sort of thing it's quite diffi, it's quite difficult! But, there are various ways you can do that. If there was a long line of people... number of seven for the seven dwarfs... and they were all standing there side by side and they had their... hands over there face like so... and the... altogether, at the same time, in unison... they parted the hand... to reveal... the facial expression... that... is more of a dramatic experience to people looking... than just by standing here. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] Alright? So that you are actually creating the drama for the people that are looking at you. Okay?... Let's go on to another subject which is... another subject we'll be dealing with today. And I'd like you, if you haven't destroyed them totally, to use the little piece of paper I gave to you all. [speaker001:] Oh! [LAUGHTER] I didn't, didn't have one! [Francis:] If you would like another piece [speaker001:] It's alright, I've just looked at mine. [Francis:] Sorry? [speaker001:] whatever it is that changed. I mean, you can't do stories one side can I? [Francis:] I, no, no, no, I didn't need it back. It's for your benefits. I'd like you to write things down because I think you're gonna remember them, he says, hopefully! [speaker001:] I've lost it! [Francis:] If that happens to be on a piece, piece of paper and you want to keep your it might be a benefit to you later on. [speaker001:] It's there, look. [Francis:] Right! We'll end up today by talking a bit about children's role play. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Francis:] Now, in the past, so far, this term we've covered areas such as the bus role play, which I suspect you remember... the shop role play... of which I'm sure you remember. [speaker001:] Mm. [Francis:] Now, have you, you, you obviously heard of the home corner, yep? [speaker001:] Yes. [Francis:] Right you know what a home [speaker001:] Yes, very well! [Francis:] corner is. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] I'm sure you do. What we want to do now, can we stand on these ideas and put down on paper... some more ideas of what circumstances and situations you could use... for children's role play. Areas which would benefit the child... possibly educate the child in a different direction, a different way. Ways of explaining to a child... or showing things for a child, or showing a child how to do things. [speaker001:] Such as? [Francis:] Such as buying an ice cream.... has a great education value for children, it helps to form their personality and character, it allows them to exercise their imagination and explore the world of fantasy. When a child plays a game and assumes another character it enters into a form of role play which in itself is a dramatic experience! This is all part of the learning process. With guidance and the use of role play children can begin to experience many of life's situations. Now, incorporate in your play, there is the, there are the benefits of dressing up... using... clothes that may well be available or using... er, specific... outfits as well. Dressing up helps to, helps children to find a simple way of changing role and to establish their own identities. Dressing up can help a shy sh a shy child to lose his in inhibi in inhibitions. [speaker009:] Inhibitions. [Francis:] Thank you so much Jane! What a child is by anxiety to play out his fears. Wearing specific copies of uniforms also gives children the opportunity to try out occupational roles, such as astronauts, or nurses... as well as fancy roles like robots, or witches. Right! So if you can start writing your list of, you have examples already... of other areas that you think could be... interesting, useful... educational, helpful to a child... either as in a group... or maybe it's two children! [speaker001:] In role play? [Francis:] For role play. [speaker001:] Yes, it's a role play? [Francis:] Yep! Role play subject. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [singing] Mm mm mm, mm [Francis:] Sarah? [speaker001:] mm mm mm []. [Francis:] What have you got? [speaker004:] Erm [speaker001:] Good! You've got on your list. [speaker004:] Yeah [speaker001:] [yawn] [speaker004:] er... I've probably got everyone else's, I've got car racing. [Francis:] What sorry, sorry? [speaker004:] Car racing. When somebody [Francis:] Car racing? [speaker004:] wants to. [Francis:] What, as a racing driver you mean? [speaker004:] Yeah, that's [Francis:] Yeah. [speaker004:] right. Erm, a farmer. [speaker001:] I know what I've got. nursing and doctor. [Francis:] What have you got? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Francis:] Mm? Nurse and doctor. Yes. [speaker001:] Cos ac, they like that. [Francis:] Anything to do with the hospital? [speaker001:] Yeah. Doctors one of course. Yeah, doctors one [Francis:] Is a very good idea! [speaker001:] Dianna's here for you. [Francis:] Dianna's here. Yes of [speaker001:] Can I have a word with you please? [Francis:] You may indeed! We're about to finish so please come in. [speaker001:] close the door. Yeah in a minute. How long will you be? Right, we'll wait outside. Alright. [Francis:] Couple of minutes.... The benefits of a role play for children particularly are [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Francis:] or rather is a play, the role play results in a child getting used to experiences a, experiencing a situation which is gonna be helpful to that child. And often the situation is one that [speaker006:] Cheers! [speaker001:] Ha! Thank you! That's alright. [Francis:] Your very polite aren't you? [speaker001:] ! [Francis:] Right! Next week next week once, before you go! Before you go! Next week if you'd like to bring some more music tapes... for next week. Okay?

[Ian:] uses... now the reason we need, not just nuclear power of course, but all other sources of energy er is erm illustrated by these next couple of slides erm I'm sure you've seen data like this before... growth in the world's population over the last er few hundred years erm... over the middle ages the er world's population was fairly stable, although the birth rate was high er the death rate was equally high because of things like cholera and bubonic plague and smallpox and other things that used to kill people off in large numbers. But mainly these diseases have now been er controlled if not completely eradicated and as a result the world's population is er is likely to zoom up as you can see... right off the top end of the, of the graph... and we're expecting something like eight billion people er and, and still rising at the end of the, of the century and it'll be some time way into the next century before the world's population actually starts to er er to level out. So more people means more resources, in the context of today's talk, more energy resources so we're particularly keen to find all the energy resources that we er that we can. And to show you what the situation is er the world's energy demand is very likely i i i is almost certain to increase er because of development in the world and also because of the growing population... er that arrow is some sort of guess as to how the world er the demand for energy worldwide is likely to increase... when you set that against the curves at the bottom which show the likely projections for oil and natural gas... as you can see as we get into the next century those er fossil fuels, which we've been using with gay abandon for many decades, will start to into er decline. Now I, I often gives in, in schools, and I particularly show that slide because as you can see it goes up to the year twenty forty... er now I shall be a hundred and four in the year twenty forty... I won't ask you to calculate what age you will be in the year twenty forty... it might be quite large... erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] some of you are a lot younger than me of course, it could be a lot smaller, but er er showing this to teenagers, if you work out what age a teenager will be in the year twenty forty, they'll be about er in their mid sixties... so this period of time, basically, is the time over which our present... er generation of schoolchildren will have their adult life. So these basically are the problems that they're gonna have to er... er have to face.... Now uranium erm is, is er a non-renewable resource like oi oil and coal and gas but there's an awful lot of it in the world and this is erm... the reserves of the energy they can give are compared to the remaining reserves of coal or and er gas, you can see it's one of the largest energy resources on... on earth. To take advantage of that large amount of fuel, we have to develop what are there is the fast reactors, and this is Britain's fast reactor... a fast reactor erm uses energy... erm about sixty time uses uranium about sixty times more efficiently than the present type of reactors... not sixty percent but sixty times... so it obviously has tremendous implications for uranium resources. Erm so quite clearly this is the erm er reactor of the future. Er you must therefore ask yourselves the question, why is it therefore the government has decided to er re re remove the funding er for this particular project... erm never mind they said er we now know how to build fast reactors, look there's one we've already built, a prototype... we have th the, the er the th the blueprints, the drawings for a full scale version... and when we actually need the fast reactors in say the year two thousand and ten or thereabouts, we'll just get the blueprints out of the filing cabinet and we will build them. Er I'm sure they didn't, I'm sure he didn't believe it either. What is likely to happen of course is that er in the year two thousand and ten when we do need these fast reactors, we'll be buying in French or Japanese technology... as we've done in many other areas which is all rather... sad really. Erm the erm th this shows Britain's stockpile of, of uranium... this is actually depleted uranium which can be used in the fast reactor but can't be used in the present type of er thermal reactors... but what you see there is virtually the er all of it,th it's, it's erm stored at a place called erm er Capenhurst in, in Cheshire on the Wirral... erm and erm there's a few jars off the edge as you can see but basically that's er that's it and what you see there, in energy terms, represents erm the equivalent of our entire coal reserves. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be mined, we don't have to import it from any Arabs, it's ours, we own it and it gives us that amount of energy but only if we develop the fast er reactors. If we don't develop the fast reactors, that just becomes rather embarrassing waste and has to be disposed of.... Now of course there are other er forms of erm er o o of fuel... er there's coal erm and we have large stocks of coal in this country... er enough for about two hundred er years... er again you ask the question well why therefore is the, is the government coal cl cl closing down er a large part of the coal industry? Erm a again the answer is it's cheaper to import it from er overseas. Erm one wonders whether that's erm... wise in the long term because once you've closed down a coal mine of course you can't er re-open it very easily because the roof falls in and it floods... and effectively you have to start again from er from scratch.... Erm probl er coal does have its problems of course erm... er it does produce an awful lot of pollution. We have a large coalfired power station near where I live er in Oxfordshire er at a place called Didcot, which is also a railway er junction... erm roughly halfway between Harwell where we, we invented er nuclear power... and, and Culham where they're working on nuclear fusion which is a different kind of nuclear power, roughly halfway between... the government decides to build the largest coalfired power station in the country. Erm of which there, of course is erm impeccable logic... er you might think well there aren't any coal mines in Didcot, which of course there aren't, but Didcot is actually a railway junction as I mentioned and in fact it's on the main line from the midlands erm and they can get coal in from the Midlands very easily... er it's on the main line er also from South Wales and they're getting co getting coal from, from er South Wales... in the days when they built Didcot power station they still had coal m m mines in South Wales, so this was an obvious place to locate a large coalfired power station. Erm the fact it's now burning Australian coal does tend to undermine the arguments er but nevertheless it does have a good rail connection down to the coast, the p ports on the south coast where it can, can er take the stuff in from the... er from the ports. Erm well coal er is quite a dirty fuel when it's burnt erm... D Didcot power station... er this is the sort of pollution you get from Didcot power station, it doesn't give the time on there... er you might be surprised to, to realize that's actually er per day... erm that's the amount of pollution you get per day from a large coalfired power station. The C O two comb erm erm contributes to er the greenhouse effect... er the S O two, sulphur dioxide, contributes to acid rain... er the dust and the ash are basically just er... an inconvenience.... Erm another s source of energy we've been considering is th is, is a tidal barrage across the Severn [clears throat] and erm you probably recognize this as a, as a map of the Severn Estuary... er er and if you didn't it says the Severn Estuary in big letters er across the er the bottom [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] er the proposal is to put er a barrage roughly across there erm I've shown... er linking those two erm... islands in the middle, Flat Holm and Steep Holm. That er, if built, would provide us with about ten percent of our electricity at current rates of use. Erm it's er would take about er twenty years to build, would cost about ten billion pounds, but of course once you've built it, er the running costs are very er small. We ha we have to look at the environmental consequences, you stick a barrage that size across erm a large er river system... you've got to ask what happens upstream erm and of course Bristol for example is a port, how to get the ships in and out is another problem... but er these are being considered at the moment and there's quite a lot of mo money going into, into studies but no commitment yet as to actually, to actually build it. Of course that's the only big site that we've got, so once you've built that one well that's more or less er it. The other source of energy we've been considering is wind power. Erm... er there's various parts of the country where this is er suitable, this is a windmill in er Orkney... a place called Bungay Hill... er that provides electricity for most of the, the main island. Erm but of course to provide erm electricity on a larger scale, you can't put these things too close together, you need about... er a thousand of those to, for example, to replace say a power station like Didcot... and er and a thousand of these windmills would o occupy about three hundred square miles, and this is what three hundred square miles looks like... er it's, it's the major part of, of central... L you wouldn't put them in central London of course but erm... gives you some idea of the sort of area you'd have to devote to wind farms if you were to use this particular type of er of energy. Erm so there are these other forms of energy as well, erm nuclear power er will take its place along those, alongside those I'm sure in the future... er it does have its problems, the main problem is the possibility of er major accidents and many of you will remember the accident at Chernobyl in the, what was then the Soviet Union, it's now the, now the er Ukraine... erm when in nineteen eighty six the, there was a very serious accident... and the er roof er blew off and er radioactivity was pumped into the er atmosphere. Very serious accident indeed... er two people died from falling masonry... er in fact one of the bodies is still in there somewhere, they haven't found him yet... and twenty nine people died from large doses of radiation... erm erm and others will die prematurely because of the large radiation dose that they got, mainly the emergency workers who went in to erm... sort out the er er the problem. Erm... what's happened to that?... There we go. Ra radiation is potentially harmful, er particularly in large doses. Erm... this shows the er affect of radiation against er dose... er ten thousand units is, is er fairly le is, is lethal... you'd die within minutes if you got that sort of dose of radiation. Down at about a thousand units erm [clears throat] you er b between ten thousand and a thousand units... er you'd suffer the symptoms of radiation sickness... erm your hair would drop out and your teeth would drop out and you'd vomit and... your skin would turn a funny shade of green and... and you'd be very ill erm but you, you'd probably recover... er you might not but you, you, I mean people have actually had those sort of doses of radiation... and have actually recovered er from it. So there's, there's a chance you'd recover in that, in that range, though you will be ill for a while. Lower than a thousand units er there's no immediate affect... and one's tempted to think that erm... the er er it's, that radiation's therefore safe below that level and that's not strictly true because there is the possibility of a long term affect... it can actually cause cancer in the long term... but with very low er ra- er levels of risk cos you can see down at the levels where people actually get radiation doses... er like erm members of the public or erm from the actual background of people who work in nuclear power stations, you're talking about very low levels but the levels, those sort of levels... I mean one in three hundred thousand, one in three million, that sort of thing... you can't actually measure in real er populations because there er any effects that there are can be swamped by other ways of getting er of getting cancer.... Er in fact most of the radiation we get in fact is not from nuclear power, it's from erm... man made sourc it's from, from natural sources... eighty seven percent of the population as an average comes from our natural environment... a lot comes from radon gas erm... a small amount of radioactivity in our food... erm we were discussing at er er lunch in, in fact the... benefits of, of eating er low sodium salt... salt is meant to be bad for you so the health er er... er freaks say... and it's the sodium, therefore you should buy low sodium salt which is calcium chloride rather than sodium chloride... what they forget to tell you of course is that potassium er sorry it's, it's potassium chloride rather than er than s than sodium chloride, what they forget, forget to tell you of course is that potassium is slightly radioactive... it contains erm a small amount of, of a naturally occurring radioactive potassium... so you get a small dose of radiation er to compensate for the fact you aren't eating any sodium. Erm... [clears throat] a small amount of, of erm... radiation from cosmic rays from outer space and from building materials and so on er eighty seven percent in total of average. Of the man made er sources of radiation, twelve of the thirteen percent you see are from medical uses... from X-rays, that kind of thing, and only one percent comes from all the others, of which point one percent comes from nuclear er installations. So erm... er erm by n by no means er could you call one... point one percent of something that can vary by factors of three in, in, in, in Cornwall the natural radiation is three times what it is in, in Essex... erm... er but they seem to be quite er healthy nevertheless in Cornwall... erm so point one percent is er varies by factors of three, obviously can't be considered to be erm er a major political er a major erm er environmental hazard. The problem of course arises, as I've said earlier, when things go wrong, things like Chernobyl accidents and so on so we've gotta use nuclear power obviously... we have to erm er make sure that we... don't have accidents like that. I'll just finish with, with a er er er a small anecdote to show erm the relative affects of radiation compared to other things. You, you, you've all hea heard of Marie Curie, famous erm scientist who pioneered a lot of the work on radioactivity in the early part of this century and the last part of the last century... she in fact was Polish, lived in, in, in Paris, married a French man called Pierre... er hence she's known as Marie Curie... well Pierre Curie was also a scientist and he was er baffled by the affect that,th the fact that there didn't seem to be any biological affects... er certainly the doses of radiation that, that they were, they were getting... they'd handled tons and tons of pitchblende, that's radioactive ore... they extracted several grammes of radium from it, they'd been handling stuff for years... they weren't ill, they obviously hadn't died and so on. So he, he thought he'd do an experiment, er he took a small piece of radium which he'd extracted... from several tons of pitchblende... and he put this bit of radium on his forearm... and, and put a bandage round to hold it in place and left it there for a week and said right I'll see what happens. So after a week he takes away the bandage, removes the bit of radium, sure enough there's a bright red radiation burn on his forearm but apart from that he feels fine, he doesn't feel ill, he obviously hasn't died, er so he said well I'll leave that for a few weeks and monitor my, my health and see if there's any long term affects from this exposure to, to radiation. But we shall never know the results of that experiment because the very next week he was run over and killed by a bus erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] which all goes to show that yes, you know in large doses radiation can be harmful to you, er but in the sort, the sort of levels that you and I are likely to come across... er almost certainly something else will get you first. Thank you gentlemen. [speaker002:] [applause] Gentlemen I'm sure there must be questions. Would anybody like to start the ball?... Don [Don:] Yes... a after Chernobyl there was a certain amount of alarm about erm about hill farms, Cumberland and so forth and it's all gone quiet now, can you update us on what exactly [Ian:] Yeah. Yes what er happened,th there was erm erm er the radioactive cloud that came up was swept by the winds around the world and in fact as it went over the United Kingdom... er it happened to rain on er Cumbria and North Wales so some of this radioactivity was brought down, it settled on the grass and got into the soil. Erm and the hill er farmers who graze their sheep up there... there are very strict regulations about the amount of radioactivity that you're allowed to have in any meat and in, in, in sheep it's erm... er er about ten thousand units er per kilogramme. That's the, the, the internationally approved level. Well in Britain we decided we'd be on the safe side, we'll reduce that to a thousand... we put another factor of ten in... and what's more i if one sheep in, in a whole flock is more than a thousand units, er then we will condemn the whole flock. So it's pretty, it's pretty er er and in fact some of these, these flocks who were grazing at the er w where just above that er that limit... only just but just slightly above it... so, so... but in fact i if the farmers er grazed their sheep er further down the hillside... er then in fact the, the er er the level dropped very rapidly and the sheep were then... erm so it was a, a commercial decision as to whether to keep your sheep up on the hills to, to eat radioactive grass and get the compensation... or to graze your sheep further down and actually the, the lamb... the, the, the lambs for, for, for... for the market. Erm s so er because obviously these hill farmers were compensated for, for the loss of, of sales. As far as I know, er the levels have now dropped and I don't think there are any further restrictions, as far as I know. But it was just on the, on the margin er er o o of something that was already a large factor below the international limit, so it was er there were very large safety factors involved in that in fact.... [speaker002:] Er Frank [Frank:] Yes thank you Mr President erm we worry about our, our stations though I don't think we've got very many in fact... but within reach, within twenty five miles across the Channel there are probably ten or twenty French power stations that could cause just as much trouble as any of ours surely? And any fallout from them would affect most of the southern half of England I think, is this true? [Ian:] Yeah er the, the French erm... have a very large nuclear programme er for, for a good erm logical gallic reasons, I mean they've got no oil, they've got no gas, they've got no coal, so they decided, oh years and years ago in the nineteen fifties, to have a very large nuclear programme. Seventy five percent of their electricity comes from nuclear power in France. And that will rise to ninety percent early in the next century.... Er so they actually got themselves organized and they erm have factories that, that er mass produce the components and they're producing nuclear power stations at the rate of about one every six months. And, and erm because it's all mass produced er they can actually build a nuclear power station for half the price that we can... that obviously has an effect on the economics. And when they sited their power stations, they decided erm, again for good economic reasons, to site them er along the channel coast and actually down the, down the Rhine... most of the power stations are, are er th they have power stations elsewhere but a lot of the power stations are in these areas here... and the reason for that was, by putting it near to their borders, they were able to export electricity to their neighbours. Er they were banking on the fact that there'd be problems for other countries because of, you know, public perception etcetera, you know the French had decided... almost all of them decided they'd have a nuclear programme anyway so, so, so they were er o okay. Er so a lot of their power stations are actually built near borders for that reason, they're, they, they, they, they make a lot of money by exporting nuclear electricity across the border to Germany, into Switzerland, to Belgium, to Holland and of course, through this,the these couple of cables under the channel, to Britain. So in fact five percent of our electricity comes from French nuclear power stations, in fact at the present time. Er but yes wh what happens if there's er er an accident? Erm the French erm safety record is extremely good. Erm we've had a, a major accident in nineteen fifty er... ninety fifty seven, one of the Winscale small reactors at Winscale caught fire... er the Americans had an accident at Three Mile Island which erm w was... catastrophic as far as the reactor was concerned, but the safety devices prevented any radioactivity escaping... the Russians have had their Three Mile I er their erm Chernobyl accident which was catastrophic.... Er the French, despite the size of their programme, erm haven't had any serious incidents at all, in fact they they're very well run er stations.... So erm yes there is the risk that the French, one of the French power stations could go wrong and it would affect southern England. Erm but er certainly the record to date has been that these power stations are erm extremely erm well run and that they ha they've had no major incidents at all. Yes there's always the possibility that it might. But then of course France is a, is a, is a separate country and we can't actually tell the French what to do. Er we could refuse to buy their electricity off them I suppose but it wouldn't be... have much affect. But if you can actually influence the French let us know because, or let the government know, because they, they've been trying for years... ever since Napoleon's day, to try and do something. I mean we Mitterand and take him down to the I suppose, see if that'll do any good but erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] erm you know the each, I mean, basically we are, we are a world of a hundred or so independent sovereign states... and each sovereign state can do what it wishes within its territory... with the exception of Iraq of course [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] er for, for other reasons. But I mean erm... er which means basically that er if, if a country wants to build a nuclear power programme... er they ha they, they can do so. And most countries with nuclear power programmes are, are pa er er are, subscribe to the International Atomic Energy Agency which sets international standards... er and they have inspectors who, who er check these standards are being observed. Er and of course France is a member, we're a member, in fact all the nuclear... c countries with nuclear power st er programmes are members. Which er gives some sort of erm er comfort that in fact the international standards are being maintained. The French are a fairly responsible people after all... er er with, with reason a reasonable standard of technology. And certainly they're record to date has been better than ours so erm... maybe we should [speaker002:] [cough] Gentlemen I'll just take one last question, Gordon [Gordon:] Yeah... in today's press it says that er the government are going to subsidize now the coal industry... something like seven hundred millions due to the miners' kerfuffle, which is going to mean between five and ten pounds... subsidy per ton. Now it also goes on to say that's going to affect electricity prices which will rise, now how will that... compensate with, with nuclear... electricity? [Ian:] Erm... well it depends erm... the, the economics of power production are extremely erm... er complex and, and t to a certain extent arbitrary... erm and erm... I mean there, there are various ways that the government can actually get out of this fix because obviously it's caused a lot of concern to close the, the mines, and one is actually to, to subsidize the mines and put the price on to electricity bills... er the other is to subsidize the mines er but pay for it out of the, out of, er out of taxes... so it's a basic, instead of paying for it on your electricity bill, you pay for it on your tax bill, yeah. A and the, the justification for doing this would be that in the long term we will need the coal... therefore it's ne it's necessary to keep er a viable coal industry going. Er er er th that's a fairly logical argument in fact. Erm... it's one that is er different from the normal philosophy of this government which tends to er work on er... relatively short term economic forces, let the market sort things out is, is, is generally their philosophy. So it would mean actually going against their, their philosophy. Erm... the nuclear industry also has erm er a subsidy, it's known as the nuclear levy... erm and there is reasons for that erm one is that erm some money has to be put aside to decommission nuclear power stations in the future... erm now the s C G B, before it was broken up, had been actually putting some money aside year by year yeah ou ou out of the money that was generated fr er er from selling electricity nuclear power stations, some was put to one side, notionally,o on the accounts... f f for a future decommissioning. Now when the C G B was broken up, that money just disappeared. I mean nobody pinched it, it er actually just went into the general melting pot. So that national er budget that had been accumulating over, over twenty thirty years just basically vanished. Er so that had to be, that had to be re replenished essentially with, with, with other money. Erm... so erm... th the cheapest er fuel at the moment is gas, you know, that's, that's why er a lot of the erm... er er generators are now moving to towards gas er erm er generation... er wh which is fine for as long as the gas exists but, you know, another, give it another ten fifteen years, and our North Sea gas will have gone you see so, so erm... you have to ask well how much do you, weight do you put on market forces... and how much in say, in the energy business, ought you to be thinking longer term? And that's really a political question.... [speaker002:] Thank you Ian. Could I ask Rotarian Jeff please to propose a vote of thanks.... [Jeff:] Right erm... regarding being a Lancastrian I think the er the main for coming down to the south is probably where you are today, I mean, cricket is the great game that we all follow here [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [Jeff:] no doubt you've come down to watch some decent cricket. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Jeff:] I won't say too much about the football cos Manchester United are on top.... Erm... ironically I was one of those that went from Essex to Manchester and I did live up there for a couple of years but er decided to come back. Erm personally, er on the nuclear er atomic side, we we're very involved with our own company, with B N F L at Sellafield, with the er manufacture of the precast concrete and, and I know what it means in terms of the, the safety incurred in... in, in the design because it is quite erm... er strenuous the things we have to go through. I'm going back to the erm controversial emotive subject of atomic power I suppose, as you said earlier, the... the atomic bomb and erm I suppose the most worrying thing for er for everybody was when erm... the Cuba crisis was on and everybody was just waiting for these mushrooms to appear over London because we all thought we were gonna be bombed at any time but... er obviously the other thing that sort of worries people is other things that you said about Chernobyl and Three Mile Island... but on the other side, obviously the erm... the low cost of atomic power must be the advantage for the future. Obviously not being aware that there's er a population of eight billion forecast for the year two thousand and erm obviously with the natural resources of erm... gas and... coal running out and the, the pollution problems you've got with coal... and obviously the great efficiency of sixty times more efficient than other forms of power. Er other areas that probably worried people er i is this storage and distribution and how it's gonna affect us and goodness knows what but I think... that's been gone into in, in great depth and I'm sure it moves around with great safety. Erm obviously other forms of power... er the, the, the water barrage in the Severn erm Estuary and the wind power is, is something but obviously er the thing with this atomic power situation, it's got to be something for the future. Erm I think that's about all I've got to say and I, I'd just like the club to... er thank Ian in erm the usual way please [speaker002:] [applause] Thank you Mr President. Next week we have Rodney, the District Foundation Chairman, and the hosts are Alan and Mike.... Thank you gentlemen, I will now close the m meeting by asking you to join me in the the erm Final the final toast.... The toast is to Rotary the world over. To rotary the world over.... I thank you. Thank you Ian, that was [Ian:] You're welcome [speaker002:] obviously very well received and it's very nice to have met

[Ernest:] born in Church Street... I, I was only one, there were no brothers or sisters which... for the record, I regret... because... all around me I had cousins, dozens of them... and erm the families round me was big families and it was the, there was er times... when it was bad weather or something like that and you couldn't congregate outside, you'd go to somebody's house, are you coming? No I'm stopping in with our kid, you know, and you couldn't impose on, on so er if there was... fisticuffs, fights, falling out, I'll fetch our kid, I'll fetch our wench, I mean there we you used to, honestly and truthfully, you, you used to feel it, you know erm... because when there was any trouble, problems or like that there was always somebody to share it well... it had the advantages in some ways, perhaps you was er had a little bit more luxuries than the f bigger family, but i in my mind that didn't make up for the companionship of brothers and sisters, no b b b b that, that's w how I put it anyway. [Joyce:] Where did you go to school? [Ernest:] Well I started school at the erm national school in the High Street by the fountain. Erm... nineteen twenty one [LAUGHTER]. Erm... I remem erm y you used to erm... erm... take, have to take exams and if you passed the exams you could go to Alma Green Secondary School. Well I was t taking piano lessons, studying for the exams... I went over the top, I had to give it up and I didn't go to school then for another eighteen months.... Well when I started to school I went to, back to school er I was eleven or er ten or eleven then, and I went to Field Road School that er what er Thomas's, is it, was it school? What's the name now? But anyway, Field Road Schools and that's that's where er that's where I finished with school. I finished school when I was fourteen there erm... then [Joyce:] What work did you do... when you left school? [Ernest:] When I left school, which was in nineteen thirty, it was a bad time for... employment, there was a lot of unemploy unemployed people... and I tried and tried and eventually I was offered a job at the Bloxwich Lock and Stamping Company in Bell Lane... Alexander works, it was er er Squires's were, er it's a family er... er concern, and erm it was the first... offer I'd had for employment so I took it. Me mother wasn't very pleased with me going to work there but I said well it's a start so I stopped [Joyce:] And why wasn't she pleased? [Ernest:] Anyway to finish that story about stopping and starting, I stopped there for [LAUGHTER] fifty years []... and me mother was still alive when er when I... at ninety three... and when I retired... in nineteen... seventy nine, nineteen eighty... I told me mum that I was finishing and she looked at me... I told you that job wouldn't last... and I, I, I mean I'd done fifty years all but a few months. [LAUGHTER] [Joyce:] Why didn't she want you to work there? [Ernest:] Well er er... it hadn't, well... I dunno whether I should record this, it hadn't very good reputation for... pay and employment, but anyway [Joyce:] She thought you could do better than that. [Ernest:] Yeah. Anyway I, that's what happened, I was there, I, I started. Mind you er... I started and finished there... but erm we was engaged, oh I have talked to other people but... we was engaged in making locks but most of the locks, well they did do a, er wardrobe locks, small cabinet locks, lever locks but one of the biggest kind of locks we di er made was the locks for car... cars and vans which, in them days, was [LAUGHTER] was fantastic because most of the... car bodies was of wood, the, the, the, the framework was wood, so erm the locks er were three or four, four by five er seven by eight and selvedges on them fourteen inches long, er bolts er the, the bolt mechanism would be anything from five eighths to an inch in di er er square with a radius on the end erm... th there was er there was the sidecar locks which were smaller... erm that was the sort of locks they made. Now... in the lock museum I've taken some locks th that I collected and took them over there they used to do speed locks... butted locks... sidecar locks... er then, as the... motor trade changed from all wood frames to metal frames, other types of locks, I took there... but this is what is amazing me, they, at the lock museum... they highlight all the Willinghall locks which are the padlocks, which are locks er... wardrobe locks, cabinet locks and all the smaller type of locks... but there was the biggest industry, I mean Walsall locks are still in existence now, they made er er locks for, for, for cars, the Bloxwich lock, that was their biggest trade was er, was er the bigger locks. There, there d they don't seem to be no mention of th this... side of the lock industry. [Joyce:] Were there any other lock manufacturers in Bloxwich itself? [Ernest:] Pardon? [Joyce:] Were there any other lock manufacturers in Bloxwich itself? [Ernest:] Not as er er er erm Wilks's er... well I don't think they er... Wilks's that's i in, where... works [Joyce:] By the gardens? [Ernest:] By the gardens, in the corner, they made er... parts but I mean I've never been in, in the factory, in their factory, but I do know that they made erm things for the motor industry. One of their products was erm... you, when you see in the cars th th that they can er make them open top and they close the backs down, there's a bracket on the side that er hinges up and well they used to special you know, it had come from the... landaus of the horse drawn vehicle, the same sort of thing, well they used to specialize in that and they used to make some kind of locks but I'm... I have never talked to anybody that worked there so I, I don't know, but that's the only other one as I, as I'm aware of... er was the, was Wilks's and er... Bloxwich Lock. [Joyce:] Mm. So you were at Bloxwich Lock in nineteen thirty nine when... the second world war broke out then? [Ernest:] That's right, yes. [Joyce:] What impact did that have on... what impact did that have on the factory? Did they [Ernest:] Well we cha er [Joyce:] move over to war work? [Ernest:] Yes we changed to war work and er one of the, something, we made a, a lock... which was a very very heavy duty, was the lock for the tanks. Oh it was er... it was about six pound in weight when you put it together anyway, and erm... used to make parts for aircraft and parts for the... dropping of the bombs which we called drop bars. This was a bar that er went under the bomb like that when they fastened them up, and then when they dropped the... bombs this bar was in a clip, like where me finger is,i in a clip so when they released them it dropped out of this clip... the bar went as well of course, down that went... down went the bomb drop bars with it... used to be... make them day and night... and things like that and er of course there was er Bloxwich Lock and Stamping we used to do odd stamping, odd forgings and things li and er that was other part of the war work. But it was then, it was from er... shop floor... that I... that the, when the... call went out for volunteers for, for the armed forces which initially was called Land Defence Volunteers, L D V, which eventually was broken down to... [LAUGHTER] look, duck and vanish []... army. That was before it was nominated as the, the Home Guard, that's what it originally was, the Land Defence Volunteers. Well when it was started up, the first unit that I was with was from the shop floor at Bloxwich Lock and Stamping... and erm... it took the nucleus of people off the shop floor and then after we'd finished our ten hour shift during the summer or when we could, we started foot drill training in the yard of the factory. That's when Major, who was on the photo, he was Major in the army of nineteen fourteen eighteen M C... Major M C, military cross... well he took charge... and er a chap off the shop floor, well he was an old contemptible of the nineteen fourteen to eighteen war, name of Bert... he was made Sergeant because he was only one who had got any military experience, and he started with us on the shop floor in doing foot drill. Unfortunately one day when it was earlier on he, he got his commands mixed up... and we was m marching down the yard and the drive, and we was marching towards the factory... up and down and right wheel and about turn, left wheel, basic foot drill you know... it had been going for about ten minutes and all and we was going down towards the factory and erm... we kept on going, we was getting close to the factory and he, he... he forgot his... words [LAUGHTER] forgot what er command he wanted to give and he shouted stop you'll be in the bloody factory in a minute [] instead of sa shouting halt, you know, he, he got flummoxed. [LAUGHTER] Oh [Joyce:] Were you issued with any uniforms? [Ernest:] The first er things we had was arm bands which had, had L D V on, that was the first uni type of anything we had for recognition was them. And then we had the er... the battledress was issued, the khaki, and erm... we was... had our head headquarters were started, the headquarters were started in an office at, one of the office rooms at the... at the Bloxwich Lock and Stamping Company by the, the top offices we used to call them, by the gates, we had one of the rooms there for... and it eventually became the armoury when we got some... equipment because rifles etcetera was in very short supply after Dun Dunkirk... So eventually we had a few... rifles and er... when the er we got a few rifles and er the sirens went... it was the practice at the beginning when the sirens went in this area for everything to stop and everyone down the shelter... but it happened... four or five times, everybody realized how non-productive this was, that the time that was lost... and there was nothing happening in this area... so it was decided by the R T B that we, the, the people off the shop floor wouldn't stop work until the attack was really imminent or it had started... because if this, this was happening all over the Midlands area and of course if you, if you multiply that by the number of people at work you can imagine how much production was lost erm... and also when the sirens went... Major at the factory used to get the chappies out... from off the shop floor, get the few rifles we'd got, take we in to King George's playing fields... there was a, a brook running across King George's playing fields then, it hadn't... and a trench which was extended to stop er aircraft from landing in King George's cos it was just a big open space. Well when the sirens went at the beginning, what few rifles we'd got, he'd er take us out and string we out along this brook, a rifle every so often and... and facing one way and... looking round to see when anything goes up and in case anybody come over or anything come over... and er that was the initial start. But... afterwards, as things got, there was erm... a look out post built on the flat roof of one of the buildings at the factory and then er there used to be, when the sirens went, there'd be look outs in this er observation post on top of the factory. Well [Joyce:] So how did that work then if, if... if the look out could spot some aircraft [Ernest:] Er they they could er we er... ring a buzzer in the factory, ring the buzzer in the factory then, the factory buzzer would go then. [Joyce:] And then production stopped did it? [Ernest:] And they went down the shelter. [Joyce:] Was the factory camouflaged in any way? [Ernest:] No it wasn't. No. I mean it stuck out like a sore thumb, I mean er by King George's playing fields... erm... cos of the, they hadn't the,th the, the s other story for that was as I said was... we... they sent er some of us to a class in Walsall for er aircraft recognition and er... the days I went to this class, cos I went as er, er both for the factory and for the Home Guard, so that I could cover both the factory and when I were on duty, Home Guard... and we was at a building on the corner of Corporation Street and west, and we was taking classes in there. Then we was taken out of there into the... Corporation Street where the fair used to be held and we had silhouettes of different aircraft on poles and holding them up and we er so as we could recognize them. We came back from there back into the rooms that we... having instructions in and continued with our lessons. Then when we finished and come out we er there was such a commotion in the street... while we were in there taking aircraft spotting a, a German aircraft had come over and it had dropped a bomb on [LAUGHTER] the gasworks had the plane, and we had known nothing about it []. Fortunately though this bomb didn't explode else i i we should of known about it. But when I got back to work the people that was in the observation post on the factory, they saw this aircraft, it came down low over the King George's playing fields and they could see the markings on it... and they'd sounded the alarm but... but course the aircraft went straight over. But that was, well I was at aircraft spotting class when that happened. [Joyce:] Did you have any special instruction in first aid or fire fighting? [Ernest:] No. No, none at all. We had a basic training for, for the, for the arms... for... weapons drill... and erm, course none of us had ever er had a rifle in our hands until this, never mind fired one. Well after er we, things be begin to get more organized, people from outside the factory was drafted into the unit so i it began to be build up on that. Chappies off the shop floor were called up so they gradually... less from the factory cos er er er... there was less male employees in the factory, they went in the servi so outside uni outside people as had volunteered and got their names down that things got organized, the unit was from all over Bloxwich then. But that w that was how it was started was at, at the Lock at Bloxwich Lock. [Joyce:] So the whole of Bloxwich Home Guard really started [Ernest:] Yeah [Joyce:] at the Bloxwich Lock [Ernest:] Yeah that's right [Joyce:] and then it [Ernest:] that was the first [Joyce:] it gradually became Bloxwich Home [Ernest:] first unit yeah. [Joyce:] Guard. [Ernest:] Course eventually the, I mean, there was er... there was Sergeant who was a butcher out the High Street... there was Alf was a barber out of the High Street... there was er... Frank, Frank he was another butcher out of the High Street... there was er miners... er teachers, I mean there was quite a... mixture of occupations in, in the, in the Home Guard. [Joyce:] How did you get on together, alright? [Ernest:] Yes, yes. We... we was... I can't recall any falling out, you know what I mean? Er there was good companionship, good comradeship amongst everybody. Erm... course the first guard duties, guard unit was at the Bloxwich Lock in the office that was allow er allocated to us. It became the armoury then and er we used to do guard duty on the armoury every night... there was someone on guard duty.... One night... Major, Deekie as he was known, came down to inspect and the young chappy who was on guard, he challenged him properly er before he allowed him to advance towards him... but after he'd advanced toward him and he'd been recognized Major says is the rifle alright? And he says yes, he said can I have a look? And he gives it to him! [LAUGHTER] Anyway that, that... I mean... lack of experience, lack of knowledge and, put that down to, probably but that's just another story. Well then... as the unit got bigger, as I said, the room at the... offices in the Lock wasn't big enough so we moved from there to Alma Green Infant School, that's the school now they used for all kinds of social activities during the day and th on that side by the... car park. Well we had a r a sch classroom in the infants school there for our headquarters and er storing cos... we used to make use, we had a palliasse on the floor for when we was on night duty erm... but I can never understand why we had our he headquarters over there but we had to do guard duties over in the elementary school on th school on the other side because that was the only one that had got a telephone... and we had to man the telephones from the Brigade Headquarters or the... to be able to phone to should they want us to be called out and so we had to do the guard duty over there but we slept in the, when we was off duty we was in er Alma Green School... and that was there and then the... we moved from there eventually and th th the... longest part of our life of the Home Guard, the headquarters was at the cottage, I've been trying to think what the name of the cottage is, it ha it, it has a name... it's the cottage next door to the Sir Robert Peel public house in Bell Lane. It's the er cottage that's still, the other buildings all around it have gone, it's the cottage that er next to the Sir Robert Peel, that was the... that became the, that house became the headquarters, er [Joyce:] How many men would be in the Home Guard after you moved your head [Ernest:] Eh? [Joyce:] How many men were there actually in the Bloxwich Home Guard? [Ernest:] Well I mean that photo [Joyce:] When you [Ernest:] that I've got, that was the complete unit for the Company. I've been trying to think what we what the n whether it was D Company or C Company but I can't recall, that was the Company, that was, I just... D Company of the er South Staffs... of the whole Walsall area you see, that was D Company. I er [Joyce:] Did you ever join forces with any other Companies for training? [Ernest:] Oh yes yes, I can [LAUGHTER]... yes. Well er I was saying er we, we went to the... the cottage by the Sir Robert Peel and that, that was our final headquarters, that was where we was until the Home Guard was stood down. Because they, they... they'd got cellars in that cottage so that the cellars became the ar armoury and there was... erm ammunition and everything in there and the back of there, which was the garden, we could use as, as parade area so it was... it was very central and that's where we finished up as headquarters for... I'll say D Company, for Bloxwich. Yes we was, we got out with others. I remember once we was called out on the actual... called out for actual sighting of s there was supposed to have been some activity over er Bentley... so we was all called out and the assembly point was at Tolbertstead's works in Green Lane and we assembled er in the, at Tolberstead's and then we was sent out as search groups er from there right across... Bentley. Now when you say right across, I mean you... you've ta seen the photos of, of er... shell pitted ground with the nineteen fourteen eighteen war, well that's how Bentley was then cos it had been... rooted for coal and nineteen twenty six strike everybody got it all out cos there was a lot of top surface coal, course it was just left... there was a lot of mole holes, stuff from... the furnaces when they tip tipped the slag, it was... up and down and there was Buttons Brook, wasn't it Buttons Brook... across there, called Buttons Brook... there was a pool across there called Leg of Lamb [LAUGHTER]... but I mean it, it er you can imagine what I'm trying to say, what the ground was like to go over in pitch black night, to go over there and we went out and course we was issued with er ammunition which was... one of the o only times I can remember when we went really out prepared with live ammunition, and er... we scouted and scouted till daybreak and we didn't find nothing. Then when we come back to... stand down, we came back to Tolbertstead well we was in Tolbertstead so the Tolbertstead canteen staff got some hot... prepared some hot drinks and so when we come back we was able to have a hot drink and erm... it was the duty of er the sergeants to see that the rifles were empty... free, no am no, there wasn't er... there wasn't one up the spout, one bullet left in the, in the rifle... and er Sergeant, the barber, was checking our rifles... anyway he, he was... check, check, check, check and er alright... he mischecked one and pulled the trigger and there was a bullet through [LAUGHTER] the roof in the, in the... he was holding it up or otherwise there'd have been somebody on the floor but er he, he missed this one []... bullet through the canteen roof. And then we used to do erm... exercises with er from different areas, they'd come and attack our area or we'd come and try and in il infiltrate in their area and er we had, we had a night exercise and we was erm... went out... Saturday afternoon, we was out all Saturday night and Sunday and on the Sunday mid day we was still er out and we was in the farmyard... at the farm at end of Brierley's Lane... by Bell Lane, off Bell Lane, Brierley's Lane... right at other end, we was in their farmyard and their outer buildings and we was... str put out on guard duty from the Stafford Road to Broad Lane, and we was protecting that area, they were supposed to be coming from the Cannock area towards us... and er... we was in the, in the farmyard and course... the m muck and stuff and all that out of the farmyard was there and the ducks was wallowing in it. Anyhow we was supposed to, they... set a field kitchen up in the farmyard to, as part of the exercise, to feed us er and er... they handed out some meat pies, you know, we just had one ta oh taste and well [Joyce:] [LAUGHTER] [Ernest:] you never tasted anything like it in all... Anyway nobody would eat them, the... ducks well they were they was rolling in all the muck in the farmyard but they, they went to the pies... just put their noses round them and turned them over and then they s and true as god made little apples they started walking round these pies and they left them and they were still there [LAUGHTER] when we went away []. But they wouldn't, they wouldn't eat them. That was our first [LAUGHTER] attempt at... a field kitchen [] [LAUGHTER]... We erm... when we got back to s be stood down... we was told by the er... umpires that was stationed there that our headquarters had been wiped out. [LAUGHTER] They'd come from the other way []... from er Snade Lane... not Broad Lane, they'd come up from... they'd come farther round, round and come in th in... round the back sort of thing and we... we'd got no headquarters [LAUGHTER] any more []. So we'd had a... we'd been out all night and all day and achieved nothing but it was, course it was exercises. But erm... [Joyce:] Tell me something of the hours you used to work at that time. [Ernest:] Pardon? [Joyce:] How many hours a week did you use to work... at your job? [Ernest:] Oh we used to work er f er six days a week, er all day Saturdays... erm eight to eight... and er eight till eight at n at er eight till seven at night... or er or eight till eight at... erm... most shifts was early, they used to have a... a... an hour er an hour break of a dinner time er... sometimes they only used to have half an hour at night because, I mean well once you've got er y y you was there, once you get you shift done it was no good sitting there doing for an hour and er it, it varies on what production... what was wanted and how far advanced you was or how far behind you was, you know, but er the average hours was as I say was ten hours a shift... that was working shift, you worked ten hours and then a break in between, ten minutes, half an hour [Joyce:] And what hours did you have to put in for your Home Guard duty? [Ernest:] You used to have to do er all night from seven till seven... erm you was on, called out for er on weekends you had to parade every Sunday morning. See th this is what I'm saying, you'd done all them hours and then you was at it again on the weekend. You'd g had to parade on the Sunday erm... for... weapon training, and one Sunday... we... earlier on, we hadn't fired a rifle, so... it was arranged for us to fire a rifle at a rifle range. So we was... er... called out at nine o'clock on the Sunday morning... transport was laid on and we was taken over to, to fire in woods at Fradley, the other side of Lichfield.... We was there till six o'clock in the afternoon... and it took us from the er ten o'clock in the morning, say about ten when we got there, it took us from ten till six to fire five rounds of ammunition [LAUGHTER] because there was that many there and you had to wait your turn. While they went into the firing... blackboards to fire your rounds and you, all you was allowed to fire was five... five and then you had to wait, take your turn course... everybody had got to go in, they'd got to check them... as everybody got... had fired their five there weren't one left up the spout like there was before, course it took time see, and it took us a day, I would say a day, to fire five rounds of ammunition. And that was the only time that I've fired a rifle [LAUGHTER]... cos, well actually... I... went... got, rose to a corporal... I was a corporal when they finished and erm... I was in er made cor lance corporal and then I was... er with a heavy Vickers machine gun, that's the one with the... has water cooled casing on it... the big heavy one you see, and I was with that, that team. Then... when I took er you'd... you could take a proficiency test which was held at, at your Company Headquarters by a visiting officer and erm... I then, we'd, by then we'd had some American weapons come, one was the Browning automatic which is a very very good... good er weapon, you could r fire single shots or rapid shots. It was the American equivalent to the Bren gun only it, it was more like a rifle, it hadn't got a stand, you know, more like a rifle butt, you know. And I, I was issued with that and er I took... lessons on it up at head at headquarters and then when I took me proficiency test, I was asked questions on the Browning automatic and... other ap things appertaining to the army and I passed me proficiency test. That's the certificate which I regret now... is with South Staffs museum at Lichfield. Also a photo of all the officers of Walsall that I saw in a second hand shop and I went and bought it for a few pence. And I'd got them here and I thought well I don't know what to do with them and I b b interested in... I'm interested in... going back in time, I'll go anywhere where I can see something... and I'd been over there and they'd got some Home Guard stuff in a case, only a small show, and I asked them if they'd like it and they said yes. Well I've took that, I took that some years ago... but I've never seen it on show... you know? And I, I, I mean I've r now that we, Walsall's got their own department I wish I'd of kept on to it, it'd of been interesting. But that's where it is. And me proficiency c certificate, I took that as well and they had that as well. And so you, you, you... I had stepped up a bit in, in... in rank, I'm a... but erm... there was... being, on the social side... course being next to the Sir Robert Peel, when we went down there, it was quite handy... although I'm not a drinking man, I never have been, I'll go and socialize and I'll have half a pint or two halves but I'd never... I've never been one to go out drinking. And of course when you was er... wasn't on guard duty at the f early evening, course there used to be... used to pop into the Peel and have a couple of halves or some would have a pint and there was a chap in, in the Home, Home Guard he, he used to be able to play the piano so we used to have a singsong in there for a social, you know. But erm... the comradeship there, I mean you very often see chappies now... I d know them from the Home Guard, but otherwise I shouldn't have known them. [Joyce:] You were telling me erm a little while back that erm you were made to go and work at Bilston. [Ernest:] Yeah. [Joyce:] Can you tell me about that? [Ernest:] Well this was a Manpower Board that came round and they was inspecting erm... what people were doing in the particular factory at and if they thought you'd be more... useful somewhere else then they'd direct you to another factory. So this is what they did, directed me to Bradley's at Bilston which I... er stayed at until the war finished. Er... it was ooh all female labour.... There's some of them was Irish.... Some of the labourers, the male labourers, was Italian prisoners of war [LAUGHTER]... And the things that they used to make in their spare time, well some of them was very very clever, you know. [Joyce:] Such as? [Ernest:] They used to make like ornaments out of scrap things, you know... oh... they was alright, they, they used to bring them in a... a lorry used to bring them... er in a morning then collect them at night you know. And they used to, not make anything, but they used to do the labouring, movement of work and all like that. They didn't make things but they was responsible for moving things about. [Joyce:] Where did they come from? Where were they kept? [Ernest:] I don't know where they was actually, somewhere on The Chase I think but I'm not sure where... I'm not sure where they come from. [Joyce:] What did they actually make at Bradley's during the war years? [Ernest:] During the war... they made er mortar bomb fins. Erm... fifty pound, bigger bomb fins the er the, the fins. You've seen the er round, say th looking fro on the top of the bomb i it's round... and then there's fins down to the bomb itself... er you follow me?... Well we used to make those rings and put the fins on, rivet them on, and the bombs, the, the, the... the rings was... erm... seamlessly weld on a... a welder that you... two w wheels which were electrically driven... and the power was put through them and, and you overlap the two seams like that, and it, as the wheels went round it'd weld them straight along, they was about eight inches deep... seam weld them right down. Er mortar bombs, they used to weld the fins on that, do those on stitch welders, they'd go up and down similar to these things you see now. It was the beginning of these automatics, you've seen these photos on the, on the television where these welders come down and they go in like this, well these was... the beginning of that sort of thing because it was worked... with a motor and a cam which er er the cam went round and it'd lift the arm up and when it was went past the, the knuckle it'd drop down... and the speed you... them out or the speed you sent them out how fast the arm would go up and down, and that was stitch welding. Another was spot welding and... they used to make er different containers for... the, the army. We still made a certain amount of buckets and bins and things like that which was their stock in trade, but mostly it was erm... was erm... bomb fins and mortar bombs... aerial bombs erm er and er things like er fins for bombs like that. But they still did do a certain amount of er... the stock in trade course the bins for g for transporting stuff in and all like that. They had, there, there was a small section still made kettles during the war cos I mean kettles wore out, wear out just the same, you've still got to have a kettle or a bucket, but erm... that's like everything else there was only, only a small section so they was in short supply. But erm... I stopped there till the war was finished and then er... I went back to the Lock and as asked them if th there was any chance of coming back to work there, you know, cos... and er they said oh yes, as long as you like. So the first opportunity I had I left Bradley's and went back to the Lock so... it'd been war direction, war service... we asked and it counted as me service with the Lock, that I hadn't interrupted me service being as I was directed so that's how I say I had fifty years at the Lock. I've got the watch upstairs for twenty six years, when I did twenty six years. Erm... but er... when the war finished, when the war finished and the Home Guard stood down, I can't remember who was the mayor of Walsall at the time, but they had a reception in the town hall for the Home Guard and everyone that was in the Home Guard was invited before we hand before we st handed our uniforms in, was invited to attend... and I must say with great pride that I was... can still remember it now, that the wife and I went to the reception and I was in the uniform and it'd be the mace bearer I presume that was at the door and he asked your name and er rank... and... he shouted out your name and rank when you went in and you was greeted by the mayor and mayoress inside the ves the... hall of the town hall, and erm... I mean er... quite proud to be... Corporal and Mrs [LAUGHTER] you know [] and it... I mean everyone that went, I mean their rank and name and... who was with them, you know, was... it was quite... quite a er er quite a... something of... to look back to of interest that was, you know, when we stood down. [Joyce:] Was there a ceremonial parade to mark the standing down of the Home Guard? [Ernest:] Yes we m yes there was. This was be this was er er there was a ceremonial parade when we stood down but this was er erm something that like that the... town... in recognition of the Home Guard... Cos when the Home Guard was stood down it was a national... er a national standing down so everybody all over the country er everybody in the country there'd be a er... a parade of some sort but this was for the Walsall detachment of the South Staffs Home Guard that was invited to, to the town hall for er a reception, it was quite... it stood in re er I still can remember about it quite... quite something to look back on that was really. [Joyce:] Did, did they parade through Bloxwich? [Ernest:] No. Well the parade was er a er er in Walsall... erm in front of the town hall where they normally... when they have a military parade or a parade of that sort, you know, is at the front of the town hall. It was... there, Lichfield Street isn't it? Yeah. Yes, no we, we er er all the, see, it was all the units. We did once ha er have er exhibition i er for the Bloxwich people erm... one, one Saturday. We put on a display... of marching or... and er weaponry we'd got... in King George's playing fields and er... talk about the weapons er er er br brings to mind... we had a, a weapon that was a anti-tank weapon and it was a Robin Robinson Heath er contraption made up of a tube, cast iron tube... on a three legged tripod... with er a hinge... ring on the one end which had a recess for a cap and a trigger to, to fire this cap. Now it was a anti-tank weapon... only you put a bottle in the tube, or a, a container that had got a i a liquid, I've been trying to think what it is, can you tell me a liquid that bursts into fl flame when it's exposed? Er er it was like a Molotov co bo cocktail, a thing like that and you put it in the, in the tube and you put a wad of cotton, gun cotton behind it... closed the... flap at the back onto er just a latch, like a, a door a gate latch which locked it, then fired the... cap which fired the gun cotton which sent the... well then we... we're trying this out... on the waste ground where the, that was then, where the waterworks' offices are now in Green Lane, well there that was, at that time, that was a... glue factory... that was the glue factory there... ooh. Well we was in that area trying this gun out in one of the mole holes that was over there and... we'd fired one, that was alright. We fired another one but the container broke and the vaporized stuff, it was vaporized er with the explosion, blowed on to us and it burnt. Fortunately w the canal was close to, we all er rushed to the canal and wash our hands in the canal and wash our face cos the vapour had gone on to us. That was the Roberts that... that was another Robinson. Also when we was giving this demonstration for the people... in Bloxwich for the, our unit in King George's playing fields, we'd got all our weaponry on, on, on show what we'd got... Vickers machine gun, the Brownings rifles... this... anti-tank bomb... anti-tank... tube, whatever you li gun, whatever you like to call it, but also we'd got what, what was termed a bucket bomb. It was a big contraption on a cross with er girders like, cross, like... a cross. And inside was what tha in the middle was like a bucket container, like er it was a, a, a, a kind of a mortar... and... you fired this mortar with a er a charge and it fired. This was a anti-tank and it fired a bomb... and of course we put a demonstration on firing this and then we was up the Bell Lane end and right at the top by Bailey's farm there was a row of seats, benches, along the walk there and of course the demonstration was we'd show them... imagine those... seats are tanks... course we never thought in the world we should ever even get near one... anyway we hit one [LAUGHTER] and broke it [] [LAUGHTER] Cos they, they, I mean they was only dummies, they weren't, I mean there was no explosive just the dummy shell you know... and we, we was quite pleased with ourselves being as we'd got an audience. Yeah. [Joyce:] Were there any searchlight batteries or anything of that nature in Bloxwich? [Ernest:] There were searchlights but not attached to us. We, we had them... about that.... Before I left the Lock and I was on nights the sirens went one night... and this was before they stopped going down the shelter... we went down the air raid shelter that... is, now, is the cellar to the club at Bloxwich Lock's club! It was the air raid shelter then... and we went down there and we was in the shelter... and er we'd been down there ten minutes to quarter of an hour... oh there was such a bang outside we thought this is it, you know, all the bits and stones and rubbish and er that was stuck on the ceiling was... disturbed you know and it... down it... on top of us, you know, all bits and plaster and water th it was er shi close. Course... creeps out up to the steps, look out the shelter... oh the factory's still here anyway.... Wonder wh well what's that, you know, be a bang so close... well it wasn't till, till some time after we found out... that they'd stationed a naval gun somewhere... Newtown way... and they'd f fired this gun to, as a... practice. Course that was only time it was ever fired because it was, it had caused that much disturbance and disruption with the gun. I don't know what size gun it was, you know, or any details but that's what we found out... what the bang was and it, it moved on to somewhere else, they didn't fire it again. It was while the air raid sirens was o air raid was... alert was still on. But there was no aircraft... but it was just a practice fire, you know. Course everybody was, was er in, looking... fin wondering where the... what had happened. But the funniest part about it was... in King George's playing fields where the cricket club is... at the beginning of the war that was a A R P... assembly point for the A R P wardens. When we eventually came out, when the sirens er all clear went we came out... look at that there... in the A R P warden's er in the A R P's... pavilion, the cricket pavilion there was a skylight... there was no blackout to it was there [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] beacon of light... the A R P had caught us [] [LAUGHTER]... [Joyce:] Where was the searchlight battery in Bloxwich then? You say it wasn't by the Lock. [Ernest:] I really don't know, I can't say as er er as I ever, ever... seen a unit in, in this area at all.... Course though they had the bombs drop down the road here, they had a bomb drop just down the road here. There was a bomb [Joyce:] Where was that? [Ernest:] Eh? [Joyce:] Where was that then? [Ernest:] When? [Joyce:] Where? [Ernest:] Just down the road here it was just down in, in Howard Street. [Joyce:] In Mm mm? [Ernest:] Yeah. Yes they had one down there. I mean they weren't badly... Me father at th er at the beginning of the war he worked... he worked at the Grove pit, down the mine at the Grove and he used to be on afternoons. And of course when he was coming home... in the middle of the night... from afternoons, biking it... and the one night they came he was coming home... you know the finger post at Pelsall? Norton Road is it? From there to... the Watling Street... where the Grove pit used to be, straight the way along... go over the railway bridge, you know, it's the turn, well Grove pit was right in there. Well he was... well he was coming from the Grove to the finger post to come along... Wolverhampton Road, Lichfield Road, to come home to Church Street. The cornfields on each side of the road was on fire from incendiaries. Yeah.... And for... soon after that me father had to give up the mine be because of his health and he went to work at the depot... er were the bus depot... and he worked... in the battery house where they made all the batteries up, charged the batteries for the buses, looked after the electrical side... there was electrician, he weren't, me father weren't electrician but he was working with electrician... but his main job was... charging the batteries, putting them on in groups in the, in the er battery house and charging house, to keep all the batteries charged up for all the buses... petrol buses tr and trolley buses.... And er... th they used to make some of the batteries up, the cells, the, the... used to er... I don't know if you've ever seen a cell in a battery, it's usually made up of er wood... er lead and wood. Well they used to, if a battery couldn't be, you can charge it up but if it breaks through from one cell to the other a a across with sediment in the bottom, so it gaps that cell and that cell so you can charge it forever because the one's discharging the other with the sediment that's arrested in the bottom cos i it's like putting a connection across, so it never actually charges. So things like, you know... and erm... he worked there from, till he was sixty seven, you know, in er... erm so that's where he finished up were there. But... do you only deal with history or have you had anything to do with this exhibition... as to the trams and, and trolley buses here? [Joyce:] Er [Ernest:] Er where the bus depot

[Neil:] Right... coming in? [speaker002:] ... Thanks very much. [LAUGHTER]... [Neil:] Okay, we looked last time at the development of the Kuomintang and nationalist China after the nineteen twenty five twenty seven revolution and I said then that the defeat of that revolution had a profound affect on the character of the Kuomintang and the character of the nationalist China over which it presided. Exactly the same is true of the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party is totally transformed, I think transformed out of all recognition, and becomes a completely different kind of political organization as a result of what happens in nineteen twenty five to seven. And to understand that change I want to go back to the beginning and just to trace what has happened to the Chinese Communist Party since it was formed in nineteen twenty one... when it had a mere... I hope everybody can see that, it's not very... large today... and I don't think I can any better than that... In nineteen twenty one when it was first founded, it had a mere fifty seven members and it didn't grow very much for a number of years. By the middle of nineteen twenty three there were only three hundred members of the Party. By the middle of nineteen twenty five... only a thousand members. Then, of course, the revolution bro broke out, originally in Shanghai with the main and thirtieth movement, subsequently spreading to Canton and Hong Kong and other major er cities in the south and east of China. And then the Communist Party began to grow very dramatically. By the end of the first year of revolution they had ten thousand members, so they erm increased in size ten times in the space of about six months. By the middle of nineteen twenty six they had thirty thousand members and then they peaked in the early part of nineteen twenty seven with sixty thousand members. Now that is actually a very large organization indeed given th the size of the Chinese working class. Something like, think I've got it here, yes, something like... fifty percent class of [speaker002:] [cough] [Neil:] the members are actually industrial workers. The rest of the members are intellectuals er and students primarily. Now that means that at the peak, the Communist Party has a working class membership of something like thirty thousand plus, which is one in every hundred industrial workers in China at this time. That is a pretty substantial er party given that the Communist Party is essentially a party of working class militants, of shop stewards, of trade union organizers and so on. That means it has really very substantial influence indeed inside the Chinese working class. It controls many trade unions including some of the big confederations, most notably the Shanghai General Labour Union, a sort of T U C really, erm for, don't know whether it would bear much relation to the modern T U C in Britain, the erm, the sort of confederation uniting all of the unions in Shanghai, controlled by the Communist Party. And so were many other major unions and union confederations. This Party is then very substantially er destroyed, not completely, but very largely destroyed by the nineteen twenty seven coup and the repression which follows it. There are large numbers of executions, lots of people are er taken off to prison, many people in fear and despair and demoralization drop out of the Communist Party, it's particularly dangerous to be a Communist Party member in the major cities where the repression is most intense and where the security forces er are most numerous. But... the destruction of the old Communist Party is completed by two policies that are adopted by the Communists themselves, both a response to the defeat they have suffered in nineteen twenty seven.... First of all... there is the adoption by the Communist Party in the years nineteen twenty seven to nineteen thirty... of an ultra-left policy. A policy which consists essentially of insisting that no major setback has been suffered, that the revolutionary movement is still going forward, that there will be new major revolutionary outbreaks in the immediate future. And in pursuit of that perspective, that outlook... the Communist Party launched a series of what can only be described as ad adventurist er attacks on the new Kuomintang authorities. The autumn harvest uprisings, for example, in the autumn of nineteen twenty seven which consisted of attempts to lead peasant risings erm in various parts of the countryside, particularly in the area er around here er Kiang See and so on where the peasant associations had been particularly strong. Such as the Canton commune where down here in er Canton, perhaps the second major industrial city in China, the communists rose in revolt erm and attempted to establish erm a kind of red base in the city of Canton. But they rose on their own with virtually no support at all amongst ordinary workers, it was essentially a rising carried out exclusively by the Communist Party members themselves. Such as the attack which they mounted from the countryside of the city of Chang Sha which is also in this er in the same sort of area where the old er where the Communist Party had had its main strength. All of these military adventures are crushed very very quickly, usually in a matter of days. Large numbers of the Communist Party members who have risen... almost in complete isolation against overwhelming odds, large numbers of them are actually killed in the fighting, many more of them are arrested and executed... and in this way, the destruction of the Communist Party, particularly in the major cities, is to a very large extent completed by their own mistakes. Instead of retreating... instead of going underground... instead of accepting that the situation had become extremely difficult and it was necessary to try and rebuild their organization and their influence gradually over a period of time, they committed their shattered forces to further battles and more or less completed er their destruction. Why?... Well for two reasons.... One, I think, because the Communist Party in China itself was completely disorientated by defeat. Right up until the coup in nineteen twenty seven they had been following a policy... dictated by Moscow, dictated by Stalin... which told them form alliances with the Kuomintang, work with the Kuomintang, first of all trust Chiang Kai-shek, then when Chiang Kai-shek turned on them they were told to trust the left Kuomintang leaders who were based in Wo Han in the middle Yangtze valleys, and then they turned on them... a policy, in other words, that had proved absolutely disastrous. Then confronted with the enormity of the defeat which the Party had suffered, many members were completely i incapable of understanding er what had gone on, were disoriented by the defeat they had suffered and were open to the argument... the strategy was right all along, the revolution is still going forward, there are going to be new uprisings by the masses and so on and so forth. A complete disorientation among the ordinary membership. But into this situation there is the intervention again of Moscow, of Stalin. Stalin's policy has changed dramatically. Up until nineteen twenty seven he's been saying... work with the Kuomintang, work with the bourgeois nationalists, work with the parties to your right. At the end of the nineteen twenties the policy from Moscow, not just to the Chinese Communist Party but actually to communist parties all over the world... swings dramatically to the left and Stalin is arguing that there's, there are going to be revolutionary explosions all over the world... the Communist Party must forge its own path, it must put itself at the head of these struggles, it must give a lead to the masses by launching insurrections and so on and so forth. Why has the policy changed? It's changed partly... because Stalin's er strategy in China has been shown to be a disaster... and Stalin is trying to cover his tracks... and most effective way of protecting himself against the criticism and the unpopularity which is likely to come from the failure is by insisting that the strategy was right all along and the revolution is about to triumph. He's also changing tack because in nineteen twenty nine, in Russia, they begin the collectivization of agriculture, the destruction of the Kulaks, the rich peasants, the adoption of the policy of forced industrialization. To justify this... and Stalin presents it as a revolutionary me measure, as a shift to the left, as the creation of socialism, to justify it er Stalin presents the argument that the whole world is moving forward to a new stage on the road to socialism, it's all a lot of... nonsense but the ideological needs of the regime in Russia are determining the advice which is being given to er various communist parties.... The second er factor which really, by the communists' own decision, completed the destruction of their organization in the cities and towns of er south and east China was the decision in the early nineteen thirties by large numbers of surviving communist militants to leave the cover, to er... leave the cities and the towns where the repression was severe, where it was very difficult to avoid being picked up er by the police [speaker002:] [cough] [Neil:] to escape that, by fleeing into the countryside, very often into particularly backward and inaccessible areas of the countryside, where they would be safe from the security forces and where they hoped they could begin to create a new base among the peasantry. So not only do we see a physical flight to the countryside but also a change in political outlook. An orientation now among many of these displaced militants... no longer on the working class but on the peasantry and on developing the struggle of the peasantry as a way of creating a base, a new base, er for the Communist Party in the countryside.... Now at this point I want to sort of take a break from looking at the development of the Communist Party... to looking briefly at the peasantry because although the peasantry have been in the background for much of the time, we haven't actually looked in any detail, so far, at the condition of the peasantry in China. And their role is now absolutely crucial, crucial to the development of a new strategy by the communists and to the revolution of nineteen forty six to forty nine.... The poverty of the Chinese peasantry was, I mean really for us i it's, it's very difficult to imagine how appalling conditions were. There had been, for one thing, enormous population growth... I'll put the figures up for you... The population had roughly trebled er between seventeen hundred and eighteen fifty and then, in the period we're primarily concerned with here, the hundred years from eighteen fifty to nineteen fifty have increased from four hundred and thirty million up to five hundred and eighty million. Now that meant that there was massively increasing pressure on China's land, and there was growing parcelization of the land and what was happening was that peasant families would of very often er produce two or three sons [speaker002:] Could I just ask a question about that? What was the reason for the growth between eighteen hundred and eighteen fifty because they hadn't had sort of mass industrialization industrialization which had caused population growth in other countries so was there any particular reason why there's should have trebled in that time? [Neil:] I think that's a good question.... [speaker002:] And what's the answer? [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] Yes, I mean I don't think anybody really knows. Erm there are various er theories to explain it erm and I mean usually, if there is a significant population increase, and that is a very very dramatic increase indeed, it is associated with increases in productivity. And yet quite clearly there have been no significant increases in the productivity of Chinese agriculture and certainly no large scale industrialization. So why the population should have been growing on this scale I think is er a question that we can't answer very easily. [speaker002:] Could it be that the statistics in seventeen hundred were wrong?... That er... well the kind of census [Neil:] I suspect not [speaker002:] in seventeen hundred. [Neil:] erm and what makes me suspect not is that... Chine Chinese record keeping for many many centuries had been very thorough of course because it's the basis of the imperial taxation system, so my guess is that the figures are probably fairly reliable.... [speaker002:] Were they receiving er more produce from their outlying... parts of empire? You know,w was there more... agricultural er produce coming in to make er their food supply better? [Neil:] Well t I mean to the extent that that is happening, that there is a development of trade on the sort of, you know, with the periphery of the empire and with erm areas outside the empire, and that was certainly happening in this period, I don't see why it should have a significant impact on the peasant population because there isn't really any evidence that it's, in a sense, trickling down and enriching the peasantry. There's no er evidence of a significant increase in the peasants' standard of living... quite the reverse... in this period. So, again, it may be a factor but it's probably not the most significant [speaker002:] So by, by the peasantry we, they, they represent purely the people in the outlying agricultural areas? The peasantry are excluded from... the cities? [Neil:] Mm. [speaker002:] Er and that was just... primarily to the growth of the peasantry? [Neil:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Neil:] Yes.... [speaker002:] You would expect i i if it was because of an improvement in their standard of living, however... slight, you would actually of expected the population from eighteen fifty to nineteen fifty to have increased even more wouldn't you? If, if, if you could explain it by that because presumably their standard of living did change between eighteen fifty [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] and nineteen fifty so you would've expected to see the same... sort of increase. [Neil:] Yes. [speaker002:] Cos I mean presumably they weren't... between eighteen fifty and nineteen fifty they weren't practising excessive birth [LAUGHTER] control to [] [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] to keep it under. [Neil:] Yeah that's right. [speaker002:] Is this roughly over the same area?... Is this [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] roughly over the same area? [Neil:] yes, yes yes, the area's not changed. [speaker002:] I was [LAUGHTER] this [] this contradicts now, I was wondering whether more areas became accessible between seventeen hundred and eighteen fifty for some reason or other, therefore they could... you know er enrol more people, and count more people. [Neil:] Well I mean not, not in the sense that the Chi the Chinese empire is, is actually growing but possibly in the sense that within Chinese territory marginal land that hasn't previously been used for agriculture is being brought into use. But that in itself er certainly won't increase [speaker002:] No [Neil:] erm productivity, quite the opposite. I mean marginal land tends to be brought into use, the less productive land, precisely when there is a pre the pressure [speaker002:] Yes but there could [Neil:] of population. [speaker002:] but there could be more people. [Neil:] It could support more people, yes yes, absolutely but the, but the level at which those people will exist will be that much lower, presumably, than the level of people who are in the more productive, the more fertile er parts of the countryside which are already in use.... [speaker002:] Could it have been the age old story of having more children to keep you when you get old? If life was becoming harder. what they say now they have a lot of children [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] to look after them when they get old. [Neil:] Yes. I, I think that's again going to be part of it because that is certainly I mean a major reason why er a lot of peasant societies have large families, but we'd still have to try and explain why it was that in this period, presumably so very much more of those children were surviving than had been the case earlier. Now usually we would explain that sort of things in terms of improved sanitation, improvements in the standard of living and so on, but that's not really happening, there's no evidence for that in the Chinese countryside in this period.... [speaker002:] Would the flight from the towns to the countryside in the early thirties of made any difference? You did say that er the communists [Neil:] Yeah it's very small numbers of people. [speaker002:] Pardon? [Neil:] It's very small numbers of people. I mean given the size of China I mean th there'd be [speaker002:] No I wondered how they sustained, were sustained in the countryside if vast numbers were moving from the towns into the impoverished countryside. [Neil:] We're talking about tens of thousands, really.... [speaker002:] It's a problem isn't it? [Neil:] Yes. I mean it is, I mean how you explain it is erm by no means straightforward. But what we, what is, is unquestionably true is that it does mean that there is growing parceliza parcelization of ple of peasant plots which means that the average peasant now has a much smaller plot of land in which to try and support himself and his family than was the case earlier in Chinese history. There is also a continuing technological backwardness... I think I, I probably mentioned right at the outset that in nineteen fifty India had six times as many tractors per acre in cultivation as China did. Now India was an extremely poor country in nineteen fifty and still is, yet it had six times as many tractors per agricultural acre as China. Britain incidentally had two thousand times as, as many but I mean that's the sort of contrast which perhaps you would expect. It's even the case that the iron plough, apparently, was comparatively rare in peasant China at this time. Most people were still using wooden ploughs er which, not only di is it much more difficult to cut the sod with a er wooden plough, but it also cuts only in to about half the depth of an iron plough so you can't sort of turn the soil over to anything like the same extent. There are of course virtually no chemical fertilizers. There aren't even animal fertilizers through most of the Chinese countryside because er animals haven't replaced human labour power, human labour power being so cheap and numerous, generally speaking. Human e excrement, believe it or not, was the most common form of fertilizer in the Chinese countryside. So the technological backwardness means that, and the over population, means that the soil is, is losing its richness and there's absolutely no way of restoring it artificially by ploughing deeply and turning up er new soil or by re-enriching it as it were by the use of artificial or natural fertilizers.... And then, on top of this, there are major natural disasters. Again a reflection of technological backwardness because natural disasters can be controlled with a sufficient investment of resources... China isn't able to do that, there are plagues of locusts, there is widespread flooding... er there are also, by contrast, periods of severe drought, particularly up in the North China Plain which is at the best of times erm a semi-arid region.... And then there's the class structure.... Here's the peasants... The gentry made up three percent of the population in the countryside. The rich peasants made up another seven percent... I have to check to see I've got the figure's right... the middle peasants, twenty percent... the poor peasants... seventy percent. A rich peasant is a peasant who works his own land but will employ some wage labour as well because he has a large enough plot to be able to, to need to do that. A middle peasant is somebody who is more or less entirely self sufficient, he doesn't hire any labour but nor does he have to work for anybody else, his plot is big enough for him to be able to support himself and his family. A poor peasant, who made up seventy percent of the population, is a peasant who doesn't have a plot big enough to support himself and his family. He may be completely landless, or it may be that his plot isn't big enough and he has to spend part of his time, or part of his family has to spend part of their time, working for somebody else to get in some extra money or possibly renting land from somebody else.... Now the distribution of land... was that these two groups... making up ten percent of the Chinese countryside owned fifty percent of the land. The middle peasants owned twenty five percent which meant that the, the poor peasants, making up seventy percent... owned just twenty five percent of the land. So on top of the appalling poverty of Chinese rural life there is a very unequal distribution of land which means that some people are desperately poor compared with others.... And then in addition to that... if you were a poor peasant who had to hire land from somebody else, you would of course pay rent and in the nineteen thirties it's been estimated that the average rent paid by a poor peasant farming somebody else's land was forty five percent of the harvest. So virtually half of what you produced would go to the landlord. And then everybody would also pay taxes. Taxes to the government, taxes which were particularly high in this period, because it's the period of the war lords, the period of the civil wars, the period of the war between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, high levels of war taxation throughout this period. Unsurprisingly very many peasants got into debt. It's been estimated again that almost half of all Chinese peasants were in debt to the money lenders. The money lenders would very often be the gentry, or the rich peasants, but there were also merchants who specialized in lending money, loan sharks. So er many would have, in addition to paying their rent and their tax, also regular interest payments to be made. And finally, people er were subject to various forms of forced labour, most obviously of course conscription into the armed forces... but other kinds of forced labour as well repairing the irrigation streams, digging dykes and, and so on and so forth.... I just want to read... three anecdotes which, and I mean I've given you sort of odd statistics and the advantage of anecdotes is that they actually put flesh on the bones I think, and they really give you a sense of what it meant to be er a peasant in China in the nineteen thirties.... [reading] A poor middle aged peasant couple of Cum Sien in Honan province were dependent for their subsistence on the wages of their only son who worked in a coal mine. When the couple, who were in their forties,unexpecte unexpectedly had a second son, the conscription officers informed them that their older son would have to serve in the army since the law exempted only one son per family. The wife pleaded with them, explained that they'd starve to death if the older boy left. When the local authorities dismissed her pleas she went home and beat her baby on the ground until it was dead []. Another one... [reading] The peasants up and down the valley lived and died in their special fashion. The father of one family died. Since his wife had been failing and the family was very poor, they decided not to bury him right away. Perhaps the old woman would die too before really warm weather came and the old man began to smell... when they could save by burying both with one funeral. The old lady agreed. So they stored the coffin in their darkest, coldest room, the old woman's sick room, and piled stones on its lid to keep the dogs out []. Last one... this is the these are reports incidentally by er European doctors working in China at the time... [reading] Another desperate case that we treated for nothing was that of a young man who looked like a skeleton. One would have said there was nothing but skin on his bones. His family was so poor that they'd been obliged to sell him. He was accordingly sent to a family that had no sons. When six years later a son was finally born, his new family simply threw him out and the poverty is so great in the region that one month spent begging and homeless brought him to death's door []. The extent of the poverty I think is very very difficult for us to imagine. Now this... had already resulted, between nineteen twenty five and twenty seven, in a spontaneous explosion across much of the Chinese countryside. Essentially what we will see between nineteen forty six and nineteen forty nine is a controlled explosion when the Chinese Communist Party quite systematically and deliberately harnesses this vast pool of discontented humanity and uses it to sweep away the Kuomintang regime. That's essentially what we see happen. Which brings us back to the Communist Party itself.... What I've called the Maoist turn, the turn in, in programme, the turn in strategy which is lead by er Mao Tse-tung, and we have finally got erm to the stage in Chinese history where Mao Tse-tung's role becomes crucially important. The s he is one of these numerous Communist Party militants who makes the move from the cities and the towns into the countryside in the late nineteen twenties early nineteen thirties. The strategy which he argues for in the early nineteen thirties, and it subsequently becomes the dominant strategy of the Party and Mao becomes the er recognized leader of the Communist Party er really at the beginning of the second half of the nineteen thirties, nineteen thirty five nineteen thirty six, around that time it has become the dominant position. His strategy consists of essentially three things.... Reliance first of all, not on a working class mass base but on a peasant mass base. Secondly... further to that, the reliance on a strategy of guerilla warfare in place of the strategy er of strikes, mass strikes, armed insurrection in the cities and the towns. And thirdly increasing emphasis, not on the socialist politics of the Communist Party in the nineteen twenties, but on the development of a nationalist ideology which could appeal to all classes in Chinese society who were interested in getting the Japanese out and who were angered by the Kuomintang government's inability to stand up to the Japanese. These were the three crucial elements... which gives rise to this central question in all discussions really of the Chinese revolution... which is was this Marxism?... Was this a Chinese adaptation of er the doctrine of Karl Marx, a signification of it, if you like, a Chinese version with the essential ideas, principles, programme and so on of Marxism retained... or... was it in effect an abandonment of Marxism? Whatever the Chinese leaders said, whatever Mao Tse-Tung said, did it amount to a complete abandonment of what Karl Marx had been arguing for, what er position which Lenin claimed to stand in in Russia and so on. The answer to that question I think is that it was not Marxism. And it was not Marxism for a number of reasons and this is almost certainly going to be very controversial so I hope that it will feed discussion in the, in the second half. It's not Marxism... because what we actually have now... in a Maoist Communist Party, as it emerges in the course of the nineteen thirties, is a leadership composed not of socialist working class militants but of intellectuals whose prime motivation is that they are modernizing nationalists. People who want to see a strong, unified, modern, industrial China created which is able to defend its territorial integrity, its independence and stand up for itself er in the world. That's the prime motivation of the people who constitute the leadership of the Party. [speaker002:] Come on, hello, ready? Oh about [Neil:] Right, well [speaker002:] ten minutes. [Neil:] erm we don't want to not get our tea and coffee [speaker002:] No but I mean he hasn't supposed to come and, you know... not really. [Neil:] Do you want, I mean [speaker002:] No but they do go at half past [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] three I think. I think Yes. that's when their time's up you see. Ah [Neil:] I've got about, you see I've about ten minutes [speaker002:] Well... [Neil:] five to ten minutes, I mean we might actually miss our tea and coffee so shall I finish off [speaker002:] I wouldn't mind [Neil:] shall I finish off after the break? [speaker002:] Yes. Mm well we'll have to we'll have to start... [Neil:] Right. When, when shall we start again? [speaker002:] Ten minutes. Ten minutes. [Neil:] Right, ten past then. Ten past. [speaker002:] Well we don't, we have our tea before we come... and when we go home. it's a better cup of tea. Yes it's [Neil:] I certainly need one [speaker002:] Oh yes [LAUGHTER] Yes... Sorry? [Neil:] You've got an easy day then? If it's been cancelled. [speaker002:] Well er very easy [Neil:] You? [speaker002:] Yes. [Neil:] Right. What I was erm doing was trying to identify... the three er characteristics of the er Maoist Communist Party as it emerged towards the end of the nineteen thirties which really... disqualifies it, I think, from the label Marxist, means that it's a completely different type of organization to what the Chinese Communist Party had been in the nineteen twenties. I talked about the leadership being essentially a leadership of modernizing nationalist intellectuals. The rank and file, by contrast, is composed of peasants, a mass membership is composed of peasants. Primarily peasant guerilla fighters, people who were fighting in the Red Army, and it draws its mass support, the Party members draw their mass support, er from the peasants in the areas where they establish their authority. And this rank and file membership and the wider group of supporters are subject to leadership from above, there is no real inner party democracy in the Maoist Communist Party. Policy is decided by the leadership and there are various er mechanisms for passing erm the leadership's ideas on to the rank and file, various systems of, of education, some might say indoctrination and so on, but no real inner party er democracy, no real er involvement in the decision making processes by this mass membership of ordinary peasants. And... thirdly... the objective was no longer what Marx had acclaimed the objective of... er a party following his leadership should be, no longer the objective which Lenin, in the Russian Revolution, claimed was the objective for the Russian Bolshevik Party... not a workers' revolution which would then spread and become international, worldwide. Quite clearly the objective and... you can... reading between the lines of the propaganda which pours out er of the Chinese Communist Party for the late thirties onwards, reading between the lines you can see it... the objective is essentially Chinese state power, achieving power and using power to build er a national er unified, modern state. So the impact... of nineteen twenty five to seven on the Communist Party and on the revolution which it made in nineteen forty nine is just as great as the impact had been on the Kuomintang and nationalist China. Let me just sum it up.... What had been essentially a workers' party, fifty percent of the membership workers based predominantly in the big cities and towns becomes a party of intellectuals and peasants. Intellectuals er and professional revolutionaries in the leadership, a mass membership of peasants. A party which had been essentially urban becomes a party of the rural hinterland and not just erm the, the countryside as a whole but particularly, in the nineteen thirties at any rate, the most backward parts of the Chinese countryside, the most inaccessible parts, the least developed parts of the countryside. A party that had based er its strategy on strikes and urban armed insurrections becomes a party of rural guerilla insurgency, a completely different kind of strategy for winning power. A party whose main base of support had been the, the unions and the er union confederations which grew up in industrial cities like Shanghai becomes a party whose main power base is its own Red Army, its own army of peasant guerillas which it itself has created. And, finally, a party which had seen itself as being part of a process of international socialist revolution, linked with the Russian revolution of nineteen seventeen, becomes a party which is primarily a party of Chinese nationalism. Now if... th this side, the list on this side erm represents the... sort of essential characteristics of a Marxist political party, and if that's a reasonable er summary, and people might want to take issue with it argue that these aren't the essential characteristics, that there are other essential characteristics or one other important er characteristic which I've ignored, but if these are, down this side, the essential characteristics of a Marxist party then Mao's Communist Party in the late nineteen thirties cannot, it seems to me, by any stretch of the imagination qualify. The Chinese Communist Party of the late nineteen thirties is a completely different kind of political organization to what had existed in mid nineteen twenties.... [speaker002:] Is that a good thing?... [Neil:] Good question. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER]... [Neil:] Perhaps we can talk about that. [speaker002:] Would you call Mao himself one of the intellectuals? [Neil:] Yes... in the sense that... although he comes from a peasant background originally, it's a rich peasant background and he himself had er a reasonable education and subsequently erm built on the education that he was given becoming in part self-taught. I would certainly classify Mao as an intellectual. Yes.... Shall we arrange ourselves [speaker002:] [cough] Yes. [Neil:] Finished?... [speaker002:] Well how long was the er the Russian revolution a Marxist revolution? [Neil:] It's another good question. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I mean the Marxism was the motivation just as it was for the Chinese but er I don't think the Russian revolution remained... Marxist revolution for very long... But the achievement of revolution did make it possible for the success of revolution to be seen by the Chinese... because it had already been achieved.... That's what gave them their [Neil:] I, I, yes I mean I, I [speaker002:] their drive you know [Neil:] I don't want to sort of wade in in response to that, I want other people to er [speaker002:] Are you going to sit in the centre?... Are you going to sit in the centre [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] Everybody finished with this?... [speaker002:] this part of a general truism that erm Marx banned communism Yes, yes that's alright. of the industrial countries. Countries which actually adopted it were found to er in this way.... [Neil:] As I say I'm not going to [LAUGHTER] respond immediately cos I think other people ought to. [speaker002:] Well I'd like to say to that that er no Marx didn't specifically erm... erm look to Britain or er Germany, only in the sense that they, at the time most advanced... and he, he reckoned that er ideas of communism would spread only in the most advanced countries... who in course of time would influence other countries. But initially there had to be a real, genuine erm working class revolution and therefore Marx looked first to England because we were the most advanced and we'd been in the business of running capitalism for s so much longer than any other country in the world.... What we need is a definition of Marxism of course. I know. [LAUGHTER] Oh dear [] [LAUGHTER] Well one that we can at least discuss as to whether this was Marxism or not. [Neil:] But that's precisely the problem because erm the definition which I would give to it is necessarily a definition which would preclude... er regarding Mao's party as a Marxist party but then other people would say that my definition... was er itself controversial. [speaker002:] Yes well if you tell us what your definition [Neil:] I would s I would, I would say it is that i it is the theory and the practise of international working class revolution. And I would say that all of those elements have to be there. It is a political theory but it's also an attempt to act on that political theory so it's practise as well. It's the idea that you can't have socialism in one country, it has to be international... it's the idea that it has to be based on the working class because the working class is the agent of socialism and it has to be by revolution because the ruling class won't give up its power and wealth voluntarily. I would say all of those five elements have to be in a definition of what Marx meant by Marxism. [speaker002:] I would agree with that but I'll take it further to say that, and if you read Marx you'd find this very clear, what he meant ultimately that the working class would achieve is a kind of a society where there was a common ownership of the means of life. No ruling class, no working class, just people producing wealth... as they produced it, consuming it... that would be an efficient society where nobody would go hungry, there would be no unemployment, no poverty and er it's the ultimate objective of er the human race. But that isn't, if we want to survive, that is what we must achieve, the common ownership of the means to survive. And it also means er er obviously no classes, therefore no wages or salaries, no money, no banks... just people and the material resources of the earth. [Neil:] But you've got you've got to have leaders haven't you? And here they had the intellectuals as the leaders which they had got to have. I mean after all, the working class wouldn't [speaker002:] [cough] on their own would they? Yes If they had if they had the... well because nobody came forward from the working class through it, it was the intellectuals that started it... and gathered the... You're wrong you see not even working class. No Surely once you have leaders then the whole things fall down Of course it does. Yeah. be because leaders want power and they get power and so they want more power. That's it, absolutely right. But then i i nothing will work without leaders. Mm see Marx, Marx didn't Marx did not anticipate leaders. What he did say to the working class is this that the emancipation of working class must be the work of the working class itself. That means an educated working class, understanding the needs of socialism or communism and setting about the task of achieving it by getting rid of capitalism and introducing socialism, or communism. Which means the same thing to me. What happened what happened really in, in Russia and China is er that they had a sort of captive lower class who'd been used to a very authoritarian kind of rule so they were able to impose communism from above. Because there doesn't seem to have been ever any er revolution that was initiated by working classes.... Victor Hugo says there will be no revolution until the middle classes man the barricades er which they're beginning to do now. But who are the middle classes? Who are they? You see Pass. here again here again you see in Marx, Marx says that more and more, and he said this in his day, more and more is society spreading into two classes... on the one hand the ruling class, the owners of the means of life, on the other hand the r vast majority of people today, it's ninety percent of the population, who don't own the means of l of life... but ten percent do. And more and more said Marx, society's splitting into these two groups. There can be no middle class with... even those who are highly paid, they are highly paid members of the working class, they're not middle class. But after all Marx himself was ma er middle class. No he wasn't. No he wasn't. Yes but working class aspire to be middle class, and very frequently represent themselves as middle class Well, yeah and, and middle class... er wish to achieve upper class. It's the lower class that tends to stay where it is because it doesn't get the representation. Because middle class will push the lower class down... and be supported by the upper class. Sounds So they have to have It sounds like It sounds like sounds, it sounds Yeah well it is Ronnie. a nonsense to me for this reason, that there is in society the payers of wages and the receivers of wages. That's how society's divided. We, you know, there are buyers and sellers and that's how you divide it. Mm. You can't get away from that. That's capitalism and you, so long as you've got buyers and sellers you get this antagonism of interest between buyers and sellers. What would you have then?? Obviously the interests of buyers and sellers are diametrically opposed to one another. Mm well how do you get away from that then? That's this society. I... I think that when we discuss Marxism erm we tend, I mean looked at the Yes. philosophical side of Marxism which is very interesting and... there's a lot of very deep thoughts... but what we've been given... your definition, is what I'd say is the political strategy that Marx said er was necessary to achieve the philosophical ends. Now you've er, you've defined what you think is, what you consider to be Marxism which is the political aim, the strategy and of course within your definition er it's so easy to er make a definition which suits your premise that er the Chinese Party was not Marxist. I agree with you but it's... it's very easily done isn't it? [Neil:] Mm. [speaker002:] If you want to prove a point, well you give the answer first and say this is what erm what's it all about. However I, I er... I can't see that er what happened with the C C P falls within either Harold's definition or your definition of Marxism. Perhaps you're both wrong, I don't know. [LAUGHTER] You did say that the Communist Party to state power. Erm weren't they then following Stalin's? You see he moved away from communism as That's right yeah, yeah. what we, you know, pure communism and just er adopted state power. And it seems to me that China was just doing the same as St Stalin did. In, in fact Mao himself said it I've got it here in, in, in black and white, Mao said what we are after is the abolition of feudal ties, to get rid of feudalism. Not, not getting rid of capitalism, get rid of feudalism. Yes. the Chinese Communist Pa the, the new Chinese Community Party, did it declare itself to be Marxist? [Neil:] Yes. [speaker002:] Mm. [Neil:] You see I mean er er and this... generally, I mean ju just as when Stalin claimed to be communist, that claim has been accepted by the great majority of people writing about what was happening in Russia in the West... and in just the same way the Chinese leadership er after nineteen forty nine claimed to be communist, claimed to be standing in the tradition of Marx and that claim, generally speaking, has been accepted. But there are all sorts of other claims that people make that we are very much more critical of. When Margaret Thatcher says the N H S is safe in her hands [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] we [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] we, well at least we, we give that some thought, we don't just accept it because she said it [speaker002:] No [Neil:] and I mean there hasn't been, I think, that kind of critical investigation of the claims that have been made by successive leaderships in Russia and China and other states claiming to be communist [speaker002:] Mm. That's right. [Neil:] which we would normally subject the claims of political leaders to. [speaker002:] Mm. See it's, it's the question of a big lie isn't it? If you keep on saying a thing long enough [LAUGHTER] communist [], everybody believes you even though it's the biggest lie on earth. It's a complete myth. There's never been any communism in Russia... communism in China. No but it, it, it What, what has happened is partially worked in Russia No it didn't they'd introduced capitalism into China Into it, yeah. they'd introduced capitalism into Russia Yes. Yes. But they at least did a half half of it. good. I mean don't forget... don't forget don't forget when everybody was wearing their sickles and hammers in this country they had millionaires in Russia. Now can you Yes. credit millionaires in a co so-called communist country? That's right. Because it's human nature people want to get better things. But aren't, aren't changes aren't these changes er in Russia and in China forced upon them to a degree by circumstances, by the fact that the outside world immediately withdraws and opposes a rising of the people as a whole against the established government er... I mean we've seen in recent times with Iran and so on haven't we? Er public opinion didn't welcome the overthrow of... of the Shah, it was immediately horrified and everyone gathered together to... er... try and bring about a re- establishment of the Shah. That's right. Er... I mean they had a family in er Russia didn't they? I mean that must have what it c er... millions died in that and er the same thing happened in China. And all of that makes it easier for those who are leading or in control to change the policies and get acceptance. Yes, but not to achieve communism No oh no because the cry of the Soviets was at the time, in nineteen seventeen, the cry of the Soviets was not for communism or socialism but their cry, and they had it inscribed on their banners, peace... land and bread, that's what they had there, peace, land and bread, not communism. But er communism and politics are like religion... they don't necessarily deliver the goods. They an interpretation don't they? Which, which they Well sell to the public. you see to put it back to Marx it's the working class that have got to deliver the goods. It's in, within their power now, look at the working class ruling now. They're on erm local councils and members of the working class sit on their local councils. The working class can take over at any time... when they wish, when they have the knowledge, when they are in the majority.... Well they're always in the majority aren't they? Well of course And Southend returns a Tory council Yeah year a well But they don't have to do that do they? They don't have But it's them they do it [LAUGHTER] Because if one stands out then they lose what they've got, they lose their job.... Once they ever reach that position I don't see that at all. and the it's perfectly it's all about it er er on television at the moment isn't it? I mean lunch time we were hearing how, because they stood up for what was right, it was over the killing of soldiers and that, this man job and actually he more or less said that he was... something wrong with his head didn't he? Yes he was put into a mental institution. mental institution and... having to give up his job because once they get that position... if they speak out, in any way, for instance the Civil Service you can't speak out at all even if you can see something that you know is wrong Well there is nothing that you can do about it well and even if you want to erm you have to side with I think that's entirely wrong. Entirely wrong Yes. because I've known civil servants who've been er members of my organization, I belong to the Socialist Party of Great Britain, the only socialist party in this country. We stand for Yes. communism as propagated by Marx in his day Yes. and we have had in our ranks civil servants. Yes but then they're but nevertheless they couldn't I mean they're university professors. publish anything however But they do publish things. I can bring along the statements of these people... who've said all sorts of things, you can you know... put down at once but they're not put down. There's a man, Steve, stands up in Hyde Park every Sunday er talking about communism and socialism. Mm. Erm I w I was going to say, going back to China, erm they're a bit frightened of China now in, in what was the Soviet Union I heard the other day, were th were they a little bit anti China's type of communism before er the Soviet Union fell or were they all, all pals together? [Neil:] In the nineteen fifties [speaker002:] They recognized the difference in their types of communism. [Neil:] Well... it's certainly true that there were ideological differences but whether those were the reason for the split or not is a... er is a, is a moot question and I suspect not. I suspect that... ideological differences with the Russians and the Chinese denouncing each other as counter- revolutionaries were sort of a cover really for the fact there were, there were real conflicts of interest between the Chinese and the Russians which we will, will, we will look at. But I, I mean through the nineteen fifties there is a reasonable measure of co-operation between the Russians and the Chinese and then from the beginning of the nineteen sixties and onwards there is conflict between Russia and China. And I mean there has been up until fairly recently, it's only in the last few years that relations have tended to get a bit better. [speaker002:] Mm. You were saying about erm... the West not, not questioning... Russian and China and, you know, accepting that they were communist. Di did that not... because... erm as capitalist countries we would perceive anything communist as being the enemy and so it, it's actually in our interests to, to, to lump them all together rather than question because That's right. if you question you might actually find that there's some good thing... or, or at least the people might find that there's some good things in it so it's then er it becomes more of a threat then to the capitalist world That's that's right. than by just dumping them all together and [Neil:] Right. [speaker002:] accepting it. [Neil:] Or you could say erm that if communism can be equated with secret police and the Gulag Archipelago [speaker002:] That's right. [Neil:] and forced labour schemes and so on and so forth, then you've destroyed, or you've very seriously undermined the appeal [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] of radical ideas in the West. Now I would suggest that that is the prime motivation... [speaker002:] Yes. But the communists in Russia were er th all this er Gulag Arli Archipelago and secret police have been in existence in Russia... for hundreds of years before the com er communists came in. It was because the people were used to that kind of society with a secret police and er government inspectors... and sending people out to Siberia and putting Oh yes. Under the Tsar your intellectuals in prison haven't they? I mean the society's didn't change all that much as far as the ordinary people were concerned. But we've changed too here, we've changed since the, the last century haven't we? Look at the way they treated people years ago. Yes but in Russia they... they had this kind of framework before communism began Well that's true Mm mm but it wasn't exclusive to Russia of course in the land Oh no I of the Tsars the Tsars dominated, of course they did. They sent Yes I know, I don't dis people to prison, they sent them into exile. We know they ill treated them, but so they did here. But I mean in Russia they, they were use yes I know but Mm they weren't, didn't do this in this century so much here peasants did they? Well eighteen twenty four Yes but that's not this century. But, but I think er you know in, in Russia er they always had this kind of... authoritarian regime. People always were sent to Siberia, before the communists came in. So it, it didn't really Well that's right [Neil:] Yeah alright [speaker002:] make much change to the ordinary people. [Neil:] What do others think about that? I mean do, do people think that if, if [speaker002:] That's a point [Neil:] if there is a sort authoritarian political tradition [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] that that could be something which is quite difficult to, to break. [speaker002:] Yes China was even more so in China where Yeah they were used to an authoritarian er regime. I think it would be very relevant in China. And that's why I think erm the West is making an enormous mistake in thinking that eastern European countries can suddenly become cos they never have been and I can't see any... democratic now. I think demo democracy. Is there any de democracy anywhere? [Neil:] Anywhere? Well [speaker002:] There are some places were you, I mean all democracy means is that you, you have a vote Yes anything else. Yes, yes, but you would pro... see what they do after Yes mm. Have they taken any notice of you? But at least you've got the chance haven't you? At least That's, that's right you've got the chance whereas in these countries they haven't, if you haven't got a democracy. You haven't got political democracy and you can't have democracy er er er as long as er some people have the control of other other people. Some, some people possess the means of product production and, and can do what they like to many other people, they're the people But isn't it the ignorance of the people... because the people are ignorant and they actually don't know what they're voting for Ah that's it, yeah yes that's it, yes. which is the main thing. They don't know what they're voting for. Yeah yeah that's right. but still, it still comes to my point, there is no democracy Well yes no but But we, we can... we can differentiate between two, the two different sides still I think. I mean they they're all... er some, some countries which we call demo democracies erm aren't the same as we are, they're Yes well it's And there, there are shades of democracy, I mean Sweden's far more democratic than Italy and so on. Yeah. Mm. Er but they're still different from countries like Rumania and Russia and so on Yes mm which have never had a an inkling of democracy Yes that's right. there's no likelihood of getting... the same sort of regime that we've got which I know isn't democratic in that sense But when we want to teach a democracy to er to er to a different er the countries of the east, when it's... it's a big humbug I think... you can't teach them Yes we can't teach them much. Er what are we teaching them now? Market forces. Er er er market forces everywhere er... you... you'll see now it's all for the market forces and if you have market forces a few on the top and all the rest at the bottom. Mm it's happened already. mansions being built in Russia now. Yes, yes it is er Doesn't it take a long time to change people's attitude against authority. I mean I go back to Mm I mean that was... horrible police state Mm. but now and they have dispensed with that a hundred years later and more than a hundred years. So it takes a long time... think more egalitarian. cos it'd have to take a long time. no no Yes most probably no it's up to us. It doesn't have to take a long time, it's up to us here and now. yes but I mean people don't give up what they have, that's human nature. [Neil:] I'm actually very dubious about this idea indeed because I, I don't think that anybody actually likes being in a situation where they simply have to do what they're told [speaker002:] No [Neil:] and they're not allowed to question anything [speaker002:] That's right. [Neil:] and they're not allowed to disagree and answer back and argue as, I don't think anybody likes [speaker002:] Nobody likes [Neil:] being in that situation. People don't think great, this is the, this is the ideal sort of government [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] a really strong ruler who can tell me what to do so I know where I stand and so on. And there are moments in history when [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] when [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [Neil:] when, when that sort of system suddenly gets blown away. I mean I think that's really what we've seen in eastern Europe [speaker002:] Yes [Neil:] in sort of [speaker002:] Mm. [Neil:] the revolutions of nineteen eighty nine. And I don't think everybody's going around in eastern Europe thinking oh what we need is to get back to the old Stalinist system where you, you know, you had someone telling you what to do all the time. [speaker002:] Far from it. [Neil:] I think we do have to explain the, the re-establishment of authoritarian forms of government more carefully, we can't just assume that there's a kind of almost instinctive hankering after it among the mass of the population because I'm just not convinced by that at all. There have to be, there are particular reasons why er after revolutionary upheavals you very often get authoritarian forms of government and I would say in Russia... and i i in a sense it's linked with Harold's question as well about erm... the Chinese following a Stalinist model of economic reconstruction... think what you've actually got in Russia is not this sort of mass hankering after authoritarianism but you've got a situation where the bureaucracy that controls a completely devastated, backward economy, which is what they've actually got in the early nineteen twenties, where the working class democracy has just disappeared really with, with the, with the economic collapse, with the factories shutting down, with all of the old communist party militants going into the Red Army or getting sucked into the state bureaucracy... with that sort of complete collapse really, economically and socially and politically, you've got a situation where the central priority of the leadership is to build up Russian industry as quickly as possible so that Russia has got the armed forces it needs [speaker002:] Mm. [Neil:] to defend itself against foreign [speaker002:] That's right. [Neil:] foreign aggression. And that's the central politic so the i ideas of socialism and, you know, international working class revolution... goes out of the window [speaker002:] That's right. [Neil:] because there's er there's an absolute desperate er anxiety that Russia's not gonna be able to defend itself unless it industrializes very very quickly, it's [speaker002:] But surely [Neil:] that gives rise to the authoritarianism. [speaker002:] surely that also suits the, the people at the bottom because i be because the, the government is, is... producing work in effect it means that the people at the bottom have jobs and, and can earn money and, and so they're, they're lot actually improves. I mean th they, they might... don't necessarily see why it's improving and what's behind it, but their lot must improve if there's industrialization and weapons and things to be made, that they... they have jobs and presumably have more money than they had before when they were just sort of not doing very much. [Neil:] In the long term there must be improvement... as Russia industrializes, but in the short term... erm... presumably we see the development of, of a, of a sort of Stalinist totalitarianism precisely because the screws are really being turned on people... as much work is being got out of them as possible... in order to accumulate capital and to build up basic industries and, and, and to divert, I mean not just into heavy industries, but to divert er resources into arms production as well. But what they're not doing is spending loads of money on hospitals and houses and schools and raising the general living standards, they're spending it all on heavy industry... and armaments. Which is why I think the government is authoritarian, why you have secret police and gulags and so on, because they can't afford to tolerate... large numbers of people saying this isn't what the revolution was supposed to be about. [speaker002:] Mm. But Is it because of the interference with one country to another then? If they were perhaps left on their own... to sort out their own problems [Neil:] Yeah. [speaker002:] wouldn't they do it better? They may look if they looked inward instead of outward. But then they've always got the threat of... er er er I mean at the moment there really isn't that threat is there? Unless you'd er think of America, but they've got so much problems there that they've got to look within themselves now haven't they? Otherwise there's going to be... chaos there if they don't stop now and look within themselves instead of all of this interfering in other countries... which they've done in the past.... America has got to do that, Russia is broken up... so it's... lesser than it is, in fact it's going down, if only they'd look, but you see they can't do it now without outside help.... Without the outside help they can't build up there country.... So it seems everybody's got their head against a brick wall at the moment because of in fact the whole world seems worse than it's ever been. I don't suppose it is, but it seems like that to us... because we know more about it now, we see it on television. Maybe we, we're all more Well it ought to be said that the world today, in this year nineteen ninety two, is a different place from what it was a hundred years ago. Yes. Compared with then we're now a village, not a worldwide any more. We can lift the telephone and speak to people in Australia. The communications are such that it's like living in a village. So therefore we've got to look at it that way. We want to be a big village, we want to be human beings living in a human society Yes, yes of course. Well of course I do know that the, the only answer to it, of course, is for the christian way... but it's not what it, that's going to happen. But that is the only answer, the christian way. That is not the only, if it's not gonna happen it's not the only answer is it? But it is er there's not going to be any other answer. That's, that is a con that is a contradiction. But there isn't going to be any other answer because that is the only answer. [Neil:] But, but it isn't in, in, in that... people have never lived er according to er christian philosophy or indeed [speaker002:] No [Neil:] any other religious philosophy, or even any secular philosophy. I mean [speaker002:] No, no. [Neil:] I mean any of us really could sit down and draw up a list of er of things where, if we, you know, a list of rules if e war for a very small subscription... ornot many groups other and if everybody stuck by them, everything would be wonderful [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] but then of course the reality is that that [speaker002:] No [Neil:] has never happened and isn't happening now and it's [speaker002:] No [Neil:] it's never going to happen. We have to [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] actually look at the real social forces that cause people to act er in violation of all of those very desirable... philosophical principles. [speaker002:] I'd like to take up your point about [cough] is it that erm... after revolution and so on and break downs, governments er countries, say like Russian, China er some of these eastern European countries, they're... motivation goes to building their country up to resist occupation. Erm... that seems to be the main motivation but... I don't think it is, personally, er... it might be what is suggested to them... because if they look like going socialist again, then it is not what the majority of the capitalist wants, or the major powers want. They haven't been fighting all these years to get rid of communism to see it re-emerge again so... you, the confusion continues, as it is in Russia, and then you insinuate the idea that, with the breakdown of social order and so on, you must have a strong man, you must have strong arms and that's where your Hitlers and your Mussolinis and all these people come through in that little vacuum in between of disorder. It's a dangerous time. But I don't think it's the will of the people, it's sold to them.... Whereas the revolution usually comes from the straw that broke the camel's back. They've been revolting for years under the surface and then some thing happens that make it possible... course the continued revolutions have gone on through the world and because they've seen the success of a revolution in Russia... although we didn't know the full facts of it in the West, it was, it did establish a huge area in the wake of a revolution. How could it, how could it be a success when it collapsed, how could it be a success? I mean communism Ooh no no no I said the success of the revolution which swept away See communism, communism the existing force that was there. I'm not saying that it achieved er a great victory Well it wasn't a success was it? but it, it completely changed the scene and established an entirely different system. Not a good one, but it established it. [Neil:] Can, can I go back to er a question which, you asked was it a good thing [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] that there was this change of policy in the Chinese Communist Party.... [speaker002:] Mm. [Neil:] What do people think about it?... [speaker002:] Chinese Communist Party. [Neil:] That they,th they [speaker002:] Yes that you said it er Pat thought it seemed a good thing, the way you were saying it [Neil:] I wasn't meaning to suggest it was either good or bad I was to report it. [speaker002:] Well no, no I know but I thought well that doesn't seem to well that's better than what they had. There was no change in policy [cough] Mao himself said he was there to do away with feudalism. I've got it here in black and white Yes. that was his object, to do away with feud not to introduce socialism do away with feudalism. Do away with, yes of course. Which is what they done. Mm.... Well it was a good idea in as much as it returned to the people's wishes didn't it? People had been staging revolutions without a great deal of success over the years and it was seventy percent of the people who were disadvantaged wasn't it? Well if they weren't represented in the Kuomintang were they? [Neil:] But didn't the er the new Communist Party leadership simply canalize the, the discontent and use it to achieve their own political objectives rather than that discontent itself forming the basis of revolutionary change. I mean I, I rather suspect it was the, the former it wasn't th the driving force was not to be the needs of the mass of the population, but the needs of the mass of the population could be used, could be harnessed to build the Red Army [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] which would be capable of sweeping away the Kuomintang and putting into power the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. [speaker002:] Yeah. [Neil:] And I suppose, I mean if I was to answer the question was it a good thing I would have to say no. I mean I would have to say that that, that turn by the Chinese Communist Party meant that it was a turn away from the idea that it was the, the ordinary people themselves who, who should shape their own destiny. I think the Communist Party actually adhered to that idea in the nineteen twenties. nineteen twenties [speaker002:] Didn't it have to survive first though? It had to first of all survive... which is why it went on the long march wasn't it? And unless [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] it could... expand, unless it could gather strength and produce an army er it was on the road to annihilation which was... their... the course of erm Chiang Kai-Shek's wasn't it? Which persisted even through the march and so on. They had to first of all get a base from which to achieve, unfortunately of course gaining the power and the growth of the power no doubt the ideals were corrupted... and it became what you are su suggesting it did, it no longer represented the people.... Became ideological.... Yes well I... I, I mean you erm you posed the question whether it was a good or bad thing, this change... erm... I can only... the results of the change and what would have happened if the change had not taken place or... try to er... see what the change, it would seem to me that the alternative er would have been a continuance of er... possibly erm... a kind of Kuomintang erm... type of policy which encouraged erm other nationalities to develop China as... beginning to happen now. Whether that would have been, at that time, for the benefit of the mass of the Chinese people we're talking about erm... I don't think I, I rather think that the er turn that Mao took probably in the long run, in the long term, was to the benefit of the mass of people... erm the peasantry, the workers in China... because I think the alternative would have been erm international exploitation. Which is what we've got now. You're ge you're beginning to get it now, yes. Erm No we've had it all the time. Well I, I'm not sure of, here again he's making another turn isn't he and er you're going back to... as I say, what would probably have been the lesser of two evils. Erm but erm... er I, I mean there's been a double turn in, in fact. And what you're suggesting Harold is that er he's going back now to er... er the erm... er the idea of the, I'd suggest that o w w what would have been the alternative was erm international exploitation. I'm more interested in the, the kind of s so called philosophical erm ideas that have been raised, as whether this, you know, these kind of ideas of a, a kind of ideal state... are just possible. I have my doubts erm in, in that erm... certainly not within one nation... erm I, I agree with you entirely that... it's contradictory to Marxism in that erm what happened in erm with Mao was that erm he turned away from any internationalist socialist concept. But erm... and that presumably one could say that in the same way as Stalin did but that erm Trotsky's idea was much nearer to Marx. But erm it's all very easy to say you can't have socialism or this ideal state, whatever you might like to call it, unless it's all er er you know kind of international... er it's got to be, happen all over the world or it never will happen at all but erm first of all it's got to happen in your own country and it seems to me that we imagine that everybody, the mass of the people that we, we do... that er we want this ideal state. And I doubt, as a result of the last general election, whether people want that kind of state. I think that the mass of the people, as far as I can see, want the state where they can er... well... economic climate... in which they can make money for themselves and get on top. And I think this has been proved you know that ask... when people have changed their minds and said I don't know, that this is what has happened in the last er ten to fifteen years... erm and which makes me feel that once again I think that advances can only be evolutionary... erm... I think that erm, I don't know if you, anybody saw Joseph Conrad's... erm spy story on the television? It finished up with one erm very relevant, relevant to this class, quotation erm... can't remember the last part of it though, he was talking about the Indian, that he had a, talking about it and saying voodism... catholism and then the next stage erm... which I can't remember the word but in effect it meant co-operation... and you can't get that it seems to me unless you have a, a change of vision, change in erm... not just in society but in people because this is where it starts. And whether the erm the kind of ideology or the ideas are christian or Marxist erm you've got to wait till the overwhelming mass of the people see that truth before er it can be effective.... Which is why But you don't I think that, unfortunately, with China erm you know the, the whole idea is going to collapse. It's not on the path to a utopia at all. Mm. Well you don't even get co-operation like that within a single family unit do you? No, no. So I think you're right, it's got to be a massive change for people. I think it'll come but, well, we're rather impatient I think when you look back over the past hundred years you see some massive erm... changes which are quite unprecedented. Nobody could dream that, you know, things that are in existence today, a hundred years ago, you know it was, it seemed impossible. But people will probably only all co-operate when they are all threatened by the same external Yes. Yes so, so that everybody's threatened by the same thing so that lot of green, little green men landing somewhere [LAUGHTER] The whole, the whole world today whole world is threatened with pollution. Don't you know that this planet is, don't you Yes but people shut their eyes to it. don't you know that this planet is running down, that time is short. We've gotta do something about it. We've got to, we've got to do something about it. Well that may be the answer That may be the answer. But at the moment people shut their eyes to it because You see there's every, every, there's every evidence to show there's every evidence to show that those who live by profits will never cure pollution. They will never er produce a healthy environment. But we've got to do it, us, people. We've got to see the damage and then do something about it. Yes but then you see Greenpeace is going, trying to do it and You're always there's very few of you here belong to it, I can't see your badges on, we haven't got ours on at the moment... and a lot of people don't even believe in Greenpeace. If we put, all put our badges on we'd be weighed down. Because it's not practical. [LAUGHTER] So it, it's not until something really happens Why don't they believe in it?... Well maybe they're ignorant about, we've heard people say I don't believe in al any all of that, maybe they are the saviours of the world for all we know, the Greenpeace people. Maybe. We have advanced for a price [Neil:] What, what [speaker002:] and we will not give up the good things in life for Greenpeace and for a clean environment But, but you won't you w I will, you won't because ah no [Neil:] What is, I mean what is being discussed it seems to me is, is a, is a dilemma that has been debated ever since people became interested in social change, [speaker002:] Yeah Mm [Neil:] the possibility of deliberate, purposeful social improvement and I think it's much more straightforward than people generally suggest. The [speaker002:] So do I. [Neil:] the, the, the implication is always erm that you've got to make some sort of choice between... do we get the social change first, which gives rise to a different kind of people, better people, or do we first of all change the people so that they're capable of making a better world and of course it's a catch twenty two, isn't it? [speaker002:] Mm [Neil:] The reality is the, the reality is both change together. That is actually what happens if you look at processes of social change in history [speaker002:] That's right. [Neil:] that as peop that as a social crisis develops, people become interested in radical critical ideas and they start talking about how things can be improved. And the, the pressure for change builds up and as the changes begin to happen, new values, new attitudes become dominant which in turn affects how people see things so they become interested in yet greater changes. Now that's what actually happens, there's a... there's a dialectical interaction between people's ideas about what society should be like and the changes that are actually going on around them. It's not chicken and egg... it's two things interacting, that's how history actually operates. [speaker002:] That's right. yo you're suggesting is what is happening now and so many of us... he no he not just here but in... population generally belong to all sorts of pressure groups... erm whatever they may be like Greenpeace and many others... erm... really it's, it's a jolly hard slog, the point is that erm it... the lid is on the kettle the whole time and it's only, the only way that people can get anything done is by joining these organizations erm but it's a very slow business erm... but there's no other way of doing anything because you can't change what happens at the top. Everything is, is, whether it's pollution or anything else erm... you can't, you can't change it. Er n nothing ever happens up there that's why people are so disillusioned with politics altogether. I think er everything is in the people's hands really, but people are so varied and so different aren't they? You speak to a person about one thing and they've got a totally opposite point of view from you and you think well I am surprised, with all that they've gone through and yet they you know, they don't see, people don't s think along the same lines. They think... so totally different... and there's got to be a reason for that. Is it to do with education?... Is it to do with... the newspapers? A lot of it's to do with newspapers. A lot of people don't care... one way or the other as long as they're alright. Most people are quite happy if everything is fair, if things are fair they think well it's fair. But there's so much that isn't fair. And really everything is in the people's hands... if only they knew it. But people are different and want different things out of life. Yes. Yes, but then there's got to be... there's got to be [LAUGHTER] But I mean people are very kind on the whole. Aren't they? Greenpeace have a meeting somewhere I'm sure everyone goes there by car. Yeah, exactly that is what I'm sort of Yes, yes, yes of course. Maybe there's no other way they can get there. If there was a proper, a bus system that you could nip on easily... they would do that but all those That's right. things are taken away. I mean, yes Yes I mean there used to be a tram, trams running along the Southchurch Road Yes you could nip on there for a All of that's taken away from you. Yes. These things have been taken away from you. That's right. And people have to have cars By the, by the same token, you know... I mean I, I never went in a car when I was a child. I was going to say that everyo ebs absolutely everyone is against war but not many people actually joined the United Nations after the war for a very small subscription... or not many groups of people have many members in it, and of course because there were so few members in it, they a they went one particular way which a lot of people that had joined didn't agree with and so they came out of it. I it it's oh no, we don't want war, we're all against war, but nobody is prepared to bother actually to go to a meeting or, or pay a small subscription and, and then you w you could of had a very strong United Nations now the same as after the first world war, but it's the people that didn't do it. Isn't it the government rather than the people? The, the amount of money put into the United Nations by the governments Yes but it not by the people. it's also the individual isn't it? I mean if the if the individual sort of carried out UNICEF things and, and that sort of thing, they rely on the individual you've got a [Neil:] But there's there's, there's another pr sorry [speaker002:] It's alright I was only gonna say I think you've got a er erm strong battle to wage against the sort of natural freedom of people Mm. Yes. and the fear of people for each other that... that lot might take away what I've got sort of thing. And also I think, which is very strong and I think it does come out in, in the Chinese Communist Party, is the lust of power which can be even more dangerous when you convince yourself I'll do all you lot... good but I can make you all members of the Communist Party, whether you want to be or not doesn't really matter, you know, it's gonna be for the good of the country so... you fall in with this trap of assuming that you want is for their good so... it's sort of a, a dangerous thing. I think it does happen in China, I think it happened in the early part of the Russian revolution before Stalin was and we had communism with. And I think these are very dangerous erm... threads that run through the society of... er you know, the, the international community where we, we live on this fear almost. We're frightened of what will happen... and sometimes we have need to be frightened, you know, they are going to do very different things because they disagree violently with us. And that's why your idea that I think it does have to be a very gradual process where we learn to trust each other, we learn to live by our decisions that we make together rather than separate decisions. But I think there's a very strong argument... Chinese revolution... And, to a certain extent you can understand that people have to identify with something and the easiest thing to identify with is a king and a queen... erm Chinese communist leaders of various sorts, Stalin... even Karl Marx, you know, you can convince yourself that he had all the answers when of course, really, you must see these things as developing. And I think this is a very strong I think has to be taken into account whenever you're talking about history. Can I just say, do you think that erm... there's a er within the last twenty years there's such a terrific change in society, like people who know other coun er other countries know each more through television That's right. That's right. and within the last say twenty five years there's been a dramatic change in the young people's way of thinking, maybe more of them have gone to university than they did the previous twenty five years... and that there is such a difference now than there was that I mean for instance if there was a war there wouldn't, there would be far more conscientious objectors than there ever was before... far more... than erm young man saying no I'm going to fight for my country, be patriotic... I don't think you would find, for instance, the youth of this country so patriotic as they was in the last war, your country needs you. And they would be a coward for not going to war. Well they wouldn't need them anyway. No. They wouldn't need them because of the, this technology and that that's but nevertheless they do ha they would be conscripted... because they do have to have the ground troops of That's right. prove that this technology wasn't so great as... one would have thought it was without the ground troops. But that, that's just one little part of it but... and because there's been a lot of quite worldwide travel... of young people, not perhaps on a massive scale, but at least the young people of each country are more thinking... more of them Not only the young more of them, not only the young people, of course not, but I mean more of them, I know there always were some of... more than there was before... it has changed... every value, even moral values and everything like that, have changed a lot the last twenty to thirty years. That's, that is But that's not sorry an element that could come into it. I was going to say that, that, John's point about evolution, it comes slowly because Yes in nineteen, nineteen forty Mm. they said exactly what you're saying, it wasn't the last twenty years it was No it was continuous through the century. I mean Yes. in nineteen forty older people were saying... don't, don't go and, and volunteer and, and think what you're doing Well more so than they did in, in nineteen fourteen, it's [Neil:] Yes [speaker002:] a gradual evolution. The world gets smaller. [Neil:] but I, you see mm now see I'm not, I'm really not convinced by that at all, I... because... I mean it's quite clear that right across Europe in nineteen thirty nine, nineteen forty, er there was a real sense of oh no, not again [speaker002:] Yes. [Neil:] and it was because the generation whose sons were being sent to be slaughtered [speaker002:] In the first world [Neil:] had gone through it themselves. And I'm, I'm sure that was the reason, there, I mean there are all sorts of er accounts of you know how people poured onto the streets waving their bloody flags in nineteen fourteen and die in the trenches and it didn't happen in thirty nine because remember how monstrous it was [speaker002:] No that's that's what I'm saying [Neil:] I think that's the key thing in thirty nine forty and [speaker002:] But now it's forty years [Neil:] yeah, exactly, and [speaker002:] Give it another twenty years and there won't be people left who remember. [Neil:] er that's, and I and I'm thinking about the response to the Falklands and the Gulf. [speaker002:] Yeah mm [Neil:] These, these were, these were... comparatively small er wars, I mean the Falklands was an absolute... I mean farce really, it wasn't a serious complicated... and yet [speaker002:] I, I've never heard anyone saying a word about the Gulf war. [Neil:] What a approv approving? [speaker002:] I have ne I have never heard anybody saying that it was er not the right thing to do. Well I have. I stood amongst twenty thousand Ah but so did I and I did nothing but write during that time but I've never known... and everything I've said about that is true, has turned out to be true. I stood amongst twenty thousand people It wasn't a war It wasn't a war, it was an attack. [Neil:] Yes and [speaker002:] And it was a wicked cowardice thing that ever happened [Neil:] at the time virtually everybody [speaker002:] and eventually it will all have to come out. [Neil:] at the time virtually everybody supported it, I mean [speaker002:] Yes, they did. Yeah. Everybody supported it. I wrote to everybody going, in fact ev all over the world I should think... all, everybody in this country... because that is how I felt about it. I knew that it was the most wrong and wicked thing to do Yeah. and the last massacre that happened, which has never come out yet, will eventually have to come out, because there are soldiers now that are talking about it. The most coward and yet everybody you spoke to... s s thought that was a good thing, because they believed everything they saw on television... right until the girl that was the actress that cried on television and said... he pulled the plugs out of the incubators for the babies, and she was an actress... and yet that was head headline news. Yeah it was Headline news. [Neil:] So have you, have you have you now persuaded yourself that perhaps you're over optimistic about... I mean cos you were suggesting that attitudes had changed [speaker002:] Yes [Neil:] fundamentally I mean I [speaker002:] No, I am appalled at people, I can't believe that people behave the w er take the attitude the way er but they do. I can't believe that people would take this attitude.... I have gone through it Mm I have... experienced That's right how people can behave. Mm. My husband was Jewish Yeah and suddenly I mean people lived for centuries there Mm suddenly I mean they were outcasts Yeah of every... everybody threw them out, concentration camps and all that sort of thing, no? Although the majority of the people didn't know... I believe that came out after the war, but people who were affected, they knew exactly that their son or husband was in Dachau Mm And people believe they would believe this country, although [LAUGHTER] I'm very grateful to be here []. Mm. We've just gone through Armistice Day and I was... and it's always made, made me feel... there's something a little bit wrong about Armistice, it seemed more of a glorification in the way Yeah it was presented. the first Yes time we've had men who have been in war talking about the horror of war Mm. Yeah. precede it and I thought that was a significant step forward. But we can see the horror now, we only need to look at television and Yugoslavia. Ah yes We see horror now. Yeah. Mm. We see it but we see it again and we see it again and it becomes less and less of an impact. But at a time like that when... i it's... devoted to the fallen in a war and men who were the heroes of the war say it was disgusting, you know, and... and how they, they expressed themselves I thought was... was a very very significant thing, it made a very very strong impression. And I think that people who will be watching those services and the preambles to it, I think it will make an impression. I don't know whether any young people would have been watching because I don't know There's whether they, they focus to it. Well I think yeah there's a muse th th there's a museum at Carne in Normandy, I don't know if anyone's been there, we went there last year, and it, it's a new museum, a memorial museum and that's the most moving place I've ever been because it's actually designed to show how awful war is and that it shouldn't happen again, it's not a museum glorifying... war, it's a museum showing that, that it shouldn't happen, we shouldn't let it happen and there's a erm... there's a great big case as you go in which has er a statement from every country that took part in the war, including Germany, and they're all there, they're all there together saying that you shouldn't... you shouldn't let it happen... and, and... and I, I thought that was the sort o you know i i it was very impressive because i it wasn't glorifying anybody, it wasn't saying we won the war, you lost the war it was... it was a, a coming together to say that it shouldn't happen. But you see er Mm don't think that's a new idea, I think we were all brought up on that idea. [Neil:] And sure I, I'm sure that the, the... I mean th th the sentiment is more or less universal, I mean virtually everybody is opposed to war and yet again and again and again the leaders, who pay lip service to these ideas, launch another war but it's always a just war, this time it's always justified [speaker002:] Mm yeah [Neil:] and they've got no alternative, otherwise we're gonna get walked all over. [speaker002:] But it's only, it's only a few people that do it [Neil:] Oh yes it is. [speaker002:] I mean are we all er er [Neil:] yes it is [speaker002:] something wrong with all the people that allow a few people to do this? I mean it's such a very small people isn't it? Yeah yeah Why don't they put all the leaders of all the countries up in the air Yes, yes I always used to think that, why can't, why can't they push Mrs Thatcher [Neil:] John I think this, this is wh, I think this ought to be the last contribution. [speaker002:] I'm trying to sort out in my mind what is the difference between these national wars er with er the use of violence and the kind of civil wars for social change er you can call it, or revolution, er involves er a civil war involves violence. Now you see I don't think that you can... say I'm all against national war but, but you're in favour of a violent revolution Mm to [LAUGHTER] [] change things for the good. Er I can't, you know, there seems to be an inconsistency in so many people who are against national wars but er would say that what we need is a revolutionary situation in order to change things for the better within society. Is there a difference? [Neil:] Well I think [speaker002:] Not so violent as war surely? Oh I don't know. [Neil:] I was going to suggest that this is er, I mean I've made a note of this question, that we ought to return to it next time [speaker002:] Yeah [Neil:] ready to go.... [speaker002:] this one's been brought back if anyone wanted to this is the book he was talking about that's been brought back if anyone wants it. No?

[speaker002:] Okay,le let's get started! We're, we're going to conclude now the discussion of the various ways in which, bacteria, in particular er... lead to the production of infective disease... and really to centre round, centres round the discussion of the pathogenesis, that is the mechanism by which the disease is produced... and lunanspach. And I hope to run through today, basically, a set of examples of specific infective positions which show particular virulence factors... er manifest themselves in terms of clinical disease. We start with er er... a fine and exciting topic for Monday morning... the topic of boils and in their finalist form... they're shown here as starike. But, the sa the very same organisms responsible for that relatively moderate appearance can also produce blocked er... region of Prince Charles, the carbuncle with which in it's most er... florid form can break down and produce the series, but really effectively interconnecting. If we... sample one of these cavities in which the process is er... which produce boils er... are going on, almost inevitably we find this organism staphylococcusorius... and offspotulates have been clearly fulfilled with organism and this disease... most notably by a bunch of of medical students who are subjected to all sorts of tortures by their professor of microbiology back in the nineteen fifties.... And over the years it's been possible... to identify a number of factors produced by these bacteria that seem to make sense in terms of the pathology and the conditions. Now the pathology is by... a chief information... and i in fact, the chief information could be provoked merely by the presence of organisms. You will, you will recognise... from your immunology... that the presence is certainly foreign... antigenic materials... can lead... immediately to, to the acute alternatives. But, notable inside... er... the material... that characterises the boils and abscesses, there is a cell death, both of bacteria and of the... both the defending cells and the structural cells. And, to a very large extent tri cell death can be related to the ability... of staph orius to produce elicit toxins, toxins which actually leave the cell death and. But the characteristic of this puss forming organism is that the legions it produces are wooled off, that is they're relatively localized. And... although the er, the causal relationship is not completely established, it is a very helpful way of remembering that one of the... principle distinguishing features of this organism which separates it from other members of the genus staphylococcus... it pr it produces this enzyme to coagulate things on... and the effects of this enzyme are illustrated here as against the control preparation, you see... a clot form due to the action of this enzyme on clotting practice which has been put into this... test tube serum. So this is almost certain a virulence factor but is also very useful in differentiating... pathogenic species of staphylococci from non-pathogenic species. And, as as you'll be hearing in later... er stages of the course... there are many non-pathogenic species... of staphylococci. It's worth also mentioning, since you saw it in the practical class, that staphylococci in general produce this enzyme catalase... all of these er lo thi this is the enzyme which breaks down hydrogen peroxide and detoxifies it. All of these factors together... lead us an to recognise as it a puss forming organism... which... is often recognised by the term hyogenic organism, ability to produce puss in er the form of reactions... it initiates. Now I want... at least, to intro introduce the possibility in the series of diagrams I'm going to show you in this lecture... that we can relate it to the four stages... of pathogenesis that we, we outline briefly... er, in the last lecture. The first stage being the establishment, the next stage being penetration, the third stage being damage, what actually produces the damage in the disease, and the fourth stage is, if the disease is going to last for any period of time... the ability of the organism to persist. I'm going to introduce this... abbreviated momentictiture here in the hope that during the course of the lecture I'll be able to add... comments about which of these factors lead to which of these results. Er, but if we run out of time and I find we haven't we we we can't fit it all in I'd like you all to attempt... to do this for yourselves after er, the lecture is over. Okay? So, establishment for staphylococcusorius is often not an important feature because... in the majority of infections we're talking about an endogenous infection, the organism was there in the first place. Penetration... in many instances is not related to a property of the organism itself, in most instances it's re related to... some form of injury in which the organism is moved from it's normal skin location to a deep tissue location. So we won't mention these factors here, although... in... in some instances... er, these... properties are important to talk about for staph orius. The damage, is fairly obvious to see is produced by... these two... and it's worth pointing out that persistence... can be related to this catalase enzyme. Staphylococci have some degree of resistance to killing by phagocytes and yo you should recall that phagocytes... er, one of the mechanisms by which phagocytes kill intercellular organisms is the production of reactive oxygen intermediates... and catalase is one of the ways that these can... detoxified... and th there's... fairly good evidence that the catalase enzyme enables... er,staph orius to persist. Okay. So, that's, that's the first example of a very common condition.... Let's move on now to consider a very important... type of infection... such as meningitis. You recognise by... particularly common in children not recognised by the particular posture that they adopt and extended neck, rigid neck due to the inflammation of le, lymphees... which I will resist being a reflection of the neck, completely rigidly. It's a disease which, if it a, they're fortunate enough to re, recover from the disease, if it's been severe enough the inflammation may have... involved... er, some of the cranial nerves, and here we can see a third nerve palsy er as a result of... er, the process. If you take a sample... er, of ce the cera cereblis fluid... during the course of acute bacteria meningitis you will find it's drowning, drowning, not due the fact that it's an organism, but present, being due to the presence of... puss cells. This is another biogenical fluid... and, in about a third of the cases you will find... this, very faintly with them [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] which you can just about see here... a in conjunction with the puss cells with which it is... busily [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] the life and death, life and death... tackle. This organism... is the fastidious grand negative... rod you saw in the erm... practical class... innocuous influenzi.... And it is a... a very important pathogen responsible for about a third of the cases of meningitis in in this country... almost exclusively in children. Now, the process we recognise... in the pa pathogenesis... of meningitis due to this organism... is as follows, first of all...... and then it is able, by, mechanisms not completely described but... we could probably involve this transpschycosis er phenomenon that er, I I briefly mentioned last time. First of all, penetrates from the into the bloodstream and then... into the cerebral spinal fluid. Now... the basis for the pathogenesis is not well enough established for us to expect you to understand... the details of how it achieves these processes, but one thing which is... remarkably clear... is that the organism... is a capsule producing organism... and that once it gets into the er... cerebral spinal fluid that predominately is an acute inflammatory. [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] We do recognise establishment factors, that is... adhesions... in this part of the process... and it is very clear that the capsule... is one of the factors which allows the organism to pe, persist because it helps the organism to resist phagocytosis. You'll notice that the damage in this instance is actually the result of the acute inflammatory response, not particularly some form of direct noxious effect... of the organism, so... the contribution of the host is absolutely critical. Now, the reason we... we focus on the capsule as illustrated on the right here... is... that... hymophylus... have many different capsular types, but but only one type appears to be associated with meningitis.... This type B capsule refers to a particular pulse [speaker001:] [cough] [speaker002:] and... has... it's so important in the pathogenesis of the capsule that antibodies to it... can be used er,ca, er can actually completely prevent the disease... and we end up with a capsule vaccine based on the type B pulse. Plus, referencing with the other two organisms which produce... meningitis in, in humans... it is very prominent that both of these, licea meninigitipitus... and staphylococcus are also very prominent capsule mechanisms. Hello! [speaker001:] That's like the type. [speaker002:] H I for hymopholus... influenzi. And that's, that H I is actually the... th th H, H I B is the acronym for the vaccine. There's a new vaccine introduced last October... which is being er, used for the first time in this country to prevent meningitis in children. [speaker001:] Is that just the name of the vaccine? [speaker002:] H, well H I B is a, an abbreviation for the strain of hymopholus that produces the infection, but the name of the vaccine the H I B vaccine, yeah. Okay? I should say that a, a lot of this information will be covered again... during this course, what I'm trying to do now is to bring together... the... the themes in a pathogenesis of infection that I introduced last week into the practical context of clinical infections. And to to, to try and illustrate to you why we focus on particular virulence factors for particular organisms.... Move on now to... to look at... an area that's er... not frequently... er... doesn't impinge a great deal on life in this country but it certainly does for travellers... and for many people in the developing world. This is the topic of secretory diarrhoea... produced by infective agents. This is a dramatic disorder of the small intestine which produces a massive outflow of water electrolytes that can be fatal within a matter of hours after the onset of disease! We recognise... two agents... which are er, responsible in bacterial causes of this process,th there are many others but these are certainly the most important. choleri, the cholera vacilus... and... er, an acronym here, ETEC, I wouldn't worry about... taking down the full er, er..., it actually stands for e entrotoxigenic ecolytes, it's a strain or a group of ecolars... that are able to produce this effect. These diseases are common in areas er where an out pouring of water from the individual is squared up with a ou, out pouring of people into the water, then you can appreciate that that transmission... is very er, readily promoted under those circumstances. The effects on the, the individual are very dramatic! Dehydration, er can... produce death within a matter of fe, er a few hours and... and an understanding of the mechanism by which this dehydration... leads us into... one of the most effective forms of heat treatment er, ever produced. A prominent feature of secretory diarrhoea is that... effective and normal bowel in,yo you ca, you can ignore this... sign... are almost indistinguishable, so despite this dramatic change in the physiology of the small bowel, borthalogically it actually looks quite normal. And you have a normal meconium. Now, the organisms that produce... this effect haven't, have... this target which is around zero for the choleri, the villi of a small intestine... and... the... both of these organisms have... pro... prominent adhesion mechanisms. Let's just show you something with that. In an affected small bowel... you will see... the grey background with these tiny little curved... rods present... the whole area of the er, the villi is covered by the organisms which are er... stuck down effectively by the processes which you ca, you can't really see them in the transmission... micrograph, but they are attached to specific receptors on the surface of the entrocite membrane.... Once they've got there, the organism... really goes no further. Both... the cholera organism... and the ETEC organism... secrete toxins... referred to here as C T for cholera toxin and LT for the le Lethane toxin. It is... very striking that these toxins are actually almost exactly the same molecule! So that although these are... er... fairly different relatives in terms of bacteria... it's striking that the ETEC organism has been able to acquire in some way almost exactly the same gene that's present in choleri. And, this toxin when released from these tightly organisms... disorders the er... the physiological activity of the lining cells, the empha cells. The molecular... oh we've lost a slide! The molecular basis for this is very well understood and... forms one of the important themes in... er... the effects of e, exotoxin in human cells. This toxin is composed of two components er, of binding components and... active component. Binding component binds to specific receptors on the emphacyte and the active component penetrates into the cell and... inactivates the controlling mechanism on the production of. And this is the cell that er, is possessed by several other toxins that affect, not just the gut but other parts of the body as well.... I should point out that in... one of the features of adhesions is that it takes two to tango, so to speak! Where specific adhesions are involved... the... the, the structures that are, are most commonly associated with a, require a specific receptor... for the adhesion reaction to take place... and that if... the potential host doesn't have specific receptor... they're not susceptible to that particular strain of organisms.... Okay. Let's move on to look at another... fairly dramatic infection... which is a case of diphtheria.... That, which is er... a infection ca characterized by this... profuse athema of th the... base of the neck, referred to as bull neck... if you look inside this child's er pharynx you see this very messy... inflammatory process at the back and the whole of the respiratory mucosa is beginning to detach in what's referred to as a pseudo-membrane. In, fatal cases this pseudo- membrane can extend right from the top of the respiratory track here down into bronchi, and you can get these enormous casts of mucrotic material... er, starting in the pharynx and working their way right down in the bronchi.... It's been known for a very long time that from these cases you can isolate this organism C diphtheria bacterium...... which you saw in the practical classes and has this distinctive stayed property where er certain granules can be stayed up and also the arrangement of the cells is rather reminiscent of what called Chinese lettering.... The picture, the acute picture which you've just seen is... virtually exclusively due to the production of a toxin... and that toxin produces really... a necrotic pharyngitis... inflammation of the pharynx... associated with necrosis and detachment... of what we call the pseudo-membrane. In... very severe cases... the toxin gets into the blood stream and their paralytic effects... toxin i i is to some extent a neuro-toxin, and also there are effects of the heart. So... although... for the majority of cases... that a fatal... as a result of diphtheria... the fact that, due actually to the pharyngitis and the pseudo- membrane obstructing the respiratory passage. In later stages, the minority of cases may go on to produce these results.... Well this is a disease due to another exotoxin... which, in practical terms is of importance to you because it's the basis for a test for identifying the. The toxin... may or may not be present in strains of... er... C diphtheria... and this is... just an immunological test so I wo won't explain it in detail but what you can see is a... a strip of er, filter paper which has been bathed in anti-toxin and... growth of various different strains of the organism... erm... which, some of which do produce the toxin... you can see lines of precipitation here... and some of which don't produce the toxin. And that test... has to be applied to es each eyslate... because... this toxin is not part of the genome of... Cherani bacteria diphtheria, it's actually a farged mediated toxin, it's actually encoded for by a bacteria farged. So when [speaker001:] What's paresis then? [speaker002:] Paresis, paralysis. [speaker001:] Oh! [speaker002:] I thought you were doing neuro-sciences course? The... as I said this, this is required for identification for the organism, but... the to the toxin has been... recognised for a very, very long time and... right from er, the early days... the possibility of inactivating the biological properties of a toxin... while retaining their immunological properties has been attractive to people seeking to prevent these diseases. And, if you treat... this toxin with something like... formaldehyde or ethanol, you end up by inactivating it's... toxic properties and... you end up with what, what we call a... toxoid, something that retains immunological properties, it's able to stimulate specific immunity to the toxin... but it doesn't have... any of the toxic effects... and we end up with this toxoid vaccine... against diphtheria.... And all of you, I would expect, have received the toxoid vaccine against diphtheria. Curiously it has led effectively to the irradification of Cherani bacterium diphtheria from the circulating respiratory flora in this country... and the reasons for that are are quite obscure! Another im prominent toxoid vaccine which you should all have received and be... regularly receiving boosters for is the tetanus... vaccine, and really, a very similar situation pertains here, that the toxin is so important in the pathogenesis of disease, tetanus, that simply immunity to that one factor can lead to immunity... er... to the disease as a whole.... So, I've gone through... a series of examples... of exotoxins... I want to just... er, as far as is possible summarize... the general properties of exotoxins. First thing to be said about them is that they're all proteins... covering a very wide range of molecular weights... between three and three hundred kilobocals... three thousand to three hundred thousand bocals. And they have very specific impacts because they all result... their effective result on an interaction with a specific receptor... and... er... an activity I would express on that receptor or as a result of the er... erm... the uptake of the toxins. Consequently,. As I've indicated before... you can divide them into patha and physiological effects... and... membrane damage more specifically than what I said before... membrane damage is the... i i is a particularly important thing.... Your patha and physiological toxins are often sub-unital structure... and... they make the most, the momegictiture most widely used... is an A plus B sub-unit structure.... The B is a receptor... and A is often, although by no means always, an enzyme... and... in the case the cholera toxin... rotusis toxin... and... several other erm pseudo-membrane toxins and several others, diphtheria toxin... they have the specific A viral... I think they put the... group onto a target molecule and disorder itself. The membrane doesn't use toxins... like the lytic toxins that staphylococcusorius expressed er... they're often detected by their immunelytic properties, see the in the er, in the bacterial passage.... I'm sure you've experienced in many instances here, the effect of lytic toxins... in er a boil or some... some other unpleasant minor lesion!... Gonna go on now... to talk about a severe... condition... which may start out... that with a minor... skin rash like this, this is called a petechial... skin rash... they later progress to rather more generalised rash... and in it's most severe form... it's mucrotic effects on the skin... and... er, obviously a lethal outcome! This type of picture is almost exclusively... related to the isolation of grand negative organisms from the blood, these may be phacili or... cocci, doesn't really make any... er, any difference. It's the grand nega negative... cell wall structure... that seems to matter. And we now know... that these... ghastly effects are the results of... what we referred to in the last lecture endotoxins.... You will hear... in... considerable detail in a later lecture about how... septic shock and endotoxin... work. At this stage it's worth remarking that wa... there are perhaps three... prominent features of endotoxin effects... first of all, they promote physcocine release and th the the two pro, prominent phsycocines affected are I O one, Interlooping one... and TMF, tumourmacrosis factor which I... hope you heard about in the... immunology course. I O one is... the molecule most closely associated with the mi, the effects of lodose endotoxin... and that is... fever... I O one... er, when released into the blood sys bloodstream... affects the hypothalamus and... th i one of the principle reasons why... infective conditions lead to fever. In more severe situations there's... uncontrolled continent acto activation... and uncontrolled clotting factor, activation and it's really that last... feature that's particularly responsible for the er... er... ghastly skin disease you saw... i in the last sla, in the previous slide!... Now the eff... the endotoxin as I've... is almost exclusively associated... with the grand negative cell wall.... And again in... abbreviated form... that, I just want to take you through the molecular basis for endotoxin action. Here is the positive wall with it's... large... er... expansive petroglycan... grand negative with an inner... and an outer membrane, and the petroglycan sandwiched in between. Here we have a diagram of a grand negative organism with it's inner membrane and outer membrane... illustrated here. Very easy to reproduce endotoxic shock in in experimental animals and... er, it was found fairly early on that... the effects, er the endotoxic effects were almost exclusively associated with the outer membrane. And detailed chemical strains of the outer membrane... show that it has a slightly different structure from normal unit membranes. Expand that up, you'll end up with... a normal inner leaflet to the membrane, a phospholipids... but... the outer the, er the outer layer is almost exclusively... composed of this stuff, lycropolysacrulite... I mentioned this in an earlier lecture but we need to go into... in a little bit more detail.... This lycropolysacrulite is... can then be broken up into three different sections... the internal membrane section... is referred as lipid A. Lipids in general are not very antigenic erm... er... it's interesting... to note that lipid A, when it's purified from the other components is... almost totally responsible for the toxic amount... of any property. The polysacurised component of composed of a four region... to which the lipids are attached, and that outer region is... er, it extends out into the environment....... Now, the importance here is that... both of these polysacrulite components are based in general the outer region is highly variable, that's to say that... very, er that most of organisms... possess a unique outer region to that polysacrulite. And by contrast, the poor region, certainly amongst the grand negative bacilli... is very similar across a wide range of different species... and this provides a very important opportunity to produce immunity to endotoxin directed against the core... and... this... possibility has recently been exploited by a production of the molecule antibody directed against the core... polysacride of the erm... er er, of... ecoli. So, this has been shown to be effective in... moderating... the toxic... events which occur in grand negative shock. Building on this approach... and something which I think you'll see... certainly during the course of your... your medical studies... antibodies directed against... tumourler proce, tumourler process factor are now being used to try and interrupt the chain of events... at a slightly later stage.... So that's... that's the endotoxin story. I want now just to summarise and er... some of these... the features I'm going to point out I've... I've already stated so you may... may just want to sit back and just take this in.... If we compare endo and exotoxins... endotoxins are only associated with grand negative organisms... whereas exotoxins maybe produced by either grand negative... or grand positive.... Endotoxins are exclusively cell associated in their production.... Exotoxins may also be cell associated, they've, they may not be a sa, they're not a structural component, but, particularly in grand negatives... exotoxins er, are released first into the peraplasmic space, the space between the two membranes, and... the the actual release... into the medium... er, may require cell. So,tha they are both cell associated and cell free.... Endotoxin... from different organisms... although it may be of... of different potency... has essentially the same biological effects. So, a wide variety of different organisms... can produce endotoxic shock. But exotoxins from different organisms... produce... really very different... biological effects. Even, even though they may be er,the they may work as a result of different o of the same enzyme activity in some cases... the target for that enzyme activity... and the receptors that have put it into the specific cells that are targeted... lead to really very different biological effects. In general terms... endotoxins are a very low potency... about point... O one of a gram is lethal to one person... some exotoxins are incredibly potent, and they're being the, the subject of er... a certain amount of er... weapons research. The same goes for O one of a gram... for example, toxin and it gives you a hundred thousand... er as as I've... indicated here, there's a, a wide range for the potency.... Endotoxins are heat stable, and this is very important when we... try to produce materials that are safe... for intravenous injection. Whereas, for the most part exotoxins are... destroyed by heat into a hundred degrees centigrade. And finally... treatment with er... formaldehyde or ethanol has no effects on endotoxins... but... in a number of instances... formaldehyde or ethanol will lead to... er, the production... of toxoid. So, I think you should now have... a very clear basis for discriminating between the two sorts of... two sorts of toxin.... And... we can move safely on to another... another, and the final really, final topic about the patterns... of pathogenesis.... Let's move on now, briefly, to consider this disease, tuberculosis.... This is a, a normal test x- ray... the commonest manifestation of tuberculosis is... the disease of des destructive regions... in the upper poles... of the lungs... and pathologically... the very nasty destructive lesions er, are appearing... in... in the area. And in a mi, in a minority of cases... you may get a sort of forminant region, this is... er small scale, it's perhaps a centimetre apart, across... a series of lung lesions containing these little necrotic due to the er... the presence of tubercle... cila.... Although this was... this organism, microbacterium tuberculosis, named tuberculosis... was discovered back in eighteen eighty... we... we really understand the pathogenesis of the disease very poorly!... What we know for sure is... is really outlined here.... The organism is in... i is... inspired into the alveolar spaces... and it's taken up by alveolar, the standard... er abbreviation for macrophage... and, the organism... i in contrast to many others which we've sort of er... die fairly rapidly after being taken up by these phagocytic cells, says Goodee! That was exactly what I wanted to happen! And it grows... very rapidly, within macrophages... and... after er... a period of time is actually disseminated into the circulation. Now, this happens in nearly all... er... cases o of tuberculosis... but, interesting, the vast majority... of infections microbacterium tuberculosis are asymptomatic... and the reason for that is that after a period of growth and dissemination does not lead to clinical symptoms, cell mediated immunity, C M I, comes into... comes into play... and you end up with a balance between the macrophages, and fi... and M T B, where there's a constant turnover of... macrophages... dying, and M T B... winning out. [speaker001:] Excuse me! [speaker002:] Hello! Yep? [speaker001:] What's the M T B? [speaker002:] Microbacterium tuberculosis. Okay. Thank you.... You have a balance between the effects of macrophages which have been activated by... cell mediator immunity... and... the lethal effects of microbacterium tuberculosis. In individuals... in whom some mediated immunity is not well developed... the growth and defemination,de defemination phase may take over altogether. If the C M I doesn't lead to this kind of balance... then... it can have this sort of effect... and... get rapidly fatal tuberculosis occurring at the time of the primary... infection. But it's believed that the majority of cases of tuberculosis, that we actually see, are so called post-primary tuberculosis where all of this process is taking place asymptomatically... and... the host is in this state of balance but something else comes along and stresses cell mediated immunity... and the control breaks down so that th... the organism M T B... wins out very dramatically over the, over the macrophages and you end up with this post-primary pattern... of tuberculosis. An example of th, of the stress might be... the administration of steroids... or the occurrence of another disease, most notably, in this day and age of course, aids, would lead to... T B coming out in this way. [speaker001:] Is this a type of miliary? [speaker002:] Miliary er i... it... it refers, well you've heard of millet seed and it's... it refers to a seeding of many different lesions... er, around the body... it means the disseminated form of... of tuberculosis where the lesions occur all over the place. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] You'll hear, you'll hear these things repeated many times again, both in the pathology, and in the microbiology course.... So, that's er, really a very different pattern of infections... where the virulence factors are not clearly identified. Let me just finish off now... by... illustrating what leads... to the outcome and how a a of a particular infectious condition... and the combination of the factors that we think lead to these outcomes. I think, the best analogy I can produce for you is that a... a balance... in which... various factors act on the side of the host... and various factors act on the side of the organism, and the outcome... is disease and death if the organism wins out... and outcome is resistance or recovery... if the... the host wins out. And we could... really, add in for each organism in different weights... the significance of each of the factors on each side. So, for example, if we took diphtheria... we could say that the toxin... was... by far the most important and weighty factor, and that if we knock the toxin out... then the disease can't occur. And, similarly on the... the host side, we could say that antibody was the most important feature. In... another example in tuberculosis... we could say that the ability of the organism to persist inside macrophages... was the most important feature... and that effective cell mediated immunity... was the most important feature... on the host side. So, I hope I've introduced to you the very different styles by which microbes produce disease... and indicated the balance... of factors involved.

[Wendy:] Erm... yeah. Well I Ooh. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah, that needs to be signed and then we can use... these and any future occasions when we're all in the same place. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] At the same time.... What a very left-handed... [Clare:] Person. [Wendy:] writing position you have. [Clare:] Yeah. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] Yeah.... That's a v [Derek:] How can you be very left handed? [Wendy:] Well no, no it was the writing position which is... very typically left-handed, rather than you being very [Derek:] Ah. [Wendy:] left-handed if you see what I mean. That that's the [Clare:] You curl round. Yes. [Wendy:] Rather than turning the paper but curling your hand round. Erm it's a product of repressive seconda or er primary education isn't it. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] You will be right-handed. No I won't. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] You will be right-handed dammit and we won't let you turn your paper. [Derek:] Yes. I had a teacher for all of three months tried to make me write with my right hand. Didn't last. [Wendy:] It happens. Erm... [Clare:] Minutes of the last meeting. [Wendy:] Yeah they're not really minutes, they're they're just what I could remember afterwards. I was going to make the minutes up from the tape you see. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [clears throat] [Derek:] Oh yes. [David:] Ah. Of course. [Wendy:] Er [LAUGHTER] of course. Okay, well... I think what we did was... erm... Right we talked about the list of exclusions, things that we can't record because Maureen's already done them. [Clare:] Mm. [David:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Wendy:] Erm now I was supposed to check and I'm afraid I haven't, whether we still need to get sermons from Scotland and Liverpool. [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm... but I will check. I've got to talk to them tomorrow. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm... I've got a note, or I had a note to write to the... admin at the university and I have done, erm saying that... Derek's been approaching people, apologising for not writing beforehand and saying that Derek's been approaching people and if they've got a problem they should write back P D Q. Oh and by the way how about recording... erm meetings of the administration erm [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] . I haven't written to the head of the Linguistics Department. Erm but I don't think that's as important. But I will do it. But I might do it by talking to them rather than by writing to them. It's friendly. Erm... Oh dear this is going to be a long list of things I was supposed to do but didn't. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Don't worry. [Wendy:] Erm... we talked about David's attempt to get union meetings. Erm [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] Colin rang Colin rung back and said erm... no way Jose. [Derek:] Oh. [Clare:] In regards to what? [Wendy:] Erm... to regard er Recording trade union union meetings. [Clare:] Ah. [Wendy:] Er which is fair enough. [Derek:] Did he say why? [Wendy:] Did he say why [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] when you talked to him? [David:] He said he said erm... he thought people might be less willing to... to speak at the meeting if they knew it was being recorded, which seems entirely reasonable. [Derek:] Yeah. [cough] [Wendy:] Erm... yeah I mean you know [David:] There's nothing we can really do to. [Wendy:] No. Er whatever reasons people give we have to accept as reasonable reasons. Reasonable re Yeah. Whatever. [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] ... Erm... I've also got a note here to write to Karen. Which I again haven't done. [David:] Right. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm have you been doing anything else at work [David:] Erm [Wendy:] about getting mock interviews or interviews or whatever? [David:] No I haven't. Erm. [Wendy:] Right, okay. Well I'll... maintain that as a note to er... write to this person. Erm Clare suggested that Mike record that presentation he's doing. I asked him, he was negative, erm and I've I've got a feeling he never even turned up [LAUGHTER] for it anyway. [] [Clare:] Erm... [Wendy:] He was quote ill unquote. [Clare:] It's next week it's [Wendy:] It is? [Clare:] Friday next week. [Wendy:] I'll badger him again. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm I'll be talking to him tonight. [Clare:] You try him again. [Wendy:] So I'll jump up and down on his metaphorical toes and see what happens. Erm I tried phoning James the the place where he's actually doing this training course. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] And the legendary E, who's the person I wrote to there, [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] is erm... stunningly hard to track down. Er really quite impressive actually. Erm... they obviously have the right person teaching this management course if you know that's one of the... prime functions of a manager is to be unavailable at all times. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] That's right. [Wendy:] Erm so she is in fact unavailable at all times. So I'm going to keep trying on Monday. [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] Erm... somebody, and I think it was Derek, and I put down Derek as a guess, was supposed to be getting a list of local area MPs to whom I can then write. [Derek:] Aha. I didn't. [Wendy:] You didn't. [Derek:] I completely forgot about it. [Wendy:] No problem. [Derek:] I shall write it down this time. [Wendy:] Good-oh. [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] I was supposed to and again haven't asked Spike about finding out erm... when and where by-elections are coming up. [Derek:] I don't think there are any coming up. They would be very big news at the moment given how small the government majority is. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Given the last two terms, the government had over a hundred majority, a by-election wasn't important. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] With a twenty-one majority it becomes important cos all it needs is eleven by-elections. [Wendy:] Yeah. There are council elections in York coming up in May. Erm [David:] . [Wendy:] Council elections are something that we need to look at in other areas. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm but I'm not sure how we go about that. [Derek:] I shall enquire er if... th there's Well... I'll I guess I'll get in touch with erm... the er town hall in York [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] and ask about council elections. Er who... who the candidates have to er... make their candidacy known to, who's the returning officer and so [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] on and that way you can find out who the candidates are, and once we know who the candidates are we can start going out and seeing if they have public meetings or whatever. [Wendy:] Yes. Yeah. Erm... I think it would be useful to try and find similar local elections erm... in other areas. Well obviously it'd be useful. But I don't know how we'd go about that other than just writing to town councils. Just writing general letters to to... town councils. [Derek:] Well... there's no reason not to do that since we'll also be wanting to see if we can tape council meetings. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] Mm. [Derek:] So it's a it's a double... [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] ... use. [Wendy:] Everywhere has a town council doesn't it? [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] Everywhere that's got a postal address has a [LAUGHTER] town council [] at that post town really doesn't it. I mean... [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] postal towns tend to be the place where the council is. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] So if I just arbitrarily write to... a selection in every one of the areas we're covering. [David:] . [Wendy:] Yeah. Seems reasonable. Erm... Okey-doke. Der-de-der-de-der, where are we?... Erm... David did you check with the town hall about [David:] No.. [Wendy:] upcoming weddings? Right. [David:] . [Wendy:] That's that's on the list. Somebody... erm [LAUGHTER] said they were going to, and it wasn't me so it was one of you three, [] said they were going to check if the ball was having a speaker this year. Erm and [Derek:] I definitely didn't say that. I don't know who [Wendy:] Well... it was men it was [Derek:] I I I I [Wendy:] mentioned as a plan. [Derek:] I can check it then. [Wendy:] Erm... and also check whether any of the college dinners this... term or year,... next term whatever, are going to be having a speaker. Erm... got a note here that you're you two aren't going away till May. I [Derek:] Uh-huh. [Wendy:] presume that's still true. [Clare:] It is. [Derek:] This is still the case. [Wendy:] Erm [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Well th it is the case that we're not going we're definitely not going away before May [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] and we have yet to be contacted erm despite th the fact that at the time we had our last meeting the thing was supposed to be in the post. [Wendy:] What thing? What's happening? [Derek:] Er er th th this is this is supposed to be the er the next stage of the travel agents contacting us. [Wendy:] Oh right. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Erm and er I phoned them on Thursday before our last meeting and to be told Oh it's in the post, we're contacting you. [Wendy:] Aha. [Derek:] And it hasn't turned up yet. [Wendy:] This isn't that thing is it? [Derek:] . [Clare:] . [Wendy:] , whatever. Oh, right. [Derek:] It's er th th [Wendy:] I've been [LAUGHTER] hearing people moaning about that while I was temping. [Derek:] There have not been good things. [Wendy:] Yeah. [David:] Yeah. But... [Wendy:] Erm... Right, okay.... Erm... I've got a note to contact people I know in Wales which again I haven't done but again I shall. Erm... I now have a list of all our stock, which means I know where it all is and how much of it there is which is nice but not directly relevant to this meeting. Erm... Oh has anybody got any receipts to give to me? Erm sort of for tapes or... whatever? [Clare:] I've got one but it's not here so I [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] shall forward it to you. [Wendy:] Okey-doke. No rush since I can't afford to pay. Er [sigh]... you sent a tape recorder to your dad. [Derek:] Er [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] You're sending a tape recorder to your [Derek:] I'm sending a tape recorder to my dad. I I I was delayed a little in that. Basically I I've got a l a l a whole list of things that I didn't get done this week either. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm... yeah if you need me to buy the postage direct then [Derek:] No. [Wendy:] by all means package it up and I'll take away. [Derek:] No problem. No problem, [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] I can get it done. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] It was just incompetence that I didn't get it done this week. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] I'm very annoyed with myself that it's got round to... [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Okey-doke. [] [Derek:] the end of the week and I was still thinking it's not done. [Wendy:] Erm... I have sent a t tape recorder to my father-in-common-law in Liverpool, and I need the address for him to send it on to. [Clare:] Right. I down there is a letter to... my contact in Liverpool. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Erm [Wendy:] [groan] [Clare:] that's as much of the address as I know. In that envelope is a letter explaining... what I would like. [Wendy:] Right. I'll phone my father-in-common-law and get him to look up the address the er postcode in his [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Thompson's. [Clare:] Erm [Wendy:] Erm... Right. [Clare:] And er... that... is [Wendy:] Shall I shall I look at this or or... [Clare:] No no. [Wendy:] No I can't because it's sealed. You're gonna just post that. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm... [Clare:] It it generally explains to Clive what it is [Wendy:] Yeah [Clare:] I would like him to do, and I've put information [Wendy:] Okay. [Clare:] in there for him. [Wendy:] Right, well I'll take that address down. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] In a moment. Erm... Dum-de-dum. Oh I dug out my, or the company's in fact, membership of P C W World, erm and tomorrow I've got a note to phone them and ask them how much their keyboards are for Amstrads. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] cos they er they're bound to be cheaper than they are in the shops. [Clare:] Okay. Can you also ask them what their servicing rate is for a a keyboard. [Wendy:] Okey-doke. Right.. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] do that, I'll listen to this tape through tonight. Erm... dum-dum-dum. That's just a note of what we just did.... [LAUGHTER] I also didn't ask erm about the status of Eire as a place for getting recordings from. Something else I'll do tomorrow.... Erm... when are you going to Boston Spa? [Derek:] Er it's going to be... a week on Wednesday now I think. [Wendy:] Wednesday week, right. I phoned and got the address and name, [Derek:] Ah. [Wendy:] but I haven't written, erm cos I wanted to check exactly what day you'd be going... before I did. That's it really. Erm [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] they're fairly sketchy notes but... never mind. This time, I'll try and make up minutes and get them out, cos it helps I think. Erm... Right, well, that's basically my input except... erm Wednesday daytime, what are you doing? [Derek:] Er... I don't have to be doing anything other than er working for. [Wendy:] Right, okay. [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] ,. Erm explanation. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] Erm... a company called [Derek:] . [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] How's that spelt? [Wendy:] Erm... I've already contacted them. They've said I can record a s an upcoming seminar that's on Wednesday. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm but if it's during the day I'm not going to be able to get there. Unfortunately... nowhere in any of their literature does it actually say what time of day the seminar is. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm it's in Leeds erm and they know that I'm going but I may need to call them and say that I'm sending somebody else because I can't possibly go anywhere during the day on Wednesday. [Derek:] O [Wendy:] Cos I've let [LAUGHTER] myself in for a day of temping. [] [Derek:] I can go, no problem. [Wendy:] Right. Well I'll tomorrow morning phone them up find out exactly what time, and register you rather than me if it's... you know if I can't get to it. [Derek:] Okay. Erm... [Wendy:] And the call you P D Q. [Derek:] Okay, we need erm I need an address and... er it would be nice to know what the seminar's about. [Wendy:] It's about... [sigh] some kind of database structure thing. It's a selling... thing. Erm... it's actually being done by a company called er for or with and I gather they're trying to sell a database package. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm... The address and everything else... [sigh] they're supposed to be sending. I hope they do because otherwise no [LAUGHTER] none of us is going to be able to get there. Erm it's at some venue in Leeds. They're actually based in London. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm but I'm gonna talk to them tomorrow... and sort of finalize the arrangements for that. [Derek:] Mhm. [Wendy:] If it's in the evening I can go. If it's in the daytime I'm going to have to send you. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] Should be about three hours of recording to be got from them. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm which would be very nice indeed. Erm it's something we haven't got any kind of... you know we haven't got represented yet. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm... does anybody have on any of their various computers a large map of England? [David:] No. [Derek:] No but I've got an atlas. [Wendy:] Well I I want to have a big... picture of England on the wall on which I can start to tick off bits as we get them. [Clare:] Would a black and white photocopy of a map [Wendy:] I haven't the remotest idea cos I don't know how it would come out. I imagine it [Derek:] come out quite well. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Depends which map it is. [Wendy:] Oh my goodness. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] A man of many maps yeah. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] useful having them around. Unfortunately I usually use... road atlases for maps of Britain. Now that's a British map but it's in two bits. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Maps of France, the States. other places. [Wendy:] It's not really desperately important cos I can do it by using a list rather than a map but it's just somehow easier to refer to [Derek:] Britain. [Wendy:] A map on the wall. [Derek:] That's going to be too complicated to photocopy really. I just want erm you know an outline. Never mind, it's not a problem. [David:] There's an outline in the stuff they sent you. [Clare:] Yeah couldn't you blow that up. [Wendy:] Yes I probably could it's rather scratchy. [LAUGHTER] [David:] The S U has a [Derek:] That's our best other one. [David:] poster machine. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] If you actually want to use this. Er actually it's too mm. [Wendy:] It's it's too fiddly to, you know I'd be wanting to write on it so. [Derek:] Well [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] Okay er [Wendy:] bit too fiddly. [Derek:] I'll see if I've got a map around or can get a really cheap map and just put it up. [Wendy:] I'm probably best doing a blow up of the map they sent. [David:] Yes [Wendy:] Doesn't have major towns. [Derek:] That's it, I'll get a get a cheap tourist map of Britain, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] and get the S U poster machine. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] It's only, about a pound fifty isn't it. [Wendy:] It really wants to be one without the roads marked. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] This is the this thing [Derek:] Well. [Wendy:] I just want one with erm spot for towns. [Clare:] Areas [Wendy:] And s so I can draw on the areas [Derek:] We well we we can doc we can doctor the poster, I can get the poster in here, overlay those and and get the towns marked on that you want. [David:] Erm I have a map stencil [Wendy:] True. [David:] It's got the major cities on it. [Wendy:] How big's that. [David:] Well it's not very big but you could blow it up [Derek:] But it could be made into a poster. [Wendy:] True fact. [David:] Put whatever on it that you want. [Wendy:] Well it's not an immediate problem, it just occurred to it'd be nice to have you know I've I'm writing a list of the recordings as they come in and where they've come from. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] But it'd be nice to have some sort of pictorial representation of It'd just be easier to see which areas we've got to cover. Erm Okey-doke. How's your week gone, tell me all about it. [Derek:] were incompetent, erm the people who were supposed to bring up the recording thing at the station meeting didn't. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] And I only found this out when I went in and talked to the station manager, and he looked very confused. [Wendy:] Uh huh. [Derek:] Even more so than he had done the previous time, I said didn't you hear this about this at the station meeting and he said it hadn't been brought up. [Wendy:] Huh. [Derek:] So I explained to him and he was very nice, er but one of the things that they'd said that they would do, is get all the news broadcasters er to sign consent forms [Wendy:] Uh hm [Derek:] when they did their broadcasts. And they didn't. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] So I've got to chase all of them up and most of them are going to have gone home for Easter. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] However, er I can I have all their names, I know how to contact them. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] And I can get round to doing that this week, I started trying on Friday but most of them were of course hitting the road. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Erm so I'm making some progress there. Also he recommended somebody else's programs cos there's somebody who comes in and and does their their talking about political things [Wendy:] Uh huh. [Derek:] for a couple of hours each week. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Erm and another idea that I had, the conference office, there I was getting a little down about al all the students knock at the door, excuse me. [Clare:] Erm to continue with this train of thought. [Wendy:] Yes, the conference office. [Clare:] Erm we realized that with the students going for Easter there would be a lack of seminars [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] and general meetings and speeches on campus, but [LAUGHTER] remembered of course it's conference season. [] [Wendy:] Yes. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] So with it being conference time, we can get lots of companies who are turning up and giving conference presentations, lots of academic types. Er there will be educational and business seminars of various sorts going on. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] And I can approach the conference office to find out what's here, and I can then go after each of the different categories we're looking for, or each of the conferences. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Go after all the various speakers. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Because they are going to be from all over the country. [Wendy:] How many conferences are there generally? [Derek:] Er during Easter there are probably about five big ones on. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Th they aim at one big conference per week or slightly more. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] And [Wendy:] So just go for each one then, [Clare:] Yes. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] if there's you know the volume's that small. [Derek:] The other thing er is that all those conference's are going to be packed full of business men. [Wendy:] Yes that's true. From various parts of the country. [Derek:] Exactly. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] Er, and that was my brainwave of the week, basically. [Wendy:] Yes that's a very very good idea. [Derek:] So I'm I'm not only going to be asking the conference office about what's there, but I'm going to be going and asking individuals even if we can't record your keynote speech here, will you be able to record us interviews, will you be able to record us whatever else. [Wendy:] Yes. Yes that would be very good. Erm would it be an idea perhaps to put something up on notice boards that the conference people are going to see. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Mm Yes. [Wendy:] You know a sort of a er a fairly low content, high impact thing. You know one [Clare:] Just to put it in mind. [Wendy:] one side on the 's headed paper. Are there conference notice boards? [Derek:] There generally are [David:] Yes. [Derek:] yes. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] I have to track them down cos they put them in obscure places sometimes, but there are conference notice boards. [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] The one is in the corridor that goes from the porter's lodge to the stairs up to. [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Mhm. [Derek:] Yes I know that one. And there's the one is out just diagonally out from the porter's lodge. [speaker005:] Right. [Wendy:] Yes so I'll put together erm a erm something on notepaper, that we can put up on [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] the conference notice boards. [Derek:] If I can find whoever the senior organizer is for each conference, or whoever is doing the introductory talk, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] and nobble them at the start of the conference. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Then they can if they add a two minute spiel on the end of their introductory keynote thing, saying we have somebody here doing linguistics research, if any of your companies can help them. [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Then we'll be able to get people that way. [Wendy:] Yeah, save us an awful lot of letter writing. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Which would be excellent. Erm I went, I was telling David about this in the car, I went down to Nottingham to and recorded, I've got an hour of recording from erm an organisation meeting [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] in Nottingham. Erm at which meeting I also contacted or attacked four other people, one a solicitor, erm one running a sort of a a training centre, and two running businesses, one in sort of sales and marketing, and one in production. All of whom have taken away bumf and seem interested, and in about a week I'm going to follow it up by writing to them. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm. That I mean if they all came up trumps that's Nottinghamshire covered basically. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm which is excellent. Erm and at the very worst I've got you know an hour of recording from their meeting, and their going to let me record the next meeting they have as well. Er which'll have difference different er attendees. [David:] If we positive results from the conferences at Easter, erm during the summer there are a lot of conferences of various sizes, and a lot of professional conferences. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Mhm. [David:] Which opens up other areas cover. [Derek:] Oh the charity always have their conference in York. [David:] Er. [Derek:] The General Synod. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] The General Synod. [] [David:] I'm not I'm not certain that the charity are having one here this year. [Derek:] Really. [Wendy:] The Synod [David:] I heard [Derek:] The Synod has been here about three years running hasn't it. [Wendy:] Yeah, oh long before that. [David:] I heard mention that there isn't a charity conference this year. Er not that it won't be in York but that. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] I could get the conference timetable for which conferences are booked for the summer at the moment. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] It might not be complete but it'll certainly give us some of them. [Wendy:] It'll give us some clues. Because writing ahead to any pe any to the organisers would possibly be a useful thing to do, give them a lot of warning. [Derek:] Oh yeah. Right. That's something the [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] conference office about. [Wendy:] Yeah. Erm how have things been going with getting lectures? [Derek:] Er most of [Wendy:] Term's over. [Derek:] Yeah that's the thing. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Cos I I got the two science lectures and thought I'll try and get a couple of arts lectures, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] a couple of social science lectures. All the arts and social sciences people had stopped lecturing. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Oh no we don't do any lecturing week nine, or week eight. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] We only do one every week seven and one every week five you know. [Wendy:] That's right. [Derek:] So [Wendy:] So we've got about a five week break now, before we pick up again. [Derek:] I have have got Dave all sorted out. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] He I'm suppo he says to email him, contact him at the start of week zero, because he's goin he he's trying to remember of his own accord, but er ju this is just to give him a kick along in case he's forgotten [Wendy:] uh hm. [Derek:] or hasn't got it organised. He's going to record seminars that he is doing, and also seminars other people are doing in the department. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Erm and that's the stuff we'll be getting [Wendy:] Right. Good. [Derek:] We should be able to get er at least three hours seminars out of there. [Wendy:] That that's about the right amount. Oh [Derek:] We could we could get lots more [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] but I you said three hours or so. [Wendy:] We yeah we don't want to push any one area, er really too much. [Derek:] No. [Wendy:] I mean we can always go back to places like the linguistics department or or any department on on campus, We can always go back to and get more recordings later. Which is probably better than getting them all at the same time. [speaker005:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm. [Derek:] Remember each person in our catchment area should be on tape for one tenth of a second. [Wendy:] That's right. [LAUGHTER] Erm [] the law college have expressed an interest, and I'm temping for them this week so I'll chase them. [Clare:] Right. [Derek:] Can the law college also give you any useful contacts about solicitors. [Wendy:] I asked and they were non-committal, but erm I'll do some chasing. They're very very friendly and open people. Erm in fact incredibly so [LAUGHTER] erm [] Very nice place to work actually erm so I'll do a bit of friendly chasing. I'm that's why I can't go out during the day on Wednesday [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] cos I'm temping there. [Derek:] It just occurred to me that Tuesday would be another opportunity to talk to Julian, the guy who comes in and does the S U legal aid stuff. [Wendy:] Yes. Yes that would be a very. Erm what's the other thing, Yeah the place that I've just picked up erm a part time job, has said I can record as much as I want there. They often have people in doing talks, so later on this or early next month I'll be able to get a couple of hours talks. Erm shit that reminds me I've got to write a letter. To somebody at the Company who's coming to do a talk there. [Clare:] Ooh. [Wendy:] Erm so that's not immediately but, in the first two or three weeks of next month going to turn into several hours of recording. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm and my mother's going to record her theory lessons. In Nottingham. [Derek:] Err I think by the way I've pretty much got all the the areas wrapped up in Scotland if we can just get going and we can get [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] There may be problems on amount of material from certain things. But I I've got contacts which can get us academic recordings, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] I've contacts who can do business stuff, consultations, after dinner speeches if we're lucky, [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] club meetings no problem, lots of things. [Wendy:] Great. I've written to Sue's school, Sue's erm Sue 's school where she's currently doing her teacher training, [Derek:] Yes er [Wendy:] Erm and she's going to mention it to her headmaster as well. Hopefully they'll let us record lessons. [Derek:] It occurred [Wendy:] Annual staff meetings there, and Scarborough college I've written to and they they're sounding positive. Erm I've got a friend doing teacher training there. be good. [Clare:] I approached company and erm am waiting to hear their reply. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Erm which I will chase up tomorrow morning [Wendy:] Uh hm. [Clare:] and see if can get hold of a meeting there. I'm fairly positive about it, but. [Wendy:] good. I gather you're self-employed or going to become so. [Clare:] No. [Wendy:] No that's not happening. [Clare:] going to work. [Wendy:] Oh God, that's a pain. [Clare:] It is, it's a bit of a pain. [Wendy:] Derek was all sort of ah about it. [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] It would be lovely if it would happen, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] but the time scale's the problem. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Because they say it it would be about two months. So I I'm not holding out a lot of hope for it. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] at the moment. [Wendy:] Mind you I mean even four months, cos you'd be getting more money. [Clare:] That's right [Wendy:] That's worth doing. [Clare:] Yes yeah. I I would do it if I'm offered the opportunity. [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] It's whether the opportunity arises. [] [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] The other thing I have done is setting down there is various amounts of stuff to go off to my father [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] To have sales demonstrations, presentations [Wendy:] uh huh. [Clare:] recorded in Glasgow. And erm I'm waiting to contact a friend of mine who works in the library in Manchester. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] He'll have library and library meetings [Wendy:] Yes very good. [Clare:] recorded in Manchester. And I have also remembered that I know a deputy headmaster in a school in Wales. [Wendy:] Excellent. [Clare:] Who I can hopefully [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] get recordings of Welsh school meetings and classroom interaction [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] from. [Wendy:] That will be very good. [David:] I've just remembered,somethi something's just clicked in my mind, I rang my mother today and she was busy cos she was taking a confirmation class. She's a catechist at church. [Wendy:] Oh yes. [David:] The catholic church, it just never occurred to me before. [Wendy:] Religious meetings. [David:] Every Sunday, every Sunday until Easter. [Wendy:] Super. Erm get on the phone. Dude. [Derek:] I'm about to get on the phone as well [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] to see if Whit's doing one of his tours of the place tomorrow and what time. [Wendy:] Right [Derek:] Because if he is that we can get that as an educational presentation. [Wendy:] Yes er yeah or a or a dis or whatever. We a we already asked him about that actually. [David:] We we've already asked him he said yes. [Wendy:] He said yes he's do it but when. [Derek:] Yeah. [Clare:] He said he he'd do it. [Derek:] That's what I he did agree to it when I I mentioned it to him but I just ha I want to check if he's doing one tomorrow, cos if he's doing one tomorrow it might be tomorrow morning so I'll have to [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] catch him at the right time. [Wendy:] Okay. [Derek:] I'll phone him now. [Wendy:] Okey-doke. [speaker005:] Okay. [Clare:] Erm. I've still drawn a blank as far as recording is concerned but I will be to my father. I've asked for about three hours my contact in Liverpool. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] And mostly [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] And erm numerous [LAUGHTER]. Erm I'm still suffering a little at the moment from a shortage of tape recorders, so if any more are available [Wendy:] Right I have [Clare:] I can put them to use. [Wendy:] One more now, as long as they do go out because erm Oh I've got one that will be coming back from the careers service soon, erm he's supposed to be ringing tomorrow morning. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm he's had it for about a week and a half now. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] And he should have gotten three or four hours of interviews and meeting. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] I'm aiming towards sending off a return on Monday week. With as much transcribed volume in it as possible. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] I don't want to send any this is sort of from erm almost from my ego talking now, I don't want to send anything until I've had back from company Group their comments on my [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] initial transcriptions. Cos I just don't want to send stuff back, knowing that there are things wrong [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] with the way I view the transcription system at the moment. But if we haven't heard anything back by Monday week I'm going to send whatever we've got. [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm which won't be a vast amount, you know, I was expecting a slow start and we've had a fairly slow start, but you know I'm not worried by that at all. Erm but yeah Monday week is sort of the deadline for getting returned. [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] And I should have I hope three or four, maybe five tapes to send off then, which would be very very indeed. Erm [Derek:] Whit's out, he's phoning me when he gets back. [Wendy:] Right okay. [Clare:] If company come through, this week then it could be considerably more, cos I can get interviews, sales demonstrations and. [Wendy:] Great. Yeah. I think we I'm assuming that as long as we don't get more than say three hours of one type of recording from each place, we can get as much, apart from that constraint [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] can get as much as we like from each place. [Derek:] That [Wendy:] So three hours or so of lecture, three hours or so of seminar and. [Derek:] Well that means each company we can take for twelve hours because there are basically four business related classes. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Er assuming we don't [Wendy:] Most companies don't have all of them. Erm [Derek:] Company talks, business meetings, [Wendy:] Very [Derek:] Sales demonstrations and interviews. [Wendy:] Yeah. Very few companies have talks to the company. Er or done by the company, erm sales demos again we're limited. Meetings, all companies have them in some way one human being companies. Erm what was the other one? [Derek:] Interviews. [Wendy:] Interviews. Most companies erm. [David:] Although not necessarily in the current economic climate. [Wendy:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Although the news on that looks like it could be improving too. [speaker005:] Yes. [Wendy:] Oh I'll believe that when I see it. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] The the other advantages I can think of at the moment for erm getting company to say yes it the obvious connections to company. [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] And the fact that the person whom I appro I have approached about the project is erm does travel have meetings so which we can record. [Wendy:] Yeah. Right. Anything else? Any other sort of reporty type things? or plan type things? [Derek:] No I think I was restricted to the one brainwave this week. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] That's okay one a week is fine. Erm I wanted to ask erm I ga I assume that everyone has read through the bumf that I've been merrily distributing. [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm how d how do you think that bumf comes across. Erm I've had one comment from the people in Nottingham, that er we need to have a clearer idea of exactly what we want from people, and then let them go away and and read more detailed bumf in more detail. I thought I had that in my introductory letter, the one that says we're a small company making recordings, we're currently collecting recordings of erm sort of English as used in everyday situations and we would like to record on your premises if we may. I thought that covered it but, it may not do. [David:] A lot of people I've spoken to have said well what sort of things do you want? [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] It it's all [David:] What do you mean, the English language? [Wendy:] Hm. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Oh dear [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Yes the first questions er. [Derek:] something in German [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] It is a fairly academic phrase really. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Well how about we prepare something, the sort of thing that I can photocopy ad nauseam and give round er conference guests who turn up, for example, which says you know something like, please help, we are doing linguistic research, we want to make recordings, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] if you are involved in any of the following, list all your situations, [speaker005:] Mm. [Derek:] er and would be willing to have those recorded for research purposes, erm [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] please [Wendy:] The trouble with a list is that it it erm limits people. People assume that if if something's not on the list then it's not important or not necessary. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm I'd prefer to give a definition, rather than a list, so something like any situation where you find yourself talking to people. You know I mean that's basically what we want it's any situation where people talk to each other, with some kind of agenda in mind. [Derek:] Yeah, yeah. [Clare:] Yes. [Derek:] Erm okay, [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] but if you can think of some way to say that and put it down so that we put down something like four sentences on paper and a few examples. [Wendy:] What does the erm where's it gone, the er doohickey, erm help! [Derek:] The consent form? [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Yes. I've got it here haven't I. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] There we go what does this actually say? Erm [reading] We're asking a large cross section of people and organisations around the country to help by allowing us to record their conversations, meetings broadcasts and so on, both in private homes and on company premises. [] Erm [Derek:] Okay in that case what [Wendy:] I mean that's poss that's already too detailed [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] really isn't it. [Derek:] Well first of all w we've got t if you take out er a large cross section, if you just say, we're asking people and organisations around the country to help us by allowing us to record meetings, broadcasts, er [Clare:] Allowing us to record any situation [Derek:] interviews and so on, and then bracket you know any situation where people meet er and [Wendy:] Other way round, any situation where people talk to each other, for instance [Derek:] Er [Wendy:] I think. I'd I'd rather put the definition first, and have it develop [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] Okay. [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] and then bracket a list. [Clare:] If anyone comes up with extra ideas, that we or haven't covered, [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] then they won't feel [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] And er if you are interested in helping us, please er contact this [Wendy:] Please! [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] please contact us at this number, this address, erm or attract the attention of the person who has just given you this flyer. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] I think a very erm and sort of thought provoking, eye-catching statement would be very useful [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Because even if you you have sat down and spoken to somebody about the project for five minutes, and given them all the other information, [Wendy:] Mhm. [Clare:] If they've got that piece of paper on top of, they remember what it was all about. [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] And I think. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Yeah. Okay. [Derek:] couple of sentences is, help we w we want help recording these things, can you help us? [Wendy:] Right okay well I'll I'll put something together. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm yeah. [Derek:] Cos if I've got that to throw around conference guests I think I'll get a massive uptake. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] If it's [Wendy:] I'll I'll try and rewrite my erm this is something that is not a problem, every time I write a letter it or write my introductory letter it comes out different, so I'll try and simplify my introductory letter as well, I think we'll get a bigger uptake, [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] If people are more aware right from the outset of what we actually want from them. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm I don't I don't think that the the er four thing bumf thing that includes that long list really need to be altered any more. [Clare:] No. [Derek:] That seems fine. [Wendy:] I mean that's available for people who want more detail about what's going on. [Clare:] Mm. But I I I think you should say a clear and simple statement of what our what we need for the company or person approached is [Wendy:] Yes. Yes. Okay right. That is a thing to do and I will do it. Damn it. [David:] I think you ought to put the er the word tape into your [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Ah. Sound recordings, audio. Yeah. [David:] Cos all we want is the words. [Wendy:] I thought I used the word audio somewhere actually. er [Derek:] It would still be more obvious [Wendy:] Not on this. Yeah okay then. [Derek:] Erm. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Can you make the [Clare:] Anonymity would be very very difficult if it's if it was a video recording. [Wendy:] It would really wouldn't it. [Derek:] They presumab they presumably think we're very high tech and we can do this [Wendy:] Oh the sort of thing where you where the faces all have wibbly bits on them. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Can you make the very brief leaflet, the one we've just talked about, [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] a couple of sentences, something which will fit on a piece of paper that size, because if you can, we can have that on one bit, and the well to one side or the other we can have the information that we want, and we can photo then photocopy those two things, next to each other [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] and double it up on A four. So we can get we can get something with project so that there's a name people will [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] er and [speaker005:] A statement of what we want. [Derek:] And then the thing in small print so we we because if we do it on the company 's headed notepaper, all we'll manage ah per photocopy is one sheet. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] And your print, I I assume your printer doesn't do huge print does it? [Wendy:] It does actually. [Derek:] It does. th [Wendy:] Yeah fairly big print. [Derek:] Okay because [Wendy:] Or I can I mean I intend to laser print [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] things at Spike's work next time I can get out there. [Derek:] You see if we photo-reduce this, all those addresses just get lost. [Wendy:] Yeah. One thing one thing we could do is erm reduce or not not photo-reduce but just cut out the middle of a sheet of the headed notepaper, then you get two two ha er two A five things but that way round. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Rather than that way round. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Er so so [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] landscape rather than portrait. [Derek:] So so long as we get something. [Wendy:] But I'd I'd rather use the headed notepaper, than that. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] We'll get better copies off the headed paper, than off the shiny. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] And [Derek:] Anything which says project on it. [Clare:] Shiny. [Wendy:] But yeah [Derek:] Er. [Wendy:] But I'd like it to have the company address so that people can follow u can follow up our references without us having to give them the address. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Without them having to ask us for the address. [Derek:] Mm that's reasonable okay. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm yeah i l I like people to be able to independently check up on us, because that gives us so much more validity. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Yeah. Er if but if you want to do something like that, to organise something, because if it goes on A five [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] and that means that I can photocopy them for half the price. [Wendy:] Yeah. Of course. [Derek:] And if I'm going to be leafleting thousands of people in conferences, or at least hundreds, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] going to make a difference. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] A any photocopying that needs to be done in great bulk, erm get quotes, and let the company pay for it rather than you paying for it and then pay you back, because I might be able to for instance get an account thingy somewhere [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] and get a further discount. [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm I mean as it is I I can get photocopying for four P a sheet getting fifty at a time, and that give I get a receipt for that which is better than three P a sheet without a receipt. [Derek:] Yes. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] In terms of tax back. [Derek:] Agreed. [Wendy:] Erm actually it's about the same, but it looks better in my accounts. [Derek:] In that case it's probably best if you handle the photocopying as well because I can't [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] get anything better than five pence with receipt. [Wendy:] Yes okay. Erm yeah. Is conference season already under way then? [Derek:] Conference season will begin on Monday. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] There may be a s there may have been some guests turn up [Wendy:] Monday tomorrow or Monday week? [Clare:] Monday tomorrow. [Derek:] Yes Mo Monday tomorrow but that won't that'll be one conference and I I'll be able to well maybe two conferences by the end of the week. But I'll find out from the conference office who's around [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] At the very least I can find the keynote speaker at each one and chase him. [Wendy:] Okay. okay. Erm yeah. Yeah I mean just getting the keynote speech from each one would be nice wouldn't it. [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] Erm yeah, that's good. Okay, any other business. [speaker005:] 7 [Clare:] How about a statement of what we intend to do this week, [Wendy:] Right okay. [Clare:] So that you know what we're off to do. [Wendy:] Yeah. Erm well the things I have to do are basically all the things listed on here still. Ha ha. Erm that I went through at the beginning you know which is basically write to lots of people [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] phone some other people. Erm. [Clare:] How quickly will you be able to prepare the erm bumf for the conferences? [Wendy:] Midweek. [Clare:] And something to go along with our information people we speak to. [Wendy:] By midweek er. Erm yeah, tomorrow's basically horrendously busy and I'm temping the next two days, but I'm free in the evenings. [Derek:] Mhm. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Unless this company seminar is in fact on Wednesday evening in which case I'm also busy this Wednesday evening. [Derek:] Let me know about that whenever you can. [Wendy:] Yeah. I'd actually prefer to send you to that than go to it myself, because I think that would be a better use of time. [Derek:] Yeah, that seems reasonable. [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] But I'll I'll have to find out from them, it may be that they don't want me to send anybody else to it because I made the initial contact with them. Erm. [Derek:] Erm okay. [Wendy:] But I will you know [Derek:] So I've got to contact conference office, continue chasing up these people about various student things, that we have we now tapes of we just have to get the consent forms for. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Er and look into local M P's and their speaking agendas, council elections round York and see if any of the student events this summer have speakers. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] I'm doing company, and I'm contacting Julian on Tuesday. And I'm sending all this lot off that didn't get sent off, and contacting I'm being contacted about the place. [Wendy:] Yeah okay. Erm [Clare:] I will chase company this week, and see what can be done about er sending that package off to my father recordings will come out of that. [Wendy:] Mhm. [Clare:] And I will be contacted by Clive [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] So side B [Derek:] more information about. [Wendy:] . Yeah. [Derek:] And I will start looking at organising some recordings in Wales, because I I know that's one area where I can get some stuff done. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Business, erm church meetings, religious meetings and schools. So I will get on to that. [Wendy:] Right.... Okay. Erm you're going to talk to your mum. [David:] I'll talk to my mum. [Wendy:] Yeah. good.... And you're going to... [LAUGHTER] Are you going to try and check about... er whether you are [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] going to be able to? [Derek:] Well I intend to do. [Wendy:] . [Derek:] Where are you going to be doing that? I'll have to ask. [David:] ... [Derek:] I don't know I've never needed [Wendy:] Never tried. [Derek:] to get one yes. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Erm... how about Well erm the council offices are on... the the little square at the bottom of Stonegate. Stonegate Coneygate [speaker005:] Yeah. [Derek:] Coney Street. You know... in there. [speaker005:] Yeah. [Derek:] Er... when do you want to go? Because if I'm going to check out the council elections and things we may as well go together and do our business there and... annoy all the people at the council all at once.... [David:] Aha.... Er you're going to be busy tomorrow because it's the first day of the conference isn't it. [Derek:] Yes. I'm going to be busy tomorrow. Erm how about I [Clare:] And Thursday probably. [Derek:] How about I contact you tomorrow evening? [David:] Okay..... [Derek:] After you get back from work. You get back from work about... tenish?... [David:] [sigh] [Derek:] Ish? [David:] [whispering] half past ten. [] [Derek:] Okay I'll contact.... [Wendy:] Right. I will attempt to use that there tape, ta-da, erm to... note the minutes... and get those back out.... Erm... I'll attempt to do that tonight but I don't hold out much hope so don't hold your breath.... Erm... other than that I'm going to write to. [Clare:] And do the other things that you. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Among the four thousand other things that I [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] also said I was going to do. Erm all this and have a life as well. Excellent. [Clare:] Is there any of the above that you would like to allocate to... me for example? I'm willing to take on more. If there's anything you.... [Wendy:] ... Erm I'll have to think about [LAUGHTER] it actually. [] [Clare:] Yeah. Okay. [Wendy:] Erm most of the writing letters and things are follow-ups so I need to do those myself cos I did the originals. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm... Erm erm.... We're just going to write to local councils arbitrarily and and see what comes up. need to do that now. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] And I will contact [Wendy:] Any tapes that anybody can get to me this week would be... very very good because... I was saying er a few minutes ago erm... I'm intending to send whatever we've got done tomorrow week. [Derek:] I will get something at one of the conferences. I don't know how much but I'll get something. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] And I will er plead for high a fast turnaround time from the Scottish stuff. [Wendy:] Mhm. Right.... That would be very good. Erm... Mm. Mhm. [Derek:] Feel free to take any of the....... [Wendy:] That's right your tape machine came out of one of those boxes. [Clare:] That's right. [Derek:] This... is the one that's going up to Scotland. [Clare:] That one'll be going to [Derek:] That's... the one that's going down south. [Clare:] .... [Derek:] Have one of those and have one of those. [David:] Great. [Derek:] And... [Clare:] The box may be under the table. [Derek:] Oh. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] the headphones... togeth Or have you got the headphones already? [Derek:] You've got everything to do You've got the headphones haven't you. [David:] I've got got the machine. [Wendy:] You've got the machine just got the packaging. [Derek:] Aha! [David:] It's just that I'm going to send Erm right. I'm going to send one to erm.... [Wendy:] Yes. Erm... do you want any of the massively helpful packaging that came that all these came in? The the the polystyrene doohickeys? [Derek:] Actually it might be an idea. [Clare:] Do they have small boxes as well? They they came in? [Wendy:] They came in massive great big humongous boxes packed with polystyrene actually. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm... [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Well they I think they came by Red Star. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Ah. [Wendy:] Erm or they came by something where somebody turned up in a little van that wasn't a Post Office van and I had to sign. [Clare:] Right. Can I I if I can get any tapes to you this week I shall. [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] Erm... I think mine may be a week delayed. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Erm I would imagine. [Wendy:] Mhm. [David:] . [Clare:] Transcription machines. You were checking about that last time we met. [Wendy:] Yes. Erm... the cheapest I can get them is about two hundred pounds, the fastest I can get them is forty-eight-hour delivery. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm... if I want them quicker than that they cost more. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Why? Who knows. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] [sigh] [Wendy:] ... that's two hundred pounds... not including the stupid little setdphones you get with them because they're crap. 3u [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] . Erm... I have two sets of headphones that can be used with Two spare sets of headphones that can be [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] used with transcription machines. Decent ones that are comfortable to wear. [Clare:] Rather than the ones that try and pull your ears [Wendy:] Erm [Clare:] off your head. [Wendy:] Yeah. I do have a transcription machine for minicassettes. If anybody can record onto minicassette please do. I have some minicassettes. [Clare:] Ooh that that reminds me. I asked my father about his answerphone. There's no way of removing the erm tape. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] So. [Wendy:] . But it's generally the kind where you can record notes onto them. [Clare:] Yeah.. [Wendy:] Erm where you can get the tape out. [Derek:] Yeah. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm I've got a well Mike has it but erm... a... transcription machine that takes minicassettes and also has a recording thing with it that makes... absolutely excellent recordings. Really totally awesome ones. Erm... it can hear from the other side of the of Mike's living room it can hear the person on the other end of a telephone connection... which is is is is [David:] [whistling] [Wendy:] quite impressive actually. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm... so that's available as another recording machine and there's a small supply of minicassettes to go with it. [Clare:] I can get more because my father does have a minicassette recorder and a stock of tapes. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Erm if if they are useful I will ask him to box them up and send them.... The transcription that you're going to do, erm... mm how how? [Wendy:] David has done some transcription this week, erm and I've done a bit,... erm and that's basically, well we've got one side of, you've got one side of... those lectures to do erm and I've got some of the recording that I made on... Thursday to do and that and that. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm so [David:] also. [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] I know I know [Wendy:] Want to have a look back at them. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Have a look back at. [David:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm... [Clare:] So so you'll take care of the transcription. [Wendy:] For the moment yes. Erm... [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] I mean as soon as we've got enough tapes in that we can't between us transcribe them in a week I buy another record er another transcription machine [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] ... erm [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] . But I [LAUGHTER] want to avoid [] if possible... erm... teaching sort of the old version of the system of conventions. [Clare:] Yes. Yes I understand yeah. [Wendy:] If if at all possible. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm... but this is the only area where where have ever been slow in [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] ... getting that to me. [Clare:] But [Wendy:] Er for no apparent reason. Yeah. [Clare:] . [Wendy:] I mean that's one reason why I'm setting Monday Monday week as the date... final date for making the first return. I think I could probably send a return on Tuesday... erm but I'd rather wait because if I can send stuff properly done rather than you know done to the latest or or the the pre-latest system then... I will. [Clare:] It makes more sense. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Erm if you could contact me erm... as soon as possible regarding the cost of either servicing or replacing [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] my keyboard I would like to get my system up and running erm [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] because I've got for it. [Wendy:] What's wrong with your keyboard? [Clare:] Erm it's tired basically. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Erm... keys on it stick. It's fully functional but [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] if there's some way of. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Seriously, W D Forty. [Wendy:] Erm yeah actually pull pull all the keys off and and... [David:] Works. [Wendy:] and get in there with a [David:] . [Wendy:] stiff paintbrush. [Clare:] Right. [David:] Erm it works on... [Clare:] Okay. [David:] electrical. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] If you could get me a quote I shall see what D I Y I can do and then find out how much it's [LAUGHTER] going to cost me to buy a new [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] one because I've buggered the last one up. [] [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] I'll do that tomorrow as well. [Clare:] One thing I must ask you about just while I'm thinking about it. [David:] . [Clare:] Erm... I have LocoScript for [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] ... my Amstrad at present. Will you be able to provide me with a... erm WordPerfect... package? [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Not on the Amstrad. [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] I I'm using LocoScript on the Amstrad and it's adequate and I can then just port ASCII text files across into WordPerfect. [Clare:] Right, fine. Erm I don't use the same disks as you. I actually use the Amstrad disks. [Wendy:] That's okay, I've got both drives. [Clare:] . [Wendy:] I can convert. [Clare:] So it's perfectly fine for me to transcribe on [Wendy:] Oh yeah. [Clare:] this Amstrad [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] in LocoScript and you can.... [Wendy:] You can use erm... er cut and paste, you know blocks and [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] erm phrases for... in fact quite adequately to speed up the transcription. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] it's not as nice as the macros on WordPerfect but it's... adequate. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm.... [David:] Erm.... Erm... I had a problem with the Amstrad keyboard. [Wendy:] It's so tight. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] this big. It's so dinky. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] It's got as many keys on it as an I B M erm... [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] erm you know enhanced keyboard and it's this big. [LAUGHTER]... [David:] Perhaps because I don't touch-type I did have a problem. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] It's relatively simple. You just count five buttons to the left... after the nine. [Wendy:] . Yeah..... [Derek:] That would be the four.... Five buttons to the left. [Wendy:] I knew what she meant. [Clare:] The other left. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] This left. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] I mean she di did did demonstrate which left she meant. [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Yes. Five [Derek:] Yeah. [Clare:] buttons to the left. [Wendy:] Yeah. It makes perfect sense. [Clare:] Using my right hand. [LAUGHTER] I mean [] [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] what do you expect? Okay. [Wendy:] I mean that's my left. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Over there.... Mm.... Anyway. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Yeah. Okay. Right, fine. . [Clare:] That that's the er. [Wendy:] It's an Eight Two Five Six? [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Yeah.... No problem. Erm... right, well I think that's about it. Erm.... [Clare:] No, that's that's all the business I had. [Wendy:] Right. I I want to push off erm because I've got [LAUGHTER] a lot of work to do tonight. [] So I'll. [Clare:] On a on a serious note, if there is anything you want to delegate, you know where to find me, shout. [Wendy:] Yeah.... I will.... Yes I certainly will. Erm... that's it. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Hit it.

[speaker001:] Suddenly everyone seems to be talking about the menopause so we thought that you'd better hear what women really think. [introduction music] [speaker002:] There's still a lot of mystery, worse, misinformation surrounding this milestone in a woman's life. So tonight the wraps are off and I think you'll agreeably surprised by what you hear! I'd like to start with a vote. Do you want more information about the menopause? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred... goodness! Ninety one people say yes, only nine say no! Now, why did you, why did you say yes? Is it because yo, you you haven't got the information? You don't have enough? it's not available to you? Yes? [speaker003:] I feel that there is an awful lot of... gossip and scare tactics about it and I'd like to, to have a real expert information on it. [speaker002:] Have you tried to information before? [speaker003:] Not ver, not very much. Mainly [speaker002:] I [speaker003:] mainly through, mainly through gossip! [speaker002:] Gossip? [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] And what does the gossip say? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Every, for everything er... from it's all in your mind to it's dreadful! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Right, front line. [speaker004:] Yes. I think actually I would like to get some, some more information and men should get some more information because they are the ones who are... dismissing and er... not sort of going along with it. [speaker002:] Mm. Well out there, they're they're watching so... who else said yes? [speaker005:] I'd feel the local doctors, your local G P's are needing to be brought more into... to line with it. I've personally had problems with one doctor... cos he was out of date, he wasn't... you know, wasn't aware of some of the treatments... and I had to actually enlighten him to some of the... the treatments that was available for people! [speaker002:] Really? [speaker005:] Aha. Yes. [speaker002:] Ho and how did you know he was out of date? [speaker005:] Because ee er, some of the subjects I brought to him but he didn't know nothing about them! He had to... you know, he'd, he'd to leave it and consult with colleagues or whatever. So I feel that [speaker002:] And where were you [speaker005:] you know, that G P's that's been practising for a long number of years... you know er, elderly G P's are probably not as up-to-date on these kind of things as they should be. [speaker002:] Aha. This one. [speaker006:] I had a few problems when I was about thirty... and my doctor told me it was just my age and the menopause! From thirty! And I started it about fifteen years later! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now when do yo, when your doctor said that when you were thirty di did you believe him or her? [speaker006:] It was a him. [speaker002:] A him. [speaker006:] A doctor younger than myself, and I didn't believe him! And, I just tu but... there was nothing else I could do! I couldn't... argue with him... I just had to go and say oh well it's just my age and get on with it! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] I'd like to know more about it because having gone through it without any eventuality I'd quite like to know what I missed! If anything! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] And if, in fact, this H R T I'm really missing something, you see, that's what I'd like to know. [speaker008:] I don't think that... er, I think that unfortunately some of the older doctors definitely were misinformed and weren't educated and I think nowadays that the doctors are becoming very much more educated and perhaps the ones who have the bad time are the fortunate ones in so far as they're getting the hormone replacement therapy if they're lucky and they have sympathetic general practitioner. And the ones who haven't had the bad time might well be suffering because they're not being allowed the benefits of hormone replacement therapy. [speaker002:] Now you're a G P? [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker002:] And so obviously you're very well clued up. Th does that mean the older people here have had a raw deal? I mean,th those people who've gone through the menopause wo would any of you like to say anything about experience? Yes? [speaker009:] Er, well [speaker010:] Er... [speaker002:] No, yes yes! Nelly? [speaker009:] Na er... well of course I'm seve seventy nine but I can still remember most of it... and I did have a very bad time! Moods, bad moods and... going to... I gave my husband a terrible time! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] I really did! But he was very understanding and, the doctor just seemed to think that that was a natural course I had to go through! But er, it lasted, I was... forty seven and it didn't finish till I was about sixty! But people complain sometimes about the flushes, but I was glad when I had a flush because I felt better after having flushes! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] I think we've got to look at the other side of the [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] as well that I personally a agree with the lady over there as I'm now, with all the talk of hormo, hormone replacement wonder what it was? How much better life would have been if I'd known about that... or used it? [speaker010:] I'm from the group, the change you change [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] and er... when I was going through the change and I'm post menopause... er... and having terrible feelings, I'd nowhere to go! I went round all the hospitals in Edinburgh and Leith... all the doctors surgeries and there was nowhere and I ended up at the... the women's unit in Edinburgh... City Chambers... and I got help from the women's unit... and er... from there... we started a pressure group to get more literature to people, you know to get them into doctor's surgeries so as they would know what to do, what to expect. [speaker002:] Helen? [speaker001:] In... we've had a menopause clinic in Glasgow for the last twenty four years... erm, it's run by a male doctor erm... but we have been treating patients for that length time. We're extremely interested in the women... we try to treat them as individuals... we cope with a lot of problems... and... I think if we look as women as individuals, each individual woman has a different problem. We all basically have flushes, sweats, depression and various other problems, but basically the ladies who present with flushes and sweats are the ladies who in fact get help... for ladies who don't present with flushes and sweats finish up as osteoporotic... and they're the ones we are very concerned about! We don't see them until they're too late and they're having fractures of the spine and shrinking... two percent of bone less in a year! [speaker002:] Are you suggesting that every woman going through the menopause should get some kind of clinical help? [speaker001:] It should be offered to her [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] if she wants it. I'm not telling every woman to take me H R T, I'm suggesting that it's... preventative medicine. We don't stop diabetics having insulin. If the ovaries are removed, ovaries stop working... there is treatment there to prevent us having disease, why shouldn't we take it and why shouldn't we have a better life? [speaker002:] Linda? I'm, er, the director of the National Osteoporosis Society and we started five years ago and... as Helen said just now, we are in the business of informing women, not saying all women should be going on hormone replacement therapy! Some women certainly will sail through menopause with never a hot flush and no problems at all, sadly that's no indication that they're not going to have problems from their bones later on. Now i, let's let's do a bit of definition of terms here, osteoporosis is what It's bones that are too porous literally, so that they break very easily Aha. and that accounts for the hip fractures and the... the er... spines collapsing in Mhm. older women, losing height... a lot of pain from these fractures and it's bones that are too porous so they're not holding you up sufficiently as you get older. And how can that be alleviated? By hormone replacement therapy, that's the main way of of helping. You can do things for yourself in the way of diet, exercise, good lifestyle, not smoking and so on... but, a lot of women will need hormone replacement therapy just to replace the hormones that dear old mother nature stop supplying to us at the menopause. Hundred years ago we didn't live this long! Now that we do live much longer with better health care generally, what we want is for women to be able to live that last third of their lives in health... and being able to enjoy themselves and contribute to the community, not feeling that they're crippled by pain. Now, am I right in saying that there has been... some controversy in the past about hormone replace, let's call it H R T, it's shorter, that er... that not everyone's convinced it's it's it's a good idea, that there are maybe some negative side effects. I mean,wha what is the latest information on on H R T? [speaker008:] You were right in saying that there was very bad press given to hormone replacement therapy in in the early days when they used very high doses of of er un er, of normal oestrogens and this caused an increase in the amount of end of uterus, uterine cancer... and this I think has generally er mo mo mo... ruined the course for for the older doctors because they still think that it's associated with an increase in cancer and they haven't got up to date to realise that the more modern preparations are not causing this and that's where I think th the problems li lie. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker003:] We are in the course of giving H R T. The ladies are monitored very carefully and scanned and sometimes they pick up cancer in another part of the body which [speaker008:] Mhm. [speaker003:] is a bonus and a benefit to the sufferer and that is er... an extra thing with H R T. [speaker002:] Here. [speaker004:] I'd like to say that I'm actually on hormone replacement therapy and I'm not being [LAUGHTER] monitored []. I've been on it for over three years and I'm quite concerned about some of the things I've heard tonight and I'm going to make an appointment [speaker003:] Well that's all the things that concerns us. [speaker004:] and see my doctor about it straight away! [speaker002:] It's not only woman who need to be better informed it's the doctors as well! [speaker001:] Here here! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] I would like to ask, if one of these medical ladies could tell us? How, how, what percentage of these signs of the menopause are inherited tendencies? [speaker002:] Who would like to... who'd like to answer that one? Yes? [speaker006:] I will. I I there is no evidence that it's an inherited or venereal problem... and this is the, you know you... we have... there has been lots of sort of studies done to see which woman might be more at risk and which women, you know, might have symptoms and th, the fact is that the reason why you, why the menopause occurs is because the ovaries stop functioning, they stop... producing oestrogen... and every woman's ovaries does this and they do it... you know, at all varying ages... the average age is fifty. But the most interesting thing about it is that i... the actual level oestrogen bears no relationship to your symptoms as er... Sheila has said, you can have... two women... with the sa exactly the same level of oestrogen and one woman is having awful problems and the other woman is, as we have heard, having no problems at all! [speaker007:] A year I had all the symptoms... and I went and got a book and read about it and tried to find out as much possible about it and the book scared me silly because it told me all these things that could happen [speaker006:] Oh yes! [speaker007:] and... I was upset so I went to my doctor who's a lady doctor and she's young, she explained things to me and she put me on H R T and it changed my life completely! It... th, I was depressed, I had swe sweats, night sweats and my husband was... all, he couldn't sleep at night and it changed it completely! And, the worse thing for me was I lost my self confidence, I had no confidence whatsoever.,. in all areas, work-wise [speaker006:] Mm. [speaker007:] at home with my family, whenever I went on the H R T everything changed! I felt better, I looked better, I di I didn't feel, my skin was better, my hair come back, it was just marvellous for me! Absolutely marvellous! H R T [speaker008:] Well women don't want to [speaker002:] Le let Louise say! [speaker009:] May I just say, I thi, I think it's important to point out that H R T isn't a miracle cure! And although it will grea, greatly help some women, unfortunately some women are unable to tolerate it, the side effects it gi, it gives them are worse than the actually symptoms they're having in the first place. It means having periods back again which after, and now, er several years break and erm, many women find unacceptable. [speaker001:] We all have to have that. [speaker002:] You don't have that? [speaker001:] We do have, we ha, we have tablets for that. [speaker002:] Yes? Over here! [speaker010:] I must admit, after I'd finished with the menopause I felt absolutely great! I wasn't on H R T, I had a very easy transition from having periods to stopping having periods. Er, I did go on H R T because of the osteoporosis risk, but I was unlucky I was one of the... I think twelve percent who had developed breast trouble and had to come off it. I think that er... it is probably a very useful thing if you can tolerate it. But I must admit, having a lifetime of painful periods and not having [LAUGHTER] any more painful periods [] was absolute bliss! And that's one of the drawbacks of H R T, it all came [LAUGHTER] back again []! [speaker002:] Down here. Yeah? [speaker001:] I was just going to mention the fact that if you have had breast cancer you cannot go on H R T cos it was a hormone that caused it in the first place! [speaker002:] Is that right. [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker001:] I think, one fact that probably, I'm sure yo, many of us know here... is that the actual number of women on the H R T is really very small in this country! It's probably less, about, between five and ten percent! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] So... I mean th... the instance of breast cancer is rising... the instance of breast cancer, the number of cases of breast is rising, it rises with age. Currently,th nu, H R T in this country will not be influencing the risks of breast cancer. On the other hand, and it is extremely complex... and it indeed, it probably erm... amounts to the fact that each wom woman has to consider how she feels herself [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] about whether she would wish to run the risks of A, B, and C. And the other condition we haven't mentioned is... er th th th the risks of coronary artery disease and strokes which actually do, are the main cause of death o, in Scottish women! And... it's it's almost like saying that the, if you take H R T er, this is in our sort of survey... that you will in fact erm, reduce the instance of heart disease... but ma, might you, in in fact, increase the risks of breast cancer. [speaker002:] Your making it sound like a heads you lose, tails you lose situation! [speaker001:] It's a, it's a very, very complex issue! [speaker008:] I mean [speaker001:] And un unfor, and this is in fact is why indeed, general practitioners and even specialists find it very complex! I mean, last month er [speaker002:] And and, and that is you, I mean you are a consultant gynaecologist and [speaker001:] That's right! And [speaker002:] you're describing the complexity of it. [speaker001:] Yes! [speaker002:] If we're, if we're agreeing that women ought to be able to make informed choices, there's so much information it's actually very hard to make a, particularly if your [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] G P... isn't as up-to-date as as as you might hope with the information him or herself. [speaker001:] Yes! [speaker002:] I sailed through the menopause, but then had lots of back problems. And this was cracked fracture from osteoporosis... now, if I had been getting H R T at that time I might have been less disfigured. But, at least I'm on it now and hopefully, slowing down the osteoporosis and I don't care about the cancer, er scares! I'd rather... la, have the treatment and ha, and have a reasonable life. Yes? [speaker003:] As a younger and have plenty of time to worry about the [LAUGHTER] menopause before it happens [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] erm, all I can say is I'm glad to see that it's stopped being referred to as women's troubles, you know and we're actually bringing it out to the forefront. But, is there anything that my generation could do now that might stop us requiring H R T in the future? [speaker002:] Alright. Mhm. [speaker008:] I I think it's important, especially for for young women up to the age of about thirty five when your peak bone density is probably attained and after that you, you do go downhill, to maximise the calcium intake. Nowadays people are worried about... er, drinking milk and dairy products because of the cholesterol bit, but I think that we've got to remember that there's a lot of calcium in milk and you should drink milk and take plenty of exercise and that is the time when it's probably extremely important! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] Wha, what do you do if you're allergic milk? Cos I haven't drink milk from, since a baby... and... [speaker008:] Well tha, that's a bit more difficult. There are other foods that you can get it from, such as ice [speaker004:] Erm [speaker008:] cream, sardines [speaker002:] Yoghurt? [speaker008:] yoghurt. No,co oh well you'll be allergic to that too. [speaker004:] I'm allergic, I'm allergic to a lot of foods! [speaker002:] Can I, I want to pick up er, something that that Margaret said which is, I've got lots of time to worry about it. Now, obviously, you know,yo getting the menopause out into the open so that everyone can talk about it, exchange information that that... it's not seen as a as a taboo or something to be particularly fearful of by men or women... isn't going to be much good if it just makes everybody worry... for er, for for the first half of o o o of their lives and, and then gibber through the second half! I mean, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] there is an argument, [LAUGHTER] ha []... and it's been put by er a a noted writed who's recently written on the menopause that, work, and you should just make the most of being a crone... or a hag... or an old women! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] No! [speaker002:] Now, I'm not saying I se, but it's a view that has been put forward,wha wha what do you think of that? Yes? [speaker005:] I wouldn't actually say that... you know, one has got to suffer unduly, but I think we do have to be very, very careful that we don't just play into the hands of the drug manufacturers! See, they've got most women hooked on, on er... contraceptive pill for all their reproductive life... and they're dead keen that we should all get so worried about menopause that we would also be buying their products until we die! Now, although I have great respect for er, the representative of the Osteoporosis Society... I se, I still think as a epidemiologist... that there haven't been enough women on... H R T for long enough [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] for us to prove one way or the other that that, that that they co, the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. [speaker002:] So you think we have some guinea pigs here? [speaker005:] You have to be cautious! [speaker002:] How long do you want them to be on H R T for? We've been following a group through in Glasgow who've been H, on H R T now for twenty three years! Up there. [speaker006:] I think if you went and saw our own doctors a lot of our... fears would be allayed because... most of the young doctors wouldn't, would recommend to you, my own doctor asked me all the questions and different things and then he says... he's a young doctor, he says if I were a women and if I'd answered all the questions as you did, I would go on H R T. So, there might be a lot of doctors who would... do. [speaker002:] Right. Beside you? Yes. Yes? [speaker007:] I think you really highlights on working alongside with your doctor. I think you'll be able to read up as much information as possible and see a doctor and consult... and especially th where women's clinic are, a great boom! And we should attend [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] it more often. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker008:] I would just like to say that erm, it's not all gloom and doom! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] The menopause isn't necessarily the end of... our life, it can be the beginning of so many new different things. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] I I think erm, that it can be looked at to, without H R T or looking at it medically, because lots of the women at Dean Terrace, in fact have [speaker002:] That's a family planning [speaker009:] er problem That's right! [speaker002:] situation. Yep! [speaker009:] but erm, have erm... problems with what this lady has described who can't come to terms with [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] the... er loss of their fertility... and the loss of their children... and, have sexual problems and problems like that, and they don't necessarily need H R T... they need lots of time, which they're given. And I think that helps them an awful lot! [speaker002:] Is it impossible that your sex life might improve after the menopause? I mean I I wo er... would anything like to say anything about [speaker001:] Do we have to? No! [speaker002:] a friend's experience or anything like that? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Nelly? [speaker009:] Yes I would like to say, it was smashing after the [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] because you didn't have to worry that you were gonna have another child! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] So, though I had a bad time, well I had a, I've had a great life since! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Good! Up there? [speaker010:] What do you do about er, a doctor who says no? I mean, do you... change your doctor or what? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Who would like to answer that one? Yes? Get more information first, so that you know all your facts and if you... ask us we'll send him a booklet without saying who er, who asked us to send it and then go in and see him and say, now the Osteoporosis Society have said this... and it's a very brave doctor who will then say... absolutely no! I'm, I'm not listening to you! But, in the final analysis, if you can't get any help, if he won't refer you to a specialist for help... change your doctor! Because if the garage did your car badly you wouldn't have any hesitation in in changing your garage and your body's a darn sight more important than your car! [speaker001:] I think women can sail into a beautiful old age with enthusiasm for hobbies, taking up new interests of all sorts and... I've taken up skiing after the age of fifty and I'm, I feel I'm getting on well with it and this fresh air and and you know, getting out and... finding who you really are... after, you know, looking after children is is a wonderful thing! And this will keep you young! I don't have H R T, I didn't have any problems luckily, with the menopause... but I feel I've... I've found a bit more of who I really am, you know! [speaker002:] I'm very interested in that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] because that is what Germaine Greer says in her book, it's only after the menopause that you have the freedom and the liberty, to find out [speaker001:] Yes! Yes it [speaker002:] who you really are! Does [speaker001:] Exactly! [speaker002:] does does does anybody, yes! Yes. Well I had a hysterectomy when I was forty nine... and to me life really did begin at fifty! I go dancing! I'm now sixty two and I go dancing twice a week! So, I mean apart from arthritis... life's quite good! Here. [speaker003:] Can I say, I'm thirty six and had a hysterectomy a year ago. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I'm taking flushes and whatever but I feel brand new compared to what I felt... before I had a hysterectomy cos I was totally lifeless! And I can agree with the ladies that say... life begins once you get by all these... problems that you had before. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker004:] As a younger person I, I would expect that I've... probably got another fifteen years to go to the menopause, but I'm looking forward to it as a relief from pre-menstrual syndrome! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] And, I wondering if any of the experts can say if there's erm... a link between the severity of... menopausal symptoms and pre-menstrual... symptoms? [speaker002:] Okay a final, final expert view on that. Who would like to offer a [speaker001:] fortunately no. Yo erm... your er... it isn't your fate in life to have all this pro, though major problems erm, and I think P M S is a major problem. And, in fact er... I would hopeful that you will be... feel better. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] Mm. I have a question to the politicians. The N H S cannot cope in the moment with you know, regular sort of cervical cancer smears. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] How can they cope in the future with sort of er... monitoring the effects of H R T? [speaker002:] Well er, that's for politicians watching, think about it to care about! Yes? [speaker001:] Well if er, more women do take hormone replacement therapy and we cut the osteoporosis we will in fact have far money in the health service besi, because it costs a hundred and eighty million pounds a year to treat hip fractures alone at the moment! [speaker002:] Germaine Greer has coined a term which you may have read, which is er... which is called PM... zed! Or PM zee, I suppose in America which she terms post-menopausal zest! Is post menopausal zest something that er... every woman... could look forward to if she gets the right advice, the right [speaker001:] Definitely! [speaker002:] treatment? [speaker001:] Yes,! I think this being an old hag is what is all in the mind! If you're determined to enjoy the rest of your life you will! Be positive! Be positive about it, yes! I don't agree with that Sheena! No! You only have to listen to what women here have told you and it's not psychological! It's a myth! It is physiological! And there are plenty of people who have spoken here tonight... have substantiated that! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] , my first years... had two children, had no breast problems and I'm having a horrendous time just now... and I'm on H R T, I'm on my third different kind! And I've had so, examinations... and my doctor is very good! Do, the doctor I have now is very good and very sympathetic! But she feels there's nothing you actually can do to help me with! [speaker002:] Final word? [speaker004:] As I've said, I've been on H R T for three years... and, I have since went back to work after being on H R T... I don't think I'm an old hag! I don't want to be like a film star, but... I do want a better quality of life and I've got that with H R T! [speaker002:] We're going to have to end and I'm sorry about that because er, it's been very interesting! You've heard a very broad range of views, erm, of all sorts! I think the most important thing that we've done is talk about it. Ninety one people here wanted more information. There is information available. I hope you can find it, er if yo if er if you want and... and the important thing is to keep talking about it, keep exchanging information. Thanks everybody here for your experiences and information! Goodbye! [closing music]

[speaker001:] Football! Let's talk about football! Just a boy's game? A good outlet for male aggression? A bad excuse for drunken hooliganism? A religion? All of the above? Or something completely different? [introduction music] [speaker002:] I know what your thinking, there's enough football on the box already! Or maybe what have women got to say about football? I can just imagine! Well, I wonder if you can? Let's find out! Let me ask you this question first of all, do you like football? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Goodness knows there's enough of it around in Scotland! So do you like it since you have to be aware of it? Sixty one of you say yes! Thirty nine no! Who said no, and why? Why did you say no? Yes? [speaker003:] Well I I think it's er... too rowdy! I er, and I don't think there's er, all that much intelligence in it! It's a physical game... and erm... i it seems to me that er... people should... er develop their brain a little more and play games er which have more... i interest for everyone, not just the people who like a good shout! [speaker002:] Fair enough! Who else said no? Where are the no's? Yes? [speaker004:] I think there's too much publicity over it! The big games are good to watch, they're quite exciting... but week after week you get the English divisions, some of the Scottish divisions and it's really quite boring! Personally! [speaker002:] But you don't have to watch it! [speaker004:] No, but when you switch on the telly on a Saturday afternoon there's football, football, football! Especially Sunday nights [LAUGHTER] too []! [speaker002:] Right! So there's too much on television. [speaker005:] . On Sunday, all afternoon... it's flipping football and it drives me crazy! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] There's far too much of it! [speaker002:] There's other things on. [speaker005:] I think it should be curtailed! You don't see enough tennis! But by God there's football! [speaker002:] Aha! So it's, so other sports you like, there's just too much football? [speaker005:] Well,t, to me there's too much football! [speaker002:] Here. [speaker006:] I think football seems to, to bring out the worst in a lot of people and that's the part of it that I don't like. [speaker002:] When you say people? [speaker006:] Well erm... the fans of football and, especially if it's like old games etcetera, when you see the results of... of the fights with them! [speaker002:] So you don't mind the game... it's it's everything that goes with it? [speaker006:] Yes. [speaker002:] Or some of the things that go with it? [speaker006:] Some of the things that go with [speaker002:] Yep! [speaker006:] it. [speaker002:] Yep? [speaker007:] I was going to say, you say you don't have to watch it, well you want to come and stay in my house! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Why? [speaker007:] Because if football's on... it has to be watched! It's like a... a religion! Fi [speaker002:] Who [speaker007:] faithfully followed every week, hale, rain or shine! Stand in the stadium and watch it and then come back and watch the highlights on TV at night! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] Discuss if we should go out socially, er it becomes a kind of religion! [speaker002:] Who, who is this who's watching it? [speaker007:] Husband. [speaker002:] Just him? [speaker007:] Well, him and... virtually ninety nine percent of male population in Scotland, yeah! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But not all in your front room? [speaker007:] Hopefully not, no! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Okay. Yes? [speaker008:] It gets worse when you've got a satellite television [LAUGHTER] and it's on up to, about five times a week! It's really quite... it can be a real bore! [speaker002:] That's your situation? [speaker008:] I'm afraid so, yes! [speaker002:] Yeah. Yep! [speaker008:] And I have a sister-in-law who used to play for a women's football team so she's very interested and a... as soon as there's a big game on, on the satellite they all come round and... it's sort of into the kitchen you can make the... the half time [speaker002:] So it's not just the ninety nine percent of the male [speaker008:] No! [speaker002:] male Scot? [speaker008:] No, both my sister-in-laws did play at one time for... Scottish women's football. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker009:] Women should not play football! It's far too strenuous a game! [speaker002:] Women shouldn't? [speaker009:] Especially when the... a woman is childbearing, she could kicked in a womb, she could get kicked in the! Don't say they don't kick, they do! It's not a game for women! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] My husband made me wait while I was in labour... till a game finished! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]... [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Until he'd... before he took me to hospital! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But... how? Can we, can I, how he made, how did you [speaker010:] It was my first baby and I was panicking and he said there was no need to panic! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] There was time to watch this game! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Before we went up to Simpsons. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] I must admit that I, one of the reasons I don't like football, I think it is in fact, it's probably a very, it is in fact a very nice game! A good game! [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But, them, the way that it's played now... is... it's not erm, it's not good to watch! There's too much... fouling! And that's one of the reasons that I don't like it! You seen grown men kicking and pulling jerseys and [speaker002:] Yep! [speaker001:] I mean it's, I think it's quite ridiculous really! [speaker002:] Yep! Yep! I dislike, like the bigotry it brings out in the game! It really, it's... it shouldn't be! It used to be a family sport here, father and son and... mother even went with them! But the bigotry now... wastes the game! It really does! Okay! So it dominates our screens, it dominates our man, it's a religion, it encourages bigotry... it encourages to neglect their se, their er domestic duties... plenty of reasons for not liking football! Now, sixty one of you said you liked it and you've been meekly listening to this wha er how would you reply to, to all those various views? Yes? [speaker003:] I disagree! I find it one of the fastest most exciting games about! I exist with a... primary school... football team and... th... the two skills that they're able to develop, the powers of concentration and hopefully a sense of fair play. Er, the involvement of parents er... in the school life too. I like football and I find all the other views I've heard all a bit negative! If you don't like to watch it on television there is the switch off! [speaker002:] Depends who's in control of the switch though doesn't it? Yes? [speaker004:] Well I would just like to say I I find football an absolutely beautiful game! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] If played properly, it's poetry in motion! And as the lady down here said, if the ladies don't like it, switch it off! If I had the chance I'd watch it twenty four hours a day! [speaker002:] Well let's find bit, a ba ba a bit, find out a bit more about, about the people here. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you go to football matches? Button one for yes and button two for no. And... out of this hundred... thirty six of the, presumably of the sixty one who like football go. I don't suppose any of those thirty six are dragged along reluctantly or or or are you? Well we'll maybe come to that. I expect some people watching might think that wo wo football is a boy's game, rather than a girl's game, but of course that isn't the tradition is it? [speaker005:] I think it's a great game! Football for women... and men! [speaker002:] Now you're speaking from experience aren't you? [speaker005:] Yes. I played football for, when I was ten year old! But, I don't go to football now, I watch the television cos I'm seventy three now, but it never any harm! [speaker002:] Some people say it's not very good for women to play football [speaker005:] That's a lot of rubbish! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well tell me what's good about football for women? [speaker005:] Because it's a good sport! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] There's a, you could do a lot worse things that play football! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well I admi, probably I do, but [speaker005:] And [speaker002:] I don't play football! [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] there's [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So how did you get into the game sixty three years ago? [speaker005:] Well... I was born in Rietling [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] and... I played football in the street with the boys cos you had nothing else to do, you had nowhere else to go... in my time! Right! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] So, I played this and I taught myself... and I had, I played at England and all over for oth, a ladies team, played a on a man's team and er, the we, the west and that,. But, the men didn't play you rough or anything but we had some good games! [speaker002:] What you played against the men? [speaker005:] Aye, well I played against men, but, but I mean it's not the same. I mean, they... the men are more stronger and that... but I've run around a couple of them... and I've lo [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] not lost a heat! And put it that way! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Now ther, so the there's a veteran footballer and there ar, I know there are other footballers among,whe where are the other footballers who are here? Identify yourselves! Yes? Yo you've played haven't you? Who [speaker006:] Aye. [speaker002:] do you play with? [speaker006:] Er, I play with Clyde Ladies. [speaker002:] Since when? And how did you get into it? [speaker006:] I can't really answer how I got into it, me, I got three big brothers so, maybe that's got part to do with it. Erm... I've played with Clyde Ladies for about... five years... but previously I played with Stewarton. Er... I played the game for a good number of years as well. I wouldn't agree with everybody's saying, it's a physical game. [speaker002:] What would you say? [speaker006:] It's a sport that's really enjoyable, I mean... if you want to play you play it! If you don't, fair enough you sports you want! [speaker002:] Are there good opportunities for women to play football if they want to? [speaker006:] I cannot answer that! [speaker002:] Do you think there's a prejudice against women playing football or do you think it's easy fo for women to play football? [speaker006:] It is easy for them to play football, it's like other sports but... I mean, people say that... sports is nay for women! But that's not true! If you want to do it, you do it! [speaker007:] The difference is that football isn't really encouraged at schools... cos [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] I played football after school but was never encouraged to play it... erm, within the school programme, within P E or anything, it was hockey or netball... and women just aren't encouraged at all to play football! [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker008:] Yeah, well my local schools the girls say there's a football team and they've done quite well through to the finals so it is en encouraged in... in local school of mine. [speaker002:] Yep! There? [speaker009:] In some places abroad they have the women playing football before the actual big games which... it would be helpful if it was here. I think I would maybe go to a match if the women played... a wee game before... the men came on. I [speaker002:] And [speaker009:] think it's Milan that actually do that. [speaker002:] Would you watch fo women fo, I mean given the [speaker009:] I would! Yes! [speaker002:] And what about th the woman beside you who who's television is on a lot... and it's football? Would yo, would you watch it if it was women playing? [speaker007:] Possibly not because I've grown to dislike the game. [speaker002:] Aha. Aha. It is a case isn't it, that if you want to be a er... a professional woman footballer, certainly there's more opportunities on the continent... than there are in Britain, is, is is is that the case? Yes? [speaker010:] You get erm twenty four... affiliated clubs women's football in Scotland, giving you three divisions... so it's quite widespread. Erm, I work for Scottish Women's Football and the plans we have for this year... erm, shall hopefully encourage more women to come into the sport. It's a good sport for women to play in... and there's lots of developments... going on in the sport and we would like to go into the under sixteens and the under twelves. So hopefully, erm... if any ladies are interested in a couple of years, their children, and even themselves if they want to come along and play. [speaker002:] Now, am am I the only person to whom a lot of this is news? I mean, it's partly I suppose because I don't watch a lot of football, but... women's football is not generally, it's occasionally you get an article in the press and it's seen as a kind of freakish thing! It's very unusual! Look, look women are doing it too! And yet, as er... as Linda said women have been playing football for the last seventy, and before that, I mean op, throughout the century women have been playing football! But it's never really taken off in this country! [speaker010:] Well, this is a problem we have... basically because again, your your media etcetera... is male dominated... erm... everything we come across... in in our line is male dominated so we have got to break down these barriers and it isn't easy to do! Erm... we have quite a few helpful people within the sport, but we could do with a lot more friends. [speaker002:] Okay. Yes? [speaker001:] I and in Glasgow and... we attempted to break some of the barriers you're talking about by holding a girl's week and part of the girl's was to run a five-a-side tournament and we were also breaking down territorial barriers, we had girls from different housing schemes within the east end of Glasgow, but I feel the opportunities don't exist! We did that and they did self defence as well as five-a-side football, but the opportunities aren't there for them! There's one young I work with... who can't afford to be a member of Clydebank... football, Ladies, Women's Football Club, she's seventeen, she's on bridging allowance, she hasn't got the money to pay the, the six pound a week it would cost her! [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. [speaker001:] So I I feel that... that women are very restricted! [speaker002:] Well how do young boys manage to... to find the six quid a week it takes to [speaker001:] Because there in more er, they they play within the school system, there [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] are, there are more clubs... youth clubs promote it. [speaker002:] Down there. Yes? You had your hand up? I work for Team Sport Scotland and part of my reignement is erm coordinator for women and girl's football... and I find that with the equal opportunities policies of many of the education regions now that more football is being played in primary and in secondary school... and the district councils I go to visit... I would say that the majority of them are... definitely wanting to put money into promoting girl's and women's football. What about the media problem? I mean why why why do you think there isn't more... Channel four, I know, ran some women's football er... recently but th th, they haven't kept it up very regularly but wh why why is that? I mean is it simply because men dominate the schedules? Is there an audience for... for women's football out there? How many of you would watch it? In fact, maybe I should ask you that question? If there there was women's football on television would you watch it? Button one for yes, and button two for no.... Now, I wonder if there are advertisers and schedulers, well I know there are advertiser and schedulers watching out there! Sixty two of you have said yes! [speaker003:] There's nowhere that you see anywhere advertising [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] where the games are getting played or... I've never seen it in a paper that I've picked up in the morning, it's never been in it! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Don't you think the S F A... could help a lot more? [speaker002:] Well! [speaker004:] Promoting it... financing it... from the. [speaker002:] I've a feeling you've put your finger on a hedgehog there! Why doesn't the S F A give more support to the S W F A, can I ask you that? [speaker005:] Er, yes you can ask me that. I think if you ask the S F A, er er at the moment we have currently very good relationships with the S F A... we're not affiliated to them, we're rec, we're recognised by them. [speaker002:] Would you like to be affiliated? [speaker005:] I don't know if we'd like to be affiliated. We do have erm... slight autonomy with the sport then [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] erm, which is maybe a good thing to have. It would depend on the benefits you get that come with affiliation, and I'm not sure what the benefits are. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] The only way forward for Scottish women's football is to become affiliated to the S F A... and I can remember back as far, as far back as nineteen seventy one when we pushed for that... and agreed to recognise us. Now, the only way we can go forward and progress is to take... the professionals' advice... and coaching, we need coaching... coaching for the kids. [speaker002:] And how's that gonna be achieved? [speaker006:] Th, they just need to, to think about the game. Aha. [speaker002:] Be a bit more imaginative? Yes! I understand that are [speaker006:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] a lot of women who are enthusiastic. Yes? [speaker005:] Well it was, we started years ago! [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker005:] I mean there's... would recognise us, they would no of gave you ball! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] All don, so miserable! And... and the write up in one of the papers... well I was... well I'd to tell that guy if he's watching I can ya nip! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] I think men don't like women to play football. Men have got this... thing, that they think it's their game and... they just don't want women involved! They wouldn't watch women's football, I don't think, if it was on [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker007:] television. [speaker001:] I do think we should encourage more from a very young age when children are in school so that [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] young children are encouraged to play football when they are [speaker002:] But that seems to be happening. It's seems to happen to i [speaker001:] Not [speaker002:] I mean it seems to be available for youngsters but afterwards [speaker001:] Not as often as one would like it to be. [speaker002:] Not as often as you would like? [speaker001:] They could do more after school. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker007:] The er... in response to your question about Scotland, I mean I think [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] perhaps we have to look at the societal thing... in that there's something very macho... seen as macho about football in Scotland which is... stand on the terraces with a short sleeve shirt in... zero degrees and having someone urinate down your leg and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] sort of assume that's a good Saturday afternoon's... entertainment! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] Seriously, I mean... people, I'm sure here have seen [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker007:] people going to football matches... and there is this very macho attitude that [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] football belongs to men. If we were sitting here just now debating tennis, or [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] volleyball... badminton, you know there's women's tennis... men's tennis... women's volleyball, men's volleyball [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] there's no issue! The minute you mention football there's an issue! Why? No sport belongs to any one sex! [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] Right, I'm very involved in... women's hockey [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] and er, I think until women's football... take it on board all the way... erm, they're not really gonna stand up with the men... they have to become, referees, they have to become coaches, and more and more of these people erm, taking responsibility. I go along and watch women's football and get really infuriated to see a man out there refereeing the game, and often in a very condescending manner! Instead of carding someone he'll put his arm round her and say... [whispering] Don't! It's not very nice to do that []! Don't do that again! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] And I think that's really important... that it stands up [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] on it's own. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] And I think, similarly, you have to be very careful about having women's games before men's games... because [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] sometimes the women is... game, is seen as a warm up for the [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] man's game! And it's only a bit of entertainment, and we must... really stand up and say... this is our game... and, it belongs to us! [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker009:] Erm, just to go back a wee bit to the thing about th the image and and... the fight that we have on our hands er, to to actually break into the media, I don't, I think people underestimate the control an and er... the feeling that men have that it's their game and we're not gonna take it away from them! It's as if it's one of the bastions of of male power! I mean, we we had, for instance, at th... I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but the Tennants sixes were, were on recently, there was an international match at the half time between, er Scotland and England which was... was a really good game! And we had, we had been invited to take part in that and it was really good publicity... and, it wasn't even mentioned... on on the channel that showed those... th those games! But, we didn't even... nobody even said that there actually, game had actually taken part [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] never mind, showed a snippet of it within the Tennants sixes. [speaker009:] A lot of women actually prefer to watch... play football [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] golf, tennis. I mean, I do myself. I'd rather watch men play tennis than I would women! And a lot of women feel the same. A lot of friends and my family, they all prefer watching men's games. [speaker002:] Now, I think you're quite bold to say that in this company! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] I know []! [speaker002:] Does anybody agree with that view? [speaker001:] Yes! Yes. Aha. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] I'd, I would rather watch Davie Cooper play football any day! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Than er... some of the females, because he's got skill! That's what [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker010:] it is, you see! [speaker001:] Aha. I played it [speaker010:] Er [speaker001:] ! [LAUGHTER] I think, to change the subject slightly to the managerial type. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] In the nineteen seventies I ran a school primary team, and at that time a woman refereeing football was... quite a novelty. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] And, it was the attitude of the other men going to a, play another school, I came across this man who asked me who the referee was on that particular day? And I said it was me, to be met with, what the bleep, bleep, bleep do you know about football! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And, I pointed out that both teams would suffer equally! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] And, I got the great accolade the following season when he said, well you're not as bad as I thought you would be! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Congratulations Beth! [speaker001:] Can I just say... er, in in primary schools you've got to catch the children young, but you never hear of any of the mothers taking the football teams... it's always one of the fathers! I think they like to hold that position that they're doing their bit for the school. I remember being at primary school and the boys went to play football... and you sat in the corner playing... talking... or the boys played football and the girls, would you believe it, got sex education! [LAUGHTER] There's one for you! If that's not discrimination, what is? [speaker002:] And what happened when the boys got sex education, or didn't they? [speaker001:] They didn't! They didn't! We got put into this wee room, sit down! [LAUGHTER] We'll tell you all, we used to look out the window and the boys would be playing football! No I've, things have changed since then. [speaker002:] Yes? Er, nobody's mentioned the religious bias yet, and I don't know how strong it is in Edinburgh, but in, in Glasgow it is... and if people are religiously biased they are ve, very often biased a about other things... and I da, I think people should adopt an attitude of live and let live! If women Mhm. want to run about a muddy field and think it's fun... they should do so! I I do, I don't really see why any one person should tell another... what it can and cannot do! Mm. But I think you'll find it difficult i in er... Scotland with men because er... er er, they are, and same as the North of England, they are rather... erm... er er er, er difficult about, about women coming in to do anything aren't they? I, I remember being stared at because I was wearing trousers when I came to live in Scotland forty four years ago! Yes? Yes, er yes? [speaker003:] I wonder if it's not the game of football that's a problem, but the attitude of... many of the people involved. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] I teach physical education erm, in the primary schools in Edinburgh, and because of the equal opportunities, obviously I teach football to primary girls and boys, but I feel that the girls are not getting the opportunity [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] to be again, learning about football for the stage that they are at. Consequently, they're always coming in a bit behind the boys because the boys have been playing for a bit longer, and I think it's very important that if girls are being offered the opportunity that the opportunity is good for them, and that it's not going to put them off the game of football because they're always in the position where the boys consider themselves a bit better. And I see it as part of my problem in education is to erm, change the attitudes of the... the boys who are, you know, at a very young, and I'll be sorry to think that in ten years time they would still be having erm... the rather arrogant attitudes that they have! [speaker004:] I think it's sort of accepted that men need their... leisure time... you know, it's vital to them to either get out to the pub or... get their leisure time and it's women that's considered... they don't need it, they're... you know, I don't think it's se se se, considered as important. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] I think it's often thought of as a way of men getting rid of their aggression... and if they can go out there on a Saturday and shout and ball and scream, then that's fine! And somehow that's okay, and women don't need this! Which I obviously don't agree with, I think they do an outlet just as much and I think that's where sport comes for them. [speaker002:] Mm mm. Yes? [speaker005:] Not maybe because like the women have er got young families, they're having to look after the families, maybe, on a Saturday afternoon while their husband goes away. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] Alright, I mean there's... I think we've got more responsibilities where the husband tends to be able to go away and do that a lot easier than what a woman would be able to do. Maybe child care's the ma, the main thing. [speaker002:] Yeah. No no chance of a woman playing football while her [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] while her husband [speaker005:] Yeah, if she's got a young family, I mean, nine times out of ten it's her that's got to watch them rather than saying to the husband, oh I'm off to play football dear! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] See you later! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Do you see the husband washing a strip? My friend plays for the United and her husband polishes up her boots on a Saturday night! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] He also watches her daughter... and er... he's quite keen to come along and watch her play. And I think that's where you can start getting the males in the family and just say [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] it can start for there. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] It can grow. They can get their friends interested [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] and take off from there. [speaker002:] I mean supposing women's football did get more support and i wen and i it did become more widespread, more popular at every level, there was time, the resources to do it, do you think the things that people complained about football at the top of this programme... er, the bigotry, the aggression, the rowdiness, do you think they would begin to overwhelm women's football in the way that some of you think they've overwhelmed men's football? What do you think? Yes? [speaker007:] I think we're being kind of unfair when it comes to football pa fans on the terraces because the majority of people who go and watch football are not hooligans. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] You know... but they're branded as hooligans because they go and watch the sport. Now it is a sport, and it is a skilled game... you know, and I think... women can play it just as well as men, or against men... and... you know, you can have your fans who are very strong for your women's team tha just as much as the men, but yet, would they also be branded as hooligans because they go along and stand on the terraces and shout for the girls? [speaker002:] Fair point! Yes? [speaker007:] I work in a football environment and erm... I'm listening to the comments about rowdyism and bigotry in football. We erm... at Dunfermline Athletic Football Club, as in a lot of other erm premiere and first division clubs... specifically develop family enclosure areas for women to come along with their husbands and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] their children, and they've proved very, very successful! One of the few areas that we sell out on most match days, and there's facilities for men and women and we actively develop these areas. We actively develop the toilet areas, the canteen facilities so that women are not left at home on a Saturday, that they can come together on a Saturday with their husbands and boyfriends and watch the game. [speaker001:] All the discussion seems to show that the same attitudes are coming through in society. Whenever women begin anything it's, it's horrifying and shocking to begin with... and as more and more women do it... more and more people accept it, whether men or women. But I think one of the things that men are afraid of is that when women get into the things the attitudes change, as we were saying about bigotry and religion and so on with football, I don't think that men want that because this is the perfect club they can enjoy and indulge all that, but if women really get into it the thing will change as society does. [speaker002:] Splendid! On which note we shall finish! It's been a very revealing programme for me and I hope for you. Sixty one of these hundred women like foo football, sixty two would watch it if there was more of it on television. I hope you'll join us again. Goodbye! [closing music]

[speaker001:] Now we're not talking about diets here, we're talking about eating disorders. What they are, how they can affect people, and why? And perhaps, what we can do about them? All of us, or perhaps, not all of us, but most of us do worry about our food, we eat too much, we eat too little, we eat the wrong thing! I'd like to try and define what the difference between and eating disorder and simply wanting to to to be a different shape or a different size is? But, perhaps you could first start by answering this question, do you ever worry about what you eat? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And in this hundred... my goodness! Eighty six people said yes, fourteen no. Those eighty six, why did you say yes when yo when I er... ho how did you... interpret what I said about worrying? Yes? Yes? [speaker002:] I was a previous anorexia sufferer [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker002:] I didn't have a view of what my body should be like... I, I always thought I was fat... regardless of what weight [speaker003:] Yep. [speaker002:] I was... and it's never gone away even though I've put my weight back on. [speaker003:] Yes? [speaker004:] I think there's another point around that about... erm, the image that's portrayed by the media and and to be successful in your career you must be a slim, well made up woman... erm, and thinness equates with success and an ability to get on in life. [speaker005:] It's also true that we make moral and ethical judgements about women in particular who are overweight... even [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker005:] by a small amount. And studies have shown that... women and men tend to judge a women as being less intelligent and less competent... and certainly, obviously, less attractive if she is overweight. [speaker003:] Mhm. Yes? [speaker006:] Er... I wonder if there is in fact er... a a view that women expect men to have of them that's th... the desirable woman? And I just happen to have with me [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] pain painted in the turn of the century, er a Renoir [speaker003:] Ah yes! A very famous one! [speaker006:] in which all the women are well padded, buxom... and all enjoying food [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] and drink! Now, if you compare with, with today [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker006:] when, when the does, when the Twiggys came in and... and the, the... the angular woman er, of which I am not... I wonder if that was the male view or what is the wo, the view that women have of themselves? [speaker007:] I think women who are overweight have to work an awful lot harder to prove that they're just as good [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker007:] as somebody. And, generally speaking do... twice as much work, put in twice as much effort... and just to prove they're as good! Not better, or anything else, just as good so that I'm, all these things that fat doesn't matter! And we're constantly trying to convince ourselves that fat doesn't matter! [speaker003:] Right, now what has this got to do with eating disorders? I mean, where do eating disorders come from? Do they come from the kind of perceptions that we're hearing or is, is it something different? Yes? [speaker008:] I think eating disorders are very much, weight is a symptom [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker008:] it's not the fact. Eating disorders tend to come from childhood, or problems, or ways people have approached food in the past... and the pressure is on women to be slim to fit into these categories... are er, just more pressures that make it very difficult for somebody who has an eating disorder... to sort the problem... all these pressures just make it more difficult. It's, they are not actually responsible for it, I don't think, but something that has happened that, that has caused somebody to see food in a different manner. [speaker003:] Would somebody with expertise here like to define for the rest of us what... what, what differentiates somebody with a,a, an eating disorder, er from someone who's er... a chronic dieter or a chronic worrier or no not a chronic dieter at all, but someone who just thinks about it a lot? [speaker009:] When it takes over your life, you know, anything that happens to you is related back to food whether it's... you know, connected or not, that is when it becomes an eating problem. Instead of you saying, oh perhaps something's gone wrong and trying working it out, it's all reflected back yourself... with food. [speaker003:] Right, are you ta, are you talking from er er personal experience or people you know? [speaker009:] I'm a sufferer. [speaker003:] A sufferer of? [speaker009:] Anorexia. [speaker003:] Now, anorexia is much written and talked about, but perhaps not accurately, how would you define anorexia? [speaker009:] I would say that the criteria that's that's sent out at the moment is is far too strict for the lot, a lot of women and... at the moment you're expected to be skeletal, whereas th, you can very well be thirteen stone and anorexic it's, it depends on your attitude towards food. [speaker010:] We have to find criteria for anorexia [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker010:] nervosa... which essentially means, er loss of body weight or fifteen percent your normal... preoccupation with weight, and loss of your periods for three months... and a morbid fear of gaining weight. And, why, you may argue that those criteria are too strict, those are criteria that are used in a medical sense. [speaker003:] Well perhaps while we're doing it all, we're talking about anorexia, we should talk about the... er, the associated erm, disorder, bulimia, which is only recently become something that people are generally aware of. Wo wo would you like to offer er, a definition of of of bulimia as well? [speaker010:] Well bulimia nervosa is a disorder of binging. Er, these binges take places regularly and they may amount to between three to five thousand calories in one binge. [speaker003:] What does that mean, three to five thousand calories? I mean er [speaker010:] A normal day you might eat two, three and a half thousand calories so within one... short period of eating... you would take in maybe double that. Er, associated with that are... certain behaviours, typically vomiting, laxative abuse, erm, use of diuretics which are water tablets or excessive exercising. Again, there are very many over-valued ideas about weight and what that means to the individual and a pre-occupation with weight. [speaker001:] I believe that... the root cause of anorexia and... people who binge and... in fact, they are failed anorexics really! There's, there's,th the... the aim is the same, the aim is not to... not to gain weight... er and... the control has been lost when th when it's necessary to binge. But, I believe that the root cause of ano, is is a... is a deep-seated unhappiness in the individual. [speaker003:] Mhm. Erm, I would agree that erm, what you saying about the anorexic thing and the fact that's it's a sort of deep-seated unhappiness, but I think that's far too general. You know, I think that... erm, this idea of... anorexics being, erm... sorry, bulimics being failed anorexics is, a wee bit kind of unfair! Erm, I think the sort of emotional erm... sort of like... characteristics of both eating disorders are very, very similar. But I think the reasons why bulimics need to binge, erm is completely different from what than, erm an emotion that an anorexic could be suffering... from. It's er more to do with the feeling of, it's like filling gaps... erm Yep. erm, emotional gaps..., boredom,go you know, just a whole sort of like range of various emotions. Erm, where possibly like the, the anorexic, well I don't know cos I'm not speaking from an anorexic point of view, but I think the, the point we're saying, emotions are there but they're dealt with in a, a different way, you know they... perhaps starve themselves erm, to sort of like, erm... you know ge, get across these emotions, to deal with these emotions. Mhm. Yes? [speaker002:] And one of the differences that anorexia can become much more visible and identifiable, whereas those of us who have experienced bulimia, which I had for thirteen years, can be extremely secret and well disguised because we normally don't change from normal body weight. [speaker003:] What's the difference between bulimia and compulsive eating? Is there a difference. [speaker002:] Well, in the definition that we heard, it tends to be associated with, with trying to rid your body of the food that you've consumed during a binge. Compulsive eating normally doesn't... go to that extent. [speaker003:] How did you stop... bu bu bulimia, I mean it was [speaker002:] In the end it was the [speaker003:] thirteen years of binging I mean [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] wha what effect does that have on you? [speaker002:] Erm, it it, it makes it very, very difficult to imagine how you'll recover... erm, but in the end it's a personal decision to, to try to achieve self respect, to care for yourself better, to adopt good habits of nutrition and exercise, not dieting, cos diets are the biggest con trick of all... and certainly, to rid your life of people who don't respect and accept you the way you are. [speaker003:] Can you identify why you began doing it? I mean, how old were you when you started er... binging? [speaker002:] Fifteen. Yes. [speaker003:] Fifteen? [speaker002:] I was certainly to do with... feeling that I would have to be a little bit slimmer, that I would have to be acceptable to other people, that I would have to change my shape... and at the same time, I could not resist consuming large amounts of food. [speaker003:] Now, fifteen seems terribly young [speaker002:] That's right. [speaker003:] for a girl to start, to start worrying about that kind of thing! Is is that a societal pressure? I mean is it a... ah,th wi, is there any history of it in the family an and, what did your family, did you family know? [speaker002:] Families don't generally know. And it, it wasn't until many years later that I told anyone at all... that's, that's the thing I was saying about bulimia, it's very secret. [speaker003:] And in the end, did you, I mean wha, did you get the support of of professionals or or [speaker002:] Yes. Erm, but in the end th o only one had any impact and in general,see seeing a female professional was, I have to say, a lot more helpful than seeing male professionals. [speaker003:] Mm. Yes? [speaker004:] Er, my experience is slightly different when erm... when I had been trying to sort of recover, I didn't, I didn't feel as if I've get any help from professionals that I... approached. And in fact, I get an awful lot of support from friends... erm, not family because my family aren't, weren't aware of it, erm but I mean, really it came from fre, really close friends that I could sit down and talk to... and that could understand me and accept me, just like what the girl said as well. [speaker003:] Mm mm. Yes? [speaker005:] I think my G P actually sent me further down hill into anorexia after I'd lost about, about when I was seven stone... I went to see her, I'd never seen her before and she said well you look perfectly acc, sociably acceptable to me so I went on to lose two more stone before going back to see her and was admitted to hospital as a medical emergency! And, did continue to get professional help after that, but I think she was actually one of the... factors that... sent me further down, by telling me I looked well! [speaker003:] What age were you then? [speaker005:] Twenty. [speaker003:] Yeah. And can you identify why yo wa was, are yo are you now over it? Are you [speaker005:] Yeah I would class myself as a recovered... anorexic, but as recovered as I'll ever be! I don't think I'll ever totally get over it. I've still got a very distorted body image that I have to live with. I think I'm fat! [speaker003:] The reality of anorexia for you was what, just not eating at all? [speaker005:] Cutting down on food, I was University missing whole meals, telling people I was training, I'm a P E teacher so sport and the perfect body was very much up front, so the more weight I lost the better I was told I looked until it became totally out of control and I was eating an apple and black coffee a day and then vomiting so that I had nothing in me. Erm... my metabolism was... out the window. [speaker003:] Now, as a P E teacher you're working what, boys and girls? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker003:] Do you see ah,th the pe, the boys and girls or the, the young people that you're working with... erm, having the same... veering towards the same kind of thing, I mean, do you see pressures on... on girls, towards achieving that perfect body in the way that you felt it yourself at one time. [speaker005:] I see boys calling the girls fat and it makes my hair stand on end! Erm... it goes on continually and these poor girls are... oh you're fat! You've got a great big bottom! And they're not, they don't have, they're normal. [speaker003:] I wonder what you think of what you're hearing? Yes? [speaker006:] I just wondered how much actual help professionals are? I mean, is is there really... enough help given? I mean, we talk about eating disorders [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker006:] but do they really actually dig into the... the real reasons for the eating disorders or they just try and get you back onto a stable diet? [speaker003:] Yes? [speaker007:] I think what put me off in th and certainly em embedded was some of the comments as around control of our lives. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker007:] And maybe hope that we as, as people as women need to do is regain control of our lives so they, they belong to us, so it doesn't matter if if... boys say we've got fat bottoms or not,yo you say my bottom's alright an and you live with that. [speaker008:] I'd be interested to know the lady who mentioned that, er she got help from friends, what sort of help did she get from her friends? I mean, how can you help someone with a... a problem like this? How best can you help someone with a problem like this? [speaker004:] It was really, really difficult! Erm, she started really by, well th well there is two of them involved at the time, but they started by reading a book on the subject... and really... just talking to me about it certainly, because I mean they really didn't understand, you know... because food to them is just food, you know it was just some meal they had to eat because they were hungry and... they couldn't understand why I had got this whole thing completely distorted. Erm... there was a, I mean there was a lot of friction, I mean, I mean I'm really lucky to have the strength of a friendship that I did because... you know, if, I wouldn't have got, you know where I am, sort of without it, I think. [speaker008:] Aye, so you related to that more than you would rela, related to a professional, a doctor or someone... [speaker004:] Erm, when I first approached [speaker008:] trying to help you? [speaker004:] doctors they started putting me on anti-depressants, tranquilizers, sleeping pills... erm, and you know, they were, their whole manner was just absolutely terrible! I mean, I felt that, it made me worse as well, by going to them and I decided that I would never go back to them again, you know. [speaker008:] That's quite interesting! [speaker003:] Is it a, yes there? [speaker009:] Can I just sort of say I'm I'm somebody working... on a team er, that deals with eating disorders. I think things have changed quite dramatically in the last few years certainly, we admit very few people and we see them mostly as an outpatient. I think it actually depends where you go to to seek help and who your first... erm person that you go to [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker009:] I mean there is a, I don't know if anybody saw there was a... a programme on, it was actually B B C, erm, this week, it was about somebody who felt that she was very overweight and actually had her stomach stapled! And I mean, I find that really horrendous! [speaker010:] I think your G P is maybe one of the first places to go but the trouble, I think, with people with eating problems is it's very hard to explain what the problem is. [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker010:] And I think that's... what a lot of problem with condemned by the G P is is they're not able to articulate the unhappiness that's coming from the eating disorder, so they're told to go away and put on a couple of pounds... and because they haven't expressed that feeling the G P can't... or isn't... thinking enough to try and and poke into it a little bit more. [speaker003:] So what would be better? [speaker010:] I think, one of the most important things is finding a trusting friend or a member of family so that you can then try express some of the feelings so that you're in a better position... erm, to try and explain the problem. [speaker001:] One of the great difficulties is that many young people find it extremely difficult to admit that they have a problem. And in fact, even with as many professionals as one would wish it's often extremely difficult to actually engage people in treatment... erm, and the whole process of getting people into treatment or into health can be very difficult, both for the young person and for the... therapist or helper involved. [speaker003:] I don't want to give the impression that professionals are unhelpful at all. I mean Carole said earlier, it's a question of eventually making your mind up that you want to do something about it, but then... professionals are maybe there to assist. What you've described must be something that erm... that that families of people who are suffering from eating disorders must feel very much, that there's nothing that they can do... to, to to help. [speaker001:] Families feel very rejected by professionals... erm, in my research I've found that... er, the... families of younger sufferers tend to be involved in treatment but they feel very much that they're under the microscope, that they disapprove, that they're seen as being pathological families. With older sufferers, erm, usually families are excluded from treatment, they're kept out, they're told that they're daughter erm must be seen on her own... and they feel very helpless and very unloved and unsupported by... by the professionals. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker001:] Erm, in fact, I've found that the families are no different from any other families, there's no typical anorexic family. [speaker004:] I think erm... yo e you know you asked about the support and I think having identified that there was a gap in the support in [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker004:] times of... I mean, I actually think it's a... an awful lot of ask of a friendship, or of a family situation... and also, indeed, if you... I mean I think sometimes they can be very supportive but th the true understanding may not be there... and erm... I think that's what led me to start up a self- help group in Edinburgh... erm which is, has been erm... running for the last two years now. And, I think that... level of real understanding that you do get from fellow sufferers, and indeed, it's a su, it's a support for erm... families as well who are... able to come along and, and share that kind of... support. [speaker003:] Mhm. After my own experiences I wo... I wouldn't advice someone not to go to their G P, but firstly, I would advice them to contact the Eating Disorders Association... er, because they are very helpful and they're more supportive than any G P I've ever come across. Okay. Yes? [speaker002:] You mentioned er, earlier about yo, the fact that you were surprised that it was fifteen year olds, and that was quite young [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] and yet, in fact, that's the time when you're most vulnerable... yo, it's time of puberty, your [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] interested in fashion, your interested in the opposite sex and th... the ages between fifteen and eighteen teenagers ar, tend to be faddy, if it's not... er, their body shape th th, it's vegetari, vegetarianism. [speaker004:] I think there's a third fact that you touched on earlier that I think it's just worth mentioning... and that is that we know it's also a genetic... pre-disposition to anorexia nervosa, in other words, we know that in certain families it is a disorder that will run from one generation to another. [speaker003:] Na, yes? [speaker005:] Erm, I'd consider myself to have an eating disorder but I don't have anorexia or bulimia. And er, I first started feeling I was overweight when I fourteen and I was, I was twelve stone... and I went to the doctor... and got black capsules to take... which had me as high as a kite... for a long time! And then there were the... the dose was reduced and then I had to come off them altogether... and after twenty nine years of dieting unsuccessfully... I gave up dieting and I haven't put on any weight since I gave up dieting! [speaker003:] And, and what sto, why did you stop? [speaker005:] Erm, a friend started a... a self-help group which I went to. And I realised, well I had realised for a long time that dieting wasn't the answer for me. And erm [speaker003:] Oh so, over twenty nine years you're saying that food was controlling your life, in a way? [speaker005:] Oh yes! Very much so! [speaker003:] I mean that was, that was the dominant thing, was wha what you [speaker005:] I could have told you every single item of food I had in the cupboard... every, down to the last bean! And now I don't know. I have sweets lying on the counter, I don't have to take them if I don't want to. I'm not controlled by food any more, and I don't feel guilty any more. [speaker006:] I think the lady who said earlier when you go to your G P you can't express yourself [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker006:] I went to my G P, having avoided her for fifteen years, having getting... the old story every time you went... well you must go on a diet! I had been on diets... and to put it in context, over twenty years I've lost a hundred and twenty stone! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Which if you break it down is only about a pound and three quarters a week [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] and I think a lot of people are like that. But, when you look at it in that context it becomes very much... erm, part of your life, and it takes an awful lot to break that habit... and there's no help. [speaker003:] Up there. [speaker007:] I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of feeling guilty. [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] Erm, I went on a diet last year, to one of these... clubs... and, within record time got to the weight I was supposed to be, calorie counting... and then I had to come off... and I found for weeks after... feelings of terrible guilt if I ate [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker007:] a chocolate biscuit! I was mentally calorie counting every time, it took me ages to get back to a sort of normal life. [speaker003:] Can you identify th that the point at which... worrying about food, we've all agreed we shouldn't be, but there it is we do, er... pitches you into eating disorder and er... I know ca, is is there preventive action to be taken apart from changing society completely? Yes? [speaker008:] I think it's when you become inappropriately absorbed around the areas of food... I think, too, because I work with teenagers [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker008:] that early intervention... is... the best way of coping with it, and certainly it demands that parents and friends and teachers, and people concerned... are aware of any change which is sustained over a period... because by early intervention then you're probably coping with the problem rather than the eating disorder, because the problem is there before the eating disorder. [speaker003:] Erm, can intervention, as you call it, be effective do you think? [speaker008:] Very! If it's early, before the pattern's... really entrenched. [speaker003:] Yes? [speaker009:] I think it's wrong to underestimate... erm i i it's particularly initially, how, how positively reinforced it can, it can be around you... erm, just this... the idea of losing weight... and that er... you know, people will be... wha, for whatever reasons are, either envious or they want to know how you can do it, they want to know, and particularly if it's linked with exercise then it's all very good things to do and... you know, the media's telling you and... a, everyone's telling that this healthy lifestyle that actually then goes out of control through... being so controlled... erm e e, there's a, well there's a thin line between it, being a very positive experience, and you're suddenly buying smaller jeans and erm... you know, it's just... everything is is feeding, if that's the right word, this idea that it, that that it's tremendous to be [speaker003:] Mm. [speaker009:] losing weight, to realising that you can't do anything about it. [speaker010:] I think the advice I would give any mother of an anorexic is to tell them how awful they look! I wish I'd been told early on... what I looked like... and what I was doing to my body. Nobody... wanted to be cruel enough to hurt me because they thought I was so vulnerable at that time... and I really wish I'd been told that I looked disgusting! [speaker001:] But at another level, if we could show love, respect and acceptance for each other in the magnificent diversity that that we show as women, instead of patronising and attacking each other on the basis of our body shapes, that would be a great step forward! [speaker003:] Hooray! Yes? I'd like, I'd just say that I the the are professionals now that do know more about eating disorders and I do think there are clinics being set up. Erm, we do know quite a lot about... erm, why it is that when you diet you start to think about food all the time, and why it is that certain things happen, and I think that there's more and more information and knowledge being gathered... and yes, the... na, the desire to change has to come from the individual but perhaps, having clinics available where people can go when they're ready to change or where they can get help. I think very often you do need professional help and it isn't possible to do it with family and friends because of the interaction that actually makes it worse. So there's a practical suggestion and I, I like, I like Carole's philosophical suggestion that we could start celebrating the diversity of human kind. I mean, that's the kind of thing one often hears on this programme, is it wishful thinking or d'you think we could actually achieve it? Oh! Wahey! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yes? [speaker002:] I think the media have an awful lot to answer for! [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] I run one of the self-help groups that one of the ladies mentioned and we looked at an outsize catalogue recently and it went up to size twenty six and in some cases up to a size thirty... and the ladies who modelled the clothes were no bigger than a twelve, possibly a fourteen, but a very shapely fourteen! [speaker003:] Mm. Mm. [speaker002:] So the media, even when anything you do depends on your size,yo your image is all for a woman, your brain or your ability really comes way down the line! You have to look good first... before anyone listens to your other abilities! [speaker003:] But looking big and good are not incompatible are they? [speaker004:] I was just gonna say, I I think we should possibly stop blaming the media or whatever actually happens and perhaps echo what the... the lady earlier said, I think that it's in our hands, we're the women... [LAUGHTER] that could make this happen []! [speaker003:] Yes? [speaker005:] Well I [speaker006:] I was just si Oh sorry! [speaker005:] I'm sorry! [speaker003:] One at a time! [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker006:] I was just sitting here wondering why men don't have this image problem? Because there are an awful lot of overweight men and I don't see any problem with them at all! [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] They don't seem to have any problems between each other either! [speaker005:] I'm quite concerned that my four year old daughter is after a Sindy doll... and wondering whether perhaps Sindy dolls shouldn't be produced... in erm... such diverse figures as real life? [speaker003:] Well there's an [speaker005:] Are we, are we providing [speaker003:] an interesting idea! [speaker005:] our future generation with women with an ideological... figure such as Sindy. [speaker003:] A lot of ideas and certainly worth talking about it. It's something I hope we'll talk about again. I hope you've learnt something and I know that I have! Thanks very much for joining us. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Do men hate women? Of course they don't! They respect, admire, like, and often love them! Don't they? [introduction music] [speaker002:] Now why am I stirring in the age long war between the sexes? Isn't the sparring light hearted and fun underneath all the rough and tumble? Men really care for us, don't they? I mean, the things they say about women when they think they're alone, they're just jokes aren't they? Right? Well tell that to the marines! And that's the polite version, say many women! How many women? Let's see what this hundred women make of the question, do men hate women? Button one, and button two for no. Ge generally speaking, I mean as far as you can tell, living as long as you have done how would you answer that question? And in this hundred, sixty seven say no, but thirty three which is exactly a third, say yes! Who said yes, and why? [speaker003:] I think misogyny is is very ancient, it's as old as man. It comes from Augustine Equinus it's come right down through literature and history. And perhaps, today we would not say that men actually hate women, but there aren't... isn't much obli, er evidence of their respect. They're not willing to erm, recognise women as their equals. [speaker002:] Why? [speaker003:] Well I think it's been a mans world, they, they've had a wonderful time! Why, why should they give it up? [speaker004:] I think erm... like the main issue is that men are really afraid of woman and really [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] afraid of woman's power and the only way they know how to combat that is is to put out this kind of... this hatred or or this misogyny in in the language in the way... they behave towards women. But I think it's there, underneath it. Like fear, in trying to keep women down so that women can't discover their power, because women are just so powerful! And we're only just beginning to realise that. [speaker002:] And what is the misogyny that they're putting out that you talk about? What is the evidence? [speaker004:] Oh, [LAUGHTER] it's just, you know it's incredible []! Like advertising erm language, you know like erm, any courses that you study most of the text books will always be in in male identified language. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Erm... you get comments on the street! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] You know, in the pubs, oh! It's, it's so tremendous! Like it's just so huge, it it kind of feels quite overwhelming to even begin to combat it! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] I think that it's only a fear of women but it's also... a belief in the innate or... or learn superiority of men over women [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] so that men from a very early age learn that women are, are not important creatures, that they're not to be respected or erm... understood certainly, and that they can be erm, beaten and abused and raped! [speaker004:] I think er male society is built on women hatred! Erm, we hear a lot about the holocaust that happened to the Jews in the second world war but not so many people know a lot about the holocaust that has happened to women over centuries and centuries... where millions of women were burnt as witches, but er, just because they were women! [speaker006:] Sorry, I think this is a complete generalisation [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] of men! Men, there are men who hate women, I agree with that... but there are men who love and respect a... a th what a woman is for how how... good and and stre, the strength of women who can make you feel good and who... who gives you the power of being able to be yourself... and I I'm sorry I I, that is part of it, I think there are two sides. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I think a lot of men do hate women, I think a lot of men don't. But I think the problem is that many men who hate women don't realise that they hate women. They think, for example, the feller who... sleeps with a lot of women, he says oh I love women! I adore them! And he doesn't realise that he's abusing and using them [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] because it's accepted. It's, you know, he's a Jack the lad or whatever! And I think that's a, you know and... it's the fact that society allows a lot of abuse to happen to women and therefore it's not seen as hatred to women, it's seen as perfectly acceptable. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes? [speaker008:] Yes, I think really it's a... er, faulty gene in the system and no matter how men... hate women, the majority of men really like women... other than perhaps envy, or jealousy, or... women earning more than their husbands and throwing it back in them, in their face, but the main subject, the main point to me is, there is a faulty ge gene in their system and there's no way you will eradicate that! [speaker002:] That's a rather gloomy view! But, is it is is is that true? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] Well what about the images that... men see of women every day in page [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] three? I don't think that's respecting or liking women, that's just making them... as sex objects! That [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] I can't see that as being... loving a woman. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] If men like women so much where are the men who are speaking about what other men are doing to women? Where are the men who are speaking out about the abuse of women in the home? Where [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] are the men speaking out about rape... and sexual assault of women? It's women who are speaking about it, out [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] about these issues, not men! [speaker001:] Well I think men really do believe that they are better than women. They don't want to recognise that we're equal. I mean, they're the ones that point out, no, we can't do that, that's women's work! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] You don't hear women saying I can't do that cos that's a man's job! [speaker002:] Mhm. Up there? I think it's actually still inbuilt in erm... children's minds, and I think it's sometimes... the mother's own fault because they still... bring them up, you know like, girls will do this and... boys will do that, I think that is actually still... still there, you know. So you don't think it's the faulty gene that Marian talked about, you think it's in the? Yeah I agree, I actually agree with that as well because erm, I have a son and I think and he's brought up by myself... and there's no man about, you know, so... well I think it's actually inbuilt in the man... [LAUGHTER] that he [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you know, that he's actually like that. Beside you. [speaker003:] I think one women that most men dislike is the mother-in-law! The mother-in-law gets the brunt of everything! Prove mother-in-law's wrong, no matter what she tries to do, she's wrong! All [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] men seem to say that! [speaker002:] Are you talking from experience? [speaker003:] Well [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I shouldn't ask you that should I? [speaker004:] Erm, I I think it's less a problem to be thought that men hate women so much it is alright to be rude about women. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I compiled an anthology a few years ago about, of misogynist quotes, and it's everything from the bible, the Koran, the Hindu, to, every religion's in there, all the judges are in there, pop singers are in there, I mean everybody under the sun! And the things they say yo you read them and you think, oh yes, that's pretty awful! But... like er, all women are evil and are the cause of all the evil in the world, says Shirley Bassey! And you think well... you know, that's going to sell her lots of records and it's jolly good! But if you changed it and said all black people are evil and are the cause of all the evil the world! It gets your flesh creeping [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] in a way that it wouldn't if you said women! And I think that's where the danger comes as it's a sort of acceptable... thing to say! [speaker005:] One, very easy way to find out how much men dislike women is not to behave they wa, the way they want you to behave! [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker005:] So, I mean a... a true real example is... you get drunk men in a pub [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] they came up to you if there's two women together they assume that they have the right to talk to you, that you're going to be interested in them, and if you tell them to get lost... however politely, you can get a very, very unpleasant response... because they assume that what they have to say is more important! [speaker002:] Mhm. Up there. [speaker006:] I think this is not, is more evident within marriage. Erm, I think the idea is that a woman is a man's possession, that she should be subservient, she should do as she's told... and that she has no intelligent to think... intelligence to think for herself! Erm, one... er main area I think, is in, when it comes to domestic violence. Now, if you, if a woman gets hurt and she goes to the police for help... they come to the house and they tell the people concerned it's a domestic argument! [speaker002:] What still? [speaker006:] So, it's still a domestic argument, sort it out for yourself! The wo, it seems to be the age old theory that women should do as they're told! If a, the... violence is within marriage it should be sorted out within the marriage... which I, you know, I don't agree with. [speaker002:] Has that not changed at all over, over recent years? I mean has er er are there not more enlightened attitudes? Yes? [speaker007:] I think th the... the publicity that the police give out about the [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] their attitudes would, would lead you believe that they have changed and they have become more receptive to the kind of things women have been saying over the years. But I think if you listen the stories of women themselves, er, who are abused in the home and who call the police, I think you would find that the same old attitudes are still... erm... been found. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] You do read terrible stories in the papers every day of men who've murdered their wives, get off... even though they've chopped their wives into a hundred bits, driven to the Lake District overnight, dumped the body and gone back [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker008:] his school sports and said I did it for the sake of the children! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] And they get let off for that! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] You know, they say oh she moved the mustard pot... one morning and it really irritated me so much I killed her! And the judges sympathize with it, that's... that's a [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] that's a dangerous [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker009:] There was one place quite recently [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] when erm... the wo the woman had nagged her husband, the husband killed her... and she got le, oh he didn't get let off but he, he got erm... I think he walked from the court because the Sheriff said... the wife had nagged you for erm... he, she did have to be killed! I mean [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] this is what we're coming up against! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] I think it's really important to er, define this this brief that it's women responsibility to change men, and to change their sums. Because er, inevitably man has gotta leave their home, even if they've had a father... erm... who's been a if they've had no father at all, they're gonna leave and they're gonna face a world where they have to be a man and they're gonna have to find their own male... morals, and I think the, the responsibility, basically, has gotta come to men to change not for us to change them. Yes, we have to fight for our equality, for our own rights... but w we can... change men and our, the responsibility is not for women to change men, it's for women to change our own lives, our own situations, and for we, men to change their own. [speaker002:] Well there's much talk at the moment about what's called the backlash effect, that in fact,th the... any advances that the feminist movement may have made on behalf of er of women is having precisely the, wrong effect and er... and men are... are reasserting their the their more old fashioned style. I don't know if you would agree with that or what you think of that, and one might to combat that if you agree that is does exist? Yes? [speaker001:] Well er, I don't really think there's been enough improvement to backlash against and er [LAUGHTER] One of the things I would like say is, that although many things have changed a lot of things have stayed very much the same [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and perhaps some of the have arguably grown worse. I'm thinking really of the way misogyny has become a sort of public spectacle [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and the subject of so much popular entertainment! You know, er, Twin Peaks, The Silence of the Lambs [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] erm, American Psycho whatever! I mean er, video games which turn on the chopping up of women, I think there's real misogyny there and it's saturates our public media, you know real erm... undiluted women hatred! And parents are really not alone in in bringing up their children, their children are exposed to all sorts of outside influences, through the media, in their peer groups, and those in many ways, I think, are getting worse rather than better. [speaker002:] Yes? Things like the diet industry Yeah. the diet industry is teaching us to hate our bodies Mhm. so that we spend... millions of pounds on, on diet aids that we don't need at all! Mhm. That's, misogyny! Yes? [speaker003:] I would, I worry terribly much about this discussion and it was suggesting that men are somehow the root of all evil and all [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] all the things that happen, all these sighs of oppression, because I think really what we're talking about, whether it be within the family or it be within the media, all the signs of women as er sexist [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] images or whatever, aren't so much to do with misogyny, some horrible male plot, some patriarch or conspiracy, it's to do with the way our society is run and I think... that's, we look far more at class. I feel more allegiance, if you like, with er, a male working class person than I do perhaps with a female member of the class, Margaret Thatcher would be a very good example of that. I feel far mo, less sympathy and far less identification with her than I perhaps do with a male worker who has to cope with the same kind of exploitation that I do, day in, day out. I think that really is perhaps where, where perhaps, examples of oppression come from, I, the structure of society rather than men being evil. [speaker002:] What do you think of that view? Yes? [speaker004:] Well if, if you look at erm a female worker, er as opposed to a male worker and you look at the o oppression that she suffers, does she not suffer both the oppression of being working and the oppression of being a woman? So, to me she was more oppressed than her male counterpar part. [speaker003:] Sure, she suffers both if you like, she suffers from oppression of being [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] a female in society and she suffers the exploitation of being a,be being a worker, of course that, but the... a ruling class woman doesn't suffer from exploitation. [speaker002:] Deborah? [speaker004:] Well I'm, I think er, although I have no personal time for Mrs Thatcher politically at all, I think she's an absolutely classic victim of misogyny. That the way in which Mrs Thatcher was depicted, criticized... you know, ditch the bitch! All those kinds of slogans were a very good example of how er, women hating comes to the fore... whenever women get in positions women are not supposed to be in. I agree with you that Mrs Thatcher is a representative of her class, first and foremost, but I think the way she was treated showed up a lot of rather unpleasant things about the er... the political movements which opposed her. [speaker005:] I wish somebody here would define exactly what misogyny is! I thought it meant a man who hated a woman. It seems to me that the discussion right now is that we are all seeing all men hate all women! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] And that is not true! Some men hate some women. Yeah, I have worked all my life in various jobs... and I've never yet met a man who hated me... nor have I hated any man, and I think there must be many women here who think the same thing. So, all men do not hate all women! [speaker002:] Would you recognise that we live a society where some men hate women and are able to use whatever power and influence they have to project an image of women which is... which is hateful? [speaker005:] No! I I, I think it depends [speaker002:] Right. [speaker005:] on your own attitude. I've [speaker002:] Does [speaker005:] never encountered it. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker006:] I would agree with er, the lady behind strongly! I mean I think that... I would, really a lot of what we're talking about here is actually male chauvinism [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and I [speaker005:] Yeah! [speaker006:] deal a lot with men [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker006:] in in my course of work, I have three grown up sons... and I think an awful lot of what we're talking about is in your own attitude to men, and generally the most difficult men to deal with, I find, are men who for whatever reason, are actually inadequate, a little bit sensitive to women being competent... I I have no difficulty at all in dealing with that, but I... I'm aware that it seems significant to me that a lot of the younger women here are much more... shall we say, sensitive to erm, what I perceive as being basically male chauvinism. I'm not excusing violence, domestic violence, I [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] consider that to be exceptional, I'm talking about the general. [speaker002:] There. Yes? [speaker007:] I think the evidence though is that men like... okay, we're talking generally, but if you look at the evidence of how many women are raped, one in four of girl children are molested before the age of sixteen, that to me suggests hatred! I mean, the statistics for boy children being molested, there, there are boy children are molested but the statistics are nowhere near as large! Like, so many women are raped! So many women are beaten! So many women are molested when they're really, really young! And that to me... looks like hatred, that looks like trying to destroy femininity, something that is beautiful. [speaker002:] Let's le let let me, let me take a couple of er votes. Have you ever been raped? Button one for yes, button two for no. I'm not going to pursue anybody on this one so I mean I'm not... yo you ca you can answer with er... with impunity. Now fourteen people in this hundred have said yes, which I think is is is shocking! Have you, have you ever been physically abused... by... a man? Button one for yes, button two for no. And that's... ha, even more shocking! Fifty three people have said yes, they've been physically abused. And have you ever been emotionally abused by a man, is the final question I'll ask at this stage? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there we have e have phwurgh, seventy six people have said yes, they've been emotionally abused by a man. Now, maybe, maybe that is... male chauvinism, that the status quo, that's, that's just how life is, is it? I mean how, how would you respond to those particular votes? [speaker006:] Well... you know er, as I said, I think really an awful lot of it is in your own perception of, I mean what someone here might call emotional abuse, I would just regard as a challenge. I really don't necessarily find every time a man... and I'm perfectly aware of the fact that [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker006:] a lot of men are not very good at taking a women's opinion... but I don't necessarily regard that as a translation into some form of male misogyny. [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker006:] Some men hate men! Some men hate people full stop! They [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker006:] hate children! They dimi, they hate animals. some women do and I'm not quite clear that it has to be so definite as... as er [speaker002:] There. [speaker006:] some people feel. [speaker008:] I think a lot of mis misogyny is behind the scenes in the all [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] male world of the... the guilds, the working men's clubs, the freemasons, the rotarians, and even the pubs which have a predominately male culture... and we don't know what they're saying about us behind our back and I think that is why... there's so much naivety about. [speaker009:] Just like to ask the hundred women here, we have the Chippendales, and we have the men from Texas... now we always hear that they're sell-outs, you know [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] th, is the woman going there to abuse the men or to... humiliate them... why is it such a sell-out then? [speaker002:] What, yes? [speaker010:] I think that, that there's a o, clearly a very different history behind erm... the use of women as sex objects and the use of men as sex objects, and a fundamental difference is that... erm... the, the background to erm using women as sexual objects in pornography or in prostitution is that... is sexual violence, the wo the women can be raped or can be... beaten i i in a sexual way... and and that simply is not the case with men who are used as sexual objects. So I think it's it's erm, it's a non-issue. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Yeah, I would just like to add something to that, and the fact that it's not only that women, that, that men are taught that they can rape and they can abuse women, but er... that it's alright! I can walk out or, and get erm, you know... tonnes of... any any... shop I can get pornography that tells me that, or tell any man who chooses to buy that magazine that's it okay... to take a women even if she says no. It's okay to rape a women. It's okay to rough, to be hard, to push, to rape! You can get magazines who tell [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you that that's okay and that women even enjoy that! If that's misogyny I don't what... misogyny is! [speaker002:] Mhm. Well years ago I I was at a party which was er, for a woman about to be married and there was a male stripper there. And, the women were... it was very jokey, it was very jolly and lots of titters and things... I'm not making comment on whether I think it's a good thing Aha. or a bad Aha. thing. I have also been to a strip show which involved a woman, in a, in a club... and... it was a very different atmosphere. Men were making all kinds of really negative remarks Mm mm. about the woman, you know, oh she's got a, she's got a mole on her backside! Ooh I wouldn't have her! Or, I I can't re, I won't repeat here the things they said, but you know... spread it, or get it out or whatever! You know, really demeaning things! Very, very aggressive! Very hateful! Now, getting back to the comment the woman made earlier about men being misogynist within their own world... I'm quite convinced that a good deal of those men would go home to their wives and family and be very loving to their, to their wives and family, be respectful of their neighbours... but as soon as they got in the all male environment, and this woman was there to be used, she was their property for the time that they paid their money to get through the door, they could be as misogynist, offensive and horrid as they wanted to be! Mm. You see, I think, I mean thi thi it's it's been discussed seventy er... seven of you said no, men don't hate women and yet some of the discu, a lot of the discussion and certainly the votes you taken give a very gloomy picture! And few people ar, a couple of suggestions have come up th th th, say that it, things will only change when men actually decide they're going to change, when men feel that's it's intolerable to live a society where... the kind of things which have been discussed, whether it's the th th pornography or the... the various abuses of women are seen as as just not being acceptable any more. Do you think that's ever going to happen [speaker001:] Oh sure! [speaker002:] or do you think [speaker004:] The difficulty is that all the religions of the world have text books which are still studied, which all say that women are stupid, women are wicked, women are property, and women are revolting! You know, you're all taught that from childhood and always have been. I don't quite know how you change it. Things have gone... er, better for women they have, in the restoration of a women publishers... and there weren't any in... last century, you know i... er things go... they seem to swing backwards and forwards all the time. [speaker002:] But as a compiler [speaker004:] And we stay in the same place! [speaker002:] As a compiler of an anthology of er, of misogynist er, quotes, was it hard to find them? [speaker004:] No! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] But I di I mean I didn't even have to look, you see, you [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] just, everything you read you just... you can just [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] fillet it all out. I'm, I'm not a writer of these sort of books, I write theatre history [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and I'm an actress, that's my job, you know. But, I just came across so much of it every where I was, I thought actually there there's a book in this because... it used to get, just get me so cross writing theatre history and, and reading these terrible things! [speaker002:] There. Yes? [speaker003:] As soon as a a a a a woman, erm or a lady stands up to be counted she's looked about, she's looked at as being aggressive, not assertive, as first it's aggressive because they think it's the challenge again. Instead of realizing that they have a right to to say, if God has no respect for persons, why should men be? [speaker004:] I'd like to go back to what the lady across there said about the strip show [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker004:] now do... I don't suppose I'm the only person that's been in a pub toilet, a ladies toilet and I've heard the females in the toilet saying what, exactly what they would like to do the males! So I don't think that... erm... all lad, all females are ladies. [speaker002:] I'm, I'm going to try a little experiment which er, which may not work. I I did say to you at the beginning do you think er... men hate women? An and you voted on it. Can I ask you the same question again ho, after this discussion, do you think men hate women? Button one for yes, and button two for no. I have to say, myself, you know I feel one of the worst thing you can call a man in the English language is a term that's used for a women's genitalia. I er... I, well there isn't another word that women can actually use, it does, it does make me wonder. However, well now then th the er, the vote's changed. Thirty three of you thought that men hated women before, now it's gone down to thirty one so [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] so any of you [LAUGHTER] gentleman [] watching who have bruised egos yo you have your supporters here. E er any any final word? Yes? [speaker005:] Erm, I think it's quite interesting what you just said about er... men... using the, the word cunt, which actually [speaker002:] I can't broadcast [speaker005:] I think [speaker002:] that, could you say that again? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] Okay. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] men using the wo er, female genitalia as a a derogatory term... and if we actually go back to the roots of that word... erm, to me it's like basic... shows you what misogyny's about... the actual root of that word it means, seat of power. And, our women's power, and men are scared of our power! [speaker002:] So you would like to reclaim a word that I'm not [speaker005:] Oh yeah! [speaker002:] allowed to broadcast? [speaker005:] Yeah! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] I think we should all be able to say that word and feel proud about it. [speaker002:] How many additions of Scottish women will there be before we can do that? Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] I think, I think you do need to look at power, I think that's quite a crucial er [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] area that we need to think about. A lot of women here have said it's up to women, it's up to mothers [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] but I mean, if you look at where cultural power is who has control over images that we see, books that we read, films that we go and see? I think it's very interesting, the film Cape Fear, that's out at the moment, which says, is the scariest film you'll ever see. And the fear there is the same fear as walking down the road in, at night wondering if you're going to be raped! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] It actually works on the fear of rape. And that's that's gonna be a box office hit! I think we need to look at who has control over what we see. [speaker002:] Have you ever complained about an an image or an advert or a film? I mean, have you ever written to anyone or phoned anyone? [speaker007:] My complaining was only effective cos we actually took direct action over some advertising for erm... swim wear. Erm, yeah we, we did take direct action and so eventually the ad was dropped, but if we'd just complained and not taken any action the ad wouldn't have been dropped. [speaker002:] What is direct action? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Were yo [speaker007:] Wasn't exactly legal! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Did it involve th, I mean a spray can or er [speaker007:] It actually involved destroying erm, some of the product to... just to indicate women were about it. And it [speaker002:] I see. [speaker007:] was only after then, only after actually threatening property that the ad was dropped. Before that, they wouldn't drop it. [speaker002:] Well it would be irresponsive of me to say there's a lesson for you in that! I shall simply say thank you all [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] very much indeed. And thank you for joining us. Goodbye.

[speaker001:] Mirror, mirror on the wall who was the fairest of them all, well okay not me and maybe not you either, but it doesn't stop us trying does it? [music] Were looking at the body beautiful and what we do to achieve it, we all arrived in the world with more or less the same package of features, limbs, faces, torso's, since then, all of us I bet have tried to improve or disguise the way we look, what do we do?, why do we do it?, well let's start with a few questions, er, are you, well let me ask you this do you have a beautiful body?, button one for yes, and button two for no [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] pretty straight forward question, okay, thank you very much, dear, dear, eighty five of you said no [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] just as amazingly fifteen of you said yes, in Scotland, I'm impressed. What do you think of that question?, I mean has any body ever actually asked you that question before? [speaker001:] No, nobody's ever asked me, but I did say yes, but only because I want to believe it, I don't care if the rest of you don't, but I think its very important that you, you've got the body that your born with and I think its very important just to go on with it and make the best of it. [speaker002:] Mm, what do you think of that?, yes [speaker001:] Just want to know what is beautiful?, its only in the eye of the beholder, every body sees something different. [speaker002:] What w w what, can you define, can you define what beautiful is?, you recognise beauty when you see it? [speaker001:] Erm, yes I think so. [speaker002:] Maybe I should ask you another question, does, does [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] any one you know have a beautiful body, button one for yes and button two for no?... er that's interesting, almost a complete reversal there [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] seventy seven know's somebody with a beautiful body and, and twenty three of you don't. Will the seventy seven who said yes like to say who this is, yes [speaker001:] My two year old son I think he's [speaker002:] I knew you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] he's just gorgeous [speaker002:] yeah, it [speaker001:] and I hope that I can train him to keep it that way mm [speaker002:] any one else?, yes [speaker001:] Erm, most of the people I know, particularly the one's I like, I look at them and I look at them being beautiful, just because I like them, erm, but I'm aware of also looking at other people and thinking oh that's gross you know [speaker002:] really? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I think its a case of the grass being greener on the other side, you know, you never seem to be happy with what you have yourself you always see it in somebody else, gosh I wish I had her hair or her skin or her body shape, you just never seem to be satisfied with what you've got and yet other people see you as looking very attractive [speaker002:] mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah. Does it matter, I mean does it matter how you look? [speaker001:] Oh yes [speaker002:] What a silly question of course it matters how you look up there, yes [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It, it ought not to matter, but unfortunately I think it does, I think we live in a society where the visual appearance is every thing. [speaker002:] Do you think that's changed, I mean do you think a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, five hundred years ago [speaker001:] I think [speaker002:] that didn't apply? [speaker001:] I think the fashions have definitely changed, you know the [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] sixties, Twiggy was a very in, in figure in Vogue er nowadays that would be termed anorexic I would imagined [speaker002:] mm, yes [speaker001:] I think fashions have changed but I think people's attitude's haven't really changed, people have always been striving to improve their, their appearance, even like in Roman times when they used coal and, and [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] Henna for their hair and erm, the men put oil on their bodies to make themselves look better, you know, more attractive to the female's and, so I think erm, we've always strived to improve ourselves our appearances. [speaker002:] So its a basic part of being a human animal, yes. [speaker001:] But beauty isn't, the say beauty is only skin deep, but what about the million people who live in this country who are dealing with siriasis, for whom, that they'll, they'll live their life with no cure, no prospect of cure and er those are people who we only wish, I'm one of them, er, I also run a self help group in Ayrshire and there are a great many of us who would like to, I think extend a more, more of an understanding to the general public, because its not how we regard ourselves [speaker002:] mm. [speaker001:] unfortunately its a revulsion by the other members of the public, they think it looks, and we often say we feel like lepers, so [speaker002:] Well how do you change that attitude because, I mean it is, it, it, people for whatever reason are are drawn to, to admire and and like people who look conventionally attractive? [speaker001:] I agree with what that lady said down there, I think its very much erm an inner confidence [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and how you feel yourself, that's how you present yourself to other people, I think if you present yourself in a confident manner, I think people pick up on that and I do, I don't think beauty is necessarily what you see, I think its how you feel within yourself and how you present yourself to people. [speaker002:] Now confidence has manifested in lots and lots of ways and its appealing to that confidence as much as the insecurity, er that makes the advertiser's and the manufacturer's of all manner of products er, their huge profits, now I guess we all spend money on, on various products and er, do you, do you worry about how much you spend on the body beautiful or just the body?, do you or, I mean does any, I wonder if you think you spend too much on it?, let me ask you that, do you spend too much money on your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no.... Er, now you see all good Scot's here, ninety one said no [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] that either means your very confident in what you spend, I think you haven't got enough to spend as much as you'd liked to spend or there is no such thing as too much. Why did you say no out of interest?, I mean would you spend more if you had it or are you all well balanced? [speaker001:] Yes I would say I would spend more if I had it, I think beauty's a question of money [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] money for erm operations, for changing your nose, your ears, whatever [speaker002:] really [speaker001:] we, we would all spend more if we had it to spend, we would all like to look more beautiful [speaker002:] so they, so they [speaker001:] and isn't it hoped your buying, hope that you will look more beautiful. [speaker002:] up there [speaker001:] You don't have to spend a lot of money to look just nice looking [LAUGHTER] I mean d'you know, er just you know nice appearing, clean appearing or something like that that will do and beauty most of it its come from inside. I don't spend any money, I just use soap and water [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] and Boots own cleansing lotion for my mascara and that's it, only buy mascara, eye liner and lipstick and blusher and that's it and it does me six months of the year [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] only the saiga, that's right [LAUGHTER] there... yes [speaker001:] I can't agree with the lady over there that you know if money were know object we would all go out and get knew noses and [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] pinned back ears... I wonder if people realize just what a hazardous thing it is, to have plastic surgery. I was forced to have it because I smashed my face up in an accident [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and while I started off thinking I might finish up better than I started [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] by the time I had gone through five operations I decided that as long as I could breath, that would do me and I, I would really recommend every body to think twice before having any form of plastic surgery, particularly unless its, if its not absolutely necessary. [speaker002:] mm, is there any body here who's had cosmetic plastic surgery, who, who'd wants to or has any views on it, up there, yes. [speaker001:] Yes, erm, I had a new face made eleven years ago, and I'm very happy with this face. [speaker002:] Wha, what, why, I mean what were the circumstances? [speaker001:] I had no bones in the jaw, which meant having to start below the eyes and re-build a whole new face. [speaker002:] So from your point of view, despite, presumably you had a number of operations like [speaker001:] no I had it all done in one [speaker002:] and that [speaker001:] which lasted approximately six hours on the table. I think a medical problem different say for instance for myself I got an awful bash on the nose playing badminton and they thought it was broken, however it mended and I wished it had broken because its mended a bit, but I do not believe in spending money on cosmetic surgery because I think if you make the best of what you have and think of all the people were mutilated by disease [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] you should be thankful with what you have. I think its the pressure's you see in er magazines at the moment its the, the full lip look, you know, erm, that certain models have sort of erm put in Vogue at the moment and [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I think no mine are too thin, or maybe their not, and, and this, and seeing this in magazines, seeing it on television it make's me think that maybe I could have that [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and if I had the money I could have that [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I could look as good as that [speaker002:] yes. [speaker001:] I think its very difficult to be yourself these days because you, you see so many magazines with beautiful people in and you think that's how I want to look and its, its a sort of, pressure thing all the time [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and even if you think no I wouldn't really spend the money to make myself more beautiful, you think, oh maybe, if I really, if I did have that money would I do it? [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] you know, just to, to keep up with, with the times really. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] Well I work as a psychotherapist and it seems to me that for some people change is impossible and when that is the case then its my job to help them to come to terms with who they are and what they are and how there going to remain, but the other side of it is helping people to change and I have to say usually its to loose weight, that's the biggest reason people want to change. Well I can say personally that I went from a size twelve to a twenty and its a medical problem, its the, not an eating one though, you know any thing to with any diet or any thing like that, completely medical so er it takes a bit of coping with when you've been slim and then all of a sudden you have this weight that, no diet will remove. I recently lost three stone in weight and wondered how else I could improve myself and I was lucky in that I had had a mastectomy for a cancer about seven years ago, so I went ahead and had breast reconstruction. I wouldn't recommend it, it, it was a very traumatic nine hour operation [speaker002:] really? [speaker001:] mm, mm, its I'm delighted with it [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] but I think for people to go and have plastic surgery of that length of time for erm any thing else other than medical reasons [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] its a very individual, personal choice I lived in Switzerland for fifteen years and I knew many many people who after having had their children would have breasts implants and, they just felt that they'd got back the figure that they had before the children and particularly one of my friends she had twins and her stomach was so stretched and after her pregnancy she'd got all this sort of sagging skin and what she regretted was that she waited fifteen years before she decided to go and have something done and she just felt so much better about it. [speaker002:] Now, what's the difference between Switzerland and Scotland is it, is it that the Swiss have more money?, is it that the Swiss are more body conscious, is it that the Scot's are more puritanical, they think that there are more important things to think about, what do you think? [speaker001:] Yes I think that the Scot's are more puritanical and also I, I had three babies, erm I was pregnant out there and I flew back to Scotland to have them and the difference between going to a Swiss gynaecologist and seeing a doctor here was incredible. In Switzerland the gynaecologist would not let you put on too much weight because he was concerned that you'd end up looking like an old cow and [LAUGHTER] because, you come back here and all the Scottish women were vast and they lost their figure's and it was just sort of almost taken for granted that you have a baby and you loose your figure, but you don't mind because you've got the children. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I must admit I, I really don't agree with that, I mean I find that many women who have had erm children actually their figure has improved after the children, they look a great deal better and I certainly don't think that many women in Scotland looked vast after they've had children, I totally disagree with that. It was interested to hear what this lady said about putting on so much weight [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and twice in the last nine months I've been in the United States and I was amazed at the number of very large women [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] but they were all dressed in bright colours and fashionable clothes and obviously thoroughly enjoying themselves, there are very few Jane Fonda's walking about the streets of Washington or New York [LAUGHTER] it seems to me that British manufacturers are missing out on a market that would be welcome by bigger women [speaker002:] aha [speaker001:] if they would only produce the same styles that they produce for the up to size twelve. Talking about, about image, I mean my body's like a sumo wrestler without my clothes on [LAUGHTER] but that's no problem for me, it used to be a problem but it isn't now because I've worked on building up my confidence in other things so I'm good at quite a lot of things and I always keep re-enforcing that that I'm good at doing these things. We've, we've kind of shied away from the whole thing about image and about fat [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] women are not sexy... skinny women are not sexy, really skinny women we have to be like the Madonna type woman and I think that the, the, its about money and its about co, its about the consumer and about money and about making money from an image that somebody somewhere has seen as the normal perfect woman and the norm can be any thing it could be whatever you want it to be. I work for a large cosmetic surgery company in England [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] and I think its true that if women did have the money particularly of their own they would spend it on their body's or their faces. [speaker002:] What makes you say that? [speaker001:] Because surgery does give a lot of women more confidence and men as well. [speaker002:] And men, what kind of surgery do men go for? [speaker001:] They like their noses done, or their ears done [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] a tremendous amount of surgery is done for men. [speaker002:] Okay, down there. [speaker001:] Its all this talk about ladies who are fat, what about ladies who are thin who just cannot put on weight [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] erm the ladies who are a bit obese and get all the sympathy you get all so skin or just skinny and suddenly you try to put on some weight, you just can't. [speaker002:] fifty seven degrees of discontent here, yes [speaker001:] Er, after I had my children my whole body sagged and I'd lost a lot of weight and I couldn't put it on and I was really skinny and there was no way I could eat, eat a lot and I still wouldn't put weight on so I started on the weight training and that doesn't cost me money and now I've started putting weight on, so for the skinny kids I think the thing is to do the weight training [speaker002:] okay [speaker001:] and build yourself up that way. [speaker002:] yes. [speaker001:] My husband is a minister and an artist and he says that the cannon of the female figure is various and he sees beauty in all types [speaker002:] Yes [speaker001:] and unless its a real medical problem be content with your figure [LAUGHTER] [clapping] [speaker002:] do you say that as well? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] er, yes, yes but I would need to, to loose a little weight [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] oh, oh. Who said that?, did you say that or your husband? [speaker001:] Oh, no it was myself yeah [speaker002:] Well you see that's exactly the problem though [speaker001:] yes yes, yes [speaker002:] I mean, you know we, we can all be very er, er liberal minded and enlightened about every body else, but when it comes to ourselves with a, and there are some exceptions and, and, and you've identified yourselves here amongst this hundred, but a lot of us if were absolutely honest we would like to change things I mean one way or another and we all do various things, I mean we certainly wash our hair and people say you don't need to wash your hair, if you leave it long enough it'll wash itself, I don't know what else you do maybe you shave bits of this and wax bits of that and [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and I'm certainly wearing paint tonight, quite a bit of it because its very hot under here and you wouldn't want to see me without it, but that's me saying that, I mean why do I?, why do I?, why are we all wearing make-up?, do we actually think we look better?, are we trying to disguise something?, yes [speaker001:] Erm, I pressed yes for having liking my own body, and I do, erm but I also like the slight improvements that I make on it like erm my hair [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] colouring and, but its for myself erm, my husband never ever says to me oh your not wearing make-up or erm when I go to work I don't wear it [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] erm because I'm pre-occupied about with what I'm doing [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] but if I'm thinking about myself then yes I look and I put on make-up [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and I perhaps then wax my legs or erm, but not to the extreme of having some one else involved in my improvements, I make my own improvements in my body [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] er the one's that I choose to make, but I wouldn't go and ask someone to, to help me with it. [speaker002:] behind you [speaker001:] Its the pressure that er everybody's under to look a certain way and the look tends to have you know lipstick or, and every thing else and that's what's expected of you, so most people do it. [speaker002:] but is there any thing wrong with that? [speaker001:] That's up to yourself, I personally don't do it at all [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] I've not worn make up since I've got married, but even then it was just a wee drop, but, I don't enjoy wearing make up, I feel dirty with it on, but, what ever you want to do, its up to yourself. [speaker002:] right, yes [speaker001:] Erm, I wear make up as a mask basically gives me confidence and it stops me having to be myself which I feel isn't good enough for the public [speaker002:] but then with with your mask on do you feel more like yourself? [speaker001:] er, well I'm, I'm a waitress and erm when I'm working I consider the restaurant my stage and I have to be somebody else because I'm worried that you know who I am isn't good enough to entertain these people. I just feel I'm a mother so er all week, and I don't wear make up all week and I don't dress up all week just a jeans and a jumper whereas tonight you knew you were coming some where [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] so's tonight I'm a different person cos I've put make up and I went and got my hair done and I feel different tonight but I don't feel under pressure that I have to wear make up all the time cos nobody treats me any different whether I've got make up on or whether [speaker002:] right [speaker001:] I haven't got make up on [speaker002:] so its not for your man and its not for society and its not for [speaker001:] no its not for my husband cos my husband says you look nice whether I've got make up on or whether I haven't got make up on so really [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] it does nee bother me you know. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Sorry, I run a health spa in Scotland and I see an awful lot of women who obviously come in for some slight improvement but quite frankly it is the stress factor that shows in the face that doesn't make them quite so beautiful because their personalities comes across for when their stressed it shows in their face and I notice when they leave only after a few days the stress has gone and their personality shines through and their far more beautiful. Where was the little girl, or er younger I don't want to make up because, but now I feeling I'm aged it, I should be wearing some make up here, with just a feeling we should be, when I look in the mirror oh its getting old [LAUGHTER] so [] [LAUGHTER] How do some say just like er that, when was younger don't need them is erm face is perfect I like it yeah [speaker002:] Right, okay so its to make you look younger [speaker001:] yeah I think so, just [speaker002:] there's another unfashionable and incorrect truth [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] were all supposed to look younger than we are, are we?, yes [speaker001:] A lot of what has been said about make up has been very negative its to disguise or improve, its also an expression of er inner identity and its not something that's new to the twentieth century, its something that we've been doing you know since the beginning of time with war paint and what not. I think that its, its often what's inside that comes out and what we wear and, and make up and I think perhaps its men who have the restriction of not being able to do that, they are not perhaps getting the opportunity to express their inner self. I work in a very male dominated field and the amount [speaker002:] what's that? what what isn't? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] what isn't? [speaker001:] I work in the Local Government but I work in economical development which is predominantly male, its building construction, surveys, architects [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] my make up and the way I dress reflects the meetings I'm going to. If I'm going to a meeting where I know I'm going to be the only woman I put my war paint on, if I'm just going to be in the office all day I slob around in a skirt and a jumper with very little make up. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] You know, I'd like to ask a question, why is it so, why is it so frightening to spoil yourself?, why is it such a, a wrong thing to spoil yourself, erm we've been talking about make up we've been talking about [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] beauty products, if you want to spend fifty pence or a pound on something and, and you know from your high street chemist or your going to spend seventy pounds on the same sort of cream, that's up to you if you, if it makes you feel good, go for it. [speaker002:] if you want to spend seven thousand pounds on [speaker001:] that's right, if it makes you feel good inside I think you should go for it. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Pretty much on what the lady's saying, surely if you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you don't like what you see and you apply some make up and you feel better, or you hate your nose so you have it, you know altered, surely if it makes you feel good then why not?, if you've got the money and its not harming any one then go for it. I think there's a more serious thing that we haven't actually touched on which is that many people feel that they are discriminated against when they go for certain posts [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and jobs because of the way they look particularly if they happen to be slightly over weight or very over weight and I mean that is something we haven't really looked at, but I mean is it effecting people quite seriously? [speaker002:] mm, I think maybe at the start though when I said do you have a beautiful body, maybe I asked the wrong questions, let me ask you this question at the end, do you like your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no, and maybe we'll get a different answer then, eighty five people said no they didn't have a beautiful body, but fifty six people here say yes they like their body, forty four is too many people who don't, why not?, who said no?, why, why don't you?, yes [speaker001:] The bulges are in the wrong places [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] says who? [speaker001:] I do, because its not for vainty's sake, I do feel at times going upstairs or [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] exerting, that I carry too much weight and I know that and its like the lady said its not the chocolate biscuits but it is erm self erm... [speaker002:] you can't get the self discipline [speaker001:] that's right [speaker002:] some how, up there, yes [speaker001:] I think its because erm I don't, I'm not happy with mine because it it shows signs of ageing and it reminds me that I'm getting older and I don't like that [speaker002:] yeah, any other, yes [speaker001:] I know my body bulge is in the wrong places and I know I have signs of ageing, I was reminded even this morning by a close friend about my grey hairs, which I don't give too hoops about [speaker002:] some friend some friend [speaker001:] but [LAUGHTER] I'm happy with my body because my husband loves it and my children cuddle it and I feel great about it. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I should say that you should think, well those of us that are healthy any way, we should be glad that our body's have stood us this length of time and have allowed us to come here to this programme and to take part in it, I'm certainly delighted that mine's a, gave me three children, nothing to complain about. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I just find it very difficult to understand paying over two thousand for, er to have your tummy bulge removed. I can't see how any body can justify spending two thousand pounds on, on getting a bit of fat removed some [speaker002:] I think that's rather, that's, that's a cheap deal I think isn't it two thousand pounds? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Surely its relative, I mean two thousand pounds to you might be quite a lot of money, but to someone else, its, its not a big deal. Oh I think a fact, I think its a fact two thousand pounds is a lot of money even to some body that's relative, you know yes, but who can afford it? there's people in the States who have this sort of thing done and its not, its not a problem but were Scottish women and I think to a Scottish woman two thousand pounds, I, I mean I know a lot of Scottish women not all Scottish women well perhaps you know we'll be able to find out for oursel, if a hundred Scottish women with two thousand seem like a lot of money. But it depends what your buying for your two thousand pounds, if your buying happiness and your content with yourself then its surely money well spent [speaker002:] well I, I put it [speaker001:] its not guaranteed [speaker002:] I put it to this hundred, would you spend two thousand pounds on having a tummy tuck if your tummy needing tucking?, I mean I know some of the, some of the more slender women, I won't say skinny here, what, aren't in need of a tummy tuck, but well there's you as a twenty two Scottish women would spend two thousand pounds, what do you think of that? [speaker001:] Their mad [speaker002:] Their mad [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I just go to bed at night and hope for a miracle that I'll get up in the morning [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well maybe you'll get it [speaker001:] and I'll be slim again [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes, yes, go on. [speaker001:] I know many Scottish women who will spend more than two thousand pounds going on a skiing holiday abroad and the risk is far greater than submitting to surgery. [speaker002:] Let me ask you this final question. People have talked a bit about their children and er and, and how beautiful they are, supposing you were a fairy god mother and you were at a christening and you had a wand and you could endow one gift, would it be beauty?, is beauty the most important gift?, button one for yes and button two for no... and I'd love to go round the world and ask this question, but out of one hundred Scottish women seven of you say yes, but ninety three of you think there is a more important gift than beauty and what that might be we shall talk about another time, but for all thank you now, thank you for watching, good bye [music]...

[speaker001:] So you've been robbed, raped and swindled, the question is were you asking for it? and what are you going to do about it now? [music] Crime they say doesn't pay, well you may have your own views on that but certainly across the breadth of variety of criminal activity we might agree that crime almost always hurt someone, more or less, we have a system designed to cope with the effects of crime and to deter future criminals, but it doesn't seem to be making crime a thing of the past, so how good are we at dealing with crime, tonight's hundred women have a broad range of experience as victims, law women, perpetrators, police and others, we'll be hearing their views on the system and how it might be changed and asking why are we all so fascinated by fictional crime from Cell Block H to Agatha Christie. Lots to cover so lets start and let starts with er, having it done to you, would you say that you've ever been a victim of crime?, button one for yes, button two for no, have you been a victim of crime? Er now this is interesting because this is not a representative cross section of er, of women in Scotland, but its an average gathering together, not chosen for any reason other than some are interested er, some come from [sniff] er no particular background, but sixty two of this hundred have said yes, they have been a victim of crime, those of you had said yes, what, what, what experiences have you had that made you say yes? Er, I've been robbed and swindled, er I was burgled two months ago, my house was wrecked all my jewellery every thing taken simply because I had left my windows open slightly, now I've got to sleep at night with all my windows closed and I don't get a good nights sleep apart from feeling insecure any way and er the swindle er I trusted people and now I can't trust any body and that leaves you feeling very insecure. [speaker002:] right, who else said yes, yes [speaker001:] Right, I was subject to a, an assault that was quite frightening erm in that I was working in a shop on my own and er someone came into the shop and locked the door behind me and tried er to pull me down towards the back of the shop and er apart from being very frightened I find it difficult to accept that I was just an innocent victim, I kept making excuses that this person who did it to me didn't mean to frighten me he, only couldn't communicate that he, he, he said it eventually when I managed to fight him off he said, I just wanted to give you a kiss and er I find it very difficult and I had to be forced to go to the police erm to tell them about this because I thought you know its just a misunderstanding and, but it was terrifying [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] it really was terrifying. [speaker002:] so robbery, assault, who else?... what, yes [speaker001:] Very minor on the scale of things but I've had a car stolen, erm great inconvenience, can't believe its going to happen to you, didn't do any thing to have caused this, locked up and took all the precautions, and yet it still happened and some one, some where out there has my car. [speaker002:] when was that? [speaker001:] mm, nine weeks ago. [speaker002:] so your still, yeah [speaker001:] so I'm still struggling with four children and no car [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] and I'm not happy about it really [speaker002:] what else?, up there [speaker001:] Can I just comment on the lady saying a minor crime, I don't think any crime is minor when it happens to you [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] if your the victim, its major, it has effected her life, maybe not to dramatically but she has been greatly inconvenienced by not having a car [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] so the term a minor crime I, I don't think is a very good one to be using. [speaker002:] mm, yes [speaker001:] I was actually mugged on holiday er then years ago and I was held up with a gun and it was the most horrendous feeling [speaker002:] where was that? [speaker001:] in Barbados and er some young chaps had saw me lying on the beach and er they stole my bag and they stuck a gun in my face and freeze lady, you don't do any thing, you just let them take what they want and its a horrible feeling when your there, we were there for three weeks and it just totally spoiled the holiday but the ramifications of it don't just stop once you got on the plane home, it was very frightening [speaker002:] well your talking about it now and, and with a degree of emotion, do you still feel it? [speaker001:] oh, it was feel, it was so terrifying, you just, you regard every one with suspicion after that. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I actually feel, there was a time I used to think it wouldn't happen to me because if I was in that situation I would do this, I would do the next thing and when it did actually happen to me [LAUGHTER] it took me ages to get over [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] the trauma because your so helpless and [speaker002:] what was, what was the it can I ask that happened? [speaker001:] mm [speaker002:] I mean if you don't want to say its alright [speaker001:] no, I don't particularly want to say [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] but you, you've, you build up the strength in yourself and believe that your, your in vulnerable and then to find out that you are vulnerable, it really scary [speaker002:] yeah I think that's a very good point that, that the fact that you've lost control whether its of your, your own personal safety [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] or, or your, or your property or, or the people you care for, yes [speaker001:] I was actually flashed at er in the library and what I thought of I would of done was completely different to what I actually did, erm, I thought I would of been quite calm about it, but in fact I ran out the library and I ran straight back to my flat erm, I was at that point I think about twenty one [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and I'd just finished training as a nurse and I thought I was really cool and calm and I would of reported it, but I didn't [speaker002:] you didn't? [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] why was that? [speaker001:] I think I was about twenty one several years ago now [speaker002:] oh, I see [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well its interesting that you've remembered it, I mean do you wish you had reported it? [speaker001:] yes, yes [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] and its lasted the memory of it and I do wish I had reported it or at least gone to the library staff. [speaker002:] there [speaker001:] I am a victim support counsellor and why is it that criminals get all the help you know when they don't give help to the, the victims of crime? [speaker002:] is that your feeling that, that criminals get more help than victims? [speaker001:] well they get lawyers and all the supports [speaker002:] what's, what's, what's the general view on that? [speaker001:] to because we've got the Legal Aid system, but I mean my son was also a repeated robbed in his car and what shocked me was the, the police they said to me you shouldn't have a pretty car any way, he had a brand new X R three [LAUGHTER] you shouldn't have a pretty car, I mean that is nonsense [speaker002:] mm, yes [speaker001:] so he's got an old banger now, you know, they don't break into it. As a police officer, any woman who do decide to report a crime to us they are offered quite a lot of advise [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] we refer victims onto victim support groups, if its a case of rape then their passed on to the rape counsellor's and also survivor's, we will be with er a victim all the way through the enquiry and if at the end of that enquiry they will also be given details of the criminal injury's compensation board. [speaker002:] In your experience is there er, er a distinct failure on the part of people, I don't know whether you'd say men or women to report a lot of crime, I mean I don't, I don't know whether you can assess what proportion of crime's aren't reported? [speaker001:] I think there's always a fear to come forward and bring the details of a crime out into the open [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] er, it can be a very terrifying experience for a woman, but I think part of the mental experience would be coming forward to the police and they had dealt with now in a far more caring and understanding manner, that that can actually help in a process of getting over it eventually. [speaker002:] yeah, now your saying that, is that, in your time working with the police that the, previously people weren't dealt with with such sympathy? [speaker001:] Well I would say that there has been a lot of changes since the new Home Office guide lines were issued in nineteen eighty five [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] before hand there were the same designated police officer of the same specialized suites, things have changed and they have changed for the better. [speaker002:] I wonder if that's everyone's experience?, would, would any one agree or, or disagree with that?, Monica I think I might ask you erm I think your involved with the changed project is that right? [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] so, you, what does, what does that do exactly? [speaker001:] Well we actually take men who have been convicted of offences involving domestic violence [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and put them through an educational programme as a conditional of a probation order. I think what were dealing within a programme like this is very much the tip of the iceberg [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] because I think women have traditionally been very reluctant both to report domestic violence and hearing echo's of what women are saying here, in terms of women looking into their own behaviours, to why it is happening rather than er having it labelled as a crime and I think one of the, the, the main thrust of the project, the women involved in is to raise the profile of domestic violence into being a criminal act. I think if your, in, in a relationship with the person that commits the crime against you, as victims of domestic violence then there's a tendency to look for the reason you were assaulted within yourself [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] I think its very significant, here we are and lots of people have admitted to being a victim of crime... but statistics show that twenty five per cent of women will be assaulted within a relationship and yet no women here has said that and that's probably because the women who have been so assaulted feels somehow it is their own fault, its somehow shameful. [speaker002:] possibly also they might not want to go on national television [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and say that, which, which I would sympathize with entirely I mean you know, why, why bring it on yourself, yes [speaker001:] Erm, I work for?in Edinburgh and erm, er all too often er we see er female relations er of male offenders, er this lady struck a chord er especially when it comes to serious crime [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] where women examine themselves erm, if its the mother or the granny er did I bring him up wrongly, erm the girl friends or wife's er is it something that I didn't understand and at the same time it er really changes their lives [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] er to visit prison's year after year after year er with children to prison's er all over the country [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and erm I just think that women are so strong and, and another thing that I find er that is very important, is perhaps there's women here we should look at why there's only one female prison in Scotland and about fourteen male lot and including young offenders institutions and er, I mean what is it we are as agenda er just less criminally minded, more controlled, more clever, what, you know we should be teaching men. [LAUGHTER] but it is the case that twenty two per cent of crimes are committed by women, erm and I think that the situation with women committing crime is quite complex and complicated one, erm that really needs quite er, a great detail of discussion, and one of the, the points I was going to make was this question of feeling guilty [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] erm, when we are victims of crime, and personally I think that there are two main reasons for that, one reason certainly is that when women erm are victims of crime that there is of a sexual nature or domestic violence, part of the way that we have been brought up and part of the way that those crimes have been portrayed, is to portray them as our fault [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] er and some of the solutions that are offered to reduce those crimes involve women restricting, their movements and their freedoms, but I think one of the other reasons why generally people who are victims of crime be they men or women feel guilty is because one of the implicit elements in tradition crime prevention strategies is for us to reduce the opportunity for crime [speaker002:] mm, mm. [speaker001:] not to leave our handbags er in the car, not to leave the windows open and so on and I think that really dodges the issue of why people commit criminal acts. You were just saying, you know, that we should just walk in the streets and things like, but I would just not walk out in the streets at night, I've got to be in the car with the doors locked and, and I just wouldn't walk out in the streets at night, not because any thing has happened to me, but its just through what I've heard, I'm just terrified. [speaker002:] So your willing to restrict your movement [speaker001:] Yes I am, I am afraid aha. Socially and psychologically women are brought up to care for relationships, to care for people, they want to do it well, where it goes wrong they tend to blame themselves, but equally we have eminent members of the judiciary who in the past have commented in some of the cases of severe assaults on women, the kind of er quote that you were making [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] she asked for, she shouldn't of been walking along the street at twelve o'clock and when we have those attitudes at the top of our legal and judicial system its no wonder women blame themselves and indeed maybe blamed. [speaker002:] well perhaps, but women get very angry as well, but nothing seems to change, I mean what the heck do you do about it when some estimable er gentleman and it almost invariably must be a gentleman since their by far the huge proportion of er presiding judge's and magistrate's comes out with that kind of comment about er a woman's victim reputation or behaviour as he sees it, I mean what is, what is the answer there? [speaker001:] If every one who was offended wrote a letter, that would be a start. [speaker002:] So once again its, its, its your responsibility to complain about the ill that has been done to you, yes. [speaker001:] I think your treated completely differently if your assaulted in the street than you are if your assaulted in your home [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I was treated abominably by the police when I was assaulted in the home [speaker002:] er, when you say you were treated abominably what do you mean? [speaker001:] over a number of years I was subjected to domestic violence, erm, the last time I left I didn't report it right away, morally it was my son, I didn't want to drag him through the court, but when I did I was told no, your too late, you will just be seen as a woman scorned, your trying to get revenge, and that's it, no, I'm not taking a statement. [speaker002:] So what's your general feeling at the end of that particular experience? [speaker001:] Furious [speaker002:] And er, and, presumably your attitude to the police is not a sympathetic one [speaker001:] no [speaker002:] is that, is that general? [speaker001:] as far as domestic violence is concerned, yes. Yeah, I worked with a voluntary group for a while and I remember helping one lady go through, she was raped, and go through the courts, and... all her past life was brought up, I mean I was so upset for her and yet the fact that he had actually raped twice before wasn't brought up, but her past life was brought up and the man actually got off in the end because she just could not cope with being on the stand and dealing with it all and it was just so terrible that, that, that the, the ina, [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] the differences should be male and female like this was so terrible [speaker002:] So your describing a system which you feel double victimizes someone who is, who's [speaker001:] I think it can do, I mean it was a long time ago and I'm, I'm [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] told that it has changed, but at that time, and I know my feeling was left that if I was raped I wouldn't never go to the police. [speaker002:] well a number of things have come up so let's just take a couple of votes as er, from hearing from a few people and of which people haven't managed to speak so, first of all, er, er people talked about fear being larger than the incidence of assault, are you afraid to go out in the dark?, button one for yes and button two for no... do you find that your afraid to go out in the dark, and then this hundred and that's a very, I mean that's, that's a very significant figure fifty seven out of this hundred women say yes that their afraid to go out in the dark from time to time, I mean that, that is not as it should be, let me ask you are you ever afraid in your own home?, button one for yes and button two for no... and that two is a very worrying figure, twenty nine of of this hundred say yes their afraid in their home, let me ask you this have you trained in self defence?, button one for yes and button two for no, I mean its something that comes up from time to time and I don't know what your view and whether or not its a good idea, well twelve of the hundred here have er, eighty eight say no, of those twelve would you recommend it?, did it make you feel better?, yes [speaker001:] At the time it did, but I think I've forgotten every thing I learned. Yeah I, I er thought about self defence but I keep thinking about things like that's fine but if someone has a knife or a gun, the one might of self defence that I have been trained on or taught in can possibly help and I can't really see it as being very very helpful because [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] very seldom is er one to one situation where the perpetrator does not have a gun or a weapon of some description so I don't see it as being very helpful. [speaker002:] do you think in this country that's the case?, people have a weapon now certainly if they [speaker001:] I think so [speaker002:] were doing this programme in the United States that'll be, but then of course you living in the States you'll probably all have guns [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I mean I don't, I wonder, do, do any of you have a gun?, let me ask you that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] do you, do, do you have a gun?, button one for yes and button two for no... well I'm not going to ask you to identify yourselves the three of you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] who have, well in fact, I must ask you this would you, would you like to have a gun?, button one for yes, button two for no, I'll tell you my own view on this after you've voted... and nine of you say yes you would, what, what, would any body liked to say why they'd like to have a gun?, yes [speaker001:] Well I erm, I was, I was burgled about a year ago and I'm am ex er, I'm a retired criminal lawyer, and, but I, I felt that if I lived in the States and trained in the States and I carried a gun then and I felt very vulnerable in not having a gun because he, I was in my own home and he fist me with a knife [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] you, er, it had happened because I had been, I had had a lot of training and a lot of swindles and thing, I was able to talked to him and I talked to him for an hour and a half er, I was curious for one thing to find out why he was, he, he was breaking into people's houses, so that the fact that he was doing it for, to, to get money for drugs [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and I, I told him I wasn't stupid enough to keep money in the house as an ex er as an ex lawyer and erm, where, er it so happened as I say that I talked to he, he didn't take any thing in fact at the end he apologise for having chosen the wrong house and he [LAUGHTER] went to put the, he, he went away again, but I, I did mention to the police, who I might say were very helpful were ninety per cent of burglars don't get cleared up so of course it wasn't important and I never expected it would be, but I did mention to the police at the time that I would like an future occasion because I've been trying to use guns in America er to have a gun in the house but they er, but they wouldn't erm agree to it at all [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I asked if I could have a fire arm, she said oh no, no, no, they [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] but, but I think that we'll get into that stage in Britain [speaker002:] do you? [speaker001:] but erm, er at a stage that they are in and been for a long time in the States as we will have to er get armed, well I'm sorry to say this but it seems like it [speaker002:] well no its your view, although ninety one of the women here said no and er, if I had a vote I'd, I'd probably say no because I'm absolutely convinced I would use it if I had it [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and er, and well, well, one can be abrupt at times and the that could lead [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] to other things, we've kind of veered of the, one of the subjects that we were er, we did get onto which was how the police and the courts er handle er well victims and indeed criminals, I wonder if I might conflate erm both those groups into one question, its a very broad question, but I wonder if you think by and large the police do a good job, erm button one for yes and button two for no, erm... and the majority here say yes, seventy... seventy people say yes the, the police do a good job and since we've talked about the courts do you think the courts do a good job by and large?, we've been talking specifically about erm some of the more bizarre erm statements that have come from the bench, particularly in with reference to crimes erm, that have treated against women, well now, seventy nine say no, so the police comes thumbs up, but the courts are way down, now not surprisingly there aren't many representatives from the courts er amongst this hundred [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] because er there weren't all that many er available, what, what do you think of, twenty one of you said yes, of the twenty one who said yes are you surprised that the great majority of this hundred women are so unimpressed by, by the courts system, who said yes and would you like to defend your answer?, yes [speaker001:] Er, I must declare an, an interest because I am a, a court lawyer, but I think that a lot of people say no because of the media pres, presentation, you only hear bad stories, they don't hear the good, good stories about the attempts to make the courts more efficient and I think that on the whole and with the circumstances that the courts have to deal with they do a very good job. [speaker002:] so its my fault again [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] the media [LAUGHTER] any, any, yes, up there. [speaker001:] You've got to mention in Scotland the one thing that we've got to be proud of is the children's panel system because [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] we, its one of the only countries in the world where children can go and in a non judged mental way, a panel can work out what the best thing is to do with them, its unique. [speaker002:] We've hardly managed to touch on prisons at all, or though, although, I know that we have amongst us hundred people who er, who are, are responsible for and er and have dedicated much time to working in prisons and I don't know whether there is sufficient people here qualified to comment or not whether the prisons do a good job, so I'll ask some one who's bound to be a slightly partial Audrey, there's only one women's prison as some one said earlier, now your an ex-governor, now is that right? [speaker001:] I'm a governor at present er working in prison service headquarters in Edinburgh, but I previously worked in Pentonville, erm I think it depends on what you mean by do by prisons do a good job, I think that's a terribly vague and wide ranging question [speaker002:] well I, well that's why I'm not putting it to the vote [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think in terms of our our first duty to protect the public by keeping offenders locked up securely, yes by and large we do a good job and that, by keeping good order in prisons we do a good job generally speaking incidence are very few and far between after the mid eighties, things have settled down considerably. In terms of offering prisoners a range of opportunities to address their offending behaviour and to take up erm an interest or activity which will channel them into other activities, I think at the moment we do less of a good job than we will two years down the line, I think the emphasis now is very much on opportunity and responsibility [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] encouraging offenders to except responsibility for what they have done, but also to take the opportunity to do something positive about that and in that were delivering a service to the public and to the offender, so I think things are improving [speaker002:] that we should keep a watching brief [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] would any one like to comment on that?, Jackie [speaker001:] I've just spent six months in Cottonvale and I mean its degrading, I mean cos your locked up in a cell from eight o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning and your not got any toilet facilities you've got to use a potty if you want to go to the toilet and it is degrading, I mean there's people in there, well I was a first offender the first time I was in, but I mean there's people in there seventeen year old that haven't a clue about life in general and it is degrading for them. [speaker002:] So the claims that are made for the good of prison does your not, your not impressed by, well we have to give right of reply to Patricia as you work at Cottonvale. [speaker001:] I would say that if a person is locked up from that time at night, there's circumstances, their perhaps observation for their own safety, erm any body else that can be trusted at night sanitation are not locked in, they have the facilities to go to the toilet during the night, I mean this person that's just said must of obviously been ob observation or was locked up for a reason. [speaker002:] Were getting into an area which I think is a whole different programme and before this programme started I might tell you we were having a little er discussion amongst ourselves whether or not er zoo's were good for animals and I suppose there is a discussion about whether prisons are inevitably going to be degrading because of, because of what er, what, what a prison represents which is a curtailment of freedom, but we don't have time in this programme, so that's another one for next year, can I ask you, we've, we've touched a lot of basis and it must be frustrating that we can't pursue er to the end some of the things we've er, we've picked on, but can I ask you a couple of final questions, as far as you know have you committed a crime?, button one for yes and button two for no, as far as you know, I mean we haven't got time to go into what they might be so your perfectly free to be very honest and honestly reveals that three people aren't quite sur, oh yes there they are [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well there are fifty one law abiding citizens and there are forty nine potential felons if only they had been [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] found out, my final question tonight is do you enjoy crime fiction? and that includes television, after all the station that this programme goes out on, wins a lot of revenue for making a very popular er detective fictional thing called Taggart, I don't know whether you watch that, or what you read but seventy eight of you enjoy crime fiction, now there's an interesting paradox that we will discuss, why you can discuss at home, we'll discuss it now, good night. [music]

[speaker001:] Two legs good or four wheels bad or does it depend who's in the driving seat, after all who ever heard of a road sow. [music] Today we all have access to the speed, warmth and comfort of cars, buses, trains and planes, if that is we have the money, if there is a service running when we want it to where we want to go and if there isn't already so much traffic ahead of us choking the roads, polluting the atmosphere that we wished we stayed at home. Whatever transport you choose is imperfect, delays, break downs, parking wardens and baby buggy proof buses plague our lives so should we re-think the whole business of getting from here to there, one hundred Scottish women have [speaker002:] and proposals and I'd like to start with a vote just to find out what kind of hundred this is, do you have a driving licence?, button one for yes and button two for no... seventy two of this hundred have a driving licence which I think is some way above the National average, let me ask you do you have the use of a car or other vehicle whenever you want it?, button one for yes and button two for no... and of seventy two er licence holders, sixty three have the use of a car which again I think is some way over the National average, now what cars do you have?, now let see what people are driving here... there [speaker001:] Golf [speaker002:] aha [speaker001:] Nissan Sunny [speaker002:] Nissan, yeah [speaker001:] Mini [speaker002:] a Mini [speaker001:] a Vauxhall Nova [speaker002:] a Nova [speaker001:] a Renault Chevette a Ford Escort [speaker002:] a Renault, another Ford [speaker001:] a Vauxhall Nova [speaker002:] Vauxhall [speaker001:] a Peugeot [speaker002:] a what a Peugeot [speaker001:] Nova [speaker002:] Nova [speaker001:] Rover [speaker002:] Rover [speaker001:] Fiat [speaker002:] Fiat, no Roll's yet [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] right, now what do you like about driving, I mean er the, you, know, you all know what the car is, what, what, what's, what appeals, is it just something you have to do, is it a necessity or is it actually because you enjoy it? [speaker001:] I enjoy I enjoy it [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] independence... I like to be independent [speaker002:] what do you use the car for? [speaker001:] shopping, going on holidays, I really, really love driving so [speaker002:] in this country or also abroad? [speaker001:] well mostly, no not abroad, no, definitely not [speaker002:] its a pleasure for you [speaker001:] its a pleasure for me, yes [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I'm just learning to drive at the moment and I find its more for my independence than any thing else [speaker002:] yeah [speaker001:] I like to drive because its the freedom it gives you, no standing around at bus stops and even it saves you money, going from place to place [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] its your necessity, its an umbrella, its a pram, its a shopping trolley, its an ambulance, its a bus [speaker002:] its a wardrobe [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] yes It means you can pack in a lot more things in your day, you can work, you can look after your children, you can take them out, you can do a lot of things that you couldn't do otherwise. [speaker002:] mm, mm, yeah [speaker001:] Er from the necessity in an area with no public transport [speaker002:] where's that? [speaker001:] in the island of Borough, the Western Isles, there's no public transport within the island and er [speaker002:] does that mean every one learns to drive as soon as they can? [speaker001:] or, or even before [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] tell me more [speaker001:] better not [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] right, okay, so its mostly independence and er, does, do any of you hate driving?, do any of you drive out of necessity but really wish you didn't have to?, yes [speaker001:] Yes, definitely [speaker002:] why? [speaker001:] I really don't like driving, I just think its such a lot of work involved in it [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] what sitting there [speaker001:] yeah, aha, cos you have to concentrate constantly and I think it really is a lot of work involved in it [speaker002:] yeah, the [speaker001:] Yeah, its just er I feel you know its, its a waste of your life, you know sitting, I have to drive through the, the necessity to work every day, its an hour of my day spent just behind a wheel when I could be in the train, you know reading or doing something more productive [speaker002:] mm, mm standing at a bus stop [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] and I feel, I find it a bit frightening at times as well on, on the road, you know with things [speaker002:] what [speaker001:] that you see other drivers doing [speaker002:] like what? [speaker001:] over taking you know cutting right in front of you and er, you just, I see things in front of me and I can hardly believe that there hasn't been a horrible accident, you know, just seeing the things that happening on the road. [speaker002:] Have you ever been involved in an accident [speaker001:] No, no, not myself, no [speaker002:] okay, there [speaker001:] You become a free taxi service for every body [LAUGHTER] you find that people just say your going to a meeting, can I have a lift or of course your going well I'll go with you and your never expected to drink, your always expected to be the last as you drop every body off, so erm, I've had a years of that [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] can't you say no?, obviously not [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The ideal way to avoid unwanted passengers is to get a mountain bike instead. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well, well that brings us on to those of you who don't have a license and don't drive, which is my sums are right something like twenty eight of you. What, what do you do, what do the twenty eight of you who don't have a license and don't drive do? [speaker001:] A bicycle [speaker002:] You bicycle [speaker001:] or walk or use the bus if your going shopping. [speaker002:] is that by choice? [speaker001:] Well I did learn to drive but I couldn't nee pass the test [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] how many times did you try? [speaker001:] twice [speaker002:] hock I listen I [speaker001:] that was enough [speaker002:] it took me five times [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I don't know whether that encourages you or discourages my friends, but I mean, up there. [speaker001:] I take a bus but er I'm learning how to drive now because I think it gives you a lot of independence. [speaker002:] Do any of you not drive because you can't afford to or, or because, yes [speaker001:] I take a bus, I live in Eastwood and you know [speaker002:] that's in, that's outside Glasgow [speaker001:] yes, and I live in a pensioner's house, furthest away from the shopping centre and I've got to take a taxi of one pound forty a day to shop [speaker002:] so what, wouldn't it be more economical to learn to drive or would it not? [speaker001:] I'm seventy odd plus, plus, plus [LAUGHTER] the roads are far too busy for me now, I used to drive, but not now. [speaker002:] What's public transport like then?, I mean its obvious erm [speaker001:] Hopeless [speaker002:] really? [speaker001:] absolutely [speaker002:] Is it worse than it was? [speaker001:] definitely [speaker002:] Is that the general, I mean I don't know for all you car drivers have any thing to say about public transport, maybe you don't know any more but those of you who use it, I mean is hopeless the general view?, yes [speaker001:] Its quite boring being in a car, its just yourself, but there's always people to look at, its quite an adventure [LAUGHTER] going on public transport and just [speaker002:] what do you use and where? [speaker001:] You, erm, I use buses and cars and I use a bike as well, er, er I think that, we used to have a car and I stopped using it, I used it, we had it when the kids were small and I found it really good for getting them around and it really was necessary to young mothers but their big now and I don't have to chauffeur. I thing recently the bus service has got dreadful since they brought in er private buses to their local areas, it was good for the first few months, but when they find out that its not paying at all, they take them off, they don't tell you, the bus just disappears so your left with the usual one that used to be on.... Er, yes I am a person who uses public transport and I believe in it very much, but I must say that erm its very, very inconvenient, I have to rely on three different forms of public transport to get to my work and it takes twice as long as it would as if I, if I could go by car and so I can see the, the attraction of, of going by car and there are many improvements that could be made where I live for instance in, in Glasgow so that you would only have one change and not constantly shuttling to and fro between stations and buses and so forth. [speaker002:] Now we haven't, erm talking about er cars as to other forms of transport and on the whole there's been more complaints about the public transport than they have about cars, but you surely don't think or maybe you do, I mean what's bad about cars?, I mentioned a couple of things at the start that, er yes. [speaker001:] You have to always look for a parking space in [speaker002:] true, what else?, yes [speaker001:] I think for people generally, I mean there's a lot more pollution with cars and for the children who are at pram level or at the exhaust level, its, it can be quite lethal in city centre's with cars circling to park and such like. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I don't think the whole question of cars and safety has never really been looked at properly it all seems to do, to be to do with cars and performance and I would like to see a lot more about cars and safety and like [speaker002:] what, what kind of things? [speaker001:] oh, any thing at all, just looking at cars and getting the design right so you cut down on accidents, really I think that this hasn't been looked at because its male dominated Its not necessary the vehicles that are in the wrong its the people who drive them who are in the wrong Yes its them that should actually be looked at as opposed to the, to the vehicle's themselves. [speaker002:] You said something interesting, which I didn't pick up there that er, you said that policy making presumably you were suggesting is male dominated [speaker001:] well I do feel that a car is looked at from a performance point of view, I mean I agree that a lot of bad drivers, but I still think you could help a lot by getting the design of the car right, because sometimes accidents do happen, even though nobody is really at fault and er I feel strongly that were looking at it from the wrong way round. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I agree, I find it quite difficult to drive a lot of vehicles because I'm very small and especially if you've got small feet and I think there's a big problem in that area and that it should be looked at for small people driving cars. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] Er I think that advertising has a lot to answer for, er we have this er, you know on cigarette's there are so many notices and yet we get all this hype in television ads about cars, well cars are basically to get you from A to B and er there should be restrictions in advertising and try and get away from this macho image that the car has, its in, its a necessity of life its not something which... alters your ego. [speaker002:] Oh does it not? [speaker001:] Well it seems to of done a great deal of, of male's cases. [speaker002:] Well it has been suggested of course that the people do experience personality changes when their behind [speaker001:] yeah [speaker002:] the wheel of the car, I mean I wonder, I wonder what you think of that, let me ask you this question, do erm, do men's personalities change behind the wheel do you think?, button one for yes, button two for no and vote now, and you'll be interested to know that in this hundred eighty five of you think that personalities change, do they get better? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well let me ask you this in this case, do women's personalities change behind the wheel?, button one for yes and button two for no... well, well, well [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well eighty five per cent of me, well eighty five of you think that men's personalities change, only fifty seven of you think that women's personalities change, what is the difference I ask you?, yes [speaker001:] I happen to drive a very small car er a Fiat one, two, six and you can't get much smaller than that and I am much more aggressive when I'm driving that for the simple reason I think its this sort of principle although I'm nearly six foot in that I'm a small person and the small person mentality comes out because I get cut up continuously, they don't do that when I'm driving my husband's car which is a Volvo, er they will cut in front of me, I don't think they, if they knew what my brakes were like they wouldn't do it. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Behind you, yeah. [speaker001:] I think women have got children to be responsible for and that does make them more responsible and careful drivers [speaker002:] mm, yeah [speaker001:] I'm a very, oh sorry [speaker002:] well both of you, one, further one, yes [speaker001:] I'm a very new driver so I'm very careful and very cautious, not a very good pedestrian, I tend to wave a fist and walk out whereas I always give the other person, you know I always sort of wave them on whereon in the car being a very new driver I am very cautious [speaker002:] you'll change [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I'm a very careful driver but I will admit I don't like men getting away first at the lights [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] why?, what does it matter? [speaker001:] because they do it to me so often so I'm determined their not going to get away first. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I think er a lot of it has to do with confidence, the more confidence you get the quieter driving erm, I'm afraid the more aggressive you become whether your a man or a woman... but er quiet. Its a very stressful situation and its a very artificial situation, very often your on your own and there's a lot of things happening, your in busy traffic or your on a very dangerous road or whatever and I think sometimes and I'm not saying there's any difference between male and female as far as that's concerned but I think its a way of your, getting your er aggression out [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] your frustration [speaker002:] there [speaker001:] I drive many buses as well as cars and I find I'm very aggressive in cars, but when I'm sitting high up in the seat of a mini bus looking down on every one your not so aggressive, you feel well I've got the right of way, nobody's going to argue with me. [speaker002:] Well the suggestion is this then, if we all drive around in tanks or [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well then we'd all be tremendously specific, well let me ask some one who does drive around on the closest we've got to a tank driver here, Gillian you drive something very large [speaker001:] Yes [speaker002:] and does that mean your a very calm person because your so big, I mean no one [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] no one 's going to get you on the road, I mean what, what exactly do you drive? [speaker001:] no well because your looking down on every body else you tend to feel erm, well I feel sort of that you've got to er feel responsible for them and look after them [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and that's the criticism that I'm told is I'm not quite aggressive enough when I'm driving a truck, but I, I don't see it that way, I'm not being aggressive. [speaker002:] who tells you your not a, I mean aggressive truck drivers are frightening [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] idea [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] who's, who's telling you your not aggressive enough? [speaker001:] well its not its [speaker002:] what are you supposed to do? [speaker001:] its, it, the other truck drivers and I have to say that erm to a certain extent you do need to be forceful and positive because er they need a lot of space to manoeuvre on the road and a lot of people who drive cars don't quite realize how much space they need and if they won't give you the space you have to take it. [speaker002:] Do you, I wonder if you think your a good driver, I mean there are, I mean I, I should remind you there are five thousand people killed on Britain's roads every year, there are sixty three thousand people seriously injured, they reckon that car accidents cost something like five thousand million pounds in Britain every year. Why is that?, is it because there's too much traffic?, because were driving badly?, yes [speaker001:] I, I used to drive Sheena, but I can safely say that I live on the A seventy seven, aggression is equally as bad as drinking driving, because you see it happening on that road every day, aggression they cut out they cut in, you don't know where their coming from, er at least a drunken driver tries to go straight and make's the mistake [LAUGHTER] its true, their, their both, their both at fault and I think a bad tempered driver is every as bit as bad as a drunken driver. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Survey show basically that men have a greater accidents, i.e. they, they do proceed when they shouldn't etcetera, erm women tend to do stupid things like, erm reverse into parking spaces that are too small [LAUGHTER] that kind of stuff. [speaker002:] You see I get the impression that, that most of you more or less are willing to except all the bad things about cars because given at this particular hundred has sixty three car er, car or vehicle owners, you'll put up with the danger and the pollution and er, er all the various bad side effects of the motor industry because weighing things up you've got independence, you've got freedom, you've got shelter, a wardrobe, some where to carry the kids, is, would that be a correct estimate, is that, that, that is a general [speaker001:] yes [speaker002:] feeling. I should ask you actually which is a, have you ever been in an accident?, erm hang on a minute, button one for yes, button two for no, have you ever been in an accident? Now you see this is an extraordinary figure, you all, crikey [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well three of you aren't sure [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] but fifty seven of you out of sixty three car owners have been in an accident, is that, yes [speaker001:] Yeah, but your saying been in, erm they may have happened to you, I've been bashed into time and time again [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] really [speaker001:] and I've had three accidents and I've been stationery every time, so somebody's done something to me, so I've had three [speaker002:] fair point, its still er, I mean its a considerable number, I mean you can see why the insurance company's are doing quite well, but your willing to put up with that as well for the, for the good points of a car, for the freedom that er, that cars give you and the safety someone has said, the individual safety as a woman, yes. [speaker001:] Can I make the point as a country dweller [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] that driving is not a choice, driving is a necessity [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I have never lived any nearer than a mile from a public bus and at one point it would be maybe two and a half miles from that bus, so my children, well my children are grown up now, but my children got nowhere or did nothing if I didn't drive... nobody delivers the shopping... nobody goes brings it to the door brings the prescription, er we've talked a lot about town transport [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] but in the country er public transport is essential but er access to a car is ess is really essential and for those who can't afford it I do not know how they survive in the country. [speaker002:] behind you. [speaker001:] I think that its, its choice that's something we haven't sort of looked at tonight, I think its the important er factor in a fact that we've got an audience here with a large representative er percentage of er access to a car and certainly erm I working in the transport field in West Central Scotland, er that is not the case, in Glasgow where the car ownership is something in the order of seventy per cent of the population do not have access to a car or do not have access in a household, we, you are then talking, you have to look very, very seriously at what public transport must provide in order to meet just day, day to day activities and I think that this choice aspect is something that is absolutely vital as the lady in front says. [speaker002:] Now if this is erm, a perhaps a non representative hundred in so far as if, if you can compare it with er the, the average in the West of Scotland, I know your speaking as, as an expert because you work, well, well tell me exactly what you do, I know your with the transport [speaker001:] yes, er planning officer with the passenger transport executive in Glasgow [speaker002:] do you think women's needs are [speaker001:] which covers the whole of Strathclyde. [speaker002:] sufficiently taking into account when it comes to planning transport policy? [speaker001:] What I'd like to say is I think erm certainly in Scotland and in Strathclyde area that four years ago, erm the first women in transport survey was actually carried out, erm and it was carried out elsewhere in Britain and er this was as I say the first study that had been done and the results were very surprising. Erm I'm not saying that er there weren't problems in security and using public transport and fear of using public transport after dark, but we were quite surprised that compared with the rest of the U K it was erm not acceptable but it gave us an indication on, on where to go from there on, erm and also I think er the important factor that in the lower in Strathclyde that we've actually consulted women in terms of er what they want and what they need er in the transport world erm in public transport and that's not lip service we've actually had discussions groups and that information has been fed into the large erm public transport review that were undertaking at the present time. I would like to ask, why, when there co-operation at the, the Strathclyde bus company they have buses that are running choc-a-block constantly full, but then again suddenly a bus that doesn't pay its full way is taken off and people that are dependant on that bus are left without any transport, why can't the busy bus subsidise the bus that isn't?, because after it its public transport, so is it a complete and utter profit that the buses are running for or is it for the convenience of the public? because it is [speaker002:] what do you think? [speaker001:] a public service. I think its profit, definitely profit. Yeah since deregulation the er local authorities have had very little er that they can do apart from subsidise certain services and obviously [speaker002:] now you work with Edinburgh District Council don't you? [speaker001:] I work with Lothian Mutinal Council [speaker002:] oh sorry, pardon me [speaker001:] erm and, obviously there is, there is a set budget and they can't subsidise all the off peak journeys, but a lot of women do travel off peak times, they don't need, they don't necessary always travel at the peak times, when the buses are most regular. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Well, when, when it comes to talking about er transport in a rural area and, and talking about transport in the Western Isles, er were not talking about buses or trains, were talking about ferries and, and planes and you just wonder when you hear some of the statistics erm from these companies just what sort of service they are at providing to local people, where your talking about ferries at arriving in, in port at half past eleven to half past twelve at night, that's not a service for local people, I mean you hear about British Airways increasing their domestic fares to er, by seven per cent as of the beginning of April er you just have to ask is this a service been put up provided for er local people, and it just isn't. I'd just like to make a point and its confirming what the young lady said down there about deregulation and although you, you [speaker002:] now your, your speaking as a bus driver [speaker001:] I'm speaking as a bus driver, yes, within a company that's about to be privatized, and yes of course the bottom line is important and management think that it is vitally important and we know no longer get subsidies from any where including the Government, unlike your erm Local District Council, operated services so its very, very difficult for people in our position to actually keep services on the road if they don't pay. [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] Could I also say that erm again going back to Strathclyde that there is a, a social, there is a subsidy for those services erm where there is a social need up to a certain point and that is governed by the finance available, but its not as though, this is just the commercial network, in fact, er I think its erm something in the order of ninety two per cent of services in Strathclyde are commercially operated and it is Strathclyde region that fills the gaps. [speaker002:] I'm glad all your transport users are, are now coming out of the woodwork, but you are the minority in this hundred, now of the majority the car drivers do you feel any resent of responsibility towards users of public transport, I mean there are all manner of er plans afoot to, to slightly further tax or er charge drivers so that roads can be subsidised, I don't know that it would subsidise public transport, but there are penalties coming up for private car users and drivers, do you approve?, do you disapprove, do you think that's fair enough?, no one 's said any thing about pollution yet, yes [speaker001:] Oh I quite agree because I think that there people that have, I'm a car driver, but if I'm in inner city I tend not to use that, I use public transport [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] because er the roads are choked and I think that er public transport in the city should be improved and people discouraged from using their cars in our city. [speaker002:] so you would be willing to pay more would you, for the, to, to use your car in the city? [speaker001:] I, I wouldn't use it in the city I just don't use it [speaker002:] you wouldn't use it [speaker001:] in the city [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I'm a car owner who's actually thinking of selling my car because I don't use it much in Glasgow I don't need to, I can actually walk to work and to come to somewhere like Edinburgh tonight I would much prefer to use the train, but I think we could have much more adequal plans to do with pedestrianizing city centres so that cars were banned from them altogether, they could bring back trams which are much less in terms of pollution, they might not make us big profits for the company's but they are a very good way, we, a lot of European cities still use trams. [speaker002:] lady there. [speaker001:] Can I make a plug for the Glasgow underground system [LAUGHTER] I'm a great believer in it, I, I park my car close to that and find it a most convenient way of travelling around. [speaker002:] Well it may be an accident but Strathclyde in Glasgow seemed to er be taking all the honours tonight, yes [speaker001:] Public transport could never meet every one's needs, but it should be seen as a social service and erm we feel that more passes should be issued to people on buses and trains that are disabled or, or the elderly to encourage them to use it more. [speaker002:] Well we had a secretary of state here who is now minister of transport, I do hope he's watching this programme seeing as I promised we have had gains and proposals. We are coming to an end, let me remind you that er of this particular hundred, sixty three of whom have the use of a car, fifty seven have been involved in an accident, fifty seven and I'm sure it can't be a, er it must be a coincidence say their personalities change behind the driving wheel [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] let me ask you one final question and its a cheeky one and er, I want to know whether you drink and drive, I'm not going to, we haven't got any time for debate, I'm just interested to know would you say that you drink and drive?, this is not policy any more, button one for yes, button two for no, your told it as a simply for a, a kind of statistical... er oh, er some of you are being rather coy and not voting [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] seven of you say yes you do, well you know who you are, don't good night. [music]

[speaker001:] Love the ultimate four letter word and were about to use it all over your television screen. [music] Where do you start with love, every body wants to love, every body wants to be loved, every one at some time or another is disappointed by love and while its difficult sometimes talking about it not talking about it can have some really serious consequences, so let's try to get to the heart of it tonight, one hundred women are prepared to share their wisdom if not their secrets, I'd like to start off by seeing if we can differentiate between loving and being in love. Have you ever been in love?, are you now?, button one for yes, button two for no... and in this hundred, woof ninety three people have been in love, what, what happened?, I mean what, what how did you know you were in love? How did you know that was, that, that was what it was?, yes Temporary madness [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] can [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] only temporary [speaker001:] er, well it does wear off you can't, you can't, you can't [LAUGHTER] sustain it indefinitely [speaker002:] and what, what were the symptoms in your case?... [speaker001:] oh can I remember that far back [LAUGHTER] erm... [speaker002:] loss of memory? [speaker001:] yes definitely that erm [LAUGHTER] loss of common sense certainly. [speaker002:] would you agree the ninety three of you, is that what characterises being in love, temporary madness?, any other, no well what then?, yes [speaker001:] Er yeah, sorry, I write romantic fictions not just lust [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Being in love I think erm its not something that you have to end it happens to you, its not because er a terribly admire the person I er, your only achievements, its just something that happens and common sense goes out the window. [speaker002:] so you suggest that Sandra might be right? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] something like [] [speaker002:] and [speaker001:] there might be something in it yes [speaker002:] erm, yes, up there [speaker001:] Well I don't agree with that, I think that when your in love with someone you want to be with them all the time, you think about them during the day, you think about them at night, you just want to be with them and usually you like how they look, you like how they talk, they like, you like how they treat you and er to me that's, its wonderful, just [speaker002:] has [speaker001:] wonderful [speaker002:] how many times has this happened to you? [speaker001:] many times [LAUGHTER] many times, at one time I thought it would never happen again, I thought this was it forever, but life isn't like that, things happen and it does change. [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] It, it is a form of an obsession and it is an excitement and there's a warmth and there's a funniness about it and it just wonderful, better being in love than not being in love surely. [speaker002:] mm, yes [speaker001:] No I feel er kind a be lost, it depends on what relationship your looking for. I think if its the right one its definitely not lust its every minute admiration for them, just to be with that person. [speaker002:] so, so lust is what you feel for the wrong one? [speaker001:] That's afterwards [LAUGHTER] yes, I, first meet them, then you can say its lust. [speaker002:] there [speaker001:] Can you not start with being in love with someone and end up by loving them? Yes it isn't always a drastic ending is it? [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I think its just an extreme form of friendship, you've become extremely friendly with somebody and it can be kind, in love with your, with your girlfriend it don't have to be in love with your boyfriend, you can have you know some body who's a same sex and you've got the same feelings towards them [speaker002:] that's, that', that's love is it? [speaker001:] its definitely not lust [speaker002:] but [speaker001:] But there has to be something to trigger the interest in the first place and whatever that is and however mild a form that might be lust, lust might be a more extreme form of it, but there has to be something to interest you in the first place, before you can go on to love, to knowing more about the person and having this in love feeling develop into love. [speaker002:] well what is that thing then?, I mean what, what is it that attracts you, you ninety three people who have been in love or are in love, why?, what is what, what, what are the attractive things?, yes [speaker001:] You see exactly what you want to see when your in love and you ignore the bits you don't like [LAUGHTER] until there pushed home after long erm bit too much, to being together to often sometimes ruins the love, er loving means you except the person completely for what they are and you don't mind, they are what they are and your, you care for them like that. I actually start off quite good and then right or wrong I mean you find it, god what a pig [LAUGHTER] sitting there maybe picking their nose or nails or, I mean really its that that their all goody goody and then later on you think, this is not for me [LAUGHTER] so then you go and find somebody else and then maybe their just not to my expectations, maybe its because like I love myself [LAUGHTER] without being bull headed or any thing its just that if, I love myself obviously I've got to love somebody else, no I said that wrong. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] what you mean is you wish you could find one that didn't pick his nose and his nails [speaker001:] well exactly [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] Which ever way we look at it, its nature's way of keeping us going, its, its what's there to keep us surviving as a species, so its, its very clever, the, it worked, worked, nature worked it out very cleverly indeed that we should have this wonderful passion for someone and it should become love and then we should have children and then it becomes a, the whole cycle and that's, that's how it all goes. [speaker002:] so we, are we enhancing a pure biological function or is all this talk of love and [speaker001:] In a way I think so, I mean if were quite honest about it but we also see ourselves mirrored in whoever we love we see ourselves mirrored in their eyes which is a very comfortable sort of feeling. [speaker002:] what if they, if they love us back? [speaker001:] Oh yes well [LAUGHTER] hoping so [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I think its a bit of a simplification to say that its, its nature's way of keeping us going, because actually er ro, the idea that romantic love is the start of a life long relationship that produces off spring is really quite recent, erm for, for most of history er marriage's were on the basis of continuing er lines, continuing property and people had to erm some how or other cope with living with ano another person that might not necessarily have been the person that they would of chosen from love and, and this is still true in many societies and situations now. [speaker002:] so were onto marriage, you see I started trying to talking about love and here we are [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] talking about marriage. Let me, let's, let's, let's try a couple of those thoughts, put them to the vote. Do you think being in love is let's call it the mating instinct, is being in love merely the mating instinct operating, button one for yes and button two for no, let's er, let's seal that little lust abate there, well forty seven say yes basically I suppose basically being in love is lust, fifty three say no and what about that, that other point, I mean should you marry for love?, button one for yes and button two for no, should you marry for love?... well what very modern people you are, cos eighty two of you said yes, fifteen said no, who said no? [speaker001:] I think its possible to fall in love with the same person more than once, you fall in love with them and you get married for that as well as other reasons perhaps, and then you have children and you hardly see them really for the next ten years, at least this is what every one [LAUGHTER] sort of understands and then and then erm and then when you have more time again you can fall in love all over again with exactly the same person, I think this happens to lots of people, which also doesn't happen to a lot of people so [LAUGHTER] you haven't [] [speaker002:] Well it sounds blissful, but of course I mean a lot of terrible things happen in the name of love including crimes, crimes of passion as there romantically called in France, I mean people have killed for love, yes. [speaker001:] I found that love went out the window when it was sweaty socks and handkerchiefs and dirty nappies and all this in front of me and I thought well this is not romance this is bloody hard work. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And then, and then did it, did it go the way someone suggested that, that, the you fell in love again, I mean Katie said [speaker001:] Yes,one, once the children had gone it was different and I think its, I'm a widow now and I think love still remains somewhere. [speaker002:] up there [speaker001:] I think apart from loving them, you must like them [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and that's the basis, if you like them they'll become your best friend, there's times you don't love them, but you still like them [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] mm, mm, were, were talking about what happens when people who have fallen in love get together and decide to stay together for a bit and its been suggested that marriage can put some strains on er what started off as a very heady mutual experience, if your lucky, let me ask you this, do you think marriage destroys love?, button one for yes and button two for no, does marriage destroy love?, as you understand it... mm... a few are not sure but thirty people have said yes, who said yes... [speaker001:] Erm I, I said yes to er marr being married for, for love and I must admit I think, when I fell in love my head completely went some where else [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] and my heart went some where else and I think erm, the, the marriage erm, the love in my marriage was definitely killed by an act which my partner did and I would fall into the crimes of passion I think because I mean to, to me he committed the deadly sin of all and that was adultery and I could never forgive him for that and I think that picks up on a lot, many issues which have been raised tonight about you have to have trust in a partnership, you have to give and take and people change and some people can accept all that but I was not willing to do so. [speaker002:] So you didn't go on loving him? [speaker001:] No, I stopped instantly [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yeah, er yes [speaker001:] I think the problem is perhaps that when we love that we no, we never love the same degree, the two people don't li, love exactly the same way that in every relationship there is one who loves and one who is loved, one who kisses and one who is kissed and I think perhaps this balance if the relationship is weak, this kind of works it out that, that then they eventually split up, that one goes the other way and the can't stay together. I feel erm personally when I was younger that I was taught about love long before I feel in love sort of idea you know comics, the old movies, gave us expectations about what love was all about and I felt that had a, has a big influence in how yeah, when you grow up you feel, you meet this man and [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] it just all starts then were taught And I think about it as well [speaker002:] was it a good influence, I mean do you think the magazines and the books did [speaker001:] well I don't think so, I mean its getting beyond real perspective I think sometimes. [speaker002:] Right now we have, well we've already heard from Sandra who's says she's er, er, a romantic writer and there are some other writer's here Jean erm Margaret, Elizabeth are you, you are you pedalling illusions which are er completely deluding people like Sadie when she was young are you worried that your actually affecting young particularly female minds in a dangerous way? [speaker001:] Mm, no [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I asked for that didn't I? [speaker001:] erm [speaker002:] what do you think or are you satisfying a market? [speaker001:] yes and if you can make somebody think from your writing well that's good. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes dear [speaker001:] Its the, the market is there because people want it and this about er, I think its just too easy to say that people are mislead by them. People live in the real world, their not really going to be influenced, its about as sensible as saying er a Mills and Boon novel for example tells people about love are saying M I five use from Russia with Love as a training manual its the same kind of level of [LAUGHTER] things, people read them because they want to enjoy them, they know that real life's different, but its fun. [speaker002:] but your a writer, yes [speaker001:] I think this idea that these magazines are read only by the young is totally wrong, er, elderly women go to the libraries and the Mills and Boon's section is one of their favourite places, its got more stock there than any of the more serious fiction, so there must be something in it that is satisfying their need for romance perhaps. [speaker002:] mm, mm, yes [speaker001:] Yes because I think its a form of escaping Mm, mm as the lady says its not real life, erm [speaker002:] is that because real life is very disappointing? [speaker001:] yes [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] I think, I think when your reading it, I mean the, the female always gets her man and he's always perfect and er, I mean real life is just isn't like that, so its nice to see that it works out for someone. [speaker002:] nice idea. [speaker001:] Well actually I think your quite right, but I think the problem is that the older reader reads it for escapism and enjoyment, its, its fun, but I think the younger reader reads it and thinks that's what life is should be like and that's when the trouble starts. [speaker002:] Is this your problem?, is this why you ended up with a [speaker001:] I think I'm gonna have to read one of these books [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] so, so that that was, that wasn't the case in your, that that wasn't the case for you? [speaker001:] no, no [speaker002:] no [speaker001:] I just feel that even if you have read the book I mean my point would be, I would maybe be reading the book and have a look and say oh god [LAUGHTER] that would be me. I read one once and it was the best comedy I'd ever read in my life. [LAUGHTER] I think there's more to love than just simply romantic love erm, I'm a volunteer campaigner with Oxfam and to me love includes love of my fellow man and fellow women throughout the world and I find it very hard at the moment that millions of people are starving in this world and I feel that I've got to show my love by helping them [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I think that's important. Its my own personal opinion that the only true love and er I have to honestly say I've never heard love here defined as I would as the totally unconditional love that happens between a woman and a child, probably from the moment of birth that bonds them through life, that's the only love that I could ever admit to. [speaker002:] That's two different kinds of love though then, love, loving your neighbour I suppose is the widest sense and er and the love between a parent and child, are those more recognisable as, as true love if you like than the kind of romantic love, sexual love that we've been talking about, yes [speaker001:] Third kind of love, a bit more flippant, love of chocolate [LAUGHTER] which I was, which I was very worried about because I was told it was a substitute for sex [LAUGHTER] and then I read this amazing article which said no its completely the other way around, sex is when you, you get sex when you don't get enough chocolate. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm beginning to wonder if we need more words for love, I mean if, if love is the only word we have for chocolate er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] for your fellow man, for your child and for your, for your partner, is there a prosody of vocabulary here. [speaker001:] I, er I was gonna spring another type of love because we all spend a lot of money on it, the love of pets of animals [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and there's a lot of er of what people even leave their, their fortunes to look after some animal and they don't leave it to people like er the lady sitting here who are, folk, folk are starving, but then its because people are needed and people are needed by their children, but there also needed by their men folk and I think its when they turn to being a mother to their men that, you know, even the, the love that they have, er whether its been a sexual love at one time, er friendly love becomes a very caring love and er I think that's what we all remember erm those of us who have lost our husbands, that would like to have that, that part back again [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] of being needed, and being er allowed to care for someone [speaker002:] up there [speaker001:] I think the mother and child love isn't always pleasant and I think that's quite worrying to some mother's if they can't love their child in the way that people expect them to. Sheena, can I be the odd one out and say I've been in love with one man for forty five years, I haven't heard any body saying any thing very nice about that, I would like to say its wonderful. [speaker002:] oh I [speaker001:] Here, here [speaker002:] there, here, here they, they, a lot of them say, I don't know if you are the odd one out I mean there are [speaker001:] No I quite agree, I also agree with the lady who said that one of the important things is that you like the person, I well speaking from experience, I started out liking somebody [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] for whom that I had to decide whether I was going to marry him or give him up and decided I couldn't give him up so I married him and was extremely happy and was shattered when he died and I, I, a, it went from you know I, I never real, thought I would be as happy, could be as happy as I was [speaker002:] mm [speaker001:] er, but I quite agree one person er there's nothing, nothing greater. [speaker002:] Yeah I'm, I'm interested that that so many of you go from love to marriage as er swiftly as the horse and carriage similarly would suggest, I mean it, every one's experience of love is, is different, every body here is, we've been talking about love between er men and women, but there's also love between women and women which we haven't talked about at all. Do you think society er smiles on all forms of love or do you think some kinds of love and loving are, are actually seen as being lesser than others there, there seems to be less sympathetic for er I mean, yes [speaker001:] Well you've just got to look at section twenty eight, now section twenty five, how like we are being discriminated against how... even... like [LAUGHTER] sorry, erm your not like getting [speaker002:] start again, start again [speaker001:] getting attacked in pubs you know like that's happened to me, being verbally assaulted in the street has happened to me because I am with my lover who is a woman, who publicly I cannot show like that love, publicly you know cos oh I'm scared of violence you know, I like my face the way it is. [speaker002:] who has threatened you? [speaker001:] Men basically feel really erm threatened and intimidated like by women loving each other or by men loving each other, you know. [speaker002:] any other views on that, I mean is that a, yes [speaker001:] Its just the very fact that erm there's no equivalent to marriage for lesbian's and gay men, it means that society is looking down on it. [speaker002:] do you think there should be? [speaker001:] yes Not so much now I don't think. I, I, I feel that erm... a bit like yourself, what I object is the fact that its again we use the illusion of love and the actual wording of love [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] conjures up images and I just object to the fact that people impose on us, degrenality, I mean I, I think lesbian's and gay men have got a right to their life style as we have and I don't think we should be actually imposing and I think that's what a lot of society and what people come out with does er more or less we don't agree with that and its wrong and its objectional Its not so bad now either way, it was years ago always look down on people like that but not so much now oh I can assure you I work, I work in a women's unit and I can assure you its still frowned on by lots of people. I was gonna say its interesting to hear you saying that its men who attack you, but again with gay men its men who attack them. I, I've never really heard of women attacking lesbian women or women attacking gay men, its usually if there's a if there's a row something or other because the male of the species seems the one who's been, feels very, very threatened at the by there own people masculinity or, or the lost of a er female companion or something. [speaker002:] Jacky [speaker001:] Can I er, compound the issue more? [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] and, and say there is again disrespect or whatever for, I don't know what to call them transracial relationships [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] because that's another problem and I think maybe people haven't you know like addressed that. [speaker002:] can, can I just move on to one other issue that I'd like to look at er, because I think we've covered that reasonably for the moment which is, how, how will you find love?, ninety three people said their, their were in love, seven said they weren't, of those seven were, you've never been in love, was it, have, have you wanted to be?, would any of the seven who voted no at the beginning, yes [speaker001:] Not really [speaker002:] ah [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] you didn't fancy it? [speaker001:] no, I'm too in my, I like my independence too much, yes. [speaker002:] any one else... yes [speaker001:] I think I was er, I thought I was in love a few times, but erm in retrospect it was lust [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] so that's, that's, thought that half of you being in love was, was lust any way. Where, where do you find love?, if their are people out watching this programme tonight who would actually rather be in love [speaker001:] Love finds you [speaker002:] eh? [speaker001:] love finds you don't give up hope it finds you thank you [LAUGHTER] Also like, why, why, do people want to find love?, like is it maybe lulling them into a false sense of si security erm and I think that it is really important as like one woman said earlier on that its really important to love yourself first, cos how can you give any body any thing [speaker002:] mm, mm [speaker001:] I think love is like, when somebody loves you, loves you for just being yourself aha I, I think to me that would be the greatest respects you also yeah, no matter who you are. [speaker002:] Sadie [speaker001:] And when you do find its, its beautiful [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] up there [speaker001:] sharing your life with someone, you want to be with that person and you know that if any thing happens you've got that person to rely on and I think if your alone you don't have that. [speaker002:] If you can find that person, yes. [speaker001:] Yeah well I did because my husband before were married was my bus driver on the S M T buses [LAUGHTER] he certainly found me [LAUGHTER] and from there we just went from strength to strength and erm were still have together. [speaker002:] lo, yes [speaker001:] If your looking for love and your absolutely desperate there's always a thing called date line which I believe is very successful and I know at least two people who've got very happy marriages from that, so [speaker002:] really? [speaker001:] oh yes [speaker002:] advertising? [speaker001:] yes, advertising it seems incred incredible to me, but erm if any, if any thing [speaker002:] I haven't tried that but thank you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] well no, er lets put, lets, lets, lets put that to the vote, erm have you ever advertised for love?, either through a dating agency or of course many many newspapers carry erm, what, what they called, lonely hearts columns, now its alright you can vote, I'm not going to pick on you particularly [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] because er so few, so few of you have admitted to doing it, well five people here have, dare I ask if any one would like to say whether or not it was successful, yes. [speaker001:] Well yes and no, erm, every body that seemed to get involved there seemed to be some strange thing missing [LAUGHTER] erm, like finance for instance [speaker002:] oh [speaker001:] you know, they were willing to share what I had but could give nothing financially in return. I don't know, I'm very sceptical. [speaker002:] you've heard a lot of wisdom on this programme tonight [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes [speaker001:] I didn't advertise for a partner but I went to the single's and divorcee club and met my second husband and its magic the second time around. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] yes, any other yes [speaker001:] Hi, I haven't advertised myself but I'm aware of friends who have and the biggest problem seems to be that when they respond to the ads and then they meet the gentleman in question who's described themselves as six feet two who's blonde and extremely handsome [LAUGHTER] turns out to be five foot two, dark hair and really not all that good looking after all, and so the problem with the advertising is that you know how one person sees themselves and advertises themselves not always the way they actually appear so its er pitfall [speaker002:] ah so the message there is erm there's short dark men out there if that's your fancy [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Is there advertising for a partner I mean is it, can't, does it come under trade description act? [LAUGHTER] can they be, can they be sued afterwards [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] okay well I think we'll er, we'll probably have to stop this as we've run out of time, let me, let me ask the people here one final question, are you in love right now?, button one for yes and button two for no... my goodness, sixty two people are rushing home, the other thirty eight [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] are staying for a coffee good night. [music]

[speaker001:] You need help, but who cares? And who gives a damn about the people who do care? Let's find out. [introduction music] [speaker002:] Maybe we should start by defining what a carer is. A carer, I suggest, is someone with responsibility for a child, or an old person, or someone with a handicap, or a chronic illness. There are professional carers as well of course, who are paid to care for other people, but this discussion is probably going to concentrate on the problems of... home carers. Now why did I say problems? Isn't caring a rewarding occupation? Well perhaps. And a hundred women will share their views and experiences in a moment. But let me offer you one figure to consider, one third of the population in Scotland is either over sixty five, or under eleven, or is variously disabled... how much care will they need? How much care will they get? And who's going to give it? It's a challenge that's been talked about all over world, but who's going to respond and how? Let's talk! Let's start with a vote. Are you, or have you been a carer? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, there's a hundred here... sixty five... have been or are... thirty five, a third, not, or possibly I should say, not yet. Now, of those sixty five who would like to say something about their experience, whether it's, it's present or past? What are you talking about? Yes? [speaker003:] Ten years ago I had four dependent relatives, I took both my parents and parents-in-law into the one house... the fathers are now both dead, and I still have both the mothers. [speaker002:] Are you working as well? [speaker003:] Er, I run a voluntary help line for other carers, and I've got sixteen hundred and fifty carers on file right across Scotland. [speaker002:] Did you set up this help line yourself? [speaker003:] I did, yes. [speaker002:] When? [speaker003:] Erm, about five years ago, nineteen eighty six... because, there was just nothing! I mean, I knew from my own experience that carers were not getting the help, they were not getting the back-up, so any sort of really good telephone numbers I had laid my hands on got sort of written away in a wee book, and I was lucky enough to come across an association that actually backed up carers and actually were willing to sort of, put their life on the line and say to me, yes, you have got rights and you need support and we are here to give you that support. [speaker002:] Do you think things are better now than they were five years ago when you started your help line? [speaker003:] Well, for me yes, because erm there are now things like the Independent Living Fund, things like that, if people fit into the right boxes and contact the right people, then they can get some sort of help... but I mean, it's still an absolute maze out there for anybody who doesn't have that sort of back up. [speaker002:] Okay, there's one experience, we'll come back. Who else? Where, who are the other sixty five? What's, what's your experience? Yep? [speaker004:] I was involved in setting up a charity called SNIP which is a Special Needs Information Point for parents and carers of children with special needs to get more information out to them about benefits or... help in any way. [speaker002:] Would er th er, over here it was described as a, er er it's still a maze out there if you don't know where you're going, would you agree? [speaker004:] I would agree er, that it's strange er once you start something, I mean people come up and say well we've got a whole information bank here and... other people have a whole information bank there and yet the ability of people who are caring, for adults or children, to get out, run round forty agencies and come home loaded with leaflets, pushing three children and a parent, you know is is quite difficult! And we found that er situating [speaker003:] This is why phone works. [speaker004:] in the sick childrens which we do [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] is ideal, it's easy, and it has to be much more available to people. [speaker002:] So is the support there? Is it the communication system that isn't quite working... but the support is adequate if you can simply find it? Yes? [speaker005:] I've been a carer for quite a few years now, until recently, when my grandmother died. Now, she had senile dementia, now the hospital helped a lot in the caring, but I didn't have time, or the energy, ha, frankly [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] to go running around looking for help. [speaker006:] I have looked after my husband for seven years, he had a brain tumour operation nearly eight years ago, and he's in a wheelchair... he can't walk, but his, after the first two years of caring for him, he's... become bright enough to do the Daily Telegraph crossword, and so he's er erm brain's alright. Well, I did it alone, just with the help of Crossroads, and the district nurse in, in the mornings, five days a week... and... really that is all the help I had, except that I get domestic staff myself, and any help that I need, I have to pay for. The doctor, my own doctor has been very good... and very kind and helpful, but... er, I know of no other support group other than Crossroads, who help people like me. And it is a day and night job. And my husband, although I'm only very small and under five foot, my husband is thirteen stone and six foot two inches, so moving him about has been a great problem. [speaker007:] Well I'm a carer by choice. A friend came eight years ago for his tea, he's still here! He's multiple in disability, but we get help in Kilmarnock from Salvation Army, who take him during the day, FAB club where I go with him at night, and the hospital, Curtlingside now, who take him for respite... social and everything. [speaker002:] Now plenty of people are carers by choice, and people want to look after the people who need care in their family, but th i, it's a problem isn't it? I mean, what are,wha what are the pro, inevitable problems that go with being a carer by choice? First of all, you can't work full time, even if you want [speaker007:] I do. [speaker002:] to. And what? [speaker007:] I do work full time, I'm a community worker. But I, I have a need, I had a need, cos, and he fills that need... cos I didn't have a parents, and fills my need. He gives back a lot more... than we give him. [speaker002:] Yes? Down here. [speaker009:] I think when you're a carer, caring for a disabled person, in my own case it's... child, you're not just erm... it's not just a disabled child, you've got a disabled family, because the whole family's disabled... because of what holds you back with this one child. [speaker010:] I'm a carer through choice, er, I took both my parents to... live with me... erm, when they no longer could cope on their own... and it totally changes your life! [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker010:] I took my parents when I, my son was two and a half, and I can honestly say that my son, I wasn't able to devote as much time as I would have wanted to give. You've not only... you're, you're not only yourself but you've got ki, your child to look, look after, you've also got who you're caring for, you've got their emotional needs as well, and you're emotional needs tend to... take a back seat, for want of a better... way of putting it. It totally changes. [speaker002:] So did anybody else have that experience of of of caring for children and parents, or or parents-in-law at the same time? Yes? [speaker001:] Er, I I had to care for my elderly parents when my son was two and a half and I had a six month old baby... and er, I would agree with the previous speaker, it certainly does change your life. My memory of those days was being tired all the time, waking up tired, going through the day [LAUGHTER] tired [], going to bed tired. I would say the thing that kept me sane during that period was the fact that I had a part time job, and erm... we were able to pay for some home help. [speaker002:] Now this situation is multiplied thousands of times all over Scotland! Plenty of people are in this situation. Of course, we're all women here tonight,th, there are men carers as well, but would it be fair to say that the bulk of care responsibility falls on women... or or is that... is that unfair? Yes? Yes, I would think that would be true, because I think the woman is more intelligent and more capable of coping [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] with er... you know, the problem. And I think what's getting to me tonight, they're all saying it's a problem, and it's tired, I mean, so is life! Mm. It's part of life! You know, I catered for my father who was disabled... and I mean it was nay till I was... much older, oh he is disabled! He was my father. He was... you know, nothing wrong with him, till somebody said... oh it's got a disability! Oh, and you start thinking... what is disability? You've still got to get on with life! And I had five sons, a disabled father, according to the media, and er, I got on with it. [speaker003:] It is part of life but er wha... sa so is death and so is schooling, and so is education, and and all these issues are social, social issues, they are only problems when there aren't the resources to help support people who need support. Now the community care legislation says that... carers now have a right... to ask for their needs to be assessed, I think that's very important! Many carers, I have heard say, time and time again, that they feel guilty even asking... they didn't even know they had a right to ask, well this legislation now allows people to ask, doesn't mean to say their needs are gonna be met, but at least it gives them a right to ask. It says that they have a right to have their own needs assessed, the wishes of the family and other carers... erm, have to be taken into account... carers have to be involved in drawing up local plans [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] for services, information has to be made available so that you know what sort of services are, are available, erm... on which to base a judgement about what so, what sort of erm, services you would like. [speaker002:] Do you think it's working? The legislation, I mean do you think th th th this sounds like an improvement? Er, do you, do you think it is? [speaker003:] Well it sounds like an improvement, but without the financial commitment and the political will then I'm afraid that the erm, the ideaology and the principles will all for nought. At the moment, the evidence is that the sort of money that's being put into developing new services is very tiny, five million pounds towards the specific mental illness grant, which actually isn't new money but... top slice from local authority money and then, erm directed [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] particularly for mental illness and dementia services. Wo wo, it's less than the price of a cup of tea. [speaker004:] Can I just say that my father who is eighty four, is caring for my mother... er for the past eleven years, and we keep sort of saying well is it not time... that she should maybe go into hospital? That's, we as the family. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] But dad's attitude is... your mother's looked after me all these years, it's my turn! Which I think's lovely! [speaker002:] Lilian? [speaker005:] Well I work for the organization Crossroads, and I think what I find in... in my contacts with carers... is that they need help in the way, and when they need it... however, our organization is restricted by lack of funding [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] because obviously, we can only help them when we have space. [speaker002:] Now, Crossroads helps carers, it gives, it gives [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker002:] respite, or relief to carers, is that right? [speaker005:] Crossroads exists to relieve carers on a very short term basis. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker005:] It can be weekly, fortnightly, monthly, or just occasionally on request... but... quite often we are finding that a person who's assessed as needing help weekly, but... all that we have got is fortnightly, and all of the time there are clients waiting for us to up the amount of help that we're giving to them... and, very much, it needs to be when it benefits them, and when it fits in with their lives. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] The lady, who founded the carers' help line, er, in the literature that you provided for the programme... was suggesting that the government should recognise that there are six million unpaid carers. I believe that the government do recognise that there are six million unpaid carers, er I believe that the government depend very heavily upon these six million people, and I do not believe that the government intend to reward them. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker006:] Erm,th, I think it's the government's ideal to promote the role of the extended family... which, to me, is anathema in the nineteen nineties. If we look at the look at the role that women play in our society today... they have a very heavy burden already placed [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] upon them. They're very often, er a worker... they're a wife, and they're a mother... and all that that contains... er, the basics, the shopping, the cleaning, the cooking... the decorating, they cut the lawn, they wash the cars, they pay the household accounts. If we go back socially to the days of the extended family, women did not have to play that role in those days, a women, a woman's place was very much in the home, looking after the home and not much else. And, quite frankly, I think that... that women these days have very little time in which to indulge themselves in their own hobbies and interests, and I think women should stand up and say to the government, no you will not inflict this responsibility upon us! [speaker002:] There. [speaker007:] Certainly, I'd I'd very much like to agree with what that lady said. I... I work for NUPE, and three [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] out of four of our members er, are women, and many of them are... both the paid carers, the home helps, the care assistants and so on, but also then go home to look after the young or the... er... elderly relatives or or disabled, and so on and... and as well as seeing, wanting to see far more... support in the community [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] for people... who are caring for their, their family... we've, we've also said, that employers should recognise that people should be able to get, erm... some kind of leave occasionally from their work... er, perhaps ten days a year when they find the person they're looking after is is sick. All too often women say to me, basically they've had to fake a sick line themselves because their mother or their father [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] was ill, but there was no official way... they could contact their employer and say, I need the day off because... I need to sort something [speaker002:] There. [speaker007:] out. [speaker008:] We've not only got to say to the government, that you're not coping... you've got to say, if you're a mother, a worker and a wife, you've got to say to your husband, look, I'm not coping. You can't e expect a body... to cope with everything in your life. You say to your husband, help me! And they should relieve you of it. [speaker002:] I do, well do husbands help? I mean, I was interested, a couple of the people who who were speaking earlier, Margaret, and in fact,th the two Margarets who... both said I look after, neither of you said we look after. Now, I don't know whether that's because i in your house there isn't a husband or a partner, or whether it didn't occur to you to say we, whether you always think of it as I... or whether he's out winning bread or... you know,wha whatever it is, but [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] are are, do men, do men take the loa,a apart from this fabulous [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] er... father of yours who's, who's, who's looking after... er [speaker001:] Erm [speaker002:] you mother. [speaker001:] I couldn't have done it without... the help my husband gave [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] me. I mean, my husband has even at one point had to come into the bathroom, when I got my mother stuck in the bath... er, couldn't get her out, it was, it was him or the fire brigade,tha that was the choice, basically! [LAUGHTER] Erm, I'm not saying he was truly happy about having... I think he was quite embarrassed for my mother. But, no, my husband... has helped an awful lot, I couldn't have done it without him. [speaker002:] Then what's your... up there? Yes? [speaker009:] I nursed my mother who was blind and bed ridden for four years before her death. Now, my husband was a wonderful support to me, during that time! And I was sort of juggling, I didn't realize how much I was doing until... one day shortly after mother's death, a lady stopped me and she said has something happened to your mother? And I said, yes, she died. She said, I thought so, it's the first time I've seen you walking instead of running! [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] Mm! [speaker009:] And that, I... I was, my hus, during the time mother was ill, my husband took ill, now this is where authorities don't give you any back up, instead of sending him to hospital which was fifteen minutes by bus, I could have visited him every day... they sent him to the other side of the county... which only allowed a visit once a week, and meant I had to leave at twelve o'clock and get home at six! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] Now... no nothing was done! The worse word you can say to authority is, I can cope, because they leave you to cope! [speaker002:] Down here. [speaker010:] My husband he... was very good, but he didn't take any... care with my grandmother, but he was extremely good about the house. He looked after Michael, my young son, he did housework, he even makes now, a good pot of soup, [LAUGHTER] he done [], better than I do! But, he took over most of the housework, whereas I was looking after my grandmother. I mean, without him in the back I wouldn't have been able to do it, but I always tell everybody I was the carer. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? Up there. [speaker001:] We're still talking about men helping us, instead of expecting them to do it automatically. [speaker002:] Are we? [speaker001:] I think we are at the moment, yes. [speaker002:] Is that, is that your experience? [speaker001:] Yes, I mean I have a very helpful husband, but he's helping, he sees him himself as helping me rather than doing his share of it... without... having to ask... what help I need. [speaker002:] Now, that's an interesting distinction! Do you think that's right? [speaker001:] Mhm. Aha. Mhm. Yeah. [speaker002:] At the same time, men usually have got full time jobs, as well! Well I meant I mean, if they're working full time and they are helping with the children in the house, I mean, they can't do much more! [speaker001:] Well I'm working full time too [speaker003:] I think they can! [speaker001:] so [speaker002:] I work as well! Mhm. [speaker004:] I think erm, I don't men take a lot of responsibility. I mean, I don't want to er, betray my partner here but erm, I mean he does his share but he doesn't do his full share. Erm... I think that erm... men don't like to take on women's work because... it's erm [speaker001:] Ooh! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] the hours are too long, the hours are too long and the wages are really bad,th really bad [speaker002:] So that's, that's er, the women's work is is work that is, the hours are too long, and the wages are really bad? [speaker004:] Yes! [speaker002:] That's your definition? [speaker004:] Well I mean who'd want to take that on, you know! I mean [speaker005:] it's unpaid. [speaker004:] Well okay it's [speaker005:] and invisible. [speaker004:] it's badly paid, yeah alright, it's invisible [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker004:] for. [speaker001:] They don't take it on, take it on full time. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker004:] Mm. [speaker006:] It actually takes the two of you to pull. I've been listening, Sheena, to them talking about... carers, now, since time began women have always been carers. I mean, when you get up and, I believe that it's, a children's duty to look after their parents. I looked after my mother... I was the youngest of our family, and I didn't consider that... I was doing something unusual, it was my duty. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] And that is why,th with the government talking about, and they're talking about authority... why should they be looking for money from anywhere, when after all, the youth of today are the pensioners to, of tomorrow, and it's only our duty to look after them. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I would have to say that social conditions have changed a great deal today, going back to what the first [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] on my left said earlier, and... wo wo women have a tendency to say yes to everything that they can do, just because they can do it, and they know they can but they tend to heap up far too many obligations, and that causes... many carers [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker007:] er, to succumb to... health problems, exhaustion, er emotional problems and so on. [speaker002:] Hazel? [speaker008:] My er, circumstances are entirely different, I am the person who's being cared for... and my husband died in nineteen eighty seven, and my son in nineteen eighty eight and I was left with my young son, and he looked after me on his own, and then my daughter who li, I was living in Ireland, my daughter lived in England, and she decided it wasn't good enough that it should all be left to him, so... we had a long talk and we discussed it at length for two weeks at Christmas, and... then they all moved Sou, over here, we got a house in Scotland, and I'm looked after by my young son and my daughter, and since then a year ago my daughter got married, her husband moved in and he looks after me as well, so I'm looked after by three young adults. [speaker002:] I wonder how many of you are now, or expect to need care? Button one for yes, and button two for no? It may take a bit of imagination for, for some of the, some of you but... what do you think? Do you think you're going to need care? And it's something you might think about as well, sitting at home, do you think you're going to need care in due course, and if so, where's it going to come from? And er, where's the money gonna come from? And who's going to look after your carers? Fifty four of the people here think they're going to need care, forty six are going to... stride it out independently to the end. Erm... very briefly, the fifty four of you, who's gonna care for you... do you think? [speaker009:] I've got a young son [speaker002:] Yep? [speaker009:] he's erm... twenty three at the moment, I've got arthritis, sometimes I'm in a wheelchair, sometimes I'm alright, and he says... don't worry mum I'm there to push you around... and I'm quite heavy! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] I I on picking up on one thing that was said [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] earlier that, the hardship, I mean i it's okay for some people who have the money and will not feel [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] the hardship. I know, er... a gentlemen, like yourself, who's looked after by his young son, by a younger son anyway, and he... he's given up his work... to look after his father. [speaker002:] Well, in fact, eighty percent of full time carers give up work... to [speaker010:] But [speaker002:] look after whoever it is they're looking after. [speaker010:] we we, we were hearing from Jenny about the government, but... we we must look into other parties... I mean there's a general election going to be coming off soon, we, we as carers should be looking into who... is going to benefit us. [speaker002:] But it's not just we as carers, or your as carers [speaker010:] No! [speaker002:] it's anybody... who cares sufficiently about [speaker010:] It's anybody who needs help. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] I'm an ex-carer, and I looked after my aunt for three and a half years, and could I say that it's not all negative... although it times you could scream! Really! I mean, at times yo, I can, looking back now I can say that I learnt a lot. Well I sa, I mean I took her on to look after her and I didn't think there would any problem [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] about it, but after a while... ah, I... you know, things got more difficult as she deteriorated, but th... I did learn a lot. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] And now, I I almost felt empty when she died, and I didn't have anybody to care for that really needed me all the time... so I I, wanted to help out at a local dementia centre to try and make up for it... and to pass on [speaker002:] I think that's [speaker001:] what I've learnt. [speaker002:] I think that's a very good er... point [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] and I, I mean I, I think we've heard earlier a lot o, people who, people who've who have become carers because they need that, they need to care for somebody, and they want that dimension in their life. What's also come out very strongly... er, in this programme is is... that it's a struggle for a lot of people, both financially, and in terms of juggling time and the multiple demands that particularly women have, in trying to care for young people and old people to the point where women may spend their entire lives between, between twenty and sixty looking after somebody or other. And maybe that is... part of... real life, maybe that is a fact of life... that women have to take on board, but perhaps men have to take it on board a bit more as well. Can we have a couple of final comments, cos we're gonna have to draw to close. We've heard a tonight about carers... erm, not knowing about Mm. benefits, not knowing where to find out about benefits, and I think it's right to say that benefits agency staff are there to give information and there is a And that's what you are? Yeah. There is a freeline service which... carers, I think a lady said earlier, over the phone is the best way, there is a freeline service and I think it would be a good idea for carers to take advantage of that, if we can help, we will. I, it's unfair ask you this, but do you think it's sufficient... the care that's avail, the the help that's available? Erm... that is difficult for me to answer but obviously [LAUGHTER] Right! Fine []! I'm going to implement [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []! government policy, [LAUGHTER] not to comment on it []! Right. Yes? [speaker004:] I'd like to end on a, on a slightly different note. I would like to look at the people who are being cared for, the people that we're talking about, are the elderly, quite often these people have lived through two world wars and given up their young married life, they have brought up their children through the bleak days of the general strike, is it right that these people have to suffer the indignity of charity hand-outs? The eve of their life should be free from worry, and stress, and anxiety, and wondering about... who will bury them, and who will pay for it. I I think it's quite wrong... er, the way the elderly are treated, that they [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker004:] have to rely on charity hand-outs. [speaker002:] As ever, we finish with er... a lot of things touched on, lots more to talk about. I hope you've heard something that'll make you think, and think positively and perhaps act positively. Goodnight. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Not long ago some highly placed career men resigned their jobs because, they said, they wanted to spend more time with their families. But did you believe them? [introduction music] [speaker002:] We've all heard of women giving up work for their children, but men? After all, the government itself has felt it necessary to set up an agency simply to find fathers who want to spend no time at all with their families. But perhaps that's the minority. Perhaps, in these days of the new man we are indeed witnessing a household revolution in the vital area of parenting. There again, perhaps the virgin births and artificial insemination are the start of something very different. Let's find out what one hundred Scottish women think of parents today. Did there's do a good job? Are they doing any better? What exactly is a good parent? And how many does a child really need? Let's start with a question, since you are all children of parents, do you think your parents did a good job? Button one for yes, button two for no. Did your parents do a good job? And, in this particular hundred, eighty five say yes... fifteen say no. Who said no? Would you like to say why? Mhm. [speaker003:] Well I think my mother did a good job but my father was an alcoholic and that's, that made a difference, not just to him but... to the entire family and I think probably to my own children. And even though he's dead I think it still has a... a relevance to how I treat my children. [speaker002:] So that you would agree, you learnt parenting... from your father? [speaker003:] No I didn't, luckily, erm my mother's family, probably the men in that family I had the influence o of of those men and I think that helped a lot. But if they hadn't been there, if they had been different kinds of men... erm, I don't think I would have been able to to pick someone... to be my husband or my partner who could be a decent father to my kids. [speaker002:] Who else said no? Mhm. [speaker004:] Well I think my parents did the best they could but the pressures that were on them... they, they didn't do a very good job! [speaker002:] What kind of pressures? [speaker004:] I'm not... well social pressures, emotional pressures. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] I'm going into detail! [LAUGHTER] Ha []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Who else? Anyone else? Yeah? [speaker005:] Erm ma... I think my father, who's also dead, erm... took absolutely no interest in us as children whatsoever! And he didn't take much interest in my mother either and that put enough emotional pressure on her to... maybe no, not be such a good mother as she might otherwise have been. Let me ask you another question. Eighty five of you said yes your parents did a good a job, now, I don't know who your parents were or what you mean by your parents or indeed how many you have, so... let's ask, simply an informational question, were you brought up by a mother and a father? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Because of course, now, there are many more single parent families than there were then? And in this hundred, and I think most people here are at least over sixteen, ninety one... of the women here were brought up by a mother and a father... and only er, nine by one parent. Things have changed have they not? [speaker006:] I think the best possible way to bring up children is where there's a father and mother provided the marriage is stable... and balanced, cos the children have a role model from the father and the mother. They can see parents falling out and learning to compromise and... become friends again... and that helps them, in turn, to create a good marriage. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I don't necessarily has to be a mother and father I think, so long as they are good role models... that they have. I think that's the most important thing. [speaker008:] I think it's important that children have both their parents, but I think we also need to remember they don't necessarily need to live... together in that family. I work in erm... family conciliation and lots of parents actually manage to stay parents and to be good parents to their children, but they don't actually live together as parents. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes. [speaker009:] I think... in any marriage or in any family the father and the mother both play different parts, and in my own life I can remember things my mother did and things my father did and together it made for a happy home. [speaker010:] Yeah, it's interesting that we talk about single parent families but the two or three people at the beginning talked about... erm, the one parent, the father... was in actual fact, I know he was actually resident there was probably his his erm interest was non-existent. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] So we we we tend to have a different sort of, probably if you'd, if you ask that question differently you would get a different percentage. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's not always possible to have a mother and a father. Er, mine died when I was nine and my mother has been my mother and a father to both myself my brother and sister and I feel she's done just as good a job as I could of... as my father could have done. [speaker002:] Mhm. Speaking as a single parent who was left with children of twelve and eight, it is very hard and I often think it would be a good thing if social workers were better able to explain to young girls who are left with babies, just what it's going to be like. I was lucky cos my children were a little older, but to be left on your own with babies is not easy. Mhm. [speaker003:] Er, my my natural mother er, actually had me adopted when I was a baby and erm... so I was actually adopted by a minister and his wife and I think, erm, I would have been brought up completely differently if... she, she'd just bought me up on her own, you know, so I think... erm... oh that's it really. [speaker002:] Mm! [speaker004:] My mum was on her own! I had a mum as a single parent and two grandparents and they did an excellent job of bringing me up! I couldn't have asked for a better family! [speaker002:] The majority of absent parents... er... presently are fathers, so I'm going to ask you... given the current er, emphasis on... er in, well in in in the media perhaps, rather tha, more than in real life on... women going it alone, whether by necessity or indeed by choice. Erm, why do you think... er, fathers are actually necessary? Let's put it as simply as that. Are fathers, obviously they're necessary at the... well of course, [LAUGHTER] they're not necessary at the point of conception [] any more but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] generally would you think fathers are necessary? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, vote now. Well now, are you surprised to learn that sixty of yes, but forty of you said no! Who said no? Mhm. [speaker005:] Erm, I don't think either a father or a mother intrinsically has to be necessary, I think what's important is that children should have access to a variety of loving adults, one or two, or maybe three of those who they should have a special relationship with, doesn't matter whether they're male or female, so long as the, the children are loved and they feel secure and happy, it doesn't matter about, you know, this is mother, this is father. It's also very important from the adults' point of view that erm... it doesn't matter if you are... a so called single parent, which, I by the way, am, or whether you are within erm... a couple but actually in in fact you're, you're a single parent because you're getting no support. The point is, that you need yourself to be surrounded by other supportive adults for your own... erm sanity and well being and that's why I think erm... you need an, a whole extended situation and you need to... to change the way people feel about, about children so that, children have more access to adults in general, and adults have more access to children in general. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] I, I am a single parent and I was over forty when I had my one and only son... now the father walked out but I never deprived my son of knowing who is father was... or what he was. And I find that my father, who was old too, at the time substituted for the father and I have an excellent relationship with my son! And he knows exactly what his father, and he wants to see him he can go. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I've been family member for twelve years and must have seen a thousand children, and of those, barely fifty had both their natural mother and father! Now, I'm not a sociologist but I would say i... it meant that... children without both were more prone to trouble, or more prone to erm... lack of parental control or... lack of love, care... there has, I mean somebody can draw a a conclusion from that, but barely fifty! [speaker002:] Pat? [speaker008:] I have to say, in comment to that, I don't the know the the balance of statistics but I've been a lone parent for, for ten years now, although I've I've pressed button, it was because for ten years of being able to have a stable relationship with my children, I've got two very stable teenagers... and during that, the course of that ten years I've been disabled person as well, so... yes there may be the case that there's... there's trouble with... the children of lone parent families, but I think there's far too much emphasis on that nowadays! [speaker009:] Well I am a sociologist and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that... children from lone parent families are more prone to... delinquency or trouble. I think if you compared people who are struggling with very little resources with very low incomes, and with... er living in areas of kind of multiple deprivation, erm, then you would, you would find that maybe people in those circumstances have higher rates of of trouble and sometimes it's er... it's also those areas that are more heavily policed that children are more likely to be picked up in, and picked on. Erm, so there's all kinds of reasons why children from... such situations would be more likely to be in trouble but I don't think there's... evidence to say that it's because of from lone parents. [speaker002:] Now, we've had evidence and descriptions of actually quite a wide variety and different kinds of family groups [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] er, single parents, adoptive parents, erm ma ma,th the traditional idea, two parents. Do you think at the moment society in Britain, in Scotland takes proper account of that variety of options, or do you think undue stress is put on one er... one or other? I mean, I suppose actually the conventional two parent family with er... whatever th the current er er average proportion of children is. Yes? [speaker010:] Erm, I'm from Scottish Council for Single Parents, and no I don't think it does! I mean I think the... er se, emphasis on society is still o, very much on the nuclear family and there is a... a great lack of recognition of the extent to which families have changed and I think there's still er, hoping that erm... mothers and children are going to continue to be supported by the parent and that's evidenced with the governments er, child support bill, that it's erm... introducing at the moment. I think that is a big difficulty that, the diversity of family types simply hasn't been recognised and, anything that's seen as a benefit for one parent families is a political no no! I mean, if you look in the budget this year, one parent benefit was frozen, the additional personal allowance that's paid for one parents for taxation was also frozen, and the government does not like paying any benefits to one parent families because horror of horrors! I mean, people might desert their partner for five pound sixty a week! I mean. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well the suggestion is that people who aren't er... maintaining a traditional family unit are actually being, like being penalised by public policy, is is is that a general opinion? [speaker001:] I wouldn't say that was the case in Strathclyde. Our admissions policy and er, er pre- establishments throughout the education department certainly takes account of... erm single parents' situations, particularly the stress that's involved in bringing up parents in that respect... because it's it's the stress that's involved rather than [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] the single parenthood itself, I would say, that makes the difference. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes? I think that it's not just the policy, I think it's the whole of society's attitudes, because children learn what they are by how people see them, and if they're in a society that says... you're in an unusual situation, if you're not with two parents then somehow your situation isn't right and we condemn it! Then they condemn themselves as well and until society can say... that's perfectly alright, that's a good situation to be in, whoever it is you're living with, and that you as a child are okay and are valued... then the children themselves will be okay... and I think the Sco, we lose some of the... erm secondary deprivation and emotional deprivation that children in single parent families Now how get into. how do you change attitudes? Assuming you should change attitudes, I mean I mean would you agree with Angela that we should change attitudes? Because wha we're talking about a very age old attitude which is that a mother and a father and their children ar, is the correct unit, should stay together, at least until the children are grown up and probably well beyond? Alright. I mean, is that an attitude that that that should be changed? And if so, how do you do it? Yes? [speaker003:] Er, I think that... actually, the... the parents, the mother and father they just don't work hard enough at making a marriage work! They decide that one's... hurting the other and the other hurts back... so instead of maybe looking at one another, they just don't work hard! So if they can find a way at working with one another and realizing that this is their life! And it's the children's lives that they've got at hand. [speaker002:] I don't think everybody agrees with that [speaker003:] And maybe [speaker002:] from the, from the hisses that I heard! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I erm... unfortunately, er, agree with the previous speaker that a very strong calvinistic streak runs through me and I believe in the... two parent family... and also in the efforts that you should make to keep the family ge together, but I think too, there's... sp, er, perceptions of individuals and particularly, younger generations now in society, are so much different from my own perceptions when I initially became married and started my own family but... what society has to look at the perceptions and expectations of the individuals in society. [speaker005:] Erm... [sigh]... well I tried for years to live with my second husband and it just was impossible! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] Not for just my own children but for my own health. I'm now in a stable relationship with my fiancé and it's fantastic! What a difference! But there's still this stigma because we're not married... and... I don't wha, I don't really know how to explain it but... I feel that at times my daughter is being victimized to a certain degree because we're not married. And it's just a second [speaker002:] Is that? Does that suggest [speaker005:] just doesn't seem right! We're happy [speaker002:] That's your first [speaker005:] and that's all that should matter. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Could policy help to change to attitude and indeed, should it? Le let me ask you about erm... this,th the new child support, Sue mentioned the child support agency which er, is going to be established with roughly, er, the task of chasing errant fathers who are not providing for their families, is is is that correct? Is that a good idea? I mean, in fact, may I, I think I'll, just, let me put that to the vote. Should fathers be forced to pay child support? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And the view of this particular hundred is... sixty, forty... yes, say sixty... no, say forty. Who said no? And is it the same forty who said fathers aren't necessary, out of interest? Yes? [speaker006:] Well I bought up three children [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] on my own, brought them from Canada and I brought them up without any help from my ex-husband... and... I wouldn't of wanted it any other way. [speaker002:] Why? [speaker006:] Well I feel that, that way he didn't have to... have access to the kids, and the kids were happier without him. [speaker002:] Who else said no? Yes? [speaker007:] Yeah, I think some people don't want er, the fathers having any sort of rights over them, they don't want the access... er, to the children, so in a way, they prefer to go it alone. Erm [speaker002:] So do you think that's retrogressive legislation rather than helpful legislation? That it's actually trying to enforce a pattern of family life that perhaps a lot of people don't want? [speaker007:] Erm... well... it's sort of hel, it's... it's really up to the mother really, you know... or the single parent. I think it's... it's kind of erm [speaker002:] Does anyone approve of the proposed... er,a agency? [speaker008:] No! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker008:] I don't see why I should support single parents! Erm, if a couple decide to have children, they have children for life, it's until they... erm, get married... and I really think we're given too much of this... me, me and my fulfilment of what you can be, and you forget that there's two people there, or three people who are dependent on you. Not dependent on the state, not dependent on your neighbours, dependent on you! [speaker002:] Well these days a lot of women decide to have children... er,o outside... er erm, certainly outside marriage and indeed outside a couple, and that is possible, do you not approve of that? [speaker008:] Not if I'm paying for it! If they, if they, if they have enough money to do it themselves, good o, good on them! [speaker002:] Would anyone stick for the idea of women having the er... the being,we,th th the idea of women having the choice to have a child on their own being a good thing? Yes? [speaker010:] Yes, I mean, you can't... erm, legislate within a relationship if the relationship is created that works well, erm, between a, an adult and a child, that's fantastic! And if, somebody knows that they really, really want a child and they want it themselves and they don't necessarily want a third person, then that it absolutely fantastic! Let them go ahead with it. As for, chasing up errant fathers, that's a complete and utter nonsense! I mean, erm... you yo, the amount of oppression and completely ridiculous situations that that is going to cause, it is not going to solve any problems at all! All it is, is the government and state washing it's hands of it's responsibility of, and of society as a whole is responsibility, is responsible for the children of society. [speaker002:] Elizabeth. [speaker001:] But surely, by the... the women who can't afford to look after their own children, they should be allowed, at least, to have access to their husband so that they can ask for money. I feel very strongly that there are a lot of people who don't have the money and have no way of getting in touch with their husband, no way of forcing them to pay up. [speaker002:] Ann? [speaker001:] Yes. Erm well, ha! I mean, I think... really that erm... children benefit from stable relationships within the family unit. The, the normal family of two point four children, or whatever, is not the normal family nowadays, you've got lone parent families, you've got step parent families, reconstituted families, policies and services should take account of all the different needs of those different sorts of families, and very complex lives they lead these days? [speaker002:] Should, you're saying, and therefore, you presumably think they don't? I I should say that you're speaking... you're erm... involved with the Scottish Child and Family Alliance. [speaker001:] That's right. [speaker002:] Now, is that a pressure group or a representative group? [speaker001:] It's a representative group. It's a membership group of... er, professional and voluntary organisations and individuals working with children and families in Scotland. [speaker002:] Are you getting any way in in persuading the authorities, the relevant authorities, both central and local government that they should be doing more to recognise what you've described as the diversity of family options? [speaker001:] Well we put pressure on, but I mean I'm so I... still governments tend to feel that the normal family is is the nuclear family... and as, as Susan said earlier one parent families are seen as a burden on the state rather than a... valid... new family in society. [speaker002:] I tell you what we haven't got onto at all yet, and it's something I said we would try and talk about wh which is what what makes a good parent? Is it possible to define what makes a good parent? Is it, is it being there? Is it, yes? I don't think there is a super parent i, all you can is your be, do your best, and that's the best type of parent, is you do your best, your best ch ability. Mhm. [speaker003:] Love and time. [speaker002:] Love and time. [speaker003:] That are the two, two main ingredients of being a good parent in my opinion. [speaker002:] Now the implication of time is that er... which, who who go, who earns the money? [speaker003:] It doesn't really matter who earns the money. Erm... I have obviously, there's a generation gap here in the way that I was brought up, and the way that I started marriage thirty years ago. It was excepted that that, in a lot of cases wives were expected to give their jobs up when they're married, but I see now the mo, my... er, not my own children but my... young nieces and nephews, the men,th the husbands are present at the birth of their children, they are enchanted, they are making fantastic fathers because they are taking responsibilities! The wives are having to go back to work to maintain the mortgage and they are prepared to take their part of it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] I think a good parent is someone who's prepared to put their needs and wishes of their children before their own [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and prepare to negate their own personality to some extent for the good of a child. To change your personality when you become a parent. [speaker002:] Janice? [speaker005:] We talked about things going wrong, one of the things that's disturbed me about the tone of the discussion has been the emphasis of rights. When things go wrong, when families come into conflict, people start talking about my rights! [speaker002:] Now you're talking as a, as a solicitor, yes? [speaker005:] I am. I am also talking from a perspective of the British Agencies for Adoption and Fostering and it's concern for children generally. Erm... I don't think we need to talk about parents' rights, I think we need to look much more at the needs of children and I think we need to listen to children, er particularly when there's conflict, we need to hear what they say about their parents, about what their needs should be. Let's take the issue of responsibility seriously, not the issue of rights! [speaker002:] To be fair, I didn't, I did say we're talking about parenting and one one could do another programme perhaps, focusing on the child or the needs and rights of the child in specific, but I think I've been looking at the... almost the scariness, I suppose, of being a parent, the challenges facing parents and the whole half hour, really, has not been about the joys of parenthood, so much as the problems of parenthood! Ann,wha what do you make of that? [speaker001:] Well Ja, Janice says we should listen to the children, which is what I did, I interviewed children of divorced parents five years after their divorce, and I found that the children thought that their parents were right to di, to divorce, the parents couldn't sustain their marriages. But, for the children there was a lot of sadness... and they desperately wanted, as I think all, most children of divorced do, to keep in touch with both parents... and right from the beginning of a separation. It's very important that when parents split up... the child has the opportunity to know where... both parents are living... and how to keep in touch with both of them. [speaker002:] I think we have given rather a gloomy vision of what being a parent is [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] and probably rather a er, a wo one one that will make you think twice if you were thinking of doing it! Now, I don't how many of you are parents, eighty five of you thought your parents did a good job, fifteen didn't. Let me ask you, if you could remake decisions, or maybe you are in a position where you could, I wonder whether you would opt for parenthood now, I mean you be what, whether you're able or not able to have children, whether you have or don't have, but given the choice, would you opt for parenthood? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And given some of the difficulties which we've suggested in the course of this half hour are involved. And eighty of the hundred women here say, yes, despite the responsibilities which have been outlined, they would go for parenthood. The twenty who said no, let's just hear one or two of you, why why why did you say no? Given the choice, why would... yes Jackie? [speaker006:] I I usually there are two... categories of women. All of us as women have the right and and the ability to give birth, that is if we can, there's nothing, er, medically wrong with us... but then added to that there are those who have the ability to be good mothers,un unfortunately I don't happen to fall into that category. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] Er, but having said that I mean I have a... sweet five year old daughter and I wouldn't change her for anything, but given the second chance I wouldn't do it again. [speaker002:] How do you know you don't have the ability to be a good mother? [speaker006:] It's... it's just the strains... that I've had to go through, raising her up, and the time and the energy and just having myself to be... sane, you know... and and well! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] To make, to give her the welfare and... I've proved it, I mean I just sometimes goes off [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] I can't [speaker002:] Meg, you had the first word you can have the [speaker003:] Yeah, I'm just thinking [speaker002:] last word. [speaker003:] erm, one or two here are adoptive parents of children, not babies, but [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] children, and talking about the strain [], I mean some of these kids are very, very disturbed but I voted that I would, I would do it again. Erm, but I wouldn't do it without a father. And I was brought up virtually without a, well he felt as if he wasn't a father, he felt as though he was my younger brother all the time! I certainly would, would ado, adopt again and... [LAUGHTER] and despite the strains, and she's quite right []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] She's quite right []! But I mean as any adoptive parent here will tell you, the strains when you adopt a child, or adopt children, very disturbed children [LAUGHTER] are much worse []! And yet, I would do it again. [speaker002:] Which is where we'll have to leave it. I'll tell you one thing, listening to the range of views you've heard tonight, the different opinions and the different situations, whatever you think, you're normal! See you next week! [closing music]

[speaker001:] In a classless society, whatever that might be, what role with the monarchy play? [introduction music] [speaker002:] Nothing sells women's magazines like a photo of the Princess of Wales on the cover. Generally, it seems, we enjoy our royal family, we enjoy admiring, and we enjoy criticizing them. But what's their real function in Britain today? Is the Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society possible with the monarchy in place? And does Scotland take a different with the whole subject from the rest of the country. One hundred women reveal their true colours. Let's start with the vote. I wonder if you think we need the the monarchy? Do we need the monarchy? Button one for yes, button two for no. I mean, you may like them but would you say that... we need the monarchy? And, this particular hundred are... divided, but the minority think we need them, forty five said yes, but fifty said no. Let's start with the yes's, what what do we need them for? Yes? [speaker003:] I think them, the royalty provide a stability for the country. Erm,yo... see across the world that their political situations arise er because of an, an elected leader... and also situations arise where you have someone who's pushed himself into leadership, and I think erm... we have a, a fairly stable society here because of that. [speaker002:] So we're protected from volatile politics... and and situations. Yes? [speaker004:] If we didn't have them we would probably have dictatorship which would be even worse! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'm interested in your even worse there! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Up there? [speaker005:] I think they can be very useful because a lot of having monarchy brings, you know, American tourists, a big influx into the country, and whether that's good or not it's certainly brings money into the country, so that from that point of view it's quite good to have them. They're also a novelty within the country, I mean, the state opening of parliament for instance, it's just weird! When you look at it and they're all traipsing up and down in their strange robes and saying silly things to each other, you know, that's really weird... but it's all tradition, it's all pageantry and it's taught by the monarchy. [speaker002:] Beside you. [speaker006:] I think it's a sad indictment of our so called democratic system when they are afraid of having an elected head of state, that they are afraid that we might have a dictator! I mean, Britain is supposed to be one of the, the founding countries as far as democracy is concerned. The British [speaker002:] Mother of Parliament. [speaker006:] Quite right! Exactly! I was going to say about the mother of parliament. [speaker002:] Fine. [speaker006:] We talk of the monarchy as something there, er gossom, the gossip columnist go to town, they've got the tourists coming to see the monarchy, to see the novelty, the attraction and all the rest of it. I think it's significant that in Scotland many people have absolutely no time for the monarchy! They are either... totally against, or totally indifferent. And I think if there was a referendum in Scotland it might turn out that many people here wanted the monarchy ended. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker007:] I think that the monarchy impar, important role in... preventing civilians taking posts which the constitutional monarchy actually occupies, for example, the head of the armed forces [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] this prevents civilians from becoming far too powerful and then becoming a dictatorship. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker008:] I wasn't sure how to vote, er, I think, like a lot of people erm... I'm quite fond of the monarchy and th the... the constitutional monarchy [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] but what gets me down is not the royal bit, it's the family bit! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] And er... I mean, in, in these days, give or take, I know they've got this... this erm, value as being a soap-like Dallas with crowns on... but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] er, given the amount of poverty and misery that there is in this country, can we really justify, or can we really say that by paying... Prince Andrew a hundred thousand pounds a year we're being cost effective? [speaker002:] Here. [speaker009:] Yes, surely erm, the alternative to that is, without the state actually supporting the monarchy, the monarchy can still exist, you can't just go out and shoot Prince Edward today! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] You know that's not on! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] Stop his money! [speaker009:] The monarchy's still got to exist. Because I I [speaker008:] We could stop his money, not shoot him! [speaker009:] Yes, you could stop his money but that has the effect of privatizing the monarchy. Because instead [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] instead of the monarchy going out and they're supported by the tax payer... if the monarchy go and, say it's the queen goes [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] and opens and supermarket, then she'll get paid for opening that supermarket. [speaker008:] It's not, [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker008:] cos they can't! [speaker010:] Our [speaker009:] er [speaker010:] our royalty is erm... we sort of put on a pedestal... and if you look at other European countries who still have royal families, they're a bit more down to earth, some of them Europe go on bicycles and they don't need, erm, all the limousines. So maybe we could have royalty but they don't, we don't have to have the pomp and ceremony that goes with them and also the cost. [speaker002:] Sadie? [speaker001:] I think it's okay to have royalty, if the people that want it, pay for it. [LAUGHTER] I object to paying for it because it does nah do anything for me. [speaker002:] Down there. I don't think it's just the family, I think it's all the hangers-on. Erm, by hangers-on I mean that there are all the Dukes and the Viscounts and... whatever else there is... and that whole strata in society, which, I think is English society, erm... I mean I know that there are Dukes in Scotland but there aren't so many, and I mean they own quite a lot and I think that it's impossible to have a classless society because the monarchy perpetuate class divisions. Up there. Thelma. [speaker003:] I was going to say I represent the tourist ind, industry in Grampian, and... I don't think anybody can deny that our royal are a tremendous draw to tourists, particularly tourists from overseas. It only takes a visit by the Prince and Princess of Wales to Japan, for example, and we're inundated with Japanese tourists in Britain. [speaker002:] Is that the best thing you can say about the royal family. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Certainly, certainly not. For example, one of the attractions in my area, Balmoral Castle, as a couple of exhibitions which are open to the public for part of the year, now the entrance fees for that actually goes to charity so it benefits other people apart from the tourists themselves. Apart from providing jobs in the area as well. [speaker002:] Jennifer. [speaker004:] I would to, just make the point that the royal family do, do a lot of work for this country. The Prince of Wales is president of my organisation, Scottish Business in the Community, and ever since he agreed to take on that role he as dedicated a large amount of time... to helping us, and in turn, helping communities, not because it's it's fashionable because he really believes in it and he wants to do hard work on our behalf and on the countrys' behalf. [speaker002:] But, presumably, he would do, he would work very hard were he not a royal person, would he not? [speaker004:] I'm sure he would, but he has that greater degree of influence because of who he is. [speaker005:] I'm hopeful... with the royal family getting so involved in lobbies and British charities which do lobby, and for instance the anti-smoking lobby, where there's somebody that's supporting that there's always going to be somebody who's opposing that. So the point about the royals, erm, getting involved with these things is... there's always gonna be people that disagree with what they're lobbying for. And [speaker002:] But that's their right too. [speaker005:] well, then that brings them into... the realm of politics... and is it such a good idea to have... a royal family with opinions that are funded by the state? [speaker002:] Angela? [speaker006:] I'm with the Scottish Ballet, and I think the royal family have a great deal to offer... all of us, through the arts. [speaker002:] In what way? [speaker006:] Well, industry... and also I think, in your papers, industry, the heads of industry are men... mostly, if not all... and erm... they do like rub rubbing shoulders with er, royalty and the royal family, and the kudos... for industry... by sponsoring or funding... the arts. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] I'm not er... a great fan of the monarchy, although that I would say that I come from a family which is, devoted a large portion of it's life in service and work... to the royal family. I think one of the, the best things a member of the royal family has done, is Prince Phillip and Prince of Wa, and Prince of Wales have actually opened their mouths up and said... they're opposed to wha a lo a lo a lot of what the present government policies are and it's not, not before time, in my opinion! The other thing, which I think is a, another great misconception is er... our present Prime Ministers' policy of having a classless society, well I think the first thing is you could do is actually abolish the House of Lords and that will certainly be a start on having a classless society in this country. [speaker002:] Well, would you take it further then and abolish the monarchy? [speaker007:] Erm... yes, I would like to abolish the monarchy but I don't think it's gonna happen over night, and I think it will be a very difficult thing to achieve anyway. [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker008:] I, I was very angry abo, with what Prince Charles said... erm... about education, because his ideas are just handed down without any, ah, without us ha being informed in any way of where he's getting his information from. We don't know upon what he's basing what he's saying, whether it's on his own particular memories of school, whether it's been informed by, department of education officials in England, or Scottish education officials up here, and I think any up, any where somebody, something as crucial teachi, any job, er, where somebody who's uninformed is making pronouncements which are considered to be sufficiently important that they're read out on th, on the six o'clock news and in the papers [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker008:] the next morning, should at least be informed! [speaker001:] Mm. Yes [speaker002:] But but even if he's uninformed why shouldn't he speak? I mean, who's getting it wrong? Oh we,yo you think [speaker008:] Yeah. [speaker002:] he's getting it wrong, you obviously think the media's getting it wrong in reporting it! Is he abusing [speaker008:] No. [speaker002:] his position? [speaker008:] I think if he's making pronouncements which are being picked up and treated as very important, and they're only being treated as important because of his position... then he should be ba, getting his facts right! [speaker002:] Sandra? [speaker009:] There are great dangers in the royal family speaking out because I have a memory of... the nineteen seventy nine, just prior to the devolution bill in the referendum in Scotland, when the Queen spoke out against devolution, now she in, in effect denied a large number of Scots the opportunity to have some sort of Scottish Parliament based here, and we probably wouldn't, I think, be debating this subject today, if in fact we'd got that eleven years ago. [speaker002:] Why... I if if we had got devolution eleven years ago? [speaker009:] Well I think there's a distinct possibility that the people have Scotland may have then decided that they could do without the monarchy. I have nothing against the monarchy, in principle, erm... I think that perhaps if we had our own parliament in Scotland and had the Queen as a head of state, as do... Australia, Canada, and all the commonwealth countries, that would be fine. I don't particularly like the set up as it is as the moment. [speaker002:] Pat? [speaker010:] Yes, I'm... hearing the, the business anti-hostile feeling towards the monarchy in Scotland, and yet I can remember the Silver Jubilee celebrations when these same undertones were about, and yet, she was greeted on her royal progress all over Scotland, even in areas that you wouldn't have expected with vast crowds! Now, part of that might just have purely the ritual... that's associated with things like coronations and investitures, but surely if people had felt so strongly about it they wouldn't have turned out in such numbers, er to... support her. [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker001:] I think the one thing, that that really annoys me about the royal family is the way they speak... and the fact that the way that they speak is still re re regarded by certain sections of the, population, both in Scotland and in England, as being er, the correct way in which the English language should be pronounced, which is of course, arrant nonsense! But, I mean, there, there are still areas... erm... where, that that kind of pronunciation is, is a si, a symbol of prestige, of education, or... even have said, of good looks, humour and attractiveness. Erm, and I think that aspect of the royal family is one which I would really do without! [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Fergie... personally in the hospice where I work Mhm. and she is a very, very caring person! I mean th, they... what they say in the press about her is, is terrible, I think! I mean, took the point of coming round all the staff, talking to them personally... every patient... and she made a point of getting down on her knees and talking to the patient personally! Sadie. [speaker001:] I just worries me that these caring people are the same people that support the Tory policies that oppressed Yes! the people! They rub shoulders with industrialists that oppress us, pays low wages, bad conditions [speaker003:] That's rubbish! [speaker001:] poor hours! [speaker003:] An awful lot of things that are Tory party policy, that the royals don't agree with! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] For instance, Prince Charles recently made comments about electoral reform. You know, I mean that that goes beyond parties! Okay, there are liberal democratics who'll say that they are the party committed to electoral reform, there are others, and other parties who are as well! And Prince Charles is starting to say things about that... and whether that was misquoted in the press or whether he actually said it, the point was... it was leaked that he had said it to a group of MP's. I mean... I I would say that was an abuse of the position of power, because if he was Joe Bloggs in the street nobody would listen to what he was saying about electoral reform! [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] Er, I think Prince who, perhaps dealt with domestic politics, but one thing he has exposed is the green cause which I'm very pleased about because I don't think that the politicians in this country take these issues seriously enough! And somebody with his influence and power, it's good to have him on our side, as it were. [speaker002:] Rhona? [speaker005:] I was erm... i... quite sickened actually by... the fact that that Princess Anne comes on the television and talks about how we have to... to give our lunch to save starving people when you think... your one royal lunch would probably pay the third world of some [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] some countries! Erm a,th th the situ, you know the situation abo, about about charity, charity... we've we've seen it all before and it hasn't helped the starving millions in Africa, it's beginning to start all over again. You know i i... feeds into that idea I think that the the... you know, people in Africa are impotent and that we have to put put into our pockets to help them when we're destroying massive amounts of grain. We live in a very unequal society [speaker002:] What [speaker005:] and the monarchy typify that in equality. [speaker002:] What do you think about then? [speaker006:] I mean compared with other [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker006:] nations I think we do very little, I mean, we do a lot for charity... but if you look our planet is dying as, you look at the green issue we are far behind so monarchy doesn't help us there. [speaker007:] They er [speaker002:] Yes, okay. [speaker008:] There's a lot erm, women do a lot of voluntary work round the hospitals as it is, but it's never... they're never wrote about when they go [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] visiting hospital. That lady said... when one of the royals went it was nice to see, but I mean there's women that do that every day... of the week and it's never writ about then! I mean they're just ordinary people. [speaker002:] I mentioned at the beginning the idea of a classless society, now I don't know what you think of the er... the idea of a classless society, it's something that the... th th Prime Minister erm... er er talked about when he, when he took office and I asked whether you think it's possible to have,we if you think a classless society is possible at all, whether you think it's desirable. Er, if it is desirable is it possible to have one with a monarchy in place do you think? Yes Sadie? [speaker001:] I think it would be a desirable erm... idea to have a classless society as long as we're all middle class! [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] I think there's a lot erm... dandying about of this er, this idea that there will be a classless society. It doesn't look like it! The the gulf between the rich and the poor is getting bigger so where on earth, where is the the er... the proof that we're becoming a classless society? [speaker002:] Well I don't I was suggesting we were becoming one but I was suggesting that the Prime Minister thought this is desirable. Maybe you don't believe him but that, he has he has said this. [speaker009:] I don't no. I don't! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] I think to have a classless society in this country everybody has to be equal... and not just from the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich, but also there's many people in this country who suffer from persecution. Now, there's been lots of talk about gay and lesbian people not having no rights, I come from a Jewish society, I've got people who suffer anti-semitic ri, feelings, there's lot of erm... multi-ra, ethnic majorities who cover... on this programme, and I think that issue has to be looked at as well. And I think this, you know, to have a classless society all these things have to be covered, not just the rich and poor, oh and getting rid of the monarchy. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] You're talking about have and have not, but have and have not in the sense of money... surely class is not just money? [speaker002:] What else is it? [speaker001:] Well class is inbred and er class is something you have or you haven't, and if you have money or if you don't have money. [jeering] [speaker002:] I think the monarchy is stopping us from being a classless society but I can't think of one country in the world... whether it's communist, whether it's a new country like Australia what doesn't have the rich, the poor, the upper class and the lower Mm. the monarchy doesn't stop us. So they're not playing any part in perpetuating I don't think so at all. a class? I just thinks it's human nature. [speaker003:] Coming back to what [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker003:] the other woman said [speaker002:] No Fiona, beside you. [speaker004:] There maybe societies where there is... a privilege and inequality, but as long as we have in Britain a system where the head of the state, is head of state because the person inherited the position of being monarch... and as long as we have a institution such as the House of Lords. We are talking of a system where people are born into certain families... and by right of that simply because [speaker001:] What about them? [speaker004:] they're born into it, they have this position. [speaker005:] They were born into it and Americas doesn't have a monarchy. But the nearest thing Americans ever had to it was the Kennedys. They all inherited! [speaker002:] day. [speaker006:] May I point out that we haven't had a monarch in residence here since sixteen hundred and three. [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker006:] But I see no evidence of Scotland having become a classless society! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] But Scotland is part of, of of the United Kingdom. [speaker006:] Nevertheless, we are a holiday place for the royal family! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh! Marjorie? [speaker007:] I'm not all that sure how desirable a classless society is... in that I can't visualize any society in the world which is classless. I'm thinking towards the eastern European countries, for example, where... one is told, or has been led to believe they were aiming for classlessness and what's happening... th barriers are coming down and they're heading towards our... capitalist society... as a [speaker002:] But [speaker007:] model. [speaker002:] Well you seem to have more or less damned the er... Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society! So asking you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] what what the role of monarchy within the such a society would be becomes rather irrelevant. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Can I hear from the people who think that yes, we do need the monarchy and it is the minority in this er... hundred, forty five of you said yes. Can we go back to that, I mean we've heard that they're good for tourism [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] they're good for patronage, they encourage people who have money to er, to put it into the arts, they're... they promote stability and they they save us from a dictatorship, is that it? I mean is that [speaker008:] Erm [speaker002:] is that, yes? [speaker008:] the monarchy are non political... and therefore, when they choose to speak it's usually out of a genuine concern for that problem, it's not for popularity or personal gain... because they are there already... and, I think that is quite important when po politicians tend to do good it's usually to get votes. [speaker002:] But there are other people apart from politicians who who speak out, who have public prominence too. [speaker008:] Well you feel with the royal family, they do not need to go round visiting hospitals. [speaker001:] Mm! [speaker008:] They do not need to go erm... and th th they they have their own positions... and I think a lot of what they speak is of genuine concern. [speaker002:] Rhona. [speaker005:] But I think you have to remember that a at one time the monarchy were very unpopular, you know er,cre, during the time of Queen Victoria they were very unpopular and there was... I suppose, nearly a republic at the time, and in fact, the monarchy do have to make themselves popular. If they, if they don't become media personalities and do all the things they do on the telly and visit the hospitals, then we might very well get fed up paying the money for them when you consider the Queen is the richest person in the world is she not? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well let's count the number of times, so let's put that to the vote. Do you think the civil list should be abolished? Button one for yes, button two for no. And it may come out very akin to the er, the earlier vote. Well no, even people think who think that we need the monarchy aren't very keen on the civil list. Seventy five of them say yes, let's abolish list. [speaker009:] I object to the fact that... no taxes are paid... therefore inequality is there... automatically. What we could choose to do if we wanted to keep them as that figure head and as a P R... agency almost, we could pay them a specific salary, similar to other people who work in advertising industry [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] and leave it at that. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] Yeah but I agree totally with what, and the other lady has just said, but the other thing is... is the amount of money that is spent when, you know, someone royal is coming for a visit because all of a sudden, you know, you have people in this country who are living in absolute poverty and yet because the royal sort of erm... limousine is going past erm, for a few seconds where they stay all of a sudden the front of the house is painted! And there was an instance a few years ago I think where they were going somewhere in Glasgow and a toilet was put in [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] erm, but other people for the rest of, you know erm the time... er, that they live in they have to live in poverty! I don't agree with the amount of money that's spent on the royal... family. [speaker002:] Even if their visits give a kind of pleasure that er, Elizabeth suggested er the th the, the Duchess of Yorks' visit to, brought to the hospice that she works at? I mean she said everyone was delighted to see it! Isn't it [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] worth a lick of paint? [speaker001:] I remember when I worked in Ninewells and the Queen Mother was coming and the same thing happened, the domestics had to work over time to clean up Ninewells which is a relatively new hospital. When she did come we were all excited, but we all got told to get off the concourse and hide! [LAUGHTER] None of us... because we were domestics... got to actually see the Queen Mother! Which I think how, why did that happen? Because she is... royal family and we're so little. You know what I mean? I couldn't understand that at all! [speaker002:] Moira? [speaker001:] You would think that, I think that the people in in your hospice would have been just as happy to see somebody from Eastenders... and you wouldn't have to pay for Yeah. the privilege! Mm! [LAUGHTER] And I don't think it's the royals Neighbours. [speaker002:] Angela, would somebody from Eastenders er, provoke the kind the cash flow from the industrialists that companies that yours are looking for? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] I doubt it []! I don't think so. No, I mean in in industry... and... also the the... the artists, they do enjoy er royal patronage... because they know that it is... an asset... to the arts. [speaker002:] Mhm. Millie? Yes I think er people should hear that er er er... the royal family's had a lot of correction in the past with the outside world and er... come and go and you know, people know the royal family very well and they attract a lot of business, a lot of things go on behind the scenes whether it's from glamour point of view. All also with the great work of Princess Diana with Save the Children, I think it's wonderful! And I, she at least goes and sees what happening, I wish some of the politicians would do that, and go and see. Mm mm. [speaker003:] Well nobody's mentioned the Queen... and I think the Queen's done an excellent job! Cos she was put in that job when she was only a young girl... and she's never brought any shame... or anything, not like the young ones are doing now! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I'm, I [speaker002:] There. [speaker004:] agree with that lady over there about er Queen, I think she does a wonderful job and, it's come through... lately there like she just... suffers the same as any natural mother, their family, the way they live, the way their [speaker001:] I know! [speaker004:] is. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] The family she's got! [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Well they're well lo, they're well paid for it! But, as I say she's a modern outlook is a difference from the Queen, I think Queen Elizabeth [speaker001:] She tends to be [speaker004:] you know? [speaker001:] say she's a bit depressed and say [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Well actually I [speaker001:] Maybe [speaker004:] I thought we were gonna a new Queen [speaker001:] Well! [speaker004:] a couple of months ago, will it, will it be Maggie? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I said we enjoyed admiring and criticizing the royal family, we have admired and criticized them in the course of the last half hour. Only thirty five of the hundred here think that we er, need this monarchy so let me ask you a final question, do you think Britain, therefore, should be a republic? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And after half an hour of discussing the good things and the less good things about the royal family... the vote... [sigh]... [LAUGHTER], apart from a few abstentions, we have worried a few people... fo fo fo forty three people say we think that it should be a republic, fifty four no, so there is... there's a swing factor in the middle. We don't need the monarchy... we don't need a republic either, maybe these are the pro-dictatorship people that we're all so worried about! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Thank you for joining us. Goodbye.

[speaker001:] Feeling blue? What do you do? One hundred women have an idea or two. [introduction music] [speaker002:] Talking about depression is not something we do much, which is odd really because everybody gets depressed and vast numbers of us need help from time to time. Though because perhaps we feel guilty or embarrassed about the whole area of mental health we're not tackling the problems when they come up nearly as well we might. So we're going to try and start to change all that now. Let me ask the one hundred women here, have you ever been depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And perhaps the only surprising thing about that result is that, is that seven people have said no! Ninety three have said yes. Let me ask you whether you would regard yourself a depressive person? Would you say are depressive rather than simply get depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there, only sixteen say they're depressive [sigh]... er people, eighty four no but the great majority here have been depressed from time to time. About what? I mean th a great variety of things are depressing but can you identify what makes you depressed? [speaker003:] Lack of money. [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker003:] Lack of money. [speaker002:] Lack of money. And that's something, that must be a very [speaker003:] Aha. [speaker002:] common one? [speaker003:] Aha. And then that your, your household is... well, the sort of er, someone's lost their job, you know, you start... what are we're gonna do? You know, how are we gonna manage? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] Etcetera. [speaker002:] Who else? Ya? [speaker004:] After a baby. Baby blues. [speaker002:] Baby blues. Did you have baby blues? [speaker004:] Yes. After my last one. [speaker002:] Just after one? [speaker004:] After the last one. [speaker002:] What's it like? [speaker004:] Absolutely terrible! Horrendous! [speaker002:] What did you [speaker004:] I, well I just didn't realize it was anything like that, I had... I've had four children and the last one... there was thirteen years difference between them... and it was really, really terrible! He was about six months old... and I didn't know what was wrong with me. [speaker002:] How long did it last? [speaker004:] About three months... before I finally, I was husband made me go to the doctor... or go to the doctors for me... and that's when I realized it was depression... I didn't know anything about it then. [speaker002:] Really? Had you not been warned? Had you not [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] read anything? [speaker004:] No. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] Sometimes you don't need anything to make [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] you depressed. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] Sometimes you've got a depressive illness. You know, a manic depressive or a schizophrenic or whatever. [speaker002:] Yeah. Beside you. [speaker006:] Living with somebody depressive has made me depressed on frequent occasions... and th th the feelings of helplessness that you have in dealing with the person's depression. [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker007:] Erm, one of the things that depresses me, is probably the main thing that depresses me... is not being valued for what I am or what I do... and I think many women suffer from depression because their strengths and their creativity are not recognised and valued. [speaker002:] Mm. Anna? [speaker008:] Being a single parent. [speaker002:] Is that depressing? [speaker008:] Yeah cos there's, on your own all the time... and... you feel you've got no time for yourself... and that can be fairly bad at times. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] Er, it's not just single parents, I think er, married couples as well cos I think [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker009:] society expects everybody to cope well... and they don't. So I think that can become... quite depressive as well. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker010:] I think from what everyone's saying... being a woman in Scotland today is that in itself er, a cause for depression. I think trying to exist in society at the moment is extremely difficult. And there's wi wide... er, spread unemployment... and there's the stress of being as... that lady said, a single parent, erm, for women who work and have families they have their old conflict between what they're doing, doing at home and what they're doing at their work and who should have a priority. So I think erm, just a combination of trying to get through the week can be a sort of depression for many women. [speaker002:] How do you cope with it, the ninety three of you who get depressed from time to time, whether it's severely or... or or or not so severely? [speaker001:] I think it's a matter of giving yourself time... of accepting that maybe you're feeling low or I fe, when I'm feeling low I say right, I can't cope with things... I've got to give myself some time where nothing's gonna bother me, if I can manage it, an hour, half an hour, just doing something... for myself that I really like and that helps me... once I accept myself as being depressed then it helps alleviate the stress involved with it. [speaker002:] Is that something you think would work for everyone. [speaker001:] I think it's worth a try. Doing something you like, if you can give yourself half an hour, or an hour, you know just say this is for me, and for me only. [speaker002:] Mm mm. I think with erm, I I was brought up in a household where it was com, completely legitimate to admit to being depressed... and that you would just have to cope, I think cope perhaps my most Mm. least favourite word in the entire language! Women coping all over the Mm. place with Mm. all sorts of terrible stresses... and the only... sort of legitimate reason for collapsing is to allow somebody else to cope beautifully with your... collapse. I think with er, it's very interesting that people are actually admitting that they feel depressed and they have strategies for dealing with it. I'm sure it's re relatively recent. It probably is. It'll be useful [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] to hear more of the strategies. Yes? [speaker003:] I think it's important to get a listening ear and know that there are other people around who will give you support. You have to search that out. I'm not su, absolutely convinced, in terms of saying [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] having an hour... away from it is enough, I think there are a number of women who need to look and get support... from somewhere. [speaker002:] Is that hard to do... would you say? [speaker003:] Erm... I think... well I think it is, at times. I think in terms of people knowing, in terms of women knowing where they actually can get that support from. And also actually getting them there, themselves there in the first place is very difficult. [speaker002:] Where's the... yes? [speaker004:] I think it helps if you can identify whether the the erm depression is just caused by... erm... the circumstances round about you which can be alleviated by changing them or if it's caused by... eating habits or erm or... erm... hormones or chemical imbalances in, I've suffered, I think, from all them as well! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] Say like... erm... th... stresses we're all under will cause depression, but after my had my children I suffered from reactive hyperglycaemia, low blood sugar, and we, that was glucose intolerance and I think an awful lot of women... erm, suffer th from this and it's not... erm... found out... and knowing... the glucose intolerance I can understand how a lot of children erm, suffer from er... problems with eating habits because I think this is being discovered more and more [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker004:] and I think society should be... erm, trying to get to the root cause of like, chemical imbalances and... eating problems rather than just putting people on tranquillizers. [speaker002:] Well I wonder how many people here, I mean ninety three people say they ha, they th they occasionally do get depressed, I wonder if you ever have taken... er, mood controlling drugs such as tranquillizers? Have you? Button one for yes, button two for no. It's erm... it's regarded as er... as an increasing problem... er amongst women. Thirty nine have. Now we're talking about how you cope, the thirty nine who have do they work? Don't they work? Would you recommend it or wouldn't you? And obviously everybody has a different experience of this. Yes? [speaker005:] Er, I actually had two stillborn babies, one... one year after each other and they put me on Valium and it didn't do me any good at all! And my little boy was... he was only about three at the time... and I used to be... used to angry at him and... my neighbour used to come in and take him. And... I was married to a soldier so I didn't have any family round about me at the time so it was... it was pretty hard. And coming off valium was a lot harder because you don't realize that when you're on it you can't get back off it again. [speaker002:] Did you, did you get help coming off it? [speaker005:] Erm [speaker002:] Well you were obviously, well you prescribed it in the first place [speaker005:] Well [speaker002:] that was supposed to be help. [speaker005:] it was, it was actually there was a programme on television and my husband took me to the doctor and he said he felt I'd been on it too long, I'd been on it about six months and... when I come off it, I come off it pretty quick... and... I ended up erm... I didn't know what was wrong with me and it ended up I've now got epilepsy, and they didn't know if it was caused through... erm... I took a stroke about three four month after that and then I got the epilepsy as well, so they don't know if that... me coming off it [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker005:] straight away, I just... stopped it. [speaker002:] Down there. [speaker006:] Erm, I was erm, put on... just for in ninety seventy three and your question that you're asked was... and from nineteen seventy three till three years ago... erm... I know... took my causes, I trust, put my trust in the doctors and erm... over all those years I didn't realize that... it was actually the tablets that was causing me the mental illness. And saying that, in the last three years I since discovered, and it was quite difficult to, which I did find, that there was alternative erm... therapists, which was lots of groups that were going on and once I got into it... erm the, it opened up a new, you know I ne I've never saw the light at the tunnel that is shining brightly now! [speaker002:] Has anybody had the opposite experience with er... with the kind of the drugs we're talking about, whereby they have been helpful and th, and they, and they would recommend them? Yeah? [speaker007:] Er, I think anti-depressants can be helpful for a certain length of time but not for... over a prolonged period of time. Erm... and I think there's a big difference between them and tranquillizers and people tend to get the two mixed up. I think tranquillizers can be useful as well for a very short... time limited period. Erm, but I certainly found anti-depressants helpful. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes? [speaker008:] Yes. I just wanted to say that speaking as a psychiatrist [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] valium is not an accepted treatment for depression and that we have... excellent anti-depressant drugs, particularly ones that have come just in recent years that are very effective for depression, and I think bringing a great deal of benefit to depressed people. [speaker002:] Well Ray say,i i I mean it's important that we yo you find out whether you are depressive, whether you have... er ag, oh, something... clinically wrong with you, whether you're just feeling a bit down. But perhaps we don't really know enough and we don't know where to go for information, I mean I don't know er I, I I'm not an expert but there are experts here, how would you... assess the services available to people who feel they do need help, or for people [LAUGHTER] who perhaps [] don't know they need help? Yes? [speaker009:] Yes I think the situation in Scotland is very poor! I'm, I'm an alternative medicine practitioner and I tend to get a lot of people who are depressed coming to see me, people who... have been through the normal routes [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] gone to their GP's, and often have been given some sort of... medicine for their depression but haven't had the... counselling side of things dealt with... and they've just been given re-prescriptions, not necessarily seen every time for a re-prescription. [speaker002:] Behind you. [speaker010:] I think there are a number of counselling services available, but I also think it's very difficult sometimes for women to get there [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] and it's it's something about the shame around depression that we don't actually come forward for counselling and there's certainly not enough free counselling services in Scotland. [speaker002:] There. [speaker001:] I'm also an alternative therapist and I do find that this is one of the major problems, that ninety percent of my patients who come to me suffer from stress and depression, and really what has happened in a lot of cases is that they have been put on valium and drugs, they find the side effects are horrific! And actually really in a last resort in many cases they come to you. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. I went through a period of depression... erm... I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told that I was suffering from various illnesses, but nothing helped. I was given anti- depressants, that didn't help... and it wasn't until four years later when they actually admitted me to hospital and then an ulcer... and the depression disappeared once it had been diagnosed. But all the time I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told, first of all it was gall stones Mm. then it was something else Mm. then it was something else... and I honestly thought the doctor thought I was cracked! There's nothing the matter with me! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And I was taken into hospital and it was an ulcer... and the depression disappeared after that. Mm. There. [speaker003:] I think speaking as another psychiatrist er... the medical profession do have to look very carefully and perhaps how a lot of the damage has been done... er with how women perceive whether they can ask for help or not because a lot of the women here have raised... been giving tranquillizers and... my colleague across there has pointed out that tranquillizers are not an appropriate way of treating depression. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] And diagnosis is very, very important... that, if you have... a medical, clinical state of depression try and pull yourself out of it, by your, your own efforts and doing alternative things is not necessarily going to be effective. And diagnosis is very important, as a psychiatrist again, training our medical students, we are trying to do a lot of education along that line because perhaps some of the older GP's, along the way, have not... recognised the importance of this. [speaker004:] Well I, I went to a psychiatrist once... looking for a self-help group... cos I didn't want tablets or anything I just wanted somebody I could talk to. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] But what I found when I went was I had to go through the psychiatrist to find this group cos it wasn't available. My doctor didn't know anything about it. So having gone there I got counselling which I found was very useful to me. More useful than all the medications and so forth like them. [speaker002:] So once you found it [speaker004:] Aha. [speaker002:] it was helpful? Yes? Up there. [speaker005:] Yes. Now, when I took post-natal depression I asked my health visitor, you know, where do you go? And she sent me to a mother and toddler group, I mean, she didn't tell me about any self-help groups, it's mother and toddler, she just said take you and the baby and go to mother and toddler and that'll be it. And that's all the help I got from my G P. [speaker002:] Beside you. [speaker006:] I found that erm, we run par, a self-help group as well for ladies with post-natal depression [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and I found, for me personally and a lot of other mothers that it started in pregnancy. Now, I don't know if anybody's had the experience but they're only interested in your unborn child, they're not interested in how you feel at that time. I mean, you think you give birth... and you're forgotten, I mean your health visitor visits your baby, and then you've got the baby blues, and we we are trying to do something to get them to help... and warn people about when they are pregnant it can happen because it does start then, not after you've had the baby, it builds up... and them wham, it hits you! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] I think mental illness isn't taken seriously enough. I think that er, there's a problem, first of all you've identified that women... experience er, depression and I think that's not taken very seriously by policy makers and people in power,na namely men. [speaker008:] I think women get depressed but men suffer from stress which is somehow more respectable it's more macho, it's associated [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] with work... and [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] you know, there are all sorts of means of dealing with stress [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] which are not always open to women. But it's more pu, you know, it's... almost de rigueur,mo amongst certain types of executive... to be suffering from stress. And I suspect it's the same kind of actual physical complaint that women who complained of being depressed have. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] Women have a lot different stress than men. Men [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] go out nine to five to work, they are stressed nine till five, women, especially women with children have it twenty [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] four hours a day, they don't have a nine to five job, they're on call twenty four hours a day and that's a lot more stressful. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] I think that men tend to rely more on a crutch such as alcohol... I don't if it relieves [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker010:] the problem more but it tends to be men that cope in that way... and women... aren't seen to cope as well, maybe they just don't use things like alcohol [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] as much as the men. [speaker001:] Well I'm vo involved in Crossline which is a... a Christian run telephone helpline, erm, we off, also offer free counselling and they find that er, there's more men will actually pick up the telephone, cos they're not seen... erm, whereas more women will actually come in for face to face counselling. I think it's a stigma that a lot of men feel they can't show that they're depressed or they've got a problem so they'll pick up a ph, a phone. [speaker002:] Yes? Well as the speaker before last mentioned, men are in fact diagnosed twice as often as women... are suffering from alcoholism. I think men tend to act out their depression more than women. Yes? [speaker003:] I'd just like to raise a point that erm most men are psychiat, er mo most of the psychiatrists are men and that a lot of the diagnosis I feel, come from a very sort of... patriarchal view... erm, you know a lot of have sort of brought up the alternative sort of... er medicine and er self-help groups, and to me, having been through psychiatry which is a, a huge machine that is very difficult to get out that er... to me, that's the only future... and there's millions of pounds going into psychiatry and we're reviewing it now with community care plans... which, I I don't think anybody is actually clear about... but er, you know, the the millions that are put into psychiatry, I'd like to see more sort of counselling er, become available or, more money given to sort of er... mental health associations. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Following, from what was said there... we know that there's, that there's a limited pot for mental health because that's the way it's going to be, we've been told that... so there's a real big job for women [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] to look at... er, a P R job about changing the way those resources are used... so that they're used in the way that's been talked away, er, talked about tonight... which is way that clearly many wo, many women want to see them being used. And women have to got to get, get out there and ensure that the people who do plan the way that these services are are operated and... managed an an... all the things evaluated, that women have a real say in that. [speaker002:] Which women? The women who are the professionals in the field or being [speaker004:] No. The women who will use the services, women who have used the services in the past, and women who will use them in the future, and that's all of us. [speaker002:] Now, say more about that practically, because I mean if you're depressed, you may feel too depressed to go to a... a professional, you may have great difficulty getting there for whatever reason because you're ashamed as someone mentioned, you're embarrassed, you don't want to admit you can't cope, which is a syndrome... once you get there how do you pluck up the courage to say well actually what your offering me isn't good enough, I've heard on on... television there is something better... and I want it? [speaker004:] Gosh! There'll be other people here who I'm sure who have done it. But, it's up to organisations like the ones we work for to respond to that... and to not be doing the planning on behalf of other people. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] I think we're still talking here about depression and how to go... and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] find a cure... erm... perhaps we should try and think about why we get depressed in the first place, I know there's lot of people who co, here have had problems. I think it's important to find... space for ourselves... which sometimes we just don't do. You know, find things to do... to occupy ourselves in other ways. [speaker002:] You mean cope? Mm. [speaker005:] Well, no not cope but to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] to enable us to cope we have find space for ourselves, do something, purely for ourselves rather than always be thinking about our children, thinking about the home... thinking about the family, we're as important and I think that's what people must realize to begin with. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] I suffer more from a feeling of guilt, perhaps than men do. I think it's part of a vicious circle, that sometimes it's guilt which leads to depression... and then... women feel guilty about being depressed and that's why they take what is on offer to them. I think there's a great cult of perfection... amongst women, that they're trying to be all [speaker001:] Aha. [speaker006:] things to all people all the time. [speaker007:] Research has shown recently that erm... a life event, such as you described can precipitate depression in someone who's self esteem is low and I think this is where we women are more vulnerable. Although we've advanced a great deal in the last fifty years, we still have a way to go and our self esteem is lower... than men. [speaker002:] I want to turn this right round because a couple of people have mentioned guilt and er... I I suspect that one of the reasons that women are a bit worried about talking about depression or or... campaigning for changes in policy, or more funding, or or whatever, is that for a long time women have been thought of as the weaker sex, more emotional, more nervous, by a, a a male establishment, I'm talking about past centuries, isn't there a case for saying there's actually... we have a right to be depressed, I mean, obviously it's normal, ninety three of you get depressed from time to time, the majority of you don't think you... clinically depressive... if it is, if it's normal to be depressed shouldn't the services to cope with depression, if we need outside help, be there and there's no shame in it? I mean, you've got the right to go to the dentist, the right to go to the doctor! Yes? [speaker008:] I think what would be helpful for all of us is to think of our er... mental health rather than mental illness [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] and er, you know it's part of a spectrum, and if we're all as aware of er mental health as we are with physical health now, and if that was, was carried out in public education campaigns and in schools, I think you're right, we would have this right to mental illness as part of a overall mental health. [speaker002:] Ray? [speaker001:] Erm, it is part of the e education curriculum and design, the development of inter-personal, pschyo-motor and cognition skills apparently [LAUGHTER] so if the experts e actually gave me galloping schizophrenia because on one [LAUGHTER] hand I thought hallelujah and in the other hand will we make as mak, bigger mess of this as they did in multisensory teaching methods... in a coordinative approach to learning? What are the... experts view on this? How are they going to manage to implement this without making the situation any worse! [speaker002:] You'll blind us with science if we go into that right now! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] Erm, I think one of the important bits is th, the issue of... why is is part of it, why people get depressed? And I think it's, a great deal of it is to do with failed expectations. [speaker002:] Whose? [speaker009:] And... people get depressed, like when they're dealing with bereavement, that's an event in a person's life... and causes short term dis, short term, very intense distress, but that's different from... the way we're constructed through the media and all sorts of ways to be super mothers, super wives, super kiddie and a super this that and the next thing which none of use can meet all these demands at one go! But because, the media hold out these expectations as the norm and people can't meet them all, they then feel failures [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker009:] and that is also why, going back to a point earlier on, why I think erm... counselling and alternative medicine, and so on, is marginalized... it would be such a rock to the social order to actually acknowledge that people are in distress because it's the social order that's causing that distress. [speaker002:] It's the media again! [speaker009:] But it's tru [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] And the patriarchal society. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] But [speaker010:] I just wanted to bring up some of the underlying reasons for depression, and one of the large things that society is having to address just now is... child sexual abuse [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] which er er in my profession as well I come up against... all the time and I I think that we're not really... acknowledging that that is very often a cause, for men and women [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] er... of future mental health problems. [speaker002:] Beside you. [speaker001:] Yes. I I wonder really, the only rational appro, response to the world at the moment isn't to be depressed, I mean, everyone looks around famines in Africa, and war and jus and depredation [speaker002:] Mm Mhm. [speaker001:] all around us [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] as well as more domestic problems within Scotland of unemployment and so on, I mean, really depression should be regarded as a normal response [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and what women are experiencing half the time is perfectly rational. [speaker002:] Yes. I don't actually believe that that depression is normal, I believe that we can overcome depression, and I think there is some creative things that we can do out of a depression people can become stronger, they can tap into their resources inside with support and help, so I can believe it's a positive experience. Mhm. [speaker003:] I think that it's important to recognize that... to have a depressed mood is not to have a depressed illness [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] we all can get depressed if we're talking about a mood state, that's not an illness. Depression, as an illness is not normal any more than having an ulcer [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] or a coronary is normal, and I think again, that stops people for asking for help because the they're not sure whether it's a depressed mood... or an illness. If it's an illness... it's a stigma. [speaker004:] I think it's also part that you know, you're walking along the street and you bump into somebody and they'll say, well how you doing today? Say, oh I'm fine! You never say, I'm depressed, and they're never really listening for you to actually say how you really are. Our society goes round all the time expecting everybody to be fine, to be happy, to be cheerful, you know! You're not allowed just in your day to day life to say to somebody, unless you know them really well, it's the shits today! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Well I'm afraid we're out of time there []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] There is help if you need it, out there and I hope, you may have heard something helpful tonight... and er... if you feel inclined to change things, I think everybody here would encourage you. Goodnight. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Starting a baby isn't always easy, but nowadays doctors and scientists offer a range of assistance. So, are we grateful? Or do test tubes, sperm banks and surrogate mothers bring more problems than they solve? [introduction music] [speaker002:] The desire to conceive and bear children is a strong one in many women, not all of them in conventional relationships. Reproductive technology now allows human fertility to be assisted in a variety of ways, but such progress can bring difficult decisions for women, and their partners, for doctors, scientists, and law makers. Today, one hundred women discuss some of these decisions and try to identify who's body and who's baby we're talking about in different situations. Let me start with a vote, do you welcome advances in reprod, in reproductive technology, as far as you know about them, do you welcome advances in reproductive technology? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And amongst this hundred, ninety two say yes. Only eight say no. So of the ninety two, why? Who voted yes, and why? Yes? [speaker003:] I'm not married and don't have any children and I would love to have children and if I found out that I couldn't have any I would do anything to have them. But I think that you have got to... regulate these things and... choose couples, like you may, as you do for adoptive children... and not, just like... throw in anybody... these things have got to be controlled. [speaker002:] Right, so you have some reservations already about what you know is available. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Who else said yes? Yes? [speaker004:] Well I feel it's the right of every woman that wants a baby to know what it's like to hold her own baby in her own arms. [speaker002:] No matter what i she has to go through. [speaker004:] Yeah, how she gets it. [speaker002:] Any other yes's? Well of course there are other yes's. Yes? [speaker005:] Erm, I have children of my own, that I had naturally and I said yes, but with reservation because erm... I I've often wondered in the case of a handicapped baby... er, that was... born to a surrogate mother... and the surrogate mother... wanted to keep it simply because it was handicapped, or... if she knew she was gonna have a handicapped baby... the amniocentesis test... and if she wanted to abort the baby... but the mother-in-waiting didn't... who would decide? [speaker002:] There were eight no's, would anybo, would any of the eight no's like to explain why they don't welcome advances? Would any of you like to, yes? [speaker006:] Erm, I think really because it's actually a sign of erm... self centredness [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] in some women, it sounds very nice they would do anything to have a baby but what about the baby, and what about the baby's rights? You know, you're sort of turning the abortion argument on it's head, that er... in an abortion you can say it's my body, I have a right to decide, and this baby that dies is never going to be there to question that decision, but in this type of situation the baby's going to be there... and okay, you'll get so many who will just accept their situation and won't question it, but you're always going to get some, or even one who will say I want to know my origins, I want to why I was conceived this way, why I was born this way, why, I have two mothers, that maybe a surrogate mother and a natural mother? Erm, that's just human nature. [speaker007:] Yes, hello. I'd like to, just like to say that a woman erm, who cannot have children... erm... and... re... has got to the end of the road, no medical mirac, miracles can help her, erm, if surrogacy is the only option for her... then... they've, these... pe, couples like myself have gone through such a long... erm... struggle to get where they are that any child that's conceived... is gonna be a wonderfully loved childed and explained, everything's explained to the child as... he or she grows up. There's absolutely not doubt in my mind that, my mind that a child born erm... with a special background will be treated, and feel special about it... and will appreciate and understand the... the erm... the background of the case and and the miseries of th their parents have gone through in orve, in order to have a child. [speaker002:] You said, that's your experience? [speaker007:] Yes. Yes. I am a surrogate parent. [speaker002:] So when you say you went through, what what did you go through before you embarked on on surrogacy? [speaker007:] Erm, well my particular case was cut and dry, no medical miracles, as I say, could help me because I had lost a baby at six months... during the labour and... erm... in order to save to my life I had a hysterectomy... so there was no possibility of I V F, etcetera, etcetera. Adoption was out of the question in this country... I think in Grampian region there was four babies for [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] adoption, and possibly a thousand people wanting those four babies! So it's erm... out of the question to, basically, to adopt, unless you're early twenties and have maybe perhaps eight years to wait. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Surrogacy was the last option. Erm, we went through... an enormous stressful time trying to make the decision, but in the end decided if if this is the only way then we'll we'll we'll try... it's either that or be childless... and I can't [speaker002:] And what was actually involved in your case? Did somebody else bear... er,yo your child which was the product of what [speaker007:] My husband's sperm. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker007:] At that, at, at at that time we're only talking a few years ago [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker007:] Host surrogacy, I V F surrogacy was not done in this country... erm... so we ha... we made the decision to go ahead as it was with partial surrogacy. It's either that, or... the United States, which is... erm... on a commercial basis and very expensive. So erm... the surrogate was artificially inseminated herself... erm... er, it took us seven months to achieve a pregnancy, and during this time we got to know each other very well [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] and, a relationship built up, especially between myself and the surrogate... and life was devastated when we parted... and... my daughter will always know... how much... her genetic mother loves her and how much I love her obviously. [speaker008:] It sounds to me when you talk about the misery, and I'm sure it must have been miserable, I don't doubt that for a minute, but when you talk about this misery and everything you went through, it's a wee bit like the old fashioned way, you know, everyone was saying my God, what I... went through, you know to have you! [speaker007:] You know the misery was from stems completely, entirely, hundred percent from the... the greyness of the law in this country. We were unsure as to what... what... what we should do, what we shouldn't do,wi will we contact social work, will we tell our doctor,wha how how do we do this that and the other? Erm, the surrogacy act was very ambiguous. It's from fear of what will happen, because you're doing something you're comfortable with... you're proud of... erm... a and at the same time you don't know how... erm... these authorities are going to react. That's the reason for the misery! Not between the relationship. [speaker002:] Jackie? [speaker009:] I'd just like to say that you can have two mothers and that you can two mothers quite happily, and that when you talk about... women having the right to... reproductive technology that includes single women, lesbians, not just heterosexual women. Erm, I think that it's a right that should be open to all women. [speaker002:] Ann? [speaker010:] I can totally agree with the woman here just now, what she's saying... but... the woman at the back of me just now, she'd said about lesbianism, this is a different thing entirely. For two lesbians to go and have a surrogate mother and bring that baby up is a different thing entirely! This lady here, yes! Yes, I totally agree with... what she did. [speaker007:] Yeah but I ta when I think love I mean a women to women thing but it's not erm... [LAUGHTER] lesbianism or [] [speaker010:] No, no, no! I was speaking about the lady in the back. [speaker002:] Jackie? [speaker009:] Just, yes it is, it's a very different thing, but it's still very valid. If two woman in a relationship want to have a child then there is the technology to have a child... that's their right to go ahead and have one. [speaker001:] I don't think that... erm, whatever womans sexuality doesn't erm... mean that she's not gonna be a good mother, she could be a good mother, she could, you know... just depends on the person, on the woman. [speaker002:] Th there's a whole lot of issues here about erm, how the birth mother felt and whether she has Mm mm. encouraged or put under pressure... erm, I would think that with a lot more talking we might actually be able to work out something between surrogate mothers and nurturing mothers, they can do it with open adoption, other countries were learning how to do it. I I think we're all very interested in what's been said but I'm very concerned that we're not actually talking about those silent majority of children Mm. who do not know who their genetic parents are. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] The thousands of children who are born every year, we don't even know in this country how many there are, because the figures the can't be kept, er er and these tend to be children erm born of er, anonymous donors... and and I think that as a society we are wreaking such problems for the future, we're creating secrets for families, and I would really like to hear from my fellow women here about that. Mhm. Yes? [speaker003:] It is storing up misery for children, and I also think these people went through a lot of misery to get what they wanted. It's I want! So, in the first place it's selfish, second place, or maybe the first place, it's unnatural... and who are, who are they thinking about? They want a baby... they're not concerned whether it's going to have spina-bifida... or have som, they are looking forward for a perfect baby. The result is what, ten to fifteen percent is successful, sometimes they have to go and have the thing done all over and over again. Now, my view is... it's entirely wrong... it's cheating, it's doing everything wrong! Nature intended us to be as we are, and we shouldn't tamper with reproduction. I think it's wonderful, the strives are to be made in medicine and they should make in all their research into making the people who who are here able to enjoy a good life and fulfilled life [speaker002:] Thank you. [speaker003:] and not make other... don't start reproduction. I mean, we are not a a, an endanges, endangered species! [speaker004:] Can I ask why it's storing up misery for the children? Now I'm lucky, I have four children... no problems as such, and I have great sympathy for anyone who goes through all this to have a child! If they're doing it for the right reasons, like... the lady over there, a loving couple with a child. I would go against just any woman having the right to have a child. [speaker007:] Ca an I just say one quick thing,th I I, I'd really like to reply to this lady, she said that it's it's, we're talking about I, me all the time, but and that we're selfish. Why are we more selfish, please tell me why am I more selfish than yourself or your daughter or your other... colleagues to want a child? Why am I se more selfish? [speaker003:] Well, I'm not, I just think it's selfish in going in this roundabout way and this is why you're so distressed because you know you're doing something that is wrong! [speaker007:] Oh no! I have done something which is a wonderful, wonderful thing that I'm completely comfortable with! [speaker002:] Can, can we answer this question about why, why we're stirring up misery? Jennifer, you raised the question, so you can have first shot I'd like to but I'd like to hear other views on this as well. but the people are actually er, sidetracking the issue! Mm. I didn't say that, that surrogacy was storing up trouble for the future Mhm. nor reproduc duc tu tu tology, but what I am saying is that secrets store up trouble, and when doctors are advising, er childless couples not to tell where their children come from, that is the the trouble that we're storing up. We've been through the whole thing with adoption! [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Penny? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker005:] Yeah. If you say that children have got the right to know their father does that extend to the abuser and the rapist? I mean, some people are in a [speaker001:] Yes, that's right! [speaker005:] great deal of misery because they know who their father is! [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker005:] And I think being a father means something quite different than dep, from depositing some sperm in a tube or in a woman! [speaker002:] Hann? [speaker006:] Well I'd just like to challenge the whole idea of this right of every woman to have a child! As far as I'm concerned, and I've through the whole scene of infertility, motherhood is about responsibility and privilege, it's not about rights, and it's responsibility that lasts a lifetime and it's tremendous privilege to be a mother! But that privilege maybe denied to some people because biologically they are not perfect, in the way that other people are not biologically perfect, and I don't think we can demand the right to [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] have exactly what we want in life. And if you go down that road in every area of life, I think we're storing tremendous trouble for ourselves as a society! [speaker002:] Judith? [speaker007:] Why should we refuse medical treatment to people who are suffering... medically... compared to other people who say, who need a heart transplant, or a kidney transplant? They've just as much right to have medical treatment of what is available! [speaker002:] Christine? [speaker008:] I think, I'd like to just take up the point about secrecy because I am involved in talking to couples where the, there is a basic problem of male infertility where... th the husband of the couple, or the partner of the couple is unable to father a child because he's not producing... any sperm, or not producing enough sperm... and that couple come to us for help and advice [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] they desperately want a child between them and to them a child that is born by the mother but is from a different origin than than the partner is... is the next best thing an, and most of the couples, and we don't advise them that this should all be kept secret, we leave that decision to be something that they will... erm, come to later on when the child is older, and many of these couples will decide that this child will be brought as their own biological child, and I don't really see that as being any different... than many relationships where children are conceived out of wedlock, or out, with the relationship and people make a a a decision to keep this... erm to themselves. [speaker002:] Nan? [speaker009:] I would like to hear an opinion for somebody who can't afford the twelve hundred to two thousand pound that it takes for surrogacy? [speaker002:] Well now you've brought up another er, element which is the cost of [speaker009:] They're denied the chance though aren't they? They're denied the, they're denied the [speaker002:] It's not just surrogacy, of course, that costs, I mean a a a lot of er... [speaker009:] But did it? But did the [speaker002:] a lot of [speaker009:] surrogacy cost? [speaker007:] Pardon? [speaker009:] Er, did surrogacy cost? [speaker007:] It, it depends on, on your individual circu, if your sister has a baby for you, she's unlikely to say that I would be recompensed for my loss of earnings. It's a, it's a... you know... i i can be from zero to... going to the United States which is thirty thousand pounds! [speaker001:] In fact, I was [speaker002:] Ma Mary? [speaker010:] I'd like to say I was a [speaker007:] They don't do that. [speaker010:] surrogate mother and I wasn't paid a penny for doing it! But I did it through the love,fo, that I had for the couple, and that because they had waited sixteen year before they eventually found out they couldn't have children! [speaker001:] And before they were [speaker010:] And they've now [speaker002:] And is it [speaker010:] got a seven year old child who I keep in contact with, I've got regular photographs coming, I keep into contact with er... the now the mother... and we all get on really well! [speaker002:] Was this a couple you knew? [speaker010:] I met them through an advert. Cos they advertised when... before it became illegal to advertise. [speaker002:] I bu but no money changed hands. [speaker010:] Nothing. They paid me expenses which was expenses to hospital and I think gave me about thirty pound for maternity clothing and that was it. [speaker002:] And how did you actually, I mean, did you do all this er er er, as it were in an amateur way or did you do through any kind of profe,wi with the help of doctors or [speaker010:] We were, I think, the first ones in Britain to do it... and it was all based on trust and... if we made mistakes, we made mistakes! But we got through it in the end and... their happy, and I'm happy! I mean [speaker002:] No regrets? [speaker010:] a parent, I have two other children, I've had one since then as well. I've no regrets. If I wasn't so old now I'd do it again! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Perhaps you'll er [speaker002:] Now, what do you think, what do you think of that? Yes? [speaker001:] I think we should discuss money in a, in a wider context [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] we've been talking about individuals and what they want, and we live in a context in which if people want a thing and the, and we feel that they should have the choice... particularly if they have the money... that if to, if you look at it in a wider context there are seven million children living on the streets in Brazil! Part of the reason that they're living on the streets is because of the financing of a foreign debt. There are women who are being dragged out of their houses in the middle of the night to have forced abortion! There are children starving all over the world! Now th er er... these facts are not unrelated. [speaker002:] Well I feel erm... really that we should have a little bit more compassion amongst ourselves as women and... when I had my first child... I had a very good friend who went through the pregnancy with me who is waiting for a child to arrive by adoption, and she had the baby a couple of months after I had my baby. And, at that time I realized what my friend had gone through, and I knew what I had gone through, and I would willingly have gone on having babies for... erm... out of compassion for people who couldn't have children... and [LAUGHTER] I would have done it much more naturally! I would have used my husband []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And... and I, because er, I enjoy being pregnant, but I don't enjoy too much bringing up babies [LAUGHTER] I would be ve ve very happy to to have born [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] children because I was very happy, and very healthy... and I would have liked, loved to have shared that with with the lady over there! Yes? Up there? [speaker003:] Erm, I'd like to go back to some of the comments that were [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] made earlier on about... erm... women approving of one woman doing one thing, and not approving another woman doing another. Erm, I would like to know who is setting the controls [speaker001:] Yes! [speaker003:] erm, on women's reproduction? Erm, and on what values are they based? Because, I approve lesbian mothers, I approve of single women having children, I also approve of surrogacy, my concerns are about the technology side, who's controlling it and what's, what are women's bodies being used for? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] And... you know, I don't want to enforce my morals onto someone else, or my ethics, and I really would like to ask people don't try and do that to other women either! [speaker002:] Who, who does decide who is eligible for... erm... whatever reproductive te, technology? I mean, is it... is it harder for for single women, for lesbian women to get access to the available technology, what experience does anyone have? Yes? [speaker004:] Well, nowadays, since they brought out the new law I think lesbian women and single women are being discriminated against because they see there's some... erm... mythical er need for there to be a father figure around. [speaker002:] And so you sa, you don't think that's fair? [speaker005:] No. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] It's difficult enough... for, for married couples and er... for couples, so I mean it must be very difficult for for single and lesbian women. [speaker002:] Iza? [speaker007:] We're all discussing the rights of women [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker007:] lesbians, any women to have a child... and, I'm just wondering how many of us are... thinking about the rights of, of the child? It surely is th the cha, a childre, a childs right to be conceived within the family... background and a loving relationship between a husband and wife! [speaker008:] Well I'm a single parent and I was left pregnant by my... my boyfriend, I didn't have a choice in the matter of having... I was quite happy, I was in love, I was quite happy, but I left, on my own, with a child... so where does that leave me? You know, I'm bringing up the child the best I can, she has plenty of love... I love her very much! She's quite happy. So, you know, it's not everybody that has... a loving relationship behind them. [speaker007:] Well I think it's it's up to the... people... your... the extended family to support people in your... position... who do have a child like that. I have several... friends and relatives who are in that... position, two who have been left by a husband... and it's absolutely not ideal for a child... but... compensation can be made by a loving relationship with... extended family. [speaker002:] Susie? [speaker008:] Hardly! [speaker009:] There are, there are other ways to come by children, erm... I have a relationship with a man who has three children... erm he's been married, he's divorced, separated, and I don't feel that I'm replacing the children's own mother, I feel like I'm... not even stepmother, I'm just their friend, get on very well with them, and we we share... I share mothering, if you like, with their own mother... whom they see. Erm [speaker002:] So you did feel a great urge to to conceive or bear a child yourself? [speaker009:] No, I mean, strangely enough that was one of the things that almost put me off the relationship in the first place because I'd never had any desire to be a mother. And yet, when I met them I thought these are not... children that I have to think of as children, they're people... and they're fascinating! [speaker002:] Carole? [speaker010:] I was just going to say that the... the the social stigma already attached to... erm unmarried mothers [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] and so a woman having a child on her own without a partner... I think that's... that's the biggest fear that th erm that society sees in artificial insemination of any kind. [speaker001:] Surely it's part of the whole socialization process of women. I mean [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker001:] we are trained from a very early age that fundamental of femaleness is... is reproductive capability... and if we don't carry out that reproductive capability... we'd lose part of our identity. I don't personally believe that, but I think that's what... is forced upon us by society. I'd like to make another general point [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] because it's come out a lot in this discussion... that is there's a big gap between the biological, biological and medical knowledge that's accrued in the last ten or fifteen years, and the actual social consequences of these developments... and there hasn't been enough discussion and consideration of what will happen. Now, I don't subscribe to the slippery slope view [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] that... you know... what, we're go going to be overwhelmed by these erm... changes in, in technology, if you like... but I do feel that there is a need to discuss changes in relationships in society, you know, what happens when your grandmother's actually your mother as well! [speaker002:] Barbara, you wanted in? Yes, what concerns me a bit about surrogacy is... someone was saying earlier that people will pay for what they want, but what if what comes isn't what they want? Mm. If a child is born with a disability and the parents then don't want it. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] What happens to the child? What right does that child have? Up there. [speaker003:] Yeah, I think people feel uneasy about the whole subject of surrogacy because we know that sometimes rich women have paid poor women... er, for surrogacy or adoption... and I think we want that choice to be a free one, in which case we have to raise their material circumstances so no one is forced... to sell their baby, just as no one should be forced to sell, you know, their blood! [speaker004:] Well, I'm the mother of test tube twins. I was successful at having them. There's an awful lot of females who go through the programme and get nowhere or have unsuccessful attempts. Erm... these babies are longed for! Loved! When it does happen, which is about fifteen, twenty percent there is a successful... well, pregnancy baby at the end of it. I mean, I really I can't see why they're gonna be treated any different? [speaker001:] No, but they can! [speaker002:] Jan? [speaker005:] That was my point exactly, if people go through so much hassle to... to have a baby, then surely there's gonna be less chance of... abusing... all that kind of trouble within the family? They've gone through so much. [speaker006:] Yes. I'd like to say I'm one of those people who waited seven years to have my daughter, who's now eight by the way, but I mean erm... I was one of those people when I heard about IV coming in I thought this was a great thing! But my doctor was under the procession, oh yo you've you've plenty of time yet, you've years to come... because of all this idea of how much it was going to cost to go on to do other [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] things or to find out whether you were capable of having children or not. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker006:] But what I do object to is erm... virgin mothers coming along who think that, why shouldn't they use a man? If they so desperately want a child why shouldn't they for one occasion, if they are lesbian or whatever, use a man for that occasion... and let the women who have a family, and who want a child and can't have them... use this IV programme which is marvellous! It's just so expensive it's ridiculous! [speaker002:] Mhm. Mhm. [speaker007:] I certainly think there needs to be more discourse, particularly... amongst women, lay women and professional women, women who are involved in reproduction. Because I think it's ironic a lot of what's come out of this discussion tonight is that... we're actually considering relationships which are treasons, fundamentals [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] parenthood, for example yo... before the capabilities of reproductive technology became available... nobody sat down and questioned whether we had a right to have children or not, whether it was a responsibility, a right or whatever, I mean... it's it's very ironic that... we've actually thrown ourselves into a realm where we have to consider all these fundamental things about human behaviour and human nature [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] in a way, so that we can plan for the future so that we can make contingencies for... changing relationships with people, the effects of these things on children in the future. [speaker002:] Let's [speaker007:] And I think much more discourse is required. [speaker002:] Let me put one final... er, question to the vote, well it's, ninety two of you said you welcomed... advances in reproductive technology... se se several people have said that they don't think women, every woman has a right to have a child. So let me put that vote to the hundred, do you think every woman has a right to have a child, or to try to have a child? Button one for yes, and button two for no. [sigh]. And you'll be interested to hear that sixty nine of you said yes, and thirty one of you said no. Now isn't that an anonimous vote compared with the first one? Any final comments on that? Up there. [speaker008:] Erm... I support I V F treatment... and I sympathize with the people that can't have children... erm but my concern would be with the childrens' right. I think it's a privilege to have children, it's a tremendous duty... but I'm concerned about the children. [speaker001:] Now, you're! [speaker002:] On which note we have to leave it, I'm really sorry because we've run out of time. Thank you everybody who spoke, I'm sorry to those who didn't manage to fit in. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye.

[speaker001:] Four legs good! Two legs bad! Unless you're a chicken, or to put it boldly, animals have rights too! But exactly what rights do they have? And does supporting animal rights justify violence? [introduction music] [speaker002:] The animal rights lobby is a forceful one... by various means, some legal, some not, some specific, some violent. Campaigners seek to convince the unconverted that animals deserve a better deal! Which animals? And what's the better deal? Let's find out. And let's start with a basic question, here in this nation of animal lovers, do you think animals deserve a better deal? Some animals? All animals? Any animals? Do they deserve a better deal? Button one for yes, and button two for no. This is a descriptive vote because this hundred er... women are not a representative cross section of the whole of Scotland... they're invited to come from various places... and ninety six of them think that animals deserve a better deal. When you said yes to that which animals did you mean? And what were you talking about? Yes? [speaker003:] I think, a lot of people... see the stray dogs problem as a big problem, certainly if people have decided to... partake of pets, they have a responsibility to look after them and not throw them out on the streets. [speaker002:] Okay so [speaker003:] And I think problems like that... are due to human irresponsibility! So those animals do have a raw deal! [speaker002:] Okay, that's one area. Who else said yes, and why? Up, yes? [speaker004:] I think animals that are used for human entertainment definitely deserve a better deal, for example, large wi wild animals that are used in circuses, we haven't got the right, as people, to say that they're here for our entertainment. [speaker002:] What would that better deal be in that case? [speaker004:] The better deal would be, not being transported up and down the country, and not being made to perform tricks that are... un... unnatural to their own... behaviour patterns. [speaker002:] Aha. Aha. Any other views? Yes? [speaker005:] I think that er... concern should also spread to animals that are hunted pleasure as well, i.e. the stags, deer, foxes, hares, I mean, there's there's quite a considerable list that's all done for entertainment. [speaker002:] Mhm. Now the better deal there presumably would involve [speaker005:] Not chasing them at all! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] not hunting them at all? [speaker005:] No! I mean [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker005:] let them live their lives in peace without the harassment of chasing them with dogs and... supporters and what have you! [speaker002:] Okay. Any others... that, yes? [speaker006:] I don't think animals should be ta, used to be tested for cosmetics [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] perfumes or... detergents [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] different things like that. [speaker002:] What about medical research? [speaker006:] Well, there again, yes, with reservations... because if it comes to the fact that if it's going to save human lives, yes. [speaker007:] Yes, and you get all the animals who are experimented on and you sa... there's not a week that comes out and you don't an... a report saying, oh well this this, this causes cancer in rats or... and you, imagine the amount, the huge amounts of... the sub, whatever substance it is that had been given to rats to cause the cancer, and there's no... knowing that the amount that's gonna be given to rats... causing cancer, will give cancer to humans! I mean,i it's just absolutely ridiculous! [speaker008:] I'm a trustee for the beauty without cruelty charity [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] and we would like to see an end to all experiments on animals, for cosmetics, toiletry, household product... purposes. [speaker002:] Hasn't that campaign been going for [speaker008:] Oh many, many years! [speaker002:] a long time? [speaker008:] Yes! And we're making progress now. [speaker002:] How? [speaker008:] There are already many alternatives to the research carried out on animals which has been going on for a long time. Erm... for example, you can grow human skin in a, in a cell culture and use that as a, as a testing er, medium [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] instead of a live animal. We can... it can use erm... a si similar substance for eye tests... erm, to test... to replace the Jeyes eye test [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] which again has been used for a long time on animals. These tests are very misleading. They don't protect bu su er, er the public, they protect the people who are actually manufacturing the products. [speaker002:] Now... do you think that the campaign th the th, the campaigns against the use in cosmetic testing had anything to do with the changes that were brought in, or do you think advances and responsible er... science would have, would have made those changes anyway? [speaker008:] I think inevitably,th the changes would have come because the, the alternatives are better. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] They are less misleading. Ah, but I think the campaign, the public campaign and the pressure that's been put on companies have definitely made quite a, quite a difference. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] While I agree that there is absolutely no justification for testing for cosmetic purposes at all! Absolutely [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker009:] none! I think we would have advanced to the stage we are at had we not used animals in the earlier stages for medical research. We're advancing all the time and I think there may came a time we won't use animals at all for medical research, but at, up till now we needed to use animals for medical research. [speaker010:] I think you've got to be realistic about this whole issue, that... er, obviously seeing the poor furry little bunny suffering for cosmetics! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] Yes! I agree, that is wrong! But, if a test on a chimpanzee would save my child's life I'm afraid I'd go for the test on the chimpanzee. [speaker002:] Okay. Yes? [speaker001:] Erm I... I think that one of the erm, drawbacks in using animals for any kind of testing is that it sort of precludes in some way using alternatives. And I think that, you know people who, they may be trained when they're a... studying to [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] use animals, and then go onto to work using animals, and erm... you know, if maybe alternative techniques were introduced at an earlier stage, maybe in their training, they'd be more likely to them on board. But, it's almost like it's... the established pattern to use animals to test [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] all sorts of things, and it's gonna take quite a big shifty to get out of that. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes? I agree with what that lady's just said. What I find horrible is that... there are so many organisations or... or places all over Great Britain, they're all doing the same sort of tests! Can't we... collate our knowledge so that not so many tests are having to be done on all these animals? Yes? [speaker003:] Yes. Erm, being with the S S P C A, I have seen a lot of very sad pictures of animals, but one of the saddest photographs I saw, quite recently was... two monkeys, well they're primates, we are [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] part of that family too, and they were in a lab awaiting experimentation and they were... in cages side by side and they'd stretched their arms out and were holding hands, almost as though, to give each other comfort. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] Monkeys feel pain. They feel happiness, sadness... and they also have a sense of humour. [speaker004:] Under the nineteen eighty six act [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] they have stated that all use of animals must be justified and it very carefully policed by the Home Office, as well as locally. I mean, it's it's... vets etcetera [speaker002:] Yeah. Yep. [speaker004:] are always present in research establishments to ensure... the well being of the animals, and very often there is actually no pain... involved in the research. [speaker002:] How, how do you know that? [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] Well I was told by somebody who's involved in animal [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] research! [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] But er, frequently the animals are used... for the research and there's no pain involved at that time and they are killed humanly before the research actually takes place. [speaker002:] But do we find it acceptable that animals should be used, however painless the event. [speaker004:] Well I would rather use an animal any time that my own child! [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker005:] Er, Switzerland is one country that has banned the use of animals for research, and I think we ought to be going along these lines... that, if animals have rights we ought not to be using them for experimentation. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] And if we were to ban the the process,th erm... we would devise other means for research, would, we would find alternatives. [speaker002:] There. [speaker006:] Th there'll, there'll quickly move it somewhere where we can do it. It's quite [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] alright, they move it out of Switzerland... but if we can't have it here we'll have it in Pakistan or somewhere... where they want the money! So it won't make any difference... in that [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] respect. [speaker007:] I do not think that research has gone as fast as it should! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] And it's going to be a long time before it's going to be possible, so therefore we still have to use animals, I... see no way round it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] And I know that they're using cultures and things but... I still think that we are... a long way from not using animals. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker008:] Erm... can I, can I move this conversation on to the [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] th th the, the veterinary side? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] Erm, we've we've covered the fact that animal models don't always reflect the human situation, but if we're going to understand control and eradicate disease in animals, this sort of work must go on. [speaker009:] Could I go back to something the lady here [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker009:] said about the Animal Procedures Act of nineteen eighty six, erm, I know she's been told about the animals are killed painlessly and that they suffer very little pain, where there's any pain at all, but in fact this act erm which is governed by a committee... only erm... issues guidelines as to what might happen. No matter how serious an infringement there might be of that act... they are not subject to any sort of criminal offence. [speaker002:] Sh shall we try and see what the er, what the general feeling on this is? Do you think that er... the use of animals in research is ever justified? Er, button one for yes, and button two for no. Research there being either on behalf of animals themselves, or on behalf of er, of humans. Is research on er, the use of animals in research ever justified? And this particular hundred are creeping in with their votes but have decided, seventy fo seventy seven of them say yes, all be it th th th, by far the majority, and twenty three say no. Could anyone say what the consequences would be if they weren't available for use in er... in the development of human... er... medicines and treatment? [speaker010:] Well I wouldn't be here because a horse was used for a toxin to provide the anti-toxin for diphtheria... whe, in my days when I was younger there was no toxins as such, vaccination as such and so therefore the horses... were used... for research... to provide the anti-toxins. [speaker002:] So do you think people who would like to ban the use of animals in research are in, are in cloud cuckoo land do you? [speaker010:] Yes? [speaker002:] Would any of you twenty three like to defend your position? Yes? [speaker001:] Erm, I'm just not sure why any... any person would think that they have more right to life than animals do. I mean what... what gives you more right to life than an animal does? [speaker002:] Anyone wa [speaker001:] Just because we have, a so called civilized nation that we live in... that destroys the world, that destroys animals... that destroys the environment we're living in! You know, where's our right to life come from? [speaker002:] I think you can far too sentimental about it! Erm... humans are more important than animals, you you cannot gi equate an animal life with human life. We are the intelligent order. Being intelligent, we hope we won't be cruel to animals, but you can't say that we are, animals are just as important as humans. Mhm. [speaker001:] Wha, why do you think we are more intelligent than animals? [speaker002:] Well, for a start [speaker001:] You know, because we can have television [speaker002:] we could [speaker001:] studios? [speaker002:] No! We can reason with each other, animals don't reason with [speaker001:] But [speaker002:] other. We have conversations, animals don't have conversations! [speaker001:] We are, we are living in a world, we are living in a world where constantly there's violence, does that happen in the animal world! [speaker002:] Yes of course it does! [speaker003:] Of course it does! [speaker002:] Of course it does! [speaker001:] To the same extent? [speaker003:] They're horrible! [speaker002:] Animals are terribly cruel to each other! [speaker001:] N no well [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] I can't accept that! [speaker004:] Surely if intelligence is the answer, you know, what about mentally handicapped children? They're, they're not intelligent, does that mean they're just the same as animals? If intelligence is the criteria, then an awful lot of us in this room would be used as test animals! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] We have a choice if we want to be involved in research [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] whereas animals don't! They have no [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] choice, they have no say. [speaker002:] Mhm. There, yes? [speaker006:] How do you know that erm... animals don't reason? Like, how do you know what goes on, like with, dolphins, with whales, with all sorts of species of animals, like we don't know, well we're so dense we can only see things like this! We don't know what goes on there, we've got no right to interfere with their lives! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] I think, I think we're overlooking one erm [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] great power that the individual has, instead of being ing, indignant... about erm, our views on animals in research, we could quite simply exercise our power, not to buy the products, to ask questions of our [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker007:] of our doctors what kind of drug it is? What research goes behind it? Do to exercise our individual intelligence to examine the facts on no, on the basis of our own conscience, individually to make a decision, and we can all do that! We can buy a different type of product. And there are many [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] companies now... erm which quite obviously assert that fact, on the doorways of chemists for instance, they do not test on animals. [speaker002:] So you're saying the consumer pressure could could change things? [speaker007:] Mhm. It it it's every effective measure [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] of stopping erm, a certain product... it simply will go out of production. [speaker008:] I would disagree that er, humans aren't used in experiments because I think that we're all being used at various [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] points in our lives, for experiments, medical or otherwise. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] And erm... a, a lot of the medicines that are passed... er have been passed to a certain degree and then th th the... we become the the animal. [speaker002:] Are you speaking as a, as an experienced guinea pig yourself? [speaker008:] Well I'm a diabetic... erm [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] so to a certain extent th the human that was introduced in the last few [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] years has has... is an experiment. [speaker002:] How do you feel about that? [speaker008:] I, don't mind being used as a guinea pig because I feel that it'll help people in the future. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker009:] I believe that we have been given the right to have dominion over animals. The point I would like to put over is, I've listened to one or two erm, radio programmes, and television programmes about this and I personally would like to have more evidence of what actually happens to the animals. I don't think us... er er... public people really realize what is going on and I think then they would maybe stand up and be [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] and be counted, but I think we've tended to stand back and just say... well we know it's going on but what is actually being... done to these [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] animals? [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] Yes, we... that lady over said there were guidelines, there were people that go in and inspect, but there are not enough, it is a known fact, that there are not enough people to go and inspect all the establishments where animal... erm, experimentations are taking place... and, I love animals, and alright, yes,yo you can do ex, some experiments on animals but let's not be cruel! That lady up there said that we have experiments, I'm sure, human [LAUGHTER] experiments [], you know, experiments, sorry, on human people [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] but, on human beings, but we're not put through the state that animals are! We [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] don't have great lumps made to grown on us, we don't go through she, severe pain. And, which company was it that says, to... do something about pain... you first have to create it. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] Ah, I mean that's terrible! [speaker001:] I was responsible for researching into the, so called cruelty free products for beauty without cruelty, and it was a real can of worms! I was [speaker002:] Yep! [speaker001:] I was sorry I got involved in it at one point! Erm... cosmetic companies are very devious! It's what they don't tell you that's important. Erm, there is a big problem at the moment with cosmetic labelling, for example, erm just exactly what does cruelty free mean? What does against animal testing mean? These are the kind of things that are actually on cosmetic products. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] It could mean, erm, against animal testing but I go along with it anyway. It could mean erm... cruelty free, er erm who de defines in that case, what cruelty is? Er, not, not tested on animals might mean, by me... by but by someone else! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] And it all sells products! And, beauty without cruelty has been involved recently in having er, trying to put forward an E C... erm, directive on th... er, the labelling of cosmetics, but it's very, very difficult! And, mainly because of those kind of problems. [speaker002:] Yeah. Yep. [speaker001:] What do you mean by... erm, not tested on animals? The finished product? The ingredient? Ingredients are tested for other reasons too... not necessarily just for the cosmetic and toiletry trade. [speaker002:] I think that one of the outstanding erm... criticisms that I would make... of the whole programme, in research with animals, is the fact that only two licences have been revoked I think you said Mhm. on... now, I think it's a bit like factory inspectors, and I talk from experience on this, er... th o i me, everything gets cleaned up before the inspectors Mhm. arrive! If you report something you always get the same reply, nothing wrong when we went round! Mm. I'd like to move with th er, I I think tha wi given wi, though we haven't got all that much time, can we move onto another area that was brought up at the beginning of the programme which was erm... the use of animals in recreation and er... Lisa particularly mentioned hunting, now, she thinks hunting should be banned, do you? Do you think hunting animals should be banned? Various animals that... hunted in this country, foxes, in some places deer, hares are coursed er in some places. Well well! There's an interesting result! Seventy nine of you think yes, hunting should be banned. For the minority, twenty one say, no. Would any of those twenty one feel brave enough to say why they said no? Yes? [speaker003:] Well I I so, should er... be unhappy to see the, the the red-coated huntsmen... a an abolished scenario. But, erm... I think they could instead have... an electric fox, if there's such a thing? Or, a drag... and there's no need to interfere with the fox at all. [speaker002:] Okay. Yes? [speaker004:] They say that hunting's for er... er human pleasure, er, I mean personally I've only been to one hunt, and I don't see what all the... the, the, the, the trouble's about because the huntsman is only a spectator, it's the hounds that are hunting the fox and it is to keep the foxes down. What's better than, gassing, shooting, poisoning? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] What's more humane? [speaker002:] So you think hunting's fair enough? [speaker004:] From my point of view, yeah. [speaker002:] Yes? Beside you. [speaker005:] Yes, I I would have to, I'd have to disagree with er, my colleague here. Erm, I, it's not the... shooting is, most certainly, as long as it's with a... a qualified marksman [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] it's most [speaker004:] Mhm. [speaker005:] definitely less cruel than hunting... because the animal is chased and er, what it's heart is doing while it's being chased and it's, really is... the idea's quite horrendous to me! And actually, hunting doesn't kill all that many foxes, a a hunt probably erm, kills one an, at a meet... if they're lucky. [speaker002:] But hunting does maintain jobs, and countryside people often say. Would anyone like [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] to talk to, to to that? Yes? [speaker006:] Well coming from a rural community erm... hunting and shooting and fishing are very important to the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] economy of the community... and to have suburbia creeping in and trying to dictate to what has been [LAUGHTER] the foundation of the [] of their economy, for many, many years is... almost ridiculous! [speaker002:] Mhm. Down there. [speaker007:] I think the idea of taking a fox and having it ripped apart legitimized by our society is a bad message to pass onto our children! When children nowadays are becoming more responsible to our society, and they see us as one world... we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our world, and that includes the animals in it. [speaker002:] The seventy nine of you who voted for banning hunting,a are you all townees, do you not understand th the fabric of er, of the country? Do you have an alternative to offer that would er, that would sustain that fabric? Yes? [speaker008:] I live in the country, I live in the heart of the country right next to a sheep farm, and there's no co, no message at all from the farmer that... foxes are a pest... it's a misnomer put about by the hunt. Fox hunting was started, two hundred, three hundred years ago by the aristocracy because there wasn't enough deer, because the fo the forests were getting obliterated by the same pi, the same people, it was started as an entertainment, it's an entertainment now! And now the hunt are turning round and they're lying about what they're doing, they're saying it's pest control, they're saying, we do it, it's quick, it's a sharp nip in the back of the neck. It's not! The hunt encourages foxes into their land... they actually build artificial earths, we saw one of Saturday when we were out protesting, the ar, they encourage foxes onto the land so they can hunt them. A hunt is no good without foxes. They don't want foxes [speaker001:] Alright. [speaker008:] to be depleted at any way, they encourage them! [speaker002:] So you actually go out and do something about [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker002:] your your your er... your feelings? Wha what do you do as a protester? [speaker008:] We actually, I'm actually er, in the Scottish Action Against Blood Sports [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] and we do many things, we write to MP's, we write to councils trying to get them banned off the land, and we've been very successful. We've actually helped stop the... oldest hunt in Scotland, in Li Lithgo in Stirlingshire, which ended last year. We were very successful then and we've now... progressed. We go out every single Saturday, weekdays if we can, and we try and stop the... stop the fo, hounds killing the foxes [speaker002:] So [speaker008:] peacefully. [speaker002:] so so you're proud of having stopped the oldest hunt in, in Scotland? [speaker008:] Very! [speaker002:] Right. [speaker009:] I'd like to disagree with that. [speaker002:] Ah. [speaker009:] I'm an ex-master's wife from Lithgo in Stirlingshire hunt, and we had to stop because erm... the country was disappearing underneath us. We had a new [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] town built in our country with two motorways, and the towns have all expanded to great extent and that was why we had to give up, it was nothing to do with our friends the... saboteurs. [speaker002:] It was creeping suburbia then, it wasn't [speaker009:] Creeping suburbia. [speaker002:] So wha [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker002:] what do you do now with the, what do the old... the old hunt's people do? [speaker009:] Well we've, we just have to er, grin and bear it. There is nowhere else to go for us. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker010:] I would like to ask the saboteurs how they can justify... the fact that they ill-treat hounds and horses? Now I personally have had a horse actually had things thrown at it by saboteurs! I feel this is cruelty to horses. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] That's, that's just absolutely rubbish! I mean we don't [speaker002:] Well you [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] can't, you can't [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] like er, you can't say that she might have something thrown at her horse cos maybe you weren't there and maybe [speaker008:] Generally speaking [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] erm, I mean... people who spend their entire Saturday doing something that they, I mean, I don't enjoy going out every Saturday! I mean, I'd like to do the things that, my hobbies, but I go out there because I care and I see that I feel that it's necessary to, to actually stop these people tormenting an animal for fun... and if I'm that concerned about animals, I'm not gonna stoop to... to hurt a horse, or... or the hounds! I mean I ride myself, I have dogs myself, I mean, it's just another excuse from the hunting fraternity, turn it round, blame the cruelty on the saboteurs when really... there wouldn't be any saboteurs if there weren't people to kill foxes purely for fun! [speaker002:] Do you want to come back on that? [speaker010:] Yes. Erm we ha, we have had horses and hounds and damaged but apart from that I would ask the speaker... who i, what [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] or who is the fox's predator? After all, the mouse has a cat, so what is the fox's predator? [speaker008:] Do you know much about fox ecology? [speaker010:] Yes. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Mm mm []. [speaker008:] Have you ever, ever looked into [speaker010:] I'm willing, I'm willing to listen to you! [speaker008:] well the, I think these people who concern themselves very much about dictating the do's and don't of fox hunting, if they were to spend a little more time about looking into the research of, how foxes actually live. Three hundred thousand foxes are killed annually in this country, either through hunting, which only attributes to a small two point percent, shooting, gassing, snaring, all of which happen during the hunting season as well. So I mean, these foxes are still widespread and abundant, they can sustain seventy percent losses, so what human intervention are you doing? I mean... [LAUGHTER] ha []... how can you say that killing fifteen thousand foxes a year is helping to control foxes? [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker001:] I hunt regularly [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] because I breed racehorses, I also am a farmer... so I wear two hats, but I've actually seen foxes sit down we move the... hounds move in,si sit down and scratch in the middle of a field, and then they think ah! Right we're off! But, in fact from a farmer's point of view they are a su a nuisance, we have a man who co, who supposedly raises pheasants, he traps them, he also trapped my dog and this is him... ah, justified, his justification was... there were too many foxes. Erm. and so therefore, we don't particularly pretend that they are [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] that hunting justifies the... the end of killing foxes... but it does preserve country life. [speaker002:] We're going to have to close, alas, because it's been very interesting, and er er er a very diverse, ninety six people think animals should have a better deal, seventy seven think that the use of animals in research is justified at ti, from time to time, and well over seventy [speaker001:] Except. [speaker002:] think that hunting should be banned. And, my final question to you, just out of curiosity is, are you ve, a vegetarian? Button one for yes, button two for no. I could of said do you eat animals, but I decided that would be insensitive, to those of you who [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] are vegetarians. So, in this, very animal loving assembly, I think er, you would agree... er, only twenty one are vegetarians and seventy nine people love animals but they also enjoy... chewing on them from time to time. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Wo would er any of you animal eaters like to say something about that position? Yes? [speaker003:] Yes, I would [speaker002:] As, as an S S P C A representative. [speaker003:] and and also as a farmer, if I [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] might say, I'm a beef farmer, erm I enjoy my, my beef very much, my philosophy is... that erm, if we're going to use animals we're going to eat the, their time here should be as humane, they should have as humane treatment as possible, and they should be free from fear, hunger and pain, and when the time comes for them to go they should know... as little about it as possible. [speaker001:] Yes, but they never do! [speaker002:] You might say that about the human animal really, mightn't you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Yes [speaker002:] Thank you all very much for a civilized and interesting discussion. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Scottish women have spent a great deal of time discussing the pros and cons of being an older women, but what's it like being young in Scotland in nineteen ninety two? [introduction music] [speaker002:] Everyone here was born after nineteen sixty eight, the year of revolution according to someone. The sixties were in full swing and we all lived, whether we like it or not, in a permissive society. So here we are, the children of the revolution, what do they think of the world, of the Scotland that they live in? That's what we'll discover tonight, and let's start with a question, a pretty straightforward one. Are you enjoying life at the moment? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, the majority, eighty three say yes! Why? [sigh] Who said yes, and what are enjoying about it? Yes? [speaker003:] That fact that in,a two years time I can go on to do the subjects that I want to do at the University in Scotland of my choice. I will be able to do what and, law which is what I want, and I'll be able to practice it in Scotland... erm, which is something that I think's really, really good! [speaker002:] Okay. Any more yes's? Why? Why are you enjoying life? Or are they all private reasons? Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] No, I've got another couple of years and then I'll be able to do what I like, when I like, with no parents on my back! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] Do you know, what about the no's? Who said no? Why aren't you enjoying life? Yep? [speaker005:] I still don't think there's enough sexual equality because erm, a couple of years ago I studied mechanics, and when I left college I found it very, very difficult to get on a mechanics course so I'm back again doing computing to try and get a job. [speaker002:] Would you prefer to be a mechanic? [speaker005:] Yeah, I would have in the first place, but it was just... impossible! You know, nobody wants to take on a girl! [speaker002:] Seriously? [speaker005:] Yeah, honestly! [speaker002:] What about the computing? I mean, is that gonna be easier? [speaker005:] Oh I like, [LAUGHTER] yeah, I like ma [], you know computing but I would, I preferred mechanics. [speaker002:] Yeah. What about th er, gender equality? I mean, er er has anybody else had a similar experience? [speaker006:] I think it's actually got better. I'm a second year... civil engineering student [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] at the moment, and I think I would be... some people would... not have let me do that, I think, in the past [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] but at the moment most of the people I know are saying, go for it! [speaker002:] Mm. But do you think you'll get a job as a civil engineer at the end of it? [speaker006:] Yeah! [speaker002:] Yeah. Yes? [speaker007:] I was doing veterinary for two years... and... I wrote away to companies but they just weren't all that keen to ge give girls a chance. [speaker002:] Is that a common experience? Yes? [speaker008:] I'm actually a journalist, erm [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] I work in a newspaper that used to be male dominated and now... I would say three quarters of the wo, three quarters of the people on the news desk are now women. Erm, doors are opening, slowly, [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] but they are opening for women now. [speaker002:] What difference do you think it makes that three quarters of the news desk are women? [speaker008:] Well it makes, it makes a difference in the content, it makes a difference in the topics that we cover, that we're interested in. Erm, women don't just want to write about knitting, erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] baking... which [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] one journalist, one famous Scottish journalist told me... when I wo, when I, when I had ambitions to be a journalists, oh don't go into journalism because you're a women and all you'll get to write about is fashion! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] But that is not the case, it's not the case. [speaker002:] Do you think readers notice the difference? [speaker008:] Yes. Aha, I do. We [speaker002:] Why? [speaker008:] I mean we get enough letters about the, the, the pieces that our women write. [speaker002:] Yeah. Up there. [speaker009:] Well I'm doing a one year course for drama and media performance and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] like... years gone past it's always been... male dominated but... this year, there's actually more girls taking it up. None of these males... and, I found like, the tutor, he's a male, and he is really bad about... females being actors! He, he picks on us to say how determined we are to actually go into the profession because he knows... that er, although there are more parts for females there it's harder for... somebody to stand out. [speaker002:] Mm. Mm. So although th th the equality of opportunity may be there the attitudes maybe haven't changed that much, or have they? What do you think? Yes? [speaker010:] Well I think... if you look at the main jobs in Britain, all the managers are... male, and I think it's, it's gonna change when we do have females and males in all these... erm, these jobs that are managing the main N H S, social work [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] all things like that. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker001:] Erm sorry, just to come back, er I work for an amateur theatre company [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker001:] and really, I mean... you know, you can talk about male, female bias as much as you like but there's an awful of actresses, and not, you know, a lot fewer actors and a lot better parts for men. And it's something which is difficult to cope with, but I work in a kind of environment where... it just is sexually biased, that's the way it goes! It's not... something that can be changed, like maybe management... but erm... it's it's just that, you know, to be careful, that if you're doing these things, there's some things which, I think women can do, and a lot of things that women should be doing, maybe there's other things which just aren't there for them just now. [speaker002:] The thing we've all got to concentrate on, is the opportunity should be there, and they should be there for us Mm. to do it, and it starts a lot earlier, it starts when you're at school and the fact that... that women are told that you can do, like home economics an, and sewing and all that, and then they're not encouraged to go into engineering courses. And if that's gonna happen then how are women gonna be able to get on into higher education Mm. and how are they gonna be able to get the jobs? The equality of opportunity and equal pay for work of equal value and all those things are... are are are issues which er... have been fought over for the last twenty years. Now can I ask a self-indulgent question, I mean, how well do you think the women, ten, and twenty, and thirty years older than you have done... in, in achieving a better deal for women your age? Up there? [speaker003:] Well I was given a really big chance... a while ago, it was by a single parent who was an editor of the community newspaper, I'm now the business and production manager, I'm a single parent, my wee boy's three. She lets me take time off, I mean she's really understanding. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] I think that's what we need is more understanding bosses. [speaker002:] But it was a women helping you? [speaker003:] Mhm. [speaker002:] That's a now I've had that experience. May I ask you a, a voting question actually on that? I wonder what you think? Do you think at the moment women have equal opportunities in Scotland? Do women have equal opportunities in Scotland? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And you'd be interested to know that eighty one of you say no! The nineteen who said yes, where are you and why did you vote yes, there? Who said yes? Yes? [speaker004:] I don't think I've ever come up against sexism, except from in the classroom when the teacher to, the economics teacher tries to wind us up by saying women would should be chained to the kitchen sink! But otherwise [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I've had all the opportunities I would want. [speaker002:] Okay. Any other yes's? Or do you think she's got something to... to find out later on? Yes? [speaker005:] I think there's always exceptions, but I think... you've got to believe in yourself and go and do what you want to do... and if you're saying there's... opposition, there's gonna be more opposition, if [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] you've seen it there. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] I know there is exceptions. [speaker002:] So it's not that you couldn't fe it's, it was it was actually you who weren't able to find the thing, rather than the thing wasn't available for you, that's the suggestion? [speaker005:] No because, I applied for a lot of jobs [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker005:] and I was better qualified than a lot of... guys in my class and yet they left college and got a job right away! And, I applied for loads of jobs and... nothing ever came back. [speaker002:] Okay. Let me ask you another question, or looking, looking towards the future. Do you know what you're going to be doing in five years time? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And... thirty five of you say yes, sixty five no. The sixty five who said no does it worry you that you don't know or is that quite exciting that you don't know what you're going to be doing? Yes? [speaker006:] I think, as a student I don't know what I'm gonna do and with the present... erm grant system and bursary system it's it's even more frightening because es especially towards women, it does discriminate against women and that's why less women are going into higher education [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] or further education. And with the whole child care... side of things as well, it is frightening! [speaker002:] As a, as a student are you managing to cope with er, very limited finances or [speaker007:] Well, I'm the women's officer in my college and I [speaker002:] Right. [speaker007:] this is what I'm fighting for, I'm fighting for equal rights, and I'm fighting to get more women into... further education cos I think it's... it's a very basic that we all need to go into... and it's hard, and the openings aren't there women to go into, you've got to fight for it, yeah! [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] Erm, my mother calls me the eternal student because I tell her that there's absolutely no way I'm gonna look for full time employment! But, now that, I mean I'm in the second year of being a student, and... I took on the position of women's officer for the we, for the west of Scotland area [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] and... I just don't want to move out of being a student because I find that, that more and more problems are, you know I'm coming up with because, like Melanie saying there is problems with child care, there is erm positive discrimination against women, and we are... always discriminated on... the sexual harassment in the college is unbelievable and... we have to campaign against this and that's what's gonna keep me being a student. [speaker002:] Might be useful to find out how many here actually do have children. Do you have children? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, of this hundred fourteen of you have children. Now, you may vote in fo on this question as well, do you have or want children? Button one for yes, er and button two for no. So if you've got children vote yes on that one, if you want children. And, of this hundred... three don't knows, that seems reasonable. Seventy six say yes! That's something to be sure of, I don't think I was sure. Twenty one say no and that's something to be sure of as well. How do you know that you don't you twenty one who said no? Yes? [speaker008:] I don't like children! I don't get on with them! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] I just don't get on with them. I can't... talk to them or anything so [speaker002:] You. [speaker009:] I don't want to be tied, I want to leave my options free so that I can do whatever I want, I don't need the extra responsibility, I mean... I'd like them but I just, I want my career first. [speaker002:] Mhm. Of the yes's, and that's majority, the seventy six... when? When do you fancy doing it? Yes? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Er, the next seven years or after that [LAUGHTER] probably []. [speaker002:] Not, so not till you're what? Thirty odd? [speaker009:] Well, I'm only [LAUGHTER] nineteen just now []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Ah but [speaker009:] About twenty five, twenty six I think I'll [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker009:] sort of think about it then. [speaker002:] Yep? [speaker010:] Na, I mean answered a yes to that question, but I don't think it's a matter of do you want or do you no, cos I don't think the choice is there. I think we have to be freed up to have the choice to bring children into a society where... that we can go to work, that we can do, you know fulfilling [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] experiences and daycare and... you know, even in... er child care and so on. I think, while I say that I want children, and do I have a child, that i, it's not made particularly easy. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] You have a job and... you do the things that kin a... er, inspire you to go on, you know, you know with er any other opportunity. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker001:] I have got two children and I'm hoping to go to college when my youngest daughter is three cos I can't get her, can't go until she is three cos the creche won't take them... until they're out of nappies and three year old. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] But I'm desperate to go to college, I mean I love my kids and my kids get everything... they need, but I can't go, it's holding me back, I can't get... my two into the creche. [speaker002:] Do you think young men think at all about looking after children or or or child care? I mean i in your experience is it something that you talk about at all with with with men? Yes? When I... done a Y T S course Yep. like... most of the... the child care was done by the girls, but there was actually a few... of the boys that decided they wanted to work in the nurseries and... o eh... the five that done, there's actually two that we know of a... are actually doing child care as a career. Really? Yes. Now, that is a change! And I Yeah. no man of my age who er, who who are doing child care or anything similar. Any other er... any other views on this? Yes? [speaker003:] My boyfriend said he would... stay at home and be the househusband and look after the children and do co co, the cleaning and cooking if I... stayed at work. [speaker002:] Does that appeal to you? [speaker003:] No. [speaker004:] I'd be quite happy to go to work if erm... if I had a good job and my boyfriend... stayed at home, that'd suit me fine! [LAUGHTER] If I could go out to work [] and leave the child and... and do what I wanted to do, I'd be quite happy with that. [speaker002:] Is anybody living in that situation at the moment? Are there are any er, there any, yes? [speaker005:] No, I just started a part-time job and my boyfriend's, come and watch them and he's helping me cleaning the house and everything's clean when I come home. We just started last week on this... like that. [speaker002:] What one week in? [speaker005:] Well, it's every night but it's just a couple of hours a night. [speaker002:] Yeah, but I mean you're one week into the regime? [speaker005:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Yeah. How's he doing? [speaker005:] [LAUGHTER] Good []! [speaker002:] Good, which... Yep? Yep? [speaker006:] Er, I'm a... first year primary school stu [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] student and I've actually come across books now, that erm... don't say the mother cleans the house, it's always a father. There is lots of books that I've got, either the father or the brother cleaning, and it's not just the mother and the daughter. [speaker007:] Yeah I I... what I'm a bit worried about is whether it's come to the stage where girls are now scared to put their name down to take home economics at school. [speaker002:] Because? [speaker007:] Because there's like th, the male dominated, like a male dominated in the class [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] it might never come to that stage. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker008:] The thing is er, you can end up feeling like a bit of a, a failure, almost like a traitor to womankind if you do take courses that are traditionally female. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] Well I can remember whe when I was at school, physics and maths were clever subjects, they were male subjects. When er, the headmaster when he was reading out the the subjects that people were taking for highers, and one girl was doing physics, maths and further maths, he said oh, one of our cleverer girls! So the rest of us who were doing arts or humanities or whatever, weren't as clever because she was doing [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] the male subject. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] And I just think that that's the real danger. [speaker002:] Can I sa, I'll ask another question tha, since we're talking about erm... er, advances er... which at one time came under the general heading, feminism, would you call yourself a feminist? Button one for yes, and button two for no.... And... four aren't sure... forty of you say yes, but the majority, fifty six say no! Now, that's interesting! Of the forty who said yes, what do you mean by that when you say you're a feminist? Yes? [speaker009:] I think there's still a need for feminism today, there we [speaker002:] How? [speaker009:] there were moves made in the sixties but I'm sure that the process is ongoing and we still [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] need... we still need feminists today. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes? [speaker010:] Now some, somebody famous once said... erm, I'm called a feminist because I say things that is, to distinguish myself from a doormat. And I think [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] and... the a the idea of of erm... the butch woman in dungarees, as being the feminist, erm... and the women that burnt her bra or whatever was a feminist of the seventies, but it doesn't mean to say that the ideas aren't still there, and I still want to be treated as an equal, but I do, I don't see... that I should change the way that I dress or the way that... that I want to act [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] because of that it's my ideals. [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] Audrey? [speaker001:] I think it's possible that... a lot of the women here are saying no because of the stigma that's attached to the word... feminist... feminism. The words the, I mean it has always been stigmatized by men, lesbians, and, you know everything [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] else, and I think that people have to got sort of clarify what feminism is, and what... sort of what aspects of it they want to take on. [speaker002:] There. [speaker001:] Erm, I'd like to say Sheena that I, I think it was a difficult question that you asked, are you a feminist? Cos it's... it's puts it do, I know you were saying about it's difficult to answer yes or no to a question but i in this case it's really true because... I answered no but I've I've got erm... I mean I've I've got a degree in politics and I studied er, I did a a course women in politics [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and I've re I have quite a high awareness about women's position in society, but... because of that I feel that I've... now come to reject the term feminism because... erm... I think it's also harming the people who, you know, it's harming the women that are holding on to that er, label because it is label... and that is erm... because it's, because it's a label it then... it's blocking er forms progress for women. And er... I think, I I agree, I agree with a lot of the demands that feminist women have made... but, to kind of congregate it in that way, it's bu, I mean a lot of wha er, white feminists have been attacked for... excluding black women, and that's one of the examples where... you know, to be, to say that you're a feminist, it's not just men that you're alienating, you're also alienating other way. [speaker002:] How interesting! Yes? I think feminism was something that was very necessary from, from the last generation and we're now standing on the Mm. shoulders of the last generation Mhm. but we need to make a lot of changes with this concept of feminism. And, and really erm, develop something new, something that's going to be more equal, something that won't discriminate against men... and something that er, that isn't associated with... with... some more ridiculous aspects of Mhm. of the things that have been associated with feminism. So is it, is it as much the word as the philosophy? I mean, you suggested the philosophy, you suggested that the term has become devalued because of unfortunate associations which may have been imposed by, by men. I think it is as much that the word is a philosophy, but I don't think we should throw it out of the window altogether, like I say, it's a foundation, it's our... our foundation stone. History. Yes? [speaker003:] I have a certain degree of sympathy for men because I think you have to take into consideration that men aren't given enough opportunity to feel se, er sympathetic, maybe again is the wrong word [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] but to feel sorry for women and put their view forward because, I mean, you still the situation of a Friday when men go down to the pub and you know they're all Jack the Lad! Men are frightened to put forward their opinion. I mean, if a man cries he's considered a wimp! It's erm, even back to school, I mean boys wear blue, girls wear pink, if you see a boy with pink i, you know he's classed as cissy, er, cissy or wimp things like that. I don't think men are given enough room to express their emotions and feelings about things. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker004:] I think it's men that use feminism, or feminist in a derogatory term [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] and it shouldn't be. It's something I'm very proud to say that I am, cos I believe in equal rights and that's what feminism is, is believing in equal rights for women. I mean, I think every women sho, here should be proud to say they're a feminist if they believe in equal rights for theirself, and it's only men that use in the derogatory way. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes? [speaker005:] Erm what I wanted to say is, erm, in response to the lady in the red, was that a lot of feminists have a lot to answer for because, in the sense, men erm can be discriminat, well not discriminated but we can say things about men which are generalizations, whereas if a, one man says one generalized thing about a woman, then he's just, you know chauvinists is everything, and he's got a really bad name to him, so I think it's got to be looked at from both sides. [speaker006:] I mean, I'm definitely a feminist, but I'm not a man hater, but I mean I think everyone's looking for the new term and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] exactly as Alice said, the new term is womenist, not feminist. And,a a I mean I think we have, you know, to be feminists because we don't want to be better than men, we just want to be equal. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Wanna be a person then! [speaker008:] I I think erm [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker008:] this is a good word because it... well it's not because of the associations but it stresses the femininity and that's what a lot of... the sixties feminists lost, I think was their... own femininity because they saw it as man's... imposition [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] of femininity onto them. [speaker004:] I think it's far too early to give up the term feminist. I think, we've still got so much to do, to to get to equality... it's too early to give it up. [speaker009:] And I know it's important to be equal in careers and... to have equal opportunities and I'm not arguing against that, but I also think that perhaps, in doing so some women... also lose the pride in... being a woman, and... e equality isn't being a man, which I think some feminists take that view, that they're not equal to a man unless they're earning money. But that staying at home and looking after the children, or whatever and bringing up a family is... just as... valuable as a job, or a career. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] Erm, I don't think equality is being a man, I have no desire to be a man. Erm, but we've talked a lot about erm labels being [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] negative and excluding people, but I also think that labels... can be very, very positive and very, very important and that's, I think that's why... erm, people thought up the word feminism and yeah, okay we have to think about the word and we have to think about what it means for us so... yeah, a lot of pe, er people don't want to call themselves feminists because the label has such negative connotations, but it does also mean very positive things, it's a way of bringing people together, it's a way of... supporting each other, it's, you know it's, brings solidarity to the movement... and people need labels. I thi, because the society does want to categorise people so easily and so quickly... erm, it's... it's a very, erm... easy, quick way of erm, knowing where stand. [speaker001:] Yeah, I think it's important like in the nineties... that we're facing, not like the the legal inequalities that we're, the, faced, the generation, the sixties... but we're facing attitudes that are... not [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] changing. We've now got sexual equality in theory, and... pay, and jobs and status and stuff, but we're facing attitudes which are much more harder to change. [speaker002:] We've talked quite a bit about the, I suppose th th th the women's side of er, of this programme's title, what about the Scottish side? Right at the beginning someone said they were enjoying life at the moment because they were able to do what they wanted to do in Scotland. Now, I wonder how many of you, er... are expecting to stay in Scotland? Let me ask you that question. Do you hope to stay in Scotland? I mean, with forays abroad, I dare say, but would you expect the rest of life to be spent in Scotland, or based in Scotland? And [sigh]... those same three people keep abstaining, it's amazing! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Sixty two say yes, thirty five no. Of the no's, would you like to say why you voted no? Yes? Basically because the weather's terrible here and I'd [LAUGHTER] like to move abroad []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] So you're gonna be heading for the sun? Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Spain []! Yeah. Okay, any other? Er, yes? [speaker003:] I have a strong interest in languages, and although now we are trying to teach more languages in school, even in primary schooling, I don't feel that within er... my, I'm only eighteen at the moment, by the time I'm twenty five things still won't have came far enough along for me to utilize this skill. [speaker006:] I would probably end working in Europe as well [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] because there's no job opportunities over here, it's... a lovely country but... it's simply because of the work factor. [speaker002:] So you'll be a civil engineer abroad? [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []! [speaker002:] Right. Well of course there's a great tradition of Scots leaving Scotland and and maybe there's nothing wrong with that, I mean, there's there's no shame in leaving is there? I mean, of those of you who want to stay, the sixty fi, the sixty two... er wha, why do you want to stay? [speaker004:] I love Scotland and I wouldn't leave. Par partly because I'd get homesick, and I just love the whole of Scotland! I mean, I could go from anywhere, Lowerick down to the borders and I'd... I'd be, I'd feel at home, but I wouldn't feel... I mean, I went down to... England for something like four days, and like from Berwick,ma, about it must be about ten miles from Berwick to the Scottish, the Scotland thing and I was a... craning my head out the bus window to see it! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] I was, I just love Scotland so much! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] I feel a sense of loyalty, that after erm... the... education department has paid four years for me to [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] learn my trade that I ought to stay here and put something back into the industry again. [speaker002:] What's your trade? [speaker004:] Erm, I'm in... government manufacturing. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker004:] And, I'd like to stay up here and... sort of keep the industry going. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] That's a very important point! It's sad to see that so many people feel that they have to move away. And job situation maybe is that, but I think we should stay here and fight, and demand that we have the industries up here so that people from Scotland can stay and better, better theirselves here... rather than move away. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] So far I've really enjoyed my life... well no major complaints anyway, and so I'd like to bring my children up here enjoying their life as well. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Stu, I mean I live in Glasgow, the chances of me leaving Glasgow are pro,pre pretty slim but... yeah, I certainly don't want to stay in Scotland because of any loyalty, that I don't think it's given me very much other than a lot of experience, a lot of struggle, a lot of opportunities... to stand alongside... working class people and fight against, you know, the injustices. But I think I'll stay here... but I see myself as a internationalist as well. [speaker008:] I think that the money that is actually getting put into Scotland in tourism, I mean I come from Sterling and [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] it's, Sterling is gonna be quite, really good... in the future for jobs and for everything. Erm, I just love Sco Scotland, I think it's got a lot to offer, it's beautiful place! I don't think I would leave Scotland within the the near future because I love Iron Bru too much, and I [LAUGHTER] wouldn't get in some other places or [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] Well, I know there are like, problems for women, they're discriminated against, but I think if you've got the drive and the motivation I think you can overcome these problems. Mm. [speaker002:] Ah, hands always go up when I'm about to finish the programme and you've been so [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I'll give you a er, just a couple. Yes? [speaker010:] It's actually women of our age group that has gotta take the responsibility for to make changes, so that women in the next generation have got that opportunity that we did nah have till now... and that's the whole point of it. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] I was just gonna say, we've been talking about equality a lot tonight [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] and although things may not be brilliant for, in the workplace at the moment, but we're we're making a move, we're getting a, a foot in there. In years to come they're gonna be the managers... so hopefully we can make it better for someone else. [speaker002:] A great positive note on which to end, and so we must I'm afraid. Thank you very much indeed! Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Saint Andrew and Father Christmas. What have they got to do with our real lives, today? Do you wish your nearest and dearest happy Saint Andrew's day on the morning of the thirtieth? Yes, we're talking about traditions. [introduction music] [speaker002:] Let's start with Christmas. Now we all know about the commercialization of Christmas and the pressure to spend money to give the kids the best, which often means the most expensive! Not to mention the pressure to play happy families which often leads to arguments and tears, or loneliness and depression. The point is, it never used to be like that in Scotland, Hogmanay was the main event, short and pagan and... festive in a Scottish kind of way. It's not that long ago that Scots worked through Christmas, including Christmas day. So, Christmas, two months of panic before it, two months of dieting after it, tell me honestly with exactly one month to go, are you really looking forward to it? Let me put that question to the hundred women here, are you looking forward to Christmas? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, this hundred don't share my apparent cynicism, seventy three of them are, twenty seven said no. Of those who said yes, why? What are you looking forward to? Yes? [speaker003:] Young children. It's always a happy time with young children in the house... and everybody gathers around, it's a family time for us and we enjoy it. [speaker002:] Who else said yes. Mhm. [speaker004:] Well my family has, is now all over the world... so Christmas, give me a good excuse to sa, to tell them to come home, we need you! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Who else said yes? Mhm. [speaker005:] I love it because it's Christian and... Christmas to me is basically a... traditional Christian festival, and that's the part of it that I enjoy. I must admit, I do enjoy... over indulging on the Christmas pudding as well! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker005:] But firstly it's a, it is... a special religious time. [speaker002:] Okay. Who else? Any of the yes's? Yes? [speaker006:] Yes, I love Christmas because family comes together. We are rather living apart now, some down South [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] er, and er... it's grand to have er the family together again. [speaker007:] I just don't like all the hassle, or the money spent, all the food that's eaten, all the washing up! And, quite honestly I'd... my family are quite happy where they are. [speaker008:] I dislike the commercialization and the pressure to consume. I'd, I'm... [LAUGHTER] find it quite offensive [] sometimes, and particularly, I happen to work on a, a project that's to do with poverty and I'm very aware of the kind of pe pressures that that sort of consumerism can [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] put on people. So I dislike that. I think the other thing I dislike as pressure is to be with people and to, to be happy when actually, lots of time, I would rather just be on my own! [speaker002:] How do you withstand the... the commercial pressures and the emotional pressures, the seventy three of you who are looking forward to Christmas? Yes? [speaker009:] Well I started when my children were quite young, and taught them that er... advertisements on television were just an invitation to be ripped off. [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker009:] And I seem to have been fairly successful... in that... I've never... neither I, nor Father Christmas, has ever been asked for what I would consider to be a greedy, outrageous present! [speaker002:] That's er, so you've been a successful propagandist? [speaker009:] I've brainwashed them, yes! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Er, yes? Up there. [speaker010:] Yes, I was very successful in that respect as well that er, my children, I taught them that... just to wait till the January sales and they'd get what they wanted for [LAUGHTER] half the price []! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] And er, also, I like the religious side of it too, I [speaker002:] Mm, yeah. [speaker010:] I emphasize the the true religious... er, feeling of the [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker010:] the occasion. [speaker002:] There. [speaker001:] I wanted to answer yes and no. Yes, to the fact the family gets together... maybe [speaker002:] Right. [speaker001:] you ha, it's first time for the whole year you've seen some of them, and so on. And the other thing is, I don't like the commercialism, I think it's just [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] gone over the top! [speaker002:] Mm. Up there? I think a lot of people... tend to find it hard to get by on a, a monthly pay packet as it is You bet! and then there's the... as everyone says the commercialism coming up to Christmas it's Yeah. it's even harder to try and get by on your pay packet and to get all the Christmas presents. So, in that respect I find, I mean I'm, I'm just gonna be making my first monthly pay packet and I don't know how I'm gonna manage. Mm. Here. [speaker003:] Yes. It's interesting the lady [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] saying yes and a no. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] The reason why you say yes and no is that everybody wishes Christmas is the ideal... and perfect and everybody gets together... but there are so many people who are not in that position, and therefore, it emphasizes those who are not. [speaker002:] Mhm. Beside you here. [speaker004:] Er, I was at a a appalled recently being in... in Edinburgh in the shops in the middle of September where everywhere you looked there was Christmas ball balls and [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] Christmas trees, and I have two small children that to try to sustain Christmas for three or four days is very difficult, to do it for three months is impossible! [speaker005:] Well a, my kids always got a, something at Christmas... not very much at times, and they looked forward to it. But, we always... before Hogmanay, because we used to go out fresh [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] fresh fruiting people, and I used to have people coming to my house [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] and we miss all that. It seems to have died away now. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] Well I think now, in general in in Scotland th the... the the drinking license has been different... er Hogmanay does not exist as such because [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] nowadays most people have Hogmanay every weekend! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker006:] No, well I mean, let's be honest today, you know, clubs, the opening of pubs in places liked [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] and the changing of the licensing laws... and I think, traditionally now... more Scots enjoy Christmas better... than they [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] used to do years ago because they were working or whatever. You know, I think it is now more a traditional family time, Christmas, and you know they don't look at Hogmanay the same. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] At Christmas and Hogmanay, well I'd like to go away and get outside do you know where the country because that is more Scottish, you get, that's the countryside. I wouldn't like to be stuck up in the city and have an... being forced to buy people lots of Christmas presents that I just can't afford. [speaker002:] So do you think you're inventing your own tradition, which is a perfectly time honoured and respectable thing to do, or do you think you're harking back to an old tradition or or what? [speaker007:] Well a mixture between both cos... I can er ah go back but there's lots of things I do... just now that weren't about in those days. [speaker002:] Yes? Yes? [speaker008:] I would like to say that in these days of environmental awareness and so on, that is a kind of harking back to times when there was a mid-winter feast [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] it was all to do with... recognising it was the middle of the winter, sun was at it's lowest and the sun would be coming back again, and maybe that's some sort of gut feeling [speaker007:] Yeah, celebration. [speaker008:] that you're having, and I think other people have too. [speaker002:] Beside you. [speaker009:] Yes, I I'd like to go back to that very traditional Hogmanay, I mean, I think that Hogmanay is very important, not the... the Hogmanay that we have now where everybody gathers round a T V... but it was very much... erm like a... I always think Hogmanay at my granny's, as do er, most of the people in in th the mining area, actually her house was a focus. And some of the things that led up to it... erm,yo you had like a form of spring cleaning yo you know [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] everybody here will be aware of that, turning the house inside out, erm, getting rid of... of all the old things and I [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] that went out to erm making up argu, you know if you'd fallen out with somebody you had to make up with them before the bells, and in fact what my granny did was to... erm... to empty the fire and to relay the fire for the new year [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] and at ten to twelve my grandfather would take out the bucket with the old ashes and bury it in a garden, and that would burying the old year [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] and looking forward to a new year. And I mean, I still feel very emotional at er Hogmanay [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] you know. I think about the year that's gone past, perhaps, people who've passed out of my life, and think of it as a new beginning, and I wish as Scots that we would hold on to it and perpetuate that tradition and get away from gathering around the T V in Hogmanay. [speaker010:] In my tradition... on a Christmas day... and Hogmanay, we have the old fashioned Scottish Ceilidh [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] pipes playing, accordions... traditional ballad song, and that is our... what we do at Christmas and new year is to have the old traditional ballad song. [speaker002:] So, are there particular ballads sung and... sung, and tunes played at Christmas that, that aren't played at other times of the year? I mean, what what differentiates that kind of Ceilidh from from [speaker010:] Well, er at Christmas time and the new year time, we can let our hair down and sing the old traditional ballads, maybe [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker010:] forty or fifty verses, where other times of the year the young ones would nah sit and listen to that. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] But Christmas and new year is our time to let our hair down and sit our old traditional ballads. [speaker002:] You should say who who we are? I mean I don't [speaker010:] We are the Stewarts of Blair... er, traditional ballad singers [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] and story tellers of Scotland. [speaker002:] And that tradition is is unbroken and and [speaker010:] It's [speaker002:] it's unhurt by ti, by the passage of time? [speaker010:] It's unbroken in our family. It's it's er, the travellers tradition... and it goes back to the old tradition of the Scottish people as well [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] which is dying out now but we are adamant to keep it alive! [speaker002:] Mhm. Down here. [speaker001:] I wo, I would like to go back to the days of my youth when we... at Hogmanay there was usually frost and... and and ice, and er we used to celebrate it partly on skates and it was great fun when you skated perhaps a mile and a half out of the town, and er... er had a lovely ice festival and then we skated back and we had [speaker002:] Where was [speaker001:] dancing at the cross and er [speaker002:] Where was that? [speaker001:] That was in Straven [speaker002:] In Straven [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] Is there no longer frost in Straven at Hogmanay [speaker001:] [clapping] Well, I've been away for three, well th the winters aren't as hard now as they used to be. [speaker002:] Like the summers aren't as golden? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Aye []. [speaker002:] I mean is that, is that [speaker001:] Well [speaker002:] did you feel as if [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Yes? There's a sort of cosy sentimental glow coming over everyone who's talking about, it can't have been all that wonderful, all the time somehow! [speaker010:] There was a lot of hard drinking in those [speaker002:] Yes! [speaker010:] days. A lot of women must have suffered in those [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker010:] same Hogmanays. [speaker002:] Well looking ahead to to the events er a month hence, but of course this week... er, on the thirtieth of this month er... we will be celebrating Saint Andrews day, or will we? Do do you celebrate Saint Andrews day? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Now this is supposed to be Scotland's national day, however, amongst this hundred eighty people don't celebrate it, twenty do! The twenty who do wha wha wha what do you do, those tho those those twenty? Yes? [speaker003:] Buy a bottle of whisky and... order up a haggis. [speaker002:] Whisky and haggis? [speaker003:] Give him a good toast. [speaker002:] Okay. Who else said yes? Aha. [speaker004:] Yeah. I usu, I usually go to a St.Andrews dance about that time. [speaker002:] Right! The la wo in front? [speaker001:] She said not. [speaker002:] Er, in front. [speaker005:] I go to er a St Andrews dinner [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] run by lasses. [speaker002:] And does it feel like a traditional Scottish [speaker005:] Yeah, we run it as such... very much. [speaker002:] Ah yo... sa so you use the day as a, as a, as a reason to have that event? [speaker005:] Yes. [speaker002:] Who else? Yes? [speaker005:] I'm a musician, so St. Andrews night is one of the, the great weeks of the year... and erm... invariably turns out to be male orientated, erm [speaker002:] No! [speaker005:] Yes it does! Oh yes it does! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker005:] It's usually male singers and and all sorts of things like that. Erm, but it's a nice week. [speaker002:] Do you think that's the reason why eighty of the people [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] here said no, they weren't celebrating St. Andrews because it's actually er a male tradition? [speaker005:] Perhaps, yes. It's also a lesser tradition, St. Andrews day. [speaker002:] I mean the eighty of you who said no,do does St. Andrews day mean anything to you at a a at all? Yes? [speaker006:] Why St. Andrew? I mean, I know his bones were brought to Scotland but why St. Andrew? [speaker007:] It's celebrated in the schools with er, my school children always acknowledge it, so it may not actually be celebrated within the family as such, but it's certainly acknowledged. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] Well it [speaker002:] Yeah? [speaker008:] Well it's part of the reason that er it's not celebrated is that because it isn't a holiday. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] Lots of people want it to, er suggest that it ought to be holiday but [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] obviously not enough. [speaker002:] Would you like it to be a holiday. [speaker008:] Sure. [speaker001:] Yes! [speaker002:] And, and and what would you do to mark St. Andrews day? Would you [speaker008:] I would do as I do now probably and go to some kind of... St. Andrews night... do or something like that. [speaker002:] Yes? There. [speaker009:] I was just going to sa, er ask the question if it's not more celebrated by expatriate Scots? [speaker008:] Well [speaker009:] And the rest of the world [speaker008:] might be. [speaker009:] you know, that's the... that's Scotland. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] That's it's day. [speaker002:] There is a point [speaker009:] You know [speaker002:] there though isn't there, there are St. Andrews day dinner and dances held [speaker009:] Mm. [speaker002:] all over the world where there is a Scottish community, from Hong Kong to New York. In fact,th the New York Saint Andrews Society which exists to er... I think to er, apart from to hold er meetings and er... get togethers, also to assist er Scots in New York, at least that was one of it's original... er, principles, they have a... er a splendid dinner with all these gentlemen in full kilts, kengroms, don'tski and do's, the whole... bangshoot, and and their their women folk can come and watch them from the gallery upstairs. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] I mean, do they? I mean, maybe maybe that's... but then we have something not un er un unkin to that which is er, a traditional Burns night. Now... do you go to Burns nights, do you enjoy those as a good Scottish tradition? Yes? [speaker010:] Oh yes! [speaker001:] Yes, but it's not so male orien orientated now as you're making it out to be. Cos [speaker002:] Oh, I'm I'm sorry I didn't, I was sa, I was simply suggested it used to be, I mean it did originally start as a [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] as a, as a male thing. [speaker001:] Well many of the traditions nowadays, even the male orientated ones are depending a lot on women to upho hold them. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes. I think actually, there are still a few erm male only Burns suppers. I'm a singer and I have... on several occasions sung at male only Burns suppers which means you get wheeled in after the meal is over, and then... wheeled out again... after that, which doesn't worry me at all [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] because I'm charged exactly the same whether I'm there for three hours or twenty minutes! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] And er... frankly, you would nah want to go to [LAUGHTER] a male, a male only Burns supper, they [], they they're a most un... seemly looking crew by the time they've finished their dinner! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker003:] I think it's a good idea that more and more schools now are having Burns suppers [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] both at the primary level and the secondary level, so what's coming across is not just er the fact that perhaps Burns was a womanizer, but also as a nationalist and an internationalist [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] and a humanitarian. [speaker002:] Up there. Yes? [speaker004:] Can somebody tell me here why... Robert Burns is so... celebrated when he was a womanizer and neglected his wife... why? [speaker001:] No! [clapping] [speaker002:] Nelly, could you explain why? [speaker005:] I'll explain why, he was a socialist! [speaker001:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker005:] Rabbi Burns was a socialist! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker005:] That's why... it's er celebrated so much! Because... it's, one of his poems was, when man to man in the world ever shall grer,gra gra, Oh Gosh! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker005:] well be for all that, and... and and help me God it's not happened yet! [speaker001:] [clapping] [clapping] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] I don't really think it's good enough for Nelly to say that he was socialist because I don't think his attitudes to women [speaker001:] Yeah! [speaker004:] would be upheld by women in the nineties, definitely not! If you have a look at some of his poetry. [speaker005:] A oh yes, but [speaker004:] And I would like to make another quote if I may, he was the one that talked about Scotland being the land of cakes, and brother Scots, where the women made the cakes but he's only addressing the brother Scots. [speaker001:] Yeah! [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker004:] Yet, these traditions which are kept, which have no status whatsoever, women's traditions. [speaker002:] Down here. [speaker005:] But the fact remains that he has written the most beautiful love songs that Here here! we have in this country. [speaker004:] And he also had the write pornographic poetry! [speaker005:] And th th th they're known all over the world. [speaker002:] Mhm. There. [speaker006:] I think if you ha, if you look at Burns in the context of the time in which he lived, he was not an exceptional drinker or an exceptional womanizer, we're a lot like him [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker006:] and it was the... ma, it was the custom of the times, and we we we shouldn't judge somebody living in another age by [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] the standards of our own. [speaker002:] Mhm. I'd like to pick up something... er, that Veronica touched on, you said women's traditions, now,wha what are women's traditions? [speaker004:] Well we're all struggling to think of them I suppose, but what the one lady said over here about ballad making and story telling [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] maybe that's one of women's traditions, I believe they had a big part to pla play in it. [speaker002:] By the way, the reason I ask is because th that suggests from from the phrase you used that that you see... there are men's traditions... and that perhaps Scottish traditions are... are very, are very [speaker004:] I see that men's traditions are held in higher esteem... and some parts of women's lives, like cooking and... making clothes and so on [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] because they were women's work they were held in a [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] mu much less esteem. These [speaker002:] But [speaker004:] kind of trad traditions I mean. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker007:] I, I imagine that there were erm... distinct women's traditions in pre-Christian times... erm, and that these are lost... to us now. [speaker002:] There has been a revival of er, of some of those old fash, for instance, Beltane [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] is, has been celebrated er... more recently in Scotland and, and I... I think quite successfully. Liz, you're a... you've been Beltane Queen. Now, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Beltane so [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] assume that none of us is... and er... what, what happens at a Beltane [speaker008:] Well [speaker002:] night? [speaker008:] It's, certainly erm... well attended, there's, you know thousands of people attend and basically it centres around... erm, a fire, Beltane means erm, sacred fire... and... erm a procession of drummers leads me to top of a path and along Carlfa, Carlton Hill... and erm... fire sculptures are lit around me... and I unfo ha have this great costume that I unfold in and erm process round the hill and round hill are different performers... erm... painted in different colours to represent different elements of nature, and... finally we come to this big fire where... which I light with hands, which have been sculpted and... bannocks are given to the people to eat, and erm... the tradition that you're supposed to cross the fire as a sort of a erm... purification ceremony or... or through the ashes of the fire. [speaker002:] And you as the Beltane Queen are the, you know so, the the the, the focus of this, or one of the main focal figures, yes? [speaker008:] Yes. That's taken,i i it refers to... Pagan festivals that have happened in the past,i i I mean we've invented... our own rituals as well, but based on the May Queen figure. So that that's why I'm sort of representing Mother earth. [speaker002:] Mhm. So it's an unashamedly Pagan fertility festival? [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker009:] I think, I think the reason why it's... women are erm... somewhat cautious about talking about these [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] essentially sacred times [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] is the knowledge that if er, we'd been talking about them two hundred and fifty years ago... we'd be put on trial and probably... burnt to death. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] Well there's a grand old Scottish tradition, burning witches. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] And er, it's not one that's er... that's currently practised, but it's not all that long ago, in in folk memory that that that women in their... particularly women who had practices and rituals were seen as witches. Do do does that [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] is that what's making you all clam up about the potential for women's traditions? Are you keeping yourselves to yourselves? Yes? [speaker010:] Erm, well I've talked a erm... about women's traditions in the sense of singing and celebrating [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] and so on but what about working traditions in [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] Scotland? You know, when I was bringing up my children in the early seventies I read about the the mergence of the new working woman, you know, how to balance a career and a home and children, and I couldn't for the life of me think what was new about this working woman! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] Because the women in my family... and most families in Scotland had always gone out to work. Erm, this was in fact something... you know, coming from, I think the feminist movement and very much a a... it was quite new for middle class women to go out and work, and you know they are now aghast that they're... you know, having to juggle all these things... but these were traditions that had in fact, been handed down. Where I come from, erm most of the the the fish, the fishing part of the community, up until just two, three years ago... we had a tradition of women's working practices which were handed down for hundreds of years from the female side. Now, most people think... that you were a fish wife because you were married to a fisherman... that had nothing to do with it! You were a fish wife because your mother, or your granny, or your auntie was a fish wife. It was in fact, a closed shop, and those working practices and skills were handed down from mother to daughter. I actually became interested, not... so much in the women locally... but my o, my own grandmother Greta, was a herring gutter from Wick I never knew her, I have one photograph of her taken with her two children, and when my children were small I used to look at this and think, how did she get away for weeks to work and follow the boats [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] when I can't get the ho, out the house for an afternoon? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] Now there's a tradition. There is no job that women today where they go away together and work. And I think the practise of women working in a group like that... and supporting each other has long gone. In Fisherrotha... th, the women were economically independent, they had flexible working hours [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] they organized their own child care practices, all the things that women say they're fighting for today, has actually been done before, and done very successfully. These women gave all their money they ha, they made, till the day they were married, they handed it over to their mothers. Once they got married they never told their husbands how much they earned... ever! Now that's what you call liberistic women! [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] Definitely! And I think it's a pity we don't carry it [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker010:] today. [speaker002:] Yep. Yep. [speaker001:] [clapping] Erm, in Aberdeen we had our first woman's festival in nineteen ninety and we're ready to have our second festival in nineteen ninety two. [speaker002:] Mhm. Up there. Yes? Yes. Ah, women's tradition that eh, seems to have grown up in the workplace, or maybe it's it er, nested outside the workplace originally, is er, when a bride gets dressed up, we must all be familiar with that... er, when she's going to get married and... carries a chanty round about to make a collection [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] I'm not su, I'm sure I don't know what it's called, I'm ashamed to say! But er... that's definitely a woman's tradition, men don't do it. But they do other things. Well they barkening in in Aberdeen don't they? They, they chase the potential groom around and cover him in gloar. Yes? [speaker003:] I would just like to say that women from the ethnic minorities, I'm talking about our community and, they've have children that have been born and brought up over here, we have double trouble cos we celebrate Christmas, New Year, Easter... and then we uphold our own traditions and have o all our own festivals as well. [speaker001:] [clapping] [speaker002:] But you say double trouble but I mean that's, isn't that good because you're bringing more traditions in? Do you find tha that that... you're... you're bringing traditions to... people? [speaker003:] Well yes, because in the schools now they've started erm... some of the schools have taken up celebration, Divali which is coming up in November... and erm... they celebrate some of the other festivals as well. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] We say that er... women's lives have changed, and the working patterns have changed because [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] we are... more in the forefront. We can be managers now [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] erm... and I wonder if... our traditions have disappeared because we have had to adapt to working lives and changes in lives, and I wonder if men have held onto theirs... in the face of women being a threat to them in working environments and other aspects of their life. We've infiltrated into their pubs... you know [speaker002:] [clapping] [speaker004:] how far are women gonna go? Are we really gonna take over the Burns suppers now? [speaker002:] Esther? [speaker005:] Erm,th I'd like to make a couple of points about traditions, women's traditions, one is particularly looking at th the oral tradition o, the tradition of poetry in Scotland, and there's a very rich tradition of Gaelic poetry, and ballad singing, as [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] as has been mentioned, which has been something that often has been composed by women and transmitted by women, and there's recently been an anthology published of Scottish womens poetry, I think that's a tradition... and is perhaps related to second point, the fact that the material's only just becoming available to us. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] That, part of th, of the issue I think about us, perhaps feeling that we don't have traditions th is that we we are still rediscovering our own history, and I think a lot of traditions grow out of historical events or historical personages. There is a rich... erm, history of women in Scotland and we're only just beginning to discover that and publish that, and I think that we will establish traditions by doing that. [speaker002:] Well we're go, we're going to a close, so let me finally ask you yo thi this,i if you wanted to reassert one Scottish tradition, either an old one or a new one,wha what would it be? What would you like to be... er, a Scottish tradition which at the moment is perhaps... fallen away? Yes? Up there. [speaker006:] Just Ceilidh. [speaker002:] Sorry? [speaker006:] Ceilidh in the house. When yo, people just gather informally, and friends and neighbours... and you make music and you sing songs, you tell stories, play instruments, do what you like, eat, drink... talk. [speaker002:] Well I haven't said,her, heard anybody say anything about the grand old tradition of switching on the television set, and I've a horrible feeling that er... that th... that the one day in the year when people want to get together with their families probably means switching off the television set. So I'm very grateful to you for sticking with us... and getting away from your traditions for this half hour. Thanks to all of you for sharing your views. Goodbye. [closing music]

[speaker001:] I've got a prop tonight... this is it! It tells me on the packet that stopping smoking reduces the risk of serious diseases. Actually, I've got another one here with a different motto, this one says er, smoking can cause fatal diseases. Well! I mean, I've seen lots of people doing this and er... they're not dead yet, so, here goes! Actually, hang on! I haven't, I haven't asked the people here whether I'm allowed to do this? Erm, may I smoke? Well let's put it to the vote? Button one for yes, button two for no. [introduction music] [speaker002:] Well, this er hundred women... are divided, but the majority, sixty two say no I may not smoke. So I'm not going to. I wonder why erm... I wonder why you said no, those sixty two of you? Why did you say I may not? Yes? [speaker003:] Three years ago the Independent Scientific Committee for Smoking and Health declared that there was a ten to fifty percent increase in the risk of lung cancer and respiratory diseases for non-smokers who became passive smokers. And therefore, I would rather you didn't smoke. [speaker002:] Because I might affect you? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker004:] I find it unpleasant and it gives me an allergy so... I'd rather you didn't from my point of view. [speaker002:] Even at this distance. [speaker004:] Yes I I [speaker002:] Yeah, so so you're thinking of yourself? [speaker004:] A [speaker002:] No one 's thinking about me yet! But never mind! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker005:] Do you actually smoke yourself? [speaker002:] Do I actually smoke myself? [speaker005:] Aha. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Listen... I I ask the questions here okay! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Who el, who else said no I may not? [speaker006:] You you you [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] you have the right smoke yourself and pollute the envir environment but not mine, I'd rather you didn't! [speaker002:] Aha. Yes? [speaker007:] I wear contact lenses and it annoys... my eyes. [speaker002:] Yes. [speaker008:] I just feel you can smoke in the privacy of your own... room, car, whatever. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker009:] I feel you can't smoke because you're gonna blow up beds in my hospital ward. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mm mm. Right! Anyone else? Yes? [speaker010:] My doctor says I've to avoid smoky environments [speaker002:] Okay. [speaker010:] it's affected my throat. [speaker002:] Can I ask the thirty eight who said yes I may, why why you said that? Why you voted that yes I may? [speaker001:] Well I smoke myself so I believe that I've no right to tell anyone else not to smoke. [speaker002:] Okay. Who else? Well I was... I'm Yes? the Scottish representative of FOREST, which is a freedom organization for the right to enjoy smoking tobacco. Mhm. And while I can understand certain people saying... that yes, smoking irritates my eyes, my nose, and yes, they're quite right they are entitled to breathe erm... u u unsolid air, if yo if you want to put it that Mhm. way, but we do believe that there should be... accommodation in most places, for most, that we should have designated areas Mhm. for smokers and non-smokers wherever possible. Mhm. Let me just check who, what the the the representation of this audience. No close-up vote, so you can vote er, you can tell the truth here. Are you or were you a smoker? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And amongst this hundred, forty nine say yes, fifty one have never touched the evil or the enjoyable weed depending on your viewpoint. Do you smoke now? Button one for yes, button two for no. And... twenty six, that's just over a quarter of this hundred smoke now. [speaker003:] In Scotland, er, in nineteen eighty eight the official government statistics that thirty seven percent of adult women smoked. About thirty percent of fifteen year old girls smoke, which is a very depressing statistic! Erm, the numbers are coming down, but they're coming, er but in fact we have among, among the highest smoking rates among women in the world... er, with consequent effects on people's health. [speaker002:] Ye, you're concerned, you're worried. You better say where yo, who you're from, Alison. [speaker003:] Er, I'm the Scottish Director of ASH. Which is [speaker002:] Which is? [speaker003:] Action on Smoking and Health. [speaker002:] Right! Yes? [speaker004:] I think I smoke purely out of now, more than anything else. I've smoked for over fifteen years, and it has become, it's something to do with my hands... and I think that's what it is with me. [speaker002:] Have you ever tried to stop [speaker004:] I have stopped... erm, I stopped once for well over a year... and er, I went back to smoking shortly after the death of my mother, who incidentally, died of a smoking related disease. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] But that didn't stop me going back to it. [speaker005:] , I've been smoking since I wa twe, since I've been twelve... and I just canna stop... and I think it's disgusting! And it's all I've got. I just have a cigarette for, to keep you calm. [speaker002:] Have you tried any other... erm [speaker005:] I've tried that... chewing gum you get... but it still didn't stop me. [speaker002:] Behind you. [speaker006:] If I don't smoke, I eat. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] [LAUGHTER] That's why I smoke, I think []! My weight is bu, erm heavy enough! [speaker002:] So you've tried, not smoking and [speaker006:] I did stop smoking for three months and then... with everyone else around us, I mean I was putting on weight and then I went back to smoking. But I enjoy smoking. [speaker007:] I found the opposite! I smoked for twenty seven years, and... erm... I'm getting on to a year now since I stopped smoking... and I feel a lot calmer, I hated being a victim to cigarettes! Erm [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] but I never felt confident enough to [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] to give up and I thought... I don't want to fail... on my own so I won't even attempt... and then I erm... I joined this project, and that was enough, I think, to keep me off. [speaker002:] Mary, you you actually run that project, where do you find your people from? [speaker009:] We advertised, in fact, for people who wanted to smoking... but could do with a little help, because I really do think that women do need a little help, a bit of support... to do this. We had over, over a hundred women in fact, we had a fifty percent success rate, thirty nine, well almost thirty nine of these women stopped smoking... and... most of them, almost all, showed a tremendous improvement in fitness, in well being, and quite a few, I won't say everyone, felt that i, they were much more relaxed [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] as smokers but... coming on to th the real point of the experiment wasn't to look at fitness, and wasn't just to set up a stop smoking project, but what I wanted to look at was... whether people gain weight or not. So we didn't tell them that that was what they were doing, I'm sorry! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] And in fact... a third of our eighty... people who were successful... sorry! A third of the people who were successful in stopping, didn't gain weight... or gained less than a couple of pounds. [speaker002:] Does that mean two thirds of the people who were successful [speaker009:] Two thirds did... yes. [speaker002:] Did put on weight? [speaker009:] Yes. [speaker002:] Now one has to ask, does putting on weight matter? I mean... what do you think? Yes? [speaker010:] Well erm... I actually stopped smoking about er, two years ago... and was quite surprised at the amount of weight I put on in about five months, which was two stone, which... I didn't think I'd deserved! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] Er, I could taste... better, but I didn't think I deserved erm... er, two stone. Anyway, er I fell pregnant into the bargain, at the e end of the pregnancy weighed fourteen stone and purposely started smoking again [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] to get the weight off! In [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] six months was down to... the two three pounds... under... the weight I was when I started. But that took about two years by the time, I purposely started smoking to... keep it down. [speaker002:] Amanda? [speaker001:] Yes. Erm, I think on that, that that... we must remember that cigarettes are a drug [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] erm, and there are two aspects, that they can a stimulant... and whilst I'm, I would agree that many women, it is part of... dealing with problems in their lives, coping with stress, that part of that is also... withdrawal symptoms from the nicotine, and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] we know, from research even amongst very young girls who only smoke a few cigarettes a week, that when they try to give up they get withdrawal symptoms, and... so having a cigarette erm... helps them Mm. cope with that. Can I just point out, also, on the weight thing [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] you said is it, is it er... a concern? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] It's a concern for the tobacco industry, because right from the days they started targeting women, earlier on in the century, the slogan was... reach for a Lucky... erm ma, not for a sweet. And, we've seen through their advertising in targeting women that they've tried to post the image... if you smoke, you're more likely to be slim and slender. [speaker002:] Anne? Yes, but beating, I smoke sixty cigarettes a day and I wouldn't care... just now, if I went up to twenty stone! If I could stop smoking, I would stop! Have you tried going to one of these groups or clinics, or I've had, I to myself, yes... and it did nothing. Nothing at all. Will you try again? I could try again, yes. Well, would you like to? For health reasons, yes I'd Yeah. to. Sue? [speaker003:] I think part of the thing about stress isn't so much whether it's a chemical effect, but it's a... having a cigarette is a way of creating a wee break if you're... if you're busy... and as a, that can be really difficult for women to do, actually demand a bit of time for themselves. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] You know, even if it's just five minutes, but it can actually, you know, you sit down, you have a... you have a cigarette... and that's a way of making a break that you [speaker002:] So yo [speaker003:] that you wouldn't be able do otherwise. [speaker002:] So you're using it as an excuse? [speaker003:] Yeah. Yeah. [speaker002:] Joan? [speaker004:] On the lighter side actually, my husband, and my sister-in- law and brother-in-law used to smoke, and I got very... cute to this, because I sa, noticed that they stopped working every time they had cigarette [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] but I didn't get the break! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] So I said, okay, I'm having a cigarette break now. And er... this was... this is fairly true! You [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] do... stop, well you wind down. [speaker005:] I find that when women start smoking it's normally in bike sheds, behind the back of the school, it's a communal thing. It's [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] just to be one of the crowd, one of the in-crowd, and once you've started it's very, very hard to stop. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] I used to smoke at school, but I don't smoke now, I've not smoked since I left school! [speaker002:] But you felt it was addictive? [speaker005:] Oh very much so! Aha [speaker002:] And how did you break the addiction? [speaker005:] I threw them in the river! That was it! No more! [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] I work in a school and I know that the, the pupils, they do smoke, they start to smoke, you know, like in first, second year [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and er, they think it's a, a cool thing! You can tell the kids who... don't smoke from the kids who do smoke, they do have an attitude at that age and it [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] at the beginning, I don't think they like it they just smoke, and then obviously it becomes... it's a drug... and then, you know they can't get off it obviously... and le [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] it's no longer a cool thing, it's... a problem. [speaker002:] Mm. But there still is amo, amongst kids, some kids... it's it's smart to smoke... whether [speaker006:] Oh yes! [speaker002:] you're defying authority or behaving like a grown up or [speaker006:] Oh yeah! And they talk about! You know, they like to tell you that they smoke. They like to... they like to let know that they smoke [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] cos as you say, just defying. [speaker002:] Yep. Sarah? [speaker007:] Yeah, erm... I er, I'd given up erm about se seven weeks ago, and... I was told that it was an anti-depressant and when I came off the cigarettes it was just... terrible! You know, all these emotions and anger and... various other things. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] You know, it's [speaker002:] But you're sta, but you're staying off? [speaker007:] Well [LAUGHTER] hopefully! Well hopefully [LAUGHTER]! [speaker002:] Yep. Yeah. Mary? [speaker009:] If I go, If I could just... to, to bring go, right back to a point you made much earlier... coming off is exactly as you've described it for most people [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] what I most often heard when I phoned people a couple of days in was that it's been the worst two days of my life! [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker009:] Now, a lot of people got to the one month... happily, the thirty nine, but only... fifteen out of these thirty nine made it to six months. Now, I think staying stopped is much more, not much more difficult... but just doesn't receive the attention that it deserves [speaker007:] Mm. [speaker009:] and I don't, I think a lot of that is... weight... continuing to [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] go on, like the [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] lady... because [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] the the original, the first weight gain, the first week ten days is bad enough... you only gain two or three pounds but it's all going round your tummy [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] your waist, your waist disappears, your jeans don't fit, your skirts don't fit. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] After that [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] you know, the fat just keeps on going! It's [speaker002:] Right! [speaker009:] very... distressing! [speaker002:] Moira? [speaker008:] I used to smoke, but I just stopped smoking altogether [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker008:] and that was about seven years ago, and I won't smoke again. [speaker002:] Right. [speaker008:] I found it, when I stopped smoking my clothes a... smelt! [speaker002:] Yep. Yep. [speaker001:] Yeah. [speaker008:] There was a terrible... and I [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker008:] think there's a stigma attached to smoking now. It's an anti-social habit. [speaker002:] Right. Lindy? [speaker009:] I think it would be helpful for people who smoke erm, to to think about just how very powerful a drug it is, because I know there have been studies done which show that it's actually more difficult to stay off cigarettes than it is to stay off heroine. There ar, more people lapse... to cigarettes. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] Erm, and... i i, I think people quite often feel very bad when they try to stop smoking, I I ha, used to smoke about forty a day and I've now succeeded in stopped for about four years, but I know that I did have several failures and whe when when you try to stop and and fail you feel extremely bad and low and depressed about yourself, and people probably need quite a lot of support. [speaker002:] Okay. Well, there's a number of things there I'd like to follow up. Can I first of all nail this health thing because er, near the start Anne said that th th, the court is still our, opinion is still divided on just how bad for you, for instance, passive smoking is. Erm, would anyone like to, to give er, the final word on... er, what the present view on on er, the dangers of smoking and the effect of smoking on your health? Yes? [speaker010:] I don't think that there is any doubt... that we have known for more than thirty years that smoking is associated with... er ma er, fatal diseases and er... not just fatal disease but, diseases but very debilitating diseases. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] The interesting thing is that... it doesn't seem to influence our particular... habit-forming er, take-up rates, and it doesn't influence it because there is this lag period... between starting smoking... and developing lung cancer... or developing heart disease... or developing verofa ves vascular disease. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] And it is very difficult to influence children... e, who are starting at the age of ten to fifteen... with threats of lung cancer at the age group between fifty and sixty... regardless of the horrors that you can describe to them. I mean, lung cancer is not a curable disease. [speaker002:] You work with, you're a consultant working [speaker010:] Yes. [speaker002:] with people who have [speaker010:] Yes. [speaker002:] lung cancer? [speaker010:] And I think that even patients with lung cancer... find it impossible to smo, stop smoking That is, perhaps, not so important, but what is much more important is that their families find it impossible to stop smoking! And that is something that... to me, is very difficult to understand. [speaker002:] Now I, that sounds like a cancel of despair, at least coming from,fo, from your view point, if there's nothing to be said to dissuade people, and I'm sure you could if you wanted to give us horror stories, and scare stories [speaker010:] Mm. [speaker002:] but you say that's not effective? [speaker010:] No. [speaker001:] It's not. [speaker010:] I think what we have to do, and and there are people here that will probably know much more about that tha than I do... is pro pro produce strategies which are much more socially and peer pressure group and acceptable to prevent youngsters from smo, from starting. We have heard, for half of this programme how [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] difficult it is to stop... and how... people are feeling vulnerable about trying to stop... we've got to su su,sto sa sa stop them starting. [speaker002:] Well we've also heard the the the, the paradox that, as Moira said, there's a growing stigma now attached to people who do smoke [speaker008:] Mm. [speaker002:] but that it's still cool for kids to start smoking. Now, now... ah, how do you... how you um, er, how do you balance those tho those two different things? Alison? [speaker003:] I think that... it's very important for people who smoke not to blame themselves, it is not their fault... they smoke. As we've heard from people in this programme tonight, most of them start when they're... children or young adolescents [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] they have no idea what they're letting themselves in for. And I think that if people who are still smoking, and I think nearly every smoker is unhappy... with their habit, if they will remember that and think that they can actually do something for the next generation, it's not their fault, there are people out there, there are forces out there who are... forced them to start smoking and who are trying to get the generation to start. I think actually, we need a social, social revolution. It's beginning to happen. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] I think we can protect our children much better than we do, for one thing there is a law that says it's illegal to sell tobacco to children under sixteen, that law is flouted every day in a large proportion of the, er the shops in this city and in Scotland. Er, we by our own views and our own concern could stop that almost over night, there's a lot we can do! We can persuade our government to ban advertising and all forms of tobacco er, promotion. We can actually raise a generation of kids who don't smoke. We know, even those of us who are still smoking know what the, what the problems are, let's get on and do something about it! [speaker002:] Anne? I think first of all, I think we've go, what we've got to get clear that smoking is an adult pursuit Mhm. it is not a pursuit for children... drinking is not a pursuit for Mhm. children, and neither is sex. So, first of all... let me say, it's a matter of choice. Mhm. An adult nowadays cannot really say, or even someone in school, in secondary school cannot say that they do not know the dangers of cigarettes. FOREST has never said... smoking is good for you. What we're saying it is your choice, knowing the dangers... to smoke or not to smoke. I believe the young, young lady over in the other side, really told the truth, more of the truth than perhaps anyone else... she said she liked it. Now, I know many pe, persons who have liked smoking but who have to, for some reason or other, maybe raised blood pressure, to give up... and they have managed to do it... and quite easily, because they have desperately wanted to. But you must want to! Mm. It's like eating chocolates, or any of the things you like doing. Okay. Can I ask you A Anne, what your view on advertising is? You say adults should be free to choose to smoke, now do you think the advertisement of tobacco should be permitted? It is at the moment in certain situations Yes, I certainly do! There is absolutely no evidence to suggest... that by taking away advertising you will, you will er, cut down smoking. Absolutely none at all! There is an assertion. I wonder what you think? Let me put that to the vote. Should all adverts for tobacco be banned? Button one for yes, button two for no. They're restricted, as you know, at the moment. And amongst this hundred... er, thirty six say no, possibly for the reasons you said. Sixty four, the majority in this hundred say... yes! [speaker001:] There are places that have introduced a ban on advertising. Norway is a particularly interesting example where they saw a rocketing... rate of smoking amongst... adolescents... they introduced a smoking ban, er an an advertising ban, and in fact, it's reversed and they, they're youngsters are not smoking at the same rate as... as they were. [speaker002:] It's really with regard to the advertising of tobacco Yep. products and I think we all agree that we do have a responsibility... to protect children. And what we do from research is that children who smoke are more likely to smoke the brands that are heavily advertised Mm. and we also know that advertising reinforces smoking, it makes, makes people think that smoking is okay. So I think these are two very, very valid reasons why we ought to ban... all forms of tobacco advertising. Mhm. Yes? [speaker003:] Erm... there's another point that erm... about choice, erm... the speaker over there said that... we were adults, we were free to choose [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] to smoke... when it comes to to... stopping smoking... there is an element there where people don't have the choice to stop smoking, it's portrayed as something you do if you have the willpower. A a, to make it easy to stop smoking you need to have... freedom from stress, you need to have leisure, you need to have... circumstances [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] which make it easier for you to stop... and a lot of people don't have the choice to stop, if you look at it in that sense. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] I think another erm... aspect about smoking is, I'm not a smoker, but I often wonder if... er, smokers feel used... by the amount of taxation on cigarettes? Er, you know, they're actually paying money to the government every time they buy and every budget day the cigarettes go up. Er,th they must feel that erm... you know, it's getting dearer and dearer and is it, is it all worth it? [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] Is it worth four hours of oxygen therapy for somebody with a cons er, an airways disease? You put these people on oxygen therapy for days and days and days, they come off and say... can I have a cigarette? No, I'm sorry. It's worth every penny to put the tax on cigarettes. [speaker006:] Another thing about smoking, although nobody's denying it's bad for you, is the fact is that, it's overwhelming the core of women who smoke, who also have worst diets, they also tend to have worse stress, it's used as a very convenient scapegoat. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker006:] Or or catch all scapegoat when there are these other factors involved which are contributing to... to health problems [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] because it's a lot easier for a government to say... if you stop smoking it'll be alright, than to deal with things like poverty. [speaker002:] Mhm. Th... erm, the the other one that came up was erm, er and even Anne agreed that er, smoking if you must smoke is is for adults, not for children, now how do you erm, we've we've touched on advertising, is there anything else that might be done to dissuade children from smoking? Anne has said that, that giving them th th the grizzliest facts doesn't really impress them. Kathleen? [speaker007:] I think there are various strategies that you can adopt with children, I think the first and most obvious is work through the educational system, through schools and there's been many excellent school's programmes developed! Another method which is becoming very popular is to complement the school work by having smoke-busters clubs for children. The, really, Scotland is leading the way! There's actually some very good news on this front... and there's now five or six clubs throughout Scotland, and the aim to encourage children, obviously, to remain non- smokers [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] and we do that by communicating directly with them... erm, in their homes, and it's proving a very, very popular strategy. [speaker002:] You know, the beginning when I said... may I smoke? And sixty two of you said no, I mean, are any of you er, do do any of you impose the stigma of being a smoker on other people? Do any of you say to your friends, don't smoke? Do you say, no you can't smoke in my house? Do yo, Susie? [speaker008:] Both my parents smoke, and my sister smokes and I... can't any longer be in the same room as them! I,i it used to be something I put up with when I was younger, now, if my parents come to visit I ask them to smoke in the corridor, go out of the door, open a window, something, because I found it affects me so badly! And I would like to find some way of saying to people who do smoke, for instance, even on the top of buses where it's now banned, you know, please don't! But they take it so, so strongly, they become so aggressive that it's, it's almost more trouble than it's worth to to mention it to people. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker009:] I'm er... ve very strongly against smoking and if someone comes to my house and asks if they can smoke, I do say no, and I ask them if they wish to smoke if they would go outside. But, I take it a little step further because if I do go somewhere like a bus and people are smoking then I'll actually approach and ask them to put it out. I've done that on trains, I've done that on a tour bus quite recently, and of course the response you get can be very, very aggressive and that's sometimes quite hard to handle... but I take the precaution of always checking before I go somewhere that I'm going to, I'm going to be backed up, for example, erm before I go I... purchase my holiday, I actually checked with the tour company that they didn't allow smoking on the buses [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] so if I feel I'm in the right and I fe I feel I can impose that upon them. [speaker002:] Do you think the day will ever come when we don't smoke? I mean, I know that's what Glasgow two thousand,we, various people here are er, are hoping that that that smoking will become a thing of the past, do you think, do you think it will? I should ask Anne. Let me ask you. No. I don't think it will. And I think... the main question, and the best question that could be asked to the audience if they really Mhm. think it through... is that, do we want to live in a country where it is normal to see an advert wi, under the job section saying, no smoker need apply? Would we like to live in a country... where a blu, er smokalizer, or whatever you would like to call it, is used at the work? Not to see if they were smoking at work... but even in the privacy of their own home... would we like that? As far as the children are concerned, I would say that... children, always break the rules! If it's there. If there's a tree they will climb it, forbidden fruits always taste the sweetest. And I think, that the more you forbade, forbid the thing, the more attractive you make it to a child. But maybe you can educate people out of it rather than ban? Any, any [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker002:] other thoughts? Yes? [speaker010:] I'm, I'm interested, I don't think anyone here has suggested the, the draconian measures which you stand to [speaker002:] But that's what's happening! [speaker010:] erm, I think what we've shown here is, is a, a a shared... concern about this, whether we are smokers or non-smokers. A particular concern about young people. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] Kids live in the same world as adults, the advertising, the pressures are there, and I think we, also this important point that it's... women's health who's already most... disadvantaged, that's women on low incomes with very [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] little support... are most affected... and we need to er, go back to what Kathleen was saying about education, we need to... help young girls get self-confidence, more se, coping skills to deal with these pressures, but also, as other people have said, we need to get the government to look at the fact as, that... encourage women to keep smoking... and address those issues as well. [speaker002:] Good discussion! Thank you all very much indeed! I hope you've heard something that er... meant something to you. If you need help I hope you go look for it. If you're all trying to give up... good luck! And goodnight. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Your wedding is the happiest day of your life... no? Well, what is it then? [introduction music] [speaker002:] Getting married is something that most Scottish women do at least once in their lives, and most Scottish men, which means that most of us have planned a wedding... and that's what we're talking about tonight, weddings. Where you have them, who comes, what you wear, what you do, what it costs, and what you think about it later. Now, if like me you've yet to attempt this big production number you could pick up a few tips here, after all, we've a number of professionals in this hundred, hoteliers, dressmakers, cake makers, photographers, and video makers, registrars, ministers, but above all, we have a lot ex-brides here, and let's start off by finding how many we have. Have you been a bride? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred we have sixty nine... er ex-brides... thirty one still to make the leap. Now wo er erm, I can't ask you whether it was the happiest day of your life because only sixty nine of you would know. We well was it? [speaker003:] It's the only day, really in a women's life where everybody at her and she's made to feel like the most special person on this earth, so I'd highly recommend it. [speaker002:] Was that your experience? [speaker003:] Yes it was, yeah. You're the only person there wearing the ball gown, you're the only person there getting their photograph taken a hundred times over [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] so you're made to feel the most special person on the earth and I think that makes it worth it for a lot of them. [speaker002:] Did you like it so much you you'd you'd you'd do you would do it again? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] [LAUGHTER] Possibly not, no []! [speaker002:] But it worked? I mean, for you that big day, cos I mean it is, it's a, it's a nerve wracking occasion isn't it? [speaker003:] Yeah, it's it's it's the build up to it as well, there's a lot of excitement, I mean, most people it takes about six months to build up to the big day, and then finally it's there and it all happens and, I think that makes it a lot, exciting for a lot of women. [speaker002:] Now, was that the the experience of the, of the other sixty eight of you ex-wives? Yes? [speaker004:] I think a lot of people get carried away with the occasion and it's actually supposed to be a very romantic day, and, you know, that's what it was for me. [speaker002:] So it was everything you hoped it would be? [speaker004:] Yes. But I think people do get carried away with traditions and the occasion and this grand affair... and really, it could be a very small low-key affair, but it's, it's meant to be a very romantic special day for two people. [speaker002:] Yes? Behind you. [speaker005:] I... I think erm... i it seems very sad if we can single out one day to be the most important in our lives. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] And it's a very special thing if you're going to join forces with another person, and good luck to you, but... I think erm it seems that, there maybe down [LAUGHTER] forever after that [], if it's the most important day! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Er, have you been a bride? [speaker005:] Yes I have. I've actually [LAUGHTER] been a bride twice actually []! [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker005:] Erm... and, and very [LAUGHTER] enjoyable days [] they were, but erm... I think if I were to plan a big party, or an anniversary or something like that, and I'd hope those would be jolly enjoyable days too. [speaker002:] Mhm. Yes? [speaker006:] I would like to get married all over again, to to the same person I might add, but [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] so that I could actually enjoy it more this time because... it's in, so much of a blur... when you get married the first time that... you're caught up with it and you don't really see what happens, I would like to get married all over again. [speaker002:] What did you do? [speaker006:] Well I was actually married in England because... I'm E, I'm English, but one of guys, erm, for instance, he wore a kilt and he showed all the English what he wore under the kilt [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] and I missed it! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] That, so I don't know what a man wears under his [LAUGHTER] kilt []! [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] I, oh I can't believe that []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker007:] Well, I haven't been married but I have, did recently graduate, and that was a very important day for me [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker007:] and, personally, I'd much rather have er, people looking at me for what I achieved er, rather than just looking pretty on a day, I think that's more important to me. [speaker002:] Sian... you're a florist [speaker008:] Yes. [speaker002:] now, er supposing weddings disappeared would that affect your business? [speaker008:] Weddings are a very important part, and a part that er, we all enjoy... but erm... we, I wouldn't say it was the major part of a florist's business, there's quite a few other aspects. As a florist you're dealing with most important days in peoples' lives, very often... new babies, weddings, funerals, erm... but no, I wouldn't say if weddings disappeared we'd all be... you know, in a terrible mess as a professionals, but... it's a very important part and an enjoyable part. [speaker002:] Fiona, what about you? [speaker009:] It's the same for us really, it's not the main part of the business [speaker002:] Well you better say what your business is. [speaker009:] in cake decorating and associated things, people have cakes for all occasions and erm... wedding cake's only one of them. But erm... again, it's it's good fun, kind of a good laugh with the wedding cake, at least with a wedding cake you're spending money and you're getting fed... and everybody's getting a bit of it! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] And do you do a er,do as far as the cake goes, I mean er, is there a variety in er... in the option? [speaker009:] Oh certainly! Yes, yes. I mean you... we, we have made, you know, black wedding cakes for people that feel, something like that, we've even made divorce cakes, so you don't have to get married to have one! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] What, what, what, what's a divorce cake look like? [speaker009:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] We had a bo, a broken heart [speaker002:] A broken heart, aha. [speaker009:] with sort of a trail of red blood coming out the middle! [speaker002:] Oh! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Roberta... if weddings disappeared a large part of your business wou would go wouldn't it? [speaker010:] Again, I think, like the rest erm [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] we evolved from the general fashion side, which is still as important to us, but the reason that we did probably evolve in in the the wedding side is because of th the need for us, it wasn't... us who pushed it from our end, more and more brides came to us, so therefore we grew. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker010:] Sort of [speaker001:] My wedding wasn't an ordinary wedding, I was married on top of Arthur's Seat and erm [speaker002:] You were married on top of Arthur's Seat [speaker001:] Yes, at sunrise on Christmas Eve four years ago... and, it was important for us to do exactly what we wanted because erm... it was a second wedding for both of us... and it was also erm... we wanted to have something that represented sort of the aspirations of love... and so, sunrise erm, and on the top of a hill... did that for us. And, if you can find a minister that's willing to go wherever you want to go! [LAUGHTER] In Scotland you can, can do almost anything. [speaker002:] Aren't you a minister yourself? [speaker001:] Yes. [speaker002:] So have you, have you performed any un unconventional weddings? [speaker001:] Yes, erm... well I I've not done a wedding in a church actually yet, but then I've only done three weddings, and, but the most interesting one was in a Brock in Glenelg... and erm, that was quite exciting because the couple really thought about the service and they had selected that sight because it meant something to them, and... involved the whole community and thereabout, and it was great! [speaker002:] Mm. Do you mind if I ask you about, about your own wedding o on the top of Arthur's Seat on Christmas Eve four [speaker001:] Mhm. [speaker002:] well Christmas eve was it? [speaker001:] Yes, Christmas eve, well [speaker002:] Did you have many guests... at sunrise? [speaker001:] Well we, we had about sixty... erm, people that trudged up to the top of the hill including erm, one who didn't know there was a wedding, he was a runner, and then he [LAUGHTER] and he had tagged the top of Arthur's Seat and was astonished to see a crowd there. [speaker002:] What do you wear to a mountain top wedding in the middle of winter? [speaker001:] Well you wear an anorak and a woollen skirt and... walking shoes. [speaker002:] Is that the most unusual wedding we have in this hundred tonight? I mean, has e,ye yes, yes it seems so, yes! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] No ones, no ones gonna do anything crazier than that! You touched on church weddings, now... lots and lots of people do get married in church, although many of them aren't er... aren't necessarily... church-goers, now Chrissie, can I, can I pick on you? You perfo yo as a Church of Scotland minister Aha. you perform weddings? Yup! If people aren't church-goers do you, will you still give them a church wedding? Yes. Why? Cos not all ministers will will they? Well I think it gives them a link with the church, erm... and they don't just come in and say oh yes, turn up on Saturday and you'll get married, there's... some meeting before that Mhm. so that we don't all meet as strangers on the day. [speaker003:] We found that a lot of young couples that... because you don't go to church on a regular basis... but erm, to go along with their parents' wishes too, rather than going through a big church wedding in a church, they go to a hotel and they have the erm, wedding ceremony and the reception all in the hotel, and are married by a minister. And that [speaker002:] So there had to be [speaker003:] Yes. [speaker002:] A minister will go out to a ho hotel. [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Have you done that Chrissie? Have you ever Yeah I have. Erm, I don't like it... er, not for particularly any religious reason but for the fact that the church is purpose-built for weddings and a lot of hotels aren't, so you get the girl with the ball gown, spent hundreds on it, and she's squeezed up sometimes and nobody can see her! But erm... I prefer to marry in the church. Angela? [speaker004:] We were married at home, and one of the reasons why is because we bought a very old house about three years ago and on the top floor it has a, a large room which used to be the ballroom, and we did a little research and we found that the last wedding that we know of in the house took place in seventeen fifty eight, when apparently it was very common in Scotland to get married at home, it was more uncommon to go to church. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] We did some more research and we found out that in return for doing this you had to pay the minister a fine, so we found a minister who was very excited by the idea of marrying us in a seventeen century house, and in fact, on the morning of the wedding he was more worried about what he was wearing than what I was! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] And erm, it wa, at the reception afterwards we actually paid him the fine... er, a contribution to a a, a fund his church had for a painting they wanted to buy. [speaker002:] They pay the minister a fine? [speaker004:] Yes. [speaker002:] But it's not convention of course, to pay the minister anything is it? I mean, Church of Scotland Ministers don't get paid. No. Er, it's different in other churches I think. Some, I think some people sometimes give a gift, [LAUGHTER] I've never, I don't think I've had a gift []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] I'd been, a few weeks ago I'd been to a wedding, and it was the most boring [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] ceremony I ever been in all my life! I get married about eleven years ago, it was four of us, me and my, the groom... and two witnesses. It was a special day but every day of my life it's a special... so it's nothing, I would not do it again, you know, just to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] but er, I think most of the time the wedding in here is much more geared for... how the bride look like and photographer, it is all the time for four hours, how you stand, it's nothing normal,noth nothing natural, nothing [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] nothing happy, you ju just to stand there, you can't laugh properly and you can't do this, and you can't do this, it's worse [speaker002:] So you think people are forced into conventional modes because they fe [speaker005:] It was awful! [speaker006:] How often do we, we really feel that the bride and groom are the people who make the choice? [speaker001:] Mm. [speaker006:] Is it not the parents [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] who are inclined to impose their choice on the bride and groom in a lot of cases? [speaker002:] Is, was that your experience? [speaker006:] Not me personally but I have known... a few people who've wanted perhaps, a very quiet wedding, just in a registry office, and finished up with a large church wedding. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] You talk about Brides' magazines, or any of the other magazines that are there, it's all set out, it's all hyped up... and, I think a lot of people feel they ha, really have to get married in that way. [speaker002:] Hannah? [speaker008:] I was just going to say that... being a photographer, we find that more and more people come with their mothers instead of the fiance whenever they're going to get married, and... it is all the time, the mother... has a big say in it... you know, instead of the couple. [speaker002:] Well now, there must be some mothers here who er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Any mothers who've married off their daughters in this dictatorial way, saying you must have this dress! You must allow [speaker001:] No. [speaker002:] to spend seven thousand pounds on you! Yes? [speaker009:] Expectations... just went too far! For instance, I mean er... my boyfriend, [cough] excuse me, I've been er living with him for years, and I have a child. Now I was at a wedding a little while back... and all they were asking me was... are you gonna be the next one? Are you gonna be the next one? It's like, I've already been asked, and I've refused, and I want to know... why is it people put so much pressure on you... to get married? For instance, in the hospital they were calling me Mrs, because er... the stigma er, is so much, and I mean er, I even get called a single parent and I'm not! I have a very stable relationship, and also with my child, and I know that it would be very difficult for us to split up, but I don't see why a bit of paper or a lovely ball gown, or a nice cake, will make it any better for me... at all? [speaker002:] You're not [speaker009:] No! I just [speaker010:] But what about the child? [speaker009:] Th er, well for instance er, the child has took... his name, I mean er... you know [speaker010:] But why can he take his name when he's your child and you haven't different names? [speaker009:] It doesn't matter because I I love him so much? [speaker010:] What about the child though? [speaker009:] Well why should I have... a pretty dress and a cake... when it's the love that's there... and not a piece of paper or a special day! [speaker002:] Up there. [speaker001:] Er I have a great sympathy for for that lady. I think I will be a very unconventional mother, and having two daughters of my own I am appalled by the cost that this is going to... erm [LAUGHTER] involve! Ah, if you're to believe the press that it costs about seven thousand pounds for... a wedding, an average cost for a wedding [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I would far rather say, if I had the seven thousand pounds, say to both my daughters there you are dears, there's the seven thousand pounds you decide how much of that you want for your wedding... what is left over you keep, and it would be interesting to find out how much they then spent on their photographers, and on their cake, and the, the wedding cars etcetera. [speaker002:] I would just to say, I think women, women are such victims of the fashion industry and I think there's a lot more hype surrounding th the bride than there is surrounding the groom and er... I think erm, you know th a lot more thought needs to go into the whole thing, there's so much pressure on young people, particularly girls and there's sa, so much idealism around the whole thing... erm, and and there's a lot of alternatives to marriage, you know, and this is discounted as th, the woman over there said, about being referred to as Mrs, particularly when you're over a certain age if you're not married. Have you had a wedding? No. No. I've managed to avoid it! Mm mm. [speaker003:] I think it depends very much on the age of the people getting married [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] young people very commonly are escorted by their mothers and the thing is, the politics of the family and showing themselves to their friends, but more and more we're dealing with people [speaker002:] Now you're a caterer? [speaker003:] I'm a caterer. [speaker002:] Yep. [speaker003:] probably my age... and, even a bit older, thirty, forty, getting married, sometimes a second time, and they say this is our party [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker003:] and they are not influenced, I don't think, by a large amount of... hype and fashion. And there, as someone else said, erm earlier, organizing their party, the day of their life which happens to be also their wedding day, and those sort of parties are far more fun to work at than the... far more... stilted family affairs that do happen for younger people. [speaker004:] With regards about the lady... that you've the relationship, a stable relationship, not being married... another lady pointed out, but what about the child? Maybe get married and maybe not work out, then divorce, so what happens to the child then? [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I don't think it's any different. [speaker005:] I think we've, we've said quite a bit about erm... previously about the symbolism of, of a wedding, if [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] it's a special day to you, you know getting married on the top of Arthur's Seat or whatever, but what about for the majority of people who who have a church wedding and the symbolism there that just goes unstated. This whole thing of the... bride being, well often not, but frogmarched down the aisle and being transferred from being her father's property to being her husband's property [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker005:] and that being taken... by, by taking his name! You know, there's a lot of symbolism that really has been lost, people don't think about in the wedding service, but is underlying, you know, until fa fairly recently a lot of people promised to obey, erm, look at Prince Andrew and that when he got married, you know, erm, the Duchess of York actually promised to obey him [speaker002:] That was her choice presumably. [speaker005:] and what does that say for, what does say for women... erm, and for the status of women in this country? [speaker002:] Well, in her case, presumably, she wanted to say she would obey him and and... subsequently perhaps she has, and he's very happy with that, but that's a fairly cynical view isn't it, the the the bride's a kind of ceremonial heifer, who's had [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] in lace, in lace? I mean doesn't that [speaker005:] But that, there is a lot of a symbolism there that people... don't seem to look at [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] anymore, you know because it's the nice ceremony and because it's it's a do. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker006:] Er, I vividly remember my, my wedding day, and the bit I remember most is actually waiting to go into church with my father, and I remember... being particularly moved at that time... thinking that that was the end of one era... and about to become part of another... and I didn't feel that I was... being owned somebody and about to be owned by anyone else in the slightest! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker007:] I think when you talk about symbolism of a wedding, in actual fact, what does a wedding say? It says, very little about the practicalities of life. If people are going to prepare to spend the rest of their lives together, they should be discussing much more important things than concepts, like forever, they should be discussing, what happens if it's splits up? Which it... statistically now, is quite often going to do. But surely, sitting down working out the legality of it, working out... sensible practical things is a much more... sensible way of proving you love somebody, and that you're you're genuine about it! [speaker008:] But you're not sensible when you're in love! You're not sensible when you're in love! [speaker007:] Well maybe you should be sensible! [speaker008:] ! [speaker007:] Maybe that's why so many children are products of broken, broken [speaker008:] ! [speaker007:] homes now! [speaker009:] When you're go into a marriage [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] go into a wedding, you go in believing that it is forever... that's it! [speaker008:] That's right! [speaker009:] You take your vows, you commit yourself! [speaker007:] But it usual, but nowadays it quite often [speaker008:] But that's why so many babies [speaker007:] isn't forever and people don't think often enough [speaker009:] That's statistics, I mean there's [speaker007:] well maybe statistics are. [speaker009:] But if you have a wedding day, you are going in there saying... I'm going to live with this person for the rest of my life. [speaker001:] Oh! Yeah. [speaker009:] And you firmly believe that at the time! [speaker002:] Up there. Yeah? [speaker001:] Er, I would like to know how much of the the, the, the thing about the bridal magazines and the whole idea of, of a wedding is portrayed and the media has an influence on a... a young girl wanting to get married rather than the actual... you know,th th, you know how much sh she knows the person, or loves the person, maybe it's the, the whole image of the wedding that takes over, you know, erm rather than the, the, the practicalities. [speaker002:] Well Moira, were you over influenced by the media, wanting to have that No. big day? I lived with my husband for... er, three and a half years, and I knew him for a good number of years before then, so we made a joint decision after that period of time that we were, wanted to commit ourselves Mm. and... we looked on it more as... a party and a family gathering and showing everybody else that we were now committed and we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. Well there's been some scepticism about the symbolism of, of weddings there's also some scepticism about the reality of making that vow forever, er, which I personally have sympathy with cos I don't see how you can say you're going to do anything forever, but I suppose if you've made a vow you've got to stick with it. Is it possible to have a wedding ceremony... that er, that dodges those rather difficult bits? I mean, Chrissie, are you allowed to have a wedding ceremony tha tha which says erm... I'll love you for as long as I can possibly manage? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] I've heard erm... people saying, I think it was in America... erm, as, as long as you both shall love... instead of as long as you both shall live. Yes. [speaker003:] If you get married in a registry office, which I did, you don't say an, in England, you don't say... anything other than that you take this chap to be your husband, and you interpret that to be as you wish. So that's, entirely up to the pair of you. I think that these inflated ideas perhaps come with the old language of the church, and if you're going to do that well then, all hail to you... and er... presumably you mean it if you've gone there. [speaker002:] There are people who come from from different cultures amongst this hundred who might want to say something about... erm, wedding ceremonies. [speaker004:] [cough]... I got married twenty three years ago in China, well, we just invite er, invited er our friends, and er former school mates to ma, to my home and we didn't make any vow, er we... just gave a banquet to the friends, and er, in China people now can get married in many ways... and er... some foreigners have come to China to get married in a traditional Chinese way, and they have to... er, carry their bride in a sedan chair. [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] [LAUGHTER] And their bride has to wear... er, all in red... and er... the bridegroo er groom has to wear a long costume with a... red big flowers in front i... aha... and then they get married and... there's erm band, the Chinese traditional band with drums and trumpets... blowing all the time and er, all the guests have a very nice time. And in China, usually, erm wedding is an important event in the family and an, when I got married I think my parents-in-law wo erm... felt erm more excited than my husband and [LAUGHTER] I []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Well that's,tha I mean tha that's, a pretty interesting description of er... of a different kind of wedding, which is another one er another [speaker005:] Well [speaker002:] optional variation that you might [speaker005:] well I got married in [speaker002:] want to choose? Yes? [speaker005:] Bu I meet a erm, a different oh, tribe in Saherli but I got married in England with my, though we make, this, I'd say, this man to be my wife forever, but when I got home, back home in Ingeria you know, we did it in a, a different way. We have er, my parents sat down with a the group of the family... there [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] you know, there's no vow there, but all we do is join hands together, share blessings to both of us, and no vow, we never make any vow but they made a blessing for us. The marriage will be successful... [whispering] and this one it is []. [speaker002:] There. [speaker006:] Well I'd, [cough], I come from Lebanon and I get married in here and I said the vows but I didn't understand, at that time I wasn't speaking English so [speaker002:] Oh! Oh! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Oh yeah! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] That's one to remember, I didn't understand what I was saying! Yes? [speaker007:] But in Lebanon we don't have vows, they have like kind of contract, and if the... if they broke the contract it's the bride and groo, the groom have to pay that amount of money for the... the bride, even if it was her fault. [speaker005:] It happens in my country, when you break the marriage, I mean in my town, when you break th the marriage this sort of money will be paid wi then. Whe when you're to make [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] a er, but want to, want to do a wedding you pay a certain er amount of money then, then when you break the wedding you refund the money to your husband. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes, this is, this is, this [LAUGHTER] er [] Who's picking up Laura's point which is that you get all the contractual arrangements... er er done, but I mean it doesn't mean you can't have the ritual, be it dressed with, you know, er a long [speaker008:] But [speaker002:] red dress with [speaker008:] my my complaint is that mostly [speaker002:] pom-poms for the groom or [speaker008:] it's, it's the pomp and circumstance and and the fluffy lace and everybody being really happy and... I know people think about it, but it's not seen as that, it's seen as... a a, a family society thing, it's not two people sitting [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] down and saying right, we're gonna buy a house, we're gonna have kids, have we thought about how many kids we're gonna have? Have we thought about whether we want to have kids at all? Maybe those are the questions we should asking, rather than you know, do you take this man for your husband. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] When you come from a big family, as I do, erm... yo you can have... any size of wedding as long as the right people are there, anybody gets excluded it's er... to be horrendous! [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] Starts with... you know, I haven't been invited... why I'm... and if you've got a big family, you really have to do it properly... and it, it's gonna cost! [speaker002:] Well a variety of views and I think the only generalization I can make about weddings is that you can't generalize about weddings, some people think they're wonderful, some people are sceptical, people have done their own er variations on weddings. I haven't really asked you very many questions so I'll, I'll ask you a question which sets us up for a programme we might do in the next series, having discussed the wedding, next... the honeymoon! Here's the question. Is a honeymoon a good way to start a marriage? Button one for yes, and button two for no. You don't have to have had one to be able to comment on this. And, seventy seven people say yes, and twenty three people say no, and aren't you fascinated to know why they voted that way? You'll have to watch the next series. From us, here, goodnight. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Who told you the facts of life? Did they tell you the truth? Or are you still working it out for yourself? [introduction music] [speaker002:] Sex education used to be whispered, sniggered and gossiped about, today, we're more enlightened, or are we? Exactly what should be taught, to whom, by whom, and when still provokes heated debate. So, we thought we'd find out what young people want to know, and what they think of the education they've had. After all, this hundred young women have all benefited from the open, healthy, society that's developed over the last few decades, or have they? Let's start with a question. Have you had formal sex education? Button one for yes, and button two for no.... And in this hundred, amazingly, twenty two people say no! Seventy eight said yes. Let's start with the yes's,wha what was it, the formal sex education, you seventy eight? What have you had... and where? [speaker003:] Sex in, section six in a biology class... about plants [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] flowers and that [speaker002:] That [speaker003:] was it! [speaker002:] That was it? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Plants and flowers? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Didn't you even got on to frogs and rabbits? [speaker003:] No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker003:] Flowers. [speaker002:] What about so [speaker003:] And that's all anybody got was section six, this dreaded section six which we were taught at the end of the year! And that's all anybody got in my school. [speaker002:] How about humans? [speaker003:] No. [LAUGHTER] No, just about plants []! [speaker002:] Seriously? [speaker003:] Yeah. [speaker002:] Beside you. [speaker004:] Yeah, we had erm... a class, an actual sex education class, every week for a year. Our biology teacher took it, but it was... it was also so, it was the facts about... erm... sex, abortion... contraception, but we also, also talked about the emotional side of things. [speaker002:] So, would you say it was quite good? [speaker004:] Yeah, it was quite. I mean, of course there were things that were... missed out I suppose, but... also, I suppose, we were quite young, so it may have quite embarrassing and we didn't want talk about certain things. [speaker002:] Was that the case or [speaker004:] Round about twelve or thirteen, I suppose they kind of [speaker002:] Do you think you were too young to talk about the... th the emotional side [speaker004:] Yeah. [speaker002:] of it? [speaker004:] Probably because most of us weren't really, well, quite a few of us anyway weren't thinking about sex at that time, so I suppose it was kind of you know, you just started [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] your periods and everything and you [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] you're not exactly thinking about sex. [speaker002:] Okay, so two not absolutely satisfactory er... experiences there. Has any,do has anybody had formal sex education of those seventy eight who that it was very we, it was well taught, that it was good? And you got a... yes? [speaker005:] Erm, sex education at school was [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] similar to... well the girl mentioned earlier on, that, since then... I've had... within the last couple of years [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] erm, I do voluntary work for the Brook Advisory, er through the peer educators and... that has been very... erm beneficial for... for myself and for the work... that er, we do with [speaker002:] What [speaker005:] youths. [speaker002:] Wha what what is that? I mean te tell me, tell us more about that. [speaker005:] Well we go to... youth clubs or schools... and, talk to... youths from... eight to eighteen about contraception... erm... drugs... and other topics of concern, abortion, homophobia, things like that. [speaker002:] What do you think of that? I mean I I, I don't know, what do yo, what do you think sex education should be? Is it, is it important at all? It wasn't, it wasn't much of a subject when I was young, is it, is it a necessary part of the school curriculum? Is it something that should be taught at home? What do you think? I mean,wha, those of you who have children wha, what do you, what do you hope for them? Yes? [speaker006:] I think it's very important. It's important people know the real facts about it instead a lot of this playground chatter. I also think it's important that... people have this sort of... emotional side of it taught to them as well, you're often taught like the straight, you know, the wee sperm and the wee egg come together and you get a baby, but you don't, not taught about the emotional side of it a lot [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] of the time, I think that's really important. [speaker002:] Is it possible to teach that. [speaker006:] Yes I think it is. I think it should be done a lot younger as well. [speaker002:] Primary age? [speaker006:] Yeah, primary I think, roundabout primary four or five, cos that's when they start talking about it, and that's where you start getting all the... the wrong things told to you in the playground, I mean I know that's what happened to me. [speaker002:] Really? So I mean, so wha, when, I mean how old when you found out, and who told you? [speaker006:] Oh! I was about, I dunno... about primary four age and someone in the playground, I think it was... can't remember exactly what I was told, obviously, but it was... something silly, you know, like [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] really dirty and everything which [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] it isn't. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker006:] It's not a [LAUGHTER] dirty thing []. [speaker002:] Yep. Yes? Yes? There. [speaker007:] Oh, erm, I just want to say how can a four or five year old... er, understand the concepts and... the emotions involved in sexual... relationships? [speaker006:] Well they don't have to know [speaker007:] If it's just erm [speaker006:] exactly what it is, but th we should be told that it's not a dirty thing, it's not a bad thing. You know what I mean? At th, a lot of people are just told that it's so dirty, which is isn't... and I [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker006:] just think... should, you should get across that it isn't dirty. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] Isn't it, but you don't you think that's more so for females than it is for males, the fact that it is such a dirty thing that, that applies more to females than it does, to males? [speaker006:] I think it applies to both sexes. [speaker002:] Can you avoid the kind of dirty, sniggering aspect though? I mean, is it possible to to, to have a holy, healthy attitude to, to sex? [speaker009:] I think erm... we could have a much healthier aspect to it if it was taught to u in a healthier way, I mean [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker009:] so many of the teachers that teach it are far too embarrassed to broach the... subject sensibly, you know, and they just pass it on... and so kids don't treat it sensibly. [speaker010:] I feel we're expecting [speaker001:] But don't you [speaker010:] an awful lot from teachers, you know, we're just expecting that they know everything about sex education. I feel that teachers must be educated, if they can education us. [speaker002:] Yeah. Any other views? Yes? [speaker001:] That last point, you were saying about, you know giggling and laughing about it, I think, that that's a part of it, I mean sex can be fun [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] so what's wrong with... er it shouldn't be dealt with in a like a really serious way, it should be fun for everybody and what's wrong with having a laugh about it as well? [speaker002:] What about home? I mean er, I wonder in fact I mi I might as you this question, have you discussed er sex with your parents? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred... sixty one, yes... thirty nine, no. Does, do those votes surprise you? Do you think er... yes? I think that everyone seems to pass the buck, I mean... the parents think, oh they'll learn it at school and the teachers think, oh co... they should be learning it from their parents, and yo, you never learn it from anyone just from your friends. Yes? [speaker003:] I think erm sexuality begins with sensuality... and therefore it should begin in the home, and it should be exaggerated at school, I mean, it should helped but fundamentally it's with your parents or guardians whoever, who should begin it. [speaker002:] Is that your experience? [speaker003:] Yeah, I mean I'm I'm very lucky because my parents are very liberal, and I mean they discussed sex with me quite early on and I've never had a problem discussing it with them. But that's not the case with everyone... er I mean un unfortunately I wish it was. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] Yeah, that i, is precisely, it isn't the case with everyone, I mean, I think that what the girl was saying up there about the groups going round, it's a great idea! It was the same in the biology, biology teacher at our school, it was very hush hush and very embarrassed. [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] I think if you got maybe a... twenty five year old who came to your school for a week... and... got you in a small group... and talked about it, it would be great on a one to one basis. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] Erm,a, my mother didn't speak to me about sex until I was pregnant! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker004:] You know which... I I i wa, I wasn't totally embarrassed about it but I just we, I think she was, you know, that sort of generation and that era, which I hope with my son it will be totally different, like... come to me and say anything you like, you know? [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker004:] I'm a liberal parent. [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] Yeah, there's probably two points I would want to say, one is that, what about the children and young people tha that refuse to go to school? And where's the education for them? I think the other one, about the woman across there said about, should start at home with sensuality and stuff and... many of the young women that I work wi, I've... I've heard very negative experiences of sex [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker005:] through sexual abuse, and I think we spend a lot of our time, and I think even for teachers, we spend a lot of our time undoing a lot of the damage of helping young people, undo a lot of damage that's done by sex. I don't think... they view it as a dead happy, enjoyable, fun thing and it's something that... that they do if you say, is really serious and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] something that is nay... er positive for them. [speaker006:] It doesn't matter, I mean, where or whom you've been told by, as long as you've been told... you can take precautions later in life from sexual diseases and... and getting yourself pregnant. [speaker002:] Mhm. What comes into sex education? I mean,th tha tha that's interesting what you said, because you said how to avoid sexual diseases and to er... avoid getting pregnant, are those the basics of sex education... or or what more would put onto the list of things that you would teach? Yes? [speaker007:] I think when somebody teaches it they teach it in the premise that everybody they're talking to is heterosexual. What about people that are homosexual? What about like... contraception should be integral part of it, and abortion and the options open to you, but I think it's very important that we are taught it, we're taught it in a heterosexual basis, and that's just not the case, and that just alienates people any more, really more from a very early age. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker008:] I'm still doing sex education at schools and look like it's changing a lot cos there's a lot more to do there, a lot more emphasis on Aids, that's why they've got to ki, teach kids in primary school, we've got to prevent them from getting a disease. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] I was gonna say about sex education that when I was learning at school, it's also very male dominated erm... it was, I mean you were talking about erm... what's i li, the differences between males and females learning about sex education and wha, and we were learnt about the the man having pleasure, we were taught about the man having the erection and... the man having the orgasm, I mean, we didn't even know what a clitoris was! Th I mean, I've never even heard of the term clitoris, and a friend of mine thought her clitoris was actually her epiglottis, I mean it [LAUGHTER] just got [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] the whole the thing just got completely confused. And that's when [speaker002:] But do you think it's appropriate to teach sex in that kind of detail... to to school children? [speaker009:] Erm [speaker002:] To tau, to teach pe, school children about sexual pleasure for instance, er er er rather than the biological facts of reproduction? [speaker009:] I think it's part and parcel of sex, and so, yes, I do think it is very important and I think it is... a process that does have to, have to be started very young, and is on-going throughout our education. [speaker002:] Now I would guess that goes further that most school curricular. I mean has anyone learnt about sexual pleasure, at er, at school? Or about er, the male and female orgasms? [speaker010:] Well obviously you learn about the male orgasm... because that's what... creates a baby but... I think she was right, the female... orgasm is never mentioned... but it's there [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker010:] or should be. Ha! [speaker002:] Yep? [speaker001:] I think it's very important that er... females should be taught that it's pleasurable for them as well, you [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] haven't just to literally lie back there and the man says what happens, when it happens, and they're to do as they're told sort of thing because that obviously develops sexual abuse, women being raped, and attitudes that lead towards these things. It's very important you're taught that, er... such feelings as respect, love, emotions all come into this... and a woman has a right to say no, if she doesn't [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker001:] want this, and it's not up to a man to decide what happens. [speaker002:] But it seems that that isn't what's being taught, and therefore,in information about that comes, well either via your own experience or talking with friends or reading womens' magazines or... I mean whe, where do we actually get our education from? Learn through [speaker003:] Like you said [speaker002:] more through magazines than I did at school, because in school I was taught nothing about pleasure, it was all very biological with a diagram of the male and the female, exactly what happened, there was nothing about... er, sexually transmitted diseases, pleasure or abortion, contraception, nothing... mentioned, only the mere basics. Now, normally in this programme when we talk about womens' magazines, people are inveighing against them because they carry various advertisements that they find offensive or exploitative, but are women's magazines actually erm... performing quite a useful job by filling in the gaps that that schools and parents are... are failing to address? What do you think? Any, yes? [speaker004:] I think they're a very dangerous mode of education because they provide a very stereo-typed image of everything, everybody that they're talking about if they're talking about sex, they presume to be able bodied, they're presumed to be white generally, they're presumed to be heterosexual, if they're talking about homosexual then, it's definitely male... lesbians [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker004:] never come into it. [speaker005:] I'm sorry, but I think these must be in the wrong magazines! The magazines that are out today are very informative of where you can get the addresses of places to go, they give both sides of homosexuality... you know, male and female as far I've seen, and definitely in the past two years or so. [speaker002:] Now, is that our best hope, is is is is the commercial provision of womens' magazine is the best hope we have for getting in, in any information we want? I mean, in an ideal world what wha what agenda would you draw up? [speaker006:] I don't think it's necessarily about teaching... er... children primarily about sex or about sexual pleasure, I think it's all, initially, about personal hygiene and then... developing that into how they can make their life safer for themself, or giving them choices to say, well I can choose to become pregnant... or not to become pregnant... and, I think it's more about choices rather than saying... orgasms and... erm... sexual pleasure, or [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] telling youngsters, when they can't actually understand the concept of having sex. [speaker002:] Mm. Yes? [speaker007:] I think if erm, perhaps if television did something more about it you'd be able to... erm, home in on the people who are excluded, erm, people who are outside... school, school situations, people [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] who don't actually go to school. Erm, looking at certain problems, a lot of erm... young women who get pregnant don't get pregnant at school, they get pregnant as soon as they leave school. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker007:] Erm, in say, an area, a a deprived area it's very often hard for women to get access to information. Basically, there's a comparison of figures that erm... one pregnancy in every two hundred and fifty six in Morningside is to women under twenty, yet one in four in, in an area like Craigmiller is to women under twenty so there's a big sort of... difference. And you need to access, you need to key in to certain areas as well, so television could be the ideal way to do that. [speaker002:] But it's not doing it at the moment, although there's [speaker007:] Well... no it certainly doesn't seem to be with, one in four girls getting pregnant. [speaker002:] Well people generally complain about sex on television... so, the way it's being presented. Up there. [speaker008:] You often find that erm... television with sex and everything, they always put it on after a certain time for children go to bed. It's like, Aids and that... like the glue sniffing advert, for instance, put on... fo... when the children go to bed, but they should be able to see that,sho, they should be able to see... look, well that's putting a message across to me as well, not just the parents, to me, I'm the one that's involved and I think that... if... well maybe the... the producers would maybe... or the people that... do television would maybe put i... to... say, seven o'clock or that, where... young children primary school age can actually sit and watch it. [speaker009:] I think if you got taught sex education in maybe, smaller groups, you know erm... if they could with individual teachers [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] er they, you know, were people that you trust and... that you could ask questions that you wouldn't be embarrassed [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] that'd help a lot. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker010:] Erm, I think if they were more honest and open, I mean... like parents and schools and stuff, it wouldn't be so difficult for people to talk about it, and... there wouldn't be as many, the jokes about it. If if everybody spoke about, the communication was better... then... it'd be a lot easier for people that deal with it. [speaker002:] Yeah? Beside you. [speaker001:] I think it's just our culture as well [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] that influences our... opinions on it, you know. And, I think it's really important that... sex education in schools should be taught by somebody that the pupils can relate to. Cos I know when I was at school we actually got our sex education in fourth year, and it was by a visiting lecturer, it was this wee old man about fifty, he said basically, this is a male body, this is a female body, nothing about sexuality, orgasms anything! It was terrible! So I [speaker002:] Aha. [speaker001:] think that's really important. [speaker002:] I'm going back to the thing about erm and boys and Mhm. today, in school we had a two members of a family planning association and er, we were in group... and we actually had... the guys in our class, they're seventeen, maybe eighteen... sitting laughing and sniggering between themselves! And that's at that age! And I would say, in our school... we've had the Aids team in and we've talked quite a lot about sex education... and they're still sniggering! They're still... having their jokes between [speaker001:] Mm mm. [speaker002:] themselves Mm. and whatever. I don't think we're ever gonna get away from that. Why do you think that is? It's... I don't know what it was, er... they hardly, we were having a discussion with the doctor, erm... none of them would put forward their opinions or their views or what they thought No. we're talking about abortion, who's responsibility it was, erm... they just... were nay prepared to put forward their opinions. Is that your common experience that that young men aren't aren't really up to this? Yeah? [speaker003:] No. I work for the same pre project as Verity and I worked with... five, fifteen, sixteen year old boys, just yesterday, and they were one of the best groups I'd ever worked with because [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker003:] they were interested. And it was contraception, which as you all know, is predominantly female... and they were... interested like, what their partners would use, what they will use... and, it was wonderful! I couldn't believe... because I always thought that it was the guys that sniggered, the guys that weren't interested [speaker002:] Mm mm. [speaker003:] and through past experience it is changing. [speaker002:] Was it a mixed group or er [speaker003:] No. No, we had five sa, boys... no mixed. [speaker002:] Do you think ma, do you think maybe that's, that's one of the answers, to separate the sexes for, for these discussions or [speaker003:] No, I think maybe if the girls had been in they might have been a bit shier and felt... you know, oh we have to act... you know, the lads. [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] You know, so maybe... but [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker004:] I think the guys snigger because they're covering up for their embarrassment... that's [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker004:] their way of breaking the ice and showing that... they just, they, that's way of coping with it. [speaker005:] I think that they may be... frightened to speak up and that... they're scared that... if they say something... that they don't know, like a lot of them don't know the facts, like today, in the same class as Janine across there, some of them didn't know even the very... the pro, progression of the male pill or anything like that, and they did learn a few things but... a again they never spoke up... and they weren't interested, but I [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker005:] think it was because of embarrassment. [speaker002:] Yeah? Up there. [speaker006:] I think, you know, I think in answer to the embarrassment question, I think although it is about that... erm, people are nay do, people wi on just are nay prepared to commit with information, I think, in areas there's a wealth of information and experience [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] and people who are prepared to discuss the issue but they just don't come out the door... to where... erm, the people are that need the information. I [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker006:] think there has to be a... er family planning centres have to more on the street, I think family planning... clinics have got the people there who are able to go out on the street. I think the other issue is that... we have to be defending... erm, the family planning centres that are being closed down, like the forty or fifty in Glasgow, the thirteen in... er Edinburgh,th the east of Scotland [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] and I think that is just gonna create... you know, a bigger ignorance amongst young people... erm, you know a bigger ignorance about contraception itself [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] which again, there is nay a hundred percent safe contraception [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker006:] to prevent pregnancy, or any other disease for that matter. And I think that's something [speaker002:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker006:] that we're gonna have to... start er... defending, you know, because we... er er, we, we have got a wealth of experience and information it just has to be shared. [speaker002:] You're not suggesting pregnancy's a disease there... are you? [speaker006:] For some of us, aye, yeah. [speaker002:] A [speaker006:] It is a disease! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker002:] In Holland... er, young teenagers are taught in school how to... how to use condoms, now I don't know whether that's taught in schools or, or classes in Scotland,i is it? [speaker001:] It should be! [speaker002:] Has anyone, I mean has anyone had that experience? Yes? [speaker007:] Well I got a video... and, like, that's all we got a few videos and the video showed you how to use a condom, and that was it. [speaker002:] And that was at school? [speaker007:] Yeah. [speaker002:] But that's probably more than a lot of people did, and everyone's being urged to use condoms, but how many people are actually... given any instruction on how to use them? Yes? [speaker008:] Well... yesterday we actually went to... to a school and... you show them how to use with a condom demonstrator and... allow them to touch the condoms, and in youth clubs you allow them to do... practically anything with them, as long as they're returned, they can blow them up, or they can [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker008:] shoot them across the room or whatever. But I think all the silliness is all part of... actually adjusting to... the condom, and something to do with the embarrassment... that because they don't know enough about it... they, they don't want to be... er, seen to be silly [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] so, they put up a front, and [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker008:] I think it's all part of it, that they will be silly initially, but they'll som, soon co, er come to realize that it's... sensible. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] In a, in our school we were shown by our guidance teacher how to put a condom... and he used a banana [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker009:] so, that just shows you that... that can happen. And we... it was fourth year when we done it and... we'd never been shown anything like that and it was interesting because... it's the sort of fact that you... you never really think about [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker009:] until yo... you're actually gonna do it, sort of thing... which I thought it was interesting. [speaker002:] Do you think er, as young women you have a right, on behalf perhaps, of women ten years younger than you, to suggest changes in what's happening now? You're obviously in, and... the other people in the, in the Brook are er... advisory peer groups, are are doing work, people are suggesting, they they they think that should be extended, what more might be done? Audrey? [speaker010:] I think it erm... it possibly could be politicized and actually funded. I was wondering if erm... the girl at the back was actually a volunteer or if she was in fact, paid for her work? Because I I do know of of various different groups who are working in this field as volunteers, there's no money... behind them there, and I mean... i i it should be a priority, it should be given that kind of priority where [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker010:] funds are made for it. [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] Voluntary. [speaker002:] It is voluntary. Yeah. I mean, yes? [speaker008:] Can I just say that, about the age thing again, erm, I also do, with the Brook Peer Group [speaker002:] Right. [speaker008:] and erm... I went to a youth club and I... I was speaking to eight year olds... and they're asking about condoms cos they've seen them in the street, so it's obviously... they're wanting to find out about it cos it's everywhere around them... even, doesn't matter what age. [speaker002:] And what will you tell an eight year old? [speaker008:] Erm, well we let them... and again we brought out the demonstrator and we let them touch condoms... erm... do anything they wanted with them as long as we got them back. But they're fi, they're going to find about it cos it's... everywhere. [speaker001:] I think one of the main points is not so much the way it's taught but who teaches it. Because, going back to the point earlier on, erm, when I was taught I say, it was a local nurse from th er, the clinic that taught us... I mean I've nothi, nothing against elder women in their fifties and whatever, but I mean, there again, one, it shouldn't always be females who teach about sex, it should be males, and it should be younger people to relate [speaker002:] Mhm. [speaker001:] to, because, one of the main points about the embarrassing er aspect, mainly boys sniggering and giggling, whatever, maybe some girls do, but it's mainly... er, males, I think a point to be made there is, it is a well known fact that boys took longer to mature emotionally than girls... and I think if it was a guy... a younger guy, maybe in his late twenties, early thirties teaching it, and if he had the sort of guts to turn round and the bravery to say... look son, what is it you're laughing at, what's so funny? I mean [speaker002:] Mm. [speaker001:] you're seventeen years old, if you're old enough to have sex surely you're old enough to... you know, think about it in a mature way. And it would ta, take someone like that just to make them think, yeah, well, you know what is so funny in... get rid of this sort of stigma about boys being immature. [speaker002:] I also work for the peer group... for the Brook Mhm. and er, we have two boys that do it with us as well and when they come out to youth clubs with us... the girls and the boys that we go and speak to... love having a male there Mhm. that they can go and... the boys have a good laugh with them, and the girls have a good laugh as well and it seems to work. A, any concluding thoughts on er... on the future for sex education in Scotland? [speaker003:] I'd agree that it's important [speaker002:] Yeah. [speaker003:] that people can... make their o, they have a balanced education which allows them then to make their own choices about, that... things aren't over, I mean if we've lived in a patriarchal society in which men are in power and that kin, and male sexuality maybe has come through more in sex education, those have been the issues that have been... co,ha have been given more importance and female issues have maybe been neglected a little bit... and now erm, with Aids as a problem... we don't want to turn out and suddenly become really homo homophobic or really, you know, right condoms, condoms, it has to be... you know, you need to kind of keep the balance so that people... are given the information and then have the freedom to make the choice themselves. [speaker004:] I think they should get rid of the stigma in condoms, cos what frightens me is that... in about ten years time my daughter will come and maybe ask if she can go on the pill and at least I can tell her... no, use a condom there's less chance of... sexually transmitted diseases, but it's my sons... they won't come and ask. [speaker002:] Yes? [speaker005:] I think the problem is, that... at the moment sex education is so arbitrary and it varies from school to school and from house to house... I think they have to make it like a core part of the curriculum, make it compulsory and make it uniform throughout the country, so everybody's getting the same education, the same quality... I think that'll help. [speaker002:] Lots of good ideas. Thank you very much for discussing this and opening up watch, what is, too often a... a a taboo area. I hope you found it interesting? I have. And thanks for joining us. Goodbye. [closing music]

[speaker001:] Okay, if you'd like to push on. Just for those of you who have just arrived, we're actually recording this session as part of a... a large spoken database which is gonna be part of a national archive... and so you're being recorded for posterity. We've got a translator for Roger... so they will be able to understand him. [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . Okay? [Roger:] So that you're gonna database then. Erm right! Er Martin see, sends his apologies I'll be actually chairing the meeting for him. Erm so... so if you'd like to... kick off. What I'd like to do is go through the minutes of the last meeting. First, for a matter of record... and each other accurate, accurately recollect... oh we're actually taping this. So if anybody would like to shout out if there's not... an accurate... well if somebody actually listened to it. Onto page one... page two... page three... page four... and five. So we all agree that's a... accurate, vaguely accurate reflection of what happened? Okay. I'd like to go back to the minutes in terms of matters arising which don't arise under the... the agenda items.... On page one I think that we will record the.... Mm!... On page two I think the first thing was, was the erm... results of the air conditioning on... Wellesey House... is still omitted. [Norman:] Yes. Yeah, I'm [Roger:] Still be waiting on them? [Norman:] Well... we've, we've had interim... or final interim reports... and wishing now that Whiskers... are actually gonna look at Dixons for me. [Roger:] Mhm. [Norman:] but erm... we're nearly there. [Roger:] Okay. [Steve:] Put against the letters that I wrote they've all been sent out. I've actually got thirty one copies of at the moment. But it's interesting to know that a lot of the copies... either must have copies, which they should have... or that they know what bin it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Steve:] It should be a long drawn out process. [Roger:] And I'm sure you'll find a way Steve. [Steve:] Very long, drawn out process. [Roger:] Mhm. With regard to any regulations on fire precautions... erm... department... well the government is sitting on those, it's unlikely they will be out much before January of next year. As soon as I get a draft I'll I'll... let you know... what the... perfections are. Okay fine. Now, V D U and eye tests I'll take over the main primary agenda. Just to give you an update of price. [Norman:] My next comment about erm... concerning... it's getting... saving tables and the like... we've actually... er agreed accommodation schedule for this year... and that's following fro from some changes in Customer Services o, in July. So, er... to programme a new network. [Roger:] In terms of review of staggered hours... erm... the review is sort of a constant one which has not really come to head yet, in terms of actually being able to write something down, so I'm we'll be able to... as soon as we, as soon I've something which we... erm, come to any conclusions in terms of staggered hours. [Norman:] The, one about the security guard, Bill... he, he's now made arrangements for... the attendance... a first aid... er, meetings. [Roger:] Mm. That is, in actual fact, a bit difficult for Mm. at the moment, you can appreciate Mm, mm mm. cos if he... he's on a twelve hour shift... and, those meetings tend to... be... have been around the same sort of time, then obviously, what we've gotta be careful about is, adding any more hours Mm. onto what he's already... taken on here. So that's, what we've got to understand is that. Mm. I think obviously, need to be making an appearance now than Yep. Mm. Suzanne you... you're reporting Martin? [Suzanne:] Yes. [Roger:] Back in the index of bulletins. Erm [Suzanne:] Erm, Paula [Roger:] Paula [speaker001:] Twenty four. [Suzanne:] Yeah, erm... she's nearly finished it, Paula, and... and it will be issued shortly... that. [Roger:] Mm. Okay, it goes onto the main primary agenda for most of the time. [Norman:] Moving onto safety, am I right? [Roger:] Yes. Mm. [Norman:] We did at erm... we've actually erm... sorted the issue abo, out about erm... gritting the car park. It erm... security are actually carrying it out and clearing the best positions... to, to do so. [Roger:] Right. [Norman:] Then, er overnight. They've also issued to me the appropriate... er protective equipment as well and so that er... they don't... you know, so I'll assume that is on the way. [Roger:] Good! And we've al, we've also [speaker001:] Sorry! [Roger:] Sorry carry on. and also erm... spoken to the police in relation to emergency evacuation in the back. The police have sor, have got a copy of our emergency evacuation procedures, at the moment we're waiting for them... to return it to us. Once they've done that then... we shall take the appropriate action needed. Right! Erm, if there's anything else? [speaker001:] Well there's the,? [Roger:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. [Roger:] John, did you get any reply from the police on that? [speaker001:] Well, yeah, I spoke to them like, on the telephone, erm... and... basically they er... and we agreed that we wouldn't take it any further... so... it er... happened to be a police officer's view... as against our view, and whilst we didn't agree with the view, er... we sent enough references to make our point known anyway. So you can take it up with the, the er... do whatever he felt necessary, but we left it at that. Erm, I mean the point the police have made has been addressed, [Roger:] Right. [speaker001:] but the reasons why have er [Roger:] Okay. [speaker001:] I'd like permission. [Roger:] Mm. [speaker001:] [whispering] I think that's supposed to mean... something, I dunno []! [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Yes, it's... yeah,. [speaker001:] Well the next point is between Roger and... John, I didn't understand at all so could you [LAUGHTER] Good!! [Roger:] I think someone's already John! Maybe you'll like this one? At erm... that's... that big lighting is there... on the basis that if the switch goes down we should have a number of telephones that still have to be available... erm and... we need to identify them... suggested by a red telephone, or using a red telephone situated somewhere. Er, and the issue was yes, we need some... for emergency use... and erm... we will also need proba, probably need some for business use. I... have spoken Joe, and I sent a memo to... a copy to Martin... er, suggesting where these should be placed and how they should be dealt with. And er... we're now sort of waiting... to get serious enough. Yeah. Mm. Okay, so have gone down there to... emphasize the importance of accidents. Erm, I'll take down the other, the main agenda cos we've... we've sort of set up a special group for the.... [Norman:] And the next point... on the... on the number of things that are being reported in... the accident books. Erm... I've in fact, become a bit of a artist on, on accident book, and between the nineteen of June ninety two... and sixteen and September, er December rather... there were twenty two... complaints logged about sickness, diarrhoea, sore throat, sore, and headaches, from the first floor... erm, of which... twenty of these complaints were from females, and two were from males. And it is er [speaker001:] It's not very popular! [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Indeed not! [Roger:] Let's hear this out. [Norman:] Merely presenting it in er... as analysis. I actually dissuaded er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Carmel:] What's the proportion of females on that floor? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Er, good question! Actually noticed, with an inkling of as well. So er... she was the one who pointed that fact to me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I wouldn't have worked it out, so... erm [Peter:] Stop digging will you! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] There haven't been any other erm... any other areas... er, of complaint with er [Roger:] Mm. [Norman:] i er in tha, in that... on the second or third floors... but I did, in fact, look at the first, second and third floors to get a comparison. Erm, the conditions were... erm... slightly different on the second floor, in the sense that... there were a few, few people and a few items of equipment... erm, and there is a relatively great density of staff on the first floor... than I would have found. But, if we then, we then considered... non air conditioning explanations... erm... which, I don't want to go into but... there's all sorts of text that one could... mention. But... if we look at the air conditioning explanations... we... we reckon that the conditions likely to lead to sickness... and, and the related illnesses that were mentioned... er... was, the low humidity... that... that we thought might er, be in the area... erm, because it dries out the and enables viruses... to enter the body more... more easily. And the, the other one... was... the... potentially reduce ventilation... because, erm, the the insufficient air supply, air flow within that area means that... the airborne viruses aren't getting shifted fast enough. And, we also face with a... a certain stance there where... if people... blame, er, turn round to us and say... there's a draft here... because er, the air conditioning's working they don't wanna sit in a draft. We have, in the past, switched the air conditioning down... which reduces the ventilation which means... creates, makes the situation worse. Erm, there's [speaker001:] [cough] [Norman:] there's two elements in relation to the air conditioning itself, er... spreading viruses, and we... take two preventative actions... one of which is that we spray all the air conditioning ducts work quarterly... with, what's known, as a virucide and... I relate that to the equivalent of sticking a... a toilet block in the toilet, it kills all... all known airborne germs sort of thing. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] And the other thing is, is that all the air... that... is within the building is directly supplied from outside the building... and is then extracted... extracted to the exterior of the building. We don't actually recirculate the air within the building, so there's no business of... people on the second floor giving germs to people on the first floor, and then people... giving germs to people on the ground floor. So, those are the actions that we actually take with the air conditioning itself. Erm [Roger:] Can I just so, can I still [Norman:] the [Roger:] pick them up? Sorry! [Norman:] Yeah, sorry! I was looking at actions [Roger:] Yeah. [Norman:] next [Roger:] Yeah. [Norman:] but if you've got any questions on that front? [Roger:] Mm. A, just a question of whether the... sorry, you've done all these statistics, whether actually the first floor was, seemed to be a problem? Statistically. [Norman:] Well... ah, that's one of the things I'm leading to. [Roger:] Mm. [Norman:] This was, this was, if you like... a record of the eye approach, we went round, we felt the air and... erm, er made judgement, in the same that people like to be making judgements [Roger:] Mm. [Norman:] about how stuffy it is, and the like... when we agreed that is was... erm... not as good as it could be, may I just say... erm, but we haven't got any, if you like,... er statistical measurement, and one of the actual points that were starting to do now... is we're actually going to start reporting tu, temperature and humidity on the first, second, and third floors within G P House. And we're gonna start publishing that information. In actual fact, [Steve:] Can I just ask why you're ignoring us lot on the ground floor? [Norman:] Why? [Peter:] Well you've [Steve:] I mean [Peter:] got the doors open... presumably! [speaker001:] I don't know why you're getting so! [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Because, I'm responding directly to... accident... books, and similar conditions. [Steve:] Ah, I see! [Norman:] And the conditions on the ground floor are somewhat different. [Roger:] Cos it's mainly men on the ground floor they don't [Steve:] I see, yes! [Roger:] complain you see! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I think I've been sadistically grouped! [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Erm [Roger:] But er [Norman:] but erm... anyway... I've forgotten what I was saying now. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] I be, so one of the things we're gonna do is publish that information on a regular basis. Erm... and we have in fact, done some tests on the first and second floor since... we did this eye test... and... er, humidity is in fact, within the... the er... the Health and Safety legislation, it's within tolerance. Presumably the temperatures are too. But, one of things that we are discovering is that when people complain about drafts... er, we've been switching the air conditioning up and down to balance it up to suit the individuals needs. What we may have to do is actually balance the air conditioning's needs up... to suit... the building, if you like, rather than individuals concerned, and then we'll have to address the individuals concerns the same, in terms of moving the desk, or moving the person... if they're in a draft. Erm, and we also need obviously, to educate people there. The consequences of them wanting the drafts to be turned down. Because, if we don't actually ventilate the building... then, we're not actually gonna solve the problem. [Roger:] Mhm. [Norman:] And we're gonna get hot spots and cold spots. [Roger:] Fine. In terms of your research on the... the action book itself, or th, or the reports or whatever... you said, sorry, there's nineteen on the first floor you say? [Norman:] I gave you a copy of the notes actually, Mark. [Roger:] No, no you said at the start of this. [Norman:] There's erm... there's twenty... beg your pardon, there's twenty two complaints [Roger:] Right. [Norman:] that we had in a six month period. [Roger:] Yeah. [Norman:] of which... er er, that was to do with sickness, diarrhoea, sore throats, sore [Roger:] [cough] [Norman:] dizziness, headaches [Roger:] Right. [Norman:] which could be air conditioning related. [Roger:] Right! We don't know whether they're on, they're on the first, second or third? [Norman:] That's just the first floor. [Roger:] They were all on the first floor Mark. [Norman:] No complaints on the second floor, or the third floor, or the ground floor. [Carmel:] What? [Roger:] Well that's fairly sig titi fa, significant innit? One of the four floors has a got a problem. Yeah. [Carmel:] Roger, wasn't I... correct in thinking that Paula was also going to look at... erm... not just accident reports, other sickness for the area, to actually [Roger:] Yeah I I did look at it from... from... from after Christmas and there have been no complaints at all, in the accident book... up until the eighteenth of March... that were of that nature. There was a Mm mm. exact Ten of that eleven people in the last two weeks, sort of, complaining about but they don't always... let me know so that I can document it, that's the problem. Yeah. Where is that, still on the fou, first floor? Oh yeah. So Mainly in F two and F three rooms. [Carmel:] It's now, like the stomach cramp rather than [Roger:] Mm. [Carmel:] and... it's not people that have eaten, not... [LAUGHTER] certainly not the restaurant [], what should I say [Roger:] It's the food, the food! [Carmel:] but they're not actually, having been to lunch and [Roger:] Yeah. [Carmel:] I know, for a fact, one person us, never uses canteen at [speaker001:] One? [Roger:] Well it's, yeah [speaker001:] One. [Roger:] I mean the problem is, I mean, that the significance of the com, the sort of the numbers of those are still particularly low Mm. and trying to... one was... one would assume, that to a certain extent, if you've got a problem with air conditioning that we would... we would have a higher, a higher incidence... of erm... of those sort of complaints. Mm. And we don't. No, what I'm saying is, I don't think from the accident book you're getting a true picture because people don't always report it, they'll be off several days afterwards. Right. Just don't compla, I just wondered whether that was actually [Norman:] Ah, yeah, again [Roger:] But the information we [Norman:] all [Roger:] do have does amount to something. And something [Norman:] Well it's something that we're prepared to actually act on here is [Roger:] Yeah. [Norman:] erm, the thing about it is... is that... I mean, one of... we we've at the minute we've been faced with... with some individuals... reckoning that they have er... rashes forming... around the face... er... in a number of areas... and there's... an indication that, and it's nothing more than that, that it could actually be to do with the laser printers and people sitting near them... in the light. People suffering from dry skin, but it's the only wo, odd one case or another that actually reported, but it... we don't know how widespread these things are. [Roger:] We've had Wintams in... [Norman:] But they're actually, they actually [Roger:] last week. [Norman:] made out a thermal comfort test... on G P House... over the last few days... er, and we're now awaiting their results. [Roger:] And that's really to look at, the sort of the, the dry skin... issues and so on? I think the thing we've gotta be careful about, is also trying to er... i if we... ask everybody put all their analysis as such, we could start thinking... panicking or whatever Mhm. for all the wrong reasons, so we're trying to sort of pick a number of tests which will determine whether there's a problem with air conditioning and it's humidity or... or er... or if the temperature. And if we can pin those down, and as Roger said, we've also now, over the last few weeks co begun carrying out erm... regular testing two or three times a day now on each of the floors and looking at the humidity Mm. in there. And we've gotta,wha what we'll do we'll get those set up at the... sort of... the appropriate working temperatures, and working humidity and then we will have to deal with people on an individual basis, if basically, they're uncomfortable because of draft or whatever it might be. I think that's what we're aiming to do now, get things set up as a standard... er, operating... erm, levels, having done that... then we begin [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] to isolate them. [speaker001:] Oh sure! [Roger:] As I say I'm... [LAUGHTER]... I'm not convinced that it's air conditioning... erm, but then again... there's more detail, more data that's required. Next twenty,. Mm. I mean, if they want,. So essentially, what you're saying is we've got the erm... the sort of environmental checks in... place, to help Yes indeed! track down,ho, home Yeah. home in on the [Norman:] Yes. [Roger:] But it will take time. [Norman:] Eventually. [Roger:] And I've done myself a on that reckoning, because until we've got that sorted anyway. [Norman:] Wintams actually... er quarterly check the air... within G P House, and the water within G P House. [Roger:] Mm. [Norman:] And erm... to that extent... we can respond very rapidly if... those results aren't within the, the limits... defined. And we've never had... any problems in that area at all, so, to that extent. We are taking, if you like, all preventative medsi, medicine we need to take... and... always difficult to in fact, to pin these things down. [Roger:] Mm. Is there any er, other things anybody wants to... ah John, did you want? [speaker001:] No. [Roger:] What I was gonna suggest is that, we actually put something in the bulletin, not in the sense of, well, you know... please report your illnesses kind of thing, but... if we just make people aware of actually this sort of environmental control thing would be a good idea. Yeah, I think that's a fair comment. And the and the measures that we're here, that's a good idea actually! [Peter:] Been my major struggle for a long time now. [Roger:] Yeah. Mm.... Mm! Mostly definite the restaurant. [Katie:] [LAUGHTER] What have I done []! [Peter:] Not bad! We would do it! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Okay, move... on to first aid. Do we know whether we have the updated [Katie:] Yes we have. [Roger:] We have. [Peter:] On the erm... there won't be the first aid room over the... we're looking to move that to the first floor. [Roger:] Oh I'm sorry! Can you speak up then? [Peter:] Oh sorry! Have I... [Roger:] Mm mm. [Peter:] Have they liaised with you? [Katie:] Not yet, no. Ha! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Peter:] [LAUGHTER] That's alright then []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Katie:] I gave the list to... Martin... at the last meeting. And attendance is much better cos I think... the message is finally getting across now. [Roger:] Sorry! Can you... er mm. [Peter:] Yeah, just saying that when we move the erm... the first aid room to the, to the first floor... from House. [Roger:] That's a definite is it? [Peter:] Erm, yes. I erm... as much as anything else so that we don't block a fire exit on the gro, on, in the basement. [Roger:] Mm. Mm. Have you seen the timetable for that. [Peter:] Er no, not yet. [Roger:] I'm sure you'll tell us er [Peter:] Yeah. [Roger:] Okay, fire? [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] Involving the fire, the exit th there, we actually talked about... er, issuing a memo to all the branches... and telling them there ought not be electrical equipment on overnight. Mhm. [Peter:] I counted something like... and at the moment it appertains just to the telephone system and regard to the enquiry system. And... but, very shortly the branches are gonna be... getting some more appropriate, and it's gonna be a lot more that needs to be se... sort of kept on overnight. [Roger:] Mm. [Peter:] But it might be more appropriate to wait until... nearer the time to send a memo, I don't know. Erm... on the audit side both Karen and I have been round to all the branches in order to deal with our old equipment. Erm... on October ninety four I'll be, guess there won't be any old prices in the. [Roger:] You've been round to all the branches? [Peter:] Yeah. It's... on, on a different project but we were [Roger:] Mm. [Peter:] incorporating that on the way round. [Roger:] With regard to leaving... electrical equipment on overnight, Mark, erm... once or twice... be nice if you already be bought it to my attention that people are leaving things on... erm, now, when we've had this discussion that most of these... items are safe. But erm... I th... they are worried... certainly, one or two of them are worried, but er... some of this equipment is left on, and left on unnecessarily... and we ought to be encouraging people to switch off what isn't [speaker001:] That's right. [Roger:] doesn't have to be left on overnight. Erm, sort of a general memo about the, just er literally... good housekeeping if nothing else. If you're not using the equipment... or you don't need to use the equipment overnight then please turn it off. Mm. Er Presumably you get some card license installed, so... mind you, you'd the outcome! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Erm, yes I think, I think, you know, immediately you're thinking of doing it the branches and obviously you're running po, pretty big in [Peter:] Mm. [Roger:] the way I see it, anyway, you know, if there are... things that are meant to be left on. Er, as far the... these building are concerned... I think your point is valid, I mean, I think probably printers, I think that you suggest are left on... because you never know when it'll be to. Er, only got one persons Assume the responsibility? But, other than that, yeah... I think you're right. Presumably with an arrow, you have to Mark, Mark. I think there are some things Mark that have to be left on [Peter:] Mm. [Roger:] as an necessity there... for all these... working overnight. But those that aren't... erm... should be switched off and whether there's a way Mm. of sort of having some kind Perhaps I'll, perhaps I'll liaise with Chris Yeah. through his team and see how it, see if there's Yeah. anything you also probably need to liaise with erm... probably with Mike Yeah. and you know, find out what they're doing, but... general. I've gotta liaise with the information centre in... the computer centre tomorrow... see if there's any guidelines we could probably use. [speaker001:] There may be some kind of notice on them that says, you know, these machines should not be switched and then everything would be switched off. [Roger:] Mhm. [speaker001:] If they came round [Peter:] Mm. [speaker001:] I mean, that's the sort of thing. It's [Roger:] Yeah, our ones' actually got something on, especially one of the machines it's got little spots across the screen saying do not. [speaker001:] Do not switch off. [Peter:] Switch off. [speaker001:] Yeah! But I mean [Roger:] Yeah. [speaker001:] so they wouldn't switch it off. [Roger:] But are others Still, still switch off! [speaker001:] Oh do they? [LAUGHTER] But they're very! [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Okay, fine! Okay. Onto any other business. Ah sorry! Have you... done the, done the agenda? Mm. Finished that. I think Pa Paula on the 's information. Er... she said it was done. And she did check, and we weren't telling them, no we did? Mm. Do you think it's a representative coming to this meeting rather than just simply [Steve:] think they actually go off site [Roger:] the information? [Steve:] in places like [speaker001:] I presume, I presume that they, they'd be the only one. [Roger:] Oh right! [speaker001:] Yes. [Norman:] The th [Roger:] Ye Yep! [Norman:] The collapsing chair [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] is erm... is a mystery! And it's not just a mystery to me, but a mystery to the individual I spoke to. Er... the chair being the offender, given the chair that collapsed underneath her... er, she couldn't, or she couldn't... explain to me how the chair managed to collapse underneath her! So, I'm afraid I wasn't able to do a great to do a great deal more on that. The only thing I would say is, is that... we're looking to... er start in the next quarter... various plans for maintenance routines... one of which will be o, actually on furniture. Er, there's a number of issues that will start cropping up with furniture fairly soon. And, it's things like that I ne, hope and anticipate that we can actually. I can only guess that... for erm... some reason... the bolts on the back of the chair fell off, or came lose... and when she sat on it... she leaned on the back, in an unusual position... and fell through! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Mm mm. Mhm. Okay. Let's go onto COSHE regulations. We've had a meeting on COSHE and we've sort of put the erm... the... revisions of COSHE into, into action. Basically this is updating the original COSHE, COSHE re register. And Katie is the only one that sent a reply back! That's very prompt of you Katie! [Suzanne:] Gold star! [Steve:] Okay, point taken! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Suzanne:] I don't think the date was due actually was, wasn't it? [Roger:] No, it's not yet. It's erm, the week [Suzanne:] Yeah. [Roger:] of... let's look in my diary. If ever that's forgotten, once that's done, again it will be erm... the up-to-date part of the... COSHE.... And the fire and train records, I'm not sure where. [speaker001:] Well, the meeting that we're doing, all branch [Roger:] Mm. [speaker001:] probably [Roger:] Mm. [speaker001:] . And I'll take that... management one. [Roger:] No, er dust mites? [speaker001:] Yeah, er can I go back to this point before [Roger:] Mm mm. [speaker001:] about erm...... I've actually got some... some cleansing wipes for, for [Suzanne:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I was actually going to... give to you Sue, so that you could test them but I understand you've already got some new ones? [Suzanne:] Yeah. You're talking about to send some aren't you? [speaker001:] Yeah. I'll, I'll drop that off with you today... later on. [Suzanne:] Fine. [Roger:] What exactly is the intention... i in the...? [speaker001:] Well, we'll see how much instigated first. [Roger:] Are they not in [speaker001:] Cos they won't be used to just [Suzanne:] ... cleaning telephones up like that one! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Foot and mouth []! [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Well how many joint telephones are there? Sorry? How many joint telephones can you have? There seem to be a number in Client Services. [Suzanne:] Yeah. [Dianne:] Mm. [Suzanne:] In some teams there's [Roger:] It's obviously [Suzanne:] about four [Roger:] Oh! [Suzanne:] people share a phone. [Roger:] Yeah. Mm. [LAUGHTER] Sorry? That's what I used to do with them! Yes. Now that you've gone. Well [speaker001:] I'll talk to Sue about that one! Right, Sue's gonna have two goes next time. [Roger:] Still haven't told me what I've gotta do with them! [Suzanne:] We could try it on our floor couldn't we? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Suzanne:] See how we get on. [Roger:] Mm. What exactly are you trying? That the people complaining they so sore throats, sickness and diarrhoea! [speaker001:] That's exactly what... been the problem down there. [Roger:] Oh! Oh it's good money [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] telephones! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] You can go and have a look. [Roger:] Especially where those people are passing the germs down the telephone! It's a good idea, but I don't... really see what you're actually sort of measuring. Have been [speaker001:] Well I wasn't here, so I won't take any of the blame for this at all! [LAUGHTER] It's a really good job whether yo sa sa say so or not! It could be sort of spread throughout the company. [Norman:] May maybe a hygiene requirement...? [Roger:] What, sickness and diarrhoea? It's to provide, to provide people with the opportunity use the wipes if they require as a safety precaution. [speaker001:] Oh we'll sort it out anyway, Sue shall we? [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] Right! On the dust mites [Roger:] On the dust mites, yeah. [Norman:] Erm... the cleaning of the carpets on the first and second floors erm... they obviously... fumigate them... erm, but we don't... do the dry clean like we do the carpets over here. Er, what we'll do is spray the carpets... erm... quarterly. Erm... one of the problems that we've been facing in the past, certainly, in G P House is the amount of stuff that's on the floor... and therefore we haven't actually been able to tackle these things... very effectively. Erm... but one of the things that I am doing is over the next quarter... with, various people... begin to review the cleaning schedules of what they actually do, whether we... clean them on a... on a more frequent basis... rather than just responding that particular area. [Roger:] Get in the dust busters couldn't you for this one! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] There's actually another complaint this morning I've had on... the first floor of G P House. It's only the second offence according to the last What's wrong with this first floor? I mean when they gonna ... [LAUGHTER] It's my wing as well! Erm [speaker001:] Militants in there! [Roger:] so I'll be coming to see you. [speaker001:] Okay. Okay, fine. [Roger:] Okay. If we move on to the main agenda. For the sake of this. [speaker001:] Oh! [Roger:] Erm, as I mentioned with the... group visitors... we've started up a branch action group fo specifically focused on the sort of branch issues. Aren't we just leaving that till last? This is basically to ensure that the, the branches are... complying er to legislations. Er, we're looking at, to whether... the branch and the manager, sort of be... take a more active role including the... the branch sector. Because at the moment there's no one looking at... health and safety on day to day basis and... in any of the branches. There's just point if anyone, someone from head office goes in. Mm. And what this actually came out on was this overall health and safety assessment that we've been doing for G P... erm, we've actually just filed that... overall group focused on the... the branches as a potential issue... and I know it's been very su su successful on a number of times. What we try do and is actually sort of focus in on the branches so that so, to try and get try and get all the strains together. [speaker001:] [whispering] What are the issues are we dealing with []? [Roger:] And we've had one meeting be, between, just really detailed some of the, some of the issues that we find... and focus on them a bit more. Mm. [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] Erm mm, the other thing I was gonna mention which is, which we've sort of really gone through is the air conditioning and that we're actually sort o, we are doing... the monitoring of the environment and all, and have had Wi Wintams in... erm doing special exercises for us. Er, I think we should look for... through in the terms of the bulletin. The only thing for me is really just to bring you up-to-date in terms of the V D U project and where we are with that. Erm... so, if you remember this is the reassessment of work stations. Erm, [clears throat] the particular one I'm focusing on here is sort of the, the vision screening part of it cos the assessment of work stations is gonna be a longer term thing, we're going back to pre... where they've actually sort of ticked the various boxes on the sheets... and said this is like that and so we are collating that information currently. But, in terms of the... the actual vision screening itself... erm, we've iden, those people who've been identified as V D U, V D U users'... we've had about five hundred and fifty replies to that, from the V D U, V D U, users' . Erm, of that five hundred and fifty approximately four hundred have requested eye tests... or vision screen tests, sorry! Erm, we've, we've had about approximately seventy tests take so, taken... place so far. I don't know an anybody's in this group's... partaking in this? But it's basically down on the... down on the first floor, we've set aside a... a room which... erm... the people from the Occupational Health Centre... here in Harlow, come up... and do vision screening for us on a regular basis they come... when do they come? Once a week or Erm, it's once a week, but I think they're coming in... the they're here twice this week... er, and I think, it's as and when they can, so if it's more than once a week then they will be here. Yep. Erm, [clears throat]... right! So, of the er, er yeah, of the people who were identified as being users' , V D U users' we've had about eight percent of the replies have actually been returned, so we are chasing some. Mm. Some outstanding ones. Yo, for your own information, as th, say health and safety group, in terms of people who ha, who undertake vision screening and then get referred on from a, for a full... full eye tests... it's usually around Mm. between sort of two and four percent tend to get referred on. Erm, and we have had [clears throat], I think about four or five people who are currently being referred on Mhm. er, in terms of eye tests. And what happens to them, again, through the Occupational Health Centre,th they arra arrange for an optician to give them a full, full eye test... and then we get a report back on that situation. I've, certainly had no a, [clears throat] excuse me, no adverse comments back in terms... the vision screening etcetera, itself as er, people have sort of responded to it... seems to have had a... so something which will be quite good... sort of go going along in the right spirit. Have you any feedback anyone... at all? Have you ? No, not yet. Mm.... a report from... vision screening. Okay. Though it not be... for a safety to anybody else in terms of operations, I think.... I had erm... those, well it's actually been reported in the accident book, erm... a girl tripped, and Ted, Mick, John, and... Roger Ah yes! Yes! are aware of this. Erm, the wires have clipped up now. She fell and hit her head, or something. Erm, you say that they're going to tidied in July,thi this year Erm, yes. when the moves take place? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Not all of them, no! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Roger:] depends when it happens, I mean... we we're still waiting to find out where some of the changes, erm... in terms of layouts and the like are gonna be done. Erm, but following on from that, wherever we... change layouts now we try and be very specific about... organizing the cable management up front and, so that they don't present any hassles. Erm, in the Customer Services area... once we've seen what changes Customer Service wish to make... during this year that they... myself and Roger and gonna find that out, hopefully, tomorrow, erm, then we'll... be more specific about the areas that we have to address on th, the first and second floor. We could, that's... one of our biggest areas [Suzanne:] [cough] [Roger:] anyway... erm... and if P D... er, remains a problem, or isn't gonna be addressed as far as the changes I've been told since, I was told yesterday then that they wouldn't be... it's in which case then we'll address Mm. that... erm before... the other moves take place. I, cos I know our people, and Ted have... are reluctant, they think it's a danger to... sit there, the wires are coming down already! Erm Th, this is the cable wires is it? Mm. Er Oh! Yes it is. Erm, the cables? I, I can't comment specifically to that. Er, we'll have to take that as it goes. Se I send somebody up there and they cou, you know, put them up as best they could. Erm... cabling is a problem... on most of the first floor Mm. because it's... the one area of G P House where there is a co... wide scale movements take place. Mm. But there is. But you said, when we do a move, we do try to, you know, where we can Mm. by... and tidy the cabling as well. And there was a memo to John from yourself, tenth of Jan, that my manager has passed to me, it said you'd given two options that you could go in on Saturday and... erm That's alright, I mean also that tha, that's, that's the activity that we're trying to sort of resume... erm [speaker001:] That's the main [Roger:] erm [speaker001:] thing. [Roger:] but... that comes after... any moves that I'm making... because... clearly, they need somebody that can be So do you know... what the price is going be? sort of, to put it, I'm gonna be is that as from tomorrow we will have identified... what erm... desking and so on will be moved during the reorganization... erm, and obviously... any of the desking that isn't gonna be moved until the organization, we'll be tidying up the cables. The others, and that maybe just a question of tying them up and Mhm. making sure they're safe, even though they'll still be, sort of, visually... erm... they'll be seen, erm they'll be actually tidied on the desk. But... er, the others, anything that isn't gonna be changed where the cabling is untidy, is dangerous, will have to picked up before that. Right! And that's the sort of thing that we will be identifying as from tomorrow. Tomorrow. Then we'll be putting it back there, on exactly how and when... action ca can Oh, okay. be addressed, hopefully. [Steve:] Yeah. It is, it is a problem, it's not necessarily [Roger:] [cough] [Steve:] something that can be addressed wi with a few cable ties, cos sometimes tying the cables together make a more of a... danger than [Roger:] Yeah. [Steve:] leaving them loose. Because, you know... like if people can get a foot caught round them, if they're individual they... they come out [Roger:] Mm. [Steve:] and sort of those, will get, people trip over. [Roger:] Mm. Okay. Well clearly, we need to... you know, the long term moves which we you're obviously taking of in terms of the long running programmes is fine. But, I think once you've decided to schedule it there's areas we still look at, and the managers are saying... this looks dangerous, then we have to. [Steve:] Yes, in hand, yes it seems [Roger:] Mm, yes I think we've done that. [Steve:] specific areas [Roger:] That's actually been identified and that's, that's the route we're taking on. Right! [speaker001:] What else? [Roger:] Aha. I see. now, is it? [speaker001:] Erm, yes. [Roger:] Any other safety?... We'll move onto the accident books, any things, or any issues that anybody's seen from the reports... action? [Peter:] Erm, something came up yesterday... i in the catering unit... found out that erm... a first-aider in area, area hadn't actually been reporting all minor accidents, erm, and I think she felt perhaps they were a bit too minor to report. Erm, I'm wondering maybe due to the small amount of incidents actually in accident book, whether this is... perhaps a general trend going on throughout? I did speak to Paula yesterday, and she said she was gonna speak to you Suzanne [Suzanne:] Mm. [Peter:] about bringing it up in the next erm... meeting. [Suzanne:] I was gonna say the same to you. [Peter:] Yeah. But erm [Suzanne:] Generally, I I... enter in the accident book if I give any treatment. Erm... had she be giving treatment? [Peter:] Yeah. [Suzanne:] Should do, I think. [Peter:] I think she felt wi, you know, some of them are sort of like, a bit unimportant. She's now erm, aware of the situation. [Roger:] Mm. [Peter:] But erm... I was just concerned... you know, that [Roger:] Mm. [Peter:] perhaps it it might be going on [Roger:] Mm. Right, well I think [Peter:] elsewhere. [Roger:] it's only... if you can reinforce it [Suzanne:] You know, there's that and then you can also [Roger:] within the... first-aiders and the, and obviously to try and... try and drive it to them on that... issue. Well I did wanna follow this up with some other items [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] of a person and need to write how important it was, the little ones in the accident book, but looking in the erm... erm... the handbook for the company it says that an accident form should be filled in... and Mm. handed to the Office Services Manager, so, that's not the procedure we follow at the moment is it? No. Because I mean, I haven't seen an accident [speaker001:] No. [Roger:] form. [Peter:] No. [Roger:] So it's, what is the procedure? Is there a written procedure that says... if you deal with it then put it in the accident book? Say, the first-aider's off sick [speaker001:] Mhm. [Roger:] who's responsibility is it then? Yeah, okay. Well the procedure is anything, that's if there's an accident which... does require treatment from the first-aiders, I mean then... I think we should send it off don't you? So that means that [clears throat] what we've had forms being filled in? Yeah. Mm. I mean, in terms of the new issue of the handbook which is coming out in due course... [clears throat], that's clarified Oh right! and... I think it was one of things which never really took off in terms of the accident Mm. book. Well What I was just looking for a reference for it, you know. in terms of what should be reported and what shouldn't be? Yeah. Cos one of the things that I said, you know, just... when I was looking through the last... five or six months is that... it did seem... er, to be inconsistent in terms of certain areas like... the first floor, there's an awful lot of reporting going on... but, there was very little from the other, from the other areas. Erm... I... I, I think the same is the case was that, you know Mm. [speaker001:] Is there one book per floor? [Roger:] Is that how it was? Is it one Okay. book per floor, is that how it works or [Suzanne:] Just one book pe per first-aid room I think. So we've just got one book in the whole building. [Roger:] Is that right? As far I know, yeah. [Peter:] Yeah that's right. [speaker001:] That's a problem. Maybe they can't find the book. [Roger:] Yeah. Well that's probably a good point actually really once you've only got a [Katie:] And course, we have more accidents in the [LAUGHTER] kitchen []! [Roger:] Right! No, no, I wasn't [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] I wasn't trying to! [Katie:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, but []! [Peter:] Yes, there are! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Oh well, you might as well say that! [Katie:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Yep? [Peter:] I don't mind. [Katie:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Okay, well let's perhaps look into that see whether.. there's a, a more appropriate way. Cos I know... the principle used to be that is er, it was in the first aid room... cos that's where all the first aid treatments [Katie:] When you [Roger:] are based. [Katie:] But then if there's no form to remind somebody they'll fill it in the accident [Peter:] Yeah. [Katie:] book, then it's gonna get forgo, forgotten from one day to the next. [Peter:] I think that's what happened with this particular person as well. [Roger:] Because she's not been going to the first aid room. [Peter:] She's not been going [Katie:] Yeah. [Peter:] there. So, she's writing them down, and then forgotten about them. [Roger:] Yeah. Okay, fine! Well then look at that to see if there's a... more appropriate way of doing it. [Suzanne:] Shall I speak to Paula about that then? [Roger:] Yeah. Paula, and perhaps we'll bring it up in a first aid. [clears throat] Get that easily. Well that was another thing, one of the new first-aiders we've got, erm... didn't know where the accident book was and I thought was quite an important thing that would probably have been brought up [Suzanne:] Yes. [Roger:] at, at the initial training. So [Suzanne:] Who's that? [Roger:] Debbie.... [Suzanne:] Ah yes! Okay. [Peter:] You know what I mean, that is down to the individual really is that er... that they should actually find out... and i, that needs to be highlighted to all [Roger:] Mm. [Peter:] of them. [Roger:] Well if there's only one for each building then [Suzanne:] Well perhaps when each new first-aider... qualifies they get like an induction pack or something. [Roger:] Get a tour or Mm. [LAUGHTER] something []! [Suzanne:] Yeah. [Roger:] Mm mm. [Peter:] Are you intending approaching health and safety in... clients in the... Employee Handbook? [Roger:] Er, yeah, and we're looking. [Peter:] Right. [Steve:] Is it gonna very released t to everyone? [Roger:] Aha. In due course. [Steve:] Mm. [Roger:] Mm. The section on health and safety could be... could be quite large especially in the light of further installation. Yeah, we've actually... er, way we've designed is that erm, it's actually a sort of... [clears throat], it's inserted in the ham handbook itself as actually a, sort of separate removal section so they can [speaker001:] Aha. [Roger:] use it sort of separately.... Okay. Well, in terms of the [speaker001:] Literally... I think the only I said is the thing we get from the branches. [Roger:] Mm. Well I think that [speaker001:] [clears throat] [Roger:] well needs a... I think one of the things we discussed in the branch action group meeting is actually, weren't quite sure what the... cos [LAUGHTER] we'd been sending out [] for quite less than ten of the branches because... to... do something to them which was... mm... apparently lots of them in but erm... well they keep disappearing so that the... what we've been talking about is to try and get some points... erm... health and safety station... within the branch, which actually just has all this stuff for it. At least everybody knows where to go and... it's all there an... but obviously that has some difficulty in terms of where to locate it and where to. That's something to look at.... Okay. In terms of actual accidents themselves, anybody... raising things or anything? I did erm, mention, I think on one of them which was the erm... Tim, this is the upstairs, I did actually mention that when I saw it to... to Roger. He was very heroic, but erm... you probably did address Yes. that one. Yeah. Okay. If there's nothing, apart from that... we can move onto... first aid. Suzanne anything? [Suzanne:] Not really, no [Roger:] No. [Suzanne:] this time. [Roger:] Any other issues in terms of first aid, Mark? about first aid improving the Right. Are we... i in terms of the first, first-aider availability does that tend to work? Okay, in terms of people are aware that they can their first ai, where they can get first aid and... don't tend to have any reports these days. [Suzanne:] Well I think the erm... you said there was like a plan on each notice board with first-aiders and fire wardens on each floor [Roger:] Mm. [Suzanne:] but they look a bit out of date at the moment. [Roger:] Mm. They're constantly [Suzanne:] Mm. [Roger:] But certainly when we first went into first aid and we used to get regular calls in personnel all about, oh where's the first aid? But since it happened, in these days [Suzanne:] No. [Roger:] people seem to finding... the sort of first-aider. I think we've got quite an extensive coverage now. Okay. Right, if we move onto fire. Who's in charge of fire? Jonathan! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] What, you want one? [sneeze] I've got nothing other,... I don't know whether anybody's aware of what went on last Wednesday and probably that, I mean there could have been... there was a, sort of a, a cable that, a mains cable that heated up and started smoking... and er, we had to deal with that. But erm, fortunately it didn't heat up, but we're looking at... erm, it didn't catch fire, but we're looking at er er, some safety features that we may actually have to install in the plant room... to erm... to actually identify these... these problems er, somewhat earlier. It was just happened to be spotted by Richard, fortunately, whilst he was... erm, between jobs and actually being up a... steps, walked in a saw the smoke coming out of one of the er, main switch... areas. At that stage he didn't seem to have any effect on anything in terms of erm, alerting... anybody, so erm... we need to er, we need to deal with that with more action than we ha have at the moment. [Roger:] Mm. [speaker001:] Actually, I I think you're all aware of, that we caused some number of issues on that Wednesday afternoon... and for that half of our systems. [Norman:] I suppose it erm... did widen so, the... the wider view on that... is at... that it is important that we carry out the possible appliance testing on a regular basis. This, this could have led, led to a very nasty electrical fire! Erm... and, to that extent, I'll reiterate, that we are in fact... working our way through... all of the [speaker001:] [cough] [Norman:] the electrical equipment in the building... in terms of appliance testing and the like. [speaker001:] We're also, Mark, reviewing our preventative, our maintenance systems... erm, and we may [clears throat], excuse me! We may well... be extending the number of er... shut downs that we over the weekend so that we can carry out more extensive... maintenance on the electrical systems... around the organization. Certainly bits that look pretty interesting... I should imagine... and a report on the end of the day with a number of er... proposals... and actions for er... hopefully, preventing this happening again. [cough] [Roger:] Mm. I think it just erm... also demonstrates our dependence on the... bigger systems in that regard. Or we tend to [speaker001:] Yes it does! [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] grind to a halt []! [clears throat] [Norman:] But not, but not as much as on the electrical systems. [Roger:] Well no! Mm. [speaker001:] I would think Mark knows that! [Roger:] Yeah, I was... er... [clears throat] being naive and thinking of them, in the same capacity [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] actually Norman, though I'm not... terribly... precise in my technical... technical. Okay. Good! Any other [Dianne:] On that point I've got [Roger:] Yes. [Dianne:] quite a few, dare I start with [Roger:] Mhm. [Dianne:] them? Erm [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Dianne:] hiding them from! Erm... apparently there was a training course held on the twenty eighth of Jan... erm... the procedures were actually out of date at that time, and Mike on security? Is he the head the... fire [Roger:] The deputy. [speaker001:] Mike is, yeah. [Dianne:] the deputy, he's actually going to [Roger:] He's [Dianne:] issue erm... the floor plans... erm... and procedures to everyone which... they still haven't received. Erm [speaker001:] Will that be, will that... please? [Dianne:] I don't really know who yo... to direct to... cos... do the fire marshals not meet regularly? [speaker001:] Only to try and [Roger:] Probably we should organize it. [Dianne:] I think they, no. Yeah. Erm... another thing on the erm... fire warden training it was stated the company did not want... erm, fire wardens to use the equipment... around the building, whereas the notices say... actually states, erm, attack fire if possible with appliances provided without taking personal risk. Erm, but the training contradicted that and said that they... they showed them how they should be used, but, but they... shouldn't tackle a fire... and they [Roger:] Mhm. [Dianne:] wanted to know which [Roger:] Mm. [Dianne:] they should be doing. [Roger:] Mm. Ya. Mhm. Yeah. Like she says... I think the position is exes effectively what we're trying to reinforce is that we don't want any heros [Dianne:] Mm. [Roger:] in a sense of leaping into the flames and trying to battle with it. Erm, but obviously if somebody can take some assertive action... that stops the fire [Dianne:] Yeah. [Roger:] down and that's a difficult... that's a judgement that have to make. And clearly, in terms of the fires as a particular... the rationale for them being there is to [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] can get out of the building, which is why [Dianne:] Mm. [Roger:] the position of our doors... are attached to the system is the... fire exit's actually blocked, by fire... and that's their only exit at least you got some opportunity to.... You was quite right. You said I can do with some clarification which we... seek to do. [Dianne:] Erm [Steve:] So, are the fire appliances only supposed to be used by the [speaker001:] [cough] [Steve:] by the wardens then? [Dianne:] Mm. [Steve:] Is that not sort of I mean, I wasn't aware that anybody wasn't... supposed to pick up a fire appliance or not. [speaker001:] Again, it's a similar sort of issue which is... it's it is difficult to put across that... if you notice you haven't got a fire warden there and that's your only [Steve:] Right. [speaker001:] exit, then you use the fire [clears throat] fire, fire extinguisher. [Roger:] Though obviously one of the things that you worry about with fire extinguishers are you using the right one... with the correct [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] sort of fire? Erm, you can cause as much, or more damage to yourself or equipment in ter, by using the wrong one. Service is done... [Steve:] Right, I mean the point I was making, I don't think there's anywhere [speaker001:] [cough] [Steve:] where you have said positively don't use a fire extinguisher [speaker001:] No it's [Steve:] in the event of bomb. [speaker001:] Mm. I I think it would be crazy to actually say that positively. I mean people... it is question of how you say you well enough that [Steve:] Aha. [speaker001:] people do understand that there ar,... if there's a problem and you can do something about it without being a hero, as Mark said... then something should be done. Erm... but how you legislate for common sense and so on [Dianne:] Mm. [speaker001:] I know that looking for a Purple Heart, or... V C, erm are... but I do believe it needs to be... it needs to be clarified. [Roger:] Mm. Okay, well I will se, I'll I'll seek to clarify tha to be able to join that to er sort of form of words. [Dianne:] Erm, something that was actually also raised before and after working hours, erm, there was a fire... evacuation, I think, in October... about to quarter nine [Roger:] Mm. [Dianne:] erm [speaker001:] In G P House? [Dianne:] Yep. which was, complete chaos apparently! All rushing around [speaker001:] Mm. [Dianne:] erm [Norman:] That's happened. [Dianne:] what are the procedures then if fire wardens aren't there? I mean, check it, as in... for checking buildings and... erm [Norman:] I didn't think it was chaos! I thought it was quite well organized considering. Apart from all the people didn't come out. [Dianne:] Half the, yes [speaker001:] Did they not? [Dianne:] yes, that was the main thing! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] The ones that I saw were. [speaker001:] Yeah. Did the alarms [Dianne:] [LAUGHTER] []! [speaker001:] Did the alarms actually keep ringing? [Roger:] Actually organized it. [Dianne:] Yeah. [speaker001:] So they weren't switched off half way through? Yeah? They kept going? [Norman:] Yes, they did, definitely. [Dianne:] For some time. [Roger:] Right! Yeah. It's a good point there! Develop a procedure for out of hours then. [Dianne:] And something... that was suggested by... fire wardens, that they could do a five or ten minute erm... presentation and could go round each floor... to make people aware that they are the... fire wardens, why we have to evacuate and the importance... erm [speaker001:] Mm. It's crafty [Dianne:] and just issue memos [Roger:] Mm. [Dianne:] which you can. They've erm volunteers to see if you can show this committee the presentation for the. [Roger:] Aha. [speaker001:] Is it actually? Is that the sort of the general feeling towards [Dianne:] Erm, Bevan [speaker001:] fire? [Dianne:] and Mark, he said it was suggested, and it was a general feeling that that would be more [Roger:] I haven't said that! [Dianne:] useful than issuing memos. [Roger:] Oh yes! That's er, true. [speaker001:] Gold star! [Dianne:] That's it. Thank you. [Roger:] Actually, that out of hours issue probably pertains to first aid treatment as well doesn't it? [Dianne:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [cough] [Roger:] Yeah. Perhaps we ought to make people aware that, just coming along security isn't. Mm. Yes. Mm. Erm Mm. [Norman:] That's a good point! I could... if I just pick up one other point about... you know, like the... the non-standard... times, or the non-standard occasions... when we do fire evacuations currently... er, I don't know where we think the fire is but we all troop out via our normal... fire exits and to our normal assembly ports... erm, it maybe... men, maybe an idea to... do... some fire evacuations where we... stayed where the fire actually was and people have got to take... other... other routes to evacuate the building. [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. Yeah, I think we can probably try blocking exit next and see what happens! [LAUGHTER] And not on the as well! Well I'm a... da no, sorry! I did get... and proved the place I've been going that actually more accidents due to blocking... and you sort of back up the stairs with you [Roger:] Yeah. [speaker001:] yeah and create... accidents but erm... well perhaps we could do it in a sort of... floor by floor actually this [Roger:] Yes. [speaker001:] just your rear exits are blocked off... find more routes you know you can take, of course, without much potential danger. [Roger:] Okay. So, we'll do some thinking about that then. We Wha also, Mark, need to able to bring out most of the computer people as well. Erm, and I know we tend to make allowances for the operations It's in their contract that is, if they get out They go, they gotta hold especially and [LAUGHTER] try and get through []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Like the Captain of the ship. But I do believe... that we ought to be doing more in terms of making sure they do come out... erm... you know i, we know it's only a... a training exercise... even though you leave one or two in there, but I think we ought Mm. to be drawing most of those people out. Mm. Can we do a separate And we we could do a separate exercise then couldn't we? We could, but I dunno how realistic it would be, I mean if there was, oh obviously it'll more realistic than doing nothing. Mm. But er... we need to be dragging those out at the same time as we're dragging everybody else out. If it were real, it would happen. And I just feel, you know, that er So I think it's part of the... the early morning set up and we were actually gonna talk to Steve weren't we, about That's right. About what they actually bother Yeah. coming out for? Yeah. And er [speaker001:] Yeah, I think you ought to take that up with Steve, cos I don't see why you should getting, taking people [Roger:] No. [speaker001:] out on the machines [Roger:] Oh no! I mean a lot [speaker001:] well afterwards [Roger:] of people there's nothing apparent with them, apparent, then the machine would be er, would be [speaker001:] That's right. [Roger:] And the machine can wait another ten, about ten minutes Well, and that's a serious [speaker001:] Course not. [Roger:] and I think we've gotta reas, yeah... lus, leave it to Steve. [speaker001:] Mm. Okay. You gonna pick that up with Steve? [Roger:] Yeah, I'll do that. [speaker001:] Mm. [Roger:] Is the fire wardens sort of aware... you know, which way they're meant to go if their, their exits they would normally are used are blocked? I mean, shouldn't we sort of going... well that area you [Dianne:] That [Roger:] start off with? [Dianne:] I think that was th, one of the things raised, the procedures and floor plans [Roger:] Mhm. [Dianne:] and the exits [Roger:] Mm. [Dianne:] and weren't actually er, correct, and some [Roger:] Mm mm. [Dianne:] weren't now being used so, I think once that's out of the way. [Roger:] So, sorry, say it again! They will? [Dianne:] The floor plans that they were actually shown... on their training course were out of date for the procedures, so that's what my... whatever, erm security [speaker001:] We don't actually know but we are [Dianne:] [LAUGHTER] but we said [] [Roger:] Oh right. [speaker001:] we're recor, addressing that once. [Dianne:] Yeah. [Roger:] That's a point... to what we are addressing and what we aren't. [speaker001:] That's a very good point! [Roger:] With exactly the same one, we [Dianne:] Mm. [Roger:] our floor plan is, because of the number of moves and so on we've gotta have Oh, this is where desk plan I'll wor, I'll work out the [speaker001:] Yeah. [Roger:] with the exit? [speaker001:] Yeah. And all the exits are clearing off? All the exits at the moment. [Roger:] Yes they are. [speaker001:] Erm [Roger:] Yeah. [speaker001:] nothing's changed there. And... we... whenever we do layouts now as well we insure that... all fire exits are kept to... a minimum of one and half metres wide, er, in terms of main access ways. And, we're becoming more and more stringent on where people... [clears throat] pile... boxes and other... various items of rubbish. Erm... but... we need to get some plans up... together. I don't really [LAUGHTER] want to have []... to do too many... commit myself till the ammunition's here, but we are in fact, actually er, addressing this... very specific issue. [Roger:] Fe feel vulnerable for another, a number of reasons Mark in terms of updated floor plans Mm. and... yes, we're doing something Mm. to [Norman:] Cos I was asking, for a number of reasons I was asking for floor plans for our, you see. Didn't seem to be there. [speaker001:] I'll ask for information Norman. [Norman:] Yeah. [speaker001:] I'm having trouble with my zip today! [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Anyway... thought that'd be the general issue! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] [clears throat] [speaker001:] Yep. [Roger:] Can we go onto computer design then? [LAUGHTER] Oh []! While you've got them out! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Norman:] No! It was just someone got one [Roger:] We got the same taste in! Cheeky sod! Well, you see! You can get him some nice We well if we don't get the package... if Yeah. we get one Mark we're going to get one for the right reasons indeed. There's a CAD system in your end isn't there? Yes there is. Yeah, it's a very good one. [LAUGHTER] We use it all the time. Well Yeah. We've already beaten them. Yeah, we have looked at, but erm Very good part of the investigation. distributing one But they won't share, you know what they're like in my team it's, it's [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh you don't mean it! [Roger:] Told him you can use our plotter any Erm time you like. It's it's hold on a minute. Gee whizz! [Dianne:] One other thing is just to chase up procedures we're going to put on the... passes for attendants and visitors... and that still hasn't been done. And I've spoken to Paula since the last meeting and... and chase it but... it still hasn't been [Roger:] Right. Okay. We, we put together some sort of words on anyway, we've er [speaker001:] Yeah. But, not very far. [Roger:] Almost [speaker001:] Yeah. You gave us five pages to get in one! [Roger:] I gave you five pages, yeah but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It is now a hell of a lot less! [Roger:] I hope we can do other things. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] That's right. Did a good a trade in restaurant. Okay. Good! [speaker001:] [cough] May I... make a, a separate point Yeah. that does link in with that... point that Dianne made? Erm... me, myself and Steve are currently working on... er, health and safety for contractors coming on site... purpose to work etcetera... and... one of reasons why... well he... than ever before on this,visi visitor's information when they're... on site on the back of cars... it would, it would have been a nice thing to do would have been to have joined the whole lot together. Erm... and, anyway, on the... health and safety contractors on site thing... Stuart has actually read the documentation... and he's quite happy with it, and we're waiting for you and Martin to feed back as well on it. [Roger:] Right. Mm! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Well I was getting you back for one! [Roger:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah []! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Roger:] Why not! [speaker001:] Once we've done that perhaps we can... sit... this particular lay info information on the back of the card so we're covering [Roger:] Excellent! [speaker001:] all visitors. [Roger:] Mm. Yep. Okay. Right. Anything on fire from anybody else? Okay. Let's move on to any other business. I've just got something well I'll take over. Mm. Right, a little [Dianne:] Erm [Roger:] note here. [Dianne:] I don't know if I was the only one that didn't receive the check list? I mean, has, has anyone else got these wo, it's off the last bulletin. Erm... the check list that I think Des... completes... is gonna go to Adees and [Roger:] Oh right. [Dianne:] there's the Health and Safety Committee. Has anyone else... received it? [Roger:] No I haven't. [speaker001:] No.

[Albert:] Somebody once said that if angelism, sharing the gospel was one beggar telling another beggar about bread, where it could be found... and undoubtedly when he was saying that he was thinking of that story that account that we had read to us earlier from the second book of kings, chapter seven, and I'd like us to er turn back to us for a few moments this morning and perhaps draw some lessons for ourselves... Sometimes as Christians its very easier for us to say what sins are, and we can see other people's failings, you don't have to be a Christian to do that of course, plenty of other people can do that, they see the failings of other people, they see the wrong doing they do, they see their wickedness their, their waywardness, whatever words we want to use to describe it, and we say well that is sin, perhaps for most of us this morning we could make er a list a, a, a tabulate a table of sins and we might say well they are worse sins and there are lesser sins and I would I suppose by and large there would be a fairly reasonable consensus of opinion regarding what was sins and what were not sins.... Sometimes the bible surprises us a little bit of course, and it puts it finger on things that we perhaps don't really want to talk about or we don't even consider as sins... and the bible is quite clear that not all sins are what we do... often there what we don't do... in parable that Jesus told concerning the traveller, the man who went down to Jericho, we don't condemn the priest and the levite for what they did, but we do condemn them for what they didn't do, their sin was not what they did, it was what they left undone, going over and looking at the man was very note worthy, as least there was some interest there... and we don't condemn them for that, but we do condemn them for hurrying along and not reaching out and helping the man... in the Pistol of James and chapter four and verse seventeen James says there, any one then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins... so the sins that you and I comment or the sins rather that we are guilty of are not just the things that we do there of times the things that we don't do... and sometimes there more difficult for us to put a finger on, we can justify them so very easily... its been said that all it needs for evil to triumph, is for good men to say or to do nothing... well lets look at the, that,illu illustration there that we have in the second book of kings. As I mentioned early the, the city of Sermaria it was under siege and the army of Seria was encamped all around it, Ben Hadad was a great warrior, he would of been the, the Alexander or the Napoleon of his day and he had set up this... encampment around the city of Sermaria, nobody could get in, nobody could get out and very quickly the stocks of food and water er were used up, rationing would of been introduced but it only lasted for a certain period, they'd got to the stage it tells us in the previous chapter that er, that a donkeys head was sold for eighty shekel's of silver... and some folk had even got to the, had sunk to the level of cannibalism, of eating their own children... and the city was, when they heard about this they were in an uproar and they started blaming god... and in between the city of Sermaria of all its suffering and hopelessness and helplessness and the army encamped about with all of their supplies, there was this area of no mans land in which they were caught up four men who were leapers and they were trapped there, they didn't want to go over to the Serians because they'd be killed, they didn't want to go back into the city because they weren't allowed there and any way what was the point, they'd only die of starvation in there... and so these four men are caught up in no man's land and yet their no better off than people in the city, now god had promised deliverance, through his serve and Eliger he had promised deliverance, Eliger said tomorrow about this time a measure of fine flour shall be sold for a se shekel and two measures of barley for a shekel in the gate of Semaria, he said the gates are gonna be open, there's gonna be food and its gonna be a reasonable price... and it says the royal officer who's hand the king was leaning on said the man of god said behold, if the lord shall make windows in heaven could such a thing be, he said don't talk stupid man, how can such a thing happen for us?, he didn't believe what god servant said and Eliger brings out to him a terrible judgment, he says because of your unbelief you will see it, but your not participate in it... but lets look at these four men for a moment, cos that's where our real interest lies this morning, I just wanted to say three things in their experience, the first things is that they were amazed that, at what they found, because after they come together and they talk about it and they said well what shall we do... and they weighed the pro's and the cons and Semaria doesn't look very attractive with its cannibalism, they said well the least... if we stay here were gonna die, if we go into Semaria we'll die, lets go down to the Serein camp, the worse they can do to us is put us to death and were dying men any way, but they may just take pity on us, we maybe allowed to grope around in their dustbins and get some scraps of food, they may at least allow us that, and so they make their way down just as evening is falling, they make their way down to the Serein lines and when they get there, they are amazed at what they find, you see their condition was helpless and hopeless, they were dying men any way, they were lepers, but they were dying of starvation, that was far more imminent than their leprosy, their problems and their needs were greater than themselves, they could not meet their own needs, their problems and their needs were greater than their government, the king in Semaria and all of his court could not meet the needs of his people... and then in verse five, we read something there, they arose at twilight to go to the camp of Aramians or the Serein's and when they came to the outskirts of the camp of the Serein's behold there was no one there, they expected to at least meet a guard, there would surely be somebody on sentry duty even if the rest of the soldiers had gone in to their tents and were perhaps getting ready for their, for the evening, going to bed or whatever they were gonna be doing, having their evening meal, there would at least be somebody on guard duty, but when they got there, there was no one there, god had stepped in, god had intervened and the good news of the Christian gospel is that god has intervened in our, in the midst of our helplessness, in the midst of our hopelessness, god has intervened, he had stepped in to history, so often you'll hear folks say, well why doesn't god do something, why does god allow this to happen, why does god allow that one, why doesn't he do something... all they really show by that comment is their own ignorance, because god has done something, god has intervened, listen to what it says in John three sixteen, for god so loved the world that he gave, he's only son and the er, the er apostle Paul and he's writing to the Gallations, in chapter four and in verses four and five hear what he says there, [reading] but when the time had fully come god sent his son, born of a woman, born under law to redeem those under law that we might receive the full rights of son, er of sons [], god has done something, he's sent his son Jesus Christ into this world in fact his done the greatest thing he could do, he has done the very ultimate thing, he has sent his son into the world... that's the greatest intervention god could ever have made, it was far greater than, than just intervening in sm, in some small local event, were you see some catastrophe happening and you say well why doesn't god do something there, or there's a war situation going on in some other part of the world, well why doesn't god step in and stop it, god has stepped in, not in a local situation, not in some er passing problem or need but he's stepped into the greatest way possible by sending his son Jesus Christ into the world to dye for men and woman, to take away sin, to pay the price that god's righteousness demands for sin... so god has intervened and his intervention has changed the whole situation, its brought a whole new complexion on things, its changed the colour completely, no longer is the world now under darkness and in, and in pending judgment in doom, because Jesus Christ came and he took that judgment and that, that condemnation upon himself, he said I've not come to condemn the world... he said its already condemned, its already under judgement, the sword of Damocles is already hanging over the world... and Jesus Christ came in and to take that judgment and that condemnation on himself and when he died there on the cross and rose again, there came that burst of light in a world that had been shrouded in blackness and darkness, a world that had been shrouded in sin suddenly for the first time sees the light, god has paid for himself the price of sin, god has intervened and changed the whole situation and the message of the gospel is that if you and I allow that intervention to effect us personally, then like those four men surely we too are amazed at what we've found. If we've come to guard and received forgiveness of sins, if we have become good followers of Jesus Christ and we are not amazed... then there's something wrong with what we've received... that god should so love, not just the world, but should so love me, that he gave his son to die for me and that was the sort of er discovery that these four lepers made they've come down there, they've found that the sight before them was amazing, there was no enemy there, the enemy had disappeared and the tents with all their contents were there before them, they were amazed with what they found... and you and I when we come to god through Jesus Christ, we are amazed at what we find, we find forgiveness, we find the restoration of a relationship between ourselves and god, we find an access to receive god's blessing to receive his favour, to receive his gifts that he has for us, no wonder the apostle Paul cries out thanks beyond to god for his unspeakable gift, but then again these four men they were not just amazed that what they found, they were, they got absorbed in what they got, because they got a lot more than they bargained for, they possibly in their wildest dreams thought they might at least get, get what the cook was throwing out, they might get to, to the dustbins, they might get what was left over, that would of been great, they were dying of starvation, the driest mouldiest crust would of been like, like a banquet to them, but they got so much more than they anticipated and they got absorbed in it, every thing was there's for the taking as they pulled back the, the flap of the tent as they go in and they see the tables laid out there, they see the food and the drink, they see the plenty, these men who for weeks have known terrible poverty, there might of been a time earlier on in the siege when a few scraps got thrown over the city wall, when the bins were put out the side of the city of an evening, er they would go there and forage amongst them, but all that had stopped long since and it was only the bits and pieces that they managed to forage for themselves and get for themselves that they'd been eating of late, but here every thing is there for the taking, they rubbed their eyes, they pinched one another to make sure their not dreaming, it really is food and drink in a, in an abundance they couldn't of thought of a few mo hours earlier... one moment they had nothing, the next they've got every thing, what was it they needed, food, the tables would of been laden with it, it was the food, enough food for an army and there's only four of them, did they, were they thirsty, here was drink, here was wine and, and drink in abundance... the rags, the tatters they were dressed in, there were garments and wardrobe full of clothes here for them, did they need money, well the tents were full of the gold and the silver and, and, and valuables, there were a sufficiency, every thing was there... you know the idea that the Christian life is drab and poor is such a terrible false hood, its an iniquitous lie of the devil, the tragedy is that we have actually often made it that way, we have made the Christian faith something drab, something boring, something for old folk er and er you know, people who are, who are, just wanting a crutch because their coming to the end of their natural life and we've made it something drab and dull... listen to what the apostle Paul says when he's writing to Carinthian's in his second letter in chapter eight, he says [reading] you know the grace of our lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might be rich, god, he's purpose follows his people, he's not that we've a drab, grey, dull uninteresting life, Jesus said I've come that you might of life, and that more abundant, that in all its fullness []... and god has purpose for us, and when Paul is talking about riches there, he's not talking about pounds and pence, he's talking about the richness of the life that we enjoy... its not a case of not doing this and having to do that the other thing, its a case of enjoying life as god purposes it, as god intends it... you know if you don't enjoy your Christian life now, let me tell you your in for a rude awakening when you get to heaven, because the quality of life is not gonna change... the only things that'll change is its la it, it will, it will be in his presence, the quality of life will not change because already now we have received eternal life, he has given his life to us and he hasn't got some other special, you know, super duper life laid up, there's nothing, there's nothing greater ahead, god hasn't got any thing greater for us than what he's already given to us in embryonic form here and now... why if we take on er a, a, a dazzling scintillating new zest and zap when you get to heaven, that life is already given to you and to me know... go back to these four men at the moment, they had never known any thing like this before... this was better than all their birthdays rolled into one, this was the greatest day in their experience and if they would live to be a hundred they would never know another day like this, they were having a tremendous time, it said they, they, they, they went into one tent, listen to what they did, they went into one tent and they, they ate, they drank, they had a party and they carried from there the silver, the gold and the clothes and they went and hid they returned and entered another tent and then they did the same there, they were having a tremendous time, this was a beano to end all beano's, this was the greatest day in their life, they were having a wonderful time... and why shouldn't they, why not... you know there are folk who would, who'd want to make us as Christians er and er, ee, put us into a straight jacket... the bible tells me even the sunsets free, is free indeed... and I don't see any suggestions as I read the New Testament, that first of all the life of Jesus was drab and uninteresting, or that he expects me as his follow to lead a drab, a grey life, oh its not always gonna be a ple an easy life... but that doesn't reduce the, the zest and the excitement in it... but you see the danger is when having a good time is the reason for living and the only reason for it, you see, if god has intervened in our life, if the message of the gospel is true, if god in Christ has taken away your sin and made you in Christ a new creation then you have every reason to enjoy life, in a sense your only able to start enjoying life now, you may have enjoyed some of the things that, that folks suggest that make up life, but they've finished, there gone, what happens when the, when, when the wine has run out, what happens when the parties over, you know all about it the next day, don't you, what happens then, its such short lived, its only worth having whilst its coming to you all the time, but that's not so with a Christian life, because it doe, depend on just the things that we have or the experiences that we go through, because it is something that, that we have within, it is, it is a quality of life that we possess, because we possess the one who is life himself, listen to what Paul says when he's writing to Timothy in his first letter in chapter six [reading] it is command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, those who think that, that er in having possessions that is the secret of life or, or in having a good time and, and, and the rest of it that is what life is all about, he said warn them not to do that, because that is so uncertain, he says but to put their hope in god who richly provides us with every thing []... what for, for our enjoyment, why has god given us these things, why is, why is god even, he is natural creation there for us, it is for our enjoyment, its not to make us miserable or to make us grey and drab and burden by it, it is for us to enjoy, when god created Ada Adam and Eve and put them in the garden, the, they were told to enjoy it, even the fruit enjoy it, its there for your benefit... and then the new creation, every thing that god has provided is there for our enjoyment, but the dangers is when that enjoyment, is the reason for living and that's all we do it for and were so taking up with ourselves, I am gonna have my good time, I'm gonna enjoy myself as a Christian and I can do it and you can do it, you become insular and we become introverted and the only thing that matters is me having a good time, my world centres around me and me enjoying myself and me having this and me having that, this blessing and that gift and that other blessing, we become self centred and taken up with our own good times, as long as I can be there in the centre, as long as I can go from, from, from this celebration to that celebration, as long as I can go from this er festival to that festival to this special meeting to that one, I'm gonna have my good time... well that was what these fella's were doing, they were going from tent to tent, from celebration to celebration having a great time and then the truth hit them... they were ashamed with what they had done, they said to one another we are not doing right, this days a day of good news, but we are keeping silent, if we wait until morning light punishment will overtake us, now therefore, come, let us go and tell the kings household... how guilty are we, how guilty are you, how guilty am I of the sinner silence, remember how we started, its not always the things that we do... its often the things that we don't do, how guilty are we of the sin of silence... these men... had known nothing, known poverty and, and, and, and starvation, they were amazed at what they'd found, they'd became absorbed in what they had got and now they'd became ashamed of what they had done with it... what was the sin that troubled these men... they said we are keeping silent. Back in the city there were thousand of people doomed, dying and all unnecessarily because here was plenty, here was sufficient for the whole city... and possibly the greatest sin that you and I can be guilty of and that the church is generally guilty of, but you know when we talk about the church generally its, its so easy because that's general, you and I that are the church, not the denomination, not the organization, it you and I, possibly the greatest sin that we can be guilty of is the sin of silence, I'm not talking now about a rude, belligerent, discourteous, butting hole, button holding of people, I'm not talking about that, I don't see any place in gods word for that sort of attitude or that sort of approach... but are we still silent, what about with those with whom we have the right, because we've created a relationship, because they know us and they've seen us and they've seen the experiences we've gone through and they've seen what god has done in our lives, what about with those people... do we wait for others to do it, shifting the responsibility. thinking in, in, in the context of our, of our mission, this town wide mission, well that's Billy's job, he's better at it than I am, but its not his job, its my job as much as its his and its your job as much as its mine, we do not well to keep silent... these men they were troubled by their sin of silence, perhaps you and I should be troubled by our sin of silence... because the extension of that, and here's the really great thing, as far as they were concerned, the ex the, the ongoing because they were troubled by their sin of silence and they did something about it, they were thrilled at the sight that they saw, as they see the city being delivered, and as they see starving men and women eating food perhaps for the first time in days or weeks, buying good wholesome food at a reasonable price, that was the sigh that thrilled them and you can imagine them, and I think they'd be entitled to a little bit of pride that... I'm glad we told them, I'm glad we went back and shared the news... apart from any thing we couldn't of coped with all ourselves, it would of been so wrong to of kept it, it would of been so wrong just to of eaten it ourselves, I'm glad we went back and told them. Jesus said just before he was living his disciples, his followers, you and me, he said you shall receive power after the holy spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me... yes we witness by our life... but there's a danger in making that a cop out, because one other requirement of a witness is that they talk, they've gotta say what they know, these four men were good witnesses, they went back and they told the city what they had found, and there's placed upon you and me that responsibility to go back and to tell what we've found, this is a day of good tidings, we do wrong to keep silent.

[Albert:] Its a, during the course of the time of the crucifixion, Jesus is on the cross and its says there, there were two others also who were criminals, were being lead away to be put to death with Jesus and they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified him and the criminals one on the right and the other on the left, but Jesus was saying father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing, and they cast locks divided up his garments among themselves and the people stood by and looking on and even the rulers was sneering at him... excuse me, and even the rulers were sneering at him saying he saved others, let him save himself if this is the Christ of god, his chosen one, and the soldiers also mocked him, coming up to him offering sour wine and saying if your the king of the Jews save yourself... now there was also an inscription above him, this is the kind of the Jews, and one of the criminals who was hanged there was hurling abut at him and saying you are not the Christ, save yourself and us, but the other answered and rebuking him said do you not even fear god, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation and we indeed justly for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong... and he was say, and he was saying Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom, Jesus said to him truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise... I wonder if you've ever been in that awful position of facing of what you thought was certain death... perhaps you were seriously ill and er, there seemed little hope of your recovery, perhaps you were facing some danger, some, some risk and it seemed almost certain that short of a miracle you were gonna die, I wonder what sort of thoughts would have been going through your mind, maybe w, may well be that you were with other people, I wonder what sort of things if you were in a condition of speaking, what sort of things you would of been saying to them. Now I suppose for most of us because of the very fact were here this morning they have been few and far between such experiences, perhaps what is more common is that we may have spent time with someone who was dying, their last few hours, their last few minutes, and if they were not unconscious I wonder what sort of conversation would be going on between us and them, what sort of things would we, would we of been saying, what would we be asking us, well in this passage that we have been reading we have just such a conversation, two men who are on the verge of death, death can only be hours away for both of them, and here they have this conversation, it was in that sense it was one of the strangest interviews any body ever had with Jesus... not only is the, the account here of er a death bed conversion, but the one who is saving is also in the process of dying. Jesus had had many interviews with people, we've looked at some of them over these past few weeks, the time when he met with Nicademus, the religious leader, the time he went out of his way to meet with a woman of Semaria in her dyer need, the other occasion that we looked at er a week or so back when he called Anzakias from that tree of which he was hiding, last week his judge, pilot, but of all those interviews and as many others that we haven't looked at this surely must be one of the strangest as Jesus himself is in the process of dying and as he is dying he is confronted with another person who has a need, but Jesus your need is as greatest as any body elses, your pain, your suffering, your physical suffering was every bit of great as those around you, why be bothered with others... isn't that so often our story, when we are in need we can forget all about other people, it doesn't matter there need, its poor me, what about me, what about my need, what about my requirements, what about my suffering, but we see here how Jesus apart from any thing else deals with his own suffering, he deals with it by ministering to the needs of other people, and this surely then must be one of the most strange and one of the most interviews that our lord ever had when he was here on earth, with this dying thief, but he was more than a thief he was a er, he was a re a rebel, he was a terrorist... or a freedom fighter depending on which way you wanted to look at it and he was dying for his crimes... and he wasn't alone because there there was this man we've been talking about, there was Jesus and there was another one, another criminal on the other side and we find that this is all in keeping with what god had promised, all there in, in line with his prophecy way back in Iziah chapter fifty three, it tells us that he was numbered with the transgressors, that he died with sinful men with, with law breakers and here it is its happening right in front of the, the very eyes of the Jewish leaders and the jewish authorities... our lords intention in coming into the world was to save men and women, to seek out and to save sinners, remember thirty odd years previous to this event the word had come, for Mary his mother, to Joseph, we will call his name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins... and later on writing to Timothy the apostle Paul in the first chapter of the first book in verse fifteen he says it is a trust worthy statement deserving full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, this was his purpose, this was his reason for coming into the world, not to be a good man, not to be a, a great leader, not to give us some model that we can, you know, that we can plan our life out and try and live up to his standards, he says I've come to give my life as a ransom, I have come to save and to seek that which was lost... and here in this incident as he himself is dying and is in physical pain and torment he is carrying out this very work, of seeking out and saving of those who will turn to him, those who will put their trust in him, he is saving the lost, and we see in a wonderful how great the compassion of Jesus was and is, in reaching out and rescuing those who are lost, here we see our lord suffering the most terrible agony and yet in the midst of his own sorrow and pain and, and torment he thinks of this dying thief and extends his grace and mercy to him.... Perhaps the book of lamentation is not the book you normally turn to, to find words of encouragement, but there are tremendous encouragements to be found in it, listen what the profits says there, in the third chapter, he says this I recall to my mind, and he's talking about the time of his own affliction, the time when he is going through it, the time when nobody loves him, the time when everybody's against him, when he's suffering and he's in pain the time when life is full of bitterness for him, he says this I recall to my mind, therefore I have hope, the lords loving kindness indeed never ceases for his compassion's never fail... and here Jesus is demonstrating that, he's compassion's never fail, he's loving kindnesses they never cease, here in his dying hour Jesus is showing that in reaching out to this man... but as we said the other week the, the deepest, the most important significance of what Jesus did then, of what Jesus said then, its not just of the historical account, but that he is able and willing to say and to do exactly the same today in your experience and in mine, what he did for that man on the cross he's ready and willing to do for every one of us... the incident may of happened nineteen hundred years ago, but there's the old hymn, the verse reminds us, picks out that very story and it says the dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day and there may I, though via us he wash all my sins away, and that verse from William Cowper's hymn, it takes up that great historical event, that tremendous happening in that man's life and he links it with a present and it applies it to you and to me and says this can be our experience as well. So lets just as we hurry along this morning notice several things about this interview that this man had with Jesus. I'm never quite sure really to be honest whether these individuals had an interview with Jesus or Jesus had an interview with them, because whether they thought that Jesus or whether they thought they were doing the, the probing and the questioning really it was Jesus who was in charge of the interview, you may of watched er certain chat shows on the, on the television or heard them on the radio and er depending who the person being interviewed is, very often it actually changes, and its the interviewer who really is being put through it, its the, its the person who's being interviewed is in charge of the situation and that was the case here Jesus.... But lets just notice two or three things in this particular interview, the first thing that we see and its so obvious is that the way of salvation is so wondrously simple, it couldn't be easier, you know there are so many people who think it is hard to get saved, who think it is hard to come to Christ and to become a Christian, well the problem is you see the devil has blinded their eyes, they've blinded the eyes of men and women, so that they think that they can't do this, but what is actually happened, Paul tells us in, in, in Carinthians in the first er, in to Carinthians in chapter four and verse four, he says the god of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of god, and there is this shroud, this covering, but the thing is god takes that away so that we can see and so its not difficult to become a Christian, it is not hard to get saved, sometimes as Christians we are guilty of making it difficult for people to become Christians, we put all sorts of rules in, we, we make them undergo various periods of er, of probation before we wer we've were, were willing to call them Christians, remember the Philippine jailer he cried out there to the apostle Paul who was er in jail there with Silus the, the be, the tremendous earthquake and they were released all their vetoers was, were broken and the prisoners were all, could of escaped and the ja, the Philippine jailer he cries out a question that I'm sure he doesn't even know what he means when he calls it out, he's not thinking of heaven, he's not thinking of the future life, he's not thinking of having his sins dealt with but he just cries out what must I do to be saved... and the apostle Paul and he gets, opens the scrolls and he starts in genesis and he explains the plan of salvation and he tells him what he's got to do and he explains all the requirements and then about three or four hours later the mans mind is completely blurred he doesn't understand a word of it, its gone way beyond him

[speaker001:] with Mr but what I thought I'd do today is see how much you've remembered of one or two of the basic topics. So... topic I want to start off today with is iron and steel.... Who can remember what four things which four things go into a blast furnace?... Let's have one of them from somebody.... Copper. [Tony:] Copper. We're trying to make iron and steel Edwin. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh. Oh right yes, I knew that. [Tony:] You knew that. Good.... Okay. So what four things? There's four things that go into a blast furnace. Come on you've done this.... [speaker001:] Zinc.... [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] N not zinc if we're trying to make iron. [speaker001:] Iron. Should be iron or steel. [Tony:] Iron what? [speaker001:] Ore. Iron ore. [Tony:] Right.... Ha hallelujah, we're getting somewhere. Right iron ore. most of the iron ore is used ir in the form of iron what? Somebody said it actually.... [speaker001:] Oxide. [Tony:] Oxide, right. And they're iron oxides.... Right there are two iron oxides commonly used in the blast furnace, one of which is named because of its colour [phone rings] Excuse me a moment. [talking into telephone] Er... right as I was saying there's two iron oxides one named because of its colour and the other one named because of its properties.... Anybody remember what they are?... Simon. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] No I think invoking the deity is not going to help you here.... I'll give you a further clue. One of them is because of its blood red colour. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] What's Yes. What's the name of the department in a hospital that deals with blood? [speaker001:] The blood bank. [Tony:] The blood bank. No. No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. . [Tony:] That's where they store it not where they er play about with it. [speaker001:] Transfusions [Tony:] Begins with H. [speaker001:] H. Hospital. Hospital blood [LAUGHTER] bank []. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] H A E. [speaker001:] Hae... [Tony:] Mm. [speaker001:] A E A [LAUGHTER] A E [] [LAUGHTER]. A E . Haematology. [Tony:] Haematite. [speaker001:] Haematite. [Tony:] Haematology is the department that deals with blood and the red colouring in the blood is haemoglobin. Edwin. [speaker001:] Sir is it erm are they the people who tell you what erm group your blood is? [Tony:] Yes, basically. And the way they do that is they take a sample of your blood and mix it with er... agents taking taken from the blood of other people. [speaker001:] Ugh. [Tony:] So for example when I've given a pint of blood instead of giving it into a plastic bag with sodium citrate to stop it clotting I've actually given into a plain glass bottle and when I asked what this for the erm transfusion nurse said that they're going to let the red cells all clot together at the bottom and use the... serum that was left for blood grouping purposes... which of course is very important. So when they're actually blood grouping they're using human blood serum to er test which group you belong to. So... haematology because of haemoglobin the red... colouring of the erm red cells that carry the oxygen around the body and haemoglobin contains iron which is why when people are short of iron they suffer from anaemia because they've got en not enough of this red colouring in their... blood cells to carry the oxygen around the body. Haematite is F E... 2 0 3.... Iron three oxide.... [speaker001:] iron three oxide.... [Tony:] The other one... I n said named because of its property is called magnetite.... Okay? So what's the property of magnetite that makes it interesting?... It's magnetic. Right. [speaker001:] .... [Tony:] And it's believed that magnetite in its er one of its forms lodestone was er the earliest form of compass. You had this lump of rock that you dangled from a thread and people discovered that it always pointed in the same direction, so if you were on board, a ship for the first time people were able to travel in a ship without having to hug a coast all the way across or navigate to where they could see. Er the... I know this is basically not iron and steel but if you take the Mediterranean... er very loosely... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] That's Italy and er the home of the Mafia, there's Greece and Turkey and so on and you come back round again, there's the Straits of Gibraltar. In the early days of er navigation within the Mediterranean people used to actually have to navigate by going all the way round the coast. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] So if you wanted to go from there to there you went all round that way. The reason being that you had to navigate where you could see. And in the Bible it's recorded that for example there are some cases where there was a big storm and they lost sight of land and all the sailors er promptly panicked because once they'd lost sight of land they hadn't got a clue where they were.... But with a lodestone compass which was er magnetic iron oxide hung up on the ship, you could actually then work out that you go straight across from there to there... no problems.... And it then made possible going by the shortest route. So magnetite is a very important iron oxide.... Where do we get our iron ore from these days?... [speaker001:] .... [Tony:] Well you're telling me other countries. In other words we import it. Why do we import it? [speaker001:] Cheaper. [Tony:] It's cheaper, yes. And why is it cheaper? What's happened to the iron ore in Britain? [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] It's gone [LAUGHTER] rusty []. Finished. [Tony:] It's gone rusty. No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Er it's Yeah. finished. [Tony:] It's finished. Yes [speaker001:] . [Tony:] It's run out. Right.... The two main... areas that I'm thinking of are in Northamptonshire... where the iron ore works there have been completely exhausted and the other is Consett in County Durham. And if you go to Consett from Nottingham,... you [speaker001:] ? [Tony:] Consett. C erm... C O N S E... double T I think it is. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] If you go to Consett in County Durham you come along the road and there's the town and... what was left of the old steel works... because the steel works was built there because of its easy access to the iron ore deposits. And you come over this hill... and suddenly there's nothing on the other side... except a huge hole in the ground, and the road goes along almost a cliff edge the side of this... erm hole which is this worked out iron ore quarry. It completely all the iron ore deposits there er have gone.... So we import our iron ore from other countries. For example Australia produces quite a lot, Sweden produces a lot, and it's imported into this country in bulk ore carriers. So... we've got iron ore... obviously from which we get the iron.... Three other things to go into the blast furnace?... [speaker001:] Me? [Tony:] Anybody.... Iron ore is one.... What's the fuel? [speaker001:] Erm.... [Tony:] Right, begins with that letter, yes. [speaker001:] . coal? coke. [Tony:] No it's con [speaker001:] Coke? [Tony:] Coke. Right. Obviously [speaker001:] . [Tony:] ... coal is converted into coke. [speaker001:] . .... No it's not cocaine. Oh. All right then. [Tony:] You're confusing the slang for cocaine with... coke. Coke... in the terms in which we're talking about it is Er it's not that soft drink either. It's actually a black porous substance made by heating coal in the absence of air, and consists of virtually pure carbon.... The er... coke is produced from the coal and the coal gas that's driven off is then used for heating and powering things elsewhere in the steel works. So we have two things, we've got iron ore, coke. Now for that coke to burn in this furnace what must we add?... [speaker001:] Heat? . [Tony:] Heat, yes. I'll give you a clue. It's the sort of thing you might collect from the House of Commons particularly during a... er big debate.... Producing lots of... [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] Possibly but er that's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] not quite what I'm thinking of.... Politicians are renowned for producing? [speaker001:] Hot air. [Tony:] Hot air, right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. .... [Tony:] Hot air.... Air obviously makes it burn. Hot air means that it's burned better. And the hot air is injected near the bottom of the furnace where the temperature is about fifteen hundred degrees celsius, [speaker001:] Whoa! [Tony:] which is just a little bit warm. If you injected cold air you'd actually chill the furnace down a bit. The reason that you use hot air is to keep that combustion going at a good temperature. And finally coming from Derbyshire... from up the road in Buxton, the biggest quarry and the purest in Europe. [speaker001:] Spring water. [Tony:] No. [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] Yeah but there is [Tony:] There is Derbyshire spring water from Buxton yes. [speaker001:] . [cough]. [Tony:] O [speaker001:] Er excuse me, we got the answer right? Spring water in a blast furnace?... Anyway carry on. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, right. []... So... what is mined in large quantities in Derbyshire? You saw a video about it. [speaker001:] Limestone. [Tony:] Limestone, thank you.... Now limestone has a very important function in the blast furnace.... What is that?... What does it make?... [speaker001:] Erm... lime water? [LAUGHTER].... . [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] Four-letter word,... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] used in a er derogatory sense of certain people.... Limestone is used to make? Come on, think. [speaker001:] Burn. Burn. Burn. Make it burn? Slag! Slag! [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Thank you. Anybody would think you haven't done this. Come on. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Right. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] So... [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] The... impurity in iron ore is about one third... sand,... which is silicon oxide. Now if you have... silicon in your steel it becomes very brittle and useless. For example if you think of the Vauxhall Cavalier advert where they're crashing these Cavaliers all over the place, if you had a silicone er a silicon-based steel... instead of crumpling nicely the steel would actually crack and break. So basically you have to remove this silicon which was in this impurity. To do that you need to add... limestone which then converts into er calcium oxide in the heat of the blast furnace and then reacts with the sand to form slag. The equations are as follows.... What's the formula for er limestone?... Simon. Come on. [speaker001:] . I don't feel special no more. . [Tony:] don't feel special any more Edwin, let's at least [speaker001:] Oh. [Tony:] get English right. Even if chewing in class is not allowed in a science lab. Calcium oxide heated in the blast furnace turns very rapidly to calcium... oxide plus carbon dioxide. [speaker001:] . Which makes erm [Tony:] Now [speaker001:] C O three. It's easy.... . [Tony:] Calcium silicate. Now calcium silicate is the... slag.... What happens in the blast furnace is that the slag is lighter than the molten iron... and it collects on top of the molten iron and by some means that I s [speaker001:] scoop off.... [Tony:] But they don't actually scoop it out off from the blast furnace, they drill a hole in the side where they've plugged it with a lump of clay. [speaker001:] Cos they have to keep the blast furnace going don't they. [Tony:] That's right. Yeah. I'm coming to that, good, but that is a very important point.... The tapping from the furnace is done by means of tap holes in the side of the furnace and these are plugged with clay... and what happens is one of the... workers has a lump of... clay on the end of a long metal rod. He then... pushes this clay into the hole and the heat of the furnace means that the clay bakes almost instantaneously blocks the hole and then the furnace can go o carry on working. And the slag is normally tapped off first.... They then run it into pits, break it up, and use it for road stone or alternatively, the molten slag is run over water-cooled rollers where it forms little tiny pellets... with a high air content which are used for making insulation blocks.... But the... slag making is an important part of the process. By the way interestingly enough this is a sort of acid plus base type reaction, where you've got calcium oxide which is a basic oxide,... silicon dioxide which is an acidic oxide, and the salt that it makes is calcium silicate.... Let's have a look at the reactions.... The most common ore used in the blast furnace is haematite,... so I'm going to restrict my... equations to dealing with haematite. Because that's the one you may be asked in your exam.... F E two O three. [speaker001:] Haematite. [Tony:] Haem Haematite.... Blood-red colour. If you rub it in your fingers, you'll find that your fingers are actually stained red by the haematite dust, and it looks just as if you've cut yourself. Now there are two ways in which iron oxide can be reduced to iron and they depend exactly where you are in the blast furnace.... The first one is by reacting directly with carbon.... When you get iron... and carbon monoxide.... That is a high-temperature reaction and tends to happen near the bottom of the furnace.... Nearer the t higher up our reducing agent... is carbon monoxide which is formed by partial burning of the coke, and that forms... iron again... and carbon dioxide.... Now... the carbon dioxide formed can react with more carbon to form... car more carbon monoxide. So there's a whole a series of complicated equations that take place at different layers... in the furnace and different temperatures, but the end product of of all of these is basically to produce... the iron, slag... and carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide... and nitrogen. So coming off the top of the furnace we have a mixture of nitrogen, quite a lot of that, carbon monoxide and a bit of carbon dioxide.... Now what do you know about carbon monoxide?... What happens if you react carbon monoxide with oxygen and ignite it? [speaker001:] . [Tony:] It burns. Yes.... Have you ever looked at a coke fire?... the coke fire has been banked up with only a limited supply of air. What colour are the flames?...... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Blue. Yes. You've seen it, good. They're blue flames. Now the blue flames are What's happening is this, there's two reactions taking place in that coke fire.... Down in the heart of the coke the limited supply of air is reacting with the carbon to form carbon monoxide. You shut the... damper doors on the bottom of fire. This carbon monoxide comes up through the coke and then comes in contact with air at the top of the fire and then burns to give you carbon... dioxide. The carbon monoxide burns with a blue flame. So there is a fuel.... It's called blast furnace gas. Blast furnace gas. [speaker001:] Which is harmful. [Tony:] It is. Would be if you discharged it into the environment, because of course, carbon monoxide is what? [speaker001:] [sneeze] [Tony:] Poisonous. Yeah.... Come on to the poisonous nature of carbon monoxide in a minute. So carbon monoxide is poisonous.... So they don't discharge it, and since it's a fuel anyway they don't want to waste fuel, they use the heat generated from burning this fuel... to heat the incoming blast of air. They do that in brick s stoves called er Cooper stoves. They've got effectively three of those. Two of those are being heated by burning blast furnace gas and the third one has the cold air blown through it and the brickwork inside gives up the heat to the er... cold air, warms the air and then that's blown into the blast furnace. Blast furnace gas is what is called a low-grade fuel. Why is it a low-grade fuel?... Compared with so many things. Simon?... [speaker001:] Er [Tony:] You looked like you were going to try and answer. [speaker001:] I w Well actually I wasn't but I'll have a go. Cos it cos it's cheap to make? [Tony:] No. No. Low-grade fuel. [speaker001:] use it? [Tony:] No.... What are we after when we burn a fuel? Lots and lots of? [speaker001:] Heat. [Tony:] Heat. So a high-grade fuel will give us... [speaker001:] Er plenty of... heat. [Tony:] Right. And a low-grade fuel? [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Why doesn't that give us a lot of heat? [speaker001:] It doesn't react very well. [Tony:] Right. What doesn't react very well out of that lot? [speaker001:] Er... carbon. Carbon.... [Tony:] Well look. [speaker001:] Oxygen. [Tony:] You've got three things in blast furnace gas.... Nitrogen, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Which one burns? [speaker001:] Nitrogen. Carbon monoxide. [Tony:] The carbon monoxide. What about the nitrogen and the carbon dioxide? Do they burn? [speaker001:] No. [Tony:] No. So th most of that doesn't burn.... So... out of a large quantity of fuel... this blast furnace gas, only a little bit will actually burn to give you heat. But there's still enough to make it worth their while doing it. Talking about carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide poisoning. How can you deliberately give yourself carbon monoxide poisoning to a mild degree? [speaker001:] Get in a car and put. . [Tony:] That that tends to be a little bit permanent. I was thinking of a slightly less permanent way and one which the Chancellor's made slightly more expensive.... [speaker001:] Erm... [whispering] Cigarettes. [] Cigarettes. [Tony:] Cigarettes. That's right. [speaker001:] Oh yes of course. [Tony:] Okay Ashley. Cigarettes. The average smoker at any one time has approximately ten percent of their blood out of action with carbon monoxide poisoning.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] That's why a blood donor if they've given a pint of blood... they're told not to smoke afterwards if they're a smoker. The reason being that having given up ten percent of their blood... roughly, er in the blood donation... if they then continue to erm... smoke afterwards, they they'll knock another ten percent of what's left out. They may be dropping their... oxygen carrying capacity of their blood to a level at which they pass out.... So er... that's... how people deliberately give themselves carbon monoxide poisoning although perhaps without realizing it. Simon. [speaker001:] Sir right, you know if you... go for a blood transfusion and you're a smoker, how do you know that when you have the transfusion you won't get the ten percent of the blood that's not working properly? [Tony:] What it is, is that it would be averaged out over the blood as a whole. And just bear in mind that if you're having a blood transfusion, you could actually be having having the blood of a smoker. Other things are if the erm person giving [speaker001:] Yeah but wouldn't that get you hooked on smoking? [Tony:] It wouldn't be enough to get you hooked, no. But bear in mind that if the person [speaker001:] What if there were plenty of smokers? [Tony:] ... If there were? [speaker001:] Plenty of smokers. [Tony:] ... It still wouldn't be enough er nicotine to get you addicted to cigarettes. The addiction takes quite a time to develop.... The erm... other side of the coin is if the blood donor has had a liquid lunch... And what do I mean by liquid [speaker001:] Boozing. [Tony:] lunch Fiona? [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Boozing. Right. If they've been boozing, you could end up with erm enough blood... to [speaker001:] . [Tony:] make you quite er high. [speaker001:] Ooh. Yeah you you. . If you go for a pint at dinnertime you'd... Yeah you're driving and you Can't you get done for drink driving? Yeah. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] If you needed a blood transfusion er you're not likely to be driving a car straight afterwards. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] You tend to be rather poorly which is why they've given you the blood transfusion. But they are extremely careful. The only things that they don't seem to worry too much about your having taken beforehand are alcohol and smoking, cigarettes. If you've got carbon monoxide poisoning... one of the problems is that your blood can't carry the oxygen because the... red blood cells are being put out of action by the carbon monoxide. You form carbonyl haemoglobin which er doesn't carry oxygen. How do you treat somebody... who's er... had carbon monoxide poisoning? [speaker001:] Give them plenty of oxygen. [Tony:] Right. Now the problem is with this that the blood as is it won't normally take it up. So what can be done if you live near... er a naval town or North sea support town to actually get that oxygen into the bloodstream?... [speaker001:] Oh erm... ask them if you can sit in one of those er machines that erm get you out of the bends. [Tony:] Right. Absolutely right. Yes. Er the h it's called hyperbaric oxygen. Basically what they do is they stick you in one of these divers' decompression chambers, [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [Tony:] flood it with oxygen, and you're putting so much oxygen in... that the normal mechanism of the oxygen combining with the haemoglobin in the red blood cells is bypassed and the oxygen under high pressure will actually dissolve straight into the bloodstream. That's how you get the bends because the oxygen nitrogen have dissolved directly into the blood.... So that it's actually the blood itself carrying the oxygen round in solution. And you keep the person in that condition long enough for the damaged red cells to be replaced. The only problem is if you don't happen to live near a port... which has one of these hyperbaric er diving chambers then you've problems that erm... just putting a mask over the person and giving them oxygen that way is normally isn't enough. It may actually paralyse the person and put them on erm a life-support machine. [speaker001:] footballers sort of when footballers get injuries they go in them to get fit quicker.. [Tony:] You're right Duncan. Do you know why? [speaker001:] ... No. [Tony:] Well,... instead of just saying no, how about taking it through and working it out?... When you're growing new muscle... or replacing tissue... what is needed? Apart from the food to supply the proteins to make that muscle, what else?... What do you need all the time? [speaker001:] Oxygen. [Tony:] Oxygen, right. Some of that oxygen's used in the processes, together with the proteins to repair damages tissue. So if you increase the amount of oxygen present, what happens then?... [speaker001:] The tissue will heal quicker. [Tony:] The tissue will heal up quicker. And that's the way it works. Another advantage is, and this is another case for being put in one of these hyperbaric oxygen chambers, if you've got... erm... an anaerobic infection. Now, anaerobic... [phone rings] Excuse me. [speaker001:] .... [Tony:] [phone rings] Think of Jane Fonda and aerobics and I'll come back to you. [talking into telephone] [shouting] Can you be quiet please? [] I can't hear on the phone. Thank you. [talking into telephone]. [shouting] Right folks. Sorry about that. Happened yet again. Erm []... that was er Steve from the Youth Centre because we've just er told him how much it's going to cost him to use the school premises next year, and he's thrown a dickey fit. [speaker001:] Who? Good. [Tony:] The youth leader. [speaker001:] Oh. [Tony:] Erm... because the problem is the school's s now supposed to be making economic charges... er which involves caretaker's fees plus heating costs and everything. Erm and it comes to quite a high figure and he's not happy. [speaker001:] . Sir school trips? . Yeah. [Tony:] At the moment at the moment I don't know because er I had er one or two problems with organizing that. But I will leave that with me and I'll come back to you. [speaker001:] Sir could you do something because ages ago you promised to do a chip-pan fire for us. Yeah! Yeah Sir I And you still haven't done one. Every time you've done [Tony:] I haven't forgotten the chip-pan fire. [speaker001:] Every time you've done the chip-pan fire I've always missed out. . Yeah. [Tony:] Yes. I will er demonstrate it again. That is the... the effects on the ceiling are the effects of the last one. I'm going to be doing one or two more... over the next erm... few weeks or so. I will do it for you. Because then when it's been er finished I'm going to repaint the ceiling to cover up the [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Well, I'm s sure if you wanted to I could give you the paint and you can do it for me. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] You'll notice it doesn't. It doesn't. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] If you notice the smoke and flames reached somewhere nearly to Duncan's head. Last time. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Which was quite effective. Back to the blast furnace. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] We've got our four elements going in, four main components. We've got coke, iron ore, limestone and hot air. Hot air is blown in to the furnace. We've got the blast furnace gas and dust coming off the top, and the dust's removed and the blast furnace gas is used as a fuel. Coming out at the bottom, comes out what?... [speaker001:] At the bottom? Ash, Sir. [Tony:] No. [speaker001:] Iron? [Tony:] Iron. Right. Molten iron.... [speaker001:] Which is very hot indeed. [Tony:] Yeah. Which is why in the iron and steelmaking trade they refer to the molten iron as hot metal.... If you were to let that iron cool, what form of iron would you actually have? [speaker001:] Is it steel? [Tony:] No.... It's not steel yet, we've got to convert it into steel.... What's that iron [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Solid iron. Begins with C.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Four-letter word. [speaker001:] Cast iron. [Tony:] Cast iron. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Good, right. Okay. says it's cast iron. Now cast iron, if you are in the metal workshops... and you are hitting something with a hammer and you hit the vice instead, Mr will throw a scranny at you. Why? [speaker001:] snap and break. [Tony:] Because it will snap and break, yes. Cast iron is very brittle.... Which is one of the reasons, by the way, why another thing you will get murdered for in the er workshops is taking two hammers and hitting the heads against each other, because they're hardened and y they may well shatter quite explosively if you do that. [speaker001:] Why would you wanna do that? [Tony:] Pupils do all sorts of peculiar things. [speaker001:] .... [Tony:] So cast iron is brittle.... So what is cast iron used for?... [speaker001:] Making vices? [Tony:] Yes. Because [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Well not d er it's a special form of steel for hammers. But in a vice, what are you putting that cast iron under? Are you stretching it or squashing it? [speaker001:] Squashing. [Tony:] Squashing. So cast iron is extremely good under compression. If you stretch it it cracks very easily. So cast iron res resists crushing better than steel does.... Cast iron is an alloy. That's a mixture of... two elements. Normally alloys are mixtures of two metals. But in this case, for cast iron, it's a metal and a non-metal. Which is the metal, first of all?... For cast iron, pretty obvious.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Iron. Right. And what have we put lots of in the blast furnace, all that black stuff?... [speaker001:] Slag. Coke. Coke. The [Tony:] Coke. Right. Which is carbon. So cast iron is approximately... four percent carbon. It's an alloy of iron and carbon.... That makes It's the carbon that makes it brittle. And during the steelmaking process the excess carbon is burnt off by injecting what gas into the molten iron? [speaker001:] Carbon monoxide.... [Tony:] Much more reactive than carbon monoxide. Carbon... er er er. Not carbon anything. Take the last bit. [speaker001:] Oxide. . [Tony:] Oxygen. Yes. So beside a steel works you will have an oxygen-making plant because they actually use oxygen by the ton.... Simon said something interesting earlier about the s the iron works. You said it runs... all the time. Yes. [speaker001:] Yeah. . [Tony:] David said then. Iron runs a... iron works run all the time. It's a continuous process.... How does that compare with steelmaking?... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Yeah. Steelmaking is a batch process... a bit like making a cake, where you put all the ingredients in together bake the cake, then put another batch of ingredients, bake another cake. With steelmaking they work in er two hundred and fifty tonnes roughly at a time, pour it in the basic oxygen steelmaking furnace, blow oxygen into the steel which takes about twenty minutes, then the steel... with one or two other processes is basically ready to be used. But it's a batch process, whereas ironmaking's continuous.... Now, cast iron contains four percent carbon. When I had a lock that was sticking what did I blow What powder I did I blow into the lock to make it work better? [speaker001:] Baking powder. [Tony:] No. [speaker001:] Yeast? [Tony:] Got to tie up with the cast iron.... It's black powder... [speaker001:] Coke. [Tony:] Also Well, coke is [speaker001:] Carbon. [Tony:] Carbon. In what form? Beginning with G.... [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Tony:] Er diamond is one form. What's the other form?... [speaker001:] . Oh, gold? Graphite. . [Tony:] Used in pencils. [speaker001:] Graphite. [Tony:] Graphite. Good. So graphite... is the black form of carbon. Diamond is the other form. And graphite, cos I blew this graphite powder into the lock it acts as a what?... [speaker001:] Oh a lubricant. Lubricant. Lubricant. [Tony:] Lubricant. So graphite is a dry lubricant. Now why don't you put oil in a conventional lock? [speaker001:] It would clog it up. [Tony:] Right. Because the oil would attract dust and the d oil dries up and the leaves the dust deposits sort of caked inside the lock, and it will... clog it up.... Graphite is a dry lubricant. Cast iron contains a lot of graphite, proportionately.... Right? So can you give me a use of cast iron which ha one of the effects of it is that it relies on the... occasional lubricating properties of the... graphite in the iron?... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Er... ice? [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] Er clue, it helped me to come to school this morning. [speaker001:] Car. [Tony:] Right. [speaker001:] Moped. [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] So... so what do you make the cylinder block out of?... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Cast iron. Why cast iron? Because... cast iron's hard. What do you make the piston out of? [speaker001:] Cast iron. Oh steel. Steel. [Tony:] No.... You want to be light and a good conductor of heat. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] A light metal. [speaker001:] Aluminium. [Tony:] Aluminium. Right. Your pistons are aluminium... because you want a light weight because it going up and down, and if it's very heavy... when th the connecting rod wants to pull it back down again it will want to carry on straight out through the top of the cylinder head. So you want a light weight and a good conductor of heat.... And you have a... hard metal sliding against a soft metal, because that actually produces less wear than two hard metals rubbing together. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Now normally your cylinder is lubricated by what? [speaker001:] Oil. [Tony:] Oil. If the oil film breaks down momentarily... for a very short period of time that little bit of carbon that four percent carbon in the cast iron will actually stop the aluminium sticking... to the cylinder. So the graphite it actually helps to make it self-lubricating. To a certain extent. Now obviously nobody would be daft enough to try running a car without oil,... although some of the garages doing their P D I 's, pre-delivery inspections, can cause that sort of problem. The one I was thinking of in fact was a poor lady who bought a Ford Escort from er what was then Garage, it's now in Daybrook. [speaker001:] Oh yeah. Oh yeah yeah, I know. [Tony:] Right. Opposite builders merchant. [speaker001:] Near the train station. [Tony:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Near the what? [speaker001:] Well... er you can see the train station [school bell rings] from there. Think you mean railway station. Where? [Tony:] [sounds of chairs scraping] [shouting] Hang on a second. Wait. Let me just finish this off. [] It was delivered from Ford on a transporter to in Daybrook,... run off the transporter, they did the P D I, she went to collect her brand new car and got as far as Kwik-Save in Sherwood. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] That's when the engine seized solid because there was no oil in the engine. They forgot to check the oil. [speaker001:] . Right, see you sir.

[speaker001:] . Thank you very much.... [students' voices in background] Let's have a look at this finger.... [shouting] Gentlemen can we have a bit of quiet please? Assif, Neil, Colin. [] . [Tony:] What did you do to that finger, Lisa? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I slammed it in the car door. [] [Tony:] Slammed it in the car door. Sorry about that. I'm doing a Mr. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [] [Tony:] Right. Don't worry.... Where did you slam it? [speaker001:] Here. Across there.... [students' voices in background] [Tony:] [shouting] Gentlemen. []... This may hurt a little bit.... Right.... Ladies and gentlemen. [speaker001:] [sigh]... [Tony:] Er just... quietly while I'm checking... Lisa's finger. What's happened Lisa Look, if I press those two fingers, can you see they go white? [speaker001:] Yes. [Tony:] That one goes red and that one stays white much longer.... The circulation to that finger is poor... and I think there's something interfering with the circulation. Also... I know you had it bandaged up but the skin there has gone white... and I honestly think that ought to be X-rayed. [speaker001:] . [sigh] [Tony:] To be perfectly blunt with you... I would suggest that... erm... that wants doing fairly urgently. It wants checking over. Can I just feel If you lift your hand, would you please? [speaker001:] It er it's not that bad. It doesn't hurt. [Tony:] ... Yeah it's not that I'm worried about.... Would you have a feel Kelly? [speaker001:] Mm. [Tony:] Can you tell whether you think that finger's colder than the rest?... [speaker001:] Yeah.. [Tony:] ... Yes I think so. Your circulation to that is poor and that wants looking at quite urgently.... Seriously. Erm is anybody at home? [speaker001:] No. [Tony:] I think you ought to get that X-rayed.... [shouting] Right.... Ladies and gentlemen. []... [speaker001:] Sir, why have you got that on your er? [Tony:] Right er let me explain briefly what's going on.... Mr 's daughter, I think it's his daughter, er is working for the British National Corpus and they are looking at... the how words are used in ordinary everyday situations. And what they've done is they've asked various volunteers, mugs, call them what you will, to be er recorded... while they are carrying their out their normal duties. So [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] I might have known [speaker001:] . [Tony:] it would you be you Ashley. [speaker001:] Is it on?. [Tony:] It is on, yes. [speaker001:] . When do you switch if off? Whe wh wh when you get a bit angry? [Tony:] Let me just very briefly read you one or two of the things it says. [reading] We are asking a large cross-section of people and organizations around the country to help by allowing us to record their conversations, [] [speaker001:] ! [Tony:] [reading] meetings, broadcasts and so on both in private homes and on company premises. These recordings will then be transcribed onto computer and built into a database which will contain several million words. [] [speaker001:] Why? [LAUGHTER] Sir, how long's the tape? . [Tony:] Forty five minutes. And the aim is that the conversations are going to be anonymous and they are trying to compile a dictionary of words that people actually use, rather than a dictionary for people who do crosswords. [speaker001:] Oh. Sir will you erm wh if you change the tape will you tell us? [Tony:] Well I've er turned the tape over after side one, which was my first lesson and I'm now doing side two, which is this lesson... and... the idea is to look at the s way in which language is used. [speaker001:] [puking noise] [LAUGHTER].. [Tony:] It is very interesting the way two different groups react to the same situation. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Now the other group... realizing that of course this is serious research project were of course [speaker001:] Wh wh wh! [Tony:] [LAUGHTER] quite sensible []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] On the other hand there are people like Neil and Assif who are obviously trying to make names for themselves. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] Right. Er ladies and gentlemen... [speaker001:] Sir, er can you pick up from away with that? [Tony:] Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... . [Tony:] Thank you.... My teaching point starting off today... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Thank you. Is starting off from Lisa's fingers. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Eh? Eh? Why what what did she do? . She trapped them in a car door. [LAUGHTER] There you go Sir.... [Tony:] Now... there's a serious point from starting from there because... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] There are three main components of your blood.... White cells, [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Yep.... Next one? [speaker001:] Red blood cells. Red cells. [Tony:] Red cells. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] No they don't absorb carbon dioxide. [speaker001:] Alright then [Tony:] It's the plasma that does this, which is your last one. Alright. So your three components. Your major part of your blood is the plasma which carries the carbon dioxide away, the red cells carry the oxygen and the white cells fight disease. And the red cells are far more numerous than the white cells. What... Erm bit of revision for the biologists, what is special... about the er red cells? Why are they different from all other cells? [speaker001:] No nucleus. [Tony:] No nucleus, right.... The red cells contain which... element? [speaker001:] Haemoglobin. [Tony:] Well haemoglobin... is [speaker001:] . [Tony:] ... Haemoglobin is the red colouring compound that carries the oxygen and gives the red cells their colour.... What element has to be present in haemoglobin? [speaker001:] Iron. [Tony:] Iron.... Right. That is why somebody who is sort of iron is anaemic. Shortage of iron makes people breathless, get tired very easily, the reason being that there is not enough oxygen being carried round the blood. That's why somebody who's anaemic and somebody who's got blood loss suffer very similar symptoms. In both cases, although for quite different reasons, there's not enough oxygen being carried round body.... Now iron... is the crucial element there, and it gives it this red coloration.... When you suffer bruising... you what you're doing is... rupturing the capillaries in the er skin. So the capillaries... are the very fine tubes that carry the blood around... the body. And for the biologists again if er... if you look at the capillaries in the body, there is no cell in the body requiring a blood supply that is more than one fortieth of a millimetre away from a capillary. So your capillaries are all over the place. Now if you damage... yourself by whatever way, and the classic one that we see at school is if you get banged in the eye in rugby, somebody elbows you in the scrum or something similar,... you then get a swelling caused by what? What's happening? [speaker001:] Fluid. [Tony:] Fluid, yes. The blood is actually leaking out of the capillaries... into the surrounding tissues and you get several effects.... So let us say... er well let's take an example, you've just been er hit in the eye by a hockey ball hit by our friend Jonathan. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] A sort of typical everyday school accident. Or you've been er clouted on the elbow by Jonathan with a hockey stick or something similar. [speaker001:] Or whacked in the face by Natalie. [Tony:] Mm.... Well apparently rumour has it that the doctor at the hospital who dealt with these last cases was saying words to the effect that er Jonathan just put Jonathan in a situation and he'd keep the hospital in business for evermore. So... let us say you've been hit in the eye... accidentally by a hockey ball.... Very soon afterwards because of that blood leaking into the tissues, what is that wound that injury going to do? [speaker001:] Swell Sir. [Tony:] Swell.... It's going to swell. Because of the blood coming out oozing out under pressure into the surrounding area.... What colour is it going to be? [speaker001:] Red. [Tony:] Pardon? [speaker001:] Blue. [Tony:] Red.... Right. So a black eye starts off red, and it starts off red because of the blood leaked into the skin. If you feel it what is it going to feel? [speaker001:] Sir.... Sore. [Tony:] Well apart from feeling sore. It's going to hurt, right, cos of nerve damage. If you actually feel its temperature? [speaker001:] Warm. [Tony:] It's going to be warm. The reason it's warm is because of all that warm blood that's leaked into it. So when you first get a bruise injury those are the sorts of things that happen.... The chemistry comes in... as to what happens later on. Now the red blood cells and so on have leaked out into the surrounding tissues.... They are then the fluid eventually absorbed and the swelling starts to decrease. What colours does it then start to turn? [speaker001:] Yellow. Er green. [Tony:] Right. Blue,... black,... purple,... green,... [speaker001:] Violet, orange. [Tony:] yellow, [speaker001:] . [Tony:] ... And you get a real spectrum of colour changes.... And the reason for those... is the iron in the... blood is being oxidized... by various substances in the body, it's being broken down into a form in which the body can reabsorb that iron,... and during the process you go through all these colour changes because of the different forms of iron oxide being produced. So when you get a bruise that's a nice yellow colour, yellowy-green, you know it's a very old bruise. When we're doing first aid incidents erm... the standard thing we're doing for adults... when they're doing a first aid exam is we'll give present them with a casualty with perhaps a cut hand or something like that and they'll actually have a black eye.... And quite a lot of the adults will try and treat a black eye. Now when I say a black eye I mean one that actually looks blue-black and is quite swollen.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] What's the point about that black eye? [speaker001:] It's old. [Tony:] It's an old injury, yes. If it's gone black it's a least a couple of days old.... So... chemistry in action. When you start turning funny colours... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] tha... that's because the iron is er being broken down in the body.... Now.... taking the chemistry a little bit further,... there are two sorts... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Tony:] ... Thank you very much.... There are two sorts of conditions in the body.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Right. What does what is Jane Fonda into in in a big way? [speaker001:] . [Tony:] [LAUGHTER] And don't answer that one [], I want the honest legal answer. [speaker001:] Fit erm fitness things. [Tony:] Fitness things. Called what? [speaker001:] Several ways to. . [Tony:] Come on.... [speaker001:] Aerobics. [Tony:] Aerobics, right. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Right. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] This is actually... tying this up with an exam question, I was looking through some past papers to try and spot things we may not have covered in detail.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Aerobics. The whole point about aerobics is that your exercise is done with plenty of? [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Oxygen, right. So the key thing with aerobics is lots and lots of oxygen. That means that... the food in the body is burnt up totally and effectively. What... fuel does our body actually use at the muscle level?... What fuel does our body actually use at the muscle level? Produced by our livers from the food that we eat. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Right, you're on the right lines.... It's... it's sugar. Er you mentioned glucose in fact the one that is actually... produced [speaker001:] Dextrose. [Tony:] Dextrose.... If you are very ill,... to save your liver having to do any conversion work to convert sucrose, glucose into dextrose, you're actually given dextrose and saline solution because your muscles can use the dextrose... erm straightaway without any further conversion. So when you're very ill you get dextrose and saline. The salt is to make up for any salt that you lose. So aerobics look at burning that oxygen with the sugar effectively and completely.... A sprinter... will actually work in different way altogether. [speaker001:] Anaerobic. [Tony:] Anaerobic. Good. Now... [speaker001:] Anaerobic sludge. [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] Yep, we'll come along to anaerobic sludge later. Anaerobic... er... is without enough oxygen. Now a sprinter beforehand will actually be on the blocks and will take in a lot of oxygen to try and saturate as much oxygen into their blood as possible,... so that when that gun goes off they will aim to have all of their red cells where possible carrying oxygen.... During that ten second or less dash for the line... they will actually be using up oxygen faster than their bodies can take it in. That's why sprinters when they cross the line very often collapse... many of them, because they've used up their oxygen so much so that there's not got enough and their brain switches off momentarily and they collapse. Till they They faint effectively. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] And they use anaerobic conditions. They don't have enough oxygen because you just can't breathe fast enough to use up that oxygen in that tremendous burst of power. That's why sprinters can't keep it up.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Ana Anaero. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [Tony:] [LAUGHTER] I'm going to wish I hadn't said that. [] Anaerobic conditions... m er mean that the sugar the dextrose is burnt with the oxygen and actually forms... lactic acid. Now lactic acid. Now lactic acid... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] ... Yeah lactic acid... [speaker001:] Is poisonous. [Tony:] is poisonous in one sense. [speaker001:] Gives you stitch. [Tony:] What Yes. Neil, say it again. [speaker001:] Gives you stitch and cramps. [Tony:] Yes, gives you stitch and cramps. Yes. [speaker001:] Cramp? [Tony:] That's why when you've been running hard... you've got the stitch or whatever, that's caused a buildup of lactic acid in the... er... muscles,... what you then do [sigh] is your muscles say, Enough. You end up er collapsed, taking deep breaths, and what that is trying to do is that the deep breaths are circulating oxygen into the body, the oxygen is then able to break down the lactic acid into other substances which are less harmful. [speaker001:] Sir, on that after you've had food does... more fre more often than when you've had nothing to eat? [Tony:] Right.... Good question. If you take food... Food is absorbed in a form which your body cannot directly use. So you don't get bacon and eggs er floating round your bloodstream. So for that to happen... for that food to be converted into a form that your body can use it's got to be broken down. Broken down in your liver, and your liver has to do work. Yes? The liver to do that work has to have a very very good supply of oxygen.... If it's breaking down lots of food, a really heavy meal, then it's actually maybe making such a big demand on the oxygen level in your bloodstream that your oxygen level in your bloodstream drops and there's not enough to go round the muscles to make to break up any lactic acid that's being formed. Because your heart isn't being given the triggers that says, Hey, I'm exercising, I need to pump more blood round the body because I'm doing exercise. The liver's just quietly working away churning this food into blood sugars, using up quite a high level of oxygen, and the rest of the body is suffering. That's why overeating's considered bad for you. Taking it a stage further... we've got a situation... where we have two types of bacteria.... Two types of microbe. We have... aerobic bacteria, which need plenty of oxygen, and anaerobic bacteria which do not like oxygen. And somebody mentioned earlier, I suspect it was Colin over at the back, or one of those... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] about anaerobic sludge. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] And at the sewage treatment works... And this again is on the syllabus folks, so you need to bear it in mind, The sewage works, they make use of both sorts of bacteria. In the early stages of the sewage works when they're dealing with the liquid they use aerobic bacteria. So they warm up the water sometimes, they either blow warm air through or at Stoke Bardolph they whip up the erm... sewage with fans which beat air into the water, and the aerobic bacteria digest some of the harmful substances in the sewage. The sludge is then separated off, and that is heated in tanks... away from oxygen where anaerobic bacteria break the sludge down into an odourless substance and produce methane gas. The methane gas is then used as a fuel round the rest of the power s er in the power station to provide electricity for the rest of the sewage works. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] So you have two sides to this. Aerobics, anaerobic bacteria. Now anaerobic bacteria include things like erm... tetanus, and another one, which is lovely, is gas gangrene.... Let's have a look at tetanus first of all.... Where do you find tetanus bacteria living?... [speaker001:] Hopefully not in you. [Tony:] Hopefully not in you. Yes, I'd agree with that.... [speaker001:] In the dirt. In the ground. [Tony:] Yeah. That's right.... Soil. Particularly in soil in areas where there've been cows and things in the past. And if you think of the country as a whole,... er you'll find tetanus in most... areas of the country. For example, here is an old farm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] It's an old what? [] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Well if you look at it, this was called Top Valley Farm because it was the... highest valley coming out of the city.... The farm that was here we've got the name Old Farm Road because of the farm. When this school first opened the estate over there hadn't been built yet, and the farm buildings where still there when the school first opened. [speaker001:] The what estate? [Tony:] . The estate. [speaker001:] The what estate? . [Tony:] . The estate where you've got and er and all those names.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Just down there Assif. [shouting] Right, gentlemen. []... Now then. If you scratch yourself... and you get soil into it. For example, there was a dear old lady who was pruning her roses, scratched herself on a rose, and er a little bit later died quite horribly of tetanus.... The only thing she'd done is make a small scratch with a rose thorn and was unfortunate enough to get a piece of contaminated soil [speaker001:] Sir, when did it... stopped being compulsory for you to have a tetanus... jab? [Tony:] It's not actually compulsory now. Er you [speaker001:] But they like... sort of push you to have one don't they. [Tony:] They do indeed. And the reasons I'll come onto in a moment. Cos I'll er... thought I'd explain to you what happens with tetanus.... The reasons they push it on you is that... young people particularly do activities that are liable to get infection. Like for example, you get flaps of skin ripped off by er people's football boots and you get soil underneath the flap of skin and obviously you've got ripe conditions for tetanus infection to get in.... As an adult,... adults... such as myself haven't been through the procedure as a young person where your immune system's been challenged by the vaccine... so that you've developed tetanus antibodies.... You will have been protected hopefully from birth, or shortly after birth, by the tetanus vaccine, which will have caused you to produce antibodies against it. And because of that, I believe they recommend when you're stop your school vaccinations, you have a top-up every ten years. Now in my case,... I... have got buried away in the depths of here somewhere... my tetanus vaccine card. If I can fi Here it is.... The doctor who last saw this said, It's somewhat of a museum piece. As you can see, it's just er mm Even with its sort of [speaker001:] . [Tony:] ... plastic cover to try and keep it nice it's looking a little bit er worse for wear. The reason is that in fact I acquired this... on the thirteenth of August nineteen seventy two. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I wasn't even born then. [] [Tony:] That's right. So that is twenty one years old.... Not only that, it says [reading] The accident department in Nottingham General Hospital []. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Exactly. Erm so that shows what a long time ago it was.... And it says [reading] You have been given one injection of tetanus vaccine absorbed and another of tetanus antitoxin. These will protect you for a short time against tetanus. [] Now you lot have all have the tetanus... vaccine.... You haven't had the tetanus antitoxin. And you're about to say, hopefully, what is the difference? The difference is that your body takes a long time to react to the tetanus antitoxin... Sorry, to the tetanus vaccine, to make antibodies against it. During the time that your body is trying to make... the antibodies against the infection... that infection may well spread so rapidly through your body that you become seriously ill, indeed, your life may be threatened.... To protect people who haven't have your course of vaccinations, what they do is they inject the tetanus vaccine into a horse.... The horse makes antibodies. They then draw off some of the horse's blood, remove the serum containing the antibodies, return the blood to the horse,... and these horses are used for producing the tetanus erm antibodies. So what you get is an injection of the vaccine like you have and a legful of the horse serum.... And the horse serum er allows the tetanus antibodies from the horse to fight any infection you have got. [speaker001:] How come they use the horse Sir? Why a horse? [Tony:] Because a horse has got plenty of blood and doesn't miss a bit of blood drained off and then returned.... [whispering] Right. [] Also a big animal like a horse produces lots and lots of antibodies. Now the problem is this, human beings are not horses. And when you've had your tetanus [speaker001:] . [Tony:] When you've had your tetanus antibodies from the horse serum you then normally develop an allergy to the horse serum. If you then get it a second time... you will then possibly have an allergic reaction to the horse serum. Now you don't get tetanus cards to carry because you've not had the horse serum. I have to carry my tetanus card so that if I was er injured and unconscious and not being able to say that I've had the horse serum, the doctor thinking, Oh look look he's got lots of soil in that cut, er give him a quick injection of the horse serum, that could actually be fatal.... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Now lockjaw, tetanus. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Tetanus is a anaerobic... [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Thank you very mu [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. . [Tony:] Thank you very much for telling me. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Right.... As I was saying the er... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Tetanus the old name is lockjaw.... And it's an anaerobic condition that gets into the nervous system and causes nerve paralysis in such a way that you get acute muscular contractions. What happens is this, that your You know you've got two sets of muscles? Your muscles normally works in pairs. There's one muscle that pulls your arm that way and another that pulls it back again. I think the proper word is, and biologists will correct me if I'm wrong, antagonistic muscles. [speaker001:] . Yeah, that's right. [Tony:] One works one way, one works t'other. Now... in lockjaw [speaker001:] . [Tony:] what happens is both muscles contract together fully.... So you've got one muscle trying to pull your arm that way, another muscle trying to pull your arm that way, and your muscles become rigid and locked.... There h have been cases where the person's back muscles have pulled up so tight that their... they've formed an arch. Their head has been in t touch with the bed, their heels, but the whole body's been arched like a bow with the contraction of these muscles. [speaker001:] . Does this happen in your... jaw, or? [Tony:] No, it's all over your body. But it's called lockjaw because er one of the stages is that your jaw actually locks solid. [speaker001:] Is there any like a cure or have you got to? [Tony:] Yes there is. [speaker001:] death. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Mm. Well that's what I was going to come to. There are now only two places in the country that actually deal with tetanus poisoning.... One is Oxford and the other is in Leeds. Er [speaker001:] Sir, what do they do in Scotland then? [Tony:] You're flown down in helicopter to Leeds. [speaker001:] Is that how common it is, Sir? Yeah but if you're in your arch how? [Tony:] How common is it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Yeah but it doesn't come on quickly Assif. [speaker001:] Oh. [Tony:] It's quite a slow disease. And that that lies in the problem, because it's so rare now doctors have a great difficulty in diagnosing it. Right Neil, the reason is, at one stage there was er centres all over the country that could treat it. It has become so rare thanks to vaccination... that there's only two n places needed i to cover the whole country, Scotland included.... How do you treat it?... And the answer is... [whispering] Thank you. [] When you have an operation these days that's lasting anything more than just er a couple of minutes or so, they will insert down your windpipe an endotracheal airway, which is a tube that goes down into your windpipe to seal into the windpipe, so if you vomit, for example, no vomit can down round that tube. It comes out of your mouth and instead of a mask over your face, your this tube connects directly to the... ventilator and the anaesthetic machine. In order that you don't fight this ventilator, and also that you don't start twitching when they start carving you up, they inject you with a chemical er a muscle depolarizer that stops your muscles working. Now the only muscle that doesn't stop working [speaker001:] Heart. [Tony:] is your heart, because that's a special sort of muscle. So you are completely and totally paralysed. You cannot, literally, move a muscle. The only muscle in your body that's still working is your heart.... [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] And you are left in this condition during the operation, then at the end of the operation they give you a second injection that reverses the first one that paralysed you. [speaker001:] Any side effects? [Tony:] No, but I'll come onto some effects that it did have in a moment. Now. If you've got tetanus, to stop you breaking your back with these muscle contractions, so that they can nurse you adequately, they inject you with this stuff and you are paralysed until the tetanus has been fought off. They will give you the antitoxin, they will give you the vaccination, and they will keep you breathing. Cos what normally happens is with tetanus, that the reason it kills you is that you stop breathing because your muscles... that work your lungs, the diaphragm, the intercostal muscles between the ribs, those seize up and you just stop breathing. So if they can keep you breathing... and get your body to produce the necessary antibodies, then they can cure you. But it may take three months, so you are three months possibly on a ventilator. What will happen is, at regular intervals they'll take you off the ventilator... inject you with the er... antidote to the depolarizer and see if your muscles lock up. If they do, another injection, tube back down and back on the life-support machine. Now bear in mind that you may be up anything up to three months in a condition where you're completely and totally unable to move a muscle... for yourself. That's [speaker001:] Ugh [Tony:] ... [tut] That's why it's specialized nursing, because the nurses have to do everything for you. [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] The physiotherapists... will come round and they come round regularly and exercise your muscles [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] to try and stop them wasting away. [speaker001:] . Which ones do they? [Tony:] Legs and arms, particularly. [speaker001:] Oh. But there's another one. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Now just imagine you are imagine being paralysed by this drug and yet being fully awake. You can't do move your eyes,... er so your eyes are actually taped closed to stop anything going in them. Just imagine lying [speaker001:] Can you see? [Tony:] there... continuously. Well the answer is you'd go stark staring raving mad. So what they normally do is they also give you by continuous intravenous drip They f have to feed you by this tube, [speaker001:] . [Tony:] and they also give you erm a suitable... relaxant erm so you go into what's called t twilight sleep. So you're not really conscious but you're not really unconscious [speaker001:] . [Tony:] and you don't care what's happening to you. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] And you'll spend three months of your life like that.... Now then, Assif was asking were there any side effects. Let's have a look. There is a certain Asian anaesthetist who used to work at the... City Hospital Maternity Unit.... I say used to because he's been struck off the medical register.... What's he done to get that? The answer's simple.... When you have a general anaesthetic for a caesarean section or a general anaesthetic in general, you are... first of all given a pre-med. Now the pre-medication is a drug based on atropine which has erm... I'm not really Anti-something- or-other and er I can't pronounce the words concerned. But it h er has certain effects which basically cause muscle relaxation, small amount of muscle relaxation, dries up the saliva in your throat. Cos obviously if you having an operation they've got this tube down your throat and your mouth starts filling up with saliva, they've got to suck it out. So this drug makes you very dry, also makes you drowsy, the idea being that you're basically not going to worry about what's happening to you.... [speaker001:] Pain. [Tony:] Okay.... You're then taken down into the operating theatre and the first injection you are given is usually something on the lines of erm... er special K, ketomine or the most common one is [speaker001:] thyropentone sodium because it's the cheapest. This is an injection of general anaesthetic into the vein, back of the hand, or the... ar arm, which puts you to sleep very quickly. Once you are asleep they then inject the muscle relaxant, put an endro-t tracheal airway into your throat, connect you up to the anaesthetic machine and get the life-support machine breathing for you. The ventilator.... So you are therefore paralysed... and, hopefully, because of the anaesthetic you've been given in the form of gas, things like er halothane, er enfluorane [shouting] Come in. []... Mr.... . [Tony:] Right. [speaker001:] Possible R O A, cross curricular, we'd like to keep that as it is but we can change that.... [students' voices in background] [Tony:] Looks reasonable.... [students' voices in background] Right. Oh, by the way Mr.... [students' voices in background] [speaker001:] Ah.... I've done that. [Tony:] You've done yours. Right. [speaker001:] . Sir, to do summat to do like... she was paralysed but she could still feel the pain? [Tony:] That's the one.... Yeah. And so this poor woman who was supposed to be asleep, And the problem is... that er it's very difficult to decide whether somebody's actually unconscious or not if they can't move. Now normally if you're not unconscious and they start cutting up open you're going to scream. [speaker001:] Yeah. But if you're paralysed you... [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Exactly. Now this poor woman... the anaesth Ah. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Sister. [speaker001:] Poor woman. [Tony:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm I've got a girl sitting down in the foyer. She is she she was just running and she's done something to something there. She's not in pain sitting in the foyer so what I've said is you'll look at her at break time. Can you? Cos I'm I would say she's pulled something but more than that [Tony:] Right. [speaker001:] I'm trying to sort out the e year eight sex education with Bernie at the moment. [Tony:] Oh well er [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] Yes. We're actually talking about erm er muscle er depolarizers [speaker001:] Oh right. [Tony:] used in general anae er anaesthesia, [speaker001:] Right. [Tony:] and I was telling them about that Indian or Asian doctor at the City Hospital in the Maternity unit. [speaker001:] Which one's that? [Tony:] Oh the one er who didn't give them enough anaesthetic so they woke up. [speaker001:] Oh right! Yes they woke up and they're carving them and cutting away, but couldn't say anything. [Tony:] That's right. [speaker001:] Yes. Brilliant, yes. She got quite a lot of money. [Tony:] Mm. Five hundred thousand wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yes. Was it a caesarean section? [Tony:] It was. [speaker001:] Yes that's right. I can't imagine. Anyway, she's she's sitting there [Tony:] . [speaker001:] but she's okay while she's sitting still. [Tony:] Right. I'll have a look at her. [speaker001:] Okay. [Tony:] Thanks, right.... [students' voices in background] [whispering] Right. [] [shouting] As I was saying. [] So this poor woman... is er anaesthetized, intubated, which is when they put the tube down the throat and connect you up to the life-support machine, and then she's supposed to be being maintained in her unconscious state with inhalation anaesthesia, in other words they give her er gas and air to breathe to keep her unconscious. Unfortunately this anaesthetist wasn't very good and he didn't give her enough. So she woke up.... Now bear in mind, she... er normally for an operation they normally tape your eyes closed, put a pad over your eyes as well, just in case they drop something on your face by mistake during the operation. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] So she's completely and totally paralysed... but she's paralysed and can feel pain. So she suddenly feels what's like something like a red-hot knife being put into her stomach. It wasn't a red-hot knife, it's just simply that the surgeon had taken this knife, started to carve her abdomen open, and the heat part of the heat was the actual blood that was coming out of this wound. [speaker001:] Ugh. [Tony:] And then of course they've got this soldering iron type thing called the diathermy cautery device that seals up the blood vessels and this is being stabbed into her. And all the time this is going on she is completely and totally aware of everything that's going on.... Now when they reverse... the erm... paralysis and take the tube out, the first thing she does, quite unsurprising, is screams,... and then proceeds to tell the doctors exactly what's happened to her. Now the doctors don't believe her. Until she starts to tell them word for word what they said during the operation.... And the next thing she does on recovery is file a criminal n erm... a sorry civil negligence suit against the anaesthetist. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Now... two things. Number one... is... erm if Er this is unlikely to happen today. For example, a member of staff in the school, who teaches not a million miles from here, had a hernia operation. And it was done at the convent hospital, where the anaesthetist there, not only gave this gentlemen a general anaesthetic... but also a spinal anaesthetic as well.... That's when you inject a chemical in the spine to paralyse the nerves below that site. So we're working on the principal that even if the person does wake up in the operation they're s not going to sue you cos they can't feel anything in the area you're operating in. [speaker001:] Sir? [Tony:] No.... The other side of that is that I was listening to Medicine Now on Radio Four, and they've got a device where they you actually have er an earpiece put into your ear... and it clicks continuously. [speaker001:] . [Tony:] Now... the idea is that er they put a couple of monitors and monitor your brainwaves. They put you to sleep and this clicking continues... [speaker001:] As soon as you start. [Tony:] and as soon as you er go to sleep your brain level drops.... So your r er reaction to these clicks drops. As you start to recover your brain's activity rises. So this device couple of... electrodes on the head, this device in the ear clicking away madly,... and they monitor The anaesthetist... s connects it all up, presses a button saying Awake, injects the person with the [speaker001:] thyropentone sodium, where they can assess the effect because they haven't paralysed the person yet, when the person stops responding and is asleep they press the button for Anaesthetized, and then the machine logs... the differences between the brain activity between the two. Then if the patient starts to wake up, this device sounds an alarm saying that the brain activity is increasing, and that is commensurate with the person waking up, so the anaesthetist knows that he's got to put a bit more anaesthetic into the person.... So hopefully that's going to stop this sort of thing happening in the future.... But er one of the major problems is that surgeons are trying to use less and less anaesthetic all the time. Can anybody suggest why?... Less side effects Sir. [Tony:] Yeah. Fewer side effects, that's right. Er [speaker001:] What's your chances of waking up then in an operation? [Tony:] Very small, thankfully. It's quite rare, which is why it made so much publicity. But the erm... chances of dying in an operation are one in one thousand eight hundred.... [speaker001:] Eh? [Tony:] Chances of dying in an operation are one in one thousand eight hundred. [speaker001:] Can you die of your pain? [Tony:] Er would be possible. Now before Neil starts panicking and worrying about that, bear in mind that that is spread over the whole spectrum of operations, including things like heart transplants and the like, and also, for example, an elderly person who's just been smashed up by er Astra G T E... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] and who's going in for emergency surgery and whose chances of coming out are virtually nil anyway.... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] So if you are a n relatively fit normal person your chances of survival are excellent. [speaker001:] are these the chances of surviving er a hernia operation or? [Tony:] For the average hernia operation which is done remember as cold surgery, not as an emergency, the chances of dying under the anaesthetic are vanishingly small.... [speaker001:] How small? [Tony:] Put it this way, you're probably at more risk of dying crossing the road. And er one of the reasons they've reduced the levels of anaesthetic is because the more they reduce the levels of anaesthetic, the lower your chances of dying during the anaesthesia.... Right.... Any questions... about that? [speaker001:] Yeah, what... what you got under your? You've got. [LAUGHTER]. [Tony:] I don't know. [tape change]

[speaker001:] . [Stan:] And we're [Mike:] Performing this lovely task for you in Cumbernauld in bonny Scotland. [Stan:] It's now quarter past nine. [Mike:] Your old man here has brought me all the way up here for a complete and utter waste of time [Stan:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] and has only offered to buy me one beer so far. [Stan:] Two. [Mike:] Two. [Stan:] Right.... [Mike:] Well let's see if that comes over.... [break in recording] That's if I can get this going.... Yeah. Right the idea of this [sigh] little chat this briefing before we go out and do the... er driving assessments next week is just to sort of give you an idea and a... and a bit of an inroad into what we're looking at and what we'll be doing next week. Now... er who did it last year amongst you? [sigh] I know Dougie did. [sigh] Two, three. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Must have been the year before you did it then. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Yeah. Right. So I mean obviously er if you've done it before And have y have you done one before at all? [speaker001:] I don't know.. My dad's. [Mike:] Did you? [speaker001:] Yeah. . There was one just prior to that. [Mike:] I think er [speaker001:] . . [Mike:] [whispering] That's quite a coincidence. [] Were they? [speaker001:] Mm. [Mike:] Well th the thing is those of you who did it last year with me, it'll follow much the same sort of format, so... Erm but we didn't do a little talk before. Now that idea was to get everybody together and erm because there have been certain members of the staff which haven't been looked at for a period of time they've escaped the net as it were in the last couple of times and it seems that we've had the same guys for the last three years and some have erm... [speaker001:] . [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] Well I suppose that's it you see. When you when you come up here and do the driving you find that erm because people are are just not available at the time and erm y I'm here just for a and Stan only here for a a limited period, and er you're sort of trying they're downstairs they're trying to get people... off the trucks when they come in or whatever the case may be to go out and do an assessment run, and it's not always possible. Now this time we're here for four weeks so... it would... probably be that they want to get everybody through this time without anybody escaping the net. And the the policy now with is that this will ta now take place I know that there's been somebody here for the last three years, but this will now take place every two years. So er... er whether or not it'll be the same faces c l as come up and do it er But it it shouldn't make that much difference. It will follow the same format. But of course it is nice to come back to the same places over and over again, sort of er... see friendly faces. [LAUGHTER]. And er it does make a bit of continuity. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] There's a few scowls and grimaces. [LAUGHTER]. Right, so... the company that we work for is and they are one of the a number of companies which... are operating in the fleet driver training market, and erm they we pren presently have the contract with for this f f course of defensive driver training. Now they call it defensive driver training and er what we're really talking about is safe driving, nothing more and nothing less. And er if you have a defensive driving technique then of course you'll be driving safely. Would you not agree with that?... So first of all then, what will we be doing? Now when we go out on the road... we would like to go through a vehicle check with you. Erm [sigh] now we didn't er it's not always possible to do that. The last year wasn't because... the way things were running and the way drivers were being brought in. But where possible we would do a t er a vehicle check. And now this time we would like to do a vehicle check with you when we before we go out.... Erm I think it it is beneficial mainly in the sense that erm if nothing more than running round the vehicle to make sure there are no marks and bangs and scratches on it which you're going to inherit from the the previous run that it had er with a different driver perhaps. [speaker001:] . Yeah but she's a. [Mike:] ? [speaker001:] . Aye. . [Mike:] I'm f frightened of ben move down in case all the wiring comes off. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Oh yeah, that's right. We were looking at that last night. So you would just take that round and just mark on anything [speaker001:] that's gotta be. [Mike:] And that's just a pre-vehicle check before you go out is it? [speaker001:] Well [Mike:] Yeah. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Right. And n normally I suppose the company have a policy in relation to checking oil, water and all the necessary bits and pieces before you go out in the morning. Is that right? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Is that done once a day or each driver? [speaker001:] Each driver. [Mike:] Each driver. So the fact that the vehicle has been out on shall we a mor a morning delivery and the the back shift man comes in and has a look at it, he would then have to do it all again. Right so we we just we would like to do that bef before we go out. Now the time which erm i is scheduled for around about half a day each. Now obviously commercial requirements might mean that that is modified to some extent. But erm I think last year we w Was it about three hours they went, last year? Do you remember? About three hours wasn't it Dougie? [speaker001:] No it was about two. Just about two. [Mike:] Two. Er [speaker001:] Two hours. [Mike:] Yeah. It d it did depend on the t run that we had. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Yeah. But erm say this yeah it'll probably follow the same format. And now when we first start off er I know what it's like. It's not very nice when you're driving the vehicle and er I know you're all experienced drivers and then you get somebody sitting there alongside you starting to look at you do, and I I you could've been driving all your life but you still feel a bit edgy and a bit tense. Is that not so? When someone's looking at you. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Yeah. So what we want to do is erm for everybody to drive naturally. You know, not put anything special on because... either myself or Stan is sitting alongside you. And er you won't drive naturally for two reasons I suppose. One is that you want to make sure that erm you do everything right. Well that is good. I mean if you're going to sort of er er dr vary your driving a little bit to put in the techniques that you think should be put over, that's good. However sometimes you can fall into the pitfall of [LAUGHTER] doing things []... erm because you think that we want to see that. And very often we don't. You'd very often be better off driving as you normally drive. Do you follow what I mean? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Mike:] Now the other reason why of course you won't perhaps erm drive naturally is because of this little bit of tension at the fact that who's this... person sitting here looking at what I'm doing? and it it's putting me off. And that does do that. So to start with what we're... doing is just having a little assessment, seeing what sort of driving erm techniques that you have. And also we can have a little chat, providing it doesn't upset any concentration, just to break the ice and settle in and er relax you and to drive normally. And er... I say, we're we're not here to... er nitpick, picking up every little fault that a driver does going along the road. Cos it doesn't matter who you are or what you are, reverse the roles, everybody makes mistakes when you're driving. So we're not looking for little every little error that a person makes. It's not like a ministry test or anything like that as some of you are are well aware. You're just looking to see if there are any aspects of a person's drive where, you know, one or two habits might have crept in which could possibly encroach upon safety margins to some extent. Or you may sort of erm people who you do the same thing over and over again, the same sort of job, would you not agree a little bit of complacency can set in and erm things don't perhaps come over quite as they should? And so we will try and reestablish and reaffirm the main basic principles to make sure that you maintain proper safety margins and er good reaction time, room to manoeuvre, as we're going through. So... that that's all it is. There's nothing t to anybody to get really uptight about. And then... we'll carry on er having had a stop and a little chat about different things, we then carry on, and if there are sort of some areas in the drive which we think might sort of erm... Come in chaps. [speaker001:] Morning. Morning. [Mike:] [cough]. [speaker001:] . . . much. Thank you very much. [Mike:] I've only just been talking about what we're going to do. Stan at the back, Mick, are the company and I think we met last year didn't we?... [speaker001:] I think so. [Mike:] Yeah. I think s Oh I can't remember. Some faces you c [speaker001:] . [Mike:] No. Anyway. [speaker001:] . I missed it. [LAUGHTER] [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] Another one escaped the net last year. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] So I was just saying that this year it would be hopefully everybody will go through it. And it will be company policy from now on that it'll be every two years. Alright? The new policy has been formulated. And I'm just going through what we're going to be doing whe on the training day itself, or the assessment day. First of all as I said, we'd like to go through a vehicle check before we go out. Then... we'll go out on the road. The first little bit of time is spent just to sort of take it easy, take our time, get to know another, and for us to assess the drive. And then we can pull in or have a stop, probably at the delivery if it's a delivery involved, we can have a little chat about any areas which we can discuss. And then a bit of a roundabout route coming back, trying to get a variety of road, and any areas of the drive which we can look at, we will, discuss amongst ourselves, practise one or two things, maybe one or two little techniques. And then... when we come in, the assessment form is written out and erm... er there's a marking sheet which I'll I'll sh sh show you before we go out on the road. There's marking sheet, and on the back comments about what we've done and er the standard which you you drive at. Now both Stan and I have the same policy that erm we will write out It takes about ten minutes, or maybe a little bit longer with me, cos I'm not as clever as Stan.... It takes a little bit longer for me, but erm we show you then what's on the sheet, so you know what is there. Alright? And then if there's any areas which you want to discuss with us then by all means... we can.... Right. Any questions about what we're gonna do on the day then? That's just a rough precis about what we're gonna do. Right what we've got t like to sort of talk about now is just one or two aspects ab about... defensive driving techniques. Why we do it and and what it's all about. Erm... I think th... as far as... lorry drivers are concerned Stan and I both go around various companies and you are dealing with... car drivers, van drivers, large goods vehicle drivers such as yourself, and er it's fair to say that erm there are different levels of ability in each case. But normally you find that erm... both Stan and I would consider the large goods vehicles drivers as being the professionals, because you are driving all the time. Would you not agree that your job is driving? Really not much else is it? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Er it is driving. Now you get the car drivers... they are not really drivers. They are given a company car to get from A to B, and their main work starts when they get there isn't it? And therefore for for various reasons their interest in driving, in most cases, not all, cos I mean some of them are very good, but in most cases their interest in driving i is... is limited to what they're gonna do in their time off.... Not an interest in perhaps, bit more depth of thought i in surviving while they're driving. Whereas people such as yourselves er have got two things in mind. You're gonna be on the road, the number of miles you do... is obviously going to put you at risk, more than somebody who does a third of your miles. Would you not agree to that?... It's not relative, because anybody who does... er more er er a great number of miles, then you would i i imagine that because they do this amount of miles that their ability would be overall better because of the experience they gain by doing to extra miles. But i we're all in a in a risk business.... And... what we say is, and what we're trying to put over, I'm su I'm sure you're fully aware of yourselves,... is that it's no good going around [sigh] driving your drives thinking that it's never going to happen to you. Do you think that's fair comment?... Now er with the vehicles on the road today more and more accidents And certainly motorways, and bearing in mind I would imagine, er would it be true to say that the majority of mo... driving is done on motorways and dual carriageways?... When you get [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Mm. So when you get accidents on motorways they're normally pretty horrendous aren't they? It's not just one vehicle involved. And I we just feel that cannot go along thinking it's never gonna happen to you. You we should do something about it. And as a company, whatever other political [LAUGHTER] ideals you have about them [], but as a company they are very safety conscious.... And erm they are doing whatever they can do just to keep people aware of the need to maintain safety margins. And unless you do something positive yourself... to maintain safety margins you're not gonna turn around and say it's not gonna happen to you. The chances are you're more likely to be involved in something. And so the idea of these days is just to reaffirm these erm basic principles of safety. But having done it, having completed... the half a day or whatever it is we have, you know it's not really a case of saying Right well that's it. It's something which really should be thought about continuously er and carried on. Which is why of course they've decided on th the grading system that they have, that they want people to achieve perhaps a class one status wherever possible and maintain it. And it will not be maintained really unless that sort of effort is put in throughout the year.... So th as far as si Oh excuse me. As far as the risks are concerned then... we feel that by adopting a technique, defensive driving technique, that the risks will be... calculated more in your favour. Do you not agree with that? So let's drive on the road taking a calculated risk, as opposed to sort of just driving along hoping it's never gonna happen to you and I.... Now I'd just like to sort of This is a... This is not very clear on here but I would just like to bring out... This is an accident which happened down in Kent about two years ago now. And this is er a dual carriageway. It's not motorway. That's the central reservation. But there are no crash barriers down the centre, it's it's straight over.... And er this is the way to Dover and the docks, this is the way to London.... Nighttime... weather conditions good visibility, fine, clear, no real problems. But it was dark. And these this is er a private car going along the road about fifty miles an hour going down towards Dover. Now this is er a lorry,... end it's er I think it's a Frenchman. So it's a left hooker, the driver's sitting over there. Now this is a a British lorry coming down in the offside lane, cos it's only two lanes. And erm... this one is slowly closing on that one, this one is catching up on this one at quite a rate of knots. And you can tell what's gonna [LAUGHTER] happen can't you []? As this one comes up to this one here, this one then pulls out to overtake this vehicle.... And er to avoid a collision and in fact I think they did strike but I'm not really sure, but to avoid a collision this one then goes over the other side of the road, picks up this Ford Orion coming the over way, rolls it over the bank, and it goes underneath the tractive unit of the artic. And consequently this poor guy is... killed.... Now I I'd just like your your opinions as to what you think that erm... you you would How would you think about that as a accident? Was it a Who was to blame, would you think? If we're gonna call it a blameworthy accident. So first of all we'll have a look at a a blameworthy aspect of it, then we'll have a look if whether or not it was avoidable. Can I ask you who you would think would be to blame for that accident?... [speaker001:] Er overtaking one could have maybe slowed down. [Mike:] Yeah. Would you agree with that? [speaker001:] Yeah. Yes. . [Mike:] Mm. I think that... as professional drivers we would all w look at that and s and see that Er I mean been out with... very many lorry drivers and er that is the way that I've sort of been with the majority of the guys that I've been in. Every now and again you're with somebody who's putting their foot down and either not anticipating enough or not thinking in enough depth, or they might have an attitude whereby sod it, I'm just going anyway.... But absolutely right, I mean there the guy should be able to see that this person is closing up on there.... And the thing to also as he gets closer, as it's a foreign vehicle he should be able to [speaker001:] . [Mike:] ... clock the? [speaker001:] The left-hand drive. [Mike:] Yeah. Clock that it's a left-hand drive, and therefore perhaps give a little bit more consideration to that driver... and anticipate the fact that he might come out. Now... when the accident was all complete and over and the the tachograph of this vehicle was examined, the speed was I think it was eighty two or eighty three miles an hour Stan wasn't it? [Stan:] Yeah that's right. [Mike:] Now [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] That's plenty fast enough for a for a thirty-eight-tonne articulated vehicle isn't it? Fully laden. Plenty fast enough. He's got a bit of a roll on going down the hill would you not agree?... Now again, [sigh] that is too fast for an H G V. It's too fast for anybody in some circumstances. But let's face it gents, speed in itself on a completely open road with nobody around is not in itself dangerous, that's down to the individual.... I might suggest that perhaps eighty three miles an hour [LAUGHTER] is a bit over [] the top anyway.... But when you've got other moving vehicles around and things which could happen, eighty three miles an hour is far too bloody fast isn't it? Far too fast. So certainly er your point is absolutely right. What so what be p doing then, would be looking, assessing and anticipating that this might happen, and then easing off and an and holding back to see whether A, is he going to come out? or B, is he going to steady? You're satisfied he's staying where he is, before you move through.... What about erm any would you say an er blame attached to anybody else?... [speaker001:] Well er partially in that the lorry that pulled out [Mike:] Yeah. [speaker001:] mainly for the boy at the back. [Mike:] Because of his speed and er Th certainly this one here, I mean the Highway Code says that you must make sure that it's safe before you commence an overtaking manoeuvre. And he hasn't done that has he? Erm... he's Alright you can excuse the fact that he might be a left-hand... drive vehicle. This bloke here has only just come about fifteen miles up the road. He's from his depot. He hasn't come far. No telling us where I don't know this one come but being a foreign driver I mean he he could have from anywhere in the country and he could have been on the road a long time. And the fact that he's a left-hand... drive he's erm perhaps not got quite the view out of his... offside mirror, or our offside mirror it would be to us, that perhaps somebody like yourselves have with er a right-hand drive vehicle. So he certainly [sigh] didn't pay due care to the pace and the speed and make sure that he'd got a safe gap before pulling out. So certainly.... I think the end result was that erm I say this man was dead so Married man with four children just coming home from work, minding his own business. He got two years for dreath death by reckless driving. This one was done for driving without due care and attention and he got the maximum fine. It was fifteen hundred quid or something like that. But that was the result. Now we've got it erm... Are we switched on here Stan? [Stan:] Yeah.... [Mike:] Gonna do it for me? Th this is just a a video of the erm... accident itself. It only shows you the the aftermath of it,... but i it's erm just highlights the point. And when we're talking about defensive techniques, anticipation obviously is one of the things which is the hallmark of... the top drivers isn't it? Your degree of anticipation is It's one of the most important things which is going to keep us safe.... One of the top skills a driver's got have on a road if he's gonna maintain safety. [static] [shouting] This guy when he the policeman spoke to him afterwards, his words to the policeman Now let's bear in mind he might have been in shock. [] His words to the policeman were I like driving fast don't I? [static] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . I know but I mustn't say that on here. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] [static] [shouting] This is not for er any sort of [] This i I'm doing this talk here for erm Stanley's daughter who's at er college, and she likes to hear the sound of my voice when I'm sober. So [LAUGHTER].... [static] If I do say the odd naughty word just scowl at me. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] .... [Mike:] So you can see that er... that's the Orion underneath there. They're just zooming into it there. It's absolutely smashed to pulp. It took three hours to get what was left of the body out.... [speaker001:] That's a job in itself then. [Mike:] N [speaker001:] Yeah. Mm. [Stan:] If you think of the trauma on the people who have to deal with that. [speaker001:] aye. [Stan:] Now you never forget those sort of things. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Stan:] Cos both Mick [speaker001:] Aye. [Stan:] and I were... used to do that sort of work, and er you can remember every incident.... Particularly those that very harrowing. You never really forget them.... [Mike:] I know those... pictures there are just showing you the result of something but you know when we discuss... erm er a p er a situation it's not a theoretical situation, it's something which happened, something that does happen. And erm... you know as lorry drivers, we we... class ourselves as the professionals of the road,... but at the end of the day our... standards or our reputation is tarnished by the actions of a few isn't it? And I'm sure that when we go down the road we can Although i we're always ready to look at erm car drivers and some of the stupid things they do and some of the stupid things that they do which annoy us, at the end of the day w you've still got to bear in mind that erm there are people in our own fraternity, as it were, that er don't do as they should.... [speaker001:] . [Mike:] But let's see just see the number plate on it underneath there the [speaker001:] . [Mike:] ... cab's rolled right over the top. [Stan:] Sometimes these blokes they have just to commit one particular error, resulting in a action like that. [speaker001:] . [Stan:] And erm [speaker001:] Just that one wee mistake. [Stan:] That's all it needs. [speaker001:] That's right. [Stan:] Having said that, the tachograph of that particular vehicle illustrated that as far as the speed was concerned it wasn't one isolated incident. In other words he was consistently at that i part on that particular day, [speaker001:] . [Stan:] without backtracking on previous ones, on that particular day he was... pushing it. [speaker001:] . [Stan:] For whatever reason. And the reason doesn't matter as Mick has said because we're talking about the situation and the man's... attitude of mind at that particular time. All that's all that it needs you know, for him to alter... his attitude. [Mike:] Right.... [cough] So when we're talking about defensive driving and we're talking about safety, which is the main object of all this, [static] [shouting] to keep yourself safe [] one of the most important things is the attitude of the individual, would you not agree? And it's the attitude I think that very often causes everything from a major accident like that where someone loses their life, and very often... to the small little... scrape on a lorry which occurs in a in a in a yard. The attitude of the driver. Bit too fast, bit too blase, whatever the case may be. Having said that, [LAUGHTER] I've been on some of the deliveries that you guys have to do, and some of the places where you have to go into, and er I fully appreciate it's not easy. And the fact that I say that a lot of these accidents happen because perhaps you're not paying the attention, very often I've been or know of situations where the bloke is... really paying attention to what he's doing and the still the unfortunate occurs. So I'm I don't want to sit here holier than thou, start preaching that erm... you know things are not going to happen, because we're all human and we all make errors. But erm we could cut down an awful lot of these accidents and erm it doesn't matter at the end of the day... what level it is. Cos the end result Th the potential is always there. Do you follow what I mean? The end result might only be a slight scratch, but the potential might have been in that situation for something a lot worse. So it's it's always there. And attitude is the thing which erm... we look at quite closely, and I think you must consider your attitude. For instance, a person who naturally er y has a got a bit of a short fuse. [LAUGHTER] Now that very often, you get that sort of individual, their attitude could at some or other be detrimental to their standard of driving. Would you not agree with that? So she other thing is you get p some people who are naturally aggressive.... Car drivers for instance, you you get car you the Your neighbour is probably the nicest bloke you've ever met in your life. Soon as he gets behind the wheel of a car he's an absolute dickhead.... [speaker001:] Taxi drivers. [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] [LAUGHTER]. You probably know a few. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] What are you looking at me for? . [Mike:] [LAUGHTER]. We must have touched a little spot there I think Stan. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] So th this a aggressive attitude. Now the other way of course which your attitude can er be affected is that you're probably yourself quite a relaxed... steady sort of guy, but do you respond, do you react to... the antics of another road user? In other words, someone throws down the gauntlet, do you pick it up? You know we've all see th t One we've discussed a couple of times.... Down the motorway, say just two lanes, or whatever, roadworks ahead, all moving down, the offside lane closes in eight hundred yards, six hundred yards, and you're going along in your lorry and the cars going [car noise]. Two hundred yards, [car noise], [LAUGHTER] still going by []. Three inches. They're still gonna try and get by if they can. Now very often I c you can understand it can't you that these people And you're in the queue. You you're sort of just stopping and starting, stopping and starting as the others are going down. And you could quite rightly think, Why don't they take their turn? Now you could react in two ways. There's the one coming down, right at the last minute, wants to get in at th the very last minute. You've got two options.... The o [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] What was that Dougie? [LAUGHTER] Oh sorry, I mustn't mention the name. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] That's right. You can, as I said just now, pick up the gauntlet and say squeeze him out and force him through the cones and whatever thing might result of that, you just don't know, or you can say, Well alright, ease off,... go on, you have the space, I don't really need it, I'm not in a hurry. Now the the correct attitude we all know is the one where you ease off. And I suggest to you gents, that's the only way you can drive without getting involved in something. Cos the minute you react to what that person's doing, your involved and y and you're as bad as he is.... So... The other thing you've got to think about, if you do react... the wrong way, and we've probably all been tempted to at times if we haven't done it, but if you do react the wrong way,... consider who is that person coming by?... You think it... could possibly be, and it may well be, some rep, in his car, rushing from here to there, don't give a toss about anybody else, as long as he gets where he wants to go. And that is in your mind when you react... the other way. Would you not agree?... Have you ever considered to stop to think, well it it might be... your son, your daughter, who's just passed their test,... and that's doing this in er and just doesn't know any better. I mean because motorways can be quite frightening to people who've just passed their test. And they get themselves in situations don't they, inexperienced drivers? Which they wish... to God they'd never got into.... So it might be with a bit of help from you,... y you could teach them a valuable lesson.... I it may not be the case, but I think it's possibility you've got to consider, isn't it? That by easing off, holding back, you could teach them a valuable lesson and they they'd sit there And you've seen them sometimes, when they come alongside you and they're forced and th they don't what to and they look up and go... [frightened noise]. There's fear, they're pale. And er so I think there's a thing you could think of there is that, who is this person doing this? It might not be the dickhead you think it is.... It might be a lady driver with a couple of children in the car, again doing her incompetent best. So I'd just ask yourself the question before you react untoward towards a situation like this. [speaker001:] worth the hassle. [Mike:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Is it worth the hassle? [Mike:] Well that alone. That alone. Because at the end of the day, if something does happen... you've got all this filling in to do and you might well turn around and say It wasn't my fault, you could turn around and say it was their fault for coming by. But was this situation avoidable?... [speaker001:] . It's worse when and you go. [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] I'd just like to sort of show you... And th this is a... [speaker001:] . [Mike:] You've probably seen this have you? Yes. It's an accident on the M Six, and er now if you look there in a moment you'll see a car come out of control up through there. [speaker001:] Is that rain? [Mike:] That's rain, yeah. Look, see he's just... he... pry trying to brake. Look at the van on [speaker001:] Oh. [Mike:] the central reservation. Everyone's trying to brake and get out of the way. Now that starts it. Look at the white van on the right. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Now obviously he's got nowhere to go. Now watch the white van in the middle. He can't stop.... Now look at the fast lane at them all pi piling in the back. [speaker001:] Oh dear! Oh dear. Oh! [breath] [Mike:] That one [LAUGHTER] goes right across []. [speaker001:] . Ooh he just managed to make it. That's for all the people a couple of miles up the road. [Mike:] Now look at Right at the very back, [speaker001:] at the back. [Mike:] Er right at the top there you'll see an artic... jackknife right into the back. See him going across there? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Right across the carriageway. Well that's effectively brocked that hasn't it. [LAUGHTER] Mm. Doesn't take long does it? [speaker001:] No. [Mike:] Attitude play a bit of a part in that? [speaker001:] . Hadn't noticed that. . [Mike:] It could have been. The film is [speaker001:] . [Mike:] probably a couple or three years old now, and it was [speaker001:] Right. [Mike:] taken by [speaker001:] . Sixth of August ninety. Wish you could do that here. That'd be fine. Aha. Turn it all back. [Mike:] [LAUGHTER] Start again. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] The first guy who slipped there, probably these people that s maybe... one or two in his. What one? What one? And then this [Mike:] Yeah. [speaker001:] .... [Mike:] As well as [speaker001:] . [Mike:] looking at those that were involved in the accident look how close... look how close [speaker001:] . [Mike:] they are there. [speaker001:] Aye. [Mike:] But look at some of the others. You'll s [speaker001:] . That guy I mean he was winging it. He he was... [Mike:] He just couldn't stop so he swerved out you see and lost control [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Mm. He was so close. [speaker001:] Aye. [Stan:] And er he he realized too late. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] H I was gonna say, look at that lorry up there, which is probably this one.... Now er some of them can stop you see. [speaker001:] Mm. Yeah. [Mike:] Some can stop. Coming down through there, at the top there, I think we've probably missed them now. Th there er look. Now he's [speaker001:] . [Mike:] coming down quite steady.... There are some of [speaker001:] . [Mike:] those are driving quite sensibly and can stop. [speaker001:] he shunted up behind.... [Mike:] What we're trying to say gents is that a situation like this, the best driver in the world really y you you could get involved in something. But you can take... efforts, you can make the effort yourself to keep yourself safe. Separation distance.... is the mo Especially in that sort of weather. You've gotta keep well back. You've gotta give yourself that time... to react and that room to manoeuvre. And if you've got somebody right up your bum... keep further space so that you can lead them into a situation safely, as opposed to sort of having a anchor on yourself. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Now i... it's the sort of thing that you... y you read about, you pick up the the paper, you put n news on, and Nasty accident on the M Eight or... M Six, whatever the case may be, and a lot of vehicles are involved. So the lesson to be learnt from that is that erm... it's not always possible to keep yourself out of trouble, but you can do what you have to do... to keep yourself safe by maintaining a proper separation distance. And bearing in mind when you get that sort of weather, the separation distance has to... be double. Do you know what th we mean by the two-second rule? [speaker001:] No.... If you pass a... too fast. [Mike:] That's right. And for lorries they say four seconds. Which should be in some cases be doubled in very bad weather like that. Now obviously the you could see the cars in that fast lane there, they were just nose to tail, nose to tail. And you can see them like that every day you drive down a motorway. But stop and think gents. have you ever seen lorry drivers like that? [speaker001:] Mhm. Mm. Mhm. [Mike:] Now [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] A lot of people would turn round and say Right I'm a lorry driver and I I leave a nice gap. What happens to the gap? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Somebody will pull int between it. But then... you might feel that you're going backwards but you still just modify your position to keep that gap there. And just ask yourselves the question... when another lorry's coming by you, what do you do when he's just clear?... [speaker001:] Flash. [Mike:] Flash him to let him come in? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] And when he comes in what have you done to your safety distance? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] So again, it's a thing which you might consider when you're er letting vehicles come in front and er... I... the rights and wrongs of erm flashing lights, er really the only flashing lights should take the place of a horn. That is the Highway Code's erm... system for flashing signals. Y drivers, we know they have their own code,... and er what we say is, although we perhaps don't agree with it ourselves, you do it. All we say is that just be a little... bit more considerate about when you do do it. Don't go along the road trying to keep yourself a nice separation distance and as soon as the tail end of another lorry has passed you flash him in and then you're like this.... Consider delaying the flash till he's gone by a bit further or whatever the case may be. And there's no doubt about it the flashing of the lights is is a beneficial thing. Especially I mean... you're in the nearside And you've got limiters fitted now have you all of you? [speaker001:] . [Mike:] You're in the nearside lane and you're going uphill and er you're trunking away quite nicely, you see a guy coming down in the fast lane, down the hill getting a bit of a roll on, fully laden, and he gets halfway up the hill, he runs out of steam and he's looking for a hole to get into.... So as a l fellow lorry driver you would probably think Well I'll... ease off, and when you think you've got a gap there... you give him a flash, Okay mate, you can come in now. Now he he's quite erm... receptive of that isn't he? He's quite [LAUGHTER] pleased to think that [] someone's given him a hole to get into. So that's nothing wrong, I mean that's fine. But just consider... as I say, when you flash people, that you've got to maintain the separation distance. Now th there's two things we want the separation distance for, and one of them, as you say, is time to... react [speaker001:] React. [Mike:] and to stop. What's the other... reason we want er a nice separation distance between ourselves and the vehicle in front for? Probably even more important to some extent. [speaker001:] So as you can see. [Mike:] So that you can see.... Obviously when you're driving along the road the observation y wants to be up the road as far as it possibly can be. And er therefore... if you can see mile, half a mile,... quarter of a mile up the road, you can see other vehicles slowing down, brake lights coming on. You don't need the brake lights of the guy in front of you to tell that he's gonna stop, you've anticipated that in a minute this guy's gonna stop so you you're already... er braking and slowing down. Now if you just pull in a little bit too close, it's a natural reaction of the body to direct the eyes at the vehicle which is going to cause you the danger.... And even though you may physically be able to see up the road your eyes won't be looking there. And then So now you're travelling a little bit too close, your eyes are glued on the back of the vehicle in front, what's the sort of feeling you... get? A little bit tensed up?... And i you're a bit on edge? And yet people you see them, lorry drivers and car drivers, but lorry drivers themselves, they're happy to go along the road at fifty sixty miles an hour with such a short distance between themselves and the vehicle in front. And the thing is... when these sort of trailers and boxes like you've got on there, you just can't see.... And people are quite happy to do that, and there's te the the the stress and the the tension must build up inside. And er as probably er you gathered Stan and I are both ex-policemen in relation to erm... to... er our our background and er I think I said yesterday to the er some of the guys as well, one of the things that lorry drivers and policemen do have very much in common is that we have... pr probably one the shortest erm pension lives of [LAUGHTER] most professions. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] And it's because of the tensions, the adrelion, and [thumping chest] the old bloody heart keep going. And as it t as er as you get on in later life, you know it tells on you. So let's sort of think about attitude, keep back, keep ourselves safe.... You're a lot less stressful,... you get to the end of your journey... a lot fresher. You can take a journey of three hundred miles if you like. One guy's a bit of a teararse. Pushing on, pushing on. The other guy takes his time. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] The difference in the overall running time will be negligible.... All the guy who's pushing on has done is got from one holdup to the next holdup quicker than the next feller. I think that's fair to say that, do you not? One guy's got there thinking [mimicking] Cor! Let's go and have a fag I []... need something I've worn out, had a hard day's work. The other guy will rea really get out of his cab and think Well well we've got here now, go and have a cup of tea.... All goes over his head. Do you think there's any value in that? Just like to show you a couple of videos now. We're talking about attitude. Now th the first one is erm... What is the first one Stan? [Stan:] .... [Mike:] This is er... [Stan:] . [Mike:] a personal carrier. Oh no. The first one is a bloke wants to overtake. Lorry in front, car in front of him, and he's number three. And he's so desperate to overtake. And the position he goes at. You could be a lorry coming the other way.... Again it's attitude. You see the lorry up the front? You see the one just pulling out? Now that was... Now look at the vehicles coming the other way and there's a car in front of the opposing lorry. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] What a plonker. [Mike:] Now he went completely blind didn't he? [speaker001:] That lorry braked as well.... The one coming the other way. [Mike:] Yeah. [speaker001:] . I think he's passing two. I think he's passing them both on the same time. [Mike:] Mm. [speaker001:] . Three of them. . [Mike:] Look at this. Now this is a van,... load it's a it's a personnel carrier. A load of schoolchildren going on a day out. Now he starts to overtake, and you'll see there's a sou sign on the left, a roundabout sign they're approaching. He's go no hole to get into... and pr looks there the person not letting him in. So he stays out... to the centre. So again he's approaching the roundabout and he wants to go straight on, so he's completely in the wrong position. And what does he gain? Why didn't he just stay where he was behind the vehi Everyone else was taking their time. Now watch as he goes round the roundabout.... [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Now he's on his way now, yes let's get through here, we can't hang about here, let's get through and away. [speaker001:] .... [Mike:] Now as he comes out of the roundabout he starts overtaking down the offside of those vehicles. Which throws him He's got no view there has he? No view whatsoever. And as you'll see in a moment he's completely on the wrong side of the road. Now what if something had been coming the other way? Another lorry?... Agai overtook completely blind. Attitude? It's gotta be hasn't it really? [speaker001:] Mm. [Mike:] Just an aggressive pushing attitude. Now you'll see the speed in the bottom left-hand corner. Now this guy is er out for a little afternoon run on his motorbike. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. . [Mike:] Now the thing is, you'll see in a moment there'some lorries. You'll see some lorries up the top, one of the being an N F T lorry. I think you might find one of the lorries is overtaking the other one.... And er he's being followed by an unmarked police car. And you can see What have got up to? Oh we're just just getting into four gear now I think. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Now there're the lorries, and the see the N F T just up there going round the bend. [speaker001:] must be going. . [Mike:] No that's a policeman. His hands er s he's a bit worried. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. . [Mike:] Now he he's gotta find somewhere to go so where's the only p place that's clear? The hard shoulder. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] Now as he comes in front of that lorry back onto the carriageway, if the one that was over taking suddenly decides to pull back in his mate having flashed him, the value of a nearside mirror? Mind you, you'd have to be quick wouldn't you? Cos he'd be [speed sound]. Look and he's gone, up through there. [speaker001:] .... [Mike:] Now er [Stan:] See all the flashing lights of the vehicles there, they're they're so incensed they're flashing their lights all over the shop at him... er as he goes [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] through. But he actually went through between... those two goods vehicles. Came up and shot in and then went round. [speaker001:] . And, additionally, there's an intersection there. You know an exit. Mm. [Mike:] Now you s there's a situation where that was attitude absolutely stupid. The num amount of vehicles which were around. Now this one is speed in itself. Not the erm complication of of vehicles to the extent we saw with the motorcycle film just now, but this is erm again The the police car is staying well back cos he's following this vehicle you can see a hundred and... thirteen, well the speed's gets up to about a hundred and forty in a moment as you'll see. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] It's a s a straightforward er an M R Two. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] This is a S er Opal Senator or a Vauxhall Carlton with a Senator engine. And he's following er a Toyota M R Two. And er th th this guy [speaker001:] . [Mike:] has got his nine-year-old son in the car and he's showing his son how fast his new car's gonna go.... Still not making a lot of impression on [LAUGHTER] this guy []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... Where is it? [Mike:] H h he's just he's right in the distance. In fact the camera can't quite pick him out. As I say the [speaker001:] Now what was he going at that speed for? [Mike:] Just to show his son how fast his new car's gonna go. [speaker001:] Er but how long was he doing it for? [Mike:] Well look er Th this was more or [speaker001:] . [Mike:] less shows you the whole of the chase. [Stan:] But th that's actually they followed him for about ten miles.... [speaker001:] So he's done that for five minutes there.... [Mike:] So anyway we... I've got it here somewhere.... So er just a just a few instances o of of actual film of things which happen on the road which depict... attitude.... Any comments on what we've got there? Now they're sort of things that you've probably seen yourself... quite frequently I would think. So the other The main thing we're thinking about then, with the defensive driving technique, one of the most important things is attitude. So naturally we'll be looking [LAUGHTER] to see the attitude of a guy when we're sitting there []. [Stan:] .... [Mike:] That's it, thanks. What was that one? [Stan:] [cough] That's the erm... car in the [Mike:] A and the [Stan:] double white lines system, We'll show you this one in a minute, and coming the other way you will see there's an overtake. And th I'm sure every one of you have been in that situation where somebody's suddenly popped out and committed themself to an overtake and they've got nowhere to go at all. And that's a prime example of it. And you see the accident with the car driver when the brakes come on. But watch... where the brakes come on. In other words, if the bloke hadn't have got back there would've been a f a total impact. Cos he wou his reaction time, understandably, cos he wasn't expecting it,ce [clapping] happened like that and hi his reaction time was too slow to compensate for the stupidity of the bloke coming the other way. But you'll you'll all recognize the situation. [speaker001:] . [Mike:] ... [cough] After this one it runs into one with a car er car transporter. The attitude of a lorry driver which you can have a look at. [Stan:] Here he comes look. Watch the bloke coming up there. Now here he is, look, see? Now see how the brake lights? [speaker001:] Ooh. [Stan:] Now [speaker001:] phew! [Stan:] the brake lights are that there. far too late, cos he he didn't couldn't And I'm not criticizing [Mike:] See the... van dri [LAUGHTER] [Stan:] the fact just a a question of... the bloke didn't have time. You know, didn't have the time [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] to react. [Mike:] Completely overtaking against th o over the double white line... in all that traffic. There er here's a situation with this er er rather aggressive attitude of a car transporter driver. Now he's overtaking because he can't see but nevertheless Look at the gap there. The slightest movement with those [speaker001:] . [Mike:] three lorries and there's a real shitcart isn't there? What's the safety margins there? [Stan:] Think of the turbulence between those vehicles there, you know the air displacement as they pass. [Mike:] It's thirty seven miles an hour. Not fast, but it's fast enough for that sort of... distance between each oth [speaker001:] I bet shitting themselves. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] []. [Stan:] He found out what colour adrenalin was when he got home. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Mike:] Now you'll see him in a moment, he this guy driving he wants to go off... on a slip road. And it's one of those slip roads where you off and other people join... at the same place. But he's not g [speaker001:] Cumbernauld.... [Mike:] He's not intere Er yeah, Cumbernauld's a typical example of this. [speaker001:] Aye. [Mike:] But he's not g no give and take with this guy, he's just taking advantage of his size. Er and he's going You watch in moment the way he S see there's the one trying to come out, look. Look. And he got straight in front there.... There now watch and see the how he misses the central reservation, those bollards. Now if that car had pushed on and didn't brake when he did, that driver would either have taken car out or the keep left bollards wouldn't he? His speed was such he didn't approach it at a speed where he could erm... er l lay off and er let something happen.... So they're just examples of attitude gents, which And it's attitude which causes the problems. If you have a more considerate attitude... one where you're going to sort of give way to people, show a little bit more consideration to other road users, I think you'd find that it's gonna... it pays off.... [shuffling in background] Right very briefly, we've been here a little while now, is erm we're just gonna a little talk about the other aspects of what we call a defensive driving... technique. Have we got something on there Stan? [Stan:] No that's the fog one. [Mike:] The erm? [Stan:] Fog. [Mike:] Yeah thanks. We'll show that in a minute. [Stan:] Yeah. [Mike:] So what a el else are we gonna to be looking for? When we're talking about defensive driving, attitude plays a big part. The other thing we're looking at of course is your technique as a driver. Now the technique that you employ driving your vehicle is divided into two parts. How you control the vehicle... and how you read the road ahead. Now controlwise, we can look at various things, and I think last year we had various discussions on different things, but, naturally, you're looking for smooth, positive control of the vehicle. A nice balance between clutch and throttle. Now I know that now you've got or two erm splitter boxes, yes? And clutches not necessarily all the time? But nevertheless, a nice balance can be obtained by giving that... split time to get in. If you rush it too much you can very often find you're in a false neutral can't you or whatever the case may be? Then you've got to start again to try and get it. Invariably it's done through bad timing or trying to rush it. Not always. It does a little bit of technique to get used to these things, I ag I agree. But So we're looking for a nice balance between clutch and throttle, that you're not being jerked and the not clutch is not bloody flying every time that you take let your foot to engage a gear.... Nice balance of steering. The steering should always be smooth, progressive, and accurate. It's gonna get your vehicle where it wants to go. Now steering on its own can very often be complicated by other aspects such as your correct speed for the situation. Co that can affect your steering can't it? If you're sort of travelling a bit too fast, you've gotta rush your steering, things might not be right. But your er basic style of steering, and naturally we come from a training establishment, we think and we practise the push-pull method. We think that is... the best method. Because it's the most accurate, it's the smoothest and you're always in a position to respond should you want more or less steering. If you go over the top, underneath or palm, you are not.... Er plus the fact your hands could slip off the wheel or or whatever. So we er advocate this. But we we s we know that people have their own styles. You might have been driving for years by going over the top of the wheel as a lot of lorry drivers do. So although we think that our method is best, we fully realize that you've got styles, things th which you've built up over many years. And providing your steering is smooth,... positive and accurate,... then we accept it. It's no real problem. So we realize we're not gonna be here to change the habits that have built up over a lifetime. You can't change habits like that... b in two or three hours. But if there was an aspect of your steering like erm [tape change]

[speaker001:] . [Stan:] Good afternoon. [speaker001:] The purpose of this afternoon's session is basically we're we're sort of looking at it from two pronged attacked. It's from the point of view of the risk management for the council's insurance, because our new policy we are virtually self-insuring. We have a ten thousand pound excess, so we're... we're looking at er trying to minimize those risks. But also more importantly we're looking at it from er an employee health and safety point of view because we feel... it's just as important to have our employees aware that their [speaker moves away from microphone] [Stan:] Yes. Can you just put it on there for me? Thanks very much. [speaker001:] the environment in the workplace or AIDS awareness or any of those kind of health and safety issues. It's a very very informal session and will welcome any comments that [Stan:] Thanks. [speaker001:] you have erm and he will also impart as much of his knowledge as he can in the two hours to you. So... please listen and enjoy. And I shall even join in on this one. [LAUGHTER] Thank you very much. [Stan:] Thank you for that er introduction Catherine. About the what's that, the about the umpteenth time. Er as you say now you're going to [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] going to ha have a listen to what it's all about. So hopefully [speaker001:] Yes. [Stan:] ... er She she keeps saying it's terribly interesting, I hope she doesn't deny that at the end of the two hours. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Good afternoon. Erm what I'd like to er start off with is to emphasize why you're here and erm... the fact that I'm not going to patronize you as a driver. You're all competent sensible drivers I'm sure, and erm no doubt that you feel quite happy with the manner in which you perform your functions on the road. But what I'd like you to do is to go with me during the next couple of hours, have an open mind and erm if I say something which is in an in any way provocative, question me if you want to, cos that's what we're here for, to communicate. Anything you want to argue with er and discuss, please do. Not just the content of erm the two hours but anything else which you feel is pertinent to you as a group or indeed you as an individual. If you want an answer, please ask. [break in recording] I shall be able to give to you. If I if I don't know the answer I'll find out in the interim period and let you know at the end of the session. But hopefully I shall know the answer. The erm the main constituents of the afternoon revolve around... [sighing] the [] awareness of erm you on the road and what you individually can do about other road users. How do you individually view other road users? [speaker001:] Idiots. [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Who Yes Lyndsey? Idiots? [speaker001:] Yeah. I often think [Stan:] Great. Yes. [speaker001:] they'll always do the un unpredictable. [Stan:] In fact some of the them are screaming idiots aren't they? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Stan:] You know they're they're not just basic idiots but they really do something erm which can be quite fraught, and er there's no doubt everyone of you have been in a situation created by... [sigh] another road user. Not of course created by any one of you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] No? Or w w shall we say that may be said with a bit of a tongue in cheek? Do you think that you are you can be sort of erm... put behind the eight ball? You know you you m you might be able be a little bit blameworthy in some instances? Yes? [speaker001:] Mm. Yes. [Stan:] Yeah, I think that's true isn't it? And I think what we've got to think about is what our general attitude is to ourselves and to our other road users that are around us. How do you er how do you therefore generate the knowledge before you start getting the attitude? Because the attitude always comes in when you start getting more experienced don't you? I mean you d you don't really have an attitude problem when you first start to drive do you? Other than apprehension and fear. But erm generally you start getting the attitude problem when you think, Oh I don't need all this old rubbish the instructor taught me do I? Cos I'm now a competent driver cos I've passed my test. Haven't we? Or do we? When did you last look at... a book... about driving?... Come on. Come on when did you last look at a book about driving? Anybody read one recently? [speaker001:] No. Only on France. [Stan:] [LAUGHTER]. When did you last look at the Highway Code?... [speaker001:] About five years ago. [Stan:] You only passed your test five years ago, ten years ago. Erm now driving is probably the most dangerous thing you do, unless you bunjy jump or abseil or do other daft Well they're maybe not daft things to people who do them, but certainly they're potentially dangerous. But erm if you do those sort of things somebody teaches you. And if you're a er golfer er you might go to the professional and say you know I'm miss I'm hooking, you know, can you show me how I... can't do this? Or if you're a bridge player you might go and ask advice or read books but what do you do about your driving? Not a lot. When did you last read the Highway Code? A long time ago. Do you remember that one?... [speaker001:] Yes. Mm. [Stan:] Do you? You do? Six P that cost. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Erm... that's a long time that one came out. That one... seventy five P, fifty P, sixty P, and er last but not least... that one. Have you seen that one? [speaker001:] Mm. Mm. . [Stan:] No says Sue. Good God! have a look at it? [speaker001:] are pretty ancient. [Stan:] No I'm not. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Thank you. [] [LAUGHTER] [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] Ninety nine pence.... It's getting it's getting it up a bit isn't it? Yeah. [speaker001:] Right. Right [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [Stan:] Bit tight. Bit tight. So... it's er... just out this one, or it came out the end of er last year, December, January time. And er it's a good ninety nine P's worth. Now as I say to every... one of you er on these courses, do when you go through W H Smith pick one up and have a look at it. Now you won't be able to read it whilst you're in there and save ninety nine P, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] but it's not really too much to ask is it? To a quid. Eh? You can even put the penny in the poor box at the same time. But it's it's really a good quid's worth of l of er knowledge. And I don't think you really know it do you? Do you?... [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Some Pardon? [speaker001:] Yeah a fair bit of it. [Stan:] Oh right, [speaker001:] Aha. [Stan:] right, yeah. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Some of it. [LAUGHTER] He'll pick on you now. [] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] A volunteer's better than any [LAUGHTER] than a pressed man isn't it []? [speaker001:] stopping distances. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [Stan:] Well. I'll t [speaker001:] stopping distances. [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] I [speaker001:] your windscreen. [Stan:] I'll tell you what we're going to do then. Er only a bit of fun this really, it's not a It it can be a serious exercise but it's not meant to put you under any pressure. But I'm going to give you a little piece of paper and on the piece of paper it's got ten questions. And all I want you to do is ring the answers. Li like a Ballard Test where you just put the little ring round the A B or C or D. And er then at the end of it we'll talk it through. Now it's not really for my information. It doesn't really worry me whether you you know it or not. I'll be very impressed if one of you gets a hundred percent. But I want you to realize whether you know it or not. So when you go [slight break in recording] that door you'll have a little bit more knowledge than when you came in that door. And it's not only revolving around this of course, it's about the other things that we're going to stimulate your interest with as we go through the afternoon. So... would you all volunteer to er have a go at that with me then? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] And er all I want you to do is just ring the answers. Only takes about five minutes. We'll quickly go through erm those, again that'll take another five minutes or so, and er I'll be surprised if you don't find it... quite interesting.... Okay.... Have you all got a pen? [speaker001:] No. [Stan:] Cor! [speaker001:] He told you to bring a pen John. [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] [tut] [speaker001:] . [Stan:] I'll find you one. [speaker001:] Thank you. Mm. . [Stan:] Oh okay. Two there. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [noise background] [Stan:] You want one as well? [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Sorry. Beg your pardon. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [noise background] [Stan:] There you are Lyndsey. [speaker001:] Thank you.... [Stan:] Okay. About five minutes then. [break in recording] Okay. [cough]. Well I think we're all more or less there by now. Erm what I'll ask Sophie to do if she's still going on with it, she'll be a little bit late, just put a couple of plugs in your ears while I give the answer out. Cos you've got a very honest face. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. Thank you. [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] So j just [] you just carry on with it. As I say the main idea is that when we get the answers to these er you you know regardless of what you're actually telling me you know whether you them right or not. You can mark your own papers. So er you can cheat if you like, it won't make any difference.... You'll notice that they're geared to certain things on the on the question paper,th the the constituents really of what we're going to talk about this afternoon, which will revolve mainly around... thinking about things that you're doing, I E good observation and concentration, those two going hand in hand, always organizing yourself in relation to a good separation distance, so you can equate what safety means to you. Time equals safety. You can think about a disciplined approach to problems, whatever it is, whether it's a roundabout or wh however you name a particular hazard. In other words a good mirror signal manoeuvre routine, however you apply it but in a particular order, which gives a discipline, so that you're keeping yourselves out of the problems that other people may give you if you allow them to. So that's what how this is geared. So having said that if you'd like to get ready I'll give you the answer to all the questions. And erm if you ringed it just tick the answer as appropriate. Hopefully they're are the same as the ring, if not tick the other one. Question one is A. Question two is D,... question three is A,... four C,... five B.... Question six erm [tut]... A should be [reading] Lane markings and divisions [], that's the white, B for [reading] Green exit,... entry slip roads [], Red C for the hard shoulder and D the amber central reserve.... Number seven. You should have ringed the following. A, B and D. I'll repeat that one. Ring the following, A, B and D. Question eight... D. Question nine... A. And question ten, you should have the word [reading] Preventable [] and words to the effect Should not have been in that position and not have assumed that the other driver was going to do what he eventually did do. Words to that effect. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Lyndsey got it right obviously. Great guffaws at the back there.... Right, are there any points then that you want to raise on that? Or do you want to sit there and ruminate a bit while... while you have a look see what you've got?... [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Are there any queries on e any of the particular questions? [speaker001:] . Mm. [Stan:] Any you find ambiguous or er doubtful?... How about [speaker001:] the roundabout question's very interesting. [Stan:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm... erm... a lot of people don't seem to know the rules at roundabouts and... you cannot [Stan:] You're right, they don't. [speaker001:] assume anything at a roundabout [Stan:] No. No. [speaker001:] and you have to be so careful now erm... and y you get in the the l the larger roundabouts and more and more lanes. And I d I don't think a lot of people actually know the rules when they get into a roundabout and.... [Stan:] No. Let's go through them then shall we? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Stan:] Yeah, let's just run through what we feel are appropriate. Er quite right, people don't know, and if they do know they don't care some of them. Er they think it's old old hat to give signals. [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Because they know what they're doing. [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] Why should they bother about what other people want to do? And by vir If they get through as quickly as possible they don't need signals anyway. Cos peop [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] people are not really gonna benefit, they're going so quick. The the main thing you've got to think about with roundabouts is that Where does it where does it all start? Does it start on the roundabout? Or does it start on the approach side of the roundabout? Where c [speaker001:] . [Stan:] Y Sure. Where can you gain the information on the approach side if you can't see the roundabout? [speaker001:] . The road markings. [Stan:] Road markings. And the? [speaker001:] . [Stan:] sign. How often do people though erm glean that information? Do they take it in? Do they inwardly digest it? Do they observe and concentrate? If the roundabout suggests that the road you're on is a fairly wide road and the road you're exiting on is a fairly narrow road it will normally indicate you're going from probably a duel carriageway, which you know you're on if you're already on it, but the road you're entering might not be. So therefore your position And remember that the cardinal thing with all driving is think correct position, think correct speed, think correct gear. Position, speed, gear. So all the time you're thinking that. So the first thing you're always gonna think about is position. So as you come up to a roundabout, you're thinking of the exit or exits. It might be straightforward like that one. It might be an awkward one. Some of them have got arms going off all over the place. So if you're if it's a strange area to you it's up to you to organize yourself. Don't try and do it at too fast a speed. Give yourself time. Because if you don't give yourself time nobody else will. If you go rushing in and you're in a thirty and you're doing forty five they'll all rush in with you. And you're past the sign you're into the roundabout and you're not quite sure what you do so what do you do? Take a chance? Or do you keep going round until [LAUGHTER] you've found the the right exit that you want []? And that's not so daft as it seems you know. If you get into a roundabout and you m and you make a mistake, what's the best thing to do? Take a late manoeuvre and dive in? Or go round and another look at it? Go round, have another look at it. Don't be ever be frightened to do that. Never make a rash move in conflicting traffic situations because you'll find yourself... Er they might gesticulate at you, they might blow their horn at you, they might say some very rude words that you've never heard before. Or you could have accident or an incident. So always give yourself time. So as you come up on the approach side, think position. Now... if we're going to exit on that side, where's the best position that you would normally be in? Position one or position two? [speaker001:] Two. Two. One. [Stan:] Anybody... Who said one?... Okay? So... you're going to follow through in position one, and erm if the situation allows it and there's not much traffic on the roundabout and you can see that the exit side is the same width as the entry side, is there anything wrong in following round in that position? If you've got an exit like that? As opposed to following round like that? Is there anything wrong in it? [speaker001:] .... . No. . that the... third exit you should be in that position. [Stan:] The preferable position, I've got to say is the position... two, unless the circumstances allow you to be in position one. Say for example er you come up and you might see that erm there is a parked vehicle there. There might be a lot of traffic sort of nosing out there or there might be a congestion there for some reason. If you think the position there is better well of course you can take that position. The Highway Code [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] suggests that you take the easiest and safest route through the roundabout. But what you've got to be very careful about is that if you go into a roundabout... in that position and you get somebody in that position who is also going the same way and there's a pinch point there, that's the danger. Who has right of way... at that point? Who has right of way on a roundabout?... So [speaker001:] . [Stan:] You see we've got here a divergence of opinion immediately haven't we? Now imagine then that we're all going round a roundabout. Are we all of the same opinion?... We're not are we? Cos So therefore if there's any element of doubt keep yourself into position two. There are circumstances where you would adopt position one. If it's safe to go through in that position and then you can see that the exit side is clear, okay, there's nothing wrong with that. But the the erm query that's put down on that little paper there suggested that there was a problem, and a person who was coming in with you erm followed right the way round. And you often see them do that don't you?... [door knock]... Yeah, sure. You often see them do that. So be aware of the possibility of anybody cutting across the lane that you're already in. And the only way of making sure they don't unless it's completely clear is to be in a a safe positive lane on your way through the roundabout. You might get erm Yeah I'll be with you in a sec. You might other roundabouts where they've got satellite roundabouts. Er and and those they're even more critical. They work very very well as long as you take your time and you're always in the right position, and anticipate... who's gonna come through. Yes? [speaker001:] er position two is always for tur for taking the first turning off the... [Stan:] No.... No. It's er It it is for that. Yes. You're right, I mean you would obviously be in that position if you were going to turn left, but if you're If you're going to go down there by all means, but it's safer if y Say you're you're n car number two behind car number one in position two and he's inc signalling left. Well alright he's gonna turn left, er just pause let him clear and then follow the way t follow the way through. So you've got to have a little bit of patience in relation to what other road users may do. He may even change his mind mightn't he? They often do don't they? They're signalling Oh I don't want to go that way I want the next one. So if y if you're manoeuvring round him and he suddenly changes his mind we're compounding what he is actually doing, by getting assuming that he's gonna do the right thing. So if you work on the presumption then that that position is the preferable one, bearing in mind that you know what you're doing but you don't know what other people are doing.... Any other points on that? [speaker001:] Can you just talk about indicators on roundabouts? Cos that frustrates me, when I'm waiting to go onto a roundabout and I don't know where the other c I can't really read where the other cars are... going. [Stan:] No. Because... very very often people when They may not be sure themselves might they? You see you can't read into their minds. They might be total strangers and they think Where? Oh there's the there's the one I want to go. They've probably not read the sign, or they might not give an indicator at all. So al don't ever take anything for granted. Even when we're talking about the person who has right of way on a roundabout. Now who normally has right of way on a roundabout? [speaker001:] . [Stan:] So you immediately all said the person on the right. You were all quite comfortable with that. Have you ever gone onto a roundabout being the person on the right, and somebody's come out [smacking sound] straight in front of you? Yes? So it doesn't always work does it? See we kn we know but does everybody else know? You're on a motorway. You're on the main part of the carriageway,... and coming in on the left there is this traffic coming down a slip road to join you. Who has right of way? [speaker001:] People on the motorway. [Stan:] ... People on the motorway. Now we feel that that's correct. Have you ever been on a motorway when somebody has pushed their way in front of you and caused you inconvenience, made you brake? I'm sure you have. We all have haven't we? So you cannot take it for granted. You can work on a presumption, a prebonderance of probabilities or whatever, but I mean what you cannot do is take it that it's absolutely fact that that is going to happen. So always work out in your mind that nobody has right of way in those circumstances. If you keep that in your mind you won't get yourself drawn in on a f false premise that you must be okay. Very often you will be. But you don't always judge purely on that. You look at the vehicle, you look at the driver, you look at the attitude of the vehicle. What's its speed? What's its position? That is, if you're concentrating and observing, which is one of the cardinal things I've already mentioned.... [speaker001:] Erm... Cathy's gone home. Er she won't be coming back this afternoon. [Stan:] Oh right. [speaker001:] Okay? [Stan:] Okay. Thank you very much indeed.... So we've got to the situation then where erm we are making sure that nobody is gonna put us in a position whereby they can cause us problems. And if you work on that presumption, and I'm not suggesting you creep around frightened of your own shadow going at a slow speed, just wor working with deliberation and making sure you move through the situation competently, but don't take anything for granted. Now any other points on the er... on the paper? [speaker001:] Stan, just st still on the question of roundabouts and the vexed question of mini-roundabouts, you know these dots in the middle of the the the of junctions. [Stan:] Yes. [speaker001:] Erm and you see people frequently charging across the middle or even... to the right-hand side of them because they don't believe that you know that that they have to you know er be observed and gone round and erm whatever. Erm they're the they're there for a purpose and their size is there for a purpose in terms of er of the constrictions of the other road er sizing or whatever, and obviously huge vehicles who just can't possibly manoeuvre without going over. I mean one assumes that's why the Highway Authority put them there at that size. What's the actual legal position about... incursion onto that centre spot? [Stan:] Mm. Well you'll normally find Ian that those erm roundabouts are put at points where there is there's a known problem in relation to access from from minor [speaker001:] Yeah. [Stan:] roads onto major roads, and it's a cheap and easy way for [LAUGHTER] local authorities [speaker001:] Mm. [Stan:] to segregate traffic []. And also of course i you can't always... f em put in a big roundabout because there might be buildings there, there might be erm erm services there that they can't remove etcetera. So it's a temporary measure in many ways. They work quite effectively. But like everything else they'll only work with the cooperations of of the of the er motoring public. So always treat those in exactly the same way as you would a normal roundabout, so that you're coming up and always assuming that people should give way etcetera... in the manner in which they should unless the roundabout directs otherwise. And erm should you go round them in such a way that erm is... making it more difficult for you and more difficult for other people? The answer is no. Erm as you say Ian large vehicles, they can't possibly go round them. Erm I do a lot of er large goods vehicle training and if you get erm with a very large vehicle thirty eight tonnes, you cannot, even with an artic which has got a very good... dogleg to get round, you cannot do it. And therefore you've got to take the shortest route across. And these are just little blips in the road, you know. I'm not talking about those which are built round. But erm they are built in a such a way that they should cater for the largest vehicle that is likely to use that road. So use the normal rules on the approach side for those, I E roundabout rules, but going back onto the signals again, on roundabouts like that don't give unnecessary signals. Erm the point which I don't think I a quite adequately covered, erm Alan mentioned it did you not, in relation to where you give a signal, erm th the h new Highway Code makes a slight variation in relation to where you should... give the signal when you're exiting on the roundabout. A lot of people are quite clear when they know they're gonna turn left like that. Erm a lot of people aren't so clear when they're going straight ahead. They very often will signal right then signal left. And they're not gonna do that at all, they're going straight ahead. So don't give a signal at all. You're just going straight through. If you give a signal left people'll think you're going there. If you give signal right they'll think you're going there. But... when you're going to that exit there if you get to that position and you haven't give a sig given a signal, that's the point, just after the junction there at the point of the junction, to give a left-hand indicator signal, mainly for people waiting there. This is the point you meant Alan wasn't it? [speaker001:] Yes. [Stan:] You're waiting and you're thinking... Er and this is particularly the case with a large goods vehicle, you'll be sitting waiting to go and there's a lovely gap and you think Can I? And Yes I No I can't. Cos he's given a signal too late, and by the time you start to move there's another vehicle coming round the corner. And of course that's what encourages some of the chaps in the large goods vehicles to use their weight... er to push their way through. A little bit intimidating isn't it? But you can understand It's not excusable really but you can understand their... impatience when people c consistently don't tell them what they're going to do. So... indicate at that point that you're gonna exit there. If you're going all the way round, indicate right. The only time you're gonna indicate right is that position there, when you're going there. Be careful about those sort of junctions. They're not always straight forward. So if you're gonna turn left don't give a signal there, you're gonna turn left in there. You must reserve that signal till you get to that point there. Don't give too many signals on a small roundabout. If you give too many, by the time you go click click, you know they say What was that? It's too late. They don't know what you intend to do and what you've actually done. You must give other drivers, and riders, time to absorb the information that you're giving them. Your signal is the only voice you've got, apart from the horn, is the only voice you've got at telling them what you intend to do. So you must give people time. And if you if they can't absorb the information what's the point in giving the signal in the first place? Now we'll talk a bit more about signals because presently we're going to have a look at a... a little bit of video which is erm showing commentary. Er I don't know whether you've ever... er done commentary driving, or heard commentary driving have you? And er the idea is to highlight the things that you feel are pertinent to you and what you're going to do about them. But we'll be coming onto that in about five minutes. Now any other points about any of the other questions? [speaker001:] Stan, can I just turn round the other way what you were talking about there? You said about the the driver giving the left-hand indication as he's about to leave the roundabout. If you're in the situation where you're waiting to come onto the roundabout, you see somebody who's indicated left, you assume they're gonna turn off so you pull onto the roundabout and they're not, . [Stan:] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] who's in the wrong? [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] You both are. Yeah. [] If y i er when you see that You remember I said don't assume anything? You've been sitting in a side road waiting to come out, and you see a vehicle coming along and it's got its left-hand indicator on and you think Oh lovely! I've been waiting here for ages. It's probably only a... you know a matter of seconds but it seems a long time. You start to move and he comes he gives you a horn warning swerves around and carries on up the road. Who's in the wrong? [speaker001:] You. [Stan:] You both are.... He for i indicating he's gonna turn left when he's not, you for assuming he's going to turn left when he isn't. So you cannot assume anything. You've got to make sure absolutely certain that that vehicles's gonna turn. Wait till you see him start to slow down. See the posture of the vehicle er the man inside the vehicle. Have a look in the vehicle. Don't just look at the vehicle, look at the things attendant to the vehicle. The wheels. How he's got his hands on the wheel. If you're coming along and you see a stationary vehicle, what's the driver doing? Is he looking over his or her shoulder? Or are they fiddling down? Are they likely to open the door? There are so many little bits and pieces that you can... accommodate in you own mind if... you want to. You can all do it. We know you can. You can all concentrate. Can you concentrate a hundred percent all the time?... Anybody here think they can? I'd like to come and shake your hand if you Because there ain't no such animal. You cannot do it. What you've got to do is reserve your concentration for those particular times when it's a... particular need. And the other times your concentration will drop a little bit. So you've got to learn how to cultivate your ability to summon up the levels that you need when they're particularly needful. Anything else on roundabouts? Cos we've spent an awful lot of [LAUGHTER] time on it []. I don't mind because if you've got the questions we'll we'll certainly spend the time.... Good. Any other points that erm you want to raise on any of the others then? [speaker001:] I was a little bit surprised at the answer to nine. somewhere that you didn't need your headlights if there was street lighting. [Stan:] Well... you see it says a forty mile an hour limit that one. Erm so if it's thirty it doesn't appertain, but erm... if It does if you're at or near a road junction, even in a thirty. But ha are they enforced now? Ha They're not are they? So therefore people, like yourselves, are understandably quite surprised Oh I didn't realize that. [speaker001:] What is the distance? [Stan:] I mean if you'd have been reported last week for it you would think Yeah I'm damn sure that's right, you know. [speaker001:] What is the distance away from a from a corner? I mean is there stipulated distance? [Stan:] Yes there is. Yes. [speaker001:] What is that distance? [Stan:] Ten metres. [speaker001:] Cos I... well I frequently come across insists on parking his car... less than that distance [Stan:] Yeah. Well yes it is an offence. But the thing is this. Erm the police will only apply their resources to a matter which they feel is appropriate to the need of that particular problem. [speaker001:] . [Stan:] And er the need of this particular problem is unless there's an area whereby there is an accident risk they won't bother with it. They can't deal with everything can they? So therefore erm you've got to be aware of these things and consider the safety implications as we all do. [speaker001:] We've actually got a situation outside where I live where a thirty mile an hour speed limit is erm finishes just in front of some of the houses and of course we've got no access to their the gardens so we just park on the road. So we're parking illegally but the police actually have almo they've said they will turn a blind eye to it if providing that we all do it sensibly and without and face like in the line of the traffic. [Stan:] Yes. Yes, that's right. [speaker001:] And in fact it's less of a hazard at night... than [Stan:] Mm. [speaker001:] it is in the day. [Stan:] Yeah probably is. So it's a question of using your common sense. And er you look at the needs of particular area and erm apply er th the rule of thumb to a certain extent. Er I mentioned in the earlier session today about erm a situation that appertained when I was in the police at Maidstone. And erm the majority of people who do this sort of work are ex-police officers and erm that's why w you know we have the training and we can re recall instances of bad driving, that's why we're q quite vehement in our pursuit of safety procedures. Cos you see the results unfortunately of the people who don't follow them. But one of the problems in the Maidstone area was parking on the footpath. Now you might think to yourself Well that's not a big problem. But this particular road was an A t an A road and it was round a very sharp bend up a l a gradient and in a thirty limit. People used to consistently park because they hadn't got... garages. But round the corner there are side roads. But they would insist on parking on the footpath. So I said to my blokes on several occasions, and they used to think I was a proper pain in the derriere I expect, Go up sort them out, don't necessarily report them, advise them if necessary, if they consistently do it you'll have to use a fixed penalty ticket. It wasn't so much the fact that of parking on the footpath it was the consequences of parking on the footpath. I E you get a blind person come along. Erm you get a a woman with a pram. Now it's a fast road, what have got to do? Knock the bloke up and say Can you come and move your car? Out in the road round the round. One-way street and they come littering round there. Much [speaker001:] . [Stan:] faster than thirty. Sorry? [speaker001:] Is that Crescent? [Stan:] Sorry? [speaker001:] Is that Crescent? [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, that's right. [] You know it do you? [speaker001:] Yeah. They still go through there at. I know. Well funnily enough I went down there last week, and I must admit I I came round the corner and there was one particular vehicle still does it. And it's a Capri. And it's always parked on the footpath. And there was a traffic warden standing there doing a traffic er doing a fixed penalty ticket. And I must admit I th I I sort of applauded him. Not literally. I thought Thank goodness for that. Now that vehicles's not there any more. But for weeks... you know it was parked there all day and very often at nighttime. Now he appears to have got the message. I don't want to see people nicked but that was a danger. And erm you know that's sort of a d a difference to yours, Mm. [Stan:] where they f they perceive the problem or they don't. Sorry. [speaker001:] Yeah. Can I just ask you, this restrictions is it for forty mile an hour and above, or is it just in the forty mile an hour? [Stan:] No, and above. Yeah, yeah.... Any other points? Quite happy about the two-second rule then? We're gonna deal with that a little bit more in a minute. No queries on that?... Erm lane markings and divisions. I saw a few sort of puzzled looks when [speaker001:] Yeah. [Stan:] we went on to er the red and amber. You probably got some of the others, but it's the red and amber that causes the problems isn't it? You think Is it is the red on the right or is it on the left? Now you might think to yourself Well what the devil difference does it make, whether we know whether it red or amber? Do you think it makes a difference?... What do you reckon Lyndsey? [speaker001:] Probably subconsciously. It's one of those things that you always take for granted till it's obviously taken away from you. [Stan:] Right. [speaker001:] If they were all the same colour you'd think... But because you've become so used to seeing the green and ambers and the reds... Mm. [Stan:] So wh [speaker001:] you notice them. [Stan:] When could it be of particular use to you do you think? [speaker001:] . in fog. [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] Er in any adverse weather conditions, particularly fog, where you're travelling along and you suddenly see erm a red stud on your right-hand side. Where would you be? [speaker001:] Hard shoulder. Going down a slip-road. [Stan:] Hard shoulder. Yes. Somebody said this morning On the wrong side of the carriageway, [LAUGHTER] which you probably []... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] [LAUGHTER] you probably would be. [] but you don't suddenly turn round and go the other way do you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] But fog can come down very quickly. You know you're in a position where everything's hunkydory and all of a sudden you're in a a bank of fog. And you do very quickly lose y lose track of where you are. So it can be very very useful there. So a little knowledge can help you. This question of er lawfully cross or straddle double solid lines.... Erm to pass a pedal cyclist. Now how many of you here have been in situations where you've been behind a pedal cyclist and you've been tempted, I'll not say you've done it, but you've been tempted to go past?... Yes? Yeah. Qu I know, I know. You all put your han The thing is, you should never be tempted to do it. It might enter your head Oh Lord! Have I got to sit behind this chap for ages? You can overtake... on a double white line. What it says is you must not cross or straddle the line. So if you can overtake with safety there's no real problem is there? But can you overtake with safety? Cos when they place these they're always in a zone of danger, double white lines. They're very rigorously enforced. And anybody here with the technical services department they would confirm that. But the main thing you've got to think about is if you start to overtake and the cyclist who may be wearing his er stereophonic Walkman, erm Beethoven's Fifth or some headbanging music going on his Is he aware of you around? Probably not. He might come round a drainhole cover just as you're about to pass him. You either stamp Lucas up his [smacking sound] right buttock or you go over the double white lines, or you brake and somebody behind might be too close behind you. So you can't really take for granted can you that erm he may or may not do anything. How about the milk float?... The old milkman going down the road reading the paper isn't he? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Er about five miles an hour. And er what have you got to do in a double white lines system? Got to follow him. Haven't you? Erm... if it's a hatching it's a little different isn't it? Tha which is you know just an indication. It's not bounded by a solid line but it's just a normal hatching. It's like er a double white line with broken lines on your side. You can overtake if it's safe to do so and you can regain your nearside without danger or or inconvenience to other vehicles coming the other way. But as far as a solid line is concerned... don't do it, because i it immediately if you if you o do transgress it'll mean penalty points if you're seen doing it, regardless of the consequences of it. Straightaway. It's an endorsable... moving trac traffic offence. Any other things then on that, before we move onto er pastures new?... All quite happy? Okay. If you'd like to just pass those along to the end of the line then we'll collect them all up.... [speaker001:] . [Stan:] [shouting] Now you'll recall I said that we will we will try and isolate [] try and isolate throughout the afternoon those things which are going to be useful to you. Erm [speaker001:] the end of the line. [Stan:] let's talk then about this question of observation and concentration. We're gonna have a little look at the video in a minute, but before we do that I'd like to erm draw you attention to a situation... This is a real one... which erm was an accident that took place. Now I'd like you to give me your opinions as to the... whether is was preventable and whether it was blameworthy. And if it is blameworthy, who is to blame? So I'll I'll give you the scenario. [speaker001:] Excuse me. Before you start on that do you mind if I turn off the flickering television screen? [Stan:] Well I've left that on because I can't guarantee I'm gonna get me channel zero but [speaker001:] Could we just turn it a bit perhaps... into the side? [Stan:] Erm [speaker001:] Do you want me to... push it round? [Stan:] Is it really disturbing you? [speaker001:] It is ac I could sit in a different place. [Stan:] No no, that's alright. [speaker001:] Thank you. That's great.... [Stan:] Sorry about that.... Even though she was late. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Stan:] Right, here's the scenario then. So thirty mile an hour road and busy day. And er quarter to eight er quarter to nine in the morning, all the commuters are running around half asleep, wish they'd got up a bit earlier but they didn't. Here we have chap who er... wants to buy a paper. Here... is a paper shop. He comes along, Oh! A paper shop! Opens his door to get out his paper to get out to get the paper, little boy on bike comes along knocks him off. Didn't see the lad. Should have done he's just overtaken him. But he was selfish, all he was concerned with was going and getting his paper. The little boy. he's about eight, he falls on the ground, he's not really hurt, his legs are tangled up in his bike and he's trying to get up. Now vehicle number one and vehicle number two is following him and vehicle number three is following him. Now you can see that they're fairly close together aren't they. But in between vehicle two and vehicle one there's a reasonable distance, and the distance is in fact... seventy five feet. So what's the overall stopping distance at thirty miles an hour?... [speaker001:] Seventy five foot. [Stan:] Seventy five feet. So he should be able to stop this chap.... And he does. And... he stops just there, no problems. Number three, he's not very far behind the other chap, same distance when it all happens. Any problem as far as he's concerned?... [speaker001:] . As long as he's got his thinking distance. [Stan:] Right. So where does he first... see the problem? [speaker001:] two brakes. his brake lights. Yeah. [Stan:] That's it. When he he's he's erm... done his braking. Now the braking,... bearing in mind It takes you half a second to react anyway, but hi his actual thinking distance is about thirty feet. And the forty five feet is needed for his braking distance giving the overall of... seventy five. So when he sees that [tape change]

[speaker001:] Excellent. Right. Presents. Erm... presents. Present one is for Derek.... Erm [Clare:] Whee! [Wendy:] you have to fill in the rest of that and give it back to me. Erm [Derek:] Erm sure, no problem. [Wendy:] I've no idea whether you made a note of your mileages to Leeds and back, but please make something up. [Derek:] No, but I know how many miles I know how many miles it is to Leeds and back. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] That's not a problem. [Wendy:] Well please make something up and fill it in. Erm... and er I'll take that away [Derek:] [whispering] Okay. [] [Wendy:] with me today. [Derek:] Okay, I shall fill [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] that in now. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] and then you'll see it again when I finally pay you. [] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] But not before! And I [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] won't be paying you until I've got some money, [] [Derek:] Well, [Wendy:] I'm afraid. [Derek:] Leeds is... Well it's actually not Leeds it's... Garforth [LAUGHTER] and then it's Leeds and it's back []. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I don't know. [] [Derek:] [whispering] That's twenty five. Fifty. []... Call it fifty miles. [Wendy:] Whatever.... Write down some appropriate mileages and that's... super. Erm... my next prezzie is sort of more of the same actually. I've got some expenses claim forms cos I thought it would be a good idea to be able to claim expenses, [Clare:] Yep. [Wendy:] on a form... [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] you know. Well, whatever.... [voices in background] Erm we nearly knocked over Simon [LAUGHTER] on our way here. I was driving along t... you know t telling David that all the time... that that people are on the roads practising how to drive and becoming better drivers there are people like that wally there crossing the roa Oh, it's Simon []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Oops. [Derek:] Excellent. [Wendy:] I'll tell him about that later. I should have just put my foot down and knocked him over. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] It'd've served him right for being such a spaced-out hippy. [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] But erm... there you go. Do you want to grab a couple of those [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] and then then... those are for the Derek and Clare symbiote. [Derek:] Right. Erm [Clare:] Thank you. [Wendy:] Erm... new version of the Spoken Cor Corpus Consent Form that has a little space for tape numbers. It's not desperately important but [Derek:] What's a reasonable amount to claim per mile by the way? [Wendy:] Christ knows. I've got to phone the Inland Revenue tomorrow and ask them what the maximum [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] that they'll allow us to claim. They have set amounts. Oh, [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] what's what er C C's your car? [Derek:] Er thirteen hundred. [Wendy:] Thirteen hundred. Righty ho. Cos it I gather there's sort of two or [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] three bands. [Derek:] There must be. Makes sense. [Clare:] [tut] Okay. [Wendy:] So actually could you make a note on there somewhere, erm sort of underneath the [reading] at per mile [] or something... that's it's er. [Clare:] It's very exciting, I can fill one of these in. [Wendy:] Excellent. [Clare:] Whee! [Wendy:] I hope you have the receipt. [Clare:] I do have the receipt, yes. [Wendy:] Otherwise, as it says [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] on the top, [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [reading] Remember to attach all receipts and note all mileages. This claim will not be paid in the absence of the relevant documentation. [] [Derek:] That do? [Wendy:] So there! [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] Brilliant. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Clapped out V W Jetta. I don't think they care how clapped out it is actually. [Wendy:] Erm... David, have some of those. [Clare:] It's not clapped out. It's lovely. [Derek:] It's done one thousand miles. [Wendy:] You guys can have [papers slapped on table] those. [David:] Thank you. [Clare:] Right. Thank you. [David:] Ooh excellent. some real paper. [Wendy:] Erm... and then we can have one of these each. [David:] Ooh. [Wendy:] Which are... erm... This is actually me being bored this afternoon. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] It might be an idea to just make a note of... [Derek:] Jeez. [Wendy:] what the counties are that we're covering, [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] and... about how many words we want from each one. It basically winds down to about ninety thousand words from each county. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] Erm... [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] but I haven't, because they haven't, broken down Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales into separate counties. [David:] Yeah. [Derek:] Mhm. [Wendy:] Erm... if you add all that up it comes to about three million words. [Clare:] Great. [Derek:] Three million? [Wendy:] Yeah. [David:] Yeah. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Which is probably the most realistic estimate of what we're collecting. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm although we may be collecting more than that, and we may be collecting less than that. I think three million is a fairly reasonable amount [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] to assume. Erm [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] ... don't want to be sort of too [LAUGHTER] enthusiastic about the number of words, just in case it turns out that they can't []. [Derek:] Oh erm... [reading] Not Tyneside or Northumberland except for businesses []? [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Ah. Right. [Wendy:] That's because Maureen erm [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] has collected in those areas fairly extensively. [Derek:] Right. Er what you had down [Wendy:] And is going to carry on collecting in those areas. [Derek:] What you had down on the previous one was er... schools and... businesse Schools, businesses and something else, I think, that she'd collected [Clare:] No. [Derek:] from. [Wendy:] She she's collected [Derek:] Certainly schools and [Wendy:] from schools, erm the university, [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm I mean sh she ended up her description of [David:] Mm. [Wendy:] what she'd collected by saying that she hasn't really gone to any [Derek:] It's just that... [Wendy:] businesses, so [Derek:] er... [speaker001:] [whispering]. [] [Derek:] I was thinking of asking Monica if she could record something from the the Model Car Club and [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] their club meetings. [Wendy:] Oh that'd be okay I think. [David:] Is that... Monica? [Derek:] Yes. [David:] Erm she's alread already asked her Dad but [Derek:] Right. [David:] but they don't have... meetings. They they Meetings take [Derek:] . [David:] place during the evening er as very sort of at the [Derek:] Right. Okay. [David:] it wouldn't work. And we've [Derek:] Right. [David:] missed the A G M. [Derek:] Okay. [David:] It was earlier this year. [Derek:] Fair enough. [whispering]. []... [Wendy:] Erm anyway I mean that's just a guideline... really. Erm... I'm going to or I've I've started every time a recording comes in making a note of where it's from and what type of recording it is, [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] and once I've got [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] I've got the word count from each one I'll be able to sort of tot up and tell you when to stop collecting from that area. [Derek:] Well we're gonna have North Yorkshire sewn up pretty soon. [Wendy:] We are. Erm which is good. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] Then we can start with [LAUGHTER] the rest of Yorkshire []. I l I gave Eddie a load of the bumph... [Derek:] Excellent. [Wendy:] and told him to go away with it and think about what he could do, and er mentioned money to him, and he liked the idea. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm... [Derek:] Yes. Eddie has a er a very large bank balance but unfortunately it's not his money. [Wendy:] Not his. [LAUGHTER]. [David:] [LAUGHTER]. Erm [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Yes, and it's guaranteed by his parents isn't it? [] [David:] Mhm. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] So er Eddie has a vested interest in getting some money from somewhere. [Derek:] Yes. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] candidate.... [David:] The map that's in the back of what they gave us... looks as though it might blown up. [Wendy:] I've given up on that idea actually. Erm I think writing it down's probably... just as reasonable. [David:] Oh no. I mean it doesn't actually [Derek:] oh! [David:] need to be very big, we just need some coloured pins. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. Oh my pen's gone walkies. Bugger. [Derek:] Here, borrow that. [Wendy:] I want my pen. There it is, I've found it. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Okay. Erm [Clare:] No pleasing some people is there. [Wendy:] Well I No I thought I'd better find it cos otherwise I'd walk off without it and then you'd get my pen, and I [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] bought this as a company pen. [Derek:] Oh right. [Wendy:] I've got a receipt and everything. [Clare:] This is a company Bic! [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] It's true! [] [Derek:] Well we'd return it to the company then wouldn't we? [speaker001:] Mm. [Derek:] It just might be [LAUGHTER] a bit short of ink when we do []. [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Well the ink belongs to the company too. [Derek:] Well we'll use it [LAUGHTER] on company business []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Erm where were we? I've completely lost track now, and it's all [Clare:] [tut] Right. [Wendy:] your fault. [] [Derek:] I'm sorry. [Clare:] So you've given a breakdown of th roughly how much [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] ... word count we need from each area. [Wendy:] Yeah. I mean it it's [Clare:] Which is very helpful [Derek:] It it goes further south than I thought it did. [Wendy:] Yeah. Erm... the the [Derek:] Er cos I I wouldn't have in I When I was making the the analysis I w wasn't including Hereford and Worcester and I wasn't [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] including Warwickshire. [Wendy:] Well what they've done basically is they've drawn erm... This list contains all the counties bar erm the sort of Tyneside area [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] in their supra-regions erm North [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] and Midland. [Clare:] Mm. [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] And the Midland actually goes down to sort of the top of... erm Cambridgeshire, [David:] Oh right. [Wendy:] and then slightly south [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] and west of there, [Derek:] Right. Okay. [Wendy:] down to the south the south tip of Wales pretty much. I mean it's two thirds of the country. [Clare:] Yeah. [David:] Hereford. [Wendy:] It's not two thirds of the population but it's two thirds of the. [Derek:] Richard. [David:] Richard's in Hereford. [Derek:] Yes. [David:] Warwickshire. Isn't Sam in Warwickshire? [Derek:] Er Sam is in Warwickshire, yes. [David:] Yes. [Derek:] I'm going to get an address for Sam anyway cos I I want to get in touch with him [David:] Yes. [Derek:] about GOD. [David:] Yes. Is the Captain still there, or is he somewhere else? [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. The Captain is in Coventry. [David:] Right. [Derek:] Er... [Wendy:] I have to ask, [LAUGHTER] now that you've said that [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] It's a i it's a game design project. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Okay. [] [Derek:] It stands for Gamer's Own Design. [Wendy:] Fine. [Derek:] It's creating a game background in six days. [David:] Six days. [Wendy:] Yes. Okay. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] . What do you do on the seventh day? [Derek:] Rest. [Clare:] [whispering] Rest. [] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Not game frantically? [Clare:] No. [David:] No. No, no. [Derek:] It was suggested that everybody relax a lot. [David:] After staying awake for a hundred and forty four hours. Yeah. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] In whatever way they felt appropriate. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] And I'm not going to expand on that cos the [LAUGHTER] tape's running []. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Good good. Good good. Actually erm... erm [LAUGHTER] just to butt in t here []. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Who was it? Aaron I think was saying yesterday that it would be a good idea to get at least one tape of some erm stoned people. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Right. [] [Wendy:] Because people use [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] language differently when they're [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] under the affluence. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Affluence. [] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Indeed. [Clare:] It it's very true. [Derek:] Well we know who to talk to don't we? [Clare:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. We'll get you a [Wendy:] What? [Derek:] a tape of somebody under the affluence. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] That's the one, yes. [] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [sigh] After having hear his discourse on... the wonders of interchangeable brain chips and the lunar landscape just above the ceiling border in thirty Road, I think he would probably be... quite a good candidate. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] You'll ask him then? [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Yes. [Derek:] Yeah. I [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] I had other people in mind as well actually. [LAUGHTER] But er [] [Wendy:] Well I I mean I was thinking you know er it's probably a good idea for for erm Well I've heard it proposed by people who do these things [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] that it's a good idea for when people are intending to get stoned in a heavy way to have a baby-sitter, so there's no reason why the baby- sitter couldn't sit there [LAUGHTER] with a tape recorder []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] It's true. [] Yes. [David:] Nobody else in the room is going to stop them. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] But the erm the best thing would then be for the when the these people came round again to listen to the tape, [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] and have power of veto over it. As always. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Oh yes. Yeah, I think they'd probably have to listen [David:] Ah. Yes it's a point. [Clare:] to what they've said because [David:] Point, they can't be under the affluence when they sign the consent form or. [Clare:] Mm. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Yeah. Erm [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] No, no, no, you are not Captain James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise. [] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Does he do that too? [] [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] I don't think he does but I can think of people who would. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm... well, I mean that that would be... be erm [Clare:] Yeah. The other thing my father said when I was [Wendy:] ... interesting for want of a [Clare:] speaking to him was that erm the place he where he's recording in Scotland erm... tends to have an unusual vocabulary. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Occasionally swear words are interspersed with functional words like it's and mine but [LAUGHTER] i it tends to be [] very heavily orientated towards the the less... nice side of the language up there. [Wendy:] That's alright. [Clare:] So I said to him it was fine, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] because you know the kind of material we're recording bad language isn't gonna get an appropriate representation, and he's not to worry about it on that [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] account. [Wendy:] But I mean that's entirely reasonable. [David:] Mm. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm as long as we don't mind transcribing them, and I for one don't. [Clare:] No. [Wendy:] I mean I have met people who really objected strongly to transcribing swearing. Erm... [Clare:] It wouldn't worry me. [Wendy:] But... I don't [David:] . [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Well, yeah. Well we're all young enough not to be bothered by it. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] I mean it's the obviously it's the [David:] That's true. [Wendy:] older generation that were brought up in under different whatevers, [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] mores or whatever, that that would object to it. [LAUGHTER] And since I swear like a Navvy anyway, [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] it would be hypocritical to object really. [] [LAUGHTER]. Erm... erm erm erm. Well I've sort of got a note to say who did what this week, so I could tell you what I've done this week and then you could tell me what you've done this week. [Clare:] That would be good. [Wendy:] Then everybody will know. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm... I've got lots of people collecting tapes on my behalf. The the careers service came up with two tapes which was nice. Mike came up with a tape, which was nice. Erm... he claims the battery ran out before he got to his... presentation on the course but I don't necessarily believe him. The battery was flat but I don't think it was a tape and half flat. I think it was [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] This has been switched on all afternoon and left flat. Erm [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Mm. [cough] [Wendy:] But. My Dad in Nottinghamshire has Nottinghamshire fairly sewn up.... Which is nice. [Derek:] That's good. [Clare:] That's great. [Wendy:] Erm he's wandering around collecting [David:] [cough]. [Wendy:] quite happily and enjoying himself thoroughly and not going to school, which I think are are three excellent things. Erm... and my father-in-common-law in Liverpool is also running around frantically recording, but he's getting a limited variety of recordings, mainly educational. Erm have you made contact with your human in Liverpool? [Clare:] I haven't. I'm hoping he will ring me this afternoon. I... this evening. I've left another phone message for him, [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] so it's very much a case whether he actually gets in contact with me. [Wendy:] Good oh. Right. Erm... [David:] [tut] According to the last reference I looked up, erm Merseyside erm... is about as big This is an old reference, [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] but erm a tenth of that No sorry, three tenths of that is on the Wirral. [Clare:] Mm. [David:] Which erm [Derek:] So that means we need thirty thousand words from the Wirral. [David:] My parents live in the Wirral.... And they're taking a tape away on Saturday. A machine away on Saturday. [Derek:] Right. Excellent. [Wendy:] Do you want more tapes for them to take away? [David:] I've got ten. I've haven't used any of them. [Wendy:] Right. Erm I mean I can I Actually I haven't got all that many left, which I think is [Derek:] Sorry. [Wendy:] wonderful. [David:] Okay. [Wendy:] Er but I mean tell them if they need to buy anything to get the receipts, [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] then you can claim [David:] Right. [tut] Okay. [Wendy:] ... for it. But I I've got to In fact I'll make myself a note here and now, I've got to talk to and I'll get them to send some more tapes. [David:] [yawning] Right. [] [Wendy:] We can never have too many. [Clare:] No. [Wendy:] Ho ho. Erm... [Derek:] Well we could, but if we get too many we can go into business selling them or something. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Well I think we have to give them back actually. They've got British National Corpus written on them. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. [Wendy:] We should probably give them back when [LAUGHTER] we've finished with them []. [Clare:] If you do end up with er an extra box of ten or something erm could you label them up for me? [Wendy:] Yeah. No problem.... It's no problem. Erm... [Clare:] And start the sequence as well.... [Wendy:] [whispering] []. I decided it was a good idea to write things down rather than depending on the tape because erm I'm not actually going to get round to transcribing the tape quickly enough to use it as minutes. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm... Yes well I've got lots of people recording everywhere which is nice. [David:] Fine. [Clare:] Great. [Wendy:] Erm David, I wrote to Margaret at the Employment Training Unit, [David:] Right. [Wendy:] so I hope to hear from her this week. [David:] Okay. [Wendy:] Still nothing from the Conference Office. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] But I'm not gonna worry about that until halfway through the week and then I'll write to them. Do you have an address... for them? [Derek:] Er... it'll be... er University of York Conference Office, er Heslington Hall, [Wendy:] Right. [David:] . [Derek:] Y York, Heslington, York, [David:] University Road. [Derek:] Y O one five D D. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Er [Wendy:] Erm I know all that actually, so [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] Is there a human? [Derek:] ... No. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Not that I know about. [Wendy:] You don't know a name. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. No. They're all synthetics. [Derek:] I went in [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] I went in and spoke to one of the secretaries who said she would er she would do it and send us material. [Wendy:] Right. Okey-doke. Erm... [Derek:] There wasn't a contact, no. [Wendy:] Okay. Erm.... [tut] This week, in fact tomorrow, I'm going to splash out an unbelievable amount of money and buy a transcription machine. [speaker001:] [gasp] [Wendy:] This transcription machine is going to be lent to be Derek and Clare, who can argue about who has it where and when. Erm [LAUGHTER] it'll come with a set of headphones and a little doohickey for er... [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] turning the output into mono because at the moment it's stereo and it'll only come through one earhole. Erm... Cos most of the [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [] [Clare:] Oh! [Wendy:] Actually most these tapes are recorded in stereo aren't they? [Derek:] Yes. [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] That's okay then. Erm I most of the tapes that I've had in the past have been recorded mono, erm and I've needed a little doohickey to turn the... erm output into mono as well cos it's awfully off-putting spending seven and a half hours with the stuff coming in through one ear only. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. Sensory deprivation. [Derek:] Doohickey being the technical term for this is it? [Wendy:] Yes, and I've no idea how to spell it actually. [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] I'm gonna have real trouble with that. Erm you can transcribe this one. [LAUGHTER] [David:] D D double O [Derek:] D double O [Clare:] D double O [David:] C K E Y. Yeah. [Wendy:] You sure? How do you spell dooberry then?... [Derek:] D O O B E R R Y. Dooberry. [David:] I'm not I'm not Erm I don't know. I think it's [Clare:] No, I wouldn't agree with that. [David:] it's B R E Y. But certainly erm Or no. [Wendy:] Doohickey is D double O is it? [Clare:] Yes. [David:] D double O H I C [Wendy:] Good oh! [David:] K E Y. [Wendy:] Okay. [David:] I've come across that one before. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] You sure it wasn't me that wrote it? [] [Derek:] I'll tell you what,sin since I'll be [LAUGHTER] going along to Boston Spa we'll check in the dictionary []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [voices in background] [Derek:] They've got in on the shelves there. [Wendy:] I think we need soundproofing for [LAUGHTER] these meetings []. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [David:] At some point it'll be at the University. [tut] The Oxford English. [Derek:] But it won't be arriving there until they get this Well they have the C D ROM, they just haven't got it up and running. [David:] Erm well they haven't got it networked yet but they have the C D ROM players there already. [Derek:] Yeah. But they ha I I I I went [David:] . [Derek:] up and talked to the guy sitting in front of them and he said Yes we've got it but we haven't got it on those yet. So they have the C D ROM, they just haven't managed to yet.... Or something.. [Wendy:] Right. Do I take that to mean there's gonna be a online dictionary? [Clare:] Yeah. dictionary. [David:] There'll be an online computer-based dictionary. [Wendy:] How will you be able to get at it? Through an ordinary Vax account? [Derek:] No. [David:] No. [Wendy:] No. [Derek:] You've got to go [David:] . [Derek:] into the library and go up and sit at the C D ROM terminal. [Wendy:] Right. [speaker001:] . [David:] I don't think you need a password for it. Erm [Derek:] You don't. [Wendy:] Ah. [David:] And er... [Clare:] So a bit li It will be a bit like the [David:] And you don't need a ticket to get into the library. [Wendy:] No you don't. I've got a ticket anyway. I've got a graduate... [David:] Ah. [Wendy:] thing. [Clare:] It would be a bit like the library's erm index facility. [Wendy:] Mm.... [Clare:] Interesting. [Derek:] So. [Wendy:] I hope it'll crash less often than the index. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] I doubt it. [] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Er [speaker001:] Erm [Wendy:] Right. That'll be useful resource actually. [Clare:] So [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm [Clare:] Derek and I will organize ourselves about the transcription machine and [Derek:] Mm. Okay. [Wendy:] Fine. That's excellent. Erm I'll also be buying... erm... your keyboard, some tapes and... a couple of ribbons. [Clare:] Er keyboard five... [Wendy:] Not tapes. Tapes. Disks. [Clare:] five disks and one ribbon. Yes please. [Wendy:] And a ribbon. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Keyboard, five disks and one ribbon. I already made a note of that actually but [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] ... Five disks. [David:] [whispering] one ribbon. [] [Derek:] [whispering]. [] [Wendy:] Okay. I checked and it is forty nine ninety five [Clare:] Brilliant. [Wendy:] for the keyboard. [Clare:] So I reckon I reckon the total of that will be just over sixty quid. [Wendy:] Yeah. Should be. Should be. And I'll check about discounts. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] And... possibly buy some stuff myself if that's what necessary to get it over a discount price. [whispering] I also need some disks. []... [Clare:] I've done various things on my computer today and I can successfully make ASCII files. [Wendy:] Good. [Clare:] Reas reasonable sized ASCII files. [Wendy:] Good. [Clare:] So I reckon I could d do an entire transcription on Locoscript,t [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] convert the whole thing into an ASCII and just... pass you the disk. [Wendy:] Yeah. If you find yourself with a file that's big enough to manipulate but too big to turn into an ASCII file, cos it does use a lot of... [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] its processing to turn make a file into an ASCII file, don't worry, just give me the original. [Clare:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm because I've got erm a seven hundred and twenty [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] K drive. [Clare:] So it should be able to sort it out. [Wendy:] As well as the two hundred and seventy two K stupid little three- inch disks. Erm [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Which I don't approve of in the slightest. [] [Clare:] Erm [Wendy:] But I'd prefer to get ASCII files [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] because then I don't have to do anything to them. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] . [Clare:] I'll bear that in mind because that will save me start splitting documents up [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] and and transferring each part of the document into ASCII files. [Wendy:] Yeah.... Erm yeah. Whatever's easiest for you [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] erm... is probably also going to be easier for me. Erm we've done mileage and expenses claim forms and given you the bits and pieces. [Clare:] Mhm. [Wendy:] David doesn't need any packaging any more so I don't have to remind myself to... [Derek:] Well we've got all that packaging over there [Wendy:] get it. [Derek:] if you do need it. [David:] Right. [Derek:] They sent us nearly a box full of it. [Wendy:] That that was why I had a note for myself, but it's not necessary any more cos his parents are coming up. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm somebody on my behalf please, erm preferably Clare actually who has a computer, [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] an Amstrad,f for which I can give you my letterhead and formatting and you can then write letters for me. Good. I like it. [Clare:] I can yes. [Wendy:] Need somebody to talk to the D T I, since this was a D T I funded project, why don't we get them to let us record i a meeting or two. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm... parish council. The What's On page in the local paper. Public talks... and things. [David:] Aha. [Wendy:] And the Clerk of the Court in York and in other towns. Those are the things that occurred to me. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] They could all be contacted. Parish A couple of parish councils in Nottinghamshire have been very happy to let my Dad record their open meetings. [David:] . [Wendy:] And I don't see any reason why other Parish Councils shouldn't either. [Derek:] Well there's erm a Fulford parish erm er council news sheet keeps turning up here [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] anyway and everybody just takes one look at it and after everybody in the house has taken one look at it it gets thrown in the bin, if it lasts that long. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] So I'll grab the next one and go along and contact them. [Wendy:] Right. [David:] Yes, we get er an Osbaldwick one. Erm... [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Right. Things everybody else has done I suppose. Erm... you know just about everything that I've done. I've erm [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] ... hassled the Conference Office Monday. Er ran into Tony who's going to talk to his church people about religious meetings there. Er did the seminar.... [Clare:] Eventually. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Eventually. Okay. How were we to know there were gonna be two Hilton Hotels in Leeds? [Wendy:] There's only one in the bloody phone book! [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] There's j I looked in the phone book, there is only [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] one. [Clare:] You sent the recorder off to your father as well. [Derek:] Sent the r yes, sent the recorder off up to [Wendy:] Great. [Derek:] Scotland, and as I say er said before they got er some taped seminars taped sermons which they can send down. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Erm... that's the... most obvious things. Something that occurred to me this week. Erm... apparently one of the services that gets offered at Thompson Travel Agents [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] is that er you can go in and you can sit and you can talk to them about what you want for a holiday [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] and they'll talk back to you about what your best options are and and do a s a sort of interview. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] So rather than sit at the counter and do it they they have rooms which you can go to and... erm get interviewed [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] and talk about all their holiday options and how to tailor a holiday for them. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Erm it might be worth contacting them... as being a professional consultation. [Wendy:] Right. Do it.... [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Right. Okay. [Wendy:] Or somebody do it. It's just erm I'm [Derek:] I w I was just wondering if you wanted to write them a letter first [Wendy:] Okay, Clare [LAUGHTER] can write a letter []. I'll I'll be [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] If if you've got [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] the time. Have you the time... erm to write letters? [Clare:] I do have the time. If you can bring me a er I don't know a disk with your [Wendy:] I'll bring you all the disk with all the formats and whatever on it. [Clare:] Yeah. And if you tell me who to write to I sh I shall get to it and do it. [speaker001:] . [Wendy:] I'd I'd like you to write letters for me at least this week cos I'm going to be [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] horrendously busy all week this week. [Clare:] Th that's no problem at all [Wendy:] That'll be nice. [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Erm what I'll do actually seeing as I'm I get easy access to the town centre is I will go in there and see if they will agree to it, and if they won't [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] I will say Well can I send you some information... a letter and that sort of thing? [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] I'll do it that way round. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Okay. [Derek:] Okay.. [Wendy:] Right. Have you got erm... paper? Or I'd better provide you with some paper. [Clare:] If you could provide me with some paper. [Wendy:] All all the bits and pieces. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] I'll do that. Okay. [whispering] Er stationery. With an E. [] [Clare:] Cos you haven't stopped. [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Pardon? [Clare:] Because you haven't stopped. [Wendy:] What? [Clare:] You're not stationary.... [Wendy:] I'm lost actually. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Don't bother. [Wendy:] It's. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Erm [Wendy:] I was in bed until what I thought was midday today and turned out to be [LAUGHTER] one o'clock []. [Derek:] And it was one o'clock. [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] And I haven't really recovered from the shock. [] [Clare:] Erm this week I've... got a positive answer from B R about [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] recording there and that's good. [Wendy:] very excited about it. [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] It's brilliant. [Clare:] Yeah. I was very pleased about. And I'm meeting with appropriate people in B R on Monday to decide when they will let me record. [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] And then it's just a case of providing them with tapes and tape recorders and they will wander off an and do the tapes for us. [Wendy:] Excellent. [Clare:] So that's good news. Erm my father received the recorder and tapes and is enthusiastic about getting recordings for us, and that's all set up for whilst he's in Scotland next week. [Wendy:] How long's that going to be? [Clare:] Erm he's in Scotland for about the next month, but I've asked him to do the recordings in the next week. [Wendy:] Right. Then what's gonna happen to the recorder? [Clare:] He'll send it back to me [Wendy:] Okay. [Clare:] and I will probably, [speaker001:] . [Clare:] unless I hear from my contact in Liverpool, send it out to Manchester. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Next. [Wendy:] Okey-doke. Super. Erm did I say this last week? I may have done, I may not have done. When you send them send them Parcel Class but insure them for the... top amount, [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] which er it costs one pound something for [phone rings] the insurance. Erm it's about three quid to send them Parcel Post. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] That that seems to be the most reasonable way of doing it, rather than sending it registered, [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] which doesn't actually do anything except tell you that it got there. [Clare:] That's right. Yeah. [David:] . [Clare:] Er it does seem crazy to send them all round the country without insuring them. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] So... I'll see to that. [door knock] [Wendy:] Ah. It is one of us. Hello. [speaker001:] Telephone for Mr. [Derek:] Excuse me. [Clare:] Yes. Okay. [Wendy:] A popular guy. [Clare:] Cos I'm hoping cos I've got a in Manchester get me some recordings from the public library. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Their meetings hopefully, [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] and their talks. [Wendy:] Mhm. [Clare:] So that will be some stuff from Manchester as well. [Wendy:] Great. Good.... Super. [David:] Right. [Wendy:] Right. [David:] Erm [Clare:] That was my achievements for the week. [Wendy:] Well I think that's The the B R thing certainly is a big achievement. [David:] Erm... right. Derek and I went to... the Guildhall. [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] Erm and Derek was mildly successful erm and got... a... vague sort of agreement from the Deputy Returning Officer [Wendy:] Right. [David:] about erm information about the upcoming candidates for the council elections. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] Erm and the receptionist was not at all useful [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [David:] in giving me information about the weddings. Erm she wasn't entirely with it. So erm I didn't find out anything about the weddings. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [David:] [cough]. Erm... So erm I'm going to ask my mother where one gets a marriage license. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Don't do that David, she'll go white overnight. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [David:] [LAUGHTER] I will start [] from scratch... on them. [Wendy:] Don't you just don't you go the Registry Office? [David:] I really don't know. [Wendy:] I think there's just a Registry Office isn't there? [Clare:] I I have no idea. [Wendy:] I've never done it so I don't [Clare:] No. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] know. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] And I don't Intend to either. [] Erm... Yeah, I imagine if you just look under Registry Office in the phone [David:] Mm. [Wendy:] Book there'll be... [tut] something. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] The thing I did fail [Wendy:] . [Clare:] to do this week was I did actually see my landlord and meant to ask him about recording some tutorials... [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] for us. But unfortunately I did remember afterwards, having erm... berated myself for this that he is actually based in London at the [Wendy:] Ah. [Clare:] moment and so is out of our catchment area. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] But I di One of the people that's moving back into my house is a supply teacher in the York area, so I will probably talk to him [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] about whether he can get any classroom situations [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] . [Wendy:] S [Clare:] Do we still need stuff from schools in [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] the York area? [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] That's good. [Wendy:] Sue's erm... current school Sue 's current school have made positive-but-need-to-be-paid-for-it noises, so I'm going to telephone... their headmaster. [Clare:] That's the first [Wendy:] . [Clare:] time we've come back with a need-to-be-paid isn't it? Good heavens. [Wendy:] Erm... [sigh] Actually it's not. The Careers Service wanted erm to be paid as well. They the Careers Services actually asked me who if anyone was going to make money out of it, and I said Well yes, me. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] and they said Well in that case could we make some money out of it? So I just gave them the statutory amount per tape [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] erm and they put it in their Christmas Fund or something. [Clare:] Excellent. [Wendy:] Erm... but I I wasn't actually that surprised that the school er at a school asking to be paid for the tapes because erm [LAUGHTER] they've got to get their money from somewhere [Clare:] That's right. [Wendy:] and they ain't getting it off the Government at the moment []. [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] They they deserve it to a certain extent. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm so I've got to telephone him... tomorrow and sort sort of make happy and erm forthright noises about money. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm and he may then let Sue record a couple of lessons. Erm... [David:] Right. [Wendy:] I'm ge starting to get a bit upset about not getting letters back from people. I know I shouldn't really cos I shouldn't expect them to come back at all, but [sniff] it annoys me when [David:] . [Wendy:] you know three weeks ago I wrote to Scarborough College and the buggers haven't written back, even to acknowledge my letter. [sniff]. [Clare:] It's a it's a bit downheartening. [whispering] It's... not nice. [] [Wendy:] .... [Clare:] The one thing I wanted to erm bring up in this meeting, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] which you you've obviously had a mind to because you've done the breakdown about the various other regions, [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] is what we're going to do about start collecting... in other regions, because we're getting to the stage where we've almost got North Yorkshire... [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] wrapped up. [Wendy:] I've been hoping to leave it erm and see what happens. And what seems to be happening is that we're gradually remembering people we know in other regions and [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] starting with them as a basis. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm [tut] probably the most fair way to do this... erm I mean fair to our friends and relatives in other r parts of the country, is to ask them if they could either send us their local papers or [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] a copy of their local phone book. For which I'll pay. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm because those I mean the l a local Yellow Pages Or a local Thompsons actually, those are nice and narrow, [Clare:] Thompsons are better. Yeah. [Wendy:] erm... [LAUGHTER] and have postcodes in [] [sniff] Erm are very good ways of getting in touch with local organizations. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm... [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] I mean I mean I've written a letter to my cousins in South Wales asking them if they can point me at... any places that might record, but I'll actually make the contacts. [Clare:] You've you've done South Wales have you? [Wendy:] Well I haven't I wouldn't say I've done it, I've just [LAUGHTER] asked them to make [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] You've made a contact in South Wales. [] [Wendy:] asked them to make a contact. I mean But by all means [Clare:] [whispering] Okay. [] [Wendy:] make more contacts. [Clare:] Yep. I can do. [Wendy:] I don't think we have a problem We're not gonna not gonna have a problem with places getting asked twice. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] Erm... I don't [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] think that's going to be a problem at all. [Clare:] I will try and get something like that brought up from North Wales [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] at the beginning of next term because I know somebody in North Wales at the moment. [Wendy:] Right. I've I've written to a friend in in Anglesey [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] as well erm but... I mean if those come to anything at all they'll only come t gonna come to something fairly local aren't they. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] On Anglesey and in Pembroke. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Pembrokeshire. So... you know Wales is a big cou big... Well it's not a big country at all but it's big compared to a county, so [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] That was a positive response by the way from Scotland [Wendy:] Good. [Derek:] and that my parents have the thing, it arrived Thursday morning, [Wendy:] Good good. [Derek:] and er they're making recordings. They've got in touch with the three people that they've got at [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] schools and they'll They probably won't manage anything in the next week because the schools are going on holiday at [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] the end of the week, [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] but they will be... quite happy to make recordings er and so that's three different schools in the west of Scotland. [Wendy:] Excellent.... [Clare:] When's the first consignment of Scottish tapes? [Derek:] Erm... don't know.... Don't know when they're coming. But... [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] anyway, erm... there will be tapes on the way and they're consulting with other people too,... so. [clapping] [Wendy:] Right. When... Actually I should probably mention this. When tapes come into me I have a listen to the beginning and end of them all to sort of see what sort of quality they are [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] erm... and also to try and work out [LAUGHTER] which speakers are which [] [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] so that I can check that against the form and get the form [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] back to people if I have a problem with it. Erm where I find I can't understand the regional accent I'm going to give them back to the person [LAUGHTER] who recorded them [] [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] and say Here, you transcribe this. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] So I've got a feeling you're going to end up transcribing a lot of the north of the border stuff. [Derek:] I don't think so. But anyway. [Wendy:] Well. [Derek:] No problem. I can do that. [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] It's only four hundred thousand words. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] The younger the people get, I find that not wanting to be erm... whatever, regionalist or anything like that, [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] but I find that Or ageist, but the younger people get the more problem I have with their accents. [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm and the further west in Scotland and the younger they get the [LAUGHTER] more problem I have with their accents []. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. Right. [Wendy:] I don't know why this should be. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Erm but it's true. [] [Clare:] I mean one of getting round that is erm for Derek and I to transcribe them because then it's fairly easy for me to turn round and say Listen to this. What did he [LAUGHTER] say []? [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] [whispering] Yes. [] [Clare:] So that'll be [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] One way of working that. [David:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm I mean that sounds seems quite reasonable to me. Erm it also means that in the case of tapes that have come from your parents you're more likely to know one or two of the speakers and therefore have a less difficult time sorting out which one of these twelve [Derek:] Actually [Wendy:] speakers is... this [Derek:] I [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] person on the list []. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] I I can think of a I can think of a few th of them who are going to be completely incomprehensible [LAUGHTER] to you []. [Wendy:] Good. You can have all of those. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] And welcome. We don't mind at all.. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [sigh] [Wendy:] Erm yeah. I mean er... I'll I'll still need them to come to me for er entering [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] into the books and everything [Clare:] Yeah. [Derek:] No problem. [Wendy:] but then you can have them back. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm I don't know if I gave you, and if I didn't I need to,... the things that I've called recordings logs, that are different than meeting logs. [Derek:] Yes. You [Wendy:] Can you get people to fill Or f do yourself fill those in rather than the meeting logs? [Derek:] Right. I was I was [Wendy:] Because [Derek:] filling up my supply of each. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] Erm... unless it's actually a meeting... that you're recording use the other things cos they're just they've got bigger spaces for writing down what people's first words were and stuff like that, [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] erm and I just find them easier to cope with. I'm gonna check with... whether we actually need to fill in a meeting log for every recording situation, [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] or whether some kind of statement about who's there and what they're doing is enough. [Derek:] Mhm. [Wendy:] Cos I think these meeting logs are a pain in the neck cos they've got... the you know the boxes are about this big and you need to be a spider to write in them. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] And a small one at that. Erm... and th the bit for notes isn't [Derek:] And we wouldn't want any spiders around would we? [Wendy:] big enough. No we wouldn't want any spiders around. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] Moving swiftly along. [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] That's speciesist that is. [Wendy:] Pardon? Specieism. [Clare:] Yes. [Derek:] Speciesist. [Wendy:] Speciesist. [Derek:] You're discriminating [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] against them on the grounds that they're they're crawly little things. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] That they're th No,th I'm not I'm discriminating o against them on the grounds that they have legs that do that. That's what I I've thought about it for a long [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] time and that's what I find horrific about spiders, crabs, all most crustacea in fact. Erm yellow centipedes,... erm [David:] [cough]. [Wendy:] And if anybody comes up behind me and does that I scream and elbow. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] It's true. [] [LAUGHTER]. Empirically tested. Just ask Spike. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] All those present [] have been warned. [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. So don't bother. [] Erm... Erm erm erm.... I seemed to have worked my way down to the bottom of my list. Erm... [David:] Congratulations. [Wendy:] Thank you.... [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] It wasn't a very full list cos erm []... er it didn't occur to me until about seven o'clock this evening that I had to go out quite soon and then I just ran around frantically doing things. [Derek:] You thought it was still six didn't you? [Wendy:] W erm no really. Well... it was still light so it hadn't di I didn't really realize how late it was getting. Er I was still slobbing around in my dressing-gown and you know yesterday's clothes and so I I I thought I'd better... get up and do stuff. [sniff]. Erm... yeah. So I'm I'm a bit unprepared, but that's everything I think that I have to say. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Can we go through... Unless anybody else has anything to say?... [Clare:] No. [Wendy:] Right. Can we go through erm... what we're going to do this week so I can make a note of it so I'll know this week, rather than last week when I didn't so I didn't.... Now does anybody know [Derek:] . [Wendy:] shorthand? [Clare:] [sigh] Not that anybody else but myself could read back. [Wendy:] Er I don't know shorthand but I thought y somebody who did know [LAUGHTER] shorthand would probably have a less hard time than I do writing down notes []. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Erm but it probably wouldn't [] make much difference. Erm [Clare:] I I've learnt the Pitman school but to a basic level and a long time ago and a lot of it is now forgotten. [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Fine. [LAUGHTER] Not a problem. []... [sniff] Erm... okay. What are we gonna do this week? I'll write it down your names. [David:] . [Wendy:] Underneath them I'll write down what to do. [Derek:] Oh. [David:] You don't need one for me. [Derek:] Another another point. [Wendy:] Don't I? Oh. No, you're you're off limits this week aren't you? [Derek:] Another point about erm... what we did this week, we went down to the Guildhall. [David:] I mentioned that. [Derek:] . Yes. [Wendy:] Yeah. David was saying. [Clare:] Mhm. [Derek:] Right. [cough] [Clare:] This week. Erm after my meeting on Monday I shall hopefully start recording at B R.... And I will... continue to pursue trying to get a contact with Clive in Liverpool... and... probably have the tape recorder and tapes returned from my father. [Wendy:] Right. [Clare:] Which I will then turn around and put to good use,... most probably in Manchester. If you can... let me know who you want me to write to or give me a source book to start [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] writing letters from I will also start on the letter writing for you. [Wendy:] Okay. [Clare:] And I will go into the travel agents in town.... [Derek:] Thomas Cook's. [Clare:] Thomas Cook. [Derek:] That's the these people who apparently do con consultations on [Wendy:] Where are they? [Derek:] individual holidays. [Wendy:] Are they the ones that are [Derek:] They're right se behind beside the Royal Bank on the corner. [Wendy:] The Royal Bank. Yeah. Thought so. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. And I will see if I can get erm a designer interview holiday consultation taped from them. [Wendy:] Right. Okay.... Do they have with an E or not? Cook. [Clare:] Er no, without. [Derek:] Er no, Cook. There's no E there. [Wendy:] Okay.... It looks wrong, somehow. Doesn't matter. I don't care. [Derek:] That's the way they do it. [Wendy:] how they spell their name.... [Derek:] Er [Wendy:] What are you going to do this week? [Derek:] Transcription work. [Wendy:] We hope. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Erm... we hope, yes. [Wendy:] Probably not till till towards the end of the week. Erm... [tut]... [Derek:] [sigh] [Wendy:] Whatever. Erm... I've still got [Derek:] Make suggestions for people I can go out and hassle in the first couple of days of the week. Because I [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Until the Conference Office say yea or nay, there's nothing I can do literally there. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Until... any of the other ones bear fruit, because the Guildhall I can't get anything on the elections till April the sixth, erm I can't get anything from the Scottish tapes until they start arriving, erm whatever. So all my sources are in progress but [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] nothing's about to turn up. So suggest something and I can go some... How about getting some tapes not in North Yorkshire perhaps? [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Driving over to Leeds or something if we if there's anybody we can contact over there?... [Wendy:] Erm it's making the initial contacts that's the problem. Erm... I'm I'm in two minds as to whether it's best to always write first or to to phone first whenever possible. I think it's probably best... er probably good to phone first but I'm... erm worried about phone bills,... [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] and how to deal them. Phone calls made from non-local phone calls In fact local c phone calls as well made from my house can be made directly onto my business... Mercury account. Erm... I've got a Mercury account at home and I've got it set up so that after the Mercury number you type in a user code, and one of my user codes is for the business. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] So. I'm quite amenable to people coming over and using my phone... for making business-related phone calls. Erm... Particularly [Derek:] Alright then. [Wendy:] if those people also supply me with never-ending cups of tea and coffee while they're there. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Cos that's what I live on during the day is never-ending supplies of tea and coffee. [Derek:] Well... I don't have any problem with going out. How about I could I could go down and just go to some places in Hull on spec. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Go into the University and see if there're there are any conferences there that I can ask. Because that's not something we want to go through their Conference Office for if we only want to do... a meeting, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] something we'd just ask the people who are organizing the conference. Erm I could go out to Harrogate and see if there's anything on the Conference Centre there, [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] or phone the Conference Centre. [Wendy:] The the thing is Yeah, I mean anything... Rather than travelling, telephone, because you have to run up an awful lot of telephone calls before it's worth driving over and doing it [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] in person. And the the time involved in driving over and then wandering around the city... is. [Derek:] Yes but if I'm doing nothing else Monday. [Wendy:] Erm... [Derek:] You know. [Wendy:] Yeah but if you could be doing other things, like phoning... [Derek:] Yeah.... Fair enough. [Wendy:] F forty places [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] rather than Or phoning twenty places [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] rather than visiting three. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm... I I was suggesting to Clare and David that wherever we do know people who don't live in this region we could get those people to, at my expense, send us a copy of their local Thompson Directory,... which is an excellent resource for getting in touch with local businesses and other organizations. But I mean it's a subset of the things that appear in Yellow Pages and also contains all the postcodes we're ever going to need to to use. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] So anyone that anybody knows who lives anywhere, [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] get them to send their local [LAUGHTER] Thompson []. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm... and I'll... refund the cost. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] I mean I d I dunno actually. Is it possible to phone I imagine it's possible to phone B T and get them to send... [David:] Erm [Wendy:] Directories. [David:] Yes. It is possible. [Wendy:] Who does Thompsons? Is it B T? [David:] Erm no. [Derek:] No. [David:] I think Thompsons is. [Derek:] Thompsons. [David:] But [Wendy:] Oh. [Clare:] Yes, Thompsons are separate. [David:] there'll be a Thompsons [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] . Erm you can There's a list at the back of... the Yellow Pages on on Yellow Pages and phone books. [Wendy:] For for f Yellow Pages. Yeah. [David:] Erm they're all up in the library. I don't know if the Thompsons are in the library. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] They might be. [Wendy:] But it it's inconvenient to go to the library, write down lots of addresses and then come away again. I'd like to actually have them on hand. [David:] [tut] Erm you can't afford them. [Wendy:] I can't afford Yellow Pageses or phone books, but Thompsons might be a different matter. They might be cheaper cos [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] they're smaller. [David:] Erm but there's more of them. [Wendy:] Also Well... here's another thing. Anybody we know, can we get them to send last year's Yellow Pages and Thompsons, which won't [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] cost them anything except for postage and and won't therefore cost us anything but postage? [Clare:] Yeah. [David:] That's. [Wendy:] That's a good idea actually. Let's do that. [David:] . [Clare:] Yeah. Yeah. [Wendy:] Erm... [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] We don't really need to confer on who we're asking because I I'm I don't think [Derek:] If we get duplicate last year's Yellow Pages it's going to be such a problem. I mean we'll have a spare one, yes. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Oh yeah! I mean what a hassle. We'll have to take them down the recycling. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Right. Okay. [Wendy:] You know. Whoa! Erm... [Derek:] In that case I can spend Monday h er making phone calls [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] ... er around probably West Yorkshire. I'll take down numbers I'll go to the library and take down num phone numbers and call places in the afternoon. And I [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] can hassle anybody who still around for phone directories and so on. [Wendy:] Mm. Do you have a touch-tone... phone here?... [Derek:] Yeah. [Clare:] . [Derek:] Beep-beep-beep-beep-beep. [Wendy:] It it's actually bee-bee-bee-bee-beep? In that case I can give you my Mercury my business Mercury number and you can make phone calls on the company from here. But only if I really really trust you. [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Us. [] [David:] Yeah. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Who you m buy a used car from this man? [] [Wendy:] I do get a fully itemized bill. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] And I've I'm I have no compunctions, [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] S as Spike knows, about phoning places that I where I don't recognize the [LAUGHTER] number and asking them who the fuck they are and when he called them []. [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] . [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Well the only one that you have to worry about with me is if it it's a twenty-five-minute [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] O eight nine eight []. [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] er twenty-five-minute call to the States or something. [Clare:] Transatlantic [LAUGHTER] yeah []. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Just don't do it on my account. [] [Clare:] Erm [Derek:] Oh it's alright, they don't cost too much. [Clare:] Would that apply to me as well? [David:] What? [Clare:] Because there's [Wendy:] Have you got a touch-tone phone? [Clare:] No, but I was thinking of using this one here. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Because there's a few sort of non-local calls I could make to get [Wendy:] Yeah.... [Clare:] phone directories sent. [Wendy:] Business calls, do it on the Mercury account. I mean Yeah I'll I'll give you the... [whispering] er no I don't think... Mercury account []. That's probably more sensible than having people come round to use my phone as well. Erm... it doesn't depend on me being in.... [David:] Erm... erm I did and try and use [Derek:] . [Wendy:] I don't know it. I'll have to [Derek:] Ah. Right. [Wendy:] go home and find it out. [David:] Erm did try and erm use it when I first rang Margaret, [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] er but I couldn't get it to work. [Wendy:] It was a local call. [David:] Aha. [Wendy:] You need to put the S T D code in for a local call. [David:] Oh right. That would explain it. [Wendy:] You press the Mercury button, wait for it to finish then O nine O four boo-boo-boo-boom. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] It'll Mercury are only supposed to be for non-local calls. [David:] Ah. Right. [Wendy:] But in fact it doesn't cost any more to [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] erm... dial the local S T D code and then use that call d do the call on the S T D code. [David:] Right. [Wendy:] And then it appears on the Mercury bill. [sniff] [David:] Ah. [Clare:] as if by magic. [Wendy:] So as if by magic. Puff! There it is! [LAUGHTER]. [David:] Yes. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] You wouldn't believe [] the things that turn up on our bill. You really wouldn't. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] I didn't when I first saw it. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Spike Spike didn't... Spike didn't know why it wouldn't work. [Wendy:] Erm... right, well, that's why. [David:] Right. Fair enough. [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] Right. Since I've got to write to Captain Andrew anyway I will get hold of... addresses of people er like Sam in Warwickshire. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] a useful contact. [Wendy:] Where is Captain Andrew? [Derek:] War er C Coventry. [David:] Coventry. [Wendy:] He also will therefore be a [LAUGHTER] useful contact []. [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm [LAUGHTER] if you've lost your. [Derek:] You want his voice on tape? [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Not necessarily. But but he knows people I'm sure. [David:] Also he's in the process of setting up a business. [Wendy:] He is in fact. [Derek:] He is. [Wendy:] Any any part of that is a legitimate... erm [Clare:] Recording scenario. [Wendy:] You know anything anything [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] where he talks to people about setting up his business is a legitimate thing to record. [Derek:] And since he's the one initiating the meetings all we have to do is get his consent to erm the her his s signature, and the other people's sort of [Wendy:] Mm. And his verb [tape change] [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Erm. Alright. [Derek:] Some time has passed, for the benefit of the tape. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Thank you. Erm... er so far my list of what we're going to do this week includes... for Derek erm fi tracking down non-local copies of Yellow Pages by phoning people and hassling people who are about to go home. [Derek:] Right. Erm I shall phone the Harrogate Conference Centre since they have a big and er quite famous conference centre.... If I can get hold of the... erm... the name If I can remember the name. There is a conference centre somewhere out in the wilds of nowhere in Derbyshire which I drove past coming back from Buxton. [Wendy:] If you phone in t erm... the Talking Yellow Pages and say I need a conference centre in Derbyshire, they'll probably tell you that one. [Derek:] Talking Yellow Pages? [Wendy:] Yeah, it's erm it's not one nine two, it's it's something different. Erm you can phone them up and ask them for a Yellow Pages listing and they and they'll give at random a listing from the Yellow Pages in whatever area you ask for. You can't ask for a specific... taxi company or [Derek:] Ah right, okay. [Wendy:] anything like that, but you can say Can you just tell me the name of two taxis? the number of two taxi companies in this area? and they will. [Derek:] Or you or you could ask for the the number of all the conference centres in [Wendy:] I want a I want a remote conference centre in Derbyshire please. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] One that's not in a town. [Derek:] Talking I shall try the Talking Yellow Pages. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] It it it really was, it was the middle of nowhere and we drove by it and... It's a conference c Conference centre? Er [LAUGHTER] and But that would be conference material from Derbyshire, if we could [speaker001:] Yeah. [Derek:] could get that. [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] And since we don't seem to have any recordings yet from Derbyshire. [Wendy:] No. Is erm... Where's Doncaster? What county is Doncaster in? [Derek:] Doncaster's South Yorkshire. [Wendy:] Is it? [whispering] Right. Okay. I have a friend in Doncaster. But erm... Yeah I don't know anybody in Derbyshire. Nobody lives there do they? [] [Derek:] Er lots of people live in the Peak District. [Clare:] B R have [Wendy:] Yeah but nobody we know. [Clare:] [cough] [David:] Cumbria. [Clare:] The... section of B R that I work for [Derek:] Dave. [Clare:] most directly and [David:] And.... [Wendy:] I'm sorry, say again? [Clare:] The... particular section of B R [Wendy:] Yes. [Clare:] that I work for erm being the Q S has its main headquarters in Derbyshire, so it's just possible I may be able to get some business contacts in Derbyshire. [Wendy:] That would be good. [Clare:] I'll see what I can do. [Wendy:] That would be very good. [Derek:] I can hassle for business contacts in these areas at conferences as soon as I get to a conference. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] Basically any conference lets us gets get lots more business contacts. [Wendy:] Right. I think I'll I'll not wait for Er if nothing comes in the post tomorrow I won't wait for the conference centre to get in touch with me, I'll write to them tomorrow and drop it in. [Derek:] How about ph how about phoning them? Oh you'll dro If you write to i If you write to them and drop it in that's fine then. [Wendy:] Mm. Yeah. [Derek:] Cos if [Wendy:] I since you've already contacted them in person, erm phoning them's not going to you know reassure them that we're a bona fide company [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] erm in quite the way that sending them a letter on headed notepaper is. [Derek:] Okay. [cough]. [Clare:] Plus the fact you don't have a n er contact name so it's going to be more difficult to get connected to anyone. [Wendy:] Yes. Yes I'll just end up talking to a secretary whereas something [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] will be plonked on somebody's [Derek:] Well [Wendy:] desk at some point if I write. [Derek:] if you end up going to the office and it's the same layout as it it it was and the same people there, [Wendy:] Aha. [Derek:] it was the secretary on There was only the one secretary in the office when I went in but there are two desks, one on the left and one on the right, and it's the one at the one on the right. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] That was who was dealing with... when I [Wendy:] Okay. [Derek:] went in there. [Wendy:] Okey-doke. Erm. [Derek:] I shall also write to the Captain for addresses and and businesses and if he can help us and so forth.... [Wendy:] Right. Are you going to erm... telephone the Hull Conference Centre as well? [Derek:] Erm I don't know if there's a conference centre but there's a university. [Wendy:] .... [Derek:] I'll phone Hull Uni then. [Wendy:] I used to have a friend at Hull University but we're doing this a year too late. He's graduated. [sniff]... Ah!... My ex head of department's wife used to teach at Hull University. [Derek:] We're not getting into tenuous connections here, but! [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] No no, I mean Well okay. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Er she's also somebody in my department so [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] used to teach there and she'd probably know the right person to write to. Or to telephone. I'll ask her and then get back to one of you two to actually do the letter contact. [David:] Erm Nick's mother erm is in the Psychology Department at Nottingham. [speaker001:] . [Wendy:] Little Nick? [David:] Yes. [Clare:] Nick. [Derek:] . [Wendy:] I've never heard his surname, he's just little Nick as far as I'm concerned. [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Little Nick. Erm... [Derek:] I'll have to phone Nick tonight to see if the Captain has a phone number now rather than just an address cos if I can phone him it'll be a lot easier. [Clare:] Have you spoken to Whit about the? [Derek:] Yes. [Clare:] Is it this week or next week? [Derek:] I s it's next week cos he's home this week. [David:] Yes. [Derek:] Erm if the message got passed [Clare:] Yes. [Derek:] on... erm [Wendy:] I mentioned it to him last week er last night actually. [Derek:] Yes. Erm he he he does re remember as far as I I can tell. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] But er basically the message didn't get passed on to him when I left it er... the last time and he then did the tour Monday not knowing that we could have been recording it because [Wendy:] Ah. [Derek:] nobody'd told him, and then when I got in touch with him... erm he said no nobody had told him about it. So... And he's doing one er not tomorrow but in a week's time and will be perfectly happy to record it. [Wendy:] Good. Good good. [Derek:] So... [Wendy:] Erm [Derek:] I'll go along and be Well actually I'll get him to do that and instead of being bored about the for forty five minutes or whatever I [Wendy:] You can be bored about it when you type the tape. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Yeah. But I I... that way I only have to hear it once. [Wendy:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Er and I can I can go and er... I can [Clare:] Wendy! [David:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] I can go round [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I just spent three hours last night talking to him and I've I've had enough for the week that's all. [] [LAUGHTER] [David:] I can't do it now, I've already done the tour. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] I'm sorry, [] I I took the cowards's option last night. Instead of being lured up to Whit's room with you and erm [LAUGHTER] other people [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] last night I said Derek Let's go home []. [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. Well it was okay cos Aaron was there, but Whit and Aaron had a bit of a er an argument at one point, [Derek:] Oh. [Wendy:] and it was a pain cos [Derek:] When doesn't Whit have an argument? What were [Wendy:] Well [Derek:] they arguing about this time? [Wendy:] Well they were being Whit was being unpleasant about Aaron, which is calls made from non-local phone calls In fact local c phone calls as Whit t to you know to make comments [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] about his appearance or whatever. But it was because Aaron said a mildly humorous comment about somebody in one of Whit's photos who turned out to be one of Whit's very good friends.... And er... Well so what? [LAUGHTER] She does look strange cos she's got bright white hair and purple lipstick on. [] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Oh right. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Sorry, but it's true! [] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Erm... yeah. [] That's getting off the subject a bit but never mind. [Derek:] Okay. Anyway yes, Whit's going to us at some stage and I will wander round town while he's doing his talk and then transcribe it [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] so I only have to once. [Wendy:] Can erm one of you... look in this week's Advertiser, and any sort of... talks and things that are on this week if they've got a phone number to contact, give them a buzz and see if they mind us recording it. [Clare:] Derek? [Wendy:] There are some talks happening this week. Is it It's the Advertiser that have the What's On section. [Derek:] That was it. [Wendy:] Erm... [Derek:] Unfortunately that's last week's. I'll check our our this week's ones cos they'll be lying around. [Wendy:] Right. Okey-doke. [David:] Erm... [Derek:] Excuse me while I find our papers. [David:] It's... [Wendy:] Meanwhile. [David:] no good for me because I'm... working in the evening but Minster F M has a a list of What's On that night every night. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] Erm I don't know when They they they play it about... quarter past er no about quarter to seven [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] and then they I think they play it earlier than that as well. That's. Erm [Wendy:] It's best to... find them ahead of time because that gives us a chance to contact them beforehand. [Clare:] Yes. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] I think it's unfair to anybody to show up with a tape recorder and ask them on the spot cos it puts them on the spot. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm I don't like putting people on the spot if I can possibly [David:] No. [Wendy:] avoid it cos you know you lose goodwill that way. Erm... [David:] Erm but [Wendy:] But the Advertiser does have quite a lot of What's Onies. What's Onies? What the hell's a What's Ony? [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm [LAUGHTER]. [David:] Sorry. Just for the record, [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] is that I E S or I S? [Wendy:] I have not the [LAUGHTER] remotest idea David []. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I'm so sorry. [] [LAUGHTER]. It's probably E S actually cos it was it was me trying trying to find a plural for [David:] Ah. [Wendy:] What's On.. [Derek:] I I th I thought I thought it was I S actually from the way you said it the first time, but that was just a guess.... [Clare:] No comment. [Derek:] Not a guess it's [Wendy:] Well how do you say erm the plural of bus? [Clare:] Buses. [Wendy:] Buses, yeah. Sounds like an I S. [Derek:] Busi. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] Octopodes. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Octopodes, [] yes. It's the correct plural of octopus. Eddie found it out one time. [Wendy:] It thought it was octopi. You just went past it. [Derek:] I did? [Wendy:] Yeah. [David:] Yes. You just did it again. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. It's on a left-hand page,... as you're looking at it. [Derek:] [reading] Minster F M.... Saturday T V. Sponsored by. [] [Wendy:] No, you you [Derek:] [reading] What's On. [] [Wendy:] There you go. [Derek:] That's right. Okay. We've missed Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday haven't we? [Wendy:] Yes. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] But we've got Monday Tuesday and Wednesday [Derek:] Monday [Wendy:] this week. [Derek:] [reading] Quartermains Terms, Grand Opera House. [] Er [reading] York Healing Group meet at the Unitarian Church Saint Saviours Gate []. [Wendy:] That would be.... [Clare:] Interesting. [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Oh w are there phone numbers for any of these? [Derek:] Er nope. Hang on. [Wendy:] Well they're probably in the in the phone book right? [David:] There are addresses for them. [Derek:] None of none of none of those have phone numbers but all of them have some sort of address. [reading] Salvation Army Home League, Gillygate. [] [Wendy:] What's one of those? [Clare:] Don't know. [Derek:] [reading] Ouse Harmony Barbershop Chorus [reading+laughing] practice night [] Go on. Can we get singing? [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] No. [Wendy:] No. It's not a lot of use is it really? [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] It's a bit scripted. [Wendy:] . [Derek:] [reading] Contemporary and creative dance. Sequence dancing. Callanetics.... York Buthal Kan Karate Club. [] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [Derek:] [reading] Body Conditioning Stamina and self-defence training. [] [Wendy:] Oh yeah, an hour of [grunts]. [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] Ai! [Wendy:] How do you spell [grunts]? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [reading] Low impact aerobics. [] What the heck [LAUGHTER] are low impact [] [David:] That's Step. [Wendy:] That's where you don't jump around. [David:] That's Step probably. [Wendy:] You walk around stepping. Yeah. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] It it's where you don't have to wear body armour. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] Boom! [LAUGHTER] High impact aerobics. [] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] It's [Wendy:] No it's it's... [Derek:] it's a different name for Karate. [] [Wendy:] It's aerobics for fat people, [David:] Ah. [Wendy:] cos it's very bad for fat people to jump up and down, erm [David:] Jump around, yeah [Wendy:] because we have an awful problem with impact when we [LAUGHTER] land again []. [Derek:] [reading] New breed of. [] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I have terrible trouble with my feet. [] [Derek:] . [David:] That's a play. [Derek:] Right. [reading] High Tech History, A R C Saint Saviourgate. [] [Wendy:] Get that one! [Clare:] Yes. [Wendy:] The A R C. Yeah. Get that. That that'll be a talk. Also I noticed there was something by Martin. A talk From Rags to Riches. [Derek:] Er... Neal. [Wendy:] Neal, yeah. [Derek:] [reading] Memories of a Removal Man by Neal, [Wendy:] Yeah! [Derek:] York After Eight Club, Enterprises seventeen [Wendy:] That'll be perfect. [Derek:] Lane. [] I know where is. [Wendy:] Yeah are in the phone book as well. [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Under G for. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [] [Wendy:] And he probably he's he's quite a sort of er He supports local [Derek:] So Tuesday evening's gonna be busy. [Wendy:] young businesses and things like that, so [Clare:] Oh no problem then. [Wendy:] he he'd probably be quite [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] happy about it. [Derek:] [reading] York C V S Training Workshops. [] Erm [reading] Stop Smoking Group, Clifton Health Centre []. [Wendy:] If they agreed that would probably be good. [Derek:] [reading] Ted Heath Music Appreciation Society. [] [Wendy:] I worried about that when I read it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [reading] Balan [] Oh Wow! I wonder what this one's gonna be. [reading] Balance and Harmony, Priory Street Centre. [] [LAUGHTER]. That's all it says. [Wendy:] Om. [Clare:] It's probably [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Two hours [] of going Om. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] It's not going to be interesting. [] [Clare:] be a meditation group. [Wendy:] Yeah. [David:] Quite easy to transcribe. [Clare:] Which wouldn't be easy to... Though Remember y it it's three Os and two Ms because it's Om... Om. [Derek:] Om. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Om. [Clare:] Because the Ms [Derek:] Or in the case of some movies Om [higher tone]. [LAUGHTER]. [David:] I'm not that. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] You you didn't join in the harmony. [] Erm from Dark Crystal [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] where they come up and Om in harmony [Wendy:] Yes. [Derek:] and it's quite spectacularly silly. [Wendy:] Yes. I know. Er er it's ac It occurred to me that what what you were about to say cos Whit... [David:] Om. [Wendy:] spent a long time showing me his Dark Crystal [Clare:] Om. [Wendy:] book last night. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Er [reading] Vale of York Conservation Volunteers. [] But that's going to be outdoors. Erm... er. [Wendy:] And we wouldn't want to get the tape recorders wet would we? [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. No boys and girls. [Wendy:] Cos it's summertime now [Derek:] Volleyball. [Wendy:] so it's gonna piss it down any minute, right? It's now B S T. [Derek:] The the the wettest month in York is April. [Wendy:] Well, whoopee! [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Yeah we're about due for another flood. I like it when when wh it floods in town and you can go down and watch foreigners standing looking at the roofs of their cars [LAUGHTER] floating down the Ouse and you think Yeah! [] [LAUGHTER]. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] You're cruel sometimes. [] [David:] I was very [Wendy:] Yeah, I just... Like cashing in on other people's misery. [Derek:] Oh. Ooh. [reading] Wednesday. Namibia. A Desert Country by the Sea. A talk by Doctor Tom for British Heart Foundation. [] [Wendy:] Sounds good. [Derek:] [reading] Folk Hall, New Earswick. [] [Wendy:] Well look, I mean why don't I leave it to you to get in contact with [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] the people in the Advertiser whether by having to go there or by [Derek:] . [Wendy:] phoning them up. I imagine most of these pl most of these places, if they're organizations, they'll have a phone number in the book. [Derek:] Yeah. [Clare:] Yes. They do. [Derek:] We've got... [David:] . [Wendy:] Erm but definitely try [Derek:] Oh! [Wendy:] and get the one at. [Derek:] [reading] Centre for Housing Policy Seminar, Social Research Unit, Seminar Room, Rowntree Foundation Building. [] [Wendy:] Yeah. Yeah. [Derek:] Erm... [Wendy:] I mean we could get all of our tal you know all of our sort of public educational informative talks this week if all of those pan out couldn't we? [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Mm. [Wendy:] For th for the York area. [Derek:] I I I wonder about these two. [Wendy:] What? [Derek:] [reading] York Twenties and Thirties Social and Activity Club weekly meeting, [] and [Clare:] No, you're not going. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] And [reading] New! York Eighteen Plus Group. [] [LAUGHTER] [Clare:] No, you're not going! [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Derek:] Oh dear! [Clare:] Oh dear. [Wendy:] Now why's that one opened up? Is that because fuck-a-fresher week only comes round once a year? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] People are getting desperate at this time of year. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] Could be. [] [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I wonder sometimes. [] [Derek:] Oh dear. Right. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] Those two are [LAUGHTER] []. [Wendy:] Well I'll leave that to you, erm and if they need letters written or need to [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] phone me, I'm in tomorrow and Tuesday all day. [Derek:] Yeah. There aren't [Clare:] Probably it may be easier if I actually do those letters if they want letters. [Wendy:] Yeah. [Clare:] Because Derek will be able to say to me Look,... do a letter to here. [Wendy:] Right. [Derek:] Yeah. Well I I'll phone them up. [Wendy:] When are you going to be about?... Erm... are you going to be at home at all tomorrow or here at all tomorrow?? [Clare:] Erm I'm usually here first thing in the morning and... [Wendy:] What's first thing?. [Clare:] You know, before nine o'clock. [Wendy:] . [Clare:] That kind of first thing. [Wendy:] Yeah I I usually... find myself having just deposited Spike at the station at about a quarter past nine and then I'm in town and er able to do things in town. But erm cos [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] I'll I'll get my a disk to you and some [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] notepaper and stuff. [Clare:] Right. [Derek:] . [Clare:] Actually erm [Wendy:] But I should probably do that when I can come and see you and show you where it [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] needs to sit in the printer and things like that erm so you don't... you know... [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] end up fiddling with for hours on end to... work out. [Clare:] Okay. I I will be home erm I'll be home at my house as opposed to here erm tomorrow afternoon as from about four o'clock I would imagine. [Wendy:] Right. You're on... Road. [Derek:] Lane. [Clare:] Lane. [Wendy:] Lane? [Clare:] I live literally on the corner as you go out. [Wendy:] That's very convenient isn't it? [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] It it's the house right on the the left-hand corner just there are you go out. [Wendy:] What's I can't picture it, so what's the address? [Clare:] It's thirty eight Lane. [Wendy:] [whispering] Thirty eight Lane. [] Well why don't I pop round tomorrow? [Clare:] Sure thing. [Wendy:] At the end of If I w wait until the end of the business day, so [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] around five or so. Er [Clare:] Yeah.... Between four and five you will definitely find me indoors, and I will be at home. [Wendy:] Right. Okay. Well if I say I'll come at five, cos that gives me a chance to do all the sort of phoning [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] of businesses. [Clare:] Great. [Derek:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm... Okey-doke. [Derek:] [whispering] []. [Clare:] And if you can remember to bring me some headed notepaper as well, so [Wendy:] Th er I haven't actually Yeah I'll bring you some headed notepaper but you shouldn't actually need it [cough] except if people want This person is doing this on behalf of. [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] Erm all the other stuff I've just got a little header set up in the file on [Clare:] Right. [Wendy:] on a template. [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] The you know the the little header. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] I'm going to have some headed notepaper as soon as I can get the laser printer printing [LAUGHTER] out things that I tell it to [] rather than printing out Courier Ten. [sigh] I'm having a bit of trouble with Spike's laser printer at work cos it's not a real... It it says it's a Hewlett-Packard Two Plus but it ain't. [David:] Oh. [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] So It's actually a Panasonic something and I haven't got the printer driver for it.... [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] And I can't phone up WordPerfect Corp and say... [David:] Mm. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Can I buy a printer driver for this? because they'll say What's your registration number? [Clare:] they'll say What's your registration number? [Wendy:] and I'll say I haven't got one yet because I can't afford to buy er a non-pirate copy of WordPerfect [LAUGHTER] until next month. Sorry. [] [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. Mm. [Wendy:] But er anyone who feels like making a headed notepaper and getting it laser printed is welcome so to do. [Derek:] Alright. [David:] Well erm [Derek:] Well when we've got a company logo we should do that. [Wendy:] I've got a company logo. It looks like this. [Clare:] There is a company lob go. [Wendy:] It's dead pretty. [Clare:] Lobo? [Wendy:] Here we go. [Derek:] Company lobo.. [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Lobo, yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Let's get one of those. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Sometimes I feel I could do with one. [speaker001:] . [Derek:] Yes. [David:] Aha.. [Clare:] Mm. [Derek:] Oh it [Clare:] Lovely. [Derek:] it's just that it's the... [Wendy:] [whispering] It looks sort of [David:] Erm... what we really need er. Erm... [Derek:] But there there's no [David:] The problem is we can't use the can't use the CompServe one.... [Derek:] Er you could... you could print one off. [David:] Erm... [Wendy:] We'd only need one. [David:] For a start erm the typeface we wanted [Wendy:] It looks something like that. [David:] The type face we wanted isn't on the... the whatsit laser printer. [Wendy:] I'd also like it in shadow [Derek:] . [Wendy:] if at all possible. [David:] Oh, yeah. Er the other thing is [Derek:] So... i i it's a standard you know dinky little thing like y you us you use You know the with their little twirly thing and er the you saw the [Wendy:] Oh no. [Derek:] Productions with their little red triangle and dots thing. [Wendy:] No I think I think the word is quite adequate actually. [Clare:] Yeah. That's great. Y [Derek:] Fine. [David:] the fancy letters the M and the T really need a powerful pack like CorelDraw. [Wendy:] Yeah. [David:] [tut] Which. [Derek:] Eddie! [Wendy:] Eddie! [David:] Erm [Wendy:] Who doesn't have a laser printer. [Derek:] Yes, [David:] No, but [Derek:] but he can do the [Wendy:] But does have CorelDraw. [David:] He does have CorelDraw and erm CorelDraw would use P Postscript... erm which we can import onto the P Cs and dump onto the... self-service laser printer. Erm [Wendy:] And a partridge in a pear tree. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] I assume you understand what all that means. [David:] At the university. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [David:] . [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] I know what it means. [] [Derek:] Erm [David:] Erm [Derek:] Well you've got [David:] But it does require me going to see Eddie. Erm I'd like to see Eddie cos I didn't get to see him this time or last time. [Wendy:] Well we could we could arrange to drive over [Derek:] Well Eddie's going to be [Wendy:] And see Eddie. [Derek:] Yeah Eddie is going to be busy the whole time [David:] Aha. [Derek:] because he's working for his course. He has [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] er course work to do the whole time. But erm... I can phone him er Have you got his number as well? [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Right, okay. Well you could phone him if you [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] wanted. Erm and we could say We we need a company logo done. Cos i if we said we we needed it in order to get some of this money [Wendy:] Yeah. [Derek:] that he's going to get some of then erm that might more of an incentive for him to [Wendy:] Well he might for instance let us come over and and play with CorelDraw for an hour in one evening or something like that. [Derek:] How long do you think it would take you to do that on CorelDraw? [David:] Erm... [Wendy:] Our resident CorelDraw expert. [David:] I could I could do that in an hour. I could d I could do a complete letterhead and just that just that logo as an E P S F that you could stick into WordPerfect. [Wendy:] Mm. [Clare:] Ooh. [David:] Erm... [Derek:] Right. [David:] Ooh. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh. [] [Derek:] Er [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Then all I need to do is to find a printer driver for Spike's laser printer at work [] [David:] Erm well er if it was E P S F you almost certainly could use. [Wendy:] That's true. [David:] . [Wendy:] . Which that isn't. [Derek:] But [Wendy:] But the University have Wor WordPerfect don't they? Online. [Derek:] Yes. The university have WordPerfect [David:] Yes. [Derek:] on the machines. [David:] Yes.... [Derek:] So [Wendy:] This could work couldn't it? [David:] Could work. [Derek:] Yes. [Wendy:] Okay. [Clare:] It's a cunning plan. [Wendy:] It is actually. I have a cunning plan My Lord. [Derek:] Let's get let's just get it on though. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Erm okay let's get Eddie [David:] Erm I I reckon I reckon I could do it in an hour. Erm [Derek:] The thing is if we can get that erm and... We can al we could also put it on business cards is another thing. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] I can go and get a run of business cards done at some point. [Wendy:] Mm. [whispering] Ooh that's something [Derek:] Erm [Wendy:] else I have to do is find a somebody that'll do cheap photocopying. Get like an account with somebody. [] u w [David:] Erm... I mean it really requires a P C and a copy of CorelDraw. Erm... however [Wendy:] I've got A P C. [David:] You have a P C. [Wendy:] Erm But I'd [David:] Er however [Wendy:] I'm running low on [LAUGHTER] memory now []. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [David:] Yes. Erm [Derek:] And I can't yet afford a P C. [David:] Erm [Clare:] Mm. [LAUGHTER]. [David:] I can't afford a new copy of CorelDraw. However I might be able to get erm the copy that I Eddie's copy isn't entirely legal erm and I got it for him. I might be able to get another copy of it. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] How big is it? I mean is it a massive program? I imagine it'd be quite huge. [David:] Erm it it was compressed onto six disks. [Wendy:] [gasp]. [David:] But that includes three I think three disks were full of... erm... [Derek:] Sample stuff isn't it. [David:] clip-art.... Which we don't need. [Wendy:] Mm. Erm... [Derek:] Yeah. [David:] we don't need any clip-art. Erm [Derek:] Which means it's on three disks. [Wendy:] Can it run off the disks? Can it run off [David:] No. [Wendy:] It can't. [David:] Be Because it's compressed. [Wendy:] Because it's compressed. [David:] Erm... [Wendy:] I mean how big [David:] But you don't need to keep it. [Wendy:] Well, how big will that decompress into? [David:] Erm [Derek:] Well the total amount on three disks is what, two meg? [Wendy:] If I have it I'd wanna keep it. [LAUGHTER] You know what I'm like. [] I haven't got two meg of memory. I've got about a meg and a half. And that that fills up my hard disk. [Derek:] Well that [David:] Aha. [Wendy:] So that [David:] Right. [Wendy:] you couldn't use it. It fills it up [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] too much to be used. [Derek:] Right. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] And that's including my on-disk compression thing that that erm [Derek:] Oh dear. [David:] Oh. [Wendy:] fiddles around with [David:] Dear. [Wendy:] all sort of crap. [Derek:] Right. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] Well that Actually that's on my disk cos we did have two the the disk partitioned and it's my half of it that's got a meg and a half left. I don't know what Spike's half's got left. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] But er probably not very much. [Derek:] Knowing Spike not much. [David:] . Knowing Spike it's probably not much. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Derek:] However [David:] Okay. I'll speak to Simon. I'll speak to Simon erm about borrowing his P C at work. [Derek:] Doug has a P C.... [David:] Right. Okay. Doug has a P C. I will [Wendy:] Go get Doug, see what he's Yeah. [David:] Just see how much space he's got. Erm [Wendy:] And tell him it's temporary. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Yeah. And I'll see if I can get a copy of CorelDraw. Because it will be a lot easier than going over to Bradford. Erm [Wendy:] Yeah. Although it would be nice to go over to Bradford. [Clare:] Yes. [David:] And it means that we could make changes if we needed to. [Wendy:] That's true. Yes. Er [David:] Er now, the source was at university which means that he's gone gone home. He's at Court, he might not have gone home.... Not Court, erm... House.... Might not have gone home. [Wendy:] I thought they were planning to er... make term time only. [David:] [whispering]. [] [Clare:] No idea. [David:] I don't know.... Erm... [tut] I'll see Erm I know that Richard has a copy of that and Eddie has a copy. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] [whispering] I'll see... what I can do. [] [Wendy:] Right. [David:] Erm... I will buy a copy of it when I have... access to a P C. Erm... erm [Wendy:] How much is it? [David:] The new one is about two hundred and sixty pounds [Wendy:] [sigh]. [David:] for the big one. Er a hundred and ninety five for the smaller version which doesn't have a. [LAUGHTER] It's a bit excessive.... But it's the best package in existence.... [Clare:] Mm. [Wendy:] They've got it at the Law College and I've I've spent some lunchtimes fiddling with it and thinking I want! I want! I want! [David:] It's very easy to do pretty things with it. [Wendy:] Mm.... Did you did Wasn't it CorelDraw that you guys used to make the erm... badge for our Cop Two Thousand game? [David:] Erm... yes. Eddie did that, yes. [Wendy:] Mm. Yes I've still got that somewhere. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] In fact [LAUGHTER]... I may even have them be in here.. No they're not. [LAUGHTER] They were really good. [] [Derek:] Doug's P C isn't suitable because the monitor's crap. Steer's [speaker001:] . [Derek:] P C would possibly get it. [David:] In what sense is the monitor crap? [Derek:] Er it won't do colour, erm [Wendy:] It doesn't need to. It's a black and white logo. [Derek:] it it it it it's it's it's also got a erm er It's got no mouse... for the computer. It's... Anyway Steer's might get it running, [David:] Okay. [Derek:] er but there're some really nifty ones in the Chemistry Department which cou Doug could borrow for an hour and a half of an evening. [LAUGHTER] So. [David:] I'm not a fr free in the evening. [Wendy:] No. We need it [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] er when Derek when [Derek:] But [Wendy:] David's free. [Derek:] But weekend? [David:] Maybe, yeah.... Yeah. [Derek:] Cos er an hour and a half on a Saturday evening.... We could... manage it. [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] Erm [Derek:] We can get a P C [Wendy:] If we can do this ourselves I'd really like to. [David:] Yes. [Wendy:] Erm cos [David:] Er [Wendy:] I I definitely don't wanna pay... you know somebody [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] like sixty quid just to make a logo that we can do ourselves. [David:] Yeah. Yeah. [sniff] [Derek:] Th there is no w er problem whatsoever about getting a P C which is of suitable capability. [David:] Right. [Derek:] And we just need Doug to be around t... [David:] Well. If... erm [Wendy:] Or if Simon can bring one home from work. [David:] Doug's Doug's machine has reasonably high graphics doesn't it? It's not C G A? [Derek:] Er... no, Doug's machine is crap. Steer's is quite good as far as I can tell.... [David:] Er erm. [Wendy:] I've got a V G A. [LAUGHTER] bloody space. [] I dunno, I could I could back up and remove WordPerfect, which frees about another meg [LAUGHTER] and a half of memory []. [LAUGHTER] [David:] Erm well it it was on It was compressed onto three disks, so I guess it's probably going to be about four meg. [Wendy:] Mm. [Derek:] Well. Doug's machine has four and a half meg free. [David:] It doesn't need a mouse and... it will run on a C G A. Erm [Derek:] Well, I think it might work then.... But I can't guarantee it. [Clare:] Suck it and see as my Grandmother used to say to me. [LAUGHTER]. [David:] Indeed. Okay, [Wendy:] Pardon? [David:] I'll chase that up this week cos it won't take. [Wendy:] What did she use to say? [Clare:] Suck it and see. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [LAUGHTER] Don't tell that to Spike! [] [LAUGHTER]. [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] Bless him! []. Erm... [Clare:] [LAUGHTER]. [Wendy:] Moving quickly on. Erm okay I've got a list of what Derek's gonna do, I've got a list of what Clare's gonna do. Erm... I'm gonna come round tomorrow and bring... [Clare:] Yeah. [Wendy:] some letter writing stuff. [David:] And David's gonna convalesce. [Wendy:] David's gonna convalesce. [David:] David's gonna convalesce. Yes. [Wendy:] Erm... it'll be alright I'm sure. [David:] I know. [Wendy:] You'll be fine. [Clare:] Don't worry. [David:] Erm... [cough]... Yes and I'll chase up... chase up erm a copy of CorelDraw. [Wendy:] Right. And I'm going to get some tapes to Clare and the letter writing stuff, find out about a photocopying account, talk to about more tapes,... transcription notes, erm meeting log forms, demographic transcription, and editing of transcription that we do. [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Gonna write to the University Conference Office,... erm and talk to the head of Sue's school or write to the head of Sue's school. [Derek:] Erm... [Wendy:] That sounds reasonable. [Derek:] You're going to give us your M Mercury account number. [Wendy:] Mercury account number. Oh yes I've got a further list down here. [reading] Mercury account number, talk to Connie... erm who used to be at Hull. And I'll leave the talking to Eddie about CorelDraw for [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] for other people to do. [David:] . [Derek:] Right. Should I phone him up then? [David:] No. Not yet. Not [Wendy:] Wait until David's erm... researched getting a computer in York. [David:] Cos it would be easi it's a lot easier to do it here. [Wendy:] Cos i i it takes it would take an entire [Derek:] Yeah. [Wendy:] evening to go out to Keighley. [David:] Erm [Wendy:] Er in fact it would take an entire evening to go out to Keighley. It's a bloody long way. [David:] Whereas it's... [Derek:] Yeah. [David:] it's a lot more convenient [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [] [David:] could come round here... [Wendy:] Mm. [David:] . [Derek:] Mm. [David:] Erm... I mean it'll take a while to install. [Wendy:] Mm.... [David:] [whispering] Waiting for the program to install. []... [Wendy:] Right. Well I'll leave that with you... to see what what comes out. But I mean in the meantime we're quite happy quite happy carrying with with the silly little letterhead that I've got cos it says [David:] Yeah. [Wendy:] who we are. It's just I'd like something printed. [Derek:] What about the P Cs... in the P C room in Langwith? [David:] Erm [Derek:] All you need's a Vax account. [David:] Yeah but they don't have very much memory in them. They don't have enough memory... in them to load up very much. [Derek:] And you can't put it on c you can't put it [David:] If you if you network them you've got hardly any, and even er unnetworked I think they've only got two meg. [Derek:] But you can't do something clever like dump it all onto... my scratch quota for example? [David:] No. Erm [Derek:] Okay. Ah well.... [David:] No you can run They're big enough to run a diskful of game but not something that takes more than one disk. Erm... er [Derek:] Okay.... [Wendy:] [whispering] Right. [] Are we done? [David:] I think we are. [Wendy:] Right. Shall we go away then? [David:] Mhm. [Derek:] [LAUGHTER] [Wendy:] Erm... [Derek:] Okay. [Wendy:] Okay. [tape change]

[speaker001:] It's a nice thing to know... if you ever... get... tense,... er decide that this is it, I'll throw things Er well I do when I want to throw things at the kitchen and go away and you use aromatherapy. And it's really nice. It's nice for both men and women. And so the men can try it just as much as the girls can as well. [Emmy:] Cos what possibly [Yvonne:] So [Emmy:] we should tell you is that everybody here has suffered from mental health problems. [Yvonne:] Yes. Yes. So I find [Emmy:] So that might be might be our cure. [Yvonne:] Yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] I do find that I have been around everywhere. I mean I used to go to Park and and all and all this. [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Er well before actually. [LAUGHTER] So I've done er community work for a long time. So I do know the different things that do make people feel either a little bit better or might just help them. And the one thing that I over all these years I have found and I've come more and more into is aromatherapy, because it's not... [Emmy:] I'm so worried about [Yvonne:] drug-like, it's doesn't make you tired. Unless you get too relaxed and you're er tired. Erm it doesn't give you a headache it helps to... maybe cure a headache, and it's just nice... smelling and I think if you were just to even with your partners or with friends even just massage somebody's hands... or massage somebody's feet [LAUGHTER] if you don't make them scream while [LAUGHTER] you're doing it. [] It's really nice. So er Body Shop do have a ran they've bought a new range of aromatherapy out, so I can talk about Body Shop's it's easier when I've got it with me here. So... I'm going to tell you what each one does and I'm gonna pass them round. Now do any have any of you tried aromatherapy? Do you know what it is? [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Have you tried it, [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] tried aromatherapy? Aroma is the sense of smell. You all smell things don't you, I mean you know when something smells horrible and you know when something smells nice. And so our sense of smell is very strong. So it soon tells you whether you like it or not. When you breathe something it goes up into... your your brain here, what they call the olfactory bulb up here, and this is right near the memory. And how many of you have smelt... things and you think it turns you back either to when you were a child,... maybe new bread,... a certain flower, [speaker001:] Rowntrees. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Rowntrees yeah. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] You see you see chocolate Ooh I haven't got a chocolate flavoured one here. [] Er oh yes I have,. No I haven't got the Mamatoto. [LAUGHTER] Erm... yes chocolate Has anyo body else think of anything that... [Wendy:] Oh grass clippings. Grass cuttings. [Yvonne:] Grass clippings' ll send your memory [Wendy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] straight back won't it [Wendy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] to sometimes happier times. [Wendy:] Mm. [Celia:] Fresh laundry. [Yvonne:] ... Yes. Yes. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] The the the smell of the the sort of the w [Celia:] Clean sheets. [Yvonne:] Yes. [Celia:] Mm. [Yvonne:] The washing and that. Erm... but it does bring you back with things. I always think of er as I say new bread always brings me back... a lot of memories. So smell is very important, erm... s and this is why it's called aromatherapy. It tries to make you feel better by the sense of smell. You can massage them on your hands, on your temples, or you can use it as a what they call steam inhalation. Put it in a bowl of water... a few bowl of hot water, a few drops, like you do if you got a cold, and just breathe in. So these are... that's how you use aromatherapy. And it help it doesn't say it'll definitely cure you of anything, but it will help maybe to alleviate some problems. You have to have an open mind I always think with these things. Right. Now you can see Body Shop's here, I've got them in a nice box now. They look better They all used to be one colour before but we've now extended the range... and so they've put them in different colour bottles. Now the red range at the top here is all the oils to make you relax.... And all the oils at the bottom the blue ones are to make you refreshed, happy, revived, we hope. So if you ever go in and you want to have a oil that relaxes you, you look at all the red ones. Again, you must have one that you like the smell of. Also with essential oils, they come from plants, leaves,... twigs, roots, er parts of flowers and plants. If you were to use essential oil neat, that's the little drops of oil, it's too strong and it will h Well it won't harm you but it won't it might set up irritations. You must always mix it with an oil. And if you went say to 's where they sell essential oils, theirs are pure oils. You must always buy what they call a carrier oil to help mix the oils. Now ours, we've helped you by already mixing it, so ours have got three percent of essential oil to a carrier oil, which in our case happens to be grapes erm grapeseed oil, which is a very light carrier oil. So... I'll start with the first one and I'll pass it round and just... put either the relaxing on one hand and the reviving on the other and you'll have one hand relaxed the other one [LAUGHTER] doing this []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] So and see just get to like the smell. See which one you like the smell of as I pass them round. Now the first one is camomile. Have any of you ever been on a camomile lawn? [speaker001:] Tea. [Celia:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Or camomile tea yes. [Celia:] Yes. [Wendy:] Yeah. Yeah. [Yvonne:] Very relaxing. Well this I think's Well it smells better than camomile tea. I always think it tastes a bit weak doesn't it. This one, the camomile, is is very good for the We call it the children's one because it's good for everything for children really. If they get a bit tetchy... and and they're crying a lot maybe cos they're teething you could just massage a little bit on their temples. If they're teething just on their jaw line. You never take them internally, it's always externally you use these. Or if you've got a headache you can massage it on your temples. If you suffer from eczema, psoriasis, any dry skin complaint, camomile is quite a soother for that. If you get itchy patches, do any of you ever get itchy patches? [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. [Emmy:] Mm. [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] I find sometimes I get itchy [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] patches and you don't know why, maybe you've been in the garden or something irritates you, you'll find that camomile will c soothe and calm that down. So, gonna pass it round and just If you do this [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] it'll drop eventually... [LAUGHTER] like that []. If you shake it it doesn't seem to drop. But just drop a bit on, that's it, a drop. [speaker001:] Yeah I don't want to take too much though. [Yvonne:] That's it. [speaker001:] Right. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] Just massage it on your hand. I'll leave some tissues around so that if you don't like it or you want to rub it off you can always use a tissue. There. There. [Celia:] Your mother'll wonder where you've been Mike. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Yes. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Ooh yeah. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] ? [speaker001:] No. [Yvonne:] No you don't like that one? No right. [speaker001:] No. [Yvonne:] Right. There. [Celia:] can smell that from here. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. []... [speaker001:] I think it'd give me a headache, not take it away. [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] Right. So so you'd say to yourself, Right [speaker001:] No. [Yvonne:] you don't like camomile, that's not gonna do you any good. The next one, which is similar to camomile and which I find a lot of people like better, is lavender. Everybody thinks of grandma with lavender. Lavender in the cupboards and lavender everywhere. Lavender again is good for headaches and it's good if you can't sleep or you suffer a bit from insomnia. [speaker001:] No I s s I don't suffer from that. [Yvonne:] No [LAUGHTER] like me the opposite direction. [] [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] Erm but if you can't sleep you could put a little bit on a hankie on your pillow or rub a little bit on your chest, and it'll help to... erm make you sleep. Lavender is also one that's quite good for things like acne. If you suffer from acne at all. Cos acne can often be s triggered by stress. Erm acne is good it's also good for burns. [Emmy:] What do you do with acne then? Do you [Yvonne:] Well you would just... massage it on your face. [Emmy:] Mhm. [Yvonne:] Over your face. You can put it with a moisturizer, [Emmy:] Mhm. [Yvonne:] or you could just erm... put on your hands and just gently go over your face. [Emmy:] Mhm. [Yvonne:] Make sure you washed your hands first before you do it. And it's supposed to help erm calm the skin down. Cos it's often acne is caused by the overactivity of the sebaceous glands. And what it does the... s erm sebum is very poisonous. If it can't get out... from the surface of the skin then it goes underneath and gets these great lumps which are very poisonous. [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] I mean often acne runs in families as well. It you know everybody [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] can be prone to it. But you can help by sort of relaxing the pores so that the oil can come out. But it is the overactivity of the sebaceous glands that [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] sends more oil through. So lavender can help calm it. It's also good for sunburn and if you burn yourself. If you get very sun [Celia:] Really? [Yvonne:] Yeah it's very calming. Apparently during the First World War some professor erm was using a bunsen burner and he burned himself quite badly and by him he just happ [LAUGHTER] he just happened to have [] some lavender oil essential and... for the nearest thing he put his hand in there and apparently it was supposed to have calmed it down and it healed very quickly. So during the First World War and in the Second for severe burn cases they use er used Lavender... mm if they didn't have any drugs of any kind. [speaker001:] Is that like a dock leaf when you? [Yvonne:] Yes, that's the same sort of thing. The plants have [speaker001:] Yeah. [Yvonne:] a certain chemical [speaker001:] Yeah [Yvonne:] and if you sting yourself you go and get a dock leaf. You [speaker001:] Dock leaf yeah. [Yvonne:] don't know why but the dock leaf takes the itching out. It's a similar sort of thing. So the lavender is good for headaches, it's good [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] for... insom [speaker001:] Where's that one put it er somewhere else? [Yvonne:] Just put it somewhere. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] I'm gonna run out of space here you know. [Celia:] Roll your sleeve up. [Yvonne:] Roll your sleeves up yeah. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] That's it. [speaker001:] . [Celia:] Is this still a is [Yvonne:] Yeah. [Celia:] this a r these are r the relaxing [speaker001:] . [Celia:] ones we're on? [Yvonne:] These are all the relaxing ones now so Also if you've got them on... breathe deeply. Now just breathing deeply with it will help you relax. [Wendy:] Not with the camomile one it won't. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] No. No not with the camomile one, maybe that's [Wendy:] I'm not keen on that one. Not keen on that. [Yvonne:] not so good. []... You've got to like the smell, [Wendy:] Oh yeah. [Yvonne:] otherwise it just will not do you any good. [speaker001:] Right. Well that's better. [Yvonne:] Do you like that the lavender better? [speaker001:] Well yeah I I got in a lavender bush when I was small so [Yvonne:] Oh did you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] you'll like the lavender one. [speaker001:] .... My brothers er I mean you know this lavender bush and... Get in there. [Celia:] Bet you smelled lovely when you came out. [speaker001:] compost heap. [LAUGHTER]. Yeah. all right.... [Yvonne:] Another one which is very relaxing, and this one you'll find much stronger that the... It's a different smell. Those two that we've had are fl are flowers. The ylang-ylang is a flower, but it's a tropical flower and it's this is called can be called the Oil of Tranquillity. So this g very good for things like shock... like when my husband gets a telephone bill, [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] to my son, [gruffly] You have been on the phone again. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] Or if you're frightened or if you're very anxious, if you're gonna do something important and you've not done it before and you get a bit anxious, you can use the ylang-ylang which is the Oil of Tranquillity. It's very calming. [Wendy:] Or the next committee meeting. [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. Yes. You'd better use that. [] [Emmy:] Couldn't you leave me a drop? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... [Yvonne:] Yeah so ylang-ylang is it's it's very good, it's a good sort of all-round one. [Wendy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] But this has a much different smell... to the others. [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Eh? [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] You might like that one, it's sort of more [speaker001:] Right. [Yvonne:] erm... it's not sort of flowery. [Wendy:] Lovely. It's gorgeous. [Celia:] Yeah i they're not overpowering are they. [Yvonne:] No. [speaker001:] They're delicate. Mm. [Yvonne:] No. [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] I found we used to have them mixed with sweet almond oil and soya oil, which I find this one brings out their aroma much more the grapeseed oil. It's supposed to be erm a lighter oil. And of course with Body Shop it's more [LAUGHTER] environmentally easy to get []. [Celia:] Yes. [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] We always have to have things that you know are easier to do or are not s such a hassle with the environment. So did you like that one at all? [speaker001:] Yeah. It's not bad. [Yvonne:] You're thinking about that one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] . [speaker001:] Well I think I need I think I need something a bit stronger that all these three. [Yvonne:] Oh do you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] . [speaker001:] A mixture of all three.... . .... [Yvonne:] The next one we've got is rose. [Wendy:] Oh yeah. [Yvonne:] Now rose is one of the oldest essential oils. And and rose and neroli are our sort of dearest ones now. Before when we had our other range they were all the same price, which was wrong really because it's a lot easier to get lavender than it is to get rose. [Celia:] . [Wendy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] And if you went and bought the essential oil you could buy [Wendy:] Don't you like it? [Yvonne:] lavender for about three pound a bottle whereas neroli and rose are eighty six pound a bottle. So now we've... alter varied the prices. Lavender is one ninety five and rose and neroli are four ninety five so it does make a you know a difference. Now rose I don't know how many of you when you were little used to collect rose petals and put them in the... jam jars did you? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Wendy:] Ooh yeah. Yes. [Yvonne:] And tried to get [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] And all you got was a rotting mess. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] It is very difficult to get essential oil from the rose, it has to be done by what they call extraction. They put it on a a solvent or a fat in layers... and let the oil seep through, and so it takes a lot longer and is more difficult to get. Erm... the rose i has been used through the centuries. Again the Egyptians used to use rose. It's a sort of slight relaxing and an aphrodisiac and... it's supposed to help your headaches. [Emmy:] Does everybody know what an aphrodisiac is? [Yvonne:] Oh yes an aph aphrodisiac. Do you know what it is? [speaker001:] Is it er... something to make you go... h high? [Yvonne:] Y yes sort of. [speaker001:] Sor s sort of something like a... It makes you go it makes you go l loose and nice and feeling good inside. [Yvonne:] That's it. Sort a er you know you... you're you're happy but you're full of go at the same time. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Yvonne:] You're not so th relaxed that you want to do this but you're relaxed and yet you're happy with life as well. [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] So this is what rose is supposed to be. It's more [speaker001:] Mm. [Yvonne:] of a sort of they call one of the women's essential oils... er cos I suppose they think rose was a woman really [LAUGHTER] don't they []. So it's good again for headaches. It's good for people with dry skins. The dry mature skin as they say. [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Er so you can mix it with your moisturizer. All these you could use as a face... cre in a face cream. So again this is good for headaches, dry, flaky skin. It's good just to make you feel good. Some people use it as a perfume. [speaker001:] No I think I know what a rose smells like. [Yvonne:] You Yes. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] He's gonna he's gonna bypass that one. [Celia:] Not macho [speaker001:] No. [Celia:] enough. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. No I just I know they ta I know what they smell like you know [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [speaker001:] . [Emmy:] everybody's asleep in a minute, everybody's. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] I've got the reviving ones next, you're all right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Celia:] Are you okay in the corner Karen, enjoying the smells? [speaker001:] Nearly asleep. [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] Haven't been so relaxed for ages have we. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] ? [Emmy:] . [Celia:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] In the with the camomile with have in our mother and baby range,... Mamatoto range, and I usually go to mother and baby u clinics and m massage the babies [LAUGHTER] with it []. You know and they seem to love it, yeah. [speaker001:] Oh how lovely. Yeah. [Yvonne:] And usually the one I massage at the end is way out [LAUGHTER] asleep you know []. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Celia:] Mm. [Yvonne:] I'm getting very popular at these mother and baby things. [LAUGHTER]... Right the last one on the rela [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] l the relaxing one is one called neroli, which is my favourite. [speaker001:] . [Yvonne:] Now neroli is made from the blossom of the bitter orange tree. You get three essential oils from the orange tree. You get neroli from the blossom, er tangerine and orange which erm or mandarin,whi people might call it from the fruits, and from the leaves and the twigs and the bark you get er an oil called petitgrain. So it's very useful is the orange tree. Erm neroli is very good for sensitive skins... for people who have er you know veins on the surface. [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Men don't usually suffer [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] from that, it's [Emmy:] Mm. Yes. It's sort of the ladies who get Mm. [Yvonne:] the veins on the s red cheeks [Celia:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Yvonne:] and a red nose. It's also good for erm depressed if you're depressed, neroli is very good for depression. It's also very good again if you're going on your committee meeting or you're going for an interview to rub on what they call the solar plexus just here. [speaker001:] Yeah? [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] It helps to when you get you know when you get the your tummy [Celia:] Butterflies. [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] butterflies, yeah []. And to rub on there and it helps to calm it down. They do say that essential oils will often work quicker than a tablet. I mean I've never timed them. [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] Cos it depends how you feel. But that's what they do say, that it it sometimes works quicker. So if you're going or When my daughter had a driving test I was [LAUGHTER] massaging neroli all over her in the hope that she would calm down []. [Wendy:] [LAUGHTER] [Celia:] Did she pass? [Yvonne:] Well only the third time. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] [LAUGHTER] She just went haywire as soon as she saw the instructor. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER]. [Yvonne:] It wouldn't be so bad, [LAUGHTER] er she's not a nervous type normally and it's the only person that's sort of made her go completely nervous []. So neroli again is good for the skin. [Celia:] [sigh] [Yvonne:] You ma when you smell [Celia:] It is lovely isn't it. Yeah it is relaxing. [Yvonne:] When you smell this one [Emmy:] [LAUGHTER] Everybody's so relaxed. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Emmy:] [LAUGHTER] We are not normally like this. [] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] When you smell this one you may re there's the l the girls particularly may recognize it from face cream. A l neroli is a lot in face creams cos it is good for the skin. Go on smell that one, cos it's a nice one. [speaker001:] . [LAUGHTER] [Yvonne:] I'm going to get him to like one. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER].... I can't smell [LAUGHTER] anything now []. [LAUGHTER]. [Celia:] Do you like neroli? I like the lavender best. [speaker001:] Mm. It's probably a knock-on effect. [Emmy:] Lavender must [Celia:] Mm. [Emmy:] be nice sort of in the bath at night. [Yvonne:] Yes. [Emmy:] So which one is the best sort of [Yvonne:] Lavender is. We have a a erm a bath oil here. Oh well I've got the massage one which w we might massage our hands or massage somebody's hands in a minute. This relaxing massage oil has got lavender in and ylang-ylang and frankincense and sandalwood so it's nice for men as well cos they're supposed to like frankincense and sandalwood. [LAUGHTER] And this is nice if you just use a capful in a drawn bath. And so if you were to use that at night and then put a bit of lavender on it is really nice. [Emmy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] Really relaxing. Erm the massage oil which this one, is I use a lot of this for massaging and but people find it very... relaxing. Er [Emmy:] If you have a bath in the morning what? [Yvonne:] Well if you have a bath in the morning we have we have we have... If I've got it here... I haven't got one here, but we do have a refreshing shower gel. [Emmy:] Mhm. [Yvonne:] And that's got lemon and lemon grass... and er... bay in that one I think. So that's you can use that in the bath as well, but they call it a shower gel because a shower oil because they think people usually have a shower in the morning and a bath at night. [Celia:] Mm. [Yvonne:] But if you haven't got a shower you can use it anyway. But that one is quite erm Oh I thought I had some in here. [whispering] Obviously not. [] [Celia:] Oh I'm not keen on that one. Oh that do you do you remember those [Yvonne:] You don't like nero Yes it's [Wendy:] little erm you used be able to get I don't know if you still can little wipes in little sachets and they smelled of this.... [Yvonne:] Yes. [Celia:] Mm. [Wendy:] Little face wipes. Refreshing wipes. [Yvonne:] We do that with the Mamatoto ones again. [Wendy:] Mm. [Yvonne:] It's in my other box. [Wendy:] Oh I like those. [Yvonne:] We've got. [Celia:] I quite like it. [Wendy:] Mm.

[speaker001:] Erm... somebody I know has asked me to... er... You know I don't know if you know how they compile dictionaries? [Andrew:] No. [John:] Well they... they read stuff and they get tape recordings of people talking and they go through and [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] analyze it and they see [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] how words are used. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Because the language changes all the time, [Andrew:] Right. [John:] and they have to keep them up to date. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] And... that's about What what what it is is they've just someone's asked me if I'll just do some recordings of some of the lessons. Also it'll help me to see... er if I'm [tut] doing the lesson properly. [Andrew:] Oh right, yeah. [John:] Er it's totally anonymous. It's typed up, they don't use the tape itself, they type [Andrew:] No. [John:] it up from it with all sorts of weird accents and things put in, [Andrew:] Alright. [John:] and anything that could identify anyone is taken out. So that's that's a bit what it's about.... Erm... it's tied up with... Dictionary, it's and and that kind of D do you know of the project? [Andrew:] No don't know that. [John:] Okay it's University and do that one. But they all work more or less the same. Could I turn that off? [Andrew:] Oh sure yeah. The little red button on the top. [John:] The little red button on the top? [Andrew:] Oh green o it's the green one. [John:] .... So that should be... recording now. [Andrew:] Spinning away there. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Yeah. [cough] And then it won't it won't bother us at all will it?... Erm [Andrew:] Yeah there's that maths paper. [John:] Okay. Now then part of it is they ask me You don't have to, but they ask me to ask people to sign... erm to say It's just to say that you don't mind your conversation being used. But they won't There'll be nothing in it to identify you. [Andrew:] Oh sure yeah. [John:] They take out everything. [Andrew:] I believe you. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's it's very it's all done very professionally in that it's very well controlled. Have you got the paper? Right. Have you had a look through? [Andrew:] Yeah I had a look er through it just before when I got it. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] It's been stuck in my bag all day.... [John:] Now... when you looked through it... and it wasn't an exam, twenty sixth or something was it? [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] ... Did you think, Oh, of course, oh I could have done that, but [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] any like that? [Andrew:] Erm... there's a couple yeah.... [John:] So we'll have a look at those... and see if we can see why in the exam... [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] it didn't That was obvious. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Okay. So what have we got? [Andrew:] And this one yeah. [John:] Okay.... Erm....... Erm what did you think when you saw it in the exam? [Andrew:] Erm I just... erm read the question like... and I just... I I I thought it'd be like a triangle, you work it out on the triangle and then I thought no that [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] can't be right. Cos it's so much longer, the actual... distance it swings through, dunno if it'd be flat. [John:] Right. So when you looked at in the in the exam, did you think, Oh, they're not giving me enough information here, or There's some trick I don't know, or what did you think about it? [Andrew:] I just thought it was erm... I dunno, I ju I j just figured they were trying to get us to draw it draw it into a triangle.. [John:] Well did did you answer the question? [Andrew:] Er no cos I realized that I was that it was totally wrong so I just gave it a miss and went on to something else. [John:] So you th so you thought, Ah, draw a triangle, and then when you sort of Did you start it start the question at all? [Andrew:] Yeah, I drew the triangle on the paper and I realized [John:] And then you thought, Oh that's wrong. [Andrew:] No that's [John:] I mean you didn't go back? So you realized it was wrong? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You thought, Oh, it's not a triangle. So, what is it? [Andrew:] It's like an arc like. [John:] It's an arc. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right so you can see now how to do it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And how d how do you it? [Andrew:] Er you measure get the erm... well measure the whole circumference first, [John:] [whispering] That's it. [] [Andrew:] and then take that as a proportion of the [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] circumference. [John:] Good. So you... you're looking at It's not a question of erm... [tut] doing much calculating or anything else, it's just seeing what the problem is, isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If someone got the pendulum, gave it a flick [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and it went all the way round, no problem there. Two pi R. But it doesn't, it just does Is it forty thirty degrees? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] It's thirty over three sixty. So what was that?... Three marks. So it wasn't a lot on that anyway, but it it it's don't forget that's a good indication. I mean if they're only giving three marks for it you're not going to do... a lot of geometry and all sorts of constructions and... complicated things. [Andrew:] No. [John:] It's going to be fairly straightforward. So... without knowing any more... than you knew when you sat the exam,... you could pick up an extra three marks there. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. Just by... not being thrown by the question. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] Or Er don't forget, part of it especially in an exam,... erm part of solving er any problem... is, Oh, I know how to do this.... Ah, that doesn't work. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER]. [John:] And then you go back. You find out what's wrong with what you've done and sort of go off in another direction, or maybe follow the same direction slightly and... veer off. So... don't be put off when your first attempt doesn't work. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] There's still time in an exam, if you realize soon enough as you did, to have another go. Now what about this one? [Andrew:] That one. I I figured erm...... [reading] C er s complete accurately below accurately... below the part of the wind that shows wind directions []. So I measured that, it was about five centimetres. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] And so I figured that Complete must mean continue on. Er but I did it at a scale like erm one centimetre for o for every hour it's blowing in that direction. So I wrote it along the top of the er paper I was using. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] And I thi and erm... I think west... was seven, and that's only five centimetres, so I extended it [LAUGHTER] another two centimetres []. [John:] Oh. [Andrew:] And I thought it was complete like.... And then and then completed the rest of it. But what I should have done... was... measured that,... that would have been about forty nine centimetres, this' d be out maybe [John:] Right. [Andrew:] seven millimetres. [John:] Right. So that was... sort of completely misunderstanding the question, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] really. You're maki making a... an assumption... that they're obviously going to use a scale of [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] one centimetre to whatever it is,... one. I mean thi this wind force here, er what are they? They go up to Did you do the first part of it? [Andrew:] Yeah.... Yeah I did that. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] the the eight angles divided by three hundred and sixty so three si three hundred and sixty divided by eight. [John:] [tut] Erm... well let's have a look, again. The wind blows from the north, okay. [reading] Calculate the size of the interior angle... [] of the regular octagon. Let's have a little bit of paper and have a look at that.... You've Have you had your paper back? [Andrew:] Erm... y it back today. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] And er then he took it back of us for some reason. [John:] [LAUGHTER]. [Andrew:] That's teachers. [John:] . Not very helpful was it? Okay.... A regular octagon.... Erm... how about if I leave you to do that one?... I'll make mine... a regular... hexagon. [Andrew:] Oh yeah. [John:] Okay. So... if you want to draw... a hexagon... erm... how many points equally spaced around the circle? We're going to draw a hexagon inside the circle. [Andrew:] Yes there's six. [John:] Six, okay. And where will they come? Zero degrees,... Where's the next one? [Andrew:] Erm... I see, that erm... This one is... That's sixty degrees it yeah. [John:] Right. So you're going to divide three sixty into six equal arcs [Andrew:] I see yeah. [John:] of sixty. And the next one? [Andrew:] That's a hundred and twenty. [John:] Okay. And then? [Andrew:] A hundred and eighty and erm... then... two hundred and forty. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And er three hundred. [John:] Okay. And then... you're back to the three sixty or nought again. [Andrew:] Oh I see yeah. [John:] [whispering] Okay. [] So we've got... got a a rule somewhere.... [Andrew:] ... [John:] my ruler.... I keep... losing my... set squares and rules and things. There's one though. Okay where was the centre of that? [cough]... Right. Now this is a hexagon.... Erm join that up, okay.... and we should finish up with about six sides roughly. Now... while I finish it off, if you'd like to just measure... one of the interior angles that I've already done.... And what's it come to?... [Andrew:] A hundred and twenty degrees. [John:] A hundred and twenty. Okay. Now according to your theory that you were applying to that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] one, you just divide You say it's a six-sided figure, divide three sixty by six... [Andrew:] Oh right yeah. [John:] Oops.... What angle does that give, that... that sixty degrees?... Where could you find that angle? [Andrew:] Erm... Could be... oppo other side there if that was extended. [John:] ... Okay. [Andrew:] I think so, if this was this this was extended. [John:] Oh, right. So if you extended that [Andrew:] That bit there. [John:] That would be... [LAUGHTER] That is sixty. Now we've got a very special case here haven't we? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Because we've got... sixties all over the place... so maybe it wasn't a brilliant one to try... but... it gives us some indication of what's going on. Where's another?... Another sixty? [Andrew:] Erm... between these, connected. [John:] Okay. Any other ones? [Andrew:] ... No. [John:] Right. Now that one... is bound to be sixty, the... the angle at the centre, because that was how we made it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Put that down and we thought right draw the circle,... space it out... equally,... six equal angles is what we were doing at the same time as six equal arcs, all at sixty degrees, or all at one sixth of three sixty. [Andrew:] Right yeah. [John:] Okay.... Now the octagon.... Could you do that one?... [whispering] Okay. So we'll make a little... centre somewhere. [] [Andrew:] Right.... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] So what's the angle going to be?... How are you working it out? [Andrew:] Erm... be... three sixty divided by eight. [John:] Okay. What does that come to? [Andrew:] Erm... about... [John:] About. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Erm yeah. [John:] Use your calculator.... [Andrew:] [whispering] So that's three sixty er [] [John:] Could you do three sixty divided by four? [Andrew:] It's nine yeah so four and a half. [John:] Okay, so forty five.... Okay. You start from wherever you like. [Andrew:] start that way up.... Bit easier. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Good.... So you'll get all your right angles marked, each ninety, and then the halfway points... between [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] each ninety.... This is I mean you wouldn't do this in an exam, you wouldn't draw one and work how you draw it, but by doing it now... erm... you get to know... a regular figure. You get to know sort of how to construct one. I mean now if i said, Make me a a figure that's got ten equal sides, you could do it couldn't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Or twenty.... So you could construct those.... And then join the... join these points up to the centre.... [whispering] Get that out of your way.... So you'll be able to see. []... Well you know what the angle's going to be at the centre already don't you without... [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] without measuring, cos it because of the way... you constructed it.... It's got to be forty five. So we can then... when we've drawn that,... find out what the other angles are,... and try and work out what will always be true and what will depend on which angle you choose. If we draw a join a few of those up through the centre, just so we can mark the angle.... So you can join any two opposite corners and it'll go through the centre. [Andrew:] Yeah.... [John:] Erm ...... In fact you might as well do the last one as well.... So... [cough] what angle do you know... absolutely definitely without thinking about it? [Andrew:] . [John:] And that is what? [Andrew:] Forty five. [John:] That's forty five. That's your three sixty divided by eight.... Okay. [Andrew:] . [John:] And you've got lots of lots of triangles that are the same.... [Andrew:] That's forty five right? [John:] That's forty five. It looks forty five.... Definitely. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... how can you tell it's forty five?... [Andrew:] Well... [John:] I mean is there any way you could [Andrew:] It's erm [John:] prove it? I mean you could measure it maybe and say [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay it comes to forty five. You could draw lots of these figures. You did another one sixty, and it came to sixty. [Andrew:] Yeah. Well it'd be for the... this angle... if you extended it so it'd... be eight... divided by the three sixty isn't it? [John:] Erm [Andrew:] Three sixty divided by eight. [John:] It looks it looks as if it is. I'm not [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] disputing if it whether it is or it isn't, but how can we show that it is? How can we... say, [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Well it always will be?... [Andrew:] Oh right erm... [John:] Think about what sort of things add up to one eighty. [Andrew:] Yeah it'll be all... all the angles on this line.... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Let's say if we marked... This is forty five degrees. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay.... What about these two angles, what do we know about them? [Andrew:] Oh right they've got to add up to a hundred and eighty [John:] Right. [Andrew:] right. [John:] They're both the same angle for a start, because we've got an isosceles triangle, and forty five plus two X must add up to a hundred and eighty. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That one there is also X. So here we've got this angle plus two X. [Andrew:] Yeah so the two X minus... one eighty is [John:] [whispering] Okay. [] [Andrew:] the outer one. [John:] It'll always be that one. So this' ll work for anything. Now,... what was the question? What did they ask?... [reading] A size of the interior angle of the regular octagon. [] What do they mean by the interior angle? [Andrew:] The angle between these two points. [John:] Right.... And what should it be? [Andrew:] Erm... A hundred and... a hundred and thirty five.... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Right I see. [John:] So you've got the right idea... of dividing it by eight, but you needed to take it on a stage and see what the was. Erm... [Andrew:] like I divided... [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] divi divided divided by eight then minus one eighty. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] That'd get that angle all the time. Right. [John:] Yeah. It'll always work. Now the other question they've got is, [reading] What is the angle between the two rectangles? [] Well there's one... rectangle... and... there's the other one at right angles to this one.... What's that angle going to be?... [Andrew:] It looks like forty five. Erm [John:] It looks like forty five, and it's almost certainly going to be forty five, and we could probably... work out some reason why it would be forty five.... [Andrew:] Would it be erm... a hundred and thirty five for the interior angle?... [John:] That's a right angle there, and... [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] that's a right angle. Carry on.. [Andrew:] Erm minus one eighty... to get this angle. [John:] To get this one, yeah.... And then the same [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... the other way round to get that one. [Andrew:] So... if it was that one, if you could get take that one, it could be anywhere... along the plane.... If you were at a right angle If it If it was two right ang er angle lines like that at right angles [John:] Right. So you do ninety degrees... one one of your ninety degrees [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] off the... off the one eighty. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So are you happy with that, that you can... if someone gives you someone says Draw er a figure, er a regular polygon with twelve sides, you kn you know how to construct one? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And by constructing it you learn... its properties if you like. This is that's that's the obvious one. That's the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] big thing.... That's always... divide three sixty by N to give you the angle at the centre of the circle. What about these two angles, what's the important point about those then? [Andrew:] Well add up to erm... plus that would add up to n a hundred and eighty. [John:] Plus that they add up to a hundred and eighty. And. [Andrew:] And they're the same. [John:] And they're. [Andrew:] isosceles yeah. [John:] Right. So once you know that, these two are the same... you take that from one eighty,... halve the answer... and it'll give you these angles, and if you've got that ang if you've got these angles,... then you can work out most things. [Andrew:] . [John:] Any q any questions they give you based on that, you'll be able to do it. Erm... that way you'll have an understanding of it rather than just saying, Well this bit is always. Would it work for a square? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Without drawing it, try and talk about a square. What would happen?... [Andrew:] Erm [John:] How would you work out?... If you d Er just sort of talk it through. Drawing a circle, what would you do? [Andrew:] Well you'd er mark off [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] every... erm ninety degrees. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] ... And draw through the points. [John:] You'd draw through the four points. [Andrew:] work if you d drew a diagonal... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] the centre. You know.... Erm... Be ninety. Ninety, ninety, ninety. [John:] And these angles... would be?... What would the angle [Andrew:] Erm [John:] here be? [Andrew:] Forty five. [John:] They'd be forty five. [Andrew:] Isosceles yeah. [John:] So the interior angle. [Andrew:] Would be ninety. [John:] Would be ninety. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And the exterior angle... would also be [Andrew:] Would be forty five. [John:] would also be ninety. [Andrew:] Oh yeah it would. Yeah. [John:] Right? In a square. [Andrew:] I see it. [John:] So it would work with a square. Erm... would it work with a triangle? [Andrew:] Erm... three points... the centre point.... [John:] [whispering] Right. [] So what would the angle at the centre be? [Andrew:] It'd be erm... twelve.... Hundred and twenty degrees yeah. [John:] Hundred and twenty. Okay.... [Andrew:] Yes but it wou cos if you had the centre point... up to the top of these two that'd be hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty. [John:] so if someone said like Do a a hundred-and-eighty-sided figure... [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] it it'd just look like a circle. But you could do it. So you're happy with polygons?... Okay. So that's one if it comes up again... [Andrew:] Definitely. [John:] No problem on that. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you've obviously dropped a few marks on that. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... probably on this and on this one. The big thing there is... there's no rule in life that says... you know if someone says Five them you must draw five centimetres. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] This might have been... five knots, five miles an hour, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] decide well we'll have five inches. Erm it... is likely that it's not a linear scale anyway. It's possibly the Beaufort Scale [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] which is a sort of logarithmic scale. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm so... don't make don't make too many assumptions.... carry on with symmetry? [Andrew:] Yeah. I got all of er for them more. [John:] Okay. So let's let's have a look at the others. Now you tell me which ones you think were... an absolute doddle. A giveaway. [Andrew:] This was... the ones here. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] [reading] Measure the size of the angle compass. [] [John:] Okay. Did you [Andrew:] Erm protractor sorry. [John:] did you use that or [Andrew:] No cos I didn't have it at the time when I did that. [John:] Would it have been an advantage to use the? [Andrew:] Erm... well er yes I thought cos I'm just measuring the [John:] Yeah. It depends what you're used to. When you get used [Andrew:] Aha. [John:] to this one, you'll find it so much easier. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm... it's a bit off-putting at the start because it's got the two scales on. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Make sure you're reading the right one all the time.... [whispering] Okay. []... So no problem there.... You think you got Did you did you see which ones you got full marks on? [Andrew:] Erm... yeah. I didn't do this I d I didn't quite finish this one cos we only had... erm... one and a half hour to do the two-hour paper like. [John:] [sucks teeth] Okay. And there were... how many marks on that then? [Andrew:] Erm... erm eleven marks like. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So... at the start of the paper,... have a quick whiz through, see where the marks are, [Andrew:] Do them first, yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] and think, Well I'm going to Not necessarily do them first. I mean you can whi you could go through and you can pick up lots of ones and twos that build up. You're probably going to do them anyway, and they're good to... get you into it. So you're thinking, Oh this hasn't been an exam, these are dead easy, to just play yourself in. Erm... but don't like the [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] ones the or others, if you're getting stuck on them, don't miss something like this that you could do and get full marks. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Er you know makes a big difference to your final... grade doesn't it?... [whispering] Right. [] Any problems with these? [Andrew:] Erm no. They they they were they were straightforward, just... [John:] Okay. How did you do this one? [Andrew:] Erm I drew a... I drew a erm Venn diagram. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Put my twenty one in the... Whimby circle or Whitby circle, and the thirteen in the erm Scarborough circle.... Put X in the middle, and twenty one minus X. [John:] Okay. Just just show me how you did that one.... So... a trip to Whitby and a trip to Scarborough.... You've got thirty pupils interested in one or both trips.... [Andrew:] Right.... [John:] Twenty one interested [Andrew:] . [John:] in the Whitby... and thirteen... interested in the one to Scarborough. [Andrew:] So there's an X in the middle. [John:] How many interested in both of these trips?... [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] Now okay. You've got... thirty down there, that's good,... X in the middle, twenty one minus X, thirteen minus X. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] So... [John:] So when you get to that point you you've more or [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] less solved the problem haven't you. If you can if you can handle simple equations, you get the answer.... Like most of these, the key [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] is what should we call X. Once you've [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... sorted that out then you follow your system.... Okay. And does that does that work out? How many would you have in here then? [Andrew:] Yes you'd have erm... seventeen. [John:] So you've got seventeen in there, seventeen in Whitby. [Andrew:] ... And eleven.... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And then erm... four interested in the both trips so... [John:] What does that come to?... [Andrew:] Erm erm... it's twelve.... Oh right that's not right is it, no. Erm... [John:] Mm.... Okay so we've got eleven and four is fifteen, and seventeen... is thirty two.... It says there were thirty pupils. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Mm. Now did you see your marks on this one? [Andrew:] Erm no. I d I didn't er not on that one. [John:] No that's okay. So there's another one where probably... you can pull up your marks quite easily. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Cos you know you know the method, you know what to do, it's just a question of sorting it out. You know a little bit of extra... thinking about it. So one of the points... that sort of comes up is you haven't used the thirty at all have you?... Now did they give you that and it's something you don't need or do you think maybe it's something you do need? [Andrew:] Er.... I just didn't know how to apply it. [John:] Mm. Okay.... Is this basic idea okay? We've got X... pupils interested in both, so we've got... twenty one minus X in that and... thirteen want to go to Scarborough, okay? Thirteen minus X in there. Now... where did this come from? Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. [Andrew:] Well you've got your X there, you've got your two Xs there, so you subtract them... and you've got [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] and then take the... halve. [John:] Well th you've got an equation, okay. Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. Now where did it where did it come from? Show me where each term from so you could Thanks very much. [Andrew:] Cheers Dad. [speaker001:] Put away your er luggage.... [Andrew:] . Er cheers. [speaker001:] [whispering] Scattered about. [] [LAUGHTER]... [Andrew:] Cheers. [speaker001:] Right. Okay. [John:] Thanks very much. [speaker001:] . [Andrew:] S erm... so I had to subtract these two.... [John:] Mm.... Try and explain it in terms of say... let's get all these kids out into the school yard, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and draw two big circles that intersect, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and say, Now we want to sort you out, see who's going where, so we can organize the coach now, and if you're interested in Scarborough go and stand in that circle,Whit Whitby there, interested in both then stand where the two circles intersect. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Now take it from there. What will you what how can you work out... [Andrew:] Well erm... just count how many's erm... [John:] I mean two teachers come back and one of them says, Well I've counted all those who are going to Whitby. and the other one says, I've counted all those who are going to Scarborough, [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] ... and er nobody... remembered to count the ones in the middle.... But we do know there were thirty pupils, which hasn't Has that appeared in your equation anywhere? [Andrew:] No not really. [LAUGHTER] [John:] No. [sucks teeth]... Now erm I still don't really understand where you got this from.... [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] Why did you you do twenty one minus thirteen for a start? [Andrew:] Well I had the the twenty one and thirteen in the two groups... so... subtract those two and have twice the amount of X I thought I would have.... [John:] Erm you you seem to be equating the groups. Okay. We won't go into... where you go that from... cos I think it sounds a bit like sort of clutching at straws really. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I'm going to get an equation out of this. You you've you've started off brilliantly. You've got marked on you know exactly how many are going to Whitby,... right, twenty one minus X, how many are going to both, and how many are going to Scarborough.... So what could you find out from that?... That ties up with this. That ties up with. [Andrew:] You could er subtract the number going to Whitby from thirty. [John:] You could. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] You could do something a lot [Andrew:] And then [John:] simpler. A lot simpler.... How many pupils were there altogether? [Andrew:] There were thirty pupils so [John:] And how many are there standing there in the playground? [Andrew:] There's thirty. [John:] Right? [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So... an equation? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... Count how many you've got in here. We've got twenty one minus [Andrew:] So twenty one minus X plus thirteen minus X is equal to thirty. [John:] And those in the middle as well. [Andrew:] But oh twenty one minus X plus... X... plus thirteen minus X is thirty. [John:] Right. So we just right that down, that's the total. So we've got twenty one minus X... those are the ones going to Whitby, and we've got X going to both, and we've got thirteen minus X, and that's the lot. Now assume that this is assuming they all voted. They all said, Yes we do want to go. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm it would have been better if they'd given you some information to say, They all voted for at least one [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] trip, or there were four who went nowhere. Okay. So.... [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] What does that give you?... [Andrew:] So it'd be erm... thirty four minus two X plus X... erm...... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Er X [John:] So how do you just I mean rather than do it in your head, especially in an exam, just what you're going to do, put the Add X to both sides say.... [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] If you add X to minus X [Andrew:] .... Oh it's three yeah. [John:] Right. Let's have a little look. [Andrew:] Thirty four equals thirty. [John:] Right. If we just... take it from there. Thirty four minus X equals thirty. Now as soon as you've got a minus X and you're trying to take it over to one side, and you're trying to bring the other one over, there's a good chance that something's going to go wrong. So why not just follow a nice simple system. Thirty four minus X equals thirty. Okay. Add X to each side.... They go out.... Subtract thirty from both sides.... Thirty four minus thirty equals thirty minus thirty add X.... Okay. So X is equal to? [Andrew:] Four. [John:] [whispering] Which... is what you've got there. [] And [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Now does it add up?... It should do this time if your if... Is this right? We've got Let's check that. got the same answer still.... Twenty one... minus X If I give you some numbers to add up. If I said... twenty seven... add... thirty five add forty nine... add seventeen, would you add them up like that?... Or might you put them one under another? [Andrew:] Yeah I'd probably put the... numbers [John:] Okay. So [Andrew:] which are easier to [John:] Yes. [Andrew:] fit ea slip easier. [John:] Twenty one minus X... plus X... plus thirteen minus X. Tot those up.... Plus X and a minus X go out. That gives minus X.... Thirty four equals thirty. Erm... there may be a simpler way of doing it. Now is this right? Cos we're still getting X equals four.... Add the X to each side,... take the thirty off each side we've got X equals four. So what's going wrong here? Seventeen... and Ah. [Andrew:] Oh sorry nine yeah. Nine yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [cough] Because that comes to because that comes to nine..... [Andrew:] Yeah that's right. [John:] And that comes to [Andrew:] . [LAUGHTER] [John:] that comes to thirty. Okay. So it does come to thirty. Erm... the way you were doing it will sometimes give the right answer but the easiest way [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... is to... make sure every box is marked in there. Let's do a slightly more... complicated version. Erm... scribble on here. Now let's sort this out. Erm let's see... Okay. [whispering] Let's see if those... erm... Right. []... This time... [whispering] Let's take that off. []... This time there are twenty nine in the class.... So you've got twenty nine students in the class and... fifteen want to go to Whitby,... and... eight... want to go to Scarborough,... and three little piggies want to stay at home. Three of them don't want to go anywhere.... Twenty nine in the class so what I'd like to know is... erm draw the Venn diagram and find out... the numbers of students in every section of the diagram.... And then if you can do that you can do any... problem of this sort can't you? [Andrew:] Yeah I suppose so. [LAUGHTER]... three.... Right. [John:] Okay. So... where are you going to start? [Andrew:] Yeah but this Right.... That doesn't add up to twenty nine, does it? [John:] It doesn't add up to twenty nine. [Andrew:] Eleven.... [John:] Erm [Andrew:] Twenty six. [John:] Twenty six. Okay. Well spotted.... I probably mean nineteen or something. Let's have a look. Erm... Erm... Okay. Seven seven don't want to go anywhere. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Seven don't want to go anywhere.... [Andrew:] Right.... [John:] Okay. That's great. [Andrew:] Erm... that's [John:] So you've got the various... sections of the diagram. You've got... the Whitby lot, the Whitby and Scarborough, Scarborough and the don't want to go anywhere.... When when you when you add them up... just... if you just put them under each other, it makes it very easy.... So keep the numbers [Andrew:] That goes there. [John:] that's it keep the numbers under the numbers and the Xs under the Xs.... [Andrew:] Okay it's twenty nine right.... So an X plus er... [John:] So X equals one. Okay. What will that give us?... That's [Andrew:] Fourteen and seven is twenty one. [John:] Fourteen [tape change] that was sent to me by the the people who want the stuff. So [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Oh right yeah. [] [John:] . Okay what does that come to? [Andrew:] Er twenty twenty nine [John:] Twenty nine. Now you might think, Erm oh a bit finickity... saying do it this way, but it's a good system. Erm... also when you're when you're adding up if you get this... fifteen minus X, right, eight minus X and you're putting [Andrew:] You just cross those. [John:] the numbers underneath each other and the Xs underneath each other, plus X, and then the plus sign [Andrew:] X. [John:] well that goes with the numbers. Yeah? Then when you add them up [Andrew:] You don't get confused. So I can just... [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] take these two off. [John:] Because there are [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] so many, it's very very easy to do. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Lots of people'll finish up with, Oh that's a three X and they'll put plus three. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] And this way it's more obvious what's going on. There's going to be a minus X left over there, and then you can add those up.... Thirty minus X equals, how many were there, twenty nine. And it more or less does itself. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So... as I said, if I give you a list of numbers, say two- or three- digit numbers [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in a long line,... [sucks teeth] horizontally, you'd think, Oh I'd like to put these vertically [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and do a nice little adding up on it. So why not do it with Xs, because there's more chance of an error. Now why it's a good idea to do it that way [Andrew:] So I don't in me head like and mixed up. [John:] Again in an exam, there's more chance that you make a little slip, because... there's little bit of extra edge. [Andrew:] nerves like. [LAUGHTER] [John:] A similar one. [cough] Erm this time everyone's at Wembley... and you're asking people,... Right, if you draw this time... we draw three big circles in the middle of Wembley,... okay,... and ask people to come and... say which football team they think is a good one. So we've got Liverpool, Everton and Tranmere Rovers. So they say The instructions to the crowd are, If you think... Liverpool is a a good football team, stand anywhere in that circle, Everton in that circle, Tranmere Rovers, stand in this one. And we get something like this. Erm... and let's say there are a few a few awkward ones here er... who don't think any of them... [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [John:] [cough] are a good team. So... those who think Liverpool... is a good one, standing in in that circle, we've got say... twelve thousand.... Okay. In the Everton circle we've got say... fourteen thousand.... And in the Tranmere circle we've got erm... twenty thousand say.... Okay. And we've got... thirty thirty thousand... people there... altogether. Now so I want to know the sort of the numbers in all the boxes. Now [Andrew:] Right. [John:] talk about it a bit before you start it. Erm is it similar to the problem you've done? Is it harder? Is it much harder? [Andrew:] Well it's just erm... it's like... doing three of the previous ones isn't it like? [John:] Yeah. How are you going to sort that out? [Andrew:] Erm well I'll start off labelling these W... X Y Z. [John:] Right.... [Andrew:] And er... label this. That's....... [John:] So as you're labelling it, what do you think of... the problem?... [Andrew:] Erm... it's er [John:] Do you think it's easy or... very much harder than the last one or [Andrew:] just er pretty difficult eh. [LAUGHTER] No.... [John:] You're not going to be able to just look at it and write down something equals two X are you. [Andrew:] No. [John:] You've got to really... work out what's what.... [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay. So you've labelled your diagram and you this one is... that minus W minus Y minus X so on. Erm... it's a bit a bit awkward-looking isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah just a bit. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Could you have labelled it in a way that would sort of help yourself more? Make it a bit simpler.... [Andrew:] those three added together, so W plus X plus... Y... plus... plus the er the rest of E... equal fourteen... thousand. [John:] Yeah. Okay. So... what's your next step from there? [Andrew:] Oh right, I write it down on the paper. So erm [John:] Okay.... And how many equations are you going to get do you think?... [Andrew:] Erm.... [John:] About.... About. Okay. All right. [Andrew:] Hundreds. [LAUGHTER] [John:] About hundreds. Erm [Andrew:] No erm [John:] Well okay let's look at it another way. How many equations would you l would you like? [Andrew:] Mm about one. [LAUGHTER] Just one or two. [John:] Erm... If I gave you a problem about sort of prices of apples and pears... [Andrew:] I suppose it no I suppose erm two W... plus two three Y plus X... plus Z [John:] Mm. If I said erm, Ten pears plus six apples costs two pound forty, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] how much does one apple cost? what would you say to that? [Andrew:] You can't really do it really. [John:] Why not? [Andrew:] Cos you've got two unknowns. [John:] And? [Andrew:] And only one equation. [John:] Right. So that give you any ideas about this. [Andrew:] You got to have two two equations. [John:] Two equations. How many unknowns have we got? [Andrew:] Erm. Three four... five. No. That the I've got I I know these. [John:] You know those. [Andrew:] I've got four unknowns there. [John:] So you've got four unknowns, so you're going to need [Andrew:] Four equations right?... [John:] Does that sound a bit daunting? [Andrew:] Yeah. Well... so four simultaneous equations.... [John:] Mhm. And they won but they won't be difficult cos they're all linear. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] They're all there're no X squareds or W squareds or anything else in. [Andrew:] . [John:] But you can do them. So... with with that, you know how much the total comes to, thirty thousand. [whispering] Right. [] [Andrew:] So I could put Oh aye yeah, W plus e Y... plus X plus E... equals fourteen... thousand. [John:] Mm.... [Andrew:] And erm.... [John:] Have you used Say in the first one,... [Andrew:] Yeah. Er [John:] you didn't use that. So can you use can you think of an equation that involves that?... The total people.... Well tell me tell from your diagram, what's the total?... [Andrew:] Thirty thousand... that are there. [John:] Right, but that okay? [Andrew:] Oh just these added up? [John:] Okay. So don't forget the one thousand who don't think any of them are a good team, add all those up and that will give you a fourth equation. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And all you need to do then is to find one of these in terms of the others and substitute in, and it'll come out fairly easily. Now you can choose these... erm slightly differently. For example you've got lots of got lots of minuses in.... What you could have done say was... this one here that's marked E... doesn't have to be all of those who supported Everton, it could be... just that bit. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. And you can an expression for it then in terms of that. But... there's no reason why you stop at three. It could have been twenty five different variables [Andrew:] Yeah. [LAUGHTER] [John:] there are in real problems. Erm... With two it's not too difficult. I mean sometimes you can almost just try... an intelligent guess and maybe [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] about the third guess you try you get the right answer. With that, there's not much chance. [Andrew:] No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay. Erm so you need to develop a system that's going to always give you a method and is always making the work easier for you and not getting you lost. Okay. So... that's enough I think... [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] on that... to... sort of show you the power of the system we were just using to erm... The obvious thing to do is to label every area of the diagram, and don't forget they do sometimes say, Seven were not interested in [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in anything. Label every area and then use what they give you about the total number. The total was thirty pupils,... add all that lot up equals thirty. And... when you were doing these... with lots of... you've got now got W X Y and Z in,... when you're adding up... if you lay them out like that [Andrew:] Right yeah. [John:] with the Ws under the Ws... it's you'll find that those horrible looking equations will simplify quite nicely cos there'll be a plus W and a minus W. [Andrew:] ... I see yeah. [John:] And you'll get things that... you know you'll get an equation just in X then. [Andrew:] So it'll be erm... so fourteen thousand... minus W minus Y minus X [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] and the next one then twelve thousand... minus W [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] minus Y, then... [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] miss that gap plus Z [John:] That's it. Exactly. [Andrew:] And then that one [John:] Right, you've got it. [Andrew:] two thousand plus [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Y... and X... and Z. [John:] So although it looks like, Ooh this is horrible, four equations four unknowns, I'll be here all night [Andrew:] And then [John:] it's not cos you're just. [Andrew:] I've got [John:] You're eliminating one at a time. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Once you've got that fourth equation in from all this lot adds up to the total, and that's the one... that you seem to be forgetting, that's the one you've got to try and... remember. Okay?... So shouldn't be any problem on those. [Andrew:] This one er I wasn't too sure either. [John:] Mm looks like geometry to me. [Andrew:] Mm yeah yeah. [John:] So [reading] A B is parallel... to D C. Calculate the values of erm write down possible [] Okay. Erm it's geometry. That's the answer to that, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] basically. It's something that I usually say, Leave till the last. It is a Did you spend much time on that? [Andrew:] No I j just had a l er... [John:] Good. [Andrew:] er an attempt and then I thought, No I'm not [John:] Good. [Andrew:] gonna It's a waste of time. [John:] It's it's it's the sort of thing that I would always recommend [Andrew:] And there's only about three marks for it anyway so. [John:] Exactly. Leave your attempt till the end. So rather than you going well on this nice question, and you could you could have done it and picked up [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] another sort of six marks or maybe eight marks for the the end bit of the question, erm you'd spent a bit of time on this. Anything to do with geometry... unless you've had a lot of practice and you're very good at it, you can finish up wasting time. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So I would say, Have a go but leave it till last, when you when you've done everything else and maybe you when you've just checked through to see if the others are okay. So let's have a a little look here. [reading] Political party making election promises. [] [breath]... [LAUGHTER] Erm was that one alright? [Andrew:] Yeah. That wasn't too bad. [John:] [reading] Eight percent every year. []... [Andrew:] a hundred and seventy five billion. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] Erm... put it over a hundred times the eight. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] And then you add that onto that. And the next [John:] Right. [Andrew:] year you get [John:] Now. Okay. Erm... Mm, yeah that's good. And did you do it that way, you worked out the percentage and added it on? [Andrew:] Yeah. Added it on after [John:] Right. What's... Start off with a hundred pound [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... and add twenty percent on. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What's the final amount? [Andrew:] Hundred and twenty. [John:] Okay. Start off with a hundred pounds and add... thirty five percent on. [Andrew:] So a hundred and thirty five pounds yeah. [John:] Okay. Start off with erm... two hundred and add thirty five percent on. What's your final answer? [Andrew:] Erm... two... Two hundred [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] and seventy. [John:] So how are you working it out? [Andrew:] It's erm two hundred over a hundred [John:] Two hundred and then work out... thirty five over a hundred... of that, [Andrew:] Er [John:] work out what that comes to, which is seventy, and then add your two hundred on. Okay. Well if we do something like... what we finish up with is... thirty five percent of two hundred... [whispering] of two hundred [] okay, plus a hundred percent isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Of two hundred. So what does that come to?... A hundred and thirty five percent. [Andrew:] Oh I see yeah. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] . [John:] So if you want to So it's if you when especially as you're going to do it on your calculator anyway, [Andrew:] . [John:] what would you multiply to get the answer straight off? What would you multiply that two hundred by? [Andrew:] One three five and then percentage. [John:] One point... [Andrew:] Three oh three five. [John:] three five. Yeah, or a hundred and... thirty five percent as you said. Yeah. Erm if you... find you've got a... calculator without a percentage key, and some of them haven't, especially [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] some of the scientific ones, [Andrew:] mine's got one. [John:] erm you can just do that. [Andrew:] . [John:] So if I wanted to find out erm... Let's do that one with the the N H S, and this time I want to know how much it's going to be It starts off at a hundred pounds. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] A hundred billion. Okay, just call it a hundred. And we increase it by ten perc Well let's say we increase it by It's not out money is it, so let's really spend it and increase it by fifty percent every year. [Andrew:] Yeah.... [John:] What would you multiply that by, that hundred? [Andrew:] One point five. [John:] Okay. So do that try that on your calculator.... So what did you get? [Andrew:] hundred and fifty pound. [John:] Right. So while that's still in, times one point five again. [Andrew:] . [John:] Well you've still got your one fifty in, so times one point five.... [Andrew:] So two hundred and twenty five right. [John:] And leaving that in, times one point five. [Andrew:] That's three hundred and thirty seven point five.... [John:] So you can see how they as if they ask you to do it over three years or five years or something [Andrew:] You just keep on doing that yeah. [John:] you don't you're not doing several operations and putting some in memory and bringing it back and giving yourself lots of chances of making mistakes. [Andrew:] No. [John:] It's just multiply it by that constant thing each time. And with most... with a lot of calculators I mean you Don't try it unless you really know your calculator and know how it works, you can just keep pressing equals, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and it does the last thing you've done times the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... say do it once and say we want six years, put equals equals equals [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] more times. Erm... if you're going to use thing something like that in the exam I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't use that multiplying it by one point whatever the percentage is. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What would you have multiplied it by if it was erm the eight percent? [Andrew:] One point eight. [John:] One point... Well what would you [Andrew:] Oh ze oh zero eight, yeah sorry zero eight. [John:] Yeah, okay. That's the only thing to watch, that. [Andrew:] Yeah cos that'd be [John:] Eigh eighty percent... [Andrew:] that'd be eighty percent yeah. [John:] eighty percent is one point eight but eight percent, okay seven percent one point O seven. That's the only snag with that, that you you can get the wrong But it's very much way of doing it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... Okay. Solve the equation. [Andrew:] That's pretty straightforward that. [John:] Expand that. You can do that. [Andrew:] Yeah.... [John:] [reading] so much for its call-out... fixed charge plus the time. [] That's okay. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah?... And then working backwards. It costs [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] sixty five pound [Andrew:] And then just er just changing the subject there like. [John:] Right. Now if we put that on there. [Andrew:] Erm... I dunno this is somebody else's paper so... This is before I had a I worked it out as... I I th I thought it'd work out a three- four-five triangle. [John:] Mm. Did you work out it was a ninety degrees? [Andrew:] Erm... yeah well I I [John:] Why? [Andrew:] I realized that cos [John:] Why? Cos it looked it? [Andrew:] No cos erm... the here you've got this in a semicircle, [John:] Right. [Andrew:] and if it's touching [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] the top it's always ninety degrees. [John:] Did you say that on the paper? [Andrew:] Erm... I just put a little arrow with ninety degrees in the semicircle. [John:] Mm. Cos it looked it.... Erm wh what they're looking for in this answer is erm... Because it's the angle in the semicircle... angle B is ninety degrees. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And then carry on and do the other bit. Erm... you know you can look at that or you can put a protractor on it and [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] think Well that's ninety, but you need to say that it is ninety because it's the angle in there. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay.... Right. So you'd probably get... minimum marks for that. [Andrew:] three marks for that anyway. [John:] Mhm....... What did you think of this?... [Andrew:] I looked at it and I er panicked. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Then I looked at it again and I realized that it wasn't too hard. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] I mean I got er the only th part... erm... I did mess up a bit was the... the part here. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] Cos I got this the wrong way round. But other than that I got the... right. [John:] Right. Now this... this... what I'd like you to do,... is read it out... but... only read the absolute bare bones of it. We don't want to hear anything about... Janet having trouble with her bike and [reading] Janet a powerful young woman [] or [reading] riding the race of her life [], or any don't want [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] any of that. It's just rubbish. When you when you're reading this through, you're having a quick skim through, you can can you can cross out, you can sort of totally obliterate [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what you don't want to know because it's One of the problems here is there's so much noise. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] There's so much random stuff that you don't just details irrelevant. [Andrew:] yeah. [John:] You don't want to know that she was wearing odd socks and one of them was green, it's [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] nothing to do with drawing the graph of... distance against time. So what are the important points in that? [Andrew:] That they set off neck and neck. [John:] Okay set off neck and neck. Right. [Andrew:] Alright. [reading] Then Janet took the lead then overtaken ten seconds later. [] [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] [reading] Then built up a lead of fifty metres. [] [John:] Right.... [Andrew:] And so she... [reading] behind all the way but caught up with her a few metres []... [John:] [reading] Before the end. [] [Andrew:] [reading] before the end. [] Oh [reading] just before the finish, fifty metres from the finishing line. []... And then [reading] Janet overtook her just before the finishing line. [] [John:] Right. So all this about the North Rose Trophy and... it's just... When you see You f you said you felt like panicking. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You're in middle of an exam, you're trying to do everything very quickly, and there's a great long screed of text... [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] to plough your way through. Erm so... get sort of practise reading it so you can cut out the irrelevant stuff. And a good thing as I say is to just... erm highlight the stuff that you want if you've [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] got a highlighter, or maybe underline it, and maybe even cross out. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Because you rea you're going to read this about three or four times... aren't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] before you understand what on earth is going on here. [reading] They started off neck and neck. [] They started off together. Okay. This one goes in the lead and then stops and then the other one goes in the lead and then she puts a spurt on and catches up. You'll read that sort of round and round a few times before you get it straight in your head what's [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] going on, and you don't need all this garbage in it as well. So your first time through you can cut some of that stuff out, and then you've got it. You've got the bones of the problem. Then you can work with it. Erm... so do you think you got it sorted out roughly? Even I mean... you didn't quite get it sorted out in the exam but [Andrew:] No. [John:] did you think that... you know what you've done wrong now, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and how to do it? Yeah. There's there is often something on... distance time graphs and... also quite often it's like that. Now I think that's not a maths question. [Andrew:] No. No. [John:] That's an English question. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I mean if you I don't know if you know of anyone whose standard of English is quite poor [Andrew:] No. [John:] but their maths are okay. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Now that's quite an unfair question.... Cos if they can't read through a lot of text and sort it out they haven't got much chance. [Andrew:] No. [John:] They just sit there mesmerized for half an hour and then [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right time's up.... [whispering] Okay. []... So you're alright on trine... time train... [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] [tut] train timetables. Mm? [Andrew:] You just draw a... line of best fit... you know line of best fit through erm all the points well [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] the one that goes nearest the majority of points. [John:] One goes nearest the majority of points. Okay. [Andrew:] So if you've got a load of points all here [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] and there's one stray off here, you'd go through that way, the line of best fit. [John:] Ignore any strays.... Mm.... Okay. How about the gradient of the line? [Andrew:] That's like the... average... what is it it's a... Distance so it's the average... speed that's been travelled... throughout the journeys. [John:] Mm. Erm ... the gradient of a line okay, there's a there's a bit of graph paper.... Okay X is... and there's a line.... What's its gradient?... [Andrew:] Erm the change in the Y [John:] Okay it [Andrew:] so change in the... [John:] It it's so measure measure the gradient of that... and tell me what it is.... [Andrew:] I'll make it so they're nice and e even.... [John:] Now you said you'd make it even. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What did you mean by that? [Andrew:] Oh... t I had two point nine by... three [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] by seven point nine. [John:] Okay. The one you made nice and easy was the nice and even was the Y. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Which one are you going to divide by? [Andrew:] The Y, so change in Y over change in X so... [John:] Mm. You're going to divide by the X. [Andrew:] Oh yeah, best off doing the Yeah. [John:] It doesn't matter cos you can.... [Andrew:] .... Better get rid of that line yeah. Probably pencil. [John:] Okay. And what does that come to roughly? [Andrew:] It's about erm... two point eight. [John:] Right. Two point eight [Andrew:] Seven centimetre.... So that's erm... [John:] .... [Andrew:] .... [John:] What's what's the units? [Andrew:] I don't know it's just whatever the... [John:] Well what have you done? What did you do? [Andrew:] Oh I cha I divided... Y over [John:] You divided [Andrew:] Divided the change in Y [John:] So many... millimetres [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] by another number of millimetres [Andrew:] Oh right, oh millimetres that's it yeah. [John:] and what's the answer? [Andrew:] Erm millimetres. [John:] Millimetres divided by millimetres is what? [Andrew:] Yeah it's millimetres square. Millimetres... erm the other one.... What is it? [John:] Erm... What's X divided by X?... [Andrew:] One. Er one X. Just X. [John:] Just one. [Andrew:] It's just millimetres. [John:] No it's just one. It's not millimetres, it's nothing. It's just a number. [Andrew:] So that's just millimetres then yeah. [John:] It's millimetres divided by milli No, it's not millimetres. [Andrew:] No this. [John:] The answer is not in millimetres. The answer is just a number. [Andrew:] Oh right. [John:] It's a ratio... of one length to another.... Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Find the ratio of... that height to that length. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Okay. And let's say it's a third. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] It's not a third of metre, a third of a millimetre or a third of a kilometre, it's just a third, the ratio of that length to that one.... Okay? [Andrew:] I see. [John:] So the ratio of that length to that one is point four. But the gradient... the gradient of the hill... erm you could express it in terms of an angle couldn't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If I say, Is that hill very steep? Ooh yes, about forty degrees.... So if we look at this... [Andrew:] Twenty five. [John:] Twenty five. Find the tan of twenty five degrees.... It won't be in centimetres or millimetres, it'll just be a number. [Andrew:] Two point four six. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Six three. [John:] That's a much more accurate way of finding the gradient. [Andrew:] . [John:] Just find the tan of the angle.... You don't have to measure.... You've got two measurements here. This two point eight isn't accurate. [Andrew:] No. [John:] It's what, plus or minus... point one almost. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I mean point one of a millimetre's not much. You could be almost well you could at least plus or minus point O five. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Which is a big percentage that you're And both of these could be out. One could [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] be too big and one could be too small, which would make a big difference. But you can measure the angle pretty accurately on that to s to within say half a degree and have its tan. [Andrew:] Right yeah. [John:] Erm because... there's your angle,... there's that, and this is opposite over adjacent. So the gradient it's a ratio it's not... no units to it, not metres millimetres or anything else, and it's the tan of the angle. So the gradient... gives you a mea If I gave you the gradient, if I said the gradient is one, what would the angle be? [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] How would you find the angle? [Andrew:] Just one and then... do the tan backwards. [John:] Okay tan to the minus one. [Andrew:] five. [John:] So there's a that's that's what gradient means, the tie-up between them. It's not In some cases like erm the diagram you were doing about the... two girls running,... erm then the distance against time gradient will give you speed, give you velocity. We've done the Roses,... you're okay on the symmetry, you know about that now. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I mean if if it hadn't got a,... there's noise in the problem there's [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] irrelevant stuff. If you if you you strip it down to the [Andrew:] Actually I didn't know how to do the arc. I wasn't sure how to do that. [John:] Okay. But you know now. Erm... [Andrew:] That was pretty st that the height of just a bit of [John:] It's a bit of algy and a bit of pythagoras [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] ... in together.... And the area.... What is how about that one?... What is the square root of six point four by ten to the... ten to the five? [Andrew:] Well erm... eight hundred but when I did it... wrote it into normal terms like six point sixty four with one two three four noughts [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] and then I square rooted it. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] Erm... yeah, I square rooted it. [John:] Okay. Yeah that's a good way to do it. Mm slightly more easier for you is... just multiply it by one of those tens... so you've got sixty four by ten to the four. The square root of sixty then take the square root of [Andrew:] Eight. [John:] The square root of the sixty four is eight, the square root of the ten to the four... ten squared. [Andrew:] Oh right yeah. [John:] Yeah. Erm okay. It's a good way to do it to if you think, Oh I can't really handle this going on here, put all your noughts on and then you can... work out what they come to. Okay. Erm... weather stations near the north pole. we should start ringing alarms bells a little bit.... So what did you do for this one? [Andrew:] Right I measured... well it's seven kilometres apart so I measured the distance between them. [John:] Ah. Mm? [Andrew:] Erm in centimetres or millimetres. [John:] And it came to five. It wasn't seven [LAUGHTER] centimetres eh []? [Andrew:] No so it's... [John:] And it should have been shouldn't it? [Andrew:] fifty millimetres. [John:] Right. Okay, so you worked out what the scale was. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [John:] And then what did you do? [Andrew:] Erm... I... so it was... for one So seven kilometres... is equal to fifty millimetres. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] I did erm [John:] Yeah. So you [Andrew:] seven [John:] work out your scale that comes to [Andrew:] So seven over... five. [John:] And then what did you do for this next bit?... It knows it's between... four and three kilom kilometres away. [Andrew:] Yeah. So er point seven one er is equal to one kilometre. [John:] Mhm.... [Andrew:] So work out the... [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] So four kilometres so multiply point seven one by four. [John:] Yeah. You worked out what that would be [Andrew:] and then [John:] on the one the scale and then what did you do? [Andrew:] Yeah I worked out what this would be on the scale. that's from T so I dr drew a line... a cir a circumference. [John:] A circle. Right. [Andrew:] So I did round there. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] and a smaller one round there. [John:] Right. So you work out [Andrew:] . [John:] what the scale is so you can set your... radius and draw your two circles and say, It's in there somewhere. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. That should get full marks. [Andrew:] Yeah.... Bit. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] Erm er that... trig trigonometry there again. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] And then er just work out the length of this and then the length of that and then subtract these two lengths. [John:] So that's quite a nice question. Erm...... Seven marks on that. Okay.... Transformation.... You alright on the transformation? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. You've been doing those alright haven't you. [Andrew:] . [John:] Ah. Mm.... How many of those can you get out of one of those eh? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] How many mugs of water to fill the tank? [speaker001:] . [John:] Okay. So you cal calculate the volume. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That one's no problem. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You think, Right I've done that with me fish tank.... That one. What did you do for that? [Andrew:] Erm... I used the equation sheet which he wri wrote on the board. [John:] Right. Okay which would have been on the front of your paper. [Andrew:] Yeah but he we didn't have any [John:] Right so as soon as you see that you think, Ah volume of a cylinder, I know, whee! straight to the front. [Andrew:] Look at it and then erm... measured it... I did I d and then I redid this one and put it in the same scale, [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] ... and then erm the answer I got for this [John:] Mm. So [Andrew:] divided it by that. [John:] you what did you you used centimetres here did you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right. Good. Because that thing you did with the fish tank has shown [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you that you can't say, Well one centimetre is a hundredth of a metre so [Andrew:] No. [John:] ... one cubic centimetre's going to be a hundredth of a cubic metre. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] it's obvious. [LAUGHTER] It's not it might be obvious but it's not true. Okay that that's the big thing they're looking for there. Convert it to the same units, use the formula and then... I mean that's a gift that isn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Mm? Six marks there for nothing really.... [LAUGHTER] Imagine them all bringing their mugs to fill the tank. [Andrew:] Mm.... [John:] Now you've got to rework it again in cubic metres [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and work out how many seconds.... There's nine marks on that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] really a gift wasn't it? [Andrew:] Yeah [John:] I mean it's a it would be a joy to do it as well cos you think, I know how to do these. [Andrew:] Yeah isn't this easy, this is relaxing. [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay. Erm I think you know there how to pick up quite a few... [Andrew:] Quite a few more marks yeah. [John:] quite a few marks without you learning anything [Andrew:] No. [John:] that you don't know already.... Yeah? [Andrew:] Yeah [John:] It's just sort of looking at 'em a bit. Erm the geometry one that we didn't look at,... you might be able to spot it in minutes, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you know seconds even. You might be still on it twenty minutes later. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So keep it for the end and keep it for when you've not only done all the questions but had a quick check through to see have [Andrew:] [whispering] Yeah. [] [John:] you done something daft. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Cos that's where the marks are thrown away. Not [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] not something you can't do but something you've done ten times before. [Andrew:] You just make a one silly mistake like. [LAUGHTER] [John:] And you just think you know you like you've put metres instead of centimetres on the [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] the hosepipe or something like that and you think, Oh that's not right, that you will spot. Like when you write a letter and you read it through and you think, Ooh... I've missed a word out here, [Andrew:] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [John:] or I've you know run two words in together or something. So that few minutes at the end is important for picking up these extra marks you've been trying to throw away, [LAUGHTER] okay, where you can do it, and the few minutes at the beginning is to look through and find that question... wherever it was, that one... on the last page.... Lot of marks going for it, dead ea And again it's a s it's a joy to do this sort isn't it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Cos you can see where you're going all the way through, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you know that you know it it's nice [Andrew:] It's just like nice and easy. [John:] and... you feel really confident about it, you think, Wow this is piling up the marks. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So... look for the good ones... don't spend too much t There'll only be one little geometry thing [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] fiddling about with triangles and circles and stuff like that. So have a go [Andrew:] And it's only about two or three five marks. [John:] Exactly. So have a go at it when you've done the others.... Okay. Well I'd better get off. ... another one to get to soon. That's mine. That's yours. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Practise with that protractor, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so that you get used to it so that you prefer to use it to the other one. Have have have both, but if you've got bearings... [Andrew:] It easy to b better. [John:] use that. If someone gives you a... polygon to draw [Andrew:] Yeah. Use that cos it's not not fiddling [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] around twisting it. [John:] I mean in the time is takes you to do a sketch you can draw accurately [Andrew:] Be easier to. [John:] draw round it, [taps table] dot dot dot,... draw even if you then sketch it without using a straight line, if you just join up the dots freehand, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you get a very good sketch and you can see what's going on and you can see the angles. [Andrew:] . [John:] That's your one. Erm... Next week. What's happening about that? Where are we? [Andrew:] I'm... on holiday then so er [John:] You're on holiday. Right. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. So is that for What about the week after that? [Andrew:] Erm... no I think I've got about two weeks off. [John:] Okay, so I'll see you... erm [Andrew:] So we break up on Wednesday that's... Friday Friday, So three Fridays. [John:] Three Fridays. [Andrew:] Yeah.. [John:] So I'll see you in about... I'd better work out what the date is. Erm [Andrew:] Can have a look on the calendar in there. [John:] Okay. And probably be an idea if you remind me sometime during that week when I'm due to see you. [Andrew:] Alright yeah I'll give you yeah. [John:] Just give me a just give me a ring. But er we'll we'll skip the next three then. [Andrew:] Alright yeah. [John:] Okay. I better remember my... tape recorder. [Andrew:] Okay. Erm I've found out when the exam is. [John:] Yeah? [Andrew:] It's erm... right at the end of the... month of the rest of the exams.... [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] So erm... Yeah it's well well at the end of the month. [John:] So have you got what's what's the best... [tape ends]

[speaker001:] helps me to sort of see how the lesson's going. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So... that's maths is it. [clears throat] How do you feel about last week's? [Andrew:] Erm it was good, I made a lot of progress in it. [John:] . [Andrew:] Compared to usual. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That that's how I felt, that you were getting into it, you were... understanding how the bits tied together [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and making sense of it. So you're feeling happier with it? [Andrew:] Yeah a lot better. [John:] Okay. Erm what you done since last time? [Andrew:] Erm I did that work you asked me to do. [John:] Great. Great.... And did it make sense? [Andrew:] Sort of yeah. I was a bit [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] it it got away a bit you know and and [John:] This this is what I'm saying last time that if you'll work through it, understand it, Oh yeah I can do that, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but if you if you if that's all you do then in eve even a week's time but definitely in a few months' time it's just gone. You'll just have this vague memory that, Ooh I could do that once, now where d how do I get started? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] How do I get into it? So you need the practice. Erm been tending to concentrate on specific things which you know stand a good chance of being on the paper, and even if they're not will help you with others. So how much of it did you understand? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Which bits were you happy with? [Andrew:] the positive and the negative. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] So from your table you could find out [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] there's a good chance that one of the positives will go with one of those negative [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and you can make something out of it. Right. Now what what were the bits that were a bit tricky then? [Andrew:] Erm... just remembering say I had to put four O Hs with N H, I was sometimes I was getting it right sometimes I was getting it wrong and stuff like that. [John:] Right, so for the for the diagram [Andrew:] It was just where I was putting the four I wasn't sure about. [John:] Yeah. The diagram was okay. What was physically happening you could relate to that and you got that sorted out. Now how do you put it down on paper? What's the notation? That [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] that's the only problem, okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you're understanding it. You could explain that to me. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah, you could say what it looked like and what was happening and then say, Well I'm not quite sure what the convention is for writing them [Andrew:] Right. [John:] down. Well that's fine. I mean the convention is... each of these ex I mean what you could have, you could put brackets round everything. [Andrew:] . [John:] If you think of maths... you can you can put brackets in where you don't need them can't you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you could put... [whispering] there. [] If I wanted to do something like... three add six I could put brackets round the three and round the six and it wouldn't make any difference. Erm if I put two times... brackets... three add six it does make a difference. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] Yeah? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] It makes a big difference. Well it's the same with this.... If you put something like... N H... and then O H four... well the convention is that when it's a suffix stuff a subscript... and a suffix below the line there and just after it,... it only applies to the last element. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Usually mean the last letter cos most of the elem well a lot of the le the elements have one letter. So that would just be four Hs and one O. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] To make it mean that you've got four Os as well you put it in brackets. So with the maths it's like it's the difference between four times O H... or just sort of O plus four H four O plus H. So anything that you've got four of put a bracket round it. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Erm if we had something like erm... N H four... and we had something with a valency of... eight, say, which is impossible [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but we had one with eight so we'd have we'd have the whole thing there twice.... So how many Hs would you have in that weird thing? [Andrew:] Er eight. [John:] Yeah. And how many Ns? [Andrew:] One. No eight. Two. [John:] Two. So [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] anything inside your brackets multiplied by what you've got outside just the way you would have two times brackets three add six close brackets. Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So it's the same... same with this. It's just a slightly different convention but [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] basically it is maths. It's telling us how many sets of different things we've got. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So... let's have a look what we've got here.... So got N A positive O H negative N H four positive and O H negative now what's going on here?... You've got an alkali trying to react with an alkali. Is this... is this what you're supposed to be doing? [Andrew:] Well that's [John:] No wonder you had trouble. Is that what I wrote er... right... What that's what I wrote but what I said was, Each of the acids reacting with this starting [Andrew:] Ah [John:] with hydrochloric... Okay? [Andrew:] One. [John:] These these are two these are two common alkalis. [Andrew:] Alkalis. [John:] Okay there's N A O H which is what? [Andrew:] Er sodium hydroxide. [John:] Okay. And N H four O H which is? [Andrew:] Nitrogen hydroxide no no er... [John:] Have a look in the tables what N H four is. [Andrew:] N H four ammoni [John:] Ammonium. [Andrew:] ammonium. [John:] Okay. N H three on its own ammonia... when it's combined with something else it's N H four ion and it's ammonium. Like erm chlorine on its own... chlorine combine it with sodium it becomes a chloride. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So let's have a look at that now.... You shouldn't have any problem with... so you've tried there with which acid do you want to use? Hydrochloric's probably the simplest so have a go with that first because then you can see the pattern. [Andrew:] Er hydrochloric acid is [John:] erm [Andrew:] erm... no erm? [John:] It's got [Andrew:] Erm [John:] hydrochloric what does that sound like? [Andrew:] Hydrogen and chlorine. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] H C L that was it yeah [John:] Right [Andrew:] I couldn't remember. [John:] Okay great. So it's H C L and C L's got a valency of one so that's nicely balanced one C L with one H plus. Erm now you've done that quite a few times before N A O so do the N A O H first and you should be able to whiz through that. [Andrew:] Yes.... erm... [John:] So then you can work out which are positive and which are [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Hydrogen's the one we tend to treat as a a metal. [Andrew:] Yeah. Hydrogen is positive. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Chlorine... is a negative. Er... Sodium is a positive. Hydroxide... is... [John:] You've got one... here there are some on this [Andrew:] Yeah er negative. [John:] Right [Andrew:] Yeah. So [John:] So most of these are one positive and one negative. [Andrew:] So the hydrogen with go with hydroxide. [John:] Okay making? [Andrew:] Erm... so that's H... two O plus this two H dow there. [John:] Yeah where does the two go? [Andrew:] Down there. [John:] Right. Okay. Two goes down there so it's two what two whatever letter came before it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Two Hs and one O. [Andrew:] And on the C L we add the... so yeah we get sodium C L is a negative... N A is is a positive how many that's spare one spare [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] transfer that's N A C L. [John:] Yeah that's it. That's [Andrew:] H two O and [John:] S O you write the equation out for that now? [Andrew:] That's... N A... C L [John:] Erm the sort of [Andrew:] Erm. [John:] from what you start with from what it gives. From the hydrochloric acid and the [Andrew:] Oh right. H... C L plus N A O H is equal to... N A C L [John:] Right yeah. [Andrew:] plus H two O. [John:] Right great.... So what's the sort of general term for this, this is an [Andrew:] Hydrogen chloride. [John:] Yeah er what about this then? [Andrew:] Sodium hydroxide. [John:] And it's an example of what? [Andrew:] An alkali. [John:] Okay this is? [Andrew:] Er acid. [John:] So you can just write under it acid plus... [Andrew:] acid... plus... [John:] gives [Andrew:] equals... N A C L is a alkali. [John:] Erm [Andrew:] No it's not it's a salt. [John:] Good it's a salt. And you know what... [Andrew:] and water. [John:] Right and that's a general reaction that happens with virtually any acid and any alkali [Andrew:] acid and any alkali [John:] salt and water. Er so have another go now at a similar sort of reaction. Same acid this time use a different alkali. Use ammonium hydroxide. [Andrew:] Which is ammonium N H four [John:] usually put the acid first [Andrew:] Right the acid and what acid gonna use? [John:] So use the same one. [Andrew:] So H C L plus ammonium hydroxide that's N H... Now it's got four spare ones and the hydroxide has got [John:] Er whoa whoa whoa now it's N H four right [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so put the put the four on for N H four. Now if you look it up on the table let's have a look at erm say calcium... double positive. Right zinc double positive this this type of ion [Andrew:] Triple positive. [John:] is a triple positive. But N H four so it's a single positive. [Andrew:] Oh right. [John:] Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So [Andrew:] It's four hydrogen with the [John:] Four hydrogen one nitrogen all their bonds got get together and there's one the result is one positive bond left over. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay you're not too bothered about what's going on internally [Andrew:] So it's N H four O H [John:] So N H four O H because it's it's just one positive on that whole N H four cluster and we we think of that as an entity. [Andrew:] That's a positive that's a negative er that's a positive that's a... negative. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] So the positive the negative [John:] Yeah that's good. [Andrew:] and the negative the positive. [John:] That's it tha I like the way you did it because that's a good one to do first the H positive and the O H negative are going to give you the water. Now what are you left over with? it's a nice nice that for working it through. [Andrew:] So that... put the equals underneath so H... so the chlorine and the N H four... chlorine has got one spare one [John:] Right. [Andrew:] and so's N H four so it's N H four C L. [John:] Right.... Small L's don't forget. [Andrew:] Oh yeah.... Plus [John:] Okay so just write the equation out again. No need to write acid plus alkali Okay. Now try do you remember the formula for sulphuric acid? [Andrew:] Sulphuric acid erm... Yeah I will do now. [John:] Okay or nitric if that's easier whichever one [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] comes first. [Andrew:] Erm N A O H no that's sodium hydroxide [John:] The ones ending in O H [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] are the alkalis [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. The acids all start with [Andrew:] I know it it's just that [John:] with an H [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] well you know we put the H first.... [Andrew:] H two S O four. [John:] Brilliant. Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So H two S O four... right before we go any further with that H two S O four how many Hs in it? [Andrew:] Two. [John:] And how many Ss? [Andrew:] One. [John:] Good. One S. If we'd put brackets round [Andrew:] Four Os. [John:] the whole lot and then a four down there it would have been four but four Os only one S. Right. [Andrew:] Okay. [John:] Plus erm plus you could do ammonium erm now let's have a... calcium erm hydroxide. [Andrew:] Calcium... that's C A two plus C A and that's a double positive [John:] Right so [Andrew:] so I'm gonna need two hydroxide. [John:] Two hydroxides cos they're just a single negative. [Andrew:] Which is O H. [John:] O H now how many of those do you want? [Andrew:] In brackets. [John:] Great. [Andrew:] And there are two. [John:] Right right. you got the the O H is the bit you want twice so write it down put the brackets round it and then the two. [Andrew:] Right. Hydrogen is positive. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] So that's positive. The sulphur sulphoxide [John:] Sulphate. [Andrew:] sulphate is a double negative. [John:] Yeah sulphoxide was a good sort of [Andrew:] And then I'm I'm a bit [John:] Any of the 'ates any of the 'ates have got oxygen in [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in as well. So nitrate has got nitrogen and oxygen in it. [Andrew:] The calcium... is a double positive. [whispering] []... And the O H is a... that'll be a double negative cos there's two of them No [John:] Well now no no [Andrew:] no no cos they're joined together that'll be a single negative. [John:] O H O H is is a single negative but keep it inside the bracket [whispering] that's it [] and don't forget the two applies to everything inside there so [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] we'll finish up with two negatives one from each O H. [Andrew:] So... hydrogen [John:] Right. [Andrew:] reacts with the O H. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] And the S O four reacts with C A the calcium. So hydrogen... there's two of this hydroxide. [John:] Two hydroxides so if you just write twice just write O H negative and then another O H negative. [Andrew:] Yeah H... two... er no yeah I need H two O H... mm no two H two O. [John:] Brilliant. Two H two O yeah. What we've got... if you write them out separately [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] just to show what's happening. What have we got we've got two lots of H positive okay there's one H positive and there's another H positive. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] They're two separate it's H positive times two. What have we got here O H negative times two. Two lots of O H negative. Right now we're just back onto what we were doing here. One H positive one O H negative gives you... the H two O we've got two lots of that so we're going to get two H two O. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] And you've even and you've even balanced the equation as you've done it. And then what's left over. [speaker001:] Right. [Andrew:] Two H two O and now we've got the sulphate... and the calcium. [John:] Mhm. [Andrew:] And they're both double negative and double positive. [John:] That's right. [Andrew:] So it's C A S O four. [John:] . So that's that's something that you've never done before an equation you've st... perhaps never even heard of calcium sulphate. But just from that little table which you'll get used to as work through them, you can work what would happen. So you can [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] work out what would happen for any of the any of the acids with any of the alkalis. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm do you want to try another one? [Andrew:] Yeah yeah. [John:] Yeah. It's the the the time to do another one is when you think, Oh yeah there's no problem here I've definitely got this. then it's a good idea just to do another one and make sure. Okay sh so erm let's try... mm say stay with erm sulphuric acid, so sulphuric acid plus... erm... [Andrew:] Sulphuric er yeah. [John:] Sulphuric acid plus what shall we have out of this lot.... Erm [Andrew:] [whispering] [] [John:] how about ammonium... erm hydroxide. [Andrew:] H... H... two S... O four [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] plus what was it again? erm [John:] Ammonium hydroxide. [Andrew:] Ammonium N H four... er [John:] O H [Andrew:] Right. I know that's a positive... that's a double negative... the N H four a positive... and that is a negative. So again the H two and the O H [John:] Right. [Andrew:] make er H two O [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] [whispering] H O [] plus [John:] What have you got left over? [Andrew:] the S O four and the N H four that's a double negative and that's a single positive it's going to be... two N H four S O four... no erm [whispering] let me think about it again [] er... [John:] what's wrong with [Andrew:] S O four N H two N H four.... [John:] It's you you were [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you were right the first time. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So it's N H four [Andrew:] Two N H four I said. [John:] You're going to have two lots of N H four right. Let's let's say we were doing Right now what do you mean by that? What does this two apply to?... [Andrew:] Erm... the N H four so brackets [John:] Let's [Andrew:] with the two afterwards. [John:] Right brilliant. [Andrew:] So S O four bracket N H four two. [John:] Right so it's the right way round N H four... N H four twice so N H four two [Andrew:] [whispering] S O four. [] [John:] S O four. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Erm when you put two H two O what did you mean? two H two O wherever it was there it is. [Andrew:] Two waters. [John:] Yeah and how many hydrogens all together? [Andrew:] Er one oh no two four hydrogens. [John:] And how many oxygens? [Andrew:] Two. [John:] Right so if you put the number in front, it's as though you've got brackets around the whole lot. I mean [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] really you should have brackets round the whole lot but we don't bother to put them. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] should do it's a bit sloppy in the notation convention.... So if you just wanted two hydrogens when you put it down here. If you just wanted two N H fours you'd put it down here. Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So I think you've definitely got that [Andrew:] Right. [John:] very well on that. Erm nitrates, sulphates and... what else any other 'ates that you've heard of? [Andrew:] Erm nitrates, sulphates... [John:] Okay now just stick with those. [Andrew:] I'm just think I I'm just thinking. [John:] Don't worry. [Andrew:] Er... [John:] There's there's one in there. [Andrew:] Yeah I'm just thinking. [John:] another ate. And it's not it's not the same as these as these it's not [Andrew:] Chlorate. [John:] Chlorate yes there is a chlorate. Erm there's one down there. [Andrew:] Carbonate. [John:] Carbonate which is not quite the salt... not the sort of thing you get from an acid normally like sulphuric, sulphuric acid give you the sulphate. What's the special thing about carbonates and acids? I mean is a carbonate... erm an alkali?... [Andrew:] Erm... no. [John:] What happens when you drip an acid on a carbonate?... [Andrew:] Don't know. [John:] Do you know any carbonates?... Are you warming up? [Andrew:] I'll just I'll just [John:] So what happens when you drip acid onto a carbonate? Do you know any carbonates. [Andrew:] Not really no. Well I probably do but. [John:] Okay er have you come across calcium carbonate? [Andrew:] Yeah.... [John:] What's that look like? [Andrew:] Erm... [John:] Is it normally a solid or a liquid or what? [Andrew:] a liquid? No no erm it's a solid.... [John:] Okay, what sort of rocks have you come across? [Andrew:] Erm erm marble chippings. [John:] Marble chippings okay so what happens when you drip acid onto marble chippings? [Andrew:] Er you told me last week [John:] [cough] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] remember but I can't remember. [John:] Er have you ever seen it done? [Andrew:] No. [John:] Er [Andrew:] I may have been absent or something. [John:] Right okay. What often happens when you drip acids onto things? [Andrew:] They react. [John:] React maybe it's carbonates they [Andrew:] Effervesce [John:] Yeah effervesce they fizz a bit. What's happening? [Andrew:] Er they're producing gas they're giving off [John:] Okay what gas? [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So acid plus carbonate gives? [Andrew:] Er... carbon dioxide. [John:] Right and probably a few other things. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Let's see if we can work out what it is. So let's pick a nice simple acid. The choice is yours. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Which is the easiest one to play with? [Andrew:] H C L. [John:] Yeah H C L good choice plus and we'll pick an easy carbonate, er we'll pick the one that we normally use... calcium carbonate. [Andrew:] Which is C A... erm and carbonate is C O three C A C O... now that's a positive negative the calcium is a double positive double nega positive yeah. And the C O three is a double negative. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Right hydrogen and the carbonate so there's going to be H brackets two C O three yeah? [John:] Okay well maybe maybe. It's a good try. [Andrew:] Erm the chlorine and the calcium it's a double positive Er [John:] Ah you remembering anything? Go on carry on [Andrew:] I could write two H C O three [John:] Erm well what's the difference between H two C O three and [Andrew:] Er [John:] two H C O three. [Andrew:] that's two of H C O three. [John:] Right right [Andrew:] H two is just two of H. [John:] Right so there i they're not the same compound at all. You can't just [Andrew:] No no. [John:] swap one for the other. So what's what's happening with the chlorine then? [Andrew:] Er two C A... yeah. [John:] Okay. Now we usually write the metal first. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So we'd have calcium chloride [Andrew:] Yeah so I'll rearrange it [John:] Okay how would you write that? Just rearrange that.... Right Okay well that's quite possibly what does happen. Now go to the C L, it's just one element, we don't need the brackets it wouldn't be wrong to write the brackets round it but we don't usually bother. [Andrew:] No. [John:] You can just write C A C L two [Andrew:] Right. [John:] for that. Now this thing H two C O three erm so you've tried the reaction, you've tried these different compounds [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] pull 'em apart shove 'em back together again see what you can make. And you've made this thing, hydrogen carbonate [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and calcium chloride. The calcium chloride's definitely going to get formed.... But we decided that you get carbon dioxide. [Andrew:] Oh yeah. [John:] Right so maybe this is an intermediate stage, we don't know but we know carbon dioxide comes out of it. What would happen if you took carbon dioxide out of this? What'do [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] you know the formula for carbon dioxide? [Andrew:] Er di is two isn't it? [John:] Right good. [Andrew:] So it's carbon which is C [John:] Right. [Andrew:] C O two. [John:] Okay so just re write C O two underneath it. [Andrew:] [whispering] C O two. [] [John:] Now if you took C O two out of that, what would you have left? [Andrew:] You're left with H two O... er so it's [John:] Right. [Andrew:] H two O plus C O three [John:] plus C O two. Right [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] plus C A [John:] C L two. No you don't need the brackets [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it's better without the brackets they'd probably accept it with. Okay so this was worked out... not really knowing anything about what's going on here... we've got that and that go together what would happen well pretty good bet that you'd get this calcium chloride cos that seems to form pretty easily. [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] the other reactions we've had.... calcium hydroxide hydrogen chloride you get calcium chloride formed and you got this thing well it's quite likely that this does form initially, but it doesn't last very long and it's not very stable and it [Andrew:] Right. [John:] splits up... splits up into carbon dioxide and water. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm and that's it we've... sorted out the reaction. So just going back to these 'ates, sulphate has got sulphur and oxygen in it, a carbonate has got what? [Andrew:] Er carbon and [John:] and [Andrew:] oxygen. [John:] A nitrate has got? [Andrew:] Nitrogen and oxygen. [John:] Now a chloride [Andrew:] Chlorine and [John:] Just the the metal and the chlorine so sodium chloride would just be N A and then C L. Chlorate would have... [Andrew:] Chlorate... yeah chlorine and... oxygen. [John:] That's it so there is a system behind all these weird names [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] there's a bit of a system. Erm once you sort of crack the code and get into it, things you've never heard of when they come up you when you know the system you think, Oh well I know what I know what it means by that. So if someone said erm bromate... or bromide say what's the difference between calcium bromide and calcium bromate, what the difference be? [Andrew:] Bromide is just the... bromine with the [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] metal, bromate is bromine with the oxygen. [John:] Good so it might be it might be something like B R O three or B R O or B R O two something like but it would have oxygen to go with it. So you're building up now I think a good understanding of the... er terminology [Andrew:] Right. [John:] and a good understanding of the the systems and putting these numbers in the equations. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So as you feel happier with that, you'll b more able to play with them. But unless you do play them [Andrew:] forget it again. [John:] exactly, it'll be cos we looked at this last week as you said at the end what happens dripping acid onto onto chips now... the things to know about acids,... bases and salts. A metal plus an acid what happens? [Andrew:] A metal and plus an acid. [John:] Drip metal onto an acid I'm sorry [LAUGHTER] acid onto a metal []. Right. [Andrew:] think that might be a bit difficult er [John:] It might be a bit awkward if you it might be highly reactive if you dropped molten metal onto it. [Andrew:] Erm it reacts and produces carbon dioxide. Mm would it, no... a metal with an acid. [John:] It's a metal erm... [Andrew:] Erm it effervesces. [John:] Right so there's a gas given off which is? [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide [John:] [pop] [Andrew:] Hydrogen. [John:] Okay right so there's a s there's a system to what's going on with the acids and it's not just one acid like hydrochloric most of the acids will do it some of them do it very readily some of them you have to get the conditions right often you have to get the temperature high to make it to make the reaction go but a metal plus an acid erm... there's a typical one zinc H two S O four gives zinc sulphate and the hydrogen. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And you can think of that pretty easily if you look at your table erm just write down with the... charges on the the ions what H two S O four looks like. [Andrew:] [whispering] H... two S O four. [] [John:] right erm what's the charge on that H? [Andrew:] Positive. [John:] Right good. [Andrew:] Er double negative. [John:] Yeah great how did you work that out? [Andrew:] Er... the Hs are positive. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Yeah and there's two of it so that [John:] Good so that was I like that because you worked it out you didn't look it with table you [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Good. So it's H two S O four plus erm a metal erm... chose zinc then shall we try it no we'll use zinc. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] have you got it in here? No. [Andrew:] No. [John:] Okay we'll use erm [Andrew:] Yeah zinc ion [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Z N two plus. [John:] Right. thought it should be in there cos it's normally... Okay now all that happens here if you if you think of it going back to the picture with the the magnets or the electrostatic charges or or bonds whatever you like to think of it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You've got an S O four with two bonds on it and it's holding on to a hydrogen [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] in each one. And the zinc comes along and pushes the hydrogen out, it says, Hang on I want that sulphate. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and it displaces the hydrogen and that we that's why we describe it the the zinc displaces the hydrogen from the acid. So zinc sulphate gets formed the zil the zinc just goes in in place of that H two. [Andrew:] So it becomes Z N S O four. [John:] And the two Hs that got pushed out [Andrew:] H two yeah? [John:] Yeah. H two and the charge... erm now ah ah hang on yeah this is this one is a bit tricky because that is not a zinc ion that's zinc just on its own so it's just Z N. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Erm it wants to be a Z N double positive and go with the sulphate [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] if you like so it pinches the two positive charges off the hydrogen cos in these equations the charges must must balance as well so that if you just cross the double positive out... you need to you can't write it in but you need to remember that it wants to become a double positive given [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the chance. So the zinc comes along pushes the hydrogen out takes its two charges off it as well [Andrew:] Right. [John:] and you're left with H two. So that's the first sort of reaction with with acids. A metal plus an acid and most of the metals and most of the acids' ll give you hydrogen. Some of them you remember the table we had a long time ago showing the reactivity of different elements, particularly the metals when we were looking at metals. Erm some metals are much more reactive than others.... I mean some some metals with... an acid... a fairly weak acid will give you hydrogen, some metals will give you hydrogen just with s water, or with steam. And some of them it's it's hard to get them to go so but in general any of the fairly reactive acids and any of the fairly reactive metals they're going to give you a salt and hydrogen. So metal plus acid gives you a salt and hydrogen. And you can do that. Then we've got... a base plus an acid, what's the difference again between a base and an alkali? [Andrew:] A base [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] is neutral... no a base [sigh] [John:] Is an alkali a base? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah okay. [Andrew:] A base [John:] So what's so special about an alkali that's not quite a special about a base. [Andrew:] Erm erm [John:] An alkali is a base but a base isn't an alkali. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Hey? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm an alkali is contained in the base family but it's got a special property. [Andrew:] Erm [John:] It's a fairly simple physical property actually... but they're they're soluble. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] But this thing we've been doing with an acid and an alkali, most of the bases will do it as well, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so let's try that one. Now the base is erm most of the oxides are bases the metal oxides so what would magnesium oxide look like? And what's going to happen if we get it to react with H two S O four? So try that one H two S O four... plus magnesium oxide what's that going to be?... [Andrew:] M G... Oxide [John:] Is?... [Andrew:] So that's a double positive... a double negative that's a... positive... double negative... so... H two and the O so that's gonna be... that'll be a double positive because there's two of it wouldn't it? [John:] It's it's well [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Andrew:] You wouldn't write it like that but [John:] you'd write it as a single positive okay now because there's a two [Andrew:] But because there's two of it [John:] down there you've got two [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] negative two positive [Andrew:] That's [John:] hooks on it [Andrew:] H two O plus S O four... erm that's a double negative so the goes there so... magnesium M G S O four [John:] Let's have a look. Oh that's a [LAUGHTER] shame. [] [Andrew:] What? [John:] [LAUGHTER] was going to say check it in the book but I gave you wrong one. [] Never mind. [Andrew:] Okay I'll do the other one [John:] Okay check it yeah okay try the other one then. Erm an easier one in fact. Erm magnesium oxide with hydrochloric acid. [Andrew:] M G oxide which is O right with [John:] Hydrochloric acid. [Andrew:] H C L and that's a double positive [John:] Right. [Andrew:] double negative. [John:] Good. [Andrew:] That's a single positive [John:] Right. [Andrew:] that's a negative. [John:] Right. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] And what's going to happen what was the first way you can see. [Andrew:] Magnesium chloride [John:] Well try the... the one you tried in the first equation [Andrew:] Oh yeah. [John:] we did. [Andrew:] Oxygen and a hydrogen. [John:] Right so what have we get we've got one O negative [Andrew:] So that'll be H [John:] O erm [Andrew:] two O. [John:] Yeah that's the H two O. Where did the two Hs come from you've only got one there? [Andrew:] Er you'll add another. [John:] Okay put a put a two in front now. And what's that going to give you? [Andrew:] Two that's going to become a double. [John:] So it's going to give you two Hs and two C Ls. [Andrew:] Two C Ls so that'll be H two O plus magnesium chlorine so that's a... M G C L two [John:] Brilliant go on see if that's well I'm saying so see if that's what it gives in the book. [Andrew:] M G O [John:] It just says it's aqueous but [clears throat] but I mean when it when it when it happens [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] because magnesium chloride is soluble it'll be dissolved in the water and you'll finish up with a solution of magnesium chloride. That's it so... metal and acid gives what? [Andrew:] A metal and an acid gives erm... er water and [John:] This is the one that doesn't give water. [Andrew:] Oh yeah er [John:] What did the zinc do to the hydrogen? [Andrew:] Carbon dioxide and [John:] Hang on hang on metal and acid say think of the zinc and which acid was it we used H two S O four, what did the zinc do to the hydrogen? [Andrew:] Er it pinched its [John:] good go on it what did it do? [Andrew:] Right it pinched its positives its electrons. [John:] Right it pinched its place and it pinched its charge, it displaced it it pinched it out of its nice cosy relationship [Andrew:] So you get hydrogen. [John:] and it liberated the hydrogen okay. So that's an acid plus a metal, now an acid plus a base which is this one we've just done, a metal oxide the metal oxides are bases, er you can think of them as being alkaline, we call it basic but very very similar sort of thing to alkaline okay so what happens with a base and an acid? [Andrew:] With a base and an acid [John:] Well what happens with an acid and an alkali? [Andrew:] Er [whispering] acid and alkali [] er it gives a water and sal. [John:] Right great and what happens what seems to be happening with a base and an acid or an acid and a base? [Andrew:] Erm gives off hydrogen... ah no gives off [John:] It gives you well this is [Andrew:] erm [John:] this is one that you did here. [Andrew:] It gives off water. [John:] This is one you did here yeah you get water and? [Andrew:] Er... er the metal chloride magnesium chloride [John:] in this case in this case you got a chloride if you'd used sodium you would have got sodium chloride which is? [Andrew:] Er... Oh right salt. [John:] So this is magnesium chloride is also a? [Andrew:] Er salt. [John:] Right so we tried [Andrew:] couldn't eat it though. [John:] acid and a base [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] acid and a base and we get salt and water, try alkali and a base you get salt and water so they're very similar reaction, the base and the acid and the alkali and the acid. They're the same sort of thing they're neutralizing each other. And the other one with the carbonate what happened then? The one you [Andrew:] Er. [John:] worked out yourself. [Andrew:] The carbon which one was that? erm cos there's so many of them now I'm getting a bit [John:] I know and I'm trying to pile them up now and let you see the patterns so these [Andrew:] The carbonate I can't remember what it is I'm getting confused I [John:] okay Right you mentioned it a few minutes ago you suggested that this thing was formed. [Andrew:] Which one wa I I can't remember what I sa I was saying a f a lot of things a few minutes ago. [John:] Right okay okay carbonate. What's the er what's the symbol for carbonate? [Andrew:] Er C C C C C O? [John:] Yeah C O? [Andrew:] Two. [John:] Three. [Andrew:] Three yeah. [John:] C O three and what did you take out of that? [Andrew:] An O... no C... ah [LAUGHTER] [John:] Let's go back to where you did it here. What you did was you tried H C L plus calcium carbonate. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay and you sorted this out very nicely... what was going to happen and what you'd have left over. Right so you got your calcium chloride out and then you got this H two C O three. Which we said do [tape change] left over. [Andrew:] Erm er carbon dioxide. [John:] Right so you looked at this H C L plus C A C O three quite messy. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What can we get out of this? Mm can't see any water there can't see any H and O H. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But there's our old friend calcium chloride right. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You take calcium chloride out, what have you got left? You've got this H two C O three. [Andrew:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Hi. [Andrew:] Thanks. [speaker001:] Hi... some refreshment. [John:] Lovely. [speaker001:] Don't tell me you don't like them. [Andrew:] There's not a lot is there? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Do you what more? You've you've been scratching then? Oh useless. [shouting] Come on Charlie out. [] [Andrew:] go on out out [speaker001:] [shouting] Out. [] [Andrew:] out. [John:] [shouting] he said he can't hear you with that on [] [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah he can. [John:] Right. Got an ear problem? [Andrew:] Erm well he split his tail the end of it. [John:] Yeah I saw his tail was bandaged. [Andrew:] So we had the end cut off and to stop him ripping the bandages off we [John:] Ah. [Andrew:] wrapped it up. [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] The vet wrapped it up but he also had a little thing on his ear so he cut that out as well and he's gonna wear the collar to stop him scratching his ear and to stop him biting his tail. cos he's [John:] been in a fight has he [Andrew:] No erm it was just it was just like a little er spot on his ear and the vet sent it off to find out what it was [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] and he cut it out and stitched it up so. [John:] Right. Okay meanwhile back at the carbonates so you've sorted out your calcium chloride and you've got this horrible looking thing H two C O three. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] But we know... this is marble chippings you know you were getting this carbon dioxide off. How could you tell it was carbon dioxide what tests c... could you do to it? [Andrew:] Erm... if it's carbon dioxide it'll react with lime water wouldn't it. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Make clear lime water cloudy. [John:] Right that's it makes it milky. And it will put out a glowing splint or something. So if there w well we've got to get carbon dioxide out of this somehow cos we know carbon dioxide is given off. So you're doing a bit of detective work here, what must be happening in this? Well let's take carbon dioxide out of that and what do you get? Well out of that you've got all the makings there of carbon dioxide and water. So [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] gives us the other thing that happens with them that er an acid plus a carbonate gives you carbon dioxide as well as a salt and water. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] And that's that's about it for the acids. It also brings in the bases the the basic the bases and the alkalis. If you know that lot just there, you can probably get through about ooh eighty percent of your chemistry. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] At least seventy five percent you can work out well what have we got we got an acid or a base or a carbonate or what, and does it fit any of the I mean there aren't many patterns, there's metal acid, what does that give? [Andrew:] Metal and acid. [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] Er carbon dioxide... no er oh I'm getting confused now there's that many of them that [John:] I know I know I know but I want to just keep going round the lot. [Andrew:] Metal and an acid [John:] It might help if you write them. [Andrew:] Nah, I don't think it is I l it's just remembering they're all different and I [John:] Right they're all different but they're similar enough to be a bit confusing. So right okay okay [Andrew:] It effervesces with it and it gives off... Oh shit [John:] Okay right [Andrew:] Can I look back and [John:] No no no no no work it out [Andrew:] Oh fucking hell. [John:] work it out. [Andrew:] It's getting too confusing I've got to try it cos if I just [John:] yeah yeah no no you've [Andrew:] keep on working it out I won't remember it. [John:] So you've got what have we got we've got a metal the one we used was zinc [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Z N plus an acid let's use H C L [Andrew:] H C L. [John:] and what happened remember what happened what what did well what what's going to get formed with zinc... and chlorine about? [Andrew:] Zinc chloride. [John:] Right okay. Take zinc chloride out of that take the zinc and the chlorine away and what have you got left with? [Andrew:] Hydrogen. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you didn't remember it you worked it out. Now you you're very keen on remembering everything... you can't remember everything [Andrew:] Yeah because if I work it out I'll just know that i it made so and so but I won't know that it gave off that I'll just remember that it made like zinc chloride or something I won't remember if i I'll just remember the symbol I won't even remember the symbols but I'll just know that I can work it out if I needed to. Not I won't remember the answer. [John:] Okay I mean the question on the paper might well be, What happens when a metal reacts with an acid. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Not any particular one so then you've got to think well I don't know can't remember well let's try it what would happen let's try zinc maybe you'll vaguely remember we tried zinc and hydrochloric [Andrew:] Mm yeah. [John:] What would happen well you're almost certainly going to get the zinc chloride and what have you got left, hydrogen ah. So what happens with any acid and any metal with a mes a metal and an acid you're going to get a salt and hydrogen given off. So this is [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] this is your way of working back rather than try and remember every little detail because a lot of them are similar, easy to get confused between them but you think well hey what would happen, what happens with an acid and a base, what happens with an acid and an alkali, now those two are virtually identical they they are more or less identical. What what [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] happens there?... [Andrew:] With an acid and a base. [John:] Well the easiest one perhaps is what happens with an acid and an alkali. [Andrew:] Erm you get a water and a salt. [John:] Right now you didn't need to go did you need to go back to remember any [Andrew:] No. [John:] specific ones? [Andrew:] No. [John:] No and the same thing happens with a base [Andrew:] Water and salt. [John:] Water and a salt. And then the other thing is what happens with a carbonate and an acid? [Andrew:] Erm carbon dioxide. [John:] Right and? [Andrew:] Er hydrogen no [whispering] carbon dioxide [] water. [John:] Yeah and? [Andrew:] And? [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] you've you've worked it you've worked it out over here and yeah and. What did you do you got this horrible looking thing and we said oh that doesn't happen because we know we've got carbon dioxide [Andrew:] Oh er you mean [John:] But you'd already taken out [Andrew:] It made Yeah I know it made that but I thought you just wanted to know what it gave off. [John:] Oh okay what every everything that's made so [Andrew:] It's calcium chloride. [John:] Right so there's a salt and the carbon dioxide [Andrew:] And the a [John:] and the water. [Andrew:] Water. [John:] So if you want to just sort of remember them all, as a table... we've got sort of say acid... plus... metal and see what happens see what's given off, well we get a salt a lot of the time don't we and we [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] get water a lot of the time so erm salt,... water,... hydrogen,... carbon dioxide. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Can you remember what happens with the metal? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] acid and the metal what did we get? [Andrew:] Acid and metal it gives off... hydrogen. [John:] Right okay so it's hydrogen and? [Andrew:] Erm... salt. [John:] Right. Brilliant. Acid plus an alkali that's about the easiest one. [Andrew:] That's er salt and water. [John:] Right. Acid plus alkali gives you salt... and water. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And. [Andrew:] Acid and a base. [John:] Good.... And that gave you what? [Andrew:] Er salt and water. [John:] Right and acid and perhaps the most awkward one the carbonate. Which gave? [Andrew:] Right er hydrogen [John:] The carbonate carbonate carbonate [Andrew:] Oh yeah carbon... dioxide [John:] Dioxide okay. [Andrew:] Yeah carbon dioxide and the water that was it I was thinking I saw the H two yeah [John:] and and the water yeah and the water and the [Andrew:] and salt. [John:] salt. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay so that's your... table of what goes on. Now you can look at that and sort of chant it out to yourself and learn that as a table or learn it visually or vaguely remember some of it and fill in the gaps by going back, What happened when we tried when we dripped ac acid on a metal? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Hydrogen. What happened when we dripped acid on marble chippings on a carbonate? What did happen? [Andrew:] Er marble chippings on effervesces it gives off carbon dioxide. [John:] Carbon dioxide okay what happens with the old standards the alkalis? [Andrew:] Er water and a salt. [John:] Yeah and the same for the bases. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So I reckon you've got that all sorted out. You know the sys that I mean that's the system this is say this is the key to a good getting on for eighty percent [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] of the chemistry you need. Erm you'll be able to look at it and say, Well is it a is it an acid and a base, acid alkali, acid metal, acid carbonate. If it is even if you've never heard of them before you know sort of funnium carbonate or something [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You're going to think well I know what will happen, we'll get if you drip hydrochloric acid on it you'd get funnium chloride [LAUGHTER] water and [LAUGHTER] carbon dioxide. [] [Andrew:] Yeah. Right. [John:] You'd need to know [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what the valency is to make up this formula you could do the same if it was if someone told you it was an some unknown So if it's an unknown compound and I drip Let's say it was unknown compound and I dripped hydrochloric acid on... and I got carbon dioxide given off... yeah [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and I got calcium chloride and water formed what was it that I was dripping onto? [Andrew:] Er and you got calcium [John:] I got I got carbon dioxide given off [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so it must have been?... [Andrew:] Erm... a carbonate. [John:] It must have been Good it must have been some sort of carbonate, and the salt that was formed was from the hydrochloric acid was... calcium chloride, so it must have been? [Andrew:] Calcium carbonate. [John:] So I mean if I I might have magnesium carbonate... and I drop hydrochloric acid on [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what would I get?... [Andrew:] [whispering] Magnesium carbonate [] [John:] Magnesium carbonate drop hydrochloric acid onto that. [Andrew:] Magnesium hydroxide [John:] Magnesium... salt of hydrochloric acid? [Andrew:] It's it's all too much I'm getting a bit confused now it's [John:] Okay okay okay go back so what you need is a when you get when you get [Andrew:] I'm I'm trying to do too much at once now it's [John:] Okay okay When you get confused when you get lost you've got to go back and find your direction again so carbonates carbonates [Andrew:] Yeah but it's not it's not, Oh I don't what direction I'm heading in. I'm trying to do too many things at once and I'm getting, Oh oh is it. and this kind of thing it's getting er I just think I'm going to end up more confused by trying to do it all at once than if I concentrate on one thing at a time. Cos I'm going to be getting it mixed in future now. [John:] okay let's say let's say we're looking at carbonates [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right we're we're dripping this acid on a carbonate erm and you know you've worked out you've remembered, Carbon dioxide and water and a salt. but what on earth is the salt? Well they all give a salt. Which is the easiest one to remember for working out the salt out of these four here? [Andrew:] Which is the easiest one to remember [John:] The easiest equation if I said, Write down the equation for one of these. which one would you go for as being the easiest the one you're most sure about? [Andrew:] Er... er the acid and an alkali. [John:] Right acid and alkali okay so try it. H C L plus an alkali... C A O H... is that is that balanced what's C A? [Andrew:] Er double positive. [John:] C A double positive okay so how many O Hs will we need to go with that? [Andrew:] Two. [John:] Right good cos the O H is only a single negative. S [Andrew:] You don't need brackets at the end do you? [John:] S erm I need if I just put... C A O H two [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] it would only be two Hs [Andrew:] Right. [John:] cos they're separate elements. Like [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] each capital letter starts a new element and that would mean one C A one O and two Hs but what I is... one C A and two O Hs which is two [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Os and two Hs yeah? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So I've got that lot and what's the salt? Forget about all the rest of it, we know it gives water okay. [Andrew:] Calcium chloride. [John:] Right now calcium carbonate... C A C O three, is that balanced up? What do we need how many do we need that's a double positive what about C O three? [Andrew:] Er [John:] Well have a look where's the C O three gone?... Okay [Andrew:] Erm. [John:] And that is a double negative so that's balanced.... Well you you wrote the equation out you worked out what was happening, that... and the you need two of those... So those two got together and the salt again was?... Yeah. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You're you're looking at the carbonate trying to work out what on earth goes on here what is the salt when you drop hydrochloric acid onto the carbonate. Don't know but I can remember what happens with the alkali and the acid, you get calcium chloride, er it's the same. The salt is the same all the way through here. whether you're dropping it on the putting the acid to the... the alkal the the metal, the alkali, the base or the carbonate, the salt is always a salt of the acid. So hydrochloric acid always gives you the chloride, sulphuric acid always gives you the sulphate, nitric [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] acid always gives you the nitrate. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay and that's the so that pattern... straight the way through for all these four reactions it doesn't matter which one you do. So the salt you can remember it through going back to the acid plus alkali reaction, it's the same one you get there. Right. The base... acid base it's exactly the same, there's no difference, you're going to get the same salt and the and the water. Carbonate it's the same again just chuck in the extra C O two. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] And perhaps the most difficult one to remember is the easiest of the lot, the acid plus the metal cos there's none of the usual stuff, no salt no water just the hydrogen coming off. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But it's you can I know you think it's a lot to take in [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but if once you can see it as a pattern, all this lot fit together and you're not If you learn those four reactions separately a month apart or something yeah? You're learning the same information over and over again, this lot you're learning the whole lot once it's it's as though every time you learned a word, you had to learn your alphabet all over again [Andrew:] Right. [John:] and didn't realize that the A made the same sound in this word as it does in that. I know it doesn't in most but but there is enough of a a tie up [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] to make it easier to learn that way. Now... do you still feel that it is too much for you to take all that lot in in one go, or do you think it's all it's it's it's gu it's [Andrew:] A little bit yeah. [John:] you know [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] gelling together a bit. [Andrew:] No I think what it is I understand it now but if you ask me in a couple of weeks [John:] Right. [Andrew:] I'm not going to be sure wheth whether an acid and a carbonate [John:] Well I'll ask you every week. [Andrew:] I might say yeah [John:] I'll ask you every week. [Andrew:] can I just say something but I might get an acid and a carbonate mixed up with an acid and a metal. Or [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] an acid and a metal with an acid and a carbonate. [John:] But but but if you write the formula down let's say let's say you get it all wrong and I say, What happens if you have an acid and an alkali? and you say, Well I know they all give a salt so that's a safe bet, so I'll say they give a salt. erm they all give a water apart from the one that's just with the metal right, so water's a good bet. And I think this gives carbon dioxide. Let's say you're doing acid plus alkali and for some reason you think, Oh well I think it gives carbon dioxide. So I say, Okay where does your carbon dioxide come from then. Acid H C L and the standard alkali acid alkali reaction we use, what do we normally pick for the alkali? What's [Andrew:] Er [John:] the well known one we keep choosing? [Andrew:] er sodium hydroxide. [John:] Right all the alkalis, that we're using anyway, all the hydroxides are alkaline. So what's going to happen there?... They go together the chlorine and sodium go together to make the sodium chloride and the H and the O H go together and make the water. You've got no chance of making C O three out of that you haven't got the C anywhere. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So if you want to make sorry C O two if you want to make C O two out of something you're going to at least have to have a C in it somewhere. [Andrew:] Right yeah. [John:] And which one of this lot has got the C in? Is it the metal, the alkali, the base or the carbonate? [Andrew:] Carbonate. [John:] Carbonate. Not only has it got the C it's got the C O three, take the O out of it to go with the H and we've got that C O two out. So it's a combination of sort of working at of working and that? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] to give the water. Stick to the nice simple ones like H C L [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What's going to happen? N A... plus H C L?... A straight forward metal plus an acid, what happens here? [Andrew:] N A plus H C L right that's a metal [John:] A me a metal plus an acid. [Andrew:] Erm gives off hydrogen. [John:] Right. Everyone of these, the big the one thing they've all got is a salt. So what's the salt from there? [Andrew:] Er the... N A C L. [John:] N A C L and what have you got left over? [Andrew:] Er hydrogen. [John:] H that's it. So we take twice we take two of it so that we get H two [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So with this system you'll remember bits, you'll forget bits, the bits you don't remember you can now work them out from the patterns. And each time you work it out, it's more it it becomes more er one you remember rather than one you have to work out. Till eventually I mean you ere doing it with these As you were going through here you weren't looking at this table you were working some of them out you were saying, Oh that'll be a double positive that'll be a double double negative these'll go together. The more you use it the more the system becomes natural to you. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And you think well of course it would wouldn't it you know you're trying to you get to the stage you can believe me you get to the stage quite quickly where you can't understand why other people don't see it. [LAUGHTER] Look it's obvious this one's a double positive and that's a double negative so they're going to go together and you're left with H and O H which is going to make the water it's obvious isn't it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay so... try if you can can do you think you can do that, you can try to take those four reactions out of one group and see how related they are? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] What's what's the big thing that's common to all of them? [Andrew:] Erm they all make a salt. [John:] Right they all make the salt, they all make it in the same way Hydrochloric acid would make? [Andrew:] Er water and a salt. Hydrochloric [John:] yeah hydrochloric acid what sort of a salt would it make? [Andrew:] Er er well mixed with what alkali? [John:] Well say if it's mixed with erm sodium hydroxide. [Andrew:] Er su er sulphur sulphur hydroxide [John:] Hydrochloric hydrochloric acid... hydrochloric [Andrew:] Er [John:] Hydrochloric acid okay. [Andrew:] I'm thinking about too much I just can't I'm getting totally confused now. Yeah I kn [John:] Right right look at the pictures then don't okay stop thinking of hydrochloric acid, think of H C L. H C L [Andrew:] Yeah but it's still making me confused I'm thinking about too much at once it's making it worse. [John:] Okay. How how can we simplify it? Erm to work out [Andrew:] I think I think I'm trying to do too much at once I'm going to be really confused next week. [John:] You've decided. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] No I've not decided but I know I am I've done this thing before it's [John:] Right how much should we take out of this just to learn and concentrate on for all of next week? [Andrew:] It's not that you're asking me, Oh well what happens if you. and I I've thought about it and I've thought about so many of them today I can't I'm getting confused at which one it is. Because you've asked me about so many of them. [John:] Right well we're only we're looking at four different types so if I ask you which one [Andrew:] Yeah I know it's only four different types of [John:] Right [Andrew:] of these [John:] you think now [Andrew:] but you're using so many different chemicals that it's getting more and more confusing [John:] Alright so we'll stick to one acid H [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] H C L [Andrew:] Yeah but if you just said an acid and a so and so, but you're saying a H C L and a and it's I know [John:] Okay [Andrew:] I know it's still an acid but the way it's thinking about it's making me confused. [John:] Okay okay right so an acid and an alkali what do we get? [Andrew:] Erm a water a salt. [John:] Right now if the acid happens to be hydrochloric acid with the C L on the end... when it makes the salt, have a look at that one, [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] what's the salt going to be there? [Andrew:] Er Chlor a C L and N A. [John:] That's it so it's N A C L. The salts of H C L are something C L. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Hydrochloric acid makes the chlorides. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] If we'd have used if we'd so that was hydrogen chloride makes the chlorides. Hydrogen sulphate H two S O four gives you the sulphates the ones that end in and what does hydrogen nitrate, nitric acid what does that one give you? [Andrew:] Er H N O three ni [John:] So this this let's say we're using N H [Andrew:] Sodium nitrate is it? [John:] Yeah it's sodium nitrate. So nitric acid because it's hydrogen nitrate gives you the nitrates. Sulphuric acid gives you the sulphates. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Hydrogen chlorine chlori chloride H C L gives you the chlorides. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Erm we'll do I'll just get you to write that out in words and then we'll have a break [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and a a little stroll around the room or something [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] because [Andrew:] it's coming up to time now anyway so we might as well forget the break. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Okay what time did I get here then? [Andrew:] Quarter past. [John:] Yeah okay then. So hydrochloric acid hydrogen... chloride [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Right plus sodium hydroxide... now what all that happens is that these two change places. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So we then get sodium chloride and hydrogen hydroxide. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Hydrogen hydroxide H O H well we usually write that H two O. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So if you think of the sort of the word patterns, hydrogen chloride sodium hydroxide gives you sodium chloride and hydrogen hydroxide. [Andrew:] Yeah... mm yeah. [John:] It's perhaps perhaps easier to see it as the as the N As and the O Hs though okay or if we did it with sulphuric acid we'd have hydrogen sulphate plus sodium hydroxide... what's that going to give us? Again they just change round they swap places [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] to give us sodium sulphate and hydrogen hydroxide again. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Water H O H water. Nitric acid hydrogen nitrate plus sodium chloride... again these two... swap places and we get the sodium nitrate and hydrogen hydroxide again. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] H O H water.... That's the that's the pattern that all the acids are following. Write their names write write it like this H C L N A O H [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] swap them round and there's the answer [Andrew:] Right [John:] That's done it. Hydrogen sulphate sodium hydroxide swap them round sodium sulphate hydrogen hydroxide hy we never say hydrogen hydroxide it's simpler to say water but if you write it as H O H then you think, Ah we've got the two Hs and the O there. Water. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] And that's that's it that's the pattern for all of them for all those four reactions. So that'll [Andrew:] Right. [John:] the salt. Erm have you got any of your books with you? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm have you got your chemistry course book that you're working from? [Andrew:] We're we're not really working from it we're [John:] Mm. [Andrew:] it's just a book we have. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] The [John:] Well if you can get that we'll have a look at that and I want you to try some of these equations in it. And I want you to try them in groups so that acid alkali [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I think I reckon you could you could just do that without looking at your book couldn't you. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] If someone said, Okay nitric acid and calcium hydroxide. as long as you were using this chart to work out which are single negative and double negative, what's going to happen to that one? You've got nitric acid [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] hydrogen nitrate plus calcium hydroxide [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] is going to give you well these two the metal and the hydrogen just swap round each time. So it's going to give you calcium nitrate and the old hydrogen hydroxide again. you you can you can look at I mean it's easier with your formula if you've got H N O three and C A O H twice... C A and that's going together. You'll need two of these... because we want two O Hs to go with those two O Hs. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And you'll want two N O three's to go with that C A. So any of these I reckon you could work out any any acid with any alkali you could work it out. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So have a look through your book have a very quick glance at erm if you can just at... an acid alkali one, at one side of an equation co try not to read it cover it up... write it down and leave it for a few minutes till you've forgotten if you did accidentally see what was on the other side till you've forgotten it. Erm [Andrew:] Right. [John:] write a few of those down, all the same type, all acids and alkali and then you just you can just bomb through those. Then try some... with bases. Yeah try a few of those erm that one... really [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you could work out any one of those at all any metal with any acid because the metal just comes in pushes the hydrogen out. So if it was hydrogen sulphate, sulphuric acid, it'll push the hydrogen out and become zinc sulphate and liberate the hydrogen. If it was hydrogen nitrate the nitric acid the zinc would push the hydrogen out and make a zinc nitrate.... Erm the carbonate perhaps the most awkward one [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but you've worked that out yourself I like that because you [cough] you went for the salt see you knew you were doing... exactly what I was saying sort of forming the pattern [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] But you you don't want to you don't want to see that you're doing it that way. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] [cough] so went straight for the calcium chloride, this is the page where you did it.... Right quite an awkward one that I gave you. Hydrogen chloride calcium carbonate you put your your double and single negatives on. Well we're going to get a salt cos they all give salts. There's your calcium chloride what have we get left over we've got this we've got hydrogen carbonate and that was really should have been your answer but then you know carbon dioxide came out... so you just took it out and you got water left over. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So that gives you this fits with this pattern acid carbonate they all give a salt... apart from the hydrogen one they all give water as well and this one gives a C O two. [Andrew:] Yeah right. [John:] So I do want you to try to build up as many of those as you can. Think I think the acid alkali there's no problem. [Andrew:] Oh yeah I know but all I was saying was that much of different things [John:] Right. [Andrew:] in one lesson within a space of fifteen minutes [John:] Right. [Andrew:] that in one or two weeks time I'm going to be thin I'm going to be slightly mixed up. [John:] Right well learn them this way then learn only the sodium hydroxide right [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and erm oh calcium hydroxide is perhaps a more interesting one but you pick one of them that you're happy with and take it through here so what would happen with let's see I mean you wouldn't actually drip sodium an acid onto sodium if you've got any sense. [LAUGHTER] Okay. [Andrew:] Yeah I know [speaker001:] boom. [John:] But you should get roughly the same reaction. Erm so maybe we could we've been using sodium a lot try calcium because it's interesting cos it's got a double one a double positive negative is it? [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Right. So... take them through there acid plus calcium, acid plus alkali calcium hydroxide... acid plus base calcium oxide. So the alkali any alkaline use C A O H twice, for the base C A O calcium oxide and for the carbonate C A C O three, the metal just calcium. Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] So you can work through those with each of the acids. So go through with H C L. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] And just go straight through that what happens then go through again with whichever one you want to do next H two S O four? Yeah and then go through again with nitric acid. In each case you you did it this is what I like you went straight for it you went straight for the salt... on the most difficult one the carbonate. Right it's going to be calcium chloride. You got that out and you found this horrible hydrogen carbonate thing left over. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] So you can do you can use exactly the same system you used on that for working out each one... and see what happens. Now are you happy with that that you can do that or do you think that's sort of overloading you? [Andrew:] No that's fine. [John:] I I th I'm quite sure that you can go through that because you're recognizing the patterns much more now, you're accepting more things as, Oh yeah, you don't need to tell me that I know it. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I can feel this coming back much more rather than, Tell me that again. Why is is called a chloride? Why is is called a sulphate? [Andrew:] Right. [John:] So you recognize these patterns. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm now next week you were saying something about you'd like one on Easter Monday, I won't actually be here. [Andrew:] Mhm yeah. [John:] Erm [Andrew:] Some time next week I mean [John:] You want one some time next week. [Andrew:] I mean whatever days you give. [John:] Right now [Andrew:] Apart from Saturday or Sunday. [John:] I was very pleased that you'd had a good go at that [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you'd misunderstood [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Now can you write out either now or just before I or when I've gone what you're going to do [Andrew:] take a piece of paper Yeah I just wanna write down what you [John:] So what are you what are you going to do? [Andrew:] Erm [John:] Can you remember what you're going to do? [Andrew:] learn some of these. [John:] Right taking calcium as the metal,... you want to write equations... for each of the four types of reaction.... Do you remember what those four types where? Or any [Andrew:] Er [John:] of those four types. [Andrew:] yeah. [John:] Go on. [Andrew:] Er bases, [John:] Right. [Andrew:] alkalis, [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] carbonates, [John:] Right. [Andrew:] erm [John:] and the most simple one which is the hardest to remember cos it's so obvious. [Andrew:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] erm... oh shoot what was it? [John:] Taking calcium did we say? Yeah. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] As the [Andrew:] Metals metals. [John:] Just the metal [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Just the metal plus the acid. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Okay? So go through use calcium go through each of the four reactions [Andrew:] Mm. Yeah. [John:] So use calcium hydroxide which is written on there, as the [Andrew:] Mhm. [John:] alkali, calcium oxide as the base, calcium itself as the metal, calcium carbonate as the carbonate. we got four types of reaction using first H C L okay so write that in using first H C L then H N O three then H two S O four. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] And they're all they 're they're all patterns within lots of similarities, by going through it a few times like that and when you when you've done that go through again say and with and everywhere you could write the whole lot out again [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] and everywhere you've got an a C A you could put an M G and everything would fit because it's C A double positive M G double positive. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] You could go through again and you could put sodium instead of that M G but where you had things like M G O H twice you'd just have N A O H so you 'd have a have to do a little bit of changing about. Are you happy with that? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] You can do that. And don't forget for each for each of the acids. Yeah so it's first four H C L then H N O three then H two S O four. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Now erm for next oh something else as well I'm not sure whether you sign this or I do it erm right what's the date is it about twenty eighth? [Andrew:] Twenty ninth. [John:] You can read it if you've got time. [Andrew:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] I always re I wouldn't sign [Andrew:] right. [John:] anything without reading it. Erm what it says [Andrew:] Yeah. I'll just read it thank you. [John:] Okay. That's the big point there.... But you don't have to sign [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] there's no compulsion to sign [Andrew:] Oh yeah [John:] at all by the way if you don't want anyone to It will be someone who doesn't know you will try to code up that tape into hieroglyphics which is [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] then stored digitally just the [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] words not your voice or anything. [Andrew:] Just the words right. [John:] And the [Andrew:] Just sign it here. [John:] It's the erm the way you stress words the way for example the way I will repeat words quite a [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] bit. [LAUGHTER] And the way [Andrew:] And the way you use and what use them for. [John:] The way people [Andrew:] Where I'd say right meaning I understand kind of thing but I'm not saying that's right I mean right. [John:] Yeah people say that a lot right [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] yeah yeah got it yeah yeah [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah Yep [John:] All this sort of yep you wouldn't find it in the dictionary [Andrew:] No. [John:] it goes in now. Yep it's what people say when they [Andrew:] It will do now in a couple of years time. [John:] Erm okay that's great. Now erm at the moment I've got a lot to fit in [Andrew:] I feel sorry for the poor person who has to translate it. [John:] for next week. Oh she's very good actually she [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] batters away all day putting the stuff in erm she's she trained well she [Andrew:] I'm pretty dubious to me. [John:] trained as a linguist. Ah but she's she's she is [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] interested in it this is [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] the thing. She is interested in accents and she'll listen to it and think, Ah that's someone who comes from Liverpool, er not a very not a very scouse accent but because they say [Andrew:] I don't know you know I've been on holiday and people think I've got an amazingly strong [John:] And you think, No I haven't. It's [Andrew:] No I haven't they even a they even say my dad's got an accent whereas [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] I would say ee hasn't. [John:] ee hasn't. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Erm but she will you know she'll notice that you you don't say bath and grass [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you know bath and grass. [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] Things like this. [Andrew:] scone and scone. [John:] well one doesn't say I don't think one says scone any more. There are good [Andrew:] Mm there are people who have done. [John:] Yes. [Andrew:] Strange. [John:] There are good things have come out if as well like [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] erm I mean I did a teaching initial for foreign language course at the the university [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] and the thing what we found out there was sort of up to date English usage. I think I'll just take those sheets I said I would give you. So you used to say in business letters things like I should be grateful if. [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] Nobody really says that any more they say I would be, they don't bother saying I should [Andrew:] Mm. [John:] they say I would. [Andrew:] Would. [John:] so [Andrew:] I mean I got that with my interview at I should be grateful if you would [John:] Mm or [Andrew:] I've ne I don't think I've ever heard anyone aver say it. [John:] Well it's it's quite correct [Andrew:] I would be grateful. [John:] It's grammatical [Andrew:] or I will be grateful. [John:] Yeah it's grammatically correct [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] but soon it will be appearing in a dictionary as, A bit over-formal, a bit archaic, use it if you like in a business letter but most people would prefer [Andrew:] it's way down the I mean all these people go, Oh it's people aren't using the english language properly but if you look at the english language two hundred years ago [John:] Exactly. [Andrew:] it was nothing like what it is today. It's developed it changes its form and it's [John:] Yeah. [Andrew:] like a life-form it's [John:] Right. they go on about Shakespeare and Chauce Chaucer but if you spoke to them the way Chaucer used to speak they wouldn't understand a [LAUGHTER] word you were saying []. [Andrew:] they wouldn't understand Whereas we can just about understand Chaucer. [John:] Yeah so as you say it's a it's a developing thing and the only [Andrew:] a life-form it's growing it's spreading. [John:] Yeah new words words come in erm you know I'm well pleased [LAUGHTER] [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] That's wicked. [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] It's really wicked, Oh [Andrew:] Like a lot of old slang words from you know like a hun fifty or so back years ago are now proper words now. [John:] Yeah they're accepted and the the language developing is developing more quickly than that so they want to get the stuff into dictionaries [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] you know and [Andrew:] I suppose it helps nowadays with things like tape recorders and so on. [John:] And computers [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] so because they will thousands [Andrew:] You can store it easily You can use a database. [John:] Thousands yeah exactly from all over the country and they'll put these together and they'll say well in do you know about eighty percent of our interviews people are saying yep. Nobody actually says, Oh yes I agree dear chap. [LAUGHTER] they say yep yep yep [Andrew:] Yeah [John:] Mhm mhm [LAUGHTER]. [Andrew:] It's not a word but [John:] It's [Andrew:] it will be one day. [John:] It is a word cos it's something that people use [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] a lot. [Andrew:] It's not a recognized word. [John:] They use it a lot more than other words that are in the dictionary but no one 's ever heard of so they want to get usage. [Andrew:] Right. [John:] Anyway I'd better make sure I remember that. You okay for that? [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] that? 0 [Andrew:] Er somebody'll be in [John:] Right. [Andrew:] most evenings. [John:] Have you any ideas now what will be a good day for you next week and what will not be a good day? [Andrew:] Er any day apart from Monday of course [John:] Right. [Andrew:] er Tuesday I've got my maths tutor so apart from Saturday and Sunday [John:] And you'll be ava you'll finish this you'll be available during the day time won't you? [Andrew:] Yeah oh yeah that's fair enough. [John:] So I can probably give about sort of [Andrew:] Two o'clock if you want. [John:] Yeah something like [Andrew:] Yeah one o'clock two o'clock. [John:] I've got a two o'clock slot on Tuesday next week erm [Andrew:] Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. [John:] Yeah I'll I'll check what I've got booked where and then I'll I'll get in touch you for next week. Er [Andrew:] As long as it doesn't cause too much disruption for you. [John:] [sigh] It doesn't. Erm [Andrew:] Yeah. [John:] I've got some students at the moment erm [Andrew:] I suppose with Easter most people do stay I mean [tape ends]

[speaker001:] You don't need to be against that wall Tom. Ooh Make sure you've got lots of space because you know what you're like, you need lots of space don't you, for yourselves? Nice and comfortable. Now P C... knows... that I've got this smashing class.... And they are a really nice class P C [Pc Bruce:] Are they? [speaker001:] We don't know the gentleman's name with the tape recorder [Pc Bruce:] This gentleman is Tony [speaker001:] Tony. [Pc Bruce:] Tony. [speaker001:] Tony. Shall we say hallo? Hallo Tony. Hallo. Right, now then. So this is a very... special... project now, okay? Really special, and you are going to do your bit and you know P C well enough to do your bit. [Pc Bruce:] Okay? [speaker001:] Mm. [Pc Bruce:] Right Tony's come here and he's gonna tape recorder everything that's says, that is said, your voice, my voice, so we want it all nice... and properly done because er they're all gonna make a special project out of it, reference to spoken word and the written word so you must ask your questions nice and clearly, yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] You've all got questions, yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Because we've got twenty five minutes... but twenty five minutes can either drag or can fly by. Let's see if we can make the twenty five minutes fly by, yes? [speaker001:] Oh these are a nosy lot aren't you? Eh? [Pc Bruce:] Good. Alright then. Ready to start? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Right, let's go. First question. [speaker001:] How do you train a... a police dog? [Pc Bruce:] How do you train a police dog. Right. Before you can become a police er dog handler [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] you have to do two years in the police force anyway, you then have to show some kind of application towards it. You are then... go on a course... and you are selected. If you are selected to go on another course, you are introduced to your dog. That's down in er Kent somewhere, I've forgotten where it is but it's down in Kent. While you're there you have thirteen weeks down there, which is like three months, with th with the dog. If you pass the course down there with your dog, yeah?... You are then sent back to your force which is a which will be the Essex Police because I'm a member of the Essex Police. Alright? You then work with your dog the whole time and all the time you're working with your dog, naturally enough, it's a young dog, so you're being tested and evaluated the whole time, so your training continues. But initially you have to show a skill, or some kind of application, to be a dog trainer. You go away for thirteen weeks on a course with the dog, you're introduced to the dog you're gonna work with, yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] And if you pass that test you go back to your police force and you are evaluated and having tests all the time. Well that's how they train them, they train them in... er what they call public order work, in the case of chasing people and all that, they also have tracking and all kinds of things, okay? [speaker001:] Mm. [Pc Bruce:] Is that i does that answer your... question? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Alright. [speaker001:] How many of you have seen policemen wor [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh [speaker001:] have you seen policemen working with dogs? Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Would you [speaker001:] What do you think? What do you tell P C that you've seen? What did you see?... I've seen... What did you see Nigel? I suppose erm I went to this club, went to this club with erm dogs showing erm tracking down... er... [Pc Bruce:] Tracking people down? [speaker001:] Yeah, tracking people Burglars. [Pc Bruce:] Burglars, yeah.... Was you, was er everyone in this class here when a gentleman by the name of erm Steve brought his dog here? [speaker001:] Yeah. Oh that's when we saw [Pc Bruce:] Do you remember? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah well what class are you in now? [speaker001:] Mr [Pc Bruce:] Now what, what, how long, how many years have you been here, this class? [speaker001:] Er three years. Five. Five. [Pc Bruce:] Five years? [speaker001:] Yeah [Pc Bruce:] You may have been in they may been in the infants when [speaker001:] Ooh think [Pc Bruce:] Who can remember that police dog coming here?... Yeah? Well he's still working but cos that dog's a lot older, and a lot more grumpier [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] they can't take the dog to the schools any more.... He's not so, he doesn't like it coming to schools any more. He's a, he's a bit like an old man now, slightly bit grumpy. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Well I hope I've answered that question. Next question. [speaker001:] How do you become a policeman? [Pc Bruce:] How do you become a policeman, right.... I can only pass comment on when I went through my training because it's all changed. Right, what happened was I sent away a letter... to the Essex Police Force. They sent me a reply back and I sat an exam. The exam... had basic maths, basic English in, which I passed. I then was sent a letter telling me that I'd passed this exam, I then had what's known as a medical to check that I was okay, there was no, I had no faults or injuries or health problems. I then did a physical which they made me run a mile and a half, did press ups, sit ups, which I passed. I then had to go and have an interview which I passed. After the intervoo intervoo [tut] [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] I'm sorry [speaker001:] Interview. [Pc Bruce:] Thank you, the in after the interview... I... went back to Chelmsford where is the headquarters of the Essex Police Force... and had to do a course for two weeks. After I did the course for two weeks I went down to a place in Ashford... and I was in Ashford for twelve weeks, came back to Chelmsford, did another two weeks and then I was released as what's known as probationer constable, a probationer constable. At that time you had to stay with your tutor constable who looked after you for twelve weeks. You went out and about for twelve weeks with your tutor constable, if you like, they call it puppy walking... he was the highly trained policeman and I was the new policeman, I was with him for twelve weeks. After twelve weeks they decided I was okay, okay, you're allowed to go out and work on your own. And that was how I was trained and that way I was trained seven and a half years ago, it has now all changed again. I don't know the full system but you are being evaluated and tested the whole time. But the testing period... the testing period is two years.... Within that two years, any time within that two years... you can basically be given the sack... for not coming up to the grade or not coming up to scratch or sometimes they prolong your pr probation for another six months so instead of being a probationer constable for two years... you're a probationer constable for two and a half years.... Yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah, thank you. [Pc Bruce:] Understand that? But within that probation period you can sort of like get dismissed for any time quite easily. Does that answer your question? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Hope it does. Yes? [speaker001:] What is it like being a policeman? [Pc Bruce:] What's it like being a policeman? Great fun. Great fun, I really enjoy it. Do you know why I enjoy it? Because it's not boring. Every day is different. [speaker001:] Like teaching. [Pc Bruce:] Like teaching. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Every day is different, that's what makes it interesting. Because from the age of... seventeen to twenty nine I worked on building sites, and that got boring so I changed and I changed and became a policeman, and I ca became a policeman when I was twenty nine and a half... and it's, I've enjoyed it ever since cos every day... is interesting, every day is different, every day is unusual. Right? Does that answer your question?... Right. [speaker001:] What is it like in court? [Pc Bruce:] What is it like in court. Right there are two kinds of courts that policemen, well there's several kinds of court, but the main courts that policemen go to are a magistrate's court... where there is what's known as, they are magistrates or JPs, Justice of the Peace, and they sit there... and you have to give evidence. That's quite scary. But the really scary place is what's known as a crown court where you have to give evidence at crown court. Have you seen the judge with his wig on? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [] [Pc Bruce:] And the twelve jury? And they're all staring at you and when you're in the docks giving evidence, it is very very frightening. I've done it now about four times and I am still scared when I do it. When I've gone to crown court I am still petrified, that is really, really scary cos everyone in the room is hanging on your every word and if you make a mistake... you start to sweat, your hands go clammy... not very nice. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Does that answer your question?... [speaker001:] What made you want to be a policeman. [Pc Bruce:] What made I wanted to be a policeman? Right, what made we want to be, I wanted to be a policeman when I was very young but never had the courage to do it. So when I got older and wiser I thought I'll give that a go and I've enjoyed it ever since. And now I look back on the years I wasted on the building sites [cough] and I should've become a policeman ea a lot earlier cos it's great fun. [speaker001:] But perhaps you can, perhaps you can kno knock up jobs around the house for your wife and perhaps you can build houses. [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] I'm not that good, I'm no D I Y freak, even now. Yes, your question? [speaker001:] Erm what kind of erm equipment do you use when, when erm you've been reported a, a robbery? [Pc Bruce:] Alright, what kind of equipment does a policeman wear, right. I didn't bring any of it with me but everyone's seen the tall hat haven't they? [speaker001:] Yes. [Pc Bruce:] That's what's known as the custodial hat, that's one, that's one [speaker001:] Shh shh... shh [Pc Bruce:] Yeah? There's the flat cap that I use in the car, yeah? You've all seen that. You've seen the mac, you've seen the yellow florry jacket, the fluorescent jacket that's another piece of equipment. My truncheon. My radio, the radio I carry with me and the radio that's in the car. Boots, trousers... signs as well. Who's seen, who's seen police signs out the back of police cars that says... slow down, danger? Yes,c or another sign that they put up by the side of the road is... was you passing this spot... this time last week... did you see anything. That's in case there'd been a nasty accident, say there was an accident outside... the school today, yes? Tomorrow they'll try and put up a sign to ask anyone who was passing if they saw the accident, yeah? We carry all kinds of equipment, our radio. We carry a little small radio that's the local one so anyone in Harlow carrying a radio would be able to talk... to Harlow police station, yeah?... But there's also a radio in the police cars that you can talk all the way over in Chelmsford which is twenty two, twenty three miles away, so you can t talk to someone in what the Essex Police call their information room, that's another piece of equipment. Another piece of equipment we've got is a pocket notebook, we write down everything we do. When I go back to the police station I'll write today that I've been at Harlowbury School all day doing a school visit and a school talk to different classes. That's my pocket notebook and I keep it up to date, that's another piece of equipment I use. Another piece of equipment I use is my boots, my shoes, my trousers, my clever truncheon pocket, it's a long thin pocket which I can put the truncheon in and it hides away. I didn't bring it here cos I'm not allowed to hurt my knee... yeah? All bits, other bits of equipment as well, you've got... sometimes in the back of police cars you've got... brooms and shovels to clear the mess up off the road, yeah have you seen a policeman clearing up the road, saving people [speaker001:] Yeah, yeah. [Pc Bruce:] driving over it and getting glass in their tyres? Yeah? All kinds of equipment. Different every day cos everything is different all the time, it keeps changing. Does that answer your question?... Great. At the back young man. [speaker001:] Er what was your first idea of what you was gonna be when you grow up in the first place? [Pc Bruce:] What was my first idea when, when I was little? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] I wanted to join the army would you believe but I thought [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I want to join the army. [Pc Bruce:] I wanted to [speaker001:] I want to but I might change. [Pc Bruce:] You might change, exactly, like I did. [speaker001:] My brother's joined the army. [Pc Bruce:] Oh. I might join the ar I wanted to join the army first, yeah, and then I changed my mind. Well I think I changed [speaker001:] Do you wanna be a policeman Oliver? Do you? My brother's a policeman [Pc Bruce:] Yeah a lot of people a lot of people wanna be policemen. [speaker001:] I do too. [Pc Bruce:] But they change their minds they change, they become good at something else. Lot of, a lot of er... lot of people always will change their [speaker001:] Like a road worker. [Pc Bruce:] Like a road worker, anything couldn't they? [speaker001:] Yes I know I'm joining the army. [Pc Bruce:] You wanna join the army do you? Good for you. [speaker001:] Cos [Pc Bruce:] Beg your pardon? [speaker001:] Got it down [LAUGHTER] on a piece of paper []. [Pc Bruce:] Oh have you? What's your question? [speaker001:] Erm why do you have to be strong to be a policeman? [Pc Bruce:] You don't have to be strong to be a policeman. You don't have to that's er that's not totally true. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] You've just gotta have your wits about you that's all. Gotta be erm, not clever, not brainy, I think you've got to have common sense. The greatest a astribut attribute to be a policeman is to have common sense. [speaker001:] What's common sense, you lot? [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Think about it, what's common sense? Think. [speaker001:] Er like if you're really dumb common sense get er [Pc Bruce:] No see no no no, you could be very very clever... very very clever and have absolutely no common sense, you might be, still be a very clever person, be brilliant at maths... but have absolutely no common sense. You might not ha know how [speaker001:] [cough] [Pc Bruce:] when someone says to you er thirty five pence please for a newspaper, you might not have the common sense to realize [speaker001:] You haven't got it. [Pc Bruce:] You haven't got it, exactly. You must have common sense, that's most important. Next question. [speaker001:] What is it like in the police station? [Pc Bruce:] What's it like in the police station, right. Has, does anyone watch The Bill? [speaker001:] Yeah. My dad does. [Pc Bruce:] Right well Shh shh... Have you s watched The Bill, do you watch them when they're inside the police station? It's all [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] it's all hustle and bustle isn't it? And then someone has a conversation with someone else... and then someone else has a conversation with someone else... and if a man was to walk right the way through the police station he has about five or six conversations, and by the time he gets to the other end of the police station he's forgotten the first conversation. It's like Miss, when she walks from... the staff office to here, she could have four conversations and when she gets here she thinks... what was the first conversation about again? It's like that, it's a little bit like... it's a little bit like The Bill because there's about four or five different conversations.... Alright? Next question. Yes young man. [speaker001:] What was it like when you had your police dog? [Pc Bruce:] I have never had a police dog. I've never had, never been on er the special course. A lot of people like it... because basically th er when you look after a police dog it becomes your pet as well, you take it home with you and you take it to work with you, and the u you'll have a police dog for sort of like its working life of seven to eight years, so basically you're gonna have him for seven to eight years and he becomes a fa like a family pet. I've never been on the course so I've never had a police dog. Yes? [speaker001:] Why do you want to be a policeman? [Pc Bruce:] Why did I want to be a policeman. I don't know really. I always, I always, when I first wanted er when I was at school I always wanted to join the army... and then I changed my mind and then I wanted to join the police force. And then I forgot about the idea and I just drifted into something else. Then it, then I saw an advert in the local paper and I thought yeah, I'll do that, I'll try and become a policeman. I sent away and passed the exams and I became a policeman, but I always wanted to become a policeman when I, from about eighteen or nineteen... it's just that I drifted the wrong way. Yes? [speaker001:] What is it like in jail? [Pc Bruce:] What's it like in jail. I've never been in jail and I never wanna find out what it's like in jail but if you actually ever go to the police station, Harlow police station, they sometimes let people up there and do tours, no one likes being left in the cell... cos when the door closes it's very very small and it's very claustrophobic, and it's not very nice. So if I, I wouldn't, my answer to that is never go to jail cos it's, you're losing your freedom aren't you? You can't go down to the shops, you can't go round your mum's, you can't go to your auntie's, you're losing your freedom. And even in just the police station, in the small holding cells they have, it's not very nice. I personally would not like to be held in a c in a prison. I'm not that way inclined, I like to go for a walk and have the fresh air on me and everything. Yes? [speaker001:] Where do you er keep all your, all the erm equipment that you take with you? [Pc Bruce:] Right. I we've all got lockers, you know like you've got a locker here for your books and everything? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] We've all got a big long... locker where we put all our different coats in and our boots and all our other equipment like a long thing [speaker001:] I've seen it on The Bill. [Pc Bruce:] That's it, yes, like the lockers they use on The Bill, yes, that's, very similar to that, that's where, and you, and what, it's what's known as... erm the locker room or the cha Yeah that's, that's right, yes. Your question? [speaker001:] Well do you run after people? [Pc Bruce:] Have I run after people. Yes I do. At the moment I couldn't cos I've got a bad knee but I have run after people and caught people, yes. Because I'm getting a bit old I have a tendency to get out of breath. But I have run after people, yes. Yes young man? [speaker001:] Why do policemen, why do policemen need dogs? [Pc Bruce:] Why do they need dogs, because their dogs [speaker001:] their smell. They track down drugs. [Pc Bruce:] The class has an answered it for you, the class has answered it. They can track people down, they're very good They're not supposed to bite you see, they're supposed to chase and bark at someone and hold them there by barking and hope right that the police will turn up. That's the idea. [speaker001:] Shh shh shh shh [Pc Bruce:] No you ma don't make it free for all. [speaker001:] And because they smell along the floor. [Pc Bruce:] That's right,the their, their nose is very [speaker001:] Shh [Pc Bruce:] their nose is very sensitive and I, if someone wa if someone walks across grass, yeah? Where the shoe touches the grass it crushes the grass and releases juices and smells from the grass. Me and you can't smell it but the dog [speaker001:] Can. [Pc Bruce:] can, the dog can. [speaker001:] Cos he's got something in his nose so he can smell anything. [Pc Bruce:] He's got very... he's very sensitive cells in his nose because, cos a dog used to be a hunting dog, and goes back to being a wolf, they used to track their prey to eat so they've still got that ability and we haven't, but a dog has, it can smell. Next question, at the back. [speaker001:] Erm do you erm drive after people and stop them from driving fast? [Pc Bruce:] I certainly do yes, but the ma the majority of that is done by traffic police, by traffic police. We do... we, the ordinary shift... does that but usually that's traffic police... who do it. [speaker001:] How many people have you caught? [Pc Bruce:] How many people have I caught, I couldn't tell you cos I've never kept a record. I've got one friend who has written down in a diary... every person he's ever re arrested, I don't do that, I just, I, I can't be bothered to write it all down. Too long, waste too much time. Yes? [speaker001:] Do you have to be there for a certain amount of time? [Pc Bruce:] That's all down... if you're talking about jail, prison, that's all down to the m remember I went, talking to you about the court? That's all down to the magist [speaker001:] court? [Pc Bruce:] To the courts, to the magistrates, remember that man, the judge, it's all down to him and the jury, it's not down to the police. It's wh that's everyone goes to court because it's... it's down to the er ju what they call the judicial system to work it out what it is. [speaker001:] My mother used to be in [Pc Bruce:] Did she? Good for her. Well done. Yes? [speaker001:] Have you any,ev, have you ever put anyone in jail before? [Pc Bruce:] Have I ever put anyone in jail, right, when you mean jail do you mean the police station or prison? [speaker001:] Prison. Prison. [Pc Bruce:] Prison, right. To actually get someone to prison is exceptionally hard. To get what they call, big word, custodial sentence, to actually give someone a custodial sentence is exceptionally hard. I personally, in all the cases I've dealt with, which is seven and a half years, have only ever really gone to magistrates court but I've got two cases going to crown court soon, but it's exceptionally hard and to answer your question, I actually have never fou never got anyone to go to prison yet. Alright? Yes? [speaker001:] Do you er like are you one of those people like if you hear about a death [Pc Bruce:] Mhm? [speaker001:] are you one of those people who go to the house of erm... if a member of the family's dead? [Pc Bruce:] You mean like if say, terrible thing to say, if someone in the family dies, do you mean if I'm the person who goes and tells the relatives, the mum and dad or anything like, yeah [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] I've done that and that isn't very nice. I went, I had to tell a lady that her husband had died er about two Christmases ago, two days before Christmas.... Her husband died in a car accident and I had to go and tell his wife. [speaker001:] It must have been before, after my birthday then. [Pc Bruce:] [LAUGHTER] Oh probably then. [speaker001:] just before Christmas then. [Pc Bruce:] Yes? [speaker001:] If erm... a lady, if erm a wife is on fire and it was just a wife living in the house [Pc Bruce:] Mm? [speaker001:] erm would erm... if you'd known about it would erm you go and tell the firemen or would the firemen just find out [Pc Bruce:] Of course. [speaker001:] theirselves? [Pc Bruce:] Of course,i er sometimes people phone up the Fire Brigade and the Fire Brigade get to the fire [speaker001:] First. [Pc Bruce:] fire first, sometimes the police, if it's a really serious fire, get there first but the real professionals when it comes to a fire are the Fire Brigade. So if the lady was on fire, you'd leave it basically to the Fire Brigade, obviously if you could help the lady, get a ladder up to the window to get her out of the room or something like that, you would do that, you would help in any way you can, but the real experts are the Fire Brigade so we leave all the er real technical stuff to the Fire Brigade. [speaker001:] My br erm my step-brother erm lived in a flat and, and the flat got on fire and they had to climb out the window and jump out [Pc Bruce:] Not very nice. Not very nice. [speaker001:] and the lady catched him. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah? It's not very nice because everyone thinks a fire is flames but the really dangerous thing is smoke and you literally can't breathe in the smoke. I've been to a fire where there was a huge black cloud coming out of a, a flat [speaker001:] That's what happened to me [Pc Bruce:] and it was and you couldn't get near it because the heat of the fire was so strong and the smell of the... of the smoke was overpow you literally couldn't get near it and everyone had to come away. Yes? [speaker001:] Well how do you know that someone's burgling something? [Pc Bruce:] How do you know that someone's burgled something. Sometimes they phone you up. Sometimes, yes. But you're talking about people who actually do it are you? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Right. Sometimes they leave their fingerprints there so they get what's known as the Scenes of Crime Officer or what they call like all po well like all forces [speaker001:] But what if they've got gloves on? [Pc Bruce:] Difficult. There might be a, there might be a security camera there that catches them coming in. There might be a witness next door. [speaker001:] There might be footprints. [Pc Bruce:] There might be footprints, there could be anything, several things and the... all those type of things is what helps the police to try and catch the people [speaker001:] Now what I was thinking was erm... you know, what I wondered was, shall we do er a circular game and, get yourselves into a circle quickly [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh come on, quick now. [speaker001:] ... because we always do a lo we always collects words in our classes [Pc Bruce:] Oh yeah? [speaker001:] we're good at collected words Police words [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh. [speaker001:] Right so that's what I thought, we could s collect some police words now, alright? And we've gotta go around and you have to think of one word to do with police until we stop until we run out of them. Oh I know one. Police [Pc Bruce:] Right. [speaker001:] Okay? Right I'll just see who's looking smart to start.... So I hope you've all thought of one word, right, if somebody else has said it before you you've gotta think quick and think of something else. Right? Who shall I start with?... Som oh P C can choose. [Pc Bruce:] Mm mm mm mm mm... you. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] Truncheon.... Gun.... Hat.... Coat. Boots.... Trousers [LAUGHTER] What are those things on your shoulders? [Pc Bruce:] Epaulettes. Epaulettes, good girl. [speaker001:] Erm coats. Said that. Said that.... Erm... [whispering] [] Right, car. Police siren. Handcuffs. Handcuffs, there's a word isn't it? Murderer. Urgh Jail. Jail. Er burglary. Burglary.... Er come back to Andrew shall we?... Nigel... Court. Court. Boots. We've had that. Had that. Another police word. Dog. We've had that. Shh Tie. Tie? Right. A really nasty word, right Officer Officer, that's a good word. Car keys. Car keys.... Pad. Pad. If you can't think of one, pass, alright? Cos we've run out of Miss I've got one. Go on, back again.... [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh [speaker001:] Pass if you can't think of one. Socks. Socks. [LAUGHTER] That's not really a police word is it? Shield. Oh a shield, yes. Er that thing he's got on his... the number thing. Oh his number. [Pc Bruce:] Collar numbers. Well done. Collar numbers. [speaker001:] Right.... [LAUGHTER] Shirt. A shirt right, okay, but really good words now from some of the things he's told us like going to... Court. We've had that. Right we need some more words.... I know one ... Erm hat Hat, well [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh shh... [speaker001:] A really good word, come on, some, some criminal words Policeman Eh? Policeman. Two two two four. Oh right! Skill. Oh a skill, that's a good one. Police station. Police station, nobody's said that. Right.... Can't hear it.... [whispering] gas mask []... Gas mask. Oh gas mask. [Pc Bruce:] Judge. [speaker001:] Judge. [LAUGHTER] Judge, judge. Any more? Nicked, well that's a good word, I like that, go on. Nicked, you're nicked.... Any more now? Cos you've all... twice. Stole. [Pc Bruce:] Stole.... [speaker001:] Truncheon. Truncheon. Fire Brigade. Fire Brigade.... Fireman, we're on to firemen now, what, why do policemen, what do policemen go to the houses for? They go to tell about A crime. Crimes and Murder. Murderer. Murders and We've said that. Pardon? Car crash. Oh car crashes... Burglaries. burglaries. I said that. Stab. Stabbings We've had burglaries. Deaths.... The handprints and the Oh handprints and fingerprints Blood. Urgh Blood Oh clues, good boy. Kidnapped. Kidnapped, that's a good one. Guns. Guns. Had that. Papers. Oh loads of papers Caught in the act! That's a good one. Police car. Erm David's got one.... [Pc Bruce:] What kind of policemen are there? [speaker001:] Officers. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah, what kind?... [speaker001:] Er Miss, Miss.... Officers Traffic police. traffic police Er C I D C I D [Pc Bruce:] Well done. [speaker001:] Train policemen. Oh yes. Yes they look after the trains. Railway police they're called aren't they? Oh The Bill. Miss I know! Ah yeah! [Pc Bruce:] Hands down, hands down because erm... we've got to go and change to another class now to [speaker001:] Miss, I've got one. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh shh Hands down, hands down. Right. Thank you very much for asking so many questions, thank you for all the words at the end, they'll come in useful. [speaker001:] I've got one. They're not actually in a conversation but we always do that sort of thing anyway. [Pc Bruce:] Could do couldn't you? Right all sit down show me how quiet er how quietly you can sit. [speaker001:] Right.... [Pc Bruce:] Thank you very much for asking all the questions and thank you very much for working so hard for Tony. [speaker001:] Thank you.... Right, we'll say thank you P C and thank you Tony. Thank you P C and Tony. [Pc Bruce:] You're welcome and thank you Thank you. [speaker001:] and... they're a nice lot aren't they P C? [Pc Bruce:] Not bad, there's one or two characters but [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] on, on, on the whole they're not too bad, yeah [speaker001:] Well [Pc Bruce:] hard workers. [speaker001:] they're all characters, they're great. Stand up... shh... Hey, come back. I remember saying two words Go and sit down again and Stand up. sit down again the lot of you. Why? Because I said stand up quietly.... Right now we've got to, I'll send Andrew who's, who's a sensible boy, he can open the door quietly for you.... And then you can go back and get a reading book out cos we haven't had reading [now moved to another class?] say walkie-talkie [Pc Bruce:] Yeah that's okay, that's a good, yeah you can say [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] What, what would you say, what would you say, what is the proper word then for Police what? What's the proper word for nick nicking someone as you keep saying? [speaker001:] Arrest. [Pc Bruce:] You arrest someone.... [speaker001:] Are you allowed to say alcohol? [Pc Bruce:] Yeah if you wanna say alcohol, yes. Right. Right, right... yeah that's, that's okay, that's a good word, yeah. Shh shh shh. Right this gentleman here is Tony and he's recording this lesson he's recording this lesson, okay? He wants to hear everyone use words. I'm gonna be talking, Miss is gonna be talking, but you're gonna be talking. We, he wants us to hea hear... the words spoken, spoken words, yeah? So he wants to hear people talk. But he doesn't wanna hear everyone have a free for all, if you've got something to say, well say it. [speaker001:] Put your hand up. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah. Well done.... What are we talking about, what's the subject? Is it, is it [speaker001:] Space. [LAUGHTER] Well [] yes in actual fact our topic at the moment is weather and space. [Pc Bruce:] Weather and space. How we gonna fit that in with [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [] [Pc Bruce:] Right you can ask [speaker001:] ... aliens. But we were sort of, begin to look at [Pc Bruce:] [tut] [whispering] Aliens []. What do I know about aliens? [speaker001:] weather in other countries and that's why I think [Pc Bruce:] Right okay then we'll talk about [speaker001:] Oh! Actually, saying that, sorry, we did start talking about the F B I. [Pc Bruce:] The F B I, right, the F B I who er the F B I, who knows what the F... B... I stands for? What d [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Wanna say goodbye?... What does the F B I stand for? [speaker001:] Federal Bureau of Investigations. [Pc Bruce:] Federal Bureau of Investigation, right, where is... or where do, the F B I work? Think about it and no shouting out. Where do the F B I work?... [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] What country? Think about it. [speaker001:] I know. America. [Pc Bruce:] Good lad, America. Who knows where their headquarters is? Where's their headquarters? [speaker001:] New York. [Pc Bruce:] New York, is it? Shh... who's calling out? Wanna say goodbye? Fast becoming a pain. You can join him outside if you want. Go. [speaker001:] Washington C, Washington D C. [Pc Bruce:] Close enough. Do you know the actual name of the town where the headquarters is? [speaker001:] [shouting] I know []. Police station. [Pc Bruce:] No, police station! [speaker001:] Er [Pc Bruce:] No. Hands, it's a place called Quantick [speaker001:] Quantick [Pc Bruce:] Quantick okay?... Erm ou the man who runs Harlow Police Station, Chief Superintendent Mick, went there about eight weeks ago, to the headquarters of the F B I. The F B I was set up to fight criminals in America. What is the famous boss, or the old famous boss, of the F B I? He's [speaker001:] I know. [Pc Bruce:] he's, he died a little while ago. [speaker001:] John F Kennedy. [Pc Bruce:] John F Kennedy? No no no no no. The famous boss of the F B I was, let's all say it, J Edgar Hoover. [speaker001:] J Edgar Hoover. [Pc Bruce:] And he was set up to fight crime... federal crime... in America, right? So let's work out where the federal crime comes in. At the bottom there's America and America is divided up into states, the states of America, right? And within the states, each state, there are towns... areas, whatever and [speaker001:] Villages. [Pc Bruce:] Villag anything at all, certain areas, and they are divided up into small... police forces within a state, yeah? The small police forces are covered by what's known as the state police, so you've got... the town police, or the county police... then you've got the state police and you've also got what's known as the highway police, the state highway police, yeah? And above them you've got the F B I which means the F B I could come to your state and they would control all the police work, but they could go to another state, whereas all the state police could only work within one state. Have I explained that [speaker001:] Mhm [Pc Bruce:] have I explained that properly? [speaker001:] Mm. [Pc Bruce:] Have I explained that properly one and all? [speaker001:] Yes. [Pc Bruce:] Right, right. So there's the... the top police, the F B I... the state police... and the local county police, yeah? [speaker001:] You've missed the highway [Pc Bruce:] And, and the highway police are up there with the state police, they can go anywhere within the state, yeah? [speaker001:] Mm. [Pc Bruce:] F B I... state police... and at the bottom county police, yeah, understand that? [speaker001:] Yeah. Which are you? [Pc Bruce:] Which am I? I'm another one here down at the bottom, I'm a county police [speaker001:] County police. [Pc Bruce:] because England hasn't got an F B I. [speaker001:] It doesn't need one, there's not many crimes. [Pc Bruce:] America has got Pardon? [speaker001:] Not many crimes in Harlow, in er England. [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] There isn't many crimes in England? [speaker001:] Not as much as America. [Pc Bruce:] [whistling] Wake up! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Right, there's no F B I, no F B I, there isn't a F B I in England right? There isn't an F B I in England because... there isn't a state police. France have got a state police, and I've forgotten what they're called, C R S, they are what's known as the C R S and they are ri riot police and they go anywhere in the country. England hasn't got it, England hasn't got... what they would call a national police force. We have got all the little ones, the county police forces. If anyone was to take on the role of the state police it would be the Metropolitan Police Force who have got experts... and if say something happened in Manchester like... an I R A bombers... left some bombs in Manchester, experts from the Metropolitan Police would go to Manchester to help out, they're what's known as the Anti-Terrorist Squad [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [Pc Bruce:] but they are still Metropolitan Police officers. Make sense? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Pc Bruce:] Understand that? [speaker001:] Mhm. [Pc Bruce:] Have I explained that? Everyone understand that? [speaker001:] Yes. [Pc Bruce:] Okay then. What else do you wanna know? Anything else? [speaker001:] Perhaps you could tell P C some of the things to do with the investigation that were in the programme, what, sorry go on Craig, yeah? There was a fire at Mr 's store and they called it arson. [Pc Bruce:] Well done, that's a good word, when we use our little circle of words you can use that word, yeah? Just the one. [speaker001:] take over a they call it copyright infringement. [Pc Bruce:] Copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is someone [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] they've learnt something this morning [] [Pc Bruce:] Yes. Copyright infringement, good one. It, that's used in what's known as fraud, yeah? The computer fraud is becoming a big business, yeah? Good word. What other questions?... anyone s go on then. courage [speaker001:] There's another word for copyright infringement. [Pc Bruce:] What's that? [speaker001:] Bootlegging. Bootlegging. [Pc Bruce:] Bootlegging, yes. Bootlegging. Do you know bootlegging as well there's another one, you see the tapes in machines, yeah? Someone will take... where is it? [speaker001:] There isn't one in there. [Pc Bruce:] Someone will take a microphone... to a concert and you'll hear, say a band, any band you wanna think of, say what er who shall we say? [speaker001:] Genesis. Take That. [Pc Bruce:] Take That, we'll say Take That, a man sits he takes a tape in and he... records the whole concert. He then got it there, he then takes that tape and plays another tape... he makes a? [speaker001:] Records it all. Bootleg. [Pc Bruce:] He makes a bootleg. Right. [speaker001:] It doesn't come out very well though all the time. [Pc Bruce:] No it doesn't come out all the time... very well. Why are you an expert on mm mm mm? [speaker001:] No. All you've gotta do is [Pc Bruce:] Right it's a bootleg it's a bootleg, that's it, it's a good word, bootleg. But it, but that would be a fraud because you're, you're... Yeah? That'd be a fraud, a kind of fraud, yeah? Great word. Anything else you've learnt in th on your course? [speaker001:] Bootlegging was a long time ago when er the people wasn't allowed to [Pc Bruce:] Bootlegging's still happening now, it still goes on now, and it still causes the music industry... lots to lose, lots and lots of money, lots and lots of money. Any other questions?... Any other questions, come on think about it? [speaker001:] What were the children doing in the programme? Investigating Oh yeah they were investigating [Pc Bruce:] Investigating. That's what police officers do, they investigate crimes, they investigate crimes. [speaker001:] The federals. [Pc Bruce:] What's known as the uniform branch turn up to investigate a crime, I hope you're all listening Yeah, the uni er the uniform branch turn up to investigate a crime and if they find fingerprints they will get what's known as a scenes of crime officer... to take the fingerprints off... the wall, yeah? But they'll also get the C I D, they'll get a detective to come along and help investigate the crime, so we investigate the crimes like you did on your computer course, yeah? We do our own investigations, yeah? Happy with that? [speaker001:] Mm. Erm... on this film I saw when they was getting the fingerprints they had this sort of like little cloth in a bag and they sort of [Pc Bruce:] That's right, yes. Because e if you all look at your fingerprints now, you're looking at, no one else in the world has got fingerprints like you've got. They are all individual, no one 's got the same fingerprints that you've got. They're not the same, can you see there's little circles, little whirls, little loops, little arches [speaker001:] No. [Pc Bruce:] yeah? You have a look, everything is different. No one in the world has got fingerprints like you've got because we are all different. Right? Right I think we'll have working now cos I'm drying up quickly.... First word, use a good, a good police word. [speaker001:] I know. Gun. Shh. [Pc Bruce:] Gun, yeah. [speaker001:] Court. [Pc Bruce:] Court, well done. [speaker001:] Handcuffs. [Pc Bruce:] Handcuffs. [speaker001:] Prison. [Pc Bruce:] Prison.... Pardon? Drinking? Drink driving, that's good enough. [speaker001:] Arson. [Pc Bruce:] Arson. [speaker001:] Jail. [Pc Bruce:] Jail. [speaker001:] Keys. [Pc Bruce:] Keys. [speaker001:] Fingerprints. [Pc Bruce:] Fingerprints. What did I call that person who comes what did I call it? [speaker001:] Shh! Something I can't remember [Pc Bruce:] Can't remember? Alright then. Crikey. Speak up loud, you've gotta be... speak up loud and clear.... No. Uniform. [speaker001:] Uniform. [Pc Bruce:] Uniform. [speaker001:] Detective. [Pc Bruce:] Detective, well done. [speaker001:] Crime. [Pc Bruce:] Crime, well done.... [speaker001:] Copyright infringement. [Pc Bruce:] Copyright infringement. [speaker001:] Bars. [Pc Bruce:] Bars. [speaker001:] F I B. [Pc Bruce:] F I B? [speaker001:] F B I. [Pc Bruce:] F B I. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] walkie talkie. Sierra oscar? That's a call sign, sierra oscar, what does, okay then, sierra oscar, what does it stand for? [speaker001:] I dunno, a car. [Pc Bruce:] What is it, a car, yeah, but why? What are they using when they call that out? Sierra oscar [speaker001:] C erm to Mayday. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh shh. No no no it's a special, it's a special [speaker001:] I know! [Pc Bruce:] it's a special language... yeah? Right what's your name? [speaker001:] Craig. [Pc Bruce:] Craig? Craig, your name is charlie romeo alpha india golf. [speaker001:] No I'm not. [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] What is your second name? , well how do you spell it? [speaker001:] [] [Pc Bruce:] Hold on, [] that is charlie oscar november... [speaker001:] [] [Pc Bruce:] yankee... alpha... romeo... delta. That's, that's the alphabet you're using, and you're using, you said sierra oscar. So that, what they're saying is sierra stands for S, oscar stands for O. It's a way of remembering complicated... a way of remembering index numbers, your name, because if someone goes to you S O... it's quite easy to forget it, but if someone said sierra oscar, an hour later you'd go what was that? what was that? I can't remem oh sierra oscar, I've remembered. It's a way of re making things [speaker001:] I knew it cos I've watched The Bill. [Pc Bruce:] Well yeah, exactly. Next question? [speaker001:] D I, D C I [Pc Bruce:] D C I, yeah I'll give you that one, detective chief inspector, ooh and who do you know who's a detective chief inspector? [speaker001:] Assault. [Pc Bruce:] Ass assault, well done. [speaker001:] Arrest. [Pc Bruce:] Arrest, well done, good word. [speaker001:] Offices. [Pc Bruce:] Offices, yeah, we all need offices. [speaker001:] Murder. [Pc Bruce:] Murder, good word. [speaker001:] Bootlegging. [Pc Bruce:] Bootlegging, well done, we've all gone round [speaker001:] I haven't Oh! [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] [LAUGHTER] Go on, a word from you. [speaker001:] jacket. Jasper Carrott, he's supposed to Shh shh. [LAUGHTER] fingerprints did they? [Pc Bruce:] Fingerprints, yeah. They're not walkie talkies, they're a radio. We've got two kinds of radio, we have one radio we carry ourselves [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] which is for local and one in the car which is county wide, which can cover the whole of Essex, yeah? [speaker001:] Not on them little boxes. [Pc Bruce:] Not on them little ones, no, you have to have special adaptors to make those little ones go everywhere. Yes? Hold on a second shh. [speaker001:] If you, if you arrest someone for murder would you say suspicion of first degree murder? [Pc Bruce:] No. Right that's, that's, you see you're getting the American stuff but... when you're arrested you are always arrested on suspicion... because in this country you are innocent until a cou a court proves you're i er guilty, yeah? I can't arrest you and say guilty cos you have to go to court, so you would always be arrested on suspicion of murder. Cos if you went to court and you was innocent and you got off, that's it.... The police only enforce the law, they can't make the law work, the people who make the law work are the judiciary. I said, did I say that right? Judiciary, yeah, big word of the day, judiciary. You are always arrested on suspicion, a suspicion of something, yeah? And someone will say I'm arresting you on suspicion of murder [speaker001:] Erm... if you see the murder happen can you say... erm that... you are guilty? [Pc Bruce:] No. I can give evidence that I s right... for, say, we'll go back to his, his er idea, suspicion of murder, I can say I saw him take a hammer... and whack him, split his head open, he dropped down dead. I could give evidence on that, yeah? But I still can't make him guilty. Only a judge and a jury can make him... guilty. That's why police officers have to go to magistrate's courts, and crown courts, to give evidence. But it is the magistrate or, or a er a crown court judge and jury who make him guilty. I can only give evidence and if they don't believe my evidence, he's innocent. If they believe mine... evidence, he's guilty. Yeah? What? [speaker001:] Erm in America I think it is erm they carry them black th they're black erm... things Poles. they carry around w they carry around with them. Truncheon. [Pc Bruce:] Like a truncheon? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Right they're called... a pacifier. They're, they're like... a long stick with a handle on them aren't they? Yeah. There is an i there is an idea afoot to bring them to this country, to let policemen, cos the policeman's truncheon is only short... [break in recording] use them someone has to be close but these pacifiers can be a offensive weapon and a defensive weapon. Yeah? But that's gonna take about five or six years to come to frui fruition because all the er chief constables are talking about it and if anything works slowly it's chief constables. They're called a pacifier and you can sort of like use them to strike and to defend yourself with them yeah? [speaker001:] Are you allowed to use bulletproof jackets. [Pc Bruce:] Are you allowed to use bulletproof jackets, yes. I wouldn't use a bulletproof, well... in certain circumstances I might, but I'm not trained to carry a firearm so I wouldn't use a... I, hopefully, I won't get selected to go into a house where I need to wear a bulletproof uniform. You have to go on special courses to carry guns [speaker001:] What the army? [Pc Bruce:] in this... No it's a special, it's a different tactic. In the army they fire bullets and they have their big powerful bullets and the idea is... that the bullet... comes through her, travels across, goes through her and goes into him so there's [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] one, two, three casualties so it will take four people to carry her, four people to carry her, four people to carry him, that is sixteen, that is, altogether, twelve plus three, fifteen people we've taken out of the battle, yeah?... Whereas a police... bullets... they wanna hit her and stay in here. Because what's the point of hitting her, coming through her, travelling half a mile [speaker001:] You might hit another [Pc Bruce:] and kill a innocent person. And we don't want that to happen, and we have different kinds of bullets that hit her and stay there. [speaker001:] Oh like them er put out ones what, like the darts? [Pc Bruce:] Totally different. Totally different. We just want it to stay there, different calibre, different power... and different altogether. We don't, we just want the guilty person shot, we don't want the guilty person shot, come out... hit the innocent person. Yeah? Cos we would be in trouble. Yeah? Agree? [speaker001:] Have they just got Colt revolvers? [Pc Bruce:] Well... you're watching the Americans again. You've been watching the Americans, they, cos the Americans, why do American police officers carry guns? [speaker001:] Self defence. [Pc Bruce:] No. Self defence, but there is something important that allows American police officers to carry their guns It's not crime, it's got nothing to do with crime, it's got nothing to do with cowboys and indians [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] it's got nothing to do with self defence. [speaker001:] Cos you can, cos er other people can buy guns in America.... He has his moments. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah! He has his moments doesn't he? Yes there is something ticking away in there. Right. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Under the c under the constitution of America, big word, constitution of America, it is written into the constitution of America... all, I think it goes, all... militia men... militia men and men can bear arms for their country which basically reads they can defend their country, they can have a gun in their house to defend their country. But what it meant is it got read, written into the constitution, it meant that everyone can buy a gun. So if everyone's got a gun [speaker001:] What even a ten year old kid? [Pc Bruce:] Well we've, think about it, common sense.... The policeman's gotta carry the gun because if everyone else in the country has a gun, the policeman needs a gun. Yeah? Makes sense. Because it's written into the constitution that all men can bear arms to defend the country. So everyone goes out, buys a gun and when a policeman says why have you got that gun? Er if there's a war I'm gonna defend my country with that gun. It's a load of rubbish but everyone does it, everyone carries a gun. But there was, but each state has different legislation, yeah? Each state has, in some states you can be eighteen... and carry a gun but in another state you've gotta be twenty one, they make all different laws. That's why it's very very hard to get rid of the guns in America, cos there's so many about. Yeah? [speaker001:] Do they just carry hand guns? [Pc Bruce:] They can carry hand guns, they can carry rifles they can [speaker001:] Machine guns. Machine guns... cos [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Think about it. Be, use common sense, you're not er you're not that daft to say bazookas. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Yeah? And who, who has seen certain films where someone just walks into it, shows his driving licence and he buys a gun, yeah? [speaker001:] No, I've seen Terminator, he does. [Pc Bruce:] I knew he was gonna say [LAUGHTER] I knew you was gonna get Terminator in the convers [], he said it out there didn't he? Sooner or later he's gonna get Terminator in the conversation. Yeah. Shh shh. Shh shh. Yes okay then use, use a bad, use a bad example, yes did you see Terminator when Arnold [mimicking] Schwarzeneger walks into the shop [], yeah? Did you see him [speaker001:] bullet out and k kills a man. [Pc Bruce:] Yeah, he, he it was literally b literally like going up to the shop and buying a newspaper. All he has to do is show he's over a certain age... can prove who he is, you can buy a gun. It is that easy. [speaker001:] You just buy a machine gun. [Pc Bruce:] That is the reason, that is why, the reason why all police officers in America carry guns. It's not that they need them, it's because they know everyone else has got them. Yeah? [speaker001:] They need [Pc Bruce:] And here's, here's, hold on a minute here's, here's something else here's a statistic, in America... in America, when a policeman, every time a policeman fires his gun... and I'm not talking about one or two I'm talking everyone, it's a statistic, you all know what statistics is I hope? Statistics. Every time a policeman in America, every four times... a policeman in America, that could be a policeman in New York, a policeman in Los Angeles, a policeman in Boston and a policeman in Seattle... yeah? [speaker001:] Or Chicago. [Pc Bruce:] Within... Well whatever, yeah. Right? Shh. Of those four usually shoots... the person they er... the person they shoot, yeah? The person they're after shooting. The other [speaker001:] Punch him. [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] You say that... you say that but can I punch you? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] [shouting] Hold on a second []... here's one, can I punch you? Think about it,com are you with us? Cooee! [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Are you with... can I punch you, can I punch you?... [speaker001:] No.... [Pc Bruce:] Can I punch Miss? [speaker001:] Yeah. Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] I can punch Miss can I? Shh shh shh think about it. Hold on, no no no, calm down. Think about it. [speaker001:] Need to get through me first. [Pc Bruce:] Eh? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Can I do it? Think about it, it's a game we're playing, think about it.... Yeah? Can I go up and punch Miss? [speaker001:] Yeah. No. Yes. Yes. No. [Pc Bruce:] Who says yes? Who says yes? Who says no? You're both right and you're both wrong. [speaker001:] Because, because she's done nothing. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh. Keep going, keep going, you're a his moments doesn't he? He does have moments. Shh. [speaker001:] She's done nothing, she's done nothing to hurt you. [Pc Bruce:] Keep going. [speaker001:] some reason. [Pc Bruce:] Keep, shh shh shh, keep going. [speaker001:] She's not guilty. [Pc Bruce:] You're, you're on the right lines, you're on the right lines. She has done? [speaker001:] Nothing [Pc Bruce:] Nothing wrong. Yeah. Right, if she's done nothing wrong... if er if she's done nothing [speaker001:] Shh [Pc Bruce:] Can you answer this question? Oh right. Right. If she's done nothing wrong, right? And I walk up and punch her... what, what, what have I done, think about it, what have I done? Think about it. [speaker001:] Assault.... [Pc Bruce:] Think about it. Without shouting out, you're right, I've assaulted her. Was that assault on her... justified? She's done, she's [speaker001:] though? [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh, she's done nothing, she's done nothing wrong and I've assaulted her... was the assault justified? She's done nothing wrong. [speaker001:] No. She [Pc Bruce:] Is it justified? [speaker001:] No. [Pc Bruce:] Right. Fair enough. I, when I ass when a policeman... assaults someone it has got to be... justified.... Yes, right then, same thing Miss comes at me... with a knife and she attempts to stab me and she means it, she wants to stab me and she means it [speaker001:] So you can [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh. I then defend myself and assault Miss, I assault Miss, yeah? She's trying her hardest to stab me, and I assault her. Is the assault justified? [speaker001:] Yes. [Pc Bruce:] Who agrees with him? Yes. [speaker001:] Me. [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] You're right, yeah, it has to be justified. If I just walk across, you're sitting there, and just kick someone... is it justified? [speaker001:] No. [Pc Bruce:] I've got no right to do it, I break the law like anyone else. Yeah? I break the law like anyone else. [speaker001:] You can be put in jail. [Pc Bruce:] I can be put in jail, yeah. Exactly the same. When I assault someone it has to be... justified. Yeah? Pardon? Right. Let's go one rou round again, we've had enough words, we'll go the other way... good police word, go [speaker001:] Police dog. [Pc Bruce:] Police dog. You've gotta speak up loud.... yeah. [speaker001:] Uniform. Jerseys. Body. Police lady. Lock.... Erm... erm... number. Account. Sierra oscar. [Pc Bruce:] Good word. [speaker001:] Police horse. [Pc Bruce:] Good girl, yeah, [speaker001:] Guilty. [Pc Bruce:] Go again? [speaker001:] Guns. Bootlegging. Police car. Court. Policeman. Jail. Prisoner. Court. County police.... Homicide. [Pc Bruce:] What's a homicide? What is it? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] I knew you'd ask me that []. [Pc Bruce:] Okay then, shh shh shh. Hold on a second, she's used the word homicide [speaker001:] I know what that is. Shh shh shh shh... it's th that is the correct word for what word? Burglary. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh No. Homicide. Homicide is the proper word... for the word I want one of you to come up with. Shh shh shh. It starts with M. [speaker001:] Murder. [Pc Bruce:] Murder. The proper word is homicide. Alright? Where were we? [speaker001:] We've got to do this. [Pc Bruce:] We've finished. [speaker001:] We've got to do this. Law enforcement. [Pc Bruce:] Law enforcement, what a good way to end the conversation. Right... if I can get the video... there is a video somewhere in the police station that shows a lot of different police forces, but it's finding it. It may be too old it's, I think it's about twenty years old [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] and we may not be able to show it to you. But if I can find it [speaker001:] I've got a video that's over twenty years old. [Pc Bruce:] I'll bring it back, but otherwise... good word. So right, the one thing, without calling out, if I assault someone, and that is punch them,kich kick them, hit them, do anything [speaker001:] Murder them. [Pc Bruce:] Shh! There's about five people you can get really to dislike in this class isn't there? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Right.... If I assault someone... and it is not justified, not justified, can I be arrested? [speaker001:] Yes.... [Pc Bruce:] Oh... I'm impressed. You've actually learnt something, hands down... hands down. It's three o'clock. [speaker001:] Yeah well we're gonna stay here cos we've got quarter of an hour and if you want to listen to this that's fine, but if you wanna carry on [Pc Bruce:] Yes alright. [speaker001:] whatever you want to do, but it's not worth doing anything else other than we're going to play a few games... but they're Yes! word games. [LAUGHTER] Okay []? Miss we haven't done our spelling test. Oh well we could have a spelling test instead. No Right can you just move back a little bit more so I can actually Right facing this way... Simon can you turn round as well please, Robert... Right the first game very easy, I'm going to point to somebody, we're going to go through the alphabet, they're going to give me the name of an animal. Oh. When we get to... the ones that we say are awkward... alright, we'll er let you think of... erm a way out, okay? Mm [Pc Bruce:] We've come across it before and there's sometimes there is a little way out so let's see if you can just think of it, so let's start with Craig and we'll go... anti-clockwise.... So starting with A [speaker001:] Er... animal. Right, do we accept that? No. Yeah. Yeah. No. not an animal Er who, well we can't have everybody shouting out. I've got one. Who accepts animal? Who thinks that's... a good answer? It could be any animal. Who does not accept it? [LAUGHTER] Right It could be any animals. okay we'll start again with Craig and... A. Er... [LAUGHTER] erm I've got one Miss. Anteater we've given you two goes, turn round. Miss, Miss, Miss Turn round. No we're still on A really, we haven't got one for A yet. [LAUGHTER] Right, shh! Alli alligator. Right. Er shush... we need to be very quiet, we don't want Bull. Bull, right. Cat. Cat. Erm dog. Dog. Elephant. Elephant.... I know! Hurry up otherwise we have to turn you round. ... No? Erm... I I... Indian elephant. That's what I said, excellent, that's a crafty way of getting out of it, good. ... J Right, too long jaguar turn round. Oh J, J erm... [LAUGHTER] I know one. I want the rest of you thinking. Jaguar. Good girl. Er elephant. Er well... Try again. She got one, we're looking at you Hazel. Oh er koala. Yes, right, koala.... L. L. Er... leopard you get lots of help from everybody else.... Monkey. Oh!... N, N.... I know it. Turn round, come on. Good girl. What did she say? Nice cat.... Erm... penguin. [LAUGHTER] Koala bear. [LAUGHTER] You can go on to R alright, cos we've actually Shh. Shh. Can we have everybody sitting up Peter cos Rabbit. Good girl. Snake. Right.... T... Tarantula. [LAUGHTER] an animal, turn round. U.... Er shh I know Miss, a teddy bear. [LAUGHTER] James, James... Don't know. I think you'd better go next door, you've been warned enough this afternoon. I know Miss. Unicorn. Good boy. Ah I was gonna say unicorn. V? V, I know.... A very [LAUGHTER] Good girl []. Erm Good.... Er I don't know if I can give xylophone cat, it's a good erm [shouting] A cat that can play a xylophone []. X-ray erm fish. X-ray fish, very good, okay. What do you mean by that? There's a fish called an X-ray fish. Yeah I know er Sit up cos we're lounging around and it's still not time yet. Right, this time it's going to be carrying on from, where did we get to X Y Y, yes. Keep going then till we finish the alphabet then we'll do food. Yellow ostrich. Good. Z, zebra. Right, food we're on to now My favourite, good. Erm Bolognaise. I'm out Miss. Oh right. You're out? You should be turned round, that would help us. Hannah, we're on C. C erm I know! Er er Celery. Rick! Out!... Chinese. Good girl. Dog food. [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] We'll give you another chance, I don't think we can actually, well Shh shh shh shh. Think, think of something else.... Hurry up otherwise There isn't one. Right, turn round. Yes there is. D, are you out are you? If I hear anybody else call out they can go next door. Where are we up to? F. No she's out and she's out. Oh, fish.... jam. G! Oh You're out. Oh, what are we doing? G G Oh G. Erm golden egg. Right. [LAUGHTER] fish. [Pc Bruce:] [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] A heavy fish I'd of said. Alright we'll be kind to you, H I... Shh Right, you need to hurry up. Ink. [LAUGHTER] Oh ink. You can't eat ink. Right too long. I we're on. Ice. Ice. Out. Nathan will you sit up so I can see whether you're in or out. In. Right, J. Miss can we come back in? J jam. Right, Natalie, K. Erm... Shh, shh shh. I'm asking Natalie at the moment. Good girl. Sorry?... I know! Erm Too long. Lemon. Good girl. Simon No, you're out. Mrs Jamie's out and he's not James, shh, I'm trying to listen to Steven.... Hurry up otherwise you're out. Erm... No, too long. Matthew's out, Hannah it's you. Nuts. Good girl.... Orange. Good girl.... I'm out. You're out are you? Right erm Q... Too long Gherkin. Quail, yes you can eat, yeah, quail. What did she say? Quail. Right, you in? Yeah. good girl. Erm tea. Tea yes, Craig are you out? You we're on to. Right you're out. Hannah, U Erm... What's she on? Er... No, Hazel? U Erm Ucky stuff? Ucky stuff, no. No that's There isn't. There is. No I can't hear. Shh shh. U, U. No. Right we'll keep going round till somebody's got a U. [shouting] I know [] Is everybody out then? Yogurt. I got one Miss. Everybody out? Yogurt. That's Y. [LAUGHTER] [shouting] Everybody close in [] again. Right, now, I don't want anybody calling out, listen very carefully, you two boys move back Abby. What? You need to listen very carefully. You do not call out, you do not lay around on the floor. If you get the right answer... you may go and get dressed and do not d ti disappear until the bell goes. Dressed. And put your shoes on, get your coat Er Miss 's got a few bits for people there so could you make sure they get... there's some football letters to be given out I think. So nobody actually goes until the bell goes, but you need to be listening Matthew because you don't know what you've got to take to the party yet. Oh, ah, ooh! Right. So I am going to go this way round, right, and I'm going to take some... doughnuts.... I'm going to a party and I'm going to take a monkey. You can't go. I'm going to a party and I'm gonna take a You can't go. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take some monkey nuts. You can't go. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take an elephant. You can't go. Going to the party... and I'm going to take... an apple. You can't go. A tick-tock. You can't go. Erm... er Too long I'm gonna take a Veronica. A what? Veronica.... A Veronica? Yeah, it's a flower. Oh I thought you said a running car then. Igloo An igloo, no. Knickers. Knickers, no. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take... ice. No. Er I'm going to the party and I'm going to take ice cream. No.... I'm going to the party and I'm going to take an apple. No. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take a I know what it is. cat. No. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take a nut. No. A goat. No. Gonna take er... knife. No. A lemon. No. you can come back in a minute and see if it's what you think. I know what it is. A apple? No. Ice cream. No. No. No. Nuts? No. I shall take some dates. I'm going to the party, I'm gonna take... some... No. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take Take care now. No. An elephant? No. Shh shh. Sorry? Elephant, no. Teeth. Teeth? No. An ostrich, no. An orange. An orange, no. Erm an elephant. No. No. take an elephant. An elephant, no. No. Igloo. No. Ice? No. Apple? No. No. Apple. No. I said apple. I mean elephant. [bell ring] Miss I mean elephant. No? Right, No don't t don't tell them. But I thi if it's what I think it is Yes? then I re erm I think that... Er let's see if you think you know what it is. What would Steven take? Erm... an elephant? No. [LAUGHTER] So you were lucky, so you don't know. Right. What did she say Miss? I'm gonna take erm... I'm gonna take my dentist. Oh I know what it is! Shh... A monkey. A monkey, no. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take No. I'm going to the party and I'm gonna take... a hat. You can go.... What she say? Oh! So what you gonna take? Alphabet. Alphabet, no. I'm gonna take... a zebra. Zebra, no. Er lemon. Lemon, no. Lemon. [LAUGHTER] No []. It's worth trying, could, just because she can't take a lemon it doesn't mean you can't take a lemon, I know it. Shh. Apple. Apple, no. Rabbit. Rabbit, no. Igloo. No.... What is it Hannah? I know, I know what it is. a cat. No. It's a chicken. You can go. Is it erm Yes Jamie, excellent, you can have a point for your team. Elephant. No. [shouting] Right we're going to pick [] people then who are sitting up nice which won't be all those people that crawled in front of me.... Hazel, you may go... and Oh that! What it actually was was the, the initial of the person sitting next to you. Oh!

[speaker001:] not his hair, not other things about him, obvious... things about him.... His colour. [Pc Bruce:] What colour was he? [speaker001:] Erm white. [Pc Bruce:] Good lad. He was white.... Obvious things about him again that you might forget, obvious things.... [speaker001:] He had a moustache. [Pc Bruce:] He had a moustache, yes, but I'm talking about really obvious things that we might forget.... Policemen would remember but you might forget, obvious thing... he was white... [speaker001:] Slim. [Pc Bruce:] Good girl. He was slim. And we have done this before haven't we? [LAUGHTER] Yeah he was slim, what else was he? Was he... right at the back. [speaker001:] Quite tall. [Pc Bruce:] He was quite tall. Obvious things about him you forget, right? He was white... slim and quite tall, yeah? Then you can give him the clothes, right I want the clothes. [speaker001:] Erm dark... no light brown leather jacket. [Pc Bruce:] Light brown leather jacket, we'll see in a minute on the video [speaker001:] He had black jeans on and white Cords. shoes. [Pc Bruce:] Black jeans and white cords, we'll see if you're right, it's gonna be on in a minute. [speaker001:] Black shades. [Pc Bruce:] Black shades, when do you mean black shades, like mirror shades yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Right, well done. [speaker001:] Erm he was in his thirties. [Pc Bruce:] He was in his thirties, I would put him in his early thirties, yeah, I'd say he was younger than me. Yeah [speaker001:] He had brown hair. [Pc Bruce:] He had brown, see if you're right in a minute. See if you're right.... [speaker001:] He had a moustache. [Pc Bruce:] He had a moustache, yes. [speaker001:] He had a blue car and [Pc Bruce:] He had a blue car, stop it there, I'll... stop it there, he had a blue car.... What is important about the car? You've gotta remember. [speaker001:] Oh! [Pc Bruce:] Yeah, what have you got to remember about the car? [speaker001:] Registration. [Pc Bruce:] Good girl, the registration number, yeah we had before... once or twice. Right all hands down... and no guesses, no guesses, what was... the number? [speaker001:] Oh! Oh! [Pc Bruce:] No guesses, what was the number?... There you go my man. [speaker001:] M J B three six seven X. [Pc Bruce:] Is he right or is he wrong? [speaker001:] Right. [Pc Bruce:] Who says he's right?... Who says he's wrong?... Top of the class, well done. M J B three six seven X. Cos I've caught you out on that before, yeah. What else do you remember about the man? [speaker001:] He had a deep voice. [Pc Bruce:] He had a deep voice, yeah. I think we've got all of it haven't we? But the important points, what? [speaker001:] His shoes were like plimsoll. [Pc Bruce:] His shoes were like plimsolls, fair enough, yeah, we'll... But the impoi important things to remember, if you can, was his car... his number plate, yeah? He was white... he was slim and he was a tall man. Yeah? Very important. Okay you may not have ever seen him, he may just have been sitting in the car, then remember his colour... maybe his moustache... and then the type of car he had. Can anyone, top of the class, what kind of car was it? [speaker001:] Oh! [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh. What type of car was it?... [speaker001:] Volkswagen. [Pc Bruce:] Volkswagen what?... [speaker001:] Polo? [Pc Bruce:] No, you're guessing. [speaker001:] [tut] [sigh]... It was a hatchback. [Pc Bruce:] ... It was a hatchback. You're gonna see it again [speaker001:] No it's not it's the other one innit? [LAUGHTER] It was blue. [Pc Bruce:] Blue, yes, blue. If you didn't see it, it's a tricky one but... there's a good way, we've brought up a good point as well, if we look at the car... when the car comes up, who said Polo?... Cos it's not a Polo, it's a Jetta, it's the one with the boot but if you can't remember what it is... you can either, did you know the difference between a car with a boot and a car with a hatchback?... Do you know the difference? Do you know the difference? If you don't say, say you don't know the difference and I'll explain. [speaker001:] I don't. [Pc Bruce:] You don't? A hatchback is where all the back comes up here like a Fiesta... yeah? And where... a boot is where only the booty bit comes out the, the, the glass window doesn't come up as well. Understand that? Yeah? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] A hatchback is where it all comes up and it all swings up, the whole back swings up doesn't it? What's that, like a... Ford Fiesta? A little, little Peugeot [speaker001:] A Sierra. [Pc Bruce:] No, a Sierra, a Sierra... the whole lot comes up, yes, but they've now changed to a Sapphire and the Sapphire is just the boot, yeah? So you can explain, if you don't remember the car... remember if it was a hatchback or a boot. It comes in handy, know... a blue car and I think it has a boot, I can't tell you the type of, don't make it up, if you don't kn know, don't make it up. White, slim, early thirties, very tall man, yeah? Very. Would you have said he was slim or very slim? [speaker001:] Slim. I thought he was very slim actually. [Pc Bruce:] I'll go with you, I'd say he was very slim, he was a very slim man. [speaker001:] Thank you [Pc Bruce:] No it's not being horrible to anyone, skinny wasn't he? Yeah?. We'll see how well we got on and how we didn't.... See what we've got. [video comes on]... Whitey type trainers, plimsolls, yeah that's close enough innit?... Who said black trousers?... Are they black? [speaker001:] No, grey. [Pc Bruce:] Grey you could say they were dark, if you didn't know for definite you could say they were dark trousers.... If you don't know don't make it up, don't guess. Who said moustache?... Well done....... yeah? The glasses, well done.... Whitey type, I don't know what they are... casual shoes. M J B three six seven X, well done. It's a Jetta, a V W Jetta.... [video]... Right, when you start... your holiday... been coming here now years and years and years and every year I show you that video, you know that video off by heart, you should do... so when you play, play safe, that's all I'm saying, play safe. Enjoy yourself... but play safe. If someone approaches you... and you don't know them, someone you don't know... is a stranger. Did you see how nice the man was when he started to talk to Jason... oh I'll go and help you... how friendly he was... he was conning him, he was tricking. Just remember play safe, someone you don't know is a stranger, yeah? Now I've frightened you, all have a nice holiday, but play safe. Yeah? Will you do that for me? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Good stuff. I'll see you later. Take care. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Pc Bruce:] You're getting too good, I've gotta che

[speaker001:] long summer break. I just want you to remember the video, someone you don't know is a? Stranger. [Pc Bruce:] Right. You don't take sweets... you to don't... don't take drinks, presents money or [speaker001:] Don't take anything. [Pc Bruce:] That's right, don't take anything. You don't get in someone's car... cos someone you don't know is a? [speaker001:] Stranger. [Pc Bruce:] What can one say? They know it already Miss.... [speaker001:] You've been here lots of times too haven't you. You told us before. [Pc Bruce:] I know I have, yes I know I have. [speaker001:] been here loads of times. And we've watched, and we've watched the video before. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh. And we've watched the video before, yes, and we keep learning and we keep coming to tell you don't we? Because... it keeps happening, boys and girls in their summer holiday keep get getting taken away by people they don't know and nasty things done to them. So all we want you to do is remember the video... remember Pippin... yeah? And play safely till you come back to school next term. Play safe and never go with... strangers. [speaker001:] Strangers. Like James did. never. [Pc Bruce:] Like that James did, yes that little boy of three, James did didn't he? [speaker001:] Two.... [Pc Bruce:] Two or three whatever, I've just been [speaker001:] Two [Pc Bruce:] corrected. Alright. [speaker001:] Two. Who's James? [Pc Bruce:] Thank you Miss. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Pc Bruce:] Will you do one thing before you go though class? Will you promise me when you go home tonight... you be the teachers... and your mum and dad be the children and you tell them all about Stranger Danger and you tell them... you're never gonna go with strangers and see what your mum and dad says to you. Yeah, will you do that for me? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Well done. [speaker001:] They don't live with me. [Pc Bruce:] Oh [speaker001:] I always tell him that. [Pc Bruce:] Good man. Thank you very much indeed, thanks for your time. See you later class.

[speaker001:] about his car... I wanna know about... three things about him.... Not his clothes... not his car... not his moustache... not the things he was wearing, three obvious things about that man. Three obvious things about that man.... Go for it. The w the erm way he said erm [Pc Bruce:] No [tut] no the obvious things. He said it, but I wanna know three obvious things about him. Three very obvious... and things you would forget about him straight away because it's so obvious. Think about it. [speaker001:] Erm er he talked really [Pc Bruce:] No. [speaker001:] nice. [Pc Bruce:] Yes he talked really nice, but the obvious things. If you was describing that man... you'd all get his clothes I bet, but I bet there's three things you would forget about him, straight away. Obvious things, because it's so obvious you're forgetting, think about it. [speaker001:] Medium built. [Pc Bruce:] Medium built... was he? [speaker001:] No he was skinny. [Pc Bruce:] Shh. Was he? [speaker001:] Mm yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Was he medium built or, what was you gonna say? [speaker001:] Skinny and tall. [Pc Bruce:] S s skinny and tall?... Who agrees with him?... Who agrees with him?... It's a obvious thing about him, he was... not being horrible, skinny and tall. You've said two things about him. What's the next obvious thing, very very obvious thing about him that we're forgetting? So obvious you're gonna, all gonna go [tut] oh yeah! [speaker001:] He was white. Oh I know. [Pc Bruce:] Good man. He's white.... He's a white... tall... skinny man.... Yeah? Was he short and fat like me?... He was tall and skinny.... Yeah? Now, describe that man... his clothes, describe his clothes.... [speaker001:] Black, I mean brown jacket. [Pc Bruce:] What, right then we're gonna see in a minute when we turn the video, see if you're right. [speaker001:] White trainers. [Pc Bruce:] White trainers, we'll see if you're right. What else? [speaker001:] The Lada car. [Pc Bruce:] A Lada car... a Lada car eh? We will have a look to see if you was watching or giggling with your mate next door. [speaker001:] Blue jeans. [Pc Bruce:] Blue jeans? We'll have a look, see if you're right in a minute. [speaker001:] They were blue cords. [Pc Bruce:] Blue cords? We'll have a look to see if you're right in a minute. [speaker001:] Dark glasses. [Pc Bruce:] Dark glasses, good girl, dark shiny, what they call reflection [speaker001:] Shades. [Pc Bruce:] glasses or mirror glasses. [speaker001:] Licence by number of car. [Pc Bruce:] Alright then, what was it? Shh Come on [speaker001:] M J B [Pc Bruce:] M J B... [speaker001:] three... six seven X. [Pc Bruce:] Who agrees with him?... Who disagrees with him?... Is he right? [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Have the courage of your convictions, is he right? [speaker001:] Yes. No. Yes. No [Pc Bruce:] Am I gonna put some doubt in your mind? Can I make you put doubt in your mind that he's wrong? [speaker001:] I knew there was an X [Pc Bruce:] [shouting] Hold on a second [] hold on. Are, is he wrong? [speaker001:] No. [Pc Bruce:] Is he wrong? [speaker001:] No Yes. [Pc Bruce:] Who says he's wrong?... You just said y [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] do you think you're wrong? [speaker001:] Yeah I've just figured it out. [Pc Bruce:] You've just figured it out? You're wrong are you? [speaker001:] Yeah it's meant to be four four numbers [Pc Bruce:] Wally! You're right! You got it right. [speaker001:] Thought there was meant to be four. [Pc Bruce:] No you said it... M J B three six seven X. Cos I put a doubt in your mind you changed your opinion. You was right. [speaker001:] But I thought er [Pc Bruce:] No thought about it, no thought about it, you was right. Cos I went... [mimicking] well is he right? Well is he wrong []? you changed your mind.... Alright then, what kind of car was it? Think about it, and it ain't a Lada. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] Think about it. [speaker001:] Blue Volkswagen. [Pc Bruce:] A blue Volkswagen, is he right? [speaker001:] Yeah. ... [Pc Bruce:] You're right. It was a blue Volkswagen. What kind of a Volkswagen? If you get this you go top of the class.... [speaker001:] Golf. [Pc Bruce:] Close. Close. [speaker001:] Golf. [Pc Bruce:] It was the one, it's a Golf with the boot on it and they're called Jettas. Okay, what have we forgot about the man? Have we got it all? Anyone think of anything else? Have we got it all? [speaker001:] His moustache. [Pc Bruce:] His moustache, yeah his moustache. What colour was his moustache? [speaker001:] Brown. [Pc Bruce:] Brown? What else... have we forgotten about the man? I think we've nigh on got it.... What colour was his erm [speaker001:] Hair, black. [Pc Bruce:] Was it black? [speaker001:] It was brown. [Pc Bruce:] Alright then, alright then here's one for you... [speaker001:] brown and gingery. [Pc Bruce:] when I don't wear Brylcreem, what's the colour of my hair? [speaker001:] Black. White [Pc Bruce:] Shh What's the colour of my hair when I don't wear Brylcreem? [speaker001:] White. Grey. [Pc Bruce:] Good man. It's grey. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] I've got Brylcreem on and it looks black. Would... did he have Brylcreem on? [speaker001:] No. I don't know. He could of done. [Pc Bruce:] I'm asking you, you sh you got loads to look at his hair. [speaker001:] Yeah. [Pc Bruce:] Did he? I'm just putting these things in your mind to put some doubt in your mind. [speaker001:] He looked young. [Pc Bruce:] I would say... yeah how old was he then? [speaker001:] Middle aged. [Pc Bruce:] Hands up, how old was he?... Think about it. [speaker001:] Ooh Thirty six. [Pc Bruce:] Thirty six [speaker001:] Late thirties. [Pc Bruce:] Did he look shh shh shh shh did he look older or younger than me? Hands up, be honest. [speaker001:] Older. Younger. Younger Younger [Pc Bruce:] I'm not here to be flattered I want to be the oldest. I would say he was [speaker001:] Older. Older. [Pc Bruce:] Older? [speaker001:] No. No. Younger. Younger. [Pc Bruce:] I'll ask someone who's gonna be honest, Vinnie, would he, was he older than me or younger? [speaker001:] Looked younger. [Pc Bruce:] I would say he was younger than me, I would agree with Vinnie.... He was younger than me.... You was trying to butter me up weren't you? [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [Pc Bruce:] He was younger than me. I would say he was early to mid thirties whereas I am mid thirties to late thirties. [speaker001:] Thirty two.... [Pc Bruce:] Oh... [speaker001:] My dad's thirty [Pc Bruce:] but if don't know, if you don't know... don't make it up. That's what I'm trying to say. You got it right and you stuck to your guns and cos I'm... put a little doubt in your mind you changed. If you don't know... don't guess, if you're certain, say it.... Yeah? That's what I'm saying, if, if, if,a a we hope you're never in the situation... but if you was describing that man, try and describe that man as honestly, honestly and as best as you can... don't say, if I say to you... oh did he have jeans on? Don't say oh yeah yeah he had jeans on. Try and remember it the best you can. You remembered the car, because I put doubt in your mind you changed it. No no I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Don't. If you, if that's how you remembered it... tell the policeman for the description. Think about it but don't guess. If I say to you what colour w was his hair and you go... I can't remember, sorry. Don't guess. Don't just say oh yeah he was blond, you could be guessing wrong. Say I'm sorry I can't remember. You see that's what I'm trying to do... because you're getting older now, you can remember all these things... you can remember all these things... What's the question there? [speaker001:] I just wondered how much longer [Pc Bruce:] Couple of minutes, couple of minutes we're just gonna show the end of the fi programme [speaker001:] Oh. He had shoes on. He had shoes on not trainers. [Pc Bruce:] He had shoes on? Well we'll see. [speaker001:] He had trainer shoes on. [Pc Bruce:] Shh shh shh shh shh... see who's right and who's wrong. [video playing]... If you don't know say white type of shoes or white something, he had white [speaker001:] Brown jacket. [Pc Bruce:] Brown jacket, yeah. [speaker001:] No that's mustard. It's mustard. [Pc Bruce:] Oh don't get technical. Brownish, that's good enough innit? He's a tall man isn't he? He's a lot taller than I am. Shh shh shh You're getting too... precise now, just remember... shiny glasses. [speaker001:] Black hair. [Pc Bruce:] Black hair.... If you don't know they were trainers or shoes say they were a white type [speaker001:] They look like grey. Black socks. [Pc Bruce:] M J B three six seven X, you were right and I convinced you you were wrong. [video playing]... Good words. You heard what Pippin said... play safe, that's all we're saying, play safe. But remember there are people out there who want to hurt you.... Yeah? You've had this video now and I've come to this school since you started this school, so you should know more about Stranger Danger... than other schools cos I keep coming every year and talking to you about it. And I think we must have had this video three times, you should be word perfect by now. Just remember there are people out there who will be cruel and unpleasant to you. They may appear nice but they're not and someone you don't know is a stranger.... Now after that, all have a nice holiday and play safe. Speak to you later and have a nice holiday if I don't see you. [speaker001:] Thank you. [Pc Bruce:] You're more than welcome and take care. Play safe, yeah? [speaker001:] and then I saw you on there. [Pc Bruce:] Did you? You was all having to be quiet weren't you? [speaker001:] I'm not sure because there was these two blokes What's that? and they were going... [Pc Bruce:] That man's recorded everything that was said in this room. [speaker001:] Excuse me er [LAUGHTER] It's alright it's anon anonymous.

[speaker001:] Right now listen folks. sh sh sh sh sh. Can I remind you please if you're answering a question can you please put your hand up so I can select. Some of you know Now way back a couple of weeks ago when we were doing the group seven the one that's spelt F C L B R I A T. Hands up who can remember what any of those stand for without looking on er [John:] You forgot the first rule put your hand up. Right fluorine is the actual element fluoride is the stuff that's in? [speaker001:] Toothpaste. [John:] Toothpaste very good. You never put your hand up. Right C L [speaker001:] Please sir is chloride [John:] Chloride is the is when it's joined up with something chlorine is the element. And what do we get chlorine in? [speaker001:] Swimming baths. [John:] Swimming baths to? [speaker001:] To take away all the nasty To kill the germs. [John:] Well it doesn't exactly kill them kill the it's got it's own smell which sort of tends to mask the smell but it's also basically to kill the germs. B R? [speaker001:] Bromine. [John:] Bromine very good. And I? [speaker001:] Iodine. [John:] Very good excellent. S so what I want you to show you this morning is how we can actually make the chlorine. So the people at the front yeah if if you come up a little bit closer....... Now sh sh sh sh.... Please... Now... I've got erm a bottle which is actually contains some chlorine here but it's not called chlorine liquid. I'll scratch this. Hydro [speaker001:] Chloric. Chloric. [John:] chloric acid and it also says... C O N C. Conc what is conc short for? It's short for a word yes. It starts with C O N C. Anybody? Conc is short for? [speaker001:] Nose [LAUGHTER] [John:] No conc er... it's the beginning part of a word. If you use the word conc you're just meaning your nose. [speaker001:] Conical. [John:] Ah now we're getting a bit more scientific. Conical if it was conical it would be C O N I conical. But it's conc. Now can you think of a wo c think of a word that describes the state of this liquid. And I'm going to hold the top while I show you. It's rather oily and it's quite a a dense liquid. [speaker001:] Is it dangerous? [John:] It is dangerous yes. I'm gonna get some goggles on in a minute.... What do you call liquid ah I'll give you a clue. What do you call a liquid that's very very strong? [speaker001:] Concentrated liquid. [John:] Thank you concentrated. Now I... Goggles on time folks. Now in this particular case I'm using a tap funnel... Tap funnel... just as it's... it's... Erm the concentrated acid you don't just sort of pour it in and run away and leave it to it. Let it in a little bit at a time.... Just slow... Slowly let the acid in. Then turn it off. Right now so the tap is to control the speed at which the acid goes in and if there is any gas that's in there it can't escape out of that pipe again it's got to go down the other pipe. So it's a safe it's a safety feature and it helps control the experiment. So we control the speed at which the acid goes in. And once it's in there it prevents the gas from escaping. Now at the moment the black chemical that's in there is not doing a great deal. The black powder's just sort of gone to a a sludgy paste. The powder's just gone it's dissolved a little bit but it's not really doing much on its own. So in order to speed it up a little bit we might need need to heat it up. Who said that? [speaker001:] Me. [John:] Well done. Now who's going to go next door to get the gas switched on? [speaker001:] What? [John:] Right... Listen again sh sh sh sh sh. [speaker001:] Done it. [John:] Sh Now... in order to help this black powder to split up the acid. We're going to have to heat it up a little bit. Now again I'm treating it carefully I'm not just sticking the bunsen underneath and blasting away at it. I've got the... Graham wanted to well unfortunately Graham this one's a bit dangerous so I'm having to do it so if anything goes wrong it's me that gets it and not you.... Well because I've got all the dirty chemicals... Sh.... Please.... Erm... How will we know... how will we know if there's any gas escaping? What. What's this paper? [speaker001:] P H paper. [John:] P H paper. So I'm going to moisten it.... Because of the gas that's drifting around in here... What? [speaker001:] The gas can you can you set fire to it? [John:] No it's not a flammable gas. But it is poisonous so if I start smelling it I'm going have to switch the cupboard on to suck the fumes away. Lorraine. Now this P H test I've only had it a few seconds and already look what it's done to the paper.... Where I've wet it what's it done to it? [speaker001:] Turned it yellow. [John:] It's turned it yellow and where it was dry it's now going what colour? [speaker001:] Red. [John:] Red. Red means it's [speaker001:] An acid. [John:] an acid. And because this takes what do you call something what do you call something that takes the colour away? [speaker001:] Bleach. [John:] those are old pieces of paper. Come on somebody what do you call a chemical... A what? Not a neutralizer.... Andrew? We call a chemical that takes that takes Now you'll see it. What colour's the gas? [speaker001:] Green. [John:] Right it's a green gas... and it's also what it does it to this paper turns it acid to start with and then takes the colour away it is a bleach. Bleach gas.... Now because it was frothing up I've turned the bunsen off... to control the reaction it's slowing down again now. And you can see the colour. What colour's bromine on that list? [speaker001:] Black. [John:] Black. What colour's iodine on that list? [speaker001:] Black. Blue. [John:] Not it's not blue. Purple And they're all poisonous... and they will bleach this the be this is probably the best bleacher. This is highest the highest up up the list that we can do. We can do reactions from F too dangerous.... Now sh sh sh sh sh... sh. Now this one I'm going to show you this one this time. Karina? [speaker001:] Mm? [John:] Why do we use the tap funnel again? Cos we've got a tap funnel. [speaker001:] so if there's any gas [John:] Yeah right it can't get out it has to go down the pipe. [speaker001:] Sir? [John:] Stop shuffling. Sh. Can anybody oh I bet you'll never guess this one. Why have I got a conical flask instead of a round flask? Here's the answer. The round flask is broken. Erm I've go some purple crystals believe it or not.... now this one's a bit more powerful this purple chemical.... Shouldn't need heating up. If I put this white... if I put the white paper behind the flask, can you see the gas that's in there? [speaker001:] Yes a yellowy gas. [John:] Yellowy gas right and [speaker001:] Sir? [John:] Yes? [speaker001:] Is that flammable? [John:] It's not flammable it's poisonous it's acid and it bleaches. It could yes in the in the First World War er they used... It would [speaker001:] But how long would it take? [John:] It depends how much you got into whether you had asthma or not. You might you might have after you've s had some of this. Now can I explain this part over here look at this. Sh sh. Er right I've got this contraption upside down leading into a a trough of water. Can anybody guess why? There's something else that this gas does in water. If you'd got enough gas it would make bubbles. But we've only got a small supply remember. It may do. What do what do things normally do in water. Sometimes they move yeah. Anything else if you just put some Right they sink or float. What else do they do after they've either sunk or floated? [speaker001:] Rust. [John:] They might rust yeah. Or... turn to a well what do you call it when they turn to a liquid. What's the word? They what? [speaker001:] They liquidize. Liquidize. [John:] They liquidize but you can liquidize things by heating them up that would liquidize them but in this particular case you just mix them with some water what's the process called? To turn it into It's called what? If you stir some sugar into water. [speaker001:] Dissolves. [John:] It dissolves okay. If this gas... if this gas dissolves too quickly it'll suck the water back up the tube and into this flask. It could be dangerous because if you're sucking water into acid you could have problems. So Lorraine I've got this upside down funnel and that prevents the water from being sucked up. How do I know I've got some chlorine in the water. Well look what's happening to these test papers.... They're not acid any longer what's happened to them? Mark what's happened to that that test the P H paper there? [speaker001:] It's all gone white. [John:] It's gone white what's the pr what's the pr what do we call it it's been? [speaker001:] Bleached. [John:] Bleached. So I've got some bleaching yeah smell you can smell that bleach. I've got some bleaching chemical. Wave it past your nose you don't sn Don't don't just I'll just wave it past your nose. You don't want to much cos remember it is er poisonous.... Anybody else want... no? You want a smell?... Right.... So... sh sh sh sh sh let's just sum up.... What was the liquid we started with?... What was the liquid we started with? [speaker001:] Erm oh that conc [John:] Concentrated hydrochloric acid. It's got chlorine in it. We used a black chemical to start with but in order to that to help that we needed some heat. And this one works on its own this purple chemical is more powerful and works on its own. Adam can you go and turn the gas off? Right now... I don't know Mr. 's trying to book some. [speaker001:] What? [John:] Erm science trips. [speaker001:] Where to? [John:] Somewhere in [speaker001:] The Science Museum in London? [John:] No no no erm somewhere in Yorkshire. [speaker001:] Somewhere where? [John:] Somewhere in Yorkshire. Er yes a gas gas gas fired power station. Right can you go back to your places. Right now [speaker001:] Sir have s have you seen Pride and Prejudice and the telly? [John:] Can you look after those folks. Well well did anything happen when I put the acid in? Did any any of you three see what anything that happened in the first one. so we had to put some a bit of heat in. Nothing happened acid on its own. Now we got. Let's... Right excuse me. too small. Erm... does anybody know what this M N O two business is? Have a look on your your periodic table and see if you can work out what M N O two. You should know what O O stands for. M N O two anybody? [speaker001:] Nitric oxide. [John:] Something oxide yeah. Part way there come on M N have a look on your page one of this module. Work look up what M N stands for.... Anybody worked it out come on M N O two. [speaker001:] Magnesium. [John:] Very close but not quite right. Not magnesium.... Have a look look very close it's not mag it's... No oh that's capital N this is a little N M N.... That's it right. M N [speaker001:] Oxidizes [John:] Go on read it what is it? [speaker001:] Magnesium. [John:] No have you looked closer. [speaker001:] Manganese. [John:] Manganese manganese oxide.... Please. There you go. [speaker001:] ... [John:] Manganese oxide erm the back row decided. Manganese oxide. Erm [speaker001:] Excuse me sir thanks sir. [John:] universal liquid. Or a piece of universal paper or. What does K M N O four stand for? What does K stand for anybody work that one out on your periodic table. K for anybody remember cos we've done this group.... What's this paper paper called? [speaker001:] P H. [John:] Yeah that's P H.... Yes it is. No not chrome.... Anybody... what's K? [speaker001:] Potassium. [John:] Well done. Yes I know because it's come from an old an old word an old.... Er K potassium yes. Erm then we've got a manganese K M N O four. It's got two metals. How which one's got most which one's got most oxygen in it the K M N O four or the or the M N O two? [speaker001:] M N O two. [John:] Why? [speaker001:] That's a guess. [John:] Well look at the numbers. M N O two K M N O four. [speaker001:] Oh I thought K M N O four. [John:] Yeah why? [speaker001:] Cos it's got number four. [John:] It's got four oxygen atoms and that's only got two oxygen atoms. Well done Michael. So K M N O four's got more oxygen.... Erm... what does this word property mean in number four? Property. Now you're gonna tell me a property is something that you can Yes something that's good about it very good. So what's what what are what's chlorine got that say no other gas has? It's a germ killer yeah anything else? [speaker001:] Er. [John:] How would know it if I brought a jar full into the room? [speaker001:] Smell it. [John:] Smell it. Right erm what else. How would we know a jar was full compared with an empty jar. Just to look at if the lid was on. [speaker001:] You can see it. [John:] Why? [speaker001:] You can smell it. [John:] No we've the lids on this time. [speaker001:] Sir it was oily and you can see it. [John:] No... that was some drops of acid that you could see We're trying to work out what the properties of this gas if you're not listening you won't be able to do number four. It's smelly it's yes it's poisonous yes that's a property good. Another one? Mm that's a use not a property.... What colour It's yellowy green yes How we doing folks?... Good. [speaker001:] Sir I've finished. [John:] Right goo you know that erm acid thing you were doing this one... be finishing that off. I dunno I can't remember. [speaker001:] You marked it. [John:] and have you done a key [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] Well a key should have a little bit at the bottom to say what what's it stands for. Oh you've done that red ones, yellow ones, where's your yellow ones Your key doesn't match your chart. You've put green ones and they're the metals. Your green ones are the alkali earth metals. You've got this all all wrong. Tell you what I'll get you another one.... How are we doing ladies okay? Number five oh Can anybody tell... er on number five why we got the upside down funnel. No. Now come on this is a check of who was listening Why have I why have we got that upside down funnel? Sh sh sh sh. Sh sh er no. What does the gas do to the water? Mark Mark Mark. It does... but it might also do the gas might do something else as well. [speaker001:] Turn the water green. [John:] How could it turn the water green what would it have to do in the water? [speaker001:] Bubble. [John:] Come on we're going back to this shove it in water business again. [speaker001:] Oh it dissolves. [John:] Dissolves stop it from sucking the liquid back again. dissolves to the stop the liquid from being sucked back into. The gas dissolves. the gas starts to come off when I just put the acid in. Yeah so you've got to heat it up. paper some P H erm Darren Darren sit down please. that funnel right now how did we control the speed at which the acid went in. With a tap. And then once all the acid was in if you left the tape open what would happen to the gas? It would just escape so we sh close the top and the gas has got to. [speaker001:] Down the tube and into [John:] Yeah down the other tube and into the what's the thingumajiggy?... What do you call it that tall cylinder thing? Thingumajiggy? You'll never guess it's for collecting gases so we call it a [speaker001:] Gas. [John:] Gas jar. [speaker001:] Not far off. [John:] Oh. Now come on. Speed it u yeah cos the black powder wasn't powerful enough. Can anybody tell me why the black powder's not powerful enough. Look at the shorthand for it M N O two it's not got so much? [speaker001:] Oxygen. [John:] Very good it's not got so much oxygen. So you've got to give it some heat to help the oxygen to work.... Now if anybody's finished and is wondering what to do check through and make sure everything is up to date. And then I've got some work here for those who thing everything's up to date.... So don't start this work until everything else is up to date. It's on the end of this. And if anybody's been away and has got or has got missing sheets I've got spare sheets down here. Question sheets... Don't forget your acid posters by the way.... Or you getting another one.... It's Right I would.... The only problem is I haven't got many colours. You'd you'd do better to use your own colours if you've got.... How are you doing okay Dean? Oh right well you need Oh not again. Right who can tell yes go on Michael. [speaker001:] To let the acid in. [John:] To let not out to let what in slowly. The acid in slowly right. It lets the acid in slowly and once the acids in what does it stop next? [speaker001:] Carbon dioxide [John:] So whatever's in there can't get out up there it's got to go through another pipe it's got to go through the other pipe. Two two reasons. To stop the... gas from escaping and to let the acid in bit by bit. [speaker001:] Sir? [John:] Yeah. Er you could put P H or universal or any antacid indicator. [speaker001:] Sir [John:] Properties... who can tell me a property of this gas. Look at it in through the in the fume cupboard I can see one from here. [speaker001:] Green. [John:] It's green right good.... It it's a bit misty alright fair enough that's a property. Anything else? If it can fall down out of that pipe into the jar it must be? Very good be heavy. If it erm sucks the water up if you're not careful it must. How can it suck the water up by? It hasn't actually done cos I put that funnel on the end to stop it from doing it. Yeah it would cause a vacuum as it dissolves. So it dissolves obviously. Have you got the smell one have you put the smell smell one down. Smells of? Swimming baths or bleach or... You can put some universal indicator or erm P H paper or To stop it from sucking because it dissolves too well It's like you in there drinking drinking er coke out of a straw if you you suck enough... It'll all end up in your mouth. If you just put a pipe straight in the end of the liquid it would suck the liquid up. Right Darren if you've finished the qu To s stop from sucking up Now who's finished?... Number three you could on the filter paper I've out some of those P H test papers. You could put universal, P H, litmus anything. Oh yeah probably we don't stop just cos you're not. Are there any I've got the index out here if you want one. [speaker001:] I'll thank 'em all very much then. [John:] Oh fine you want to thank them now. [speaker001:] Can I thank you all very much for being cooperative. [tape ends]

[speaker001:] each [John:] If I can find it. Pages... forty six and forty seven please. And you'll er you'll need a piece of paper. Pages forty six and forty seven and you'll need a piece of paper to do the work on. [speaker001:] Sir someone's got my book so I'm having this one if it's alright. [John:] Good. Would you please bring your chairs and that table over here so that we're all together round this table thank you. It might be an idea actually if we moved out just a little bit Tracey. [speaker001:] What? [John:] Let everybody else in. Right your title should be Syrinx by Debussy. Copy it from the top of page forty six and we are then ready to proceed. You will also need to manage to perform this er task accurately a piece of manuscript paper. So while you're finishing heading your bits and pieces up would you like to pass some of them round. And I will find a little more from devious places for you. This' ll do there. Right. Another four here.... How many people still need manuscript paper? The intelligent amongst us have already been looking at the questions on page forty seven and realizing that despite the weirdness of the sound of this music there are some quite direct things that can be asked. There's a s a definite explanation of terms that you see in the music written at the top of page forty seven would you look at them please. Because Debussy being French the instructions here aren't written in the usual language which you come across which is Italian. Yes? [speaker001:] Sir may I take a keyboard [John:] Provided it is returned at the end yes please. Or even in German which is the second language of music we're looking at instructions in French. So tres modere is and as the explanation gives you at a very moderate speed. That means quite a slow speed in practice. Where you look please at the word retinue which is figure two it means ritardando a bit slower. Number three un peu movemente mais tres peu means a little faster but very little. So it only moves a bit faster there. Ceder that's in bar fifteen number four means slower. Rubato means not in strict time. That's a standard Italian word and it's been mixed in amongst all the French rubato. You've got au movement tres modere which means in French at the original speed very moderate again of course okay? En retenant jusque a la pas number seven there getting slower right up to the end very obviously. You've got marc underneath which means marcato give a little push at the beginning of the note if you have to. Don't forget this is a wind player playing a flautist. So if you're marking the sound you've got to give a little more air to it more wind. Tres retinue near the end there getting much slower. Okay as opposed to just the retinue [] which means a little slower. And finally peu de doci which is not French but is again Italian peu de doci means dying away. Peu de doci means quite literally getting lost. So if you want to get rid of somebody you can go and tell them to peu de doci which means getting lost. Okay I know we moved on to the next piece last week we will start again on that tomorrow. I want to complete our previous work first. So there are twelve questions here. You are going to hear the music several times. Look with me now at the twelve questions. Some of these you can answer directly because we've already the music. For instance for question one you could all answer it now. The answer would be? [speaker001:] I can't Flute. [John:] Flute thank you Darren. Look carefully at the music of the first two bars then write the music of bar three. Ah that means you've got to listen carefully to what happens. Do please remember that echoes are used repeats of things are used. It may be that some of it is a repeat. It asks you to [reading] draw five empty bars to represent the music for bars four to eight. Do not copy the notes but underneath the stave write marks to show where the music gets louder [] crescendo marks [reading] and softer [] diminuendo marks. Now you can do this if you wish of course on ordinary plain paper because all you need to do to create your five empty bars I would suggest is we'll assume that's your thing there. One two three four five. Okay and if say it crescendoed in bar two you would go like that Say it diminuendoed in bar four you would do that. [speaker001:] Oh yeah. [John:] So you don't even need to use music paper for this. You can just draw your bars. Question four is a very simple one [reading] what actually happens to the music at bar nine []. Question five asks you to fill in [reading] the rhythm of the music in bar ten []. Look at bar ten it's at the end of that statement un peu movemente mais tres peu You'll see you've got the note heads given. You have to fill in the rhythm. You will need to copy those note heads onto manuscript paper and put em in.... You don't have to complete bar nine even though bar nine is empty because that's the subject of question four what happens there. So you have to describe that in words. You have to listen carefully Oh sorry yes fill in the rhythm adding the phrase and dynamic parts for bar five for question five. Question six asks you to [reading] listen carefully to the music of bars fourteen to nineteen []. I will find those and play them several times. [reading] Where in the music does the player take a breath? [] Now then how are you gonna say where in the music the player takes a breath? [speaker001:] Where there's like a little comma. [John:] Well that could be the answer. You are gonna have to say though. You're gonna have to complete the music for bar fifteen. You can see there's a gap there under the word ceder. So I suggest you actually copy the first three notes of bar fifteen and then put the rest in correctly. In bar sixteen you have to name the intervals. Have we talked about naming intervals before? [speaker001:] No. [John:] In that case we will attempt to do this now and we'll talk about interval naming afterwards those of you who can please attempt it there will be questions here that some of us can't. Question nine is a listen. [reading] Listen to the music in the bars twenty three and twenty four. What do you thing the word trilla [] trill in English means. Okay [reading] describe briefly how the music ends. Which of these words do not describe the character of the music? [] And there they are vigorous, mysterious, majestic, haunting and. We will now be listening to the music would you please write what you need to would you complete as many of the questions as you can. If like one or two of us who are thinking about it you've already been thinking about it you've got two or three of these complete already. Here is the music for the first time today. [music 176] Okay. So we can all answer question one Leon? [speaker003:] Yeah flute. [John:] The answer to question one please. [speaker003:] Flute. [John:] Flute thank you Oh dear oh dear. [speaker001:] I put a pipe. I put pipe. [John:] You put what? [speaker001:] Pipe. [John:] A pipe. Well I suppose it is basically but no flute that's what we were looking for. Erm you were asked to look carefully at the music of the first two bars then write the music of bar three. Who has done this so far? Well let's think about it once more I know you've done the correct thing cos I've just looked. Okay. [speaker001:] Mm. Mm thanks. [John:] Thank you. Listen please to the first four bars of this music. Four or five bars and tell me what you notice about bar three. Follow bars one and two particularly carefully. [music 20] What did you notice about bar three by comparison with bar one. It's it is it is the same. [speaker001:] Is it? [John:] So what you should have copied down is bar one again. Okay? If you haven't done that yet do it now because the practice of writing it of actually copying it down is important. [speaker001:] Why though? [John:] Because the more you actually write the music notes Carl the better you will be able to do it when you eventually come to have to write them in exam. Practice is what it's all about. So at this juncture you should be making a copy of bar one and calling it bar three. What have we done with Mark today? [speaker001:] We've killed him. [John:] He's not in school. Who else have we got missing? Paul Sounds utterly brilliant thank you very much for that news Darren. Were you there? [speaker001:] He was laying on the ground for about half an hour. [John:] Well I expect he was hurt poor lad. When you've completed copying this which you should be now I think. [speaker001:] No I don't think so. [John:] Please don't take all day over it it's important that you don't. [speaker001:] I'm never writing it again. [John:] Mm? Why not? Ah I think you've got a bit of a mental block against it myself. [speaker001:] I do. I don't care I hate it. I hate writing music [John:] Right how did you do? You've got to put the clef at the beginning of it you really ought to. Okay and er... you know you you weren't you weren't actually high enough up there were you. I mean think about it. Yeah. that bit that was the bar. okay you got that bit right you certainly needed the accidentals you certainly needed those two. Okay it's very important that the whole things done accurately. Those two aren't high enough see that really need to be up there doesn't it. and you need more so really you needed to have done it on this line. So that you could do it like that. Okay. the accent over the top and all the rest of it. Yeah let's have a look over your shoulder. Oh beautiful. You've done what's wr what's wrong with it? You've done an accurate copy haven't except for this.... And you'd actually spotted it already which I thought was brilliant except we do need to have the [speaker001:] I've got two I've got one it's [John:] Yes you've got two but there are three. [speaker001:] Oh okay then yeah. [John:] As there are three there. [speaker001:] I've got three there I've got one two three [John:] Oh I see well you've got 'em you've that's why you put em diagonal you see so that they really do show up against the Oh yes yes everything's got to be there all the phrase marks the accidentals have got to be it. You know these things. [speaker001:] Is this right sir? [John:] Oh totally accurate well done I'm talking to [speaker001:] Sir the end of your pencil's gone blunt. Pen I mean. [John:] Thank you where? It's vitally important that when you're doing it I'll do it up here that you have the dots, you have the spacing, you have the correct number of lines underneath, you have the accidentals, you have the accents, you have the phrase mark and so on. Oh we're getting the piece actually whistled here well done. And so on yeah. Now compare that with what you've written underneath. Well it doesn't actually sort of bear witness does it. It's coming but you still need to have the accent over the top, you need to have the dot there, you need to have the two accidentals there, that's yes that's got what it needs dot there, the accent there, you need to have the two accidentals there don't you. Yeah and you need to have the flat in front of this one. Yeah? Right ladies and gentlemen.... It's important that if you are going to copy accurately... you do copy accurately. Question three asked you to draw five empty bars to represent the music of bars four to eight. There are five bars between four and eight think about it. Will you please on your piece of paper your blank piece of ordinary paper s s create those five bars now and would you please put in the appropriate signs either crescendo or diminuendo. Well we can't hear it at the moment I'm just about to run it again for you. [speaker001:] I'm sorry you've lost me there. [John:] Okay. Here comes the music what you've gotta decide from between bar four to bar eight. [speaker001:] Twenty minutes. What? Is that how long it takes? [John:] What's twenty minutes got to do with bar four and bar eight Carl? Or are you hungry already? I see. [speaker001:] Aren't we all. Too many lessons in the morning I'm sorry. [John:] If the music gets louder you put the crescendo mark in. [speaker001:] What that mean? [John:] If the music gets quieter you put the diminuendo mark in. Okay here's the piece. This is part one. [music in background 38] This is bar two of course. Here is bar three. Now here's bar four at which point we start putting crescendos in if we need to. And that was the end of bar eight. Would you like to hear that little bit again see if you can recall it. [speaker001:] [music in background 38] [John:] Here's bar three. There's bar four. Right can I have suggestions them? Anybody got anything in bar four? [speaker001:] Yeah. One no I've got it in five whoops. Bar four and bar five. [John:] Bar four and bar five what should happen? Crescendo? [speaker001:] It goes crescendo the like that it goes. [John:] Diminuendo. [speaker001:] That's it. [John:] Bars four and five I'm going to cheat and look this up in the instructions. [speaker001:] ah. [John:] Would you oh I see. Right ten nine eight here we are. [speaker001:] Here we are yes. [John:] It says and this is the books official ones. There is a crescendo at the end of bar and another during bar seven and a diminuendo in bar eight. Nothing in bar four. Crescendo in bar five, a crescendo in bar seven, and another one a diminuendo in bar eight. [speaker001:] ... [John:] Although I personally find that a very difficult thing to hear. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] What happens to the music what sorry what happens in the music at bar nine. Okay? All brains in gear we're listening from the beginning. And we're listening from the beginning. Yes what happens in the [talking over music] music at bar nine. This is bar one. There's that crescendo they talked about. Here's the diminuendo. That's bar eight. Now what happens in this bar bar nine? [music 40] What goes lower? [speaker001:] The noise. [John:] You're right Craig it goes lower. The tune goes lower which tune? The first tune from the beginning bar one is repeated how much lower? Can anybody tell me? [speaker001:] About an octave. [John:] It's exactly an octave. [speaker001:] Oh thank you. [John:] Bar nine is bar one an octave lower. [speaker001:] [music 24] [John:] [talking over music] Here's the bit that's important this is bar nine an octave lower. [music ends] Okay now then will you please copy precisely what is there at bar ten. The music you need one bar of music line with those blobs which are the note heads in exactly the right places. Just copy what's in the book. [speaker001:] Copy what? Bar ten. [John:] Bar ten. Copy what's in the book at bar ten. Then all you've got to do is add the rhythm. Carl you haven't even started yet. [speaker001:] What we doing? [John:] Exactly. [speaker001:] Gotta copy out bar ten. [John:] Copy bar ten precisely as it's given in the book. [speaker001:] Where's bar ten? Where's bar ten? [John:] After bar nine and before bar eleven. If in doubt count from the beginning. [speaker001:] One two three four five six seven Five six seven eight nine ten. eight nine [John:] No you're counting lines Carl. [speaker001:] I know I was. [John:] You weren't counting bars. You'll find there are bar numbers given at the beginning of each line. Bar four starts the second line, bar eight starts the third line. So it out to be easy enough to work out where ten is since bar eleven starts the... fourth line. When you have copied precisely bar ten would you please now finish bar ten by putting the tails in the right places. [speaker001:] The what? [John:] The tails of the notes. That means the rhythm of the notes you may need to put dots in. You may need to... You may need to put dots in you may need to put semiquavers or even demisemiquavers in. [speaker001:] [music 24] [John:] [talking over music] This is bar nine followed by bar ten. Write in the rhythm pattern. [music ends] Liam I'm sure that was of no help whatsoever to your ability to write this down. It's becoming rather obvious that our concentration span is virtually finished. Now will you settle down please. Would you like to hear bars nine and ten again? There's got to be a reason why I'm playing you bar nine as well as bar ten. May I suggest you think about that. [speaker001:] [music 16] [John:] [talking over music] Here's bar nine. Here's bar ten. [music ends] Why was the why what was going on? Between bar nine and bar ten. It was the same rhythm pattern thank you very much. So which rhythm pattern are you going to put on those notes in bar ten? Same as bar nine which is blank but it's the same as bar one. But that's the point. And here you've had another example of the way normally these questions work. Carl? I'm not surprised you never know. [speaker001:] Sorry. [John:] Thank you. If there is to be a fairly detailed piece of note writing it very often is a fairly near or an exact copy of something that's already gone before. Of course you can't put the tails hanging down on bar ten can you. You have to put them up because the notes are on or below the middle line. Think think think. So you'll have to reverse the tails. Other than that Now we go on Oh we're still writing are we? Thought it had gone quiet for a s... Have you put your tails on there yet? They're the same tails as this lot except they're up the other way. Right? Well music is above the middle line the tails hang down. When music is below the middle line the tails stick up. That'll do well done Craig. Question six asked you to listen carefully to the music of bars fourteen to nineteen and say where the player takes a breath. Here we start at bar eleven. I'll tell you when we start on bar fourteen. You can think very hard where the player takes a breath. [talking over music] Twelve thirteen. Here's where you now have to start thinking. [music 30] So where did the player take a breath? [speaker001:] All of them. [John:] Was it at the end of every bar? Was it at the end of every two? It did in bar fourteen the player took a breath after the crotchet. It the player then took a breath at the end of bar fifteen just before you start the ceder bit. The player then took a breath where the comma is at the end of the line. That is a breath mark. Then took a breath at the end of bar eighteen. Listen to it again make sure you get it. Here it is. [music 30] [talking over music] This is bar fourteen breath after the crotchet. Breath on the bar line. Breath there. Here's the comma. [music ends] Now you were asked to complete the music of bar fifteen. What do you think you would have written? Look at bar fourteen and fifteen. Here they are again. [music 8] I'll run them again for you. [music 10] Right I'm just about to start bar fourteen. [speaker001:] Sh. [John:] Follow fourteen then think about fifteen and then see what you think you'd have written. Here it is fourteen. [music 8] That's the end of fifteen. Well thank you for that Darren nice of you to comment on it. Mm? What would you have written? [speaker001:] The same as what's in bar fourteen. [John:] The same as what's in bar fourteen. Who agrees with that? It is wrong but it's close. The middle No no there isn't a crotchet you see. Your first your first little group in bar fifteen which is the same as the first little group in bar fourteen, you would repeat. And then you've got to introduce a new little group which is halfway between that and what starts bar sixteen. It's in fact the most difficult question of the group. A very difficult question yeah. There are several other questions I'd like to think about. The word trill what do you think it meant? [speaker001:] Well it's like erm an it's like it make it fancy and it goes [John:] You do a wobble yes it the correct thing is a rapid alternation between the written note and the note above or between the two written notes. So trill is a rapid alternation between the two notes given okay. You were confusing it I think with shrill which is the word meaning high. Okay? Question ten is a very... involved question that I think we won't look at now. The music of course at the end just dies away to nothing. Which of these words do not describe the character of the music. Would you please say yes or no depending on whether you think it describes the character or not. First word vigorous. [speaker001:] No. Yes. No. [LAUGHTER] [John:] I do think you've made a mistake Carl. [speaker001:] Ah you're good at this aren't you Carl. No. [John:] Thank you. Second word mysterious. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Yes. Third word majestic. [speaker001:] No. [John:] Fourth word haunting. [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] Yeah. Fifth word angry. [speaker001:] No. [John:] Let's listen to the complete piece once more. At which point you can complete any other bits of the work that you feel you need to. [speaker001:] ... [John:] Yes I was very appreciative of that thank you. Miss said somebody did that for me who didn't want to do their ordinary work. [speaker001:] [music 162] [John:] While you're listening you could quietly and I mean quietly put your things away. Should you not wish to keep any of the papers that you've got there you can put them very carefully in the box. That box I don't know whether I'm allowed to say now thank heavens for that. [recording ends]

[speaker001:] Well now erm what it says here is that you want to sort of talk about possible options for a year out and then relevance of archaeology to career in surveying or land management. That's [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] basically what you want to talk about is it. Okay well what about this year out then. What what do you know sort of what you want to do at all or [Ian:] Not not not a great deal I mean I'd like possibly to try and stay in erm the field of archaeology to some [Martin:] Mhm. [Ian:] extent erm but obviously I also want to earn some money. [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] Cos erm [LAUGHTER] I w I'd like to erm do some sort of further qualification after first degree so erm and now whether that is going on to do [Martin:] Ah. [Ian:] something with erm surveying or whatever erm through one of these courses which gives you exemption from their sort of passing their exams or whatever, or [Martin:] Yes I see. [Ian:] whether it's to do archaeology heritage graduate which I'm also interested [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] in. that [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] means I've got earn three and a half thousand pounds f five thousand pounds erm at some point to pay [Martin:] Er [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] for that and living expenses. [Martin:] And you hope to do this in one year out do you? You hope to get somewhere towards there anyway. [Ian:] So well I don't hope to get somewhere anyway yes. [Martin:] Yes I see erm er well I suppose the question is erm [LAUGHTER] well I mean if the aim is to earn money basically in this year out then d do you have any skills which are in high [LAUGHTER] demand and people will pay for? [] [Ian:] Well I'm I'm really not sure I mean erm [Martin:] Erm er or even [LAUGHTER] any skills which would make you employable at all [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] is is another you know erm [Ian:] It's erm I've got I mean I've got a job for the first six weeks already set up with [Martin:] Have you yeah. [Ian:] the department but working as a supervisor [Martin:] Yeah yeah. [Ian:] on one of their sites. [Martin:] Oh great. [Ian:] So you know that's about [Martin:] That's okay. [Ian:] seven hundred pounds straight off that I've got. [Martin:] Right yeah. [Ian:] So erm I've got a bit of time also in which to apply for a few things and go and see a few people erm [Martin:] Yes yes. [Ian:] so [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] the other option of course is not to do that and to try and gain some experience erm m maybe voluntary for some of the time so that maybe I can then spend you know in another years time get a job which is a bit more relevant and I'll be able to earn some money. [Martin:] I see yes to transfer so the other aim would be to try and get some skills which er would improve your chances of doing whatever [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] it was you wanted to do in [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] in the end yes. Erm well if if we I mean you're you're probably fairly clear about the archaeology area [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and you probably know more about that than I do so I won't you know [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] there are other people who could [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] tell you more about that. So erm may maybe we should look at the surveying, land management bit [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] which I must admit I'm not an expert on. But erm my understanding of erm gaining a surveying qualification [Ian:] Mhm. [Martin:] is that basically erm you you go and work as a dogsbody and erm graduates are allowed to take the exams within two years and and you'd probably have to go on night school thing or something to get it you know. But basically there aren't any real really or there are very few decent schemes where they actually take graduates [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] with a view to training them properly. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] And more or less you just earn your bread and butter er doing things I mean it might be in the office [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] doing clerical work or it might be using erm surveying instruments now [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] I mean are you [Ian:] Yes yes [Martin:] can you do all that? [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] I mean that's that's one of the things I want ed to talk about was the relevance of archaeology to that sort of work I mean certainly I've done surveying you know [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] fairly elementary surveying but more or less I know how to use [Martin:] Well [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] a level and er [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] a theodolite and that sort [Martin:] Right yeah. [Ian:] of thing so I would have thought that it's the sort they're looking for. [Martin:] Yes well I'm sure there are that you know there there might be some scope for doing that [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] erm er it might be sort of rather like archaeology you know er [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] when they've got to do the road or something they want somebody to do it for the three weeks or [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] three days or whatever it takes [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] to do it and then they don't really want them any more. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] So but but on the other hand if you've got somebody I suppose a firm that was doing that sort of work and they [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] knew you could do it I I'm just not erm at all sure of er how that actually works. I mean erm presumably I mean obviously the local authority has its own people [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] who do that. [Ian:] Well a a as far as I'm aware anyway from all from reading [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] the information there appears that there should be private companies I actually haven't looked in the Yellow Pages yet actually I should do that and you know and yeah [Martin:] No no who do it who do that sort of work yeah. [Ian:] you know maybe I am the sort of person they're looking for who's already done a little bit of surveying erm to to join as a dogsbody and then over the two years or four years however long it does take erm you know slowly presumably you just get given more responsibilities. [Martin:] The the [Ian:] Erm [Martin:] the best training for surveying now interestingly we recently had a a thing about this from gosh. I can't remember where it was now but it it was certainly you know probably one of the er new er very new universities you know the ex-polys [Ian:] Yes yeah. [Martin:] and they were running a surveying course in conjunction with the er Inland Revenue which now [Ian:] Yeah yeah. Yes I [Martin:] Oh have you? Well that's [Ian:] Nearly. [Martin:] er nearly well that's the best thing I've seen for getting sort of properly qualified erm [Ian:] Yeah there there are a number of courses which you do [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] Erm... most of which are only a year which [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] give you exemption from [Martin:] Partial do they? [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] Some some of them actually give you exemption from all of them although I think they're [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] maybe no only they're more than a year. [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] Erm I have heard that there's a particularly there's a good correspondence course with Reading University. [Martin:] Well Reading does the degrees in estate management [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] so I mean they'd [Ian:] Yeah so [Martin:] know what they were about if [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] they were running a correspondence [Ian:] Erm yeah [Martin:] course. [Ian:] The think is I have to earn money to do those beforehand. You know [Martin:] Yes well I suppose it's a question of how much a correspondence course actually costs. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] And it should be relatively cheap. Because I [Ian:] Well that's what I thought [Martin:] mean you know they don't [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] er I mean it depends I suppose the extent to which there's any tutorial element but I mean erm whether they have you there for a week or something and teach you some of the practical [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] stuff. But but it's obviously very minimal compared [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] with with what you get [Ian:] Yes I mean I'm wondering if perhaps [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] I mean I may be able to get some money from my parents a little bit [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] erm and with this money that I'm going to earn in the first six weeks and then possibly erm getting a job while I'm doing the correspondence course erm you know even if it's just bar work and especially [Martin:] Yeah yeah. [Ian:] if I'm living at home which [Martin:] It would be cheap yeah yeah. [Ian:] erm then maybe I would be able to do to [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] do the correspondence course. [Martin:] I think the thing about correspondence courses is that erm y you have to be very good at disciplining yourself [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know because there's no sort of backup really I mean alright [Ian:] No. [Martin:] you've got your assignment and it has to be done by the end of the week or the end of the fortnight or [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] whatever it is and you've really got to get it off and then presumably it's marked and [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] maybe there are some things you haven't covered or [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] whatever and maybe if it's a good correspondence course they may refer you to the actual you know things you should have er read and so on [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] erm and then you've got to do that [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and get on with the next one [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and and it's really almost all up to you. [Ian:] I think erm... I I think I could do that. [Martin:] Right yeah yeah. [Ian:] I think if especially if I wasn't if it was one of if it was my main [Martin:] Yeah so I mean if you were doing bar work but really that wasn't the main job yes yeah yeah yeah. [Ian:] erm yeah if that was the case then I would be able to do that. [Martin:] Well well the thing about it I suppose is that erm er then you've got to take the exam haven't you? [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm but I think I think certainly I would have thought a place like Reading probably half their people set the exams anyway so [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know they it should be pretty well [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] spot on for [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] what you what you actually [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] want you know the the key thing is to discover what how much work a week you know how many hours a week they think it's going to take now that's [Ian:] Yeah [Martin:] actually extremely difficult to estimate really [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] because I mean you know some people are pretty quick [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] and some people are actually rather slow. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] And erm but I mean I remember when I I was doing er work with the Open University now I was a sort of er tutor with them or counsellor with them and I think we used to say ten to fifteen hours work a week [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] erm for one of their subjects you know one of their main [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] er full courses and I think too people tend to say about that level for something like the accountancy [Ian:] Right. [Martin:] erm qualification. So that's probably what you're looking at. [Ian:] Yeah that's [Martin:] Erm [Ian:] that's actually not really. [Martin:] It isn't that much is it really not if you're doing bar well well [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] it can work quite well with bar work cos bar work's a real pain cos it [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] splits the day up in such [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] an awkward way doesn't it. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] But if you get in a couple of hours [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and you work really hard at it and then you go back and do your [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know it's [Ian:] I mean fifteen hours in in a week is not much at all when you consider how much you're expected to do for a degree [Martin:] Right well it may be of course you see on the other hand the accountancy takes three years. Now er it it could be it yes but I think you need to check that to to see [Ian:] Ah yes it could be that you're expected to do thirty hours a week. yeah yes right yeah [Martin:] what they and they if it's a good course they should actually have some sort of estimate of this [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know. Erm and I mean you've obviously got to judge a bit your own capacity [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] to say well if it's a lot of it's erm maybe there's quite a lot of figure work or something [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] then if you're not actually frightfully hot at that [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Yes. [Martin:] then maybe that's going to take you a bit longer. So [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know you maybe err on the safe side a bit but as you say even if it's erm well thirty hours would be getting [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] er quite probably doable but [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you don't want much more than that do you? [Ian:] Don't want much more than that no. [Martin:] Oh as you you know. Anyway I think that's worth checking. [Ian:] I think the er the course actually leads to [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] complete exemption from the the exams. [Martin:] Does it yes all the exams. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Then you've got to get the experience [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] presumably to qualify. [Ian:] Yeah I think I think once you've [Martin:] Erm yeah. [Ian:] done that you're then you then are in a position to join a firm [Martin:] Mhm mhm. [Ian:] properly still probably as a bit of a dogsbody and then you have a sort of [Martin:] Mhm. [Ian:] probationary period where [Martin:] Erm I mean it depends what you're looking for I mean there were firms like you know [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] this huge firm in London erm who used to take graduate trainees on [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] but they were much more interested in people of course with degrees but they did take people who hadn't. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Now if you'd passed the exams [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] They'd er you might it might be worth writing around to see what the or or even ask the people who are running the correspondence course you know what [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] the chances are or or whether the pattern is that you get a dogsbody job in an ordinary firm of estate agents you know and you're [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] doing that and that's working your time out so that [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] then you know I'm not sure either whether of course I mean one would hope that erm the institute would have certain requirements about the erm practical period that you [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] actually had to have experience of [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] X Y and Z you know. [Ian:] I think there's very strict erm you know [Martin:] Erm yeah so so so you might be able to find out from the institute [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] who was offering this. [Ian:] Yes yes. [Martin:] Erm and the approach them and try and find out [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] what the chances were. Cos I I think you probably need to check it out a bit [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] before embarking on you know that. I mean I mean obviously the it may be that erm there's very little these days I'm afraid which is an absolutely copper bottomed guarantee you know but if if if they were able to say well you know yes we do take people who've got the exams you know we took somebody last year or whatever. [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] And and you could get a feel for the fact that they did do it. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm then you know that would be something whereas if they say well the recession's so bad we haven't taken anybody for the last five years and your researches can't unearth anybody who seems to be prepared to er give you even half a chance then I mean [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] it's obviously not [Ian:] Yeah [Martin:] probably a very good idea. Yeah. [Ian:] I mean I think [Martin:] Erm. [Ian:] Reading and Sheffield and whoever are doing the course [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] they should have things about who they've placed where? [Martin:] Well they should [Ian:] Erm. [Martin:] the thing is you have to be slightly careful about those because [Ian:] Right. [Martin:] erm it may depend on what experience the people had before they did the course. [Ian:] Yeah and you can't tell [Martin:] And and if if if you know they had none at all [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] and th you know they came from an arts background fine you know [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] then they really like you. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm but you know if if they've got a couple of years in er something and [Ian:] Yeah I mean it is the Sheffield one [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] it says in the brochure that they're looking [Martin:] Ah. [Ian:] for people who are er who have already maybe ex a bit of experience. So they've [Martin:] Ah yeah yeah. [Ian:] actually said that so yes [Martin:] Yeah so so you've got to be slightly careful but I mean if you already can use theodolites and things then in a sense I mean what do they mean by experience? [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm and er so you know but you've just got to be slightly careful I think of the figures and erm... i if if you know it's much better if you can talk to the the [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] admissions tutor or whatever or [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] or concoct a letter which asks some very direct questions [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know erm er which cover the business of previous experience and or somebody how many people do they have with your particular background of a little [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] er actual practical surveying experience in the context of archaeological digs er and so on you know and can they say what those people have gone on to [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm [Ian:] I mean what what ideally I'd like to do is to go is to get those qualifications and then move into back into the field of of archaeology working with [Martin:] Oh I see. [Ian:] someone like English Heritage, Nation Trust people like that who are lo who are you know who work with erm [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] valuers and er you know surveyors that and you know. [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] you know working out the potential of their land and how they can erm use their land and their properties to the best [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] effect so erm whether that means actually working directly for them or working for a company who specializes in erm... the management of historic erm buildings or environments or areas. [Martin:] Yes I th I think you've [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] yes it's tricky isn't it I'm afraid we don't know who these companies are. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Now that's what you really need to find out isn't it [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and then to find out what sort of people they've got working for them and what qualifications. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] I mean architects use these sort of people don't they [Ian:] Yes yes yes. [Martin:] because I remember erm talking to to to one and there are a number in York who [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] do this sort of work. [Ian:] Well I would imagine so and I th I think if I talk to Jane [Martin:] Yes she might have some ideas. [Ian:] she would be the person who would know about [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] it or Martin maybe. Erm you know [Martin:] Mm. Yes yes. [Ian:] and possibly even go down to the trust and talk to them. [Martin:] Oh that's a good idea cos I gather the department and the trust don't quite [Ian:] No. [Martin:] So they might know some different people. [Ian:] Be better for doing yes exactly. [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] [LAUGHTER] yes Yeah yeah mm yeah yeah. [Ian:] I think perhaps there are a few more places where I can get some information but [Martin:] I think the architects cos I was I was engaged in trying to find a sort of temporary work for er somebody in archaeology and and erm I remember I got to s to an architect and and he did quite a lot of that sort of work you know and they [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] would know who do which architects do that sort of work. And I think he was keen on whether the person could do erm sort of surveying of a of a building and actually you know do the drawings [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] for it. So that [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] I mean if you could do that [Ian:] Yeah well certainly the you [Martin:] then [Ian:] know that we've that's part of our training. [Martin:] Well they they're very interested in that because [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know they will have to do that sort of thing as part of a a job and they don't really want to spend time doing it. Erm well it's cheaper if they can employ [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] somebody [Ian:] Yeah. I mean I know also one architects firm in Gloucester where I live. [Martin:] Oh yes. [Ian:] So that deals with that because when I was originally going to do my er dissertation I was going to look [Martin:] Oh yes. [Ian:] at farm buildings and Jane said get in touch with [Martin:] Oh I see. [Ian:] this this arch this this architect because this bloke is particularly interested in it and he deals with historic buildings and things like that. So erm [Martin:] Mhm. [Ian:] you know I can always go back there as well. [Martin:] Well maybe you could have a go back there too. [Ian:] Yes I mean it's obviously better to work in both places [Martin:] Mm. Yes cos you need all the contacts you can [Ian:] exactly yes. [Martin:] Yeah mm mm yes. [Ian:] So I think maybe sort of first priority is find out a bit more information then about erm who employs these sorts people. [Martin:] I think that's right I'm sure the architects do those and and there are sort of architects' practices who are particularly interested in [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] doing sort of historic buildings and so on. Erm and and that of course is the sort of area that you want to get into really isn't it. [Ian:] Exactly yes yeah. [Martin:] Erm so they that might be quite a good area. [Ian:] Yeah I hadn't actually thought of architects so that's [Martin:] Mm. And of course there is the institute of advanced architectural studies in the University [Ian:] Yes yes [Martin:] I mean I don't know whether they and they run this conservation course you [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] see so I mean they should know [Ian:] They should know who these yeah yeah. [Martin:] who these architects are. Er if you can get in to their see their secretary or somebody er I expect [Ian:] I see. [Martin:] she might be able to [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know or or if any of your erm archaeology know anybody in there or something. [Ian:] I'm sure Jane will [Martin:] Yes. [Ian:] know. [Martin:] Well she may know who are the architects are anyway. [Ian:] She I'm sure she will working with [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] R C H [Martin:] Mm. I think I think that's a a useful sort of line. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm [Ian:] And also to find out more a bit more about the correspondence course [Martin:] Yes exactly you know what it is and [Ian:] I mean clearly I I don't think at the moment I'm in a position to to apply for a a taught course because I don't have the money. [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] So that's out unless erm you know [Martin:] Oh oh that's I was going to say do you do you know about career development loans? [Ian:] No. [Martin:] Well I mean either borrowing the money I'm afraid [Ian:] Yeah yes. [Martin:] but I mean you know they're what what well there there is a sort file out there on them somewhere. Erm and basically what it is is it's a government sponsored this er which erm well the rules may have changed cos they're always changing the rules of these things. Erm er I think they're probably and and they're putting more effort into getting the unemployed off being unemployed off being unemployed into course aren't they so probably the they may have improved things but anyway the basic erm idea of it was that you borrow money er you borrow erm money to finance a course which is going to get you a job. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Now you could claim that this work is it's obviously vocational isn't it. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm er and if you had done some researches into the job opportunities and you you could decide that then that that would be good. Erm and the limit was five thousand pounds for one year but I think they only pay half the fees or something of whatever course it is. And it only courses one year's duration maximum one year. [Ian:] Right yeah well most of these are one year anyway so [Martin:] Well that's fine then erm and what what what happens is that you do it through a bank but there are banks which I think Barclays and the Cooperative Bank and maybe one or two others do it. And erm the the the erm scheme is that the government pays the interest while you're on the course [Ian:] Right yes. [Martin:] and then you have to start paying it back and paying the interest you know. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] So the idea is that you obviously need to get a job pretty quick [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah [Martin:] Erm I mean obviously yo [Ian:] Yeah I mean I'd I'd like to avoid really [Martin:] Going into debt like that if you could but but you might use it to top up [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you see if you can get a certain amount of money yes I mean take out two thousand or something [Ian:] take out a small one thousand pounds short Yeah. [Martin:] Erm it might make a lot of difference to your sort of er [Ian:] Yes yeah. [Martin:] ability to survive the year in without serious discomfort you know to have another [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] thousand quid or something. Erm and then of course there would be a I don't know what the rates of interest are or the payback period but the erm of course the longer the payback period the more it costs you in the end so. [Ian:] Yes [Martin:] But erm I I imagine their rate of interest would be kept fairly low. [Ian:] Yeah well I anyway I shall [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] definitely look into that cos it could you know it it'd be a bit annoying if I was five hundred pounds a thousand pounds short at the end of the day [Martin:] Yeah sure sure you could just do it. And of course I suppose the advantage of that is too that erm if you needed the money to pay the course fees to get on the [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] course well if you get it from them you just get the money and then [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you could er er [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] actually sort of shell it out erm. [Ian:] Yeah. Just I mean out of interest the reason why I didn't take Sheffield [Martin:] Oh yes. [Ian:] one was because they er wanted you for four years for definite after that working in evaluation so basically you're committing yourself for five years [Martin:] Oh did they oh I see yeah. [Ian:] including the course time of course. [Martin:] Yeah. You felt that was a bit long. [Ian:] So that's why I didn't take it. Well it wasn't working in the field that I want to work in. [Martin:] No no no. [Ian:] And I thought you know and I think basically it'd be er sort of assessing the value of buildings for council tax and things like that which is yeah [Martin:] Oh it is yes entirely so I'm sure that's what it is basically. Because it's actually part of the Inland Revenue so I mean [LAUGHTER] that's what they're about [] [Ian:] Yes so they they say you know there's all sorts of things you do farms and you get into the country and you do land as well but I reckon ninety eight percent of of their people are doing houses [LAUGHTER] so [Martin:] Well I suppose you see maybe what they're trying to do I mean as far as I know I mean previously the Inland Revenue or the valuation office part of the Inland Revenue they actually used to run a scheme where [Ian:] Right. [Martin:] worked for them and you qualified while you were working for them. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] And as far as I know that that was the erm most erm sort of financially effective [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] way of actually getting qualified because [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] they really did have a proper scheme and you were paid a sort of reasonable wage [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and you were sort of given the time and and and er er you know I'm sure they paid for the books or whatever you needed [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and and they paid the fees and so on whereas er anywhere else you just work for a firm of estate agents and they pay whether they pay you and the qualifications up to you you go off and do it and you know [Ian:] You don't really I mean I think I don't know maybe working for a char firm of chartered surveyors you have I mean it's the same system isn't working as a dogsbody and then maybe [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] finally working up and [Martin:] Yeah and and [Ian:] You have to do it over four years I think if you do it that way [Martin:] Oh do you? [Ian:] If I think you I mean you can go into it if you've erm I mean the minimum qualification they say is only G C S Es [Martin:] Yeah yeah. [Ian:] Obviously it takes a lot longer to do. [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] Erm so perhaps with a degree it would only take maybe three years [Martin:] Well I think I think er from memory they the the there is a dispensation in the professional erm [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you know qualifications which says that graduates can take it in two years. [Ian:] Right. [Martin:] Can sit the exams in two years [Ian:] If you're working with a chartered surveyors company [Martin:] I think that's probably true [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] I don I don you know erm and so there is a it is reduced. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] And maybe the correspondence slots into that. [Ian:] Yeah yeah. [Martin:] Erm [Ian:] And saying maybe you know I should look up see if I can find some. [Martin:] Well that's another you know route really al although I think your architects [Ian:] Yes I think that's [Martin:] If you could work with [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] an architect who was using you er to to to survey and draw [Ian:] That would be ideal. [Martin:] historical buildings and you just worked with him and you took the exams on the side as it were. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] Erm [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] and he probably wouldn't mind that you were only going to be there for a year or two you know he's getting [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] a good deal out of it so. [Ian:] So I mean there might even be you know might even you might even [Martin:] Might stay on. [Ian:] his he might be able to get other people from where I've you know from the department here who are also interested in that. I'm sure there [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] will be people who would [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] you know jump at the opportunity to get [Martin:] Mhm. [Ian:] to do that so [Martin:] Yeah yeah well yes. Right. [Ian:] Right. [Martin:] Mm. [Ian:] I Shall erm [Martin:] Well does that is that about [Ian:] Yes [Martin:] about it fine okay [Ian:] I mean that's yeah [Martin:] that's given you a bit more [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] food for [Ian:] Yes. [Martin:] thought and so on. Yes and and a sort of a bit of a way forward. Well you sound pretty organized [LAUGHTER] compared to some of them. Erm and you do have a definite sort of track to look at. [Ian:] Yeah I mean a few months ago I had absolutely no idea at all what [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] I was going to do so [Martin:] Yeah yeah. [Ian:] erm I was slowly sort of pulling a few ideas out of thin air. And [LAUGHTER] [Martin:] Yeah yeah well it sounds sounds as though it's possible you know you may have to I mean in the end you might have to sort of compromise it and actually do this valuation thing. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] You know if that was only way to get qualified. [Ian:] Yeah. I mean I think I've already resigned myself to the fact that I'm going to have to do one maybe two years more before I get anything like [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] into the field that I want to be in you know I don't think it's possible to just walk straight in unless you're very lucky. [Martin:] It's no no [Ian:] It's erm [Martin:] Yeah the other thing you might keep an eye on is erm try to develop computing skills. [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] You know as you go along I mean [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] if there's any or or doing that in addition to something you know erm [Ian:] Yes I mean we do do [Martin:] You do some. [Ian:] some and I have done a little bit on AutoCad which is erm making maps and things [Martin:] Oh right. [Ian:] and you do bui plans of buildings on it and that sort of thing as well. Erm so I may sort of look into it a bit more maybe get a bit more experience [Martin:] Yes. [Ian:] and it's erm [Martin:] I suppose of course in fact the that sort of computing is is is fairly erm specialized isn't it [Ian:] Mm. [Martin:] really in a way. But I think even if you're familiar with computers generally and have good keyboard skills that's [Ian:] and also knowing what's available and you know how things work [Martin:] Well that's yeah [Ian:] like or something [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] where you take a picture of a building and you [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] can see which [Martin:] Right. [Ian:] er parts are old and things like that and [Martin:] Yeah. [Ian:] all sorts of things which are available which if I just brushed up on so at least if I went to an interview I'd be able to talk about [Martin:] And you could talk about it yes I I think that's it. You've got to be able to put on a bit of an act [Ian:] Yeah yeah. [Martin:] at the interview. If they subsequently discover that actually your knowledge is pretty sketchy but at least you've got some well [Ian:] Yeah. [Martin:] you probably at least know enough to go off and get started [Ian:] Yeah yeah. [Martin:] and then sort it out you know. Mm great. Okay well good luck with it anyway. [LAUGHTER] Oh oh right I'd better turn this thing off now erm [tape ends]

[speaker001:] to to do [John:] To build up a dictionary to see how words are used. Because you see erm say if you look at business letters, erm people say I should be very grateful if. People don't talk like that, they say I'd be grateful. they don't talk so the language changes all the time, and each time they bring out a new d dictionary they try to say erm this is the way people talk, and bring it up to date so that we're not all talking in the past. And new words as they come in and new meanings of words like people might say erm, Oh I'm I'm well pleased. or something or they'll say you know is it any good they'll say, Oh it's really wicked. And you think, Oh what does this mean? and you look it up in a dictionary wicked and you think, Oh [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [John:] that doesn't sound too good. But there's a so there's another meaning comes into it and they update the dictionary like this and they they listen to the tapes and find out how people use it, and how language changes. That's all it's about.... Now what were we looking at last time?... [Ian:] Big nasty [John:] Oh that exam that I thought was probably [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] erm [Ian:] I done it. [John:] a bit difficult. [Ian:] I done it, I'm just trying to find it. [John:] And you did very well on the geometry didn't you? [Ian:] Yeah. I I got to that erm question you know you said couldn't do any the geometry do the rest. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] So I got up to that one but... [John:] You've been doing Venn diagrams as well? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Is that is that recent or is that the old stuff the Venn diagrams? [Ian:] What do you mean by recent? [John:] Have you done it in the last sort of few weeks? [Ian:] Oh yeah it's the last few weeks. [John:] Good. No problem with that? [Ian:] No. [John:] No? [Ian:] Been learning that in school. [John:] We we did one didn't we a lot long time ago did we do one on football? Erm who's supporting Liverpool and Everton. [Ian:] No we didn't never gone over the Venn diagrams. [John:] Okay. Well if if you're happy with Venn diagrams fine leave it. Erm... I suppose got here a bit later you would have had more time to sort this lot out. [Ian:] . I can't find it anywhere. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] I I did do it [John:] It's a I mean no it's up to you if you say you've done it that's fine by me. Erm do you think you got it all sorted out, no problem with it? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Great. [Ian:] Apart from one question I think it was question nine. [John:] Right let's [Ian:] But [John:] have a look at that [Ian:] I'll try and get the paper. Hang on. [John:] Oh that was that was it wasn't it because they had erm the pentagons joined up. [whispering] Is that your answer to it? [] No it was different one that's [Ian:] No that one that's a different [John:] that's a project is it? [Ian:] No this this is this is just a maths paper. We've got a big erm like cupboard in in the school and they've they've got loads of paper threes paper twos. So I [John:] So you [Ian:] helped myself to a load of paper threes and I seem to have done them all. I wiped the school clean of paper threes. [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] That's great. So whatever sort of question comes up you will have seen something like it wouldn't you? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Well that'really great. [Ian:] Ah is this it? That's it [John:] That's it. [Ian:] and this is [John:] your answer. [Ian:] my answers. I think. [John:] Ah. [Ian:] Is it? [John:] Okay? [Ian:] Hang on. [John:] Could be. I I I'll have a look at the question. [Ian:] No that's for that one unfortunately. [John:] Ah that be That's one two three. Right okay.... Number nine, transformations. Translations and rotations and reflections. Is that the one that you had the problem with? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] hang on. Hang on. Yeah that one and number ten, these parts here. [John:] Okay. Using a graph. Er where should we start?... Start with number ten I think. Because graphs particularly distance and time graphs I mean both of these are very likely to come up, you'll get a translation of some sort, and you'll get a distance time graph but the the the graphs or... distance against time er are useful in other problems as well. Erm yeah we'll look at that.... Okay don't worry about the ones you did, if you're if you're happy with them [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] erm it might be an id if you can find them for next time [Ian:] Yeah I will yeah. [John:] So I can just have a quick check and make sure they are okay, but I'm pretty sure if you think they're right [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] they'll be right. So... What did you make of this number ten then? [Ian:] I think first part to it, but... then er... it seemed to go downhill so to speak.... [John:] So you had a formula... you had a formula for calculating... the value.... I haven't read the question I saw V equals and I thought it was velocity. It's the value of a car. Number of miles it's travelled.... Okay erm can you tell me in words what that formula means really?... Erm if the car has done a lot of mileage, will you get a lot of money for it or will you get less money? [Ian:] You get more money. [John:] let's say the car's done no mileage at all, how much would you get for it? [Ian:] Nothing. [John:] You get that. You'll get nine thousand five hundred okay?... If it's done a thousand miles, you'd get nine thousand five hundred and then cos of the mileage they'd take off a thousand divided by ten, so they'd take a hundred pounds off that. You only get nine thousand four hundred.... Okay? Are you happy with that? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Right so... I won't draw a graph, but we'll see if we can work out a sketch of a graph, roughly what it's like. Erm what's the value going to be doing? This is this is the mileage going along there, that's the number of miles that the car has done, and that's its value. As the miles get more and more and more is the value going to get bigger or get smaller? [Ian:] Smaller. [John:] Right so it's going to be something like I mean this isn't anything like to scale but it's going to be something like this perhaps.... Okay. It starts off at some value here and it goes down until eventually when it's done a certain number of miles the car's worth nothing. Yeah? So if we can find out where those these are the important points, where it cuts that axis and where it cuts that one. So... this point is where it's done no miles. How much is it worth when it's done no miles, well they give you that one anyway. It'll be nine thousand five hundred, take off N times zero over a hundred. Well don't take anything off. So it's still worth the nine thousand five hundred. got nine thousand five hundred up there. Now... complete so what do they want us to do? Complete that table, plot a straight line graph and use your graph to find these values. Okay.... We've got V is equal to nine thousand five hundred, that's how much it's worth, and then take away... N over ten. Take away... a tenth of a pound for every mile. Yeah? So when will it be worth nothing? When will it have gone right down to nothing?... In other words when is when is V equal to zero? Oh we've got a an equation for V. So wherever we've got V put zero. Zero equals... nine thousand five hundred minus one tenth of N. Are you happy with that? This this expression here V nine thousand five hundred minus a tenth of N that always tells us what V is worth, anywhere along here it'll give us the value of the car. Now what if... what happens as N gets bigger and bigger as it's done more and more [Ian:] The value [John:] miles. [Ian:] The value goes lower. [John:] Right every time N gets bigger it means we're taking more and more of this nine thousand five hundred. So if it's done ten thousand miles, we'd take a tenth of ten thousand, we'd take a thousand pounds off this. If it had done nine thousand five hundred miles, how much would we take off?... hey? [Ian:] Ninety five. [John:] Nine nine nine fifty yeah Okay nine hundred and fifty divided by ten. Oh that would still leave us with something left over. So the value is getting less and less and less. The value is always equal to, at any point it's always equal to nine thousand five hundred take away a tenth of the number of miles it's done. So when does the value come down to zero, well it comes down to zero when the bit we're taking away... is equal to that. Yeah? So we'll just use this equation. Just say V is equal to this but we want to find out when nought is equal to it. Nine five O minus would it help if we used X instead of N? [Ian:] No [John:] No? Okay. Minus one tenth of N, so you've got an equation there and we want to find N. But we've got a fraction in it,... so what would you what would you do? What would be the first what would be the first thing you'd want to do? [Ian:] Get rid of [John:] The fraction. [Ian:] the fraction. [John:] How could you do that? You have a go and see what what would you multiply by to get rid of the facti fraction.... Or maybe maybe that isn't the first thing you want to do, if you want to do it a different way, do it whichever makes more sense to you.... [Ian:] I wouldn't know how to go about starting, you know trying to get rid of this fraction. [John:] Okay if we got if let's let's leave the fraction there for a moment then. Just write the equation out again... and let's get the we'll write it as N over ten shall we? Let's get the N over ten onto this side. So what would we need to do to make that disappear? [Ian:] Add it to both sides. [John:] Add add N over ten to that side and add N over ten to that side, okay if you want to tidy it up and see what it comes to. What's that going to come to? [Ian:] N ten. [John:] N over ten on the left yeah.... [Ian:] and ninety five. [John:] And nine thousand five hundred. Ninety five hundred yeah. Okay. Now how could you get rid of [Ian:] Mm multiply ten by both sides. [John:] Exactly multiply both sides by ten.... So how do you multiply by ten? The what's the quick trick for multiplying by ten? [Ian:] Add another nought [John:] That's it just add another nought on. [Ian:] Ninety five thou [John:] So it's ninety five thousand. So when the car's done ninety five thousand it's worth nothing. So we've found the other bit on our graph now. We know that up there it goes to nine thousand five hundred and along here... it gets to ninety five thousand. Now... where it goes negative a negative value I don't think we'd be interested in that, that means that the car's got to the point where you have to pay someone to take it away. And the more miles it's done, the more you pay them to [LAUGHTER]. So it doesn't make a lot of sense after that point the graph. So now we know... what's going on here what the what the graph's going to look like. We've got some others to fill in. It tells us this this isn't doing exactly what it said here right. What it says here is... zero... N is zero, the value is nine thousand five hundred. When N is two thousand, what's the value? Four thousand, six thousand, eight thousand okay. And you plot the graph. Erm we'll use those points as well. Now this techniques we've been using here is for you can use that for any straight line graph. What happens when the one that's going along there the the X normally in this case the number of miles. What happens when that's zero? Well that's the value. And then the other one is well what value of X would make Y zero? What number of miles would make the value zero? Then we'll get those two points and that'll give us our straight line. And when we calculate these other points they should fit on it as well. Are you happy with that? [Ian:] Erm. Yeah I understand it li like when you're teaching me but I don't think I I I understood you know how you were doing it. [John:] Okay. That's that's that problem. Let's do a different one. [Ian:] It's like the graphs you know [John:] Right. [Ian:] I'm not too sure on graphs. You know like [John:] Okay. This this is [Ian:] when when they stop and the time goes on what's the time between this that they go [John:] Right. [Ian:] What's the speed he's travelling at? [John:] Yeah this is the This comes in quite a lot. Spee distance time graphs and speed so let's let's have a look at er [Ian:] Do you want to use [John:] a different I'll just I'll just sketch them on here then you can when we get one sorted out you can draw one on there. Let's have a look. So here's a graph and we'll say the distance... let's see the distance is equal to erm a constant speed let's say he's doing sixty miles an hour. Well we won't write S we'll write distance. The distance he's travelled is equal to sixty miles per hour... times the number of hours, he's been travelling for okay? So he's driving along the motorway at steady sixty. Erm how far would he go in one hour?... Steady sixty miles [Ian:] S sixty miles. [John:] How far would he go in erm half an hour? [Ian:] Thirty miles. [John:] And in two hours? [Ian:] A hundred and twenty miles. [John:] Okay. So we want to draw a picture, that's all a graph is, a picture so it's eas so we can... get a good idea of what's happening and we can also read off at any time. So we'll have up here, how many miles he's going. Erm... fancy breaking the speed limit. So shall we change it make it a hundred miles an hour. Okay he's doing a hundred miles an hour. Along along the bottom time if time is one of the things you're working with it just about always goes along the bottom. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So this is this is the time... in hours. Up here is how far he's travelled in hundreds of miles say. One hundred, two hundred okay.... And five hundred, six hundred. Now what happens when he's just starting off from home? Well the distance is equal to a hundred miles an hour, times how many hours has been travelling for? None. we've only just started off. So when time is at none, zero, we haven't started yet, how far is he he's zero, he hasn't moved anywhere. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] So there's one point. How far has he got after two mile after two hours? Distance equals one hundred times the time. So [Ian:] two two hundred miles. [John:] He's gone two hundred. So after two he's gone two hundred. Erm how far's he gone after six hu after six hours? [Ian:] Six hundred miles. [John:] Right so after six, three, four, five, six, he's gone six hundred. Okay now if we join those up,... I've got one here it's okay. If we join, we've got three points now once we know it's a straight line, three points is enough. Two is enough really but just to be on the safe side use three and if they don't all lie in the same straight line then one of them's wrong. You don't know which one you'd have to check all of them again. So we've drawn the graph and now we don't have to keep calcul I mean this is easy it'probably easier to work it out in your head then to especially with these figures. But say the figure had been erm fo he's travelling at forty eight point three miles an hour, and you want to know how far he's gone after twenty seven minutes or something, it's a bit more awkward then so it'd be easier to look it up on a graph. Once we drew this picture. Up there is how far away from home he is in miles along there is the time he's been travelling for. that's travelling time. So without working it out, but using the graph now, how far would he be after three and a half hours? Three and a half is about there. Look up there, what do we get? Actually it comes out to four hundred cos I haven't drawn these properly come up come out to three fifty. Let's draw those in properly. One two and so on like that. Erm that was an easy one that was a nice simple one. Well now I'd like you to do one. [Ian:] Er. [John:] Do the hard I do the easy one you do the hard one. This time it's the distance he's travelled is given by erm... What speed shall we let him go at? Twenty five miles an hour say. Twenty... let's make it twenty miles an hour. This time he's a cyclist he's a racing cyclist and he's keeping up a steady twenty. So it's twenty miles an hour times the number of... So the distance which is in miles is equal to twenty miles an hour times hours.... Okay could you draw a graph of that?... And use you're you're not going it's not going to be negative is it? [Ian:] No. [John:] So use all your all your paper go down quite a bit. Just leave yourself a little bit to write underneath it.... You're going to need some sort of scale well.... Miles per hour.... So how many squares have we got up here? Roughly. [whispering] twenty or so. [] [Ian:] Mm thirty. [John:] [whispering] About thirty okay. [] Let's say let's make it erm one square going up there is ten miles. Okay so you could mark that off in ten in ten mile steps.... And we want to know let's say we're interested in a a time of about ten hours or something.... Okay that's fine. So... along there if we have two squares is equal to one hour.... Now... we've got a formula, so we build up a little table. there okay something like this. A good one to start with is so if we put time along the top here. Yeah? Erm T and underneath we'll have distance. A good one to start with is what happens when the time is equal to zero? If he's been travelling for for zero hours, how far has he gone? [Ian:] No miles. [John:] No miles okay. Erm if he's another easy one is if he's been travelling for one hour how far has he gone? [Ian:] Twenty miles. [John:] Twenty miles okay. And if he's been travelling for ten hours, how far's he gone? [Ian:] Two hundred miles. [John:] Right okay. Now we've got three points there it's probably they they give you four here so we'll do another one erm, when he's been travelling for five hours how far's he gone?... So it will be for that one it'll be [Ian:] One hundred. [John:] That's it yeah. Great so it's twenty miles an hour times five hours equals one hundred miles. So now we've got a table and you've got four values in, which is plenty. So if you'd like to plot those.... Okay now check they all lie on a straight line. If they don't then one of them's wrong. They do. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] That's a very good... indication that you got everything correct. It might not be cos you might have got the formula wrong and you've got every one of them wrong but it's usually a good sign. So just join those up.... And now you can ask I can sort of ask you questions on it like if he's been travelling for let's say If he's if he's covered sixty miles how long has he been riding for?... So you think you can use that set square actually which helps.... He's he's travelled sixty miles... come down that way... [Ian:] Three hours. [John:] He's been going for three hours. Okay erm If he's done two hundred miles, how long has he been riding for? [Ian:] Ten hours. [John:] Okay now looking at it the other way, you see we we had those points but we don't know what happens over here. If he'd been cycling for fourteen hours, let's say fifteen hours.... If he'd been cycling for fifteen hours, you you have a look and tell me how far he would have gone.... [Ian:] Three hundred miles. [John:] Okay now any problems with that? [Ian:] No. [John:] I think you understand that [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] very well don't you, that's all there is to it. It's use your equation to make a little table. What happens nought is a good one to go for. Now what happens when he hasn't done any time at all and time is just starting off. Where is he? Well usually usually not always but just about always he's at home he hasn't gone anywhere so how far away is he zero as well so you get zero zero goes through the origin. And then you just put the numbers in for different hours into the equation into the formula that tells you how far he's gone, work it out. So let's try another one and I'll give you some of the details and the questions that I'm going to ask on it later. Now with this one the one we've just done you don't really know how far to go I mean I might have been going to ask erm how long has he been travelling if he's been riding for a thousand hours. And you're your graph paper [LAUGHTER] [] few metres long, or you'd have to cramp this scale up quite a bit bring it closer together. So we'll do something similar if erm the train... Shall I make it very awkward? [speaker001:] Yes. [John:] Yes. The train leaves... this is an express it leaves Euston at some time, we don't know when, at some time. Okay and it doesn't stop anywhere it's going all the way up to Scotland before it stops. And it does a steady what shall we have? Sixty miles an hour, eighty. Eighty miles per hour. Right. Hello I'm sorry to mess up your tea and everything. I was explaining I got [speaker001:] Oh no it's it's alright. [John:] so many changes in lessons and everything today [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] had something else that I was just doing and I thought Oh I should be at Ian's for five o'clock. I didn't look at my timetable which I've got with me. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] [LAUGHTER] And I got here early. [speaker001:] It's alright he'd practically finished anyway it was alright. [John:] Hello hello hello. [speaker001:] Oh yes nosey. Come on. [John:] late and I was early. [speaker001:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You alright. Mm? You're a cute little thing aren't you? [speaker001:] Come on Taff. Out you come. [John:] Cheerio Taffy. [speaker001:] Out. [John:] See you later. [speaker001:] Out. [John:] that way [speaker001:] Out. [John:] Go on shoo. [LAUGHTER] [Ian:] Thanks for the coffee thanks. [speaker001:] Okay. [John:] It goes a steady eighty miles an hour right. Now when it's been travelling for three hours... it goes through Manchester.... Okay... and when it's been travelling for five hours... it goes through erm what's another station up there? let's say Carlisle something like that. And when it's been travelling for seven hours it gets into... Glasgow.... Okay. It goes it goes through Manchester and it goes through Carlisle it doesn't stop. Doesn't stop from Euston it doesn't stop till it gets into Glasgow. Now what we want to do is try and draw some sort of picture for that. Any ideas?... What's happening there? What we're going to try and find out erm so instead of having these three hours and things we'll say at at three o'clock... it goes through Manchester... and at five o'clock... it goes through Carlisle. At seven o'clock it goes through it gets into Glasgow. Right now we want to find out what time it les it left Euston. And we want to know how far is it between Carlisle and Glasgow, between Manchester and Glasgow and between Euston and Glasgow. Pretty impossible task eh? And we're going to do it with a graph. Any ideas what what could you look at that sort of question and you think this is impossible. Yeah? No chance of working any of this lot out. But they say draw a graph. That's all they's told you. A steady eighty miles an hour and where it was at these times. So... We know the graph is going to look something like this.... There's time... and there's distance.... And time seven o'clock okay? [whispering] [] Seven o'clock when it gets into Glasgow and five o'clock when it gets into Carlisle and three o'clock when it goes through three o'clock when it goes through Manchester.... Mm we don't know what what what could we put in? Could we put part of the graph in do you think?... How far apart are Manchester and Carlisle going to be?... [Ian:] Hundred and sixty miles. [John:] Right it takes two hours it's going at a steady sixty, great, so we know that's a hundred and sixty. And what about the other two Carlisle and Glasgow? [Ian:] A hundred and sixty. [John:] That's a hundred and sixty okay. Erm and we need some more information there but let's say we know that Euston to Manchester is a hundred and sixty as well okay? Let's say that's erm Euston to Manchester is a hundred and sixty miles, so where would Euston be on this?... [Ian:] It'd be there. [John:] Okay so that would be at one o'clock and there's another hundred and sixty.... So those mileages go up here. Now if if we start up here somewhere.... Let's draw the line in first.... can decide what this is. Erm... From there to... there let's make it er...... Okay that's a hundred and sixty, that's a hundred and sixty, that's a hundred and sixty... That's seven o'clock and that's five o'clock, three o'clock... and that's one o'clock. So... that's what the graphs going to look like. Now you wouldn't get one as hard as that in an exam. But I think you could do that sort erm provided you didn't sort of panic no chance of doing this okay? What what do you think of it now? That sort of question. You still think it's [Ian:] What I've you know when you're like given a plain axis and I have to decide what to put on the sides I I'm sometimes a bit [John:] So is it which one goes top and which goes along? Is that okay, to work that out or not sure about that? [Ian:] I'm not sure [John:] Okay. Well there's an easy way to divide that. If they give you an equation like this let's say the weight you're making up a a load for a lorry and you're putting erm crates on with car engines in, and the car engine weighs erm I dunno say it weighs a hundred kilograms. Erm what will the... the equation you get will be something like this, the weight is equal to... a hundred times N okay where N is the number of engines that you've got on. Okay so you could work that out for well how much would it weigh if we put five engines on? Yeah? Or how much would it weigh if we put ten engines on? Now when you see the equation like that, the one that's on the left hand side. the weight equals, the one on the left hand side that equals something that you have to calculate. The weight is the one that goes up there in the Y direction. And the one that's part of the calculation goes along the X axis okay. So this one you'd mark off... one two three... and this they would actually use this erm... if they were loading lorries they could use this sort of thing. Er so... one two three Could you dr could you draw that one then? I'll cover that up again.... Just draw a graph of that. Weight is equal to a hundred times the number of engines. The weight in kilograms is a hundred times the number of engines we've got. Erm whatever whatever units will fit the paper.... So do do it on your graph paper okay.... Turn that over.... And let's say the maximum number of engines we can ever have will be up to about twenty five.... So use use a bit more.... Take you can take it right long to the end. You don't need to go actually to the end with your numbers but you can take your line right along there cos you might find at the last minute there's an extra one you want to put on. So I'll just give you the equation you can write the equation ion the on the graph paper.... W equals a hundred times N.... Where N is the number of engines and it's the weight in kilograms. Now good that's a really brilliant point on any graph to put the units in because they give marks for that, when they see your graph they want to see you've put the units on. And along there would be... number of engines N.... Now the maximum number of engines you you're going to have we know is going to be twenty five. So how long have you got along there roughly? [Ian:] Fifty. [John:] About fifty. Have you got fifty, cos you had thirty last time didn't you. [Ian:] Yeah that one. [John:] Okay and we can get about fifty there can we? Erm... Three squares to the centimetre and we've got... twenty five yeah so we'll get erm we'll get fifty on fifty squares so twenty five engines to fit along that space of fifty.... [Ian:] One every centimetre [John:] Mm. One every centimetre okay that'll make it one every three squares. Three squares is a bit awkward to deal with. That's that's good that's the best scale for getting it very accurate, that's great. Erm it might be better to go for two squares is one engine and they'll fit on okay. So if you mark off that... every every two squares is probably one engine.... So you've put your marks every two squares, but you don't need to write all the numbers in you could just write say erm... two, four, six, eight or you could just write five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five. And that would probably be a good enough start just put five, ten. So put those in.... Oh hang on hang on hang on. Yeah these are ones okay that's one, two, three, four, five. [Ian:] Oh I see what you mean I thought [John:] Okay No sorry I didn't make that clear erm mark every fifth put the number on every fifth one. Five, six, seven, eight, nine okay. [tape ends] to get so you've worked out your scale for this one that goes along the X axis. What's the biggest weight you're going to get if it was twenty five of them what would it come to? [Ian:] Twenty five hundred. [John:] Twenty five hundred. And how far how many have you got along there roughly?... Okay sixteen times three you've got almost you can almost get fifty up there wouldn't you. If you'd have brought your scale down a bit you would [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] have got it on. But okay maybe we won't go to twenty five. So use the same up there. Mark every second square, and each one's a each one is a hundred kilograms. [Ian:] Every second square? Like [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] that's a hundred, two hundred [John:] Yeah.... Okay.... And the sec yeah be very careful when you're marking each second one because that one [Ian:] Oh ooh. [John:] Right it is very easy to do you just get into a nice little plodding along [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] and you're not thinking and the next minute you do that and your graph goes all out then. That's it.... So you might think why don't I make it easy and make it one square. Because they're not one of them will be two squares and one of them bill we be one and so you need to get used to working with them like that. Okay... now you need to work out a table. Ah you've got W equals a hundred times N. So we do a little thing like this.... And we put N on the top... right. N and W. So what values are you going to try? I mean they will normally give you them but erm what would be an obvious one to go for? [Ian:] N's nought. [John:] Right okay when N is nought when there's no engines what's the weight? [Ian:] Nothing. [John:] Right.... So there's a there's a good point I mean very often you'll get this point in the origin not always though so you have to watch that. And how about when erm you've got ten engines what would that weigh? [Ian:] One thousand. [John:] Okay. And when you've got twenty engines. [Ian:] the squares.... Yeah? [John:] Yeah. When you've twenty engines... what will that be? [Ian:] Two thousand. [John:] Okay.... If you use a ruler or some sort of straight edge it really does help because it's very [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] easy when you go right across from one end of the page to the other to be a square up or a square down. And then you can't work out why your graph seems to have a kink in it. Okay. Are they in a straight line?... Mm. [Ian:] No. [John:] So something's gone wrong. Okay. One of those points isn't right so let's have a look check them again zero... zero that's alright. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] What's the next one? Ten... when it's ten when we've got ten engines the weight should be one thousand. So there's ten and if you use your set square like that go along the ten and to the one thousand. That's okay.... Right twenty... Ah not quite on the twenty.... Two thousand... yeah it is it is. Right twenty two thousand. So the points seem okay what's wrong? they're not in a straight line. They should be cos it's a straight line equation. What's going wrong? What else could be wrong?... [Ian:] The erm size [John:] Right so this this you made here... when you you suddenly went up one instead of going up by two, so check the scale now. Er let's check the bottom one. Let's see how that's going. So each one of these is one engine. One so maybe you can write them all on now go along and write them on. One,... Okay so that looks fine. Now what's happening up here, we're going up in hundreds. So do they go up did they all go along two squares at a time? Yeah okay. Do these all go up two squares at a time? One, two, three, four... Yeah... Now what's gone wrong here?... Ah right [Ian:] down. [John:] Go on have you spotted anything yet? [Ian:] Down here it's one, two, three, four, five, six [John:] Right. [Ian:] and then seven? [John:] And then suddenly [Ian:] Nine and then it goes [John:] suddenly [Ian:] two hundred. [John:] Right you started so you're going up in hundreds, it's two squares at a time, but only one hundred for each two squares. So you're quite happy with that, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, six hundred oh I can do this standing on my head, right and you s you stop concentrating so much, and you've gone up to, so that should be a seven hundred [Ian:] Seven. [John:] okay. So if you'd like to correct the other's now.... Sixteen hundred. Right now this one this one's going to be off our scale anyway so let's pick fifteen, N is fifteen. So go through and check them again now. [Ian:] Nought [John:] No engines, no weight that's okay, let's put a just leave that and put a tick on it. Now the next one ten and one thousand.... Ten engines... [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah... okay so we can just sort of scrub that out or something. [Ian:] Fifteen fifteen hundred. [John:] Okay put that one in.... [LAUGHTER] Right now we'll scrub that one out, that point's rubbish now. Now try them see if it's a straight line.... Right. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? So the first time you did it you were pretty happy with it weren't you? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] that's okay that's got that. You'd done the hard part correctly, calculating what the weight would be for so many engines. Working out your table, your table was correct nothing wrong with that. But... because the scale was this funny thing of well two of them means one hundred, you're going along two at a time and it happens so often. [Ian:] I don't even know why I done that. [John:] You don't, nobody knows why, I've done it myself. Nobody knows why they do it but you do. You're going up two squares at a time and you're going one two three and it's usually when you get to around where I tend to do it is erm sort of eight and ten. I go one two three four five six seven eight ten twelve fourteen sixteen and I'll I'll think this graph's rubbish, oh I've got the scales wrong. It's so easy to do. So [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] check it when you've done your scale. I mean you've done it you think, Well I know it's right, there's no point checking it, I've just done it. I wouldn't do it deliberately wrong but it's so [Ian:] It was just I I was just looking at there them down there. [John:] Yeah okay. [Ian:] And I was thinking, Oh what's going on? [John:] But I wanted I mean I'm glad you made the mistake because I wanted you to do it, because I wanted you to do it because as i you know you might you might get it right all the time and then do that in the exam. [Ian:] Mhm. [John:] Erm much better to get it wrong now and you can see [Ian:] Why [John:] No one knows why you do it I mean you you know you know what you should be doing, and it's not difficult it's just so boring. It's so repetitive marking your scale and people just lose concentration and I can do this you know and the next minute you you you've gone up in twos instead of ones. Happens a lot. So you've got your graph now and then they'd have a question on it and they might say, Erm what would be the weight with five engines? It now again we're picking... Okay? Right now I'd like you to do this one on your own. It's a similar question. This time the weight... of the lorry, it's the weight of the lorry we're interested it's a say it's a small van. Erm and the weight of the lorry is equal to eight hundred plus a hundred N. Yeah? And... yeah leave it like that eight hundred plus a hundred N. It's sh shall we make shall we I'm just trying to think of making it a no I won't make it any more awkward. We'll leave it like that. Erm if you could draw a graph and use this table, N, zero, weight, whatever it comes to, erm... four... six... eight... ten.... Okay?... So if you can draw that one. The weight of the lorry, see the lorry weighs something itself so its total weight when it's got its load on is eight hundred plus a hundred times the number of engines on it. So you've got to do your table. [Ian:] calculator. [John:] Erm erm no. [LAUGHTER] Right you can do that can't you.... [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] You can do the hundreds. What you can do here,... if you like... is put W there. here we could have a hundred N right and then we'd add eight hundred on to each one couldn't we. I mean you can use a calculator if you like but have a go without.... Okay?... Okay and tell me what you're thinking as you're doing it. [Ian:] Ah what it is I want to find W so I can find that axis as well what [John:] Okay. [Ian:] that's gonna go have to go up to. [John:] Good. [Ian:] You know so I'll I'll do the table before I [John:] Right. [Ian:] do the graph. [John:] Okay good. [Ian:] Cos I might do a like a big graph like and and I only need a little tiny [John:] and you'll little tiny bit. Or you've done a tiny bit and you need something that's not [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] on your graph yeah. So [Ian:] Four times a hundred four hundred plus eight hundred is twelve hundred. [John:] So write write it in there what a hundred N is, four hundred.... [whispering] Four hundred. [] And what about this one erm nought? [Ian:] Nought times erm is nothing [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] plus eight hundred is eight hundred. [John:] Right. [Ian:] Yeah that's six hundred [John:] Right. [Ian:] ... erm eight hundred is fourteen hundred. [John:] Right.... [Ian:] Eight hundred... That [LAUGHTER] looked like a one then []. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Erm add eight hundred... sixteen hundred thousand... [John:] Okay and the question is now... you you could do it just by working it out with the formula. But they say, Draw the graph and then read off, what would the weight the total weight be what is W when N equals fifteen and when N equal nine. okay?... [Ian:] Do you want me to do it by doing the graph or [John:] Just say let's say they also want you to do I want you to do the graph er they wanted this one where it was twenty as well okay.... Twenty times a hundred what would that be? [Ian:] Two thousand. [John:] Right okay good.... [Ian:] There was a I ju I just looked there [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] I was being a bit lazy with myself then erm I just I just looked there and I was gonna double that [John:] Mm. [Ian:] and I I found I'd just put a hundred there instead and that's why I put two hundred [John:] It's so easy. [Ian:] there. [John:] Right. It's so [Ian:] I just [John:] easy when you're working with figures that are going up in regular steps and they all go up in regular steps and they all go up in regular steps and the next one doesn't. And you just, Wow this is easy this, add another two hundred on or [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah? So watch that in an exam. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [] [John:] Cos you can you could do yeah you know you could you could this question on graphs and you come out the exam thinking, Wow great full marks on that. and you say, Well what did you get. Oh I didn't get that. Oh dear er ooh. and you find that you just slipped up on the scale or even on the calculating your table because you just, Oh this is easy this is easy. and you're not really concentrating. [Ian:] Yeah. Okay twenty eight hundred. Two thousand eight hundred right so. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] W on the Y axis. [John:] That's it. [Ian:] So it's got to go up to two thousand eight hundred.... [John:] Awkward? [Ian:] Yeah.... [John:] Two square to get erm... to go up in hundreds for two squares you'd want erm fifty squares wouldn't you. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Well just use one square, makes it easier. [Ian:] One square each. [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] Is twenty eight squares. [John:] It's not going to be as accurate and not going to be as easy to read it off but [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] if you can't fit it on your paper. Erm now is there any thing any other way you could do it? If you wanted it more accurate than that.... What you can do is you could turn the graph that way up. you still have your W going up this way and you have your N going along that way. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Okay? It might work out better that way. Could you get you say this is about fifty. Could you get fifty six along there?... [Ian:] Probably yeah. [John:] Okay okay so... erm lo lose that little bit there sixteen, sixteen and thirteen? [Ian:] Twenty [John:] Twenty nine. [Ian:] twenty nine. [John:] Okay.... And we're getting three squares to the centimetre so we go up there two centimetres and we get the so if we go up every two squares [Ian:] That three squares every centimetre? It's quite [John:] Sorry two. [Ian:] Two. [John:] Two you're right how did I how did I get how did I come out with three last time? Two squares every centimetre okay so we've got twenty nine so it will just fit on nicely [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] and we sort of get the [Ian:] Very little [John:] Yeah again it's not brilliant to do it this way but it will just fit on. So take that one along there. Right... and then as we go along... what have we got going along?... That goes up to about sixteen... Ooh we'll just fit twenty on. And we don't need to outside this at all cos the ones they're asking us are inside. So you'd get that one there. there's ten okay? [Ian:] Mm. [John:] And there's... another ten and we'll just about fit it on if we go right up to the edge of the paper sort of leave one square. And you might think well where are we going to put the scale? Well we'll put it just put it the other side of the line. It's only to how us where it is. Okay so that's nought along here going up in twos I'll let you do that for for hundreds. Yeah we're going to go up to two thousand eight hundred aren't we so we're going up in [Ian:] Two hundreds. [John:] Each two is equal to one hundred, is that right? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So there's two squares there one hundred.... Okay?... Stop there a minute I know that's the way I started off. Er how are you doing on just going up in hundreds and not two hundreds? Have you checked. [Ian:] Yeah. About here I was I just had the urge you know [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] at twelve [John:] especially somewhere [Ian:] to go [John:] round the ten every happens to everyone they work you know ten twelve is the obvious one to go for the go eight nine ten twelve fourteen and then once you do it you don't realize you've done it and you don't stop. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Ian:] But [John:] a good a good way is to mark these twos out first yeah, and get them all marked. I know it's a little bit longer but then when you're going up later [Ian:] You don't [John:] You're not see you're not thinking in twos you're not thinking I'll go up one and up two squares and okay. So you could carry on along there. Now what's going to happen along the right hand axis we go up to twenty and so we can go along there in twos and it'll just fit on. Okay so then if you'd like to mark that out in twos.... Another way of doing it of course is that as you're [Ian:] Hang on. Going up in twos every two [John:] You j right two sorry two squares erm is one engine. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] I should have been a bit a bit clearer about that. Now as we've got... nought one with a bit more room to fit in it it works a lot better. We can just look at them sort of measure them off right there's two... three, four, five okay. So you're using the ruler to go along. So if you want to just... go along there and mark them off.... Any way that you can think of that will help to get these axes right because most of the time it's going to be this sort of thing I mean you said, Do you want me to work it you know use the graph or just work it out from this. It would be easier to work it out from this wouldn't it? [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] The so the equations they give you your ability to handle equations means really it would be easier for you to do it without a graph, half the time. But they want you to use the graph and that's what they're giving the marks for. the twenty okay? [Ian:] mark. [John:] So zero... yeah zero is where? [Ian:] eight hundred. [John:] Okay. [Ian:] So... [John:] Right. and four is at? [Ian:] Twelve hundred.... [John:] Six is at? [Ian:] Yeah hold on....... [John:] Okay looking okay so far aren't they. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Erm so [Ian:] should I go on [John:] Yeah carry on with those. Fourteen.... Okay? So [Ian:] Yeah. Ten [John:] er did we do six? [Ian:] Oh no we've got [John:] Six at fourteen. Eight? [Ian:] Hang on... eight at... eight at what? [John:] Eight at [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] sixteen hundred.... Ten? [Ian:] Ten eighteen.... And twenty [John:] Twenty at two thousand eight hundred.... Okay and they should all be in a straight line.... Looks like it... [Ian:] Yeah. I'll just and check them.... [John:] Well that's lovely isn't it one beautiful straight line. You expect it to go a little bit just a tiny bit off [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] about half a square or so off. Erm a long ruler is a help. So when N is fifteen what's the weight?... [Ian:] Twenty three hundred. [John:] Okay.... And when N is nine what's the weight?... [Ian:] Seventeen.... [John:] Okay. Now what I'd like you to do I didn't realize it'd got that late actually. What I'd like you to do is do this question again now okay?... And erm draw the graph for that work it all out yourself and another one. It's similar to that but it's very different.... This is the this is the question then, W equals eight hundred minus a hundred N. There's a lorry loaded up with a lot of engines, and it goes off dropping them off and as it as you take an engine so N is the number of engines taken off. Now it's not eight hundred minus a hundred N because it starts of with erm twenty engines on already right. Let's say it starts of with just to make it a bit easier for you so it doesn't come like this let's say it starts with fifteen engines on, and what's its weight with fifteen engines on? Two thousand three hundred. Is is that right? Fifteen times a hundred plus the eight hundred yeah two thousand three hundred. Okay. So it's weight is two thousand three hundred minus a hundred N. Yeah I'd like you to draw a graph of that N is the number of engines taken off. Erm you might have you might st start thinking I don't know what he's getting on I don't know what this is all about. What's what's he mean by it what am I supposed to do. Just have a go at producing that graph and from it find out what is W when... four have been taken off... er when... ten have been taken off and when fifteen have been taken off. Okay? [Ian:] You couldn't give me a few more equations just [John:] Equations I certainly could I certainly could. Oh now erm you're not at school next week do you [Ian:] No. [John:] want a lesson next week? I'm very happy you do one [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] if you want. You do? Okay erm Tuesday Wednesday right [Ian:] What [John:] I try to keep it the same time. [Ian:] what do you suggest I start to learn? Any thing I'm not sure n sure of cos I've r I've really ran the school out of paper threes. [John:] I I I think you're doing very well actually erm [Ian:] Is there a book I could buy or... [John:] book. I wouldn't recommend this one it's just this is good for me because it's got sort of [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] examples in it. Erm... distance and speed we haven't done distance and speed erm... [Ian:] I've got that Lett's text book. [John:] You have have you [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] got that handy? [Ian:] Yeah I've got it here. [John:] Okay let's have a look at that I'll tell what we'll do I'll I'll suggest a couple of exercises in that for you to work through. He here could just [Ian:] Yeah there it is. [John:] Right... [Ian:] I don't know where that one was that erm sheet hang on stop. No. [John:] Leave tho leave those in cos they're marking your place there I won't disturb those and let's have a a little look at this useful ones for you to do. [Ian:] I got that one you remember the geometry one [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] I did get that one. [John:] You're really brilliant at ge really brilliant at geometry I think it's great. And you're really enjoying maths now aren't you. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah the the graphs it's just a question of doing a few and getting the feel of it and then we'll. So I'll give you some on erm on graphs. You're okay on trig ratios aren't you? Yeah. Here you are drawing graphs. Straight line. Erm... you know what gradient is right. So if you do this formula in equations, rearranging equations erm... put in standard form. exercises. [Ian:] Yeah under question things and they give you the answers in blue. [John:] Yeah I was looking for somewhere he doesn't. [Ian:] No they always give you the [John:] Okay.... Solving problems. If you read through in this... about equations... okay. Simple linear equations you don't need to do the erm the brackets. So if you start about page fifty nine.... Two point three O and check through that... and just make sure that you're very happy with the stuff that they're doing. And each time you come to the exercise each time they says they say Here you are solve read through it with a bit of paper over it. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So you're not looking at the answer. Don't look at the answer. [Ian:] No. [John:] Look at the question and then just close the book and say right I'm going to try and solve this equation. If you get stuck, uncover one line just to see how they're starting. Don't look at the whole answer and then cover it up again and think right okay that's a start and then try and do all I mean you're not going to have the book to help you in the exam. So [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] try and do all of it on your own if you can. Erm if you can't check through the answers there. So you've got lots of stuff on equations all graduated and work through there some with brackets then with fractions. Formulae and equations yeah? And problems on them rearranging them and then through to these to the graphs. Now I'm not sure whether you do non-linear graphs erm don't forget to cover that side up when you're reading it. But if you go through there... to... all the way through to two point three three. And then in two point three three just do the linear... just li linear just means it gives you a straight line. You can skip I mean you can go back to them if you finish this and you want more to do, skip the non-linear or the the not linear they call them right. Skip the not linear. [Ian:] Has that got anything to do with physics? Not cos like in physics we're doing these not or nor gates like. [John:] Erm [Ian:] You know as in [John:] not really. [Ian:] really. [John:] Not really no it's I mean not [Ian:] It's just that they say if you're doing physics sometimes you know this might help you [John:] Oh it does help a lot. [Ian:] you know [John:] It does help a lot. [Ian:] They do say that sometimes. [John:] It it really is true. Erm and then if you go onto drawing graphs from equations okay so skip that bit and just have a look at page sixty eight.... Okay? Linear equations again, solving equations sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy. Have you done inequalities? Less greater then and less that. [Ian:] Yeah but I'm not I'm like that I'll have [John:] Okay. [Ian:] I have a look at it. [John:] Ok oh okay, erm I was going to say stop at two thirty five. But erm so you work through this lot. [Ian:] Yeah. Well I'd rather have more to do than have less to cos [John:] You're really getting through a terrific amount of stuff and you keep asking for more it's great. Really good okay. Erm so read through... inequalities which is two point three five. Right now you may understand those you may think Oh I can't really get the hang of this. Doesn't matter and also two point three six work through that. Pythagoras you won't have any problem on that. [Ian:] No. [John:] And your trig two point three seven. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] They sort of they tie together and you'll be using some equations and next time we'll give you som we'll have a look at graphs again just a quick [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] sort of I think you've got it now actually [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] it's just a question of you practise some. [Ian:] I think there was one question I'll I'll root it out for next time erm and I was really stunned on it I might be okay on it now. [John:] Right have a look at that again then [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] because there's going to be some question on graphs [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] there's always something on graphs. Erm what have I got here oh I know what I've got mustn't pinch our book must I.... What's the date? Is it the first? [Ian:] Erm the first no it's the thirty first today. [John:] Thirty first leave a blank cos I forgot to ask him to sign it. Now if you like you can sign all it says is erm it just it's just telling you what it is and saying that you don't mind them typing up the words form this. [Ian:] Oh. [John:] They take out anything that can identify you or me erm if you know if I said sort of George or gave an address or a phone number they that would be chopped out. The tapes are erased afterwards what they do is somebody types it all up and erm then they build it all up on a computer. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] How people use this and they put it in the dictionary. So if you're happy for them to use the tape okay. You just just sign there and that's cos they can't use the tapes without your permission even though they're destroyed. [whispering] Erm yeah that's it. Right [] I'm in the middle of painting at the moment as well s I thought it'll be slack cos everyone's breaking up and everyone'll be saying forget and everyone's saying oh yes I do want a lesson. And I said in the holiday, Oh yes I do. [LAUGHTER] So I I just hadn't allowed for it and er m my wife was saying I've got some finishing off as well quite a students finishing off and erm my wife said, put an advert in the paper. I said, Oh don't bother I always I always get people ringing up saying so and so's mother or father says or someone says you've been teaching them and can you take me or can you take my son or daughter and it always works like that. So my said, Ooh you know what if it doesn't you you know you'd have none for next term sort of thing I said well I've got quite a few for next term still. She said put an advert in. I'd just phoned it through [LAUGHTER] and people started ringing up saying [] you know somebody's mother tells me and can you come and do our son because he wants to do this and Yes sure. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] That's my luck. Don't forget the tape recorder that would be silly. [Ian:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. [] [John:] How are we doing? That looks just about finished that okay. I'm not going to have time to get two I'll have a look through this before... Erm you've got the Lett's it's a good one this. [Ian:] Well it's my sister's you know [John:] Yeah. [Ian:] she passed maths first time. [John:] Good good. Does she does she help you mush with it? Do you talk to her [Ian:] Yeah she she's I I hardly ever see her but when I do [John:] How old is she? [Ian:] Twenty [John:] Mhm okay. [Ian:] So I I don't really [John:] No when when you other things to talk to. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] other things to talk about rather Yeah she'd get so she starts running when she see's you otherwise wouldn't she. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] Right erm I think that stuff that you're doing there will be fine but particularly at this idea of a gradient think in terms of the slope of a hill which is effectively what it's measuring. You know you say, How steep is that hill? well for every hundred you go along you'd go up fifteen. Oh okay I've got some idea. Erm or they might tell you the angle. Just just think about that and just use that graph there If you wanted to work out the angle there, the tan of the angle would be that over that, but only when the scale is the same on both axes. So you can use this the tangent of the angle use your calculator [Ian:] What's the measurement for gradients? I isn't there one is it just a number. [John:] It's just it's just a number be because it's one length divided by another. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] So it you went along erm. [Ian:] So if you had like metres on one side and centimetres on the other [John:] Right then your gradient [Ian:] Is that is that what it's [John:] Your gradient would be would come out sort of all wrong then. [Ian:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. So if you're saying if say it was a railway where the gradients are very not very steep at all. And they said it goes up erm ten centimetres every kilometre. virtually level. You'd think, Oh this is a big gradient. If you drew it on your graph it would be quite steep and it would look as if you were going up ten centimetres for every centimetre you went along which is almost vertical. You know so make sure the units are the same and the scale is the same so you're using the same number of squares for each one. If you want to just measure the angle and use the tan. Now usually in the exams they work it so you can't do that cos they give you a graph already drawn and they'll have sort of erm two squares is equal to one unit along the bottom but only one square equals one unit [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] sort of going up. So if you do just measure the angle they say, Find the gradient and erm find the the angle. and you can't just measure it. So you'll have to do that. Erm I I I think you're doing really brilliantly. [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] I think you're doing very well. you you can tell yourself now that you you're really [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] getting a feel for it what you're doing. So if you work through those chapters erm [Ian:] Yeah. [John:] and then go back over stuff that you've done earlier that you haven't been able to understand where you've felt, Ooh I don't know what's going on here. erm and now see if you can make sense of it. Look at what you've written and think, Oh I was just fumbling about here I didn't know where I was going. and write it out again the way is should have been. How it should have been there and [tape ends]

[speaker001:] didn't didn't get much of you last time speak very quietly. Do you speak very quietly when you're playing out when it's your turn to be Rush. [John:] Do you say, Excuse me chaps could you just pass the ball over this way please. [Simon:] No I shout but if they [John:] On me 'ead. [Simon:] I just go. [John:] So the way you talk normally when you're outside when you're playing football that's not the same as you need to talk when you're writing is it? Er a lot of people think, Oh I'll just write the way I talk. Well if you do everybody tends to make a bit of a fuss about it. What's this you can't have that don't say that and you say, Well I do say that. So don't write that. So there different different ways of putting things and I E words can you think any words that've got I and E together in them? And we can perhaps use some of those in sentences. [Simon:] Erm... [John:] Okay we'll give up for today.... Any you've come across recently and somebody asked you to spell them and you've thought Oh I haven't got [Simon:] Cupboard. [John:] Cupboard okay that's a good word. Cupboard hasn't got I E in it has it but it's a good word. Erm do you remember how to spell cupboard?... Well it's you don't spell it like cupboard you spell it like a cup board. [Simon:] Cup. [John:] Cup board... cos it used to be just a just a shelf just a board with some hooks on it hang your cups on it. Okay where's that it's in the cu the cups They're on the cup board, hanging on the cup board. And after a while you say cupboard. Like forehead. Some people say, Oh must be fore head. it's forehead cos that's what people say and it used to be fore head and they change all the time that's why need to record the words and see how they're being pronounced. So that if everyone if if people who wrote the dictionaries didn't know people'd still be going round thinking that everyone said fore head or break fast. [LAUGHTER] Things like that. Okay now what have you done on punctuation?... What do you think punctuation means? [speaker001:] Oh sorry. [John:] Oh it's my fault leaving it there. [Simon:] Erm... [John:] Okay how about erm do you know how where to put commas and full stops and? [Simon:] Sometimes. [John:] Full stops then which [Simon:] Full stops [John:] which is the easiest. [Simon:] After like Monday and [John:] Okay. [Simon:] after Monday and names and [John:] Right erm so when you read for reading. Oh well we'll we'll have a look at these I E words and we'll have a look at punctuation some time. How where to put full stops. Remind me before the end of this lesson and we'll have a little look at how to get full stops right cos it's not too hard with those. I E mm right. What have we got here? Could you could you write thief? [Simon:] Thief. [John:] Mm.... [Simon:] T... mm... [John:] Go on. [Simon:] T H [John:] T H right... ooh that's nice writing that's nice that's very and now [Simon:] E I [John:] [whispering] Well lets have a look []... [Simon:] [whispering] E I []... pen isn't it. [John:] Now ooh okay. Erm... now you're putting you're E I again aren't you. Right so it's very awkward erm really you just think, I can't remember is it I E, E I. You write it down and you think, Mm maybe that's right maybe it's the other way. so there's a fairly good rule that works nearly all the time. The first thing to do is is it making an E sound this I E? [Simon:] E yeah. [John:] E yeah okay so we can use the rule which should now work pretty well all the time. So it's I before E except after C. So is it after a C does the I E come after a C? No so it's going to be I E. So try T H I E... That's it and then the? [Simon:] What? [John:] What's what's the last letter? [Simon:] H innit [John:] F. [phonic] [Simon:] thief. Oh F. [John:] Yeah thief. Okay that's it. Now on your own have a go at chief. [Simon:] Chief. [John:] Alright chief. [Simon:] Chief? [John:] Chief. [Simon:] Chief. [John:] Like an Indian chief or [Simon:] C... [John:] That's it. Okay very good. And brief.... [Simon:] Mm.... Oops missed the I [John:] Mm do it again that one with with the with the whole lot in. Just just one line through when you cross out. [Simon:] Brief.... Oh not again. [John:] So do the B R and then stop and think do B R and then think now which am I gonna do I E [Simon:] R scribble there. [John:] So do yeah.... Now [Simon:] I... F [John:] That's it okay So if you can remember that rule the these these words are ones that a lot of adults get wrong a lot of the time. They'll they and they you'll see them going mm not that not that one back to the first I don't know and then they get the dictionary out. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and they have a look and then they say, Oh I'm sure it wasn't that way. [LAUGHTER] So how about grief? Grief.... [Simon:] That's just the same with a G. [John:] Exactly right very good yeah well done. So if that's brief, grief is going to be the same cos it's the same [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] rule. How about erm field. [Simon:] Erm... [John:] As in a football field.... Does it make an E sound?... [Simon:] L [John:] Yeah so it's I it makes an E sound so we use it this I E or E I is it after a C? No so brilliant. So it's a good rule that. There are quite a lot of words that that will work for. Now let's try the other ones where it's after a C okay. Let's try... could you spell ceiling?... It starts with a C I'll give you a clue on that. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And the next thing that happens is an E sound.... That's brilliant. That they that's it exactly. Have you ever spelt it before? [Simon:] No. [John:] See so it's just by learning the pattern it's like say if you were you were playing football every time somebody every time the ball came towards you you had to learn all about the way the ball goes Oh it's you know it's slowing down cos the grass is wet and it's curling and things like that. If you had to learn every time you couldn't spot patterns you'd never you'd never be able to play football cos you'd be you'd always be a learner wouldn't you. You'd always be thinking, Oh what's go what's going to happen to this. but as yo as you learn [Simon:] Hold on. [John:] [LAUGHTER] Watering the garden eh?... Is that your dog or next door's? [Simon:] the dog's [John:] Oh. So I think that was pretty good I think it was brilliant in fact ceiling you've never seen it before worked out how to spell it. So it's a good rule this. Now how about receive? These are ones these are ones that a lot of adults get wrong, receive.... Okay is that a is that a Y that last one? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Er receive V [phonic] [Simon:] V. [phonic] [John:] V [phonic] what sound does a Y make on the end of a word? Right tacky [Simon:] Oh. [John:] or jolly, happy makes a makes the E sound usually. So that's that's that's great you've got the hard bit recei and then it's V that Y should be a V E so just cross the tail off the Y. Receive erm there are there aren't a lot of other words that do have C in well there are but they're quite sort of awkward words like... try deceive. [Simon:] Deceive. [John:] Just finish off receive so that's V E okay receive try deceive. [Simon:] Deceive oh.... [John:] That's it. That is brilliant. [Simon:] I've never heard of that word. [John:] Ah if you're erm conning someone you [Simon:] Calling [John:] con conning someone [Simon:] Oh conning. [John:] You're giving them a... a load of old flannel and [LAUGHTER] trying to trying to trying to persuade them that something's true you're deceiving them. Yeah erm you give you give you give me the money now and I'll give you the elephant later it's just round the corner. [LAUGHTER] You know. [] Oh it's a good car this yeah it's only done two thousand miles. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] One lady owner a vicar's wife you know. Okay erm now... so does what what are the rules about this I E thing?... [Simon:] I before the E except C. [John:] Except when it comes after C except after C. That's brilliant but that's only when it makes an E sound. Now there are some I E words E and an I or an I and an E and it doesn't make an E sound. How about erm things like ooh... foreign can you spell foreign? [Simon:] Foreign? [John:] Or neighbour, do you ever watch neighbours? [Simon:] Neighbour. No. [John:] Nor me [LAUGHTER] can't stand it. [Simon:] The first time I watched it I thought... That's wrong. [John:] Okay that's not right but what's what's right about it? It starts with N ends in S okay. [cough] N [phonic] something. Erm is this a D or a B? [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Okay so that's a B. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm you don't always get it wrong you've been doing quite well but occasionally you just if you're [Simon:] Mm. [John:] if you I think it happens when you're worrying about something else in the word and you're concentrating on something else thinking, Ooh what's he want here is it going to be an E I or an I E or what. You're concentration goes it's like er it's like someone's going to try and head it in to the net and he's trying to work out which corner it's going into and he's [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] so busy working it out he misses the ball in the end. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] [LAUGHTER] Yeah. Concentrating too much on the little details rather than the main thing so B and D... quite important to get those. Erm right... mm... Do you know you know you know D and B don't you? You don't need to practise them at all you know which one's which. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Cos some people have trouble with them and they can't see a difference they can't see any difference. [Simon:] I know. [John:] But er I don't think you are at all dyslexic are you. No one ever mentioned that I don't think so. Okay... other other words with do you think you could look that one up? Neighbour it's erm it's quite an awkward word it comes in occasionally you can look it up if you like. look it in a di have you got a dictionary? [Simon:] I don't think so erm [John:] Erm. [Simon:] probably. [John:] Look in the do you get [Simon:] Yeah I've got [John:] a T V Times? or Radio Times or the paper. [Simon:] We've got we've got a dictionary yeah. [John:] Right if you haven't if you can't find the dictionary you could look in the paper see what time Neighbours is on. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And it'll say you'll see how to spell it. Erm do you read the paper at all? What do you read? [Simon:] The what's on telly what's on the cinemas [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] erm [John:] Anything else you read er football pages anything like that? [Simon:] Yeah a bit about football. [John:] Okay. Erm when you read it you come across strange words you know words that maybe you know you've heard them but you wouldn't think of trying to write them. Erm [Simon:] Well I read [John:] Well if you if you couldn't read it yeah you can get someone to help you but if you can't u usually see you know quite a lot of words. You know a lot more words than you know how to spell don't you. And this is the problem. Erm as you get older once you get to my age you can spell most of the words you know. But at your age you know so many words you couldn't really be expected to spell all of them and you're you're thinking Oh whatever I do I every word I write down is wrong. And it's not. Something like ooh nine out of ten maybe more than that perhaps ninety five out of every hundred words that you write down are okay they're spelt correctly it's just the awkward ones. The only trouble is the teachers keep giving you all the awkward one don't they everybody [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] does because those are the ones you have to learn how to spell. Now they don't come in right today we're going to spell can anyone spell is? Ooh that's a hard one. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right he goes Now who's going to spell cat? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right all these words you know how to spell them. But there's some awkward ones and they've got to concentrate on the awkward ones so that you get this impression I can't spell anything. We had twenty spellings yesterday and I only got five right. Okay but they were f they were twenty awkward ones if they said right we'll have you pick any twenty words you know and see if you can spell them you'd get twenty out of twenty wouldn't you. Okay. [Simon:] The maths now [John:] The maths we'll have a we'll have a look at that erm... tied deceive... Right can you spell eight? [Simon:] Eight? [John:] Eight number eight think about maths. It's one of these I E words but it doesn't make an E sound does it? Good that's it good go on. [Simon:] Oh.... [John:] That is brilliant. Excellent. Now that is a very awkward word I mean it's nothing like that it should be A T E shouldn't it. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] that doesn't look a could you do weight?... That's that's that's eight. [Simon:] Yeah and weight's just the same but [John:] Just the same. Go on. Right now it is just the same is that what you've written though? [Simon:] What. [John:] What did you do. [Simon:] Eight. There? [John:] That's eight yeah [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and what have you got here? [Simon:] Weight. [John:] What does it say? [Simon:] Oh wight. [John:] Right wight. Quite wight. So I I think you get bored with some of this when it's easy you're looking at that and you think, Oh I can do this just put a W in front of tr. yeah and then mm and you forget [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] you're you're not concentrating so you need to concentrate a bit on making sure that you finish off like you know somebody's somebody's passed to you're right in front of the goal all you've got to do is tap it in and you think, Oh anyone could do this which foot should I no problem [Simon:] And then by the time [John:] Cos you just lose lose concentration. [Simon:] Yeah I haven't kicked the ball yet. [John:] Mm you've got to keep on top of it and keep with it. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So how a so write that one out again s with the the way it should be for weight. Yeah that's it on the same line. [Simon:] Weight.... [John:] Hang on that's eight. [Simon:] Yeah ei oh [John:] That's E I right. Now you tried it there and you left the E out now you've left the I out. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Okay third time lucky oh that was sneaky just got it in. Right weight and last one freight freight. [Simon:] Freight? [John:] Have you heard of a freight train? [Simon:] No. [John:] Ah... Fr Okay you can do eight you can do weight so can you do have a guess at freight.... That's it. Erm... can you do height? [Simon:] Height? [John:] Height sounds as if it should be pronounced hate. [Simon:] Height. [John:] it's the same as same as eight. [Simon:] Is it? [John:] Yeah. I I hate my height.... just do eight.... [Simon:] There there's eight. [John:] Eight. And then put an H in front of it and it's height. [Simon:] Oh yeah. [John:] Which is ridiculous cos if you put a H in front of it it should say hate. [Simon:] I know. [John:] So so it's absolute rubbish some of this [Simon:] or [John:] spelling isn't it. [Simon:] or hite heat. [John:] H E [phonic] I [phonic] [Simon:] Hate. [John:] H E I G T [phonic] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Nothing like it absolutely nothing like it. So try and remember that I E one when it makes an E sound I before E except after C now that's going to help you with quite a few words. It won't handle all of them it won't mean you're g always going to get all your spellings right now [Simon:] But [John:] but it'll mean you can get a lot of them. [Simon:] most of the I Es. [John:] Yeah you'll be getting most of those right and you won't have to learn sit up all night saying, Oh he's given me another thirty five I E words to learn tonight. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] It'll work for a lot of them. Erm I did say we'll just have a quick mention punctuation before we look at the maths. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Simon:] What does punctuation mean? [John:] Punc punctuation do you want to try and do you want to just write it down. P P U N. [Simon:] Title title [John:] Oh yes oops sorry you you write it. P U N C [Simon:] P U N C [John:] Punc... [Simon:] P... U... N... C [John:] T punct and then U letter U... and then ation A T I O N. [Simon:] And underline the title. [John:] For next time if you like you can think of some tion words and and write them down. Words ending in tion like station a railway station or see how many you can but punctuation. The real reason you put it in is to make it obvious what we mean. So people don't get mixed up about what exactly we mean and to help when you're reading it. So if you're reading something out. This is about maths so we'll have a look in that for punctuation.... Mm not many here not much so we'll questions.... I mean most of these end in question mark. So the main thing about punctuation is first you know you know the main points. Erm just going to start a sentence what would I do? [Simon:] Capital letter. [John:] Right okay and now I've finished a sentence How do i finish a sentence? That's it now that that's m that's about sort of seventy f seventy five percent of punctuation. Capital letter for the first one full stop at the end that's the main point. If you follow that, people can understand what you're writing. And they can have a good guess. And then sometimes you need to put commas in if they're are long lists. When else would you need capital letters? [Simon:] Writing the date. [John:] Right okay. Days days of the week [Simon:] Writing [John:] writing the month yeah. [Simon:] Writing names of people [John:] writing names of people what about if you're writing names of countries would you? [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Yeah. Okay so the important things capital letters and full stops you already know how to use them. Okay so you're okay on on that, what about commas? [Simon:] No. Don't know nothing about them. [John:] Well if we had a long a long thing to read. I've got some here. Er here we are.... Okay I'll move it round there. How about this one about cricket? Could you read all that could you read that? Go on read it out. [Simon:] [reading] Cricket is a popular sport in Yorkshire. Sometimes members of the Yorkshire team are chosen to play the England and they play against teams from Australia. The West Indies and Pakistan. [] [John:] What about the West Indies and Pakistan? So the way you read it you said [reading] And they play against teams from Australia [] and then you said and then you stopped there but you said [reading] The [Simon:] Mm. [John:] West Indies and Pakistan. [] Now this is where we use commas. So [reading] cricket is a popular sport and so on. The Yorkshire team are pos are chosen to play for England and they play against teams from Australia [] comma [reading] the West Indies [] and there should really be a comma there [reading] and Pakistan. []. There should really be a comma there but we've got a funny twist to the rule we don't put comma before the and don't put a comma before the and. [Simon:] Like if there's a full stop you don't put and next to it. [John:] That's right. You know quite a few rules don't you about punctuation that's good. So a comma we use it in lists of things. Erm next year I'm going to play for Liverpool, Everton, Tranmere Rovers, Chelsea and erm [Simon:] Sheffield Wednesday. [John:] and Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield Unan nited and Manchester United if if they'll let me. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] If they'll let me. [John:] And if I'm [LAUGHTER] and if I'm fit enough. Okay. so I'm going to play for Manchester comma [Simon:] But [John:] Tranmere comma when there's a list of things okay [Simon:] It should be commas [John:] you have commas but don't do a comma before the last so er if I said tonight I'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right where would the commas go? I'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake. [Simon:] Comma next to sausage what else is there? [John:] Eggs. [Simon:] Eggs so comma but all of them just before the last one. [John:] Okay so they're all so... could you write this one down then tonight I'm having fish, chips and peas.... [Simon:] I am having [John:] F erm well what would you like? Sausage, egg and chips. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Oh sausages [John:] Ah [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You should think before you say yes. How do you spell sausages oh dear. Well it's a some it's a German word it's a funny word and it's S A U [Simon:] S [John:] S A U sausages. [Simon:] Sausages. [John:] S A U S so that's saus and then ages A G E S.... Sausages. [Simon:] Sausages. [John:] What were we having sausages? [Simon:] Comma [John:] Yeah sausages comma erm we can have what we like can't we. [Simon:] Oops. [John:] Beans. [Simon:] Sausages [John:] Beans. [Simon:] Sausages, egg and beans. [John:] Okay.... [Simon:] Egg no comma because it's [John:] No comma there because there's the and coming you learn very quickly very good.... And you can spell beans. Do you know another way and what goes at the end... what goes at the end of the sentence? [Simon:] Full stop. [John:] Now you told me how to start a sentence [Simon:] A capital letter. [John:] But what you do a lot I think is you know how to do quite a few things but you're concentrating I mean here you're thinking, Ah all I'm doing now is where w w get the commas in the right place. and while you're thinking about that you forget all about everything else. Now you've got to keep on top of what you already know. [Simon:] Keep [John:] Sort of keep on so that you're building on that all the time so you think right okay I know how to do capital at the start, full stop at the end, keep that don't let that go just cos I'm concentrating on something else. So what am I going to do right I starting a I'm starting off so let's gets the capital. Now I can forget that. Now I can now what am I doing I'm doing commas. Okay now I've finished my commas I've finished the sentence now what do I do now right full stop. So you're sort of thinking at different levels. [Simon:] watch. [John:] Doesn't matter. let it go. So [Simon:] It goes on for a minute. [John:] Ah that's alright. So capital capital T there but you have a look at what you've just done. Tonight, not an easy word to spell... I mean you might think it is but a lot of people spell it incorrectly. You see it written down all over the place incorrectly. N I T E at the end of it. You do you see things like that so tonight okay I helped you with sausages but you got most of it. Beans could you write erm I have been out.... I have been out I have been out today.... Good capital full stop. And what's the difference between this been and that bean? [Simon:] That's been like going out [John:] Right. [Simon:] and [John:] That's the one you eat. Okay well they're two completely different spelling different things and you got them bot right I didn't I didn't help you I didn't even say and think about which sort of bean you're using or anything like that did I. You know I think I think your spelling I think your spelling and your general English is pretty good. But I think the problem is that you you only concentrate on little bits at a time. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And you you forget what you already know or you don't bother with it you don't bother sort of concentrating on that thing, Oh let's get that bit right. Erm you're just looking at a little bit that's new and you're forgetting about the old stuff. Okay so you need to keep it all keep a general picture. Make it a team if you like you know get all the all the other bits of stuff that you know all the other knowledge get that coming in all working together so the whole thing just flows up and down nicely instead of [Simon:] Mm. [John:] jumping about. Okay I think that's very good really I I don't think I think you're writing is very nice as well. What do you think? [Simon:] It's okay. [John:] It's I think it's pretty good. Erm... one problem I think is that you can... you tend to look at letters I think sort of one or two letters together erm instead of trying to think of a whole word. Because I when you do think about the word then you leave some of the letters out. So maybe think of them as syllables little bits say if we're going to say something like Tranmere Rovers. Say Tran- mere Ro- vers. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Split it into each one so you'd write, Tran, I've got that, mere, Ro, vers like that erm and then you're not going to miss bits out. Cos you could easily easily miss bits out. Okay I thank I think... tell me e tell me what where you'd put capitals on this one about the cricket. [Simon:] On the P. [John:] Right tell me where you'd start off with capitals. Good so first one because it's the first in the sentence that's an [Simon:] C [John:] automatic one [Simon:] Cricket. [John:] on that C. Right and what happens next? [reading] Cricket is a popular sport in []? [Simon:] Yorkshire. [John:] Right so capital Y for that. [Simon:] Full stop here. [John:] Good yeah full stop. So Starting a new sentence. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Okay so good a capital letter on there yeah. [Simon:] [reading] times members of Yorkshire [] [John:] Good. [Simon:] Capital letter full stop. [John:] Hold it [Simon:] Capital letter erm [John:] [reading] Sometimes members of the the Yorkshire team []... Yeah you could have it you could have a a capital on that. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] But no full stops yet cos we haven't finished a sentence we haven't [Simon:] Oh. [John:] finished what we're saying about them. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] [reading] Sometimes members of the Yorkshire team [] [Simon:] [reading] are chosen to play for England and they play against [] [John:] Okay. [Simon:] [reading] teams [] [John:] Capital E for England yeah. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] [reading] and they play against [] [Simon:] [reading] teams from Australia, the West Indies and Pakistan. [] [John:] Okay so what's what punctuation along along here? [Simon:] Mm comma. [John:] Okay so let's go for the easy one first and get it out of the way. Before we forget it at the end. [Simon:] Full stop. [John:] Okay. Australia country capital A and as you say comma, the West Indies capital W and I and [Simon:] Pakistan full stop. [John:] Right and a full stop. I think you're pretty good at english and punctuation I think well you tell me what do you think you've got to concentrate on? [Simon:] Mm... Mm.... Don't know. [John:] Yes you do go on tell i what have I just been telling you then that you need to concentrate on that I think you should be concentrating on. [Simon:] Well... just don't think about one thing and forget about all the others. [John:] It's it's if you think about say you're playing football. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Now you've got to be at different levels all the time. You're thinking about if the ball is coming to you... you're watching the ball. It's going to finish up about ten yards in front of me. Okay I'm running a bit faster I'm going to be there. Right well forget about thinking about that for a moment I'll look round where everyone else. He's over there, he's running up through there, [Simon:] Mm. [John:] he's on the left wing, [Simon:] Ah. [John:] two defenders coming up, they're probably going to get to me so I'm going to pass it as soon as I get it. What's going on all around you so then you concentrate on the ball again. So you're concentrating on the little bits you're doing and then you're [Simon:] Mm. [John:] moving back a bit to get the bigger picture what's going on [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] with everything else and then you zoom in again and concentrate on. So you need to do this in lot's of jobs in maths, in english, in any any work that you do. Sometimes you see someone painting a door or something and get that little bit done there and then they step back to make sure they haven't missed something cos they could be it could be so obvious to anyone who's just standing, What's he doing there he's left a big piece in the corner there that [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] he hasn't painted. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] He's going, Ooh look there's a little tiny thin bit there I haven't done Oh [Simon:] No. [John:] yes that's fine. He's only looking at that bit. [Simon:] That and then you leave [John:] That's it so you can do these same with your words. You're concentrating to getting the I E or the E I and you leave half of it off or something. So concentrate and then sort of pull back a bit from it and check the main bits and a good way is going through the sounds of each syllable. So if someone said erm, Czechoslovakia, go Czech-o-slo-vak-i-a. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Like that and you'll that sounds right I mean you think, I don't know how to spell it. [Simon:] Mhm just do that. [John:] but you could do like that. [Simon:] Czech-o -so-vak- i-a. [John:] Czech-o -slo-vak-i-a. And people would know what you meant even if you didn't spell it right. [Simon:] Thank you. [John:] Erm no I'm fine thanks. Now I would like you to tell me about numbers. [Simon:] Numbers? [John:] Mhm. What are they? [Simon:] Numbers [LAUGHTER] erm... [John:] What do we use them for? [Simon:] Maths. [John:] Well it's a bit like that's a bit like saying what do you use words for? English. [Simon:] Oh right. [John:] don't use words just for eng I mean you use words mainly for talking [Simon:] Mm. [John:] don't we. Would you like a drink please? No thank you. Erm do you want to come out and play? No I'd rather do my english. [LAUGHTER] I don't like football any more, I'd rather do maths. Things like that it's for letting that's what words are for well numbers are for telling other people how much you how much do you Would you like a cup of coffee? No I'll just have half a cup please. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. Erm what time are you coming out to play football? Oh [Simon:] Ooh. [John:] about half past three. [Simon:] Or ten P M. [John:] Or in about two hours time. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So all these numbers come into your life all the time it's not just for maths you need [Simon:] go to the shop and you're wondering if you've got the right change. [John:] Exactly or have go enough money. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] How much are those Lion bars? Oh they're thirty four P each. [Simon:] What... rip-off [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Can I get can I get can I get three of them. And will I get three out of a pound? Is a pound enough to get Lion bars? Don't know you'd have to work it out okay. So that's that's why erm the numbers are important it's not for maths. Now this is open here is this were there particular things you wanted to do? [Simon:] Time [John:] D time? [Simon:] Well I know me time we we we done that not so long ago. [John:] Okay. And you're happy with erm twenty four hour clock? [Simon:] No. [John:] No well it's dead easy there's a little trick on the twenty four hour clock [Simon:] Twelve thirteen is one [John:] Okay. [Simon:] fourteen is two fifteen is three [John:] Right okay so you so I asked are you happy with the twenty four hour clock you say no and then you know it. Erm [Simon:] I've seen the paper [John:] An awful lot of adults have awful they have an awful lot of adults [Simon:] like the twenty and all the [John:] Okay twenty what time is twenty thirty? [Simon:] Erm. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] give me a minute. [John:] Don no don't do it in your head just write it down there [Simon:] Oh yeah. [John:] just write twenty thirty.... Okay and we have to put something in between there. put a yeah. [Simon:] Right [John:] Yeah now take twelve away from the twenty right twelve underneath it and take it away.... No one says you can't write it down don't have to do it in all in your head do you. [Simon:] No twelve er an an twelve well twelve away from twenty [John:] Mhm.... Twelve is ten and two isn't it. If you took the ten away from the twenty how many would you have left? [Simon:] Ten. [John:] Ten if you took [Simon:] Eight. [John:] That's it you were there before me right. So take the ten away and the you have ten left over and then take the two away from that so eight. So what time is twenty thirty put the just put the eight under the twelve there. [Simon:] Eight o'clock. [John:] We've still got thirty still got thirty cos we haven't taken any so perhaps put twelve nought nought under that and take it away. [Simon:] Half eight. [John:] Half eight at night. Erm on twenty four hour clock then what time would seven o'clock be? How would you work that out? [Simon:] Twe on the twenty four hour clock what time would seven o'clock be? [John:] Mhm.... [Simon:] Oh I won't bother writing this [John:] So [Simon:] one down. [John:] Why not? Okay what are you going to do then? Tell me what you're going to do? [Simon:] Fifteen is three, sixteen is four [John:] Mm. [Simon:] seventeen is five... eighteen is six... nineteen is seven. [John:] Okay nineteen. [Simon:] So nineteen. [John:] Seven o'clock could be ni nineteen hundred hours. Oh well I think you're alright on those. Erm what about I'm just trying to find something that you're not good at. [Simon:] Divided. [John:] Divi division? Okay.... [Simon:] Share between and all [John:] Mm. That's the that's the most awkward thing to do the one that most people have most problem with. Let's have a quick look at where the numbers came from. Okay. The first numbers we got were just counting numbers. Everyone's happy with those with that you can do three add five? Yeah if I said do three add five would you actually do that would you do three add five or would you do five add three? [Simon:] Five add three. [John:] Good so what would that come to? [Simon:] Five... three... eight. [John:] Okay now so let's say if we had some numbers you you can you could make your own notes about this. If we're doing add we're just starting off with the counting numbers. So we can say start with counting numbers. [Simon:] Right start with cou counting numbers? [John:] Counting numbers those are the numbers you use for counting things with like three or six or most people call them the normal numbers.... Now we're going to see what happens... [Simon:] counting erm... cou [John:] Ah counting C O U N T count... counting numbers. [Simon:] count start start with counting what? [John:] Numbers. [tape ends]

[speaker001:] doing something else when I'm doing my own work. [Simon:] Okay in the easter holidays [John:] Okay now... [Simon:] We have like twenty five a test and then these must be another test for another group. [John:] Okay what do you think of these words? [Simon:] Erm some are [John:] Could you [Simon:] quite easy [John:] Okay so some are quite easy some of them you're not going to have much problem with at all. You [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] already know them or you could have a good guess at them. Erm it may be some will be not so easy need a bit more work and some of them'll be sort of in the middle. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] In between. So which are they easy ones? [Simon:] The easy ones are erm use puppy key desk kept use used. Yeah. [John:] Okay so you could do all of those you don't even have to bother learning them. Erm what about things like ox and oxen? [Simon:] I erm [John:] Bit of an odd word isn't it? [Simon:] Mm. [John:] You don't have you seen an ox? [Simon:] No. [John:] No you don't you see [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] them in films about Africa or something or [Simon:] I [John:] You don't. [Simon:] I've never heard of one. [John:] It's like a big cow. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] An ox is just like a cow. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Just a another name for a cow really. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] So once you know what it means it helps a little bit and can you think of a word that ends the same as that?... [Simon:] Erm no. [John:] What would you keep things in? [Simon:] Box. [John:] Okay. Can you spell box? [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] You can spell box, you can spell ox. Yeah? No problem it's just g it's a bit funny if there's more than one of them if you get two or three you don't say two ox if you had two or three boxes fine but with ox it's one of these silly words you just have to remember it's oxen.... I don't I mean you're not going to write about oxen very often are you? [Simon:] No. [John:] No so just try and try and learn them. [Simon:] one of those [John:] Well like a cow [Simon:] Oh. [John:] ox is a cow oxen two cows two [Simon:] Oh. [John:] oxes if you like only you say oxen. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay? So just learn that to and er [LAUGHTER] keep them happy. [Simon:] Right. [John:] [LAUGHTER] You won't use it very often. Some of these words you're much more likely to use aren't you. [Simon:] Yeah sale. [John:] Can you spell sale?... Is there another way you can spell sale?... [Simon:] Like sail on a boat or [John:] Right and how do you spell that?... [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Erm... [John:] Well have a go at the first letter. [Simon:] S. [John:] Right okay. And then it's not spelt the same way as this when it's on a boat [Simon:] Mm. [John:] is it?... Do you know how to spell tail? How do you spell that? [Simon:] T A... E L. [John:] See there's T A L E [Simon:] Oh. [John:] like telling a tale. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And what would a dog's tail how would that be spelt?... [Simon:] [phonic] T A E L T A E L? [John:] T A I L. [Simon:] Oh I L. [John:] Erm do you know how to spell snail? [Simon:] Mm S N A... E L. [John:] Right okay it's not actually E L it's I L [Simon:] I L [John:] but [Simon:] the same as [John:] You're getting in a lot of them you're you're tending to think that a lot of them end in [Simon:] Mm. [John:] A E L. Now that ail sound that A sound it's usually either it'll be A L E or it'll be A I L. So you've only got a choice of two there. It's not spelling's a bit messy isn't it. It's [Simon:] Mm. [John:] there doesn't seem to be any sense to it really but you can try and make a bit of sense... out of some of it... not all of it but some of it you can make a bit of sense out of it yes.... Whoops. Let's see how many words you can think of that have an ail sound in them.... [Simon:] A ail like sail [John:] Sail okay so we've got sail that's on a boat and this sale like your mum's going to go to the sales and see if [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] they've got any good bargains. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Yeah erm any others? What was the one that we had that the dog would have? [Simon:] Mm tail. [John:] Tail.... It's a bit ridiculous really having the two ways of spelling [Simon:] Mm. [John:] That's a tale for someone who tells tales.... [Simon:] Seal. [John:] Seal that doesn't make an A sound that's making an [Simon:] Oh no. [John:] E sound isn't it [Simon:] Yeah it's an E. [John:] so that's a different sound but that's a good one. We had snail earlier how did you spell that? [Simon:] S N A... [John:] I L [Simon:] I L yes [John:] okay. [Simon:] I thought it was. [John:] I don't think there are any that are a that are A E L. We've got the E A L ones like seal which you said [Simon:] Mm. [John:] squeal plea. Erm so that's snail now what o what else could we have what letters could we start with? Erm... fail. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay have a guess at that I'm going to put under this column so have guess [Simon:] How to spell it? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] A F A [John:] Right F A... [Simon:] E or I L. [John:] I that's it I L fail. Okay erm do you know a nursery rhyme about Jack and Jill? [Simon:] No. [John:] No went up the hill [Simon:] Where Jack and Jill fell off the hill to [John:] To fetch a [Simon:] pail of water. [John:] How do you spell pail? [Simon:] P A I L. [John:] That's it P A I L when it means a bucket. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] They went to get a bucket of water or if I said, Ooh you're not looking [Simon:] Too pale. [John:] You're looking yeah how would you spell that? I'm going to put it under [Simon:] P [John:] this column.... [Simon:] A [John:] Yeah.... [Simon:] L E. [John:] That's it brilliant. So you're spotting that pattern. So there is some pattern in this spelling it's awkward it's not as trouble is English is mixed up with bits of all sort of other languages over hundreds of thousands of years. And they've all taken words from different languages and they all spell them different ways. But some of them have got patterns to them and you work them out. Pale erm... what else can you think of?... [Simon:] [cough] [John:] How about what's the American word for post they don't say oh we'll put it in the post they say we'll put it in the?... [Simon:] Mail. [John:] In the mail. And that's... M A I L.... Are you male or female? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] male. [John:] Male how do you spell that one? Goes in this [Simon:] Oh [John:] column. [Simon:] M A... L E. [John:] That's it M A L E so it's perhaps not a bad idea that we spell it differently cos you can tell which one you're talking about then. Whether you're talking about the mail the Royal Mail the post or whether you're [Simon:] Mm. [John:] talking about somebody being a man or a boy or something okay. Any other that have got ail in them? How about Ale?... Hello. [speaker001:] Hiya, sorry about that, just feeding [John:] Oh that's alright [Simon:] the baby. [John:] Yeah I'm [Simon:] did you get your books out to show you what what he's been using. [John:] Y yes we're just we're just having a look at the the spellings at the moment trying to make some sense of them. [speaker001:] Oh right Oh is that your homework for the holidays right. [John:] But we're not all the homework we're just trying to find some pattern in the spelling. [speaker001:] Okay then. [John:] And see how we get on that. I'm sorry I was late getting but I got held up by another lesson. [speaker001:] Oh right. [John:] Very hectic at the moment it's should've normally been dropping off quite a lot this time but [speaker001:] Oh right. [John:] everybody wants extra lessons for some [LAUGHTER] reason []. [speaker001:] Oh right I I was just thinking of sort of trying to you know cos he's in his second year now for the [John:] Mhm. [speaker001:] next two years trying to sort of get him to bring himself up a bit you know [John:] Mm. [speaker001:] possibly for going into another school. They automatically go into S F X but apparently there's two different streams there [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] and I mean I'd love the Bluecoat but I mean you've got to be pretty clever for that. But you never you never know. [John:] Well he'll have to work very he'll have to do... a lot of work [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] erm if you want to get into the Bluecoat. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] Erm... it's up to you how much whether [speaker001:] But there's a few good schools isn't there. [John:] you can get interested in it. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] Mm there are there are quite a few good schools actually around. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] Erm [speaker001:] Saint Edward's is good or was wasn't it. [John:] Well I'm I'm a bit biased cos I went there so [LAUGHTER] [speaker001:] Oh did you? [LAUGHTER] [John:] But it is t it is erm very good they've got a very long waiting list I was helping helping someone with an entrance exam for there and it's very very stiff competition [speaker001:] Is it yeah. [John:] Their exam is more or less G C S E for eleven year olds you know [speaker001:] Really? [John:] they have to be very good just to get in yeah. [speaker001:] So oh well we'll have to wait and see. Do you recognize any of those books are they the sort of normal [John:] Yes there all sort of fairly standard that they're using [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] but it's erm not so much what's in the books as sort of how Simon looks at them. And because if you're just looking at every word separately everything lo you've got to learn so many things haven't you if you can pot the patterns and then you can start having a a guess at what it might be and getting it right most of the time and then you gradually learn them as you go along. You can't you can't be expected to learn everything all at once can you? [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] You've got to people tend to forget that erm things you find easy... before you knew how to do them you found them quite hard [speaker001:] Yeah of course. [John:] and you were probably quite confused and didn't [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] know what was going on until you got it sorted out. [speaker001:] Right. [John:] And got yourself a system and started building on it. [speaker001:] This is it yeah. [John:] until it just seems as if it's an impossible task [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] there's just too much to learn. So you've [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] got to break it down into little steps and do a bit at a time [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] and get a a gradual improvement. [speaker001:] And another I noticed erm Simon's been bringing a few of his friends home from school and erm I mean he's in a class of thirty eight [John:] Right. [speaker001:] I mean which is the norm now more or less isn't it but he's I think the third youngest in his class too most of his friends that he brings home are all nine already. [John:] Right [speaker001:] He's actually not nine till August so he's one of the young ones in the class [John:] Mhm. [speaker001:] I mean that can have that can sort of [John:] Yeah so... [speaker001:] You know contribute isn't it yeah. [John:] Yeah it's more difficult to keep up with others if they if they're older and they've been learning this stuff for a lot longer [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] But erm I think he he'll do it alright he'll be able to sort this out. [speaker001:] Shall I make you a drink would you like a tea or coffee? [John:] Erm er black coffee please [speaker001:] Black coffee. [John:] no no milk no sugar. That'd be wonderful. [speaker001:] Right. Do you want some er juice Simon? [Simon:] Er n no thank you. [John:] No juice do you know how to spell juice? [Simon:] Mm... J... double O [John:] Sounds as if it should be double O it's it's J U I C E [Simon:] Oh. [John:] actually. One way you can... is that a juice bottle over there? [Simon:] Well yeah [LAUGHTER] but I mean I've like you know ones and two and that into it. [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] And I add them to me colle collection of ones and twos. [John:] Okay but you can learn quite a bit you could check... any of the food or the drinks that you've got in the house you could at those to see how you spell them can't you. So you could look on the juice bottle and juice there you think, Oh that's how you spell it. Do watch out cos sometimes they put silly spellings on which doesn't help. [LAUGHTER] []. Okay what else can you think of any more on that erm [Simon:] Erm no [John:] well we could do female couldn't we. [Simon:] Yeah.... [John:] Have a go at that. [Simon:] Female? Oh that's just the same with on. [John:] F E and it's just the same. [Simon:] Yeah [John:] M that's it just F E on the front male. So that's female quite a quite a good word to be able to spell isn't it. Especially at your age. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm how about erm when it's... great big little lumps of ice falling down what do you call that ends in ail? [Simon:] Erm... erm erm [John:] Have you heard of hail stones. [Simon:] Oh yeah erm when it hurts your legs. [John:] When it's hail. Right hail how do you spell hail? [Simon:] H A [John:] Right. [Simon:] I L. [John:] That's it hail. Okay so there's quite quite a few of these that you're getting to know. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Mm. That's hail. [speaker001:] [whispering] [] [John:] That's lovely okay. Now any any others that you can think of? [Simon:] Pail yeah we've done that one. [John:] Pail good we've got that. Thanks very much. [speaker001:] there you go son... [John:] Er where do you go if you go to court and they find you guilty?... and they lock you up. [Simon:] Oh jail. [John:] How do you spell that? [Simon:] Erm J [John:] Okay. [Simon:] A... I L. [John:] That's it. So quite a lot of these you know don't you.... Erm... what do trains run on?... [Simon:] Railway lines. [John:] Railway lines okay how do you spell rail? [speaker001:] I'll leave you two with them if you need me [John:] Right okay. [speaker001:] I'm just in the next room. [John:] Right. [Simon:] R... R A I L. [John:] That's it. R A I L. So there's quite a few of these that you know as long as you can forget about this thing of wanting to put A E L. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I mean it sounds like maybe it should be that way but we don't spell it like we have the I A L or... A L E. Male... and sale and sail. I think that's enough of those. Now how many have we got there? Quite a lot. Do you think you could learn all of those?... [Simon:] Probably. [John:] Probably... no I think definitely. I think let's say you could learn... Which ones couldn't you learn then do you think? [Simon:] Mm [John:] I think you could learn all of those couldn't you it's just that there's quite a lot of words to learn so they give you some funny ones like ox because it's got a funny plural and there's two or three of them you say oxen you don't say oxes. So apart from that you don't need to know about ox do you. You're not going to be walking down that road and say look there's an ox or [Simon:] No. [John:] No. But some of these they're a bit more important. Er now here's another A sound. Playing stayed. Erm how do you spell play? [Simon:] Play? [John:] Mm. [Simon:] P L... A Y. [John:] Okay how about say? [Simon:] S... A... Y. [John:] And stay. [Simon:] S T A Y. [John:] Well I think your spelling's pretty good actually isn't it. What's this what have we got here oh a cat okay. Erm and what about what do you do in church? [Simon:] Sit and talk. [John:] Do you [Simon:] Poems and [John:] That ends in ay?... [Simon:] Pray. [John:] Pray how do you spell pray? [Simon:] P R... A... Y. [John:] Okay and how about day? [Simon:] Oh D A Y. [John:] Right so you know a lot of these so there's another way of making an A sound isn't it there's this A I... sail and mail and snail and things like that. And this A L E like female. How would you spell erm another another word for beer that ends in A e has an A sound in it. Very short word. [Simon:] Erm... [John:] Can you spell ale?... [Simon:] Mm. [John:] How do you spell that? [Simon:] A I L. [John:] I'll put it in this side.... [Simon:] A... A [John:] See it's going in this column [Simon:] I L [John:] Going in this column. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] with sale S A L E so have a guess.... [Simon:] A I L. [John:] Try A L E okay [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Okay you won't need to know that for a long time yet anyway will you. Okay erm so going back to these we've got day s say stay play pray. Erm... any others?... What about erm thing that they make pots out of. For modelling ends in ay. [Simon:] Erm... [John:] Starts with c. [Simon:] C erm... clay. [John:] Clay do you know how to spell that? [Simon:] K L oh C L [John:] Good good C L [Simon:] A... Y. [John:] Okay great. And how about that cat is that your cat?... [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah it's not a stray cat is it. How do you spell stray? [Simon:] S T... A [John:] Str str. [Simon:] Oh R [John:] S T R [Simon:] A... Y. [John:] That's it stray.... Now how about if the cat if your cat had strayed how would you spell that? [Simon:] S T R... A... D E. [John:] That'd be a good way of spelling it that would be a sensible way S T R A D E but they don't spell it that way unfortunately. All they do is they just have stray... and then they put... ed E D on the end [Simon:] Mm. [John:] strayed. Erm do you know how to spell played? [Simon:] It's on there. [John:] I know right okay do you know how to spell played? [Simon:] It's got E D on the end of play. [John:] That's it. P L A Y and put E D on the end. Erm how about stayed if so if your friend stayed overnight. [Simon:] Put E D on the end of stay. [John:] So that's [Simon:] S T... A... Y... E D. [John:] Okay stayed. And how about if they prayed? [Simon:] Put E D on the end of pray. [John:] Okay so what's that's going to be? [Simon:] P R [John:] Right. [Simon:] A Y E D. [John:] Right okay. Couldn't really say someone had clayed. How about if someone... said something? [Simon:] Oh sayed [John:] Sayed it should be sayed really but we don't say sayed. What do we say? [Simon:] Said. [John:] Said. [Simon:] Erm S A [John:] Right. [Simon:] Y [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's S A I [Simon:] Oh. [John:] D which is ridiculous really I mean if you pronounce it said it should be something like S E D [Simon:] Mhm [John:] shouldn't it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Or if you're going to do it the same as we've done these it should be S A Y E D so said is a funny one. One that you'll just have to learn. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Okay [Simon:] So [John:] but the others easy you worked out the pattern just put E D on the end. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So for most of them strayed prayed stayed played you can just put E D. This one say said you just have to learn that one cos it's a bit awkward.... That's a lot of words.... Will you have any trouble with any of those learning any of those? [Simon:] Yeah erm. [John:] What about these what was the hardest w thing about clay. [Simon:] Oh it sounds as if it's got like a K on it [John:] It sounds as if it should have a K usually most words if you're not sure and they start with a c sound put a C. [Simon:] It's normally a C yeah. [John:] There aren't many that start with a K. There are some can you think of one. That your mum would use for heating the water up [Simon:] Coffee. [John:] to make heating the water up to make a coffee what would she boil that water in?... [Simon:] Kettle. [John:] A kettle okay. [Simon:] That's a C. [John:] That's a and that's one with a K. Kettle [Simon:] Is it? [John:] kettle is [Simon:] Is [John:] a K. [Simon:] Is it? Oh. [John:] Yeah. Erm... If they've got a... letter E in the s for the s for the next letter then usually they'll have a K.... [Simon:] Key key [John:] Key yeah that's a good one key.... Right. [Simon:] There's a name Keith. [John:] Keith and one that was in here [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm are you going to keep that? Yes I [Simon:] Am. [John:] kept it I kept it.... So they've got a K in [Simon:] Mm. [John:] keep and kept. Erm but [Simon:] In in school when I'm copying off the board words with like K in the front but... like... they start with a C but I usually put a K and then the teachers go over them and say like this is a C sort of you know careless and all that. I just keep on forgetting that. [John:] Yeah it's not really careless is it it's a question of do you know it or don't I mean [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] you're not going to put the wrong one down if you know the right one are you? [Simon:] No. [John:] So it's learning the right one. and then finding someway what they've said on there is try to make some sentences that use it so that you can remember what it looks like. Erm perhaps you can think of daft things like think of someone kicking the kettle. Do you know how to spell kick? [Simon:] Kick er K I C K. [John:] Right kick. And think of someone kicking the kettle. [Simon:] If you a football easier with that kick. [John:] Right. And if you think of that and of the kettle that'll rem that'll remind you that it's a K for kettle same as a K for kick. Erm this is a daft one. What what's that on the carpet there? [Simon:] Cat kicking the cat. [John:] And how do you spell that? [Simon:] Erm C A T. [John:] Right now if the cat has kittens how do you spell that?... [Simon:] C I double T E N S. [John:] Very good the only the only there's only one letter wrong in that have a guess which one it was. [Simon:] Double T erm [John:] It was the it's a K. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] And it's ridiculous C for cat so you'd think it's going to be C for kitten wouldn't you. No it's K for kitten.... Now how can you think of remembering that one?... Maybe the kittens might sit in the kettle or something. [Simon:] Mm kid. [John:] But the cat wouldn't [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Whichever wa it doesn't matter if it's really daft if you can think of some way yourself to remember it to remember that kitten has got a K and cat has got a starts with a C. Most of them most of them start with a C. If you're not sure if you can't remember try C because it's more likely to be right so you're going to get more marks Oh he's got this right and they won't be putting careless on it they'll say Oh he knows what he's doing here. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm... so if you just remember try and remember the ones that have got a K. It's no good trying to remember every word that starts with a C cos there are lots of them. Just remember the ones that start with a K. And if it's not one of the ones you've remembered you think well it's probably a C. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Try it with a C it's an easier way of doing it isn't it. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm... you like football. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Er how would you spell keeper. [Simon:] Keeper C E [John:] How do you spell keep and how do you spell kept? [Simon:] Kept is K E P T that's on there. [John:] Good good that's on there and keep? [Simon:] K... double E P. [John:] K double E P is keep so have a go at keeper. [Simon:] K double E... P erm E R. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] They write E A R at the end don't they some words. [John:] Some of them but not very many. They usually make a sort of ear sound if they've got I mean [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] if you have E A R... E A R that's ear so how would you spell hear? [Simon:] H [John:] as say in I [Simon:] H at the front of ear [John:] That's it I hear with my ear. Hear when you hear with your ear it's spelt like that. And when it's what's the what's this over here.... That way how do you spell... I say is it over here and you say no it's over there. How would you spell there. [Simon:] There T H... E R E. [John:] Right so here and there [Simon:] You just put a T at the front. [John:] Just a T at the front they're almost the same. So that's [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] one way of remembering those two. How it's here and there and the other the other sort of hear you hear with your ear and it's got an ear inside it. So if you can think of things like this top remember it helps. If you're just trying to remember them all and you've got all these words and letters floating round in your head it's quite awkward isn't it trying to sort them out which is which cos there are you know millions of words. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And you'll just think Oh I'll give up. So you've got to get a system where you can something that'll help you so you can make sense of it and and learn. You're not going to learn all the words in the dictionary overnight are you? [Simon:] No. [John:] No you can all you can do is just learn a few each day or learn some patterns so that you can get quite a few words in one go and sort of learn some tricks like guessing well we'll we'll try with a C. If it starts with a C sound we'll try a C if it's not one of those that I've remembered starting with a K then it's probably a C. Erm how do you spell coat? [Simon:] K O A [John:] Are you sure it's a [Simon:] Oh C. [John:] C so go for a C first unless you're sure [Simon:] Yeah if you're not sure you should go for the C then yeah [John:] Because most of them start with a C. So how do you spell coat? [Simon:] C O A T. [John:] That's it C O A T bit like cat with a with an O in it coat. And can you think of any others that start with K? There aren't many.... [Simon:] Kit like a football kit. [John:] Kit that's a good one. Kit and kitten so that's maybe one way of remembering kitten. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Right that you know how to spell you know how to spell kit like a football kit or your gym kit. So... kitten just put ten on the end of kit. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay that was a good one kit. Erm I can't I don't think there are many more. So each time you come across one have you got a notebook to write things in. [Simon:] upstairs. [John:] Yeah if... keep keep it sort o erm alphabetically okay so you've got the As then the Bs the the Cs depending on which letter the word starts with. And in your Ks whenever you come across a word that starts with a K make sure you put it in your book and have a look at those occasionally so that you're pretty sure you know all these K words and then if it isn't you say well okay got to be a C. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm what other words can you think of that start with a c sound?... [Simon:] Oh cup. [John:] Cup okay and so have a guess at that one. Do you know how to spell it or do you need to guess. [Simon:] C U P. [John:] Mhm and what sort of a c is it? [Simon:] Oh. [John:] C or a K. [Simon:] K... is it? [John:] What did we decide? [Simon:] Oh C. [John:] Right always have a always g if you're not sure go for the C first so there's cup... okay. Erm and what would you wear on your head for going to school sounds a bit like cup? [Simon:] Cap. [John:] How would you spell that? [Simon:] Erm... C [John:] Good. [Simon:] A P. [John:] Good was that a guess? [Simon:] didn't know whether to use [John:] Yeah so you went for the C and you got it right it's a good one [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] to go for go for the C each time cos there aren't many that start with a K. And if you can just when you come across the odd ones that do start with K just learn those and then instead of learning about a hundred thousand or something [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] that start with a C you learn maybe about ten or twenty that start with a K and you say well if it's not one of these I don't know I'm gonna s try it with a C. And nearly all the time you'll get it right. Occasionally you'll come across some new odd ones and the teacher'll say Oh actually this is a K should be a K and you think Right [Simon:] Mm. [John:] I'll put that in my little notebook. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And so that you keep on top of it so you know that you've got all the ones that start with K. Okay. Erm any other c sounds?... [Simon:] Computer. [John:] Good. [Simon:] That's a C one. [John:] That's a C you know that one okay how do you spell it? [Simon:] Oh erm C O M [John:] Com yeah. [Simon:] P P U T E R. [John:] Brilliant. That's quite a long one computer. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay.... [Simon:] Curtains. [John:] Curtains that's a hard one let's have a go. [Simon:] Erm [John:] Right what are you gonna do you know whether it's a K or a C? [Simon:] No C [John:] So what you gonna guess. Guess the C good good guess C [Simon:] I [John:] It's C [Simon:] Mm. [John:] U R... [Simon:] T [John:] T [Simon:] O [John:] and then it's A I N S which is ridiculous, curtains. [Simon:] Oh oh curtain [John:] Curtain. [Simon:] curtains. [John:] You don't say curtain. [Simon:] I know. [John:] you say curtain [LAUGHTER] but it's spelt curtain which is ridiculous really. [Simon:] Curtain. [John:] Do you know how to spell mountain?... [Simon:] M O U T [John:] Moun. [Simon:] Oh N [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] T... A I N. [John:] Brilliant. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Yes. So curtains and mountains should really be saying curtains and mountains. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] mountains. [John:] Mountains I'm going to the mountains. Oh take the curtains with you when you go. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Okay so sometimes it helps if when you see a word you pronounce it to yourself. Don't pronounce it the way they normally do but just say Oh mountain they went to the mountain. [Simon:] Or write or write it on the table and the table [John:] Or write it [Simon:] and scrub it off again with you've finished school. [John:] Write it on write it on a bit of paper? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Write it in your notebook well keep a piece of paper with you. [Simon:] Write it on the table [John:] and then you can That was very good mountain that's a good one to know how to spell curtains the same. Erm [Simon:] More K. [John:] Or C more C more likely to be a C. [Simon:] Mm mm. [John:] Erm at school they usually have one teacher for each [Simon:] Class. [John:] How do you spell that? [Simon:] C [John:] Good go on. [Simon:] C A L... [John:] Cl cl cl [Simon:] Class [John:] C [Simon:] L [John:] Good. [Simon:] A double S. [John:] Good class. How do you think you'd spell classic? [Simon:] I C on the end. [John:] That's it. And how do you think you'd spell classical like do you like classical music?... Don't worry about it cos these are getting quite awkward words [Simon:] A L on the end. [John:] C L A S classic and then A L on the end yes brilliant. Class classic classicism [Simon:] always adding two words [John:] Just making it [Simon:] two [John:] That's it making it a bit [Simon:] letters. [John:] longer each time and making another word out of it. [Simon:] Like [John:] Yeah just like. So if you learn the words this way thinking well do I know a word that's a bit like it and could I add a bit onto the end that's another way another good way of learning cos you don't have to learn class and classical and classic you just sort of learn one of them. You can you can work it out. Let's have a look at the ones that they've given you. Which ones are you going to have trouble with. Well there's kept we've go keep and we'll put kept on there as well as [Simon:] Mm. [John:] as one of these K words. [Simon:] Put that in me little note pad and all. [John:] Yes have we got any other K on there? No. Any words that start [Simon:] Key. [John:] with C. Key good so we'll put that right up at the top. the key to learning it all key. How do you think you'd spell keyhole? Put a key in the keyhole. [Simon:] So K E Y key and H H O L E [John:] That's it. Okay so another another K word key well you wo could have guessed that if key has got a K then keyhole pretty certainly have a [Simon:] Mm. [John:] K won't it.... What have we got here. Oh would and could you're going to use those quite a bit in writing [Simon:] Mm. [John:] aren't you. Would could and should they're going to come in quite a bit. [Simon:] Cross you might like Yesterday I crossed the road to go [John:] Right so cross [Simon:] to the field. [John:] Yes cross is a 'd be a good one to learn there. Erm let's see which one of these you think you you're pretty sure about. Erm okay I'll just ask you and you see which ones you do. How about pound? [Simon:] Pound. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Pound P O U N D. [John:] Good. Kept you know that. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Use? [Simon:] Use... U S E. [John:] Yeah. Sound? [Simon:] S O U N D. [John:] Bound.... [Simon:] Same only a B in front. [John:] Yeah same only a B in the front. So you know quite a few of these. You know kept you know key do you know desk?... [Simon:] Desk? [John:] Desk. [Simon:] D E... [John:] Go on. [Simon:] S... C. [John:] Now this when when it comes at the end of a word [Simon:] Oh yeah. [John:] and makes a c sound then it's usually a K. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] So if it starts the word and you're not sure go for a C. [Simon:] C and the end [John:] But if it's end it's nearly always nearly always a C and a K. How do you spell back? [Simon:] Back? [John:] He was a full back. How would you spell back? [Simon:] Mm. Oh quarterback [John:] Quarterback. [Simon:] position in a [John:] Yeah half back. [Simon:] B A C K or [John:] That that's it B A C K and that's the first one to guess really C K that's the most likely one. Erm desk is a bit of a funny one because it's just got the K. If it's got another consonant do you know what a consonant is? [Simon:] No. [John:] Ah do you know what a vowel is? [Simon:] A vowel... No I've heard it a few times [John:] No yeah [Simon:] but [John:] A E I O U and sometimes people count Y but A E I O and U. It's hard to make a word without them. You can say pat pit pot put if you put a a vowel in. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Well the other letters that are not vowels all the rest of them are called consonants. Erm and if you've got see if you've got a vowel and then a c sound so if we said Let's have a look at some vowels and then a c sound. So we've done back. Which is B A C K [Simon:] draw a line of vowels and see if I mate a make a word or something. [John:] Right that's what we'll do okay. Erm what else could you put in front of ack? There's another vowel A. [Simon:] Ack. [John:] To make a word. [Simon:] Act. [John:] Erm put something in front of that so this ends it. You had back.... [Simon:] Erm... [John:] If you were going on holiday before you went you'd probably have to. [LAUGHTER] Very good. You'd have to put things in your suitcase [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] you'd have to what would you say I'll have to... I'll have to something my suitcase? [Simon:] Mm. Lock erm shut. [John:] Pack. [Simon:] Pack it yeah. [John:] But lock was a good one. Okay pack we'll put lock down then. down here.... Lock ends in c [Simon:] Mm. [John:] c sound and it's got a vowel it's got this A I O or U right in front of it so we go best guess is C K. It's one nearly always right is that. So lock erm how would you spell sock? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] smelly er smelly [John:] How would you smell sock then? [Simon:] S H O... S H O [John:] Good. [Simon:] K. [John:] Don't forget if it's at the end... it's the end of the word the best guess is usually [Simon:] a K... oh a C K. [John:] C K right. [Simon:] C K [John:] Right so what you said I said how do you spell sock S O C K but what you said was S H O C K. What does that spell? shock right. So that's another word you've got there lock... sock shock [Simon:] Shock. [John:] Oh that gave me a shock Erm [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] The ghost. [John:] And how would you sp show would you spell [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Under the table. [John:] How would you spell mock? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Mm. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's the witch. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] for Halloween. [John:] How would you spell mock? [Simon:] Mock? [John:] Have a guess what's it going to start with? [Simon:] M [John:] M, okay. [Simon:] O [John:] O [Simon:] C K. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] C K is a almost almost certainty for the ending it if it's at the end of the word and it makes a c sound go for C K if it's got a vowel just in front of it. Erm mock okay.... Have a go at frock. [Simon:] Erm o F R O C K. [John:] Brilliant. It's easy this isn't it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Once you've got a sy once you've got a method you can you can get it right nearly every time. if you haven't if you're just trying to remember every word there is in the dictionary you'd be there all your life and you'd still never remember them all. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Because you'd you couldn't hold that much in your head so you have to try and break them down into little patterns of Oh it's one of that lot or it's one of this lot. [Simon:] probably working them out and all. [John:] Ah okay well we'll car we'll do a little bit more we'll find out some more of these words ending in K and when we've finished off those erm we'll have a little look at some maths. [Simon:] Okay. [John:] Okay. So... how would you spell sack? [Simon:] S... A C K. [John:] That's it.... If it's at the end it's almost certainly going to end in C K. Erm how about track? [Simon:] T R A C K. [John:] That's it. So just with that trick there are a lot of words now that you'll be getting right yeah. [Simon:] I'm going to school dead brainy and everyone's going [John:] [LAUGHTER] Good good. Track erm... how how would you spell lick? [Simon:] Lick L I... C K. [John:] Good did you know that or were you just guessing? [Simon:] In a way I knew it in a way I had to [John:] Yeah C K C K is definitely a [Simon:] Mm. [John:] favourite that's the one to go for. [Simon:] So if I'm not sure I should always go for... C K. [John:] If it's at the end. If you're not sure at the end of the word go for C K. And even you'll probably get one or two of them wrong occasionally but most of them'll be right and when you get one or two of them wrong the teacher'll say Oh not C K like desk for example not C K on the end of desk because it's got this letter S in it as well. Erm... you've got lock and we could put lack in here [Simon:] Lack? [John:] as well. How would you spell that? [Simon:] L A... C K. [John:] That's it you've got track erm... how would you spell luck someone had a lot of good luck? [Simon:] Luck? [John:] Luck. [Simon:] L U C K. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Did you know. How would you spell lucky? [Simon:] Lucky... L U... C K [John:] Lucky [Simon:] E Y. [John:] Just just Y. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Just put a Y on it lucky. [Simon:] Okay. [John:] Mm. And I think you're getting th the idea of this putting C K on the end of a word haven't you. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Mm. Erm... How would you spell truck? [Simon:] Truck? T R... U C K. [John:] That's it. [tape ends] [Simon:] Erm if I get something wrong and the the teacher's going [moan] [John:] Have the the teachers telling you a way of learning something like I've been saying put C K if it's on the end of the word. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm why do you think well why do you think I was telling you that?... [Simon:] So I could get more used to them so [John:] Yeah do you think I was doing to make it harder for you? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] No. [] [John:] Right well what was I doing it for? [Simon:] Making it easier for me. [John:] So you could see the pattern yourself and make it easier and a lot of the time at school when the teacher's telling you, Why don't you do it this way? they're not trying to make it harder for you. You might think, Ooh it's hard that way. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] They know from cos they've had years of experience [Simon:] Mm. [John:] teaching people how to learn that most people will find it easier if they [Simon:] We've got [John:] learn it that way. [Simon:] we've got the oldest teacher in school. [John:] Oh. [Simon:] Fifty erm birthday [John:] Is it a he or a she? [Simon:] She. All she's. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] Apart from the headmaster. [John:] Do you get on all right with the teachers? [Simon:] Sometimes, sometimes I get a bit told off. [John:] What do you get what do you get told off for? [Simon:] really stupid things erm [John:] Why do you do stupid things? [Simon:] Don't know well sometimes I playing like and this girl, Oh that's stupid doing all this and, you know and she just like [John:] Mm okay. Do you play sometimes cos you can't be bothered doing the work cos you can't see any sense in it? [Simon:] No I always sit down and do me work but sometimes people just distract me all the time. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] Dead distracted easily. [John:] Okay so if you can learn to concentrate on looking for the patterns and looking for, Oh well what sort of word is this, is it going to end in a K end in c sound so it'll be C K. Does is start with a c sound. So what would be what would you try first if it started with a c sound? [Simon:] C probably a C. [John:] Right good. And if it ended with a c sound what would you want [Simon:] Probably C K. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] Or K. [John:] C C K most of the time there aren't many that end in just a K. Desk is one of them erm have you got any disks on your computer? [Simon:] Yeah I've got a Amiga so I've got [John:] Okay and how do you spell disk? [Simon:] Disk D I S K. [John:] That's it like a desk that's really that that was the American way of spelling it but we spell it that way now. That's another problem with spelling is the Americans spell things a bit differently. [Simon:] In America in American world you're doing all this and... they'll be going, Oh no you don't [John:] That's not right. Yeah they're spellings are a little bit easier than ours cos they change some of them some of the awkward ones. [Simon:] So theirs is like the way I think. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] And other people other people think spelling should be changed but it's not going to be and they're still going to mark it one the exam if you don't get it right. So we'll have a look have a look at your [Simon:] I'll get [John:] Er let's let's have a look. Right and you're joining up you writing nicely there. [Simon:] Mm.... Reading book, pattern book,... [John:] What's your writing like? [Simon:] Not too bad. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Me double isn't all that good. [John:] No the only way to get your writing better is to practise it. look at this she's given you lots of C C K to do together because [Simon:] Mm. [John:] very often [Simon:] You've got to do C K at the of the word. [John:] at the end of the world it's going to be C K at the end. So she's given you those to practise not just a C and then a K but show both as one making sort of one sound like in back and lock [Simon:] And me me [John:] and flock [Simon:] Me best word when [John:] So you're good at hey that's good because some people can't go their F goes all over the place. Yeah that's good good keep it up. I would think your Ks are probably pretty good if you can do a good letter F. [Simon:] Yeah [John:] Yeah good that looks good that's very good. Okay which are the hardest letter for you to do? [Simon:] Hardest that would be [John:] In the joined up writing. [Simon:] erm oh... erm... like Is all the I-s [John:] Ah. [Simon:] look like Es [John:] Ah. Okay. [Simon:] You know when you do the I-s like that. [John:] Right so when you do when you do the letter I try to keep it we'll do a letter I here. Try to come down nice and straight... my K isn't very good I bet you could do a better one than that. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay like erm... [Simon:] K is [LAUGHTER] [John:] but if you're doing... the letter E... it goes up there and comes down okay? And the other thing about the I-s is if you make sure you put a dot on them on the top then if it looks a bit like if you people can't tell that you've done an E or an I, if you'd a dot on top it's got to be an I. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay so that's that's that's a thing that would help. Okay some maths hey? Okay. Let's have a quick look in your folder see what you've got. Tricky ones.... Do you know your tables? Which ones Which ones do you know? [Simon:] Oh that's just a how to make your circle. Tables? [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] Mhm ones [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Ones what's the easiest tables? [Simon:] The easiest probably tens. [John:] Tens erm although are the ones very hard? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] No. [John:] Even easier than the tens yeah? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And what about your nought times table? [Simon:] They're other spellings. [John:] More spellings okay. Okay. So you you might know some of these. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Er how about inside and outside? [Simon:] Inside and outside. Inside is I N I N S I D E. [John:] Okay and outside? [Simon:] O U T... S I D E. [John:] Yeah so if you can [Simon:] Yeah I [John:] spell side you can spell inside and you can [Simon:] Mm. [John:] spell outside as well. Good well done. [Simon:] How I remember outside is like the end of a erm O U T spells out. [John:] Right. [Simon:] And that's how I remember it O U T spells [John:] Right good. Any any way that means something to you that's a good way. If anyone says to you, Oh you don't want to remember it that way. as long as it works for you [Simon:] Mm. [John:] that's fine. [Simon:] It something that you use. [John:] Mm looking a little bit a little bit like a [Simon:] E isn't it. [John:] an E but if you put a dot on it [Simon:] Mm they'll know. [John:] you won't have people calling you Semon then. Oh hello Semon. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [LAUGHTER] Semon. [] [John:] Semon if it's an I put a dot on it. Okay erm can you spell with? [Simon:] With? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Oh erm T I mean T W H I T H. [John:] It's just W I T H. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] So it's not as hard as you thought W I T H with. How about without? [Simon:] Oh W I T H O U T spells out. [John:] T spells out [LAUGHTER] okay so there's some connection between a lot of the words isn't there and if you can spell one you can have a very good guess at another one that's got that word in as part of it. Erm can you spell walk? [Simon:] W I mean [John:] Yeah [Simon:] L [John:] W [Simon:] Is it? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Erm W A C K. [John:] W A L [Simon:] Oh yeah W A L K [John:] Walk walk. [Simon:] Walk. [John:] Can you spell talk? [Simon:] T A L K. [John:] That's it. Talk so can you spell walking and talking? [Simon:] Walking and talking. W A L K I N G [John:] That's it. [Simon:] and talking is talk with I N G on the end. [John:] Well it'll just be the same That's it. Okay so you could spell walked and talked. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Erm what about talked? [Simon:] Talked T A L K [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] E D. [John:] That's it. And walked would just be the same. Now how [Simon:] Mm. [John:] about asked? [Simon:] A S K E D. [John:] That's it now that how do you spell ask? [Simon:] Ask... A S K. [John:] Yeah A S K so that's a one a bit like desk.... It doesn't it's not like back where you've got C K at the end because there's the S in front of it as well it's ask. If it says so a sk sound usually just S K desk ask disk frisk. [Simon:] Okay. [John:] okay it'll be that so you can eventually you can build up... a few tricks that'll help you sort out a lot of the spelling. And I'm pretty sure you'll be getting a lot of spellings right soon. I don't suppose you could spell football could you? [Simon:] Yeah F double O T B A double L. [John:] And match? [Simon:] Match football match M A T C H. [John:] Very good. Excellent. Can you spell you can spell play cos we've done that can you spell ground? [Simon:] G R O U N D. [John:] Good so could you spell playground? [Simon:] Yeah P L A Y G R O U N D. [John:] I think you're very good at spelling actually. I mean seriously. You're not having a lot of trouble with these are you?... I think it's just one or two odd things that you get wrong sometimes like when you should be using a C or a K or a C K or [Simon:] And me D and Cs get mixed up [John:] Ah. [Simon:] Like for ball I do dall and all [John:] Ah well okay. They look they look pretty much the same don't they? [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So you've just got to work out some way that'll make sense to you for remembering which way round they go and probably one good way is just write them out quite a few times think of a lot of words beginning with D. [Simon:] Mm or [John:] Check it somewhere that you're writing it the right way [Simon:] Or picture them in your mind and [John:] Yeah picture them in your mind and then just draw them just write the letter D dog door [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and things like that. Some D words and some B words so that you can sort it out cos the only way you the only the only person really who can make sure it works is you. Your teachers can say, Oh why don't you do this. and I can help you say, Try this way. but you're the only one who can make it work by practising it and by trying it. It might be a bit awkward when you start off but once you've done it a bit it gets easier. Like say playing football. Never have you ever seen little kids trying to play football? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And they go up to it and they f as soon as they pick one foot up to kick the ball they fall over. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] [LAUGHTER] They can't stand [] on one leg and then they're waggling their foot about and missing the ball all together and you think anyone can kick a ball but they can't but then they get better at it. [Simon:] Erm you can like say there's the ball and like and like up here you can go [moan] can't you. they go say they're standing. [John:] Yeah or they go and put their foot on it and trip over. [Simon:] I know mm. [John:] But eventually they s they soon learn cos they keep trying. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] But if you imagine when you were about this high and someone gives you a ball to kick and you you fall over and you, Right I'm not trying that again. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Right I can't do it I give up. [Simon:] And never give up. [John:] And you just never you never you never play football you never enjoy having a game and things like that so. So if you [Simon:] You should never give up or [John:] You need to have another go maybe sometimes think well what am I doing wrong. Oh well maybe I have to practise first without a ball just standing on one leg and waving the other leg about and trying not to fall over. [Simon:] And then do it with the other leg. [John:] Exactly yeah and then when you can do that when you can balance on one leg now we try it with the ball and see if we can kick it and then kick it harder and make it go exactly where you want to. Things like that. So it's building it up in stages. Sometimes people expect you to do everything overnight don't they. They say, You know right go on you've seen it done once now I want you [Simon:] Erm dreaming and [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] dreaming you're the best football player in the world and [John:] Yes that's good dreaming that you can do it. Okay well what's so terrible about this folder then? [Simon:] Everything. [John:] What's all this? You're doing this. [Simon:] Oh erm. [John:] This poem is an excellent choice for older boys and girls. Is it? [Simon:] Mm and [John:] Do you like it? [Simon:] This is me best one we done this this [reading] Daddy where's the gentleman's clothings? Is he feeling too hot? When I am a man may I walk up the street in my nothings? [] and then all the other people shout [reading] Certainly not. [] [John:] [reading] Certainly not. [] That was the Emperor's New Clothes. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right... Okay which so you like that one. And what did you think of that first one then? funny words in it. [Simon:] We haven't done that one yet [John:] [reading] [] [Simon:] I wasn't in I wasn't in... in that song but I went to watch the play [John:] Mm. [Simon:] and then when I got this sheet when I joined choir went, Oh yeah I remember [John:] Right okay. [Simon:] But I really like that one [John:] Well that's oh that'll be good. [Simon:] And we came second out of all the schools. [John:] Did you. Well that's brilliant isn't it. That's brilliant okay. So maths. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Cos when you're sitting down for ages [Simon:] You get pins and needles [John:] you get your legs get stiff you get pins and needles and things like that. Erm we'll just have a look at what we've got. [reading] The words are mixed up. You have many toes how? [] What's that all about? [Simon:] You... you have how many toes? [John:] It's got a question mark on the end so it's a question good. How many toes have you? We would normally say how many what would you say would you go up to someone and say, How many toes have you? what would say? [Simon:] Or... or you have how many toes on your foot or [John:] Yeah you'd say, How many toes have you got? probably wouldn't you. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] you wouldn't say how many toes have you? [reading] Is the third year what month of the of? [] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] What do you make of that? [Simon:] Erm... [John:] What do questions normally start with what sort of words do they start with? [Simon:] Erm [John:] Can you see any word in there that might start a question. [Simon:] The. Oh what. [John:] What okay so what [Simon:] What month of... the year is third... month oh no [LAUGHTER] [John:] Now then what is the third [Simon:] Year. [John:] month [Simon:] of the year? [John:] Good. [reading] What hard of the opposite is? [] [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] Erm what of the opposite [John:] So good what is probably going to start it cos it's a question. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] What [Simon:] Is [John:] What is right what is [Simon:] what is the opposite of hard? [John:] Good what is the opposite of hard? [Simon:] Easy. [reading] Do tree grow what acorns on? [] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So what's it probably going to start with? [Simon:] What. [John:] Okay so what [Simon:] Do tree [John:] Well [Simon:] what what do trees grow on. What do acorns grow... on... tree. [John:] Okay good what [Simon:] Do. [John:] Yeah what [Simon:] Tree. [John:] Tree good. [Simon:] What tree do [John:] do [Simon:] acorns grow on on mm. [John:] [reading] Grass what is the colour of? [] [Simon:] Grass [John:] What's it going to start what word is it going to start with if it's a question? [Simon:] What. [John:] Okay good and there's a good chance [Simon:] What is the colour of grass? [John:] Good no how about this one? [Simon:] [reading] Many has a how legs lamb? [] [LAUGHTER] [John:] So what which one of these words is going to start a question? [Simon:] How. [John:] Good so how [Simon:] How many legs how many legs has a lamb? [John:] Good. And what's this one? Probably going to start with what word? [Simon:] [reading] How in a week days are there many? [] [John:] So how [Simon:] Many [John:] Good how many [Simon:] So that [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] How many days in a week are there? [John:] Right. How many days are there in a week? So what you need to do with these is work out the right way round that they should go and the answer is a number and you need to put the numbers in there don't you. Well sometimes it's a number here it's how many it's what do you know what sort of tree acorns grow on? [Simon:] Acorn tree [LAUGHTER] erm [John:] It's an oak tree and it's another one [Simon:] Yeah oak tree. [John:] that it just ends in a K. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Oak. How do you spell look look [Simon:] Look? [John:] look look out there. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] look at that. [Simon:] Okay erm L double O K. [John:] Good. Now so if it's got a double vowel if it's got O O or say E A say leak L E ache L E A K if it's got a double vowel you just have the K on the end of. Okay so you could do those. Could you do any of those? [Simon:] Erm in each... [John:] Underline which is different. [Simon:] Erm... different [John:] So have a look at number one. Erm which is the easiest one to do of this lot.... Now I okay right I don't want you to underline them now I'd like you to wait until later and then try and work em out again yourself so you get practice doing it. So okay which is the easiest one to work out out of this lot do you think. [Simon:] Erm out of [John:] All those. [Simon:] just that line? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Probably [John:] Which one?... Six times one is pretty easy. okay how about six time none? [Simon:] Six. [John:] Is it? [Simon:] Mm. Six times none. [John:] Six six what does s what does six er let's have a look at this one what does three times two mean? [Simon:] Three three... times two six. [John:] It comes to six what does it mean? Why would we want to work out three times two? Well let's say er if you had two Ps if you had three two Ps you might want to work out how much that comes to. How much would it come to? [Simon:] How much would three two Ps come to? [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Three two Ps comes to six. [John:] so that or you might just have erm say you had biscuits and your mum was going to give you biscuits and you've got two friends round. And she said, Oh I'll give them two biscuits each. So she put them on the plate and she might want to work out what would three lots of two come to. Okay so how much how many would that come to? [Simon:] Six. [John:] Six erm maybe one of your friends didn't turn up and you so out of that six you wouldn't get three lots of two you'd get two lots of three. And you'd have three each then. So that's that's what this is what this is what times means it just means lots of. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So what's six lots of one? [Simon:] Six times one [John:] Six lots of one how many would you have altogether? [Simon:] Twelve. [John:] Times one so if there [Simon:] Oh. [John:] were six of you one for you and one for you and one for you six lots of one [Simon:] Six lots of one [John:] Six six lots of one [Simon:] is oh do you mean like one six? [John:] I mean one one one one one another one. [Simon:] So there's six [John:] Six yeah. [Simon:] and one. [John:] Six lots of six how many are there in your let's let's look at just three lots of two again. There are two in each lot. [Simon:] Yeah.... [John:] Let's use these.... So three pound there there's one lot of three pounds... and three pounds there. So I've got two lots of three pounds I've got six pounds altogether. Mm. How much would I have if I had three lots of two pound? [Simon:] Three lots? [John:] Three lots there's one lot for you, one lot for you, one lot for me. Each person gets two pounds how much [Simon:] Oh three. [John:] So I have three lots of two pounds how many have i got altogether there? [Simon:] Six. [John:] Six right okay. [1409 1] How about if there were just two of use and we had two lots of three? [Simon:] Six. [John:] Six. How about if there were six of us and we all got one pound each so we'd have six lots of one. [Simon:] Six [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right how about if there were six of us and we got none each no one got any how many would there be altogether. [Simon:] None. [John:] None so what's six lots of none come to? [Simon:] Six lots of none. [John:] So there are six of us here it's none for you, none for you, none for you, none for you, none for you and none for me how many altogether? [Simon:] None [LAUGHTER] [John:] None six lots of none. What do ten lots of none come to? [Simon:] Ten lots. [John:] Ten lots of none ten people sitting round a table and they all got nothing they all got none. [Simon:] None [LAUGHTER] [John:] None. Erm how about a hundred lots of none? [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] I don't think a hundred people would sit round [John:] Well we've some of them queuing outside and they're all they're all queuing up for something and they're going to get nothing each. You know how much would they get altogether. [Simon:] None. [John:] None what about a thousand lots of none? [Simon:] None. [John:] Okay so that's the easiest one Anything times nothing is just? [Simon:] None. [John:] Nothing. How about if we had no lots of ten? [Simon:] No lots [John:] How many? [Simon:] of ten? [John:] Yeah. Let's say we had let's do it with three [Simon:] None. [John:] That's none good yeah.... Six lots of none will always come to the same as [Simon:] None. [John:] no lots of six they'll both come to nothing. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] So three lots of two? [Simon:] Three times two erm... nine. [John:] Is it? There's two another two [Simon:] Oh. [John:] another two. [Simon:] Oh six. [John:] Six you were doing a harder one than they was asking. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay. Three add three?... [Simon:] Yeah three six. [John:] Six. Six lots of one?... [Simon:] Er six. [John:] Six. Five add one?... Five add one. [Simon:] Oh [LAUGHTER] six. [John:] Six. And six lots of nothing. [Simon:] None. [John:] So which is the odd one out there? [Simon:] Oh the odd one is [John:] That come to a different answer from all the others. Three add two three times two? [Simon:] Or that one nine. [John:] Three ti hang on three add three? [Simon:] Oh f oh that's [John:] That's six. [Simon:] That one. [John:] That one so that's the odd one out. Six lots of nothing comes to nothing. [Simon:] So you can underline that one. [John:] So you can underline that one later. Now what have we got here? Eight take away one? [Simon:] Eight take away one is just erm seven. [John:] Okay eight times one eight lots of one eight ones? [Simon:] Eight ones eight. [John:] Two lots of four? [Simon:] T erm two fours oh four twos erm [John:] Four twos two fours which ever one's easier it's going to come to the same answer. [Simon:] Eight. [John:] Eight and well four twos two fours and four twos? [Simon:] Two fours four twos Eight. [John:] Four add four well we've got two lots of four there haven't we. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So it's going to come to two fours so that comes to? [Simon:] Erm [John:] Four add four is the same it's just the same as two lots of four Eight. [Simon:] Four add four is erm eight. Eight. [John:] So the odd one out there? [Simon:] The odd one out there is erm [John:] That came to eight that came four add four is eight [Simon:] Eight. [John:] four twos are eight. [Simon:] Eight. [John:] Two fours are? [Simon:] Eight. [John:] Eight ones are? [Simon:] Eight [John:] Eight take away one is? [Simon:] Seven. [John:] So which one's the odd one out?... That's it. Okay. Three times four three lots of four? [Simon:] Three three times four... three fours is three three six nine [cough] three six nine... twelve. Twelve. [John:] Twelve good three lots of four is twelve. Six lots of two? [Simon:] Six lots of two. [John:] Or you could do two sixes. Yeah good. [Simon:] Twelve. [John:] twelve. [Simon:] [cough] [John:] And you've done th you did three fours and you got twelve what's four threes? [Simon:] Twelve? [John:] Good and you did [Simon:] That's just the same as that one [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] really. [John:] You did six twos so what's two sixes? [Simon:] Erm forgotten what the answer was. [John:] Two sixes came to [Simon:] Twelve. [John:] twelve. Five add eight. Or eight and it's usually easier to put [Simon:] Eight add three. [John:] Yes eight add five. Eight five. [Simon:] Thirteen. [John:] Right so which one's the odd one out?... That one okay. Nine times one nine lots of one nine of us [Simon:] Nine. [John:] and we all get one pound each what would that come to? [Simon:] Nine. [John:] Okay. Eight add one?... Good. [Simon:] Eight take away one. [John:] Right eight take away one? nine take away one is going to come to eight. Eight add one? [Simon:] Eight eight. [John:] Eight add one. [Simon:] Oh eight add one nine. [John:] Three lots of three? [Simon:] Nine. [John:] Five add four? [Simon:] Nine. [John:] Okay so you worked Erm I think you can do these on your own you can [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] work those out okay. Yeah? [Simon:] There's stuff in erm them them there [John:] Okay so you can do these. Mhm.... Those some of those might be a little awkward. Erm tables if you learn the tables it's a lot easier. Now there's no need to learn all of the tables erm er what I will do is if you want any more lessons I'll do you some special tables cut down so you only have to learn about half the normal and then you'll know them all cos if you know two sixes. If you know six twos you don't need to learn two sixes do you. And if you know four threes then you don't need to learn three fours. [Simon:] I know. [John:] So we'll cut it all down so there's only about half of it that you need to learn okay and I'll print you a table out on the computer like that and then you can ask your mum to ask you them. tell her not er not to be sort of hurrying you too much saying, Oh come on come on you should learn. It's no good [Simon:] No. [John:] it's no good saying to someone come on you should know this if they don't it doesn't help does it. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] No. Okay and you say there are some in here? [Simon:] we're starting this book erm when we're coming back form Easter. [John:] You're starting this [Simon:] Yeah so [John:] Okay so you'll be doing angles and things like that. And weight. [whispering] You'll be investigating area and perimeter. Okay and drawing pictures of castles. Mm. [] Have you been to any castles? [Simon:] Well Edinburgh Castle [John:] Mm oh that's good.... I think I saw Edinburgh Castle I haven't been in so [Simon:] Well we haven't actually been in but [John:] Ah that one I think is Sissinghurst Castle. I've been in there. It's [Simon:] Any good? [John:] Oh very nice yes yeah. Sissinghurst... or is it I know I've been there I took a photograph of my son outside there holding the doors. [Simon:] I've got a picture of me standing outside Edinburgh Castle you know [John:] Mm. [Simon:] in between two guards like that with the [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] machine guns. [John:] Okay so you'll be doing all these how far is it from one place to the other. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and things like that. That's your book two. Have you got your book one about? [Simon:] Book one's [John:] Is that okay. Well I think if we can and it's up to you if you want any more lessons. But if you want to have some more lessons you want if you don't want to you can tell me now or you can leave it and get your mum to tell me later that you don't want any more. Erm if you do I think what we'll do is we'll go through this book one so that we make sure that you really know everything in this and you're really good at it. Yeah? [Simon:] So [John:] and then when you go on to book and we'll if we get through this in time we'll have a look at book two as well. But it's no good going on to that until you're really pretty good at this then you should be able to follow what's going on here. It's a bit like somebody sort of can only just about kick a ball and you say, We'll make him our centre forward. and you wonder why you're losing all your matches cos every time the ball comes to him he can't trap it or if he does he kicks it the wrong way an own goal or something. So you've got to build up gradually doing each little bit at a time and working on it. They can't expect you to do everything overnight can they? To just suddenly be able to do the whole lot yeah. a little bit at a time build it up. We'll work a little bit on the maths and a little bit on the English each time. [Simon:] Oh mm I'll tell me mum to get erm a few you know come round a few before go back to school so [John:] Okay. It's up to you. Let's have a look I'll leave those you can have a look through some of those and [Simon:] Okay. [John:] you know you're coins that you've got there? [Simon:] I count them put them into little money bags. [John:] Okay well this is what I'd like you to do. I'd like you to put them out just bring me the bottle over now I'll show you what I want you to do.... What have we got. They all one Ps? Or mixed? [Simon:] Ones and twos. [John:] Ones and twos so we'll sort some out.... [Simon:] Orange juice. [John:] Orange juice okay squash.... [Simon:] Now find all the [John:] Right keep all the the ones over your side. Okay what I want you to do is to get twelve of them first and put them into see how many rectangles you could make. I mean you could make if we had twelve we get another two....... So with twelve we could make [Simon:] Two. [John:] the way you're looking at it it's six lot's of two isn't it. If you look at it from round that way it's two lots of six. So you can do things like that you can do erm playing with your coins. [Simon:] Draw round them. [John:] draw round them just put them put them out like that and when you've put them out to make a a pattern you can say if you just work with twelve first. And you do things like two lots of six makes twelve and six lots of two makes twelve. [Simon:] Equals twelve. [John:] And then you could say well we could try threes try that see if you could make em into into sets of three. [Simon:] Into sets of three? [John:] How many lots of three would you get? [Simon:] Right so I'll scramble them all up so like [John:] Like that okay. [Simon:] Okay. [John:] And then carry on and you you try that and see what you can do with with that. When you've done twelves... and you've got all the answers that you all the things you can make out of it. See if you could make lots of fives maybe you can maybe you can't that's for you to find out okay. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Then try it with twenty four of them. Then try it with thirty six. Now that will probably be enough all the different [Simon:] Thirty six. [John:] patterns you can make. But if you still get through all that and you want to do more try sixty. Sixty of them and put them out and make them into nice little lines and that and see what things you'd have to multiply together to make twelve or what numbers you'd multiply together cos it'd be so many sets of like four sets of three or three sets of four. Two sets of six six sets of two. I don't think you'll take very long on the twelves I think you'll have that sorted out pretty quickly. Then you try the twenty four and then try the sixty. So I'll leave that for you to play with and erm I better give your mum a shout because I should have gone by now. I've got another I've got someone I'm supposed to ring up and somebody else that I've I've got a lesson starting soon. [Simon:] It's nearly twenty past... eight.... [John:] ... [Simon:] So I'll tell me mum to give you. [John:] That's probably best. Erm if you get to ask your mum to come in I'll just ask her what's what you're doing next week. I think the best is get some of this stuff done during the holidays yeah? And then when you go back to school you won't be thinking, Oh they're all rushing ahead and doing it and I'm getting left [Simon:] I know. [John:] behind. Cos it makes you feel bad that doesn't it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And you start thinking, Oh dear [Simon:] That's what puts me off me work really. [John:] It does put you off and you start thinking, Oh there's no point trying it cos I know I'm going to be last. [Simon:] sometimes goes, First one to finish... wins so and so. and the last one sometimes [John:] But. [Simon:] But I'm not the last. [John:] Good. [Simon:] I've never been last. [John:] Oh that's great. Well I reckon if we practise a lot during the holidays if you play with the pennies and things and think about the spellings and try... you know you don't have to read through the whole dictionary just learn some [Simon:] Or re redo all that at some point. [John:] Yeah. I've do It's like it's like practising for football I mean you might be the best footballer in the world and you say you know they say well you've just won the cup say [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and then they say, Are you going to what are you gonna do now for for next cup? Oh nothing. I don't I don't need to practise. So you just sit and watch the telly for a year and not do anything he's not gonna be very good [Simon:] No. [speaker004:] in the next years cup is he. So So if you just call your mum.... [Simon:] Oh yeah. [John:] Oh yes I'll take that. [Simon:] ... [John:] That's it just give her a shout. [Simon:] [shouting] Mum. []... [speaker001:] Hiya getting on? [John:] Oh well how did we get on? What did you think of it? [Simon:] Okay. [speaker001:] Okay. Okay. Good [John:] Good so [speaker001:] so that's good. [John:] how do you feel about it do you think you're going to get the hang of this [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] spelling and the sums and things like that. [Simon:] Yeah quick. [speaker001:] Do you? [John:] Yeah? [Simon:] Quick. [John:] I think so I think he's he's good at picking it up. It's just that if in you need you want it explained to you in a way you understand don't you rather than [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] someone going on about how they think you should understand it. [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] So I think he's picking it up very well. I've given him some some things to play he's going to play with his pennies and make patterns and work out his tables. [speaker001:] Alright. [John:] And for next time I'll get some erm a special set of tables for him a lot easier to learn so that he can learn his tables and he'll only have to learn about half of them and then he'll know all of them. Cos some [speaker001:] Right. [John:] are duplicated. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] So we'll get that sorted out and been talking about it I think the best bet is if we can get a few lessons in during the holidays so that when he goes back to school he'll be more or less up to date. [speaker001:] Mhm. [John:] Erm if we get on very well if we get through say that book one on the maths if we get through very well then we can start having a look at what he's going to do when he goes back so he'll understand the terms when they're explained to him [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] cos we want want him to get maximum benefit from the school not just [speaker001:] Right. [John:] rely on me. [speaker001:] That's right yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought he said he got through book one but is there some stuff in it he doesn't understand yet? [John:] Erm I think we need to just go through it [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] and just make sure about a few things don't we on the book one. [Simon:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] Because this is this is very common in maths that there isn't really time for the teachers to give them [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] this attention everyone needs so sort of whiz through it okay you've done that [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] now we go on to book two because [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] that's what we do this term we go on to book two. [speaker001:] Yeah this is it yeah [John:] And if you don't know it you're not a hundred percent sure on book one [speaker001:] You're gonna be struggling yeah. [John:] you just can't understand what it's on about so [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] the only way to do it is get that book one really sort of so he really understands it and then he's gonna be interested in book two cos he'll [speaker001:] Right. [John:] understand it and he'll get [speaker001:] Okay fine. So what what day do you suggest next week? [John:] I I'm not sure at the moment are there any days that are [speaker001:] Erm I I've just been talking to me husband about it. Tuesdays and Thursdays we though were good days so leave it at them. [John:] Okay okay erm [speaker001:] Because erm [John:] Right. [speaker001:] Monday it's too soon after the weekend. [John:] Oh yes yeah. [speaker001:] And he he he does jujitsu classes which he's [John:] Does he? [speaker001:] gonna start up again on Wednesday [John:] Oh good. [speaker001:] evenings [John:] Good. [speaker001:] and then if he ever wants to stay over a friends [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Friday's not a good one you see. [John:] Okay well [speaker001:] So. [John:] Tuesd yeah Tuesday and Thursday then cos we'll try and fit in with you if you can. So do you want Tuesday and Thursday next week? [speaker001:] Or just just the once I think what's whatever's best for you [John:] Okay. [speaker001:] Tuesday or Thursday. [John:] Right now Oh very good. that's good that's good. Erm I'm just trying to think we really want to try and fit a few lessons into the holiday if you can it's up to you fit in. Erm probably about sort of four or five would be ideal but we can see what we can do with about maybe three or something like that. [speaker001:] Mm. [John:] It depends on how much you can do how much Simon can do on his own if I give him stuff to do. [speaker001:] Okay. [John:] Erm so have a go at that stuff and work through it and think about think of new words for yourself and I've suggested that he gets a notebook to put some spelling in. [speaker001:] Right he's got plenty I've got plenty [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] of pads about the place. [John:] To just k just keep that with you [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] Keep your spellings in that and when you come across new spellings put them in there. Okay. [speaker001:] That's a bit like erm didn't you used to have a word box with words in? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah. [speaker001:] Have you still got that upstairs yeah? [John:] Yeah good that's a good idea but now you can start keeping them in a in a book. [speaker001:] we'll keep them in a book. So shall we erm say Tuesday then we'll see how we go from there. [John:] Yeah Tue Tuesday'll [speaker001:] Is that okay? [John:] be fine. Erm I'm not sure what time yet but erm it's more likely to be sort of just before lunch or just sort of or maybe just after lunch or round four o'clock I try to keep the younger ones earlier so they're not you know it's not [speaker001:] Yeah. [John:] too late for them so it'll be earlier on. Erm if I give you a ring about Sunday or so I will have sorted out cos I've got quite a few to sort out at the moment. [speaker001:] Okay then yeah that's fine. [John:] Okay.... [speaker001:] Are you gonna put your things away Simon?... There there we go. [John:] Right thank you. Now that's how much is there? [Simon:] Five. [John:] And that one? [Simon:] Oh erm fifteen. [John:] Right and it's thirteen pounds fifty so how much change? [Simon:] Fifteen [John:] So thirteen fifty and that would make how many? [Simon:] Thirteen fifty what how much i [John:] Thirteen pound thirteen pound fifty and then [Simon:] Thirteen pound fifty then it's [John:] How much does that make? Another fifty onto thirteen pound fifty. If you had fifty pence and [Simon:] Fifty [John:] then you got another fifty pence how much would that be? [Simon:] A pound. [John:] Okay so we've got thirteen pounds forget about that for a minute and then fifty pence. [Simon:] Two pound change isn't it? [speaker001:] No. [Simon:] Fifteen [John:] That would make it up to [speaker001:] But it's thirteen fifty [John:] fourteen pounds. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] That would make it four [tape ends]

[speaker001:] Okay.... Now what we'll do do you like pizza? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] I've got some stale pizza here do you like stale pizza?... Do you we could make that into a whole pizza?... Okay right that's lovely. Now do you know what any of these are? Do you know what fraction that would be of a whole pizza? [Simon:] Er... [John:] What fraction's that?... Well don't worry if you don't know. How many of those would you need to make a whole pizza? [Simon:] Erm [John:] Let's have a look... one... two... [Simon:] Three... [John:] And this one here?... [Simon:] erm four. [John:] So we need four of those to make a whole pizza so we call that... a fourth well the Americans call it a fourth [Simon:] Fourth. [John:] we call we've got a special name for it we call it a quarter. [Simon:] Quarter. [John:] And we write it like this.... It's one on the top and there's the table and then [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] the fourth underneath. One shared out that just means one shared between four. Fra fractions are a bit of a cheat really because this is what we do we say... [whispering] let's have a look at the page []... how much would you get if you had one and you shared it out between four and you just write well it's one shared out between four. You haven't really got the answer at all you've just written it differently and that's all it means whatever you're sharing out goes on the top what ever number of people of people it's being shared out between go underneath. Erm do you normally sit on the table stand on the table? [Simon:] No. [John:] No. if your mum brought a pizza in would we put it under the table or on the table? [Simon:] On the table. [John:] On the table so whatever you're sharing out goes on top there's the table... put some little legs on okay there's the table whatever you're sharing out goes on top and we're sitting here with our knees under the table okay so the people are underneath the table. How about if we had one shared out between three people have a guess at what it would look like the fraction. [Simon:] One... erm three. [John:] One over three that's a third. Now can you show me here any are there any pieces there is there a piece there that would be a third? So that you'd get move those round a bit so that you'd get Say that pizza came in like that and your mum sat down there said, Right we're having some pizza we're going to share this out between the three of us so we all get the same sized piece. How big a piece would we get? One of those? How many how many pieces like that would you get out of it?... A lot I think cos this this bit's a quarter isn't it and we'd get that'd be enough if we cut it into quarters how many quarters would we get? [Simon:] Erm... [John:] How many of those would we get? [Simon:] Erm [John:] Right right that'd be that'd be the same as well wouldn't it that'd be another quarter. How many... How many quarters would we get out of this piece here? [Simon:] One two [John:] Two so so we'd get four quarters right four fourths if you like that's one fourth one quarter. We'd get four fourths. So if there are less people sharing it out are we going to get more pizza or are we going to get less? [Simon:] More. [John:] We're going to get more so it's going to be a bigger piece that that isn't it it's going to be bigger than the quarter. Can you see any pieces that are bigger than the quarter? That one okay. So let's see if we could get three pieces like that out of a whole one?... Yeah cos these that'd make another one wouldn't it. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Let's have a look. [Simon:] One [John:] One two [Simon:] two [John:] And this one do you want to put that on there.... And they'd be all the same size so if we had a piece like those two stuck together [Simon:] Three. [John:] that'd be that'd go round three people evenly so that'd be a third if we had these two pieces stuck together that'd be a third [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and this one that's a third. [Simon:] Third. [John:] So one shared out between three people is a third. Now what I'd like you to do is show me can you divide it up if we were going to eat this whole pizza between the two of us if it was one one shared out between two people how much would we get? [Simon:] Mm.... Erm [John:] Show me again. [Simon:] Those [John:] Would that be it? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So that how big a what's that? [Simon:] Half. [John:] That's a half. So one... shared out between two people is just one a half again okay. Where do you think erm how would we write one shared out between six people? How would we write it? [Simon:] One and the table and then the six. [John:] That's it... so that's what a sixth looks like. What does it mean? Well it means we had one and we shared it out between six people. Now any idea what one sixth would look like? We found out what one shared out between three people is like that's a third. If we shared it out between six people would we get more or would we get less? [Simon:] Less. [John:] We'd get less wouldn't we. erm how many of how many of these would we need to go all the way round?... It takes two of those takes two of those to make a third to make. [Simon:] Two. [John:] So how many thirds did we have?... [Simon:] Three [John:] Three thirds that's it three thirds. Now let's say let's say your mum came in and she said how many for this pizza and we said oh just the three of us and she cut it... cut it up into three pieces three pieces all the same size. Cut it into three thirds. Show me how how big they'd be. Show me which one's a third.... Right that one or those two stuck together would make a third. Or these bits stuck together. So we'd get one third and then just as we were going to eat it three other people came in. And said, Oh can't we have some. How would you share it out so we all got the same?... We you you've got let's say let's say there's your third you've got your third. And I'm sitting next to you right. And... so there are six people all together there's your mum and your dad okay and then there's two friends over there and we're sitting here. So mum and dad have half of that third they'd share it out between them so they got [Simon:] Mm. Me and me friend'd have half of that one. [John:] Yeah yes. So you'd need six [Simon:] Six. [John:] of these six pieces like that. Now that's what's that Kerry if we get six like that make a whole one? [Simon:] A half oh [John:] If it needs six like that to make the whole one these this is one sixth. Cos this is what you get if you have one shared out between six people so they all get the same okay. So that's that's one sixth okay. Now don't worry about this is it going do you think it's going a bit quickly? Okay. Do you think we're doing a lot all in one go? Mm I'll just... show you one last one and then we'll we'll we'll start this again and have a little look at the beginning. Now let's say we've done that we thought there were three people here so you though you were getting a third right. And then there were twice s many people there were six people. So you had to share yours with someone else and you just got a sixth okay. And then just as you were about to eat that another six people turned up so there were twelve altogether and you'd have to shar share that [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] with some one else. Let me just get down there. just get that little piece. Now that's the piece that you'd get if there were twelve of you sharing out one pizza so what do you think that's called? Have a guess doesn't matter if it's not right. [Simon:] A twelfth? [John:] A twelfth yes great that's a twelfth and how would we write it? [Simon:] One [John:] Shared out between twelve people equals what would it look like? [Simon:] equals one... table [John:] One and then th one on top of the table and underneath? [Simon:] Twelve. [John:] Twelve that's it. So that's one twelfth and that's what it looks like. How many twelfths would you need to make a sixth? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Good and how many sixths how many sixths would you need to make a third? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Erm how many... how many twelfths would you need to make a quarter? Think how many you'd need. [Simon:] That's one three. [John:] Three right so... perhaps someone had divided this pizza up and all the extra people kept coming in and your mum was saying, Oh no I thought there were going to be three and now there's six of us. Right cut it into six. Oh no more turning up twelve of us cut it into twelfths. Yeah and then she's already cut it up into twelfths like this and then she thinks about asking them who wants pizza and there's only four of them want pizza after all this trouble. So one pizza shared out between four people how much are they going to get each?... One shared out between four is? [Simon:] A fourth. [John:] A fourth or a special name for it a quarter [Simon:] Quarter. [John:] and that's what it looks like. So we'd have that but she's already cut them all up into twelfths so how many twelfths how many twelfths would we get each? [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three so she'd say, Oh you know mind I've cut it up a bit do you you shouldn't it's still a quarter still a quarter you haven't lost a bit of it but it's still a quarter three twelfths is the same as a quarter. exactly the same isn't it you get the amount. How about how about if she had erm say just the two of us just the two of us and share one pizza between the two of us how much would you get each? [Simon:] Er... [John:] So it's it's one shared out between two. [Simon:] Yeah a half. [John:] A half right. So your mum's cut it up or you've cut it up this time just between the two of us and you've cut it into two halves you've got half there and I've got another half. And then another two people come in so we've got four people all together. How much are we going to get now if we share one between four people?... It'll be [Simon:] Thirds. [John:] one shared out between four [Simon:] Fourths. [John:] A fourth exactly a fourth. So we'll get a fourth we get one of those how many fourth would you get out of a half? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two you don't do you remember the special name for a [Simon:] Quarter. [John:] Quarter so how many quarters would you get out of a half? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Right and how many halves make a quarter?... [Simon:] Mm one. [John:] How many oh I said that the wrong way round didn't I. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] How many quarters make a half? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two brilliant. Very good okay. Erm... can you remember what size that is? [Simon:] It's a quarter. [John:] Let's have a look that one is a quarter and this one's a bit bigger. [Simon:] A sixth. [John:] So we must be shared now this is the interesting thing which do you think is bigger, a a sixth or a third. [Simon:] A third. [John:] Yeah in the the number on the bottom is bigger but that just means you've got to share it out between more people so do you get more or less if you share it between more people? [Simon:] Less. [John:] You get less. So as the number on the bottom is getting bigger... [Simon:] You get less. [John:] the fraction's getting smaller and smaller the piece you get is getting less and less. That was all we got when it was a twelfth a little tiny piece like that. [LAUGHTER] So that's a sixth and that's a third which is bigger?... Yeah which one's bigger? [Simon:] The the sixth. [John:] The [Simon:] Third. [John:] The thir it sounds as if the sixth should be bigger doesn't it cos it's got a six in it. A third's only got a three in but the third is bigger. How many sixths would you need to make up a third? Try it.... Try this. [Simon:] Mm.... Erm two. [John:] Two so two sixths would make a third. Now this is two sixths that we've use to make the third. How many twelfths would make a sixth? A sixth. Okay here here's a sixth [Simon:] Mm. [John:] and how many twelfths would make a sixth?... [Simon:] Two. [John:] Right very good. Now a tricky one how many twelfths would make a third? There's the third two sixths how many twelfths would you need? [Simon:] One... two [John:] Two okay. [Simon:] three [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] four. [John:] Four so four twelfths' d make a third. So if our mum had cut it up into twelve pieces and then only three people wanted pizza so she cut it up into twelve twelfths and then said who wants pizza and only three people wanted pizza she'd now have to put some of these twelfths back together again then and just three of us how many twelfths would we get?... [Simon:] One two three four. [John:] Four so we'd get four twelfths. Okay what do you think about fractions? [Simon:] They're hard when you know how to do them but like [John:] If you don't know what they mean i anything if you don't know how to do it it's hard but if you don't even know what they mean it's very hard to work out what's going on isn't it and what you're supposed to be doing. Do you think you're getting a a better idea of what they mean what it's about. It's just sharing out. I mean if I said, Share six Mars bars between two of us. how many would we get each?... [Simon:] Erm [John:] Six Mars bars share them out between two of us. There's six share it out between the two of us. [Simon:] Three each. [John:] Three each okay now if I said share erm... if I said share ten pence between five people how many would they get each?... Well how many fives make ten? [Simon:] Two. [John:] two each. Now if I said share five pence between ten people what would you say about that?... a bit hard isn't it. Mm. So... say we put the people into pairs into sets of two. How many sets of two would those people make then if there were ten of them? How many twos make ten?... [Simon:] Five. [John:] Five good so we'd have all the people sitting round a table five sets or two. Perhaps they could both sit on one chair between one chair between the two of them. And then with the five pennies we could say well penny between you two, penny between you two, another penny between you two, between you two,an. So that the five pence we shared it out and we've given each two each two people one penny between them. How much would they have then? If we had the penny between the two of us how much would we get each? [Simon:] Nothing. [John:] Nothing okay if we had the pizza between the two of us how much would we get each?... One shared out between two.... How much would we get each? [Simon:] Half. [John:] That's it okay. Erm so if we had one penny shared out between two of us we get a half a penny each a half penny which they don't have any more they used to but they have them any more. So fractions it's only sharing. It's just like sharing I mean if we had two pizzas and we shared them between the two of us how many would [Simon:] whole. [John:] We'd have a whole one. If we had erm four pizzas and we shared them between the two of us how many would we get?... Four share it out between two of us [Simon:] Two. [John:] We'd get two each. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] If we had six pizzas and we shared them out between two of us how [Simon:] three pizzas each. [John:] We'd get three each so it's just fractions are just sharing. It's just that what happens is... we we've got less sometimes we have less pizzas than we've got people. Okay so we've got one pizza share it out between the two of us we get? [Simon:] A half. [John:] Share it out between four of us how many would we get? [Simon:] A Twelfth. [John:] If we shared it out between twelve of us we'd get a twelfth. [Simon:] Get erm [John:] Share it out between four of us we get [Simon:] Quarter. [John:] A quarter yeah. You could say a fourth it doesn't matter it's the same thing. Erm if we shared it out between six of us? [Simon:] A sixth. [John:] How about if we shared it out between a tenth of us.... Have a guess go on.... If we share it out between four of us it's a fourth if we share it [Simon:] A tenth. [John:] A tenth yes brilliant very good. How many fourths make up a whole... how many fourths to make a whole one?... [Simon:] Four. [John:] Four how many how many sixths make up a whole one? Have a guess. How many tenths make a whole one... you got it right said ten. [Simon:] Ten. [John:] How many how many sixths make a whole one? [Simon:] Six. [John:] Yeah good good. How many twelfths make a whole one? [Simon:] Twelve. [John:] Very good erm alright go for an impossible one how many mm how many twentieths make a whole? [Simon:] Twenty. [John:] Yep. I think you've got it haven't you. How many hundredths make a whole one? [Simon:] A hundred. [John:] Yeah. That's it. Now which is bigger a sixth of a third? [Simon:] A third. [John:] Very good very good now a lot of people take a long time to get that. They keep saying well a sixth must be bigger cos six is bigger. that's how many people you're sharing with so that's very good you got that very quickly. Oh I'm very pleased I think you're going to like fractions aren't you. If you if you don't understand things it gets very hard to like them cos you d just don't know what's going on do you? Once you get to know a bit what's happening. And you get good at doing it then it's, Hey I can do this. Then you start liking it. So do you think you're going to get on alright with fractions? Yeah when we've had a look at fractions a bit erm we'll play with those and we'll find out things like what's half of a quarter things like that. So what does that's when you start thinking about half of a quarter it gets very confusing what do you mean do you mean half or a quarter? Well what they mean when they say a half of a quarter is that we had a a quarter and we've shared it out between the two of it so we've got half to that each. How much would we get? Have a guess. It's not one that we've met so far so it's a completely new one. [Simon:] A fifth? [John:] If we had there's a quarter. How many of those to go all the way round? [Simon:] Erm [John:] How many quarters would make a whole one?... [Simon:] Four. [John:] Four okay good. If we cut each one of those into two pieces the same, how many of the new pieces would we need to go all the way round? [Simon:] Four oh [John:] We need we need four like that four quarters that's good and then for each one of those when we've cut it in two it would give us two of the new pieces so every one of those four would give us two new pieces how many would we have altogether then?... We'd have four lots of two wouldn't we do you know what that is four twos? Or two fours? [Simon:] Two's two four eight. [John:] Eight so we'd have eight pieces all the same size and what would that be called have a guess? [Simon:] An eighth. [John:] That's it an eighth. That's an eighth. So two eighths would make a quarter. Two quarters would make [Simon:] A... third. [John:] A half. [Simon:] Oh. [John:] Would make a half and two halves would make [Simon:] A whole. [John:] That's it good. That's very good. Okay so don't need to learn all the fractions but we need to we'll probably just go playing with these the ones we've got here. Now which is bigger? What's what size is this? [Simon:] A fourth. [John:] A fourth okay which is bigger a fourth or a sixth? [Simon:] A fourth. [John:] A fourth. Now let's see how much bigger. Well it's that much bigger isn't it. Can you see any there that would just fit in that? Right so if we added together a sixth and a twelfth what will it make? This one here what's this? [Simon:] A quarter. [John:] A quarter so a sixth and a twelfth makes a quarter [Simon:] Quarter. [John:] now this isn't I mean there are some funny rules with fractions aren't there sort of tricky things you have to do. Not that tricky once you understand them. And we didn't make them up. Just to make it hard it's because this is how it really works when we're sharing out things. So a quarter... how many twelfths ion a quarter? [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three twelfths in a quarter. That's what size is this piece go on say it. [Simon:] A sixth. [John:] A sixth how many twelfths would we need top make a sixth? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two. So if we had a sixth and a twelfth well the sixth is the same as two twelfth and another twelfth makes how many?... Two twelfths from there and then an extra twelfth how many have we got?... Two two twelfths there and then another twelfth. [speaker004:] Excuse me would you like another drink? [John:] Erm I wouldn't mind actually I I can't drink milk actually I'm it's okay I did say but yeah yeah yeah so so just black no sugar that'd be lovely thanks. [speaker004:] Oh look I'm sorry I'm sorry So black black okay. [John:] Now and so that's [Simon:] A sixth. [John:] two twelfths there. That's sixth one sixth but you could make two twelfths out of that. And another twelfth. What would two apples plus one apple come to? [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three apples okay. Have a guess what do you think two twelfths add one twelfth comes to how many twelfths would that come to? Two and the an extra one two twelfths and an extra one twelfth how many twelfths would we have altogether? Have a guess.... We've got two pears and then we had we had say two bananas and then another banana how many bananas would we have then. [Simon:] Three. [John:] If we had two pigs and another pig how many pigs would we have? [Simon:] Three. [John:] If we had two twelfths and another twelfth how many twelfths would we have altogether? [Simon:] Three twelfths. [John:] That's it three three twelfths. And three twelfths is the same as a quarter isn't it. We stuck three twelfths together we can make a quarter. Do this is how we have to add up fractions. If if I say well let's try and add up a sixth and a twelfth and most people want to add the six and the twelve together and things like that but you can't do it that way you'll have to change them both into something that's the same. twelfths is a good one quite often and then we'll add up and find out how many twelfths we've got. And then see what that how many that would make. So three three twelfths that would make a quarter. [Simon:] A quarter. [John:] So a sixth plus one twelfth is [Simon:] A quarter. [John:] good very good oh that's good. Okay how about if we added here's a tricky one see if you can work out how we're going to do it. A quarter add a sixth. Now could you turn them all into twelfths? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay how many twelfths would there be in the quarter? How many twelfths would there [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three twelfths good and how many twelfths would there be in the sixth? [Simon:] Two. [John:] So how many twelfths would we have altogether? [Simon:] Five. [John:] Five brilliant. So we'd have five twelfths. That's very good. Thanks very much. [speaker004:] Okay. [John:] Okay thanks. So we'd have five twelfths. Right erm now you're doing very well at this. Let's try this one. Quite a big one. That one's this one's a quarter and remember what this one is? [Simon:] A third. [John:] A third good. So if we added a third and a quarter could you turn them into twelfths? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay go on how many [Simon:] Three. [John:] Good. [Simon:] Two... [John:] let's have a look at that [Simon:] one [John:] put it there. How much is that bit there that we haven't haven't covered? [Simon:] A quarter. [John:] A quarter and how many twelfths in a quarter? [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three so there's three twelfths there and that one makes? [Simon:] Seven. [John:] Good. So it's seven twelfths altogether so if we add a third to a quarter [Simon:] Third and a quarter [John:] Say add a third and a quarter can't do that don't know where to start. Change them into twelfths [Simon:] Seven. [John:] and add the twelfths up seven twelfths. Okay how about erm this one? Now this time we don't need to change them into twelfths could you add that's a half add a sixth? Any idea what we could change this into so we could add them? [Simon:] erm [John:] What could we change that half into so that we could one sixth to it?... Go on have a guess. [Simon:] Twelfths or [John:] We could twe change it into twelfths yes and we could change the six into twelfths see what that would come to. How many twelfths would we get in that? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two in there and how many twelfths would we get out of the half? [Simon:] Seven erm [John:] We'd get [Simon:] t two [John:] Two out of that and then another two [Simon:] Two. [John:] would be four [Simon:] Four. [John:] and another two [Simon:] Would be six. [John:] Six so six twelfths makes a half. Yeah. Six twelfths and another [Simon:] Eight. [John:] two twelfths is eight [Simon:] Eight. [John:] twelfths right. So if we add a half [Simon:] To a to a sixth. [John:] to a sixth we get eight twelfths. [Simon:] Eight. [John:] Okay. Erm we could even do it without bothering with twelfths on this. We could just change them into sixths. How many sixths would we get out of a half? [Simon:] Two. [John:] have a look.... [Simon:] Three. [John:] that's a half okay so three sixths add... one sixth [Simon:] Sixth. [John:] how many would that be? [Simon:] Three four. [John:] Four sixths. And four sixths comes to the same as two thirds. One third and another third. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Okay have you done cancelling fractions? [Simon:] No. [John:] No. Okay have you done things like erm three twelfths is the same as a quarter? have you done that at school? [Simon:] I'm not too sure really. [John:] No well you may have done. But this is the this is the secret with fractions this is the trick. So that you can do anything. To be able to change them into different fractions. So you you'll already know how to change a sixth into twelfths don't you? How many twelfths does that make? [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two twelfths good. And you know how to change a quarter into twelfths how many twelfths does that make? [Simon:] Three. [John:] Three twelfths good and can you remember how many twelfths you got out of a half? [Simon:] Mm... one two three four five six. [John:] Six twelfths. So what would a half add a twelfth come to? [Simon:] Seven. [John:] Seven twelfths very good. You're doing all this in your head you know you're not writing any of it down are you? Doing fractions in your head. Adding them up I think that's very good. I think that's excellent. You could probably do take aways. Take away fractions. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] You don't think you could I think you could. What would be a quarter take away a twelfth? Cut that off. [Simon:] Two. [John:] Two twelfths. [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] And two twelfths is the same as? [Simon:] One quarter. [John:] One sixth yeah one sixth. So you're doing take aways in your head now. A quarter take away a twelfth. What about a sixth take away a twelfth what would that come to? [Simon:] One twelfth. [John:] One twelfth one twelfth. How about one third take away one twelfth what would that come to? [Simon:] Mm.... Three. [John:] Three twelfths which is the same as [Simon:] Mm one fourth. [John:] A fourth. Okay erm how about a half take away a twelfth? How many would we have left over? [Simon:] Four five. [John:] Five five twelfths cos we started off with six twelfths take one twelfth away start off with six pigs and take one pig away got five pigs. Start off with six twelfths and take one twelfth away you've got five twelfths. I think you're very good at this. What do you think? Do you think you're getting you know you know what it's about don't you? Yes. Well I think that's very good. Okay erm what I'd like you to do now is I'd like you to tell me what you think are the important things about fractions and... anything important or interesting that you've learnt this afternoon.... What what was the most interesting thing? Did [Simon:] Well [John:] you find any of it interesting?... Was it better than school or worse than school? [Simon:] Better [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Oh that's good [LAUGHTER]. And what was good about it then? [Simon:] Working them out and... then. [John:] Good don't forget if I go too quickly or if I give you too much say, Ooh hang on. and I probably won't stop I'll just tell you a different way. Probably tell you the same thing a different way. And Do you think you understand do you know what fractions are about?... How would suppose you have you got any brothers and sisters? [Simon:] One sister and me nanna. [John:] Okay and how old's she? [Simon:] Erm eight. [John:] Eight so if you had to explain to her about fractions, how could you tell her about what's what is it all [Simon:] Er [John:] about this fractions? [Simon:] It's the same if you're erm erm tell her the take aways and how many twelfths in like a whole and stuff like that. [John:] So it's all about sharing things out and it gets into this sort of fractions when we get when there's not enough to go round and we have to start cutting things up cutting the pizza up. Okay erm now have you got any work to do during the holiday any homework [Simon:] No. [John:] or schoolwork? None okay... do you think the fractions were more interesting than erm what numbers add up to make ten? [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And more interesting than tables. [Simon:] Yeah [LAUGHTER]. [John:] Yeah oh definitely hey. Well sometimes when I was asking you things like erm... say if I asked you how many quarters to make a whole one? How many quarters make a whole one?... [Simon:] Four. [John:] Four good. And for every quarter we need three twelfths so we need four lots of three twelfths how many twelfths to make a whole one?... [Simon:] Three erm... [John:] Right now if you know your tables if you knew three fours or four threes it'd be a lot easier wouldn't it. Now the trouble with fractions is if you don't know your tables it can be you can work it out you could get there but it'll take a long time if you do know your tables you just go, Yeah three fours are twelve. Four threes twelve. straight away like that. If you don't know them it's going to take you a long time. Now if you're doing fractions with the others and they know their tables what's going to happen?... [Simon:] I'm gonna be slower than them. [John:] They're going to keep being first all the time and you'll be thinking, Hang on hang on I haven't worked that out. You know you can do it you can do the fractions and once you've turned it into twelfths you can do it. But you're going to be finding out they're all rushing off ahead and you haven't worked out how many twelfths there are in two thirds or things like that. Once you work it out you can do it but you need your tables to do that. So I'll get some tables for you for next time erm if [Simon:] Will I need to erm buy a maths book or anything to write in? [John:] No have you got any any sort of pad like this will do anything to write in. But I do want you to write some things for next time. Erm have you got a have you got pad or anything? [Simon:] Yeah I've got got got this little book in here. [John:] Okay.... [Simon:] ... [John:] Right well the first thing I'd like to have you got counters or have you got a [Simon:] Counters? [John:] a big jar with pennies in or anything like that? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] You have that's good. If you get just pennies out right. If you'd like to make a a little note of what I want you to do. I'll tell you what it I I want you to do first and then you can write it down. I want you to get ooh... start of with twelve pennies okay. Twelve pennies... and then use them you know the way we were working out things like three times four makes twelve.... Set them out like this okay so that's three fours or four threes make twelve okay. How else could we make twelve? We could make two sixes or six twos. twelve. I'd like you to play with that and just with twelve pennies until you've found all the ways of arranging them like that. So they can show what two numbers multiply together to make twelve. Then I'd like you to try thirty six. [Simon:] Thirty six. [John:] Maybe maybe twenty four first okay. So try twelve pennies and find all the numbers that will multiply together to make twelve and one you mentioned earlier which was very good cos a lot of people forget it was just twelve ones or one twelve. Okay so try it with twelve first of all and then try it with twenty four and see all sorts of numbers that will make twenty four. So you could try it like this if we had twenty four we could see what happens if you make them into twos? Would that work? Yes that would work. What happened if you make them into threes? How many lots of three would you make? You might find it works you might find you've got some left over in which case it doesn't work you can't make sets of three out of them. And then try fours and fives and sixes. Do you think fives would work with twenty four? [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Your five times table always end in a in what? [Simon:] Five. [John:] Or a nought don't they? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Does twenty four end in a five or a nought? [Simon:] No. Ends in a four. [John:] No so it wouldn't so it wouldn't work wouldn't work with the fives. So you try it with the sixes see if they work try it with the sevens try it with the eights see what works. And find all the just just play with them and find out all the things and write down your answers. What numbers would multiply together to make twelve? What numbers would multiply together to make twenty four? and then try it again for thirty six okay. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So if you like to write that one down. And then if you've done that by next time got all them all written down and you're quite happy and you want to go on and do some more try it with sixty pennies. [Simon:] Sixty. [John:] Sixty pennies okay. Now have you had your tea yet? [Simon:] No. [John:] Have you just come in from school. What time do you get in [Simon:] No I came home at half two today. [John:] Cos you'd finished early did you? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay... so you'd had a bit of a break that's good. Erm the other thing I'd like you to do is adding up all all the numbers that make ten. Okay do you want to make a note of that and do you remember how we did it? [Simon:] Erm yeah erm [John:] You could do it with your coins again if you like. So... we started with five add five didn't we? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Cos that was the first one that you know. Five add five makes ten. What did we do then? [Simon:] Mm.... We we took one out of there that made s six [John:] Six add. [Simon:] Six add four makes [John:] Right. Six add four makes ten. And what would four ad six make? [Simon:] S ten. [John:] Right so you worked out that you've only got to learn half of them. Don't want to I want you to learn things but there's no point in learning everything twice is there or learning more than you need to at the moment. Just learn we'll try and find some easy ways for you to learn it erm cos I think you're a good learner you've learnt a lot today haven't you? [tape ends]

[John:] Er I've got two I've just just been two schoolkids who are not doing very well and they the end of term they've you know the teacher's said they're sort of very far behind and they need to do some work during the holidays. Now normally over each break there's not that much there's I've had a few students who say they want lessons through the holiday cut normally not that much but this [Simon:] Mm. [John:] this holiday everyone's saying, Ooh yeah I need some more lessons you know. I'm going away on Monday so I haven't allowed for all this [LAUGHTER] so I'm trying to [] [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] rearrange everything to fit them it. Let's have a look at [Simon:] This week. [John:] then. [Simon:] Yeah this is what wanna I I just got onto like the first lesson of it. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Erm notes you see they were just er exercise that we done out of the book. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Erm that was week eight we started on that yeah. [John:] You're okay on trig aren't you? [Simon:] N n no this is one [John:] No? [Simon:] no this is erm where bearings and that come into it [John:] Mm. [Simon:] I sort of was a bit lost on me trig so that's really what I want to get to go through a bit of trig. [John:] Right okay so are you happy with sine cos tan? You know which one's which and how to sort them out. [Simon:] I could do with it going over. [John:] Okay. These they'll be on the front of the paper. Erm you'll have sine you'll probably have a triangle with A B C marked on it. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And it's say sine is A over B or something. The best thing to do with that are you you're more used to erm... You're more used to opposite over adjacent and things like that aren't you. Or [Simon:] Yeah well we what I normally think you see is when we've got ninety degrees there [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] that's the opposite. The hypotenuse is the long one. [John:] Right. [Simon:] And that's the adjacent. [John:] Okay so [Simon:] Is that in every case? [John:] Easy way to sort them out this with with trig or with Pythagoras you're only working with a right angles triangle. So find the right angle which is usually pretty obvious and the side opposite that the longest side is the hypotenuse which is a long word. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So it's the long side. Okay? [Simon:] So the longest side is [John:] So [Simon:] the hypotenuse. [John:] The longest side the biggest side is always opposite the biggest angle. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] That's the hypotenuse. And then depends on which angle we're working with. Well if we're working with this one down here okay let's say that's forty degrees or something. The next easiest one to sort out after the hypotenuse is the one that's opposite. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So that's opposite the angle that we're working with. And the one that's left is [Simon:] The adjacent. [John:] must be the adjacent okay. So that'll work for every triangle. [Simon:] Yeah.... [John:] If you'd been working with this angle instead, we didn't know that and we're trying to work with this one or we say we're interested in this angle so that will be the opposite and this would be the adjacent. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And that's where the confusion comes in that it it varies depending on which angle. [Simon:] So just go over that again [John:] So first of all go for your right angle. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And the hypotenuse that's the biggest [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] that's always going to [Simon:] Right. [John:] be true. The next thing to do is which angle am I working with? So this one you're working with that thirty five degrees. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] This is the angle we're interested in [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] so if we're going to work out sine tan or cos of this angle that's its opposite [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and the one left is the adjacent. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Same with all of these. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Now if we were looking at these the other way up right if somebody gave you the triangle [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and they said I want to work out this angle. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Well there's you right angle that's still the hypotenuse which one would be the opposite now if we're dealing with with this angle? [Simon:] Er for dealing with that a that'd be the opposite yeah [John:] That's it that's opposite and the one left is [Simon:] Adjacent. [John:] Okay same [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] if we were working with that. So the opposite is the one opposite the angle. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Just write that down for us. So it's the one opposite the angle. [John:] first of all... go for the right angle sort out the hypotenuse okay. And then work out which angle [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] you're going to deal with. [Simon:] Right.... [John:] Which angle has the... sine cos or tan... right and then that's two if you like two A work out the angle and then two B work out which is the opposite. [Simon:] Mhm. The opposite is always opposite the [John:] Opposite the angle. [Simon:] angle yeah. [John:] Okay. Work out the opposite and then three the adjacent sorts itself out then. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] The adjacent is the one left over. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] That'll work for that'll work every time. [Simon:] Right. [John:] So you won't you know you know you won't be, [Simon:] Mm. [John:] Ah now which one am I supposed to be using here? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Okay. [John:] So front of your sheet you will have things like sine is A over B or things like that just write on the front of your sheet and convert it so that you've got sine is equal to what do you know what sine is?... [Simon:] Sine erm... no I should really brush up on it. I mean I I know it's so c [John:] mixed up. It doesn't matter cos it'll be there. [Simon:] so c so something [John:] Silly old cow or something like that some people remember it. [Simon:] Yeah er. [John:] So. [Simon:] So ca [John:] I'll just get this. [Simon:] in one of these. [John:] I think you had it near the front of your notes actually. [Simon:] Yeah.... Let's see Pythagoras on this first one no. [John:] No. [Simon:] I It'll be on one of these.... See I do I get them right in the class [John:] Good. [Simon:] but er it tends to go a bit out of your head. [John:] Right. Let's have a look at another one at Pythagoras as well as. [Simon:] there was a I mean I've also been given a couple of ways to remember it but [John:] Right you can't remember [LAUGHTER] the ways to remember it []. [Simon:] I've got it written down somewhere but.... There you are, SOH SOH CAH TOA. [John:] Okay [Simon:] Japanese isn't it SOH CAH TOA. [John:] Okay so what would what would sine be from that then?... [Simon:] What would the sine be right so erm which one are we on. [John:] So that's the first one sine [Simon:] The sine is the opposite over the hypotenuse. [John:] Good. And the cos? [Simon:] Is the adjacent over the hypotenuse. [John:] Yep and tan? [Simon:] Is the opposite over the adjacent. [John:] Okay.... But they they will be on the front of your sheet. They won't be written like that in terms of opposite [Simon:] Not even with this new change that's happening. [John:] Well at the moment they're putting them as just label the sides A B C and they'll say [Simon:] Mm. [John:] sine is A over B [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] cos is C over B. [Simon:] Right. [John:] like that. Erm it's just that it throws you a bit if you've learnt them that way. So [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] just label the triangle that they've got opposite over... opposite and hypotenuse and adjacent and translate what they've got written there and use those. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So if we just do one. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Erm [Simon:] Cos I wouldn't mind doing one working out with the with the [John:] Right. [Simon:] Just just so I can er brush up on. [John:] So there's a triangle and we're interested in this angle here is forty degrees say. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Okay so [Simon:] Right all have gotta add up to a hundred and eighty hasn't it. [John:] Right so if you'd like to label that triangle. [Simon:] Label it right erm this' d be the opposite. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] This' d be the... hypotenuse and this' d be the... adjacent. [John:] That's it right okay. So [Simon:] That'd be ninety. [John:] That's the ninety. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Which would [John:] So we know that erm we're standing let's say we're standing a hundred and twenty metres [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] away from the bottom of this building. Right now we know that the angle from where we are up to the top is forty degrees. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Right. How would you work out the height of the building? [Simon:] I don't know. [John:] Erm well let's let's call it H or call it opp if you like. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] The height of the building is opp. Now can you see any of these [Simon:] Oh I see. So you want to find the height [John:] Right. [Simon:] and you're calling it opp. [John:] Right. [Simon:] So... it's going to be the cosine isn't it. [John:] Which one's got the opposite... and which which two sides which o [Simon:] Because that hasn't got the opposite. [John:] which ones do we which one do we know? [Simon:] Oh I see. Yeah we know the adjacent. [John:] Right we know the adjacent. [Simon:] And we know the opposite. [John:] And we're trying to find out the opp so we want something that ties up opp and adjacent. Which one is that? [Simon:] Tangent. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Right. [John:] So we've got tan forty degrees equals opp over adjacent which is equal to well we don't know opp so we'll just leave it as opp over a hundred and twenty. Okay so if you find the tan of forty degrees. [Simon:] Now how do I do that do I just [John:] Oh okay you just put forty degrees in. [Simon:] Forty f forty. [John:] And then press tan. [Simon:] And then the equals. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] Do I press that no makes no difference. That's nought point eight three nine one. [John:] Okay leave leave that in. So it's nought point eight three nine etcetera [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] okay and we've got opposite over a hundred and twenty at the moment and we want we just want opposite. So what would we do to both sides of the equation what would we do to that side to turn it into opposite instead of opposite divided by a hundred and twenty.... [Simon:] Don't know [John:] Right if think of a number any number you like [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] okay multiply it by ten and now divide it by ten. Back to the number you thought of [Simon:] Ten. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] think of a number multiply it by two now divide it by two back to the number you though of. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So think of some number right divide it by a hundred and twenty now we want to get it back to the number we first thought of so what [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] would we multiply it by.... We thought of some number divided by one twenty now we want it go back to the number we thought of. [Simon:] Er what would you make it one twenty? [John:] So that's it. We just multiply it by one twenty now. any number you like divided by one twenty then multiplied by one twenty comes back to that number. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So that will just cancel out and we'll have that. Now we do it to one side of the equation so there that's one twenty write it out again nought point eight three nine etcetera is equal to opposite divided by a hundred and twenty. multiply that side by a hundred and twenty so we must do the same on the other side of the equation. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Right so we multiply this by a hundred and twenty. [Simon:] So what if I just go. [John:] Times it. [Simon:] Times one two O [John:] Okay. [Simon:] equals one hundred point six nine. [John:] So we've got on this side one hundred point [Simon:] Six nine. [John:] six nine [whispering] equals opp []. [Simon:] So that's the height. [John:] So the height is a hundred point six nine metres. Now you'll then have to look and see if they tell you to give it to the nearest metre or the nearest maybe the nearest maybe the nearest point one of a metre or three significant figures or three decimal places. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And make sure that you give it the way they want. Now what would that be to the nearest metre? [Simon:] A hundred. [John:] Would it? [Simon:] No a hundred and one. [John:] Right okay watch that watch the rounding if it's [Simon:] Mm. [John:] point five or more you round up. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So... opposite is equal to the the height. Of the building which is equal to a hundred and one metres to the nearest metre. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Now if there'd been I don't know the length of this or something. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Then you'd use it's what you do is you work out which ones do we know? Well we know [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] the angle and we know that so how can we it up [Simon:] So this slightly different than looking for angles isn't it. Cos say I was looking for angles and that would've just been fifty up here wouldn't it. [John:] Right that would be fifty. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So let's do [Simon:] But then you wouldn't need the erm Pythagoras's theory would you for that. [John:] If we've got if we've got the angle usually we g going to use trig. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] If we've got two side but we haven't got an angle then we'll just use Pythagoras. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Okay. Have a look at this the other way up. We didn't know that angle but we [Simon:] Mhm yeah. [John:] knew this one was fifty. Right well this time [Simon:] We want that'll become the [John:] We'll get [Simon:] opposite. [John:] we'll get that's the that's going to be the opposite [Simon:] That'd be the [John:] that's still the hypotenuse that never changes. But this one would be the opposite and this one now would be the [Simon:] ad adjacent. [John:] Okay. that's the one looking at fifty degrees. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So this time what do we know? Well we know the opposite and we're trying to find the adjacent. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So which one of these uses opposite and adjacent? [Simon:] Tan. [John:] So it'll be tan again but his time we'll have tan fifty is equal to one twenty over the adjacent which is what we're trying to find.... [Simon:] Right. [John:] Multiply both sides by adjacent. So on this side we get adjacent. [Simon:] We've got fifty tan haven't we. Fifty tan [John:] Okay. [Simon:] that's one point ni one nine. [John:] One point one nine. [Simon:] Nine. [John:] Okay equals a hundred and twenty over adjacent now multiply both by adjacent. Adjacent times one point one nine is equal to a hundred and twenty. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] We multiply adjacent there and adjacent here. Now divide both sides by one point one nine. Adjacent times one point one nine over one point one nine equals a hundred and twenty over over one point one nine. Okay? [Simon:] Mhm.... [John:] They cancel out so the adjacent is going to be that. So if you do if you just press ah [Simon:] One two O [John:] Divided by [Simon:] divided by one point nine [John:] Now if you just put in fifty. [Simon:] Divided by fifty? [John:] put fifty and then tan and now equals. Now we've divided it by the tan of fifty because you see [Simon:] Well that comes to a hundred and sixty nine. [John:] if you round up half way through the way you were going to do then [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] and just call it one point one nine [Simon:] Mm. [John:] you lose quite a bit of accuracy. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So again that comes to a hundred point six nine. So it doesn't matter which way you do it and which way round you do it [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and which angle we work with it still come to the same thing. So you can [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] do it either way. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And usually you'll work with the angle that you've been given rather [Simon:] Mm. [John:] than working out the other one. So some of them will be given and some of them won't and you'll work out which ones can I fit in here opposite adjacent or that. Now on is that okay? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Or do you think [Simon:] Well [John:] could do with another one? [Simon:] Yeah I could do with another one I think. [John:] Okay. Er let's see if we've got. [Simon:] You see these ones I suppose [John:] Let's pick one out of there then. [Simon:] Erm all he's been doing here is getting me to find the sides. See opposite hypotenuse adjacent. Opposite adjacent this is what you've been talking about the a the angle isn't it. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] It's only just dawned on me now how he's got to that. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Hypotenuse is the longest side and the opposite is opposite to the [John:] Angle. [Simon:] angle. [John:] and the adjacent is the one left over. [Simon:] Which makes that the adjacent. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And you've got these written in here sine [Simon:] Mm. [John:] cos and tan. [Simon:] We've been using the words SOH CAH TOA to help remember these. [reading] Each angle has its own unique sine cosine or tangent. This means they can be stored in a scientific calculator. [] Er [John:] They're usually not stored they're calculated inside the calculator. The calculator [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] has a little program that goes chuntering away [Simon:] Mm. [John:] working it out. [Simon:] Mm. Oh there are silly old Howard Kendal and his team of amateurs.... [John:] Okay can can you remember that? [Simon:] What. [John:] Silly old Howard Kendal and his team of amateurs. [Simon:] Er the maths teacher in school didn't like that cos he's an Everton supporter. [John:] Ooh. [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] [LAUGHTER] [John:] Right can you remember that?... As I say it will be on the front of the sheet so you can [Simon:] I'd probably remember that easier to be honest SOH CAH TOA. [John:] Mm SOH CAH TOA.... [Simon:] I mean... having found you know this sine is the opposite over the hypotenuse tan is basically what you've got to find I suppose is which two sides of the triangle you're using. [John:] That's it. [Simon:] Yeah. And so you'll look for sort of these two combinations to find out whether it'll be a tangent a cosine or a sine. [John:] Exactly that's it [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] that that's all there is to it. What sides have I got here? Right and let's say in this one we had opposite and adjacent so we said where does that come there it is opposite and adjacent so it'll be tan. Now if it had been opposite and hypotenuse which one would you have used? [Simon:] It would have been sine. [John:] And if you'd had adjacent and hypotenuse? [Simon:] It would've been cosine. [John:] That's it [Simon:] Mm. [John:] That's that's that's all there is [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] to it. Once you've sort of spotted that which you have you you [Simon:] Mm. [John:] shouldn't have any trouble at all. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So let's just try one to sort that out. Erm here y'are we've got a lad with a kite it's fixed on the ground well let's say let's say it's fixed on the ground first of all and erm we're trying to find out how high it is and it's directly over this point which is erm... and we don't we don't know. We know it's at an angle of ooh let's use forty degrees again. The kite string is making an angle of forty degrees there and it's got a hundred metres of the line payed out. And he wants to know how high it is. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So the first thing is what what's the first thing you do? [Simon:] Find the sides. [John:] Okay so the first thing to go in which is pretty obvious. That's it. [Simon:] Which would make this the opposite [John:] Right. [Simon:] This the adjacent and this the [John:] Which is the one you really did first isn't it. [Simon:] Hyp what [John:] In fact you really did the hypotenuse first I think [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] cos you put the right angle in you though right [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Okay so what do we know and what are we trying to find out? [Simon:] Well we know we've got an angle of forty degrees [John:] Okay. [Simon:] Erm a hundred metres we want to find the height. So we want to find the opposite. [John:] Right and what do we know which of the other sides do we know? [Simon:] The adjacent. [John:] Mm we don't know that do we? [Simon:] No. Oh er the hypotenuse is at forty. [John:] That's that's the hundred metres that's the length of his string. There's his kite on the end of that. [Simon:] Mhm.... [John:] Okay there's a hundred metres of string out so you know [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] the hypotenuse. So we've got opposite and hypotenuse hypotenuse and opposite which one ties those up? [Simon:] The hypotenuse and the opposite erm [John:] Have a have a look cos they will be on the sheet. [Simon:] Okay. Well it's opposite over hypotenuse is sine. [John:] Right so just write the equation as you've got it there sine equals opposite over hypotenuse. So all [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] you need to write is sine of sine of forty... equals what? [Simon:] Equals the opposite over the hypotenuse. Which is equal to... a hundred? [John:] Well what's the opposite? We don't know that's the one we're trying to find out so we just put [Simon:] We don't know do we yeah you wouldn't put ninety degrees would you we don't know. [John:] No opposite that angle [Simon:] Yeah we don't know we want the height. [John:] That side so okay it's just [Simon:] And [John:] just put so just write opp. And we'll find it later. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And the hypotenuse is [Simon:] A hundred. [John:] Yeah. [Simon:] Right. [John:] So if you calculate the sine of a hundred of forty degrees now and leave it in the calculator. [Simon:] for doing that you go forty [John:] That's it forty and then sine.... [Simon:] helps if I put the calculator four O [John:] Sine. [Simon:] sine and you don't need to put press the equals do you do it's nought point six four two. [John:] So we've got nought point six four etcetera [Simon:] Mm. [John:] is equal to opposite divided by a hundred. Well we don't want opposite divided by a hundred we want just opposite. So what would we multiply this thing by to turn it into just opposite? [Simon:] [yawning] A hundred. [] [John:] That's it.... So we multiply by a hundred on that side so we must multiply by a hundred by a hundred on the other side to keep [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] it balanced. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] What's a hundred times that come to? [Simon:] so I'll go times one nought nought equals sixty four point two. [John:] Sixty four point [Simon:] two seven [John:] Which is nearer point three. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Sixty four point two seven nine [Simon:] Eight seven eig eight. [John:] Oh sorry two seven eight seven six. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Two seven eight seven six etcetera is equal to That's fine so that's opposite. And it depends on what they want if they want it to three decimal places with this [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] they probably want it to about the nearest metre [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] how high is it to the nearest metre. So what would that be to the nearest metre? [Simon:] it'd be sixty four wouldn't it. [John:] Excellent sixty four metres is equal to the opposite [Simon:] Right. [John:] height. [Simon:] Now can we [John:] To the nearest metre. Okay. [Simon:] Erm... It might be this might be the paper actually no I don't think it is. I don't think it's the one I was thinking of. Erm what was I thinking of. Yeah could we do number twelve? [John:] Okay. [Simon:] I mean I've not done it before this is [John:] Right. [Simon:] a paper that I. [John:] A straight section of motorway motorway... midway between P and Q. So this is this is drawing a scale diagram. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] This this isn't calculating it using sine and cos or anything. [Simon:] Oh isn't it oh well. [John:] But they haven't It looks as if it's a right angle there [Simon:] Mm. [John:] It might not be. You can't take it that it is you have to draw your scale diagram. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Now how would you draw this diagram? [Simon:] I haven't read read the question so [John:] Okay. [Simon:] [reading] The diagram below shows a s straight section of motorway [] [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] [reading] nine hundred metres long P to Q is nine hundred metres long. And a church C which is seven hundred metres from P [] [John:] Right. [Simon:] [reading] and five hundred metres from Q. B is a bridge over the motorway midway between P and Q. [] [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] [reading] Using a scale a one centimetre representing a hundred metres [] So that'll be nine centimetres. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Draw round like the point P. That'd be nine centimetres erm five centimetres and... seven centimetres. [John:] Okay. So how would you go about doing that diagram? [Simon:] I'd erm I wouldn't have thought of using a compass but you're right aren't you. [John:] Okay have you do you. [Simon:] Do you want a ruler? I've got one somewhere.... [John:] Okay so you decided on your scale and you decided it was nine centimetres along there okay and... f the way to do it fairly accurately is just draw a line that's a bit longer than nine. [Simon:] Mhm.... [John:] And the measure off nine on it. Give yourself a starting place get the zero on that nicely [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] and then nine. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Now I've done the hard bit there straight line. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] What are we going to do about this church how are you going to find out where that church C is? [Simon:] Erm... well it's seven centimetres [John:] Okay. [Simon:] If I just put a point then I measured up to there [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] And see if I got five centimetres five. [John:] So [Simon:] Just say if that was seven and mm er that'd end up seven. I don't know? Er maybe I should do it on graph paper. [John:] No cos your graph paper wouldn't show you the s at an angle. [Simon:] No. [John:] You could do it with two rulers couldn't you. If you put one ruler on here and kept sliding them about until it was [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] seven from there and five from there. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] But there's a much easier way of doing it. [Simon:] Right what what is it? [John:] Well use your compass and just draw... that's P show me all the points that are seven hundred metres from P. Draw the draw the path of all the points that are seven hundred metres from P. [Simon:] an idea here [John:] Hey. [Simon:] that there so er that's seven hundred right. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] And this is P. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Right. So if we sort of went like that [John:] Okay. [Simon:] that's the that's the path isn't it. [John:] Right. [Simon:] And if we set this on five. [John:] Brilliant that's it okay you've got it. [Simon:] Like that and set it on Q. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Right where it meets which is there. [John:] That's it. So anywhere along there is seven... from P anywhere along this one is five from Q. And that place where they meet [Simon:] Should be [John:] five from Q and seven form P. [Simon:] Should be just right then shouldn't it. Yeah so we'll go simple when you know how innit. [LAUGHTER] [John:] It's like a lot of things if you if you do know how to do them you think what's the problem if you haven't [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] done them before Oh lovely thanks very much. Have you had your hair cut then? [speaker001:] Yes [LAUGHTER] Oh you don't like it do you? [LAUGHTER] [John:] I've I've no comment no comment. [LAUGHTER] No I I prefer longer hair for women [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Yeah yeah my wife's always saying she's going to have her hair cut [LAUGHTER] [Simon:] Yeah [LAUGHTER] yeah. [John:] And then measure that angle it says. [Simon:] Right now... where's where's the question oh here it is up here isn't it.... [John:] use that one or another one? [Simon:] Now how do you measure an angle?... I'm not used to using this on a circle.... Ah hang on [John:] Right. [Simon:] you gotta get it somewhere like that haven't you. [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] Or has it gotta be on this line here? [John:] Well the angle we're measuring is this one here what angle are we going to measure? Find the angle P C Q so.... P C Q so we're measuring this angle here. It looks very much like a right angle. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So we need this on one of the lines... yeah. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And that little cross sometimes it's a little hole on the corner on the angle itself. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Now we can measure it and it's not [Simon:] Ninety. [John:] not ninety it's [Simon:] Eighty five. [John:] What have we got have a look I mean we don't know that we've draw this completely accurately. Looks about ninety four. [Simon:] Yeah right. [John:] Right. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Ninety four. How could we check if it is actually ninety and we've got it wrong. That was seven wasn't it and this was er sorry that was nine that was nine [Simon:] No that was nine, that was seven and this was five. [John:] That's seven and that's five. How could we check if that was if that's really supposed to be ninety and we've and the drawing's not quite right. Cos that line you've drawn there. [Simon:] It's just slightly off yeah. [John:] Doesn't doesn't go to that point at all so that would make see how much difference that makes to the [Simon:] Mm. [John:] angle. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] So measure that angle again. Now it's looking like about ninety one. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Ninety two ninety one ninety two [Simon:] See and that's not quite on on that there. [John:] And that's not quite on so that would bring it a little bit it might be about ninety two or something it might [Simon:] Mm. [John:] be ninety. How can we check if it is ninety? [Simon:] Erm. [John:] From the numbers we've got there. [Simon:] By using one of the Pythagoras's theorem. [John:] Okay good. So if that if that's a right angle only if it's a right angle cos Pythagoras's theorem doesn't work if it's not then we've got the easy way to remember Pythagoras is... long equals medium plus short. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] I mean it's not just the long it's long squared equals medium squared plus short the the medium and the short sort of would add up to give the long. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] That's one way of thinking of it. So the long one squared... Does nine squared equal seven squared plus five squared. So what's nine squared? [Simon:] Nine nines is eighty one. [John:] Okay yeah and seven squared?... [Simon:] Erm... forty nine. [John:] Alright and five squared? [Simon:] Twenty five. [John:] Right. What's forty nine and twenty five come to? Well it doesn't [Simon:] Seventy four. [John:] it doesn't come to [Simon:] Seventy four. [John:] Yeah seventy four it doesn't come to eighty one. [Simon:] No. [John:] So it's not a right angle triangle. But you look at the diagram they've given you which is not exactly the scale and they do this quite a bit. See it's about like that it's a little bit... It's it's ninety and a tiny bit [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and you look at it and you think Ooh must be a right angle. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] And a lot of people answering that question will just assume it's a right angle [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] and they'll do that and sort of get very few marks on it so watch [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] that when you've got one that looks like a right angle and they [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] don't say it is. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] But that way for doing Pythagoras. Erm let's have a look at a couple using Pythagoras. Let's say we've got erm... this one is... If that's thirteen... and this one is... twelve right... mm with a bit of luck that should be a right angle ish. It's not exactly a right angle it's not drawn to scale. But that's a right angle... call it X or whatever you like. Want to find that side and we know that's thirteen centimetres and that's twelve centimetres and that's a right angle how would how would you go about finding that? [Simon:] And you want to find that side well... we get the right way wouldn't it let's see. That would sort of tell me that that was the hypotenuse and that was the adjacent. [John:] Right okay so that's the hypotenuse. [Simon:] Adjacent. [John:] Ah now you haven't got an adjacent or an opposite with Pythagoras. [Simon:] Oh no. [John:] You've got all you've got really you've got the hypotenuse but you don't need to bother with you just can call it the long one. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] And... remember your equation... long squared equals medium squared plus short squared. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Okay right which is the long one which is the longest one? Thirteen. [Simon:] Thirteen. [John:] So we get thirteen squared equals and what's the medium one? [Simon:] One three times one three equals one six nine. [John:] Okay what's the medium one. [Simon:] And the medium one is X. [John:] Is it? Mm. [Simon:] On no no sorry that's the short the medium one is twelve yeah. [John:] It doesn't matter if we get them the wrong way round it'll still work out. [Simon:] Which is a hundred and forty four. [John:] Plus the short one squared so [Simon:] And the short one is X. [John:] if we subtract twelve squared form each side. Thirteen squared minus twelve squared equals short squared. Okay. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So if you work out what thirteen squared minus twelve squared [Simon:] So it's a hundred and sixty nine minus a hundred and forty four isn't it. [John:] Mhm. [Simon:] Twenty four. [John:] Twenty? [Simon:] Twenty five. [John:] Right sounds okay [Simon:] Centimetres. [John:] That's what I that's what I got. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] equals short squared. [Simon:] So five is the short side. [John:] Five is equal to the short side. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] So that will be five centimetres. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Okay. [Simon:] So if you get on an exam something like that and they're and they're saying to you A to B is sixty mile to London. [John:] Mm. [Simon:] What's the bearing between London and Glasgow? [John:] Ah. [Simon:] Like how does it [John:] Okay so we'll fini we'll finish up with right angles first. If you're looking at triangles you're first thing you're looking at is has it got a right angle? Is there a right angle in it somewhere?... If it hasn't well you probably you've got problems. [Simon:] Mm. [John:] so that's your first one has it got a right angle? If it has yes we go do they give you an angle? Right let's say they do. Have they given you have they given you the length of two sides? Yeah. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Two lengths given yeah. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] If so you can use Pythagoras... which is long squared equals medium squared plus short squared. To find third side. Okay? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] If it isn't if you haven't got the two lengths given you've got you've got... one length plus one angle. That one angle is apart from the right angle. Right. [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] Apart from the.... So if you've got one length and one angle then depending on which one you've got you're going to use sine cos or tan... to find the side the length you want. [Simon:] Mhm. that's if you've got an angle and a length. [John:] A length and an angle you'll use the trig. [Simon:] Yeah but otherwise. [John:] You'll use Pythagoras. Right so if they give you two s two lengths to fine a third length the easiest way and the most accurate way is use Pythagoras. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] If they give you one length and an angle then you'd use either sine or cos or tan to find the other one. [Simon:] Right. [John:] Sometimes on this one they might give you erm two lengths and they might ask you to find an angle. [Simon:] Can we do one of them? [John:] Right er they might sometimes... so that's to find a side... and this actually comes off here. Right given two sides plus right angle [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Find an angle.... Again you'd use trig. [Simon:] Yeah. Right.... [John:] opposite not opposite but opposite page. [Simon:] Mhm.... [John:] So let's say we've got... a hill. And erm we know that we went along this hill and we went along... fifteen kilometres.... Okay? [Simon:] Yeah. [John:] And when we'd gone along fifteen kilometres we'd gone up by... four point eight metres. [Simon:] Mhm. [John:] Right what we want to find is how steep is the the hill we want to find that angle.... X degrees. How would you go about that? [Simon:] Erm [tape ends]