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summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

the team discussed the conceptual design and some specific details in this meeting . industrial designer talked about the components concept of industrial design , such as the different choice of energy and the different material of the remote control . the team would find out which one to use in the future . user interface designer gave the presentation about system design , mainly about programme design for different users and to help them use the device . then the team decided to discuss the marketing part at first , then discuss what to design . marketing talked about specific details found in the market survey . the team agreed to use fancier design , less buttons and focus on voice recognition . they would find out whether using lcd on remote controls was too expensive or not . team members agreed to use a voice commander and fixed charger , which would prevent the remote control getting lost . then the team talked about the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser .

summarize the discussion about the components concept of industrial design . </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

the team talked about using a battery on the remote control and discussed different types of energy , they would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy . as to the shape of the remote control , there should be a curve which would fit into users ' hands when they grab the remote control . they discussed material used to design the case of remote control , such as plastic or titanium , but they were still discussing which one should be used .

what did the team agree about kinetic battery when talking about the components concept of industrial design ? </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

the team could choose from the basic battery , kinetic battery and solar energy . solar energy would not work in a cluttered environment . kinetic battery was the one people could recharge by themselves . the team would find out if the kinetic metal was sufficient to provide enough energy .

what did team members say about the titanium case when talking about the components concept of industrial design ? </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

titanium case was trendy and modern . users would be happy with it . but the team was still not very sure about the material of the case .

summarize the discussion about specific details connected with market interests . </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

the team discussed a marketing survey about remote controls . they agreed to design remote controls with more fancy outlook and less buttons . the remote control should be easier to find and less complicated so users take less time to learn the functionality of it and the team discussed how to implement this function . they also talked about voice recognition and the scroller button . then they agreed to design a child lock . users could open child lock by pressing the button with some code . at last they discussed the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser . they decided to put numbers and words in the vocabulary . but they realized that it would be a challenge to make the speech recogniser distinguish between different voices and deal with noises and they would keep on discussing it .

what did the team decide on how to make the remote control easier to find when discussing specific details connected with market interests ? </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

the team decided that the remote control would beep if it got lost . also , the remote control would be put on the fixed charger if users did not use it , so it would be hard to get lost .

what did industrial designer propose when discussing the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser when discussing specific details connected with market interests ? </s> project manager: so we come to the third meetings . i have good . industrial designer: project manager: um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talk about the conceptual design . so we will talk about some specific details . industrial designer: okay so i think i will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh i 'm participant two . project manager: this industrial designer: components design . project manager: industrial designer: okay so uh the first thing uh i have done is to to made a review together with the uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . so for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kinetic um well uh kinetic uh technique to to store the energy . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: we also um we also can put a regular battery in the in the remote control . now project manager: uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . but if we use battery industrial designer: yeah b uh f well uh i meant uh by by battery i meant uh i will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh i did n't fou we did n't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . so uh it 's a point to discuss . then uh the case material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . but uh well it 's not a a re uh well a real issue for the from the technical uh point of view . concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . so what i have f found is that i think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way to provide energy because i think solar energy wi wo n't work in a cluttered uh uh environment . user interface: mm . industrial designer: so um so i think we can start with these two main things . for the case uh well uh i think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it 's trendy and it 's uh it 's uh well it 's modern and uh user are are are mm will be uh very happy to have a a a nice remote . for the interface uh i think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip that are uh well cheaper . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and s so uh we can move to the next slide . user interface: sorry . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: what is this single curved what does it mean ? industrial designer: well uh uh i i it 's uh it 's the the shape of the um of the remote . user interface: so it 's it 's not industrial designer: you you will have the well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the user interface: yo l yeah . when you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold . industrial designer: yeah . it 's more confog f comfortable that if these uh it 's completely flat . user interface: okay . yeah . and the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it does n't matter ? industrial designer: yeah the um that 's the point . the kinetic one is uh y you can recharge uh by the um user interface: that that 's what it means by kinetic . industrial designer: yeah and by well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well the remote will uh accumulate energy . user interface: okay . mm-hmm . okay . industrial designer: but i d i do n't know it 's if it is feasible because i do n't know if yet if if the user will move enough to provide the remote um all the necessary energy . user interface: mm . mm . okay . yeah . yeah . we we might check with our r_ and d_ department to see if they have this product ready for market . industrial designer: yeah . and yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . so and uh that 's uh that summarize well what i have said . user interface: mm mm . wha industrial designer: so uh you 're right we can uh see in our uh r_ and d_ uh if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy . user interface: ah the department . mm . industrial designer: that 's it . user interface: uh so i um keep in touch with the r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: oh yeah user interface: industrial designer: i take care , it 's all right . user interface: so the titanium case is the normal case that i 'll show you some pictures that i have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not . industrial designer: all right . yeah . user interface: 'cause i am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . there 's another point i want to make , is that the uh well you 've seen them i le na my presentation that um i point out some why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can use yeah . yeah , maybe n industrial designer: project manager: we will , okay . user interface: project manager: three . user interface: yeah . so the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heard or otherwise perceived by the human user project manager: user interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . so you s this gives you the ways to input data and we have uh we are more we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . the idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily when you look at the symbols you understand what it is doing . project manager: what 's the function of this button . user interface: yeah . yeah . so . project manager: i think it makes the the interface really user interface: ea easy to use . so next one . project manager: graphical user interface . user interface: function five . so i can use the button , the mouse maybe . project manager: a graphical user interface emphasise the use of pictures . user interface: yeah . so next line . so the here are some examples . so they cluster the buttons together . they group them into col they colour them and uh they have different forms as well . mm but this interface are kind of confusing . uh basically there are too many buttons . right . next one . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so some people are propose voice recognition and so ah by the way i receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine for this by a company industrial designer: user interface: when you tell the you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . so i just got an email saying that . industrial designer: mm-hmm mm mm . user interface: and it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly . industrial designer: yeah fine . user interface: the next one . mm so somebody some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the l_c_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a lcd screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , you can use that as real so so that could be an option as well . touch screen , i mean . project manager: yeah . user interface: next one . and some people propose a scroll button . integrated with push buttons or you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . like the one we have here . uh , next one . so mm project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: so there are a few aspects that i collected here . so s basically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . and uh mm yeah yeah . and then they also secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . so but we do n't have to integrate all these complicated features . i 'm just saying that the currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f customisable for different people . yeah , so that 's the point . the next one . and uh you see this is the one where you have the protection cover . mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . and for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . so the adults might wan na have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: s a good idea . user interface: the next one . industrial designer: user interface: so this guy this is another company that provides big buttons . at i see that that is useful for old people and then you do n't get it lost . but for our product we do n't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and you can call your remote controller if you do n't know where it is . industrial designer: user interface: tv remote controller where are you ? project manager: user interface: and then , he will beeps and to say that i am here , for example . industrial designer: project manager: we should include speech synthesis in this case , no ? user interface: is it possible ? industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: uh ? industrial designer: yeah but uh as norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . and uh , this is another one where you can uh the the the part that 's a v_ standing for the volume . so there 's a up arrow and a down arrow . but you the see that in the v_ , the v_ appears to be the down arrow on the top on the top up arrow if you project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: up arrow there 's a v_ like as as if it 's turning down so it 's confusing interface , so i wan na avoid this kind of thing in the design . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: and here are is uh here is a s short summary that i summary that i compiled after the findings i found . big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . and uh user customisable is important and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . yeah . so we have many concepts there industrial designer: hmm . user interface: but we have to choose later on which ones are important to be used . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and basically uh industrial designer: well i i think you it 's it 's it 's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilities user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the tv screen i do n't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remote project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that , user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uh makes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so . user interface: mm . okay . project manager: or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control and we should have just a button like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the tv . industrial designer: yeah . that 's a good idea . marketing: industrial designer: to have a help button . user interface: a help button . project manager: yeah . user interface: so you are display on the screen . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: on tv tv screen . user interface: so on the tv screen . industrial designer: on the tv screen . on the tv screen the uh how to use your remote . project manager: so just you push the button user interface: okay . okay . okay . project manager: and we will marketing: oh . user interface: so that eliminates all the complicated documentation , project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . so wi marketing: but people are often enough looking at the help , project manager: if the if marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff . project manager: no in the case where they need help , in the case where they need help . industrial designer: uh yeah . marketing: it 's a psychology . industrial designer: in a marketing point of view . marketing: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: and let us see what the market demands . project manager: yeah . marketing: we could just go to my presentation . industrial designer: but uh wel well i think project manager: it 's just for user customizable , for kids or old people . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: mm . project manager: so marketing: i mean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the project manager: so it 's the same marketing: same remote with some project manager: can be used by both kids and old people . marketing: both yeah . user interface: mm . well uh what i s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i it could be a cube , industrial designer: user interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , you turn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . project manager: maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l they like to user interface: small industrial designer: uh well . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: so le le let 's see what uh what people want . user interface: let 's see the market demand . project manager: marketing: and then we can decide what what we can yeah . user interface: what what market yes yes . project manager: marketing: so we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . and we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . uh we also have some prizes for the most creative solutions . and we found the following solutions which we could which would be helpful for our design . so seventy percent of the users , they find their remote controls very ugly , they do n't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . and eighty percent of the people they are always l i mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would look fancy . and the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . and seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot . project manager: yeah . marketing: and fifty percent say they use only ten percent of the buttons , project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they 're not used most of the times . user interface: yeah . yes . marketing: so this were the findings which we found . and also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . most of fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lost somewhere in the room and people are always searching for them rather than watching the tv . user interface: yeah . marketing: and by the time they found the remote control the program is finished . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so they 're frustrated a lot user interface: marketing: and um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn the functionality of it . user interface: mm . industrial designer: mm , the functionalities yeah . marketing: so you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes and thirty four percent they say that it 's quite difficult to learn if it 's too complex . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations i think this should be the solution for them . we should have an lcd on the rem remote control . user interface: oh . industrial designer: well mm w well i i i do n't really see the advantage of having uh lcd on the on the remote control if we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen . user interface: big screen . industrial designer: it 's marketing: mm-hmm ? industrial designer: yeah of course it 's fancy trendy and so on but it 's it 's expensive to produce and it 's not really marketing: i mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so if we have a lcd on the remote , rather than looking onto the tv you just look into a remote and navigate it . it 's the same menu as we have saw that ipod remote control . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: mm . the thing marketing: we just play around industrial designer: yeah but when you play with the ipod you do n't have a big screen in front of you , s project manager: you can use this screen instead of the big se screen , user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: instead of use the yeah . user interface: if you re-use the existing screen , we element eliminate the lcd , after all the lcd just to display project manager: hmm . user interface: and if you have the colourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the lcd , marketing: yeah . user interface: maybe even better . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so marketing: i mean this were the points which we got from the market demands . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . yeah yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so industrial designer: so i th i i well i think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uh user interface: yeah . more on a fancy design . marketing: yeah that 's fine . industrial designer: on the speech recognition if the technology is available marketing: yeah . i mean that 's user interface: yeah . industrial designer: but well i think lcd will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for not so big results . user interface: mm . remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but yeah . user interface: yeah . so i is marketing: uh yeah we have uh project manager: user interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an lcd will cost and then we 'll decide again . marketing: i mean that should be found out by the industrial designers . project manager: industrial designer: user interface: uh maybe you can find out the price and tell us next time . is i if i industrial designer: so price of uh lcd display . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and marketing: and it 's always good to have an voice recognition for the remote controls . user interface: yeah . and also the cost for the speech recognition . project manager: mm . it 's for user interface: ask our r_ and d_ department . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's just for small vocabulary . we it 's not user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah it 's o only for a limited vocabulary , project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . and ho marketing: say eighty commands or so . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah okay . user interface: and also the scroller button , how much will it cost . industrial designer: and well uh compared to the to s the simpl simpler simplest button . project manager: yeah . push push . marketing: mm , the scroll button , from the survey we never see that people would like to have some scrolling button . industrial designer: yeah . yeah i think that marketing: because they they just they 're just frightened to use the scrollings or help button . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah i i i think that uh well uh as we have seen in the in the presentation uh well uh about uh uh fifty percent of the of the percent n choose the button user interface: do n't use the buttons . industrial designer: so uh i think to have uh five uh simple button is sufficient for our functionality . user interface: yeah . yeah . yeah . yeah . project manager: it does n't mean that the other buttons are not necessary or important . marketing: yeah . user interface: important . industrial designer: yeah . but project manager: but they are just less used compar marketing: they 're not used much . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the uh the thing is is i is that we can add a functionality on the on the tv screen user interface: yeah . industrial designer: like uh a a list of function user interface: yeah . mm . industrial designer: and then you choose with the with the button to well you navigate user interface: yeah , yeah . so so the at most more power uh . industrial designer: and you project manager: or maybe we can u uh or maybe we can uh make this the ten percent of button more bigger than the others . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so . marketing: industrial designer: but if i i if we if we could have a a a display uh g a user interface that is very complete on the tv screen i think that just five buttons are sufficient , user interface: yep . industrial designer: one to go up left right down and uh enter user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you you you just select the functionality you want to access or things like that . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . industrial designer: you do n't have to to switch to a channel to another uh project manager: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: or it could be like this , as the people say , if they have a lcd on the remote not on the television . because when you have the lcd onto the television screen you miss the picture in the background , we are most focused on the commands . industrial designer: yeah but marketing: so if you have then lcd in the remote , you just have a menu , and increasing and lower these signs here to change the programs and this menu when you press the menu , in the lcd displays as you go on pressing the menu it faster displays volume , then the program , then the brightness , contrast and all the stuff . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but if you look at the lcd you you do n't look at the tv screen marketing: and accordingly you can just increase or decrease . project manager: it 's user interface: mm . mm . industrial designer: so i i it 's not really worth to get to have the image if you do n't look at , so . user interface: i if mm . mm . project manager: and i think it 's increases the cost of the the remote control if you use lcd . i user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that has to be checked out . user interface: i think that there 's no contradiction here , because if there are few buttons , you do n't have to look at your your controller any more because you know where the buttons are , so if you wan na control the screen d sh sharpness you just say sharpness industrial designer: yeah . user interface: and then you t turn you just press lef increase or decrease button industrial designer: user interface: and the same for the volume and the channel , marketing: yeah . user interface: if you had the speech recognition there you just shout your channel , just tell your channel and then you do n't even have to look at the butto at the controller so finally that wil eliminates the the need for lcd , marketing: okay . user interface: with the help of speech recogniser you can marketing: i mean , better if we could just check all the cost with lcd user interface: yeah . marketing: and also with the speech recognition . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and then we could find which would would be a more suitable in this case . user interface: mm . mm . yeah . a and marketing: and the third problem was to find the remote control . always , so fifty percent of the people say they lose the remotes . industrial designer: well so we we can think about a well a a vocal command like uh find user interface: mm . industrial designer: and when the remote control uh hears fine well yeah just uh to make him beep or t project manager: you will listen to a peep , special peep . user interface: where , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right , that 's exactly what i mean by voice commander . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: or it could be also something like this , user interface: yeah . marketing: uh it 's always boring to change the batteries of the remotes control , user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so we have some one charger there and whenever we do n't use the remote control we put it in the charger . user interface: put it back at the charge . industrial designer: put user interface: yeah . marketing: and when we 're using that t remote and if we misplace somewhere , in the charger we have a small button , and just by pressing the button in the charger the uh remote control beeps , wherever it is . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . and that 's a good idea , that 's simple , like in phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: i mean it doe it also does n't require a voice command , project manager: but you do n't you do n't have to move the the charger . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because there are problems with a voice command . user interface: hmm . mm . th yeah . mm yeah . yeah . mm . marketing: yeah , yeah , yeah . project manager: you have to keep it . marketing: i mean charger would be fixed industrial designer: yeah . marketing: because it 's always with electricity plugged . industrial designer: yeah if there if there uh there is nuff not enough battery . also and uh uh the remote is lost . project manager: okay . user interface: mm . there 's mm . mm . marketing: user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . user interface: that we can what we can do is we can program a function whereby when you press the switch off tv button , the off button , the remote there be s uh instruction on the screen , please charge charge me . you never get it lost industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh every time you 're off the computer the tv you are asked the the command the tv com remote controller would tell you to put it back to where to the charger . marketing: it 's an good reminder , user interface: yeah . so you will never get lost yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right . industrial designer: okay . project manager: maybe for some people lazy people . user interface: yeah . yeah because everything is programmed inside . project manager: yeah yeah . user interface: so it 's it 's uh it 's all about strategy , y marketing: and of course the final point is a fancy look . user interface: mm . marketing: as we have seen earlier the remotes which were displayed by norman they were n't fancy , user interface: mm . industrial designer: they were ugly . user interface: yeah , yeah . marketing: i mean mm very big or something with lot of buttons . industrial designer: they project manager: mm . marketing: i think we should have something it industrial designer: well the last one with the um yeah with the two parts was uh original , so user interface: with uh two two two parts controller . marketing: i mean uh i mean uh i mean uh you see if it 's like that even a kid who wants to have a control he could just plug it and use it , you ca n't avoid him . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: but you can have an button for child lock . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: so just by pressing the button with some code , you t you put a lock onto the remote , so that he ca n't use even user interface: mm . mm . mm . mm . industrial designer: well we can think about uh having uh on the on the on the user interface when you switch on the tv you can uh well write a code or choose a category , if it is kids , uh things like that . marketing: mm uh user interface: mm . project manager: or user interface: mm . yeah . mm . marketing: that 's right . project manager: or maybe you have to to show some specific programmes for kids and then just just yeah just push uh kids button so it 's automatically user interface: mm . these are probl yeah . mm . mm . mm . project manager: . so if he . marketing: i think these other four points they 're the market demands and so it 's for the user interface design and industrial design to just think industrial designer: so for mm project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah . so for my part i will check the prices the um the prices difference uh of what to use , where to use , and s uh and so on . marketing: yeah i think it should be clearer for us in the next meeting that th uh these could be included . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . i think we need to define also a s the set of vocabularies for the speech recogniser industrial designer: yeah . user interface: because uh if you want uh say we can sort by channels or sort by tv programs , you have to decide a category of vocabularies for them . if numbers , they 're easy , project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: but if name the channel by by name industrial designer: well i think we can we can have just numbers for channels and you can say to your remote control like uh sports and then on the tv you have a list with with uh uh well with sports program playing now user interface: mm . industrial designer: and and uh marketing: no , we have a problem there . you see uh if you have a voice commands and you are s you are watching a score on uh basketball score or something , and if the score comes twenty four thirty five , you 've just say twenty five project manager: yeah it 's yeah . marketing: and suddenly the screen the channel goes to twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: that 's right , yeah , yeah . marketing: so i think there should be a prefix to some numbers industrial designer: well but well e every possible word uh has a probability to come about of the tv so . user interface: yeah . marketing: i mean the the you just check all the probability that saying tv twenty five and just ordinary twenty five . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah yeah . marketing: ordinary twenty five you almost there 's a probability of being said around sixty seventy percent user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah but well okay . marketing: and tv twenty five i dunno it will be round about one or two percent . user interface: mm . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: mm . marketing: so it 's better to have some prefix before the number . user interface: but i i i think that the user would like wou would like to associate the channel or call the channel rather than than the numbers . marketing: yeah something , some code . user interface: you say numbe channel number five of the tv correspond to something else in the channel . industrial designer: yeah yeah . user interface: so some people may want to say , i want to see this channel . industrial designer: mm mm . well i marketing: that will be too big . project manager: or just marketing: and it will be difficult for the vocabulary also . user interface: yeah . check with the v r_ and d_ department the capability of recogniser . project manager: it 's difficult to to just say the the name of the channel . it will be difficult to say just the name of the channel . user interface: uh ? project manager: because you have to s t uh a ch user interface: well , it 's convenient for the user . project manager: yeah but you have to to have all the name of the channel in your vocabulary . marketing: als might be you just forgot the channel name , you kno only know the number . project manager: or maybe industrial designer: yeah . marketing: then project manager: or maybe the user can create his own vocabulary , user interface: the uh uh mm . mm . project manager: just pronouncing the the name of channels and include in the vocabulary . user interface: i i think that i have mm mm i think there 's another way you can do is that uh you can uh if when the user ch press a button to choose the channel for example , then what you can do is that the you can make the tv screen to split them into small little little squares of images where you you you have a snapshot of every channel , so let 's say it 's a four by four matrix of the images , so now what you do is f looking at the all the sixteen channels available at one time , you just use the control button uh , you just you you just choose the the option you want marketing: yeah , the . user interface: and then you just hit the button and then you go to that channel . so project manager: or lets the user create his own vocabulary of channel . user interface: mm . so you you do n't use the speech recogniser in that way . project manager: no . just you have uh in the beginning you have uh t you have to train you have to create the vocabulary by yourself . user interface: oh , okay . yeah . industrial designer: well i uh i also project manager: by associating each channel with the name or industrial designer: i i also think about uh another problem , if if there is uh more than one person who is watching tv project manager: and for each one has his own . user interface: industrial designer: the s well the the speech uh r recogniser should be able to distinguish between the two . marketing: yeah yeah , . industrial designer: because uh i remember when i was a young child with my sister we yeah we always want to w to watch different emission at the at the same time user interface: mm . project manager: or you have to s user interface: yeah , i wan na watch this , i wan na watch that . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so it 's a pr it could be a problem if uh if well if someone passes by when you are watching tv and say oh tv thirty and just run , s user interface: mm . marketing: a and in the same lines we would have a one more problem . if we are using the television in the different environments , say in the factories or in the shops where there is a lot of noise and this voice commands if they fail to work , that would bring a bad name bad uh reputation for our company . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: mm . marketing: so i think we should specify some pre-requirements if we want to use a voice commands , say that it should be used in an silent homely environment or s something . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: or we can switch on or switch off the the special , yeah . marketing: yeah that 's right that should be an option . user interface: mm . industrial designer: yeah that 's well i think that 's a good uh a good option because it 's simple and uh simple to implement also , so . user interface: hmm . marketing: i think these are the practical problems . so we need to take care of them in the design . project manager: maybe we 'll discuss them in next meeting . industrial designer: project manager: it 's time to close this meeting . user interface: well , you you stay a five minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: yeah . okay . industrial designer: marketing: oh it came there on three minutes back so we are i think we can just press the okay . industrial designer: okay . project manager: thanks for your collaborations . industrial designer: so i see ya . marketing: okay . see you another thirty minutes .

industrial designer proposed that the team could have just numbers for channels and the speech recogniser should be able to distinguish between different voices and deal with noises .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

in this meeting , the team brainstormed about the look , functions and gadgets to adopt in the remote control and finally reached a decision on the overall design . the meeting started with discussion on the technical functions based on some new requirements delivered by project manager and on market research results presented by marketing . in the end , the team agreed on including mainly basic functions on the remote control , adding a joystick-like gadget that was able to charge and track the device , enlarging certain buttons and making it flashy .

summarize the discussion on the technical functions on the remote control . </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

industrial designer believed that the working design did not involve specialised technologies and therefore would not cost much or be difficult . user interface questioned this statement by arguing that the technical functions depended on the user requirements . the team discussed this point and then agreed that the remote control should be for novice users . later on , project manager suggested going through market research results delivered by marketing and the new requirements shown by themself . these clarified the directions of design and then the team agreed to include simple functions , certain large buttons , etc .

why did marketing disagree with project manager when discussing the technical functions on the remote control ? </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

project manager considered it necessary to focus on customers younger aged below forty because they have potential needs to be fulfilled . by contrast , marketing believed that the project should target a large group rather than only people younger than forty .

what did user interface think of putting lots of functions in the remote control when discussing the technical functions on it ? </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

user interface did not like the idea of putting lots of functions in the remote control because younger people were looking for a trendy look rather than multiple functions .

what did the group discuss about extra designs or gadgets to make the remote control special ? </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

at first , project manager pointed out that the key lied in users ' pain point , which was the trouble of losing remote controls . the team then started brainstorming in this direction , coming up with ideas such as a can opener , bouncing pads , big buttons , flashy design , changeable fronts , etc . later on , project manager put forward the idea of having a gadget like a vase to be put on the table , for containing the remote control . this idea then developed into one containing a base that could charge and track the remote control .

how did project manager think of the cost of adding rechargeable units to the device when discussing extra designs or gadgets to make the remote control special ? </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

project manager believed that money spent on the rechargeable units was necessary because other elements of the remote control were just basic . in addition , project manager thought it would not cost much if the product was produced in taiwan . however , it was acknowledged that cost could probably be a concern so he/ she decided to only do that if the cost was fair .

what 's industrial designer 's concern about the idea of adding rechargeable units to the device during discussion on extra designs or gadgets to make the remote control special ? </s> user interface: here we go again . industrial designer: my mouse is not working anymore . user interface: oh . industrial designer: he 's uh marketing: oh . user interface: okay . industrial designer: when i put it in , is is going to beep beep beep . marketing: oh , i got a nice little screen here over here . user interface: marketing: i got like this big black border uh on every side . industrial designer: project manager: okay . user interface: mm , okay . project manager: everybody ready ? marketing: i 'll i 'll fix it . user interface: yeah , it 's okay . project manager: welcome at the functional design meeting , again presented by maarten . marketing: yeah , whatever . user interface: marketing: project manager: uh this is the agenda , the opening . uh , we 've got three presentations . and i 'm gon na show you some of the new projects requirements that were sent to me . and we 're gon na make a decision on the remote control functions . we have uh forty minutes . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , well this is the the closing already . user interface: project manager: so uh well we start off with the th the first presentation then . uh , i think um in uh we have to do it in uh in right order . user interface: okay . project manager: maybe the marketing: i do n't know what the right order is . so project manager: well , it user interface: no . industrial designer: huh . project manager: oh that . it wo n't does n't maybe we should start with the the technical functions . industrial designer: okay , project manager: yeah ? industrial designer: how can i get this on the whiteboard ? project manager: well it 's you dumped the file in the uh in the sh in the project document folder . user interface: in project . industrial designer: okay , i 've done that . project manager: you 've already done that ? user interface: no can that open . industrial designer: yes . project manager: well let 's close this one . we 'll just uh open a new one . user interface: open it there . project manager: uh , well . yes . uh-oh . new thing . oh yeah , uh i have to say something . uh , due to some uh technical problems i have n't uh digitized the last uh the meeting minutes . but i 'll uh make sure that uh happens next time . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . about the get project manager: and i 'll get this one uh in digital uh form too . industrial designer: 'kay , we 're going to um uh talk about working design . um , the method of the remote control is uh electrical energy , it activates a chip uh in the remote . it 's an electrical circuit which compose uh messages in the form of uh uh infrared signals to control the television . mm , it 's a nowadays very uh known , a known uh uh technology . um , the known technology can make a cost very low . uh , it 's a wild uh a wide sale uh of uh remote controls in the world . and and the components are very uh very cheap . um , uh , diodes , uh bat batteries and uh uh led lights , they 're needed and they 're uh everywhere available . uh , again , it 's a fair price . it 's a common uh technology uh , like i told um uh , the circuit board , it 's the most um important uh um part of the remote control . uh , we can use for that uh fibreglass with copper wires , it 's it is uh can be made as fast as printing paper . it 's uh it 's all very uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , they 're making it uh all the time . uh , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it 's not uh very specialised uh technology . i have n't come to here , but um i 've got uh some uh images of uh remote controls . they were not uh very uh trendy or just uh just a remote control like everyone knows . so i do n't know uh why i should put it here . uh project manager: okay . but it 's the technical side of the remote control . user interface: industrial designer: yes , but uh i uh have n't made it because uh of the time . project manager: oh . okay . well , we 'll we 'll have to skip that part then . industrial designer: what ? user interface: okay . project manager: but you do n't think it 's a problem um to design uh the technical part of the remote control ? it 's gon na be easy ? industrial designer: no . yes . project manager: okay . user interface: but nothing restricted for user interface ? project manager: yeah . m user interface: with technical industrial designer: um , no , it 's uh it 's just a part of uh a known technology , yeah . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: okay . user interface: 'kay . industrial designer: remote control is nothing special nowadays . project manager: r regardless of what type of functions we want to implement . does n't really matter . user interface: okay . industrial designer: um user interface: but i kind of uh industrial designer: i do n't think so , project manager: okay . yeah , okay . industrial designer: because of the all the televisions uh there are a few maybe a couple of televisions with the new functions , user interface: yes . uh project manager: okay . industrial designer: but is it useful to put them on a on a standard uh remote ? project manager: well , we 'll see . we 'll see later on . user interface: well , the technical functions . um , well i do n't know if you got the same uh pictures as i got , project manager: no . user interface: but uh i got these two , industrial designer: no . user interface: and i think they 're we have to focus uh on uh the uh one hand the expert view or the novice user . th i think it 's it 's very much uh depending on the user requirements , i do n't s uh know who 's doing t project manager: well , uh will there be some uh user requirements later on ? the ones i i 've uh received from the account manager . user interface: yeah , but it i think that 's very important to watch uh what kind of functions there we want to uh put in a remote control . project manager: yeah . well , we 'll keep this in mind , and then discuss it later on . user interface: yeah , well y we can put functions in it when uh yeah , when we uh get the user requirements uh and we can update it . project manager: uh-huh . okay , but this real this uh big d uh distinction between this type of remote . we should we should choose one uh we should not compromise but uh really choose for uh expert viewer or novice v marketing: yes , i agree . yeah . project manager: yeah ? well , what that 's what you want trying to say . user interface: well , yeah w if you want try a a a huge market , if you want to reach a huge market , uh like elderly people and we have to choose for novice user . project manager: okay . okay . user interface: but i do n't know . it 's it 's really um depending on how how how far the the the remote controls are already in n um in use . project manager: yeah , well some of these uh , yeah . well , some of that will yeah , but i but it will be more clear when we come to the uh u uh some of the new requirements . user interface: yeah , probably , yeah . marketing: yes . project manager: so user interface: uh well , there are l at least uh basic functions , uh like just th the channels uh one till nine , uh on and off switch , which must be clear with a red button or something like that . um , most standard uh have volume , of course , and a mute function , and , of course , the next and previous channel . i think that 's just basic what we need . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and from that on we can user requirements what we need more . uh yeah , i just um um i thought joost was looking at the trendy the trends in the markets , and i do n't know if there uh are any um uh if you put more functions , more buttons , maybe it 's com becoming less trendy or something like that . marketing: yes . user interface: m you can just you can k marketing: i have n't really found a conclusion like that . user interface: you can keep it in mind that . marketing: yeah . user interface: i do n't know . uh , i th i thought the the with less buttons you can make a more trendier uh marketing: design . user interface: yeah , more trendier design , i think . i think . marketing: sounds interesting . project manager: user interface: yeah ? marketing: user interface: uh , well , that 's all i have to say , i think . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah , that was it . marketing: alright . project manager: well , then the marketing expert can uh tell us something about the current market . marketing: yes . user interface: . marketing: yeah . it 's alright . um alright , i 've done some research for functional requirements . um yes . the working method um there were hundred uh uh w h one hundred people , uh how do you say uh , f watched using remote controls in the usability lab and they also uh filled out a questionnaire uh with a few questions . uh , i 've lined them up here . uh , ask whether um common remote control looks good or not , about willingness to spend money on remote control , about zapping behaviour , and uh and stuff like that . i uh have found some interesting things . we do we do got a market . um , three out of four people claim m uh to find remote controls ugly . so if we make a trendy design , we sure have seventy fi seventy five percent of the market , which you can reach . um , three out of four users uh zaps a lot , as i uh quoted here from the uh results . zap buttons are used one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . that 's quite a lot . um , relevant options are , of course , power buttons . although , only used once per hour . uh , channel selection , volume and buttons for text , and the more um , yeah , other functions , like audio settings , video settings , sound settings are not said to be very important and uh very much used . furthermore , fifty percent says uh they only use ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . that does n't say we got we can leave ninety percent off . but it sure um says we should n't make it too uh complicated . fifty percent also claims uh to have lost a remote control very often in the room . and um an important thing here , the most important customers uh , which is over seventy percent of our market , is in the age range of thirty six to sixty five years old . and uh elderly people , our market , are less interested in uh nice features , but more willingly to spend more money on remote controls . so , what i was thinking oh , wrong side . we should n't implement too much features on uh on our remote control , because elderly people will get th lost . group features for a higher usability , uh what i was claiming in the previous meeting . um , all the settings , about audio settings , video settings and channel settings , which are not very often used , we could group them uh on one button and make them accessible uh in one menu button or whatever , because they are used very rarely and well , it uh there are a lot of options there , so we can really make uh yeah , how do you say , we can spare at buttons over there . project manager: okay . marketing: and um , if you want to implement v_c_r_ and d_v_d_ options , group them in the button , not too uh yeah . small buttons , so they wo n't be very um , how do you say project manager: visually presents . marketing: yes , wo n't be very present , thank you . and a trendy look , well uh , although seventy percent of the market is uh consists of elderly people uh who do n't really care for trendy looks or whatever , i guess it can do no harm to make it trendy for the other thirty percent . that was kind of what i found . project manager: okay . user interface: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: well , then we i 'm gon na show you some of the new project requirements and then we gon na discuss on uh what features we find important . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , well some of the uh new requirements make some of your findings quite uh irrelevant , i think . marketing: project manager: because um uh s decided to put they have decide to put two additional requirements forward . well , now i see four . marketing: two ? project manager: that 's kinda strange . well , they say tele teletext becomes outdated since the popularity of the internet . well , i think that may be so , but well , we ca n't just leave the teletext button off . user interface: well project manager: it 's impossible , i think . user interface: no way . marketing: no uh , i agree , i agree . project manager: so the compromise we could make is just to make one teletext button , you know , like on and off , and do n't make a lot of special put a lot of special features on it to make it transparent or marketing: not too much , no . project manager: you know , it 's just you want you want to be able to make use of teletext , but not to play with it that much . marketing: yeah . project manager: so we have to think of that . the remote control should only be used for television . otherwise , the project becomes more complex , which endangers the time t t ma uh the time to market . so maybe we should leave all d_v_d_ and v_c_r_ related features off completely . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . project manager: i do n't know . i think that uh that 's what they 're trying to say . marketing: project manager: uh , our current customers are within the age group of forty plus . new products should reach a new market with customers that are younger than forty . so you uh talked about the elderly who were willing to spend more on a remote control and who were interested . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but , well , they 're not relevant because we are aiming at a younger marketing: i do n't really agree actually , to be honest . it 's a very small market which we will approach then if we uh want to reach customers younger than forty . it 's only like thirty percent of the total market . project manager: yeah , but it is it 's is a dif it 's a fact that the th th that bigger market you 're talking about , we already cover that . marketing: mayb yeah ? project manager: our company already sells remote control to the older people , but we we also want , you know , a new customer group . that 's the one we have n't covered yet . so i think that 's what the problem is . we have n't got remote controls for uh marketing: okay . project manager: well i think , yeah . marketing: maybe maybe we can compromise a little bit . project manager: yeah , i think so . maybe if it 's marketing: not too much then , bu alright . project manager: no no , but i think we have to just keep in mind what the older age group wants . so maybe we can make a remote control that 's primarily interesting for the younger group , but is n't that bad for an older person either . marketing: yes . project manager: uh , our corporate image sh should stay recognisable in our products . our product 's corporate colour and slogan must be implemented in the new design . okay , something else nice to know . user interface: but what 's our slogan ? project manager: sorry ? yeah , you will have to look that up . user interface: the slogan uh marketing: yeah , i 'll have a look . project manager: i think it 's something about the user interface: puts fashion in electronics . marketing: we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: oh , okay . i thought it w might be , let 's make things better or something , but user interface: sense simplicity . marketing: sense and simplicity . project manager: okay well , let 's go back to the the agenda . so we 've now had to the three presentations . we know about the new project requirements . that means we can uh well d yeah , discuss on the remote control functions . well , if i can uh make a start , i think it 's becoming more clear what kind of remote control it 's gon na be , and i already talked about the maybe you have a f familiar with the rem remote control that has the the can opener underneath it . i think we 're we 're looking for some marketing: project manager: yeah , we we 're looking for a really simple remote control with only basic tv functions . y well , that user interface: yeah . marketing: well , to be honest , if um our uh aim group is uh till forty , not older than forty , maybe that 's not very uh yeah , we do n't really need to have a simple remote control . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: i think we can implement more functions then , because um basically uh the younger people are more able to adapt to new technology user interface: yeah , but wha project manager: yeah , yeah . marketing: and therefore will be a more project manager: m yeah , that 's why um well a lot of um the use the requirements the the account manager sent me , i think they are are c are contradicting each other , user interface: but project manager: because they want a simpler design , and no uh other uh s functions than just tv , but they s do aim at a younger marketing: yes . project manager: well , ma user interface: yeah , but you sai you said that that a lot of functions are n't used . marketing: yeah . user interface: so why should j we put this function in ? marketing: well , i think user interface: i think more i think uh people younger people are more looking for just a trendy look than uh more functions . industrial designer: project manager: but i think uh you we can make some discuss uh distinctions in uh what kin in the , know , th th in functions you have y well you have different kind of uh equipment in your room , like a t tv and a d_v_d_ player . marketing: yes . project manager: you can uh , know , you you can make very d you can put very detailed functions regarding the tv set on your remote control uh with the with uh the , you know , audio settings and uh v uh screen settings . we do n't want that . i think that was that became clear . we do n't want . but w maybe we should put some func uh , i know that the younger people will most likely have a d_v_d_ player they want to , you know , they want to uh marketing: yeah , control . user interface: yeah , but uh you said project manager: control , remotely . user interface: yeah , d yeah , but th the functions are not in the remote control we 're making . marketing: project manager: no , yeah , th th the user requirements of the the the new project requirements told us not to user interface: it 's n yeah . project manager: but maybe w yeah . i think we maybe should user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , well we should uh put some functions for other maybe for other equipment on it . but just the basic functions . maybe like rewind and wind , marketing: project manager: or n what d what do you guys think ? industrial designer: but you can put them under the same button . marketing: not much more than that . project manager: yeah , if as far as possible . marketing: yep . or we can u u we could put 'em behind the flip-flap or whatever . project manager: but what do you think ? marketing: so t project manager: do th should we implement features that uh uh or functions that to control other devices ? user interface: no . project manager: no , you do n't think so ? marketing: user interface: no , new requirements say no . project manager: yeah , the new requirements say so . user interface: so industrial designer: but you can put a play and stop and and rewind . project manager: well , maybe it 's marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe there there there is something th m most of the time these functions do n't support the particular device as well as their their own remote control . user interface: yeah , but project manager: you know , a lot of d_v_d_ players have some tricky settings with industrial designer: yes , but we user interface: i i if it 's too simple uh th they wo n't use the remote control , they use their own th th with lot more functions . marketing: y yes . project manager: yep , exactly . that 's that 's wha marketing: but but for for example , v_c_r_ , that 's better example in this case . i think on a remote control for television you do n't need to be able to programme uh the v_c_r_ to start recording at three p_m_ or whatever , project manager: no no , you do n't no no , you do n't need it . no , no . user interface: no , no . exactly . industrial designer: huh . marketing: just play , stop , rewind and uh fast forward . project manager: okay , but we have to think uh w we have to think d_v_d_ i th uh , i guess , marketing: yeah , i know , but uh project manager: so um but uh from my experience it 's kinda a lot of d_v_d_ players , you know , like forwarding , goes differently . uh , you get two speed or eight speed or sixteen speed . it 's c sometimes a bit difficult . user interface: mm , yeah . project manager: maybe if we just leave the d_v_d_ functional m uh well , i was thinking about putting it in , but concerning the project requirements and what you just said , i think we m should focus on the tv then . marketing: yes . user interface: yeah , but just keep it simple and look more at th project manager: and uh and it 's just an uh a complimentary remote and not a universal one . if you want to keep it simple , you can make a universal remote . user interface: no . it 's only for television . so project manager: okay . it 's just a s it it should be something that is like a gadget on your coffee table , industrial designer: yes , but there are there are project manager: and it 's just for when you you you jump on the couch , you pick up the the the nice remote , the simple one , just to put on the television , nothing more . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , nothing more . exactly . project manager: okay . marketing: alright . project manager: um , but what televis industrial designer: but how wi how will you be able to handle a whole market ? there are uh a dozen of uh dozens of of remote controls that have project manager: yeah , we we 'll make w this one trendy . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: project manager: and simple . user interface: the user interface is easy . project manager: well , we we will come to that , but ju first on the on the functions . so we should put uh zap buttons on it . um , also numbers , to uh to go to the specific channels . user interface: and the basic yeah , basic functions , yeah . marketing: yes , definitely , yeah . project manager: uh , user interface: it 's too much integrated in the other . project manager: okay , a t a teletext button should be there . but just one big teletext button , on and off . user interface: yeah . project manager: probably . marketing: yeah , and maybe two or three other options , but not nothing more than that . i think stop function is very useful . if you have a uh a page which consists of more pages , and you are not a very quick reader , project manager: oh , okay . marketing: then i think it 's very irritating if the next page shows up , but project manager: yeah , but uh i think that becomes too difficult , it 's not a very common function and people will have to read up on their remote then . marketing: well , i use it very regularly , the action . i re i use it quite often . project manager: yeah , yeah , but maybe you s yeah yeah , maybe y you do , but i 've never heard of it in the first place . and user interface: will you look marketing: industrial designer: project manager: we have to well t yeah , and t and teletext is becoming outdated . user interface: look at the market . project manager: we just want to see what programmes are on and what time it is probably . yeah . i do n't know . i think that that 's kin getting too complex for our remote . user interface: well project manager: i do n't know what you th guys think . marketing: might be . might be . user interface: yeah , i uh , it 's sunday i always use it for the uh yeah , for the soccer uh project manager: yeah , but do you like to have a such a s stop button ? or do you think it uh i think it 's a kind of uh uh very rare and special function . user interface: well , uh when you uh uh when you look uh for example um , a couple of weeks ago i looked at the for the flights , and there are a lot of flights in one page , so if if th project manager: yeah . okay , it goes yeah , but that 's kind of stuff we should do on the internet right now . that 's why it was uh said in the in the use in the r new requirements . industrial designer: yes , but you could put user interface: yeah , but industrial designer: on the z on the zap buttons you can put it to uh to uh access all the same pages . project manager: well yeah uh , industrial designer: if you have seven pages , you can go up and down . project manager: lots of new televisions can store pages , you know , and then you can just skip manually through them using industrial designer: yes . project manager: i think we should just put one teletext button on it . user interface: true . project manager: then we meet uh the new requirements . we also meet the other thin y you sh you just re we have to choose for the the simple design , i guess . user interface: a simple yeah . project manager: okay . um , well , what functions do we have to decide on ? or do we uh i dunno if we have t stif specifically name all the functions we n we want . we have the zap and uh the volume . should we do m make them very big ? the the the zap button . d d industrial designer: yes . marketing: i think the plus and the minus button should be uh quite present , project manager: th that 's that 's that 's considered to be trendy also . user interface: but trendy , yeah . marketing: yep . project manager: or maybe you should place them on a uh , in a special way ? user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: maybe we can make uh a kind of a joystick . project manager: yeah , something or uh somethin special way to to zap through the it has to s it has to be yeah , and quick . you have to use it very quickly . user interface: original . it was uh marketing: yep . user interface: true . marketing: if you grab the remote , your hands should be on top of the plus . project manager: yeah , and it the buttons should make it um possible to to zap through your channels in a rapid at a rapid pace . marketing: yes . project manager: oh , what should we decide on then ? i think in a in a case of this simple remote control , the technical aspects which uh were n't worked out already , but it w should n't be a problem then . industrial designer: but user interface: yeah . industrial designer: no , it 's o just signals uh and the television d uh does the rest . project manager: yep . user interface: maybe uh project manager: no , okay , but we do n't have to uh , when we do n't want to uh control other devices , i think it makes it even more simple . industrial designer: no . user interface: uh maybe we uh uh the batteries maybe . if you use large batteries or small batter batteries . project manager: i think industrial designer: the most standard batteries . project manager: i think that we should use uh d user interface: yeah ? marketing: i think double a_ . project manager: yeah , not not uh the b the watch kind marketing: yep . project manager: th the most uh well , it has to be simple , and i wi user interface: yeah . marketing: the most ordinary uh batteries . project manager: which are most likely to be found somewhere in the house , you know . user interface: okay . marketing: yep . project manager: oh . how much time do we ha we have left uh ? m m m more than thirty minutes ? marketing: i think about twenty minutes . project manager: uh ten twenty minutes . well , uh these these should n't user interface: early break . industrial designer: but i in a way we have to be uh uh special . project manager: yeah . yeah , okay . but that 's that 's do you uh have you have you think about tha thought about that ? how we can what the extra touch can be . do you suggest design or the shape or some gadget f f kind of feature or industrial designer: maybe th m project manager: well , it was something about how we lose them . maybe it should be a remote control when you you clap you hands it makes some noise or some gadget kind of thing . marketing: i think that 's n that 's more for a for an age range or uh ten to twelve or whatever . user interface: to find him . that 's maybe yeah . project manager: yeah . i do n't know . i do n't know . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: nah , um a lot of people like to have such kind kind of kind of gay kind of things . it w it w should be like a birthday present or something that you give someone , and it is i has something nice . marketing: yeah , yeah , that 's good one , yep . project manager: or maybe it w should have a big uh light that can flash or something on it , user interface: yeah . project manager: or maybe it should or an or the like the the can opener . maybe it contains some feature that you do n't normally link to a remote control . i think it 's very impor because we 're gon na make such a basic remote control , we have to do something to make it special . user interface: yeah . project manager: it 's gon na cost twenty five euros . marketing: ye i think the can opener i is a brilliant idea actually , because television and beer is not a rare combination . project manager: yeah , but the well , it 's already been done . user interface: yeah , but that 's yeah . project manager: nah . yeah , that 's true . but and i think it 's gon na be uh very uh it has to be sturdy or something , so maybe with with bouncing pads so that you can just throw it on the floor or something . marketing: yes . project manager: it has to be used something special , user interface: yeah . project manager: and you really it has to , marketing: yep . project manager: you know y not s people , when they buy it , they have to think , well this one lasts for a long time . we 're really gon na use them . not some thing you you throw away next week , you know . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: so maybe uh that 's i i think that 's when uh when we decide on these type of functions , know , basic functions , uh it 's very important to find something like this . so there 's a very important task for you . and maybe we can all think about it . user interface: be original , yeah . project manager: uh , also for you maybe , when t you it 's very nice when you can be entra when you can be trendy , and and uh and al as in a friend use friendly as well , you know . user interface: mm-hmm . and use friendly , yeah . project manager: so big buttons , flashy design , and maybe some kind of gadget kind of thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: uh-huh . user interface: must brain-storm . marketing: yeah , a swapable front or whatever . project manager: yeah , or just different colours would be uh i do n't know if people also wan na spend more money on fronts for their uh remote control . user interface: well industrial designer: for the remote control . project manager: it could be be yeah , you never know , but user interface: why not ? marketing: yeah . user interface: more money for us . marketing: project manager: but it and i think we have to make it quite big . user interface: yeah . quite big . yeah , you think ? project manager: yeah , marketing: yes , definitely , definitely . project manager: people industrial designer: that 's to be uh a formed for your hand . project manager: so , and and also because uh it is expensive . if you want it to be something , you know , it 's ha does n't have much functions marketing: project manager: want to be you do n't want to get it l make it marketing: yes , it it it should be f be visible nearly anywhere in the room . as i uh as i said during my presentation , fifty percent uh o project manager: mm-hmm . and shou and should ni look nice when you put it on a table . i i think you m might wan na put it uh user interface: a standard or something . project manager: yeah , that it it it it stands up . yeah , you have to put it on its so it 's like a vase or uh something you put on a table . marketing: yeah . a face ? project manager: no no , put stuff inside it . but , it 's like like a statue or something marketing: or uh yeah , yeah . yeah . user interface: industrial designer: more like a joystick then . marketing: yeah , yeah , i see what you mean , yep . user interface: it 's like you have uh four phones . something like that . project manager: yeah yeah , but yeah , but you also can put it somewhere near the window in marketing: if you do that , but i do n't know if that 's possible within the production cost of twelve and a half euros . project manager: that it 's it 's fashionable . user interface: project manager: i i do n't marketing: i in in the base we could like make uh a button , and if you push it , the remote control itself s makes noise . project manager: oh , yeah . marketing: that 's probably stupid , but uh as i found here uh , fifty percent , was it fifty ? industrial designer: but that 's that 's fun for the first time , and then the second marketing: uh fifty percent fifty percent often loses remote control . project manager: yeah , but but when you when it gets lost , how can you press the button to make it marketing: no uh , of the base the the the the the the the thing you put it in . project manager: oh , okay . user interface: on the television . project manager: uh , that 's kind of nice . user interface: oh , like this . marketing: if an a button in in that uh user interface: project manager: and then also you do n't even need batteries , because you can make it uh chargeable . industrial designer: or you can user interface: a char chargeable . yeah . marketing: yeah , you can ma make rechargeable one , yeah . why not . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah , that w yeah , but yeah , the pro no , well i think that it might be t p well , nee but we do n't yeah . user interface: why not . project manager: maybe you , but we do n't know much about production cost , but when you you can imagine that when you spend twenty five euros on a remote control and it 's a basic remote control , then the then the money there must be money to spend on that kind of st you know , rechargeable units . industrial designer: with recharger . user interface: marketing: it should only cost twelve and a half euros , of course . aye ? project manager: yeah , but we would d ma we 'd do it in taiwan and so , it 's not gon na be that expen user interface: production . marketing: yeah , okay . project manager: uh i i think it 's a great idea . user interface: it should be possible . i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . project manager: s some kind of be i 've never seen that before , and you make it uh um be uh , you see it with uh the mo the mouses nowadays . user interface: to make a base or something ? marketing: yes . yes , definitely . yeah . industrial designer: yes , but is that handy ? project manager: well , i well it 's really ch you can recharge it , so you ha never have the battery problem . that 's one . user interface: it 's it 's it 's it 's project manager: and uh you can always find your remote control up user interface: it 's not the purpose to be handy , it 's industrial designer: but but remote controls remote controls nowadays can can last uh two years , three years , with with t two batteries . project manager: uh , okay . well , maybe yeah , you could when that 's when it 's too costly , you could probably skip the recharger , industrial designer: and then you project manager: but you will you do need uh also an uh , also you would need a battery in the the base unit as well , you know . does it makes it kinda industrial designer: yes . or marketing: well y you you could connect that to two hundred to twenty volts , of course . user interface: mm . yeah , but that 's not it 's ugly , i think . project manager: yeah , yeah . okay . yeah . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: yeah , but then it 's very easy to make it also a rechargeab i do n't think that is gon na cost much to make it also a recharge function in it . user interface: no . marketing: on the other hand , if you do n't do it , we can also make a nice bay . i mean , it looks trendy and still still put a bleep function in it , project manager: yeah . marketing: but um i think the bay is definitely uh project manager: i think it 's a good idea . and make it , you know , we we um well , we uh it 's it is n't a t a most uh costly uh remote control . we can save on the on the functions . we just put some simple button in , make it big and sturdy , nothing more , and just make s sure there 's some noise that it can make , or probably some kind of cheap light thing around it or that it uh that it lights up , marketing: sure , why not . yep . project manager: it 's also nice . and if you put it away , i think it 's uh w we have to we uh that 's uh marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's not a easy market . user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to something special . and for twenty five euros people want something remote c special from your mote control , marketing: yeah . user interface: true . project manager: and we ca n't deliver that in r with uh regards to the functions , user interface: yeah . marketing: definitely . project manager: because we are n't gon na put marketing: with eye candy , ear candy , whatever . yeah , definitely . project manager: yeah . and then uh when make it , you know , nice looking shape and this and then you also you got the stand-up thing . yeah . i think i think it 's a good idea . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah , it must be must be a gadget to have . project manager: yeah . marketing: definitely , yeah . project manager: oh , if it let 's well , we will see what 's possible concerning the the costs , and if it 's possible we 'll do that . and we even try to save up on other stuff to make sure we can do such a thing . user interface: yeah . project manager: and the first thing we the most likeable thing to to n to skip is then probably the recharge function or something . if that 's too expensive , we wo n't do that . user interface: yeah , we c project manager: but it would be nice . marketing: it would be nice , yes . project manager: it 's the idea . i know that batteries last long nowadays . and and what people just think about , well , i 'll never have to buy any r batteries again , so y b because it 's very annoying when your battery is empty . and you know then when you have n't batteries around , and probably for two weeks , your remo i 've experienced that that marketing: most televisions break down before the battery pack is empty , so yes . project manager: yeah , okay . so , easy functions . well , we will we will i think we 'll work that out , zapping , numbers on it , bi user interface: or just give a beep when the battery 's out or uh down . project manager: yeah . but it 's also annoying . marketing: yeah , why not . user interface: project manager: 'cause as long as it stays as it ke keeps working , you 're not very motivated to do something about it . marketing: hmm . user interface: yeah . true . project manager: then it beeps all the time and . marketing: no , that 's true . project manager: you do n't want to have ever have those problems , and you wo n't have if if you have the rechargeable . and you do n't have to use the unit , you can also put it on the side if people do n't like it . uh , i i in the in the ma marketing: why not . industrial designer: but you pay for it . project manager: yeah , but it w i mean , if if they pay for it because they think , oh , that 's a great idea , i 'm gon na use it . and when it , you know , when time goes by and they think , well , i 'll never put him in the recharger , i think last long enough , then they put it on side and they can use it now and then . then when they look get m i i i know for sure that everybody who buys this remote control , within a couple of months of they will be in the situation that they they 're seeking for the remote control , they wan na see something quick and uh just push the button and th uh , user interface: yeah . project manager: i think it 's brilliant . marketing: bleep bleep bleep , oh there it is , yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah , i 've never it 's so simple , but i 've never seen it . user interface: yeah . project manager: m maybe we should really do this . user interface: and you can leave it just there . marketing: no . nearly . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: okay now , well , how much time have we got left ? these clocks are n't uh synched . user interface: yes . marketing: project manager: oh , now i 've put uh well , it is twenty p user interface: yeah , i 'll project manager: okay , so we have ten minutes or something ? marketing: something like that , yeah . project manager: yeah , but we 're uh we 're done . i think . user interface: uh fifteen minutes . project manager: we 've decided on the functions . well , there is some oh . there is a closing sheet . we have lunch break , and then we have thirty minutes of individual work . user interface: marketing: oh . project manager: oh okay , i 'll make sure i 'll i had some problems with uh the digitising the the first minutes , the the s the next minutes wo n't be a problem , but i 'll try to make sure the first one will be in the folder too , but maybe it wo n't work , but you 'll see . i think these are more important than the first ones , so marketing: we 'll see . user interface: can you make an uh uh a part of f folder for the minutes maybe ? project manager: . user interface: that not not everything in one one uh folder . marketing: maarten , five minutes . project manager: oh , five minutes . yeah , because uh i i d i did uh the first minutes i did were were were a bit scratchy , you know . then i did a s second one with a nicer layout , which i could uh , know , use for the other ones well , but uh i d think uh i forgot to do put done under the first one , and when you go write a second uh it 's get it 's not working when you try to write second uh paper or something . user interface: yeah . maybe . marketing: no , that 's true uh , yeah . project manager: and then you you had to overwrite it or someth i do n't know . becau i d uh , it was not my uh pen . marketing: should we by the way draw um project manager: this kind of looks you like . marketing: on our nice whiteboard , um a little uh idea of project manager: of the shape . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , probably , it would be nice . user interface: or the sh marketing: i dunno . has anyone got um a little bit detailed ideas about the shape ? user interface: do you get an idea of the shape ? marketing: i do n't , for one . industrial designer: maybe like this pen . marketing: a bit bigger i guess , but project manager: no , bigger . user interface: a little bit bigger , yeah but marketing: the shape is nice , it 's um something different , and we want we want that . industrial designer: it has to feel nice in your hand . project manager: well , i i i have to say , i have this uh can opening remote control in my head most of all , marketing: yeah . user interface: project manager: or i think some maybe we should no , that will be too costly . user interface: oh , uh look uh look at the pictures . project manager: we shou we could also , that was a would also be an idea , but i do n't think it i do n't know if it exists already , you should like make alessi or something design it . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: that would also be nice . but that 's gon na then you c then you do n't marketing: yeah , but twelve and a half euros ? uh project manager: yeah , but then you do n't have t yeah it that 's not something i that 's in the production cost a one it 's a one time , you know s was it 's a single cost . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah , m but but then you can nah , i do n't thin i think that it would be more expensive , because i 've bought the alessi stuff more often and even small pencil holders or something are more expensive . marketing: yeah , that 's true . project manager: would be a nice idea though . i do n't know . i think it uh has to be a r it has to have round forms or something . like something like that or so or so marketing: something like that is very ergonomic . project manager: and on th and then uh s a base unit underneath it . it 's also round . marketing: so project manager: put it in there uh wire on it . marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh , i do n't know , some some lights , a big but well . user interface: yeah , flash lights at the side . at the side , or something like that . project manager: volume and programme , yeah . marketing: yes , volume and programme should be there i guess , because you hands wi uh y your hands will be in the smaller part . project manager: and some of the extra funct some of the extra functions over here . numbers . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , and the numbers on top , i guess . user interface: yeah . project manager: and and lights ? how we 're g well , maybe uh s a ring of no , no , you have to maybe on the side of it . marketing: maybe ro roun rounds user interface: yeah , side of it . marketing: uh uh l sorry . project manager: along the side uh strip of yeah . user interface: just two leds or something on the side . yeah . marketing: maybe lights also around the volume and the p the plus minus programme buttons . project manager: yeah , but i also meant the the blinking li w you know , the ones that also blink when you try to uh uh locate your remote . marketing: oh . okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , theys have to be user interface: well , uh probably at the side . you know look at the front , but project manager: yeah . yeah , yeah . exactly . when you you see it from the side , then it would look just like that . and then you have a strip of uh lights or something user interface: yeah , exactly , and then there is yeah . yeah , something like that , yeah . marketing: okay , yeah . project manager: well , uh i think it 's nice , for one thing . maybe put something on top of it or , you know , like that 's looks funny . user interface: no . no . marketing: project manager: i do n't know . or some bump . marketing: i think i think that 'll be too big tha too big then . project manager: maybe some yeah ? user interface: bumper or something . project manager: we 'll have to think about it . i think we 're we 're done . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: yes , we are . project manager: we can save this one . user interface: lunch break . marketing: alright . yes , i guess it 's lunch time . user interface: okay then . project manager: mm mm . user interface: marketing: i do n't know . industrial designer: marketing: half and hour ? user interface: okay , five uh marketing: i thought our next uh next individual round was half an hour . project manager: yeah , that was what uh marketing: i do n't know about the lunch break . project manager: mm , we 'll hear about it . marketing: well user interface: oh . . { vocalsound }

to industrial designer , remote controls could last a long time with two batteries . therefore , it might not be necessary or attractive enough to customers in his/ her opinion .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

the whole meeting was focused on the functional design of the new remote control project . first of all , marketing , user interface , and industrial designer each gave a presentation about user requirements , technical function design , and working design respectively . then , project manager announced some amendments to project requirements , which automatically rejected some of the previous assumptions and aroused further discussion about design and functionality with people above 40 as target customers .

summarize the amendments to project requirements and the following discussion . </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

project manager announced that the remote control ought to be only suitable for tv , and that teletext as an outmoded function should be skipped , while internet access becomes an optional function . meanwhile , target customers are specified as 40 plus . however , project manager 's requirements of no teletext and design simplification were effectively challenged and rebutted by marketing . as a result , the focus on the project was changed from design to functionality .

what attitude did marketing hold towards the `` no teletext but internet '' requirement when commenting on new project requirements and why ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

marketing was strongly against the `` no teletext but internet '' requirement , because he thought there was little chance that customers over 40 would use tvs with internet access in the near future . and he added that teletext was no doubt a key feature for the remote control , especially for the elder generation , and hence should not be ruled out anyway . consequently , the group agreed to keep teletext and further negotiate with the board .

why did marketing disagree with the fancy design requirement proposed by project manager ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

marketing considered fancy design to be insignificant , as he believed that unlike the younger generation , people of 40 plus were not that particular about appearance and would care more about its functionality instead . marketing 's opinion was subsequently agreed by other team members .

summarize the group discussion about functionality with the elderly as target customers . </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

firstly , after a short debate , the group reached a consensus that basic layout would be enough for the button design , on which too much emphasis would be unnecessary for the elder generation . then , the group agreed to implement a docking station as an extra with a positioning function . also , as opposed to touchscreen or lcd screen , an ordinary small screen and default materials were applauded . finally , project manager proposed to specify the target group as people above 60 , which could improve product image as marketing said .

what was the decision of the discussion about button design ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

though project manager brought up scroll button and joystick as possible options , industrial rejected that idea by arguing that the elderly were not accustomed to using them , therefore basic layout would be sufficient . then marketing further pointed out that there was not so much to gain in the competition of less buttons , as very few buttons would be needed for a tv remote anyway . project manager accepted those ideas .

why was the docking station taken into consideration and how was its function achieved ? </s> project manager: okay . everybody found his place again ? yeah ? marketing: yes . project manager: that 's nice . okay so this is our second meeting . and uh still failing ? marketing: yeah . project manager: uh now we 're going um into the functional design . um important thing of this phase is that we 're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design . so that we can move onto the second uh phase . but first this phase . um first an announcement . there 's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . so marketing: project manager: there 's our ghost mouse again . that that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that 's because of this uh user interface: okay . project manager: it 's in wing c_ and e_ . marketing: okay . project manager: so it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . but it 's going to be cold anyway , so i do n't think you 're gon na need it . user interface: marketing: no . project manager: then our agenda . now first the opening . uh this time i will take the minutes . uh you 're going to have a presentation . all of you . um and we 've got forty minutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . so uh i suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh which have been sent to me . and then the decision on the control functions uh which we wan na include and those which we do n't wan na include . so we 've got forty minutes for all of it . so i suggest um let 's start with the first presentation . marketing: yes . project manager: um who wants to be first ? marketing: think i 'll go first . project manager: okay . so marketing: project manager: just maybe it 's easier if you um yeah i think you will tell your presentation as well . just which function you have and what you 're gon na talk about . marketing: 'kay . my name is freek van ponnen . i 'm the market expert . but you already knew that . um i 've done some research . we have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . uh we let them fill out a questionnaire . we had one hundred of these uh test subjects . uh in addition we did some market research . uh see what the market consists of . what ages are involved . well these are three quite astonishing results , i thought . um remotes are being considered ugly . f uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . um and an additional eighty percent indicated that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . so um in addition remotes were not very functional . fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of the buttons on a remote control . and fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . so user interface: mm . marketing: some things . then we did some research to the most relevant functions . channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . the power button got a nine . and teletext got a six and a half . so these are the most most uh important functions on a remote control . then there are some one-time use function . that 's what i like to call them . that uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . which are not really used very frequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . one hundred and sixty eight times per hour . then these are the this is the market . um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . um main characteristic of this group is that they 're very critical on the remote control . um they like to use new f new functions . but they also are very critical . they wo n't spend their money very easily . so um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons the make up forty percent of the market . they are not really very interested in features . but they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . what i think this indicates for our um design . i think we should make a remote for the future . and this means we would um have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . um this would mean we would have to make a fancy design . um the results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused r_s_ r_s_i_ . um this is certainly something to take into account . and thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . so these are two factors that i think should be included in the design . besides of course that the remote must look very nice . and the functionality as a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , i think we should make very few buttons . uh this will also be uh beneficial to the design of the remote . uh i think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'cause they 're used most and so they should be robust . they should n't break down easily . um then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and i say might be because it would um certainly boost the uh production costs a lot . but it might be a good idea to make a docking station . and this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . so you 'd know where it is in the room . and in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an lcd screen in the remote control would be preferred . this was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . but up till forty five it remains feasible . this would also greatly increase the production costs but i think these are just some small factors we could consider . project manager: okay . marketing: that would be all . project manager: thank you . so anybody have um any questions until now ? marketing: any questions ? project manager: about functional requirements ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: okay industrial designer: no . project manager: that 's clear . now to the second . marketing: 'kay . project manager: user interface: uh okay . um i 've been looking at uh the user interface of it . um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . um project manager: yeah . yeah you can take your time . user interface: okay . project manager: we 've got uh plenty of time , user interface: mm ? marketing: yeah project manager: so marketing: you should go to the top thingy . slide show . user interface: oh . project manager: user interface: uh . project manager: yeah . there it is . yeah . user interface: okay . marketing: oh yeah . user interface: um yeah . i think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . uh uh i 've do i 've uh done a little uh research on the internet and not much information about it , um about uh interface but uh uh yeah i i 've been thinking about a simple manner uh to put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . uh so uh you 've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh d_v_d_ uh uh television , uh stereo . so um but uh it must be uh user-friendly . so um uh you c you ca n't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh yeah . uh uh uh yeah . in one um remote control . project manager: one remote . user interface: but um yeah . project manager: user interface: um yeah . got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control . project manager: user interface: um few uh buttons but uh this uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . um uh people uh do n't like it , uh so um well what uh i was uh thinking about was um uh keep the general functions uh like they are . so uh like uh the on-off uh button . uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you do n't have to change that . um my personal uh preferences um . use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . so um wh what i was th uh thinking about was um you 've got um uh this the remote control uh project manager: industrial designer: user interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh i dunno um and um here you 've got a s kind of a display . it 's a touchscreen . so um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a d_v_d_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uh playing uh reverse uh . and um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . so um this button is for a d_v_d_ or so um for every um device you 've got a uh a f a b a part uh display of a part buttons . so uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device . project manager: hmm . user interface: so uh that 's uh my uh idea about it . project manager: 'kay . user interface: um yeah and uh let 's see . uh yeah . so a touchscreen . uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . we better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah . everybody uh have to use it so uh ol even even old people um young people . so uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . so uh um project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . uh yeah . that was uh my uh part of it . project manager: okay . user interface: so project manager: anybody has questions about the technical functions ? industrial designer: well project manager: industrial designer: i think if we are gon na use a touchscreen uh we 're gon na go way above the twelve and a half euros . project manager: yeah . user interface: n i i do n't think so . uh you got uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . s um it 's uh not uh in colour or something . project manager: touchscreen . user interface: uh it 's just uh um one colo uh yeah . uh i seen uh w uh something on the internet uh not today but uh a few uh weeks ago . uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it 's uh for uh twenty uh euros or uh less uh . project manager: huh . user interface: so it 's possible . marketing: hmm . project manager: 'kay . that 's nice . uh marketing: well it would certainly make a fancy design . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: but the it would n't be very robust . marketing: so industrial designer: it 's very fragile and you can get scratches on it . marketing: that is true . project manager: that 's right . user interface: yeah that 's true . project manager: uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ? marketing: we would have to look into that . project manager: uh and then we have a little discussion about the requirements and uh design . user interface: uh . industrial designer: that 's . okay . marketing: yeah . project manager: marketing: project manager: i think it 's going to uh it 's not too much . okay . industrial designer: okay i 've got a presentation about the working design . um first about how it works . it 's really simple of course . everybody knows how a remote works . the user presses a button . the remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the tv . the tv switches to the frequency , or what function it is . so we 've got um the the plate . it gots conductive disks for every button . when the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the led and transmits tranmi transmits its to the tv . it 's a very simple device , technically speaking . so this is a schematic overview . you 've got the buttons . the power source . and uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . the chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . when you press a button you can actually see your pressed button . well um i think we should use default materials , simple plastics . keep the inner workings simple , so it 's robust . uh i think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface , because if you 're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . and uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . so it 's , in my idea , it 's uh it 's gon na be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . that 's it . project manager: okay . thank you . okay . marketing: project manager: uh okay now i hope everybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . um i 'm the project manager so i 'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: project manager: um that 's , we 've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for tv . um that 's because uh it will be too complex user interface: okay . project manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wan na have it uh for more functions . so it has to be simple . user interface: mm . project manager: uh another point is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . and uh it 's a function we do n't need in our remote control . marketing: project manager: um internet is also mentioned in a function we can use . uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . uh that 's the the market we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . um this is uh a bit pity for the marketing uh expert . marketing: user interface: project manager: because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . so we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , and the other way round . and we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . so it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . and uh we have to be uh very clear on this point as well . so i suggest let 's have a discussion on the control functions . yeah . marketing: so is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ? project manager: uh we can see if we can find a way uh between the functions we wan na use and the market we wan na reach with our product . um user interface: mm . marketing: yeah 'cause you 're you 're saying that teletext is gon na be an old feature and it 's not gon na be used anymore anyway pretty soon . and new tvs will have internet access on them . project manager: marketing: but i think if you 're targeting people of forty plus , the chance that they will have a tv with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim . user interface: yeah . marketing: in addition people indicated that teletext simply was an important feature for the remote control . so i think it 's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . i 'm pretty much against it . project manager: against the no teletext ? user interface: mm . marketing: yes . project manager: um marketing: besides that , i think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . but i mean if i s if i see this , it 's i think we 're just gon na go for another project manager: yeah it 's it is user interface: forty project manager: standard remote . marketing: pretty project manager: no i think we can marketing: and not innovative project manager: i think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttons marketing: remote control . project manager: which were also mentioned . uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make a remote control with uh just two or three buttons . or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wan na reach because it is forty percent of the market . user interface: yeah . project manager: and um if you look in holland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it 's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now . marketing: yes but it 's not the biggest part of the market . project manager: no . marketing: and besides that , they 're not very critical so i mean they do n't really care what the remote control is like . they 'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable . project manager: but do n't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think the people think that 's the the device i 've looked for although i did n't realise it . user interface: project manager: so let 's try it . marketing: no . i think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remote control . user interface: yeah . marketing: people of forty plus , i mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it 's okay with them . project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: i think that if we 're if we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um i do n't know if you 've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ? marketing: so project manager: yeah . it 's a big success . industrial designer: yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , i think . project manager: very big success . marketing: i have n't heard of it . project manager: yeah . uh . i think so as well . user interface: mm . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: we do n't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . we just change our focus on the project , and i think we can uh we can sell this . project manager: uh i simply think um user interface: project manager: uh that the new products we are gon na make , uh spef specifically design , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . and i think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . 'cause what you told is the channel selection is important . volume selection , power and teletext . marketing: yes . user interface: mm . project manager: okay . um user interface: yeah . marketing: yes . but obviously the board tends to disagree . project manager: no we we have n't voted yet , so user interface: project manager: uh i think teletext can be uh um can be a function as well . but only if uh if it wo n't higher the the cost , because i do n't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but i do n't think it will be a problem . or is teletext a user interface: but um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles . project manager: yeah . user interface: so it 's marketing: yeah , also . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . so i suggest uh marketing: i think it 'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext . user interface: it 's project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: is anybody um really against teletext ? industrial designer: no . project manager: no ? just that , that we just keep the teletext . i think that 's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . maybe we can make that um another point of advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . for elderly people they can think , oh i wan na have subtitles , user interface: yeah yeah . project manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: uh that 's a good idea . project manager: um so i think teletext can v can be very useful in our advantage . um functionality should be few buttons , you said . marketing: yes . project manager: i think uh that 's very important we have a few buttons . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so to keep it simple . marketing: but i do n't think that 's really an issue any more 'cause well might be . user interface: if it 's only for televi marketing: but i mean it , if it 's only for tv you 're not gon na need a lot of buttons anyway . user interface: yeah . yeah . project manager: no . marketing: you need a one to zero button , next channel , previous channel , user interface: yeah . marketing: volume up , volume down , and some teletext buttons but project manager: yeah . but do you need user interface: so we can s we can skip the display , marketing: i think if you if you only l user interface: so uh we do n't need it . project manager: but do you need the buttons for one to zero . marketing: nah . project manager: maybe c we can user interface: uh marketing: think if you 're gon na include teletext you do . i think many people like to use that . project manager: maybe we can use uh user interface: yeah . marketing: 'cause if you should , if you want to switch from channel one to like thirty five , you do n't wan na push the next channel button thirty five times . user interface: yeah . project manager: no , maybe we can implement the scroll button ? or a joystick like ? user interface: mm . project manager: there are other ways too . just look if you look at telephones . the sony telephone has a scroll button which is very useful in searching names or user interface: yeah . mm-hmm . yeah . marketing: that 's true but um i do n't think there are many tvs that can switch channels that fast . and so you would need like the tv would need an a function where you can actually view all channels and scroll through it . and i dunno if many channels would do have that . if many tvs have that . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . industrial designer: and besides that it 's um if we 're gon na focus on elderly people they 'll have to adapt . they 're not used to using scroll buttons . project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: so perhaps we should s stick to the basic layout . user interface: mm . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: the numbers yeah . yeah they can see how much buttons there are going to be on on the display , and if it 's too much we can uh reconsider it . but i think there wo n't be very much buttons . user interface: yeah . project manager: or there do n't have to be a lot . marketing: but i do n't think i think if you 're gon na make a remote control only to operate a tv , you there 's not much you can gain on um having as few buttons as possible . 'cause i think there are pretty many remote controls that can only operate a tv , which already only have the minimum number of buttons . i do n't think there 's much to be gained in that area . project manager: the number of buttons ? user interface: hmm . project manager: i think it 's very important in the in the design . marketing: yeah . project manager: you can make a very fancy design uh with putting the buttons on the right places . and if you have less buttons you can do a lot more with marketing: that is true but i think there 's simply not much to gain on the competition when you when you 're making a remote control only for to operate only the tv . project manager: to operate only the tv yeah . marketing: 'cause if you have a a remote control only to operate a tv there 's simply not a lot of buttons required . there 's not a lot of functions required so most existing remote controls simply do n't have a lot of buttons either . project manager: no . user interface: no . project manager: so . marketing: so i think it would be very hard to actually gain on the competition here . project manager: 'kay . so we can marketing: that would that would cost a a big marketing expedition project manager: yeah . that 's right . marketing: which was one of the arguments to make it only for the tv because we did n't have the time to market a lot . project manager: yeah . so you suggest we could better um focus on for example the docking station . user interface: project manager: uh uh like other functions . instead of f of less buttons . marketing: maybe . well yeah i think , mean we obviously need a good way to position all the buttons and but i do n't think we should spend very much time in that . project manager: mm . no . do you think the docking station will uh is allowed in the budget we have ? industrial designer: it should be possible yes . if it 's not too fancy . project manager: 'cause it can be user interface: no . project manager: no . industrial designer: and if the remote stays rather small , it should be possible project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: no . project manager: because i think that 's uh that 's a good advantage point as well . if we have a fancy-looking docking station industrial designer: yes . project manager: or very user interface: hmm . project manager: that 's a nice requirement . docking station . marketing: industrial designer: so we 're just gon na focus on the extras ? project manager: i think so . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: mm . marketing: yeah i think maybe we should do some research into what elderly people like to have in a project manager: yeah . marketing: like to have extra in a new remote control . project manager: that 's a good point . um you said they easily get lost as well . marketing: yes well fifty percent of the people indicated that remote control tended to get lost . project manager: yeah . so maybe we should implement the audio sign , or something . marketing: yeah that was what i suggested . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like with your key-chain , if you whistle it goes uh it makes a sound . marketing: you have it on project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah user interface: hm . marketing: you have it 's on some phones too , which have a docking station . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: and you just press a button and the phone goes ringing . project manager: yeah . so marketing: so you know where it is . project manager: audio signal should be possible as well . i think it 's not too expensive . user interface: no . project manager: uh another point is the lcd screen . um i do n't know if that will rise the cost too much , because industrial designer: y i um i think we 'll have to choose between the docking station or the screen , 'cause project manager: yeah . it will be too much as well . user interface: mm . industrial designer: it 's uh marketing: i think since a lot of people indicated that a new remote control is hard to learn , and we 're focusing on elderly people here which tend to have a hard time understanding new devices , it might be a good idea to have just a little screen on it , which would explain a button if you press it . which would tell you what it does . project manager: yeah . marketing: and it would n't have to be touchscreen or a very expensive screen , project manager: based . user interface: okay . yeah . marketing: but project manager: just the lcd . oh just the normal screen . marketing: just a small screen project manager: that 's a good idea . so marketing: with two project manager: some extra info . feedback . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that 's a good idea as well . user interface: yeah . marketing: but i dunno if that would project manager: as the small screen . marketing: that would fit into the costs . project manager: extra button info . i think that should be possible as well . um let 's see what did we say . mm . more . should be fancy to , fancy design , easy to learn . few buttons , we talked about that . docking station , lcd . um general functions yeah . 'kay . and default materials . i think that 's a good idea as well , because um elderly people do n't mind if it 's a titanium cover or just a plastic one . user interface: project manager: so that does n't really matter . user interface: mm . marketing: no . project manager: so i think we nee marketing: i think probably elderly people would be a little bit more careful with their remote controls than youngsters . project manager: uh let 's um specify the target group . because are we talking about elderly elderly people or people from forty to eighty . because i think what we 're going to design now is for people above sixty , maybe . user interface: mm . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: uh what do we want ? if we want um a with uh for example the the telephone for elderly people , we can marketing: i think project manager: target the real elderly people . marketing: i think that would be a if we should do something like that it would be a , i think it would be really good for uh for the image of the company . project manager: yeah . marketing: and i think , i think there would be a good market for it . project manager: so that 's the marketing: if we 're able to really bring an innovative product . project manager: now you 're talking about sixty to eighty for example . marketing: yeah the really project manager: yeah . user interface: mm . project manager: sixty . marketing: but i 'd have to look into that a little more . project manager: okay . and different cultures . are we industrial designer: well i do n't think they have different television sets uh project manager: okay . user interface: mm . industrial designer: in uh every country . project manager: no . user interface: no . industrial designer: 'cause project manager: we 've got five minutes left just now . user interface: so 'kay . project manager: small warning . marketing: 'kay . and with uh the little screen in it , which explains the buttons . you could i think we n it would be a lot easier to project manager: should marketing: adapt it to different cultures . project manager: yeah . in different languages , you know . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: or you have to put a language button in it , user interface: right . project manager: but that will be a bit unnecessary i think . user interface: no . yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: it 's better to put it on different markets with it all . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . so industrial designer: yeah . project manager: that 's the the target . uh then a few small things . marketing: project manager: uh okay . i will put the minutes in the project uh project document folder . um what we 're going to do for the next meeting is the industrial designer will do the components concept , user interface designer the user interface concept , and the trend-watching . so just keep in mind the things we 've said about the target group , uh requirements , and the trends which are uh going on . and uh specific instructions will be sent to you by uh the personal coach . so um marketing: 'kay . project manager: i thank you for this meeting . and i think we have a lunch-break now . marketing: that 's good . project manager: so that 's a good thing . user interface: yeah . marketing: { vocalsound }

marketing 's research about user requirements showed that 50 % of the people tended to find their remote controls lost . therefore , the docking station as an extra would help users find its position . to achieve this the audio sign would be implemented . when users pressed a button , the phone on the remote control went ringing and indicated its position .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

this meeting is mainly about three presentations from three team members . first , it was industrial designer 's presentation on the working design of the remote control ; then , user interface introduced the layout design of the remote control ; and at last , marketing made a report on the user experience survey and potential user-friendly functionalities . at the same time , various discussions among team members went on concerning their presentations , on the industrial design , user interface , appearance and functionality of the remote control .

what questions did team members raise concerning industrial designer 's presentation ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

industrial designer considered batteries as the energy source . marketing thinks that changing batteries all the time could possibly be annoying , so she suggests other energy options like solar charging . but industrial designer refutes this problem because people change batteries simply every six months . user interface raised the question on the operational distance of the infra-red signal and hoped that the remote control could be equipped with a strong signal stream . but project manager rendered it unnecessary because tv is always put in a short distance . later the team discussed the necessity of through-wall signal and bluetooth , and decided that this idea remained an idea for some budget reasons and the lack of necessity .

what did the group discuss about user interface 's presentation ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

in the presentation from user interface , he first made sure of the position of the team ’ s remote control —— a remote control with basic functionalities and with some improvements . the must-haves would include volume control , channel keys up-down , a numerical keypad , a mute button and would exclude the lock button which was discussed in the precedent meeting . he made an introduction of two types of remotes : engineering centred ones which provide a lot of functionality and user centred which focus on the easiness of use . later , the team discussed the locking function which project manager expected greatly , and also on the integration of the corporate image into the design of the remote control . at last , regarding the layout of the remote control , user interface would like to make some improvements over two buttons concerning the ergonomic design .

what did the team think of the locking function when discussing user interface 's presentation on the layout of the remote control ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

user interface said the locking function is a novel idea and a good inspiration . he had never seen a locking functionality . but user interface thought that the locking function might be unnecessary , while project manager thought it probably should be easy to be realized in a physical form like a cover , a switch or a flip thing .

what did the group discuss about marketing 's presentation ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

the team discussed the topic of potential user-friendly features for the old and the young . marketing mentioned the probable insertion of tracking devices which recognize personal preferences , like voice activator , because people may easily forget the position of the remote controls in the room . however , later the team decided to put aside this idea for budget reasons . then , marketing mentioned rsi , or repetitive strain injury , which should be taken into consideration in the process of ergonomic design . industrial designer mentioned that this could probably be avoided by touching a button instead of pressing a button .

what was the conclusion and summary that project manager extracted after the three presentations from team members ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

the team is going to design a basic television remote which looks cool and is safe to be used . as for the industrial design of the remote control , due to reasons of budget and simplicity , the remote control will use infrared signals instead of bluetooth , and the energy source would be batteries .

what did the team discuss about the appearance of their remote controls ? </s> project manager: think we can first industrial designer: mm . user interface: right it was function f_ eight or something . industrial designer: tha user interface: this one right there . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay . industrial designer: who is gon na do a powerpoint presentation ? user interface: think we all industrial designer: you will as well ? user interface: huh . oh i thought we all were . industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah , i have one too , okay . project manager: . user interface: s industrial designer: yep . marketing: . user interface: whoops i forgot to put the thing on project manager: right . i just wan na 'cause basically i ca n't re i 've really crap at remembering everyone 's name so i just wan na rather than going uh miss marketing and miss this and miss that wanted to know your names again . user interface: okay . industrial designer: okay i 'm project manager: just gon na leave this up here 'cause i 'll you know . so industrial designer: okay . user interface: yeah . sure , that 's a good idea . industrial designer: i 'm catherine with a c_ . c_a_t_h_ e_r_ i_n_e_ . project manager: okay , and user interface: uh gabriel . project manager: gabriel . e_l_ is it ? user interface: e_l_ . project manager: 'kay . and you 're s r r_e_i_s_s_ marketing: i am reissa . r_e_i_s_s_a_ . double s_ a_ , yeah yeah . sorry . project manager: okay . marketing: project manager: 's just a bit nicer calling people by their names i think . industrial designer: right . user interface: industrial designer: true . project manager: uh , right . marketing: mm 'kay . project manager: okay , right , welcome to meeting b_ . um this is gon na go a lot better than the last meeting , basically , industrial designer: user interface: project manager: uh 'cause i know what i 'm supposed to be doing now . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: i am your project manager , and , uh yeah , i 'm just here to industrial designer: project manager: sort of liaise between the three of you and get things going , get people talking and and i 'm gon na be making notes and sending them off to the powers that be and stuff basically . um right , this for the purposes of this meeting what this meeting is all about is um i 'm gon na have some presentations from all three of you , what you 've been working on for the last wee while , when you have n't been getting hit with spam on your computers and and , you know , filling out silly questionnaires and things . industrial designer: marketing: project manager: but hopefully you 've been actually been doing something productive . so we 're gon na each of you gon na give us a litt a little presentation . um . marketing: mm . project manager: then we 're gon na work , you know , from each of your presentations . we 'll we 'll uh talk about what we actually need as a final coming together of it all . um and then we 'll , yeah , we 'll sort of conclude anything else comes up at the end of it . industrial designer: how long is the meeting ? project manager: this meeting it 's not very long . it 's uh probably down to about thirty five minutes now . so i want each of your presentations to not be too long , five five minutes , something like that . industrial designer: okay . no problem . project manager: um if you have n't done a powerpoint thingy , it does n't matter , it it just it just says that you it 's that 's just one particular medium . if you have n't had time to prepare one , you can draw stuff on the noteboard , you can talk to us , you can you know however you want to do your little presentation , basically , you can . do n't feel pressurised into using this thing . 'cause i do n't . industrial designer: project manager: uh okay . so um . you okay over there ? reissa , marketing: i 'm fine . yeah . project manager: are you uh b are you joining in with this meeting here marketing: i uh yeah , yeah . project manager: or are y or are y or are you are you just are you just uh doing some internet shopping there ? user interface: think she 's finishing up her presentation . marketing: d i mean , i i 'm finishing off my presentation . industrial designer: marketing: no no . uh i 'm done . okay . project manager: okay , jolly good . alright , let 's have um well , we all know that it 's it 's a remote control that we 're gon na be dealing with . marketing: mm . project manager: i think the first thing we should look at is um probably the um what it is that it is actually supposed to be . so that 's gon na be you catherine , industrial designer: okay . project manager: if we wan na hear from you first . industrial designer: okay . um just connecting this . project manager: you do n't have to worry about screwing it in just industrial designer: are we getting i really ? project manager: there you go . industrial designer: okay . cool . okay . so i 've got a very quick uh uh . okay . marketing: industrial designer: so the working design , i 've got a very quick presentation on this , so um i 've oh no , you ca n't see a thing . oh well , i 'm gon na draw it on the board then . it 's in blue uh , and i could n't change it . user interface: oh . project manager: ah . industrial designer: we it 's fine on my screen , but never mind . so um the idea is that we 've got the energy source um , which in our case will pr , oh well okay , never mind . so um i think maybe uh two batteries , i dunno what they 're called six , or something like that . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: uh and then um then on the uh remote control itself will have um the sender for the signal , which could be uh an infra-red signal , um which will be sent by an electronic chip . and uh the chip will be controlled by the user interface . so we 'll hear about that later from gabriel . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and uh the sender will send to the telly itself an infra-red signal to tell it to switch on or switch channels . um and that 's it really for the working design . project manager: great . okay . industrial designer: sorry the presentation was n't very uh clear but project manager: i prefer the pe i prefer the human touch personally . industrial designer: really ? cool . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , should i erase this or project manager: do you wan na just give us a moment , i just wan na copy this down . industrial designer: okay . project manager: um i dunno if you guys have got any questions for catherine on any of this ? industrial designer: fine . or suggestions ? marketing: is a battery like the only way of industrial designer: well , it 's just , you do n't want it plugged in really , s user interface: yeah , alternate energy source , like win wind power or project manager: yeah , you blow on it and i industrial designer: in indoors . marketing: no , no user interface: bicycle power . marketing: no i meant like industrial designer: marketing: no 'cause like cha 'cause always changing um um batteries can get like annoying . industrial designer: marketing: the battery 's down and maybe , i dunno , solar charged ? industrial designer: i dunno , swi i th i th i think changing your batteries once every six months is not really a pain , but project manager: yeah , it 's worked for the last fifty years you know . marketing: mm . yeah . user interface: one question i have , and i do n't know how much control we have over this is um , as far as the infra-red signal , do we have control over , you know , how far away you can be from the receiving unit , the the tv , and still have it be operational ? i mean , maybe we want one with a strong signal stream . project manager: how far away is your television ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: it 's never gon na be more than it 's never gon na be , you kno unless you 've got a tv the size of a football pitch , it 's not does n't have to go that far , user interface: uh industrial designer: well , the thing is uh you you do n't project manager: does it ? does n't have to go through a wall , because you 're not gon na be looking through a wall . user interface: that 's true . marketing: yeah , but if like you 're on the phone in the other room and you need turn television off or something and you do n't really want to go into the put the telephone down , and go into the other room . industrial designer: well , we can make the the signal strong enough to go through walls if if you fancy it . i did n't think about that but marketing: how about bluetooth ? instead of using infra-red , use bluetooth . industrial designer: why not ? i just think that it 's it 's gon na cost more marketing: is n't that a better signal ? project manager: yeah , yeah i d it sounds like you you w do n't wan na overcomplicate things . industrial designer: and i 'm i 'm not sure it 's you 're gon na use it . marketing: mm . project manager: you know we do n't need it . industrial designer: it 's a fancy idea uh it 's quite nice , but then i do n't th i dunno , either you if you wan na watch the telly you 're in the room , project manager: yeah , exactly . industrial designer: you are gon na project manager: basically , we 're we 're desi we 're designing and marketing a television remote control unit . industrial designer: but project manager: we 're not w w w w designing something that you can plug in a headset to and and you know connect to your laptop computer and stuff . it 's uh marketing: mm . industrial designer: oh , we can we can keep the idea if you i we can see at a later stage , maybe , i do n't marketing: 's just an idea . project manager: okay . right , well done , catherine . um gab gabriel let 's uh let 's hear from you on on on such things . user interface: okay . industrial designer: do you need the border ? user interface: uh i 'm just gon na use the powerpoint uh . industrial designer: okay . sorry . user interface: technical . okay . marketing: user interface: okay , so , while this is warming up , marketing: adjusting . user interface: there it is uh . marketing: yeah . user interface: so i 'm doing the user interface design . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , and basically uh , as far as methods , i was i was looking looking at looking at uh already existing remotes , trying to find some inspiration from designs that are already out there . thinking of what we can retain , what we can do away with , uh what we what we can perfect a little bit as far as design um . we do n't want to do something that 's too radical of a change , i guess , i mean people want a remote that 's familiar , that has their favourite functionalities um and and does the basics , but project manager: mm yeah . user interface: um so we can improve what 's out there and maintain that , the basic functionality that people want . um so things that seem like absolute must-haves uh would be a volume control , um so up-down keys for that , uh channel keys up-down , but then also a numerical key pad so that they can just key directly to the channel that they want , rather than doing up-down , and uh a mute button . uh one thing that i did n't include here , that i forgot that we talked about last time , was doing um some sort of lock uh function . project manager: okay . user interface: uh , i do n't i dunno , uh that 's one possibility . and so in the research that i was doing there 's basically two types of remotes , ones that are engineering centred and ones that are more user centred , which i do n't know if i can access the web page from here , but i can show you uh . yeah . so this is a engineer centred one , so you see it 's rather busy , but it also lets you play your movie , stop your movie , fast-forward , all this , um freeze frame . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: uh and this is a user centred one . uh it 's it 's easier to g just glance at this and see what 's possible to do , project manager: yeah . user interface: you 're not gon na be staring at it for five minutes . project manager: great . user interface: and i judging from what what we all talked about during our last meeting i kind of gathered that that 's what we were going after , uh or the direction we were going in at least . um . so , the engineering centred ones uh provide a lot of functionality , but it can be a little bit overwhelming , so the user centred ones just focus on ease of use . uh and this sort of overlaps with what the marketing person uh , reissa , marketing: user interface: because uh we we need to find out what what people want before we make firm decisions on this . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . marketing: . user interface: so uh , yeah , that 's me . project manager: great . okay . now that 's i just have a q a q question for you . this w um research that you 've been doing looki looking at other , you know , existing units stuff . um have you found that anyone else has do has looked into the locking function or user interface: no that that that seemed like a novel idea as f as far as i know . i mean obviously another exists like you like you said in in mobile phones . project manager: yeah . user interface: that was sort of the inspiration for it . um i 've never seen that with in in all my years in in the remote business . project manager: yeah . user interface: i 've , have n't i 've never seen a locking functionality . i dunno , what uh do you guys have a a yea or nay on that a feeling about whether that 's really necessary ? project manager: um i would say it 's if it 's simple to do , which i think it probably should be , user interface: yeah . project manager: even if it 's a physical , you know , a f a like a f a physical switch or a physical cover for the remote , even something like that , um then yes , user interface: mm-hmm . 'kay . project manager: it 's like , you know , like s you said earlier on ab ab ab a flip thing , something like that , user interface: right . project manager: but you know being physical . look into . um i 've had word down from head office that something that we should be centred well , something we should take into account is um we 've got ta keep the corporate image within this remote control unit . it 's got ta d look like it 's in the r_ and r_ . user interface: mm . project manager: you know , the the company it 's it 's , from what i can see from our other products , are yellow with blue writing on them . um . marketing: mm . user interface: right . and our motto is is we put the fashion in electronics . project manager: we put the fashion in electronics . there you go . user interface: i think i think we have to carry that mental . marketing: mm . project manager: so it 's kinda got ta look it 's got ta look new and s you know something fashionable . if if remote control well , if telephones can be fashionable , then maybe remote control units can be . user interface: mm . marketing: mm . user interface: well yeah these , i think , we can so we talked about the layout in my presentation and what i did n't mention yet really is is the sort of like the ergonomic design . project manager: yeah . because we need user interface: i t i think we can make big improvements over these two that you see here , i mean . project manager: yeah . great . industrial designer: user interface: uh , everything is going t ergonomic , you know , there 's you know mice for your computers that are very ergonomic and keyboards and that could be one of our niches p sort of uh uh in the market , i guess . um . project manager: okay , fantastic . marketing: okay . project manager: right , well done , gabriel . marketing: . project manager: um reissa . let 's plug you in , baby . marketing: where does it go into ? user interface: . marketing: here ? user interface: yeah . marketing: the blue thing . user interface: uh , yeah , this is getting all . marketing: user interface: mm . marketing: . user interface: yeah , then you just have to do function f_ eight and it should come up . marketing: well , function f_ eight . no project manager: yeah , w it it just takes a wee while . user interface: yeah , it just takes a second uh . marketing: oh . come on . right . okay . . okay . well , for our marketing report uh we observed remote control users in a usability lab , and also gave so this is research and we also gave participants um questionnaires to fill out . um total number of people tested were a hundred just so you know , so that hundred people were tested and these were the findings . so seventy five per cent of users find the remote control ugly . okay , so they do n't like the look of the remote control . um eighty f eighty per cent of them would spend more money if the rem remote control looked really cool and fancy . so i think we all agree with that . um current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user . so , they do n't like like the way they operate it does n't like match how people behave . um per cent of the users say that they only use ten per cent of the buttons on a remote , so probably if you have like one , two , three , four , five , the whole up to z ten , they probably do n't use those , they only use the up and down channel . project manager: 'cause we 've only got five channels . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: marketing: that 's another thing . um seventy five per cent of users say they zap . not quite sure what they mean , zap , goes like . project manager: i think that 's k flicking quickly between channels . user interface: yeah , you wan na navigate the channels quickly i guess . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . um takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote . i think especially for uh the older generation . i know my grandmother does n't like mobile phones , takes ages to work how to use . anyway um and they also remotes often get lost in the room , so nobody can find them . user interface: mm . marketing: so maybe tracking devices is a good idea . project manager: wow . marketing: um personal preferences . project manager: you are a child of technology , are n't you ? marketing: um so yeah um i was thinking something easy to use , especially for older people . um has to look really cool , flashy groovy for people to buy it . and it 's easy to find , so i do n't know whether maybe and also we asked them whether they wanted whether they 'd be interested in um voice activating . industrial designer: marketing: so voice activation . so and this was what we came up with . then if you look fifteen to twenty five this is age , sorry , age groups . so fifteen to twenty five said like ninety two ninety one per cent of them said yes . project manager: so there you go , yeah . marketing: um so basically the majority except for the forty five to fifty five year olds for some reason did n't want a voice activated one . and neither did the older generation , but the younger generation who we are catering for , like who have most of the money nowadays , do want a voice act speech recognition in a remote . industrial designer: project manager: uh but do the younger generation have the money ? they they do n't . user interface: no i would i would say the older the older people , yeah . project manager: it 's older generation , they 're the ones that have gone out and marketing: well the twenty five to thirty five year old , and thirty five , and the thirty five to forty five , forty five point seven per cent say no , so project manager: people people from the age of thirty f there 's a big drop off there . marketing: project manager: for people up to the age of thirty five , you 're kinda saying , yeah , they want it . um but no they 're not sort of most people that have the money are people from the age of thirty five to fifty five , user interface: yeah , that would be my guess as well . project manager: uh 'cause they 're the ones that have been working for twenty years . marketing: so they do n't project manager: um d and tha marketing: well project manager: and that 's a that 's quite a minority there , so yeah , it 's not even like fifty fifty that 's th thirty five per cent . marketing: these guys are growing up . user interface: what about just from the the prospective of our manufacturing cost ? i mean if if it 's twelve fifty per unit . project manager: yeah . user interface: i mean , okay , there 's marketing: voice activation might not be the best . project manager: i would say scra i 'd say scrap that straight off . user interface: uh . marketing: um also with um with buttons , a thing called r_s_i_ , so wrist sense user interface: repetitive strain uh rep repetitive strain injury marketing: huh ? user interface: or like from doing marketing: yeah , repetitive strains injury , so they do n't i think people who watch tv maybe too often , keep changing channel hurts their wrist . industrial designer: well maybe they should n't watch so much tv then . marketing: i do n't think so . project manager: so y so it 's so it 's so you got user interface: project manager: so that 's something we should have a look into then i when desi when designing the ergonomics of marketing: yeah user interface: mm . marketing: maybe not so hard . user interface: mm . project manager: see have a look if um there 's any w any medical background we can find out about this . industrial designer: maybe it could be , instead of pressing button it could be just touching a marketing: yeah . project manager: let 's jus marketing: maybe project manager: we just want need to cover our arses so that people are n't gon na sue us in ten years ' time , say your remote control gave me repetitive strain injury . user interface: yeah , we should probably consult with our legal department uh . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . they 're having a lunch break at the moment , but yeah . industrial designer: marketing: yeah . project manager: i 'll see if i can get see if i can get hold of them for the next meeting . user interface: yeah . i think we can do some really in in that department , the the ergonomic department , we can make some some really good improvements . project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . maybe th the buttons not so high up so you do n't have to press so much , user interface: mm . marketing: or we just like flat buttons , something . yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: so that is me . project manager: that 's great , thank you very much for that , reissa . um okay , so we 've basically we 've decide we 've d we 've decided that it 's gon na be , you know uh , we 're going for a basic television remote . it 's got ta be safe to use , it 's got ta look cool . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got ta be cheap . s um . marketing: mm . project manager: now going back to the uh industrial design of it , you know , we were looking at whether to use maybe infra-red or bluetooth . i think , we should just go with the simplest option on everything , uh and that would be infra-red , energy source , that would be batteries . uh mean we we can look into using the s , you know , the little tiny weeny batteries , all like special long-lasting batteries . um . but a in there 's no i do n't think there 's any point in making a remote control unit that 's gon na last for fifty years , because technology will have changed and , you know , we wo n't have televisions in ten years ' time . so industrial designer: yep . project manager: i think we 're all um pretty sussed on that . um anyone have any questions ? everybody happy in their work ? marketing: mm . user interface: yeah , it seems like we 're all on the pretty much on the same page . project manager: now this is good , we 've got a good structure going on . we all know where we 're going to . have you been ge has have any of you lot been getting loads of crap spam on your computers ? user interface: oh it 's probably just you , 'cause you 're the project manager . industrial designer: . project manager: marketing: well , just questionnaires . project manager: yeah . user interface: sell trying to sell your things . project manager: yeah , stuff . marketing: project manager: um okay . do oh have you guys found out if we can if we can e-mail stuff to each other ? marketing: yeah , you can . project manager: right . do all you all know my e-mail address ? user interface: okay . no i do n't . i industrial designer: well , in the project announcement , you 've got the addresses , i think . marketing: i think he 's participant one , are n't you ? industrial designer: so project manager , it 's participant one at ami . user interface: uh oh , it 's just participant one oh okay . yeah . project manager: can you all d e-mail me your e-mail addresses ? marketing: project manager: . industrial designer: you have them i you have them , user interface: well it 's just w it 's just it 's just par participant one , participant two . industrial designer: but we 'll send you an e-mail . project manager: send me , yeah industrial designer: you want to have friends , do n't you ? project manager: yeah , okay . user interface: so are we headed towards like a b a big yellow and black remote as far as maybe that 's our next meeting that we discuss that . project manager: is it yellow and black or is it yellow and blue ? i i kind of thought it was blue writing on a yellow background , but i might be just going a bit user interface: well , it 's like white on i white and blue on a black background with white with yellow borders . project manager: okay . user interface: maybe that 's like getting ahead of ourselves . project manager: well , maybe you can come up with a few with a couple of different ideas ? industrial designer: it would n't be user interface: mm . marketing: ca n't we have different colours in the remotes , so somebody can choose different col project manager: well , see the thing is is we 've got ta keep the company image . marketing: like does it have to be of a certain ? user interface: mm . project manager: it 's got ta say people have got ta look at this remote control and instantly recognise that it 's a real reaction i product . user interface: mm . marketing: but if it 's a r_r_ , it would be real reaction , project manager: there 's loads of companies that called r_r_ . marketing: like if it had a symbol on it . user interface: mm . project manager: this is slog but this is the slogan , this is the the the the type . marketing: whoa . user interface: and this is something that came on down from from the higher ups , project manager: yeah . user interface: so , i mean , we are sort of beholden to them . marketing: so we have to have it one colour . project manager: well , not necessarily . but we have to incorporate it . user interface: not one colour , but the pattern needs to be recognisable . marketing: mm . project manager: not necessarily even if i it just has to ye but you have to look at the product and instantly know that it 's one of our products industrial designer: well you could project manager: as opposed to a sony product or a , you know , a panasonic product . marketing: mm . project manager: it 's got to so maybe , so you can have a look at our our other products and see if they all follow a s similar vein , perhaps . industrial designer: it could come but it could come in different colours and have the r_r_ colours just somewhere project manager: yeah . industrial designer: like just around the lock button could be the r_r_ logo or colours and project manager: yeah . marketing: mm . industrial designer: if . project manager: quite poss yeah . well this is all your department . mm okay . well , well done everybody . user interface: . project manager: and um , i think we uh stop for lunch now . user interface: yeah , pretty soon i think , i guess that 's now . marketing: are we are we finished ahead of schedule ? project manager: we might possibly have done . industrial designer: cool . user interface: alright , see you all soon . project manager: if we 've if we 've finished at five minutes before the meeting 's supposed to finish , then that means we get an extra five minutes for lunch . marketing: 'kay uh . project manager: yeah , there you go . right . i just have to there 's a few little bits and pieces i have to write down , but take your headsets off , kick back , smoke 'em if you got 'em . { vocalsound }

project manager insisted the manifestation of company image on the remote control , like the slogan , symbol or other recognizable patterns . marketing thought the remote controls should be in the same colour , while project manager thought it unnecessary . user interface suggested that the pattern needs to be recognisable . industrial designer gave an example that the rr logo or thematic colours could be placed around the lock button .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

the meeting was about the fiscal and social influence of brexit , especially focusing on the wales education system . the group was worrying that brexit would cut down the support from the eu to the uk , thus putting the wales universities in great dilemma . besides , the fact was that the less fiscal support from the eu , the less foreign students would apply for the wales universities . the members talked about several possible solutions , for instance , adjusting the syllabus to better meet both the students ' and the lecturers ' needs and providing them with better career prospects . what also mattered was the immigration policy which would be alluring to the foreign students if being reconsidered carefully .

summarize the political background and the aim of the group . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

the group was focusing on the potential influence to the wales education system due to the brexit . the members mentioned many institutions like the higher education funding council for wales and showed that these institutions had taken much action to deal with the problems . some of the institutions funded higher education in wales , and others might help those universities find a better way to transit . what the group aimed at was cooperating with the institutions and help the situation become better .

what did huw morris think of the `` no deal '' scenario when talking about the political background and the aim of the group ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

when discussing the dilemma that the wales universities were faced with at the moment , kirsty williams pointed out that many factors would affect the fiscal situation of the universities , including whether it would be a `` no deal '' scenario or a `` deal '' one . even though most worries were towards the `` no deal '' scenario , huw morris was confident that the higher education brexit working group had been meeting since september 2016 and recently officials had been visiting individual institutions to ensure that they were fully prepared for the potential fund problems .

what did eluned morgan think of further education when talking about the political background and the aim of the group ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

eluned morgan had been actively engaging with the fe sector and he found that those colleges are much localized , with only 71 eu apprenticeships and staff . the group was working hard to ensure that these 71 people would safely go through such a chaotic period . what 's also important was that as for fe , the relationship between the apprenticeships and the working community mattered much , which means they might have to improve the relationship between these 71 eu people and the local community .

what did the group talk about the admission problems of wales universities and corresponding solutions ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

hefin david pointed out that wales was the only country in the uk that witnessed a significant drop in applications from eu students . the group should have noticed that the available funding for those eu students had changed , and that was one of the reasons why fewer of them applied for wales universities this year . but fortunately , according to kirsty williams , close cooperation with hefcw and other institutions were always on the agenda to make sure that wales universities were fully prepared .

why did kirsty williams disagree with hefin david when talking about the admission problems of wales universities and corresponding solutions ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

hefin david thought that the wales government should be to blame for the fewest eu students applying for wales universities this year , however , kirsty williams considered it was too early to jump to the conclusion . not until november would they conduct the first census to get an exact number of the students enrolled . in addition , kirsty williams pointed out the fact that international students outside the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who came to wales institutions . there was no need to be so anxious about the number of the present applications .

what did kirsty williams think about swansea university when discussing the admission problems of wales universities and corresponding solutions ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

kirsty williams thought swansea university was quite a good example for them to learn from . during such a dilemma , swansea university found a solution that provided an attractive curriculum and offered courses that people really wanted to take . they delivered their curriculum in a fashion way , guaranteed good teaching , and had an appealing infrastructure , which all made good use to attract potential applicants . that was exactly what other institutions needed to do at present .

what did the group talk about the possible official solution to the problem with more funding , a new immigration policy and the help of the minister ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

the group laid their stress on mainly three aspects in terms of dealing with the problem at an official level , which respectively were adding more funding to the universities , implementing a new immigration policy , and asking for the minister 's help . with adequate funding , the institutions would be more likely to satisfy the research needs from the students . similarly , a more robust immigration policy might make it more appealing for those who would like to set down in wales . last but not least , making the minister be aware of the serious problem would also be important that the problem would then be brought to national meetings and discussed by more officials .

what did kirsty williams think of the additional funding to hefcw when discussing the funding to support wales universities to go through the financial problems ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

when discussing the funding to support wales universities to go through the financial problems , julie morgan mentioned that they have funded wales universities with 6.4 million dollars in 2017-18. kirsty williams added that they had actually made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and another £5 million had been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support . with the adequate funding , kirsty williams believed that there would be little need to worry about the fiscal problems of wales universities .

what did kirsty williams elaborate on the immigration policy when discussing the possible official solution to the problem ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

according to kirsty williams , he was not quite in favor of a new immigration policy at first , for when post-study work visas were first issued in the south-east of england , the outcome was not so satisfying . however , his attitude had changed . as the locals usually did not take foreign students as immigrants , the government should treat the foreign students and those who came from eu as the same , which is to say , a new immigration system should be set to ensure that eu students and all the other foreign ones would receive the same treatment when seeking a job in wales .

summarize the official commitments to help the wales universities to get through the transition period . </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

the group mentioned that wales government had promised a multi-annual commitment that it would help the wales universities to get through the transition period and operate well with enough funding . however , some of the members thought that they could not always rely on the government and should have a budget plan for themselves . for fear that they might only receive the governmental funding for those apprentices , the group agreed to keep the apprenticeship firmly , even if some areas like england had abandoned it .

why did eluned morgan disagree with suzy davies when talking about the official commitments to help the wales universities to get through the transition period ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

while talking about the official commitments to help the wales universities to get through the transition period , suzy davies compared the two kinds of multi-annual commitments that one was related to revenue and the other to capital . she did not think that either of them would work , however , according to eluned morgan , the official commitment related to capital would matter more under such a transition period . even if most people would focus on the revenue , they should pay attention to the capital for that it is exactly the capital that ensured the institutions to operate well under the dilemma .

why did llyr gruffydd disagree with eluned morgan when discussing the official commitments to help the wales universities to get through the transition period ? </s> lynne neagle am: good morning , everyone , and welcome to the children , young people and education committee . we 've received apologies for absence from janet finch-saunders . i 'd like to take this opportunity to welcome suzy davies to the committee , and to thank mark reckless and darren millar , who have left us , for their service and hard work as members of the committee . can i ask whether there are any declarations of interest , please ? no . okay . we will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of brexit on higher and further education . i 'm very pleased to welcome kirsty williams , cabinet secretary for education , and eluned morgan am , minister for welsh language and lifelong learning . can i just ask you to introduce your officials for the record , please ? kirsty williams am: bore da , lynne , and thank you for the invitation to join you . eluned and i are joined this morning by huw morris , who 's the group director at shell—skills , higher education and lifelong learning—and marie knox , who is deputy director , overseeing european transition . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you very much , and thank you for coming . we 'll go straight into questions , then , and the first questions are from suzy davies . suzy davies am: thank you . i 'd like to ask you both , if that 's okay , a little bit about preparedness . but if i could start with higher education , i understand that—i do n't know , it must be about 18 months ago now—ken skates told another committee in this place that there had been nine sector analyses done . presumably , one of those was he , because of the—well , welsh government had a presence , and still does , in brussels , related to higher education . apparently , those have now been superseded by work that 's been done by cardiff university . i do n't know if you 've got any comments on that research , or whether it 's been brought to your attention yet . kirsty williams am: well , suzy , following the vote , i was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education , to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact . so , in terms of preparedness , we started that group in the september , and that work from that group , which includes both he and fe , has been instrumental in helping the government form its views , which were articulated in the government 's white paper , 'securing wales ' future ' . there has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in london and europe becomes a little bit more clear , then it becomes a little less clear , and then a little bit more clear , but , bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field , we have been refining those approaches . each institution has been looking at their own institution , because , as you can imagine , although we have an overview of the sector , the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure , for instance , to the number of european union students that they have at their college , or the work that they might be doing with horizon 2020 , or their success—and there has been considerable success in the he field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the eu , in a 'no deal ' or in a 'deal ' scenario , is very , very different . but i do n't know if , huw , you want to talk any further . suzy davies am: maybe just to use the 'no deal ' scenario is probably the easiest , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: the 'no deal ' ? suzy davies am: well , yes , because that 's the worst-case scenario , so let 's look at that one . huw morris: as the cabinet secretary mentioned , the higher education brexit working group's been meeting since september 2016 and has been looking at that in general . more recently , when the prospect of no deal became talked about , officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness for that . as you 'll be aware , the funding for much of the activity is secured , we believe , even under a 'no deal ' scenario , until december 2020 ; that 's a letter we had from the chief secretary to the treasury . i think the research you 're referring to may be research that cardiff university has been doing with the bevan foundation and others . i know there 's a report due to be launched later today . we have been doing our own research and looking at the impact on he , fe and apprenticeship providers . suzy davies am: well , that 's really helpful because my understanding was that this cardiff university research had superseded all those nine sector analyses . huw morris: that may be true for the economy brief . certainly , there are published papers by max munday and a team at cardiff university on the impact of brexit on the welsh economy , but for he and fe and apprenticeship provision , it 's as the cabinet secretary outlined . suzy davies am: so , are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise , for example ? for he and fe for that matter . kirsty williams am: well , the higher education funding council for wales have been doing some specific work ; i ca n't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared . we have been doing some broad analysis , as i said , for the sector , looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk , bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution , a principle that they guard really jealously , and rightly so . so , we have been , as huw said , because the prospect of a 'no deal ' has become , perhaps , more to the forefront , officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us , as people who fund part of their activity , that they have their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios . we continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with . so , for instance , we continue to work with officials in westminster around erasmus+ provision in a 'no deal ' scenario , what a uk stand-alone project would look like , the impacts of a 'no deal ' on horizon 2020. so , we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individual institutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that . suzy davies am: well , if there is something that 's shareable , i 'm sure we 'd be very pleased to see it— kirsty williams am: anything that we 've got— suzy davies am: —particularly with fe , actually , because , of course , we have n't got a hefcw for fe ; you 're doing that regulation yourself . i 'd expect to see that type of work evidenced somewhere from within welsh government , and we would be able to see that then . eluned morgan am: so , if i could just make some points on fe . we 've been actively engaging with the fe sector . we 've spoken to every one of the colleges about how they see things developing . i think it 's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in he . suzy davies am: yes , because the student thing is n't such an issue , is it ? eluned morgan am: you 've got to remember that the fe colleges are much more anchored within their communities , they 're much more localised , and so , for example , the number of eu students in these colleges is significantly lower . the number of staff in these colleges—i think they 've analysed that there are only about 71 people . so , we 're keeping in touch with them and we 're letting them know what we are being told in terms of the home office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. but that's a much bigger issue , i think , for higher education . suzy davies am: what are they telling you about european social fund funding , though , because , as you say , they 're locally anchored—the impact on fe of esf funding is probably more significant than the issues we 're talking about with higher education . how are you finding this out ? is this through one-to-one conversations ? eluned morgan am: we are engaging with them all , and , obviously , we 're engaging with colegaucymru , who 've done their own analysis , and what we found , in particular , is that the real problems are probably in relation to esf funding and apprenticeships . but what you 've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial . so , if— suzy davies am: yes , that 's why i asked . eluned morgan am: —the economy nosedives , or if there 's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of brexit—then that will inevitably have an impact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer . so , it 's those kinds of things , but at the moment i think it 's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the fe sector just in relation to apprenticeships . suzy davies am: can i just come back finally on that , before handing over ? in both your areas of responsibility , there 's going to be an impact on welsh government in how it responds to that , as well . can you tell me a little bit about the european transition team , which i think is about building resilience within the welsh government to deal with the impacts of brexit ? is that a formal arrangement you have with officials ? i do n't really know much about this team , but it seems to meet fortnightly to get welsh government ready for brexit , so could you just give us some clues on this ? marie knox: yes , in terms of the european transition team , that 's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on european transition . so , i attend that group in relation to higher education and further education , and , obviously , other representatives in terms of agriculture , transport , the economy , et cetera . suzy davies am: it 's great that you 're on that group , but what does it actually do ? that 's the bit i was n't sure about . marie knox: i guess it provides the governance structure for the welsh government as a whole in relation to european transition . so , individual departments do their own work , and the european transition team provides the governance structure , and , also , they lead on the discussions with the department for exiting the european union , no . 10 , the joint ministerial committee—those kinds of ministerial arrangements . suzy davies am: thank you . i 've had enough time , i think . lynne neagle am: llyr . llyr gruffydd am: i 'll ask my questions in welsh , if i may . this discussion between hefcw and higher education , these challenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come , and the work that the government is doing with fe , i suspect , is happening at an organisational level . so , i just want to hear a little about where the student voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students . kirsty williams am: so , we have a close working relationship with the national union of students . i meet with them regularly , and officials are in constant touch with the student voice . they have been very clear , and i think there is a huge amount of consensus between the welsh government , what the universities are asking for and what the students are asking for . you 'll have seen , only earlier this week , the very powerful campaign by nus wales about the importance of erasmus+ arrangements . there is a huge amount to be gained for welsh students and young people participating in the erasmus programme . many of us , i know , have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies , and there 's a lot to be gained from it . we 've been very clear from the outset , as have the sector and the student voice , about the importance of participation in that scheme . nus are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty . our he institutions , to a greater extent than fe , have faculty staff from the eu—it runs at about 11 per cent . that adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions . clearly , that is a concern for students . they want to have the best teachers , they want access to the best learning opportunities , and we 've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff , making sure we send very clear messages that they 're very welcome and we value their contribution . nus , again , also value the diversity in the student population . again , as far as we 've been able to , we 've been able to give messages about the security of funding for european students for the next academic year . i wish i could go further , but that 's out of my hands . we 're working to the limits of what i feel comfortable in being able to guarantee without further guarantees from westminster . so , we 've been working closely with the student voice , and i think , llyr , what 's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the government , the institutions and student voice . so , that is making sure we send very clear messages about wales 's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both eu and international students , that we value the contribution of faculty , and that we want to be able to continue in horizon 2020. that 's especially important if we 're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system , as well as erasmus+ . the issue of post-study work visas , again , is very important . as i said , there 's a consensus , i think , between the government , the institutions and the students about what we need the uk government to achieve for us . lynne neagle am: before we move on to student recruitment , it 's increasingly the view of many experts that we 're heading for a 'no deal ' brexit . can i ask both of you what specific plans you 've put in place in the event of such a 'no deal ' brexit happening and us crashing out next spring ? eluned morgan am: well , i think it 's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal ' brexit , but obviously we need to think through very carefully what that might look like , and i think that scenario planning is starting to happen . i think it 's very different , again , for fe compared to he . so , in relation to fe , what we do have is funding—esf funding—which the uk government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. so , in march next year , if there is no deal , the immediate impact on fe is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared . the problem then becomes : what exactly is the deal with the eu in future , because we will have some kind of relationship , and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companies locally , and industries , to provide that link between training needs ? so , the colleges , basically , are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships , and so if the number of companies reduces , then that is likely to have an impact . so , there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others . farming is obviously one that we are concerned about , because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal . if your markets are not there , that could be quite an immediate impact . health and social care—obviously , we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are eu citizens . what is the impact ? are they going to feel unwelcome ? are they likely , then , to return home ? where will that skills gap , therefore , be ? so , that 's a problem for us . construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages . so , one of the things we 're doing is we 've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers , 'what is it that you need in terms of skills development ? ' and we are now asking further education colleges to respond to that need . so , rather than them just getting people through the college system , who are easy to get in because they 're doing courses that they 're excited about , let 's try and encourage them to do courses where we know there are skills shortages . so , that is a new structure that we 've developed that is already having an impact ; there 's a £10 million project there . so , we 're already putting things in place for those situations . in manufacturing , obviously , if there 's no deal , the rules of origin , that could have an immediate impact . just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there ; and hospitality and tourism . so , those are the sectors we have most concerns about , and all of them have very strong links to the fe sector . kirsty williams am: from the he perspective , from a point of principle , we just have to keep working towards some kind of deal . although the prospect of no deal , maybe , has risen up the agenda , we have got to be consistent in our messages to the westminster government : we need a deal . wales can not afford to crash out of the eu without a deal . if that worst-case scenario was to happen , because of the underwrite guarantee , actually , for european regional development fund and european social fund programmes in the he sector , it would be business as usual . and because of the current underwrite guarantee , the forthcoming bids for erasmus and horizon 2020 would be covered , but they would be the last applications that could be made . you 'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee , but from my understanding and our understanding of it , that would only give us third-country status for horizon 2020 and erasmus . what that does mean is that we would have limited access to the horizon 2020 programme , and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the welsh he sector under that programme , that would mean that we 'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work , because that 's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing . as i 've already said , we have made a guarantee for eu student support for the next academic year , but , without clarity from the treasury , i do n't think it would be prudent of me to commit welsh government to anything further than that . so , we continue to push the message that a 'no deal ' would be catastrophic . what can we do ? you 'll be aware that we have been working with universities wales to access resources under the european transition fund , under the global wales programme , to look to boost international marketing of the he sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector . and we continue to look at other opportunities within the eu transition pot of money to assist the universities and the fe sector in that regard . we also continue to look to respond to the reid review proposals , about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with uk research and innovation to make sure that , with any research money that comes out of that negotiation , wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . we 're going to move on , then , to talk about student recruitment . i 'm going to , because we 've got a lot of questions , appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible , please . hefin . hefin david am: how does the welsh government account for the fact that eu student applications in wales this year—that wales is the only country in the uk to have seen a significant drop ? kirsty williams am: okay , well , i think the first thing to remember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until , first of all , november and then the true picture , because some institutions , as you would know , have two admissions dates—we wo n't get the full picture until the spring . i think it was inevitable , given the change in government policy with regard to student support , which had previously allowed european students to benefit from a tuition fee grant , and given the fact that that option is no longer available to them , that that has had an impact on eu recruitment , and there 's no point trying to hide from that . hefin david am: so , together with leaving the eu , that 's a double-whammy effect that 's hitting wales harder than the rest of the uk . kirsty williams am: it just puts us in the same position as eu students applying to england , but it was inevitable . this was looked at by diamond . it was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy , and i think we see that reflected in the initial figure , although , as i said , we wo n't get the true picture until the first census in november , and then , ultimately , the final picture in the spring . hefin david am: how concerned are you by that ? kirsty williams am: clearly , we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the eu and from around the world . the fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on european union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that wales , up until now , has been successful in recruiting international students . so , the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students , because , actually , international students outside of the eu make up a bigger proportion of students not from the uk who come to our institutions . hefin david am: that 's a fair point , but it 's unfortunate timing , though , is n't it ? kirsty williams am: i think , from a public policy point of view and moving towards a sustainable way of funding our he sector , then both my priority and , i would say , the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of diamond , which is what we have done . hefin david am: okay , that 's fine . what about the fact that we 've got a relatively imbalanced higher education profile compared to other countries of the uk with regard to high , medium and low-tariff universities ? we 've got one high-tariff university , and they 're the ones that tend to show the growth in recruitment of eu students . are you concerned about that balance of profile in the he sector ? kirsty williams am: as i said in answer to your question earlier , there is a difference reflected in the exposure of institutions to eu and international students . i would argue that it 's not necessarily the case that institutions that are not high-tariff are not able to do very well in this sector . if you look , for instance , at swansea university—if you look at the work swansea university has done , that shows you what is possible . hefin david am: what is swansea 's success , then ? what can we learn from swansea ? kirsty williams am: what i think is important—and this is not about any one institution—what i think is really important is that we look to— . and i ca n't force institutions to do this . it 's a combination , i believe , for all universities , of getting their offer right—so , having a curriculum at their institution that is attractive and offers courses that people want to study . it 's about that curriculum being delivered in an excellent fashion , so high quality ratings for teaching , as well as having an infrastructure that is attractive to students . so , it 's all about getting the offer right and providing what students , both domestically and internationally , want . hefin david am: but the evidence would therefore suggest that that model of success that you 've just outlined is happening in swansea but it is n't happening in other institutions , and they 're seeing a drop . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , i think what we can see from cardiff , swansea and others is that it is possible to do very well in the sector . hefin david am: so , cardiff , swansea and bangor—but the others , not . kirsty williams am: as i said , what we can see is that , if you get the offer right , i think we have something very special that the he sector can market itself on . lynne neagle am: llyr , you 've got a supplementary . llyr gruffydd am: just coming back to the drop in eu students , you mentioned that one of the reasons probably is the change in the funding that 's available to students coming here . so , does that suggest that , under the current regime , wales was punching above its weight in terms of attracting students and we 've lost that advantage ? i know we 're gaining in other ways in introducing the new system , but really we 're not much different to england in terms of fees now , so why would they come to wales as opposed to going anywhere else ? kirsty williams am: i think you 're right ; there was an added incentive , potentially , to come to a welsh institution because of the availability of the tuition fee grant . that advantage is no longer there , which is why we need to work alongside the sector , as we 're doing with the global wales programme , to increase their ability to market he in the round across the world . i think we 've got a strong offer that we can speak to people about . i 'm very proud of what our institutions can deliver for people . it 's a fantastic , warm environment to come and study in , at great institutions . there 's something for everybody , whether you want to be in a city like cardiff or whether you want a coastal experience in a small town like aber . so , we 've got a lot to offer and that 's why it 's really important that , although we have seen a change in the tuition fees , which may have an impact , we are investing with universities , for instance , in the global wales programme . lynne neagle am: in terms of the drop that we 've seen in wales , which is differential amongst institutions , will you be taking any specific action to try and prevent brexit exacerbating that ? kirsty williams am: we are working with hefcw and individual institutions , as i said , to test their preparedness . we ca n't tell them what to do in that sense , but we can , because of our governance arrangements and hefcw 's monitoring arrangements , continue to test with them . i meet regularly with vice-chancellors and separately with the chairs of the institutions and separately again with hefcw representatives , and the sustainability of the sector and recruitment issues is always something that is on the agenda . lynne neagle am: thank you . julie . julie morgan am: the additional £6.4 million that went to hefcw in the 2017-18 year , which i think you say is partly because of brexit and partly because of demographic and recruitment challenges , what do you expect to see as a result of that spending ? kirsty williams am: that funding was allocated , as i said , to enable hefcw to deal with any short-term implications arising out of demographic changes , because we 've seen a drop in the number of 18-year-olds , and the initial implications of eu transition . it was allocated as part of hefcw 's overall grant in aid , and therefore the council was given discretion as to how it was to be apportioned to the sector . the money was brought forward a year , because , in conversations with hefcw and the institutions , they felt that that money would be more useful earlier on . so , it was money that was brought forward into the allocation for 2017-18 , as opposed to 2018-19 , because they wanted to have that resource earlier rather than later . with regard to additional resources , you 'll be aware that we have made an additional resource of £5 million available to mitigate the freeze in tuition fees , and £5 million has been made available to hefcw to kick-start the work on postgraduate support until we 're in a position to fully implement diamond at the postgraduate level . julie morgan am: you say that the money is used at the discretion of the universities . so , you do n't have an analysis of how that was spent . kirsty williams am: the financial allocation , as i said , was agreed with the funding council and it was there to help universities with any cash flow issues , but if you 'd like further details i can provide those as much as i 'm able . julie morgan am: i think it would be interesting if we know what the money was spent on and , of course , that money is now not available for the next financial year , so there 's no way of carrying on what they were doing with it , presumably . kirsty williams am: well , as i said , it was part of the overall allocation to hefcw . with specific regard to dealing with the impact of brexit , you 'll be aware that we have reached an agreement in principle on the funding of £3.5 million to the global wales initiative . this was an application that came in from universities wales looking at specifically targeting and beefing up international work and international recruitment work to support them at this time , and we 're currently working with universities wales on the exact details and outcomes they would expect from that investment . julie morgan am: and do you have any estimate of how many students you hope to attract by that ? kirsty williams am: that is subject to continuing negotiations with universities wales before we let any contracts with them . what 's important is that that work is based on research that has been done by universities wales to look at the optimum markets that we should be targeting , specifically the united states of america and vietnam . julie morgan am: and will this money be used equally between all the universities ? kirsty williams am: we expect that all institutions—should they have a desire to participate—will be able to be assisted , as well as the overall global branding from universities wales and the new study in wales initiative . julie morgan am: thank you . i think we 've covered the eu student fees , have n't we ? lynne neagle am: okay . do you want to ask question 12 ? julie morgan am: has the welsh government explored the possibility of looking at different immigration rules for international and eu students who may wish to study here ? kirsty williams am: okay . well , with regard to immigration , clearly , this is something , at the moment , that is out of our hands , and i have to say , it has n't got off to a great start when initially the post-study work visas were issued just for a number of institutions in the south-east of england , with no consultation with us and i do n't believe with the scottish government either . so , we have campaigned , pushed , cajoled , lobbied , and i was very glad that in december last year , the home office did then make that scheme available to cardiff and to trinity saint david . we continue to press the point that we do not believe that , first of all , international students should be included in any immigration targets . i think all the evidence suggests that the british public do n't regard international students as immigrants , and therefore we do need to make sure that they are taken out of the targets and we can continue to press that message with the uk government . at the moment , you 'll be aware that welsh government has looked at a specific piece of work on whether there was any scope for specific immigration policy for wales , although i must say that was mostly in the field of actually the workforce rather than students . you 'll be aware that this week the government 's migration advisory committee—there are so many committees these days—have said that they do n't believe that there is a case for a separate provision for eu students , as opposed to international students . but we want an immigration system that makes it as easy as possible for those students who want to benefit from education in wales , and indeed the uk , to be able to do so . lynne neagle am: thank you . llyr . llyr gruffydd am: so , what are we doing from now on in then ? are we just waiting to see or are we continuing to push ? kirsty williams am: no—gosh—llyr , we continue to push the case at the official level , and at the moment , i 'm trying to convene a quadrilateral , if it can be quadrilateral in the sense that northern ireland are n't up and running—but certainly with officials from northern ireland . we 're trying to arrange another quadrilateral between myself , the he minister for england and the new he minister for scotland . if i can speak candidly , i do n't believe that there 's any difference between our view , with regard to the status of international students , and the views of english ministers within the department in england . it is convincing the home office of that case . so , i do n't think we need to persuade sam gyimah about the importance of this . jo johnson got , i think the current minister gets it—it 's a question of whether we can persuade the home office of that particular case . lynne neagle am: okay . thank you . the next questions are from john griffiths . john griffiths am: i have some questions on the sustainability of higher and further education . firstly , with regard to higher education , we heard that , even without brexit , higher education is in managed deficit , whilst the funding announcements from diamond and reid are awaited . so , is that a concern to welsh government , and could welsh government take away that uncertainty by outlining a clear funding commitment to the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: welsh government is fully committed , john , to implementing the diamond review proposals . it 's a commitment that was an element of the agreement between myself and the first minister that brought me into the administration , and we have been very clear with hefcw about our expectations and what the implementation of diamond will mean for grant going to hefcw . and we 've shared those figures with them . with regard to reid , we continue within government to discuss how we can implement the recommendations of reid , but one of the whole principles behind diamond was to move us to a more sustainable funding settlement for the he sector in the round , that is fair to students , encourages those with the ability to partake in higher education to do so , especially from those from a poorer background , as well as being able to provide our institutions with the resources that they need . john griffiths am: so , you do n't accept , then , that there has n't been a clear funding commitment from welsh government to those reviews—the diamond and reid reviews ? kirsty williams am: with regard to diamond , i would absolutely refute that . we have been very clear and we have shown hefcw our analysis of the figures going forward in relation to what is sometimes called within the sector the 'diamond dividend ' , although the diamond dividend is never as big as people imagine the diamond dividend to be . but we've been absolutely clear with hefcw and the sector on what that will mean . now , with regard to reid , those are ongoing discussions that form part of the normal budgetary process within the government , but i think we have been as clear as we can be with regard to diamond . john griffiths am: okay . the second question , really , is about he and fe and it 's about european funding , which , of course , has been and is on a multi-year basis , which gives , i think , a lot of security and comfort to the sectors , knowing what the budgets will be over a period of time . so , moving from that to a yearly budgeting situation would be worrying . so , would you commit to introducing multi-year funding settlements for he , and indeed for fe , moving forward beyond brexit ? eluned morgan am: shall i take this and give you a little bit of a break ? she 's not very well . i think the multi-annual nature of the european funding programmes has been very , very useful . people can plan , you can get staffing in place , you can have really strategic aims and i think that 's really useful for the institutions involved . of course , what we do n't have is multi-annual budgeting from the uk government . so , whilst i think we would , in an ideal world , like to see a better view of what 's coming our way , it 's extremely difficult for us to be able to offer that without having that multi-annual funding commitment from the uk government . so , i think that will be a major , major loss for the institutions concerned . of course , it 's not just about esf and apprenticeships—it 's also about erdf funding . so , you must n't forget that , actually , there 's been a lot of erdf funding that 's gone into these institutions . swansea university , you 'll be aware , has been practically rebuilt with erdf . also , fe colleges—we 've got coleg y cymoedd , the college in blaenau gwent . these have been built , largely , with european funding . it 's because of the multi-annual nature of the fact that we 've been able to prepare for them that they have been able to progress . so , that will be a huge loss , but i think it 's really important that we do n't forget the erdf aspect in addition to the esf impact that there will be on these institutions . john griffiths am: okay . as far as further education is concerned , in your paper you state that it 's a priority to support the fe sector to maintain all the learning opportunities that currently take place under european union funding . so , would you be able to give the committee an idea of the level of resource you would estimate that the sector requires to achieve that priority , and— ? i 'll stop there for the moment . eluned morgan am: i think it is important . what we 've said is that we want to maintain that range of learning opportunities that is provided by eu funding . i think we 've got to be clear that we are not working to this scenario . i think we 've got to— . the uk government have made us some promises and they 've made some commitments , and we need to hold them to that , and so let 's keep the pressure on . the moment we start saying , 'no , it 's all going to be okay , we 'll sort ourselves out'—i think that would be a huge mistake . we have been promised that we will not lose a penny as a result of brexit , and we need to make sure that we keep them to that commitment . i think it was quite interesting to hear what philip hammond said yesterday when he was in wales , saying that the money that we will receive will depend on the future shape of the economy , which implies that he has no idea what 's going to happen there , and that that shared prosperity fund will be designed around the deal . well , that 's really not what we 're interested in . we were made some promises , and we need them to commit to those promises . i think we have some real concerns about the shared prosperity fund not really following through on the commitments that were made during the brexit referendum . but , in terms of the replacements , we 'd be looking at about £15 million a year , and that would be a huge impact for us , but we 're not looking at that—i do n't think we should be—because they made some promises . john griffiths am: so , could you say that , if they keep their promises , then at least that level of funding would be maintained ? eluned morgan am: i think that would be a minimum , but that 's just one aspect of it . that 's not including the whole workplace learning money on top of that . john griffiths am: okay . lynne neagle am: thank you . suzy , you had a supplementary . suzy davies am: yes , just very quickly on the multi-annual point , obviously i recognise that we 're talking about six or seven-year cycles with europe , and i completely take the point that you do n't really know from year to year what your budget 's going to be , but welsh government does make multi-annual commitments . i think you did it yesterday , actually—the capital commitment is over more than one year . how are you able to do that and yet not quite feel confident that you can do that with—well , both your sectors , really ? eluned morgan am: i think it 's probably easier to do with capital than it is with revenue , so that 's what would make the difference . but it's— . these institutions are interested in revenue , because that 's what supports the staff . the one thing we all know is that employment opportunities today—the transitional nature of employment and the fact that people are not getting the kind of contracts that we 'd like them to get—that makes their lives very precarious and they 're less likely , then , to be committed to those institutions . i think it 's a really , really concerning thing , because what makes these institutions work well is their staff , so that makes life very , very difficult without that multi-annual commitment . suzy davies am: they also have to raise some of their own money as well—we must n't forget that . eluned morgan am: no , i think that 's right , and i think that there 's more that these institutions can do in terms of their own funding and being more responsive to employers and the need for skills in their areas . suzy davies am: okay , thank you . thank you , chair . lynne neagle am: so , given the precarious state of planning for the finances , are you considering letting universities charge eu students international fees ? kirsty williams am: we do n't regulate the ability for universities to set fees for international students . they would be in a position to— [ inaudible . ] they are in a position to set international fees at a rate that , i guess , they feel is appropriate for the provision that they give to those students . lynne neagle am: okay , right . we 'll move on , then , to questions from llyr . llyr gruffydd am: thank you . i just wanted to pick up on the funding of apprenticeships and the long-term funding , because the esf—the commitments take us to 2023 , which takes us beyond any transition period . so , i just want to hear from you that there are assurances that the apprenticeship programme can be delivered as a whole , come what may . eluned morgan am: well , we 're fine until 2020 , because we 've had that guarantee from the government . the issue for us is the n+2 that we would have if we do have some kind of transition deal or an agreement with the eu . so , there is a risk and there is concern , beyond 2020 , that that would create problems if they do n't agree to fund that , which is the expectation that we have . llyr gruffydd am: but it is a prospect that this would n't be achieved as you foresee . eluned morgan am: well , we do hope , because we 've had the pledges and commitments from the government , that they will respect what we expected and what was expected by these institutions that have had the commitment of the funding . llyr gruffydd am: so , to what extent does that undermine the current work ? because institutions want to enter into agreements with providers and so on . businesses want to know , if they 're starting on some sort of journey , that they are going to get to the end of it some years down the line . that must be undermining a lot of the work that 's going on now . eluned morgan am: well , as i said , because the guarantee is there until 2020 , i think that , for now , people are willing to go into those agreements , and i hope that we 'll have a better outlook by november of the direction we 're moving in . but i do n't think it 's had an impact . you have to remember that the number of apprenticeships in wales is rising , while they 've collapsed entirely in england . so , it is important that we do continue , and it 's important that we do n't create an atmosphere here that 's going to undermine the confidence of our employers in committing to training in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: are you confident that the government will achieve its targets in this context ? eluned morgan am: yes . we 're on target to reach 100,000 apprenticeships . i think we 're slightly ahead of that target , i 'm pleased to say . so , of course , our hope is to do that . but let 's be clear : if there is a 'no deal ' scenario , that will have an impact on the economy , and who knows what will happen then to some of these companies that are reliant on the eu . llyr gruffydd am: talking about the impact on the wider economy , on the point you made earlier that it 's not just the direct effect on these institutions , but also on the businesses that they engage with , that is a concern in this context , that means , of course , that there is a lot of pressure in this context on the work that other departments in the government are doing , because perhaps they are the ones dealing with some of this . so , could you tell us a little bit about how you 're working with ministers and cabinet secretaries and other departments within the government to safeguard these interests ? eluned morgan am: so , as part of the employability programme , i have started going round every member of the cabinet to ask what the impact will be on them—for example , in health , and , certainly , the economy , but here are many other areas . what 's important for us is that we do collaborate and we do get this analysis , but we hope to do that on the ground through the regional skills partnerships . that 's our way of ensuring that we can have an understanding , on the ground , of what 's needed by employers . and so ensuring that people feed into that and that we respond to those requirements—that 's where we 're focusing our work . so , we 're asking , for example , health boards to ensure that they feed into the regional skills partnerships . llyr gruffydd am: is there a danger that we 're a little bit behind in this process ? because brexit could be upon us in no time at all , and , of course , this work is still ongoing . eluned morgan am: well , i have been pushing and ensuring that in the direct areas facing the greatest risk , and agriculture 's one of those , of course— . we have been pushing to see what we can do further , so , for example , i 'm in the process of developing a policy on rural skills at present because i do think it 's important that we do focus on those sectors that are likely to suffer the worst impact if the worst does happen . so , those preparations are in place as far as they can be , but , of course , it 's very difficult without knowing to what extent it 's going to impact on us . llyr gruffydd am: and each sector 's running on its own timescale , i would presume . but , as you 've mentioned rural skills , when do you foresee that that work will appear , and when will plans or schemes or whatever you 're intending to put in place see the light of day ? eluned morgan am: well , we hope during this term that that will be published or announced . so , certainly , it is something that we have been discussing with people in rural areas directly , with the colleges , to see what the provision is there and to what extent we need to expand that , and to what extent we will need to change and move really quickly if there is no deal . that 's something that i think we have to learn and we need to convince the fe sector about in terms of moving more quickly and to be more responsive to the demand that there is in the workplace . llyr gruffydd am: yes , because there is the dilemma you touched on earlier about providing the skills that are required for the economy and providing the courses that are easy to fill . that is a live discussion across fe and he , but you 're confident that that discussion is taking place in a constructive and positive way and moving in the right direction . eluned morgan am: well , it 's helped that we 've put £10 million on the table , because they do understand now that we are serious about our aim of ensuring that they do respond to what employers are asking for . so that has helped a lot in terms of focus and , of course , we 're in the middle of a review now as well in terms of how we fund fe , and that will certainly be a part of that . llyr gruffydd am: okay , thanks . lynne neagle am: thank you . can i just go back— ? kirsty williams am: sorry , chair , could i just clarify something ? the last question you asked me about— lynne neagle am: i was just going to go back to that , yes . kirsty williams am: —fees— . sorry . of course , that is in the context of a 'no deal ' scenario . there could be a scenario where there are reciprocal arrangements , so , if a deal was reached with the european union that established the principle of reciprocal arrangements , then , obviously , the ability of the he institutions to charge international fees would be curtailed . i just want to make that clear . lynne neagle am: if there 's not that agreement— kirsty williams am: if there 's no deal— lynne neagle am: —then it will be open to universities to charge market-driven , international rates . kirsty williams am: yes , that 's right . sorry , i just wanted to clarify . i should have made it very clear that the answer i gave was in the context of no deal , which is what we seem to be talking about mostly this morning , but if there was a deal to have reciprocal arrangements , then that ability , obviously , would be curtailed . lynne neagle am: okay , thank you . are there any other questions from members ? no . okay , well , can i thank the cabinet secretary , the minister and the officials for attending and for answering all our questions ? we very much appreciate your time . as usual , you 'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy after the meeting . thank you very much . okay . item 5 , then , is papers to note . members will see that there are 18 papers to note , so i 'd like to suggest that we note them as a block , please , and just to flag that i would like to return to paper to note 18 when we go into private . is that okay with everyone ? everyone happy to note those ? thank you . item 6 , then , can i propose , in accordance with standing order 17.42 , that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the whole of the meeting next week ? are members content ? okay , thank you .

when discussing the official commitments , eluned morgan had great confidence in the government that they would provide firm support for the wales universities . but as for llyr gruffydd , he did not think that the institutions would be able to rely on the official funding much , and more importantly , if they would like to enter into the agreements at present , they would interrupt their current work , which would also put themselves in great risk .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

user interface and industrial designer gave a presentation about the prototype of the remote control based on the team 's discussion in the previous meeting . then the team evaluated the prototype against various criteria they formulated . after that , the team discussed adjusting the design of the remote in order to fit into the budget . finally , the team evaluated the whole process of the project .

summarize the team 's evaluation of the prototype . </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

the evaluated the prototype against some criteria formulated in response to the market research and financial consideration . the team agreed that the features of fancy appearance and technical innovation were mutually exclusive . besides , they all believed that their product incorporated elements of fashion to attract buyers and it fit in with their company 's other products . then , the team discussed the budget of the product .

what did industrial designer think of the look of the product when discussing the evaluation of the prototype . </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

industrial designer thought it was fancy because the product had a single curve and the material of the rubber was fashionable at that time .

what did user interface think about the attractiveness of the product when discussing the evaluation of the prototype ? </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

user interface thought that the product incorporated elements of fashion to attract buyers because some of the buttons were shaped like cherry and it was spongy .

summarize the team 's evaluation of the process of the project . </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

the team thought the creativity of the team was okay , as they felt that they got chances to express themselves well enough , but there were still some problems in their process of discussion . then , industrial designer gave an example on how to improve the creativeness of the team . the team believed that their team work went well . as for the methods of discussion , project manager thought that he was still not familiar with the operation of computers .

what did project manager think of the creativeness of the team when discussing the process of the project ? </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

project manager thought that the team members showed their creativeness during the course of the meeting . but the flow of information on a given subject was sometimes disjointed .

what did user interface think of the evaluation of the team 's leadership when discussing the process of the project ? </s> project manager: so is why not save that . marketing: no , you 'll ha have to open it up from elsewhere . project manager: do you want to replace existing file , no . i actually tried to transfer it to my documents , but marketing: yeah , you have to you have to close that window . 'cause that 's the save one is n't it , so and then find it . project manager: spreadsheet . marketing: project manager: yeah , but i 've ta uh marketing: project manager: right , i 'll just re-do it . that 's the easiest way . right . user interface: well we 've made our prototype anyway . we can have a good look at that . marketing: you pass it round to have a look . user interface: mm-hmm . y no , it 's a slightly curved around the sides . marketing: mm very nice . user interface: um , it 's almost curved like up to the main display as well . and the little line at the bottom indicates the bit the panel that you pull down . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and the extra function buttons are below that panel on the little line . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and we 've got the stick on the button with the company logo on . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: we also have a apple slash cherry design at the top . user interface: marketing: so it is , yeah . industrial designer: marketing: cherry would be alright actually . user interface: yeah , marketing: yeah . user interface: it 's a bit more fun , is n't it ? and it 's kinda not really at a kind of you think apple , you think computers , like apple mac . industrial designer: yeah , yeah , we might get a marketing: mm-hmm . copyright , yeah . what 's this this one ? user interface: yeah , and cherries are fun , summery . marketing: what 's that one there ? user interface: ah , that 's the mute . industrial designer: for the m_ . marketing: oh , okay . right . user interface: it it 'd probably have to be labelled mute . marketing: industrial designer: they 're thinking user interface: but um , we did n't have anything small enough to write . marketing: uh-huh . industrial designer: for the first time , well it was hard to get the h um the actual labelling on the individual buttons . marketing: okay . mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . uh , we just chose simple shapes for all them . marketing: user interface: um , the important ones are the volume ones . so we made them a bit bigger . the mute could possibly be a bit smaller . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: hum , you separate off in colour the volume related buttons from the channel related buttons , so you 've got the volume in orange on design there , user interface: marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and the the channel is in blue . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: r right . um , user interface: yeah , and we chose a v_ plus and v_ minus . project manager: all these things have cost implications . and so when i done my thing on cost a i had assumed that the only uh button that would be a different colour would be the uh the red apple button . so however , i 've now . but um , yeah so uh but there would be a cost implication on that , marketing: i 'll see if i can find them . project manager: and uh as i suppose that so whether wanted to put in all these colours , would be uh open to debate , i suppose . industrial designer: yeah , sis user interface: well the colours would n't like that 's they would n't be too important , marketing: have user interface: but we did n't have any white play-doh . so that 's where the colour buttons came from . project manager: an important consideration . marketing: project manager: right , okay so um and the second one underneath would be the idea for the industrial designer: yes , we 'll have the slide-away . project manager: right , okay . so we 've got um detail design meeting . industrial designer: bottom . project manager: right . so so , we 've got prototype presentation , which we 've just done , evaluation criteria , um and finance , so i guess w we have to evaluate if that meets the various uh aspects that we 're looking for uh from um our previous meeting . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: so other than the fact that it does n't have the second layer , but um obviously obviously it would . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: project manager: but other than that , we got the red apple . we got the buttons and the only thing that has really changed is the is the colouration of the buttons , industrial designer: yes , yes . project manager: and the bit after the evaluation criteria is uh is the finance . and the and the cost implication . industrial designer: okay . marketing: right . project manager: the only snag about this is that uh the cost is probably kind of important . so um , and then the production evaluation , as to how easy that would be to uh to manufacture . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and whether it would uh marketing: so if you had to do a presentation or will you just work it on the prototype ? industrial designer: this this is a user interface: uh , that 's it . industrial designer: yes , this is our presentation of the prototype . marketing: that 's the pr project manager: right , so uh as far as the the finance of it would be concern would be to make sure that the cost aye the production cost 'cause you may remember that was one of the first uh considerations was to be in d under um uh twelve fifty or two and a half uh twelve and a half euros . marketing: okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so , there 's no redesign . so that should uh right , so , seems to me that the thing that i have to do is is quickly find that uh industrial designer: could we get this on the board just so we can see or do you mean do you have the figures there ? marketing: we should plug it in . project manager: right . marketing: do you wan na plu do you wan na plug it in into the the back of that one . project manager: okay . industrial designer: 'kay , alice . so , sh marketing: we could do it as we d go along , the production costs , looking at the prototype . project manager: right . . industrial designer: 'kay this should be then . project manager: okay , so , by the fact that we 've got uh the simple chip and the uh kinetic energy source , we 've got a single curved case . we 've got a rubber uh case materials supplements . so , we had decided that we 're having rubber buttons and industrial designer: mm-hmm . have a push button interface . project manager: okay . w the button supplements . industrial designer: um project manager: well , originally , i thought there would just be uh one in there because it was the one red apple . but industrial designer: um project manager: so the so the real w the real question then would come in . do you make all the buttons marketing: well do we 'll do it on the prototype , project manager: o marketing: so do two , see how much it is . project manager: well , so we 've got one special button form , which was the apple . everything else is gon na be a standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: we 've got special material , rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera and that , industrial designer: and then we 'd have project manager: so , i was originally , i was thinking rubber was n't special , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: but according to this , maybe it is . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so and the r i mean effectively we 've got sixteen buttons that we 're gon na have on there . marketing: yeah . i think you just do one , do n't you , for the project manager: w i do n't know is is is the sort of answer , is that meant to be all sixteen buttons , and therefore i mean , what 's the op the option was maybe not to have rubber buttons , but just to have the one that was soft and spongy , and therefore marketing: i think i think it 's just it 's just a one . else project manager: whereas it would be the special colour would be for the so you would only have the one special button that was rubber , whereas the rest would be hard plastic . marketing: i thi i think i think the button supplement i is just a supplement for all the buttons made in a different material , rather than per button . project manager: mm . marketing: i do n't know though . project manager: i would every design change is uh sound ] i dunno , marketing: hmm . project manager: um okay , um , if we just had all the buttons as standard , except for the one red apple , then that would take care of that , i guess . we 'd have one special colour and one special button form . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and when i plugged that in last time remember it has to be under twelve and a half . as far as i know , that um that took care of the uh of the various supplements . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and if what happened ? marketing: you 've just gone off the window into another one . it 's on the bottom row . user interface: maybe if you just minimise that one in the top right-hand corner of the little box . project manager: user interface: yeah . project manager: now , right . user interface: project manager: okay , so , but the point would be that if we uh if we just did special sorry , you were saying that it would be that one , that you would put in one there . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so that 's nine point one there so we 've got some project manager: so it well , is it s is no , it 's nine point seven i 've got . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: okay . industrial designer: just give us a bit of project manager: so , that would that would work out fine if uh uh as assuming your correction are are assuming that that one change covers all the buttons , then that would be fine . marketing: mm-hmm . mm-hmm . project manager: and there 's nothing else as far as i can see that we we had uh planned to put on . user interface: s marketing: industrial designer: i switching around those th um on the electronics we got the sample sensor . at the moment we 've just got the simple chip , which costs one . project manager: uh-huh . industrial designer: um , i guess the sample sens sample speaker would be the voice recognition thing , which puts up to four ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: we should be slightly over our budget but if we gather something else down to slightly lower standard , and maybe go with the one the special form buttons , then we could have the speech marketing: yeah . project manager: well , hold on . um , if we okay , that gives us twelve point seven industrial designer: so uh maybe if we got rid of like the maybe one of the special colours , kept them all the same colour , then we could have the voice recognition project manager: but remember that the idea was to keep it the colour of the industrial designer: without project manager: oh , i see , so just take out the special colour for the apple and industrial designer: yeah , yeah . user interface: um , . d would n't you have to keep the simple chip there as well ? you know how you turn that one to a zero , would n't the chip and the sample speaker be separate things , marketing: yeah , we have to have it industrial designer: oh possibly , yeah , yeah maybe . user interface: so you need both of them ? marketing: yeah . industrial designer: maybe um we 'd be giving up on the kinetic . um project manager: and go for battery instead . marketing: yeah . project manager: that would give you one less . industrial designer: we should yeah , that would save us one , though we 'd still be slightly ov project manager: but you reckon that i i mean the thing is that you wanted to a appeal to people and not have to replace batteries . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . well , since it 's the through the whole technology type thing , um , you were saying in the market research that people like kind of interesting gadgets in them . um , whether they would figure the the s uh sample senor and the sample speaker , voice recognition be sort of a worthwhile thing to have . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and then still have the batteries , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or whatever they would prefer not uh you know what i mean ? the the problem was the battery 's running out and losing the um losing the remote . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so you got ta decide which of those is more important to them . project manager: but which do you think or which do we think is the more important of the options ? in a sense , at the moment , we 've got a total which we need to reduce down by one point two . user interface: i think the voice recognition . project manager: at least . remember that was a minimum requirement . the other option if we 're planning on just going for something cheap and cheerful , would be to um make it originally , we 're gon na make it a simple product . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: shall we shall we evaluate the prototype as we 've got it now first , and then sort of make decisions about what needs to be changed after ? project manager: mm-hmm . makes sense . industrial designer: okay marketing: okay . right um , i have a little thing . so , we 've all got a note of it 's thirteen point seven , is n't it , with everything we want on . project manager: . sorry , do you want that back up ? marketing: yeah , i just had a presentation to do . project manager: right . user interface: but i do think uh the v uh voice recognition thing would be more impressive than the fact that it 's got no battery . project manager: okay , but remember the main the only reason we were planning on having the voice recognition was so that they could find the remote if it got lost . marketing: mm-hmm . mm . right okay um , this is about the evaluation criteria that we use for the the prototype we 've got here . user interface: marketing: and so the method is that the design team makes a prototype , and we evaluate the prototype against some criteria that we 've formulated . and those ones are gon na be in response to sort of market research , and also finance , i guess . and do that on a scale from say true being one and false being seven , so if it 's neither true nor false , then that 's four . so , i got a set of criteria just based on the marketing that we need to add in a financial one as well , at the end . um so , we have to say whether it 's true or false that the product looks and feels fancy . um the whether the product demonstrates technical innovation . whether it 's easy to use . whether it 's incorporating sort of the fashion element to attract the buyer . and whether it 's a sort of recognisable real reaction product . and i have to go up onto the whiteboard and do this apparently , industrial designer: okay . marketing: so i 'll go over here . right . so the first one is um , does the product look and feel fancy . so if we do a sort of a one so industrial designer: okay , well we have a single curve , which was maybe like the feel of the product 's quite good . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so uh marketing: okay . industrial designer: um , then we have the rubber kinda spongy feel , which was in at the time . marketing: yeah . yeah . yeah . industrial designer: um , sorry that 'd be considered fancy . user interface: yeah , i 'd maybe give it a a two . marketing: of but i think what is one false , or is t one true ? user interface: one 's true . marketing: i forgot . one 's true , and okay . seven 's fal user interface: and a four is neutral . marketing: four is neutral , okay . so industrial designer: so maybe maybe a two . user interface: yeah , 'cause we have n't got the double curve , so we ca n't like say it 's completely true . project manager: go for one . yep . marketing: right . user interface: but it 's pretty close . we 've got almost everything we can . marketing: okay . right . project manager: okay . marketing: i gon na put underneath so i 've got some more space . so , false is seven , true is one , and so uh say about a two for fancy , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: you think ? project manager: yeah , why not not , marketing: okay . project manager: m m maybe nearer three . marketing: okay , well d you do an average at the end , i do n't know . um project manager: two three . well , it 's just that uh saying something remember that when you look down , we 've got solar power , we 've got uh various other things you could have , and we 're not going for these options . marketing: uh-huh . this this is just this is just for like the look . does it sort of look fancy rather than functional . so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i suppose that might be in the technical innovation bit . marketing: yeah , so that so sh should we go for a a two on that ? project manager: okay . marketing: 'kay . and i mean , how much does the product demonstrate technical innovation do you reckon ? industrial designer: um , deciding between the kinetic power or um the speech recognition , and if we had either of those for our budget , they both show a reasonable amount of speech recognition . marketing: d yeah . okay . so , what about the pr the prototype as it is , industrial designer: um marketing: we 've got we 've got the speech recognition on it , have n't we . industrial designer: but not the kinetic . marketing: but not the kinetic . industrial designer: like the power . project manager: no . 'cause you ca n't afford that w we took that out too . industrial designer: no , we c ca yeah , we ca n't afford both . marketing: alright , so project manager: did n't you ? or marketing: so it does n't it 's pretty the prototype as it is is n't sort of um fulfilling the industrial designer: no may is maybe about neutral user interface: maybe a three . industrial designer: plus it it it 's got something , but it has n't got marketing: okay . yeah . project manager: well , wait a minute . in thirteen point seven we do have kinetic . user interface: i would give it more than a four . project manager: the problem is we have to reduce down from there to get it down to twelve point five . industrial designer: right . project manager: and one way of doing that would be to take out the kinetic . industrial designer: okay . project manager: so , it 's very much dependant on what you do with your options . and if you 're definitely going for the sample sensor and sample speaker , then because that industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: the other functions we 've got in are are more at the the special material , the rubber , wood , titanium , et cetera , if you go for that , th that 's at the high end 'cause that 's point six , whereas down at uh just special colours uh is point two . now you 're trying to lose one point two , so it seems to me that if you 're going for the sample sensors speaker , you 're basically then having to go for the cheaper options on everything else . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and and the simple way to do it would be to have a battery , to have your uh sample sensor speaker , industrial designer: um project manager: and then you 're looking to uh take out uh point two , marketing: s i 'm just gon na check my email . project manager: which would be come from the button supplements category . marketing: i 'm just gon na check exactly what it said in the email for um the product . user interface: how much of a difference would it make if we made the case in plastic ? because we did say that we do n't wan na follow the fashion too much . if the buttons are rubber that might be spongy enough . project manager: um , interface type um , user interface: and then it stand the test of time better . project manager: well plastic rather than rubber . marketing: okay . but i project manager: that that that would make the significant difference . you could either you could have it if you have a in plastic rather than rubber , then that would uh enable you to get you could keep kinetic then , you could keep your sample sensor , and you 'd be looking to take out point two . so you could uh fiddle that down your special form at the bottom , or your special colour at the bottom . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: and that would enable you to to do it . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay . industrial designer: so it says if we make a slightly more fancy , then we lose points innovation , and if we make it more innovative innovative , then we lose points on it being fancy , so project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: ye marketing: , i just read the email again and it sort of says it 's evaluate the design sort of as it is , i think , so i think we need to think about finance after we 've sort of evaluated that design . i do n't know whether we 're doing it in the wrong order or something or . project manager: well , okay , but user interface: well , i suppose it 's rubber as it is , is n't it . project manager: it 's rubber as it is , yes . marketing: so , i mean does this need to go up a bit or something , 'cause we 've got both the both the um the speech project manager: we got we 've we 've got thirteen point seven user interface: yeah . project manager: and we 've got it in at the moment and if and basically , we 're going to reduce down from that . marketing: yeah . project manager: but the current one , you 'd say would be fancy , would be too industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: yeah . um , for for innovation , so we 've got the speech the speech thing , and project manager: mm-hmm . i would 've said about a two as well . marketing: do you reckon a two ? user interface: yeah , two or three . i 'd be happy with a two . marketing: okay . two . project manager: oh . marketing: and the next one is i 'll have to get it back up now . user interface: project manager: the next on well , i can just sing about . easy to use . i would 've said yes . i would go for a one on that at this point in time . user interface: yeah . yeah , marketing: okay . user interface: i would say so as well . project manager: um , incorporates elements of fashion to attract buyer . well , yeah it certainly has some . industrial designer: um project manager: . user interface: yeah , it 's got the cherry and the sponginess . industrial designer: it does , yeah . marketing: um project manager: yep . marketing: say about a three maybe ? project manager: i do n't know . industrial designer: yeah , m um user interface: maybe two ? industrial designer: yeah , it was just doing it quite well . project manager: yep . industrial designer: um , i think we 're gon na have to lose some of these , but the moment , as it stands , it 's um project manager: yeah , i woulda said two would seem reasonable . marketing: it 's a two . project manager: the product is a recognisable real r uh reaction product ? marketing: yeah , this is industrial designer: uh the sensor using all of its all of its products , all of its buttons , marketing: this project manager: industrial designer: and it 's got a fairly big label on the bottom saying where it comes from . user interface: yeah , that 's a bit rough at the minute . marketing: yeah . so this is about sort of the corporate image of like new sort of sleek technology and all that sort of thing , as well as having the logo on and all that . project manager: oh . industrial designer: okay . marketing: so sort of is it sort of a recognisable product . industrial designer: project manager: marketing: does it fit in with our other other products , which uh are sort of coffee makers and spacecraft . project manager: s user interface: marketing: user interface: uh , well it 's got the same um speech feature as the coffee machine . marketing: what do y industrial designer: also it 's kind of spongy rubberiness is maybe bit more kinda comfortable than kinda sleek and new age . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , it depends which way you look at it . marketing: uh-huh . project manager: okay . so we 're going for a two , marketing: so industrial designer: maybe a kind of three ? uh d project manager: three ? user interface: yeah , two or three . marketing: two or three ? user interface: well , the logo would be more um recognisable on the actual thing . it 's just that the pen would n't really write on that paper . project manager: sure . industrial designer: user interface: but um , i think the logo would definitely be recognisable . marketing: yeah . user interface: and it does have attributes that other products do . two ? aye . go for it . project manager: right , okay . marketing: two or three . user interface: project manager: two . marketing: how project manager: right , come on . that 's that decided . marketing: two . okay . project manager: right . so marketing: right . project manager: so we 're now on to changing it to get it to fit in with the budget requirements , and then marketing: yeah . user interface: what does what do all them numbers mean then ? do we add them up and rate or anything ? marketing: yeah we s yeah , i think we sort of add them up so sort of at an average is gon na be i 'm just gon na do this in my head . project manager: about a two . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: two . marketing: one point eight is n't it or something . i think , anyway . so yeah , pretty close to a two . industrial designer: yeah , so it 's marketing: so so it 's i mean it 's pretty good at the moment , but it 's gon na get worse , is n't it . project manager: yep . marketing: but we 've got ta try and make sure it does n't get too bad . project manager: two b two b two , yeah . industrial designer: so should we get so are definite was it thirteen point seven was the definite price rule if has . marketing: project manager: yes . industrial designer: okay , so we need to marketing: yeah . project manager: well , you can lose one point two and still meet the requirements . marketing: do you wan na plug it into yours so we can get up the the finances project manager: okay , well i put it back on . industrial designer: so i guess this is this the last stage once we sort out the finances part of it ? project manager: marketing: i 'm not sure . project manager: user interface: we 'll probably have to re-rate it . project manager: yes , i would 've thought so . industrial designer: yeah , yeah we 'll make the adjustments marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then see how are rates are going . project manager: okay , so what was it , control uh f_ eight , was n't it ? user interface: ah it 's on . marketing: it 's come on already . project manager: oh . oh . how kind . user interface: project manager: right , okay . so , you can see there that the if you want to keep kinetic , right , you 've got a choice there of going down to battery , which would save you one . you 've got the sample sensor and and sample speaker , which is your big item . industrial designer: oh actually we just have a plastic case , then we lose two points , project manager: that 's right . industrial designer: which gets us um in right within the budget range . project manager: which gets you marketing: mm . project manager: yes . user interface: yeah , i think that 'd be fine . because that was just a trend , and we do have rubber buttons anyway . industrial designer: so that 's eleven point seven , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: and then we could make sure we definitely had all the button supplements . project manager: alright . marketing: different different colours , yeah . yeah , i was i was thinking that because maybe maybe the sort of rubber case is a bit less in sort of the corporate identity than the sort of you know sleeker plastic case . industrial designer: possibly , yeah . um user interface: yeah . project manager: okay , so industrial designer: and that would allow us to have all the technical innovations . so we 'd lose a little bit on the maybe kind of project manager: so we 're going for plastic , yes ? marketing: lose a little bit on the fashion , yeah , but project manager: yep . industrial designer: oh yeah , and that would now be marketing: and then industrial designer: yeah , that 's that 's within the budget . um do we actually have do we just have one special uh special forms down here ? project manager: well , uh w uh there was debate as to how you would count them . you got special colour . industrial designer: um project manager: well originally i was assuming we had the red apple , and therefore , that was the special colour . industrial designer: and we we 've we 've got we 've got enough for another user interface: yeah , i think we should just imagine white buttons . industrial designer: we 've got nought point eight left , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: so we 've got enough for another project manager: well , we 've got special form . now that would be one button , and the question was was that all buttons or is that just one button . 'cause our plan really was to have one button only with a special industrial designer: yeah , um project manager: so so no matter how you look at that , that would be the same . industrial designer: but the but but but the project manager: the other thing would then be special material , rubber , wood , titanium . industrial designer: i think maybe the special colour , we 've got three now just because the volume buttons are different , marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i guess we 'd have the ones which are blue at the moment would would just be the standard colour . project manager: alright . so , special colour , you want three in there . industrial designer: yeah , which i think we should yeah , they 'll still be fine for the for the price . project manager: okay . marketing: well i thin i think you you you just need two for the special colour 'cause it 's just two supplements , you know . one original colour and then sort of two supplements , i think maybe . project manager: that makes sense . industrial designer: okay , uh that 's probably it . user interface: yeah . marketing: okay . so we only ne we only need two for that . project manager: okay . marketing: 'cause i mean these these are moulded . the one colour 's gon na be moulded out of a piece of plas uh of rubber , is n't it . project manager: okay . yeah , i would agree with that , i think . and we 've got special form is the one apple . marketing: right . project manager: the rest are all standard , although you could argue that should maybe be you were making these buttons down the bottom , i was presuming , bigger than the other ones , or were you ? was that the idea ? industrial designer: ne uh user interface: yeah , the volume ones should stand out a bit . industrial designer: maybe that 'll be a second supplement . then there 's a spe a second special form . marketing: yeah , that project manager: uh-huh . i would have thought that 's probably about r well . industrial designer: um well you got you got twelve . user interface: marketing: okay , so tha industrial designer: so i think that should still be okay . yeah , that 's twelve point three , project manager: right . industrial designer: so we 're still within budget on that . um project manager: yep , that makes sense . industrial designer: so decide we 've lost a little bit on the fashion and lost a bit on the fancy kinda side of it , project manager: yep . industrial designer: but generally speaking , we 've kept the other attributes to the project manager: i woulda said so . yeah . so you 'd maybe put fash fan uh fashion at three rather than two . industrial designer: that 's without yeah . marketing: so shall we do a well , um industrial designer: and specially it definitely could fits the the real product what was the what 's the company name ? project manager: real reaction produ user interface: real reactions ? industrial designer: r yeah . yeah , yeah . project manager: i 'm not quite sure , what does that mean ? marketing: yeah . user interface: industrial designer: i mean it still seems definitely fit that p so that 's like if that 's the new age kind of um inno innovative c type company , then um having the kinetic feature and the voice recognition is p quite high up on marketing: yeah , so uh project manager: yep i would s marketing: so it 's w if we 've if we 've put in for another special form on a button , then maybe they could be a different shape . like we got a cherry one . maybe other ones could be something else shaped . i do n't know . that would be poss seeing as seeing as it 's cheaper to make them a different seeing as we 've got , you know , we 've made it a a special form , so project manager: you mean of industrial designer: um marketing: and that would sort of maybe keep us close on the sort of the fashion type one . and it would sort of , you know , keep it quite fancy as well , project manager: well you could argue you might do it once a year , you would change , industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: i do n't know . project manager: because at the moment you 're making a red apple . so next year you could make next year 's model the same , but have it as a a yeah whate whatever , a lemon . industrial designer: yeah so it 's a marketing: well you could yeah . industrial designer: whatever fruit was in fashion next year . marketing: project manager: yeah , l a lemon lemon or something . marketing: yeah , i mean the volume buttons could be lemons or something , maybe . project manager: and that industrial designer: project manager: amount marketing: okay . so , we 've what have we what have we rid of . we got rid of the plastic . project manager: yeah , we 've the main thing we 've changed really is the casing is n't it ? marketing: is it industrial designer: that yeah , that was uh marketing: the rubber . industrial designer: that was just about all . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: i think we 've saved quite a bit because we 've just got the push-button interface , which is by far the cheapest . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um so maybe in a sense not having that , maybe we 've lost some maybe lost something on the innovation side ? marketing: but uh industrial designer: i dunno . and that is like the most standard type of button . marketing: so i mean , we 've got we got rid of the rubber case , but we 've now s we now sort of got an extra form , and an extra colour for the buttons . so maybe in terms of sort of fanciness and fashionability , we 're pretty much the same , maybe . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so , i mean we could maybe put two again on them . industrial designer: and everything else has stayed pretty much the same , so project manager: well , ease has certainly stayed . industrial designer: yeah , plus if anything that is special forms makes it slightly easier to to use . marketing: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and what about the sort of innovation ? industrial designer: um , well we 've still got the kinetic energy . um marketing: do you think okay . project manager: and the speech feature . industrial designer: yeah , the speech feature . marketing: and then , the corporate identity . industrial designer: i think we 've cut just about the same . we 've maybe lost has n't it it 's hard to tell how the rubber the rubber casing would really affect project manager: how it would play out , yeah . oh . marketing: yeah . whether whether that 's considered to be sort of part of the corporate identity , i do n't know . industrial designer: um marketing: i mean , it 's maybe not . i mean industrial designer: but i think more the the features of the actual control will be more important than maybe than the the actual aesthetics , but marketing: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: but either way , i think we 've made it fairly close to what marketing: yeah . okay , well i mean user interface: yeah , i do n't see how we could make it any more . um , apart from maybe doing the whole thing in the kinda light shade of blue , like the casing . marketing: we cou mm-hmm . user interface: but then what colour would you make the r_s ? industrial designer: just the the company logo . so maybe there 's like a set design which we get printed off . marketing: yeah . project manager: well , but you 've got the company logo on there , which would effectively be a stick-on badge . so you 're in a sense , you 're comparing the product without the company logo . industrial designer: okay . project manager: and then y but you 've got the space for it to stick it on . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah , yeah . marketing: hey , what what what 's the company colour ? did you get told what the company colour is or industrial designer: i 'm still not quite sure we 've established that . user interface: no , project manager: do n't think so . user interface: i just project manager: but but i but in the sense that , as you saw with um the windows logo badge , it does n't really matter . user interface: we got the logo off the web browser . marketing: oh right . user interface: project manager: there 's virtually n the way that you frame , you know , the windows badge on there , it really does n't matter what colour it is , marketing: hmm . project manager: so long as our company 's logo is framed w in the same way as that with a like a black outline . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: fact , they 've got black and white or black and silver . so basically , even if you had a silver the same colour of silver on your display , because you 've got effectively a double edging on the uh on the logo , it means that it splits off what your logo is from the from the product . marketing: mm . project manager: and that 's actually quite a sneaky way of doing it . marketing: okay . uh-huh . 'cause you 've got sort of we 've got point two to play with if you really wanted to . project manager: you could put in another marketing: another colour . project manager: well , in this one , you 've actually got three colours of buttons . marketing: or would that be t project manager: well , we decided that the blue ones were the um the standard colour . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: so you were talking about uh um we 're assuming that all the buttons on the second panel , the hidden away panel , would all be standard . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: which m may or may not be the case . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um marketing: shall we save the point two for profitability then ? project manager: well , yeah . bu but but uh was the was there not a button that you were thinking of on the um on the other opt you know , on the second page , as it were , that uh you were thinking of maybe having as a different colour ? user interface: um , i do n't think they would really need to be . i think if they were just all small round blue buttons , it 'd be fine . industrial designer: yeah , maybe we 've m user interface: needs to be an enter button , but could just be the same as well . industrial designer: maybe for the the one they 're gon na see all the time , we make it look good , and um , fit the kind of idea of what they want . marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and then for the more functional buttons , we do n't worry too much about that and just have that as like a plus it 's hidden away anyway , you 're not gon na see it at the start . marketing: yeah . i mean it 's the sort of thing that , i mean , you wan na pick up the controller and just hit a button quickly to change the channel or volume . project manager: yeah , well marketing: so , if it 's dead obvious , then that 's fine . but if you 're opening the panel and you 're looking and you 're tuning , then you 're paying a bit more attention . so it may be sort of different colour buttons is n't so important . project manager: alright . okay . marketing: 'cause you yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so project manager: so we just add that to profitability in effect . marketing: yeah , i mean so we 've dropped the cost , but user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: right , so we 're meant to finish up in five minutes . marketing: same sort of function ? the criteria ? it 's alright . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: just made a load of money . user interface: should n't we maybe lose a point on fashion , go to a three ? 'cause we 've lost the overall spongy feel . 'cause it does n't seem right that it just has n't changed at all . project manager: marketing: well , but i think we said that w because you got rid of the rubber , we put an extra an extra sort of fruit um shape on one of the buttons . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: alright . marketing: le lemon sh user interface: did we decide what that was , which button it was ? on the volume ones ? marketing: i think well , we could have lemon shaped ones with the volume ones or something . user interface: right . project manager: industrial designer: uh , . that 's good . marketing: or something like that . yeah . project manager: industrial designer: definitely lemon shaped . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: did did you have to have a rubber case , though , for rubber buttons ? or was it the other way around ? industrial designer: you had to have rubber buttons if you had the rubber case . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so i think we can we 're okay . marketing: right , okay . project manager: so we 're okay this way around . marketing: yeah . so that project manager: until the design team comes in and says , get off . marketing: so we 've saved project manager: but you are the design team . industrial designer: then we say it 's fine , so it 's all good . marketing: saved two euros on that . project manager: so what bit are we on to ? user interface: um , can i just check if that 's a cherry or an apple ? did we decide against the apple because of apple mac ? and did we make it a cherry officially ? project manager: yeah . i th i th marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: oh . right , okay . industrial designer: just in case we need that point two for lawsuits and such like . user interface: project manager: marketing: project manager: oh drats , i 've botched that , have n't i . user interface: so were we aiming for a certain target on that scale ? marketing: well , we 're aiming for um one for all of them . user interface: right . marketing: m but it really has to fit into the budget , so i guess we just have to adjust things to get it i in the which is fair enough . industrial designer: and we seem to have least something in each criteria . we have n't completely left anything out , so marketing: yeah . yeah , i think industrial designer: as an overall product which has to be quite cheap , we 've just about achieved everything . marketing: most yeah . yep . user interface: so do we have anything else to discuss ? marketing: i do n't know . what 's on the agenda ? project manager: right , okay um what 's happened here ? right , okay um mm . right , okay um , right . so we got so we 've done the the finance bit and the excel project and the we 've done the redesign . industrial designer: we 've got the closing . project manager: so we 're now on to project process . now satisfaction with , for example , room for creativity , leadership , teamwork , means , et cetera , whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . so , we 're actually now uh , in a sense , on to the evaluation of the course rather than the evaluation of the project is m my understanding of it . industrial designer: marketing: uh-huh . project manager: so what did you and remembering that nobody 's just over the curtain . marketing: project manager: so , um marketing: finish your meeting now . industrial designer: we should just go through this quickly and then user interface: huh . project manager: so marketing: yeah . project manager: i suppose the easiest way of doing it is to put some notes down , which i will do . marketing: okay . project manager: so , uh i think i have to finish that page . right , okay , so marketing: oh . project manager: project evaluation . so , um creativity . did you feel you got a chance to express yourselves well enough ? marketing: industrial designer: um , yeah . yeah . project manager: well um user interface: yeah . marketing: i thought some of the divisions though between sort of the individual meetings were a bit arbitrary . project manager: individual meetings . how do you mean ? marketing: yeah . well , we were finding out various things in in be in-between the meetings , project manager: in you on your own . marketing: and they did n't the one meeting did n't always follow on for the other one , you know , sort of we had things thrown in at the second meeting where , you know , you 'd looked at the remote controls and seen the curviness , but in the first one you 'd also looked at some remote controls and looked at the buttons , project manager: um marketing: and i do n't understand why it would be in separate meetings that you 'd do that . you know , you 'd sort of you 'd probably present it at one or something like that . project manager: mm , the only thing you find is in a manufacturing process , you would normally , you go to a meeting , you decide , right , you do this , you do that , you do that . marketing: yeah . project manager: then you go away . you find out information . you then come back . you then discuss it . you then go and change things around , marketing: uh-huh . project manager: and then go back . so industrial designer: yeah , i suppose and then be going out and finding more information each time marketing: yeah . project manager: whereas , this time , you 're really getting it from a database source , industrial designer: and then diff things will be relevant . marketing: yeah . project manager: so it 's not uh well uh marketing: yeah . project manager: anyway , so , what do you want to put down ? user interface: marketing: project manager: i 've put , seemed okay . creativity , seemed okay . um um flow of information on on any given subject given subject um sometimes disjointed . marketing: yeah . user interface: i think it maybe could have been a slightly more creative project . i mean a remote control is n't the most um kind of fancy thing that you could imagine designing . marketing: yeah , the thing itself . project manager: um user interface: i ca n't think of a better example at the minute . marketing: yeah . project manager: have could have used a different example pel to increase create creativity . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: is this go it kinda kis fits the purpose that it was something everyone knows about and then something we can at least look at and think how we can improve on . project manager: you have to do it within a set time frame is the other thing , so marketing: mm-hmm . yeah . but think like it was a bit restrictive just to say that you have to design a television remote control , in a way . i mean it depends what sort of business you 're in , i guess . i mean this one seems . from the website it looks it 's quite innovative , but we 're coming up with some bucket shop product are n't we user interface: marketing: that 's , you know , fifteen quid . industrial designer: one of those things . like uh , companies can have like a range of products and project manager: i th i uh d industrial designer: i do n't know how it works but i guess that something got sent out and have like a brief to kind of project manager: but the other thing is that uh they 're i 'm guessing that they 're trying to use this um software to to demonstrate how you could uh do a project . i mean , m my wife at the moment , for instance , is uh acting as a computer marketing: yeah . project manager: um for um you normally , you got a problem , so you go to your tutor and find out information to see how to get it fixed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: so what she 's doing is she 's having to spend a day at the computer terminal at one end so that any student that comes along can uh ask whatever question . and then you or the idea is that the whichever uh person 's at the other end can point them in the right direction , show them where to either give them directly give them help , or secondly , point them in the right direction , either at the library , or uh or or come back , or go and see joe bloggs , or whatever . so uh , and that was a project i suspect similar to this , because they they were actually trying to debug the uh computer software to enable um to enable it to work . and of course , you had the machine crashing marketing: hmm . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and various things going wrong . so industrial designer: well , sh we look at the last slide , marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: see if it 's got anything else . project manager: alright , industrial designer: i think there 's one one more to go . project manager: so we 've got uh marketing: yeah . i mean if you look at their products on their website here , real reaction , i mean it 's all pretty high-tech and cutting edge . project manager: new ideas found , marketing: and project manager: did we find any , no . industrial designer: it was quite good with this um the white board , having that and the digital pens . project manager: alright . industrial designer: like , that 's something that made it a little easier . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: leadership , teamwork . marketing: we did find a new idea , i mean sort of a kinetic remote control . i 've never seen one of them before . batteries , i think . so project manager: does industrial designer: voice recognition , especially not could project manager: you 've got voice recognition computers , marketing: mm yeah . project manager: that 's not remote controls . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: well it 's a different application of it . project manager: mm-hmm . okay , industrial designer: yeah , so it 's just like the same products , but just put together in a different way . project manager: so how do you reckon teamwork went ? marketing: mm . industrial designer: um marketing: that went okay , yeah . industrial designer: yeah , i guess we all had separate ideas and then discussed them . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm , yeah . project manager: to uh go uh reasonably well . okay . marketing: i do n't think sort of the budget um allowed us to do anything project manager: bit bit arbitrary . marketing: well , i mean i do n't think it i just do n't think it fitted in with the rest of their products . i mean , they 've got all these sort of , you know , high definition d_v_d_ and portable seven inch d um lightweight computer screens , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: and uh i 'm thinking , do you know , one cheap remote control does n't really fit in . project manager: so , we 're m we 're meant to comment on leadership and the means , e_ g_ whiteboard , digital pens , et cetera . user interface: marketing: surely they they should produ project manager: and and new i new ideas found was the the other thing . user interface: well leadership 's a bit of a funny one , is n't it . marketing: yeah . user interface: but we ca n't really all fairly comment on leadership because you are the project manager . project manager: user interface: you were the leader . so our experience of leadership was n't really as much as yours . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: now , i 'd much rather be in marketing user interface: marketing: project manager: but i certainly did n't get this uh computer to work as well as i would have liked . marketing: project manager: however , um alright uh means , so whiteboard um so really , it 's uh equipment . oh . marketing: yeah . it worked . user interface: yeah , very nice . marketing: comput computers could be a bit difficult at times but user interface: but i mean , i d i do n't i 'm not sure i see the value in these . i mean , they record what you 're writing , and then what do you do with it ? where do you get the recording ? do you plug the computer or something ? marketing: i think there 's a little there 's a little um chi industrial designer: so it 's not just for us , it 's for the experiment as a whole , so marketing: there 's a little there 's a little chip , i think you must plug it into something industrial designer: should we quickly look at the last slide ? marketing: and it produces a industrial designer: sh user interface: right . i think you watch a video of it kind of . marketing: i do n't know . whether it just produces a big image of sort of everything you 've written or something , and page after page . project manager: right . new ideas found , so one or two . marketing: yeah . kinetic powered remote control . um , what was the other one ? user interface: voice um recognition thing . marketing: vo yeah . project manager: um and uh voice marketing: project manager: uh , was it voice activated um marketing: voice recognition , yeah . s project manager: recognition . marketing: almost . user interface: pretty much . marketing: to fill in these fill in these questionnaires project manager: right , so , uh are the costs within budget , marketing: oh no . project manager: yes . is the project evaluated , yes . uh , do n't forget to complete final questionnaire and meeting summary . then celebration . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: . is that everything ? marketing: hmm ? i think that we 've got two questionnaires and a report on the last meeting . project manager: yeah . uh , so we do n't re so really i tried to save this the last time at twelve point three , and it did n't seem to have saved anywhere . mind you , the the figure last was was different , but it should be poss

user interface thought that the team members ca n't all fairly comment on leadership because project manager is the leader , and the other member 's experience of leadership was n't as much as the project manager .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the meeting mainly discussed the design of functions and the appearances . on function wise , the group had a little argument whether to make the product multi-functional or single functional . in the end they went with single-functional because it was more focused and affordable . they also removed some of the functions being discussed such as lcd screen , teletext and voice recognition , because they wanted to stick with a simplistic design . on design wise , the group finalized on the colour yellow as their product appearance and they chose illuminated buttons as one of their highlights . they also included some humanitarian factors into the design .

how did the group discussed about the possible environmental-friendly material ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the industrial designer suggested that when taking environmental impact into consideration , the product could switch to a more environmental-friendly material . this type of material was made up of specific alloys of metals which have a shape memory , and it also allowed recycling . hence , the product manager lifted out the point that the company could recycle the old remote controls from customers and take down the usable parts to make new remote controls . even though the team liked the idea , the product manager also raised his concern towards the financial budget . in the end they agreed to discuss further about how they could achieve the idea by not exceeding the budget .

how did the group hold their views towards multi-functional and single-functional product ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the user interface designer suggested two options of making the remote control functional . one way was to make it multi-functional , so as to be used for several entertainment devices . another way was to make it single-functional , which could be used specifically for the television . the entire group preferred the product to be single-functional . it is because making an original design was more obtainable , and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . they had to make it compatible with different brands of devices to sell internationally .

what was the most prioritized functional requirement of their remote control ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the marketing specialist did some research and the marking specialist stressed on the topic of appearance . to combine with the company ’ s motto , the marketing specialist believed in providing the international market with fashionable remote controls . and the statistics also showed that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . hence customers would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control .

what did they discussed about buttons as a function ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

it was discovered by the marketing specialist that people liked to switch channels , thus they had to make a more durable button . the marketing specialist counted the times of usage of every button on the remote control , and wanted to make a user-friendly banner to include all the buttons in . when including the buttons , they took in consideration the relevance and disadvantaged people as well .

what other functions that customers would be willing to pay more for ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the marketing specialist discovered that since a button would be too troublesome , a large percentage of the public would also like to pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . however , the project manager raised certain limitations of voice recognition function , and it also clashed with the intention of designing a simple product .

what other points did the product manager and the marketing specialist raise about functions of the product ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the marketing specialist suggested a lcd screen could be installed . the industrial designer thought it would be good to link with the teletext function . also , the marketing specialist raised points about the target age group . in their assumption , a teenager would not be willing to pay for an expensive remote control , whereas the elder age group would be more willing . the group reached a consensus on catering the product to the age group of early twenties .

summarize the group 's decision on colour and logo of the product . </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the project manager mentioned that they would love to incorporate the company ` s logo and colour into the product design , but it did not necessarily need to be the same colour . since there was not a plan about which specific colour and logo to use , the industrial designer initiated the colour yellow and it was adopted .

what did they finalize on the product ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

firstly , the team decided that the target functions of the remote control would just be for the television . secondly , they removed functions that were previously discussed , such as teletext , lcd screen and voice recognition . particularly for the teletext function , they were removing it because they were reaching out to an international crowd and some countries did have such things as teletext . they kept the alarm idea because it was not expensive to actualize .

what did the group discussed about the portability of the remote control ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the group agreed on making it small , but the findability was a problem . the user interface designer suggested that since the remote control was only linked to one tv set , it could stick to somewhere . and in order to reduce the size , the user interface designer further suggested that the remote control could charge within the socket , so it could obtain electricity which was provided from the tv ` s power source .

what did the group discussed about the fluorescent button on the remote control ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the group liked the fluorescent idea . the user interface designer suggested that since fluorescent lights lost their brightness after a certain time , the group could make this function tactile . they decided to make this function into little arrows that could be felt . they further debated on whether to use a battery to provide power or to use a naturally fluorescent material .

how did the fluorescent buttons related to the humanitarian design of the product ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the group wanted the lighting up to be a faint glow , so that it would not cause a sudden explosion of light in a dim environment . at the same time , the glowing buttons would be made in the shape of numbers so that the vision-impaired people would be taken care of . meanwhile , they wished the glow was in neon style so that they could implement the company 's colour in it and make it trendy .

what was the idea of personalization and how was it not so feasible ? </s> user interface: industrial designer: okay . yeah . that 's okay . that 's okay . marketing: industrial designer: okay . project manager: am i starting now ? anytime ? oh sorry . 'kay , um . alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . and um i hope you had a productive last thirty minutes . user interface: project manager: um , and um , i 'll be taking minutes on this one , and um being hooked up to the powerpoint for this meeting is n't very necessary for uh myself , because it 'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . um , so , the first presentation we 'll be looking at is poppy 's presentation . and , um so , sorry ? so , um , take it away poppy . industrial designer: okay . um , do i need to project manager: it 's , it 's plugged in . so , um industrial designer: plugged in . user interface: f_ eight , w . function f_ eight . industrial designer: f_ okay . function f_ eight . sorry about this guys . project manager: no problem . user interface: industrial designer: 'kay . is on . right . okay . i will take this time just to apologise . user interface: industrial designer: i , i only , uh , received my emails later on . 'cause i was too busy carried away doing my own thing , marketing: industrial designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing . user interface: industrial designer: but there we go . project manager: i 'm sure it 's fine . industrial designer: um , so i was looking at how we 're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remote control needs to do . and it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . they do n't need to actually manually touch the television set . so , it gives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . um , from uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there 're certain points that will make our product unique . um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um genevieve 's idea . so we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . and we could use illuminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we 're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . a automatically , um lights up at first touch . or we could use fluorescent materials which would just um take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . um , also we could use um an alarm . so if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on the television set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . maybe behind a cushion or somewhere . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: um , so that would work . um , oop . go back there . um , another thing i think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider the environmental impact of our design . um , from previous researches i 've carried out on other projects , um we 've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory . user interface: marketing: industrial designer: so they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . so , for example , a screw that 's holding something together could expand and it would force all the components apart . so um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would spring apart . so , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and i think that would be very important for products now . especially 'cause there 's much uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious . project manager: right , um , one question . this , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so that , um , someone could have this product for as long as they felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ? industrial designer: um and then yeah . yeah they would , um you would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . and that 's the part that would um allow all the other parts to be separated at the end . i mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it 's the product 's responsibility to get rid of what they 've made . um , and then the company could then just use , make use of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components , project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gon na wear out with time , or not usable , they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . something like the case , if it 's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else . project manager: mm-hmm . would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? or would we contribute to another group ? industrial designer: you could we could probably empl em employ a , a side company or something to do that for us . but it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . for a certain percentage at least . project manager: alright . industrial designer: not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce , project manager: okay . this sounds like a really great idea . industrial designer: but project manager: one thing we have to consider is our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: um , so we 'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . you would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive . industrial designer: well i the fact of the shape-memory alloys is that they , they do n't need to be manually de um deconstructed . like , you do n't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . because of this , their properties are smart material . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: all you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves . project manager: alright . we 'll still have to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: so i suppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but project manager: alright . i like the environmental approach . um , we 'll have to see if that can meet our financial goals as well . industrial designer: yeah . okay . um also there is um components . this 'll be how it uh will actually work . but i have n't put this plan together yet . project manager: i 'm sorry , could you industrial designer: there we go project manager: those were um industrial designer: . sorry , should i go back . this would actually show the circuit diagram . although i have n't come up with the final circuit yet . project manager: okay . industrial designer: so i just put all those components in . project manager: so those are what , um , we 'll c construct the remote . those are all the industrial designer: yeah . i it just shows what sort of energy source . it could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . um , an ' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to be received by the chip on the television set itself . project manager: alright . great . industrial designer: okay ? so , now is it f_ eight again to escape ? or escape ? there we go . okay . project manager: alright . thank you very much . and , um , the next presenter will be tara . industrial designer: thank you . user interface: industrial designer: there you go tara . user interface: thanks . can you see ? marketing: oh , user interface: do you think is it uh , function eight yeah ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: function f_ eight . marketing: function f_ eight . project manager: function f_ eight . sorry . industrial designer: the one at the top . user interface: oh right . okay . marketing: that looks right . project manager: yeah . user interface: okay . i 'm the user um user interface designer . uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . um , in this case it 's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television , television set . by taking inspiration from other similar designs , we 'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . there 're two functional design options . a multifunctional remote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . and a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . marketing: i 'm sorry , what was that last one . multifunctional and user interface: sorry . um , a single function just for the television itself . marketing: ch oh , i see . user interface: yeah . um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as the multitude of buttons can be confusing . a single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices . marketing: 'kay . user interface: um , i think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it 's easier to use . it 'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . um , it will make an original design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . and it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . and less functions would have to be included . so it would be cheaper to make . and probably more sellable just because it 's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . does anyone have any questions ? marketing: so as far as we know , um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ? user interface: well , it 's just that , when we 're creating it , we 're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices . marketing: right . user interface: and it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent , marketing: d_v_d_s and v_c_r_ ? user interface: yeah , project manager: right . marketing: okay . user interface: other entertainment devices . project manager: does everyone agree with this ? does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way to go ? industrial designer: um , i was just wondering about the , what , what genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . and that would probably , um , i d , well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . i suppose having that would complicate it a lot more . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and limit the design . do you think ? marketing: yeah , i think i agree with the single design thing for now , because we 're trying to do so much , that if we 're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it 's also multi also multifunctional , um , we 're gon na go over budget for one thing . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . that 's true . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . and with this we 'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: we 'll have more money to go into the design side of it . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: okay . yeah . project manager: alright . sounds great . marketing: mm , 'kay . project manager: alright , well , um , marketing: project manager: are you ready for your presentation genevieve ? marketing: yes i am . project manager: fabulous . except you 're not hooked up to the marketing: oh , user interface: marketing: i 'm not hooked up , but other than that , completely ready . project manager: great . marketing: okay . okay . oh . i just lost my microphone . project manager: no problem , marketing: just a moment . project manager: we can marketing: okay . so i 'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . um , and i 'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . um , if you all remember from the email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? the functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . um , so what i 'll be talking about now is the equivalent for a remote control . um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . um , i 've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . and i 'll show you my findings . oh , and firstly i wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . so we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . um , hence our motto , we put the fashion in electronics . so i think that should be our priority here . um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . not just in electronic fashion . so that it 's something that fits in the household . project manager: i 'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ? marketing: um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: any trends that are going on in , in the public , even media , industrial designer: mm . marketing: you know who 's famous , what tv shows are being watched , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , to influence our remote control . okay , so the findings . um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . which is a , quite a significant number . industrial designer: marketing: um , the other twenty five percent did n't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . project manager: i 'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . you mean that they would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control ? marketing: yeah , they 're willing , they 're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality . project manager: okay . marketing: as opposed to your basic , you know , oval black , all same size button remote control . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: um , so it is something that people care about . it 's not , it 's not ignored in the household . um , seventy five percent of remote control users said that they zap a lot . zapping meaning they go through channels a lot . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: they 're you know thumb-masters . um , and fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons . that a very small amount . thought that was interesting . project manager: alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons . industrial designer: mm . the single function . project manager: and another thing with um lots of surfing , we 'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: because i find with um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they 're printed on the button . marketing: yes . industrial designer: yeah that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: and actually to go with that , i 'm gon na give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they 're used . and uh how important the uh users find them . so the power button , obviously , in an hour is only used once . hopefully the person 's not turning on and off the tv . um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . so people wan na be able to turn on the tv with the remote control . um , as opposed to standing up and turning on the television set . channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour . industrial designer: marketing: that 's a huge amount . this is the most important button . um , so obviously when commercials come on they 're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that 's not gon na run down . relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten out of ten . uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . and it 's used on average four times an hour . not as much as channel selection , but still significant . um , audio settings is used on average zero point eight times an hour . relevance is two . screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . um , and relevance of one point five . we 're getting to specific statistics here . teletext , um , now i 'm not too clear on what that is . i do n't know if you can help me . flipping pages . user interface: it 's um marketing: is that industrial designer: it 's like the news . or like information . user interface: it has tv has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: the project manager: it 's um industrial designer: and what 's on . marketing: so like a running banner , underneath project manager: no it 's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up . user interface: no , li yeah . project manager: i have n't used it before user interface: yeah . project manager: but marketing: oh . industrial designer: it 's like user interface: and you have page numbers like for the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it 'll come up . industrial designer: it 's like very basic internet . sort of , marketing: okay . user interface: very basic internet , yeah . industrial designer: um user interface: but you have marketing: okay . like tells you the weather , and user interface: yeah . but you have no interaction back with it , you know . marketing: okay . user interface: like the internet you can send emails and you 've no interaction . industrial designer: yeah , it 's just information that um , like television timetables , what 's on , what 's on now , what 's on next , on every channel , and marketing: right . user interface: yeah . marketing: alright . well i guess i 'm not with it , because i was n't but it 's , it 's being used fourteen times an hour . um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . so it looks like something that we 're gon na want to do some research on and include on our remote control . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , channel settings . zero point zero one times an hour . relevance of three . channel settings . user interface: uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ? marketing: p sorry . changing the channels ? user interface: tuning them in at the very start . you know if you get a new tv set , you tune in all the channels , industrial designer: to get the right reception and picture , i suppose . user interface: do you th do you think ? marketing: oh , okay . user interface: yeah . yeah . marketing: yeah . okay . project manager: mm . marketing: um , so it 's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . okay . um , biggest frustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . remote controls are often lost somewhere . so that was already discussed by poppy . how we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . um , takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control . industrial designer: marketing: so it should be very user-friendly , you know . people know what to do very quickly . um , remote controls are bad for r_s_i_ . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . user interface: repeti uh . marketing: ah . industrial designer: i think . marketing: is that what it is ? people with arthritis and such ? project manager: that 's rather sad . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: marketing: um , maybe our industrial designer: oh , i 'm guessing that 's what it is . i 'm not user interface: yeah , yeah . i think it is . marketing: designers can look into that . um , buttons that do n't require , you know , very firm pushing , if they respond . industrial designer: mm . yeah . marketing: but we 'll have to also avoid , you know , buttons responding to the slightest touch as well . that 's a problem . industrial designer: yeah . it is . marketing: okay . did you guys uh get that one down ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: yep . marketing: um okay , here 's some ideas for you . a large percentage of the public would pay for voice recognition on the remote controls . so i 'll show you some numbers here . um , so the youngest age group , fifteen to twenty five . ninety one point two percent said that they would pay extra money to have voice recogni voice recognition included on their remote control . um , and you can see that number decreases a bit with ol s interestingly enough , twenty five to thirty five is the lowest amount . um , that would , are willing to pay extra . so i guess we 're gon na have to figure out what age group we 're , we 're targeting , and if and if voice recognition is something we wan na look into . and if we have the budget for it . um , if we are targeting young adults , it looks like something that would pay off . seeing as ninety percent , over ninety percent would pay for it . project manager: i agree with um if we 're targeting young adults then it would be something we should look into . um , financially and and functionally . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: um , and especially if we are um trying to be trendy , go with fashions , things like that . industrial designer: mm . project manager: um , ages like from thirty five to sixty five which show lower numbers probably wo n't be as concerned . marketing: so that , that 's a whole other field of research . i do n't know if it 'd be , if we 'd still have a remote , or if you 're talking to your television and saying change channel . project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: um and depending on how many members you have in households . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so it m it may be too complicated for us , but it 's something to keep in mind anyway . project manager: yeah . and something that might further complicate it is that the tv makes noise itself . marketing: right . project manager: wonder if it would have user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and if there was conversation in the room at the same time , project manager: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: although in theory it does n't tend to be when you 're watching television , project manager: industrial designer: but could be very difficult to get the specific uh design . project manager: yeah . if we 're looking for a simplistic design , if marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: we need to decide if that is our um intention is , is a simplistic design . industrial designer: yeah . mm . project manager: um , because if , if it is then i think voice , um voice-activated marketing: it looks like project manager: yeah , and that would sort of negate the whole remote control thing , marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: because if people can activate the television with their voice then they wo n't be using a , they wo n't be talking into a remote , i 'm sure . marketing: it 'd be like the ultimate remote . um okay . and th the last thing here was a , an lcd screen . so , i mean voice recognition might be a little too extreme for us . not practical . um an lcd screen though might be something that , you know , you can shift through pages kind of li the way this powerpoint is working . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: so that you do n't have so many buttons to deal with . project manager: um , i do n't know what an lcd screen is . marketing: oh sorry , just , just a screen , like a computer screen . s or like um user interface: mobile phone . industrial designer: mm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah . or like an alarm clock . you 'd have an lcd versus just a , a normal clock . industrial designer: what , what would appear on the screen ? project manager: i have no idea still . i 'm sorry . marketing: oh just like an electronic screen . as opposed to just buttons . there would be like a little , like on project manager: oh , on the remote . okay . marketing: yeah . like on the top of a cellphone , the the little lcd screen . project manager: yeah . marketing: um , now that 's , i , i dunno exactly what exactly we 'd put on there . i guess the channel that you 're on , the v the volume setting . user interface: yeah . could it it it would be good if it had the actual programme that was on , and what was next . but that would probably be industrial designer: like linked in with the teletext , user interface: yeah . that would be good , yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or sort of like an teletext at your fingers , without having to access that through the television . user interface: yeah . might be quite expensive to do that though . industrial designer: mm , yeah . could be . user interface: marketing: well i guess that 's something we can all take back to our respective research . project manager: right . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: um , and finally , whoops , my personal preferences and thoughts . um , i think our priority really should be unique design . um , we want something that people want in their home . every remote control looks the same , so uh in my opinion it should be , um , user-friendly and unique . so the other stuff might be a little too , a little too gadgety for some people . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: um , i th myself , voice recognition kind of scares me off . user interface: marketing: so if we 're , if we 're aiming to make this an international university , universally accepted product industrial designer: mm . project manager: marketing: um , and for all , the other thing is like age market . i mean if we wanted to concentrate on fifteen to twenty five years olds , we could go for the fancy stuff . but if we wan na make fifty million , and and have everyone want this remote control , we should maybe stick to the basics . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: and we should keep in mind that fifteen to twenty five year olds might not have twenty five euros to spend on a remote control . like their priorities might not be a fancy remote control , when they 're just starting out marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: and , yeah . marketing: right . and we have to keep in mind the , the reliability of our research . i mean , you know , a sixteen year old boy would say , yeah i 'd pay extra for voice recognition , until they realise that 's three months allowance . user interface: yeah . project manager: user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so i i think , i think the older generations we should be catering to a bit more . user interface: early twenties , that 's the kind of age group . project manager: yeah . and if one of the largest , uh , or most complained about thing is that it takes so long to get to know how to use a remote control , user interface: twenties . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: i 'm sure that something like an lcd screen or remote control would be just furthering that problem . industrial designer: yeah . complicated jus complicating things even fo mm . marketing: yep . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: alright . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . that 's it for the market research . project manager: okay . before we go into uh more discussion on we want this design to look like , i 've received some information from the management that will affect some of our decisions . um , for one thing , because having controls with d_v_d_ , v_c_r_ , that sort of thing , would really complicate the design of the remote control . um , we 've decided not to include them and make it a specific , just a specific television um function . which is good as , as we 've sort of decided that we would like to go with that anyway . um , for many reasons . so um we have that decision sort of made for us . another thing that might um affect other decisions is that um the management feels that teletext is outdated , because more people are using the internet now . and so uh we wo n't concern ourselves with um navigating the teletext option . industrial designer: can i just interrupt ? project manager: yep . industrial designer: would you like to plug in your marketing: yeah . maybe we can do the project manager: okay , sure . industrial designer: have you got a powerpoint or not ? project manager: yeah i do . i 'm looking at looking at it right now . industrial designer: okay . thanks . marketing: there you go . project manager: thank you . marketing: oh , come back screen . project manager: marketing: hmm . industrial designer: were they , was the management suggesting use of the internet rather than teletext , or just avoiding both altogether ? project manager: um , well , i mean we do n't have the resources or or possibility of using the internet with the remote control , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: but um they were just pretty much saying that the teletext would not be used . industrial designer: okay . yeah . okay . project manager: alright , and another thing . this is for the design , the design of the product is that um we wan na create , um more of a sense that people know that this is from our company . so , um , all the remote controls must have our um we 'll incorporate our logo and colour in in some way . industrial designer: right . yeah . project manager: so , um , perhaps um our logo on the bottom , or wherever you feel like it would look good . industrial designer: yeah . okay . project manager: um , it does n't have to be the colour of our um of our company industrial designer: just project manager: but , another thing is that , um industrial designer: project manager: we need to , we probably would have to have that colour and , and logo decided upon . um , i 'm assuming that we already have one , but for the purposes of this meeting i , i was n't offered a , like a type of logo or colour , so if that could be um somewhere on the design so that we can be recognisable . industrial designer: okay . work on that . marketing: it 's probably r_ r_r_ in yellow . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: the little r_ r_ yellow thing ? okay . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah , i think . project manager: real reaction ? okay . um , yes , those are the changes . um , so , now we need to discuss , um and come to a decision on our remote control functions , of , of how this is going to be . i 'm just going to look at my notes for a second . um , we have to decide on a target group and the functions of the remote control . so , um , we already know that it 'll just be for the television . industrial designer: okay . project manager: it 'll it wo n't have teletext . but um , you know , we could discuss um those other options that you brought up , genevieve . industrial designer: marketing: okay , so i are we going to write off the lcd option ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: is that how most people feel about that ? user interface: yeah . marketing: yeah ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay . marketing: okay . so no lcd , no teletext , and no voice recognition . user interface: i think it would be annoying though if i do n't use teletext that much , but if it was on your tv , you 'd want to be able to use it , if project manager: yeah , but another thing is that if we 're reaching an international crowd , um , i know for one that in north america there is no such thing as teletext , so it 'd be really superfluous . user interface: you 'd yeah . marketing: yeah . user interface: so is it just industrial designer: yeah . marketing: never heard of it . user interface: okay . alright . project manager: yeah . i do n't know about other countries besides the u_k_ . user interface: right . project manager: do you know if anywhere else has it ? industrial designer: i do n't know . user interface: i do n't know . industrial designer: more research required , i think . user interface: i do n't know . project manager: alright . industrial designer: but if was it a management decision that we 're having project manager: it was a management decision , industrial designer: okay . project manager: so it 's , it 's pretty much out of our hands at this point . industrial designer: so user interface: yeah . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay then . project manager: 'kay . so , i guess we 're looking at something rather simple . marketing: um , well i guess , just from my findings it looks like we wan na minimise buttons . industrial designer: 'kay . marketing: um . industrial designer: minimal marketing: and the what was the word they used ? f findability is important . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: yeah . i think we should definitely go ahead with the alarm system idea that you had . industrial designer: yeah okay . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i 'm sure that could be inex inexpensive because we could use the same kind of infrared user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . the same signalling . project manager: the same signal through that and it could just like make a little beeping noise . industrial designer: i mean project manager: it 's not that expensive to do . industrial designer: or vibrate just the same as a mobile phone . like you just a , a buzz or something . project manager: yeah . yeah . okay . i like that idea . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . user interface: would you be able to , um , put the little device anywhere ? 'cause uh is n't our remote control for all tvs , so industrial designer: if user interface: you 'd ha industrial designer: do you mean the the link between the user interface: yeah , with the button that you pressed . project manager: yeah . the button industrial designer: well , if the button was actually on project manager: oh . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah . project manager: minor detail there . user interface: c 'cause then it would only be a applicable to one tv set , so it would need to be something that you could stick somewhere , or something . industrial designer: maybe yeah , yeah . project manager: yeah , it would have t industrial designer: maybe something adhesive that you could like stick onto the back of any set that would be um yeah not very obtrusive . user interface: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . industrial designer: obviously something small that 's yeah , that 's a good point . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . then it would n't , it probably would n't be able to use it would be able to use the same reception on the remote c control i guess , but the actual device would have to have its own infrared signaller . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay . industrial designer: yeah , okay . user interface: would it need a battery then ? project manager: maybe , um industrial designer: pr probably . project manager: probably , i mean . industrial designer: unless it could be project manager: that 's your department you 'll have to sort that out . user interface: marketing: mm . industrial designer: okay . um , unless some way , it could have some universal connection to like the socket , the same socket that the tv 's supplied from . i mean the power for the tv . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to industrial designer: so , mm , more research into that one . project manager: yeah , you 'll have to investi do some research on that , user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm . project manager: alright ? great . um , alright , and i 'm sure that , um um , the glow-in-the-dark , fluorescent , whatever , system , um is a go ahead . is everyone interested in that ? industrial designer: y marketing: on the buttons ? user interface: i i like the light up suggestion . i think that would be better . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: yeah . user interface: 'cause you know the way fluorescent lights lose their brightness after certain time , so industrial designer: yeah . yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it does n't user interface: i would go for marketing: it could it could be a tactile thing as well . um right , if w if we 're minimising buttons , we might be able to make them actually larger . and there 's something on it . s you know like up arrow down arrow for , for volume . industrial designer: like a raised marketing: um , and i do n't know what we could do for , for channels . s user interface: well just the numbers could be embossed , could n't it ? like raised . marketing: the numbers themselves . user interface: yeah . could be raised . marketing: but then the like up button and down button for the channel , channel changing . user interface: just little arrows , that you could feel , maybe ? industrial designer: yeah marketing: yeah . project manager: hmm . marketing: i just thought that it , it might be sucking more battery power , if there , if it is a light up . i 'm not sure . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: that 's true . project manager: but i mean industrial designer: and also y , uh heather you mentioned before , um like how it should be accessible to everybody . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: um , so like big b um buttons , for people you are visually impaired . the glow-in-the-dark or light up wo n't make any difference anyway . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: so like you say tactile might be better , because it 'd be more available to everybody . user interface: that , i think that 's good , yeah . project manager: yeah . could we somehow we could , may , possibly , sorry , incorporate them both so that the buttons could maybe be in the shape of the numbers themselves and be made out of some glow-in-the-dark material . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: 'cause i d i do n't think that glow-in-the-dark material , um , like the actual soft plastic , um , costs that much more than other colours . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: no , it 's not these days . user interface: no , i would n't say so . marketing: industrial designer: i mean , it 's quite easily accessible . project manager: yeah . marketing: i guess the other option , referring to the battery thing is , you know how cellphones will t light up for fifteen seconds or something , when you 're s and then it goes , industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: that 's good yeah that a good idea . marketing: so if , if you 're like changing the volume during a movie . i know , i 'm thinking of mostly when you 're watching a movie you turn all the lights off right . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: and you do n't want to turn on the lights , to turn it down , because there 's suddenly an explosion , and it 's gon na wake up the baby . user interface: yeah . marketing: um , so if you touch the button , it kind of reactivates it . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: it lights up for industrial designer: yeah . user interface: that , yeah , that 's a good idea . marketing: on self timer . industrial designer: so self-timed lighting . project manager: alright we have five minutes left marketing: yeah . industrial designer: um , i project manager: um , for the meeting , but i think we should discuss this light subject a little bit more before we close . um , what was i missed the last moment , reading that . what were you talking about with the lighting up buttons ? marketing: oh , just if it was kinda the same way that a cell you know how a cellphone will light up for about ten , fifteen seconds when you touch a button , after having not touched it for a while . project manager: yeah . yeah . marketing: um , if instead of a constant light up on the , on the remote control , if it lights up for ten seconds when it 's touched again . project manager: mm . so it could be any button that would be pressed . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah , and you , you touch it and it just kind of lights up a bit , and it gives a faint glow . industrial designer: so , self-timed marketing: so if you have all the lights off in your living room , you 'll , you 'll temporarily see it . project manager: yeah . marketing: because usually you 're not fooling around for it for more than what ten seconds . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: okay , so user interface: yeah . marketing: so project manager: that 's probably feasible . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so , do you think that we should do the lighting up thing , and the glow-in-the-dark thing , and the shape of the numbers ? do we have to kind of decide what we 're gon na do with this . industrial designer: i think the shape of the numbers is a really good idea . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , okay . industrial designer: and i think that 's un unique as well . user interface: yeah . for visually impaired , yeah . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: i mean , i have n't seen that . and as you 're saying like numbers can wear off if they 're just sort of like painted on , you know printed . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , yeah . and it could , if it 's that softer rubber material it 'll be , maybe , um , uh , better for people with um els no industrial designer: durable . project manager: what 's it called , r_s_i_ , what was it that we were talking about ? industrial designer: oh yeah . yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . marketing: oh right , the project manager: yeah instead of like hard buttons . industrial designer: repetitive strain injury . project manager: okay . um , did we want to go for the glow-in-the-dark look ? industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: or did we want to go for the lighting up instantly ? user interface: if project manager: like should we do both ? or we can have one or the other ? because it might , for , for our design purposes , i mean , the lighting up thing might be better because glow-in-the-dark material has a funny kinda colour . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: and it might not go with different like face plates that we might come up with . marketing: i was gon na say , industrial designer: yeah . marketing: exactly . it the it might be perceived as tacky , glow-in-the-dark . project manager: yeah . marketing: it 's kind of like eighties neon-style . industrial designer: yeah , and we could marketing: um , whereas we 're trying to be trendy and fashionable . industrial designer: yeah there are now like loads , or a huge range of different colours that it could light up in as well , marketing: so industrial designer: which could like link in with the company colours . like it could be blue or green or yellow , user interface: project manager: right . marketing: mm-hmm . industrial designer: or like we 've just limited t with the , just ordinary phosphorescent so project manager: right . alright . so we 've decided on lighting up things . user interface: i was thinking though , if it was glow-in-the-dark , you could put the um real reaction symbol as glow-in-the-dark , and then it would be constantly advertised . industrial designer: yeah . every time the , that it lit up , you c that could light up as well . marketing: mm . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: or , or the , whate project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: but with the same thing , i mean . if you touch the button and then it could be , it could be lit up as well . marketing: that 's true . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . okay . project manager: is are you okay with that ? okay . cool . user interface: yeah . project manager: um alright . so i think that um that completes most of our um our more uh practical decisions . industrial designer: is project manager: and now it 's up to designing . and um making sure that this can be feasible . and do you have anything marketing: what um project manager: do you have anything to say ? marketing: oh sorry . yeah well , i was just gon na throw out there the thought about um personalising the remote control . um , it , you , 'cause you mentioned face plates . so i i dunno if there 's something that diff , you know like five different face plates . i dunno if this will start making it more complicated , but it could increase the popularity of the , of the remote . um industrial designer: okay . like you can have changeable um mobile covers or something . user interface: oh yeah . interchangeable thing ? marketing: yeah , project manager: like an ipod or something ? user interface: that would be good . industrial designer: yeah , or marketing: exactly , like an ipod . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . marketing: exactly . industrial designer: okay . marketing: or , or like mobile ph . project manager: like a cellphone ? yeah . marketing: and i dunno if we 'd want to go with like tv show themes or something . like a bart simpson faceplate . user interface: yeah , and then that would be uh more profitable like as a sideline to the remote as well . marketing: but industrial designer: yeah . project manager: mm-hmm . user interface: y could buy extra marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: accessories . marketing: exactly . you could start out with three , and if , if we hit it big then we can add some on . industrial designer: person user interface: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . well , that 's great . user interface: that 's a good idea . yeah . project manager: yeah . i think that we should incorporate that . industrial designer: interchangeable . project manager: 'cause that would n't be very expensive at all . industrial designer: um , als project manager: you 'd just get one mould , user interface: no . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: throw some plastic in it , you know . industrial designer: interchan and also possible i mean , uh , we could gain out of that by advertising certain tv shows , or project manager: yeah . well , that might be com problematic with um copyright issues . user interface: oh yeah . marketing: right . project manager: so , if it takes off then we 'll , we 'll , we 'll try that out . industrial designer: yeah . but if we , there is user interface: if w industrial designer: yeah . we could um , the environmental factor , we did n't bring that up again . project manager: right . marketing: right . project manager: we 'll have to do more research . like as of yet , that has nothing to do with , um , the way it 'll look . um , does it need to be reached a de industrial designer: yeah . project manager: do we need to reach a decision on that right now ? industrial designer: um , i 've project manager: because we need to investigate the financial implications . industrial designer: okay . marketing: project manager: okay . is it industrial designer: let 's project manager: does it need to be uh decided on now ? or should we industrial designer: i think we could probably leave that 'til later on , then . project manager: okay . good . alright then . anyone else have anything more to say before we close ? user interface: no . industrial designer: no . project manager: alright , well . let 's have lunch and we 'll discuss this later . user interface: okay . marketing: project manager: alright ? industrial designer: okay . thank you .

the marketing specialist threw out the idea of making the remote control cover changeable and personalized . the marketing specialist further suggested that they could incorporate the tv theme elements such as bart simpson into the cover . however , it might raise a question about copyright issues so they decided to delay the discussion .

summarize the meeting </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

the participants discussed how meetings would be transcribed , what kind of information to include in their corpus as well as how to structure it , issues with storing data , and their model . they were particularly concerned with how ibm could assist with transcribing meetings and how they would manage large amounts of data if they include more information in their corpus , given that they were running low on storage . they decided that they could store the data on tapes for backup , and that they would wait and see how ibm transcribes their meetings . as for the modeling , phd i reported several results and a few members of the team decided to further discuss progress in a smaller meeting later on .

summarize discussion on what to include in the meeting corpus and how to structure it </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

the discussion centered on the extent to which the recordings should be segmented for the corpus and which recordings should be included in the corpus . the team expressed that it would be helpful to filter out breath and non-verbal sounds . it also expressed that for two person conversations and transcripts that do not follow their general meeting setup , it could create a different directory .

summarize discussion on issues with data storage </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

the team felt that the current file system they were using was running out of space , specifically back-up capacity . they needed to figure out a way to back-up the data they were collecting . they decided that the tape system that icsi has is pretty reliable . but they needed to discuss the matter with the system administrator .

what did the participants think about what constitutes a meeting ? </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

the participants were skeptical that a two person conversation in the hallway constituted a meeting for their purposes . they thought that it would be okay to include this kind of data in their corpus for future researchers , but they should separate it . the professor has a strong opinion that these interactions were not actually meetings .

what did phd i think about segmentation ? </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

phd i thought that the team should re-evaluate recognition without cheating on the segmentation . phd i explained to the team that they had so far been using a simplified version of the scoring and brought up that thilo wanted to use recognizer alignments to train his speech detector . he was not sure how much hand labeling would be needed to generate data for the detector .

what did the professor think about storing data ? </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

the professor expressed that the team should not recycle backed up disk space and explained the rate at which they could acquire disks . he was surprised that burned cd 's wear out after a year or two . he thought that putting the data on tape was a good idea .

what did the participants think about using cd 's for backup ? </s> grad h: st grad f: so we 're on . grad h: yeah . that 's better . grad f: and , { comment } somewhere is my agenda . i think the most important thing is morgan wanted to talk about , uh , the arpa demo . professor d: well , so , here 's the thing . um , why do n't we s again start off with with , uh , yeah , i 'll get it . i 'll get the door . um , i think we want to start off with the agenda . and then , given that , uh , liz and andreas are gon na be ten , fifteen minutes late , we can try to figure out what we can do most effectively without them here . so so so , one thing is , yeah , talk about demo , grad f: ok . so , uh uh , ibm transcription status , professor d: ibm transcription . uh , what else ? grad f: professor d: what 's smartkom ? smartkom ? grad f: uh , we wan na talk about if w if we wan na add the data to the mar meeting recorder corpus . phd e: the data . the data which we are collecting here . professor d: what what what are we collecting here ? phd e: data ? grad f: so why do n't we have that on the agenda and we 'll we 'll get to it and talk about it ? phd e: the smartkom data ? professor d: yeah , right . phd e: yeah . professor d: uh , right . uh . grad f: uh , reorganization status . professor d: reorganization status . postdoc a: oh . files and directories ? professor d: files and directories . grad f: yep . uh - huh . absinthe , which is the multiprocessor unix linux . i think it was andreas wanted to talk about segmentation and recognition , and update on sri recognition experiments . professor d: um grad f: and then if ti if there 's time i wanted to talk about digits , but it looked like we were pretty full , so i can wait till next week . professor d: right . ok . well , let 's see . i think the a certainly the segmentation and recognition we wan na maybe focus on when an - andreas is here since that was particularly his thing . phd e: and also the smartkom thing should b professor d: smartkom also , andreas . absinthe , i think also he has sort of been involved in a lot of those things . grad f: at least , professor d: yeah . grad f: yeah , he 'll t he 'll probably be interested . professor d: yeah . grad f: but . professor d: um so , i mean , i think they 'll be inter i 'll be interested in all this , but but , uh , probably , if we had to pick something that we would talk on for ten minutes or so while they 're coming here . or i guess it would be , you think , reorganization status , or ? grad f: yeah . i mean , i think , chuck was the one who added out the agenda item . i do n't really have anything to say other than that we still have n't done it . phd b: well , i mean , i uh just basically that grad f: so . phd b: maybe i said maybe we said this before just that we met and we talked about it and we sort of have a plan for getting things organized and postdoc a: and i and i think a crucial part of that is the idea of of not wanting to do it until right before the next level zero back - up so that there wo n't be huge number of of added , phd b: right . postdoc a: uh grad f: right . phd b: that that was basically it . not not much @ @ grad f: although dave basically said that if we wan na do it , just tell him and he 'll do a d level zero then . postdoc a: yeah . uh - huh . oh , excellent . grad f: so . postdoc a: oh , good . phd b: oh , so maybe we should just go ahead and get everything ready , and grad f: yep . so , i think we do need to talk a little bit about well , we do n't need to do it during this meeting . phd b: yeah . grad f: we have a little more to discuss . but , uh , we 're we 're basically ready to do it . and , uh , i have some web pages on ts { comment } more of the background . so , naming conventions and things like that , that i 've been trying to keep actually up to date . so . and i 've been sharing them with u - d uw folks also . postdoc a: i 'm sorry , you 've been what ? showing them ? professor d: ok . postdoc a: sharing them . grad f: sharing them with the uw folks . postdoc a: ok . ok . professor d: ok . well , maybe uh , since that that was a pretty short one , maybe we should talk about the ibm transcription status . someone can fill in liz and andreas later . uh grad f: ok . so , we , uh we did another version of the beeps , where we separated each beeps with a spoken digit . chuck came up here and recorded some di himself speaking some digits , and so it just goes `` beep one beep `` and then the phrase , and then `` beep two beep `` and then the phrase . and that seems pretty good . um , i think they 'll have a b easier time keeping track of where they are in the file . phd e: and we have done that on the automatic segmentations . grad f: and we did it with the automatic segmentation , and i do n't think we ne we did n't look at it in detail . we just sent it to ibm . we we sorta spot - checked it . phd b: i listened to probably , uh , five or ten minutes of it from the beginning . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , really ? phd b: yeah . grad f: ok . phd b: and grad f: i sorta spot - checked here and there and it sounded pretty good . so . i think it 'll work . professor d: ok . grad f: and , uh , we 'll just hafta see what we get back from them . uh phd b: and the main thing will be if we can align what they give us with what we sent them . i mean , that 's the crucial part . grad f: right . phd b: and i think we 'll be able to do that at with this new beep format . grad f: yep . well , i think it 's also they are much less likely to d have errors . phd b: mm - hmm . grad f: i mean , so the problem wi last time is that there were errors in the transcripts where they put beeps where there were n't any , or and they put in extraneous beeps . phd b: right . yeah . grad f: and with the numbers there , it 's much less likely . phd b: yeah , one interesting note is uh , or problem i dunno if this was just because of how i play it back , i say , uh , snd - play and then the file , every once in a while , @ @ { comment } uh , like a beep sounds like it 's cut into two beeps . phd e: yeah . into two pieces . phd b: yeah , and i i dunno if that 's an , uh , artifact of playback phd e: yeah . yep . phd b: bu uh , i do n't think it 's probably in the original file . um , but , uh phd e: i recognize that , too . yeah . grad f: ha . that 's interesting . i did n't hear that . phd b: yeah . but with this new format , um , that hopefully they 're not hearing that , and if they are , it should n't throw them . phd e: yep . phd b: so . grad f: well , maybe we better listen to it again , make sure , but , i mean , certainly the software should n't do that , phd b: yeah . that 's what i thought . grad f: so . postdoc a: mm - hmm . phd b: i it 's probably just , you know , mmm , somehow the audio device gets hung for a second , phd e: yeah . some latency or something . grad f: hiccups . phd e: yeah ? postdoc a: as long as they have one number , and they know that there 's only one beep maximum that goes with that number . phd b: or phd e: yeah . phd b: yeah . right . grad f: yeah . the only the only part that might be confusing is when chuck is reading digits . phd b: right . phd e: yep . postdoc a: well , you know , actually , are we having them phd b: so th grad f: `` seven four eight beep seven beep eight three two `` . postdoc a: yeah , but are we having them do digits ? grad f: yes . because , uh , we do n't we did n't in order to cut them out we 'd have to listen to it . phd b: we we did n't cut those out . phd e: yeah . they are not transcribed yet . so . yeah . postdoc a: ok . phd e: yeah . grad f: and we wanted to avoid doing that , postdoc a: ok . grad f: so we they are transcribing the digits . postdoc a: ok . phd b: we can we can ignore it when we get it back , grad f: although we could tell them { comment } we could tell them , if you hear someone reading a digits string just say `` bracket digit bracket `` phd b: huh . grad f: and do n't bother actually computing the di writing down the digits . phd b: yeah . postdoc a: that 'd be great . that 'd be what i 'm having the transcribers here do , cuz it can be extracted later . grad f: yep . and then i wanted to talk about but as i said i we may not have time what we should do about digits . we have a whole pile of digits that have n't been transcribed . professor d: le - let 's talk about it , because that 's that 's something that i i know andreas is less interested in than liz is , grad f: ok . professor d: so , you know . it 's good grad f: do we have anything else to say about transcription ? about ibm stuff ? phd b: uh , brian i i sent bresset sent brian a message about the meeting and i have n't heard back yet . so . i g hope he got it and hopefully he 's grad f: ok . postdoc a: hmm . phd b: maybe he 's gone , i dunno . he did n't even reply to my message . so . i should probably ping him just to make sure that he got it . grad f: alright . so , we have a whole bunch of digits , if we wan na move on to digits . professor d: actually , maybe i one one relate more related thing in transcription . so that 's the ibm stuff . we 've got that sorted out . um , how 're we doing on the on the rest of it ? postdoc a: we 're doing well . i i hire i 've hired two extra people already , expect to hire two more . grad f: hmm . postdoc a: and , um , i 've prepared , um , uh , a set of five which i 'm which i 'm calling set two , which are now being edited by my head transcriber , in terms of spelling errors and all that . she 's also checking through and mar and and monitoring , um , the transcription of another transcriber . you know , i mean , she 's going through and doing these kinds of checks . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and , i 've moved on now to what i 'm calling set three . i sort of thought if i do it in sets groups of five , then i can have , like , sort of a a parallel processing through through the the current . professor d: uh - huh . postdoc a: and and you indicated to me that we have a g a goal now , for the for the , um , the , uh , darpa demo , of twenty hours . so , i 'm gon na go up to twenty hours , be sure that everything gets processed , and released , and { comment } and that 's that 's what my goal is . package of twenty hours right now , and then once that 's done , move on to the next . professor d: yeah , uh , so twenty hours . but i guess the other thing is that , um , that that 's kinda twenty hours asap because the longer before the demo we actually have the twenty hours , the more time it 'll be for people to actually do cool things with it . postdoc a: mm - hmm . good . i 'm i 'm hiring people who , uh , really are professor d: so . ok . postdoc a: they would like to do it full - time , several of these people . and and i do n't think it 's possible , really , to do this full - time , but , that what it shows is motivation to do as many hours as possible . professor d: mm - hmm . grad f: it 'll keep your accuracy up . yep . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: and they 're really excellent . professor d: yeah . well , that 's good . postdoc a: yeah . got a good core group now . professor d: yeah , i mean , i guess the so the difference if if , um , if the ibm stuff works out , the difference in the job would be that they p primarily would be checking through things that were already done by someone else ? postdoc a: again . mm - hmm . professor d: is that most of what it ? grad f: and correcting . professor d: i mean correcting . grad f: correcting . we 'll we 'll expect that they 'll have to move some time bins and do some corrections . postdoc a: and i you know , i 've also d uh , discovered so with the new transcriber i 'm um so uh , lem me say that my , uh so , um at present , um , the people have been doing these transcriptions a channel at a time . and , that sort of , um , is useful , and t you know , and then once in a while they 'll have to refer to the other channels to clear something up . ok . well , i realize that , um , w i we we 're using the pre - segmented version , and , um , the pre - segmented version is extremely useful , and would n't it be , useful also to have the visual representation of those segments ? and so i 've uh , i , uh , uh , i 've { comment } trained the new one uh , the new the newest one , to , um , use the visual from the channel that is gon na be transcribed at any given time . and that 's just amazingly helpful . because what happens then , is you scan across the signal and once in a while you 'll find a blip that did n't show up in the pre - segmentation . grad f: oh , right . postdoc a: and that 'll be something like i it 's ver it 's interesting . grad f: i see what you mean . a backchannel , or postdoc a: once in a while it 's a backchannel . phd e: yep . postdoc a: sometimes it seems to be , um , similar to the ones that are being picked up . grad f: mm - hmm . postdoc a: and they 're rare events , but you can really go through a meeting very quickly . you just you just , you know , yo you s you scroll from screen to screen , looking for blips . and , i think that we 're gon na end up with , uh better coverage of the backchannels , professor d: yeah . postdoc a: but at the same time we 're benefitting tremendously from the pre - segmentation because there are huge places where there is just absolutely no activity at all . and , uh , the audio quality is so good professor d: mm - hmm . phd b: so they can they can , um , scroll through that pretty quick ? postdoc a: yeah . mm - hmm . phd b: that 's great . postdoc a: yeah . so i think that that 's gon na , also eh , { comment } you know , speed the efficiency of this part of the process . professor d: hmm . ok . uh , yeah . so , uh yeah . so let 's talk about the digits , since they 're not here yet . grad f: uh , so , we have a whole bunch of digits that we 've read and we have the forms and so on , um , but only a small number of that ha well , not a small number only a subset of that has been transcribed . and so we need to decide what we wan na do . and , uh , liz and andreas actually they 're not here , but , they did say at one point that they thought they could do a pretty good job of just doing a forced alignment . and , again , i do n't think we 'll be able to do with that alone , because , um , sometimes people correct themselves and things like that . but so , i was just wondering what people thought about how automated can we make the process of finding where the people read the digits , doing a forced alignment , and doing the timing . professor d: well , forced alignment would be one thing . what about just actually doing recognition ? grad f: well , we we know what they read , because we have the forms . professor d: no , they make mistakes . grad f: right . but , the point is that we wan na get a set of clean digits . phd b: you 're talking about as a pre - processing step . professor d: right . phd b: right , morgan ? professor d: um phd b: is that what you 're ? professor d: yeah , i 'm i 'm not quite sure what i 'm talking about . i mean i i mean , uh , we 're talking about digits now . and and so , um , there 's a bunch of stuff that has n't been marked yet . uh . and , um , there 's the issue that that they we know what what was said , but do we ? grad f: i mean , so one option i professor d: because people make mistakes and stuff . i was just asking , just out of curiosity , if if with , uh uh , the sri recognizer getting one percent word error , uh , would we would we do better ? so , if you do a forced alignment but the force but the but the transcription you have is wrong because they actually made mistakes , uh , or false starts , it 's it 's much less c it 's much less common than one percent ? grad f: but that 's pretty uncommon . um , if we could really get one percent on professor d: we should be able to . grad f: well , i guess yeah , i guess if we segmented it , we could get one percent on digits . professor d: right ? phd b: yeah . professor d: yeah . so that 's just my question . i 'm not saying it should be one way or the other , but it 's if grad f: but , well , there there 're a couple different of doing it . we could use the tools i 've already developed and transcribe it . hire some people , or use the transcribers to do it . we could let ibm transcribe it . you know , they 're doing it anyway , and unless we tell them different , they 're gon na transcribe it . um , or we could try some automated methods . professor d: well grad f: and my my tendency right now is , well , if ibm comes back with this meeting and the transcript is good , just let them do it . professor d: yeah , it 's y you raised a point , kind of , uh , euphemistically but , i mean , m maybe it is a serious problem . ho - what will they do when they go hear `` beep seven beep seven three five two `` i mean , you think they 'll we 'll get ? grad f: it 's pretty distinct . professor d: yeah ? grad f: the beeps are pre - recorded . phd b: it 'll { comment } only be a problem for m for mine . phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well it it well , it 'd be preceded by `` i 'm reading transcript so - and - so `` ? phd b: yeah . grad f: yes . postdoc a: so , i think if they 're processing it at grad f: i mean , it 'll be it will be in the midst of a digit string . professor d: yeah . grad f: so i mean it sure , there there might be a place where it 's `` beep seven beep eight beep eight beep `` . but , you know , they they 're they 're gon na macros for inserting the beep marks . and so , i i do n't think it 'll be a problem . we 'll have to see , but i do n't think it 's gon na be a problem . professor d: ok . well , i i i dunno , i i think that that 's if they are in fact going to transcribe these things , uh , certainly any process that we 'd have to correct them , or whatever is needs to be much less elaborate for digits than for other stuff . grad f: right . professor d: so , why not ? sure . that was it ? grad f: that was it . just , what do we do with digits ? professor d: ok . grad f: we have so many of them , and it 'd be nice to actually do something with them . professor d: well , we we we wan na have them . yeah , i phd i: you mean there 're more than ten ? grad f: anything else ? your mike is a little low there . professor d: i in berkeley , yeah . so , uh you you have to go a little early , right ? at twenty phd i: well , i can stay till about , uh , three forty . professor d: alright . so le let 's make sure we do the ones that that , uh , saved you . phd i: yeah . mm - hmm . professor d: so there was some uh in in adam 's agenda list , he had something from you about segmentation this last recognition ? phd i: well , yeah . so this is just partly to inform everybody , um , and and of course to get , um , input . grad f: oops . phd i: um , so , uh , we had a discussion don and liz and i had discussion last week about how to proceed with , uh , you know , with don 's work , phd e: ch phd i: and and and , uh , one of the obvious things that occur to us was that we 're since we now have thilo 's segmenter and it works , you know , amazingly well , um , we should actually basically re - evaluate the recognition , um , results using you know , without cheating on the segmentations . phd e: so phd i: and , that should be fairly phd e: and how do we find the transcripts for those so that ? yeah . the references for for those segments ? phd i: oh , ok . so , there 's actually phd e: it 's not that phd i: why do you ask ? grad f: i could phd i: no , actually , um , nist has , um m a fairly sophisticated scoring program that you can give a , um a time , grad f: hand ones . phd g: well phd e: ok . phd i: uh you know , you basically just give two time - marked sequences of words , and it computes the um the , { comment } uh { comment } you know , the the th phd b: it does all the work for you . phd i: it does all the work for you . phd b: yeah . phd e: ok . phd i: so , it we just and we use that actually in hub - five to do the scoring . um . so what we 've been using so far was sort of a simplified version of the scoring . and we can we can handle the the the type of problem we have here . phd e: so , basically you give some time constraints for for the references and for for the hypothesis , phd i: so , we ha yeah . right . phd e: and yeah , ok . phd g: yeah . phd i: right . phd g: maybe the start of your speech and the end of it , phd i: so do phd e: ok . phd g: or stuff like that . phd i: right . it does time - constrained word - alignment . phd e: ok . phd i: so . so that should be possible . i mean that should n't be a problem . uh , so that was the one thing , and the other was that , um what was the other problem ? oh ! that thilo wanted to use the recognizer alignments to train up his , um , speech detector . phd e: yeah . phd i: um , so that we could use , uh you know there would n't be so much hand labelling needed to , uh to generate training data for for the speech detector . phd e: yeah . i 'm just in progress of of doing that . so . phd i: and i think you 're in the process of doing that . phd e: yeah . phd i: so , you can { comment } you can phd b: it 'll give you a lot more data , too . wo n't it ? phd e: yeah . so , it 's basically s i think , eight meetings or something which which i 'm using , and , it 's before it was twenty minutes of one meeting . phd i: mm - hmm . phd e: so should { comment } be a little bit better . phd i: right . phd b: great . phd i: that wo n't be perfect the alignments are n't perfect , phd e: yeah . but phd i: but , um , it 's probably still better to have all this extra data , than phd g: yeah . phd e: yeah . yep . phd i: yeah . phd e: we 'll see that . phd i: yeah . professor d: ok . phd g: actually , i had a question about that . if you find that you can lower the false alarms that you get where there 's no speech , that would be useful for us to know . so , um phd e: there were the false alarms . phd g: yeah . so , r right now you get f fal you know , false false , uh , speech regions when it 's just like , um , breath or something like that , phd e: ok . yeah . yep . phd g: and i 'd be interested to know the wha if you retrain um , phd e: yeah . phd g: do those actually go down or not ? because of phd e: yeah . i 'll can make an can , like , make a c comparison of of the old system to the to the new one , and then phd g: yeah , just to see if by doing nothing in the modeling of just having that training data wh what happens . phd e: yeah . yeah . yep . professor d: um another one that we had on adam 's agenda that definitely involved you was s something about smartkom ? grad f: right . so , rob porzel eh , porzel ? and the , uh porzel and the , uh , smartkom group are collecting some dialogues . phd i: porzel . porzel . grad f: basically they have one person sitting in here , looking at a picture , and a wizard sitting in another room somewhere . and , uh , they 're doing a travel task . and , uh , it involves starting i believe starting with a it 's it 's always the wizard , but it starts where the wizard is pretending to be a computer and it goes through a , uh , speech generation system . phd e: yeah . actually , it 's changed to a synthesis for for the first part now . grad f: synthesis system . phd e: yeah . grad f: um , and then , it goes to a real wizard and they 're evaluating that . and they wanted to use this equipment , and so the w question came up , is well , here 's some more data . should this be part of the corpus or not ? and my attitude was yes , because there might be people who are using this corpus for acoustics , as opposed to just for language . um , or also for dialogue of various sorts . um , so it 's not a meeting . right ? because it 's two people and they 're not face to face . professor d: wait a minute . so , i just wanted to understand it , cuz i i 'm uh , had n't quite followed this process . phd e: yeah . professor d: um . so , it 's wizard in the sen usual sense that the person who is asking the questions does n't know that it 's , uh , a machi not a machine ? phd i: right . grad f: at the beginning . phd i: actually actually , w w the the we do this i dunno who came up with it , but i think it 's a really clever idea . we simulate a computer breakdown halfway through the session , and so then after that , the person 's told that they 're now talking to a , uh to a human . professor d: yeah . phd e: it 's a human operator . professor d: yeah . phd e: yeah . grad f: but of course they do n't know that it 's the same person both times . phd i: so , we we collect we collect both human - computer and human - human data , essentially , in the same session . professor d: you might wan na try collecting it the other way around sometime , saying that th the computer is n't up yet postdoc a: hmm . professor d: and then so then you can separate it out whether it 's the beginning or end kind of effects . phd i: that 's an idea . professor d: but , yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: that 's a good idea . grad f: `` i have to go now . you can talk to the computer . `` phd b: it 's a lot more believable , too , grad f: `` no ! `` phd b: if you tell them that they 're the computer part is running on a windows machine . and the whole breakdown thing kinda makes sense . phd i: o just just reboot it . grad f: abort abort , retry , fail ? phd g: so did they actually save the far - field data ? phd e: yes . grad f: well , this was this was the question . phd g: cuz at first they were n't they were n't sa phd i: yeah . grad f: so so they were saying they were not going to , phd e: yeah . phd g: ok . grad f: and i said , `` well that 's silly , if if we 're gon na try to do it for a corpus , there might be people who are interested in acoustics . `` phd g: yeah . phd i: wow . phd e: no . phd g: or phd e: projector { comment } we were not saying we are not doing it . phd g: yeah . professor d: s phd e: we wer we just wanted to do phd i: no , the the question is do we save one or two far - field channels or all of them ? phd g: right . phd e: yeah . yeah . grad f: i i see no reason not to do all of them . professor d: um grad f: that that if we have someone who is doing acoustic studies , uh , it 's nice to have the same for every recording . phd g: nnn . yeah . phd i: hmm . professor d: so , what is the purpose of this recording ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: this is to get acoustic and language model training data for smartkom . ok . phd i: it 's to be traini to b training data and development data for the smartkom system . phd e: the english system ? yeah . phd i: yeah . right . right . phd b: where does this ? professor d: phd g: maybe we can have him vary the microphones , too , professor d: well , phd e: b phd g: or they 're different s speakers . grad f: right . so so so for their usage , they do n't need anything . professor d: so why not ? phd e: yeah . grad f: right ? phd e: but but i 'm not sure about the legal aspect of of that . is is there some contract with smartkom or something about the data ? phd i: yeah . phd e: what they or , is is that our data which we are collecting here , professor d: we 've never signed anything that said that we could n't use anything that we did . phd e: or ? ok . ok . phd i: we were n't supposed to collect any data . phd e: so . ok . professor d: yeah . phd e: so . yeah , th th that was the question . phd i: this was all phd e: if if ? yeah . phd i: yeah . professor d: no that 's not a problem . phd e: basically . professor d: i l look , it seems to me that if we 're doing it anyway and we 're doing it for these these purposes that we have , and we have these distant mikes , we definitely should re should save it all as long as we 've got disk space , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: and disk is pretty cheap . phd i: ok . professor d: so should we save it ? grad f: and then professor d: now th yeah . so we save it because it 's it it 's potentially useful . and now , what do we do with it is is a s separate question . grad f: right . professor d: i mean , anybody who 's training something up could choose to put it eh , to u include this or not . phd i: right . professor d: i i would not say it was part of the meetings corpus . it is n't . but it 's some other data we have , and if somebody doing experiment wants to train up including that then they can . right ? phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: so it 's it it i guess it the begs the question of what is the meeting corpus . so if , at uw they start recording two - person hallway conversations is that part of the meeting corpus ? professor d: i think it 's i i think i th think the idea of two or more people conversing with one another is key . grad f: well , this has two or more people conversing with each other . professor d: nnn , well phd e: yeah . postdoc a: well this grad f: they 're just not face to face . phd g: what if we just give it a a name like we give these meetings a name ? professor d: no , it does n't . right ? it has grad f: i mean , that was my intention . phd g: and then later on some people will consider it a meeting and some people wo n't , postdoc a: well this professor d: yeah . grad f: that was my intention . so so s so part of the reason that i wanted to bring this up is , do we wan na handle it as a special case or do we wan na fold it in , phd g: and just give it a title . postdoc a: oh . professor d: i think it is a s grad f: we give everyone who 's involved as their own user id , give it session i ds , let all the tools that handle meeting recorder handle it , or do we wan na special case it ? and if we were gon na special case it , who 's gon na do that ? phd e: so . phd i: well , it it makes sense to handle it with the same infrastructure , since we do n't want to duplicate things unnecessarily . phd e: it it it postdoc a: i think phd i: but as far as distributing it , we should n't label it as part of this meeting corpus . professor d: yeah . phd i: we should let it be its own corp postdoc a: well it 's it well , because grad f: i do n't see why not . it 's just a different topic . postdoc a: i ha i have an extra point , which is the naturalness issue . because we have , like , meetings that have a reason . that 's one of the reasons that we were talking about this . and and those and this sounds like it 's more of an experimental setup . professor d: yeah . postdoc a: it 's got a different purpose . professor d: it 's scenario - based , it 's it 's human - computer interface it 's really pretty different . postdoc a: yeah . professor d: but i i i have no problem with somebody folding it in for some experiment they 're gon na do , but i do n't think i it it does n't match anything that we 've described about meetings . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: whereas everything that we talked about them doing at at uw and so forth really does . they 're actually talking grad f: ok . so w so what does that mean for how we are gon na organize things ? postdoc a: hmm . phd e: yeah . professor d: you can you can again , as as i think andreas was saying , if you wan na use the same tools and the same conventions , there 's no problem with that . it 's just that it 's , you know , different directory , it 's called something different , it 's you know . it is different . you ca n't just fold it in as if it 's i mean , digits are different , too . right ? grad f: yeah , but those are folded in , phd i: it might also be potentially confusing . grad f: and it 's just you just mark the transcripts differently . so so one option is you fold it in , phd i: right . grad f: and just simply in the file you mark somewhere that this is this type of interaction , rather than another type of interaction . phd i: yeah , i th professor d: well , i don i would n't call reading digits `` meetings `` . right ? i mean , we we we were doing grad f: well , but but , i put it under the same directory tree . professor d: well grad f: you know , it 's in `` user doctor speech data mr `` . phd g: can we just have a directory called , like , `` other stuff `` ? grad f: other . phd g: and well or , i dunno . professor d: i mean , i do n't care what directory tree you have it under . phd g: and and just , um , store it there . professor d: right ? i mean that 's just a grad f: ok . my preference is to have a single procedure so that i do n't have to think too much about things . phd i: yes . phd g: i mean professor d: yeah . grad f: and , just have a marking . professor d: o - you you can use whatever procedure you want that 's p convenient for you . grad f: if we do it any other way that means that we need a separate procedure , and someone has to do that . professor d: all i 'm saying is that there 's no way that we 're gon na tell people that reading digits is meetings . and similarly we 're not gon na tell them that someone talking to a computer to get travel information is meetings . grad f: right . professor d: those are n't meetings . but if it makes it easier for you to pu fold them in the same procedures and have them under the same directory tree , knock yourself out . phd b: there 's a couple other questions that i have too , professor d: you know ? phd b: and and one of them is , what about , uh , consent issues ? and the other one is , what about transcription ? are ? phd e: transcription is done in munich . phd b: ok . so we do n't have to worry about transcribing it ? professor d: alright . phd e: yeah . grad f: so , w we will hafta worry about format . phd i: that 's a that 's another argument to keep it separate , because it 's gon na follow the smartkom transcription conventions and not the icsi meeting transcription conventions . phd e: yeah . grad f: oh , ok . professor d: ah . good point . grad f: ok . well , i did n't realize that . that 's that 's a professor d: good point . but i 'm sure no one would have a problem with our folding it in for some acoustic modeling or or some things . um . do we h do we have , uh , um , american - born folk , uh , reading german german , uh , pla uh , place names and so forth ? is that ? phd e: yeah . phd i: exactly . professor d: yeah , great . phd e: yeah . grad f: yep . phd i: yeah . grad f: they they even have a reading list . phd b: i bet that sounds good , huh ? professor d: yeah . grad f: it 's pretty funny . phd i: yeah . phd e: you can do that if you want . phd b: ok . professor d: yeah . phd b: i dunno if you want that . professor d: right . phd i: yeah . postdoc a: hmm . professor d: heidelberg grad f: so phd i: exactly grad f: disk might eventually be an issue so we might we we might need to , uh , get some more disk pretty soon . phd i: do you wan na be a subject ? professor d: yeah , i be pretty good . phd i: we yeah . grad f: we 're about we 're about half halfway through our disk right now . phd b: yeah . phd i: that was one of our concerns . phd b: are we only half ? i thought we were more than that . grad f: we 're probably a little more than that because we 're using up some space that we should n't be on . so , once everything gets converted over to the disks we 're supposed to be using we 'll be probably , uh , seventy - five percent . phd b: well , when i was looking for space for thilo , i found one disk that had , uh , i think it was nine gigs and another one had seventeen . grad f: yep . phd b: and everything else was sorta committed . uh grad f: were those backed - up or non - backed - up ? phd b: those were non - backed - up . phd e: non - back - up . grad f: right . so that 's different . phd b: s oh , you 're talking about backed - up . grad f: i 'm much more concerned about the backed - up . the non - backed - up , phd b: i have n't looked to see how much of that we have . grad f: yeah , i is cheap . i mean , if we need to we can buy a disk , hang it off a s uh , workstation . if it 's not backed - up the sysadmins do n't care too much . professor d: yeah . so , i mean , pretty much anytime we need a disk , we can get it at the rate that we 're phd i: you can i should n't be saying this , but , you can just you know , since the back - ups are every night , you can recycle the backed - up diskspace . grad f: yeah . but that 's that 's that 's risky . professor d: yeah . you really should n't be saying grad f: mmm . mmm . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: yeah , that 's right . phd i: i did n't say that . grad f: beep that out . professor d: da - we had allowed dave to listen to these these , uh , recordings . phd i: right . professor d: um yeah , i me and there 's been this conversation going on about getting another file server , and and we can do that . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: we 'll take the opportunity and get another big raft of of disk , i guess . grad f: yeah . it 's really the back - up issue rather than the file server issue . phd i: well , i think { comment } i think there 's an argument for having you know , you could use our old file server for for disks that have data that is very rarely accessed , and then have a fast new file server for data that is , um , heavily accessed . grad f: yeah . my understanding is , the issue is n't really the file server . phd i: yeah . grad f: we could always put more disks on . phd i: yeah . it 's the back it 's the back - up capaci grad f: it 's the back - up system . phd i: yeah . grad f: so which is near saturation , apparently . so . phd b: i think i think the file server could become an issue as we get a whole bunch more new compute machines . professor d: soon . phd b: and we 've got , you know , fifty machines trying to access data off of abbott at once . grad f: well , we 're alright for now because the network 's so slow . phd i: i mean , i think i think we 've raised this before and someone said this is not a reliable way to do it , but the what about putting the stuff on , like , c - cd - rom or dvd or something ? grad f: yeah . that was me . i was the one who said it was not reliable . the - they they wear out . phd i: ok . oh , ok . grad f: yeah . the the th phd i: but they wear out just from sitting on the shelf ? grad f: yep . absolutely . phd i: or from being read and read ? grad f: no . read and write do n't hurt them too much unless you scratch them . phd i: oh , ok . grad f: but the r the write once , and the read - writes , do n't last . so you do n't wa you do n't wan na put ir un reproduceable data on them . phd i: uh - huh . phd b: wear out after what amount of time ? grad f: year or two . postdoc a: would it be ? professor d: year or two ? grad f: yep . professor d: wow . postdoc a: hmm . phd i: but if that then you would think you 'd hear much more clamoring about data loss phd e: yeah . phd i: and professor d: i mean , yeah , all the l grad f: i i do n't know many people who do it on cd . i mean , they 're the most fo professor d: ldc - all the ldc distributions are on cd - rom . phd g: yeah . grad f: they 're on cd , but they 're not tha that 's not the only source . phd g: like grad f: they have them on disk . and they burn new ones every once in a while . but if you go if you go k phd i: but , you know , we have phd g: but we have like thirty you know , from ten years ago ? professor d: we have all sorts of cd - roms from a long time ago . phd g: no . phd e: yeah . phd g: yeah ! grad f: well , th th ok . phd g: ten years ago . phd i: right . phd g: ninety - one , and they 're still all fine . professor d: yeah . grad h: were they burned or were they pressed ? phd g: uh , both . i 've burned them and they 're still ok . grad h: yeah . grad f: the the pressed ones last for phd g: i mean , usually they 're grad f: well , not forever , they 've been finding even those degrade . professor d: oh , i see . grad f: but , uh , the burned ones i mean , when i say two or three years what i 'm saying is that i have had disks which are gone in a year . phd g: that 's what i grad f: on the average , it 'll probably be three or four years . but , uh i i you do n't want to per p have your only copy on a media that fails . phd i: mmm . grad f: and they do . um , if you have them professionally pressed , y you know , they 're good for decades . phd i: so how about ? so so how about putting them on that plus , like on a on on dat or some other medium that is n't risky ? grad f: i think th um , we can already put them on tape . and the tape is hi is very reliable . phd i: ok . mm - hmm . grad f: so the the only issue is then if we need access to them . so that 's fine f if we do n't need access to them . phd i: right . well , if if if you if they last say , they actually last , like , five years , huh , in in the typical case , and and occasionally you might need to recreate one , and then you get your tape out , but otherwise you do n't . ca n't you just you just put them on ? grad h: so you just archive it on the tape , and then put it on cd as well ? phd i: yeah . right . grad f: oh . so you 're just saying put them on c ds for normal access . grad h: yeah . phd i: right . phd b: what you grad f: yeah . i mean , you can do that but that 's pretty annoying , because the c ds are so slow . phd g: see yeah . grad h: yeah . phd i: mmm . phd b: what 'd be nice is a system that re - burned the c ds every year . phd g: h everytime it was a `` gon na `` `` gon na die `` . professor d: well grad f: well , i mean , the c ds are are an op phd e: yeah . phd i: it 's like like dynamic ra dram . phd e: just before . phd b: yeah . phd g: just before they be before it goes bad , it burns them in . grad f: the the cd is an alternative to tape . grad h: yeah . grad f: icsi already has a perfectly good tape system and it 's more reliable . professor d: you know i would think grad f: so for archiving , we 'll just use tape . phd i: one one thing i do n't understand is , if you have the data if if you if the meeting data is put on disk exactly once , then it 's backed - up once and the back - up system should never have to bother with it , uh , more than once . grad f: well , regardless well , first of all there was , um , a problem with the archive in that i was every once in a while doing a chmod on all the directories an or recursive chmod and chown , because they were n't getting set correctly every once in a while , phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: and i was just , doing a minus r star , not realizing that that caused it to be re - backed - up . phd i: mm - hmm . phd g: ah . grad f: but normally you 're correct . but even without that , the back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: but but this back - up system is smart enough to figure out that something has n't changed and does n't need to be backed - up again . professor d: the b i think th the at least the once tha that you put it on , it would it would { comment } kill that . grad f: sure , but we still have enough changed that the nightly back - ups are starting to take too long . phd i: ok . so so then , if so so then , let 's professor d: so . grad f: it has nothing to do with the meeting . it 's just the general icsi back - up system is becoming saturated . phd i: right . ok . right . so , what if we buy , uh uh , what what do they call these , um high density ? grad f: well , why do n't you have this have a this conversation with dave johnson tha rather than with me ? phd i: no , no . because this is maybe something that we can do without involving dave , and and , putting more burden on him . how about we buy , uh uh uh , one of these high density tape drives ? and we put the data actually on non - backed - up disks . and we do our own back - up once and for all all , and then and we do n't have to bother this @ @ up ? grad f: actually , you know , we could do that just with the tape with the current tape . phd i: i dunno what the these tapes uh , at some point these i dunno . what kind of tape drive is it ? grad f: i dunno but it 's an automatic robot so it 's very convenient . phd i: is it is ? professor d: wh the o the one that we have ? grad f: you just run a program to restore them . phd i: right . professor d: the i mean grad f: yeah . phd i: but it might interfere with their back - up schedule , phd g: but professor d: no , we have s we do n't we have our own ? phd i: eh . professor d: something wi th that does n't that is n't used by the back - up gang ? do n't we have something downstairs ? postdoc a: well they phd b: what kinda tape drive ? professor d: just in ? yeah . grad f: well but no , but andreas 's point is a good one . and we do n't have to do anything ourselves to do that . they 're already right now on tape . phd i: right . grad f: right . so your your point is , and i think it 's a good one , that we could just get more disk and put it there . phd i: mmm . on an xh uh , x x whatever partition . grad f: yeah . that 's not a bad idea . phd i: yeah . professor d: yeah , that 's basically what i was gon na say , is that a disk is is so cheap it 's es essentially , you know , close to free . and the only thing that costs is the back - up issue , eh , to first order . grad f: so once it 's on tape phd i: right . right . professor d: and we can take care of that by putting it on non - back up drives and just backing it up once onto this tape . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: i think that 's a good idea . phd i: right . professor d: oh . yeah . phd i: ok . professor d: good . it 's good . phd g: so , who 's gon na do these back - ups ? the people that collect it ? grad f: uh well , i 'll talk to dave , and and see what th how what the best way of doing that is . phd b: it 's probably gon na n grad f: there 's a little utility that will manually burn a tape for you , and that 's probably the right way to do it . phd b: yeah , and we should probably make that part of the procedure for recording the meetings . phd g: well , s grad f: yep . phd g: yeah . that 's what i 'm wondering , if grad f: well we 're g we 're gon na automate that . phd g: ok . grad f: my intention is to do a script that 'll do everything . phd g: i mean , you do n't have to physically put a tape in the drive ? grad f: no . it 's all tape robot , phd g: or s ? s ? { comment } oh , ok . grad f: so you just sit down at your computer and you type a command . phd g: so it 's just oh , ok . phd i: yeah , but then you 're effectively using the resources of the back - up system . or is that a different tape robot ? grad f: yeah . phd g: but not at the same time . grad f: but y but you would be anyway . phd b: no , no , no . grad f: right ? phd b: he 's saying get a whole different drive . grad f: because phd i: no , no . see grad f: but there 's no reason to do that . phd i: yeah , just give a dedi grad f: it we already have it there and it it 's phd i: well , i 'm saying is @ @ i if you go to dave , and and and ask him `` can i use your tape robot ? `` , he will say , `` well that 's gon na screw up our back - up operation . `` grad f: no , we wo n't . he 'll say `` if if that means that it 's not gon na be backed - up standardly , great . `` professor d: he - i dave has has promoted this in the past . so i do n't think he 's actually against it . grad f: yeah . it 's it 's definitely no problem . phd i: oh , ok . alright . professor d: yeah . phd i: alright . professor d: ok . phd i: good . phd g: what about if the times overlap with the normal back - up time ? grad f: um , it 's it 's just it 's just a utility which queues up . it just queues it up and and when it 's available , it will copy it . phd g: ok . professor d: yeah . grad f: and then you can tell it to then remove it from the disk or you can , you know , do it a a few days later or whatever you wan na do , after you confirm that it 's really backed - up . phd g: ok . grad f: nw ? postdoc a: you saying nw archive ? grad f: nw archive . postdoc a: yep { comment } and if you did that during the day it would never make it to the nightly back - ups . grad f: that 's what it is . professor d: ok . grad f: right . postdoc a: and then there would n't be this extra load . phd i: well , it if he you have to put the data on a on a non - backed - up disk to begin with . postdoc a: well , but you can have it nw archive to you can have , uh , a non - backed - up disk nw archived , grad f: right . phd i: so that so that otherwise you do n't you postdoc a: and it 'll never show up on the nightly back - ups . grad f: right . and then it never phd i: right . right . grad f: right . which i 'm sure would make ever the sysadmins very happy . phd i: right . postdoc a: yeah . grad f: so , i think that 's a good idea . phd i: ok . grad f: that 's what we should do . phd i: ok . grad f: so , that means we 'll probably wan na convert all all those files filesystems to non - backed - up media . phd b: that sounds good . professor d: yeah . grad f: yep . professor d: um , another , thing on the agenda said sri recognition experiments ? what 's that ? phd i: sri recognition ? oh . grad f: that was n't me . professor d: uh . phd i: um . well , professor d: who 's that ? phd i: we have lots of them . uh , i dunno . chuck , do you have any any updates ? phd b: n i 'm successfully , uh , increasing the error rate . uh grad f: that 's good . grad h: mmm . phd i: oh . phd g: lift the herve approach . phd b: yeah . so , i mean i 'm just playing with , um , the number of gaussians that we use in the the recognizer , and phd i: well , you have to sa you have to tell people that you 're you 're doing you 're trying the tandem features . phd b: yes , i 'm using tandem features . grad f: oh you are ? phd b: and grad f: cool . phd i: a and i 'm still tinkering with the plp features . grad f: professor d: yeah , i got confused by the results . it sai because uh , the meeting before , you said `` ok , we got it down to where they 're they 're within a tenth of a percent `` . phd b: that was on males . phd i: right . that was that was before i tried it on the females . professor d: oh . phd i: see , women are nothi are , trouble . professor d: it 's the women are the problem . ok . phd i: right ? as we all know . so . phd g: well , let 's just say that men are simple . phd i: so { comment } so , when so i i had i ha grad f: that was a quick response . phd i: so , we had reached the point where phd g: i 'm well rehearsed . professor d: yeah . phd i: we had reached the point where , { comment } um , on the male portion of the development set , the , um or one of the development sets , i should say the , um the male error rate with , uh , icsi plp features was pretty much identical with , uh , sri features . which are mfcc . so , um , then i thought , `` oh , great . i 'll j i 'll just let 's make sure everything works on the females . `` and the error rate you know , there was a three percent difference . professor d: oh . uh - huh . phd i: so , phd g: is there less training data ? phd i: uh phd g: i mean , we don phd i: no , actually there 's more training data . phd g: this is on just digits ? professor d: no . phd i: no , no . grad f: no . phd b: hub - five . grad f: it 's , uh , swi phd g: oh , sorry . ok . this is on phd i: this is hub - five . phd g: oh , ok . grad f: hub - five . yeah . phd i: yeah . um , and the test data is callhome and switchboard . so , uh so then um oh , and plus the the vocal tract length normalization did n't actually made things worse . so something 's really seriously wrong . so um professor d: aha ! ok . phd i: so so professor d: so but you see , now , between between the males and the females , there 's certainly a much bigger difference in the scaling range , than there is , say , just within the males . and what you were using before was scaling factors that were just from the the m the sri front - end . and that worked that worked fine . phd i: that 's true . yeah . professor d: uh , but now you 're looking over a larger range and it may not be so fine . phd i: well , um so i just d so the one thing that i then tried was to put in the low - pass filter , which we have in the so , most most hub - five systems actually band - limit the uh , at about , uh , thirty - seven hundred , um , hertz . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: although , you know , normally , i mean , the channel goes to four four thousand . right ? so , um and that actually helped , uh uh , a little bit . professor d: uh - huh . phd i: um and it did n't hurt on the males either . so , um and i 'm now , uh , trying the oh , and suddenly , also the v the vocal tract length normalization only in the test se on the test data . so , you can do vocal tract length normalization on the test data only or on both the training and the test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and you expect it to help a little bit if you do it only on the test , and s more if you do it on both training and test . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so the it now helps , if you do it only on the test , and i 'm currently retraining another set of models where it 's both in the training and the test , and then we 'll we 'll have , hopefully , even better results . so but there 's it looks like there will still be some difference , maybe between one and two percent , um , for the females . professor d: huh . phd i: and so , um , you know , i 'm open to suggestions . grad f: mm - hmm . phd i: and it is true that the , uh that the you know , we are using the but it ca n't be just the vtl , professor d: uh - huh . phd i: because if you do n't do vtl in both systems , uh , you know , the the females are considerably worse in the with the plp features . professor d: no no . i i remember that . grad f: it 's much worse . yeah . phd i: so there must be some something else going on . phd g: well , what 's the standard ? yeah , so i thought the performance was actually a little better on females than males . grad f: that 's what i thought , too . phd i: um , that ye { comment } overall , yes , but on this particular development test set , they 're actually a little worse . but that 's beside the point . we 're looking at the discrepancy between the sri system and the sri system when trained with icsi features . phd g: right . i 'm just wondering if that if if you have any indication of your standard features , grad f: what 's are the freq ? phd g: you know , if that 's also different or in the same direction or not . professor d: you 're this is lem me ask a q more basic que phd g: cuz professor d: i mean , is this , uh uh , iterative , baum - welch training ? phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: or is it viterbi training ? or ? phd i: it 's baum - welch training . professor d: baum - welch training . and how do you determine when to to stop iterating ? phd i: um well , actually , we we just basically do a s a fixed number of iterations . grad f: hmm . phd i: uh , in this case four . um , which eh , we used to do only three , and then we found out we can squeeze and it was basically , we 're s we 're keeping it on the safe side . but you 're d right . it might be that one more iteration would would help , but it 's sort of professor d: or maybe or maybe you 're doing one too many . phd i: you know . professor d: i mean it 's it 's phd i: no , but with baum - welch , there should n't be an over - fitting issue , really . professor d: uh . { comment } well , there can be . sure . grad f: well , you can try each one on a cross - validation set , phd i: um . professor d: it d if you if you remember some years ago bill byrne did a thing where he was he was looking at that , grad f: ca n't you ? professor d: and he showed that you could get it . phd i: yeah . professor d: so . but { comment } but but , um phd i: well , yeah . we can well , that 's that 's the easy one to check , professor d: yeah . phd i: because we save all the intermediate models grad f: do you ? phd i: and we can professor d: and in each case , ho grad f: what ? professor d: um , i 'm sorry in each case how do you determine , you know , the the usual fudge factors ? the , uh the , uh , language , uh , scaling , acoustic scaling , uh , uh phd i: um i uh { comment } i 'm actually re - optimizing them . although that has n't shown to make a big difference . professor d: ok . and the pru the question he was asking at one point about pruning , uh remember that one ? phd i: pruning ? professor d: well , he was he 's it looked like the probabil at one point he was looking at the probabilities he was getting out at the likelihoods he was getting out of plp versus mel cepstrum , and they looked pretty different , phd i: pruning in the ? phd b: yeah , the likelihoods were lower for the plp . professor d: as i recall . phd g: oh . professor d: and so , uh , there 's the question phd i: i you mean did you see this in the sri system ? phd b: mm - hmm . was just looking through the log files , phd i: um . well , the likelihoods are phd b: and phd i: you ca n't directly compare them , because , for every set of models you compute a new normalization . and so these log probabilities , they are n't directly comparable phd b: oh . phd i: because you have a different normalization constants for each model you train . phd b: hmm . professor d: but , still it 's a question phd i: so professor d: if you have some threshold somewhere in terms of beam search or something , phd b: well , yeah . that 's what i was wondering . professor d: or ? phd i: w yeah . i mean uh phd b: i mean , if you have one threshold that works well because the range of your likelihoods is in this area phd i: we prune very conservatively . i mean , as we saw with the meeting data , um we could probably tighten the pruning without really so we we basically we have a very open beam . professor d: but , you 're only talking about a percent or two . phd b: yeah . professor d: right ? here we 're - we 're saying that we there gee , there 's this b eh , there 's this difference here . and it see cuz , i i { comment } there could be lots of things . right ? but but but but , um , let 's suppose just for a second that , uh , we 've sort of taken out a lot of the the major differences , uh , between the two . phd i: right . course . mm - hmm . right . professor d: i mean , we 're already sort of using the mel scale and we 're using the same style filter integration , and and , well , we 're making sure that low and high phd i: actually , there is the difference in that . so , for the plp features we use the triangular filter shapes . and for the in the sri front - end we use the trapezoidal one . grad f: and what 's the top frequency of each ? phd i: well , now it 's the same . it 's thirty thirty to seven hundred and sixty hertz . grad f: yeah . exp - one 's triangular , one 's trapezoidal . so phd i: no , no . but professor d: before we i i th with straight plp , it 's trapezoidal also . phd i: well but professor d: but then we had a slight difference in the in the scale . uh , so . phd i: since currently the feacalc program does n't allow me to change the filter shape independently of the scale . grad f: uh - huh . phd i: and , i did the experiment on the sri front - end where i tried the y where the standard used to be to use trapezoidal filters . you can actually continuously vary it between the two . and so i wen i swi i tried the trap eh , triangular ones . and it did slightly worse , but it 's really a small difference . grad f: hmm . professor d: coup - couple tenths of a percent or something . phd i: so grad f: ok . professor d: right . grad f: so it 's not just losing some frequency range . phd i: yeah , exactly . so , it 's not i do n't think the filter shape by itself will make a huge { comment } difference . professor d: yeah . right . so the oth the other thing that grad f: yeah . professor d: so , f i we 've always viewed it , anyway , as the major difference between the two , is actually in the smoothing , that the that the , um , plp , and and the reason plp has been advantageous in , uh , slightly noisy situations is because , plp does the smoothing at the end by an auto - regressive model , phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor d: and mel cepstrum does it by just computing the lower cepstral coefficients . phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: um . so , um mm - hmm . phd i: ok . so one thing i have n't done yet is to actually do all of this with a much larger with our full training set . so right now , we 're using a i do n't know , forty ? i i it 's it 's eh { comment } it 's a f training set that 's about , um , you know , by a factor of four smaller than what we use when we train the full system . so , some of these smoothing issues are over - fitting for that matter . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and the baum - welch should be much less of a factor , if you go full whole hog . professor d: could be . yeah . phd i: and so , w so , just um so the strategy is to first sort of treat things with fast turn - around on a smaller training set and then , when you 've sort of , narrowed it down , you try it on a larger training set . professor d: yeah . phd i: and so , we have n't done that yet . professor d: now the other que related question , though , is is , uh , what 's the boot models for these things ? phd i: th - th the boot models are trained from scratch . so we compute , um so , we start with a , um , alil alignment that we computed with the b sort of the best system we have . and and then we train from scratch . so we com we do a , you know , w um we collect the uh , the observations from those alignments under each of the feature sets that that we train . and then , from there we do , um there 's a lot of , actually the way it works , you first train a phonetically - tied mixture model . um . you do a total of first you do a context - independent ptm model . then you switch to a context you do two iterations of that . then you do two iterations of of of context - dependent phonetically - tied mixtures . and then from that you you do the you you go to a state - clustered model , professor d: yeah . phd i: and you do four iterations of that . so there 's a lot of iterations overall between your original boot models and the final models . i do n't think that hmm . we have never seen big differences . once i thought `` oh , i can now i have these much better models . i 'll re - generate my initial alignments . then i 'll get much better models at the end . `` made no difference whatsoever . it 's i think it 's eh , i professor d: right . well , mis for making things better . phd i: the boot models are recur professor d: yeah . but , this for making things worse . this it migh th - the thought is is is possible another possible partial cause is if the boot models used a comple used a different feature set , that phd i: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . but there are no boot models , in fact . you you 're not booting from initial models . you 're booting from initial alignments . professor d: which you got from a different feature set . phd i: that 's correct . professor d: so , those features look at the data differently , actually . phd i: yeah , but professor d: i mean , you know , they they will find boundaries a little differently , though you know , all th all that sort of thing is actually slightly different . i 'd expect it to be a minor effect , phd i: but but but , what i 'm what i 'm saying is professor d: but phd i: so , we e w f w for a long time we had used boot alignments that had been trained with a with the same front - end but with acoustic models that were , like , fifteen percent worse than what we use now . professor d: mm - hmm . phd i: and with a dict different dictionary with a considerably different dictionary , which was much less detailed and much less well - suited . professor d: mm - hmm . yeah . phd i: and so , then we switched to new boot alignments , which which now had the benefit of all these improvements that we 've made over two years in the system . professor d: right . phd i: and , the result in the end was no different . professor d: right . phd i: so , what i 'm saying is , the exact nature of these boot alignments is probably not a big factor in the quality of the final models . professor d: yeah , maybe not . but it it i st still see it as i mean , there 's there 's a history to this , too , phd i: yeah . professor d: but i uh , i do n't wan na go into , phd i: mm - hmm . professor d: but but i i i th i think it could be the things that it the data is being viewed in a certain way , uh , that a beginning is here rather than there and so forth , phd i: yeah . right . professor d: because the actual signal - processing you 're doing is slightly different . phd i: right . professor d: but , it 's it 's that 's probably not it . phd i: yeah . anyway , i i i should really reserve , uh , any conclusions until we 've done it on the large training set , um , and until we 've seen the results with the with the vtl in training . professor d: yeah . at some point you also might wan na take the same thing and try it on , uh , some broadcast news data or something else that actually has has some noisy noisy components , so we can see if any conclusions we come to holds across different data . phd i: so . yeah . right . professor d: uh phd i: and , uh , with this , i have to leave . professor d: ok . grad h: hmm ! professor d: so , is there something quick about absinthe that you ? phd i: with this said . grad f: uh . just what we were talking about before , which is that i ported a blass library to absinthe , and then got got it working with fast - forward , and got a speedup roughly proportional to the number of processors times the clock cycle . phd i: oh . grad f: so , that 's pretty good . phd i: oh ! cool . grad f: um , i 'm in the process of doing it for quicknet , but there 's something going wrong and it 's about half the speed that i was estimating it should be , and i 'm not sure why . phd i: mm - hmm . grad f: but i 'll keep working on it . but the what it means is that it 's likely that for net training and forward passes , we 'll absinthe will be a good machine . especially if we get a few more processors and upgrade the processors . phd i: a few more processors ? how many are you shooting for ? grad f: there 're five now . it can hold eight . phd i: oh , ok . professor d: yeah , we 'll just go buy them , i guess . grad f: and it 's also five - fifty megahertz and you can get a gigahertz . phd i: yeah . grad f: so . phd i: can you mix t uh , processors of different speed ? grad f: i do n't think so . i think we 'd have to do all phd i: ok . professor d: probably just throw away the old ones , and grad f: yep . professor d: thank you for the box , phd i: oh , ok . professor d: and i 'll just go buy their process . grad h: hmm ! phd i: maybe we can stick them in another system . i dunno . grad f: we 'd have to get a almost certainly have to get a , uh , netfinity server . phd i: i see . grad f: they 're pretty pretty specialized . professor d: yeah . ok . phd i: ok . professor d: is is liz coming back , do you know , or ? i dunno . yeah . oh , you do n't . ok . alright . alright . see you . um . alright . so uh , they 're having tea out there . so i guess the other thing that we were gon na talk about is is , uh , demo . and , um , so , these are the demos for the uh , july , uh , meeting and , um darpa mee grad f: july what ? early july ? late july ? professor d: oh , i think it 's july fifteenth . postdoc a: sixteen to eighteen , i think . professor d: is that it ? postdoc a: roughly . professor d: yeah , sixteenth , eighteenth . yeah . so , we talked about getting something together for that , but maybe , uh maybe we 'll just put that off for now , given that but i think maybe we should have a a sub - meeting , i think , uh , probably , uh , adam and and , uh , chuck and me should talk about should get together and talk about that sometime soon . grad f: over a cappuccino tomorrow ? professor d: yeah { comment } something like that . um , uh , you know , maybe maybe we 'll involve dan ellis at some some level as well . grad f: mm - hmm . professor d: um . ok . the the tea is is going , so , uh , i suggest we do , uh uh , a unison . grad f: a unison digits ? postdoc a: ok . professor d: yeah . gets our grad f: which is gon na be a little hard for a couple people because we have different digits forms . phd e: oops . grad f: we have a i found a couple of old ones . professor d: oh . grad h: hmm . professor d: well , that 'll be interesting . so , uh grad f: have you done digits before ? professor d: no . grad c: i have n't done it . grad f: ok . so , uh , the idea is just to read each line with a short pause between lines , grad c: alright . grad f: not between and , uh , since we 're in a hurry , we were just gon na read everyone all at once . so , if you sorta plug your ears and read grad c: ok . grad f: so first read the transcript number , and then start reading the digits . grad c: sure . grad f: ok ? one , two , three . professor d: ok we 're done . grad f: and { disfmarker }

phd i suggested putting the data on a cd-rom but was informed that the data gets lost in a few years . phd f expressed that it was generally a bad idea to have a copy on a medium that failed . professionally pressed discs last longer , but they would be burning them in-house . the idea of re-burning the cd 's each year was also not adopted .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

this meeting focused on the conception of the functional design of the new remote control . industrial designer evaluated several components in the technical design of the product and gave his personal preferences , especially on the chip and the material to use in the construction . then user interface presented a general layout of the functionality , the design of which should follow two principles : simpleness and customizability . marketing , in his turn , explained the current market trend based on the results of his questionnaires on user requirements . the group also discussed where the remote control would be manufactured by taking into account the price of the local labour force .

what did the group discuss about the component design of the remote control ? </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

the group came to an agreement regarding a wooden case with rubber buttons and also determined on using the advanced chip on print which could integrate a sensor and a speaker . they also decided to install a microphone in the device so that the remote control could make sounds when it got lost . the group discussed over cost-efficiency of a display , whose adoption still remained to be decided .

what did the group think of using wood as manufacture material in the components design of the product ? </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

the group showed approval regarding the concept of a wooden case , because industrial designer , during his presentation , evaluated different materials on the basis of manufacturing input as well as the conceptual features of the product . after eliminating rubber , plastic and titanium , the only option left was wood . not only is it environmental-friendly , but the users could also have their customized curving on the case . but industrial designer suggested that the buttons should be made out of rubber .

what did the group decide to do about the display when discussing components design of the remote control ? </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

user interface proposed to reconsider the necessity of adopting a display in consideration of two factors . one was that the television screen already made a big display , the other was that the cost-efficiency of a display was doubtful . in view of the cost constraint , sacrificing the display feature could be a reasonable option . project manager then asked marketing to conduct research on this subject before making the final decision about the adoption of the display .

summarize the discussion about the general functionalities of the new product . </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

user interface presented a general layout of remote control functionalities . the ergonomic shape of the remote control could raise product customizability . user interface proposed to incorporate a flip screen and to add a lcd light to show battery life . user interface also gave suggestions on possible positioning of the key pad . to summarize , user interface preferred the design to be simple and clear .

what did user interface suggest about invisible features when discussing general functionalities of the remote control ? </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

user interface proposed that buttons , when pressed , gave audio or tactile feedback so that users were aware that the device understood his message . for instance , speech recognition could be an option . besides , voice control should be able to be turned off so that the remote control would n't accidentally send instructions to televisions .

what did the group discuss about flip screens in terms of general functionalities of the new product ? </s> project manager: uh welcome back after lunch , i hope uh you had a good lunch together . for uh this meeting the main agenda okay uh to discuss about the conceptual design meeting . okay and the agenda will be the opening and uh that 's uh the product manager or secretary that 's me and uh the presentations from the christine and uh agnes and from mister ed . and finally in this meeting we have to decide marketing: project manager: and we are to take a decision on the remote control concept and uh the functional design so we have forty minutes , i think it 's uh little bit uh low , but i i hope we can finish it up so i 'll handle to the the functional team , to the christine , okay , to discuss about uh the components concept . industrial designer: okay . so uh , if you could open the powerpoint presentation . marketing: industrial designer: i 'm number two . project manager: you 're number two . 'kay industrial designer: components design , there we go . marketing: industrial designer: so uh can we put it in slide show mode ? yeah . project manager: the next one . industrial designer: right here , is that little that one , yes please . marketing: industrial designer: thank you . project manager: industrial designer: i 'll take the mouse . so uh project manager: industrial designer: we were looking he specifically at the components uh the following components , uh the case , the power supply , uh the means of communications with the television set . in instance we had talked about using some sort of speech recognition , project manager: industrial designer: you have to have microphone well no you do n't actually i have n't have to have microphone in the device , but um maybe you do have it a a way marketing: industrial designer: it has to it has to hear the speaker user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and um , so it could be in the television set , could be in the device , but somewhere you have to put the microphone , um and a w a way of making beeps or sounds so you can find it when it 's gets lost . um so the other w thing that we so . our method for going about this is we 've looked at uh the histo hi historical record , what 's worked , what has n't and then we also um we wanted to evaluate some new materials marketing: industrial designer: and we contacted manufacturing for their input because , course , we m might come up and choose the material that then manufacturing did n't have the technologies or capabilities to offer us , so uh this is the approach that we took during our um our research . marketing: industrial designer: so um for the case , um we told we were making a specifica specific assumption that it would be curved in design . marketing: industrial designer: course , you know , i wanted it to be expandable and shrinkable , but um that uh does n't seem to b be one of the choic non-option we can uh we can really seriously explore , user interface: industrial designer: so then we were thinking about um rubber , but um unfortunately that 's been eliminated because of the heat uh factor user interface: industrial designer: and th um there might be some problems with the m uh how it 's uh goes with the board . uh and uh then th plastic also has this problem of melting and it 's brittle it gets brittle after a while , user interface: industrial designer: so um we still had titanium and and wood available , but um unfortunately uh uh titanium 's also been eliminated uh , user interface: industrial designer: the m people in manufacturing said that you could n't make d curved cases out of titanium , although how apple did it with th powerbook i 'm not su quite sure but uh nevertheless um they 've eliminated all of our options except wood . user interface: at least it 's environmentally friendly . industrial designer: so , this is our finding . marketing: industrial designer: and a as she said , it 's an environmentally friendly uh material , so we 're we 're currently uh proposing , marketing: industrial designer: uh we 'll get to all my personal preferences in just a second . marketing: industrial designer: so then there 's this other matter of the chips and um well we could use a simple design on the board , user interface: project manager: industrial designer: uh these simple chips , but that 's only works for the bu you do n't get very much um intelligence with this simple one . and um then there was the regular which i regret that i 've forgotten exactly why i 'm eliminating that one . uh the other option was this advanced chip on print , and uh we liked th we we found that it it includes this infrared sender , marketing: industrial designer: which w 'member the beam was that was an important component of finding the right chip . marketing: industrial designer: and uh manufacturing has told us that they 've um uh recently developed a uh a sensor and a speaker that would uh be integrated into this advanced chip on print , so uh we we uh now jumping right to our personal preferences um i i 'd really think we should , you know , use some of uh some really exotic woods , like um , user interface: industrial designer: you know uh , well you guys come from tropical countries so you can kinda think of some trees and some nice woods . i think that people will might really want to design their own cases , you see , they could do sort of a this um three-dimensional design on the internet , and then they could submit their orders , kinda like you submit a custom car order , you know , and you can choose the colour and the size of the wheels and the colours of the leather and things like that , and then i uh think we should go with the solar cells as well as the um microphone and speaker on the advanced chip . so this is the findings of our research marketing: industrial designer: and my recommendations um for the new remote control w um would be to have um have it be made out of wood . do you have any problems with that ? project manager: can you go back uh one slide ? industrial designer: i 'm not sure , how do i oh , i know , let 's see . user interface: thank you . yeah . industrial designer: let 's go back up here . project manager: yes , uh question , uh , what 's mean exactly , advanced chip on print ? what 's the meaning of that ? industrial designer: i think it 's um um a multiple uh chip design um and it 's uh maybe printed on to the circuit board . user interface: project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: industrial designer: uh i could find out more about that uh before the next fi next meeting . project manager: yeah , is it means it 's on the yeah is it on a micro-proc micro-processor based or uh industrial designer: i do n't know , but i 'll find out more at our next meeting . project manager: okay , tha that would be great , so if you find out from the technology background , okay , so that would be good . marketing: industrial designer: sounds good . user interface: why was the plastic eliminated as a possible material ? industrial designer: because um it gets brittle , cracks user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: um we want we expect these um uh these remote controls to be around for several hundred years . so . good ex good expression . user interface: whic marketing: wow , user interface: which marketing: good expression . well after us . user interface: industrial designer: i do n't know , speak for yourself , i 'm planning to be around for a while . user interface: although i think marketing: user interface: i think with wood though you 'd run into the same types of problems , would n't you , i mean it chips , it if you drop it , industrial designer: marketing: user interface: uh it 's i 'm not su industrial designer: project manager: so so you 're not convinced about the the wood , yes . user interface: industrial designer: you 're what ? marketing: actually , i 'm ready to sell it . user interface: i think if you re if you use really good quality wood , then it might work , marketing: i 'm ready to sell it . industrial designer: you think ? and you could you could sell oils with it , to take care of it . user interface: but you ca n't just use marketing: no y no no no , the o the only w the only wood you can use are the ones that are hard , extremely hard wood , user interface: yeah , exactly , yeah . marketing: but there are some very pretty woods out there . industrial designer: well i 'm glad you user interface: marketing: that 's actually very innovative idea . industrial designer: okay , good . user interface: industrial designer: sorr having a hard time keeping wi control over my face . marketing: industrial designer: marketing: well , it 's actually a very innovative n different idea that uh you know you can choose your colour of wood , your type of wood . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the stain . marketing: i mean it 's each person is gon na have their own personalised , individualised speech recognition remote control in wood , that 's not on the market . industrial designer: mm . user interface: project manager: yeah , so it it 's looks good the the design the functional design uh , what about yo you ? marketing: user interface: um , in terms of comments on this or in terms of my own project manager: yes , in t yes , in term in terms of comments first marketing: in turns of wow . industrial designer: user interface: industrial designer: she works in the cubicle next to me so she 's uh she was already a little bit prepared for this . user interface: y yeah . marketing: industrial designer: luckily ed was not . user interface: marketing: wood ? user interface: i think we can get the quality materials then it should n't influence the design principles too much , which you 'll see with my presentation . marketing: user interface: one thing we 'd have to check though is what the users whether how quickly the novelty wears off of having uh industrial designer: mm-hmm . yeah , you would n't wan na have to have splinters in your hand while you 're using your user interface: yeah , for example . so , have to see how kid-friendly it is and and all that , marketing: industrial designer: it 's really good if your dog gets ahold of it , they can use it for teething . user interface: but marketing: user interface: marketing: they do that anyway with the rubber and plastic , industrial designer: yeah , they do it with other materials as well , yeah . marketing: so , and chew 'em up . and chew 'em up . project manager: okay then , uh , let 's move to agnes . user interface: sure . industrial designer: oh , i 'm sorry . project manager: s you 're user interface: project manager: you are in participant three . user interface: one point three , yeah marketing: user interface: uh , yeah . project manager: this one ? user interface: i think so , yeah . yeah , that 's the one . so , it 's a very short presentation , 'cause i 'm actually gon na draw you the layout on the board so if you want to just go straight to the second slide , um , which basically shows , sort of marketing: user interface: i took the ideas that we were talking about last time um and tried to put that into the remote control so the things that y you can actually see on it are the on off switch , volume and channel control , the menu access button , ergonomic shape , which i completely agree with christine 's idea to have it sort of molded , so it 's slightly more ergonomic and comfortable to hold than the r standard very straight remote controls . and actually the other thing with the wood if we take your customising idea , is that people can actually do sort of quasi-measurements on their hand size , so if someone has larger hands , you have a wider remote control . industrial designer: right , my hand is uh different size than yours for example . user interface: so , that 's actually a really good idea for customi customisability . um , one thing i thought might be kind of interesting is to put a flip screen on it , just like you have on flip phones , marketing: user interface: so that you do n't have this case where someone sits on the remote control or accidentally puts their hand on it , especially if you have little kids around , they 're not pressing the buttons while you 're trying to watch a tv show and accidentally change the channel or turn it off . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: and also um you had issues with the batteries running out , marketing: user interface: so i thought maybe we could put a little battery life-light on it that kind of goes dimmer and dimmer and dimmer as your battery is starts to die . and in terms of invisible features , audio and um tactile feedback on button presses and , like you said , speech recognition . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so , in terms of what this thing would actually look like marketing: user interface: despite working in interface design , i 'm not the greatest artist in the world , so you 'll have to forgive me . you 'd have something like this with an on-off switch fairly big , sort of in the corner and by itself , so you do n't accidentally turn your tv off while you 're trying to manoeuvre other buttons . and then you have sort of one of those toggle displays for , oops , channels and volume , sort of for surfing channels and then volume , so the volume would be the up and down , 'cause volume goes up and down and then channels left to right . and then here you 'd have your sort of standard , telephonish number pad . and then on one side you would have an access to the menu on your tv project manager: user interface: and on the other side a way to turn off the voice control . so that if the user does n't want to use their voice , they can just turn it off and you do n't have the remote control accidentally changing things on you . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: um , so again you can have a little lcd light somewhere , the flip thing and have i forgotten anything ? i do n't think so . so , as you can see , it 's a very very simple design , marketing: no . project manager: user interface: which is one of the things i really wanted to keep , is keep it simple , not have too many buttons , not have too many functionalities thrown into it . think the design can pretty much carry over to everything , although with the wood the flip screen might have to do something slightly different . project manager: industrial designer: a hinge . be like a copper hinge or you know . project manager: user interface: yeah . but you also have to d start watching out for the weight , 'cause depending on how much the the flip screen will add to the weight of the remote control , you do n't want it to start getting too heavy . industrial designer: mm-hmm . mm . user interface: but that 's the general layout with the general functionalities , if we come up with something else . as you can see , there 's still lots of space on the actual remote control and if you do it customisably , you can make this thing fairly small or fairly o large , depending on personal preferences . industrial designer: mm-hmm , mm-hmm . marketing: hmm . user interface: so , that 's pretty much all i had to say , i mean , everything else in terms of design issues . um the centering of the key pad and the channel is just depending on where your thumb is and you tend to use the the volume control and uh the browsing more than the actual number pad , so that would be sort of in direct line of where your thumb goes when you are holding the remote control , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: the number pad a little bit lower 'cause it 's used less frequently . industrial designer: mm . mm-hmm . user interface: so once we decide exactly what we want , then we can figure out the exact positioning , but more or less i think it should go along those lines . project manager: so what 's your , uh , the comments or uh s marketing: simple design . it 's what consumers want . project manager: okay marketing: it 's almost like , houston , we have a product here . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: problem is obviously gon na be cost . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: okay , i also have a f very simple presentation , project manager: mm-hmm . marketing: because for the marketing point you have to see what the consumers want . project manager: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: i also have uh copied a different type of remote . if you can find me , where i 'm at . there should only be one in here . trend watch . industrial designer: sure . marketing: it 's being modified . user interface: marketing: they 're stealing our product . we 've been giving simple questionnaires in different areas because th obviously we have to see what the com consumers are looking for today , 'cause uh trends change very very quickly . in six months maybe this idea is already gone out the window , so it 's gon na be a question how fast we can act . uh they already erased the rest of mine , huh . industrial designer: no , user interface: no , no . industrial designer: f go to findings . project manager: marketing: no no , no no . 'cause i had another comment there . uh the market trend . this is what we know from the last uh from the questionnaires from the the all the p surveys we 've done , fancy and feel-good , that 's what we 've been looking for , something that feels good in the hand , that 's easy to use . looking for next generation of innovation , because all the remotes out there now , they 're all very similar , they all do the same thing , project manager: industrial designer: marketing: we have to have something completely different . okay ? easy to use , has always has become has become another major interest that uh , with the whiteboard we can see that it 's a remote that 's easy to use . and i think this is another thing that 's interesting is the consumers actually willing to pay the price for exciting tel technology . so even if we have a product that may be more expensive , if it comes out right , if they look it looks and feels good and has technology . the second two , you can see the last one is a very easy simple design . the second one , there is about uh forty-five thousand different buttons on it , which makes it fairly hard to read , uh very hard to use . industrial designer: user interface: marketing: the first one , i see that they put in a display . now there 's something else uh with the little flip-up , now we 're adding all kinds of things in , user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: but with the little flip-up , if you have a little display on the flip-up that when you close it everything is locked . user interface: yeah . marketing: maybe the display also makes it easier to use , because sometimes when you 're looking for buttons , maybe if you see a display user interface: industrial designer: context-sensitive instructions , depending on what the tel what mode the tv or the d_v_d_ or something else is in . user interface: right . marketing: okay because i 've seen mostly the standard ones , user interface: especially you might need something like that for training the speech recognition and marketing: yeah . now you have it now you have one with the very simple also . the idea is simple , but with a display , so you can see what you 're doing . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: so maybe if we can incorporate the easiness of use , trendy , fancy , feels good , uh with a display , wood , designer wood , designer colours user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: user interface: project manager: industrial designer: you know , maybe what you could do is when somebody orders the device id you could send them like um a uh uh b some sort of a foam rubber um ball , marketing: , we might 've user interface: oh yeah . industrial designer: and then they would squeeze it , and it would take the shape of their hand . user interface: yeah , so it 's really molded to to your specific industrial designer: to t an and then you would know like um what the geometry of their hands would be and uh marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: marketing: how hard they squeeze ? user interface: industrial designer: yes you 'd know what kind of wood to get . marketing: resistance resistance , right . user interface: but th for that you 'd also have to do sort of an average across families and things like that if unless everyone has their own personal remote . industrial designer: that 's right , that 's right , you would n't wan na go too far down that . oh that that actually would uh increase the um the revenues we could expect , yeah . user interface: the sales , yeah . project manager: the yeah . i hope so . user interface: industrial designer: marketing: no , but incorporating the three uh obviously it 'd be something totally new on the market , totally different user interface: yeah . industrial designer: marketing: and from user interface: well , already the customisability is a really good sort of new gimmick . marketing: although , what it was it uh it was uh nokia that came out with this changeable colours . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: right , you take it apart , and put on another face , take it off and put on another face user interface: yeah . industrial designer: right , mm . user interface: and that took off , yeah , yeah . marketing: and then they sold millions , millions . so . so say with the f with the findings , with the research , easy to use something totally new . user interface: mm-hmm . marketing: we have to come up with something totally new that is not on the market . industrial designer: we 'd also have to wor um consider that uh who we were gon na get to make these custom cases in terms of manufacturing processes , we might wan na um learn about um labour laws . project manager: industrial designer: you know in different countries and stuff wher so we can do it cheap , but you do n't wan na exploit uh labour in um third world countries . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: so actually you could turn it y turn around and say that you 're uh par the reason the cost is high for the device is because um you 're paying a a working wage to the person who made the device . project manager: marketing: user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah , but we can get a production in , uh , countries like , uh , india industrial designer: cost of living is low . project manager: yes , yes , countries like india or china or malaysia , so you can go a better features and better price and you can sell more . so industrial designer: good , well th that 'd be something that manufacturing would have to um explore more project manager: yeah , yeah , so yes . user interface: mm yeah . industrial designer: and to where marketing: where w where it would be manufactured is is another step . project manager: so yeah , so industrial designer: yeah marketing: we 're here to design , come up with a nice product . project manager: yes uh , but uh that that we can that we can talk about the production later , okay , depends on the the quantity , okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we do n't need to have our own uh fabric factory or something , industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so we can have a tie-up with who the do the fabric , okay , for the different uh electronics items , then we can have a business tie-up and to get to cut the cost , okay , to sell more . so , but uh le let 's decide first about the components concept and uh interface concept , okay , if is acceptable for both of you , what uh ed was talking . and your design whether you want with the display or without display or just a simple , so user interface: mm-hmm . i think it depends , i mean i think it 's a good idea , but we need to really think about how useful it 's gon na be because theoretically with the tv you already have a big display right in front of you . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: so , if we 're trying to keep costs down , then maybe sacrificing the display is a way to go . industrial designer: hmm . user interface: i mean it depends on how much putting a display costs and what it would be used for industrial designer: hmm . user interface: very specifically what it would be used for , industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: 'cause if it 's only used for one little thing , then putting in a big display case or a big display that 's probably expensive just to do the training on the chip for the speech recognition or whatever , may not be the most cost-efficient way to go , project manager: user interface: but that 's just sort of speculation , i mean . industrial designer: what do you think ed ? do you he liked the display in one of the concepts that you showed , um , do you know how much it costs , um , to to add a little display like this uh ? marketing: no . no industrial designer: do you wan na take an action item to go find out ? marketing: no p spec it 's 'cause we have to find out cost on it . industrial designer: okay . sorry about that . marketing: um , no that 's no problem . i 'm here for the pushing it after it 's made . project manager: yes . marketing: i will market it . industrial designer: marketing: once we get a price on it then we can market it . industrial designer: so the the advanced chip on print is what um what we 've we 've deci we 've determined marketing: industrial designer: and the uh engineering industrial design is the recommendation , and um i think we 've kinda come to some agreement regarding um this concept of a wooden case . project manager: user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: a customisable and marketing: nice beautiful mahogany red wooden case . user interface: what about the buttons , would would the buttons be wood too , or industrial designer: uh i do n't think so , no , project manager: i do n't think so . industrial designer: i think they could be rubber like they are now , project manager: yes . yes . industrial designer: so you have that tactile experience of project manager: do n't looks nice uh . yeah , so uh what we 'll do is , uh , we will stick with the the simple design for time being until uh th ed find outs about the how much it 's cost to the extra , in case we go for the display . okay . so user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: maybe what you can do is uh , both of you , you can come up with the the prototype , okay , the model . user interface: okay . project manager: okay ? user interface: sure . project manager: user interface: industrial designer: so um are we done with this meeting ? project manager: yeah , i hope , if is it okay if uh they will come up with the prototype design , okay . then they can show you how it looks like , and then we can uh submit to the i will submit to the management . okay ? then meantime you can come up with the price , how much it 's cost as extra for uh the display . industrial designer: project manager: an and the marketing strategy , that 's very important , okay . industrial designer: and a marketing strategy . marketing: and marketing strategy , thank you . user interface: industrial designer: project manager: yes . how much you can marketing: fired . project manager: how mu how much how much you can sell extra . user interface: project manager: of course you 'll make money too , industrial designer: project manager: so it it 's not only pay-out , you make money too , your commission . user interface: marketing: user interface: marketing: project manager: okay , so , any questions ? user interface: no . project manager: so , by next meeting , so , please come up with the the prototype , okay , then uh , then we can proceed from there . user interface: okay . project manager: it 's okay ? user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so thanks for all your uh efforts and coming for the meeting again , and see you soon then . okay ? user interface: okay . project manager: thank you .

user interface suggested adding a flip screen on the remote control in order to prevent users from accidentally pressing buttons and bring unwilling results , especially for families with children . given that the products were to be made out of wood , industrial designer proposed to use a copper hinge . but user interface disagreed by pointing out that this might increase the weight of the product .

what were the topics talked about in the meeting ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

the group discussed efforts to train and test the aurora group 's htk-based recognition system on icsi 's digits corpus . members also discussed efforts to produce forced alignments from a selection of meeting recorder data . performance in both tasks was adversely affected by the manner of recording conditions implemented and difficulties attributing utterances to the appropriate speakers . while debugging efforts resulted in improved forced alignments , dealing with mixed channel speech and speaker overlap remains a key objective for future work . the group is additionally focused on a continued ability to feed different features into the recognizer and then train the system accordingly .

what did the group agree on training and testing the digits corpus ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

for comparing meeting recorder digits results , it was decided that the aurora htk-based system should be tested on data from the ti digits corpus

what changes did the group say were needed ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

the script for extracting speaker id information will require modifications to obtain a more accurate estimation of the amount of data recorded per speaker .

what would future experiments entail ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

subsequent recognition experiments will look at large vocabulary speech from a far-field microphone ( as performed in switchboard evaluations ) .

what was the current technique and its limitations ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

current speech alignment techniques assume that foreground speech must be continuous and , barring some isolated words and backchannels , can not cope with overlapping background speech . performing adaptations on both the foreground and background speaker produced a new variety of misalignments , a problem resulting , in part , from the fact that background speakers often match better to foreground conditions .

what were the problems for transcribers ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

transcribers occasionally misidentified speakers and omitted backchannels that were more hidden in the mixed signal .

what did phd a say about overlaps ? </s> grad e: ok , we 're on . professor b: ok . grad e: so , i mean , everyone who 's on the wireless check that they 're on . phd f: c we grad g: alright . postdoc c: i see . yeah . phd f: yeah . grad e: ok , our agenda was quite short . professor b: oh , could you close the door , maybe ? yeah . grad e: sure . two items , which was , uh , digits and possibly stuff on on , uh , forced alignment , which jane said that liz and andreas had in information on , professor b: grad e: but they did n't , phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i guess the only other thing , uh , for which i grad e: so . phd f: we should do that second , because liz might join us in time for that . grad e: ok . professor b: um . ok , so there 's digits , alignments , and , um , i guess the other thing , which i came unprepared for , uh , is , uh , to dis s s see if there 's anything anybody wants to discuss about the saturday meeting . grad e: right . professor b: so . any i mean , maybe not . grad e: digits and alignments . but professor b: uh . phd f: talk about aligning people 's schedules . professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . postdoc c: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i mean right . yeah , i mean , it was grad e: yeah , it 's forced alignment of people 's schedules . phd f: yeah . phd d: forced align . phd f: if we 're very professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: with with whatever it was , a month and a half or something ahead of time , the only time we could find in common roughly in common , was on a saturday . phd d: yeah . professor b: ugh . grad e: yep . phd f: it 's pretty sad . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . postdoc c: have have we thought about having a conference call to include him in more of in more of the meeting ? i i mean , i do n't know , if we had the if we had the telephone on the table professor b: no . but , h i mean , he probably has to go do something . phd f: no , actually i i have to i have to shuttle kids from various places to various other places . professor b: right ? postdoc c: i see . ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: so . and i do n't have and i do n't , um , have a cell phone phd d: a cell phone ? phd f: so i ca n't be having a conference call while driving . professor b: r r right . postdoc c: no . { comment } it 's not good . professor b: so we have to we postdoc c: that 's not good . phd f: plus , it would make for interesting noise background noise . professor b: grad e: yep . phd f: uh professor b: so we have to equip him with a with a with a head - mounted , uh , cell phone grad e: ye - we and we 'd have to force you to read lots and lots of digits , professor b: and grad e: so it could get real real car noise . phd f: oh , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: oh , yeah . grad g: take advantage . phd d: and with the kids in the background . phd f: i 'll let i 'd let phd d: yeah . phd f: i let , uh , my five - year - old have a try at the digits , eh . professor b: yeah . grad e: so , anyway , i can talk about digits . um , did everyone get the results or shall i go over them again ? i mean that it was basically the only thing that was even slightly surprising was that the lapel did so well . um , and in retrospect that 's not as surprising as maybe i it should n't have been as surprising as i as as i felt it was . the lapel mike is a very high - quality microphone . and as morgan pointed out , that there are actually some advantages to it in terms of breath noises and clothes rustling if no one else is talking . phd d: yeah . phd f: exactly . grad e: um , so , uh grad g: mm - hmm . professor b: well , it 's yeah , sort of the bre the breath noises and the mouth clicks and so forth like that , the lapel 's gon na be better on . grad g: it 's g it phd d: or the cross - talk . yeah . professor b: the lapel is typically worse on the on clothes rustling , but if no one 's rustling their clothes , grad e: right . i mean , a lot of people are just sort of leaning over and reading the digits , professor b: it 's it 's grad e: so it 's it 's a very different task than sort of the natural . phd d: yeah . you do n't move much during reading digits , i think . professor b: yeah . grad e: so . professor b: yeah . grad e: right . grad g: probably the fact that it picks up other people 's speakers other people 's talking is an indication of that it the fact it is a good microphone . phd d: yeah . professor b: right . so in the digits , in most most cases , there were n't other people talking . grad e: right . right . grad g: so . professor b: so . phd f: d do the lapel mikes have any directionality to them ? professor b: there typically do n't , no . phd f: because i i suppose you could make some that have sort of that you have to orient towards your mouth , grad e: they have a little bit , phd f: and then it would grad e: but they 're not noise - cancelling . so , uh professor b: they 're they 're intended to be omni - directional . grad e: right . professor b: and th it 's and because you do n't know how people are gon na put them on , you know . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: right . so , also , andreas , on that one the the back part of it should be right against your head . and that will he keep it from flopping aro up and down as much . phd f: it is against my head . grad e: ok . professor b: yeah . um . yeah , we actually talked about this in the , uh , front - end meeting this morning , too . much the same thing , grad e: uh - huh . professor b: and and it was uh , i mean , there the point of interest to the group was primarily that , um , the , uh the system that we had that was based on h t k , that 's used by , you know , all the participants in aurora , was so much worse than the than the s r grad e: everybody . professor b: and the interesting thing is that even though , yes , it 's a digits task and that 's a relatively small number of words and there 's a bunch of digits that you train on , it 's just not as good as having a a l very large amount of data and training up a a a nice good big hmm . um , also you had the adaptation in the sri system , which we did n't have in this . um . so . um . phd f: and we know di - did i send you some results without adaptation ? grad e: no . professor b: i s i think stephane , uh , had seen them . grad e: or if you did , i did n't include them , cuz it was professor b: so phd f: yeah , i think i did , actually . so there was a significant loss from not doing the adaptation . professor b: yeah . phd f: um . a a a couple percent or some i mean well , i do n't know it overall uh , i i do n't remember , but there was there was a significant , um , loss or win { comment } from adaptation with with adaptation . and , um , that was the phone - loop adaptation . and then there was a very small like point one percent on the natives uh , win from doing , um , you know , adaptation to the recognition hypotheses . and i tried both means adaptation and means and variances , and the variances added another or subtracted another point one percent . so , it 's , um that 's the number there . point six , i believe , is what you get with both , uh , means and variance adaptation . grad e: right . professor b: but i think one thing is that , uh , i would presume hav - have you ever t have you ever tried this exact same recognizer out on the actual ti - digits test set ? phd f: this exact same recognizer ? no . professor b: it might be interesting to do that . cuz my my cuz my sense , um phd f: but but , i have i mean , people people at sri are actually working on digits . grad e: i bet it would do even slightly better . phd f: i could and they are using a system that 's , um you know , h is actually trained on digits , um , but h h otherwise uses the same , you know , decoder , the same , uh , training methods , and so forth , professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and i could ask them what they get on ti - digits . professor b: yeah , bu although i 'd be i think it 'd be interesting to just take this exact actual system so that these numbers were comparable phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and try it out on ti - digits . phd f: well , adam knows how to run it , professor b: yeah . grad e: yeah . no problem . phd f: so you just make a f professor b: yeah . yeah . cuz our sense from the other from the aurora , uh , task is that grad e: and try it with ti - digits ? phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , cuz we were getting sub one percent numbers on ti - digits also with the tandem thing . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , one so there were a number of things we noted from this . phd f: mmm . professor b: one is , yeah , the sri system is a lot better than the htk phd f: hmm . professor b: this , you know , very limited training htk system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh , but the other is that , um , the digits recorded here in this room with these close mikes , i uh , are actually a lot harder than the studio - recording ti - digits . i think , you know , one reason for that , uh , might be that there 's still even though it 's close - talking , there still is some noise and some room acoustics . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: and another might be that , uh , i 'd i would presume that in the studio , uh , uh , situation recording read speech that if somebody did something a little funny or n pronounced something a little funny or made a little that they did n't include it , grad e: they did n't include it . professor b: they made them do it again . grad e: whereas , i took out the ones that i noticed that were blatant that were correctable . professor b: mmm . yeah . grad e: so that , if someone just read the wrong digit , i corrected it . professor b: yeah . grad e: and then there was another one where jose could n't tell whether i could n't tell whether he was saying zero or six . and i asked him and he could n't tell either . grad i: hmm . grad e: so i just cut it out . professor b: yeah . grad e: you know , so i just e edited out the first , i uh , word of the utterance . um , so there 's a little bit of correction but it 's definitely not as clean as ti - digits . so my expectations is ti - digits would , especially i think ti - digits is all american english . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: right ? so it would probably do even a little better still on the sri system , but we could give it a try . phd f: well . but remember , we 're using a telephone bandwidth front - end here , uh , on this , uh on this sri system , so , um , i was i thought that maybe that 's actually a good thing because it it gets rid of some of the uh , the noises , um , you know , in the the below and above the um , the , you know , speech bandwidth professor b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . phd f: and , um , i suspect that to get sort of the last bit out of these higher - quality recordings you would have to in fact , uh , use models that , uh , were trained on wider - band data . and of course we ca n't do that or grad e: wha - what 's ti - digits ? i thought t professor b: it 's wide - band , yeah . it 's in in fact , we looked it up grad e: it is wide - band . ok . professor b: and it was actually twenty kilohertz sampling . grad e: oh , that 's right . i i did look that up . phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: i could n't remember whether that was ti - digits or one of the other digit tasks . professor b: yeah . phd f: right . but but , i would yeah . it 's it 's easy enough to try , just run it on professor b: yeah . grad e: mm - hmm . professor b: see w grad e: so , morgan , you 're getting a little breath noise . phd f: now , eh , does grad e: you might wan na move the mike down a little bit . phd f: one one issue one issue with with that is that um , the system has this , uh , notion of a speaker to which is used in adaptation , variance norm uh , you know , both in , uh , mean and variance normalization and also in the vtl estimation . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: so grad e: yeah , i noticed the script that extracted it . phd f: do y ? is ? so does so th so does does , um , the ti - digits database have speakers that are known ? grad e: yep . yep . phd f: and is there is there enough data or a comparable comparable amount of data to to what we have in our recordings here ? grad e: that i do n't know . i do n't know . i do n't know how many speakers there are , professor b: yeah . grad e: and and how many speakers per utterance . phd f: ok . professor b: well , the other thing would be to do it without the adaptation and compare to these numbers without the adaptation . that would phd f: right . uh , but i 'm not so much worried about the adaptation , actually , than than the , um , um the , uh , vtl estimation . grad e: right . phd f: if you have only one utterance per speaker you might actually screw up on estimating the the warping , uh , factor . so , um grad e: i strongly suspect that they have more speakers than we do . so , uh phd f: right . but it 's not the amount of speakers , it 's the num it 's the amount of data per speaker . grad e: right . so we we could probably do an extraction that was roughly equivalent . phd f: right . right . grad e: um . phd f: so grad e: so , although i i sort of know how to run it , there are a little a f few details here and there that i 'll have to dig out . phd f: ok . the key so th the system actually extracts the speaker id from the waveform names . grad e: right . i saw that . phd f: and there 's a there 's a script and that is actually all in one script . so there 's this one script that parses waveform names and extracts things like the , um , speaker , uh , id or something that can stand in as a speaker id . so , we might have to modify that script to recognize the , um , speakers , um , in the in the , uh , um , ti - digits database . grad e: right . right . and that , uh phd f: or you can fake you can fake names for these waveforms that resemble the names that we use here for the for the meetings . grad e: right . phd f: that would be the , sort of probably the safest way to do grad e: i might have to do that anyway to to do because we may have to do an extract to get the amount of data per speaker about right . phd f: uh - huh . grad e: the other thing is , is n't ti - digits isolated digits ? phd f: right . grad e: or is that another one ? i 'm i looked through a bunch of the digits t corp corpora , and now they 're all blurring . professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: cuz one of them was literally people reading a single digit . and then others were connected digits . professor b: yeah . most of ti - digits is connected digits , i think . grad e: ok . professor b: the i mean , we had a bellcore corpus that we were using . it was that 's that was isolated digits . grad e: maybe it 's the bell gram . bell digits . alright . professor b: um . phd f: by the way , i think we can improve these numbers if we care to compr improve them by , um , not starting with the switchboard models but by taking the switchboard models and doing supervised adaptation on a small amount of digit data collected in this setting . grad e: yep . phd f: because that would adapt your models to the room acoustics and f for the far - field microphones , you know , to the noise . and that should really improve things , um , further . and then you use those adapted models , which are not speaker adapted but sort of acous you know , channel adapted grad e: channel adapted . phd f: use that as the starting models for your speaker adaptation . professor b: yeah . but the thing is , uh i mean , w when you it depends whether you 're ju were just using this as a a starter task for you know , to get things going for conversational or if we 're really interested i in connected digits . and i i think the answer is both . and for for connected digits over the telephone you do n't actually want to put a whole lot of effort into adaptation phd f: well , i do n't know . professor b: because somebody gets on the phone and says a number and then you just want it . you do n't do n't , uh postdoc c: this is this that one 's better . phd f: right . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: um , but , you know , i uh , my impression was that you were actually interested in the far - field microphone , uh , problem , i mean . so , you want to you want to that 's the obvious thing to try . postdoc c: oh . oh . professor b: right . phd f: right ? then , eh because you you do n't have any postdoc c: yeah . phd f: that 's where the most m acoustic mismatch is between the currently used models and the the r the set up here . professor b: right . phd f: so . professor b: yeah . so that 'd be anoth another interesting data point . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , i i guess i 'm saying i do n't know if we 'd want to do that as the as phd d: other way . grad e: other way . liz phd a: now you 're all watching me . grad e: it f it clips over your ears . phd a: alright . this way . grad e: there you go . postdoc c: if you have a strong fe if you have a strong preference , you could use this . phd a: you 're all watching . this is terrible . postdoc c: it 's just we we think it has some spikes . so , uh , we we did n't use that one . phd a: i 'll get it . postdoc c: but you could if you want . professor b: yeah . at any rate , i do n't know if w postdoc c: i do n't know . and andre - andreas , your your microphone 's a little bit low . professor b: yeah . phd f: it is ? professor b: i do n't know if we wan na use that as the postdoc c: yeah . grad e: uh , it pivots . phd f: uh . postdoc c: so if you see the picture grad e: it it like this . phd f: i i postdoc c: and then you have to scr phd f: i i already adjusted this a number of times . grad e: eh . phd f: i i grad e: yeah , i think these mikes are not working as well as i would like . phd f: ca n't quite seem to yeah , i think this contraption around your head is not working so well . professor b: too many adju too many adjustments . yeah . anyway , what i was saying is that i i think i probably would n't want to see that as sort of like the norm , that we compared all things to . postdoc c: that looks good . yeah . professor b: to , uh , the to have have all this ad all this , uh , adaptation . but i think it 's an important data point , if you 're if yeah . phd f: right . professor b: um . the other thing that that , uh of course , what barry was looking at was was just that , the near versus far . and , yeah , the adaptation would get th some of that . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: but , i think even even if there was , uh , only a factor of two or something , like i was saying in the email , i think that 's that 's a big factor . so phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: n grad e: liz , you could also just use the other mike if you 're having problems with that one . postdoc c: well . phd a: ok . postdoc c: yeah . this would be ok . we we we think that this has spikes on it , phd a: it 's this thing 's this is too big for my head . postdoc c: so it 's not as good acoustically , phd f: yeah , basically your ears are too big . postdoc c: but phd f: i mean , mine are too . e th everybody 's ears are too big for these things . phd a: no , my my but this is too big for my head . so , i mean , { comment } { comment } it does n't you know , it 's sit phd f: uh postdoc c: well , if you 'd rather have this one then it 's phd a: ok . professor b: yeah . grad e: oh , well . professor b: it 's great . grad e: so the to get that , uh , pivoted this way , it pivots like this . phd a: no this way . yeah . grad e: yeah . there you go . postdoc c: and there 's a screw that you can tighten . grad e: and then it phd a: right . grad e: right . phd a: i already tried to get it close . postdoc c: good . grad e: so if it does n't bounce around too much , that 's actually good placement . phd a: ok . postdoc c: that looks good . grad e: but it looks like it 's gon na bounce a lot . professor b: so , where were we ? uh yeah . postdoc c: yeah . grad e: digits . adaptation . professor b: uh , adaptation , non - adaptation , um , factor of two , um oh , yeah . i know what i was go w phd f: what k u by the way , wh what factor of two did you ? professor b: oh , no , no . phd f: i mean professor b: it 's tha that that we were saying , you know , well is how much worse is far than near , you know . phd f: oh , th ok . professor b: and i mean it depends on which one you 're looking at , phd f: that factor of two . professor b: but for the everybody , it 's little under a factor or two . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: yeah . i i know what i was thinking was that maybe , uh , i i we could actually t t try at least looking at , uh , some of the the large vocabulary speech from a far microphone , at least from the good one . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , before i thought we 'd get , you know , a hundred and fifty percent error or something , but if if , uh if we 're getting thirty - five , forty percent or something , u um phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: actually if you run , though , on a close - talking mike over the whole meeting , during all those silences , you get , like , four hundred percent word error . professor b: mm - hmm . right . i understand . but doing the same kind of limited thing phd a: or or some high number . professor b: yeah , sure . get all these insertions . but i 'm saying if you do the same kind of limited thing as people have done in switchboard evaluations or as a phd a: yeah . where you know who the speaker is and there 's no overlap ? and you do just the far - field for those regions ? professor b: yeah . yeah . the same sort of numbers that we got those graphs from . right ? grad e: could we do exactly the same thing that we 're doing now , but do it with a far - field mike ? professor b: yeah , do it with one of on grad e: cuz we extract the times from the near - field mike , but you use the acoustics from the far - field mike . phd a: right . i understand that . i just meant that so you have three choices . there 's , um you can use times where that person is talking only from the transcripts but the segmentations were were synchronized . or you can do a forced alignment on the close - talking to determine that , the you know , within this segment , these really were the times that this person was talking and elsewhere in the segment other people are overlapping and just front - end those pieces . or you can run it on the whole data , which is which is , you know , a professor b: but but but how did we get the how did we determine the links , uh , that we 're testing on in the stuff we reported ? phd a: in the h l t paper we took segments that are channel time - aligned , which is now h being changed in the transcription process , which is good , and we took cases where the transcribers said there was only one person talking here , because no one else had time any words in that segment and called that `` non - overlap `` . professor b: and tha and that 's what we were getting those numbers from . phd a: yes . tho - good the good numbers . professor b: right . phd a: the bad numbers were from the segments where there was overlap . professor b: well , we could start with the good ones . phd a: yeah . professor b: but anyway so i think that we should try it once with the same conditions that were used to create those , and in those same segments just use one of the p z phd a: right . so we we can do that . yeah . professor b: and then , you know , i mean , the thing is if we were getting , uh what , thirty - five , forty percent , something like that on on that particular set , uh , does it go to seventy or eighty ? phd a: right . professor b: or , does it use up so much memory we ca n't decode it ? phd a: it might also depend on which speaker th it is and how close they are to the pzm ? professor b: uh phd a: i do n't know how different they are from each other . phd f: you want to probably choose the pzm channel that is closest to the speaker . phd a: to be best phd d: yeah . grad e: for this particular digit ones , i just picked that one . phd a: f professor b: well phd a: ok . so we would then use that one , too , grad e: so phd f: oh , ok . professor b: this is kind of central . phd a: or ? professor b: you know , it 's so i but i would i 'd pick that one . it 'll be less good for some people than for other , but i i 'd like to see it on the same exact same data set that that we did the other thing on . grad e: actually i sh actually should 've picked a different one , professor b: right ? grad e: because that could be why the pda is worse . because it 's further away from most of the people reading digits . phd d: it 's further away . yeah . yeah . professor b: that 's probably one of the reasons . postdoc c: hmm . mm - hmm . phd a: well , yeah . you could look at , i guess , that pzm or something . grad e: yep . professor b: but the other is , it 's very , uh i mean , even though there 's i 'm sure the f f the the sri , uh , front - end has some kind of pre - emphasis , it 's it 's , uh still , th it 's picking up lots of low - frequency energy . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: so , even discriminating against it , i 'm sure some of it 's getting through . um . but , yeah , you 're right . prob - a part of it is just the distance . phd a: and are n't these pretty bad microphones ? grad e: yep . phd a: i mean professor b: well , they 're bad . but , i mean , if you listen to it , it sounds ok . you know ? u yeah . grad e: yeah . when you listen to it , uh , the pzm and the pda yeah , th the pda has higher sound floor but not by a lot . it 's really pretty uh , pretty much the same . phd a: i just remember you saying you got them to be cheap on purpose . cheap in terms of their quality . so . professor b: well , they 're twenty - five cents or so . grad e: th - we wanted them to be to be typical of what would be in a pda . professor b: yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . grad e: so they are they 're not the pzm three hundred dollar type . they 're the twenty - five cent , professor b: yeah . grad e: buy them in packs of thousand type . phd a: i see . professor b: but , i mean , the thing is people use those little mikes for everything because they 're really not bad . grad e: everything . phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: i mean , if you 're not doing something ridiculous like feeding it to a speech recognizer , they they they you know , you can hear the sou hear the sounds just fine . phd a: right . professor b: you know , it 's they i mean , i it 's more or less the same principles as these other mikes are built under , it 's just that there 's less quality control . they just , you know , churn them out and do n't check them . um . so . so that was yeah . so that was i interesting result . so like i said , the front - end guys are very much interested in in this is as as well and phd f: so so , but where is this now ? i mean , what 's where do we go from here ? grad e: yeah . that was gon na be my question . phd f: i mean , we so we have a we have a a system that works pretty well but it 's not , you know , the system that people here are used to using to working with . professor b: well , i think what we wan na do is we want to eh , phd f: so what what do we do now ? professor b: and we 've talked about this in other contexts we want to have the ability to feed it different features . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and then , um , from the point of view of the front - end research , it would be s uh , substituting for htk . phd f: ok . ok . professor b: i think that 's the key thing . and then if we can feed it different features , then we can try all the different things that we 're trying there . phd f: ok . alright . professor b: and then , um , uh , also dave is is thinking about using the data in different ways , uh , to um , uh , explicitly work on reverberation phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: starting with some techniques that some other people have found somewhat useful , and yeah . phd f: ok . so so the key thing that 's missing here is basically the ability to feed , you know , other features i into the recognizer professor b: right . phd f: and also then to train the system . professor b: right . phd f: ok . and , uh , es i do n't know when chuck will be back but that 's exactly what he he 's gon na professor b: h h he 's he 's sort of back , but he drove for fourteen hours an and was n't gon na make it in today . phd f: oh , ok . so , i think that 's one of the things that he said he would be working on . um . grad e: yeah . phd f: just sort of t to make sure that we can do that professor b: yeah . phd f: and um . professor b: right . phd f: it 's uh , i mean , the the front - end is f i tha that 's in the sri recognizer is very nice in that it does a lot of things on the fly but it unfortunately is not designed and , um like the , uh , icsi system is , where you can feed it from a pipeline of of the command . so , the what that means probably for the foreseeable future is that you have to , uh , dump out , um you know , if you want to use some new features , you have to dump them into individual files and give those files to the recognizer . grad e: we do we tend to do that anyway . phd f: ok . grad e: oh . so , although you you can pipe it as well , we tend to do it that way because that way you can concentrate on one block and not keep re - doing it over and over . phd f: oh , ok . professor b: yeah . phd f: alright . professor b: yeah . so i 've i grad e: so tha that 's exactly what the p - file is for . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah , the the the cumbersome thing is is , um is that you actually have to dump out little little files . phd a: uh phd f: so for each segment that you want to recognize you have to dump out a separate file . grad e: uh - huh . phd f: just like i th like th as if there were these waveform segments , but instead you have sort of feature file segments . but , you know so . professor b: cool . ok . so the s the the next thing we had on the agenda was something about alignments ? phd a: oh . yes , we have i do n't know , did you wan na talk about it , or ? i can give a i was just telling this to jane and and w we we were able to get some definite improvement on the forced alignments by looking at them first and then realizing the kinds of errors that were occurring and um , some of the errors occurring very frequently are just things like the first word being moved to as early as possible in the recognition , which is a um , i think was both a a pruning problem and possibly a problem with needing constraints on word locations . and so we tried both of these st things . we tried saying i do n't know , i got this whacky idea that just from looking at the data , that when people talk their words are usually chunked together . it 's not that they say one word and then there 's a bunch of words together . they 're { comment } might say one word and then another word far away if they were doing just backchannels ? but in general , if there 's , like , five or six words and one word 's far away from it , that 's probably wrong on average . so , um and then also , ca the pruning , of course , was too too severe . phd f: so that 's actually interesting . the pruning was the same value that we used for recognition . and we had lowered that we had used tighter pruning after liz ran some experiments showing that , you know , it runs slower and there 's no real difference in phd a: actually it was better with slightly better or about th grad e: no gain . phd a: it was the same with tighter pruning . phd f: right . so for free recognition , this the lower pruning value is better . phd a: it 's probably cuz the recognition 's just bad en at a point where it 's bad enough that that you do n't lose anything . phd f: you correct . right . um , but it turned out for for to get accurate alignments it was really important to open up the pruning significantly . phd a: right . professor b: hmm . phd f: um because otherwise it would sort of do greedy alignment , um , in regions where there was no real speech yet from the foreground speaker . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: um , so that was one big factor that helped improve things and then the other thing was that , you know , as liz said the we f enforce the fact that , uh , the foreground speech has to be continuous . it can not be you can not have a background speech hypothesis in the middle of the foreground speech . you can only have background speech at the beginning and the end . phd a: yeah . i mean , yeah , it is n't always true , and i think what we really want is some clever way to do this , where , um , you know , from the data or from maybe some hand - corrected alignments from transcribers that things like words that do occur just by themselves a alone , like backchannels or something that we did allow to have background speech around it phd d: yeah . phd a: those would be able to do that , postdoc c: sorry . phd a: but the rest would be constrained . so , i think we have a version that 's pretty good for the native speakers . i do n't know yet about the non - native speakers . and , um , we basically also made noise models for the different sort of grouped some of the mouth noises together . um , so , and then there 's a background speech model . and we also there was some neat or , interesting cases , like there 's one meeting where , um , jose 's giving a presentation and he 's talking about , um , the word `` mixed signal `` and someone did n't understand , uh , that you were saying `` mixed `` i think , morgan . and so your speech - ch was s saying something about mixed signal . phd h: yeah , yeah . phd a: and the next turn was a lot of people saying `` mixed `` , like `` he means mixed signal `` or `` i think it 's mixed `` . and the word `` mixed `` in this segment occurs , like , a bunch of times . phd h: sh phd a: and chuck 's on the lapel here , and he also says `` mixed `` but it 's at the last one , and of course the aligner th aligns it everywhere else to everybody else 's `` mixed `` , phd h: yeah . phd a: cuz there 's no adaptation yet . so there 's i think there 's some issues about u we probably want to adapt at least the foreground speaker . but , i guess andreas tried adapting both the foreground and a background generic speaker , and that 's actually a little bit of a f funky model . like , it gives you some weird alignments , just because often the background speakers match better to the foreground than the foreground speaker . phd f: oh phd d: yeah . phd a: so there 's some things there , phd h: oh . phd a: especially when you get lots of the same words , uh , occurring in the phd f: well , the i i think you can do better by uh , cloning so we have a reject phone . and you and what we wanted to try with you know , once we have this paper written and have a little more time , uh , t cloning that reject model and then one copy of it would be adapted to the foreground speaker to capture the rejects in the foreground , like fragments and stuff , and the other copy would be adapted to the background speaker . phd a: right . i mean , in general we actually phd f: and phd a: right now the words like partial words are reject models and you normally allow those to match to any word . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: but then the background speech was also a reject model , and so this constraint of not allowing rejects in between you know , it needs to differentiate between the two . so just sort of working through a bunch of debugging kinds of issues . phd f: right . phd a: and another one is turns , like people starting with `` well i think `` and someone else is `` well how about `` . so the word `` well `` is in this in this segment multiple times , and as soon as it occurs usually the aligner will try to align it to the first person who says it . but then that constraint of sort of uh , proximity constraint will push it over to the person who really said it in general . grad e: is the proximity constraint a hard constraint , or did you do some sort of probabilistic weighting distance , or ? phd f: we we did n't phd a: right now it 's a kluge . phd f: no . we w ok . we it 's straightforward to actually just have a a penalty that does n't completely disallows it but discourages it . but , um , we just did n't have time to play with , you know , tuning yet another yet another parameter . grad e: the ve level . yeah . phd a: yeah . phd f: and really the reason we ca n't do it is just that we do n't have a we do n't have ground truth for these . so , we would need a hand - marked , um , word - level alignments or at least sort of the boundaries of the speech betw you know , between the speakers . um , and then use that as a reference and tune the parameters of the of the model , uh , to op to get the best performance . phd a: yeah . professor b: g given i i mean , i wa i wa i was gon na ask you anyway , uh , how you assessed that things were better . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: i looked at them . i spent two days um , in waves professor b: ok . phd a: oh , it was painful because the thing is , you know the alignments share a lot in common , so and you 're yo you 're looking at these segments where there 's a lot of speech . i mean , a lot of them have a lot of words . not by every speaker professor b: yeah . phd a: but by some speaker there 's a lot of words . no , not professor b: yeah . phd a: i mean that if you look at the individual segments from just one person you do n't see a lot of words , phd h: ju professor b: yeah . phd a: but altogether you 'll see a lot of words up there . professor b: yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: and so the reject is also mapping and pauses so i looked at them all in waves and just lined up all the alignments , and , at first it sort of looked like a mess and then the more i looked at it , i thought `` ok , well it 's moving these words leftward and `` you know , it was n't that bad . it was just doing certain things wrong . so but , i do n't , you know , have time to l { comment } to look at all of them and it would be really useful to have , like , a a transcriber who could use waves , um , just mark , like , the beginning and end of the foreground speaker 's real words like , the beginning of the first word , the end of the last word and then we could , you know , do some adjustments . postdoc c: yeah . i ok . i have to ask you something , is i does it have to be waves ? because if we could benefit from what you did , incorporate that into the present transcripts , { comment } that would help . phd f: no . postdoc c: and then , um , the other thing is , i believe that i did hand so . one of these transcripts was gone over by a transcriber and then i hand - marked it myself so that we do have , uh , the beginning and ending of individual utterances . um , i did n't do it word level , phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: but but in terms phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: so i so for for one of the n s a groups . and also i went back to the original one that i first transcribed and and did it w uh , w uh , utterance by utterance for that particular one . so i think you do have if that 's a sufficient unit , i think that you do have hand - marking for that . but it 'd be wonderful to be able to benefit from your waves stuff . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: we do n't care what what tool you use . phd a: yeah . i mean , if if you can , um if you wan na postdoc c: ok . i used it in transcriber phd f: u uh postdoc c: and it 's it 's in the phd a: well , jane and i were just in terms of the tool , talking about this . i guess sue had had some reactions . you know , interface - wise if you 're looking at speech , you wan na be able to know really where the words are . and so , we can give you some examples of sort of what this output looks like , postdoc c: yeah , that 's right . middle of the word , or phd a: um , and see if you can in maybe incorporate it into the transcriber tool some way , or postdoc c: well , i th i 'm thinking just ch e e incorporating it into the representation . phd a: um . postdoc c: i mean , if it 's if it 's phd a: you mean like yeah , word start insights . postdoc c: if you have start points , if you have , like , time tags , phd a: right . postdoc c: which is what i assume . is n't that what what you ? well , see , adam would be phd f: yeah , whatever you use . phd a: yeah . phd f: i mean , we convert it to this format that the , um , nist scoring tool unders uh , ctm . conversation time - marked file . and and then that 's the that 's what the grad e: i think transcriber , uh , outputs ctm . postdoc c: if it ? ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: so you would know this more than i would . grad e: i think so . phd a: so , i mean postdoc c: it seems like she if she 's g if she 's moving time marks around , phd f: right . postdoc c: since our representation in transcriber uses time marks , it seems like there should be some way of of using that benefitting from that . grad e: right . phd a: yeah , it wou the advantage would just be that when you brought up a bin you would be able if you were zoomed in enough in transcriber to see all the words , professor b: mm - hmm . phd a: you would be able to , like , have the words sort of located in time , if you wanted to do that . professor b: so so if we e e even just had a a it sounds like w we we almost do . phd a: so . professor b: uh , if we we have two . postdoc c: we have two . professor b: yeah . just ha uh , trying out the alignment procedure that you have on that phd a: mm - hmm . professor b: you could actually get something , um uh , uh , get an objective measure . uh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: you mean on on the hand - marked , um so we we only r hav i only looked at actually alignments from one meeting that we chose , professor b: yeah . phd a: i think mr four , just randomly , um and phd f: actually , not randomly . phd a: not randomly phd f: we knew we knew that it had these insertion errors from phd a: it had sort of average recognition performance in a bunch of speakers phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: and it was a meeting recorder meeting . um . but , yeah , we should try to use what you have . i did re - run recognition on your new version of mr one . postdoc c: oh , good . phd a: i i mean the the one with dan ellis in it and eric . postdoc c: good ! uh - huh . yeah , exactly . yeah . yeah . grad g: i do n't think that was the new version . phd a: um that yeah , actually it was n't the new new , it was the medium new . postdoc c: ok . phd a: but but we would we should do the the latest version . postdoc c: ok . grad g: yeah . phd a: it was the one from last week . grad g: you did you adjust the the utterance times , um , for each channel ? postdoc c: yes . yes , i did . and furthermore , i found that there were a certain number where not not a lot , but several times i actually moved an utterance from adam 's channel to dan 's or from dan 's to adam 's . so there was some speaker identif and the reason was because i transcribed that at a point before uh , before we had the multiple audio available f so i could n't switch between the audio . i i transcribed it off of the mixed channel entirely , which meant in overlaps , i was at a at a terrific disadvantage . phd a: right . right . postdoc c: in addition it was before the channelized , uh , possibility was there . and finally i did it using the speakers of my , um of you know , off the cpu on my on my machine cuz i did n't have a headphone . phd a: right . postdoc c: so it @ @ , like , i mean yeah , i i mean , i in retrospect it would 've been good to ha have got i should 've gotten a headphone . but in any case , um , thi this is this was transcribed in a in a , uh , less optimal way than than the ones that came after it , and i was able to you know , an and this meant that there were some speaker identif identifications which were changes . grad g: well , i know there were some speaker labelling problems , um , after interruptions . postdoc c: yeah . fixed that . grad g: is that what you 're referring to ? i mean , cuz there 's this one instance when , for example , you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: oh , well grad g: i remember this meeting really well . phd d: yeah . phd a: don don has had he knows he can just read it like a play . grad g: right . it 's a yeah , i 've i 've i 'm very well acquainted with this meeting . phd d: yeah . grad g: yeah , i can s phd a: `` and then she said , and then he said . `` grad g: yeah , i know it by heart . so , um , there 's one point when you 're running down the stairs . postdoc c: uh - oh . grad g: right ? and , like , there 's an interruption . you interrupt somebody , but then there 's no line after that . for example , there 's no speaker identification after that line . postdoc c: uh - huh . grad g: is that what you 're talking about ? or were there mislabellings as far as , like , the a adam was ? postdoc c: that was fixed , um , before i i i i think i i think i understood that pretty grad g: yeah . cuz i thought i let you know about that . postdoc c: thank you for mentioning . yeah , no , tha that that i think went away a couple of versions ago , grad g: yeah . ok . postdoc c: but it 's good to know . grad g: but you 're actually saying that certain , uh , speakers were mis mis - identified . postdoc c: yeah . so , with under um , uh , listening to the mixed channel , there were times when , as surprising as that is , i got adam 's voice confused with dan 's and vice versa grad g: ok . postdoc c: not for long utterances , grad g: ok . phd a: yeah . postdoc c: but jus just a couple of places , professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and embedde embedded in overlaps . the other thing that was w interesting to me was that i picked up a lot of , um , backchannels which were hidden in the mixed signal , phd a: right . postdoc c: which , you know , i mean , you c not not too surprising . but the other thing that i i had n't thought about this , but i thou i wanted to raise this when you were uh , with respect to also a strategy which might help with the alignments potentially , but that 's when i was looking at these backchannels , they were turning up usually very often in w well , i wo n't say `` usually `` but anyway , very often , i picked them up in a channel w which was the person who had asked a question . s so , like , someone says `` an and have you done the so - and - so ? `` and then there would be backchannels , but it would be the person who asked the question . other people were n't really doing much backchannelling . and , you know , sometimes you have the yeah , uh - huh . phd a: well , that 's interesting . yeah . postdoc c: i mean , i it would n't be perfect , but but it does seem more natural to give a backchannel when when you 're somehow involved in the topic , phd a: no , that 's really interesting . professor b: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and the most natural way is for you to have initiated the topic by asking a question . phd f: well , phd a: that 's interesting . phd f: i think no . i think it 's actually i think what 's going on is backchannelling is something that happens in two - party conversations . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: and if you ask someone a question , you essentially initiating a little two - party conversation . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: well , actu yeah , when we looked at this postdoc c: exactly . phd f: so then you 're so and then you 're expected to backchannel because the person is addressing you directly and not everybody . postdoc c: exactly . exactly my point . an - and so this is the expectation thing that uh , uh , phd f: yeah . yeah . phd a: mm - hmm . phd f: right . postdoc c: just the dyadic phd f: right . postdoc c: but in addition , you know , if someone has done this analysis himself and is n't involved in the dyad , but they might also give backchannels to verify what what the answer is that this that the the answerer 's given professor b: h phd a: right . professor b: i tell you , i say i say `` uh - huh `` a lot , phd a: it 's postdoc c: there you go . phd a: well , but it 's interesting cuz , uh professor b: while people are talking to each other . phd a: but there are fewer i think there are fewer `` uh - huhs `` . postdoc c: there you go . yeah . yeah . phd a: i mean , just from we were looking at word frequency lists to try to find the cases that we would allow to have the reject words in between in doing the alignment . you know the ones we would n't constrain to be next to the other words . postdoc c: oh , yeah . phd a: and `` uh - huh `` is not as frequent as it sort of would be in switchboard , if you looked at just a word frequency list of one - word short utterances . and `` yeah `` is way up there , but not `` uh - huh `` . and so i was thinking thi it 's not like you 're being encouraged by everybody else to keep talking in the meeting . and uh , that 's all , i i 'll stop there , cuz i i think what you say makes a lot of sense . postdoc c: well , that 's right . and that would phd a: but it was sort of postdoc c: well , an and what you say is the is the re uh , o other side of this , which is that , you know , so th there are lots of channels where you do n't have these backchannels , w when a question has been asked and and these phd a: right . there 's just probably less backchannelling in general , postdoc c: mm - hmm . so that 's good news , really . phd a: even if you consider every other person altogether one person in the meeting , but we 'll find out anyway . we were i guess the other thing we 're we 're i should say is that we 're gon na , um try compare this type of overlap analysis to switchboard , where phd f: and phd a: and callhome , where we have both sides , so that we can try to answer this question of , you know , is there really more overlap in meetings or is it just because we do n't have the other channel in switchboard professor b: mm - hmm . grad e: mm - hmm . phd a: and we do n't know what people are doing . try to create a paper out of that . professor b: yeah . i mean , y y you folks have probably already told me , but were were you intending to do a eurospeech submission , or ? phd a: um , you mean the one due tomorrow ? professor b: yeah . phd a: yeah . well , we 're still , like , writing the scripts for doing the research , and we will yes , we 're gon na try . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: and i was telling don , do not take this as an example of how people should work . professor b: do as i say , grad g: that 's r phd a: so , { comment } we will try . professor b: do n't do as i do . yeah . phd a: it 'll probably be a little late , grad e: well phd a: but i 'm gon na try it . grad e: it is different . in previous years , eurospeech only had the abstract due by now , not the full paper . phd a: right . grad g: right . grad e: and so all our timing was off . i 've given up on trying to do digits . i just do n't think that what i have so far makes a eurospeech paper . phd a: well , i 'm no we may be in the same position , and i figured we 'll try , because that 'll at least get us to the point where we have we have this really nice database format that andreas and i were working out that it it 's not very fancy . it 's just a ascii line by line format , but it does give you information phd f: it 's the it 's the spurt format . phd a: it yeah , we 're calling these `` spurts `` after chafe . i was trying to find what 's a word for a continuous region with pauses around it ? postdoc c: hmm . professor b: yeah . i know that th the telecom people use use `` spurt `` for that . postdoc c: good . phd a: they do ? oh ! professor b: yes . phd f: oh . phd a: oh . professor b: and that 's i mean , i i was using that for a while when i was doing the rate of speech stuff , phd a: i would jus professor b: because i because i looked up in some books and i found ok , i wan na find a spurt in which phd a: ah , right ! it 's just , like , defined by the acoustics . professor b: and an because cuz it 's another question about how many pauses they put in between them . grad e: horrible . phd a: right . professor b: but how fast do they do the words within the spurt ? phd a: right . professor b: yeah . phd a: well , that 's what we were calling spurt , grad e: it 's gon na grad g: you know `` burst `` also ? grad e: burst . grad g: is n't `` burst `` is used also ? phd a: so grad e: spurt has the horrible name overloading with other with hardware at icsi . professor b: here . just very locally , yeah . phd a: well , well , chafe had this wor i think it was chafe , or somebody had a the word `` spurt `` originally , professor b: but but that just phd h: here @ @ phd a: and so i but tha that 's good to know . postdoc c: actually phd a: was thi it 's chafe ? postdoc c: well , see , i know s sue wrote about spurts of development . phd f: so maybe we should talk phd a: maybe it was sue ? y postdoc c: but , in any case , i think it 's a good term , phd a: so we have spurts and we have spurt - ify dot shell and spurt - ify professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and , uh grad e: hmm ! professor b: yeah . postdoc c: and ma maybe maybe chafe did . phd f: uh . phd a: and then it 's got all it 's a verb now . postdoc c: i know i know ch - chafe dealt with phd f: so s grad g: that 's cool . phd f: w uh , w postdoc c: chafe speaks about intonation units . phd a: yes . right . postdoc c: but maybe he speaks about spurts as well phd f: we postdoc c: and i just do n't know . yeah , go ahead . grad e: i 've heard `` burst `` also . phd f: so what we 're doing uh , this this is just maybe someone has s some some ideas about how to do it better , grad g: mmm . phd f: but we so we 're taking these , uh , alignments from the individual channels . we 're from each alignment we 're producing , uh , one of these ctm files , postdoc c: great . phd f: which essentially has it 's just a linear sequence of words with the begin times for every word and the duration . phd a: it looks like a waves label file almost . right ? phd f: and and and of course phd a: it 's just phd f: right . but it has one the first column has the meeting name , so it could actually contain several meetings . um . and the second column is the channel . third column is the , um , start times of the words and the fourth column is the duration of the words . and then we 're , um ok . then we have a messy alignment process where we actually insert into the sequence of words the , uh , tags for , like , where where sentence ends of sentence , question marks , um , various other things . phd a: yeah . these are things that we had don phd f: uh . phd a: so , don sort of , um , propagated the punctuation from the original transcriber phd f: right . phd a: so whether it was , like , question mark or period or , um , you know , comma and things like that , and we kept the and disfluency dashes uh , kept those in because we sort of wan na know where those are relative to the spurt overlaps phd f: mm - hmm . right . phd a: sp overlaps , phd f: so so those are actually sort of retro - fitted into the time alignment . phd a: or phd f: and then we merge all the alignments from the various channels and we sort them by time . and then there 's a then there 's a process where you now determine the spurts . that is actually , no , you do that before you merge the various channels . so you you id identify by some criterion , which is pause length you identify the beginnings and ends of these spurts , and you put another set of tags in there to keep those straight . professor b: mm - hmm . phd f: and then you merge everything in terms of , you know , linearizing the sequence based on the time marks . and then you extract the individual channels again , but this time you know where the other people start and end talking you know , where their spurts start and end . and so you extract the individual channels , uh , one sp spurt by spurt as it were . um , and inside the words or between the words you now have begin and end tags for overlaps . so , you you basically have everything sort of lined up and in a form where you can look at the individual speakers and how their speech relates to the other speakers ' speech . grad e: right . phd a: uh , i mean , i think that 's actually really u useful also phd f: and phd a: because even if you were n't studying overlaps , if you wan na get a transcription for the far - field mikes , how are you gon na know which words from which speakers occurred at which times relative to each other ? you have to be able to get a transcript like like this anyway , just for doing far - field recognition . so , you know , it 's it 's sort of phd f: yeah . phd a: i thi it 's just an issue we have n't dealt with before , how you time - align things that are overlapping anyway . postdoc c: that 's wonderful . phd f: so phd a: i mean , i i never thought about it before , grad e: well phd f: and and we phd a: but grad e: y yes . phd f: in grad e: i mean , s when i came up with the original data suggested data format based on the transcription graph , there 's capability of doing that sort of thing in there . phd a: right . but you ca n't get it directly from the transcription . postdoc c: mm - hmm . yeah , that 's right . phd f: right . well , this is this is just phd a: yeah , this is like a poor man 's ver formatting version . but it 's , you know it 's clean , it 's just not fancy . grad e: right . phd a: um . phd f: well , there 's lots of little things . it 's like there 're twelve different scripts which you run and then at the end you have what you want . but , um , at the very last stage we throw away the actual time information . all we care about is whether that there 's a certain word was overlapped by someone else 's word . so you sort of at that point , you discretize things into just having overlap or no overlap . because we figure that 's about the level of analysis that we want to do for this paper . grad e: mm - hmm . phd f: but if you wanted to do a more fine - grained analysis and say , you know , how far into the word is the overlap , you could do that . phd a: yeah . phd f: it 's just it 'll just require more phd a: just sort of huge . phd f: you know , slightly different postdoc c: what 's interesting is it 's exactly what , um , i in discussing with , um , sue about this , phd a: yeah . postdoc c: um , she , um , i i i indicated that that you know , that 's very important for overlap analysis . phd a: yeah . it 's it 's nice to know , phd f: right . phd a: and also i think as a human , like , i do n't always hear these in the actual order that they occur . so i can have two foreground speakers , you know , morgan an and um , adam and jane could all be talking , and i could align each of them to be starting their utterance at the correct time , and then look where they are relative to each other , and that 's not really what i heard . postdoc c: and that 's another thing she said . phd a: cuz it 's just hard to do . postdoc c: this is this is bever 's bever 's effect , phd a: y yeah . postdoc c: when where in psy ps psycho - linguistics you have these experiments where people have perceptual biases a as to what they hear , phd a: it 's sort of yeah , you sort of move things around until you get to a low information point postdoc c: that that not the best phd a: and yo then you can bring in the other person . so it 's actually not even possible , i think , for any person to listen to a mixed signal , even equalize , and make sure that they have all the words in the right order . so , i guess , we 'll try to write this eurospeech paper . postdoc c: mm - hmm . superb . phd a: i mean , we will write it . whether they accept it late or not , i do n't know . um , and the good thing is that we have it 's sort of a beginning of what don can use to link the prosodic features from each file to each other . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . that 's the good thing about these pape phd a: so . i you know , might as well . phd f: plus , mayb phd h: hmm ? phd a: we - i ju otherwise we wo n't get the work done { comment } on our deadline . phd f: i do n't know , m professor b: yeah . phd f: i mean , u u jane likes to look at data . maybe , you know , you could you could look at this format and see if you find anything interesting . professor b: yeah . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: yeah . professor b: no , it 's that 's the good thing about these pape paper deadlines and , uh , you know , class projects , and and things like that , postdoc c: well , what i 'm thinking is phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd a: right . phd f: mm - hmm . postdoc c: well , my phd f: well th th the other thing that that that yo that you usually do n't tell your graduate students is that these deadlines are actually not that , um , you know , strictly enforced , professor b: because you you really get g phd a: forces you to do the work . postdoc c: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd a: exactly . grad e: strict . phd f: because the professor b: oh , now it 's out in the public , this this this secret information . phd f: because phd a: right . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: i think we can ha phd f: bec b nah phd a: so grad e: no . professor b: no . postdoc c: nah . phd f: i because these the conference organizers actually have an interest in getting lots of submissions . phd a: right . grad e: right . phd f: i mean , a a monetary interest . professor b: yeah . phd f: so um . professor b: th - that 's that 's true . postdoc c: and good ones , good ones , which sometimes means a little extra time . phd f: and good submission professor b: that 's phd f: right . professor b: that 's true . phd f: well that 's another issue , professor b: by th by the way , this is totally unfair , you may you may feel , phd f: but professor b: but the the , uh the morning meeting folks actually have an an extra month or so . phd f: mm - hmm . phd d: yep . grad e: yep . the aurora there 's a special aurora phd a: uh phd f: when professor b: there 's a special aurora session phd a: oh . professor b: and the aurora pe people involved in aurora have till ma - uh , early may or something to turn in their paper . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh . phd f: mmm . phd a: oh , well maybe we 'll submit to s { comment } actually phd f: well , then you can just maybe you can submit the digits paper on e for the aurora session . phd h: yeah . phd a: yeah . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i could ! phd a: yeah . professor b: i if it w grad e: i could submit that to aurora . professor b: well grad e: that would be pretty pretty phd f: yeah . professor b: i it has phd a: yeah . professor b: grad e: s that would n't work . professor b: no , it would n't work . grad e: it 's not aurora . professor b: it 's it 's not the aurora i mean , it it 's it 's actually the aurora task . phd a: maybe they 'll get s grad e: aurora 's very specific . professor b: it phd a: well , maybe it wo n't be after this deadline extension . phd f: but but the people i mean , a a paper that is not on aurora would probably be more interesting at that point phd a: maybe they 'll phd f: because everybody 's so sick and tired of the aurora task . phd d: yeah . grad e: oh , i thought you meant this was just the digits section . i did n't know you meant it was aurora digits . professor b: yeah . phd f: well , no . if you if you have it 's to if you discuss some relation to the aurora task , like if you use the same professor b: this is not the aurora task . so they just do a little grep for phd a: do uh , d d do not do not we are not setting a good example . phd f: um . well , a relation other than negation , maybe , phd a: this is not a phd f: um . so . phd a: anyway . phd f: i do n't know . phd a: but the good thing is this does grad e: well , i i do n't know . i mean , you could you could do a paper on what 's wrong with the aurora task by comparing it to other ways of doing it . phd f: how well does an aurora system do on on you know , on digits collected in a in this environment ? phd h: grad e: different way . yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: maybe . phd f: maybe . grad e: pretty hokey . professor b: i think it 's a littl little far - fetched . nah , i mean , the thing is aurora 's pretty closed community . grad e: yep . professor b: i mean , you know , the people who were involved in the the only people who are allowed to test on that are people who who made it above a certain threshold in the first round , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: it 's very specific . professor b: uh w in ninety - nine and it 's it 's sort of a it 's not like a phd f: well , that 's maybe why they do n't f know that they have a crummy system . i mean , a crummy back - end . no , i mean i mean , seriously , if you if you have a very no , i 'm sorry . phd a: uh , { comment } `` beep `` `` bee `` grad e: i mean , th phd f: no . i did n't mean anybody any particular system . i meant this h t k back - end . professor b: oh , you do n't like htk ? phd f: if they phd h: yeah . phd f: i do n't h i do n't have any stock in htk or entropic or anything . professor b: no . i mean , this it it 's the htk that is trained on a very limited amount of data . grad e: it 's d it 's very specific . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: but so , if you but maybe you should , you know , consider more using more data , or i mean professor b: oh , yeah . i i really think that that 's true . and they i i phd f: if yo if you sort of hermetically stay within one task and do n't look left and right , then you 're gon na grad e: but they they had professor b: i but grad e: they had something very specific in mind when they designed it . right ? professor b: well , u i phd f: right . grad e: and so so you can you can argue about maybe that was n't the right thing to do , but , you know , they they they had something specific . professor b: but , one of the reasons i have chuck 's messing around with with the back - end that you 're not supposed to touch i mean , for the evaluations , yes , we 'll run a version that has n't been touched . phd f: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . professor b: but , uh , one of the reasons i have him messing around with that , because i think it 's sort of an open question that we do n't know the answer to . people always say very glibly that i if you s show improvement on a bad system , that does n't mean anything , cuz it may not be show uh , because , you know , it does n't tell you anything about the good system . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and i i 've always sort of felt that that depends . you know , that if some peopl if you 're actually are getting at something that has some conceptual substance to it , it will port . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: and in fact , most methods that people now use were originally tried with something that was not their absolute best system at some level . but of course , sometimes it does n't , uh , port . so i think that 's that 's an interesting question . if we 're getting three percent error on , uh , u uh , english , uh , nati native speakers , um , using the aurora system , and we do some improvements and bring it from three to two , do those same improvements bring , uh , th you know , the sri system from one point three to you know , to point eight ? phd f: hmm . mm - hmm . grad e: zero . professor b: well . you know , so that 's that 's something we can test . phd f: mmm . right . professor b: so . anyway . phd f: ok . professor b: i think we 've we 've covered that one up extremely well . postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd f: whew ! professor b: ok . so , um yeah . so tha so we 'll you know , maybe you guys 'll have have one . uh , you you and , uh and dan have have a paper that that 's going in . phd d: yeah . professor b: you know , that 's that 's pretty solid , on the segmentation stuff . phd d: yeah . yeah . i will send you the the final version , professor b: yeah . and the aurora folks here will will definitely get something in on aurora , phd d: which is not phd f: actually this this , um so , there 's another paper . professor b: so . phd f: it 's a eurospeech paper but not related to meetings . but it 's on digits . so , um , uh , a colleague at sri developed a improved version of mmie training . professor b: uh - huh . phd f: and he tested it mostly on digits because it 's sort of a you know , it does n't take weeks to train it . professor b: right . phd f: um . and got some very impressive results , um , with , you know , discriminative , uh , gaussian training . um , you know , like , um , error rates go from i do n't know , in very noisy environment , like from , uh , uh i for now i ok , now i have the order of magnit i 'm not sure about the order of magnitude . was it like from ten percent to eight percent or from e e you know , point you know , from one percent to point eight percent ? professor b: h i it got it got better . phd f: i mean , it 's a professor b: yeah , yeah . phd d: yeah . phd f: it got better . that 's the important thing . grad e: hey , that 's the same percent relative , phd f: yeah . but it 's grad e: so phd f: yeah . right . professor b: yeah . phd f: it 's , uh , something in professor b: yeah . grad e: twenty percent relative gain . phd f: right . professor b: yeah . phd f: yeah . professor b: yeah . um , let 's see . i think the only thing we had left was unless somebody else well , there 's a couple things . uh , one is anything that , um , anybody has to say about saturday ? anything we should do in prep for saturday ? um i guess everybody knows about i mean , u um , mari was asking was trying to come up with something like an agenda and we 're sort of fitting around people 's times a bit . but , um , clearly when we actually get here we 'll move things around this , as we need to , but so you ca n't absolutely count on it . phd d: ok . professor b: but but , uh phd d: yeah . phd a: are we meeting in here probably or ? ok . professor b: yeah . that was my thought . phd a: yeah . professor b: i think this is phd f: are we recording it ? phd a: we wo n't have enough microphones , professor b: phd a: but professor b: u no . i i had n't in intended to . phd a: there 's no way . professor b: we won we wan na i mean , they 're there 's gon na be , uh , jeff , katrin , mari and two students . phd f: ok . professor b: so there 's five from there . grad e: and brian . professor b: and brian 's coming , phd f: but you know th professor b: so that 's six . grad e: and plus all of us . phd f: mm - hmm . professor b: uh phd f: can use the oprah mike . phd a: depends how fast you can throw it . grad e: it seems like too many too much coming and going . phd a: it 's just yeah . phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: we do n't even have enough channel professor b: well phd f: because it would be a different kind of meeting , phd d: yeah . phd f: that 's what i 'm professor b: well phd f: but phd h: yeah . professor b: i had n't really thought of it , phd f: maybe just maybe not the whole day professor b: but phd f: but just , you know , maybe some i mean , professor b: maybe part of it . phd f: part of it ? professor b: maybe part of it . grad e: make everyone read digits . professor b: at the same time . phd a: at the same time . grad e: at the same time . phd f: please . phd h: professor b: yeah . phd a: we c professor b: i do n't know . phd a: that 's their initiation into our professor b: any phd a: w grad e: into our our our cult . phd a: yeah , our yeah , our phd f: maybe the sections that are not right afte you know , after lunch when everybody 's still munching and phd a: so can you send out a schedule once you know it , jus ? professor b: ok . well phd a: is is there a r ? professor b: ok . yeah . i guess i sent it around a little bit . phd a: there 's a res is it changed now , or ? professor b: but i had n't heard back from mari after i i u u uh , brought up the point abou about andreas 's schedule . so , um , maybe when i get back there 'll be some some mail from her . phd a: ok . professor b: so , i 'll make a postdoc c: i 'm looking forward to seeing your representation . that 'd be , uh phd a: and w we should get the two meetings from y postdoc c: i 'd like to see that . yeah . phd a: i mean , i know about the first meeting , um , but the other one that you did , the nsa one , which we had n't done cuz we were n't running recognition on it , because the non - native speaker postdoc c: mm - hmm . phd a: there were five non - native speakers . postdoc c: mm - hmm . i see . mm - hmm . phd a: but , it would be useful for the to see what we get with that one . so . postdoc c: great . ok . it 's , uh , two thousand eleven twenty - one one thousand . phd a: yeah , three . right . so postdoc c: great . i sent email when i finished the that one . phd a: n s a three , i think . postdoc c: that was sort of son yeah , that 's right . that 's right . that 's much simpler . phd a: i do n't know what they said but i know the number . professor b: th - that part 's definitely gon na confuse somebody who looks at these later . phd f: right . professor b: i mean , this is we we 're recording secret nsa meetings ? phd f: um . not the professor b: i mean , it 's phd f: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . not that nsa . phd f: uh . the th the phd a: they are hard to understand . professor b: it 's network services and applications . phd f: wait . phd a: they 're very , uh , out there . phd f: the phd a: i have no idea what they 're talking about . professor b: yeah . phd f: the , um th the other good thing about the alignments is that , um , it 's not always the machine 's fault if it does n't work . so , you can actually find , um , phd a: it 's the person 's fault . phd f: problem uh , proble phd a: it 's morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find professor b: it 's always morgan 's fault . phd f: you can find , uh , problems with with the transcripts , um , you know , grad e: oh . phd a: yeah . phd f: and go back and fix them . phd a: tha - there are some cases like where the the wrong speaker uh , these ca not a lot , but where the the wrong person the the speech is addre attached to the wrong speaker phd f: but phd a: and you can tell that when you run it . or at least you can get clues to it . postdoc c: interesting . phd a: so these are from the early transcriptions that people did on the mixed signals , like what you have . postdoc c: i guess it does w mm - hmm . it also raises the possibility of , um , using that kind of representation i mean , i do n't know , this 'd be something we 'd wan na check , { comment } but maybe using that representation for data entry and then displaying it on the channelized , uh , representation , cuz it i think that the i mean , my my preference in terms of , like , looking at the data is to see it in this kind of musical score format . phd a: mm - hmm . postdoc c: and also , s you know , sue 's preference as well . phd a: yeah , if you can get it to postdoc c: and and but , i mean , this if this is a better interface for making these kinds of , uh , you know , lo clos local changes , then that 'd be fine , too . i do n't i have no idea . i think this is something that would need to be checked . yeah . professor b: ok . th - the other thing i had actually was , i i did n't realize this till today , but , uh , this is , uh , jose 's last day . grad e: yeah . phd h: is my last my last day . phd a: oh ! postdoc c: oh . phd f: oh ! grad e: you 're not gon na be here tomorrow ? phd h: my my last meeting about meetings . grad e: oh , that 's right . tomorrow phd h: yeah . phd d: the last meeting meeting ? phd h: because , eh , i leave , eh , the next sunday . grad e: it 's off . phd a: oh . phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: i will come back to home to spain . professor b: yeah . phd a: oh . professor b: i d so i i jus phd f: mm - hmm . phd h: and i i would like to to to say thank you very much , eh , to all people in the group and at icsi , phd f: mm - hmm . grad e: yeah . it was good having you . phd f: mmm . phd a: yeah . phd h: because i i enjoyed @ @ very much , phd f: mmm . phd h: uh . and i 'm sorry by the result of overlapping , because , eh , i have n't good results , eh , yet but , eh , i i pretend { comment } to to continuing out to spain , eh , during the the following months , professor b: uh - huh . phd h: eh , because i have , eh , another ideas but , eh , i have n't enough time to to with six months it 's not enough to to to research , grad e: yep . professor b: yeah . phd h: eh , and e i i mean , if , eh , the topic is , eh , so difficult , uh , in my opinion , there is n't professor b: yeah . maybe somebody else will come along and will be , uh , interested in working on it and could start off from where you are also , you know . they 'd make use of of what you 've done . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . but , eh , i i will try to recommend , eh , at , eh , the spanish government but , eh , the following @ @ scholarship , eh , eh , eh , will be here more time , because eh , i in my opinion is is better , eh , for us to to spend more time here and to work more time i i in a topic . professor b: yeah , it 's a very short time . phd h: no ? but , uh professor b: yeah . yeah . grad e: yeah , six months is hard . phd h: yeah . it is . grad e: i think a year is a lot better . phd h: yeah . professor b: yeah . phd h: it 's difficult . you e you have , eh you are lucky , and you you find a solution { comment } in in in some few tim uh , months , eh ? ok . but , eh , i think it 's not , eh , common . but , eh , anyway , thank you . thank you very much . eh , i i bring the chocolate , eh , to to tear , uh , with with you , phd a: oh . postdoc c: ah . phd f: mmm . postdoc c: nice . phd h: uh . i i hope if you need , eh , something , eh , from us in the future , i i will be at spain , to you help , uh . professor b: well . grad e: great . postdoc c: great . phd a: right . professor b: thank you , jose . postdoc c: thank you . phd h: and , thank you very much . phd f: have a good trip . professor b: yeah . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: keep in touch . phd h: thank you . professor b: yeah . ok . i guess , uh , unless somebody has something else , we 'll read read our digits grad e: digits ? professor b: and we 'll get our phd d: uh . professor b: get our last bit of , uh , jose 's jose jose 's digit phd d: oops . grad e: are we gon na do them simultaneously or ? phd h: you eh professor b: uh , i 'm sorry ? phd h: ye - ye you prefer , eh , to eat , eh , chocolate , eh , at the coffee break , eh , at the ? or you prefer now , before after ? postdoc c: well , we have a time phd f: no , we prefer to keep it for ourselves . phd d: during postdoc c: well , we have a s a time time constraint . phd f: yeah , yeah . phd d: during digits . professor b: so keep it away from that end of the table . postdoc c: yeah . phd f: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd a: why is it that i can read your mind ? postdoc c: yeah . grad e: well , we 've got ta wait until after di after we take the mikes off . phd d: no , no . grad e: so are we gon na do digits simultaneously phd a: you this is our reward if we do our digi professor b: well ? yeah . postdoc c: ok . phd d: yeah . grad e: or what ? phd d: simultaneous digit chocolate task . phd h: i i think , eh , it 's enough , eh , for more peopl for more people after . professor b: we 're gon na we 're gon na do digits at the same phd a: oh . phd f: mmm ! postdoc c: that 's nice . phd h: but , eh phd f: mm - hmm . phd a: oh , thanks , jose . professor b: um . postdoc c: wow . phd h: to andreas , the idea is is good . s to eat here . professor b: well phd f: mmm . postdoc c: wow . very nice . phd f: oh . phd a: oh , wow . professor b: tha - that 's that looks great . phd f: oh , yeah . th - it does n't it wo n't leave this room . professor b: alright , so in the interest of getting to the phd a: we could do digits while other people eat . phd d: yeah . phd a: so it 's background crunching . phd d: yeah . phd h: yeah . phd f: mmm . phd a: we do n't have background chewing . postdoc c: nice . phd h: is , eh , a another acoustic event . phd d: background crunch . yeah . phd a: no , we do n't have any data with background eating . phd f: mmm . phd d: yeah . phd a: i 'm serious . you professor b: she 's she 's serious . phd a: i am serious . grad e: it 's just the rest of the digits the rest of the digits are very clean , professor b: she is serious . phd f: mmm . phd a: well ? phd h: are you ? oh , they 're clean . phd d: yeah ! grad e: um , without a lot of background noise , phd a: and it you have to write down , like , while y what you 're what ch chocolate you 're eating grad e: so i 'm just not sure phd a: cuz they might make different sounds , like n nuts chocolate with nuts , chocolate without nuts . postdoc c: oh . professor b: um phd d: crunchy frogs . phd f: chocolate adaptation . professor b: actually actually kind of careful cuz i have a strong allergy to nuts , so i have to sort of figure out one without th phd a: that w oh , yeah , they they might . professor b: it 's hard to hard to say . phd a: maybe those ? they 're so i do n't know . professor b: i do n't know . um phd a: this is you know , this is a different kind of speech , professor b: well phd h: take take several . phd a: looking at chocolates , deciding phd f: mmm . phd a: you know , it 's another style . professor b: yeah . i may i may hold off . phd f: mmm . professor b: but if i was eh , but maybe i 'll get some later . thanks . phd f: mmm . professor b: well well , why do n't we ? he he 's worried about a ticket . why do n't we do a simultaneous one ? phd a: ok . professor b: simultaneous one ? postdoc c: ok . grad e: ok . phd f: mmm . phd a: and you laughed at me , too , f the first time i said that . professor b: ok . grad e: remember to read the transcript number , please . phd f: right . phd h: ok . professor b: i have to what ? phd d: oops . phd h: yeah . phd a: you laughed at me , too , the first time i sa said professor b: i did , phd a: you really should n't , uh , te professor b: and now i love it so much . grad e: ok , everyone ready ? phd a: you have to sort of , um jose , if you have n't done this , you have to plug your ears while you 're t talking professor b: w wait wait a minute wait a minute . w we want we want phd a: so that you do n't get confused , i guess . professor b: we want it synchronized . phd a: yeah . oh , you 've done this one before ? postdoc c: hey , you 've done this before . have n't you ? phd h: yeah . phd d: that 's phd a: together ? postdoc c: you 've read digits together with us , have n't you i mean , at the same time ? phd a: i 'm not we we oh , and you have n't done this either . professor b: ok . postdoc c: oh , you have n't ! phd h: no . postdoc c: oh , ok . phd d: oh , yeah . phd a: i the first time is traumatic , professor b: we phd a: but professor b: y yeah , bu postdoc c: oh , and the groupings are important , phd h: mmm . postdoc c: so yo you 're supposed to pause between the groupings . phd h: the grouping . professor b: yeah . phd h: yeah . professor b: ok . so , uh phd f: you mean that the the grouping is supposed to be synchronized ? professor b: no , no . postdoc c: no . grad e: yeah , sure . phd f: no ? phd a: that 'd be good . professor b: synchronized digits . postdoc c: no . phd f: no ? phd a: we - we 'll give everybody the same sheet phd f: it 's like a like a greek like a greek choir ? phd a: but they say different phd f: you know ? professor b: yes . grad e: hey , what a good idea . phd f: like grad e: we could do the same sheet for everyone . phd f: yeah . grad e: have them all read them at once . phd a: well , different digits phd d: eh phd a: but same groupings . grad e: or or just same digits . phd a: so they would all be yeah . postdoc c: yeah . that 'd be good . grad e: see if anyone notices . professor b: there 's so many possibilities . postdoc c: and then then we can sing them next time . professor b: uh . ok , why do n't we go ? uh , one two three go ! postdoc c: ok . mmm ! professor b: and andreas has the last word . grad e: did you read it twice or what ? phd a: he 's try no , he 's trying to get good recognition performance . postdoc c: he had the h phd h: yeah . postdoc c: he had the the long form . phd h: yeah . grad e: and we 're off . phd f: no .

the recognizer performed well on time-aligned segments labelled as 'non-overlap ' ( i.e . one person talking ) , while segments labelled as 'overlap ' ( i.e . multiple speakers talking at the same time ) yielded poor results

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

the meeting focused on the cost and design implication of including the wheel , the best way to include the light , ensuring that buttons are well-placed , and choosing a fashionable fruit as the remote 's design . project manager reiterated that several decisions , like not having an lcd , having a wheel , and including a lighting feature , have been made in the previous meeting . then , industrial designer highlighted that the wheel was expensive , though , likely still within the budget . user interface led some discussion about placing the buttons in a way that minimizes strain for the user . finally , marketing informed the group that fruits and vegetables were the upcoming fashion trend . the group decided that a banana would be a good option for the design and discussed how existing priorities could be adapted to a curved design .

summarize the discussion about functional features to include in the remote . </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

industrial designer informed the team that the standard wheel is fifty times more expensive than a push button , so it might be hard to incorporate it into the design . project manager was insistent that the wheel is included , however . then , the team discussed whether to include a motion activated light or continuous light .

what did industrial design think about functional features to include in the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

industrial designer thought that the wheel would be too expensive , especially considering that the remote casing would be costly . in industrial designer 's opinion , the backlight on the push buttons added enough novelty that the wheel would not be necessary . industrial design thought that having a motion activated backlight would be useful , as opposed to a continuous one . the motion sensor was not too expensive , so it would n't be a costly addition .

what did user interface think about functional features to include in the remote ? </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

user interface was concerned with voice activation and the light . the manufacturing division of the company already had a voice chip that they could adopt . user interface thought that the light should be continuous since that would make the remote easier to find and that the cost of the motion sensor could be higher than expected .

summarize the discussion about choosing a stylish fruit for remote design . </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

marketing introduced market research that suggested the best remote design would be spongy and take the form of a fruit or vegetable . the initial contenders for the remote shape were banana , apple , and pear . banana won because of its colour and easily identifiable shape .

what did marketing think about choosing a stylish fruit for remote design ? </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

marketing believed that the trend of fruits and vegetables that fashion watchers have detected in milan and paris is a good indication of what kind of style the remote should have . it could make for a fancy and technologically innovative device . marketing thought that the pear would make a good shape because it 's easy to hold and that the remote should be spongy .

what did project manager think about choosing a stylish fruit for remote design ? </s> project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so we are here for the concept design meeting . so , we will first start by summarizing the mm the previous meeting and the decision we 've taken . uh i will take notes during this meeting so uh that you can uh look at my uh folder to see the summary of this meeting afterwards . so each of you will uh show us the various investigation they 've done during uh previous uh hours . we 'll then t take decision in concert and then uh uh we will uh define the nest next task , to have to be done before the next meeting . so , last time we decided to have a simple interface . we also decided to have a wheel to change channel previous channel button . channel digit uh buttons should be uh protected by plastic cover or something for the remote control to look very simple . we have also button for volume , and to switch on off the tv . we have also uh the lightening feature for the remote control to be easy to find , and for fast development and low cost we have decided to have no lcd no voice features . so now uh we will have three presentations . so the conceptual specification by industrial designer , the specification of the u_i_ by or u_i_ user interface: abdul al-hasred is my name . project manager: okay . and uh the last point is uh trend watching by market expert . so maybe we can start with uh industrial design . so this is the presentation . industrial designer: uh , i_d_ you want ? project manager: maybe i can switch slide uh on your request . industrial designer: yeah . i only v have three slides , so . i just look at the mm um just this . on some web pages to find some documentation project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and i think a remote control is , as i s mentioned previously , you just have a a very simple chip and the mm the user interface is just done usually by push button and in our case we are using a um a wheel control . so uh uh i was looking basically for that chip , which is uh very very standard , and uh i just looked for the wheel sensor and the standard push button . and um yeah we can change directly . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: in fact i have the number of that element which is very standard for remote control . the push button are usually extremely cheap , but i just have one problem and this is related with the wheel sensor , which seems to be quite expensive . project manager: okay . user interface: mm-hmm . industrial designer: and i think we if we could just talk about that if we really need a wheel sensor or if we can not if if we could combine something with the push button . project manager: okay . industrial designer: uh a wheel sensor is fifty time the price of a a a push button . user interface: yeah . project manager: but is it a significant price on the whole remote control ? user interface: mm . project manager: because we can afford up to twelve euros for the price of the remote control . industrial designer: yeah . yeah project manager: so will will will this with uh including all possible things , so buttons , wheel and the chip , be uh lower than twelve euros to produce ? industrial designer: i i th but i do n't think that uh we should we should talk about uh the design of the box also which needs some money . user interface: yeah . project manager: okay user interface: also have to say industrial designer: but user interface: did you receive the email about the voice recognition ? industrial designer: um that 's all user interface: no ? project manager: you received something industrial designer: yeah . i have n't chec user interface: yeah . you we uh an email from the manufacturing division that they have basically a voice recognition chip already developed . project manager: hmm . user interface: says yeah . it says that ri right now they just use it to uh to record uh answers to particular questions . but i guess it could be project manager: and could it be adapted ? user interface: i guess it 's possible . i mean instead of recording the answers you can just uh record uh something simpler like a command . project manager: okay and there can uh recognize some commands and stuff ? user interface: yeah you reco recognize commands and you can record new commands and stuff , so if they already have it as uh as a chip project manager: okay . yeah . user interface: then we we could use it . project manager: okay maybe we can just uh listen to this presentation and then take decision later on according to those news . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: okay . industrial designer: yeah but i think it 's yeah sorry , i have n't written my personal references . um the i i just want to mention the the problem of the the r wheels sensor which is much more expensive than any push button , project manager: okay . industrial designer: and if we could reduce that . we we have already some good things uh with um um with the backlight of the push button . user interface: mm-hmm . i have a question about that actually . um , what is the purpose of the light ? industrial designer: just to to make something which is uh slightly more design that uh a squarey box with a rubber user interface: is project manager: you can easily find the button in the dark or so ? user interface: but but in th in the dark uh yeah but is going to be always turned on , the light ? project manager: it will be turned on when the when the user move the remote control i think , no ? user interface: but if you move it then you have it , you do n't need to find it . project manager: hmm . user interface: you can see the buttons better , of course . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: yeah . project manager: yeah . true . industrial designer: yeah . actually . user interface: but if you move it then you have to have some sensor to when you move it to detect your movement . industrial designer: as soon as you thought to move the the remote control you have the light . user interface: yeah , but you need another sensor for that , right ? industrial designer: yeah . again . user interface: yeah no it 's too expensive . industrial designer: i do n't think that this is really expensive , but at the end this is plenty of unexpen eh very cheap devices but uh the bill starts to be user interface: okay . mm . extra . yeah , okay . mm . yeah , but i expected also the wheel would be cheap but you tell me that it is very expensive so , industrial designer: first of all i was thinking to have a a continuous light user interface: yeah . industrial designer: and you w when t you you you you press the on button you have the light on your remote control , when you want to turn off your device user interface: mm . mm-hmm . project manager: but it can be uh battery consuming , no ? to have the light always on ? industrial designer: yeah , a little bit . a little bit . user interface: mm . project manager: well we will discuss that after maybe industrial designer: yeah . user interface: okay project manager: the other presentations . user interface: . so uh my one , it uh should be in the shared folder . project manager: yeah . user interface: so . it was last time i saw it . project manager: and it is . user interface: okay . so , project manager: okay . user interface: just move to the next slide . so basically want very simple , right ? that 's the major idea , as simple as possible . project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: so i just look at some current designs uh on the web , of usually more complicated remote controls . and let 's look at two of them because uh th even though they have many buttons they look quite simple . and in our case we just uh reject the buttons what we do n't need and it become even simpler . project manager: yeah . user interface: um . so . project manager: and also does it uh fit well in hand ? because it was uh th your wrist problem with the usage . user interface: yeah . well this these uh these remotes are quite big , so go to the next page , so . we have all these buttons as you can see , but most of them , we just need the ones in the middle . project manager: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so , from the bottom or whatever is there , uh the uh the numbers and then the top , uh until the ten also , this middle part , project manager: yeah . yeah . user interface: and on the left one is exactly the same . so it 's basically more or less how we would like it , with a big volume control , big channel control , and mute and power , yeah ? project manager: yeah . user interface: these are the basic thing . project manager: so it 's only the central part . user interface: so basically , w software we will build will look more or less the same as these two . project manager: yeah . with a maybe a more ergonomic design on on the bottom part . user interface: yeah , if you have , for example i think that the volume and the buttons that are there on the top are not very easy to reach with your thumb . project manager: yeah . user interface: it could be on the right side , for example . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . because we do n't have these input buttons and this other stuff that they have . and i think that the plastic cover is not very good uh idea because project manager: okay . user interface: you open it , it can break , you ca you can do various things . project manager: okay . s user interface: uh you just need to put the channel numbers somewhere a bit out of the way . project manager: okay . will be down or user interface: so that they 're separate a bit , project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . uh and it 's easy to press the other the big buttons , but uh , it 's not that difficult to press the the channel buttons either . mm . yeah , i think that if you put the cover it will be even more difficult for the user . project manager: okay . user interface: alright , you wo n't yeah . usually what i have noticed that people put the plastic cover on things that you normally do n't mess with , like buttons for t uh tuning the channels and stuff like that . project manager: okay . user interface: yeah . that you want to protect a bit . and i think it 's uh it 's reasonable . project manager: okay . user interface: so , i do n't think yeah , this is just the the wheel . project manager: mm . user interface: we could use the some wheels can be pushed down , could use the push down of the wheel for the record if we want . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: uh so we could just basically use one just wheel and uh user could use just the wheel to do everything with the channels in that case . project manager: yeah . maybe the wheel will be a good advantage over our competitors . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: because otherwise it 's pretty standard apart the fact that it 's very simple . so maybe it 's worse to uh to have more expense on that 's that aspect . industrial designer: to s mm-hmm . user interface: yeah , i guess the market researcher will tell us all about that . project manager: okay . so we can move to the is there any question ? for designer of user interface ? or we can move to the next part , maybe , and discuss afterwards ? okay . marketing: okay , i can go ? project manager: yeah . marketing: can i ? so now the recent investigation we we have done fo of the remote control um . so , the most important aspect for remote controls is to be fancy look and feel and not current functional look and feel . and um the second aspect is uh that the remote control should be uh technological innovative . project manager: okay . marketing: and the third most important aspect is to to is that the co remote control should be easy to use . so , are things we are we have uh speak about before . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: yeah . marketing: yeah . and um so you you can go project manager: yeah . marketing: after . and there is a fashion watchers in paris and milan that have detected the following trends , uh fruits and vegetables will be the most important theme for clothes , shoes , and furnitures . so , maybe if our remote control have to be a fruit form or vegetable form project manager: okay . marketing: something like that , or industrial designer: i support an apple . marketing: and the mm the material is expected to be spongy . project manager: marketing: uh i do n't know which material can be spongy , project manager: yeah . marketing: and if you project manager: this is good also for user interface: well , wou wou i think we can certainly just put the electronics in a spongy thing , industrial designer: yeah . user interface: it it would work , right ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: yeah . marketing: mm-hmm . project manager: i think it is good also f to have a spongy material , yeah . user interface: you can throw it to the television . project manager: yeah , because it 's robust . marketing: okay industrial designer: yeah . me too . marketing: it 's robust , yeah . user interface: hey that 's a cool one . we could say that if you throw it , you have a sensor , and you throw it and hits the television and turns it off . project manager: marketing: user interface: when it d uh takes a shock . project manager: yeah marketing: not good . project manager: uh sorry ? industrial designer: ah it 's okay . i know that they do that for alarm clock also . user interface: yeah . marketing: an and and uh this uh you can yeah you can say that . you ca uh you can go uh before project manager: no . yeah . before ? marketing: , before , yes . and you know here the more iz important aspect is the fancy look and feel , after is uh technological innovative , and after the easy to use . project manager: yeah . yeah . yeah . i think it 's innovative to use the mm the wheel because i think no one else has . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah that 's why project manager: has it ? marketing: yeah that 's why i think we have to keep that if it 's possible . project manager: yeah . i think it 's it makes it both easy and both innos innovative . industrial designer: mm-hmm . marketing: innovative . mm . project manager: so i think it 's a good aspect and it should be kept . user interface: how do we make it look cool is the question . project manager: cool , fancy ? user interface: yeah . project manager: we have to make it l look like a fruit or vegetable . user interface: marketing: yeah . project manager: maybe uh um a colour that remember some fruit uh , things like that . industrial designer: what about um marketing: mm . oh , colour , yeah . user interface: well the obvious thing is a banana , i guess . marketing: oh i i project manager: maybe yeah . industrial designer: marketing: i thought about a a pear , for example . you know the pear , is like that and it 's it 's easy to to have in in hand project manager: yeah , and it 's ergonomic as well . marketing: and uh yeah . project manager: a pear . user interface: the banana is also ergonomic . marketing: project manager: yeah . maybe pear yeah or something like that . marketing: or a fruit like that . i dunno . project manager: yeah . we can discuss that uh . d d is is there anything you want to add ? user interface: is there any fruit that is spongy ? marketing: project manager: i do n't think so . i think we we can have like yeah a pear is good , fit well , or banana as you told . user interface: yeah . marketing: project manager: something like that . industrial designer: and for maybe look and feel , what about a a piece of ice , with blue l_e_d_ inside ? project manager: but that 's not in the trend . . user interface: you can make it um marketing: project manager: the trend is spongy , and vegetable fruits . industrial designer: yeah . yeah . user interface: it 's not hard , the metal . marketing: project manager: i think p spongy is good because it it will be robust as well . industrial designer: yeah . marketing: user interface: plastic . industrial designer: yep . project manager: so , i think we can keep the wheel because it 's uh easy , it 's innovative , even if the cost is a bit higher , industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and we also have to find a , so , a fruit like pear or banana wit uh any others idea you have . what kind of fr fruit would you like to to control your tv with ? marketing: user interface: mm . project manager: odi industrial designer: banana i think , it 's a nice idea . project manager: banana is also yellow so you you ca n't lost your remote control then . industrial designer: because but marketing: yeah . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: you y you do n't use the banana when the banana is curving like that , user interface: two of the button , yeah . industrial designer: but when the banana is curving like that , with the wheel on the top and to control , user interface: yeah . yeah . industrial designer: and here you have a a push button to marketing: but you do n't have project manager: i think it 's a good idea , yeah . user interface: yeah so you can just have uh just have this curve , yeah , and you move uh your hand here to press the buttons and then you move uh on the other side . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: yeah . user interface: so you can have it on on two sides and it 'll be cool , project manager: yeah . user interface: no ? project manager: i think it 's a good design and it 's innovative as well then . maybe we can keep the banana . and it will be very easy to find . industrial designer: and everybody knows what is a banana . user interface: you can put also vibrator inside . industrial designer: basically . marketing: yeah . industrial designer: if you if you start with uh fancy fruits and fra s and tha user interface: ah-ha . you can also take into account the fact that the banana fits with the colour scheme of our company . project manager: yeah . industrial designer: oh , yeah marketing: project manager: yeah it 's really uh really a good point . user interface: yeah . i hope the students of management die , marketing: user interface: but anyway . marketing: user interface: now who are recording this meeting ? project manager: i think it so one second . so we have to take some decision on this aspect . so , uh so for marketing: project manager: sorry , for uh component , so industrial designer: so project manager: we have to think about those aspects , sorry . industrial designer: so we will just use a a standard battery ? project manager: yeah . industrial designer: and uh the chip we chip imprint we know exactly which one we are going to use . uh what do you mean by case ? project manager: i think it 's the box that should be spongy , banana 's shape . industrial designer: yeah . uh i mean for me if we use a a spongy banana case , does n't matter . project manager: industrial designer: i just want to have so something to prin to to fix my my components onto that box , and that 's it . user interface: the only th yeah . y yeah that can be in inside th in the structure . industrial designer: yeah yeah . yeah . user interface: but uh the thing is that the buttons and the wheel have to be industrial designer: spongy also . user interface: i mean if it 's spongy then the buttons and the wheel have to i mean if it 's spongy then it 's going to move , right ? so , it 's going to be bend a lot . project manager: but industrial designer: oh no i think it 's possible . user interface: so if we try to push the buttons , it project manager: no the button would be user interface: you think it 's possible ? project manager: in fact it it should be something odd shaped , with a spongy cover . industrial designer: yeah . yeah user interface: okay . industrial designer: . this is uh like the user interface: yeah . project manager: okay odd shape with spongy cover . and standard battery okay , a chip imprint , there 's no specific problem . so we agree to put the wheel industrial designer: mm-hmm . wheel on the top . button , where do we want some buttons ? user interface: well , usually hold 'kay , we want it to be good also for the left-hand users , right ? industrial designer: yeah . project manager: so it have to it has to be symmetrical . user interface: uh yeah but okay . sa let 's say that th o it has to be basically you can only take two sides , one on ths this side where is the thumb and the other side where there is uh yeah also the thumb . industrial designer: yep . project manager: industrial designer: yep . user interface: basically . or you could use use this one , but i do n't know if it 's very comfortable , to use this one for the wheel . project manager: yeah maybe the thumb is more comfortable . user interface: this for the wheel and then this for the buttons ? project manager: yeah i think it 's okay for both right and left . mm . user interface: should have the two sides . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: so if the left , we have the op project manager: i think you can turn it this way also . you can do both with both hands . user interface: wheel wheel buttons . project manager: i think it 's okay . user interface: yeah , the problem is if you have buttons and wheel then when you turn it around , the buttons are on the other side . so you can not see them . project manager: well , you you will get used to it . user interface: yeah . project manager: and moreover , th the button ar are lighted so you you immediately identify the right side , because you have light on buttons . user interface: so the buttons have to be here and the wheel has to be y yeah i know , but uh if you hold with your left hand , and the wheel is here , and the buttons are here , then when you turn it around the buttons will be on the other side . project manager: yeah . no you you i think you will use it only on the right or left hand , whether you are righty or lefty . i think for lefty it 's okay . i can do this movement , and for righty as well . i think this does n't change that much . user interface: okay . project manager: yeah ? user interface: okay . maybe . yeah . project manager: so , for interface we said also that we have uh this banana shape with button on the s on the side . and and uh a wheel on the top . industrial designer: mm-hmm . user interface: yeah . project manager: so the colour is yellow . i think it 's uh we defined everything according to what we should what the decision we should take , yeah . so maybe we can um we can uh work on those aspects uh until next meeting . so have the final uh look and feel design according to the decision . and have the the user interface design and uh then evaluate the prodyuc the product . that is to say , uh check if it fit the the requirement uh given by the users , but according to uh your presentation it seems to be okay . it seems to be fancy , innovative , and easy to use . industrial designer: mm-hmm . project manager: so so to prepare the prototype i would suggest that the industrial designer and the user interface designer uh work together . that would uh industrial designer: project manager: be better , i think . industrial designer: yeah . project manager: and uh and so uh you will receive further instruction by emails , as usual . user interface: mm-hmm . project manager: so user interface: yes master . project manager: do you need to add anything ? user interface: no . project manager: you feel okay ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you feel uh free to express what you want to say ? you do n't feel too constrained ? user interface: yeah . project manager: you do n't feel free to answer this ? user interface: no . industrial designer: user interface: maybe you can make uh uh mm project manager: okay , so user interface: okay . industrial designer: thank you . project manager: see you .

project manager supported spongy material because of its robust quality and wanted to prioritize the wheel since it differentiated their remote from competitors . project manager also thought that the banana would be a good choice since it will be easy to find .

what was the focus of the meeting ? . </s> grad c: now can you give me the uh remote t ? professor d: ok , so eva , co uh could you read your numbers ? grad a: go ahead and read . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: alright . professor d: yeah , let 's get started . um hopefully nancy will come , if not , she wo n't . grad b: uh , robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every uh , it seems to have about at two minute grad c: yeah , i 've i uh it 's not that i did n't try . grad b: ok . grad c: and um i i told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just does n't obey my commands . grad b: ok . grad c: it has a mind . grad b: got it . grad c: but i i just you know , sort of keep on wiggling . undergrad e: wants to conserve . grad b: yeah , ok . grad c: but uh we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it does n't happen . we 'll see . should we plunge right into it ? professor d: yeah . grad c: so , would you like to professor d: i think so . grad c: so what i 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this side . commented and what they 're about and sort of the properties we may um give them . and here are the uh tasks to be implemented via our data collection . so all of these tasks the reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . and analogously for example , here we have our eva um intention . and these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and that may or may not be a problem . we can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so trying to im um implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever . professor d: right , right . grad c: but i think that might be overdoing it a little . professor d: so yeah . so let me pop up a level . and uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . so what we 're gon na do today is two related things . uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . and decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gon na only have to choose parameters , but you know , a fairly large set of parameters . so to do that , we need to do two things . one of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . but we are n't gon na do the probability stuff today . technical stuff we 'll do uh another day . probably next week . but we are gon na worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . and we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with fey on what there should be in the dialogues . so one of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh in here , and have them actually record like this . uh record dialogues more or less . and depending on what fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things . grad c: well how people phrase different intentions more or less , professor d: so fo - v yeah people with the phrase them grad c: huh ? professor d: and so uh for , you know , keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . so what robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh things that that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . so the uh uh on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . so if if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . and he has a handout . grad c: yeah . maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates . professor d: yeah . grad c: um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . any comments i can can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly . undergrad e: m yes . grad c: let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all . grad a: ok . grad c: or have you heard about it ? grad a: not that much you did n't . grad c: no . ok . we were gon na put this in front of people . they give us some information on themselves . grad a: ok . grad c: then then they will read uh a task where lots of german words are sort of thrown in between . and um and they have to read isolated proper names and these change professor d: s i do n't see a release grad c: no , this is not the release form . this is the speaker information form . professor d: got it . ok , fine . ok . grad c: the release form is over there in that box . professor d: alright , fair enough . grad c: and um and then they gon na have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . they they pick a couple , say three uh uh six as a matter of fact . six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in heidelberg or traveling someplace and um and they have a map . grad b: hmm . grad c: like this . very sketchy , simplified map . and they can take notes on that map . and then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything . grad a: ok . grad c: and um grad b: this is a fictional system obviously , grad c: the comp yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you , grad b: huh . grad c: that 's fey . undergrad e: i 've i understand everything . professor d: and she does know everything . undergrad e: yes i do . grad c: and she has a way of making this machine talk . so she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . so if you ask `` how do i get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here `` in order to get to the castle you do `` grad b: yeah . grad c: ok ? and um and then after three tasks the system breaks down . and fey comes on the phone as a human operator . and says `` sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . `` and we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human . grad a: ok . huh . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: that 's the data collection . and um and fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? something ? undergrad e: yeah . grad c: and um and they 're r ready uh to roll . undergrad e: and more and more every day . grad c: and we 're gon na start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ? undergrad e: tomorrow , well we do n't know for sure . because we do n't know whether that person is coming or not , grad c: ok . around four - ish . undergrad e: but grad c: and um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . um behind our backs . but professor d: well , there are these uh uh oh , i see , we have to yeah , it 's tricky . we 'll let 's let we 'll do that off - line , ok . grad c: yeah , but i i i it 's happening . david and and jane and and lila are working on that as we speak . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . that was the uh the data collection in a nutshell . and um i can report a so i did this but i also tried to do this so if i click on here , is n't this wonderful ? we get to the uh uh belief - net just focusing on on the g go - there node . uh analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and what w what happened is that um design - wise i 'd sort of n noticed that we can we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub go - there user go - there situation nodes . so i came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . how much will he is he willing to spend ? or can spend . being the same at this just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is you know charging tons of dollars for admission or its gon na g cost a lot of t e whatever . twenty - two million to fly to international space station , you know . just not all people can do that . professor d: right . grad c: so , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these uh this this intermediate level um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have um then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um i can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - s everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - u , and whatever we specify for the so - called `` keith node `` , or the discourse , what comes from the um parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the d and the ontology to the sub - o node . and um one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does n't make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . but this makes the design thing fairly simple . and um now all w that 's left to do then is the cpg 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . and um ok . and once um bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gon na end up doing . you get involved in that process too . and um and for now uh the the question is `` how much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` so um , one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` visit the zoo tomorrow `` , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now but later . professor d: right . yeah . yeah , so let 's s uh s see i th i think that from one point of view , uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d that , um in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so i th i it seems to me that we ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . and um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . um are all big - ish things that um you know have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine . grad c: hmm . hmm , hmm . yeah the the reason why we did it that way , as a as a reminder , is uh no person is gon na do all of them . professor d: and grad c: they 're just gon na select u um , according to their preferences . professor d: yeah , yeah . grad c: `` ah , yeah , i usually visit zoos , or i usually visit castles , or i usually `` and then you pick that one . professor d: right , no no , but but s th point is to to y to build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing . undergrad e: they 're redundant . professor d: t to build a system that um had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . and the speech people , for example , are gon na do better if they if things come up uh repeatedly . now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . so , all i 'm saying is i th there 's there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and i think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know and each person is only gon na do it once , so you do n't have to worry about them being bored , so if if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle . now of course you have this i guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they would n't talk about with a university and stuff , um but i guess i 'm i uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . you know , less variation . but i do n't know what other people think about this in terms of grad b: so i do n't exactly understand professor d: uh grad b: like i i i guess we 're trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? but who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ? professor d: oh , well , uh th i think there are two places where it comes up . one is uh in the th these people who are gon na take this and and try to do speech with it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: uh lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things . grad b: ok . professor d: that 's one . grad b: so we would rather just ask uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places . professor d: bigger y yeah thi well this is a question for grad b: and that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . so this is a question for you , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and , you know , if we if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . so , um grad c: yeah , the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities . um but i think y i i got the point and i think i like it . we can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion . so , `` go to place `` and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` yeah this is on that `` go to big - ish place `` , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: this is what i would do . `` and then we have the `` fix `` thing , and then maybe `` do something the other day `` thing , so . my question is i guess , to some extent , we should y we just have to try it out and see if it works . it would be challenging , in in a sense , to try to make it so so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of ok , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days . professor d: well yeah . grad c: so they make these decisions , professor d: well i think th th grad c: `` can i go there tomorrow ? `` professor d: yeah . grad c: or you know influences grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . well , i think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . so , the uh system could say , `` well , uh we 'd like to to set up your program for two days in heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . so there th i i in i mean in i th i i 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . yeah , but i think this is part of the instructor 's job . and that can be done , sort of to say , `` ok now we 've picked these six tasks . `` `` now you have you can call the system and you have two days . `` professor d: i 'm sorry . grad c: and th w professor d: no , we have to help we have to decide . fey will p carry out whatever we decide . but we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . that 's what we 're gon na talk about t yeah . grad c: yep , yep . phd f: but these are two different scenarios entirely . i mean , one is a planner the other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot grad c: yeah , but th the i do n't i 'm not really interested in sort of `` phase planning `` capabilities . but it 's more the how do people phrase these planning requests ? so are we gon na masquerade the system as this as you said simple response system , `` i have one question i get one response `` , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . and a i w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references . professor d: well , so keith , what do you think ? grad b: well , um it seems that yeah , i mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . i mean you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic more interesting linguistic stuff . but i mean i 'm i 'm not really sure uh , because i do n't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet . grad c: i mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh is was faced with exactly this kind of setup . grad b: i started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing . grad c: and grad b: i thought i 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . and . grad c: oh , ok . that was the first subject . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: first one was n't very good . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: so um , i grad c: um , it is already with this it got pretty with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex . undergrad e: although grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: maybe i suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get sort of run through ten or so subjects grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and then take a breather , and see whether we wan na make it more complex or not , depending on what what sort of results we 're getting . grad b: right . yeah . it in fact , um , i am just you know today , next couple days gon na start really diving into this data . i 've basically looked at one of the files you know one of these l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and i looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , `` alright , well , let 's start here . `` um . so i have n't really gone into the , you know looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . so i do n't really right , i mean , once i start doing that i 'll have more to say about this kind of thing . professor d: ok . grad c: and y and always professor d: but well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh with the simple cases for quite a while . grad b: yeah . professor d: although , obviously th so so that sa s does suggest that uh , now , i have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant . grad b: yeah , yeah . professor d: that that it was it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing . grad b: i um i did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them . professor d: yeah . grad b: but yeah , yeah i noticed that , too . professor d: so , we we we wan na do more than that . grad c: and with this we 're getting more . no question . professor d: ok . right . so grad c: uh w do we wan na get going beyond more , which is sort of the professor d: well , ok , so let 's let 's take let 's i i think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh a batch . ok . and , uh , fey , how long is it gon na be till you have ten subjects ? couple days ? or thr f a a week ? or i do n't i do n't have a feel for th undergrad e: um i can yeah , i mean i s i think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever . professor d: well , it 's it 's up to you , i mean i j i uh e we do n't have any huge time pressure . it 's just when you have t undergrad e: how long will it be ? professor d: yeah . undergrad e: um i i would say maybe two weeks . professor d: oh , ok . so let 's do this . let 's plan next monday , ok , to have a review of what we have so far . grad c: this means audio , but professor d: and huh ? grad c: no transcriptions of course , yeah . professor d: no , we wo n't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and i do n't know if , fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . i mean we could lis uh just sit here and listen to it all . are you gon na have the audio on the web site ? ok . grad c: until we reach the gigabyte thing and david johnson s ki kills me . and we 're gon na put it on the web site . yeah . professor d: oh , we could get i mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? i mean it 's it 's not like ok . so , we 'll take care of david johnson . grad c: no , he uh , he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful , professor d: ok . undergrad e: take care of him . professor d: ok . grad c: so s professor d: alright . so we 'll buy a disk . but anyway , so , um , if you if you can think of a way to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or or something uh , make your make notes or something that that this is , you know , something worth looking at . and other than that , yeah i guess we 'll just have to uh , listen although i guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? roughly . undergrad e: well , i guess . i 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take . grad c: the reading task is a lot shorter . that was cut by fifty percent . and the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people . professor d: right . no , we do n't care about that at all . grad c: so . it 's actually like five minutes dialogue . professor d: i b my guess is it 's gon na be ten . grad c: ten minutes is long . professor d: people i understand , but people people you know uh undergrad e: it feels like a long time grad c: yeah . undergrad e: but . grad c: it feels like forever when you 're doing it , professor d: yeah . grad c: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: could be . ok . i was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and whatever . whatever it is we 'll we 'll deal with it . grad c: yeah , it 's not and it 's fun . professor d: ok , so that 'll be that 'll be um on on the web page . grad c: ok . professor d: that 's great . um but anyway yeah , so i think it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . and then if we want to uh get them to start doing uh multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and you know , any of that stuff . uh you know , `` which things would you like to do tuesday morning ? `` grad c: yeah . professor d: so yeah i th that seems pretty straight forward . undergrad e: but were you saying that grad c: i need those back by the way . grad b: ok . professor d: ok . undergrad e: yeah . grad c: that 's for professor d: i 'm sorry , fey , what ? undergrad e: that w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? professor d: that 's what i was suggesting for the first round , yeah . undergrad e: ok . grad b: so rather than having zoo and castle . undergrad e: and then , i mean , they could be alternate versions of the same if you wanted data on different constructions . professor d: they could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but uh but undergrad e: like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the professor d: you could , but i but i i i think in the short run , grad c: and no , th the per the person do n't get it . i mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - a and three tasks for part - b a professor d: right . yeah . undergrad e: well no , they could still choose . they just would n't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle . grad c: exactly . this is limiting the choices , but yeah . right . ok , sorry . but um i i think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say `` ok , this is what i would actually do . `` undergrad e: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . undergrad e: he was vicious . grad c: ok , we got ta we got ta disallow uh traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of undergrad e: i mean there they are significantly different , but . grad c: but no , they 're i mean they 're sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different undergrad e: yeah , i guess so . grad c: and , um , these are just places where you you enter um , much like here . professor d: yeah . grad c: but we can uh professor d: yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , `` attend a theater , symphony or opera `` is is a group , and `` tour the university , castle or zoo `` , grad c: mm - hmm yeah . professor d: all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` um aspect about the way you would go to them . and uh , the movie theater is probably also uh e is a `` attend `` et cetera . grad c: attend , yeah . professor d: so it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things , grad c: hmm , mm - hmm . professor d: and then , what one would expect is that that the sentence types would uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect . grad b: mm - hmm . phd f: but i mean i it seem that um there is a difference between going to see something , and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` professor d: oh , absolutely . yeah . phd f: uh @ @ function , yeah . grad c: yeah , this is where yeah th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff yeah . ok . but this is open . so since people gon na still pick something , we we 're not gon na get any significant amount of redundancy . and for reasons , we do n't want it , really , in that sense . and um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with or with a computer . and so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . we 're not gon na do much statistical stuff with it . professor d: we do n't have enough . grad c: no . but it seems like since we since we are getting towards uh subject uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a uh sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before fey t takes off to chicago . undergrad e: that means that one hundred people have to be interested . grad b: good luck . undergrad e: yeah . professor d: well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far , undergrad e: yeah . professor d: right ? undergrad e: yeah . professor d: so we yeah we do n't know how many we can get next door at the uh shelter for example . grad b: hmm . professor d: uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few . grad b: yeah . that 's right . professor d: yeah . so , alright , so let 's go let 's go back then , to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing . grad c: yep . professor d: do do people think that , you know this is is gon na um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ? grad c: okay , in terms of decision nodes ? i mean , go - there is is a yes or no . professor d: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yep . grad c: i 'm also interested in th in this `` property `` uh line here , so if you look at sorry , look at that um , timing was um i have these three . do we need a final differentiation there ? now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour . grad b: what 's this idea of `` next tour `` ? i mean grad c: it 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and you can do something immediately , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: you could sort of tag it on to that tour grad b: or ok . grad c: or you can say this is something i would do s i wan na do sometime l in my life , basically . grad b: ok . ok . so so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever , professor d: right . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel . grad b: ok . got it . professor d: i mean if you if if you wanted precise about it , uh you know , grad b: got it . professor d: uh and i think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives . grad b: sure , sure , sure . professor d: you know , `` ok , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off grad b: ok . professor d: and `` phd f: so all tours b a tour happens only within one day ? professor d: yes . grad b: ok . professor d: it phd f: so the next tour will be tomorrow ? professor d: right . for this . grad b: ok . just to be totally clear . ok . grad c: well , my visit to prague there were some nights where i never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to think . grad b: you just spend the whole time at u fleku or something , phd f: yeah . professor d: i w we will we will not ask you more . grad b: ri undergrad e: right . phd f: right . undergrad e: that 's enough . grad c: i do n't know . what is the uh the the english co uh um cognate if you want , for `` sankt nimmerlandstag `` ? grad b: keine ahnung grad c: sort of `` we 'll do it on when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen . professor d: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad c: do you have an expression ? probably you sh grad b: not that i know of actually . grad c: yeah , when hell yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over . professor d: yeah . grad c: so maybe that should be another property in there . phd f: right . professor d: yeah . yeah . undergrad e: never . professor d: no . grad c: ok . um , the reason why why do we go there in the first place ie uh it 's either uh for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . entertainment is a good one in there , i think . i agree . grad b: so , business is supposed to uh , be sort of it like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ? grad c: yep . grad b: ok . um . grad c: i mean this w this is uh an old uh johno thing . he sort of had it in there . `` who is the the tour is the person ? `` so it might be a tourist , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , or or both . grad b: yeah . yeah , i mean like for example my my father is about to travel to prague . grad c: yep . grad b: he 'll be there for two weeks . he is going to uh he 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things . grad c: yep . professor d: mmm . grad c: yep . professor d: sure . right . grad c: he would phd f: what ab what do you have in mind in terms of um socializing ? what kind of activities ? grad c: eh , just meeting people , basically . `` i want to meet someone somewhere `` , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` eva `` phd f: oh grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just want to approach it . grad b: so i mean , does this capture , like , where do you put `` exchange money `` is an errand , right ? but what about uh grad c: yep . professor d: mm - hmm grad b: so , like `` go to a movie `` is now entertainment , `` dine out `` is phd f: socializing , i guess . professor d: no , i i well , i dunno . let let well , we 'll put it somewhere , grad b: so i mean right . professor d: but but um i would say that if `` dine out `` is a special c uh if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment . grad b: yeah . professor d: and we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about `` well , you 're you know this is going over a meal time , do you wan na stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's different . that 's that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of `` en passant , `` right . grad b: right . grad c: that goes with the `` energy depletion `` function , blech . grad b: yeah . professor d: right , yeah . grad c: ok , `` endpoint `` . grad b: `` tourist needs food , badly `` professor d: right . grad c: `` endpoint `` is pretty clear . um , `` mode `` , uh , i have found three , `` drive there `` , `` walk there `` uh or `` be driven `` , which means bus , taxi , bart . professor d: ok . grad c: yeah . yep . professor d: obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system does n't have any public transport this the planner system does n't have any public transport in it yet . grad c: so this granularity would suffice , i think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation . grad b: h how much of heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? i mean in terms of the interesting bits . there 's lots of bits where you do n't really i 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so i do n't remember , but . i mean , like the sort of the tourist - y bits professor d: mm - well , grad c: everywhere . grad b: is it like professor d: you ca n't get to the philosophers ' way very well , grad b: yeah . professor d: but , i mean there are hikes that you ca n't get to , but grad b: ok . grad c: yeah . professor d: but i think other things you can , if i remember right . grad a: so is like `` biking there `` part of like `` driving there `` , grad c: yeah , um we actually biking should be should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component . grad a: or ? grad c: so . professor d: oh ! undergrad e: mmm g that 's good . grad c: um . professor d: put it in . grad c: bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic i mean is this realistic ? i mean grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , we can leave it out , i guess . grad b: yeah . grad c: we can we can sort of uh , drive grad b: i would i would lump it with `` walk `` because hills matter . grad c: yeah . grad b: right ? you know . things like that . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . skateboards right , anyway . phd f: right . professor d: scooters , grad c: yep . professor d: right ? grad c: ok , `` length `` is um , you wan na get this over with as fast as possible , professor d: alright . grad c: you wan na use some part of what of the time you have . um , they can . but we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time . professor d: ye grad b: hmm . grad c: you know , they wan na do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh you know the necessary and plus time . and um and y you know , if we feel that they wan na do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . so , stretch out that visit for that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: wow it seems like this would be really hard to guess . i mean , on the part of the system . it seems like it i mean you 're you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ? professor d: w well grad c: th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we we hand over these parameters if we make if we have a feeling that they are important . grad b: overrider professor d: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask . professor d: and grad b: ok . professor d: and par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you ca n't figure it out , then you ask . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: but hopefully you do n't ask you know , a all these things all the time . grad b: yeah . professor d: or eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking . grad b: yeah . right . yeah . grad c: and if no no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gon na ask for it . grad b: yeah . grad c: y so and i like the idea that , you know , sort of jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: if you wan na simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? and , timing , uh , uh , length would definitely be part of it , `` costs `` , `` little money , some money , lots of money `` ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: actually , maybe uh f { comment } uh so , f yeah , ok . hmm ? grad b: you could say `` some `` in there . phd f: i must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . um maybe it seems like appropriate if i go to las vegas . well but i decide k kind of how much money uh i 'm willing to lose . but a i as a tourist , i 'll just paying what 's what 's more or less is required . professor d: well , no . i think there are there 're different things where you have a ch choice , undergrad e: mmm . grad b: yeah . professor d: for example , uh this t interacts with `` do am i do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? `` grad b: dinner . professor d: or uh , you know , if if you 're going to the opera are you gon na l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery phd f: the best seat or or right . professor d: or , you know , grad b: ok . so professor d: whatever ? s so i think there are a variety of things in which um tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . another one , grad b: yeah . professor d: you know . undergrad e: right . phd f: right , that 's true . grad c: the what what my sort of sentiment is they 're well , i i once had to write a a a a charter , a carter for a a student organization . and they had wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . and i looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a and i wrote in there `` en - enough `` people have to be there . and it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people . grad b: yeah . grad c: and if you go to turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say `` how much cheese do you want ? `` and they say `` ah , enough . `` and the and the this used all over the place . because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and um so the middle part is always sort of the the golden way , right ? so you can s you can be really make it as cheap as possible , or you can say `` i want , er , you know , i do n't care `` grad b: money is no object . mm - hmm . grad c: money is no object , professor d: yeah . grad c: or you say `` i just want to spend enough `` . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount . grad b: yeah . grad c: but , then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . but well , this is my first guess , grad b: i mean y yeah . grad c: in much the same way as how how d you know should the route be ? should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: no steep inclinations ? go the normal way ? whatever that again means , er or do you does the person wan na rough it ? grad b: mm - hmm . i mean th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? you know `` i want to go there and i do n't care if it 's really hard . `` or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . `` i wan na go there and i insist on it being the hard way . `` professor d: right . grad b: right ? you know , so i assume we 're going for the first interpretation , undergrad e: right . grad b: right ? something like i 'll go th i mean i 'd li i dunno . it 's different from thing to professor d: no , i think he was going for the second one ar actually . grad b: yeah ? i i professor d: anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: absolutely . grad c: well , this is all sort of um , top of my head . grad b: yeah . grad c: no no research behind that . um `` object information `` , `` do i do i wan na know anything about that object ? `` is either true or false . and . if i care about it being open , accessible or not , i do n't think there 's any middle ground there . um , either i wan na know where it is or not , i wan na know about it 's history or not , or , um i wan na know about what it 's good for or not . maybe one could put scales in there , too . so i wan na know a l lot about it . professor d: yeah , now ob ok , i 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gon na say ? grad c: one could put scales in there . so i wan na know a lot about the history , just a bit . professor d: yeah , right well y i w if we w right . so `` object `` becomes `` entity `` , right ? grad c: yep , that 's true . professor d: yeah , but we do n't have to do it now . grad c: yep . that was the wrong shortcut anyhow . professor d: and we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or or or something very close to it is going to be uh going to be enough . and undergrad e: still wrong . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: alright , so um so i think the order of things is that um , robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . and grad c: what , well this is the part that professor d: huh ? grad c: this is the part that needs the work . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , so right , so so , um in parallel , uh three things are going to happen . uh robert and eva and bhaskara are gon na actually build a belief - net that that , um , has cpt 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . and fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gon na start thinking a about uh what constructions we want to elicit . and then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit grad b: d do you mean do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? semantically speaking , eh ? professor d: well , yes . grad b: ok . professor d: both . uh , and though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ? grad b: right . sure . professor d: and and so uh grad b: i mean from my point of view i 'm i 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know professor d: well that too , grad b: ok . professor d: but um you know if th if we in if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order . grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever , grad b: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: um w you know , whatever form they use is fine . grad b: ok . professor d: but i i think that probably we 're gon na try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we do we want them to uh do direc grad b: ok . professor d: you know , um , `` caused motion `` , i do n't know , something like that . grad b: ok . professor d: uh but , eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and i have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that . grad b: got it . yeah . uh yeah . ok . professor d: but uh grad c: well , i will tell you the german tourist data . grad b: ok . grad c: because i have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty d v grad b: ok . grad c: um if you grad b: is that roughly the equivalent of of what i 've seen in english or is it grad c: no , not at all . grad b: ok . grad c: dialogues . smartkom grad b: ok . grad c: smartkom human . wizard of oz . grad b: ok . same ok , that . got it . like what what have i got now ? i mean i have uh what what i 'm loo what i those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with fey ? grad c: a little bit of data , i grad b: is that what it is ? or ? grad c: with nothing . grad b: just talking into a box and not hearing anything back . professor d: no , no . grad c: yep . grad b: ok . grad c: yep . some data i collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when . grad b: ok . ok . grad c: nothing to write home about . grad b: ok . grad c: and um the see this this this uh ontology node is probably something that i will try to expand . once we have the full ontology api , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? and hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know or the grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: right . grad c: in terms of uh professor d: right , but we 're not expecting keith to actually build a parser . grad b: right , right . grad c: no , no , no , no , no . professor d: ok . we are expecting johno to build a parser , grad c: uh , this is yes . grad b: by the end of the summer , too . professor d: but that 's a no . grad c: no . professor d: no . uh he 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now . grad c: but it 's sort of it 's grad b: right . hmm . still , pretty formidable actually . professor d: eh - absolutely . uh limited . i mean , you know , the idea is is , grad b: yeah . professor d: well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . but it 's not popular it 's only p only grad b: right , right . existence proof , you know . set up the infrastructure , professor d: right . it 's only popula grad b: yeah . professor d: right . grad b: um sometime , i have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions i 'm looking for . i mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , i saw y things from sort of as general as argument structure constructions . oh , you know , i have to do verb phrase . i have to do uh uh unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in uh uh instantiate that . on the other hand i have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like `` get `` plus path expression for , you know , `` how d ho how do i get there ? `` , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: `` how do i get in ? `` , `` how do i get away ? `` professor d: right . grad b: and all that kind of stuff . um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions professor d: absolutely . grad b: and it you know it 's it 's sort of like anything goes . like professor d: ok , so this is i think we 're gon na mainly work on with george . grad b: ok . professor d: ok , and hi let me f th say what i think is is so the idea is uh first of all i misspoke when i said we thought you should do the constructions . cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . so what i yeah , ok , so what what i meant was `` do a first cut at `` . grad b: er that 's what yeah , yeah . professor d: ok , because uh we do wan na get them r u perfectly but i think we 're gon na have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact . grad b: of course . right , exactly . now it w we talked about this before , right . and i i me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh i do n't know , ten , over the summer , professor d: yeah . grad b: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah . professor d: right . so the idea is going to be to do sort of like nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom so you can do f you know , f f uh have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's gon na be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or or or something like that . grad b: yeah . sure . yeah . professor d: so that the the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a some sort of lattice of constructions , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: so some lexical and some phrasal , and and , you know , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances . grad b: mm - hmm . yeah . professor d: and so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things . grad b: mm - hmm . sure . ok . but i mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh of analysis , you know , these do n't necessarily have to be more complex than like the `` out of `` construction in the bcp paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something . professor d: correct . oh yeah yeah . v a half a page is is what we 'd like . grad b: yeah . professor d: and if if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it , grad b: yeah . professor d: but grad b: for the first cut , that should be fine , yeah . professor d: yeah . grad c: we could sit down and think of sort of the the ideal speaker utterances , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and i mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , you know , as as the smartkom people have . this is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so the the `` how do i get to x ? `` , grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , that 's definitely gon na be uh , a major one . grad b: yeah . that 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , yeah . grad c: yep . professor d: right . grad c: `` where is x ? `` might be another one which is not too complicated . grad b: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and um `` tell me something about x . `` grad b: yeah . grad c: and hey , that 's that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality . professor d: ye - right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest . grad b: yeah . grad c: no , we can w throw in an `` out of film `` construction if you want to , but professor d: no , no , no . well the th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right . grad c: ok . professor d: ok , i th we done ? grad c: i have one bit of news . professor d: good . grad c: um , the action planner guy has wrote has written a a p lengthy proposal on how he wants to do the action planning . professor d: good . grad c: and i responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . and professor d: `` action planning `` meaning `` discourse modeling `` ? grad c: yes . and i tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager , professor d: right . grad c: and would n't it make sense to do this here too ? professor d: right . grad c: and also rainer m malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of june . professor d: uh - huh , i 'll be gone . grad c: yeah . he - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town . professor d: sure , ok . grad c: and um m making me incapable of going to naacl , for which i had funding . but . no , no pittsburg this year . grad b: hmm . grad c: when is the uh santa barbara ? professor d: s grad c: who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . that 's something i will would sort of enjoy . professor d: probably should go . that was that 's one you should probably go to . grad c: yep . grad b: how much does it cost ? grad c: there 's grad b: i have n't planned to go . professor d: uh , probably we can uh pay for it . grad b: ok . professor d: um a student rate should n't be very high . so , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll we 'll pay for it . grad b: right . sure . undergrad e: then you can go . professor d: i mean i i do n't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment , grad b: ok . professor d: but it probably is . ok , great . grad b: thanks .

the main focus of the meeting was firstly on the structure of the belief-net , its decision nodes and the parameters that influence them , and secondly , on the design of the data collection tasks . for the latter , there are already 30 subjects lined up and more are expected to be recruited off campus . finally , as to the semantic and syntactic constructions , work will start with more general and brief descriptions , before moving to exhaustive analysis of at least a subset . similarly , the construction parser that is to be built within a year is expected to be relatively basic , yet robust .

what was the proposed structure of the belief net . </s> grad c: now can you give me the uh remote t ? professor d: ok , so eva , co uh could you read your numbers ? grad a: go ahead and read . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: alright . professor d: yeah , let 's get started . um hopefully nancy will come , if not , she wo n't . grad b: uh , robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every uh , it seems to have about at two minute grad c: yeah , i 've i uh it 's not that i did n't try . grad b: ok . grad c: and um i i told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just does n't obey my commands . grad b: ok . grad c: it has a mind . grad b: got it . grad c: but i i just you know , sort of keep on wiggling . undergrad e: wants to conserve . grad b: yeah , ok . grad c: but uh we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it does n't happen . we 'll see . should we plunge right into it ? professor d: yeah . grad c: so , would you like to professor d: i think so . grad c: so what i 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this side . commented and what they 're about and sort of the properties we may um give them . and here are the uh tasks to be implemented via our data collection . so all of these tasks the reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . and analogously for example , here we have our eva um intention . and these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and that may or may not be a problem . we can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so trying to im um implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever . professor d: right , right . grad c: but i think that might be overdoing it a little . professor d: so yeah . so let me pop up a level . and uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . so what we 're gon na do today is two related things . uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . and decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gon na only have to choose parameters , but you know , a fairly large set of parameters . so to do that , we need to do two things . one of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . but we are n't gon na do the probability stuff today . technical stuff we 'll do uh another day . probably next week . but we are gon na worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . and we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with fey on what there should be in the dialogues . so one of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh in here , and have them actually record like this . uh record dialogues more or less . and depending on what fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things . grad c: well how people phrase different intentions more or less , professor d: so fo - v yeah people with the phrase them grad c: huh ? professor d: and so uh for , you know , keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . so what robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh things that that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . so the uh uh on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . so if if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . and he has a handout . grad c: yeah . maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates . professor d: yeah . grad c: um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . any comments i can can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly . undergrad e: m yes . grad c: let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all . grad a: ok . grad c: or have you heard about it ? grad a: not that much you did n't . grad c: no . ok . we were gon na put this in front of people . they give us some information on themselves . grad a: ok . grad c: then then they will read uh a task where lots of german words are sort of thrown in between . and um and they have to read isolated proper names and these change professor d: s i do n't see a release grad c: no , this is not the release form . this is the speaker information form . professor d: got it . ok , fine . ok . grad c: the release form is over there in that box . professor d: alright , fair enough . grad c: and um and then they gon na have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . they they pick a couple , say three uh uh six as a matter of fact . six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in heidelberg or traveling someplace and um and they have a map . grad b: hmm . grad c: like this . very sketchy , simplified map . and they can take notes on that map . and then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything . grad a: ok . grad c: and um grad b: this is a fictional system obviously , grad c: the comp yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you , grad b: huh . grad c: that 's fey . undergrad e: i 've i understand everything . professor d: and she does know everything . undergrad e: yes i do . grad c: and she has a way of making this machine talk . so she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . so if you ask `` how do i get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here `` in order to get to the castle you do `` grad b: yeah . grad c: ok ? and um and then after three tasks the system breaks down . and fey comes on the phone as a human operator . and says `` sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . `` and we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human . grad a: ok . huh . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: that 's the data collection . and um and fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? something ? undergrad e: yeah . grad c: and um and they 're r ready uh to roll . undergrad e: and more and more every day . grad c: and we 're gon na start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ? undergrad e: tomorrow , well we do n't know for sure . because we do n't know whether that person is coming or not , grad c: ok . around four - ish . undergrad e: but grad c: and um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . um behind our backs . but professor d: well , there are these uh uh oh , i see , we have to yeah , it 's tricky . we 'll let 's let we 'll do that off - line , ok . grad c: yeah , but i i i it 's happening . david and and jane and and lila are working on that as we speak . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . that was the uh the data collection in a nutshell . and um i can report a so i did this but i also tried to do this so if i click on here , is n't this wonderful ? we get to the uh uh belief - net just focusing on on the g go - there node . uh analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and what w what happened is that um design - wise i 'd sort of n noticed that we can we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub go - there user go - there situation nodes . so i came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . how much will he is he willing to spend ? or can spend . being the same at this just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is you know charging tons of dollars for admission or its gon na g cost a lot of t e whatever . twenty - two million to fly to international space station , you know . just not all people can do that . professor d: right . grad c: so , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these uh this this intermediate level um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have um then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um i can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - s everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - u , and whatever we specify for the so - called `` keith node `` , or the discourse , what comes from the um parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the d and the ontology to the sub - o node . and um one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does n't make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . but this makes the design thing fairly simple . and um now all w that 's left to do then is the cpg 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . and um ok . and once um bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gon na end up doing . you get involved in that process too . and um and for now uh the the question is `` how much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` so um , one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` visit the zoo tomorrow `` , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now but later . professor d: right . yeah . yeah , so let 's s uh s see i th i think that from one point of view , uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d that , um in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so i th i it seems to me that we ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . and um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . um are all big - ish things that um you know have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine . grad c: hmm . hmm , hmm . yeah the the reason why we did it that way , as a as a reminder , is uh no person is gon na do all of them . professor d: and grad c: they 're just gon na select u um , according to their preferences . professor d: yeah , yeah . grad c: `` ah , yeah , i usually visit zoos , or i usually visit castles , or i usually `` and then you pick that one . professor d: right , no no , but but s th point is to to y to build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing . undergrad e: they 're redundant . professor d: t to build a system that um had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . and the speech people , for example , are gon na do better if they if things come up uh repeatedly . now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . so , all i 'm saying is i th there 's there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and i think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know and each person is only gon na do it once , so you do n't have to worry about them being bored , so if if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle . now of course you have this i guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they would n't talk about with a university and stuff , um but i guess i 'm i uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . you know , less variation . but i do n't know what other people think about this in terms of grad b: so i do n't exactly understand professor d: uh grad b: like i i i guess we 're trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? but who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ? professor d: oh , well , uh th i think there are two places where it comes up . one is uh in the th these people who are gon na take this and and try to do speech with it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: uh lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things . grad b: ok . professor d: that 's one . grad b: so we would rather just ask uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places . professor d: bigger y yeah thi well this is a question for grad b: and that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . so this is a question for you , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and , you know , if we if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . so , um grad c: yeah , the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities . um but i think y i i got the point and i think i like it . we can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion . so , `` go to place `` and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` yeah this is on that `` go to big - ish place `` , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: this is what i would do . `` and then we have the `` fix `` thing , and then maybe `` do something the other day `` thing , so . my question is i guess , to some extent , we should y we just have to try it out and see if it works . it would be challenging , in in a sense , to try to make it so so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of ok , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days . professor d: well yeah . grad c: so they make these decisions , professor d: well i think th th grad c: `` can i go there tomorrow ? `` professor d: yeah . grad c: or you know influences grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . well , i think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . so , the uh system could say , `` well , uh we 'd like to to set up your program for two days in heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . so there th i i in i mean in i th i i 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . yeah , but i think this is part of the instructor 's job . and that can be done , sort of to say , `` ok now we 've picked these six tasks . `` `` now you have you can call the system and you have two days . `` professor d: i 'm sorry . grad c: and th w professor d: no , we have to help we have to decide . fey will p carry out whatever we decide . but we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . that 's what we 're gon na talk about t yeah . grad c: yep , yep . phd f: but these are two different scenarios entirely . i mean , one is a planner the other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot grad c: yeah , but th the i do n't i 'm not really interested in sort of `` phase planning `` capabilities . but it 's more the how do people phrase these planning requests ? so are we gon na masquerade the system as this as you said simple response system , `` i have one question i get one response `` , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . and a i w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references . professor d: well , so keith , what do you think ? grad b: well , um it seems that yeah , i mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . i mean you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic more interesting linguistic stuff . but i mean i 'm i 'm not really sure uh , because i do n't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet . grad c: i mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh is was faced with exactly this kind of setup . grad b: i started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing . grad c: and grad b: i thought i 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . and . grad c: oh , ok . that was the first subject . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: first one was n't very good . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: so um , i grad c: um , it is already with this it got pretty with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex . undergrad e: although grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: maybe i suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get sort of run through ten or so subjects grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and then take a breather , and see whether we wan na make it more complex or not , depending on what what sort of results we 're getting . grad b: right . yeah . it in fact , um , i am just you know today , next couple days gon na start really diving into this data . i 've basically looked at one of the files you know one of these l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and i looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , `` alright , well , let 's start here . `` um . so i have n't really gone into the , you know looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . so i do n't really right , i mean , once i start doing that i 'll have more to say about this kind of thing . professor d: ok . grad c: and y and always professor d: but well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh with the simple cases for quite a while . grad b: yeah . professor d: although , obviously th so so that sa s does suggest that uh , now , i have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant . grad b: yeah , yeah . professor d: that that it was it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing . grad b: i um i did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them . professor d: yeah . grad b: but yeah , yeah i noticed that , too . professor d: so , we we we wan na do more than that . grad c: and with this we 're getting more . no question . professor d: ok . right . so grad c: uh w do we wan na get going beyond more , which is sort of the professor d: well , ok , so let 's let 's take let 's i i think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh a batch . ok . and , uh , fey , how long is it gon na be till you have ten subjects ? couple days ? or thr f a a week ? or i do n't i do n't have a feel for th undergrad e: um i can yeah , i mean i s i think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever . professor d: well , it 's it 's up to you , i mean i j i uh e we do n't have any huge time pressure . it 's just when you have t undergrad e: how long will it be ? professor d: yeah . undergrad e: um i i would say maybe two weeks . professor d: oh , ok . so let 's do this . let 's plan next monday , ok , to have a review of what we have so far . grad c: this means audio , but professor d: and huh ? grad c: no transcriptions of course , yeah . professor d: no , we wo n't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and i do n't know if , fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . i mean we could lis uh just sit here and listen to it all . are you gon na have the audio on the web site ? ok . grad c: until we reach the gigabyte thing and david johnson s ki kills me . and we 're gon na put it on the web site . yeah . professor d: oh , we could get i mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? i mean it 's it 's not like ok . so , we 'll take care of david johnson . grad c: no , he uh , he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful , professor d: ok . undergrad e: take care of him . professor d: ok . grad c: so s professor d: alright . so we 'll buy a disk . but anyway , so , um , if you if you can think of a way to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or or something uh , make your make notes or something that that this is , you know , something worth looking at . and other than that , yeah i guess we 'll just have to uh , listen although i guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? roughly . undergrad e: well , i guess . i 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take . grad c: the reading task is a lot shorter . that was cut by fifty percent . and the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people . professor d: right . no , we do n't care about that at all . grad c: so . it 's actually like five minutes dialogue . professor d: i b my guess is it 's gon na be ten . grad c: ten minutes is long . professor d: people i understand , but people people you know uh undergrad e: it feels like a long time grad c: yeah . undergrad e: but . grad c: it feels like forever when you 're doing it , professor d: yeah . grad c: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: could be . ok . i was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and whatever . whatever it is we 'll we 'll deal with it . grad c: yeah , it 's not and it 's fun . professor d: ok , so that 'll be that 'll be um on on the web page . grad c: ok . professor d: that 's great . um but anyway yeah , so i think it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . and then if we want to uh get them to start doing uh multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and you know , any of that stuff . uh you know , `` which things would you like to do tuesday morning ? `` grad c: yeah . professor d: so yeah i th that seems pretty straight forward . undergrad e: but were you saying that grad c: i need those back by the way . grad b: ok . professor d: ok . undergrad e: yeah . grad c: that 's for professor d: i 'm sorry , fey , what ? undergrad e: that w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? professor d: that 's what i was suggesting for the first round , yeah . undergrad e: ok . grad b: so rather than having zoo and castle . undergrad e: and then , i mean , they could be alternate versions of the same if you wanted data on different constructions . professor d: they could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but uh but undergrad e: like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the professor d: you could , but i but i i i think in the short run , grad c: and no , th the per the person do n't get it . i mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - a and three tasks for part - b a professor d: right . yeah . undergrad e: well no , they could still choose . they just would n't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle . grad c: exactly . this is limiting the choices , but yeah . right . ok , sorry . but um i i think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say `` ok , this is what i would actually do . `` undergrad e: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . undergrad e: he was vicious . grad c: ok , we got ta we got ta disallow uh traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of undergrad e: i mean there they are significantly different , but . grad c: but no , they 're i mean they 're sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different undergrad e: yeah , i guess so . grad c: and , um , these are just places where you you enter um , much like here . professor d: yeah . grad c: but we can uh professor d: yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , `` attend a theater , symphony or opera `` is is a group , and `` tour the university , castle or zoo `` , grad c: mm - hmm yeah . professor d: all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` um aspect about the way you would go to them . and uh , the movie theater is probably also uh e is a `` attend `` et cetera . grad c: attend , yeah . professor d: so it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things , grad c: hmm , mm - hmm . professor d: and then , what one would expect is that that the sentence types would uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect . grad b: mm - hmm . phd f: but i mean i it seem that um there is a difference between going to see something , and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` professor d: oh , absolutely . yeah . phd f: uh @ @ function , yeah . grad c: yeah , this is where yeah th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff yeah . ok . but this is open . so since people gon na still pick something , we we 're not gon na get any significant amount of redundancy . and for reasons , we do n't want it , really , in that sense . and um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with or with a computer . and so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . we 're not gon na do much statistical stuff with it . professor d: we do n't have enough . grad c: no . but it seems like since we since we are getting towards uh subject uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a uh sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before fey t takes off to chicago . undergrad e: that means that one hundred people have to be interested . grad b: good luck . undergrad e: yeah . professor d: well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far , undergrad e: yeah . professor d: right ? undergrad e: yeah . professor d: so we yeah we do n't know how many we can get next door at the uh shelter for example . grad b: hmm . professor d: uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few . grad b: yeah . that 's right . professor d: yeah . so , alright , so let 's go let 's go back then , to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing . grad c: yep . professor d: do do people think that , you know this is is gon na um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ? grad c: okay , in terms of decision nodes ? i mean , go - there is is a yes or no . professor d: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yep . grad c: i 'm also interested in th in this `` property `` uh line here , so if you look at sorry , look at that um , timing was um i have these three . do we need a final differentiation there ? now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour . grad b: what 's this idea of `` next tour `` ? i mean grad c: it 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and you can do something immediately , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: you could sort of tag it on to that tour grad b: or ok . grad c: or you can say this is something i would do s i wan na do sometime l in my life , basically . grad b: ok . ok . so so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever , professor d: right . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel . grad b: ok . got it . professor d: i mean if you if if you wanted precise about it , uh you know , grad b: got it . professor d: uh and i think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives . grad b: sure , sure , sure . professor d: you know , `` ok , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off grad b: ok . professor d: and `` phd f: so all tours b a tour happens only within one day ? professor d: yes . grad b: ok . professor d: it phd f: so the next tour will be tomorrow ? professor d: right . for this . grad b: ok . just to be totally clear . ok . grad c: well , my visit to prague there were some nights where i never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to think . grad b: you just spend the whole time at u fleku or something , phd f: yeah . professor d: i w we will we will not ask you more . grad b: ri undergrad e: right . phd f: right . undergrad e: that 's enough . grad c: i do n't know . what is the uh the the english co uh um cognate if you want , for `` sankt nimmerlandstag `` ? grad b: keine ahnung grad c: sort of `` we 'll do it on when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen . professor d: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad c: do you have an expression ? probably you sh grad b: not that i know of actually . grad c: yeah , when hell yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over . professor d: yeah . grad c: so maybe that should be another property in there . phd f: right . professor d: yeah . yeah . undergrad e: never . professor d: no . grad c: ok . um , the reason why why do we go there in the first place ie uh it 's either uh for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . entertainment is a good one in there , i think . i agree . grad b: so , business is supposed to uh , be sort of it like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ? grad c: yep . grad b: ok . um . grad c: i mean this w this is uh an old uh johno thing . he sort of had it in there . `` who is the the tour is the person ? `` so it might be a tourist , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , or or both . grad b: yeah . yeah , i mean like for example my my father is about to travel to prague . grad c: yep . grad b: he 'll be there for two weeks . he is going to uh he 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things . grad c: yep . professor d: mmm . grad c: yep . professor d: sure . right . grad c: he would phd f: what ab what do you have in mind in terms of um socializing ? what kind of activities ? grad c: eh , just meeting people , basically . `` i want to meet someone somewhere `` , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` eva `` phd f: oh grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just want to approach it . grad b: so i mean , does this capture , like , where do you put `` exchange money `` is an errand , right ? but what about uh grad c: yep . professor d: mm - hmm grad b: so , like `` go to a movie `` is now entertainment , `` dine out `` is phd f: socializing , i guess . professor d: no , i i well , i dunno . let let well , we 'll put it somewhere , grad b: so i mean right . professor d: but but um i would say that if `` dine out `` is a special c uh if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment . grad b: yeah . professor d: and we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about `` well , you 're you know this is going over a meal time , do you wan na stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's different . that 's that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of `` en passant , `` right . grad b: right . grad c: that goes with the `` energy depletion `` function , blech . grad b: yeah . professor d: right , yeah . grad c: ok , `` endpoint `` . grad b: `` tourist needs food , badly `` professor d: right . grad c: `` endpoint `` is pretty clear . um , `` mode `` , uh , i have found three , `` drive there `` , `` walk there `` uh or `` be driven `` , which means bus , taxi , bart . professor d: ok . grad c: yeah . yep . professor d: obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system does n't have any public transport this the planner system does n't have any public transport in it yet . grad c: so this granularity would suffice , i think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation . grad b: h how much of heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? i mean in terms of the interesting bits . there 's lots of bits where you do n't really i 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so i do n't remember , but . i mean , like the sort of the tourist - y bits professor d: mm - well , grad c: everywhere . grad b: is it like professor d: you ca n't get to the philosophers ' way very well , grad b: yeah . professor d: but , i mean there are hikes that you ca n't get to , but grad b: ok . grad c: yeah . professor d: but i think other things you can , if i remember right . grad a: so is like `` biking there `` part of like `` driving there `` , grad c: yeah , um we actually biking should be should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component . grad a: or ? grad c: so . professor d: oh ! undergrad e: mmm g that 's good . grad c: um . professor d: put it in . grad c: bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic i mean is this realistic ? i mean grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , we can leave it out , i guess . grad b: yeah . grad c: we can we can sort of uh , drive grad b: i would i would lump it with `` walk `` because hills matter . grad c: yeah . grad b: right ? you know . things like that . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . skateboards right , anyway . phd f: right . professor d: scooters , grad c: yep . professor d: right ? grad c: ok , `` length `` is um , you wan na get this over with as fast as possible , professor d: alright . grad c: you wan na use some part of what of the time you have . um , they can . but we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time . professor d: ye grad b: hmm . grad c: you know , they wan na do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh you know the necessary and plus time . and um and y you know , if we feel that they wan na do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . so , stretch out that visit for that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: wow it seems like this would be really hard to guess . i mean , on the part of the system . it seems like it i mean you 're you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ? professor d: w well grad c: th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we we hand over these parameters if we make if we have a feeling that they are important . grad b: overrider professor d: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask . professor d: and grad b: ok . professor d: and par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you ca n't figure it out , then you ask . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: but hopefully you do n't ask you know , a all these things all the time . grad b: yeah . professor d: or eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking . grad b: yeah . right . yeah . grad c: and if no no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gon na ask for it . grad b: yeah . grad c: y so and i like the idea that , you know , sort of jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: if you wan na simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? and , timing , uh , uh , length would definitely be part of it , `` costs `` , `` little money , some money , lots of money `` ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: actually , maybe uh f { comment } uh so , f yeah , ok . hmm ? grad b: you could say `` some `` in there . phd f: i must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . um maybe it seems like appropriate if i go to las vegas . well but i decide k kind of how much money uh i 'm willing to lose . but a i as a tourist , i 'll just paying what 's what 's more or less is required . professor d: well , no . i think there are there 're different things where you have a ch choice , undergrad e: mmm . grad b: yeah . professor d: for example , uh this t interacts with `` do am i do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? `` grad b: dinner . professor d: or uh , you know , if if you 're going to the opera are you gon na l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery phd f: the best seat or or right . professor d: or , you know , grad b: ok . so professor d: whatever ? s so i think there are a variety of things in which um tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . another one , grad b: yeah . professor d: you know . undergrad e: right . phd f: right , that 's true . grad c: the what what my sort of sentiment is they 're well , i i once had to write a a a a charter , a carter for a a student organization . and they had wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . and i looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a and i wrote in there `` en - enough `` people have to be there . and it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people . grad b: yeah . grad c: and if you go to turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say `` how much cheese do you want ? `` and they say `` ah , enough . `` and the and the this used all over the place . because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and um so the middle part is always sort of the the golden way , right ? so you can s you can be really make it as cheap as possible , or you can say `` i want , er , you know , i do n't care `` grad b: money is no object . mm - hmm . grad c: money is no object , professor d: yeah . grad c: or you say `` i just want to spend enough `` . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount . grad b: yeah . grad c: but , then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . but well , this is my first guess , grad b: i mean y yeah . grad c: in much the same way as how how d you know should the route be ? should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: no steep inclinations ? go the normal way ? whatever that again means , er or do you does the person wan na rough it ? grad b: mm - hmm . i mean th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? you know `` i want to go there and i do n't care if it 's really hard . `` or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . `` i wan na go there and i insist on it being the hard way . `` professor d: right . grad b: right ? you know , so i assume we 're going for the first interpretation , undergrad e: right . grad b: right ? something like i 'll go th i mean i 'd li i dunno . it 's different from thing to professor d: no , i think he was going for the second one ar actually . grad b: yeah ? i i professor d: anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: absolutely . grad c: well , this is all sort of um , top of my head . grad b: yeah . grad c: no no research behind that . um `` object information `` , `` do i do i wan na know anything about that object ? `` is either true or false . and . if i care about it being open , accessible or not , i do n't think there 's any middle ground there . um , either i wan na know where it is or not , i wan na know about it 's history or not , or , um i wan na know about what it 's good for or not . maybe one could put scales in there , too . so i wan na know a l lot about it . professor d: yeah , now ob ok , i 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gon na say ? grad c: one could put scales in there . so i wan na know a lot about the history , just a bit . professor d: yeah , right well y i w if we w right . so `` object `` becomes `` entity `` , right ? grad c: yep , that 's true . professor d: yeah , but we do n't have to do it now . grad c: yep . that was the wrong shortcut anyhow . professor d: and we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or or or something very close to it is going to be uh going to be enough . and undergrad e: still wrong . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: alright , so um so i think the order of things is that um , robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . and grad c: what , well this is the part that professor d: huh ? grad c: this is the part that needs the work . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , so right , so so , um in parallel , uh three things are going to happen . uh robert and eva and bhaskara are gon na actually build a belief - net that that , um , has cpt 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . and fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gon na start thinking a about uh what constructions we want to elicit . and then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit grad b: d do you mean do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? semantically speaking , eh ? professor d: well , yes . grad b: ok . professor d: both . uh , and though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ? grad b: right . sure . professor d: and and so uh grad b: i mean from my point of view i 'm i 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know professor d: well that too , grad b: ok . professor d: but um you know if th if we in if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order . grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever , grad b: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: um w you know , whatever form they use is fine . grad b: ok . professor d: but i i think that probably we 're gon na try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we do we want them to uh do direc grad b: ok . professor d: you know , um , `` caused motion `` , i do n't know , something like that . grad b: ok . professor d: uh but , eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and i have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that . grad b: got it . yeah . uh yeah . ok . professor d: but uh grad c: well , i will tell you the german tourist data . grad b: ok . grad c: because i have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty d v grad b: ok . grad c: um if you grad b: is that roughly the equivalent of of what i 've seen in english or is it grad c: no , not at all . grad b: ok . grad c: dialogues . smartkom grad b: ok . grad c: smartkom human . wizard of oz . grad b: ok . same ok , that . got it . like what what have i got now ? i mean i have uh what what i 'm loo what i those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with fey ? grad c: a little bit of data , i grad b: is that what it is ? or ? grad c: with nothing . grad b: just talking into a box and not hearing anything back . professor d: no , no . grad c: yep . grad b: ok . grad c: yep . some data i collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when . grad b: ok . ok . grad c: nothing to write home about . grad b: ok . grad c: and um the see this this this uh ontology node is probably something that i will try to expand . once we have the full ontology api , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? and hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know or the grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: right . grad c: in terms of uh professor d: right , but we 're not expecting keith to actually build a parser . grad b: right , right . grad c: no , no , no , no , no . professor d: ok . we are expecting johno to build a parser , grad c: uh , this is yes . grad b: by the end of the summer , too . professor d: but that 's a no . grad c: no . professor d: no . uh he 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now . grad c: but it 's sort of it 's grad b: right . hmm . still , pretty formidable actually . professor d: eh - absolutely . uh limited . i mean , you know , the idea is is , grad b: yeah . professor d: well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . but it 's not popular it 's only p only grad b: right , right . existence proof , you know . set up the infrastructure , professor d: right . it 's only popula grad b: yeah . professor d: right . grad b: um sometime , i have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions i 'm looking for . i mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , i saw y things from sort of as general as argument structure constructions . oh , you know , i have to do verb phrase . i have to do uh uh unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in uh uh instantiate that . on the other hand i have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like `` get `` plus path expression for , you know , `` how d ho how do i get there ? `` , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: `` how do i get in ? `` , `` how do i get away ? `` professor d: right . grad b: and all that kind of stuff . um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions professor d: absolutely . grad b: and it you know it 's it 's sort of like anything goes . like professor d: ok , so this is i think we 're gon na mainly work on with george . grad b: ok . professor d: ok , and hi let me f th say what i think is is so the idea is uh first of all i misspoke when i said we thought you should do the constructions . cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . so what i yeah , ok , so what what i meant was `` do a first cut at `` . grad b: er that 's what yeah , yeah . professor d: ok , because uh we do wan na get them r u perfectly but i think we 're gon na have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact . grad b: of course . right , exactly . now it w we talked about this before , right . and i i me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh i do n't know , ten , over the summer , professor d: yeah . grad b: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah . professor d: right . so the idea is going to be to do sort of like nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom so you can do f you know , f f uh have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's gon na be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or or or something like that . grad b: yeah . sure . yeah . professor d: so that the the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a some sort of lattice of constructions , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: so some lexical and some phrasal , and and , you know , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances . grad b: mm - hmm . yeah . professor d: and so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things . grad b: mm - hmm . sure . ok . but i mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh of analysis , you know , these do n't necessarily have to be more complex than like the `` out of `` construction in the bcp paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something . professor d: correct . oh yeah yeah . v a half a page is is what we 'd like . grad b: yeah . professor d: and if if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it , grad b: yeah . professor d: but grad b: for the first cut , that should be fine , yeah . professor d: yeah . grad c: we could sit down and think of sort of the the ideal speaker utterances , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and i mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , you know , as as the smartkom people have . this is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so the the `` how do i get to x ? `` , grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , that 's definitely gon na be uh , a major one . grad b: yeah . that 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , yeah . grad c: yep . professor d: right . grad c: `` where is x ? `` might be another one which is not too complicated . grad b: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and um `` tell me something about x . `` grad b: yeah . grad c: and hey , that 's that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality . professor d: ye - right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest . grad b: yeah . grad c: no , we can w throw in an `` out of film `` construction if you want to , but professor d: no , no , no . well the th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right . grad c: ok . professor d: ok , i th we done ? grad c: i have one bit of news . professor d: good . grad c: um , the action planner guy has wrote has written a a p lengthy proposal on how he wants to do the action planning . professor d: good . grad c: and i responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . and professor d: `` action planning `` meaning `` discourse modeling `` ? grad c: yes . and i tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager , professor d: right . grad c: and would n't it make sense to do this here too ? professor d: right . grad c: and also rainer m malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of june . professor d: uh - huh , i 'll be gone . grad c: yeah . he - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town . professor d: sure , ok . grad c: and um m making me incapable of going to naacl , for which i had funding . but . no , no pittsburg this year . grad b: hmm . grad c: when is the uh santa barbara ? professor d: s grad c: who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . that 's something i will would sort of enjoy . professor d: probably should go . that was that 's one you should probably go to . grad c: yep . grad b: how much does it cost ? grad c: there 's grad b: i have n't planned to go . professor d: uh , probably we can uh pay for it . grad b: ok . professor d: um a student rate should n't be very high . so , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll we 'll pay for it . grad b: right . sure . undergrad e: then you can go . professor d: i mean i i do n't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment , grad b: ok . professor d: but it probably is . ok , great . grad b: thanks .

the team discussed that the organisation of the intermediate nodes of the belief-net and their properties is almost complete , although no conditional probabilities have been inserted yet . these nodes represent decisions that will function as parameters to action calls in the system . their values will either be inferred from the user-system interaction , or -as a last resort- requested directly from the user .

what are the key features of the intermediate nodes ? </s> grad c: now can you give me the uh remote t ? professor d: ok , so eva , co uh could you read your numbers ? grad a: go ahead and read . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: alright . professor d: yeah , let 's get started . um hopefully nancy will come , if not , she wo n't . grad b: uh , robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every uh , it seems to have about at two minute grad c: yeah , i 've i uh it 's not that i did n't try . grad b: ok . grad c: and um i i told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just does n't obey my commands . grad b: ok . grad c: it has a mind . grad b: got it . grad c: but i i just you know , sort of keep on wiggling . undergrad e: wants to conserve . grad b: yeah , ok . grad c: but uh we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it does n't happen . we 'll see . should we plunge right into it ? professor d: yeah . grad c: so , would you like to professor d: i think so . grad c: so what i 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this side . commented and what they 're about and sort of the properties we may um give them . and here are the uh tasks to be implemented via our data collection . so all of these tasks the reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . and analogously for example , here we have our eva um intention . and these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and that may or may not be a problem . we can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so trying to im um implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever . professor d: right , right . grad c: but i think that might be overdoing it a little . professor d: so yeah . so let me pop up a level . and uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . so what we 're gon na do today is two related things . uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . and decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gon na only have to choose parameters , but you know , a fairly large set of parameters . so to do that , we need to do two things . one of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . but we are n't gon na do the probability stuff today . technical stuff we 'll do uh another day . probably next week . but we are gon na worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . and we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with fey on what there should be in the dialogues . so one of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh in here , and have them actually record like this . uh record dialogues more or less . and depending on what fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things . grad c: well how people phrase different intentions more or less , professor d: so fo - v yeah people with the phrase them grad c: huh ? professor d: and so uh for , you know , keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . so what robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh things that that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . so the uh uh on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . so if if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . and he has a handout . grad c: yeah . maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates . professor d: yeah . grad c: um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . any comments i can can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly . undergrad e: m yes . grad c: let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all . grad a: ok . grad c: or have you heard about it ? grad a: not that much you did n't . grad c: no . ok . we were gon na put this in front of people . they give us some information on themselves . grad a: ok . grad c: then then they will read uh a task where lots of german words are sort of thrown in between . and um and they have to read isolated proper names and these change professor d: s i do n't see a release grad c: no , this is not the release form . this is the speaker information form . professor d: got it . ok , fine . ok . grad c: the release form is over there in that box . professor d: alright , fair enough . grad c: and um and then they gon na have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . they they pick a couple , say three uh uh six as a matter of fact . six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in heidelberg or traveling someplace and um and they have a map . grad b: hmm . grad c: like this . very sketchy , simplified map . and they can take notes on that map . and then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything . grad a: ok . grad c: and um grad b: this is a fictional system obviously , grad c: the comp yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you , grad b: huh . grad c: that 's fey . undergrad e: i 've i understand everything . professor d: and she does know everything . undergrad e: yes i do . grad c: and she has a way of making this machine talk . so she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . so if you ask `` how do i get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here `` in order to get to the castle you do `` grad b: yeah . grad c: ok ? and um and then after three tasks the system breaks down . and fey comes on the phone as a human operator . and says `` sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . `` and we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human . grad a: ok . huh . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: that 's the data collection . and um and fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? something ? undergrad e: yeah . grad c: and um and they 're r ready uh to roll . undergrad e: and more and more every day . grad c: and we 're gon na start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ? undergrad e: tomorrow , well we do n't know for sure . because we do n't know whether that person is coming or not , grad c: ok . around four - ish . undergrad e: but grad c: and um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . um behind our backs . but professor d: well , there are these uh uh oh , i see , we have to yeah , it 's tricky . we 'll let 's let we 'll do that off - line , ok . grad c: yeah , but i i i it 's happening . david and and jane and and lila are working on that as we speak . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . that was the uh the data collection in a nutshell . and um i can report a so i did this but i also tried to do this so if i click on here , is n't this wonderful ? we get to the uh uh belief - net just focusing on on the g go - there node . uh analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and what w what happened is that um design - wise i 'd sort of n noticed that we can we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub go - there user go - there situation nodes . so i came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . how much will he is he willing to spend ? or can spend . being the same at this just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is you know charging tons of dollars for admission or its gon na g cost a lot of t e whatever . twenty - two million to fly to international space station , you know . just not all people can do that . professor d: right . grad c: so , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these uh this this intermediate level um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have um then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um i can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - s everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - u , and whatever we specify for the so - called `` keith node `` , or the discourse , what comes from the um parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the d and the ontology to the sub - o node . and um one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does n't make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . but this makes the design thing fairly simple . and um now all w that 's left to do then is the cpg 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . and um ok . and once um bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gon na end up doing . you get involved in that process too . and um and for now uh the the question is `` how much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` so um , one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` visit the zoo tomorrow `` , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now but later . professor d: right . yeah . yeah , so let 's s uh s see i th i think that from one point of view , uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d that , um in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so i th i it seems to me that we ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . and um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . um are all big - ish things that um you know have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine . grad c: hmm . hmm , hmm . yeah the the reason why we did it that way , as a as a reminder , is uh no person is gon na do all of them . professor d: and grad c: they 're just gon na select u um , according to their preferences . professor d: yeah , yeah . grad c: `` ah , yeah , i usually visit zoos , or i usually visit castles , or i usually `` and then you pick that one . professor d: right , no no , but but s th point is to to y to build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing . undergrad e: they 're redundant . professor d: t to build a system that um had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . and the speech people , for example , are gon na do better if they if things come up uh repeatedly . now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . so , all i 'm saying is i th there 's there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and i think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know and each person is only gon na do it once , so you do n't have to worry about them being bored , so if if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle . now of course you have this i guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they would n't talk about with a university and stuff , um but i guess i 'm i uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . you know , less variation . but i do n't know what other people think about this in terms of grad b: so i do n't exactly understand professor d: uh grad b: like i i i guess we 're trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? but who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ? professor d: oh , well , uh th i think there are two places where it comes up . one is uh in the th these people who are gon na take this and and try to do speech with it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: uh lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things . grad b: ok . professor d: that 's one . grad b: so we would rather just ask uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places . professor d: bigger y yeah thi well this is a question for grad b: and that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . so this is a question for you , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and , you know , if we if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . so , um grad c: yeah , the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities . um but i think y i i got the point and i think i like it . we can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion . so , `` go to place `` and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` yeah this is on that `` go to big - ish place `` , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: this is what i would do . `` and then we have the `` fix `` thing , and then maybe `` do something the other day `` thing , so . my question is i guess , to some extent , we should y we just have to try it out and see if it works . it would be challenging , in in a sense , to try to make it so so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of ok , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days . professor d: well yeah . grad c: so they make these decisions , professor d: well i think th th grad c: `` can i go there tomorrow ? `` professor d: yeah . grad c: or you know influences grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . well , i think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . so , the uh system could say , `` well , uh we 'd like to to set up your program for two days in heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . so there th i i in i mean in i th i i 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . yeah , but i think this is part of the instructor 's job . and that can be done , sort of to say , `` ok now we 've picked these six tasks . `` `` now you have you can call the system and you have two days . `` professor d: i 'm sorry . grad c: and th w professor d: no , we have to help we have to decide . fey will p carry out whatever we decide . but we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . that 's what we 're gon na talk about t yeah . grad c: yep , yep . phd f: but these are two different scenarios entirely . i mean , one is a planner the other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot grad c: yeah , but th the i do n't i 'm not really interested in sort of `` phase planning `` capabilities . but it 's more the how do people phrase these planning requests ? so are we gon na masquerade the system as this as you said simple response system , `` i have one question i get one response `` , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . and a i w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references . professor d: well , so keith , what do you think ? grad b: well , um it seems that yeah , i mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . i mean you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic more interesting linguistic stuff . but i mean i 'm i 'm not really sure uh , because i do n't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet . grad c: i mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh is was faced with exactly this kind of setup . grad b: i started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing . grad c: and grad b: i thought i 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . and . grad c: oh , ok . that was the first subject . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: first one was n't very good . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: so um , i grad c: um , it is already with this it got pretty with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex . undergrad e: although grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: maybe i suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get sort of run through ten or so subjects grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and then take a breather , and see whether we wan na make it more complex or not , depending on what what sort of results we 're getting . grad b: right . yeah . it in fact , um , i am just you know today , next couple days gon na start really diving into this data . i 've basically looked at one of the files you know one of these l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and i looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , `` alright , well , let 's start here . `` um . so i have n't really gone into the , you know looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . so i do n't really right , i mean , once i start doing that i 'll have more to say about this kind of thing . professor d: ok . grad c: and y and always professor d: but well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh with the simple cases for quite a while . grad b: yeah . professor d: although , obviously th so so that sa s does suggest that uh , now , i have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant . grad b: yeah , yeah . professor d: that that it was it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing . grad b: i um i did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them . professor d: yeah . grad b: but yeah , yeah i noticed that , too . professor d: so , we we we wan na do more than that . grad c: and with this we 're getting more . no question . professor d: ok . right . so grad c: uh w do we wan na get going beyond more , which is sort of the professor d: well , ok , so let 's let 's take let 's i i think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh a batch . ok . and , uh , fey , how long is it gon na be till you have ten subjects ? couple days ? or thr f a a week ? or i do n't i do n't have a feel for th undergrad e: um i can yeah , i mean i s i think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever . professor d: well , it 's it 's up to you , i mean i j i uh e we do n't have any huge time pressure . it 's just when you have t undergrad e: how long will it be ? professor d: yeah . undergrad e: um i i would say maybe two weeks . professor d: oh , ok . so let 's do this . let 's plan next monday , ok , to have a review of what we have so far . grad c: this means audio , but professor d: and huh ? grad c: no transcriptions of course , yeah . professor d: no , we wo n't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and i do n't know if , fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . i mean we could lis uh just sit here and listen to it all . are you gon na have the audio on the web site ? ok . grad c: until we reach the gigabyte thing and david johnson s ki kills me . and we 're gon na put it on the web site . yeah . professor d: oh , we could get i mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? i mean it 's it 's not like ok . so , we 'll take care of david johnson . grad c: no , he uh , he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful , professor d: ok . undergrad e: take care of him . professor d: ok . grad c: so s professor d: alright . so we 'll buy a disk . but anyway , so , um , if you if you can think of a way to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or or something uh , make your make notes or something that that this is , you know , something worth looking at . and other than that , yeah i guess we 'll just have to uh , listen although i guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? roughly . undergrad e: well , i guess . i 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take . grad c: the reading task is a lot shorter . that was cut by fifty percent . and the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people . professor d: right . no , we do n't care about that at all . grad c: so . it 's actually like five minutes dialogue . professor d: i b my guess is it 's gon na be ten . grad c: ten minutes is long . professor d: people i understand , but people people you know uh undergrad e: it feels like a long time grad c: yeah . undergrad e: but . grad c: it feels like forever when you 're doing it , professor d: yeah . grad c: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: could be . ok . i was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and whatever . whatever it is we 'll we 'll deal with it . grad c: yeah , it 's not and it 's fun . professor d: ok , so that 'll be that 'll be um on on the web page . grad c: ok . professor d: that 's great . um but anyway yeah , so i think it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . and then if we want to uh get them to start doing uh multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and you know , any of that stuff . uh you know , `` which things would you like to do tuesday morning ? `` grad c: yeah . professor d: so yeah i th that seems pretty straight forward . undergrad e: but were you saying that grad c: i need those back by the way . grad b: ok . professor d: ok . undergrad e: yeah . grad c: that 's for professor d: i 'm sorry , fey , what ? undergrad e: that w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? professor d: that 's what i was suggesting for the first round , yeah . undergrad e: ok . grad b: so rather than having zoo and castle . undergrad e: and then , i mean , they could be alternate versions of the same if you wanted data on different constructions . professor d: they could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but uh but undergrad e: like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the professor d: you could , but i but i i i think in the short run , grad c: and no , th the per the person do n't get it . i mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - a and three tasks for part - b a professor d: right . yeah . undergrad e: well no , they could still choose . they just would n't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle . grad c: exactly . this is limiting the choices , but yeah . right . ok , sorry . but um i i think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say `` ok , this is what i would actually do . `` undergrad e: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . undergrad e: he was vicious . grad c: ok , we got ta we got ta disallow uh traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of undergrad e: i mean there they are significantly different , but . grad c: but no , they 're i mean they 're sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different undergrad e: yeah , i guess so . grad c: and , um , these are just places where you you enter um , much like here . professor d: yeah . grad c: but we can uh professor d: yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , `` attend a theater , symphony or opera `` is is a group , and `` tour the university , castle or zoo `` , grad c: mm - hmm yeah . professor d: all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` um aspect about the way you would go to them . and uh , the movie theater is probably also uh e is a `` attend `` et cetera . grad c: attend , yeah . professor d: so it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things , grad c: hmm , mm - hmm . professor d: and then , what one would expect is that that the sentence types would uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect . grad b: mm - hmm . phd f: but i mean i it seem that um there is a difference between going to see something , and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` professor d: oh , absolutely . yeah . phd f: uh @ @ function , yeah . grad c: yeah , this is where yeah th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff yeah . ok . but this is open . so since people gon na still pick something , we we 're not gon na get any significant amount of redundancy . and for reasons , we do n't want it , really , in that sense . and um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with or with a computer . and so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . we 're not gon na do much statistical stuff with it . professor d: we do n't have enough . grad c: no . but it seems like since we since we are getting towards uh subject uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a uh sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before fey t takes off to chicago . undergrad e: that means that one hundred people have to be interested . grad b: good luck . undergrad e: yeah . professor d: well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far , undergrad e: yeah . professor d: right ? undergrad e: yeah . professor d: so we yeah we do n't know how many we can get next door at the uh shelter for example . grad b: hmm . professor d: uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few . grad b: yeah . that 's right . professor d: yeah . so , alright , so let 's go let 's go back then , to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing . grad c: yep . professor d: do do people think that , you know this is is gon na um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ? grad c: okay , in terms of decision nodes ? i mean , go - there is is a yes or no . professor d: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yep . grad c: i 'm also interested in th in this `` property `` uh line here , so if you look at sorry , look at that um , timing was um i have these three . do we need a final differentiation there ? now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour . grad b: what 's this idea of `` next tour `` ? i mean grad c: it 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and you can do something immediately , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: you could sort of tag it on to that tour grad b: or ok . grad c: or you can say this is something i would do s i wan na do sometime l in my life , basically . grad b: ok . ok . so so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever , professor d: right . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel . grad b: ok . got it . professor d: i mean if you if if you wanted precise about it , uh you know , grad b: got it . professor d: uh and i think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives . grad b: sure , sure , sure . professor d: you know , `` ok , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off grad b: ok . professor d: and `` phd f: so all tours b a tour happens only within one day ? professor d: yes . grad b: ok . professor d: it phd f: so the next tour will be tomorrow ? professor d: right . for this . grad b: ok . just to be totally clear . ok . grad c: well , my visit to prague there were some nights where i never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to think . grad b: you just spend the whole time at u fleku or something , phd f: yeah . professor d: i w we will we will not ask you more . grad b: ri undergrad e: right . phd f: right . undergrad e: that 's enough . grad c: i do n't know . what is the uh the the english co uh um cognate if you want , for `` sankt nimmerlandstag `` ? grad b: keine ahnung grad c: sort of `` we 'll do it on when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen . professor d: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad c: do you have an expression ? probably you sh grad b: not that i know of actually . grad c: yeah , when hell yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over . professor d: yeah . grad c: so maybe that should be another property in there . phd f: right . professor d: yeah . yeah . undergrad e: never . professor d: no . grad c: ok . um , the reason why why do we go there in the first place ie uh it 's either uh for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . entertainment is a good one in there , i think . i agree . grad b: so , business is supposed to uh , be sort of it like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ? grad c: yep . grad b: ok . um . grad c: i mean this w this is uh an old uh johno thing . he sort of had it in there . `` who is the the tour is the person ? `` so it might be a tourist , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , or or both . grad b: yeah . yeah , i mean like for example my my father is about to travel to prague . grad c: yep . grad b: he 'll be there for two weeks . he is going to uh he 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things . grad c: yep . professor d: mmm . grad c: yep . professor d: sure . right . grad c: he would phd f: what ab what do you have in mind in terms of um socializing ? what kind of activities ? grad c: eh , just meeting people , basically . `` i want to meet someone somewhere `` , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` eva `` phd f: oh grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just want to approach it . grad b: so i mean , does this capture , like , where do you put `` exchange money `` is an errand , right ? but what about uh grad c: yep . professor d: mm - hmm grad b: so , like `` go to a movie `` is now entertainment , `` dine out `` is phd f: socializing , i guess . professor d: no , i i well , i dunno . let let well , we 'll put it somewhere , grad b: so i mean right . professor d: but but um i would say that if `` dine out `` is a special c uh if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment . grad b: yeah . professor d: and we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about `` well , you 're you know this is going over a meal time , do you wan na stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's different . that 's that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of `` en passant , `` right . grad b: right . grad c: that goes with the `` energy depletion `` function , blech . grad b: yeah . professor d: right , yeah . grad c: ok , `` endpoint `` . grad b: `` tourist needs food , badly `` professor d: right . grad c: `` endpoint `` is pretty clear . um , `` mode `` , uh , i have found three , `` drive there `` , `` walk there `` uh or `` be driven `` , which means bus , taxi , bart . professor d: ok . grad c: yeah . yep . professor d: obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system does n't have any public transport this the planner system does n't have any public transport in it yet . grad c: so this granularity would suffice , i think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation . grad b: h how much of heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? i mean in terms of the interesting bits . there 's lots of bits where you do n't really i 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so i do n't remember , but . i mean , like the sort of the tourist - y bits professor d: mm - well , grad c: everywhere . grad b: is it like professor d: you ca n't get to the philosophers ' way very well , grad b: yeah . professor d: but , i mean there are hikes that you ca n't get to , but grad b: ok . grad c: yeah . professor d: but i think other things you can , if i remember right . grad a: so is like `` biking there `` part of like `` driving there `` , grad c: yeah , um we actually biking should be should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component . grad a: or ? grad c: so . professor d: oh ! undergrad e: mmm g that 's good . grad c: um . professor d: put it in . grad c: bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic i mean is this realistic ? i mean grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , we can leave it out , i guess . grad b: yeah . grad c: we can we can sort of uh , drive grad b: i would i would lump it with `` walk `` because hills matter . grad c: yeah . grad b: right ? you know . things like that . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . skateboards right , anyway . phd f: right . professor d: scooters , grad c: yep . professor d: right ? grad c: ok , `` length `` is um , you wan na get this over with as fast as possible , professor d: alright . grad c: you wan na use some part of what of the time you have . um , they can . but we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time . professor d: ye grad b: hmm . grad c: you know , they wan na do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh you know the necessary and plus time . and um and y you know , if we feel that they wan na do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . so , stretch out that visit for that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: wow it seems like this would be really hard to guess . i mean , on the part of the system . it seems like it i mean you 're you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ? professor d: w well grad c: th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we we hand over these parameters if we make if we have a feeling that they are important . grad b: overrider professor d: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask . professor d: and grad b: ok . professor d: and par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you ca n't figure it out , then you ask . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: but hopefully you do n't ask you know , a all these things all the time . grad b: yeah . professor d: or eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking . grad b: yeah . right . yeah . grad c: and if no no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gon na ask for it . grad b: yeah . grad c: y so and i like the idea that , you know , sort of jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: if you wan na simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? and , timing , uh , uh , length would definitely be part of it , `` costs `` , `` little money , some money , lots of money `` ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: actually , maybe uh f { comment } uh so , f yeah , ok . hmm ? grad b: you could say `` some `` in there . phd f: i must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . um maybe it seems like appropriate if i go to las vegas . well but i decide k kind of how much money uh i 'm willing to lose . but a i as a tourist , i 'll just paying what 's what 's more or less is required . professor d: well , no . i think there are there 're different things where you have a ch choice , undergrad e: mmm . grad b: yeah . professor d: for example , uh this t interacts with `` do am i do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? `` grad b: dinner . professor d: or uh , you know , if if you 're going to the opera are you gon na l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery phd f: the best seat or or right . professor d: or , you know , grad b: ok . so professor d: whatever ? s so i think there are a variety of things in which um tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . another one , grad b: yeah . professor d: you know . undergrad e: right . phd f: right , that 's true . grad c: the what what my sort of sentiment is they 're well , i i once had to write a a a a charter , a carter for a a student organization . and they had wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . and i looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a and i wrote in there `` en - enough `` people have to be there . and it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people . grad b: yeah . grad c: and if you go to turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say `` how much cheese do you want ? `` and they say `` ah , enough . `` and the and the this used all over the place . because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and um so the middle part is always sort of the the golden way , right ? so you can s you can be really make it as cheap as possible , or you can say `` i want , er , you know , i do n't care `` grad b: money is no object . mm - hmm . grad c: money is no object , professor d: yeah . grad c: or you say `` i just want to spend enough `` . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount . grad b: yeah . grad c: but , then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . but well , this is my first guess , grad b: i mean y yeah . grad c: in much the same way as how how d you know should the route be ? should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: no steep inclinations ? go the normal way ? whatever that again means , er or do you does the person wan na rough it ? grad b: mm - hmm . i mean th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? you know `` i want to go there and i do n't care if it 's really hard . `` or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . `` i wan na go there and i insist on it being the hard way . `` professor d: right . grad b: right ? you know , so i assume we 're going for the first interpretation , undergrad e: right . grad b: right ? something like i 'll go th i mean i 'd li i dunno . it 's different from thing to professor d: no , i think he was going for the second one ar actually . grad b: yeah ? i i professor d: anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: absolutely . grad c: well , this is all sort of um , top of my head . grad b: yeah . grad c: no no research behind that . um `` object information `` , `` do i do i wan na know anything about that object ? `` is either true or false . and . if i care about it being open , accessible or not , i do n't think there 's any middle ground there . um , either i wan na know where it is or not , i wan na know about it 's history or not , or , um i wan na know about what it 's good for or not . maybe one could put scales in there , too . so i wan na know a l lot about it . professor d: yeah , now ob ok , i 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gon na say ? grad c: one could put scales in there . so i wan na know a lot about the history , just a bit . professor d: yeah , right well y i w if we w right . so `` object `` becomes `` entity `` , right ? grad c: yep , that 's true . professor d: yeah , but we do n't have to do it now . grad c: yep . that was the wrong shortcut anyhow . professor d: and we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or or or something very close to it is going to be uh going to be enough . and undergrad e: still wrong . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: alright , so um so i think the order of things is that um , robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . and grad c: what , well this is the part that professor d: huh ? grad c: this is the part that needs the work . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , so right , so so , um in parallel , uh three things are going to happen . uh robert and eva and bhaskara are gon na actually build a belief - net that that , um , has cpt 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . and fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gon na start thinking a about uh what constructions we want to elicit . and then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit grad b: d do you mean do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? semantically speaking , eh ? professor d: well , yes . grad b: ok . professor d: both . uh , and though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ? grad b: right . sure . professor d: and and so uh grad b: i mean from my point of view i 'm i 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know professor d: well that too , grad b: ok . professor d: but um you know if th if we in if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order . grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever , grad b: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: um w you know , whatever form they use is fine . grad b: ok . professor d: but i i think that probably we 're gon na try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we do we want them to uh do direc grad b: ok . professor d: you know , um , `` caused motion `` , i do n't know , something like that . grad b: ok . professor d: uh but , eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and i have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that . grad b: got it . yeah . uh yeah . ok . professor d: but uh grad c: well , i will tell you the german tourist data . grad b: ok . grad c: because i have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty d v grad b: ok . grad c: um if you grad b: is that roughly the equivalent of of what i 've seen in english or is it grad c: no , not at all . grad b: ok . grad c: dialogues . smartkom grad b: ok . grad c: smartkom human . wizard of oz . grad b: ok . same ok , that . got it . like what what have i got now ? i mean i have uh what what i 'm loo what i those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with fey ? grad c: a little bit of data , i grad b: is that what it is ? or ? grad c: with nothing . grad b: just talking into a box and not hearing anything back . professor d: no , no . grad c: yep . grad b: ok . grad c: yep . some data i collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when . grad b: ok . ok . grad c: nothing to write home about . grad b: ok . grad c: and um the see this this this uh ontology node is probably something that i will try to expand . once we have the full ontology api , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? and hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know or the grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: right . grad c: in terms of uh professor d: right , but we 're not expecting keith to actually build a parser . grad b: right , right . grad c: no , no , no , no , no . professor d: ok . we are expecting johno to build a parser , grad c: uh , this is yes . grad b: by the end of the summer , too . professor d: but that 's a no . grad c: no . professor d: no . uh he 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now . grad c: but it 's sort of it 's grad b: right . hmm . still , pretty formidable actually . professor d: eh - absolutely . uh limited . i mean , you know , the idea is is , grad b: yeah . professor d: well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . but it 's not popular it 's only p only grad b: right , right . existence proof , you know . set up the infrastructure , professor d: right . it 's only popula grad b: yeah . professor d: right . grad b: um sometime , i have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions i 'm looking for . i mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , i saw y things from sort of as general as argument structure constructions . oh , you know , i have to do verb phrase . i have to do uh uh unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in uh uh instantiate that . on the other hand i have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like `` get `` plus path expression for , you know , `` how d ho how do i get there ? `` , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: `` how do i get in ? `` , `` how do i get away ? `` professor d: right . grad b: and all that kind of stuff . um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions professor d: absolutely . grad b: and it you know it 's it 's sort of like anything goes . like professor d: ok , so this is i think we 're gon na mainly work on with george . grad b: ok . professor d: ok , and hi let me f th say what i think is is so the idea is uh first of all i misspoke when i said we thought you should do the constructions . cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . so what i yeah , ok , so what what i meant was `` do a first cut at `` . grad b: er that 's what yeah , yeah . professor d: ok , because uh we do wan na get them r u perfectly but i think we 're gon na have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact . grad b: of course . right , exactly . now it w we talked about this before , right . and i i me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh i do n't know , ten , over the summer , professor d: yeah . grad b: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah . professor d: right . so the idea is going to be to do sort of like nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom so you can do f you know , f f uh have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's gon na be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or or or something like that . grad b: yeah . sure . yeah . professor d: so that the the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a some sort of lattice of constructions , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: so some lexical and some phrasal , and and , you know , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances . grad b: mm - hmm . yeah . professor d: and so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things . grad b: mm - hmm . sure . ok . but i mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh of analysis , you know , these do n't necessarily have to be more complex than like the `` out of `` construction in the bcp paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something . professor d: correct . oh yeah yeah . v a half a page is is what we 'd like . grad b: yeah . professor d: and if if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it , grad b: yeah . professor d: but grad b: for the first cut , that should be fine , yeah . professor d: yeah . grad c: we could sit down and think of sort of the the ideal speaker utterances , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and i mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , you know , as as the smartkom people have . this is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so the the `` how do i get to x ? `` , grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , that 's definitely gon na be uh , a major one . grad b: yeah . that 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , yeah . grad c: yep . professor d: right . grad c: `` where is x ? `` might be another one which is not too complicated . grad b: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and um `` tell me something about x . `` grad b: yeah . grad c: and hey , that 's that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality . professor d: ye - right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest . grad b: yeah . grad c: no , we can w throw in an `` out of film `` construction if you want to , but professor d: no , no , no . well the th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right . grad c: ok . professor d: ok , i th we done ? grad c: i have one bit of news . professor d: good . grad c: um , the action planner guy has wrote has written a a p lengthy proposal on how he wants to do the action planning . professor d: good . grad c: and i responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . and professor d: `` action planning `` meaning `` discourse modeling `` ? grad c: yes . and i tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager , professor d: right . grad c: and would n't it make sense to do this here too ? professor d: right . grad c: and also rainer m malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of june . professor d: uh - huh , i 'll be gone . grad c: yeah . he - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town . professor d: sure , ok . grad c: and um m making me incapable of going to naacl , for which i had funding . but . no , no pittsburg this year . grad b: hmm . grad c: when is the uh santa barbara ? professor d: s grad c: who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . that 's something i will would sort of enjoy . professor d: probably should go . that was that 's one you should probably go to . grad c: yep . grad b: how much does it cost ? grad c: there 's grad b: i have n't planned to go . professor d: uh , probably we can uh pay for it . grad b: ok . professor d: um a student rate should n't be very high . so , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll we 'll pay for it . grad b: right . sure . undergrad e: then you can go . professor d: i mean i i do n't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment , grad b: ok . professor d: but it probably is . ok , great . grad b: thanks .

a detailed diagram of the eva belief-net was presented and some of the intermediate nodes and their properties were discussed in depth . some of the key features and properties are : `` go-there '' , which is binary , and defined by the user , situation , ontology and discourse models ; `` timing '' ( current/next tour ) ; `` reason '' ( business , sight-seeing , socialising ) ; `` transport '' ; `` length of tour '' ; `` costs '' ; `` entity '' ( open , accessible ) etc .

what was said about the data collection participants ? </s> grad c: now can you give me the uh remote t ? professor d: ok , so eva , co uh could you read your numbers ? grad a: go ahead and read . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: alright . professor d: yeah , let 's get started . um hopefully nancy will come , if not , she wo n't . grad b: uh , robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every uh , it seems to have about at two minute grad c: yeah , i 've i uh it 's not that i did n't try . grad b: ok . grad c: and um i i told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just does n't obey my commands . grad b: ok . grad c: it has a mind . grad b: got it . grad c: but i i just you know , sort of keep on wiggling . undergrad e: wants to conserve . grad b: yeah , ok . grad c: but uh we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it does n't happen . we 'll see . should we plunge right into it ? professor d: yeah . grad c: so , would you like to professor d: i think so . grad c: so what i 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this side . commented and what they 're about and sort of the properties we may um give them . and here are the uh tasks to be implemented via our data collection . so all of these tasks the reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . and analogously for example , here we have our eva um intention . and these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and that may or may not be a problem . we can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so trying to im um implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever . professor d: right , right . grad c: but i think that might be overdoing it a little . professor d: so yeah . so let me pop up a level . and uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . so what we 're gon na do today is two related things . uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . and decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gon na only have to choose parameters , but you know , a fairly large set of parameters . so to do that , we need to do two things . one of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . but we are n't gon na do the probability stuff today . technical stuff we 'll do uh another day . probably next week . but we are gon na worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . and we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with fey on what there should be in the dialogues . so one of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh in here , and have them actually record like this . uh record dialogues more or less . and depending on what fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things . grad c: well how people phrase different intentions more or less , professor d: so fo - v yeah people with the phrase them grad c: huh ? professor d: and so uh for , you know , keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . so what robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh things that that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . so the uh uh on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . so if if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . and he has a handout . grad c: yeah . maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates . professor d: yeah . grad c: um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . any comments i can can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly . undergrad e: m yes . grad c: let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all . grad a: ok . grad c: or have you heard about it ? grad a: not that much you did n't . grad c: no . ok . we were gon na put this in front of people . they give us some information on themselves . grad a: ok . grad c: then then they will read uh a task where lots of german words are sort of thrown in between . and um and they have to read isolated proper names and these change professor d: s i do n't see a release grad c: no , this is not the release form . this is the speaker information form . professor d: got it . ok , fine . ok . grad c: the release form is over there in that box . professor d: alright , fair enough . grad c: and um and then they gon na have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . they they pick a couple , say three uh uh six as a matter of fact . six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in heidelberg or traveling someplace and um and they have a map . grad b: hmm . grad c: like this . very sketchy , simplified map . and they can take notes on that map . and then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything . grad a: ok . grad c: and um grad b: this is a fictional system obviously , grad c: the comp yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you , grad b: huh . grad c: that 's fey . undergrad e: i 've i understand everything . professor d: and she does know everything . undergrad e: yes i do . grad c: and she has a way of making this machine talk . so she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . so if you ask `` how do i get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here `` in order to get to the castle you do `` grad b: yeah . grad c: ok ? and um and then after three tasks the system breaks down . and fey comes on the phone as a human operator . and says `` sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . `` and we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human . grad a: ok . huh . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: that 's the data collection . and um and fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? something ? undergrad e: yeah . grad c: and um and they 're r ready uh to roll . undergrad e: and more and more every day . grad c: and we 're gon na start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ? undergrad e: tomorrow , well we do n't know for sure . because we do n't know whether that person is coming or not , grad c: ok . around four - ish . undergrad e: but grad c: and um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . um behind our backs . but professor d: well , there are these uh uh oh , i see , we have to yeah , it 's tricky . we 'll let 's let we 'll do that off - line , ok . grad c: yeah , but i i i it 's happening . david and and jane and and lila are working on that as we speak . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . that was the uh the data collection in a nutshell . and um i can report a so i did this but i also tried to do this so if i click on here , is n't this wonderful ? we get to the uh uh belief - net just focusing on on the g go - there node . uh analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and what w what happened is that um design - wise i 'd sort of n noticed that we can we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub go - there user go - there situation nodes . so i came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . how much will he is he willing to spend ? or can spend . being the same at this just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is you know charging tons of dollars for admission or its gon na g cost a lot of t e whatever . twenty - two million to fly to international space station , you know . just not all people can do that . professor d: right . grad c: so , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these uh this this intermediate level um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have um then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um i can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - s everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - u , and whatever we specify for the so - called `` keith node `` , or the discourse , what comes from the um parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the d and the ontology to the sub - o node . and um one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does n't make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . but this makes the design thing fairly simple . and um now all w that 's left to do then is the cpg 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . and um ok . and once um bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gon na end up doing . you get involved in that process too . and um and for now uh the the question is `` how much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` so um , one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` visit the zoo tomorrow `` , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now but later . professor d: right . yeah . yeah , so let 's s uh s see i th i think that from one point of view , uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d that , um in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so i th i it seems to me that we ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . and um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . um are all big - ish things that um you know have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine . grad c: hmm . hmm , hmm . yeah the the reason why we did it that way , as a as a reminder , is uh no person is gon na do all of them . professor d: and grad c: they 're just gon na select u um , according to their preferences . professor d: yeah , yeah . grad c: `` ah , yeah , i usually visit zoos , or i usually visit castles , or i usually `` and then you pick that one . professor d: right , no no , but but s th point is to to y to build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing . undergrad e: they 're redundant . professor d: t to build a system that um had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . and the speech people , for example , are gon na do better if they if things come up uh repeatedly . now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . so , all i 'm saying is i th there 's there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and i think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know and each person is only gon na do it once , so you do n't have to worry about them being bored , so if if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle . now of course you have this i guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they would n't talk about with a university and stuff , um but i guess i 'm i uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . you know , less variation . but i do n't know what other people think about this in terms of grad b: so i do n't exactly understand professor d: uh grad b: like i i i guess we 're trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? but who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ? professor d: oh , well , uh th i think there are two places where it comes up . one is uh in the th these people who are gon na take this and and try to do speech with it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: uh lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things . grad b: ok . professor d: that 's one . grad b: so we would rather just ask uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places . professor d: bigger y yeah thi well this is a question for grad b: and that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . so this is a question for you , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and , you know , if we if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . so , um grad c: yeah , the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities . um but i think y i i got the point and i think i like it . we can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion . so , `` go to place `` and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` yeah this is on that `` go to big - ish place `` , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: this is what i would do . `` and then we have the `` fix `` thing , and then maybe `` do something the other day `` thing , so . my question is i guess , to some extent , we should y we just have to try it out and see if it works . it would be challenging , in in a sense , to try to make it so so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of ok , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days . professor d: well yeah . grad c: so they make these decisions , professor d: well i think th th grad c: `` can i go there tomorrow ? `` professor d: yeah . grad c: or you know influences grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . well , i think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . so , the uh system could say , `` well , uh we 'd like to to set up your program for two days in heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . so there th i i in i mean in i th i i 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . yeah , but i think this is part of the instructor 's job . and that can be done , sort of to say , `` ok now we 've picked these six tasks . `` `` now you have you can call the system and you have two days . `` professor d: i 'm sorry . grad c: and th w professor d: no , we have to help we have to decide . fey will p carry out whatever we decide . but we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . that 's what we 're gon na talk about t yeah . grad c: yep , yep . phd f: but these are two different scenarios entirely . i mean , one is a planner the other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot grad c: yeah , but th the i do n't i 'm not really interested in sort of `` phase planning `` capabilities . but it 's more the how do people phrase these planning requests ? so are we gon na masquerade the system as this as you said simple response system , `` i have one question i get one response `` , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . and a i w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references . professor d: well , so keith , what do you think ? grad b: well , um it seems that yeah , i mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . i mean you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic more interesting linguistic stuff . but i mean i 'm i 'm not really sure uh , because i do n't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet . grad c: i mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh is was faced with exactly this kind of setup . grad b: i started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing . grad c: and grad b: i thought i 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . and . grad c: oh , ok . that was the first subject . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: first one was n't very good . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: so um , i grad c: um , it is already with this it got pretty with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex . undergrad e: although grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: maybe i suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get sort of run through ten or so subjects grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and then take a breather , and see whether we wan na make it more complex or not , depending on what what sort of results we 're getting . grad b: right . yeah . it in fact , um , i am just you know today , next couple days gon na start really diving into this data . i 've basically looked at one of the files you know one of these l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and i looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , `` alright , well , let 's start here . `` um . so i have n't really gone into the , you know looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . so i do n't really right , i mean , once i start doing that i 'll have more to say about this kind of thing . professor d: ok . grad c: and y and always professor d: but well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh with the simple cases for quite a while . grad b: yeah . professor d: although , obviously th so so that sa s does suggest that uh , now , i have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant . grad b: yeah , yeah . professor d: that that it was it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing . grad b: i um i did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them . professor d: yeah . grad b: but yeah , yeah i noticed that , too . professor d: so , we we we wan na do more than that . grad c: and with this we 're getting more . no question . professor d: ok . right . so grad c: uh w do we wan na get going beyond more , which is sort of the professor d: well , ok , so let 's let 's take let 's i i think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh a batch . ok . and , uh , fey , how long is it gon na be till you have ten subjects ? couple days ? or thr f a a week ? or i do n't i do n't have a feel for th undergrad e: um i can yeah , i mean i s i think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever . professor d: well , it 's it 's up to you , i mean i j i uh e we do n't have any huge time pressure . it 's just when you have t undergrad e: how long will it be ? professor d: yeah . undergrad e: um i i would say maybe two weeks . professor d: oh , ok . so let 's do this . let 's plan next monday , ok , to have a review of what we have so far . grad c: this means audio , but professor d: and huh ? grad c: no transcriptions of course , yeah . professor d: no , we wo n't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and i do n't know if , fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . i mean we could lis uh just sit here and listen to it all . are you gon na have the audio on the web site ? ok . grad c: until we reach the gigabyte thing and david johnson s ki kills me . and we 're gon na put it on the web site . yeah . professor d: oh , we could get i mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? i mean it 's it 's not like ok . so , we 'll take care of david johnson . grad c: no , he uh , he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful , professor d: ok . undergrad e: take care of him . professor d: ok . grad c: so s professor d: alright . so we 'll buy a disk . but anyway , so , um , if you if you can think of a way to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or or something uh , make your make notes or something that that this is , you know , something worth looking at . and other than that , yeah i guess we 'll just have to uh , listen although i guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? roughly . undergrad e: well , i guess . i 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take . grad c: the reading task is a lot shorter . that was cut by fifty percent . and the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people . professor d: right . no , we do n't care about that at all . grad c: so . it 's actually like five minutes dialogue . professor d: i b my guess is it 's gon na be ten . grad c: ten minutes is long . professor d: people i understand , but people people you know uh undergrad e: it feels like a long time grad c: yeah . undergrad e: but . grad c: it feels like forever when you 're doing it , professor d: yeah . grad c: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: could be . ok . i was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and whatever . whatever it is we 'll we 'll deal with it . grad c: yeah , it 's not and it 's fun . professor d: ok , so that 'll be that 'll be um on on the web page . grad c: ok . professor d: that 's great . um but anyway yeah , so i think it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . and then if we want to uh get them to start doing uh multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and you know , any of that stuff . uh you know , `` which things would you like to do tuesday morning ? `` grad c: yeah . professor d: so yeah i th that seems pretty straight forward . undergrad e: but were you saying that grad c: i need those back by the way . grad b: ok . professor d: ok . undergrad e: yeah . grad c: that 's for professor d: i 'm sorry , fey , what ? undergrad e: that w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? professor d: that 's what i was suggesting for the first round , yeah . undergrad e: ok . grad b: so rather than having zoo and castle . undergrad e: and then , i mean , they could be alternate versions of the same if you wanted data on different constructions . professor d: they could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but uh but undergrad e: like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the professor d: you could , but i but i i i think in the short run , grad c: and no , th the per the person do n't get it . i mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - a and three tasks for part - b a professor d: right . yeah . undergrad e: well no , they could still choose . they just would n't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle . grad c: exactly . this is limiting the choices , but yeah . right . ok , sorry . but um i i think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say `` ok , this is what i would actually do . `` undergrad e: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . undergrad e: he was vicious . grad c: ok , we got ta we got ta disallow uh traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of undergrad e: i mean there they are significantly different , but . grad c: but no , they 're i mean they 're sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different undergrad e: yeah , i guess so . grad c: and , um , these are just places where you you enter um , much like here . professor d: yeah . grad c: but we can uh professor d: yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , `` attend a theater , symphony or opera `` is is a group , and `` tour the university , castle or zoo `` , grad c: mm - hmm yeah . professor d: all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` um aspect about the way you would go to them . and uh , the movie theater is probably also uh e is a `` attend `` et cetera . grad c: attend , yeah . professor d: so it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things , grad c: hmm , mm - hmm . professor d: and then , what one would expect is that that the sentence types would uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect . grad b: mm - hmm . phd f: but i mean i it seem that um there is a difference between going to see something , and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` professor d: oh , absolutely . yeah . phd f: uh @ @ function , yeah . grad c: yeah , this is where yeah th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff yeah . ok . but this is open . so since people gon na still pick something , we we 're not gon na get any significant amount of redundancy . and for reasons , we do n't want it , really , in that sense . and um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with or with a computer . and so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . we 're not gon na do much statistical stuff with it . professor d: we do n't have enough . grad c: no . but it seems like since we since we are getting towards uh subject uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a uh sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before fey t takes off to chicago . undergrad e: that means that one hundred people have to be interested . grad b: good luck . undergrad e: yeah . professor d: well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far , undergrad e: yeah . professor d: right ? undergrad e: yeah . professor d: so we yeah we do n't know how many we can get next door at the uh shelter for example . grad b: hmm . professor d: uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few . grad b: yeah . that 's right . professor d: yeah . so , alright , so let 's go let 's go back then , to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing . grad c: yep . professor d: do do people think that , you know this is is gon na um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ? grad c: okay , in terms of decision nodes ? i mean , go - there is is a yes or no . professor d: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yep . grad c: i 'm also interested in th in this `` property `` uh line here , so if you look at sorry , look at that um , timing was um i have these three . do we need a final differentiation there ? now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour . grad b: what 's this idea of `` next tour `` ? i mean grad c: it 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and you can do something immediately , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: you could sort of tag it on to that tour grad b: or ok . grad c: or you can say this is something i would do s i wan na do sometime l in my life , basically . grad b: ok . ok . so so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever , professor d: right . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel . grad b: ok . got it . professor d: i mean if you if if you wanted precise about it , uh you know , grad b: got it . professor d: uh and i think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives . grad b: sure , sure , sure . professor d: you know , `` ok , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off grad b: ok . professor d: and `` phd f: so all tours b a tour happens only within one day ? professor d: yes . grad b: ok . professor d: it phd f: so the next tour will be tomorrow ? professor d: right . for this . grad b: ok . just to be totally clear . ok . grad c: well , my visit to prague there were some nights where i never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to think . grad b: you just spend the whole time at u fleku or something , phd f: yeah . professor d: i w we will we will not ask you more . grad b: ri undergrad e: right . phd f: right . undergrad e: that 's enough . grad c: i do n't know . what is the uh the the english co uh um cognate if you want , for `` sankt nimmerlandstag `` ? grad b: keine ahnung grad c: sort of `` we 'll do it on when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen . professor d: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad c: do you have an expression ? probably you sh grad b: not that i know of actually . grad c: yeah , when hell yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over . professor d: yeah . grad c: so maybe that should be another property in there . phd f: right . professor d: yeah . yeah . undergrad e: never . professor d: no . grad c: ok . um , the reason why why do we go there in the first place ie uh it 's either uh for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . entertainment is a good one in there , i think . i agree . grad b: so , business is supposed to uh , be sort of it like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ? grad c: yep . grad b: ok . um . grad c: i mean this w this is uh an old uh johno thing . he sort of had it in there . `` who is the the tour is the person ? `` so it might be a tourist , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , or or both . grad b: yeah . yeah , i mean like for example my my father is about to travel to prague . grad c: yep . grad b: he 'll be there for two weeks . he is going to uh he 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things . grad c: yep . professor d: mmm . grad c: yep . professor d: sure . right . grad c: he would phd f: what ab what do you have in mind in terms of um socializing ? what kind of activities ? grad c: eh , just meeting people , basically . `` i want to meet someone somewhere `` , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` eva `` phd f: oh grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just want to approach it . grad b: so i mean , does this capture , like , where do you put `` exchange money `` is an errand , right ? but what about uh grad c: yep . professor d: mm - hmm grad b: so , like `` go to a movie `` is now entertainment , `` dine out `` is phd f: socializing , i guess . professor d: no , i i well , i dunno . let let well , we 'll put it somewhere , grad b: so i mean right . professor d: but but um i would say that if `` dine out `` is a special c uh if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment . grad b: yeah . professor d: and we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about `` well , you 're you know this is going over a meal time , do you wan na stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's different . that 's that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of `` en passant , `` right . grad b: right . grad c: that goes with the `` energy depletion `` function , blech . grad b: yeah . professor d: right , yeah . grad c: ok , `` endpoint `` . grad b: `` tourist needs food , badly `` professor d: right . grad c: `` endpoint `` is pretty clear . um , `` mode `` , uh , i have found three , `` drive there `` , `` walk there `` uh or `` be driven `` , which means bus , taxi , bart . professor d: ok . grad c: yeah . yep . professor d: obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system does n't have any public transport this the planner system does n't have any public transport in it yet . grad c: so this granularity would suffice , i think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation . grad b: h how much of heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? i mean in terms of the interesting bits . there 's lots of bits where you do n't really i 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so i do n't remember , but . i mean , like the sort of the tourist - y bits professor d: mm - well , grad c: everywhere . grad b: is it like professor d: you ca n't get to the philosophers ' way very well , grad b: yeah . professor d: but , i mean there are hikes that you ca n't get to , but grad b: ok . grad c: yeah . professor d: but i think other things you can , if i remember right . grad a: so is like `` biking there `` part of like `` driving there `` , grad c: yeah , um we actually biking should be should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component . grad a: or ? grad c: so . professor d: oh ! undergrad e: mmm g that 's good . grad c: um . professor d: put it in . grad c: bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic i mean is this realistic ? i mean grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , we can leave it out , i guess . grad b: yeah . grad c: we can we can sort of uh , drive grad b: i would i would lump it with `` walk `` because hills matter . grad c: yeah . grad b: right ? you know . things like that . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . skateboards right , anyway . phd f: right . professor d: scooters , grad c: yep . professor d: right ? grad c: ok , `` length `` is um , you wan na get this over with as fast as possible , professor d: alright . grad c: you wan na use some part of what of the time you have . um , they can . but we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time . professor d: ye grad b: hmm . grad c: you know , they wan na do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh you know the necessary and plus time . and um and y you know , if we feel that they wan na do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . so , stretch out that visit for that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: wow it seems like this would be really hard to guess . i mean , on the part of the system . it seems like it i mean you 're you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ? professor d: w well grad c: th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we we hand over these parameters if we make if we have a feeling that they are important . grad b: overrider professor d: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask . professor d: and grad b: ok . professor d: and par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you ca n't figure it out , then you ask . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: but hopefully you do n't ask you know , a all these things all the time . grad b: yeah . professor d: or eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking . grad b: yeah . right . yeah . grad c: and if no no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gon na ask for it . grad b: yeah . grad c: y so and i like the idea that , you know , sort of jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: if you wan na simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? and , timing , uh , uh , length would definitely be part of it , `` costs `` , `` little money , some money , lots of money `` ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: actually , maybe uh f { comment } uh so , f yeah , ok . hmm ? grad b: you could say `` some `` in there . phd f: i must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . um maybe it seems like appropriate if i go to las vegas . well but i decide k kind of how much money uh i 'm willing to lose . but a i as a tourist , i 'll just paying what 's what 's more or less is required . professor d: well , no . i think there are there 're different things where you have a ch choice , undergrad e: mmm . grad b: yeah . professor d: for example , uh this t interacts with `` do am i do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? `` grad b: dinner . professor d: or uh , you know , if if you 're going to the opera are you gon na l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery phd f: the best seat or or right . professor d: or , you know , grad b: ok . so professor d: whatever ? s so i think there are a variety of things in which um tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . another one , grad b: yeah . professor d: you know . undergrad e: right . phd f: right , that 's true . grad c: the what what my sort of sentiment is they 're well , i i once had to write a a a a charter , a carter for a a student organization . and they had wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . and i looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a and i wrote in there `` en - enough `` people have to be there . and it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people . grad b: yeah . grad c: and if you go to turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say `` how much cheese do you want ? `` and they say `` ah , enough . `` and the and the this used all over the place . because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and um so the middle part is always sort of the the golden way , right ? so you can s you can be really make it as cheap as possible , or you can say `` i want , er , you know , i do n't care `` grad b: money is no object . mm - hmm . grad c: money is no object , professor d: yeah . grad c: or you say `` i just want to spend enough `` . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount . grad b: yeah . grad c: but , then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . but well , this is my first guess , grad b: i mean y yeah . grad c: in much the same way as how how d you know should the route be ? should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: no steep inclinations ? go the normal way ? whatever that again means , er or do you does the person wan na rough it ? grad b: mm - hmm . i mean th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? you know `` i want to go there and i do n't care if it 's really hard . `` or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . `` i wan na go there and i insist on it being the hard way . `` professor d: right . grad b: right ? you know , so i assume we 're going for the first interpretation , undergrad e: right . grad b: right ? something like i 'll go th i mean i 'd li i dunno . it 's different from thing to professor d: no , i think he was going for the second one ar actually . grad b: yeah ? i i professor d: anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: absolutely . grad c: well , this is all sort of um , top of my head . grad b: yeah . grad c: no no research behind that . um `` object information `` , `` do i do i wan na know anything about that object ? `` is either true or false . and . if i care about it being open , accessible or not , i do n't think there 's any middle ground there . um , either i wan na know where it is or not , i wan na know about it 's history or not , or , um i wan na know about what it 's good for or not . maybe one could put scales in there , too . so i wan na know a l lot about it . professor d: yeah , now ob ok , i 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gon na say ? grad c: one could put scales in there . so i wan na know a lot about the history , just a bit . professor d: yeah , right well y i w if we w right . so `` object `` becomes `` entity `` , right ? grad c: yep , that 's true . professor d: yeah , but we do n't have to do it now . grad c: yep . that was the wrong shortcut anyhow . professor d: and we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or or or something very close to it is going to be uh going to be enough . and undergrad e: still wrong . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: alright , so um so i think the order of things is that um , robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . and grad c: what , well this is the part that professor d: huh ? grad c: this is the part that needs the work . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , so right , so so , um in parallel , uh three things are going to happen . uh robert and eva and bhaskara are gon na actually build a belief - net that that , um , has cpt 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . and fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gon na start thinking a about uh what constructions we want to elicit . and then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit grad b: d do you mean do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? semantically speaking , eh ? professor d: well , yes . grad b: ok . professor d: both . uh , and though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ? grad b: right . sure . professor d: and and so uh grad b: i mean from my point of view i 'm i 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know professor d: well that too , grad b: ok . professor d: but um you know if th if we in if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order . grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever , grad b: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: um w you know , whatever form they use is fine . grad b: ok . professor d: but i i think that probably we 're gon na try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we do we want them to uh do direc grad b: ok . professor d: you know , um , `` caused motion `` , i do n't know , something like that . grad b: ok . professor d: uh but , eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and i have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that . grad b: got it . yeah . uh yeah . ok . professor d: but uh grad c: well , i will tell you the german tourist data . grad b: ok . grad c: because i have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty d v grad b: ok . grad c: um if you grad b: is that roughly the equivalent of of what i 've seen in english or is it grad c: no , not at all . grad b: ok . grad c: dialogues . smartkom grad b: ok . grad c: smartkom human . wizard of oz . grad b: ok . same ok , that . got it . like what what have i got now ? i mean i have uh what what i 'm loo what i those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with fey ? grad c: a little bit of data , i grad b: is that what it is ? or ? grad c: with nothing . grad b: just talking into a box and not hearing anything back . professor d: no , no . grad c: yep . grad b: ok . grad c: yep . some data i collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when . grad b: ok . ok . grad c: nothing to write home about . grad b: ok . grad c: and um the see this this this uh ontology node is probably something that i will try to expand . once we have the full ontology api , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? and hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know or the grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: right . grad c: in terms of uh professor d: right , but we 're not expecting keith to actually build a parser . grad b: right , right . grad c: no , no , no , no , no . professor d: ok . we are expecting johno to build a parser , grad c: uh , this is yes . grad b: by the end of the summer , too . professor d: but that 's a no . grad c: no . professor d: no . uh he 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now . grad c: but it 's sort of it 's grad b: right . hmm . still , pretty formidable actually . professor d: eh - absolutely . uh limited . i mean , you know , the idea is is , grad b: yeah . professor d: well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . but it 's not popular it 's only p only grad b: right , right . existence proof , you know . set up the infrastructure , professor d: right . it 's only popula grad b: yeah . professor d: right . grad b: um sometime , i have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions i 'm looking for . i mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , i saw y things from sort of as general as argument structure constructions . oh , you know , i have to do verb phrase . i have to do uh uh unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in uh uh instantiate that . on the other hand i have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like `` get `` plus path expression for , you know , `` how d ho how do i get there ? `` , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: `` how do i get in ? `` , `` how do i get away ? `` professor d: right . grad b: and all that kind of stuff . um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions professor d: absolutely . grad b: and it you know it 's it 's sort of like anything goes . like professor d: ok , so this is i think we 're gon na mainly work on with george . grad b: ok . professor d: ok , and hi let me f th say what i think is is so the idea is uh first of all i misspoke when i said we thought you should do the constructions . cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . so what i yeah , ok , so what what i meant was `` do a first cut at `` . grad b: er that 's what yeah , yeah . professor d: ok , because uh we do wan na get them r u perfectly but i think we 're gon na have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact . grad b: of course . right , exactly . now it w we talked about this before , right . and i i me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh i do n't know , ten , over the summer , professor d: yeah . grad b: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah . professor d: right . so the idea is going to be to do sort of like nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom so you can do f you know , f f uh have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's gon na be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or or or something like that . grad b: yeah . sure . yeah . professor d: so that the the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a some sort of lattice of constructions , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: so some lexical and some phrasal , and and , you know , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances . grad b: mm - hmm . yeah . professor d: and so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things . grad b: mm - hmm . sure . ok . but i mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh of analysis , you know , these do n't necessarily have to be more complex than like the `` out of `` construction in the bcp paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something . professor d: correct . oh yeah yeah . v a half a page is is what we 'd like . grad b: yeah . professor d: and if if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it , grad b: yeah . professor d: but grad b: for the first cut , that should be fine , yeah . professor d: yeah . grad c: we could sit down and think of sort of the the ideal speaker utterances , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and i mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , you know , as as the smartkom people have . this is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so the the `` how do i get to x ? `` , grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , that 's definitely gon na be uh , a major one . grad b: yeah . that 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , yeah . grad c: yep . professor d: right . grad c: `` where is x ? `` might be another one which is not too complicated . grad b: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and um `` tell me something about x . `` grad b: yeah . grad c: and hey , that 's that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality . professor d: ye - right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest . grad b: yeah . grad c: no , we can w throw in an `` out of film `` construction if you want to , but professor d: no , no , no . well the th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right . grad c: ok . professor d: ok , i th we done ? grad c: i have one bit of news . professor d: good . grad c: um , the action planner guy has wrote has written a a p lengthy proposal on how he wants to do the action planning . professor d: good . grad c: and i responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . and professor d: `` action planning `` meaning `` discourse modeling `` ? grad c: yes . and i tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager , professor d: right . grad c: and would n't it make sense to do this here too ? professor d: right . grad c: and also rainer m malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of june . professor d: uh - huh , i 'll be gone . grad c: yeah . he - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town . professor d: sure , ok . grad c: and um m making me incapable of going to naacl , for which i had funding . but . no , no pittsburg this year . grad b: hmm . grad c: when is the uh santa barbara ? professor d: s grad c: who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . that 's something i will would sort of enjoy . professor d: probably should go . that was that 's one you should probably go to . grad c: yep . grad b: how much does it cost ? grad c: there 's grad b: i have n't planned to go . professor d: uh , probably we can uh pay for it . grad b: ok . professor d: um a student rate should n't be very high . so , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll we 'll pay for it . grad b: right . sure . undergrad e: then you can go . professor d: i mean i i do n't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment , grad b: ok . professor d: but it probably is . ok , great . grad b: thanks .

there are already 30 subjects lined up and more are expected to be recruited off campus . it was agreed that making subjects select from categories of tasks , such as `` big place '' , `` service '' , etc . could provide a better range of data . the duration of each dialogue will probably be no more than 10 minutes .

what is the routine for data collection ? </s> grad c: now can you give me the uh remote t ? professor d: ok , so eva , co uh could you read your numbers ? grad a: go ahead and read . ok . professor d: yeah . grad c: alright . professor d: yeah , let 's get started . um hopefully nancy will come , if not , she wo n't . grad b: uh , robert , do you uh have any way to turn off your uh screensaver on there so that it 's not going off every uh , it seems to have about at two minute grad c: yeah , i 've i uh it 's not that i did n't try . grad b: ok . grad c: and um i i told it to stay on forever and ever , but if it 's not plugged in it just does n't obey my commands . grad b: ok . grad c: it has a mind . grad b: got it . grad c: but i i just you know , sort of keep on wiggling . undergrad e: wants to conserve . grad b: yeah , ok . grad c: but uh we 'll just be m m working on it at intensity so it does n't happen . we 'll see . should we plunge right into it ? professor d: yeah . grad c: so , would you like to professor d: i think so . grad c: so what i 've tried to do here is list all the decision nodes that we have identified on this side . commented and what they 're about and sort of the properties we may um give them . and here are the uh tasks to be implemented via our data collection . so all of these tasks the reading is out of these tasks more or less imply that the user wants to go there , sometime or the other . and analogously for example , here we have our eva um intention . and these are the data tasks where w we can assume the person would like to enter , view or just approach the thing . analogously the same on the object information we can see that , you know , we have sort of created these tasks before we came up with our decision nodes so there 's a lot of things where we have no analogous tasks , and that may or may not be a problem . we can change the tasks slightly if we feel that we should have data for e sort of for every decision node so trying to im um implant the intention of going to a place now , going to a place later on the same tour , or trying to plant the intention of going sometime on the next tour , or the next day or whenever . professor d: right , right . grad c: but i think that might be overdoing it a little . professor d: so yeah . so let me pop up a level . and uh s s make sure that we 're all oriented the same . so what we 're gon na do today is two related things . uh one of them is to work on the semantics of the belief - net which is going to be the main inference engine for thi the system uh making decisions . and decisions are going to turn out to be parameter choices for calls on other modules . so f the natural language understanding thing is uh , we think gon na only have to choose parameters , but you know , a fairly large set of parameters . so to do that , we need to do two things . one of which is figure out what all the choices are , which we 've done a fair amount . then we need to figure out what influences its choices and finally we have to do some technical work on the actual belief relations and presumably estimates of the probabilities and stuff . but we are n't gon na do the probability stuff today . technical stuff we 'll do uh another day . probably next week . but we are gon na worry about all the decisions and the things that pert that contribute to them . and we 're also , sort of uh in the same process , going to work with fey on what there should be in the dialogues . so one of the s steps that 's coming up real soon is to actually get subjects uh in here , and have them actually record like this . uh record dialogues more or less . and depending on what fey sort of provokes them to say , we 'll get information on different things . grad c: well how people phrase different intentions more or less , professor d: so fo - v yeah people with the phrase them grad c: huh ? professor d: and so uh for , you know , keith and people worrying about what constructions people use , uh we have some i we have some ways to affect that by the way the dialogues go . so what robert kindly did , is to lay out a table of the kinds of uh things that that might come up , and , the kinds of decisions . so the uh uh on the left are decision nodes , and discreet values . so if if we 're right , you can get by with um just this middle column worth of decisions , and it 's not all that many , and it 's perfectly feasible technically to build belief - nets that will do that . and he has a handout . grad c: yeah . maybe it was too fast plunging in there , because j we have two updates . professor d: yeah . grad c: um you can look at this if you want , these are what our subject 's going to have to fill out . any comments i can can still be made and the changes will be put in correspondingly . undergrad e: m yes . grad c: let me summarize in two sentences , mainly for eva 's benefit , who probably has not heard about the data collection , at all . grad a: ok . grad c: or have you heard about it ? grad a: not that much you did n't . grad c: no . ok . we were gon na put this in front of people . they give us some information on themselves . grad a: ok . grad c: then then they will read uh a task where lots of german words are sort of thrown in between . and um and they have to read isolated proper names and these change professor d: s i do n't see a release grad c: no , this is not the release form . this is the speaker information form . professor d: got it . ok , fine . ok . grad c: the release form is over there in that box . professor d: alright , fair enough . grad c: and um and then they gon na have to f um um choose from one of these tasks , which are listed here . they they pick a couple , say three uh uh six as a matter of fact . six different things they sort of think they would do if they were in heidelberg or traveling someplace and um and they have a map . grad b: hmm . grad c: like this . very sketchy , simplified map . and they can take notes on that map . and then they call this computer system that works perfectly , and understands everything . grad a: ok . grad c: and um grad b: this is a fictional system obviously , grad c: the comp yeah , the computer system sits right in front of you , grad b: huh . grad c: that 's fey . undergrad e: i 've i understand everything . professor d: and she does know everything . undergrad e: yes i do . grad c: and she has a way of making this machine talk . so she can copy sentences into a window , or type really fast and this machine will use speech synthesis to produce that . so if you ask `` how do i get to the castle `` then a m s several seconds later it 'll come out of here `` in order to get to the castle you do `` grad b: yeah . grad c: ok ? and um and then after three tasks the system breaks down . and fey comes on the phone as a human operator . and says `` sorry the system broke down but let 's continue . `` and we sort of get the idea what people do when they s think they speak to a machine and what people say when they think they speak to a human , or know , or assume they speak to a human . grad a: ok . huh . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: that 's the data collection . and um and fey has some thirty subjects lined up ? something ? undergrad e: yeah . grad c: and um and they 're r ready uh to roll . undergrad e: and more and more every day . grad c: and we 're gon na start tomorrow at three ? four ? one ? undergrad e: tomorrow , well we do n't know for sure . because we do n't know whether that person is coming or not , grad c: ok . around four - ish . undergrad e: but grad c: and um we 're still l looking for a room on the sixth floor because they stole away that conference room . um behind our backs . but professor d: well , there are these uh uh oh , i see , we have to yeah , it 's tricky . we 'll let 's let we 'll do that off - line , ok . grad c: yeah , but i i i it 's happening . david and and jane and and lila are working on that as we speak . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . that was the uh the data collection in a nutshell . and um i can report a so i did this but i also tried to do this so if i click on here , is n't this wonderful ? we get to the uh uh belief - net just focusing on on the g go - there node . uh analogously this would be sort of the reason node and the timing node and so forth . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and what w what happened is that um design - wise i 'd sort of n noticed that we can we still get a lot of errors from a lot of points to one of these sub go - there user go - there situation nodes . so i came up with a couple of additional nodes here where um whether the user is thrifty or not , and what his budget is currently like , is going to result in some financial state of the user . how much will he is he willing to spend ? or can spend . being the same at this just the money available , which may influence us , whether he wants to go there if it is you know charging tons of dollars for admission or its gon na g cost a lot of t e whatever . twenty - two million to fly to international space station , you know . just not all people can do that . professor d: right . grad c: so , and this actually turned out to be pretty key , because having specified sort of these uh this this intermediate level um and sort of noticing that everything that happens here let 's go to our favorite endpoint one is again more or less we have um then the situation nodes contributing to the the endpoint situation node , which contributes to the endpoint and so forth . um i can now sort of draw straight lines from these to here , meaning it g of course goes where the sub - s everything that comes from situation , everything that comes from user goes with the sub - u , and whatever we specify for the so - called `` keith node `` , or the discourse , what comes from the um parser , construction parser , um will contribute to the d and the ontology to the sub - o node . and um one just s sort of has to watch which also final decision node so it does n't make sense t to figure out whether he wants to enter , view or approach an object if he never wants to go there in the first place . but this makes the design thing fairly simple . and um now all w that 's left to do then is the cpg 's , the conditional probabilities , for the likelihood of a person having enough money , actually wanting to go a place if it costs , you know this or that . and um ok . and once um bhaskara has finished his classwork that 's where we 're gon na end up doing . you get involved in that process too . and um and for now uh the the question is `` how much of these decisions do we want to build in explicitly into our data collection ? `` so um , one could sort of think of you know we could call the z see or you know , people who visit the zoo we could s call it `` visit the zoo tomorrow `` , so we have an intention of seeing something , but not now but later . professor d: right . yeah . yeah , so let 's s uh s see i th i think that from one point of view , uh , um , all these places are the same , so that d d that , um in terms of the linguistics and stuff , there may be a few different kinds of places , so i th i it seems to me that we ought to decide you know , what things are k are actually going to matter to us . and um , so the zoo , and the university and the castle , et cetera . um are all big - ish things that um you know have different parts to them , and one of them might be fine . grad c: hmm . hmm , hmm . yeah the the reason why we did it that way , as a as a reminder , is uh no person is gon na do all of them . professor d: and grad c: they 're just gon na select u um , according to their preferences . professor d: yeah , yeah . grad c: `` ah , yeah , i usually visit zoos , or i usually visit castles , or i usually `` and then you pick that one . professor d: right , no no , but but s th point is to to y to build a system that 's got everything in it that might happen you do one thing . undergrad e: they 're redundant . professor d: t to build a system that um had the most data on a relatively confined set of things , you do something else . and the speech people , for example , are gon na do better if they if things come up uh repeatedly . now , of course , if everybody says exactly the same thing then it 's not interesting . so , all i 'm saying is i th there 's there 's a kind of question of what we 're trying t to accomplish . and i think my temptation for the data gathering would be to uh , you know and each person is only gon na do it once , so you do n't have to worry about them being bored , so if if it 's one service , one luxury item , you know , one big - ish place , and so forth and so on , um then my guess is that that the data is going to be easier to handle . now of course you have this i guess possible danger that somehow there 're certain constructions that people use uh when talking about a museum that they would n't talk about with a university and stuff , um but i guess i 'm i uh m my temptation is to go for simpler . you know , less variation . but i do n't know what other people think about this in terms of grad b: so i do n't exactly understand professor d: uh grad b: like i i i guess we 're trying to limit the detail of our ontology or types of places that someone could go , right ? but who is it that has to care about this , or what component of the system ? professor d: oh , well , uh th i think there are two places where it comes up . one is uh in the th these people who are gon na take this and and try to do speech with it . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: uh lots of pronunciations of th of the same thing are going to give you better data than l you know , a few pronunciations of lots more things . grad b: ok . professor d: that 's one . grad b: so we would rather just ask uh have a bunch of people talk about the zoo , uh and assume that that will that the constructions that they use there will give us everything we need to know about these sort of zoo , castle , whatever type things , these bigger places . professor d: bigger y yeah thi well this is a question for grad b: and that way you get the speech data of people saying `` zoo `` over and over again or whatever too . professor d: yeah . yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . so this is a question for you , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and , you know , if we if we do , and we probably will , actually try to uh build a prototype , uh probably we could get by with the prototype only handling a few of them anyway . so , um grad c: yeah , the this was sort of these are all different sort of activities . um but i think y i i got the point and i think i like it . we can do put them in a more hierarchical fashion . so , `` go to place `` and then give them a choice , you know either they 're the symphony type or opera type or the tourist site guide type or the nightclub disco type person and they say `` yeah this is on that `` go to big - ish place `` , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: this is what i would do . `` and then we have the `` fix `` thing , and then maybe `` do something the other day `` thing , so . my question is i guess , to some extent , we should y we just have to try it out and see if it works . it would be challenging , in in a sense , to try to make it so so complex that they even really should schedule , or to plan it , uh , a more complex thing in terms of ok , you know , they should get the feeling that there are these s six things they have to do and they sh can be done maybe in two days . professor d: well yeah . grad c: so they make these decisions , professor d: well i think th th grad c: `` can i go there tomorrow ? `` professor d: yeah . grad c: or you know influences grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yeah . well , i think it 's easy enough to set that up if that 's your expectation . so , the uh system could say , `` well , uh we 'd like to to set up your program for two days in heidelberg , you know , let 's first think about all the things you might like to do . so there th i i in i mean in i th i i 'm sure that if that 's what you did then they would start telling you about that , and then you could get into um various things about ordering , if you wanted . grad c: mm - hmm . yeah . yeah , but i think this is part of the instructor 's job . and that can be done , sort of to say , `` ok now we 've picked these six tasks . `` `` now you have you can call the system and you have two days . `` professor d: i 'm sorry . grad c: and th w professor d: no , we have to help we have to decide . fey will p carry out whatever we decide . but we have to decide you know , what is the appropriate scenario . that 's what we 're gon na talk about t yeah . grad c: yep , yep . phd f: but these are two different scenarios entirely . i mean , one is a planner the other , it kind of give you instructions on the spot grad c: yeah , but th the i do n't i 'm not really interested in sort of `` phase planning `` capabilities . but it 's more the how do people phrase these planning requests ? so are we gon na masquerade the system as this as you said simple response system , `` i have one question i get one response `` , or should we allow for a certain level of complexity . and a i w think the data would be nicer if we get temporal references . professor d: well , so keith , what do you think ? grad b: well , um it seems that yeah , i mean , off the top of my head it kinda seems like you would probably just want , you know , richer data , more complex stuff going on , people trying to do more complex sets of things . i mean you know , if our goal is to really sort of be able to handle a whole bunch of different stuff , then throwing harder situations at people will get them to do more linguistic more interesting linguistic stuff . but i mean i 'm i 'm not really sure uh , because i do n't fully understand like what our choices are of ways to do this here yet . grad c: i mean w we have tested this and a y have you heard listen to the f first two or th as a matter of fact the second person is uh is was faced with exactly this kind of setup . grad b: i started to listen to one and it was just like , um , uh , sort of depressing . grad c: and grad b: i thought i 'd just sort of listen to the beginning part and the person was just sort of reading off her script or something . and . grad c: oh , ok . that was the first subject . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: first one was n't very good . grad b: yeah . grad c: yeah . grad b: so um , i grad c: um , it is already with this it got pretty with this setup and that particular subject it got pretty complex . undergrad e: although grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: maybe i suggest we make some fine tuning of these , get sort of run through ten or so subjects grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and then take a breather , and see whether we wan na make it more complex or not , depending on what what sort of results we 're getting . grad b: right . yeah . it in fact , um , i am just you know today , next couple days gon na start really diving into this data . i 've basically looked at one of the files you know one of these l y y y you gave me those dozens of files and i looked at one of them which was about ten sentences , found fifteen , twenty different construction types that we would have to look for and so on and like , `` alright , well , let 's start here . `` um . so i have n't really gone into the , you know looked at all of the stuff that 's going on . so i do n't really right , i mean , once i start doing that i 'll have more to say about this kind of thing . professor d: ok . grad c: and y and always professor d: but well th but you did say something important , which is that um you can probably keep yourself fairly well occupied uh with the simple cases for quite a while . grad b: yeah . professor d: although , obviously th so so that sa s does suggest that uh , now , i have looked at all the data , and it 's pre it 's actually at least to an amateur , quite redundant . grad b: yeah , yeah . professor d: that that it was it was very stylized , and quite a lot of people said more or less the same thing . grad b: i um i did sort of scan it at first and noticed that , and then looked in detail at one of them . professor d: yeah . grad b: but yeah , yeah i noticed that , too . professor d: so , we we we wan na do more than that . grad c: and with this we 're getting more . no question . professor d: ok . right . so grad c: uh w do we wan na get going beyond more , which is sort of the professor d: well , ok , so let 's let 's take let 's i i think your suggestion is good , which is we 'll do a b uh a batch . ok . and , uh , fey , how long is it gon na be till you have ten subjects ? couple days ? or thr f a a week ? or i do n't i do n't have a feel for th undergrad e: um i can yeah , i mean i s i think can probably schedule ten people , uh , whenever . professor d: well , it 's it 's up to you , i mean i j i uh e we do n't have any huge time pressure . it 's just when you have t undergrad e: how long will it be ? professor d: yeah . undergrad e: um i i would say maybe two weeks . professor d: oh , ok . so let 's do this . let 's plan next monday , ok , to have a review of what we have so far . grad c: this means audio , but professor d: and huh ? grad c: no transcriptions of course , yeah . professor d: no , we wo n't have the transcriptions , but what we should be able to do and i do n't know if , fey , if you will have time to do this , but it would be great if you could , um , not transcribe it all , but pick out uh , some stuff . i mean we could lis uh just sit here and listen to it all . are you gon na have the audio on the web site ? ok . grad c: until we reach the gigabyte thing and david johnson s ki kills me . and we 're gon na put it on the web site . yeah . professor d: oh , we could get i mean , you can buy another disk for two hundred dollars , right ? i mean it 's it 's not like ok . so , we 'll take care of david johnson . grad c: no , he uh , he he has been solving all our problems or is wonderful , professor d: ok . undergrad e: take care of him . professor d: ok . grad c: so s professor d: alright . so we 'll buy a disk . but anyway , so , um , if you if you can think of a way to uh , point us to th to interesting things , sort of as you 're doing this or or something uh , make your make notes or something that that this is , you know , something worth looking at . and other than that , yeah i guess we 'll just have to uh , listen although i guess it 's only ten minutes each , right ? roughly . undergrad e: well , i guess . i 'm not sure how long it 's actually going to take . grad c: the reading task is a lot shorter . that was cut by fifty percent . and the reading , nobody 's interested in that except for the speech people . professor d: right . no , we do n't care about that at all . grad c: so . it 's actually like five minutes dialogue . professor d: i b my guess is it 's gon na be ten . grad c: ten minutes is long . professor d: people i understand , but people people you know uh undergrad e: it feels like a long time grad c: yeah . undergrad e: but . grad c: it feels like forever when you 're doing it , professor d: yeah . grad c: but then it turns out to be three minutes and forty five seconds . professor d: yeah . grad b: yeah . professor d: could be . ok . i was thinking people would , you know , hesitate and whatever . whatever it is we 'll we 'll deal with it . grad c: yeah , it 's not and it 's fun . professor d: ok , so that 'll be that 'll be um on on the web page . grad c: ok . professor d: that 's great . um but anyway yeah , so i think it 's a good idea to start with the sort of relatively straight forward res just response system . and then if we want to uh get them to start doing uh multiple step planning with a whole bunch of things and then organize them an um tell them which things are near each other and you know , any of that stuff . uh you know , `` which things would you like to do tuesday morning ? `` grad c: yeah . professor d: so yeah i th that seems pretty straight forward . undergrad e: but were you saying that grad c: i need those back by the way . grad b: ok . professor d: ok . undergrad e: yeah . grad c: that 's for professor d: i 'm sorry , fey , what ? undergrad e: that w maybe one thing we should do is go through this list and sort of select things that are categories and then o offer only one member of that category ? professor d: that 's what i was suggesting for the first round , yeah . undergrad e: ok . grad b: so rather than having zoo and castle . undergrad e: and then , i mean , they could be alternate versions of the same if you wanted data on different constructions . professor d: they could , but i but i uh tha eh they c yeah , but uh but undergrad e: like one person gets the version with the zoo as a choice , and the other person gets the professor d: you could , but i but i i i think in the short run , grad c: and no , th the per the person do n't get it . i mean , this is why we did it , because when we gave them just three tasks for w part - a and three tasks for part - b a professor d: right . yeah . undergrad e: well no , they could still choose . they just would n't be able to choose both zoo and say , touring the castle . grad c: exactly . this is limiting the choices , but yeah . right . ok , sorry . but um i i think this approach will very well work , but the person was able to look at it and say `` ok , this is what i would actually do . `` undergrad e: yeah . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . grad c: ok . undergrad e: he was vicious . grad c: ok , we got ta we got ta disallow uh traveling to zoos and uh castles at the same time , sort of undergrad e: i mean there they are significantly different , but . grad c: but no , they 're i mean they 're sort of this is where tour becomes you know tourists maybe a bit different undergrad e: yeah , i guess so . grad c: and , um , these are just places where you you enter um , much like here . professor d: yeah . grad c: but we can uh professor d: yeah , in fact if y if y if you use the right verb for each in common , like at you know , `` attend a theater , symphony or opera `` is is a group , and `` tour the university , castle or zoo `` , grad c: mm - hmm yeah . professor d: all of these d do have this kind of `` tour `` um aspect about the way you would go to them . and uh , the movie theater is probably also uh e is a `` attend `` et cetera . grad c: attend , yeah . professor d: so it may turn out to be not so many different kinds of things , grad c: hmm , mm - hmm . professor d: and then , what one would expect is that that the sentence types would uh their responses would tend to be grouped according to the kind of activity , you would expect . grad b: mm - hmm . phd f: but i mean i it seem that um there is a difference between going to see something , and things like `` exchange money `` or `` dine out `` professor d: oh , absolutely . yeah . phd f: uh @ @ function , yeah . grad c: yeah , this is where yeah th the function stuff is definitely different and the getting information or g stuff yeah . ok . but this is open . so since people gon na still pick something , we we 're not gon na get any significant amount of redundancy . and for reasons , we do n't want it , really , in that sense . and um we would be ultimately more interested in getting all the possible ways of people asking , oh , for different things with or with a computer . and so if you can think of any other sort of high level tasks a tourist may do just always just m mail them to us and we 'll sneak them into the collection . we 're not gon na do much statistical stuff with it . professor d: we do n't have enough . grad c: no . but it seems like since we since we are getting towards uh subject uh fifty subjects and if we can keep it up um to a uh sort of five four - ish per week rate , we may even reach the one hundred before fey t takes off to chicago . undergrad e: that means that one hundred people have to be interested . grad b: good luck . undergrad e: yeah . professor d: well , um , these are all f people off campus s from campus so far , undergrad e: yeah . professor d: right ? undergrad e: yeah . professor d: so we yeah we do n't know how many we can get next door at the uh shelter for example . grad b: hmm . professor d: uh for ten bucks , probably quite a few . grad b: yeah . that 's right . professor d: yeah . so , alright , so let 's go let 's go back then , to the the chart with all the decisions and stuff , and see how we 're doing . grad c: yep . professor d: do do people think that , you know this is is gon na um cover what we need , or should we be thinking about more ? grad c: okay , in terms of decision nodes ? i mean , go - there is is a yes or no . professor d: yep . grad c: right ? grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: yep . grad c: i 'm also interested in th in this `` property `` uh line here , so if you look at sorry , look at that um , timing was um i have these three . do we need a final differentiation there ? now , later on the same tour , sometimes on the next tour . grad b: what 's this idea of `` next tour `` ? i mean grad c: it 's sort of next day , so you 're doing something now and you have planned to do these three four things , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and you can do something immediately , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: you could sort of tag it on to that tour grad b: or ok . grad c: or you can say this is something i would do s i wan na do sometime l in my life , basically . grad b: ok . ok . so so this tour is sort of just like th the idea of current s round of of touristness or whatever , professor d: right . grad b: ok . professor d: yeah . yeah , probably between stops back at the hotel . grad b: ok . got it . professor d: i mean if you if if you wanted precise about it , uh you know , grad b: got it . professor d: uh and i think that 's the way tourists do organize their lives . grad b: sure , sure , sure . professor d: you know , `` ok , we 'll go back to the hotel and then we 'll go off grad b: ok . professor d: and `` phd f: so all tours b a tour happens only within one day ? professor d: yes . grad b: ok . professor d: it phd f: so the next tour will be tomorrow ? professor d: right . for this . grad b: ok . just to be totally clear . ok . grad c: well , my visit to prague there were some nights where i never went back to the hotel , so whether that counts as a two - day tour or not we 'll have to think . grad b: you just spend the whole time at u fleku or something , phd f: yeah . professor d: i w we will we will not ask you more . grad b: ri undergrad e: right . phd f: right . undergrad e: that 's enough . grad c: i do n't know . what is the uh the the english co uh um cognate if you want , for `` sankt nimmerlandstag `` ? grad b: keine ahnung grad c: sort of `` we 'll do it on when you say on that d day it means it 'll never happen . professor d: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad c: do you have an expression ? probably you sh grad b: not that i know of actually . grad c: yeah , when hell yep , we 'll do it when hell freezes over . professor d: yeah . grad c: so maybe that should be another property in there . phd f: right . professor d: yeah . yeah . undergrad e: never . professor d: no . grad c: ok . um , the reason why why do we go there in the first place ie uh it 's either uh for sightseeing , for meeting people , for running errands , or doing business . entertainment is a good one in there , i think . i agree . grad b: so , business is supposed to uh , be sort of it like professional type stuff , right , or something like that ? grad c: yep . grad b: ok . um . grad c: i mean this w this is uh an old uh johno thing . he sort of had it in there . `` who is the the tour is the person ? `` so it might be a tourist , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: it might be a business man who 's using the system , who wants to sort of go to some grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , or or both . grad b: yeah . yeah , i mean like for example my my father is about to travel to prague . grad c: yep . grad b: he 'll be there for two weeks . he is going to uh he 's there to teach a course at the business school but he also is touring around and so he may have some mixture of these things . grad c: yep . professor d: mmm . grad c: yep . professor d: sure . right . grad c: he would phd f: what ab what do you have in mind in terms of um socializing ? what kind of activities ? grad c: eh , just meeting people , basically . `` i want to meet someone somewhere `` , which be puts a very heavy constraint on the `` eva `` phd f: oh grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , because then if you 're meeting somebody at the town hall , you 're not entering it usually , you 're just want to approach it . grad b: so i mean , does this capture , like , where do you put `` exchange money `` is an errand , right ? but what about uh grad c: yep . professor d: mm - hmm grad b: so , like `` go to a movie `` is now entertainment , `` dine out `` is phd f: socializing , i guess . professor d: no , i i well , i dunno . let let well , we 'll put it somewhere , grad b: so i mean right . professor d: but but um i would say that if `` dine out `` is a special c uh if you 're doing it for that purpose then it 's entertainment . grad b: yeah . professor d: and we 'll also as y as you 'll s further along we 'll get into business about `` well , you 're you know this is going over a meal time , do you wan na stop for a meal or pick up food or something ? `` grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's different . that 's that 's sort of part of th that 's not a destination reason , that 's sort of `` en passant , `` right . grad b: right . grad c: that goes with the `` energy depletion `` function , blech . grad b: yeah . professor d: right , yeah . grad c: ok , `` endpoint `` . grad b: `` tourist needs food , badly `` professor d: right . grad c: `` endpoint `` is pretty clear . um , `` mode `` , uh , i have found three , `` drive there `` , `` walk there `` uh or `` be driven `` , which means bus , taxi , bart . professor d: ok . grad c: yeah . yep . professor d: obviously taxis are very different than buses , but on the other hand the system does n't have any public transport this the planner system does n't have any public transport in it yet . grad c: so this granularity would suffice , i think w if we say the person probably , based on the utterance we on the situation we can conclude wants to drive there , walk there , or use some other form of transportation . grad b: h how much of heidelberg can you get around by public transport ? i mean in terms of the interesting bits . there 's lots of bits where you do n't really i 've only ev was there ten years ago , for a day , so i do n't remember , but . i mean , like the sort of the tourist - y bits professor d: mm - well , grad c: everywhere . grad b: is it like professor d: you ca n't get to the philosophers ' way very well , grad b: yeah . professor d: but , i mean there are hikes that you ca n't get to , but grad b: ok . grad c: yeah . professor d: but i think other things you can , if i remember right . grad a: so is like `` biking there `` part of like `` driving there `` , grad c: yeah , um we actually biking should be should be a separate point because we have a very strong bicycle planning component . grad a: or ? grad c: so . professor d: oh ! undergrad e: mmm g that 's good . grad c: um . professor d: put it in . grad c: bicycles c should be in there , but , will we have bic i mean is this realistic ? i mean grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , we can leave it out , i guess . grad b: yeah . grad c: we can we can sort of uh , drive grad b: i would i would lump it with `` walk `` because hills matter . grad c: yeah . grad b: right ? you know . things like that . grad c: yeah . professor d: ok . skateboards right , anyway . phd f: right . professor d: scooters , grad c: yep . professor d: right ? grad c: ok , `` length `` is um , you wan na get this over with as fast as possible , professor d: alright . grad c: you wan na use some part of what of the time you have . um , they can . but we should just make a decision whether we feel that they want to use some substantial or some fraction of their time . professor d: ye grad b: hmm . grad c: you know , they wan na do it so badly that they are willing to spend uh you know the necessary and plus time . and um and y you know , if we feel that they wan na do nothing but that thing then , you know , we should point out that to the planner , that they probably want to use all the time they have . so , stretch out that visit for that . professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: wow it seems like this would be really hard to guess . i mean , on the part of the system . it seems like it i mean you 're you 're talking about rather than having the user decide this you 're supposed t we 're supposed to figure it out ? professor d: w well grad c: th - the user can always s say it , but it 's just sort of we we hand over these parameters if we make if we have a feeling that they are important . grad b: overrider professor d: yeah . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and that we can actually infer them to a significant de degree , or we ask . professor d: and grad b: ok . professor d: and par yeah , and part of the system design is that if it looks to be important and you ca n't figure it out , then you ask . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: but hopefully you do n't ask you know , a all these things all the time . grad b: yeah . professor d: or eh so , y but there 's th but definitely a back - off position to asking . grad b: yeah . right . yeah . grad c: and if no no part of the system ever comes up with the idea that this could be important , no planner is ever gon na ask for it . grad b: yeah . grad c: y so and i like the idea that , you know , sort of jerry pushed this idea from the very beginning , that it 's part of the understanding business to sort of make a good question of what 's s sort of important in this general picture , what you need t grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: if you wan na simulate it , for example , what parameters would you need for the simulation ? and , timing , uh , uh , length would definitely be part of it , `` costs `` , `` little money , some money , lots of money `` ? professor d: mm - hmm . grad c: actually , maybe uh f { comment } uh so , f yeah , ok . hmm ? grad b: you could say `` some `` in there . phd f: i must say that thi this one looks a bit strange to me . um maybe it seems like appropriate if i go to las vegas . well but i decide k kind of how much money uh i 'm willing to lose . but a i as a tourist , i 'll just paying what 's what 's more or less is required . professor d: well , no . i think there are there 're different things where you have a ch choice , undergrad e: mmm . grad b: yeah . professor d: for example , uh this t interacts with `` do am i do oh are you willing to take a taxi ? `` grad b: dinner . professor d: or uh , you know , if if you 're going to the opera are you gon na l look for the best seats or the peanut gallery phd f: the best seat or or right . professor d: or , you know , grad b: ok . so professor d: whatever ? s so i think there are a variety of things in which um tour - tourists really do have different styles eating . another one , grad b: yeah . professor d: you know . undergrad e: right . phd f: right , that 's true . grad c: the what what my sort of sentiment is they 're well , i i once had to write a a a a charter , a carter for a a student organization . and they had wanted me to define what the quorum is going to be . and i looked at the other ones and they always said ten percent of the student body has to be present at their general meeting otherwise it 's not a and i wrote in there `` en - enough `` people have to be there . and it was hotly debated , but people agreed with me that everybody probably has a good feeling whether it was a farce , a joke , or whether there were enough people . grad b: yeah . grad c: and if you go to turkey , you will find when people go shopping , they will say `` how much cheese do you want ? `` and they say `` ah , enough . `` and the and the this used all over the place . because the person selling the cheese knows , you know , that person has two kids and you know , a husband that dislikes cheese , so this is enough . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and um so the middle part is always sort of the the golden way , right ? so you can s you can be really make it as cheap as possible , or you can say `` i want , er , you know , i do n't care `` grad b: money is no object . mm - hmm . grad c: money is no object , professor d: yeah . grad c: or you say `` i just want to spend enough `` . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: or the sufficient , or the the appropriate amount . grad b: yeah . grad c: but , then again , this may turn out to be insufficient for our purposes . but well , this is my first guess , grad b: i mean y yeah . grad c: in much the same way as how how d you know should the route be ? should it be the easiest route , even if it 's a b little bit longer ? grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: no steep inclinations ? go the normal way ? whatever that again means , er or do you does the person wan na rough it ? grad b: mm - hmm . i mean th so there 's a couple of different ways you can interpret these things right ? you know `` i want to go there and i do n't care if it 's really hard . `` or if you 're an extreme sport person , you know . `` i wan na go there and i insist on it being the hard way . `` professor d: right . grad b: right ? you know , so i assume we 're going for the first interpretation , undergrad e: right . grad b: right ? something like i 'll go th i mean i 'd li i dunno . it 's different from thing to professor d: no , i think he was going for the second one ar actually . grad b: yeah ? i i professor d: anyway , we 'll sort th yeah , we 'll sort that out . grad b: ok . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: absolutely . grad c: well , this is all sort of um , top of my head . grad b: yeah . grad c: no no research behind that . um `` object information `` , `` do i do i wan na know anything about that object ? `` is either true or false . and . if i care about it being open , accessible or not , i do n't think there 's any middle ground there . um , either i wan na know where it is or not , i wan na know about it 's history or not , or , um i wan na know about what it 's good for or not . maybe one could put scales in there , too . so i wan na know a l lot about it . professor d: yeah , now ob ok , i 'm sorry , go ahead , what were you gon na say ? grad c: one could put scales in there . so i wan na know a lot about the history , just a bit . professor d: yeah , right well y i w if we w right . so `` object `` becomes `` entity `` , right ? grad c: yep , that 's true . professor d: yeah , but we do n't have to do it now . grad c: yep . that was the wrong shortcut anyhow . professor d: and we think that 's it , interestingly enough , that um , you know , th or or or something very close to it is going to be uh going to be enough . and undergrad e: still wrong . grad c: yeah . grad b: ok . professor d: alright , so um so i think the order of things is that um , robert will clean this up a little bit , although it looks pretty good . and grad c: what , well this is the part that professor d: huh ? grad c: this is the part that needs the work . professor d: right . grad b: yeah . professor d: yeah , so right , so so , um in parallel , uh three things are going to happen . uh robert and eva and bhaskara are gon na actually build a belief - net that that , um , has cpt 's and , you know , tries to infer this from various kinds of information . and fey is going to start collecting data , and we 're gon na start thinking a about uh what constructions we want to elicit . and then w go it may iterate on uh , further data collection to elicit grad b: d do you mean do you mean eliciting particular constructions ? or do you mean like what kinds of things we want to get people talking about ? semantically speaking , eh ? professor d: well , yes . grad b: ok . professor d: both . uh , and though for us , constructions are primarily semantic , right ? grad b: right . sure . professor d: and and so uh grad b: i mean from my point of view i 'm i 'm trying to care about the syntax , so you know professor d: well that too , grad b: ok . professor d: but um you know if th if we in if we you know , make sure that we get them talking about temporal order . grad b: yeah . professor d: ok , that would be great and if th if they use prepositional phrases or subordinate clauses or whatever , grad b: mm - hmm . right . ok . professor d: um w you know , whatever form they use is fine . grad b: ok . professor d: but i i think that probably we 're gon na try to look at it as you know , s what semantic constructions d do we do we want them to uh do direc grad b: ok . professor d: you know , um , `` caused motion `` , i do n't know , something like that . grad b: ok . professor d: uh but , eh - uh this is actually a conversation you and i have to have about your thesis fantasies , and how all this fits into that . grad b: got it . yeah . uh yeah . ok . professor d: but uh grad c: well , i will tell you the german tourist data . grad b: ok . grad c: because i have not been able to dig out all the stuff out of the m ta thirty d v grad b: ok . grad c: um if you grad b: is that roughly the equivalent of of what i 've seen in english or is it grad c: no , not at all . grad b: ok . grad c: dialogues . smartkom grad b: ok . grad c: smartkom human . wizard of oz . grad b: ok . same ok , that . got it . like what what have i got now ? i mean i have uh what what i 'm loo what i those files that you sent me are the user side of some interaction with fey ? grad c: a little bit of data , i grad b: is that what it is ? or ? grad c: with nothing . grad b: just talking into a box and not hearing anything back . professor d: no , no . grad c: yep . grad b: ok . grad c: yep . some data i collected in a couple weeks for training recognizers and email way back when . grad b: ok . ok . grad c: nothing to write home about . grad b: ok . grad c: and um the see this this this uh ontology node is probably something that i will try to expand . once we have the full ontology api , what can we expect to get from the ontology ? and hopefully you can sort of also try to find out , you know , sooner or later in the course of the summer what we can expect to get from the discourse that might , you know or the grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: not the discourse , the utterance as it were , uh , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: right . grad c: in terms of uh professor d: right , but we 're not expecting keith to actually build a parser . grad b: right , right . grad c: no , no , no , no , no . professor d: ok . we are expecting johno to build a parser , grad c: uh , this is yes . grad b: by the end of the summer , too . professor d: but that 's a no . grad c: no . professor d: no . uh he 's g he 's hoping to do this for his masters ' thesis s by a year from now . grad c: but it 's sort of it 's grad b: right . hmm . still , pretty formidable actually . professor d: eh - absolutely . uh limited . i mean , you know , the idea is is , grad b: yeah . professor d: well , the hope is that the parser itself is , uh , pretty robust . but it 's not popular it 's only p only grad b: right , right . existence proof , you know . set up the infrastructure , professor d: right . it 's only popula grad b: yeah . professor d: right . grad b: um sometime , i have to talk to some subset of the people in this group , at least about um what sort of constructions i 'm looking for . i mean , you know obviously like just again , looking at this one uh thing , you know , i saw y things from sort of as general as argument structure constructions . oh , you know , i have to do verb phrase . i have to do uh uh unbounded dependencies , you know , which have a variety of constructions in uh uh instantiate that . on the other hand i have to have , you know , there 's particular uh , fixed expressions , or semi - fixed expressions like `` get `` plus path expression for , you know , `` how d ho how do i get there ? `` , professor d: mm - hmm . grad b: `` how do i get in ? `` , `` how do i get away ? `` professor d: right . grad b: and all that kind of stuff . um , so there 's a variety of sort of different sorts of constructions professor d: absolutely . grad b: and it you know it 's it 's sort of like anything goes . like professor d: ok , so this is i think we 're gon na mainly work on with george . grad b: ok . professor d: ok , and hi let me f th say what i think is is so the idea is uh first of all i misspoke when i said we thought you should do the constructions . cause apparently for a linguist that means to do completely and perfectly . so what i yeah , ok , so what what i meant was `` do a first cut at `` . grad b: er that 's what yeah , yeah . professor d: ok , because uh we do wan na get them r u perfectly but i think we 're gon na have to do a first cut at a lot of them to see how they interact . grad b: of course . right , exactly . now it w we talked about this before , right . and i i me it would it would be completely out of the question to really do more than , say , like , oh i do n't know , ten , over the summer , professor d: yeah . grad b: but uh , but you know obviously we need to get sort of a general view of what things look like , so yeah . professor d: right . so the idea is going to be to do sort of like nancy did in some of the er these papers where you do enough of them so you can go from top to bottom so you can do f you know , f f uh have a complete story ov of s of some piece of dialogue . grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: and that 's gon na be much more useful than having all of the clausal constructions and nothing else , or or or something like that . grad b: yeah . sure . yeah . professor d: so that the the trick is going to be t to take this and pick a some sort of lattice of constructions , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: so some lexical and some phrasal , and and , you know , grad b: mm - hmm . professor d: whatever you need in order to uh , be able to then , uh , by hand , you know , explain , some fraction of the utterances . grad b: mm - hmm . yeah . professor d: and so , exactly which ones will partly depend on your research interests and a bunch of other things . grad b: mm - hmm . sure . ok . but i mean in terms of the s th sort of level of uh of analysis , you know , these do n't necessarily have to be more complex than like the `` out of `` construction in the bcp paper where it 's just like , you know , half a page on each one or something . professor d: correct . oh yeah yeah . v a half a page is is what we 'd like . grad b: yeah . professor d: and if if there 's something that really requires a lot more than that then it does and we have to do it , grad b: yeah . professor d: but grad b: for the first cut , that should be fine , yeah . professor d: yeah . grad c: we could sit down and think of sort of the the ideal speaker utterances , grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: and i mean two or three that follow each other , so , where we can also sort of , once we have everything up and running , show the tremendous , insane inferencing capabilities of our system . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so , you know , as as the smartkom people have . this is sort of their standard demo dialogue , which is , you know , what the system survives and nothing but that . grad b: mm - hmm . mm - hmm . grad c: um , we could also sor sort of have the analogen of o our sample sentences , the ideal sentences where we have complete construction coverage and , sort of , they match nicely . grad b: mm - hmm . grad c: so the the `` how do i get to x ? `` , grad b: yeah . grad c: you know , that 's definitely gon na be uh , a major one . grad b: yeah . that 's about six times in this little one here , so uh , yeah . grad c: yep . professor d: right . grad c: `` where is x ? `` might be another one which is not too complicated . grad b: yeah . mm - hmm . grad c: and um `` tell me something about x . `` grad b: yeah . grad c: and hey , that 's that 's already covering eighty percent of the system 's functionality . professor d: ye - right , but it 's not covering eighty percent of the intellectual interest . grad b: yeah . grad c: no , we can w throw in an `` out of film `` construction if you want to , but professor d: no , no , no . well the th the thing is there 's a lot that needs to be done to get this right . grad c: ok . professor d: ok , i th we done ? grad c: i have one bit of news . professor d: good . grad c: um , the action planner guy has wrote has written a a p lengthy proposal on how he wants to do the action planning . professor d: good . grad c: and i responded to him , also rather lengthy , how he should do the action planning . and professor d: `` action planning `` meaning `` discourse modeling `` ? grad c: yes . and i tacked on a little paragraph about the fact that the whole world calls that module a dis disc dialogue manager , professor d: right . grad c: and would n't it make sense to do this here too ? professor d: right . grad c: and also rainer m malaka is going to be visiting us shortly , most likely in the beginning of june . professor d: uh - huh , i 'll be gone . grad c: yeah . he - he 's just in a conference somewhere and he is just swinging through town . professor d: sure , ok . grad c: and um m making me incapable of going to naacl , for which i had funding . but . no , no pittsburg this year . grad b: hmm . grad c: when is the uh santa barbara ? professor d: s grad c: who is going to ? uh should a lot of people . that 's something i will would sort of enjoy . professor d: probably should go . that was that 's one you should probably go to . grad c: yep . grad b: how much does it cost ? grad c: there 's grad b: i have n't planned to go . professor d: uh , probably we can uh pay for it . grad b: ok . professor d: um a student rate should n't be very high . so , if we all decide it 's a good idea for you to go then you 'll we 'll pay for it . grad b: right . sure . undergrad e: then you can go . professor d: i mean i i do n't have a feeling one way or the other at the moment , grad b: ok . professor d: but it probably is . ok , great . grad b: thanks .

the data collection that will provide relevant dialogues is moving along , with thirty subjects already lined up . they will be given a reading task , which will include some german proper names , and a series of tasks from the tourist domain to choose from . in order to get directions , they will then communicate with a computer system and a human operator , using a sketchy map as an aid . a different set of data are already available from the smartkom system and similar sources .

summarize the whole meeting . </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

project manager asked the team members give personal introductions respectively to get acquainted with each other , and then introduced a new remote control project . before discussing the product-related issues , the manager asked the members to get acquainted with the smartboards for further presentation and information sharing work by drawing in turns . after the drawing session , the manager reemphasized the program target and required the remote control to possess with a user-familiarized feature . other group members voiced out additional design aspects , including usability and lightness . finally , the team agreed on both the selling and the production price .

summarize the discussion about the target 's user-familiarized feature and several additional design aspects . </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the user interface asked what the project 's target was . in response , the project manager emphasized that the target was a tv remote control . then , the group members voiced out their envision of the product . the user interface suggested that the tv remote control should stick to what people are familiar with . at last , the user interface and industrial manager added usability and lightness as two other essential features of the product .

why did the user interface think that their project should stick to what people are familiar with when discussing the members ' envision of the product ? </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the user interface believed that changes , be them rational or revolutionary , once made , would be hindrances to customers ' usage .

summarize the discussion about the additional design aspects of the remote control . </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

as tv was becoming central in most homes , the user interface thought that the design of the remote control should cater to the needs of different kinds of customers , even including that of the disabled people . besides , the industrial manager thought that lightness is another essential feature of the design .

summarize the members ' acquaintance with the usage of the smartboards . </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

the manager introduced a new technical device , the smartboards , to all the team members in order to facilitate their presentation and information sharing work . then he asked the team to draw animals respectively to get acquainted with the device . each member chooses a different animal , embodying their opinions upon the product .

why did the user interface choose to draw dolphins during his acquainting process with the smartboards ? </s> project manager: okay , good morning . this is our first team meeting . user interface: good day . marketing: morning . industrial designer: morning . project manager: i 'll be your project manager for today , for this project . my name is mark will be giving this presentation for you to kick the project off . that 's my uh that 's the agenda for today . well , of course we 're new to each other , so i 'd like to get acquainted first . so let 's do that first , i mean let 's start with you , can you introduce yourself ? you 're our marketing expert . marketing: yes . um my name is dirk , dirk meinfeld . um i will be uh pr project the marketing expert . and i will see what the user wants and uh what we can do uh with the new produ project product . project manager: okay , excellent . and you are user interface user interface: nick broer , project manager: yeah . user interface: user interface designer . i 'm going to uh look at the technical design from the uh user point of view . project manager: excellent . okay . industrial designer: my name is xavier juergens , i 'm the industrial designer , and there are three main questions that i have to find an answer to today . first one is uh what happens inside the apparatus , second is what is uh the apparatus made of , marketing: hmm . industrial designer: and the third is what should it look like . project manager: what should it look like ? okay . marketing: hmm . project manager: oh , let 's kick it off . oh , there we go . so , our new project is about we need design a remote control for television set , so , which has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . i took this off our corporate website . i think well it sums up what we need to do . it 's we 're inspired by latest fashion , not only electronics , but also the latest trends in clothes and interior design . that 's why our product will always fit in your home . so apparently we need to um be very at um very open to what 's currently hot in the market . so that 's what you need to do to bring us the latest info and what people want . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: so so we put the fashion in electronics . so that 's what we need to go for . anyway , we 'll take this project in three steps , three pha uh three phase of design . first step will be the functional design . marketing: yeah . project manager: and that 's basically what we 're gon na do . everybody has uh a piece of individual work and a meeting afterwards , so we can share information about so i 'm gon na keep this short , since we had a technical problem . so skip through this . uh . okay . every meeting we everybody can present their uh their views and everything , so to help with these , you have we have the smartboards here . we can use a regular powerpoint presentation . i 'm supposed to give you an introduction on this doodling board , so it 's actually it 's very easy . like it says , very simple , you just take out the pen . like you see here , i 'll just take the take here . that 's it , you just put it on the board . you see a pen here . you go here , just like using a pen . you can just draw whatever you want . it 's like the eraser , can erase whatever you want . and so it will be easy just to illustrate your views , if you wan na change the format , you just either take out jus just like the pen , and whatever you want , your current colour , your line width , just to make the line bigger . so it should be really easy . marketing: okay . project manager: this is to take the just take a new slide and back again . we 're just gon na keep using this board all the time , so i think it will be it 's very clear for everyone , i suppose . so i 'll take this out . okay . we 'll use that later . anyway . yeah , just just just stuff that you wan na share , just put it in the in the project folder , like i put my presentation now . i 'll put the the minutes of every meeting , i 'll put them there too , so everybody can read up if they have to leave early or whatever . so next , been here . well , gon na give the electronic white-board uh a shot . so basic idea is we have a blank sheet . just try whatever you want , and like it says , draw your favourite animal . i think the creative genius should go first . user interface: the creative genius ? industrial designer: marketing: user interface: thank you very much . project manager: so , draw us your favourite animal . user interface: well , i 'm more into the technical aspects of drawing , industrial designer: user interface: so i 'm not really good at drawing animals , project manager: draw us a technical animal . user interface: but uh the animal which i oh . project manager: yeah , it 's still erasing . user interface: pen . marketing: user interface: uh format . else my animal will be like king-size . i pretty much like a dolphin , because of its uh its freedom basically . let 's see . a head . actually worked with this . it 's like uh it 's a very uh high-tech . industrial designer: marketing: user interface: bit low-responsive though . project manager: so that 's what we do n't want . user interface: prefer pen and paper . project manager: we want a high-responsive product . so it looks more like nuclear bomb . marketing: very nice dolphin . user interface: it does n't look like a nuclear bomb . industrial designer: project manager: user interface: this thing is n't doing what i 'm what i want . marketing: project manager: let 's go easy on it . user interface: so yeah , well it does look like a nuclear bomb . project manager: marketing: user interface: i 'll just finish up real soon , because i 'm marketing: user interface: so it does n't really look like a dolphin , project manager: anyway , user interface: but then again , this is all new for me . project manager: it should it it 's supposed to be a dolphin , you like the freedom that it that it represents . industrial designer: uh-huh . user interface: like the ocean , like swimming . do that in my spare time , so that 's basically an project manager: what do you like ? okay . well , user interface: now we can forget this ever happened . project manager: our marketing expert . show us an animal . marketing: um an animal . project manager: pick a pick a marketing: i like the elephant . project manager: pick a clean sheet . oh . take a clean sheet first . marketing: what ? yeah . um project manager: just press next . that 's it . marketing: oh yeah . oh , a blank . okay , next . free , i like the elephant . it 's big , it 's strong , so uh uh oh , it 's a little bit user interface: it 's not really that responsive , no . marketing: you have to hold it , right ? project manager: industrial designer: mm . marketing: hmm . project manager: marketing: it 's a beautiful animal . project manager: marketing: oh , you have to p press it pretty hard . with a smile on it , project manager: it 's a cute elephant . user interface: marketing: it 's very important . yeah . project manager: marketing: and uh not to forget its tail . oh . project manager: it 's a nice beard . marketing: yeah , it 's okay . yes . project manager: user interface: and you was making comments on my dolphin . project manager: marketing: i will beat the dolphin . no . project manager: okay , so it 's just a bee . marketing: yeah . project manager: so i suggest you make us the elephant in the market . the big and strong player in the market . this would be good . marketing: yeah . yeah . project manager: okay , excellent . on to the next one . industrial designer: okay . marketing: uh yeah . industrial designer: okay , you should press next . marketing: yeah . project manager: press next . yeah , it 's up there . industrial designer: okay . project manager: that 's it . industrial designer: okay , well the animal i 'd like to draw is a tiger . project manager: user interface: you picked a hard one , did n't you ? industrial designer: my drawing skills are really bad , so . marketing: experience with the tiger . project manager: marketing: what ? they are industrial designer: they are really bad , my drawing skills . project manager: marketing: okay uh-huh . project manager: sure looks smooth . marketing: oh . industrial designer: i 'm not sure how the legs should go , but project manager: industrial designer: uh these are stripes . user interface: got it . industrial designer: i 've picked this animal because it 's very fast . it is uh it knows exactly what it wants . uh it hardly ever wastes any resources . project manager: what does it want ? industrial designer: uh well , basically uh it hunts for prey , but it does it always in a very well-thought way . uh it knows exactly what it wants . it never kills an animal uh just for the killing , so it 's very efficient . and it tries to do everything as fast as possible . project manager: okay . industrial designer: and it always goes for uh security , in seeking uh uh a hide spot and uh and doing everything , marketing: mm . industrial designer: security , speed and efficiency is important . and i think uh those things we can use . project manager: i agree . industrial designer: marketing: okay . project manager: , i 'm supposed to draw the animal next . yay i introduce to the world the amazing ant . user interface: marketing: uh hard worker . project manager: great team-workers . user interface: industrial designer: yeah . marketing: yeah . project manager: do everything to uh really small , but together they 're really strong . so i 'm gon na give it a smiley face . industrial designer: oh . marketing: yeah , yeah . project manager: not sure where the p . just put 'em here . whatever . marketing: project manager: think it need shoes . so marketing: project manager: i 'm just too lazy to draw it all black , so that 's the coolest ant ever . user interface: you 've done this before , have n't you ? industrial designer: project manager: i love to draw ants . it 's my hobby . marketing: project manager: anyway nah . just i think it 's very representative what we drew , i guess . like you take just take your freedom and use a a trendy interface that you design for us . marketing: yeah . project manager: just yeah . you 're supposed to make i make it different from uh from what other people have , and just make it a little distinct . anyway . another beep to stop the meeting . see . warning . finish meeting now . uh put this down . examples . well i guess we have a little little time extra , but just a little quick discussion to to open open our work . so what do you guys think about the first idea is just very short . i 'll start with you . what are y what are your first ideas for the new product ? what user interface: well , i basically had a question . do uh are we going to introduce a multi remote control ? is it just the tv or do we want to in project manager: the project i got was just for a tv remote control . marketing: uh user interface: just for tv remote control . project manager: yeah , i guess so . marketing: yeah . user interface: okay . well , i was thinking about design remote control , with our uh motto and all . marketing: but user interface: uh thing to keep in mind is that we need to stick to what people are familiar with . marketing: yeah . user interface: no rational changes or whatever , 'cause it revolutionary changes , project manager: okay , so very intuitive design , i guess . user interface: yes . uh we might have to consider other design aspects of our product . so that was something i wanted to add , project manager: user interface: and perhaps some usability aspect . tv is becoming central in most homes . do we want people who are disabled in any way to uh , yeah , to be able to use it as well ? project manager: yeah , we want i suppose we want almost everyone to be using it . so i think i mean , really disabled people , yeah , might be a problem , but i think it 's a little take it into consideration . um yeah . i think we really need to cut the meeting short . you have anything you wan na share quickly ? industrial designer: hmm . marketing: uh . industrial designer: only one thing uh that has to be added according to me is uh the the material it is made of , it should be something light . user interface: yeah . industrial designer: that 's it speaks for itself , project manager: it should be light , okay . industrial designer: but some uh yeah . project manager: um , let 's see , marketing: yeah . project manager: where did i let 's skip that . oh , this is it . sorry , i skipped this sheet . marketing: selling price . project manager: what do we this quick what we 're going to selling price , twenty five euros . that 's for you . the production price , twelve and a half euros , approximately . industrial designer: okay . project manager: just go go for that . we 'll reach the uh reach that profit . industrial designer: okay . user interface: okay , well that 's not that much to work with . marketing: international . project manager: no , it 's not much to work on . i 'm sorry , i skipped it . anyways , that 's yeah , this is it . do you have anything you you came up with yet ? about uh marketing transfer , whatever ? marketing: um about what ? marketing ? project manager: marketing i 'm not sure what you what you came up with yet . you have anything to share ? or else we 'll cut the meeting just cut the meeting short marketing: um no , not really yet , project manager: since we 're supposed to stop . marketing: but i 've some ideas project manager: okay . marketing: and i will uh say it uh project manager: anyways , the the personal coach will give you the your p your personal assignments and everything . so we 'll just meet back in here thirty minutes . industrial designer: okay . marketing: okay . project manager: i 'm sure we have that . industrial designer: good luck everyone . project manager: yeah , thanks for attending . user interface: mm , good luck . marketing: project manager: i 'll see you back here in thirty minutes . marketing: okay . yes . industrial designer: { vocalsound }

firstly , he thought that dolphin represents freedom . besides , he loved the ocean a lot and swam a lot in his spare time .